1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: the B n F podcast. So whatever device you're listening 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: to this on right now, there is a data center involved. 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: This podcast is out there in cyberspace, which actually isn't 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: an intangible space at all. Cyberspace is comprised of many, 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: many data centers in warehouses with significant energy demand in 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Europe across five key geographies the UK, Germany, Ireland, the 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Netherlands and Norway. This demand could grow by eight by 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: the end of the decade. In this same period between 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: now and wind and solar power are projected to approach 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: six of total power generation. So what is a grid 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: with a lot of renewable energy need well flexibility to 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: handle the times when the sun isn't shining and the 14 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: wind isn't blowing so hard. The question we're exploring today 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: is could data centers and all of the backup energy 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: that they have become a distributed energy resource and help 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: provide grid flexibility. Michael ken Effect and Sarah Raza from 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: B and E F worked on a report titled Data 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: Centers and Decarbonization Unlocking Flexibility in Europe's Data Centers. This 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: was done in partnership with Eaton and stack Craft. As 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: a reminder, B and E F does not provide investment 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: or strategy advice, and our full disclaimer is going to 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: be at the end of the show. And now let's 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: speak with Michael and Sarah about data centers and GRIT flexibility. 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: I am joined today with Michael and Sarah to talk 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: about data centers, but not in the way that you 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: may think about them. I think oftentimes when we're thinking 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: about data centers, were actually thinking of the intense energy demand. 29 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Immediately what comes to mind actually is bitcoin mining. But 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: that is a conversation maybe for another show. But we're 31 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: here today to talk about data centers as a force 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: and source of flexible energy demand. So Sarah and Michael, 33 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: you very much for joining today. Thanks data So let's 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: start at the very beginning with what specifically we're talking about. 35 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: What is a data center? Paint a picture in my 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: mind of what this looks like. So a data center 37 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: is a physical facility that organizations would use to house 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: their applications and data. A data center's design is basically 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: sort of based on a network of computing and storage 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: resources that enable that delivery of the shared applications and data. 41 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: And if you're interested, the kind of key components of 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: a data center include routers, switches, firewalls, storage systems, servers, 43 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: and all sorts of other computer resources. So I mean 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: essentially everything that we interact with in the electronic world. 45 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: The recording platform we're on right now, my Netflix, and 46 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: the bitcoin that I don't own. All of those things 47 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: are stored in a data center somewhere exactly. And the 48 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: type of data center varies, right. So the main kind 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: of two categories that we have and that we looked 50 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: at in this report our co location and hyper scale 51 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: data centers. And you may have heard both of those, 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: and in case you're not entirely sure what they are. 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: So a co location data center those built for the 54 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: purpose of renting space for servers and other computing hardware 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: to clients. So you know, you might get a company 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: who says, right, we need one room housing x amount 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: of servers for us, and then and next door to 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: that a different company. A hyper scale data center often 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: called a self build. These data centers are basically owned 60 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: and operated by cloud service providers like AWS, Microsoft or 61 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Facebook or Apple. To put this in context, how energy 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: intensive are these and how big is the scale of 63 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: the energy demand here, So dass it is are very 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: large buildings that consume huge amounts of electrical power, not 65 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: only for the servers themselves actually I guess that we 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: said all your our bitcoin and podcasts live upon, but 67 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: then also the supporting so the exporting service like the 68 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: cooling for the building as well, which is quite a 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: significant demand because they can overheat, right because their energy intensive, 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: they get warm. Yeah, exactly, there's lots lots of really 71 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: cool things looking at the efficiency of cooling for these 72 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: buildings to really though that's only part of it for 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: most of the demand, Like if the cooling partment makes 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: about of overall electrical demand and the data center, most 75 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: of that computing power and energy goes to doing the 76 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: applications and hosting the data itself. So these are actually 77 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: really sophisticated energy resources. They have their own on site 78 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: backup power generators, they have their own batteries on site 79 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: as well, so they're really interesting. Legs