WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 68 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know. This is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.880 can make your own decisions. Hey there, listeners, this is 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.520 producer DJ Daniel. The following episode was recorded before the 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.520 horrible events in Monterey Park. The team will release an 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.960 episode addressing the situation once more details have emerged. Thank 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:42.440 you and enjoy. It''s Aluter New Years. Yeah, Happy New Years. 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.760 It's it's it's it's the New Year's Special. It's me Mia, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.320 I've got I've got cherin with me. Yeah, how how 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:49.680 are you doing? I guess, I guess it's I guess 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:51.519 it's not the New Year yet while we're recording it, 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.040 but it will be by the time you hear this. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:58.560 That counts. That counts. Um. I'm good. I'm I got 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.400 a cat recently and I call funny. And then I 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.520 learned later that this year is the Year of the Rabbit. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:11.520 So yeah, I feel really happy about that for this year. Yeah, exactly, 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.240 So I'm good. I'm good. That's a that's that's having 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.440 new Cat is an amazing way to start any year. Yes, yes, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.000 I agree, this was very exciting that. Do you know 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.600 what else is very exciting? Transitions? They paid me to 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:30.039 do this for some reason. Alright, this this this year, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.120 we're going to talk about Chinese restaurant syndrome and the 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.000 whole sort of anti MSG craze. Yes, so that was 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.040 that's always been so big. I don't know. I grew 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.400 up in like a I don't know, a diverse area 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:44.240 in San Diego, but we would always go to fun 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:48.160 like regularly, and the no MSG was like all over 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.280 the menu and everything. It's like this thing that I mean, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 every restaurant I went to basically was just like come 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.960 to us, there's no must. So I'm really curious how 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.280 it started because growing up I was like, okay, MS trees, Dad, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.760 I guess you know what I mean too, So yeah, 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.000 I feel like it wasn't It wasn't really, it wasn't 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.400 as intense where I was growing up, but that was like, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:09.919 I don't know, it was it was a very white suburb. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:12.840 But and people people were still freaked out about MSG. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.320 But it wasn't but like the the the Asian restaurants 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.880 didn't like talk about it ever, I don't know, but 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:21.760 it was still it was still very sort of like 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.440 like I remember I would go like eat dinner with 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.480 like white families and they'd be talking about MSG, and 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.920 I was like what for a good amount of time. Yeah, 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.680 having now talked about MSG for a bit, we should 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.080 we should ask like what what is MSG? And the 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.480 answer okay, So MSG stands from mono sodium glutamate, which 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.360 is it's just a salt. Basically, it's salt with like 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.560 glutamate and it has a bunch of your mommy and 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.200 it I'm gonna read this thing from Kenji from Serious 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.400 Eats because every every every single article started that starts 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:53.680 about this has like this exact paragraph in it. So 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.120 I'm just gonna read it instead of trying to rewrite 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.800 this paragraph that I wanted to. MSG is a sodium 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.080 salt of glutamic acid and a amino acid. It was 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:09.160 first isolated in nineteen o eight by Japanese biochemist Kakua Ikeda, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.200 who was trying to discover what exactly gave Dashi the 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.639 Japanese flavor broth with comba, Japanese giant sea kelp its 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.440 strong savory character. Turns out that comba is packed with 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.840 glutamic acid. It was Akita who coined the term mummmi, 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.240 which roughly translates a savory to describe to glutamic acid 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.200 and other seminal similar amino acids. Until that point, scientists 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.320 had only discovered the other four flavors sensed by the 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:37.000 tongue and the soft palate, salty, sweet, sour, and bitter. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.600 By nine, pure crystallite MSG extracted from the abundant kelp 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.680 in the sea around Japan, was being sold under the 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.320 brand name a gi No Moto roughly Element of Flavor. 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.480 The company exists to this day. Now keep that in mind, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.160 that's going to be important to the last part of 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.160 the story. But you know, in the meantime, you know, 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.480 around around around nineteen oweight, once this is discovered, that 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.400 it turns into this sort of enormous industry. Um here's 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.800 from a pretty good Men's Health article about it. By 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.880 the nineteen forties, number of American companies were producing MSG 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.360 domestically for the consumer, the most famous being accents. Okay, 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.320 there there's like it's spelled acts. It's it's accent, but 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.360 it's spelled a c apostrophe C E N T. That's 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:29.640 not yeah, no, that's me, yeah said, which was its 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.919 it's advertising is a bleak place. That's that's a different episode, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:39.920 I think partially, yes, also partially this episode, but yeah. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.360 The most famous one being accent, which was advertised as 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.760 pure mono sodium glutimate. That quote makes food flavors sing. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.240 Various food magazines and community cookbooks featured the additive as 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.360 an ingredient and the likes of fried chicken wings and 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.239 barbecue sauce recipes. By nineteen sixty nine, fifty eight million 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.000 pounds of MSG were being produced in the US per year, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.440 says Food a Story and Ian Moseby PhD. For an 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.560 entire generation, the ingredient was presented in a dizzying array 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.840 of food products breakfast cereals, TV dinners, frozen vegetables, baby food, 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.839 and soup produced by beloved brands such as Campbells and Swanson, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.520 which today offer foods products free of MSG additives. And okay, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.240 if you think about this, for a second. It's actually 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.400 really weird that msg s thought it as a Chinese thing, 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.200 because like, okay, MSG all told has only been around 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.120 for like a hundred years, right, It's heavily used in 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.560 the US for like thirty or forty years. Like it's 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.960 not in it's not really in China for that much longer. 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.479 For it is in the US, and it's used in 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.760 just like a bunch of American food. How didk that start? 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.279 Do we know how that association started? And continued? Yeah, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.600 well we'll get it. Most it mostly has to do 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.920 with like it has to do with restaurants, and it 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:54.960 specifically has to do with the part that we're getting 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.760 to about this letter, which is weird. And I will 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.840 say like that there are a lot of Chinese families 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.560 at like just use MSG for like they're cooking. My 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.360 my house never did it because we're lazy and most 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.800 of our cooking involves like as few ingredients and prep 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.680 as possible, so we just like it's also really in uh, 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.680 Vietnamese food. I feel like uses it a lot too. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.280 That's like that was my first association with it, So 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.360 I just associate because I'm I was, I don't know 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:28.240 fourteen I just said, Okay, this is Vietnamese, but that's 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.760 really interesting to just know, like, well, it's a Japanese too, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.960 like yeah, I mean it's Asian. It's yeah, yeah, I 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:37.680 don't know, but like it is just it is just 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.320 it's just interesting. Like the like people in the U 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.480 s were just like, I don't know, it's like it's 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:43.719 it was in everything. People in the US were also 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.320 just using it to cook food. This is also a 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.320 thing that like people in China use a lot too, 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.120 So it's not that like Chinese people don't do. It's 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.400 just like everybody, Like the moment everyone got it, they 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.680 were like, oh my god, this makes our food taste better. 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.960 Choose more of it. Of course, I'm I'm assuming. Once 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.200 it got demonized, it was like, oh, this is a 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.039 Chinese thing, but I don't know for sure. Yeah, I 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.680 will be patient. Yeah so this is this is in 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.640 fact the next thing. So nobody really cared about it 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:17.320 until nineteen sixty eight rolled around. Well so for those 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:22.560 sixty years, MSG was like, yeah, I just use it. Yeah, Um, 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.560 I'm forgetting where I'm going to read apart from this 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.600 journal article, and I've forgotten to put in what journal 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.720 is from because I'm a hack and a fraud. I 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.000 think it's a general natural health sure about that's right 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.200 to me? Yeah, sure, it's it's from It's from some journal. 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.520 Some doctors wrote it. Quote. In the spring of nine, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.200 Dr Robert Homeman wrote to the New England Journal of 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.520 Medicine asking the assistance of the journal's readership and invite 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.000 identifying the source of phenomenon that Dr Goa labeled the 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:57.160 Chinese Restaurant Syndrome CRS, numbness of his back and neck, palpitations, 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.320 and general weakness after he consumed meals in Chinese rest runs. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.640 Dr Gua hypothesize that the source of his syndrome might 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:05.920 be a reaction to the soy sauce, the cooking wine, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.920 the high sodium content of the food, or to the 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.440 flavor enhancing mono sodium glutamate MSG. Within two months, the 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.080 journal received a flurry of letters from readers who had 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.760 noticed a similar phenomenon after eating restaurant prepared Chinese food. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.920 So this is the start of this whole thing. And 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.600 there's one thing I need to point out right away 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.880 that is in almost every single article about this that 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.880 is wrong, which is that this this this this article 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.880 says that he's talking about Chinese food, which is true, 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.480 but very specifically and this and this is this is 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.480 going to be very important in about ten minutes. Well, 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.480 I don't know, it's gonna be important soon, which is 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.520 he specifically has a thing about how this is about 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:57.080 northern Chinese food mhm. And you know, this is something 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.120 that is something that everyone everyone sort of misses. The 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.199 other thing interesting about this is that, you know, he 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.000 he says it could be MSG, but you know, he's 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.360 treating MSG exactly like all of the rest of the 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.320 other stuff that's in this that's in the food. Right, 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.840 he lists soy sauce, he lists cooking wine. Maybe he's like, okay, 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.880 maybe there's too much salt, right, Like, he's not really 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.479 doing an MSG thing, But everyone who reads this immediately 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.319 focuses on the MSG. Okay. So before I started researching this, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.120 I had heard that this whole letter was actually fake. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.200 It was actually a prank. And you know, this is 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.760 this is a thing that's like it's kind of like okay. 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.320 So the story behind this was that it was supposed 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:40.080 to have been a prank by a white guy named 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.520 Dr Steele, who made it up as a joke and 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.439 this is the sort of like a folk like. Okay, 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.840 so this story is not true. The story I am 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:48.520 about to say is not true. It turns out this 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.280 letter is actually real. But there was there was basically 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.360 a story that went around that it was this guy 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.000 named Dr Steele who had made it up as a 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.040 way to get published in a journal for like a bet, 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.440 because like Dr Steel like claimed responsibility for it, and 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.240 that got out to researchers. But it turns yeah, and 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:05.959 so for a bit everyone was like, oh my god, 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:07.400 this whole thing was started by a prank. But it 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.800 turns out that's also not true. So this American life 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:17.920 figured out that Dr Robert Homa is a real guy. Uh. 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.480 Dr Steele had pretended that he said that he made 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.640 it up the name. It's not true. There's a real guy. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:24.640 They talked to his family and his colleagues and all 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.360 of them were like, oh, noguad like wrote this thing. 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.000 And interestingly, there's a lot of racism here too, because 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:37.520 Dr Steele had claimed that Homan, which is okay, So 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.000 this is where things get weird. Um I'm saying cool 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.079 because that's how you actually pronounce it. Um. It's spelled 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:49.840 h O M A N k w okay wha. Yeah, okay, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.720 so this this is this is some Yeah, so this 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.800 is a wad Giles bullshit, the previous attempt to sort 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.280 of romanize Chinese. Just think of Way Giles and it 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.720 is the band of my existence. It's dogshit. Hi, this 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.120 is me and post. I made a mistake here. K 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.000 w okay is actually the standard Cantonese spelling of good. 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.480 Sorry about that. I am a dipshit who does not 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.360 speak Cantonese. Yeah, enjoy the rest of the show. They 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.560 heard someone say go and we're like, this is k 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:22.520 w It's like no, no, it's not. Please, So that's bad. 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.439 It's literally the worst. Like if you if you ever 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.120 you know, so sometimes if you if you're if you're 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.680 looking at anything, you'lle something that's just spelled really weirdly, 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.800 like or for example, like the way that schenkai check 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:38.120 is spelled is actually like like it's actually a Way 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.199 Giles thing like that. There's there's a whole bunch of 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:45.680 likes that are like that. Yeah, yeah you can find um. 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.960 I don't know that that's I mean, that explains a lot, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.840 but yeah, it's what and part part of everything that's 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.880 happening to you here is that like so, and then 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.080 this is also gonna be important later. KOs is a 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.400 is a Cantonese last name. Um, but it's it's it 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.880 gets really really confusing really quickly if you don't know 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.560 what's going on, because if if, if you're reading, if 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.080 you're reading a word that's in Chinese in the US, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.679 it could either be in Mandarin or in Cantonese, and 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.160 it also could be either written with the terrible way 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:17.839 ales one or it could be in opinion, which is 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.200 like the one that's actually sort of usable. Um, but 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:26.240 Dr Steele because again the way it's written is h 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:30.600 O m A and k w o kay and Dr 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.880 Steele claims that he wrote it to be like human 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.560 croc of shit like how man kruk Yeah, excuse me, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:47.120 people like people believe yeah, well he's dead, so yeah, 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.560 that's that's so yeah, like this is this is so 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:57.959 racist and it's like you know, but this like people 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.280 people believe this for a while because m yeah, I 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:06.679 don't know, but okay, so eventually people figure out that 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.920 it's not true. And I'm going to read something from 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.960 from this American life piece where they talk about how 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.920 they figured out that it was actually like that was 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.080 like actually a real guy. And when you read the 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.480 original letter, there are details that seem more likely to 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.400 come from her father was a close father than from Howard. 