1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fryed. Today's episode is one I 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: have thought about doing for really many years, and I 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: moved it up to the top of the list after 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: I heard a clip from the oral arguments in Trump 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: versus Barbara, That is the US Supreme Court case on 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: the question of whether Executive Order fourteen one point sixty 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: protecting the meaning and value of American citizenship is consistent 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: with the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which is the 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: part that reads, quote, all persons born or naturalized in 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: citizens of the United States and of the state wherein 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: they reside. So this Supreme Court case involves three families 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: whose children were born in the United States, but they 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: would not be considered citizens under this executive order because 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: of their parents' residency status. The parents include an asylum applicant, 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: someone who was on a student visa, and somebody who 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: was in the process of applying for permanent residency. So 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: during these oral arguments, Justice Sonya Sodamayor said to Solicitor 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: General John Sower, quote, when we ruled in Thinned that 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: Indians could not become citizens, the government then after began 23 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: to unnaturalize many Indians who had been sworn in as citizens. 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: She went on to ask whether the logic that Souer 25 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: was using in his arguments would lead to the same 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: thing happening again. So that quote from Sodomayor and the 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: idea that the US stripped people of their citizenship based 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: on their nation of origin, that might raise some questions 29 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: from people who are not familiar with this history. The 30 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: case that Sodamayor was referencing was United States versus Boggat 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: Singh Thinn. That was a case that hinged on what 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: it meant to be white. Boggat Singh Thinned was born 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: in Punjab, in the far northwest of British India on 34 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: October third, eighteen ninety two. This region was and is 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: predominantly sick, which some people who are white pronounced Sikh. 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: This is one of those words. It's a little tricky, 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: can sound different to different years. Finn's father was retired 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: from the British Indian Army and his mother died when 39 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: he was still just a small child. He was the 40 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: oldest of their three sons. Yeah, Holly and I just 41 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: had a conversation about the pronunciation of sick and one 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: of the things that when I was researching this podcast, 43 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: I listened to a video from someone from this part 44 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: of the world who was saying, it's not pronounced sick, 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: it's pronounced sick, and the two versions sound did it 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 1: exactly the same? To me? I could not detect a difference, 47 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: which is a real thing that happens based on the 48 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: phonemes we are exposed to in our lives. We are 49 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: confident there is a difference, we just can't discern it right. Correct, correct. 50 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: So find graduated from high school in nineteen oh eight 51 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: and went on from there to Colossa College, which was 52 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: established in eighteen ninety two by the leaders of the 53 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: Singh Saba movement. This movement developed after Britain defeated the 54 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: Sick Empire in eighteen forty nine and after Christian missionary 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: started arriving in this area in bigger numbers. Several Sick 56 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: leaders and aristocrats converted to Christianity. So this movement formed 57 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: to try to revive and preserve sick traditions and teachings, 58 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: and also to publish sick religious material and to provide 59 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: young people with an education. At some point during these years, 60 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: Thinn married woman named chin Kauer. He also decided that 61 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: he wanted to continue his education in the United States, 62 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: which meant leaving that wife behind, and we don't have 63 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: anything from her perspective about any of this at all. 64 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: Accounts of Finn's life have given an assortment of reasons 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: for his wanting to go to the US, including that 66 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: he wanted to become a lawyer and that he wanted 67 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: to help support his family. They had been well off, 68 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: but his father had become opposed to British colonial policy 69 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: and had been imprisoned and lost his military pension due 70 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: to his activities. Multiple sources also say that Finn wanted 71 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: to go to an American university because he had started 72 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: studying the works of Transcendentalist writers and people who were 73 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: influenced by the Transcendentalists like Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thereau, 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: and Walt Whitman. Transcendentalism drew from multiple influences including German romance, philosophy, neoplatonism, 75 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: and Asian religious and spiritual traditions, so there were parallels 76 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: between the Transcendentalists and Finn's own religious and philosophical thought. 77 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: Finn left Punjab for Manila in nineteen twelve. At the time, 78 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: the Philippines was a US territory, and Finn was there 79 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: for about nine months. He earned money by working as 80 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: an interpreter in court cases involving people from India, and 81 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: he eventually made friends with a US immigration officer who 82 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: helped him get to the United States. He was admitted 83 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: at the Port of Seattle on July fourth, nineteen thirteen, 84 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: when he was twenty years old. From there, he went 85 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: to Oregon, where he worked at a lumber mill and 86 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: earned enough money to enroll at the University of California 87 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: at Berkeley. Finn derived in the United States at a 88 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: time when immigration from South Asia was increasing, but the 89 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: number of South Asian immigrants in the US was still 90 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: really relatively small. Between nineteen ten and nineteen thirty two, 91 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: a little more than eight thousand people from South Asia 92 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: arrived in the United States. Some of them, like Thinned, 93 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: were educated and they wanted to go to school. Others 94 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: were merchants or skilled laborers, but Most of them did 95 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: manual labor or farm work. Somewhere between fifteen and twenty 96 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: percent of the workers at the mill where Thinned worked 97 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: were from India. From the South Asian perspective, people were 98 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: typically immigrating to the United States to pursue educational or 99 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: business opportunities, to try to earn more money to support 100 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: their families, or to escape civil unrest, persecution, or oppression 101 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: from British colonial authorities. This included a lot of independence activists. 