actually can be 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: not just connecting to the grids and causing more and 81 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 1: more issues with supply or with congestion, But I should 82 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: be more of this solution, you know, like how they 83 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: can interact and be more responsive to what the grid needs. Okay, 84 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: so we've established that they're definitely a source of energy 85 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: demand and will to the flexibility in a second, but 86 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: just before we get too deep into that, and I 87 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: think it matters for us to point out which countries 88 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: in kind of which part of the world you guys 89 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: specifically looked at, because this is a bit of a 90 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: case study. It seems like everything is a bit unique here. 91 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: So we've done a case study on some specific countries 92 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: for some specific reasons which will hopefully have applicability to 93 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. And maybe you could shed 94 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: some light on that. What did we look at? Yeah, so, Danna, 95 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: you might be familiar with the flat D markets. I 96 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: don't know if you've come across that. No, I have 97 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: not come across. Said so, most data center capacity in 98 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: Europe is concentrated in five countries Germany, UK, France, Ireland 99 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: and the Netherlands, and that kind of capacity is almost 100 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: in five of those cities, and that's referred to as 101 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: flat D. So these markets are the largest for a 102 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: bunch of reasons, Like Frankfurt, London and Amsdam obviously have 103 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: the largest Internet exchanges Dublin is a data center hubs 104 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: specifically for you know the history of large technology companies 105 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: headquartering in Ireland. But we actually decided to yes, focus 106 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: on the UK, Ireland, Germany and the Netherlands, which, as 107 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: you guys just heard, you know, they're four of the 108 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: largest markets. But we also chose to focus on Norway, 109 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: which is a very sort of emerging market could potentially, 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: you know, in the future accommodate a lot of green 111 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: and flexible data centers. Does every country have their own 112 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: market or do they sometimes by this data center space 113 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: from another country When we talk about European data centers, 114 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: A lot of that is really in these five countries. 115 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean we we are seeing more sort of data 116 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: centers cropping up in Italy and Croatia and places that 117 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: traditionally weren't massive hubs for data centers. And I think 118 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: also a lot of the newer places that are seeing 119 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: a lot more build our due to you know, more 120 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: land being available and milder climate, perhaps near more solar 121 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: and wind resources. So what about the future of this 122 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: space in terms of demand? Because I don't see myself 123 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: deleting any of my children's baby pictures anytime soon they're 124 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: going to stay on that cloud server forever. Is this 125 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: growing rapidly? Is this one of those kind of up 126 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: into the right or almost straight up energy demand stories. 127 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: So in this report, our actual goal here in one 128 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: of the you know, one section of the report was 129 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: to actually extrapolate and understand what demand would look like 130 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: in twenty thirty. So we kind of looked at current 131 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: data center power demand in one data center actricity demand 132 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: and you know, project that out until twenty thirty, and 133 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: kind of some of our conclusions here were that this 134 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: level of growth, you know, is not slowing. You know 135 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: that there is obviously uncertainty around how much data centers 136 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: in Europe will grow. So for the twenty thirty forecast, 137 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: we actually built three different scenarios. So we built a low, 138 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: a medium, and a high growth and these scenarios assume 139 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: sort of different compound downual growth rates, taking into account 140 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: a lot of other things within the data centers to 141 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: reflect those uncertainties regarding planning, permission, constrained land options, available 142 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: power connections. So it's definitely a difficult task in all 143 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: about scenarios. You know, data centers do grow across all 144 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: five of those regions. Since I was kind of under 145 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: sun nerves less slightly, there should a huge amount of 146 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: work of building from a database of how much capacity 147 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: of data centers exist in these five countries, and we 148 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: use that they're actually too while amount of capacity in 149 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: each Markish could be the same, are are less even, 150 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: but actually the impact they have on the grid is 151 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: really relevant to the size of the grid that they're 152 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: connected to. There's a big range there. So m I say, 153 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: like like Ireland and UK might have similar amounts of 154 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: data center capacity connected while in the UK doesn't just 155 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: make up about two and a half percent of the 156 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: amount of electricity the UK consumes. In Ireland, data