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.960 How Howard Steel is the doctor, like when he said 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.520 he moved to the US, which the real doctor Good did, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.320 and how he's very specific the syndrome happens with northern 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.559 Chinese food in the sixties. How many white guys in 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.520 Philadelphia could have made that distinction? Also, home Man Kool 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.360 is an actual Cantonese name. What are the odds that 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.000 dr Steel through together random sounding Chinese syllables to arrive 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.040 at that? So, Okay, I read that. I had a revelation. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.320 I I cracked this case. Why the funk open? I 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.080 figured it out. I figured out what was going on 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.800 with this letter. Okay, I'm so excited for this. I'm 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.400 gonna hypen this up for like hours. I'm so exciting. 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.400 So I'm bts of this. We have like a group 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.679 chat essentially, and I didn't. I wasn't sure if I 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.400 can make this recording. But then Mia dropped that that 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:14.320 bomb being like I have this big break breakthrough, and 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.280 I was like, I gotta be there. I just gotta 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.839 be there. And so I kicked James out because James 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.280 couldn't make me time. I couldn't make it. So here 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.000 I have I have. I have not told Sharine what 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:33.880 the breakthrough this time? Here? Okay? So is Cantonese, right, 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.400 and she specifies in this letter that this is about 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.360 northern Chinese food. My thesis right here, right now is 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.360 that this whole letter it's actually about, It's actually about 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.560 Cantonese anti Northerland sentiments. This is the whole last thing 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.360 in China. Canton or like the region that was called Canton. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.280 The west is like where Cantonese people are. This is like, 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.720 this is the very south of China. Right, there is 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.920 a whole last thing in China. Let like people from 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:04.920 the North people from the South hate each other. Um, 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.120 it's actually very weird. So my my family is like 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.520 half from the north, half from the South. And like 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.560 when my mom was growing up, she like she would 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.080 like get made fun of for how she like rolled 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.440 dumplings because people were like, oh, you rolled dumplings like 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.320 a Southerner And she's like, what, it is a whole 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.520 fucking thing it's like people hate each other. How else 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.440 how would you know those intricracies, you know what I 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.440 mean unless you were from there, like had history there. Yeah, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.000 well I mean I was just this is the thing 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.000 is that that that's persisted in the U s too. 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.080 You you still you still run into this stuff like 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.960 they're they're they're like there are definitely like Candidie restaurants 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.520 were like you probably shouldn't speak Mandarin. They're like there's 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.680 there's like this is this is still a thing. It's 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.160 not really talked about very much because it's like it's 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.560 it's kind of an internal Chinese thing. But you know, 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.120 the one place you actually really gotta see this, You 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:51.880 gotta see this from the Hong during the Hong Kong 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.880 protests in both sides, because like okay, so there there 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.560 there's a strain of this sort of like like there's 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.200 a strain of Chinese nationalism that's very sort of like 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.000 it was doing this like really very sort of like 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.520 anti Southern racism from you know, you get this from 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.280 a lot of the Chinese nationalists the CCP side. There's 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.560 another faction of like the Hong Kong protesters who's like 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.040 thing was like we're not actually Chinese because we're not 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.400 like the Northerners who are a communist and like evil, 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.520 which which is really funny because like you know, like okay, 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.000 the if you if you run through the actual history 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.680 of communism in China, it's like, okay, like like one 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.680 one one of the one of the largest communists like 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:33.440 strikes that ever happened was in Hong Kong. Like sure, fine, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.400 but you know, but obviously, like I'm simplifying all of 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.560 this enormously because it's very complicated. There's a lot of 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.360 regional ship that's going on here. Yeah, but so your 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.160 your thesis is that the person that started all of 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.160 this was like maybe like from the south or like 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.800 just like yeah, I mean that is that is definite, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:54.560 Like that is that is like the like that is 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.120 the most Cantonese asked name I've ever heard, like that 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.080 that that guy, that guy, that guy is definitely from 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.800 southern China. And yeah, my my thesis is specifically it's 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.800 this Cantonese guy going a funk. Those nerds litters, I 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.800 hate their I hate their asses, I hate their food. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.920 Their food at eating it makes me sick. But because 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.120 because it's the US that the subtlety of this gets 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.800 lost and everyone just runs with it is like Chinese 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.439 restaurant syndrome. Even though this is the this is this 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.239 is my theories, this is this is like this is 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:26.600 like kind of semi obscured like Chinese like internal grudge vat. 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.000 Like like knowing the origin point makes a lot more 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.040 sense now to be honest, like why would this be 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.840 some random like why would he specify a region like 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.560 a very specific region that that's just I don't I 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.800 don't know that that that that that's my theory. I 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.919 could be wrong about this, but all it fits with 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:49.560 all of the details, so it checks out. It checks out, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:54.000 I think. Yeah, So okay, alright, so so this this 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.639 letter happens and there's like a flurry of letters rather 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.400 people talking about this, and okay, I want to talk 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.080 about why this got picked up the way it does. Um, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.919 I'm gonna be yeah, this is this is I'm going 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.920 to read from every single article in this also goes 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:13.720 exactly the same way. So I'm gonna read from Men's 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.800 Health version, so you get this section of it. Before 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.720 I talked about why it's I think like not sufficient 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.560 to capture what was Happening mostly describes the late fifties 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.080 at a time of heightened anti Chinese sentiment. By the 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.520 nineteen sixties, domestic and international politics had shifted towards a 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.840 fairly clear anti communist agenda. In fact, he says, during 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.440 this time, anti Chinese sentiments were so widespread and accepted 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:39.560 that most Americans didn't consider their apprehension to be racial bias. Now, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.679 this is true as far as it goes. But we 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.840 need to go to ADS and Wenna come back from ADS. 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.040 I will tell em what else was going on turn 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.120 that week? All right, and we're back. We're back. We're 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.959 talking about how this like letter to like a journal 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:59.760 in New England suddenly became an entire like national American thing. Okay, 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.840 So the way this happened is that this got picked 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.600 up by the news. Now there's a huge New York 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.240 Times article about this, and that article is published on 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:17.240 May nineteenth, nineteen. Now, Sharine, do you know what else 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:22.320 was going on in May? I've heard a lot of 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.199 ship went down in the sixties. Yeah, so this is 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.720 this is right, This is like smack dab in the 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.520 middle of May sixty eight in France. This is this 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:39.560 is like one week after the Night of the Barricades UM. 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.160 Three days before this was published, the situationists who are 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.960 like these this like ultra left student organization who who 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.560 who at this point are occupying the Sorbonne like they 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.040 have fully taken control of their campus. They have run 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.080 the cops out, they have run the administration out. UM. 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.320 Three days before this is published, the students had the sorband, 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.960 reacting to a factory occupation they heard about, send out 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.240 this famous communicate calling for the occupation of all factories 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.720 in France. And like it fucking happens, Like the workers 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.000 in France take control of like a huge portion of 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.679 Francis factories, like the Reinault factories are under control of 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:18.080 the workers UM like by by by this time, like 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.200 this is happening, right the police have like the police 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.440 are fighting them, but they're losing. UM. Two days before 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.439 this article is published, UH, the Sorban sends this to 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:34.760 the Chinese consulate quote, shaking your boots, bureaucrats, the international 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.600 power of the workers councils will soon wipe you out. 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.920 Humanity won't be happy until the last bureacrat is hung 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.399 with the guts of the last capitalists long live, the 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.479 factory occupations long lived, the Great Chinese Proletarian Revolution evcted 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.920 twenties seven, betrayed by the Stalinist bureaucrats. It goes on 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.760 and on like this. This is what they're sending to 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.640 the Maoists, right like that, that is that is how 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:02.159 far left these people are. Like they they're telling the 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:06.120 Maoist shaking your boot spirit craft, the international power of work, 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.040 those councils will soon wipe you out, like it is 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.239 wild in sense. Yeah, I mean the fact that this 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:18.959 is happening all during all of that, and I don't know, 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:23.040 that's no, yeah, no one, it's it's really important. I 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:24.920 have never read an article that actually puts this together, 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.280 and it was like, it's not just that going on, right, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.879 Like you know, if you like the situation in France, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.640 they are a week and a half out from de Gaul, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.120 who was the president, literally fleeing the country because he's 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.359 so convinced that they're about to lose the country to communism. 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:38.160 Like well, and I should say when I say communism, 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.080 by the way, part of that message to the to 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.480 the Maoist is down with the state. Revolutionary Marxisms like 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.720 that that that these are these people are like these 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.200 people have are Marxists who have gone like so far 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.919 left they've essentially become anarchists. It's it's wild and mean, 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.600 you know. And also what's happened, like the prog Spring 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.439 is happening during the middle of this um. This is 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.880 also like this is a month after the Holy Week 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.720 uprising in the US, which is so after MLK was killed. 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.639 There were these like probably the most intense riots the 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.520 US has ever seen, like even like even more so 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.360 than like the ones we saw in the Holy Week riot. 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.040 Like they were like like there there were there were 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.879 like like thousands of paratroopers We're being deployed to like 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.399 kill rioters. Yeah, like nuts, Yeah, like that was that 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.440 was probably the closest, like some of the closest the 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.040 US has ever had to just like actually having revolution 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.000 in the government, losing control of the entire country and 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.679 like and while this article is coming out, like there 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.880 are still even in May, the Holy Week up risings 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:45.160 in April, but like even I like even in May, 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.960 there are still people on the streets fighting the cops. 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:52.040 Like while while this article is being written, and you know, 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:56.960 if you look at the there's something about perse on 0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:00.359 that entire year. I mean it's wild like six sixty 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.560 like that that that year is just the year like 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.760 the entire world went. I mean there's like like like 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:07.959 they they I can't remember if they act successfully over 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:09.760 through the government. They like almost over to the government 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:12.640 of Pakistan. Like a whole bunch of students get shot 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:14.600 in Mexico because they were trying to bring down the government. 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:18.639 Like it's everywhere. There was all this stuff going on. Um. 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.280 And you know, also the ever thing that is happening 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.080 is we're two years into the Culture Revolution and it's 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.240 kind of interesting because but by sixty eight we're kind 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.840 of into the backlash phase of the culture Revolution, where 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:32.720 most of what's happening is that the sort of various 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.240 rebel factions that formed the nine seven and nine sixty 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:38.000 six are just getting like slaughtered by the sort of 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.399 like state factions. And it's more it's it's it's a 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:43.480 culture revolution. It's really complicated, but like bye bye. By 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.000 this point, the sort of like revolution part of it 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:49.959 has like kind of calmed down and it's more the 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:52.840 state in its sort of new form taking control. But 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:55.359 you know, if you're living through this, right, it looks 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.840 like the culture revolutions happens in in in sixty six, 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.119 and then you get six and then suddenly there was 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.040 a cultural revolution happening literally everywhere. And this is the 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:07.239 context of the MSG scared like kicks off in right. 