102 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: From the US perspective, the farm workers and laborers in particular, 103 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: were filling a need for cheap workers on the West 104 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: Coast after the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act of 105 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty two and other laws that were districted immigration 106 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: from East Asia. We have talked about the Chinese Exclusion 107 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: Act in previous episodes, been a number of them. Very briefly. 108 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: After the Mexican American War ended in eighteen forty eight, 109 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: the US took possession of a huge amount of land 110 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: in western North America. The country needed laborers in this 111 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: newly acquired territory and to help build the Transcontinental Railroad, 112 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: and at first the government encouraged Chinese workers to come 113 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: to the United States. The population of Chinese nationals in 114 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: the US grew from four in eighteen forty to thirty 115 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: five thousand in eighteen sixty, but white people in the 116 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: western part of the United States especially saw this as 117 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: an invasion, so Chinese immigrants faced racism, hostility, and violence, 118 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: including from state governments, and the federal government eventually restricted 119 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: and then banned immigration from China. Immigrants from India faced 120 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: a very similar cycle, including being described as an invasion. 121 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: Incendiary newspaper headlines used the exact same kind of rhetoric 122 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: that they did with Chinese immigrants, invoking the idea of 123 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: a so called brown peril rather than the yellow peril 124 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: that the Chinese immigration had been described as. White Americans 125 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: described everyone from India as Hindu, regardless of what their 126 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: religion was. Most like thinned were sick men from Punjab, 127 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: so there were also a lot of derogatory depictions that 128 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: exaggerated the beards and the turbines that they wore as 129 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: an article of their faith. This was also happening in Canada. 130 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: Canada's cracked down on immigration from Asia included a nineteen 131 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,239 Speaker 1: oh eight amendment to its Immigration Act. That amendment required 132 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: immigrants to make a continuous journey to Canada from the 133 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: country they were natives or citizens of. This primarily affected 134 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: immigrants from India and Japan, since getting to Canada from 135 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: either of those places required people to stop in other countries. 136 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: This was by design. They targeted it that way to 137 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: weed out people from India and Japan. Bagatsingh Thinn's brother, 138 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: Jagatsingh Thinned, tried to enter Canada via Hong Kong aboard 139 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: a ship called the Koma Gata Marou, which had been 140 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: chartered in an attempt to challenge this law. Its passengers 141 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: were from multiple Asian countries, including British India. When the 142 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: Koma Gata Meru arrived in Vancouver in nineteen fourteen, only 143 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: about twenty people on board were allowed to disembark. There 144 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: were mostly people who were returning to Canada after having 145 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: been abroad. The rest of the passengers were stranded on 146 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: the ship while court cases were playing out. This whole 147 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: thing took about two months, with conditions on the ship 148 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: getting worse the longer they were there. The Koma Gata 149 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: Maru set sail again on July twenty third, nineteen fourteen, 150 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: after Canadian court ruled against its passengers. This became entangled 151 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: with World War One, which officially started a few days later. 152 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: Nearly one point four million Indian men served in the 153 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: British Army during World War One, but within the Indian 154 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: Independence movement, people had a range of views on the 155 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: war and on weather to serve. Some saw cooperation with 156 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: British authorities as a way to gain political power, and 157 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: others saw Germany as an ally because Germany was Britain's enemy. 158 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: The Gadar Party was an anti colonial movement established by 159 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: Indian immigrants to North America in nineteen thirteen, and it 160 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: took the latter view. When the war started. Gadar Party 161 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: leaders called on people in India to rise up against 162 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: the British and for Indians in North America to go 163 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: back to India to fight so. When the Koma Goat 164 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: Deamaru arrived back in India, the British officials thought its 165 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: passengers were a potential threat. After they disembarked at the 166 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: port of Budge, Budge, authorities tried to force them to 167 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: board a train. When people resisted doing this, soldiers fired 168 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: on the crowd and at least twenty people were killed. 