centers 157 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: today consumed by fourteen or fift of all of Ireland's 158 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: electrical generations. So the big gap between the impacts that 159 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: the data centers can have on grids. Okay, so they 160 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: have an impact, and I think we've set this up. 161 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: Let's go to the flexible part of the demand. What 162 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: is the opportunity here because I'm thinking as we talk 163 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: about flexible demand, we're not going to be able to 164 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: take them offline. This is there's a security of supply 165 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: issue here. So what are the choices available to data 166 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: centers to build that flexibility. I mean, this is kind 167 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: of the crux of it, and I guess what we 168 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: really wanted to dive into with the reports. When you're 169 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: looking at a data center, there's several sources of flexibility available, 170 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: so you can have the load. So actually if that 171 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: is the applications and the data's going on, and you 172 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: could shift that by time, you know, so if you've 173 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: got something that doesn't have to happen at two o'clock 174 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: in the day, and you can actually do that too 175 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: a m at night, let's shift that also if something 176 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 1: can happen in Germany, especially the German grids really congested 177 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: at the moment, how we can shift that computational task 178 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: to France where actually there's a it's a far more 179 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: relaxed grid. What is the load you can shift us? 180 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: As I was saying earlier, is a lot of electrical 181 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: equipment on site, so you have the up Yes, so 182 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: that's the uninterruptible power supply. So this is a battery 183 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: that pretty much every data center will have that if 184 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: the grid goes down, which is a huge issue for 185 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: data stays, as you said, das do not want to 186 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: go down they get paid to be online when we 187 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: want to have our podcasts, and we all get very 188 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: upset when our podcasts aren't there. I certainly do. So 189 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: they have what they call the UPS and the power 190 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: supply that will come on instantly. The power supply goes 191 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: down and we'll run for about five ten minutes until 192 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: the backup generators come online. Because it's like starting up 193 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: your card, you have to turn the engine on, it 194 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: takes the while for the engine to warm up. So 195 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: UPS is a battery that can jump in. Every dozener 196 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: has a backup generator. The problem is most of those 197 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: are diesel. We don't want to use diesels for flexibility. Ideally, 198 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: these backup generors will never be run. There are alternative options. 199 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: You could use hydrogen, new options that if those were installed, 200 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: maybe we can actually start to use that backup generation 201 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: to do more flexible things with it. Well, so first 202 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: of all, how much flexibility are you talking about? Minutes, hours, days? 203 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: What's the duration of time that's being proposed here. It 204 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: will all be quite short. I think it does vary 205 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: on those different aspects of the load shifting. The UPS 206 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: and the backup generation. The ups to be very short 207 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: we're like, we're talking it's seconds to two minutes. Also, 208 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: does centerpposers wary of using the UPS to do these 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: interesting things for the grid because it's a backup plan, 210 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: then you don't have a backup plan for the backup 211 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: plan exactly. So if there's a lot of hesitation, and 212 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about that in the future. But 213 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: were those actually those ups can work really well? Is 214 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: to provide frequency response to the grid. This is a 215 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: very big topic get too. But you can think about 216 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: frequency response as like it's the as frequency as the 217 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: heartbeat of the grid. So the grid needs to need 218 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: suppose a fifty hurts, so that's fifty times second. And 219 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: how the UPS could work with like a pace maker. 220 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: When the fifty hurts goes a little bit too higher, 221 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: a little bit too low, the UPS the pacemaker kind 222 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: of gives it a shock to keep the hurts, to 223 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: keep the heartbeat going at that healthy point all of 224 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: fifty hurts. So that's kind of one of the main 225 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: uses we saw. So let's say the backup generation was 226 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: built into the system with the intention to use it, 227 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: and you mentioned a number of solutions. Okay, so bio 228 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: fuels one of them. I definitely am seeing this coming 229 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: very much back into the lexicon after a decade of 230 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: not being talked about quite as much. But then you 231 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: mentioned to other things batteries and hydrogen, which as of 232 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: right now are very expensive sources of energy. Is there 233 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: a point at which they become economically viable because the 234 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: flexible demand is kicking in at a time when the 235 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: grid