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.720 It starts in like right in the middle of arguably 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:16.080 the two most radical months of the entire twentieth century. Wow. Yeah, 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:17.840 And and this is this is the kind of ship 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.200 that starts like just an absolute mania in the American 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.160 mind that is powerful enough that like sixty years later, 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:30.399 it's still around. I mean, it feels like the it 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:34.520 happening as such like a manic time, like people were 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.359 probably already like kind of feeling that energy. Right, it 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.000 was like like everything it was directed everywhere, even at 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.320 this article. Yeah. And I genuinely think if if this 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.160 had happened two months later, two months earlier, I don't 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:48.439 think I don't think there would have been like a 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:50.600 big scare about it. Like it might have been a 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.880 thing I stuck around for a bit. But I think 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.080 the fact that the end of the the New York Times 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.560 article happen came out exactly like in the middle of 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:00.000 May sixty eight, and that like the original one comes 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.680 out like right before the like the original article that 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:04.040 gets set to the thing comes out like a couple 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:06.360 of weeks before the Holy Week up Rising. I think 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.720 it was the fact that it was exactly in this 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.960 moment where everyone on Earth is if you're living through this, 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.320 like this is the capital our revolution like has come 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:20.359 and you know, and that that shattered everyone's brains. Like 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:22.639 I don't know, I want like do people remember what 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.840 it was like like when like when like the height 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:29.920 of twenty was happening, Like just how sort of wild 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:32.119 like there was just psychologically I'm telling you there was 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.399 like an energy. Yeah, yeah, that's collective strange. I mean, 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.200 like obviously it's different than it was at sixty eight, 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:39.760 but I really do agree with you, like if it 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:47.800 happened in January, yeah, and you know, I so. The 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:51.160 the other thing that's interesting about about this whole sort 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.280 of like Chinese restaurant syndrome is that you could actually 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:58.879 track it spread like across other countries by sort of 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:03.040 like moments of like heak anti Chinese like sentiment. It 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.240 also anti Japanese sentiment to a lesser extent, because that 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:07.199 that that sort of replaces the anti Chinese stuff by 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.439 time and nineties, but well not replaces. But it's like 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:12.960 it's like the dominant mode of like we have a 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:16.240 person we needs to be afraid of an East Asia. Um. 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:18.280 But there's interesting, okay, So if if if, if you, 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.919 if you look up um like he was looking for you, 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.320 like medical stuff about Chinese restaurant syndimeme. One of the 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:26.199 things you will find is a case report of the 0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:29.200 Indian Journal of Critical Medical Care from two thousands seventeen 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:31.520 claiming that they were treating a patient who got Chinese 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:35.680 restaurant syndrome and like couldn't speak because the thing in 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:40.479 the back of his throat had like inflamed, and you know, 0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:42.000 and then they had this whole thing about like this 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:43.879 this is like this is like a serious disorder, and 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:47.639 they beifically cited that letter to the editor from sixty 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:52.680 eight the power of that thing. And you know, well, okay, 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:55.200 so if you look what what was going on in 0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:58.960 in India in two thousand seventeen, and it turns out 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.280 the thing that's going on is like a giant rise 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:05.359 in anti Chinese sentiment, culminating in the twenty seventeen Indian 0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:08.199 Chinese Border incidents. Where do you remember when all those 0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:09.639 guys are like beating each other to death in the 0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:14.280 mountains with sticks. Yeah, I do remember that. I's so 0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:17.120 sad and many times in my life, and especially post pandemic, 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:20.040 my brain is broken. But I do vaguely remember that 0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:22.040 I had kind of forgotten about it. And then and 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.320 then I just look at this article and sol seen. 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:26.960 I was like, wait, hold on, hold on, wasn't that 0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:29.800 wasn't didn't didn't that happen in twenty seventeen? And it's 0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:32.840 funny because like, yeah, right, CenTra rise again, suddenly Chinese 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:38.560 restaurant center reappears. It's it's really, it's really incredible. It's 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:42.400 it's yeah, it's an incredible set of brain worms. Um. 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:45.879 I just I mean, this is definitely not on topic, 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.960 I guess, but even just seeing like COVID being blamed 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.600 on China, like there's almost like like a way for 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.120 ignorant people just to point the finger at China, which 0:27:57.160 --> 0:28:01.520 is really fucking shitty. It's so shitty. It's yeah, I mean, 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:04.680 I think it's it's just sort of like like one 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:06.280 of the things you sort of need to have a 0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:08.639 national project, is that in order for you to be. 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:10.520 In order for you to be like a nation, you 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:12.320 have to have you have to have another you have 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:14.800 to have people who aren't part of the nation, and 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:16.960 the US is prett effectively they have they you know, 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:18.920 they can have the sort of rotating cast of people 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:22.639 who like aren't like from the nation. Right, if you 0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:24.560 want to stay in, there are people that need to 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.919 stay out. Yeah, So sometimes it's with Mexico. Sometimes sometimes 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:30.280 you get it with sort of like like internal subversion 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:33.480 from like black people are like indienous people. But yeah, 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:35.320 you know, they have this rotating cast. China is always 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.000 one of the ones that come back to because it's 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:40.640 just big and there's a lot of them, and you know, 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.560 people are easily feared by it. Like I think it's 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:48.200 like it's unknown and maybe people don't understand it very well, 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:51.680 that don't look into it themselves and wanted to be educated. 0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:55.560 But forever reason, people fear it so easily, and it's 0:28:55.600 --> 0:29:03.080 so bizarre. It's so bizarre. Yeah, it sucks. Oh yeah, Okay, 0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:04.680 So I'm gonna do an ad break and then we're 0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:07.120 gonna talk about more of this stuff because it keeps 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:12.280 going and we're back, all right. So obviously we're dealing 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.160 with sort of anti Chinese sentiment and anti Japanese sentiments 0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:18.440 as you know, jes sentiment escalating as the safety surting 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:21.640 into like the eighties and nineties. But there's more going 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:25.120 on here. Um. Part of the reason, you know, back 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:29.280 like this in theory could have been about like soy sauce, right, Like, 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:31.480 there's a lot of things that they could have picked 0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:34.880 out of that to be the thing about, but they 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:37.880 picked M. S. G. And part of the reason they 0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.360 picked MSGS that this is the period when people start 0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:45.960 like figuring out that food additives exist mm hmmm, and 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.720 people don't get really sort of touchy about it. And 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:54.920 actually Ralph Nader uh famous. Yeah, so he's around in 0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:59.280 the sixties, Um, because he's old as ship. Yeah yeah, 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:01.120 I mean he's you know, okay, so I I give 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:04.120 I give him credit for for like he has probably 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:08.040 saved as many lives as like any other American, single 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.040 American you can name, by being the guy who like 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:14.520 lobbied to have seatbelts in cars being mandatory. I think 0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:18.000 that was not before because the US is a like 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:22.400 truly deranged country. Yeah, he wasn't half bad most of 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:26.160 the time. Yeah, but but come on, he's also one 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.200 of the guys who's like the big pusher for getting 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:30.840 the US government to study MSG and a lot of 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:35.440 other food editives and like nine, so you know, and 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.240 like there's a bunch of other food aims that they're 0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:40.160 studying the health effects of and and on the one hand, like, yeah, 0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:42.360 it probably is good to study the effects of like 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:47.680 food editives because like I don't know, companies do stuff 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:50.640 that sucks all the time, and so it is good 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:53.320 to study within your food. On the other hand, Okay, 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:58.400 it's gonna sound really ignorant, so I apologize. What where 0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:01.560 again you already said this? Where was that foul? Where 0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:03.719 was MSG found? Is it created in a lab? Like 0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:08.240 what's the Yeah, but by this point it's basically created 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:10.240 a lab. The first time someone was able to distill 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:15.320 it was they did this whole distillation process of seaweed seed. Yeah. 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:17.640 But but but by this point, it's no worries. Yeah, 0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:20.040 I know, like by bye bye bye, I mean even 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.320 by like the early actually twenties, I think it's it's 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:28.720 mostly being produced artificially, which is probably but it's yeah, yeah, 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:30.240 and it makes it taste better. But like, like you 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:32.200 know it is something that like you like you can't 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:35.600 find it like in in dashi, Like you can find 0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:37.320 it in like soup broths and stuff like from the 0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:41.320 way from seaweed. So it's it's not like I didn't 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:45.120 know that. I've known about MSG for most of my 0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:48.280 life and I never like, for whatever reason, growing up, 0:31:48.640 --> 0:31:51.800 we always associated with sodium like salt salty. Yeah, well, 0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:53.640 I mean it is right, like it is a kind 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:57.000 of salt. Yeah, but like I don't know, like people 0:31:57.080 --> 0:31:58.800 people have this whole thing like oh, it's artificial. It's 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:01.280 like like yeah, we may kid artificially, but like it's not. 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:04.880 It's not like it's not a thing that you can 0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:07.040 get out of plants. It's just that we don't do 0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:10.200 it that way because it's easier. Yeah, the source of 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:12.400 it is the artificial. But also like you're gonna be 0:32:12.440 --> 0:32:14.560 a stickler on this one thing when you eat, like 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.720 I don't know, so many other drink so many other things, 0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:21.600 Like there was cocaine and coke. Yeah, it's I think 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:25.320 every every every every every American like in nineteen sixty 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:28.200 nine is like by by their body volume, drinking two 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.200 pounds of lead a year. So like it's like like 0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:33.480 this is the thing you're gonna stick up. Yeah, well 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:35.440 and and you know, and this is this is this 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.440 is this is sort of the problem with with what 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:39.200 Ralph Nader is doing with this sort of like pushing 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.440 the government investigation of it is that like you know, 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.239 like I don't know how racist nine nine Ralph Nader was. 0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:50.600 My My guess is that I don't think that his 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:53.040 big thing was we need to study this because it's 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:56.720 the dirty Chinese like salt or whatever. I I think 0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:58.680 I think mostly just wanted to you wanted the thing 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.240 to study food editives. I could be wrong about that. 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:03.000 I don't know. I haven't I've looked into this exactly 0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:05.520 zero percent. But like you know, the problem is that 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.280 like once this sort of racial panic is going, like 0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:09.960 you can't put you can't put the sort of cork 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:14.280 back in the bottle, right and you know, Okay, so 0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:19.760 there have been a bunch of studies about this um 0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:24.480 and like but but you know, okay, so the problem 0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:26.760 with what's happening is that because of the way ms 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.560 she has been sort of racialized, like the studies don't matter, 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.719 like it's it just does not matter what anyone actually 0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:35.400 sort of writes about it until you get an actual 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:40.600 cultural change because the study science is irrelevant. Um, they 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:42.680 have the study to justify a bunch of things, and 0:33:42.720 --> 0:33:45.960 that's the only study they care about. Yeah, it's it's 0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:47.640 it's it's like the like vector, that's like the like 0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:51.120 the fake factory of vaccines cause autism ship Like no, 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.720 it's they just believe this. They have one paper that's 0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:59.600 literally a joke. Exactly does it? Yeah, that's like but 0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:02.320 this event, but like yeah, there's a million others like that. 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:04.760 By the way, that study, I want to point this out. 0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:07.160 The methodology of that study was they asked parents who 0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:09.320 thought their kids had developed autism because of the vaccine 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.800 if they thought their kids had developed autism because of 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.919 the vaccine, and then the parents said yes, And that's 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:18.880 the study. That's the study. Yeah, that's a lot of study. 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.200 It's a joke, like it's it's literally a Twitter pool. 0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:25.239 They like got published and they're attracted because al right, 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:28.680 like this this is the scientific basis of all this bullshit, 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:32.600 and that's what qualifies is a fucking study. Then you 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:34.480 could you could, I don't know, you can. You can 0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:36.840 publish fucking anything if you put your mind to it. 0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:38.520 This is this. This, This is what I'm telling all 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:41.960 of you, like follow your dreams, try to get something published. 0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:45.520 They published this bullshit, so like you know, I'm gonna 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:48.200 I'm gonna do a study. Yeah, well the other thing, 0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:50.319 the other thing specifically, like there's a real problem here 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:53.000 with like this is everything with medical studies, because like 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:55.120 you can have a medical study that you get published 0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:57.920 with a sample size of one because it's you found 0:34:57.920 --> 0:34:59.480 a thing and a guy and you're like, oh, I'm 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.400 gonna publis this, but you like medical studies, like you 0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:06.319 could just like you could publish any bullshit and like 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:11.920 it sucks. But okay, so all right, like lots of 0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:14.520 so after this, there are lots of studies by lots 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:18.520 of people, and like mostly what they find is they 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:20.840 can't find any Okay. So there's some like initial studies 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:23.680 that like find some alarming stuff in mice. But the 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.359 problem with these studies that what they're doing is okay, Yeah, 0:35:26.360 --> 0:35:28.319 it turns out if you take a mouse and you 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:30.719 just like fill a syringe with MSG and inject them 0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:35.760 with it, it's bad for them. But like yeah, yeah, 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:39.200 you would you injected a mouse with pure salt and 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:42.200 bad things happen, Like yes, if you took a human 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:45.320 being and you injected fucking a third of a cup 0:35:45.719 --> 0:35:49.000 of MSG directly into their veins, it would probably be 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:53.960 bad for them, like okay, you know, right, um, And 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:56.359 that they found out. The conclusion from that was basically like, okay, 0:35:56.480 --> 0:35:58.960 if someone ate like a third of a cup of 0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:03.000 MSG raw having not eaten for like forty eight hours, 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.520 it would probably do things that are not great for you. 0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:08.040 Can't you say that. I've had a bunch of other 0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:11.360 like like like I don't know if if if you 0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:13.160 didn't eat for twenty four hours and eight a third 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:15.520 or a couple of salts, like that's probably that's not 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:17.960 good for you. Like I don't do that, so like 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:21.839 you know, okay, very very specific circumstances have to light 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:25.480 it up for you to have reaction. So there's a 0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:29.040 study from two thousands where they also this is also 0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:31.880 another empty stomach study, by the way, because they've okay, 0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.880 no one has ever been able to replicate like any 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:39.120 of these results with a person eating food that has 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:40.719 MSG in it. They've every been able to do it. 0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:43.000 They've been able to get some results. If you have 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:46.319 people eat like basically pure MSG and have not eaten 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:50.520 any food like around it. Yeah, it's like you're, OK, 0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:55.080 that's useless because the the molecule at that point it 0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:57.960 probably interacts with other things and that's you know what 0:36:57.960 --> 0:36:59.919 I mean, Like if it's just I'm not the act 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:03.600 will I don't know. Yeah, I'm a very good at chemistry, 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:06.359 so I'm gonna what the chemistry nerds arguing I did 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:10.520 fail a p chem so great, Yeah, I I look 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.200 how I only had to take chemistry in so I 0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:15.040 just didn't take a p KEM because like I suck, 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.279 Like I took a CHM like my first my freshman year. 