169 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: Sin's brother survived this and returned to the village where 170 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: they had grown up. In two thousand and eight, the 171 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: province of British Columbia apologized for its role in this incident, 172 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau apologized on behalf of the 173 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: Canadian government. In twenty sixteen. A participation in the Gudar 174 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,239 Speaker 1: movement surged after the Komagatamuru incident, and then had connections 175 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: to that movement. He visited Gadar activists who were convicted 176 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: of conspiracy in San Francisco in nineteen eighteen. They asked 177 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: him to take on a leadership position in the movement, 178 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: and he did, but he left after becoming disillusioned at 179 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: the amount of infighting that was going on among the 180 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: other leaders. The British Security Service or mi I five 181 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: started monitoring him and labeled him a dangerous extremist. Although 182 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: his official leadership in the movement seems to have been brief, 183 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: he was a vocal advocate for Indian independence for the 184 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: rest of his life up until that independence actually was achieved. 185 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: Find however, did not try to ally with Germany. He 186 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: volunteered to join the US Army in nineteen eighteen. He 187 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: was inducted on July twenty second of that year and 188 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: served in the one hundred and sixty six Deep Obrigade 189 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: at Camp Lewis, Washington. Find was one of the first 190 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: six to serve in the US Army while keeping his 191 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: hair uncut and covered with a turbane and keeping his beard. 192 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: Finn's time in the Army only lasted for a few 193 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: months because the war ended. After that his unit was demobilized. 194 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: He was honorably discharged on December sixteenth, nineteen eighteen. A 195 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: lot of write ups about him say that he attained 196 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: the rank of sergeant or acting sergeant, but according to 197 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: his military records, he was a private. The first time 198 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: Bagot singh Thin was naturalized as a US citizen, he 199 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: was in his army uniform. We'll have more after we 200 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: pause for a sponsor break. In nineteen seventeen, Bogotzyngthened had 201 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: applied for US citizenship. He was naturalized in the state 202 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: of Washington on December ninth, nineteen eighteen. He was still 203 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: serving in the Army at that point, and he took 204 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: his oath while wearing his uniform, and then four days later, 205 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: immigration official Werner Tomlinson ordered that then citizenship be revoked 206 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: on the grounds that he was not a quote free 207 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: white person. So we should take a moment to talk 208 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: about who could become a US citizen. At this point, 209 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: when the United States first established itself as a nation, 210 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: there weren't really any limits on immigration. That started to 211 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: change in the late nineteenth century, with restrictions on immigration 212 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: from China culminating in the aforementioned Chinese Exclusion Act. Other 213 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: immigration restrictions followed from there, including the creation of the 214 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Asiatic Bard Zone in nineteen seventeen, which banned immigration from 215 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: most of Western, Southern, and Southeast Asia. But even when 216 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: there hadn't been any limits on who could immigrate to 217 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: the US, there had been limits on who could become 218 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: a citizen. The first US Congress passed the nation's first 219 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: Naturalization Act in seventeen ninety, which stated that quote any 220 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: alien other than an alien enemy, being a free white 221 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: person who shall have resided within the limits and under 222 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of 223 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof, 224 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: for the next eighty years, only white people could become 225 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: US citizens, and later laws continued to reference free white persons. Then, 226 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: after the US Civil War, the Fourteenth Amendment to the 227 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: Constitution granted citizenship to anyone born in the United States 228 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. That erased any possible 229 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: questions about whether the descendants of enslaved Africans born in 230 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: the US were citizens. The Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 231 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight, and two years later, Congress amended existing 232 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: naturalization laws to align with the spirit of the fourteenth Amendment, 233 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: specifying that quote naturalization laws are hereby extended to aliens 234 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: of African nativity and to persons of African descent. So 235 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: aliens of African nativity and persons of African descent was 236 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: a more concrete description than white person, which had no 237 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: formal official definition, and this led to issues as more 238 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: people arrived in the United States from places other than 239 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: Europe and Africa. People from other parts of the world 240 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: who tried to become citizens generally described themselves as white, 241 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: both because they didn't have documented African ancestry and because 242 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: it was obvious that people of African descent were relegated 243 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: to second class citizenship in the US. Often this wasn't 244 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: just a matter of filling in a blank with a color. 245 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: A lot of Asian applicants for citizenship, including Thinn and 246 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: his attorney, also leaned on racist stereotypes to differentiate themselves 247 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: from black people and align themselves with this idea of white. 248 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: For a while, state courts had the authority to handle naturalizations, 249 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: and state officials made judgment calls about whether applicants could 250 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: be considered white. This led to inconsistencies about whose applications 251 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: were approved and whose were or not. All of this 252 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: factored into the passage of the Basic Naturalization Act of 253 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: nineteen oh six. Among other things, this act made the 254 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: federal Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization responsible for everything related 255 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: to naturalization. So if that took it out of the 256 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: hands of state courts, immigration officials all around the country 257 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: started asking the Bureau to create policies that would clearly 258 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: define who could and could not be naturalized. Advocacy groups 259 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: also started trying to get different nationalities and ethnic groups 260 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: included in any policies that might be drafted to define 261 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: what white meant. But some policymakers and officials thought these 262 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: questions really needed to be settled by the courts, not 263 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: created by a government Bureau so to return to bogatsingh thinned. 