really needs it, so the pricing signal is there 236 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: or will it always be a commitment to let's say, 237 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: certain emissions profiles as opposed is too Actually I don't know. 238 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: I mean, what's what's the what's the incentive? So you're 239 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: hitting on a great point of the incentives and I 240 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: definitely want to get to that in terms of these 241 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: two technologies, so like batteries and hydrogen, I think to 242 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: focus on those. There's only one data center in the 243 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: world that we know that is even at the trial 244 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: stage of using a large battery as backup Google as 245 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: a data center in Belgium. So that's really interesting. See 246 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: they're already thinking about the next step. Microsoft is pretty 247 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: keen on hydrogen. It's running a couple of projects at 248 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: the moment, and Microsoft actually set a goal to be 249 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: diesel free by twenty thirty. So there's an end goal there, 250 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be interesting, Actually, what are the options 251 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: they're going to use to try and hit that goal? Because, 252 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: as we're saying a number, but it's the vast majority 253 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: of backup generation is I think that green incentive might 254 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: be one of the best pushes we have to tapping 255 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: into that data center flexibility. And you're seeing these these 256 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: two leaders of Google and Microsoft. You know, they're starting 257 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: to talk about seven remove of energy matching. You know, 258 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: shifting your load is going to make that a whole 259 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: lot easier if you can do that. And are they 260 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: sitting in the benchmark how corporations are going to think 261 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: about the energy procure image? Eliot at that benchmark ten 262 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: years ago with p P A S. They setting that 263 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: benchmark again today with this twenty seven renewable energy matching 264 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: that other corporations will have to keep up with and 265 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: years to come. Now for a very short break, stay 266 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: with us out of curiosity the companies that are operating 267 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: and running these data centers. I mean, you mentioned Microsoft 268 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: and Google and companies that I know have net zero targets, 269 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: in some cases very ambitious ones. We maybe even negative 270 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: missions targets. But what about the rest of the industry. 271 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: Is there a high number of companies with net zero 272 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: targets in this I don't don't have been called too 273 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: many edge It's on fair because obviously those those companies 274 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: have been so public with it. You, i think, said Sarah, 275 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: spoke through a number of these co location providers as well. 276 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: But this is actually gets pretty difficult between let's say, 277 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: the hyper scalers of those cloud operators we know well 278 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: and these co location companies because on the one hand, 279 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: the hypersco operators, they are very well resourced, you know, 280 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: some of the wealthiest companies in the world, and the 281 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: others had you had these co location operators who operate 282 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: the majority of data centers we see, but they are 283 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: not as well resourced. I think Equinics were the largest 284 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: data center collocator operators has a market cap of by 285 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: thirty billion, as opposed to Google I think, which is 286 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: at one point five trillion. Amazons around that two trillion 287 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: mark as well, So it's kind of a it's difficult 288 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: going to compare them. Also, the big companies have far 289 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: more control over what they can do, like they own 290 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: all their own data centers, they decide what servers that 291 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: go into them. They know the ass that are going 292 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: through them, what their users are using it. For collocation 293 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: oppertors don't have that visibility. You know, companies come in 294 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: to build their servers in there. They have to serve 295 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: their customers where it's called an s l A, a 296 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: service level agreement, which can be quite restrictive to what 297 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: these co location companies can do. Yeah, and I think 298 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: just to add to that, exactly what Michael said, it 299 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: is a lot easier I think for hyper scale as 300 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: compared to co location. That's another reason why we looked 301 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: at Norway as an emerging market because of a lot 302 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: of it's you know, a lot of the integration and 303 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: renewables in Norway, and there's a provider I think Green Mountain. 