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:20.560 Now it's like, let's not do this again. I can't 0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:23.160 do this. Just the thing. I wanted to be a 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:26.120 psychiatrist for a really long time. But failing AP chemistry 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:28.600 and just experiencing chemistry, I was like, I can't. Yeah, 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:32.719 it sucks. It's the worst, but okay. So the reason 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:35.320 I was talking about the vaccines cause as like autism 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:37.279 ship is that there was another thing with MSG where 0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:41.920 people were claiming it was causing asthma and it no, 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:45.920 they had they had another looking incredibly elaborate pseudoscience bullshit 0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:52.239 about like the MSG like getting absorbed, like getting absorbed 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:57.160 improperly through like like fetal membranes. That's like completely nonsense, 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:01.840 Like it doesn't. Yeah, people people like what what White 0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:04.560 people love to say that the diseases they've gotten from 0:38:04.760 --> 0:38:07.680 fucking the fact that like they're they're the air in 0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:11.359 their house is n c O two by volume and 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:14.279 like and and could because because they've decided to run 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:18.080 an entire country by just putting fucking trucking yards everywhere, 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:22.359 like okay, a finger to point out right, it can't 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:26.200 be Yeah, you know you know what I mean, Like, yeah, 0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:28.520 I should. I should make this clear. By the way, 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:30.080 when when I when I when I when when when 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:32.120 I say when I say that like autisms, I'm not sorry. 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:35.160 When when I say that asthma specifically is when I'm 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:38.440 talking about the bad air specifically talking about asthma, I'm 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:40.319 not talking about autism with that that that that is 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:46.440 not what causes autism or whatever, like and it's cool 0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:50.520 and also funk autism speaks, yes, yeah, but yeah, I 0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:53.120 want to put that on the record. That's what I mean. 0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:55.400 I'm not I'm not saying that trucks cause autism. They 0:38:55.440 --> 0:39:00.640 don't like yeah, yeah, so okay, but there's a lot 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:05.040 of like incredibly weird, racial, very dumb, anti scientific panic 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:09.360 about it. It's possible that there existed so ofvisually it 0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:11.200 was about like like anyone who eats this will have 0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:14.520 these sentiments, right, And then over time the argument got 0:39:14.560 --> 0:39:17.960 sort of fizz down to there might be a group 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:19.640 of people who in the population, like a small group 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:22.759 people who are like specifically sensitive to it, and that's 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:28.040 probably plausible, Like there's some experimental evidence that shows that 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:30.000 there could be a group of people for whom they're 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:32.759 more sensitive to it than a regular person and I 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:38.359 don't know, people of allergies like whatever, like yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:40.840 Like it's not like like yeah, it's it's not a 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:43.160 thing to sort of like like yeah, I don't know, 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.560 like if you're a person who gets allergy reactions to ship, 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.440 like yeah, that's allergies, right, but like it's it's not 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:53.520 the sort of like I don't know if the panic 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.719 about it is utterly unjustified. There may be if there 0:39:56.760 --> 0:39:59.480 may be a group of people who it has some 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:01.640 effect on because there are a lerger to it or whatever. 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:06.279 But yeah, imagine imagine demonizing peanuts because there's a group 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:08.160 of people that can't eat peanuts, you know what I mean, 0:40:08.239 --> 0:40:11.680 Like that's that's that's why, like, why would you ever 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:14.960 do that. To be fair, I I am okay with 0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:18.720 demonizing peanuts specifically, specifically if it gets people to stop 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.480 fucking were shipping that bastard Jimmy Carter, who was a 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:27.080 neoliberal ghoul, and his reputation has been fucking just like, like, 0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:29.680 his reputation has been saved entirely by the fact that 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:31.840 every single person who came after him was an utterly 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:37.440 deranged war criminal and his war crime was like suppressing 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:41.680 well he was a peanut farmer. Oh sorry, sorry, this 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:43.400 is this is this is this is the this is 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:52.040 this is the the deep Jimmy Carter lore. Okay, yeah, okay, 0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:54.000 but you know, all right, So going going back, I 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:56.080 think so this was the kind of thing that like, 0:40:57.600 --> 0:41:00.279 you know, people avoiding msg is just kind of had 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:02.360 just kind of been like like a part of daily life, 0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:04.600 Like it was just like a thing that existed in 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:06.919 the world, but it wasn't like at a certain point 0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:09.120 it became the kind of thing that people would talk 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:12.120 about like in conversation, and like they did you know, 0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:13.959 you could just get people to do ant MSG rans, 0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:17.240 but it wasn't really a sort of like mainstream political 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:19.799 issue in the way that it had been like in 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.160 that st nine where the well, the only thing that 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:24.200 happened is in the nineties the FDA did to study 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:27.680 about it. The f d A was like, it's fine, 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:31.719 don't don't don't eat three d grams of it at 0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:34.879 one time, Like, but as long as long as you're 0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:37.680 not sitting there like eating MSG raw out of the 0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:42.520 fucking Like do you think about like hyd syrup? Why? Yeah, 0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:45.680 and like by by volume, hypric dose, chord and syrup 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:49.439 was killed way more people than although also now now 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:52.319 there's like a whole thing about like MSG causing obesity, 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:55.839 which I I don't know if that's true or not. 0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:58.600 I think their studies are fucking whack, but you know 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:02.000 it's it's it might cause obesity like every other food 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:07.479 that the US has made in the last twenty years. Yeah, yeah, 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:09.839 and what what what one one day we will do 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:13.920 a episode about like the politics of anti fatnists because 0:42:13.920 --> 0:42:18.040 it's fucked but today we're we're doing this episode and okay, 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:21.040 so you know, every once in a while, the way 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:22.480 the way of this stuff work. Every once in a 0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:25.120 while there would be a sort of like like a 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:28.040 mainstream like Asian American figure who would talk about it. 0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:30.520 For example, there's there's there's a Korean chef named David 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:33.799 Chang who talks about it um and he he did 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:36.000 some like he gave speeches about it and the start 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:37.840 demonization of it, but it didn't really get back to 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:42.600 mainshame discourse until when are Good Friends a Ginomoto. The 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:46.040 people who made the stuff in the first place hired 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:49.319 a bunch of Asian American like celebrities to do a 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:53.080 pro MSG campaign. So they hired Eddie Huongg who's like 0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:55.200 a writer and chef who's like probably most famous for 0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.319 being the guy who wrote Fresh off the Boat, And 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:00.040 so that they have this whole sort of campaign and 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:02.520 this like takes off right like he he this is 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:04.799 this is one of those things that was like completely 0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:09.080 forgotten that happened in that no one now remembers, because 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:12.239 this happens like before COVID, like before we had the 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:17.080 lockdowns and before I'll be honest, it escapes my memory. 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:19.720 I I have no member this happening either. But apparently 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.440 it did. I don't know. I was I think this 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:23.799 is still well the I think this is well the 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:28.239 election was still going on, so yeah, the best time 0:43:28.280 --> 0:43:33.640 to do that year everything happens. But okay, so you know, 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:36.439 this campaign like takes off like like ny Hwang's on 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:39.680 on NBC and to be like the talk show circuit 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:44.319 with Jenny Am advocating for like so that their whole 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:46.600 thing is that they wanted to remove Chinese restaurants sent 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:50.719 from the dictionary and they had this whole like hashtag 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:55.719 redefinance CRS is like the Redefining Chinese Restaurant syndrome and 0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:58.880 this is like a whole thing, and you know, and 0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:00.680 there's there's there's something okay, but this was one of 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:01.960 the things that sort of drew me to the story 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:04.600 because if you look at the press for this, right, 0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:08.920 it's like activists pressure maryon Webster and like that's kind 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:12.880 of true, Like it's superficially it is kind of what happened, 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:15.319 and like, yeah, I'm glad the dictionary change the entry 0:44:15.360 --> 0:44:17.280 to say like this is like outdated and kind of bullshit, 0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:24.759 but like, okay, think about what actually happened here, right, 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:29.759 A company that makes a product hired a bunch of 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:33.080 a bunch of sort of Asian American like big celebrity 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.920 people to do a marketing campaign for them in the 0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:40.919 name of anti racism, which like, yes, I I am 0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:43.200 glad we are addressing the racism in our own MSG. 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:46.080 However common I feel like it's a really sort of 0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:49.719 like it's a it's a really literal example of the 0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:52.960 kind of like vopidity and listlessness of like Asian American 0:44:53.000 --> 0:44:56.040 identity and culture and politics like pre COVID, like this 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.719 is this is this is this hands something like early January, right, 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:01.120 so COVID is still sort of like some disease in China, 0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:04.240 Like we haven't hit full of racism yet. And again 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:07.680 like this is not like an activist campaign, you know, 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.000 I mean, like activists get on board with it, I guess, 0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:14.239 but like activism is doing an ad campaign for a 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:20.760 company that makes salt right. Yeah, it's not exactly grassroots 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:25.840 or yea, and and you know, okay, and it works 0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:27.600 right like this this is a thing that like the 0:45:27.640 --> 0:45:31.239 Asian American community like picks up right, I mean sort of. 0:45:31.480 --> 0:45:33.960 I don't know, I I don't remember it, but I 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:35.960 when I look looking looking back on the articles and 0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:39.399 hashtags and stuff. It's like, wow, they got lots of tweets. 0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:41.760 But you know, I I think I think the reason 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:48.719 that this worked is is because of the sort of 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:51.520 self conception of like Asian American nous. Is this like 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.560 backstory of like like immigrants stepping off the boat and 0:45:54.560 --> 0:45:56.400 they start a restaurant and then your kids get an 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:58.960 education to the answer of the professional class and like 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:01.560 there isn't I don't know, like this is in fact, 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:02.880 this is literally like part of the reason I'm doing 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:04.760 is also like this is literally what happened to my family. 0:46:05.160 --> 0:46:07.480 Like they like they showed up from Taiwan, they worked 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:10.360 in a restaurant, then they opened a restaurant, and then 0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:14.920 like I don't know, like every successive generation, well okay, 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:17.799 I was gonna say every every successive generation got more 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.520 like professionally, but like I have a bunch of talktors something. 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.880 But but then they also produced me, who's a podcaster. 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:28.920 So I'm defying Asian American stereotypes bite being more dipship 0:46:29.000 --> 0:46:32.960 than my parents. But you know, like this has become 0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:35.560 like this single sort of cultural narrative of like what 0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:37.799 it is to be in Asian American, right, Like, you 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:41.680 see this in every single story that Asian American media 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:44.040 like has produced in the last like ten years, it 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:46.879 has one plot. Right, There's a family in the US. 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:49.080 They're trying to fit in. They almost always have some 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.400 kind of small business, and then something appears that challenges 0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:56.200 their ability to like assimilate into American society. This is 0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:57.560 and then you know they deal with it and that's 0:46:57.560 --> 0:46:59.560 the end. Right, This is a plot of crazy rich 0:46:59.600 --> 0:47:01.440 Asians a pot of everything ever all at once. The 0:47:01.440 --> 0:47:02.880 plot of Fresh Out the Boat is the pout of 0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:05.360 the fucking c W Kung Fu show. It is the plot. 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:09.560 Like literally everything that like we produce has one plot, 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:13.960 and it's this. And the reason why is it's you know, 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:15.799 there's the reason why this is the only sort of 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:17.919 like piece of media that that the sort of Asian 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:19.600 American culture class have been able to produce. Is the 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:22.480 reason why all the fucking activism and ad campaigns are 0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:25.520 just like, fucking we got hired by a company and 0:47:25.520 --> 0:47:28.000 we're gonna talk about where racism racism is bad about 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:31.040 this company can sell more product. Like, the reason is 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:34.160 this is because this is an incredibly marketable self conception 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.560 of Asian American nous like that the conception of it 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:40.440 as being restaurant owners is there because it's it's it's 0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:43.719 a form of culture that can be sold to white people, right. It's, hey, 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:45.759 look we're different, we eat wacky food, but you can 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:47.239 eat it too, And ultimately we're all in this for 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:49.319 capitalism in the patriarchal family, like just like you are. 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:54.240 Don't worry, It's gonna be fine. And you know that 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:58.160 that really depresses me because this this is a moment 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:01.479 that demands something else. And I think that's why kind 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:05.200 of like I think that's why the sort of mainstream 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:08.960 like Asian American reaction to like, you know, like that 0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:12.759 there was there was another there was another Asian woman 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:15.359 like who got stabbed to death like two weeks ago, 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:18.640 and there was like fucking no coverage of it, Like 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:20.520 nobody gave a ship. It's just gotten to the point 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:24.960 where like this happens, like six people report on it 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:28.000 and then everyone just sort of moves onto their life. Yeah, 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:31.080 And I think the reason why this sort of like 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:33.640 stop Asian hate ship has gotten to a you know, 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:36.360 like it's gotten it gets gone through the sign cycle 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:38.960 where everyone like had the signs up and then they 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:41.320 took them down, and so you know, like and I 0:48:41.560 --> 0:48:43.719 think the reason why it was it turned into this 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:46.239 sort of like like did the organizing turning this like 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:49.200 incredibly vapid like put a sign in your store like 0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:51.680 two to hashtag stuff like is because of this is 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.319 is because what like what what it means to be 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:56.520 sort of Asian American has been hollowed out and hauled 0:48:56.560 --> 0:48:58.440 out and hold out and sold and sold and sold 0:48:58.440 --> 0:49:01.319 for just decades and decades and decades, and now, you know, 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:04.319 like in a time when it's actually sort of like 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:07.319 you know, when it when it's really in danger and 0:49:07.320 --> 0:49:10.279 it's called to action, it hasn't been able to do 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:14.640 much right. And well, yeah, pointing out the film and 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:19.160 TV thing is really important because I mean, so many 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:22.040 marginalized communities have this experience. But I think China, like 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:26.480 Asian culture in particular, I think it really people if 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.120 they're ignorant and they just see what's depicted on media, 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:32.000 they don't see them as three dimensional beings, you know 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:34.439 what I mean, what they have is like a very 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:39.279 hollow version of a human and so I don't know, 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:41.320 it's it kind of upsets me because I feel like 0:49:41.360 --> 0:49:44.400 media is the first thing people learn things from, whether 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:47.120 it's film or TV or whatever. But yeah, well and 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:48.759 also I think it's I think it's part of the 0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:54.520 reason why, like the way that those those depictions sort 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:57.880 of obscure class where you know, because these things, right, 0:49:57.920 --> 0:49:59.319 like a lot of these families are poor, but they're 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:02.319 still business owner, right and that that's like like if 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:04.440 you're a poor American as well, it's because you're a 0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:06.960 business and you're like a sort of struggling like American entrepreneur. 