264 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: When he applied for citizenship in nineteen seventeen, his declaration 265 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: of intention listed his color as white, with a dark complexion, 266 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: dark brown hair, and brown eyes. He also listed his 267 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: color as white when applying for the second time from 268 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: the state of Oregon. Werner Tomlinson objected to that application 269 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: as well, but then on November eighteenth, nineteen twenty, Federal 270 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: District Court Judge Charles Wolverton dismissed the government's filing that 271 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: denied Finn's eligibility for citizenship. Wolverton noted that there were 272 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: some reasons to question whether Finn was suitable for US citizenship, 273 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: including his connections to the Gadar Party and to the 274 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: men who had been convicted of conspiracy in San Francisco. 275 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: He also noted that it was true that Finn advocated 276 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: for India to be freed of British rule, but he 277 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: pointed out that find did not advocate for an armed 278 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: revolution for that purpose. Wolverton described Finn as a veteran 279 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: who had been honorably discharged and had excellent care and 280 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: quote a genuine affection for the Constitution, laws, customs, and 281 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: privileges of this country. The United States appealed Wolverton's decision, 282 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: and ultimately this case made its way to the Supreme Court. 283 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court had already heard a case on who 284 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: could be classified as a white person, that was Ozawa 285 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: versus United States in nineteen twenty two, just a few 286 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: months before they heard Sinn's case to cow. Ozawa had 287 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: been born in Japan, but spent most of his life 288 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: in Hawaii, which the United States annexed in eighteen ninety eight. 289 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: He had graduated from high school in Berkeley, California, and 290 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: attended the University of California. He was a Christian, and 291 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: he spoke English, and he and his wife had raised 292 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: their children to speak only English. Counting his time in 293 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: the territory of Hawaii, he had lived in the United 294 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: States for twenty years when he applied for citizenship, so 295 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: Ozawa used all of this, and the actual color of 296 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: his skin to argue that he was white. His attorney 297 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: also argued that the original framers of the seventeen ninety 298 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: immigration law had included the words free white person quote 299 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: for the sole purpose of excluding the black or African 300 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: race and the Indians than inhabiting this country. But the 301 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: Supreme Court countered that white person was not meant to 302 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: exclude everyone who was not African or Indigenous. It was 303 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: meant to include only white people, and that white could 304 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: not be determined only by skin color. Instead, the Court 305 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: ruled that the words white person indicated quote only a 306 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: person of what is popularly known as the Caucasian race. 307 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: A Japanese born in Japan, being clearly not Caucasian, cannot 308 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 1: be made a citizen of the United States. There had 309 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: also been some lower court rulings that had used similar 310 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: judgments hinji on the term Caucasian. So the racial science 311 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: of this era imagined most of humanity as belonging to 312 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: one of three races, and those were Caucazoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. 313 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: People from Japan were classified as Mongoloid, but people from 314 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: Northwest India were classified as Caucasian. This was all rooted 315 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: in the idea that Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit, which were 316 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: the oldest known languages at the time, all came from 317 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: a common source, and centuries ago, light skinned Arians who 318 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: spoke this common source language had settled in what is 319 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: now northern India, bringing that language with them. By the 320 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: mid nineteenth century, the term Aryan was associated with the 321 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: white race and was becoming part of the idea of 322 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: white racial superiority. It would go on, of course, to 323 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: become tightly connected with white supremacy and Nazi ideology, even 324 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: as the scientific community moved away from the idea of 325 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: air as a race. So with this idea of racial 326 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: categorizations in mind, the Court's decision in Ozawa versus the 327 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: United States made Finn's cases actually seem promising. The court 328 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: said only Caucasians could be citizens, and the science of 329 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: the time said that Finn was Caucasian. Finn's attorney, Sakaram Pandit, 330 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: had emigrated to the United States from India and had 331 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: become a citizen after successfully arguing that he was white 332 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: under these same definitions. Documents from Thinn's Supreme Court case 333 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: describe him as quote high caste Hindu stock born in Punjab, 334 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: one of the extreme northwestern districts of India, and classified 335 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: by certain scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race. 336 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: As we said earlier, find was sick not Hindu, but 337 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: in the US people from India, as we mentioned earlier, 338 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: were called Hindu regardless of religion. The idea that Find 339 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: was high caste is kind of complicated overall. The idea 340 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: of caste is more specifically Hindu than broadly Indian, and 341 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: it has nuances that really aren't reflected in most writing 342 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: about it from outside of India. The idea of caste 343 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: is repudiated within Sikhism, but at the same time, a 344 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: lot of six living in India have a kind of 345 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: complex relationship with it. As the educated son of a 346 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: military officer, Find was part of his community's higher class 347 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: in India. This was part of the argument that Finn 348 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: was suitable for US citizenship because, like the white population 349 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: of the United States, he was in the more elite 350 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: and prestigious group in the place that he had come from. 351 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: In spite of its earlier decision in Ozawa versus United States, 352 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: on December tenth, nineteen twenty three, the Supreme Court unanimously 353 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: ruled against bogatsingh Thinned. The court's opinion was authored by 354 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: Justice George Sutherland, who was a naturalized British immigrant. He wrote, quote, 355 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: what we now hold is that the words free white 356 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: persons are words of common speech to be interpreted in 357 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: accordance with the understanding of the common man synonymous with 358 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: the word Caucasian, only as that word is popularly understood. 