304 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: Green Mountain uses add percent renewable power because obviously one 305 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: of the main challenges in the data center industry is 306 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: ensuring continual cooling throughout the day, and one of the 307 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: benefits of being somewhere like Norway is you know, you 308 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: can they can utilize some of the cold waters from 309 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: the deep Norwegian areas located adjacent to the facilities of 310 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: the data centers, which again have so much land. So 311 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: I think that we are seeing more and more colocation 312 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: providers and operators, you know, prioritize net zero simultaneously with 313 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: the hyper scalers. What's the policy environment for these data 314 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: centers and our countries welcoming them in or they something 315 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: where they're saying, you know, literally my grid has so 316 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: much demand, You're going to have to find somewhere else. 317 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: So I mean I can just speak to sort of 318 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: Ireland Breedflely. Obviously, growth in Ireland, you know, you would expect, 319 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: typically as someone who knows nothing about data centers, you know, 320 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: out of those five regions, you'd immediately be like, oh, 321 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: you know, we expect Ireland to be have the biggest growth, 322 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: just because we know that you know all the aws 323 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: and you know Google's data centers. But actually it might 324 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: not be as rapid as it has been in the 325 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: last few years. And that's that's really due to Ireland's 326 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: recent sort of policy proposals, and some of those include 327 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: limiting new data center build unless certain flexibility requirements are met. 328 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of pushbacks from Irish 329 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: citizens who are concerned about power at climate issues, and 330 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: I think unlike somewhere like Germany, most data centers in 331 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: Ireland are really concentrated in one major city, Dublin, and 332 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Dublin's electricity grid was not built to cater for such 333 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: high demand from data centers, which I think has resulted 334 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: in network supply constraints. Michael, and sure you can speach 335 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: this little bit more, but you know, in June last year, 336 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: the Commission for Regulation of Utility is the CRU proposed 337 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: that the Irish network operators a grid and ESP networks 338 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: and which are kind of the largest, proposed that they 339 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: prioritize data center connection requests outside of network constrained areas, 340 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: which means there was a lot of uncertainty around you know, 341 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: estimating Ireland growth, especially for the future of thirty or 342 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: more proposed data centers in and around Dublin Islands. Obviously 343 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: is we can tell by accident is quite close to 344 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: my heart and Ireland is dozens in Ireland's consume four 345 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: of the car contre's entire electricity consumption. Our estimates are 346 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: twenty thirty, which actually aligned with what are grid the 347 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: grid operator is looking at, is about like a quarter 348 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: of all Irish electricity consumption will be data centers. That's 349 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: a big number, just to give a scale. In Germany, 350 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: which is the largest data center capacity with a much 351 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: charger grid, that numbers about one point five percent, So 352 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: doesn't Actually they are scaring the Irish grid operator and 353 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: there have been quite drastic proposals that Sarah just mentioned, 354 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: but that's slightly different to actually what we're seeing in 355 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: other regions. So in Ireland it's actually a concern of 356 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: security of supply. The Irish grid will not be able 357 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: to meet you know, will not be able to meet 358 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: all of the demand as well as meeting gridade energy targets, 359 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: which is no electricity by twenty thirty. What we see 360 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: in other regions, the most notably Abstam, which introduced a 361 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: ban for an entire year. They said you could not 362 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: build any more new data center is They have never 363 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: lifted that, but said you can only build a certain 364 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: amount by thirty and they have to be in these 365 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: particular regions. Fand first is talking to a bunch of 366 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: proposals as well to like forced data centers to build 367 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: in particular areas, and I think that's maybe some of 368 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: the lessons to learn for like emerging regions that are 369 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: looking to attract data centers is to think a bit 370 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: more about where these data centers are going to sit 371 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: on the grid. And it's actually the issues are not 372 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: just purely the grid and the capacity of the grid 373 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: locally to take it, but also the amount of land. 374 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: You know, the dozens are very really big things, and 375 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: they take up a lot of land that could be 376 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: used for you know, warehouses or offices. Reneable energy are 377 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: exactly the actually it weren't the rules proposed. And find 378 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: first is that that sid just can't be located near 379 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: public transport hubs because they don't actually have many people. 380 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: So they actually would rather push, you know, a warehouse 381 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: that has a lot of staff, put that near the 382 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: public transport hub. And what is the hourly demand profile? 