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:09.719 And this obscure is the fact that there there is 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:12.160 a massive Asian American just underclass people who are like 0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:15.640 delivery drivers or work in warehouses or you know, I 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:17.239 mean like they're they're there. Who could there are groups 0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:19.279 of people who like come to the US from China, 0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:23.960 who you know, like live in like basically completely isolated 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:26.400 communities in part of Chinatown where they're only speaking Chinese 0:50:26.480 --> 0:50:28.360 and they just sucking. Like there are people who have 0:50:28.360 --> 0:50:30.680 to do a bunch of like warehouse ship and then 0:50:30.719 --> 0:50:33.439 they leave and that's it, right, like, and these these 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:37.080 people this ship never you like, you never actually get 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:41.120 any kind of sort of class analysis because the way 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:42.960 that media thinks about Asian Americans is like there's there's 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:44.920 one of they're either one or three things. They're a 0:50:44.960 --> 0:50:48.680 business owner, they're like a rich professionals like a doctor 0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:51.360 or something, or they're like the fucking people on Blink 0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:55.759 where they're just like super rich assholes. And that that 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:58.879 allows I think, like a specific kind of anti Asian 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:02.520 politics to work that like Asian people are seen this 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:05.359 sort of like perpetual like for an elite, and it's 0:51:05.400 --> 0:51:10.239 like no, I don't know, like it's it's just not 0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:12.880 you know, it's it's not true and and it and 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:15.320 it means that when you get like Asian American political movements, 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:17.480 like the sort of stuff antiation hating, right, like you 0:51:17.560 --> 0:51:20.440 have like the guy who founded door Dash, right is 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:24.040 like is a nation is like a Chinese American guy, right, 0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:25.920 He's like he used to he's a tech billionaire. He 0:51:26.000 --> 0:51:27.600 used to be like an emany Like you know, you 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:30.080 would have the stop Asian hate advance, Like this fucking 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:32.880 guy is on their light, is up on the stage 0:51:32.880 --> 0:51:34.799 talking about anti agent hate and it's like, Okay, this 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:40.040 guy has like brutally and horribly exploited like literally millions 0:51:40.040 --> 0:51:42.719 of Asian Americans. But you know, there's there's there's there's 0:51:42.719 --> 0:51:46.800 no there's never gonna be reckoning with that because success 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:50.279 and he's he's capitalist, like he's achieved the capitalist dream 0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:52.439 or whatever. The ship and and I I mean because 0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:55.480 because because Asian American contentia has been flattened in this way, 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:59.480 like those people are just completely invisible and it it 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:07.239 sucks and I hate it and yeah, yeah, I it's 0:52:07.280 --> 0:52:09.239 just I don't know, there's nothing good. I can like 0:52:09.800 --> 0:52:12.960 anything I can say to make anything better. But I 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:16.840 think it's just I don't know. Maybe we can do 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:20.400 an episode one day about like film and TV and stuff, 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:23.799 because I think it really starts there unfortunately, like like 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:27.560 it's it's silly, but people that don't know a Chinese 0:52:27.640 --> 0:52:29.719 person will see a Chinese person on their TV and 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:33.560 be like, that's the only Chinese person I've ever seen 0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:35.239 in my life. And I'm gonna make assumptions about the 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:38.480 whole race now. But one day I'm gonna do an 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:40.719 We're gonna do an episode that's entirely me shipping on 0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:44.480 Jackie Chan. People are gonna get really mad at me. 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:47.960 But funk that guy, that's a hot take. He started 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:50.279 his career as a fucking scamp. That was literally his 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:53.160 first thing was he was a scap. And he's yeah, 0:52:53.239 --> 0:52:56.480 he's the fucking homophote piece of shit. Fuck him. Uh yeah, 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:59.520 done your reparable damage for this episode. Let's do it. Yeah, 0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:01.440 all right? That that will that will be something we 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:03.040 are We are now to the part of the episode 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:08.920 where we are teasing you with subsequent episode. But yeah, 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:12.120 but yeah, I don't know, And it's a little bit 0:53:12.200 --> 0:53:15.560 upsetting how these are really important movements are just like 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:19.279 they the plateau and they become like this vapid thing 0:53:19.320 --> 0:53:23.919 like you're saying, Like, I think that gives people such 0:53:23.960 --> 0:53:26.400 an easy out of like quote unquote being an ally 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:28.920 or supporting because they think they're doing something by like 0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:32.480 holding up a sign or something without really internalizing or 0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:38.000 spreading the awareness that is necessary. And uh, I don't know. 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:41.399 I I guess the thing I want to end on 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:44.319 also is me being piste off at a bunch of 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:46.840 Asian American kids in the saets. So one of the 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:48.600 stories you will hear a lot if you're studying Asian 0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:51.160 American politics, like is the story that, like the term 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:54.880 Asian American was invented by these like activists who actually 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:57.839 were like doing a bunch of stuff eight um, these 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:00.680 like student active like this radical student activists, and that's true. 0:54:01.280 --> 0:54:03.320 But the thing you have to understand about those people 0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:08.000 is that all of those people were like like all 0:54:08.080 --> 0:54:11.319 those people were basically like, we're third world ists. And 0:54:12.239 --> 0:54:14.480 part of the reason this whole politics collapses, well a 0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:17.000 part of the reason part of what happened was like 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:19.839 part of the demands of these students in these sort 0:54:19.840 --> 0:54:21.200 of like radical student groups like but you know, the 0:54:21.320 --> 0:54:22.880 their form to sort of like support the sort of 0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:25.840 like black radical student groups into like advocate for themselves. 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:28.080 But like one of their big demands was they wanted 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:32.840 cultural studies departments in in American universities, and they got them. 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:36.200 But you know, okay, so what what what what are 0:54:36.239 --> 0:54:39.120 those cultural studies like departments? They basically just became these 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:43.080 giant traps through radicals where instead of like overthrowing the government, 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:46.200 you like come do this cushy job in academia, and 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:48.120 like all of all of the sort of like old 0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:50.839 radicals like from that area either like got regular jobs 0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:54.680 or became like African academics, right, And the other thing 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:56.239 that happened with this politics that was the reason why 0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:58.360 it was completely unsustainable was that and this this is 0:54:58.360 --> 0:54:59.400 this has been a sort of a problem with the 0:54:59.440 --> 0:55:03.560 Asian America entity. Right is that okay, like what the 0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:07.479 fund is an Asian American right, it's like anyone from 0:55:07.560 --> 0:55:13.000 like I don't know, likes anyone from like the like 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:16.319 the edge of the Pacific to like I don't know, 0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:20.759 like how how how far? How far? Like I what's 0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:23.680 it called? Like how far? How far west? Does that go? 0:55:23.800 --> 0:55:28.440 The other direction? Like who knows? It's like yeah, like 0:55:28.560 --> 0:55:30.560 I mean, this is like billions and billions and billions 0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:32.600 of people with completely your related cultures and languages and 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:34.120 stuff like that. And the reason they were able to 0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:37.120 do this right was because they were mirroring their movement 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:40.440 off of like the Third World right. But the problem 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:42.200 that they ran into, and this is the problem with 0:55:42.239 --> 0:55:44.759 all the Third World movements was that, Okay, So the 0:55:45.000 --> 0:55:49.800 Third World movement like as a thing was it was 0:55:49.840 --> 0:55:51.640 based on a bunch of different nationalist movements, right, Like 0:55:51.640 --> 0:55:52.799 it was based on that there's going to be this 0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:56.040 like alliance between like the sort of like the rising 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:59.200 socialis powers in Africa and the rising socialist powers and 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:01.400 I in East Asia, and they were gonna sort of 0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:05.840 like ally with like the rising sort of like I know, 0:56:05.960 --> 0:56:08.120 like the rising sort of like minorities getting power in 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:12.040 the US. But okay, if you look at those nationalisms, right, 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:17.879 you have Chinese nationalism, Cambodian nationalism, and Vietnamese nationalism all 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:20.919 colliding with each other. And you know, if it turns 0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:23.399 out like what okay? So what what what happens if 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:25.479 your movement is based on sort of like the unity 0:56:25.480 --> 0:56:26.799 of a bunch of nationals movements and they go to 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:30.480 war with each other? And you know what happened was 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:34.440 when when when China when Vietnam and Vadas Cambodia in 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:37.280 and and Vietnam and Vedas Cambodia and then China invades 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:40.480 Vietnam in nineteen seventy nine. Right, the entire politics is 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:42.520 fucked because what what what are you supposed to do? 0:56:42.560 --> 0:56:44.759 Like what's who's who side you're supposed to take? Here? Right? 0:56:44.960 --> 0:56:46.759 Like you can you can do the you know, like 0:56:47.640 --> 0:56:49.160 if if you're gonna be like a Marxist, like a 0:56:49.200 --> 0:56:53.320 Marxis Leninist, like the probably the correct line to support Vietnam, right, 0:56:53.360 --> 0:56:55.399 But that's a mess because you know how many people 0:56:55.440 --> 0:56:57.960 in Maoists, right, and if you but but you know, 0:56:58.000 --> 0:57:01.720 if you're a Maoist and you're fucking people just invaded Vietnam, 0:57:01.880 --> 0:57:03.080 like you know, what are you supposed to do? Right? 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:05.239 And there was there were earlier attentions with this too, 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:08.600 where like like China, with China was backing like a 0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:11.160 really shitty fashion in Angola who ended up ended up 0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:13.759 being backed by the US and like South Africa, and 0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:15.480 that caused a whole bunch of tensions between the sort 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:17.680 of Chinese Maoists and a bunch of the sort of 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:19.440 black radical groups because they were like, why the funk 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:22.160 are you guys backing these people in Angola? But you know, 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:24.360 and and and this, this whole thing became a problem 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:28.280 because all of these nationalisms are competing nationalisms right there. 0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:30.880 There was never going to be one unified third world. 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:33.400 It was always it was always going to end with 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:36.360 a bunch of nationalists fucking fighting each other. And when 0:57:36.400 --> 0:57:39.040 that happens, the Asian like the Asian American movement such 0:57:39.040 --> 0:57:42.160 as it was just fucking died, and you know, like 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:44.840 as a radical movement, it was just over. And so 0:57:45.040 --> 0:57:48.800 you know, I think I think the lesson that I 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:52.560 would take out of this is just that like, do 0:57:52.720 --> 0:57:56.120 not build. Do not build your movement based off of 0:57:56.160 --> 0:58:00.360 someone else's nationalism, because those people are going to do 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:04.240 things because they're nationalists that are just fucked right. They're 0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:07.080 gonna win. They're gonna invade Vietnam like camp, like the 0:58:07.680 --> 0:58:10.040 Cambodians are gonna invade Vietnam, and then Vietnam is gonna 0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:13.520 like you know, like are arguably justifiably because they've been 0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:15.760 getting attacked because they're fighting Khmer Rouge. But like you know, 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:17.320 they're they're these people are all going to go to 0:58:17.360 --> 0:58:20.080 war with each other, right like you're or you know, you're, 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.960 you're gonna be stuck in the situation where like you're, you're, 0:58:23.960 --> 0:58:26.160 you're you're being forced to two sides between like the 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:29.280 DIRG and the and like the Marxist government Somalia because 0:58:29.280 --> 0:58:31.680 they've they've randomly gone to war with each other. So 0:58:31.880 --> 0:58:35.560 don't do this. This has been my rants that I wanted, 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:39.360 all I wanted to do about this because yeah, no, 0:58:39.480 --> 0:58:41.560 I'm glad you did. I'm glad that I was here 0:58:41.600 --> 0:58:43.960 for it too, because I don't know, it's good to 0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:46.560 know this stuff and I get to learn by listening 0:58:46.600 --> 0:58:52.880 to you still me Um, yeah, I I appreciate all 0:58:52.880 --> 0:58:57.520 the research that you did. Thanks. Yeah, and yeah, so 0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:00.000 I guess this has been It can happen here? Yeah, yeah, 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:02.800 that's the episode. You can find us happened here pod 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:09.920 um on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at h three Um 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:13.120 yeah yeah, I'm a sure hero six six six on 0:59:13.200 --> 0:59:16.520 Twitter and then on Instagram. Just take out the six 0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:18.680 six sixes, but maybe I should add them because OK 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:35.000 here anyway, thanks by this is it could happen here. 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:39.760 My name is Jake Hanrahan. I'm a journalist and documentary filmmaker. 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:44.040 Today you're gonna hear me reporting from an undisclosed location 0:59:44.200 --> 0:59:48.760 in Europe where I met with anti Putin Russian partisans. 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:55.360 So right now, heading into the forest somewhere on the 0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:59.920 edge of Europe. There's snow absolutely everywhere. It's pitch black 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:03.720 and it's very very cold. I'm heading into the forest 1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:08.520 to meet with anti government Russian partisans. They've been launching 1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:12.840 attacks inside Russia against Kremlin infrastructure. They've been blowing up 1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:17.080 railway tracks and attacking military recruitment centers because they want 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:21.160 to disrupt the continued Russian invasion of Ukraine. These partners 1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:24.400 and attacks have been taking place all across Russia, but 1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:28.080 obviously over there there's a complete media blackout on this situation. 1:00:28.640 --> 1:00:31.120 So this group have come over um and agreed to 1:00:31.120 --> 1:00:33.800 meet with me to tell me what's actually happening and 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:36.360 to let people know that it's not everybody there that 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:39.360 supports this, and some people are even taking up arms, 1:00:39.880 --> 1:00:43.000 taking massive risks to try and stop proputing is up to. 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:51.120 When Russia invaded Ukraine on February, the Ukrainian people bravely 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:54.520 mobilized to fight back against Putin's attack on their country. 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:59.200 Russia's so called Three Days Special Operation has turned into 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:02.840 a grueling, year long battle whether Ukrainian resistance has been 1:01:02.920 --> 1:01:07.320 highly effective. Despite this chaos, it seems that many people 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.439 in Russia have come out in favor of this brutal war. 1:01:10.840 --> 1:01:14.880 Even now, with over forty people killed and over fourteen 1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:19.160 million displaced, there's still large scales support for Putin's attacks 1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:23.560 on Ukraine. This much is fact. The idea that every 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:27.280 Russian is in favor of the war is not. Russia 1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:30.439 is a huge place, with a population of over one 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:34.160 d and forty million. Many people there do not support 1:01:34.200 --> 1:01:37.880 Putin or his war. Some have even taken the risk 1:01:38.040 --> 1:01:42.280 to fight back. As I mentioned, there's a quiet but 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:47.000 highly effective network of anti Poutin partisans that are fighting 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:50.720 from within. They're doing this by blowing up military railways, 1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:55.200 sabotaging Kremlin cell towers, and burning down war recruitment centers, 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:58.320 all this in an effort to help Ukrainians from Afar. 1:01:58.720 --> 1:02:01.760 If caught by the Russian security writy forces, they faced 1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:05.320 torture and life in prison. Despite the risks, in the 1:02:05.400 --> 1:02:08.520 last twelve months, there have been more than eighty confirmed 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:12.640 attacks against the government inside at Russia. The attacks have 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:15.840 taken place all across the country as well, from Moscow 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:19.480 in the west to Vladivostok in the far east. There 1:02:19.480 --> 1:02:24.240 are dozens of different partisans cells and lone wolves. As 1:02:24.320 --> 1:02:28.120 is with real life, the partisans have varying different political 1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:32.120 ideologies from far left to far right. For the moment, though, 1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:36.120 they all share information with each other, recognizing their common 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:40.240 enemy in Putin. One of the most organized groups is 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:44.360 made up of militant anarchists. They're known as the Anaco 1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:48.920 Communist Combat Organization, more commonly referred to by their Russian 1:02:48.920 --> 1:02:53.400 abbreviation BOAK. It's two fighters from Boak who had arranged 1:02:53.440 --> 1:02:56.760 to meet in a Russia bordering forest of eastern Europe. 