359 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: Sutherland went on to say, quote, the term race is 360 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: one which, for the practical purposes of the statute, must 361 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: be applied to a group of living persons now possessing 362 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: in common the requisite characteristics, not to groups of persons 363 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: who are supposed to be or really are descended from 364 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: some remote common ancestor, but who, whether they both resemble 365 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: him to a greater or less extent, have at any rate, 366 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: ceased altogether to resemble one another. It may be true 367 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: that the blonde Scandinavian and the brown Hindu have a 368 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: common ancestor in the dim reaches of antiquity, But the 369 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: average man knows perfectly well that there are unmistakable and 370 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: profound differences between them today. And it is not impossible 371 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: if that common ancestor could be materialized in the flesh, 372 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: we should discover that he was himself sufficiently differentiated from 373 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: both of his descendants to preclude his racial classification with either. 374 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: In other words, this whole ruling states that Sinn might 375 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: be Caucasian, but he wasn't white. He was something different 376 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: from white. People and being white was what mattered. Consequently, 377 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: he could not become a US citizen. We will talk 378 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: about what happened after the Court issued this decision after 379 00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. The Supreme Court's ruling that Bagatsingh Thint 380 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: was not eligible for citizenship on the grounds that he 381 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: was not white did not apply only to him. It 382 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: applied to other South Asians whose applications were in process 383 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: or who might try to apply after this, and it 384 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: also applied to other South Asians who had already been 385 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: naturalized as citizens. After the Court's decision, the United States 386 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: started revoking the citizenship of at least sixty five South 387 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: Asians who had already been naturalized. The official documentation rescinding 388 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: Thinn's citizenship arrived in nineteen twenty six. Under US law, 389 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: to become a naturalized citizen, people had to renounce their 390 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: allegiance to quote any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, 391 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: and particularly by name to the prince potentate's or sovereignty 392 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: of which the alien may be at the time a 393 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: citizen or subject. Immigrants from India, for example, had to 394 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: renounce their allegiance to the British Crown, so This decision 395 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: essentially rendered them stateless. They could not become US citizens 396 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: and also could not get a passport allowing them to 397 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: go elsewhere. Many had left India because they were being 398 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: persecuted for their advocacy for independence from Britain, or they 399 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: were facing other political or religious persecution. Returning to India 400 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: was not an option, even if they had been able 401 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: to get the paperwork to do so. This decision also 402 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: put Indian immigrants into the category of aliens ineligible for 403 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: citizenship and under alien land laws that states had started 404 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: passing in the nineteen teens, aliens who were ineligible for 405 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: citizenship could not own property. California passed the first of 406 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: the laws in nineteen thirteen. The vast majority of immigrants 407 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: from India were living in West coast states that had 408 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: these laws, so people lost their homes and their businesses 409 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: in addition to their citizenship. One man, Vaishna Dasbagai, was 410 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: wealthy and had come to the US with all of 411 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: his money to start a business. After his citizenship was revoked, 412 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: he had to turn over his business to a white man, 413 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: and he had no way to get a passport to 414 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: visit family who were still living in India. He took 415 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: his own life because of all of this in nineteen 416 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: twenty eight. Under the Expatriation Act of nineteen oh seven, quote, 417 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: any American woman who marries a foreigner shall take the 418 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: nationality of her husband. In nineteen twenty, this law was 419 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: amended to apply only to women who married aliens not 420 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: eligible for citizenship. Tarak Nath Das had immigrated from in 421 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: India and become a US citizen in nineteen fourteen, and 422 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: then he had married a US citizen named Mary Kating 423 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: Morse in nineteen twenty when his citizenship was revoked after 424 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: this court decision, she lost her citizenship as well. Finn's attorney, 425 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: Sakuram Pandit, was one of the people who fought attempts 426 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: to strip him of citizenship in court. His arguments were 427 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: not based on whether he was white or whether he 428 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: was eligible to become a citizen. They focused on legal 429 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: details surrounding the revocation and the court cases themselves. The 430 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: Ninth Circuit Court's decision in favor of Pandit stated that 431 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had previously found a judgment granting a 432 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: certificate of naturalization to be a final judgment whether that 433 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: judgment was correct, didn't affect its finality. After this, the 434 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: US stopped pursuing the denaturalization of people from India, but 435 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: the majority of people this applied to had already lost 436 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: their citizen ship. The descriptions of his arguments here are 437 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: kind of vague because it's all very lawyer talk, right. 