383 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: Look for them? Is it constant or does it have 384 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: a peak? It's flash, it's a flat so so there 385 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: you it's pancake, but the rest of the grid is not. 386 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm guessing many of the people listening, 387 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: although not all, know that when people come home in 388 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: the evening on a regular day, now that many people 389 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: are going back to work and going about their days 390 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: a bit more than they maybe had been in the 391 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: last two years, you see this very peak and trough 392 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: throughout the day in terms of demand profile. So data centers, 393 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: if they're able to take some of their demand offline, 394 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: presumably in the evening when everybody gets home, they're sort 395 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: of solving part of the demand that they take. They're 396 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: at least solving part of the demand that they are 397 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: adding to the grid. They're reducing the aggregate demand added 398 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: to the grid if they're reducing that peak at certain 399 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: points in the day, because the alternative, I suppose it's 400 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: just to build more energy even with the diesel generators. 401 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: Depending upon the grid you're on, is there a scenario 402 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: where the diesel generators still lead us to a lower 403 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: overall emissions environment, And so yeah, you can talk about 404 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: actually does it to demand on what the profile looks like. 405 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: So I think it's funny every talks a lot about 406 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: electric vehicles. They might demand they're going to break to 407 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: the grid, and it will, but actually data centers, depending 408 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: on the region, we'll actually have more demands. So in 409 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: Ireland data centers there will be four times in thirty 410 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: centers be four times the demand of electric vehicles in 411 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: tear what hours in Netherlands has twice the amount of 412 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: electric vehicles use, and there's so much to talk about 413 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: smart hairs for electric vehicles and shifting that load around 414 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: and doing really interesting things, but doesn't as though they 415 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: are a larger source of demand, nor really talks about it. 416 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: I guess it's harder for us to visit. You know, 417 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: we know that tesa looks like we see it on 418 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: the road and we can see it plugged it and charging, 419 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: but us in arms, they're obscure. We don't see them 420 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: and the electricity they use. So if we can shift 421 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: that load around, that kind of a huge impact. The 422 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: problem is are you asking us to listen to our 423 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: podcasts at different times of the day. We listen to 424 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: our podcast like to two to am mid night, it 425 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: was about six pm in the evening. Like it comes 426 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: down to how we consume our digital goods and actually 427 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: where are we willing to shift that or are there 428 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: other ways that can be shifted? Which parties are most 429 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: interested in watching this development? And you know pilot projects 430 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: come to fruition. Is it some combination of the grid operators, 431 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: the data center providers or the data center providers with 432 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: net zero targets, or the countries and the policymakers themselves 433 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: thinking about the overall grid impact for their country, actually 434 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: have the grid operators, the data center operators, and I 435 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: guess I think governments as well. And this is actually 436 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: where we're Ireland is the interesting case study that the 437 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: good operator is saying it's gonna be really hard, you know, 438 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: to accept more of these data centers datapers want to 439 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: continue to build in Ireland, and then the government is 440 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: in this tough position of yes, we want this invert 441 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: investment from these companies into the country, Yes we want 442 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: to hit our removal the energy targets. But then we 443 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: have the good opperators saying you can't have these two things. 444 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: It's an unfortunate conflict. It's almost like now that the 445 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: regulations that were proposed that Sarah mentioned earlier data to 446 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: operations actually need to care about this now because let's 447 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, let's be honest. Dat centers role is not 448 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: to serve the grid. Their role is to serve us. 449 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: It's to serve their users is to a kid to 450 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: to wear out. The to wear it out is to 451 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: make sure that our podcasts are there when we when 452 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: we want to listen to them. So but these new 453 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: rules that i'll be introduced or making data center operators 454 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: to have to respond and if they want to avoid 455 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: causing these kind of unfortunate situation sations were seeing in 456 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: Ireland and in frank first and and in Amsterdam, which 457 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: causes a lot of bad public pushback. You know, you 458 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: do see there is a letter European MPs MVPs are 459 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: receiving petitions to ban new build of data centers. You know, 460 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: it's not good press. And there's that move to be 461 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: more engaged, to be more responsive and actually maybe take 462 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: the lead and maybe get ahead of any regulation that 463 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: might come in. It could be a much more proactive 464 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: saying that dataset or operators can do. Where do you 465 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: think we're going to see development in this space? First? 