1:02:57.240 --> 1:03:00.920 We've spoken weeks before via encrypted email. They told me 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:03.760 which country to fly to and then send me coordinates 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:06.720 of where to meet them within a specific window of time. 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:09.600 A driver as far as I could, abandon the car 1:03:09.840 --> 1:03:13.840 and took off into the forest. Eventually, a red torchlight 1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:17.160 emerged through the trees, cutting the silhouette of two figures. 1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:19.880 As the two approached, it was clear it was the 1:03:19.920 --> 1:03:23.440 Boak fighters. They were both dressed head to toe in black, 1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:28.160 and we're both wearing balaclavas. We confirmed things, shook hands 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:30.400 and set off to find a spot for the interview. 1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:33.120 They let me through an underground tunnel to an area 1:03:33.200 --> 1:03:39.640 they felt comfortable with. Just to protect the identity of 1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.280 the rushing partisans, we've scrambled their voice. That voice you 1:03:43.440 --> 1:03:46.280 just heard that, Oh yeah, she's a female, and the 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:49.560 other fire said the voice you'll hear that's Jura, he's 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:52.040 a male. Can you explain the actions, like what are 1:03:52.080 --> 1:03:55.440 the main things you've been doing to disrupt Putin's invasion? 1:03:55.640 --> 1:04:00.240 The assembled railways, which leads to their after really else 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:04.560 in the most court region do it the fronto to 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:08.400 give to the Krainian people more time to prepare for 1:04:08.760 --> 1:04:13.800 the The railing trains in Russia is something the Partisans 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:18.000 specialize in. They've managed to knock several Kremlin cargo trains 1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:20.840 off their tracks, trains that were destined to the level 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:24.840 weapons to Russian soldiers as they continued to invade Ukraine. 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:28.600 We'll probably never know how helpful this was for Ukrainians, 1:04:28.640 --> 1:04:32.880 but every second counts when battling for frontline positions in war. 1:04:33.280 --> 1:04:36.480 For example, if Russian soldiers were left waiting for a 1:04:36.560 --> 1:04:41.360 resupply which was delayed because of partisan attacks, they might 1:04:41.400 --> 1:04:45.320 then be overrun by Ukrainians. This would definitely be an 1:04:45.360 --> 1:04:49.040 effective blow for the Partisans. I asked the Borack fights 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:52.160 is why they felt the need to form such an organization. 1:04:52.360 --> 1:04:55.040 We see that we need to create a partisan organization 1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:58.200 because in the Russia the state depression is very hard. 1:04:58.520 --> 1:05:02.560 So you came to use some uh legal methods to 1:05:03.040 --> 1:05:06.000 do some step by step changes. Even if you do 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:09.959 some so called legal actions, anyway, you'll go to the jail. 1:05:10.360 --> 1:05:13.960 We are attacking the state to make it weaker, to 1:05:14.040 --> 1:05:16.800 show people that we can do it. We as people 1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:19.480 people of Russia, people of all the old We have 1:05:19.720 --> 1:05:23.160 this power in our hands. And yeah, and them the 1:05:23.240 --> 1:05:26.640 stay they are small and we are there's a lot 1:05:26.640 --> 1:05:30.400 of us. And the second direction, which we are developed 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:34.920 since is a coordination of such kinds of attacks. Attacks 1:05:35.000 --> 1:05:38.520 all over the Russia. Recently we published I think maybe 1:05:38.720 --> 1:05:42.680 even more than an attacks from many different regions. We 1:05:42.800 --> 1:05:46.760 have small partisan cells to find out how to make attacks, 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:50.200 help them with supplies, helps such as small person groups. 1:05:50.240 --> 1:05:53.480 It's increasing, it's increasing here and they make more and 1:05:53.560 --> 1:05:56.640 more serious attacks. For example, not a long time ago 1:05:56.880 --> 1:06:00.280 they bombed some kind of military road near the graying 1:06:00.280 --> 1:06:05.840 In border. So hope is not in that one small 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:08.960 group can do, but that we have a lot of 1:06:08.960 --> 1:06:11.520 small groups and altogethers that we can change things. So 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:14.440 you guys been around before the uk MOS started, or 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.640 at least since the invasion started this year, but that's 1:06:17.640 --> 1:06:19.680 when you've got a lot more known. I think online 1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:22.080 we've seen that you guys are actually doing attacks inside 1:06:22.160 --> 1:06:25.600 Russia and in Belarus. Very dangerous thing to do. Um, 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:27.840 what is it that you know spurred you guys on 1:06:27.840 --> 1:06:29.680 why you're doing this way? You're taking such a risk 1:06:29.720 --> 1:06:33.760 to basically attack who in in his own country, because 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:37.680 it's not his country, it's our country. We can't do nothing. 1:06:38.600 --> 1:06:41.800 We can do legal things. And this patternan tax can 1:06:42.080 --> 1:06:47.840 make military imagine of Russian state. We got the supply lines, 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:54.800 we attack the military equipment centers, so the army became 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:57.720 so we can end as it was very often in 1:06:57.720 --> 1:07:01.880 the Russia and many others states study on the state 1:07:02.000 --> 1:07:06.480 lows war. That is, the window of possibilities opens for 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:10.240 the people of this country. What was Boach a pragmatic 1:07:10.560 --> 1:07:14.720 focused currently on the pressing issue of Putin's or on Ukraine. 1:07:15.160 --> 1:07:17.800 They're also looking to carve out a space for themselves 1:07:17.800 --> 1:07:21.600 in what they believe will be a wild post Putin Russia. 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:24.919 When Putin dies, there will be a vacuum where many 1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:28.800 other groups feel the same Boach in their minds, setting 1:07:28.840 --> 1:07:32.840 down foundations already. For now though, they concentrate on assisting 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:37.240 the Ukrainians and in terms of like solidarity with Ukraine, 1:07:37.280 --> 1:07:39.440 are you doing this outh the Ukrainians as well or 1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:42.480 just for yourselves, like are you in contact with Ukrainians 1:07:42.640 --> 1:07:44.120 or is this just like a movement you guys are 1:07:44.120 --> 1:07:47.880 doing yourself. Of course, we have contacts, we can of 1:07:47.920 --> 1:07:52.000 course uh see what exactly contact? Yes, but yes we 1:07:52.080 --> 1:07:57.160 have contact moves uh different not only on his organization, 1:07:57.520 --> 1:08:04.120 in all ex country as well, we try to provide 1:08:04.160 --> 1:08:09.240 information for those other groups which don't yet know how 1:08:09.280 --> 1:08:13.360 to do things and don't yet have funds enough for 1:08:13.480 --> 1:08:19.360 supplies because even gasoline costs money and they don't have money. 1:08:19.720 --> 1:08:23.880 And as well, near the start of war, our group 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:27.799 organized a few attacks like on a mobile cell towers 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:31.400 Ukraine border, as we've seen from the telegram channels, the 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:33.920 kind of underground, there's definitely a lot of attacks. As 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:37.120 you've said, as you've been doing, how big is your 1:08:37.200 --> 1:08:40.120 organization because it's hard to tell how how prevalent are 1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:43.479 these attacks inside Russia? So that is well two or 1:08:43.560 --> 1:08:50.479 three dozens finished groups. Um, everyone has a different number 1:08:50.520 --> 1:08:54.360 of members. And what about geography as you know of 1:08:54.479 --> 1:08:58.560 the dance X from the calliand west over us to 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:05.600 the what your stalk which is yeah, specifically being anarchist 1:09:05.760 --> 1:09:09.800 but being partisans is extremely extremely dangerous inside Russia. You're 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:12.640 taking a massive risk doing this kind of stuff. Um, 1:09:12.680 --> 1:09:14.000 some people are going to leave this and go like 1:09:14.000 --> 1:09:16.160 why why would you take that risk? If we won't 1:09:16.160 --> 1:09:18.760 take those risks now we won't have future at all. 1:09:19.040 --> 1:09:24.240 And you're not worried, you're not scared of getting caught. 1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:27.880 But it's much more scarier to leave, know that you 1:09:28.000 --> 1:09:31.679 had chanced to change something and you didn't. Our people 1:09:31.760 --> 1:09:35.759 killing people of Ukraine and making a golds and wars, 1:09:35.800 --> 1:09:38.439 so every day it was interest for nuclear war and 1:09:38.439 --> 1:09:40.800 so on, because if you do it now, maybe we 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:43.200 will not have the future at all. Not only in Rush, 1:09:43.479 --> 1:09:46.040 all over the world. People on the internet, they will 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:48.240 see what you guys are doing and they say, are 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:53.320 you guys are CIA opertures and stuff like this, particularly 1:09:53.400 --> 1:09:56.840 like Westerners that actually support putting. Now you know what 1:09:56.920 --> 1:09:59.280 it's like living there under putting? Um, you know what, 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:01.280 how would you right? Stuff? Would you say to always 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:05.519 kind of actus eyes? I think if we would be 1:10:05.840 --> 1:10:12.559 saying hey, we would act more effectively. But we acted 1:10:12.640 --> 1:10:15.800 with those forces, with those resources which we have, we're 1:10:15.840 --> 1:10:19.479 trying to increase them. But when said that, it's time, 1:10:19.600 --> 1:10:24.519 it's process from zero partisan attacked to the full parts 1:10:24.560 --> 1:10:28.280 of the ward. So if we were see we had 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:32.480 a lot, well, we would have a lot of more resources. 1:10:32.520 --> 1:10:38.360 And yeah, we like we have homemade boombs or anything 1:10:38.479 --> 1:10:44.559 we can get our hands on or even speaking about 1:10:45.080 --> 1:10:49.920 sources which we used. When we uh the sample trailways, 1:10:50.200 --> 1:10:54.400 we used simple instruments which we could be bought in. 1:10:56.320 --> 1:10:59.600 We are showing people that they can just go to 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:03.599 the and buy those tools and do that themselves. It's 1:11:03.640 --> 1:11:07.280 not just you know, us doing some stuff with some 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:13.120 specific materials you can only get in the darknet. Now, 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:16.760 let's be honest. It's likely the c i A are 1:11:16.920 --> 1:11:20.800 up to something in Russia considering their past history, but 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:24.200 personally I believe back when they say they're nothing to 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:27.080 do with that. I think it would be pretty unlikely 1:11:27.200 --> 1:11:31.320 that the CIA would help an Anaco communist group when 1:11:31.400 --> 1:11:34.600 there are ultra nationalist groups doing similar things. How do 1:11:34.720 --> 1:11:36.800 you get the information? Like how do you know which 1:11:36.920 --> 1:11:40.559 railway to blow up? We used to wiki mar provides 1:11:40.840 --> 1:11:44.559 description for each object on the map and every everyone 1:11:44.680 --> 1:11:47.200 can contribute to eat. So he just opened it and 1:11:47.400 --> 1:11:51.200 you find, okay, minite objects here. It's doing something like 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:55.680 that that, it's it's photos and people who did they 1:11:55.760 --> 1:12:00.280 didn't do it for us just because formation you just 1:12:00.439 --> 1:12:02.679 can take it im do it. So they use wiki 1:12:02.720 --> 1:12:06.599 mapia to help their attacks. This I found quite funny. 1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:10.160 It's like the modern version of guerrillas gathering intel from 1:12:10.240 --> 1:12:13.559 locals about the enemy, only the locals in this case 1:12:13.760 --> 1:12:17.200 don't even know they're doing it. Scouting is also a 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:20.360 big part of their sabotage preparations. But but of course, 1:12:20.439 --> 1:12:24.559 so we need to a lot of scouting. Yeah, scouting 1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:29.680 like you you check out the PO. I know the 1:12:29.760 --> 1:12:33.519 anarchists specifically in Russia have been tortured quite a lot. 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:36.040 If they're captured for anything, Um, what do you think 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:38.120 would happen to you? Guys? If you got caught? For sure, 1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:41.920 we're going to as well, if you will be if 1:12:41.960 --> 1:12:50.880 you will live enough because we not link to Yeah, 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:54.240 we don't give any information on our comrades, and when 1:12:54.280 --> 1:12:57.880 you're tortured, it's hard to say when we would or 1:12:57.920 --> 1:13:03.000 would not your break. So it's got to prevent this 1:13:03.120 --> 1:13:07.160 by dying fighting. Does that mean your firearms? If you 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:09.280 want to do a revolution, you can do to the 1:13:09.400 --> 1:13:11.960 forums like why why are you doing this? Why are 1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:14.400 you giving us? Why do you want this this information 1:13:14.479 --> 1:13:16.719 to get out there? Do you think that it's important 1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:20.720 that people see us not as some internet warriors. We 1:13:20.800 --> 1:13:24.800 want people to hear our voices, to hear what we 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:28.000 can we have to say people to think that we 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:32.000 are some shay the organization, but we want them to 1:13:32.080 --> 1:13:34.680 see that we are real people just like them, and 1:13:34.960 --> 1:13:38.320 just like us. They can do things that we do. 1:13:38.760 --> 1:13:41.679 A lot of it is online, but there's there's definitely 1:13:41.800 --> 1:13:46.240 a perception that all Russians agree with the invasion, the 1:13:46.360 --> 1:13:50.240 destruction of Ukraine, what Putin wants to do. Obviously, people 1:13:50.320 --> 1:13:52.959 like you very clearly, you know, a small but effective 1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:56.400 resistance against Putin policies. What do you think about that? 1:13:56.439 --> 1:13:58.160 How would you respond to that? Is? Is it in 1:13:58.240 --> 1:14:00.400 the country and more people against the then it would 1:14:00.439 --> 1:14:03.280 seem or what? There are a lot more people against 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:09.439 it than it seems, because propaganda shows only people who 1:14:09.560 --> 1:14:13.560 agree with Putta and many many people don't agree, and 1:14:14.000 --> 1:14:18.360 many people just just silent because they're afraid to lose 1:14:18.439 --> 1:14:22.000 their jobs. If you will beat a dog every day 1:14:22.520 --> 1:14:25.640 and then some day it will think that you I 1:14:25.800 --> 1:14:29.120 live like that, it's normally, you know. So as we 1:14:29.240 --> 1:14:33.120 see a lot of people in Russia are also victims 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:35.920 of the Putin's regime at the moment, they just don't 1:14:35.960 --> 1:14:38.920 think that if they stick up they will change anything. 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:43.320 I think our main message is that people shouldn't just 1:14:43.920 --> 1:14:47.240 sit and wait that someone else is gonna do anything 1:14:47.360 --> 1:14:50.880 for them. They should take their lives in their own hands. 1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:54.280 As we often repeat, if not to be, don't who? 1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:57.640 If not now that when, thank you very much, life 1:14:57.680 --> 1:15:01.800 and everything. It's very good. Much without. The two partisans 1:15:01.880 --> 1:15:06.000 from Boak vanished into the forest. As Russia's war on 1:15:06.200 --> 1:15:09.800 Ukraine approaches at twelve month, Russian partisans like the ones 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:13.760 I spoke to continuing to disrupt Putne's war effort from within. 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:18.719 Organizations like Boak are fighting and uphill battle, but still 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:22.960 their attacks have definitely been effective. As we said, several 1:15:23.040 --> 1:15:26.280 military trains have been derailed and word of the partisan 1:15:26.479 --> 1:15:30.880 underground is spreading. Whilst there's next to no Russian state 1:15:30.960 --> 1:15:34.519 media coverage on this, the Russian government is clearly aware 1:15:34.560 --> 1:15:38.640 of it. Security around Russian train tracks has been tightened, 1:15:38.800 --> 1:15:41.560 and the Russian court has find the telegram app for 1:15:41.640 --> 1:15:45.559 allowing partisan networks to share information. There not to mention 1:15:45.680 --> 1:15:49.759 the uptick in unexplained fires breaking out across the country. 1:15:50.560 --> 1:15:53.040 Even though Prune's government acts like they can't see them, 1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:57.760 they know the partisans there. If you want to watch 1:15:57.880 --> 1:16:02.080 the extended documentary version of this reporting. Go to YouTube 1:16:02.120 --> 1:16:05.800 dot com slash popular Front and look for the documentary 1:16:06.280 --> 1:16:12.360 Rushes Anti poutin Underground. Music in this episode of It 1:16:12.439 --> 1:16:15.720 Could Happen Here was by Sam Black seas music at 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:21.439 Sam black pf dot com. Reporting production editing was by me. 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:25.920 You can follow me at Jake Underscore Hanrahan h A 1:16:26.320 --> 1:16:29.559 N I A H A N. Please do check out 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:35.360 my platform, independent grassroots conflict Reporting www dot Popular Front 1:16:35.479 --> 1:16:55.840 dot CEO. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a 1:16:56.040 --> 1:17:00.920 podcast that is today about it happening here or or 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:04.320 more particularly in Atlanta. So so it's here if you 1:17:04.400 --> 1:17:07.360 happen to live in Atlanta, Georgia. Otherwise it is it 1:17:07.520 --> 1:17:11.600 is still happening there. Um. And I don't actually know 1:17:11.880 --> 1:17:14.040 much about this because, like the rest of you, I 1:17:14.080 --> 1:17:17.320 have been watching from the sidelines since a forest defender 1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:20.439 was killed by the Georgia State Police. But someone who 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:22.679 has been in Atlanta for most of the last week 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:30.280 is Garrison Davis. Garrison, Hi, Hi, it's been a long week. Yeah, 1:17:30.360 --> 1:17:33.120 it sounds like it. You uh had just gotten back 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:35.799 from c e S when all this happened, and booked 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:39.200 booked the next flight and flew out and we're on 1:17:39.320 --> 1:17:42.680 the ground during uh, some of the immediate protests that 1:17:42.840 --> 1:17:45.280 followed news about the death. Do you do you want 1:17:45.320 --> 1:17:48.280 to just kind of take it from here. Yeah, So 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:52.600 we're gonna be putting together kind of a more in 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:56.240 depth thing similar to my similar to my on the 1:17:56.280 --> 1:17:59.040 Ground to Defend the Atlanta Forest episodes from last May. 1:17:59.479 --> 1:18:02.040 That is that's that's gonna come out. But you know, 1:18:02.120 --> 1:18:03.880 it'll take a little bit because I'm doing a lot 1:18:03.920 --> 1:18:07.720 of interviews, doing a lot of on the ground stuff here. Um, 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:10.439 but this is important enough that I feel like it's 1:18:10.520 --> 1:18:13.000 it's worth that it was it was worth mentioning something 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:16.040 a bit sooner, which is why we're recording here today 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:18.080 just to kind of give a one oh one on 1:18:18.200 --> 1:18:22.759 what's been going on ever since Wednesday. So Wednesday, January 1:18:24.120 --> 1:18:27.080 there was a raid on the Wallawnee Forest or the 1:18:27.120 --> 1:18:29.799 South River Forest in Atlanta, where people have been currently 1:18:30.640 --> 1:18:33.080 staying in encampments for the past like a year and 1:18:33.120 --> 1:18:38.360 a half in opposition of this upcoming proposed police training 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:42.160 facility to be built on this same land. So Wednesday 1:18:42.240 --> 1:18:44.599 morning there was this raid. Um, there's a few things 1:18:44.720 --> 1:18:49.280 different about this raid. One it seemed to be in 1:18:49.439 --> 1:18:53.439 some ways kind of led by the Georgia State Patrol. UM. 1:18:54.120 --> 1:18:56.320 This is uh, you know, a state, a state run 1:18:56.400 --> 1:18:59.720 police that has not been in this force before. UM. 1:18:59.760 --> 1:19:02.200 Other raids have been coordinated between the Decap County Police 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:05.799 in Atlanta Police. So the swat team was was unfamiliar 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:07.280 with the forest. They had not been in there before. 