438 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: A lot of the court cases that we talk about 439 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: there is a like lay person's explanation that I'm able 440 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: to find pretty easily, But this one was like all 441 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: very dense legal stuff, and I feel like, ask a 442 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: lawyer friend. There's a finite number of times I've been 443 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: intrude on the lawyer friends to answer law questions about 444 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: a podcast. So to continue this ruling in the United 445 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: States versus bagatsingh find also became a part of ongoing 446 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: efforts to have other nationalities and ethnicities classed as non 447 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: white and barred from citizenship. For example, Mexican nationals who 448 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: had remained in the territory that the United States acquired 449 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: after the Mexican American War were supposed to become full 450 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: citizens under the eighteen forty eight Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, 451 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: but a lot of those same people had at least 452 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: some amount of indigenous ancestry, and the treaty used the 453 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: term Mexican, not Indian or indigenous. The treaty also did 454 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: not say anything to suggest that Mexicans were considered white. 455 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: Immigration to the United States was increasing in the early 456 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: twentieth century, and these new arrivals were not covered under 457 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: the terms of that treaty. The US government's inconsistency and 458 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: whether it considered Mexicans to be white is something else 459 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: that we have talked about on the show before, including 460 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: in our episode on Hernandez versus Texas In twenty seventeen. 461 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court did not hear any cases on whether 462 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: Mexicans were white in the context of the thinned ruling, 463 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: but nativist and eugenicist groups used this ruling as evidence, 464 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: as they did things like lobbying their ledgen slaters and 465 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: filing complaints with the Bureau of Emigration and Naturalization. As 466 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: for Bagatsingh Thinn's life after this, Shortly after losing his 467 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court case on December twenty second, nineteen twenty three, 468 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: he married Annez Marie Pierre Bulin. Find claimed to be 469 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: a widower, but his first wife, Chhin Kauer was still 470 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: alive in India. She apparently went to live with her 471 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: family and helped raise her brother's children, and Finn sent 472 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: her money from time to time until she died when 473 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: she was in her fifties. We really don't know anything 474 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: about all of this from her point of view. We 475 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: also don't know if Bulin and Finn understood that Bulin 476 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: would lose her citizenship in the US if Thinn's was revoked. 477 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: It's possible they were hoping the revocation would never actually happen, 478 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: or that the court decision would be overturned somehow. Initially, 479 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: find and Bulin described themselves as soulmates. Mullin was a 480 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: New Thought practitioner. That's a metaphysical and religious movement that 481 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: has some inspirations in both Transcendentalism and Asian religion. But 482 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: it's like it's tricky to pin down an exact definition 483 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: because there is a lot of variety in the specific 484 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: beliefs of different New Thought groups. They were married by 485 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: Pastor Albert Greer of the New Thought Church in Spokane, Washington. 486 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,719 Speaker 1: Around the same time, find also started working as an 487 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: itinerant spiritual teacher and advisor, which is one of the 488 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: ways that Indian immigrants who were stripped at their citizenship 489 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: and property were able to earn some money. Like the 490 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: New Thought movement, Finn's lectures and teachings drew from lots 491 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: of influences, including sick, religious and philosophical teachings, and the 492 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: works of the Transcendentalists. His tours often included lectures on 493 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: religious and spiritual topics in the mornings and afternoons, and 494 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: a workshop on breathing techniques in between them. He took 495 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: donations from his audiences, which he framed as love offerings. 496 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: This has a lot of layers and we're not really 497 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: getting into them like that. One of the reasons this 498 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: was a potential way to make a living for Indian immigrants, 499 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: particularly sick immigrants, was that they were exoticized by the 500 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: communities that they visited, particularly by women. Finn said that 501 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: he earned a PhD or a Doctor of Divinity, and 502 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: in some counts it said that he earned that in 503 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: Lahore before leaving India, and in others it said that 504 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: it was from the University of California at Berkeley. There's 505 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: actually no documentation of his earning a doctoral degree, but 506 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: eventually he was known to his students as doctor g 507 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: Finn's marriage to Bulin did not last long. They separated 508 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty four, with Finn alleging that Bulin was 509 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: having an affair with another spiritual teacher, who he sued 510 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: at one point for alienation of affection, and Bulin alleging 511 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: that Finn was physically and mentally cruel to her. Their 512 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: divorce was final in nineteen twenty seven, and at that 513 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: time Finn said they were still soulmates and that he 514 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: would never remarry. He was ordained as a minister at 515 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: a sick temple in Stockton, California, in nineteen thirty two. 516 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty five, Congress passed the Alien Veteran Naturalization Act, 517 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: which allowed military veterans from World War One to be 518 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: granted US citizenship even if they were not considered white. 