466 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: As we're watching it progress, what are the signs of 467 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: life that you're looking for to see things really start 468 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: to move forward. Recent growth has been driven by cloud 469 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: computing demand, and I think an interesting kind of observation 470 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: to look forward to the future would be, you know, 471 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: how does that kind of split look between hyper scale 472 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: and co location. The report kind of states that you know, 473 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: the UK and Germany are really lead strongly by co 474 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: location data centers. You know, I think Germany has pretty 475 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: much zero hyper scale data centers, but Google has actually 476 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: made a commitment to build one in Frankfurt. So I 477 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: think looking forward to see, you know, how that split 478 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: will look and how those countries will change in that 479 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: split between co location and hyper scale, and how that 480 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: increase in cloud computing will change that. I think also 481 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: a lot of new build has actually been and what 482 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: we've seen from when we did this analysis was actually 483 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: site expansions rather than brand new sites. So Dublin, London, 484 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: Amsterdam and Frankfurt, which are kind of the four main 485 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: cities that we see within those kind of countries that 486 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: we looked at, are kind of very mature data center market. 487 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: I think the large operators there are kind of shown 488 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: little to no interest to buy brand new sites, and 489 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: in those locations actually have just focused on expanding current 490 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: So for example, n d G advantages seventy megal what 491 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: data center in the UK recently and now plans to 492 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: double this current capacity. If you really want to encourage 493 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: DASA to be more flexible, I mean a lot of 494 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: things that can happen within power markets themselves to improve 495 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: the signals for flexibility, which it basically improves the economic case, 496 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: like them money you can earn by being flexible, Because 497 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: to be honest, if you can be flexible and earn 498 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: loads of money out of it, I mean companies are 499 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: going to go for that their businesses. But as well 500 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: as that kind of the economics is also the environmental side. 501 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: So like if we can send those singles through to 502 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: the companies and through to the end users, ultimately that 503 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: if you actually, if you act more flexible or if 504 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: you behave more flexible in your datas that your use, 505 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: we can reduce overall emissions on the grid. I think 506 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: the most important thing and actually going to drive all 507 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: of this is we need to just more learning. Like 508 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: it's really it's really new. This is all quite new 509 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: to everyone. There's a few ongoing at the moment and 510 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: more on the way, but a lot of work to 511 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: be done. We're probably fine to ten years before we 512 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: start to see some really big movements in data centers 513 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: operations in their great responsiveness headed into this. I reference 514 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning the fact that when I think of 515 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: data centers, I actually think of currency mining, the electronic currencies, 516 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: And I think, Michael, you had an anecdote that maybe 517 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: at least one of the currencies out there is looking 518 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: at this space closely as well. Sure, so yeah, Actually, 519 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: only a couple of weeks ago, a bitcoin mine and 520 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: the U in the US actually agreed to shift this load. 521 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: And it's actually interest where Bitcoin actually might might work 522 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: well for this is that it is somewhat free to 523 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: shift its load, you know, like Google and Amazon kind 524 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: of depends on how we as users are using their services. 525 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: A bitcoin miners complete control over how it uses its 526 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: data center. So if it is willing and happy to 527 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: shift that load to win wind is higher on the grade, 528 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: to in solar is higher in the gride to win 529 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: actually helps the flow of electricity across the grid, then 530 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: it could actually be a good resource and breditionally more 531 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: effective done some of these more traditional data centers that 532 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: we've been talking about. So we'll watch the space develop. 533 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: It's definitely one of the newer and more tech spaces 534 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: that we look at the future of energy demand and 535 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 1: in this case, specifically data centers. Michael Sarah, thank you 536 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: very much for joining today. Thank you, thank you, Dinna. 537 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner 538 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: of gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg an F as a service 539 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording 540 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: does not constitute, nor should it be construed as investment advice, 541 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: investment recommendations, or recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. 542 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg ana F should not be considered as information sufficient 543 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: upon which to base an investment decision. 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