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:10.560 There was there was other police on on site. This 1:19:10.720 --> 1:19:13.360 was an inter agency thing. There was it does seem 1:19:13.400 --> 1:19:16.000 like there was Atlanta police here as well. But this 1:19:16.120 --> 1:19:19.760 started at around eight am and then at around nine 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:25.160 am we got word that uh, a forest defender was 1:19:25.200 --> 1:19:28.240 shot and killed by it seems like in an estate 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:30.920 patrol officer that they are not releasing the name of, 1:19:31.400 --> 1:19:34.080 nor are they releasing the name of one other officer 1:19:34.560 --> 1:19:38.519 who was injured. UM and George georgiea State patrol claims 1:19:38.560 --> 1:19:42.679 that they were shot during this raid as well. Police 1:19:42.960 --> 1:19:47.920 by Day Yes, police police claim that they were shot 1:19:48.280 --> 1:19:51.479 by the person that the George State Patrol killed. There's 1:19:51.600 --> 1:19:56.640 very little information about this. UM. Nobody cameras no, they 1:19:56.680 --> 1:19:58.840 have said that there's no nobody cam which does seem 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:02.839 consistent because George st. Patrol are not are not required 1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:05.840 to our body cam, so that obviously hit a lot 1:20:05.880 --> 1:20:10.599 of people pretty hard. Because this is um, to our knowledge, 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:14.400 the first like you know, environmental ist protester to be 1:20:14.640 --> 1:20:17.800 killed by police. It's the first fatality that we've had 1:20:18.080 --> 1:20:22.839 in the in this in this movement here in Atlanta. 1:20:23.880 --> 1:20:27.599 And for the record, it is still deeply unclear what happened. 1:20:27.640 --> 1:20:31.400 It's certainly not impossible that this person fired first on 1:20:31.479 --> 1:20:34.600 the police officer, but it's it's also incredibly important to 1:20:34.640 --> 1:20:37.920 note that there is no evidence of this that's been presented. 1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:40.400 The only evidence that the police have presented is a 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:44.519 photo of a of a pistol on the ground. UM. 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:48.960 And then they've made the very weasily worded claim that 1:20:49.240 --> 1:20:54.160 UM ballistics testing has shown that the bullet that struck 1:20:54.240 --> 1:20:57.800 the officer was consistent with the gun that they're saying 1:20:58.000 --> 1:21:00.599 with the the individual they killed had all that means 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:03.800 I said it was nine millimeter. That was the same caliber, right, 1:21:04.920 --> 1:21:07.479 a caliber for which there are tens of millions of 1:21:07.520 --> 1:21:11.479 guns in this country. UM. Most ballistic science is in 1:21:11.640 --> 1:21:14.920 terms of like identifying bullets to guns is actually nonsense. 1:21:14.960 --> 1:21:18.840 There have been massive lawsuits about this. The FBI, UM 1:21:19.120 --> 1:21:23.040 has has this is a bigger topic than than we 1:21:23.160 --> 1:21:25.559 can get into today. But it's very shady, and all 1:21:25.640 --> 1:21:27.680 that they actually said is the cop was shot with 1:21:27.760 --> 1:21:30.400 a nine millimeter and hey, look we found a nine millimeter. 1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:35.320 Not interestingly enough, we have confirmed that this gun was fired. Um. 1:21:36.120 --> 1:21:40.599 So very anyway, so no one knows what's happened. It's 1:21:40.760 --> 1:21:43.360 it's it's shady. I mean, so I've I got I 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:46.120 got here like less than twenty four hours later. A 1:21:46.200 --> 1:21:47.720 lot of people on the ground have been kind of 1:21:47.760 --> 1:21:49.880 sharing their memories of the person that was killed. So 1:21:50.000 --> 1:21:53.240 the person was named their Their forest name was Tortuguita, 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:57.719 which means little turtle. Their name that has been released 1:21:58.120 --> 1:22:01.599 is uh Manuel Um, I'm just gonna I'm gonna call 1:22:01.640 --> 1:22:05.200 them tortuga or tort um. Sure, there's been people of 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:07.439 you know, spent a lot of the past few days 1:22:07.800 --> 1:22:12.120 talking about tort remembering tort um, the types of things 1:22:12.240 --> 1:22:15.080 that that they advocated for the types of things that 1:22:15.439 --> 1:22:19.519 they would talk about. So we'll well, we'll get into 1:22:19.560 --> 1:22:21.360 some of the more kind of specifics of that of 1:22:21.479 --> 1:22:26.400 that of that later. Um. But a number of other 1:22:26.560 --> 1:22:31.680 journalists have talked about their conversations with with toward, including 1:22:31.960 --> 1:22:35.640 Um the fact that they evinced a pretty principled um 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:40.400 and and extensive commitment to non violence, UM, at least 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:42.920 in interviews. This is something they had been quoted on 1:22:43.040 --> 1:22:46.080 by an other journalists a number of times. And this 1:22:46.160 --> 1:22:47.880 is something I've heard a lot of people bring up. 1:22:48.120 --> 1:22:50.840 Is that is that tort was was a believer in 1:22:51.840 --> 1:22:54.120 in non violence and would and would talk about and 1:22:54.200 --> 1:22:56.840 advocate that. The other the other kind of angle to this, 1:22:57.000 --> 1:22:59.240 and I'm not taking a position one way or another here, 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:01.200 but this is something that I think it's important to 1:23:01.240 --> 1:23:04.479 mention is that I also don't want to remove the 1:23:04.600 --> 1:23:07.360 agency of a person if they did decide to do 1:23:07.720 --> 1:23:09.280 if I, if I did, if they did decide to 1:23:09.320 --> 1:23:10.760 do this. Because the other thing I've heard a lot 1:23:10.800 --> 1:23:16.519 about Towards is that they always made thoughtful decisions, in 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:20.920 meaning that they put thought into everything they did. Um. 1:23:21.040 --> 1:23:24.800 They were they acted strategically. They did not they did 1:23:24.840 --> 1:23:27.880 not put people in unnecessary danger. They would not do 1:23:28.080 --> 1:23:30.360 something if they thought it would endanger other people. They 1:23:30.400 --> 1:23:35.240 always acted with thought and that that that could include 1:23:35.680 --> 1:23:39.240 if you feel like your life is under immediate threat, um, 1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:43.680 what what actually happened Wednesday morning? We will probably never know, 1:23:43.880 --> 1:23:47.320 we will never know the exact series of events. Yeah, 1:23:48.560 --> 1:23:53.320 and it's and in some ways like that's we can 1:23:53.880 --> 1:23:59.000 we should respect towards either way, um, because they made 1:23:59.040 --> 1:24:01.280 it a decision that they thought that was right in 1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:05.880 the moment where they were just flat out murdered by police. UM. 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:10.600 So that's that's kind of the gist of of what 1:24:10.760 --> 1:24:13.840 happened Wednesday morning. Throughout the rest of the day, their 1:24:14.000 --> 1:24:17.640 police continued their raid on the forest. The last the 1:24:17.720 --> 1:24:21.479 last tree sitter was eventually taken down like twenty hours 1:24:21.600 --> 1:24:23.640 later after the raids. That someone was stuck up in 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:26.800 a tree for over twenty hours, no food or water, Um, 1:24:27.000 --> 1:24:31.720 police agitating them the entire time, and many all of 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:34.160 all the other people arrested, I think it total around 1:24:34.200 --> 1:24:38.960 seven got charged with the domestic terrorism among other charges. 1:24:39.760 --> 1:24:44.560 So that's pretty significant. Um. That is people. That's that 1:24:44.880 --> 1:24:46.559 and we will circle back to this to this point 1:24:46.600 --> 1:24:49.560 a little bit later. So that is that is what 1:24:49.680 --> 1:24:53.400 happened on Wednesday. Uh, you know, the first few hours 1:24:53.479 --> 1:24:57.000 after the shooting, people were unsure of of who actually 1:24:57.040 --> 1:24:58.479 got killed. It was it was hard, it was hard 1:24:58.520 --> 1:25:01.360 to say. Um. Other force defenders who were in the 1:25:01.439 --> 1:25:04.920 area did report from that what they heard there was 1:25:05.280 --> 1:25:09.559 a pretty a pretty quick single firing of of guns, 1:25:09.720 --> 1:25:12.400 multiple guns going off in a pretty quick succession. There 1:25:12.520 --> 1:25:15.720 was no like one shot and then seconds later bunch 1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:17.320 of other shots. It was all kind of one event. 1:25:17.479 --> 1:25:19.320 This is reports from people on the ground. This is 1:25:19.439 --> 1:25:22.439 what this is what they've said. UM, A lot of 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:25.000 a lot of people speculate that this could have been 1:25:25.040 --> 1:25:27.320 friendly fire. If if this, if this, if this, if 1:25:27.360 --> 1:25:32.000 this other patrol officer was was, um, you know, got shot. 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:36.400 They went to the hospital. So it doesn't it doesn't 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:40.240 police officer had got a bullet inside of them. Um. 1:25:40.479 --> 1:25:43.439 But obviously there's a number of ways in which that 1:25:43.520 --> 1:25:46.920 could have occurred. And I don't find it. I certainly, 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:49.920 I don't think it's conspiratory at all, too conspiratorial at 1:25:49.920 --> 1:25:52.320 all to say they have not presented evidence. It is 1:25:52.400 --> 1:25:55.160 certainly possible that a bunch of cops wandering through the forest, 1:25:55.680 --> 1:25:58.639 somebody would have a negligent discharge, you know, somebody would 1:25:58.680 --> 1:26:01.360 just pant. You know, there's enough we and again, as 1:26:01.400 --> 1:26:04.720 you've stated, we just we probably will never know precisely 1:26:04.800 --> 1:26:08.560 what happened. Um, And that's that's that's the feeling on 1:26:08.600 --> 1:26:10.800 the ground, a lot of people coming to terms with 1:26:10.840 --> 1:26:12.679 the fact that we will never know. A lot of people, 1:26:12.920 --> 1:26:16.599 you know, thinking that it's you know, very likely chance 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:18.840 it was friendly fire. Other people, you know, trying to 1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:21.880 trying to emphasize the fact that, you know, we will 1:26:21.920 --> 1:26:24.000 never know if we cannot say one way, they or another. 1:26:24.479 --> 1:26:28.880 But it's also important not to minimize someone's autonomy, especially 1:26:28.960 --> 1:26:31.439 since they're no longer around to advocate for themselves or 1:26:31.479 --> 1:26:36.560 their actions. Yeah, let's go, let's have a let's have 1:26:36.640 --> 1:26:38.560 an ad break, and then we'll kind of continue on 1:26:38.680 --> 1:26:42.679 to what happened in the in the days after we're 1:26:42.720 --> 1:26:47.519 back Garrison. Please continue to take it away. So the 1:26:48.040 --> 1:26:50.000 late the day of the shooting, there was a vigil 1:26:50.920 --> 1:26:52.519 before we found out who it was. There was a 1:26:52.560 --> 1:26:55.320 vigil set up at Little Five Points in Atlanta, and 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:59.719 then the next two days there was there was a vigil. 1:26:59.720 --> 1:27:05.080 Space is created at entrenchmentt Creek Park or Woolani People's Park. Uh, 1:27:05.200 --> 1:27:07.720 this is an area of the forest that's too that's 1:27:07.840 --> 1:27:11.040 on like the eastern side, and this is the section 1:27:11.479 --> 1:27:16.360 that is currently being sought as a place to expand 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:19.679 black Hole Movie studios. So this is this is separate 1:27:19.720 --> 1:27:22.920 from the actual cops City element of this, but it's 1:27:22.920 --> 1:27:25.400 still part of the Defend the Atlanta Forest side of 1:27:25.439 --> 1:27:27.680 this because this is all the same forest. They're just 1:27:27.800 --> 1:27:30.840 kind of split um down the middle by this by 1:27:30.920 --> 1:27:34.160 this power line cut. So this section of the park 1:27:34.439 --> 1:27:37.000 is on a section of land that's contestedly owned by 1:27:37.160 --> 1:27:41.000 Ryan Millsap, the guy who runs Black Hall Studios. I 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:45.799 first arrived at at the Willani People's Park on Friday 1:27:46.120 --> 1:27:49.760 for the for like the more public facing vigil, and 1:27:49.880 --> 1:27:52.200 I just just kind of I want to talk a 1:27:52.280 --> 1:27:55.080 bit about the park because this is such a I 1:27:55.120 --> 1:27:58.800 think it's such a solid encapsulation of what's changed since 1:27:58.880 --> 1:28:01.360 last time I've been in Atlanta. So last time I 1:28:01.479 --> 1:28:05.639 was in Atlanta, there was the Muscogee Creek. People were 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:10.680 traveling from my belief, Oklahoma to Atlanta what what is 1:28:10.760 --> 1:28:14.639 now Atlanta what what used to be Muskogee land um, 1:28:15.080 --> 1:28:17.640 and they were they were like giving talks and presentations 1:28:17.840 --> 1:28:21.320 about the forest inside the section of forests that that 1:28:21.560 --> 1:28:24.439 the Defend the Atlanta Fort stuff is about. And I 1:28:24.720 --> 1:28:27.720 went to one of those events at in Trenchpant Creek Park. 1:28:28.880 --> 1:28:32.760 It was green trees all around, there was a nice gazebo. 1:28:33.040 --> 1:28:35.679 There was a there was a piano inside the gazebo, 1:28:35.760 --> 1:28:39.120 people handing out food, a little kitchen was set up, 1:28:39.760 --> 1:28:43.320 pretty pretty picturesque. It was. It was pretty. It was 1:28:43.320 --> 1:28:46.000 pretty great. So then when I pulled up to this 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:51.240 same spot a few days ago, it was like apocalyptic. 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:54.960 The gazebo has been completely torn down and is laying 1:28:55.000 --> 1:28:57.160 in shambles in the front of the parking lot like 1:28:57.600 --> 1:29:01.439 for everyone to see. The destroyed rooms, all of the 1:29:01.960 --> 1:29:05.840 all of like the uh, the the concrete sidewalks and 1:29:05.880 --> 1:29:08.519 stuff have all been torn up and it's just scattered everywhere. 1:29:08.800 --> 1:29:10.880 It's now it's just it's just a massive mud pit. 1:29:11.920 --> 1:29:17.120 It's it's such a different place. Um. And you know 1:29:17.400 --> 1:29:19.320 when you when you get there for a vigil, the 1:29:19.640 --> 1:29:24.240 moods not cheery obviously. Um. There was people you know, 1:29:24.439 --> 1:29:28.679 sharing stories of Tort, singing songs and you know, building 1:29:28.760 --> 1:29:33.960 this like a almost like a virgual shrine. Um. So 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:39.200 that was like the first the first big thing Friday night. Um. 1:29:39.800 --> 1:29:42.519 So a lot of people talked about their memories of 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:45.439 Tort and you know the different things they contributed to, 1:29:45.720 --> 1:29:47.360 not just to defend the a lint of force stuff, 1:29:47.640 --> 1:29:50.320 but stuff across the entire South. They did mutual aid 1:29:50.360 --> 1:29:54.360 work UM and stuff to secure housing for people in Florida. 1:29:55.640 --> 1:30:01.880 They helped defend drag shows in U Tennessee. They they did, 1:30:02.120 --> 1:30:05.800 they did stuff all all across the South. And you know, 1:30:06.000 --> 1:30:09.719 they had they had allies and accomplices from across the South, 1:30:09.880 --> 1:30:13.360 you know, talking about how great toward was to work 1:30:13.400 --> 1:30:16.960 with the types of solidarity that tort would show too 1:30:17.160 --> 1:30:22.200 too many many different people. So that was Friday, and 1:30:22.680 --> 1:30:26.720 everyone was kind of you could kind of feel the 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:30.080 almost calm before the storm. In some ways, people didn't 1:30:30.120 --> 1:30:31.760 people didn't really know what was going to happen in 1:30:31.840 --> 1:30:35.120 the coming days, but there was there was a sense 1:30:35.200 --> 1:30:41.439 of like eerie quietness. And then Saturday happens. Saturday, there 1:30:41.560 --> 1:30:44.720 is this protest planned meeting in Underground Atlanta, which is 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.559 a spot in downtown Atlanta kind of on the south side. 1:30:48.560 --> 1:30:53.320 I got there for this protest there. Initially there was 1:30:53.640 --> 1:30:58.640 people from this like socialist organization called PSL. They they 1:30:58.720 --> 1:31:02.000 tried to lead them march one way. Um the crowd 1:31:02.320 --> 1:31:06.080 rejected their authority and was like, no, we're not going 1:31:06.120 --> 1:31:08.000 to go to the federal district. We're not going to 1:31:08.080 --> 1:31:11.200 go to the CNN Center, which are places notorious for 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:15.840 getting cattled at UM, and they and people autonomously redirected 1:31:15.880 --> 1:31:20.640 the crowd um North towards the and and North is 1:31:20.680 --> 1:31:22.960 also just so happens to be the direction of the 1:31:23.000 --> 1:31:28.240 Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, the pseudo union lobbying group that 1:31:28.439 --> 1:31:31.519 is that is behind the big push for for Cops 1:31:31.560 --> 1:31:36.440 City UM. But before this march started, there was similarly, 1:31:36.520 --> 1:31:40.240 you know, people giving speeches about tort people, not not speeches, 1:31:40.320 --> 1:31:42.840 like people just sharing memories of torts. So people so 1:31:42.960 --> 1:31:45.360 that tork can like live on UM in some way, 1:31:45.439 --> 1:31:47.479 so people can you know, know about them now that 1:31:47.560 --> 1:31:50.599 they're no longer around. You know, people from a local 1:31:50.800 --> 1:31:55.640 medic collective talking about you know, towards towards involvement in 1:31:55.760 --> 1:31:59.360 that and how much toward cared about, you know, helping 1:31:59.360 --> 1:32:05.240 other people. So this this this march starts up. UM. 1:32:05.360 --> 1:32:09.360 It was funny there was a few blocks away from 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:12.280 this march location. They're just so happened to be like 1:32:12.680 --> 1:32:15.120 a single police car in the street but like parked 1:32:15.160 --> 1:32:17.880 on the wrong side of the road, and this police 1:32:17.880 --> 1:32:20.680 car sees this march coming and it's like kind of 1:32:20.720 --> 1:32:22.920 freaking out. He doesn't know what to do. It drives 1:32:23.000 --> 1:32:26.479 in reverse for like like two blocks, trying to find 1:32:26.479 --> 1:32:29.880 a spot to turn around, as the marches like increasingly 1:32:29.960 --> 1:32:32.639 getting closer. Like you could just you cause you could 1:32:32.720 --> 1:32:36.400 just feel you could feel the anxiety of the cot 1:32:36.479 --> 1:32:39.320 inside this car. He they do not want to get 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:42.960 surrounded by a crowd. Um. Eventually they're able to back 1:32:43.080 --> 1:32:45.720 up enough to turn around and they get out. They 1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:47.880 are they are zooming away. If you do not want 1:32:47.880 --> 1:32:52.920 to be anywhere near this. And short shortly after people 1:32:53.120 --> 1:33:00.479 arrive at the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, windows spontaneously shatter um. 1:33:00.960 --> 1:33:05.000 As as is expected, a few bank windows also get 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:11.680 um get get broken. What Wells Fargo being one of them, Yes, 1:33:12.000 --> 1:33:15.840 r I P bank windows, Wells Fargo being another one. 1:33:15.920 --> 1:33:19.120 Wells Fargo is a major contributor to the Atlantic Police Foundation. 1:33:20.600 --> 1:33:24.120 So this happens. Two cop cars that are just you know, 1:33:24.240 --> 1:33:28.639 blocks away, UM, that are sitting completely empty, get there, 1:33:28.960 --> 1:33:33.280 get their windows smashed. You know, there's there's there's fireworks 1:33:33.600 --> 1:33:37.360 going off around the crowd. Um. There's there's this one 1:33:37.439 --> 1:33:41.280 clip that I that I saw from some some some 1:33:41.439 --> 1:33:44.080 group that was live streaming UM that there was. There 1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:48.400 was a few a few officers like stationed beside the 1:33:48.680 --> 1:33:51.000 Atlantic Police Foundation and as soon as they as soon 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:54.479 as they heard fireworks, they again similarly just like ran 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:56.759 away as fast as they could. They were not equipped 1:33:56.880 --> 1:34:01.560 to deal with UM, to deal with a fireworks for 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:03.600 them were the main thing they seem to be scared of. 1:34:04.040 --> 1:34:09.040 So two to two cop carsgether when they're smashed. UM, 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:12.320 fireworks going around. March continues, goes for about a few 1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:18.040 more blocks and uh then Corker's notice police police are 1:34:18.080 --> 1:34:22.719 starting to come. Police are approaching the approaching the crowd. 1:34:22.840 --> 1:34:27.000 Head on, please start rushing towards the crowd. UM one 1:34:27.240 --> 1:34:31.120 they they tackle, tackle a few people holding a banner. UM, 1:34:31.200 --> 1:34:35.320 I think they they people. People scatter. The most of 1:34:35.360 --> 1:34:38.519 the crowd gets away. Most of the crowd splits up 1:34:38.560 --> 1:34:42.160 into into two groups. The largest chunk is able to 1:34:42.240 --> 1:34:45.559 move away from police presence. There's you know, people chanting, 1:34:45.640 --> 1:34:48.560 be water, you know, all of all the stuff. So 1:34:48.680 --> 1:34:51.880 most most people do successfully get away. The smaller, smaller 1:34:51.960 --> 1:34:56.200 section of people split off another direction. Cops follow. They 1:34:56.240 --> 1:34:58.040 are able to tackle and arrest a few a few 1:34:58.040 --> 1:35:00.360 more people in this in this group. In the end, 1:35:00.439 --> 1:35:04.800 it looks like there was six people arrested. Um, most 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:07.639 moost people got away. After all these arrests are happening, 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:11.960 people start noticing something that in the background a few 1:35:12.120 --> 1:35:15.840 a few blocks previous to where people were marching. Uh, 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:19.479 it looks there looks to be a glowing police car. Uh. 1:35:19.880 --> 1:35:22.640 So we we we look back, and sure enough in 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:26.480 an Atlanta police car is up in flames, um, completely 1:35:26.600 --> 1:35:34.160 completely completely glowing, huge, huge flames. So so as that happens, 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:37.240 more and more cops show up. This is where like 1:35:37.520 --> 1:35:40.840 the cops now are like taking over downtown. Um, you know, 1:35:41.080 --> 1:35:44.200 cops with with the Air fifteen or a er style 1:35:44.360 --> 1:35:47.799 rifles are are going around staring, starting to do patrols. 1:35:49.040 --> 1:35:51.840 So this is like the night. The night is over 1:35:51.960 --> 1:35:55.080 at this point. Now it's time for like people to 1:35:55.240 --> 1:35:58.560 scatter and leave, which is what people did. The The 1:35:58.680 --> 1:36:05.599 aftermath of this is super fascinating and unfortunate, if not unexpected. Uh. 1:36:05.800 --> 1:36:09.200 You know, there's been very little statements about the police 1:36:09.280 --> 1:36:13.120 killing of an of of tortequita of you know, an 1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:17.840 environmental activist UM force defender, but very very very little 1:36:17.840 --> 1:36:21.439 statements addressing this this matter at all. A huge flood 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:26.360 of statements. However, exte seeming to be extremely concerned that 1:36:26.640 --> 1:36:30.160 like a few windows were broken and that a cop 1:36:30.240 --> 1:36:33.560 car got torched. This this is and you know this, 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:35.960 this is this is less than a week after Martin 1:36:36.040 --> 1:36:41.519 Luther King day. Um, this is you know this is. 1:36:42.880 --> 1:36:46.519 The big quote was that the police chief a few 1:36:46.560 --> 1:36:52.040 hours later declared that breaking windows and starting fires is terrorism, 1:36:52.640 --> 1:36:56.559 which is a wild thing for a police chief to say. 1:36:56.720 --> 1:37:00.400 As the mayor stands behind nodding in agreement, it's one 1:37:00.439 --> 1:37:04.439 of the most fascist things that we've that has that 1:37:04.560 --> 1:37:07.320 has occurred in the United States. You cannot understate like 1:37:07.560 --> 1:37:10.040 the severity of yeah, like this, the severity of this, 1:37:10.240 --> 1:37:14.680 of this change in the types of framing by the 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:19.280 state to describe civil disobedience, to describe property destruction, to 1:37:19.360 --> 1:37:23.679 describe vandalism as a form of of of domestic terrorism 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:30.360 is is appalling. Um. I mean, if if this, if 1:37:30.439 --> 1:37:32.880 this holds up, then in states where this is done, 1:37:32.920 --> 1:37:37.080 there is effectively no longer any right to protest. Yeah, 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:39.360 And I mean, and we'll get into some some of 1:37:39.360 --> 1:37:41.560 the details of this in a bit, even in this 1:37:41.680 --> 1:37:44.439 in this episode, Um, and I think the the other 1:37:44.520 --> 1:37:47.320 side of this is that this is something that I've 1:37:47.360 --> 1:37:50.200 heard people talk about here on the ground, is that 1:37:51.479 --> 1:37:54.920 if if breaking windows is terrorism, right, if if if 1:37:55.120 --> 1:38:00.080 if the destruction of inanimate objects is terrorism, what what 1:38:00.200 --> 1:38:05.040 exactly is destroying an entire forest like this is? This 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:09.160 is like the juxtaposition that people are dealing with on 1:38:09.240 --> 1:38:13.600 the ground right now. So the end, the result of 1:38:13.680 --> 1:38:16.800 this is that we got six people who not six 1:38:16.880 --> 1:38:20.320 people who were to be clear arrested completely at random. 