519 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: Thinned applied for citizenship in New York, listing his race 520 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: as Indo Aryan. He was naturalized again on March second, 521 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six, and he remained a US citizen for 522 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. Finn married for a third 523 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: time in nineteen forty to a woman named Vivian Davies. 524 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: Vivian had a daughter named Rosalind known as Roz from 525 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: a previous marriage, and then she and Finn had a 526 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: son together named David. In nineteen forty one, work as 527 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: a spiritual teacher led to him being arrested and imprisoned 528 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: in Omaha, Nebraska, under an anti fortune telling law in 529 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two, spiritualist ministers were required to register with 530 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: the city, and Bend refused to do that because he 531 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: was not a spiritualist minister. Because he didn't have this 532 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: registration that they wanted, he was arrested and fined and 533 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: sentenced to ninety days in jail. While he was imprisoned, 534 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: his turban was taken from him, and he was given 535 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: Beloney sandwiches to eat, even though he was a vegetarian. 536 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: News coverage of all of this made him sound really 537 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: paranoid and sort of obsessed with the idea that the 538 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: British were spying on him, even though British intelligence had 539 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: actually classified him as an extremist and his advocacy for 540 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,919 Speaker 1: Indian independence had come up repeatedly in court. So they're 541 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: sort of making it sound like he was not in 542 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: his right mind when the things he was spoke were 543 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: reflecting reality. Eventually, friends got him registered as a sick 544 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: minister with the city of Omaha and he was released. 545 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: India became independent from British rule on August fifteenth, nineteen 546 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: forty seven. Under the Indian Independence Act. What had been 547 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: British India became two countries, India, which would be predominantly Hindu, 548 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: and Pakistan, which would be predominantly Muslim. The boundary between 549 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: these two nations went through the provinces of Bengal and Punjab, 550 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: including dividing the predominantly sick region of Punjab where Bagatsingh 551 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: Thind was from in two This partitioning led to a 552 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: massive human rights disaster as people tried to get from 553 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: one side of this newly created border to the other, 554 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: and estimated two million people were killed, some of them 555 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: in massacres. This is definitely its own topic. One of 556 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: our colleagues, Neha Ads, covered it as a ten part 557 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: podcast asked called Partition in twenty twenty two. In nineteen 558 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: sixty three, Thind made a trip back to India with 559 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: his wife, where they were guests in the home of 560 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: President Djuarhalal Nerhu. They also visited the village where Thinn 561 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: had been raised His first wife had died about ten 562 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: years before, so she was no longer there when they went. 563 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: Over the course of his life, find wrote fifteen books 564 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: on religion and spirituality. He also continued to advocate for 565 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: Indian independence and to advocate for the rights of Indian 566 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: immigrants to the United States, including students. In nineteen sixty seven, 567 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: the Gaedar Party in California described him as having done 568 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: more for India than any other Indian in the United States. 569 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: He died about a month later, on September fifteenth, nineteen 570 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: sixty seven, at the age of seventy four. By that point, 571 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 1: US emigration law was very different from when Thinned first 572 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: moved to the US and when his case was heard 573 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. The Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed 574 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty three during World War II. China was 575 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: allied with the United States during the war, and among 576 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: other things, Japan was using the Chinese Exclusion Act in 577 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: anti American propaganda. In nineteen forty six, Congress passed the 578 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: Loose Sellar Act, which applied to two other World War 579 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: II allies. Those were the Philippines, which became independent from 580 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: the US that same month, and India. This act specified 581 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: a quota of one hundred immigrants from each of those 582 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: two nations per year, and it also granted naturalization rights 583 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: to Indians and Filipinos. The US eventually moved away from 584 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: restricting citizenship only to white people and Africans and people 585 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: of African descent. The Immigration and Nationality Act of nineteen 586 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: fifty two abolished the racial restrictions for citizenship that had 587 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: gone back to seventeen ninety and eighteen seventy. Then the 588 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: Immigration and Nationality Act of nineteen sixty five got rid 589 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: of quotas based on immigrants countries of origin, which have 590 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: been part of immigration law for decades, instead focusing on 591 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: the skills of prospective immigrants. That said, the path to 592 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: naturalization in the US is long, it's difficult, it's complicated, 593 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: and it's very expensive for most people today, and for 594 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: many there is really no legal path to immigration to 595 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: the US and no way to move to a legal 596 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: status after entering the country illegally or after overseteing a visa. 597 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: In the Trump versus Barbara oral arguments that we mentioned 598 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: at the top of the show, Justice Soda Mayor asked 599 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: the listener General sour whether under the logic he was 600 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: using people could be denaturalized as they had been after 601 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: the court's decision in United States versus bagatsinkh Thint. Sour 602 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: had previous said that the executive order applied only prospectively, 603 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: meaning to people who were not born yet, and that 604 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: the government was asking the court to rule only perspectively. 605 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: But Sodamayor said, quote, the logic of your position, if accepted, 606 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: is that the next president, this president, or the next president, 607 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: or a congress or someone else could decide that it 608 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't be perspective. There would be nothing limiting that according 609 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: to your theory. So the two of them kind of 610 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: went back and forth a couple of times, with Soda 611 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: Mayor asking again if Sour's logic would allow people to 612 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: be denaturalized, and Sour repeating that the court should issue 613 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: a decision that quote applies perspectively only, and then Soda 614 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: Mayor's answer to that was, quote, well, but that's not 615 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: what we did in thin uh, And that's the United 616 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: States versus I got Syna thinned hoorray for yucky things. Uh. 617 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: Do you have listener that is hopefully less irate making 618 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: I do well? I have mails. This is actually from 619 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: a while back. I've had it flag to read for 620 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: a while and I just lost sight of it. This 621 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: is from Rebecca, who wrote, Hello, my fair ladies. I 622 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: have to add this caveat every time I write, but 623 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: I'm rather behind again. But I just listened to your 624 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: behind the scenes on the Doomsday book, and I wanted 625 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: to share old house experience and offer some information. I 626 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: bought my house in two thousand and eight, and it 627 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: was constructed in the late eighteen nineties. I love many things, 628 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: like the wood floors and built in shelves and cabinetry. 629 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: But not only is my house old, but it was 630 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,959 Speaker 1: the church vicar's house for about fifty years. Apparently many 631 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: things were done by whoever volunteered, and a lot of 632 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: stuff was definitely never to code. I sometimes joke that 633 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: buying a house, particularly an old house, is owning a 634 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: hole in the ground into which you throw money. As 635 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: to bureaucracy, I am guilty. When asked to identify my 636 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: general job type, I am a regulator. I wanted to 637 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: offer a little information that I find a lot of 638 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: people don't understand. There are permits that are discretionary and 639 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: those that are not. A classic non discretionary permit is 640 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: a building permit. There is a set and rigid standard 641 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: which must be met. The roof must be at this angle. 642 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: The maximum step height is that. In general, non discretionary 643 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: permits shouldn't take long to get. A discretionary permit has standards, 644 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: but they're less rigid and open to interpretation based on 645 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: the specific circumstances. Examples of discretionary permits would be a 646 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: zoning variance or a site plan approval. Because they involve 647 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: consideration of multiple factors and usually are not reviewed or 648 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 1: approved by a single individual, they usually take longer. Many 649 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: may also include a public review element, which of course 650 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: adds to the processing time. I process discretionary environmental permits. 651 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: My review team may include half a dozen people, a 652 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: wildlife biologist, a wetland biologist, an air engineer, a wastewater engineer, 653 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: and of course many include attorneys as well. If the 654 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: project is continuous or has a high public profile, executive 655 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: staff may be involved too. Two to three months is 656 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: generally the minimum processing time for an application. My personal 657 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 1: record is fourteen years. I would note that included multiple 658 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: periods where the applicant was working on revisions or information 659 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: gathering and nothing was under review. So any consideration for 660 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: timeframes forgetting a permit should consider whether it's discretionary or not, 661 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: and how many approvals are needed. A good consultant should 662 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: make you aware of this upfront. So that's my PSA 663 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: on regulation and permitting. I think this followed a discussion 664 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: that we had that was about zoning laws and zoning 665 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: variances and how it can take a while, and how 666 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: there are people who are opposed to things like the 667 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: building of housing who will use that process intentionally to 668 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: slow things down because they don't want an apartment building 669 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: in their neighborhood. There's one last thought, which is that 670 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: the staffing levels and individual decision making discretion may vary 671 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: across agencies, individual municipalities, and even departments within the municipality, 672 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: all of which can affect the time permitting takes. Thanks 673 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: always for the amazing job you do. And then we 674 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: got a beautiful picture of the first successful Freezia flowers 675 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: after many years and many bulbs of trying, beautiful, beautiful 676 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: yellow flower. We are as we're recording this right at 677 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: the time where stuff is really starting to bloom where 678 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: I live. So even though this email was from a 679 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: few months ago, that I forgot to get up to 680 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: the top of the reading list of seeing this beautiful 681 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,439 Speaker 1: yellow flower seems very time and weather appropriate, so thank 682 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: you Rebecca for that. PSA. If you would like to 683 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: write us a notehere at history Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com, 684 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,720 Speaker 1: and if you would like to read our show notes 685 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: with all of our sources, this is that our website 686 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: which is at missinhistory dot com. And you can subscribe 687 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: to the show on the iHeartRadio app, but anywhere else 688 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: you'd like to get your podcasts. Stuff you missed in 689 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 690 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 691 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.