1:38:20.560 --> 1:38:23.439 This this was very clear. Police were tackling anyone they 1:38:23.520 --> 1:38:26.040 could get their hands on. They were not doing targeted arrests. 1:38:26.120 --> 1:38:28.840 They were not going after specific individuals who they suspected 1:38:29.479 --> 1:38:33.600 of of like actually doing crimes. Um they were. They 1:38:33.640 --> 1:38:36.600 were tackling random people, as is kind of usual for 1:38:36.680 --> 1:38:40.519 these sorts of things. But they have gotten a series 1:38:40.640 --> 1:38:45.960 of ridiculous charges um riot, arson, interviewing, interfering with government property, 1:38:47.000 --> 1:38:51.000 and also domestic terrorism and domestics. So this is domestic terrorism, 1:38:51.200 --> 1:38:53.240 not even for people that are like in the forest, 1:38:53.439 --> 1:38:59.000 just people protesting out on the street. Ums were broken, 1:38:59.360 --> 1:39:03.080 when windows broken, there's no evidence of this. The bail 1:39:03.200 --> 1:39:06.920 hearings were today as of being recorded. This is this 1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:09.920 is Monday, but bail hearings were today the judge. The 1:39:10.040 --> 1:39:13.960 judge for the hearings specifically said that these hearings are 1:39:14.000 --> 1:39:16.799 not to litigate the facts of the issue. What actually 1:39:17.439 --> 1:39:20.960 happened doesn't matter. There's there's obviously no evidence to support 1:39:21.120 --> 1:39:24.160 that any of these people arrested did any crimes. There's 1:39:24.320 --> 1:39:27.240 there's no evidence that that shows that the specific people 1:39:27.320 --> 1:39:31.760 arrested did anything beyond marching in the street. And that 1:39:32.000 --> 1:39:34.639 does not matter. That that that simply does does not matter. 1:39:34.760 --> 1:39:39.080 The brutality is the point in this case. To two 1:39:39.160 --> 1:39:43.439 people have had their bail set at three hundred and 1:39:43.520 --> 1:39:47.519 fifty five thousand dollars each, So that's over seven hundred 1:39:47.560 --> 1:39:51.000 thousand dollars for just two people's bail. The other four 1:39:51.080 --> 1:39:54.840 people arrested were deemed to be from out of state 1:39:55.000 --> 1:39:58.719 by the judge and then thus a flight risk, including 1:39:58.840 --> 1:40:01.960 people that are just like less than ninety minutes away 1:40:02.160 --> 1:40:04.880 in Tennessee. And again this this is like where people 1:40:04.920 --> 1:40:07.720 are born, there's this, there's this there's this sense that 1:40:07.880 --> 1:40:10.920 like people no longer have freedom to choose where they live, 1:40:11.320 --> 1:40:14.040 that people like no longer have any freedom of movement, 1:40:14.080 --> 1:40:15.920 that they no longer have the autonomy to go to 1:40:16.200 --> 1:40:20.080 two different places. You know, this is this is like 1:40:20.320 --> 1:40:23.840 in line with the outside agitator angle that's been being 1:40:23.920 --> 1:40:27.720 pushed by governments and media ever since, especially since this 1:40:27.840 --> 1:40:30.000 is in line with that sort of stuff. But because 1:40:30.120 --> 1:40:33.479 these people were deemed non local or a flight risk, 1:40:34.160 --> 1:40:36.479 these people are not getting any bond at all. These 1:40:36.520 --> 1:40:41.200 people are going to be held in jail. Definitely, it 1:40:41.280 --> 1:40:44.439 could this, This could literally be years. The legal system 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:48.920 is so slow and like being held in prison in 1:40:49.080 --> 1:40:52.800 jail for for years with no evidence presented that you 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:57.599 did literally anything wrong. Um. I've talked with a lot 1:40:57.640 --> 1:41:02.000 of people, people from Solidarity Fund, which will I'll mention 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:05.960 here at the end, and and you know, just just 1:41:06.120 --> 1:41:09.519 people around like what they're you know with people are 1:41:09.560 --> 1:41:13.240 getting arrested with no evidence and getting you know, indefinite 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:16.120 time in prison, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars 1:41:16.240 --> 1:41:21.760 to be released, like the the the obvious abuse of 1:41:21.800 --> 1:41:26.240 power by the state, UM the year audacity and uh, 1:41:26.439 --> 1:41:29.320 you know the extreme danger that if these, if these 1:41:29.560 --> 1:41:32.679 are able to to to stick and hold is incredibly 1:41:32.720 --> 1:41:38.200 frightening for any any kind of future, um, any future 1:41:38.360 --> 1:41:40.800 civil rights movement at all. Like this, it might say 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:46.120 that it's the strategic use of terror in order to 1:41:46.240 --> 1:41:49.200 achieve a political One might say that, and I mean 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:52.360 it's we're in Atlantic, the streets they're marching on, there's 1:41:52.439 --> 1:41:56.040 banners of Martin Luther King hanging above us like it's 1:41:56.080 --> 1:41:59.400 it's incredibly frustrating. The Solidarity Fund, which we interviewed on 1:41:59.439 --> 1:42:03.400 the show literally days before that, well with the episode 1:42:03.400 --> 1:42:06.840 released days before the killing of Tortuguita. UM. But the 1:42:06.880 --> 1:42:10.599 Alliance Solidarity Fund is providing both legal support and UM 1:42:10.720 --> 1:42:14.599 and and and bail for people arrested for political actions. 1:42:15.160 --> 1:42:18.920 The previous amount needed to bail out people was over 1:42:19.000 --> 1:42:21.080 a hundred thousand dollars, which is a lot of money, 1:42:21.720 --> 1:42:26.400 and now just just for two people, it's seven thousand 1:42:26.479 --> 1:42:32.200 more dollars. So the Atlanta Solidarity Fund desperately needs funds 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:37.640 to continue supporting people and to continue resisting state repression. UM. 1:42:37.840 --> 1:42:40.479 We'll talk about this more once I have my Deep 1:42:40.520 --> 1:42:44.719 Died episodes out on this topic. But it's it's crucial 1:42:45.080 --> 1:42:49.160 that that if if if anyone cares about people's right 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:54.160 to protest, to people's people's you know, ability to resist 1:42:54.439 --> 1:42:58.439 state violence. UM, then it's it's absolutely crucial that that 1:42:58.640 --> 1:43:03.840 people support the solidarity on right now. Ah. Just just 1:43:03.960 --> 1:43:07.479 today I went to another another kind of vigil UM 1:43:07.680 --> 1:43:12.040 at Emery College here in Atlanta. More more people were 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:16.200 sharing stories of tort Um. One person was reading out 1:43:16.240 --> 1:43:19.880 a letter that they sent to sent to their UM 1:43:20.320 --> 1:43:23.280 comrades in Italy who are setting up a vigil as well. 1:43:23.520 --> 1:43:26.200 There's been a good amount of international support, as I've 1:43:26.200 --> 1:43:30.840 seen vigils from Germany, UM from Italy. There's been there's 1:43:30.880 --> 1:43:35.479 been events, demos, rallies, UM direct actions and vigils all 1:43:35.560 --> 1:43:39.559 across the United States UM about to defend the land 1:43:39.560 --> 1:43:45.880 of forest and about the killing of Tortoquita people. People 1:43:45.960 --> 1:43:50.000 here absolutely do appreciate the solidarity. And the other thing 1:43:50.040 --> 1:43:52.000 people are saying is that, I mean, all of these 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:54.120 tactics are meant to scare people away from the idea 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:57.559 of protesting and people are still needed on the ground here. 1:43:57.640 --> 1:44:00.479 This fight is not This fight is not over, UM, 1:44:01.320 --> 1:44:03.760 this is this is not this is not the end. 1:44:04.439 --> 1:44:06.960 You know, Tactics may have to change, tactics may have 1:44:07.040 --> 1:44:10.160 to shift, people may have to approach things from from 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:13.640 UM you know, different angles. But it's not over, and 1:44:13.720 --> 1:44:16.320 there's there's people have said that there's still a need 1:44:16.960 --> 1:44:20.280 for you know, for support, rules, for people on the ground, 1:44:20.880 --> 1:44:24.120 for people to be in Atlanta, because it's not done. 1:44:25.160 --> 1:44:28.280 I mean, I think there's a lot of sentiment on 1:44:28.400 --> 1:44:31.320 the left that what's happening in the Atlanta Forest defense 1:44:31.439 --> 1:44:34.760 is probably the most important radical action going on in 1:44:34.840 --> 1:44:37.360 the country right now. And I think there's a few 1:44:37.439 --> 1:44:41.960 reasons for that. Um not just the fact that the 1:44:42.080 --> 1:44:44.400 forest that is going to be torn down for cops 1:44:44.400 --> 1:44:46.760 city is a crucial part of the city of Atlanta's 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:50.720 tree cover, and that all of this ties into both 1:44:51.360 --> 1:44:56.280 the impossibility of actually combating climate change under the present 1:44:56.400 --> 1:45:01.360 system and the complicity of the police in in making 1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:04.960 it impossible to combat that um or even to mitigate 1:45:05.000 --> 1:45:07.680 it in many cases. But but I think what you've 1:45:07.720 --> 1:45:11.559 gotten to is probably the most direct the most directly 1:45:11.680 --> 1:45:14.920 frightening thing about what's going on in Atlanta, and the 1:45:15.000 --> 1:45:17.280 thing that's most relevant to the future of any kind 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:22.080 of resistance in this country, which is, um, the the 1:45:22.160 --> 1:45:25.400 gloves are are coming off right the the this is 1:45:25.560 --> 1:45:28.960 this is not going to be the last time that 1:45:29.160 --> 1:45:35.640 state security forces use the fact that terrorism has a 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:39.519 special place in American law and that crimes that are 1:45:39.600 --> 1:45:44.240 deemed to be terrorism, Um, open up the ability of 1:45:44.320 --> 1:45:46.439 the government to act in ways that they normally are 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:49.280 not supposed to be able to act. Um, Like that 1:45:49.600 --> 1:45:51.600 is going to be It's not going to be just 1:45:51.840 --> 1:45:54.400 forest defenders that gets used on. It's going to be 1:45:55.080 --> 1:45:57.760 anyone who ever carries out any kind of act of 1:45:57.840 --> 1:46:01.800 protest that has a chance of setting the balance of power, 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:06.799 um in this country. Like, that's that's where this is headed. 1:46:06.960 --> 1:46:09.439 And UM, it's a bummer. Do you want to talk 1:46:09.479 --> 1:46:14.439 a little bit about the role of the media in this, 1:46:14.760 --> 1:46:19.080 because that is something that is I'm certain going to 1:46:19.160 --> 1:46:22.640 be of We just had a thing today where some 1:46:22.760 --> 1:46:27.120 weirdo lefties on the true and on subreddit decided and 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:30.200 someone on Twitter decided to accuse me of getting a 1:46:30.280 --> 1:46:32.920 bunch of people in Atlanta arrested for terrorism because I 1:46:33.000 --> 1:46:36.240 interviewed them on camera. I've I've never interviewed anyone in Atlanta, 1:46:36.640 --> 1:46:39.840 I said, I simply have never worked there. Um. I'm 1:46:39.880 --> 1:46:42.240 not sure where the rumors started, but it's it's reigniting 1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:44.560 this kind of debate about it seems it seems like 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:49.080 tanky stuff. It's it's it's it's nonsense, But it has reignited, 1:46:49.080 --> 1:46:50.879 and I saw this on the it could happen here subreddit, 1:46:50.960 --> 1:46:54.519 people talking about like, um, obviously, you know this is nonsense, 1:46:54.600 --> 1:46:57.120 but it is a you know, looking at these terrorism charges, 1:46:57.160 --> 1:47:01.639 it's a simple fact that activists should never talk to press. 1:47:01.920 --> 1:47:05.679 And um, obviously a lot of these arrests had nothing 1:47:05.760 --> 1:47:09.639 to do with anyone talking to the media. Like folks 1:47:09.720 --> 1:47:12.599 were present at a riot and the cops were tackling folks. 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:16.080 That's that's nobody but the cops's fault. But there's a 1:47:16.240 --> 1:47:19.640 there's a there's a conversation to be had about what 1:47:19.880 --> 1:47:22.920 is the what is the smart balance in terms of 1:47:24.240 --> 1:47:28.720 getting pr and getting press coverage and getting word of 1:47:28.840 --> 1:47:33.240 mouth about a radical movement and the fact that doing 1:47:33.360 --> 1:47:36.400 that will inevitably ramp up pressure. Like that is that 1:47:36.600 --> 1:47:41.080 is a reality that when when radical activists get attention 1:47:41.200 --> 1:47:44.760 from the media, the state cracks down. Now does that 1:47:44.960 --> 1:47:49.320 mean that the media is responsible for the movement getting 1:47:49.360 --> 1:47:51.880 cracked down or does it simply mean that the cops 1:47:52.120 --> 1:47:54.759 judge whether or not something's a threat by the amount 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:57.200 of press that it's getting. You know, the the this 1:47:57.400 --> 1:48:00.320 is this is an ongoing like thing. People they're going 1:48:00.360 --> 1:48:02.720 to be talking about in a lot of ways. It's 1:48:02.720 --> 1:48:06.439 a continuation of conversations people were having in But I'm 1:48:06.479 --> 1:48:09.960 interested in because when you went over there, we had 1:48:10.000 --> 1:48:13.040 a little a few hours of debate after it became 1:48:13.120 --> 1:48:16.479 clear that the cops had killed a forest defender over like, Okay, 1:48:16.600 --> 1:48:19.240 what's the right thing to do? Should should Garrison head 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:22.240 over to Atlanta? Um? Should we have some boots on 1:48:22.280 --> 1:48:24.200 the ground for this, because you've been covering it for 1:48:24.320 --> 1:48:26.800 so long and one of the things you pointed out 1:48:26.880 --> 1:48:30.240 is that there was a call for media coverage from 1:48:30.439 --> 1:48:32.800 people who were on the ground in Atlanta. Yes, this 1:48:32.960 --> 1:48:34.880 is something I will get born into when I go 1:48:35.680 --> 1:48:38.759 in depth with this for an upcoming episode, probably probably 1:48:38.880 --> 1:48:43.360 probably a two parter um. That's this is a conversation 1:48:43.439 --> 1:48:45.479 that people are constantly having in Atlanta. This is a 1:48:45.520 --> 1:48:49.120 conversation I've been having with people NonStop ever since coming here, 1:48:49.360 --> 1:48:51.760 ever since before coming here. I you know, this is 1:48:52.080 --> 1:48:55.360 something I don't want to just parachute into someone else's city. 1:48:55.400 --> 1:48:59.200 I had conversations with multiple people before before coming over. 1:48:59.520 --> 1:49:02.080 There's a few aspects to this. The amount of people 1:49:02.160 --> 1:49:04.640 doing stuff, and you know how many people are in 1:49:04.680 --> 1:49:07.320 the forest, not a not a giant number of people. 1:49:07.439 --> 1:49:10.000 There's not hundreds of people living in the woods. There's 1:49:10.560 --> 1:49:14.880 there's not there's there's not there's not tons of people. Um. Uh. 1:49:15.000 --> 1:49:18.120 An intentional media strategy has been a part of this 1:49:18.280 --> 1:49:24.040 movement since the beginning. UM, even among the insurrectionary anarchists 1:49:24.200 --> 1:49:27.400 who are here. Uh, this is this has been something 1:49:27.479 --> 1:49:31.840 that people have been you know, working on as as 1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:35.200 a part of a decentralized movement, having conversations about. Uh. 1:49:35.360 --> 1:49:38.320 There's been a lot of There's been coverage in the 1:49:38.479 --> 1:49:43.720 Rolling Stone that people here seem to be pretty happy with. UM. Yeah, 1:49:43.760 --> 1:49:46.200 it was very and the Guardian also published. People have 1:49:46.280 --> 1:49:49.120 been people have been pretty happy article. People have been 1:49:49.200 --> 1:49:52.800 very pretty happy with coverage from the Guardian. Um, there's 1:49:52.880 --> 1:49:54.960 a people have been pretty happy with some stuff from 1:49:55.000 --> 1:50:00.240 a J plus. Um. People have been um, decent lee 1:50:00.920 --> 1:50:03.680 happy with the work that I've done on this. But 1:50:03.800 --> 1:50:07.120 based on many conversation dozens and dozens of conversations I 1:50:07.200 --> 1:50:12.000 have I've had with people here. UM, Ultimately, I don't 1:50:13.200 --> 1:50:17.519 for what for what cops are doing in the forest. 1:50:17.680 --> 1:50:19.519 I don't think there seems to be a clear correlation 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:24.600 between media coverage happening of stuff of of you know, 1:50:24.800 --> 1:50:27.759 the movement and cops response to the forest. There doesn't, 1:50:27.800 --> 1:50:30.760 there does, there's no linked timeline there. Cops are doing 1:50:30.800 --> 1:50:33.040 stuff in the forest because they want the forest clearance 1:50:33.040 --> 1:50:36.200 that they can build their police training, their police training facility. 1:50:36.760 --> 1:50:40.200 From what I've talked with people, the amount of pressure 1:50:40.400 --> 1:50:43.599 that has been caused by media covering the forest has 1:50:43.640 --> 1:50:47.639 not only elongated the construction process, elongated the the amount 1:50:47.760 --> 1:50:49.880 that stuff that they're that they're able to do. It's 1:50:49.960 --> 1:50:52.000 it is, it has it has made it harder because 1:50:52.760 --> 1:50:55.240 this is this this is not a very popular proposal. 1:50:55.640 --> 1:50:59.000 Even even before the encampments started, it was estimated that, 1:50:59.120 --> 1:51:02.519 like people in Atlanta were not for this, we're not 1:51:02.600 --> 1:51:05.840 for the construction of this facility. So I think people 1:51:05.920 --> 1:51:09.240 people make a lot of intentional media choices. That's not 1:51:09.360 --> 1:51:13.439 to say that there isn't also um intentionally harmful actors 1:51:13.600 --> 1:51:18.479 who are trying to frame this as Atlanta burning down 1:51:18.600 --> 1:51:22.880 Atlanta and disorder Antifa taking over sections of Atlanta. That 1:51:23.080 --> 1:51:25.639 is absolutely another part of it. But there's a very 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:29.400 people here have a very clear distinction between between um 1:51:29.680 --> 1:51:33.559 bad actors between people who are you know, providing accurate, fair, 1:51:33.640 --> 1:51:36.320 coverage of what's going on. UM, and then you know 1:51:36.400 --> 1:51:38.160 people who are just out to profit, which is you know, 1:51:38.200 --> 1:51:41.920 like a lot of like local TV channels. UM, there's there. 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:45.879 I think stuff that happened on the protests on Saturdays 1:51:46.040 --> 1:51:49.240 is a good example. There's this far right account that 1:51:49.400 --> 1:51:52.360 I'm not going to name, um at least not yet. 1:51:52.400 --> 1:51:54.040 I might. I might talk about it in the future. 1:51:54.520 --> 1:51:57.600 UM who you know, tries to collect information on on protesters. 1:51:57.680 --> 1:52:00.559 They had there, They have someone on the on two films. 1:52:00.600 --> 1:52:03.719 They also a really good aggregate of like random people's 1:52:03.880 --> 1:52:07.439 instagram and TikTok's or snapchats of you know, filming filming 1:52:07.479 --> 1:52:12.679 people from unfortunate angles. UM. The local local TV like Fox, 1:52:12.840 --> 1:52:15.439 like the like the local Fox news station, you know, 1:52:15.800 --> 1:52:19.160 tries to get as much sensational footage of crimes as possible. 1:52:19.720 --> 1:52:21.880 And you know, people people, to the best their ability, 1:52:22.479 --> 1:52:25.000 well you know, try to try to block them off 1:52:25.040 --> 1:52:27.280 with like umbrellas if they see that happening, but you know, 1:52:27.360 --> 1:52:31.920 you can it's it's me. There's definitely a clear tension 1:52:32.000 --> 1:52:34.439 that people in the movement do not want the media 1:52:34.560 --> 1:52:38.599 narratives around this to solely be decided by the state 1:52:39.040 --> 1:52:42.080 and be decided against people who are in clear opposition 1:52:42.280 --> 1:52:46.160 to them. That is, that is absolutely something that people 1:52:46.160 --> 1:52:50.200 are putting and putting attention in. Uh. They just that's 1:52:50.479 --> 1:52:54.120 because that that creates a lot of really really harmful scenarios. 1:52:54.160 --> 1:52:56.679 Because there's the state itself is already a pretty powerful 1:52:56.840 --> 1:53:00.520 propaganda machine. Already a lot of local news just agitates 1:53:00.800 --> 1:53:03.479 state talking points. Right, this is the idea of the 1:53:03.560 --> 1:53:06.679 fourth Estate. There is does seem to be a pretty 1:53:07.400 --> 1:53:09.599 a distinction between stuff like the fourth Estate and stuff 1:53:09.680 --> 1:53:12.680 like the derivative idea of the fifth Estate of being 1:53:12.760 --> 1:53:16.599 more of like the people's voice for for for for these, 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:19.720 for these sorts of movements. Also in that vein there's 1:53:19.720 --> 1:53:23.600 stuff like the Atlanta People's Press, which is like decentralized 1:53:24.000 --> 1:53:28.200 media collective UM run by a lot of like rad 1:53:28.760 --> 1:53:32.800 people who who who helped to coordinate media coverage, who 1:53:32.840 --> 1:53:35.960 helped to coordinate UM stuff with I mean they have 1:53:36.160 --> 1:53:38.479 they have worked with people, They've worked with us on 1:53:38.560 --> 1:53:41.960 our on the on the history of the old Atlanta 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:45.519 prison farm. So I would say there's a lot of 1:53:45.880 --> 1:53:49.960 thought put into media strategy UM and not like in 1:53:50.080 --> 1:53:53.960 like a Libby like optics way, but like actual effective 1:53:54.040 --> 1:53:57.439 media strategy that will improve material conditions and will help 1:53:57.920 --> 1:54:02.400 push the goals of the movement forward, the goal being 1:54:02.560 --> 1:54:05.519 that the construction of cop City does does not continue. 1:54:05.840 --> 1:54:08.200 So there's a lot of thought going into that and 1:54:08.360 --> 1:54:11.800 they and that is viewed as another like that that 1:54:11.960 --> 1:54:15.679 is another wing of of the effort. Right, There's there's 1:54:15.680 --> 1:54:18.599 stuff like the encampments, there's stuff like sabotage, there's stuff 1:54:18.640 --> 1:54:21.720 like protests. There's stuff like you know, like a a 1:54:21.960 --> 1:54:24.400 very above board stuff you know that like very u 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:28.200 you know, like a of above grand organizations will do 1:54:28.360 --> 1:54:32.440 like you know, writing campaigns, calling campaigns and media strategy 1:54:32.520 --> 1:54:35.400 is another angle of this because to completely give up 1:54:35.840 --> 1:54:39.440 the public perception of what's going on to the state 1:54:40.400 --> 1:54:43.920 is seen as a bad thing. So, but this is 1:54:44.000 --> 1:54:47.560 this is absolutely a contentious topic. I think people in 1:54:47.640 --> 1:54:51.200 Atlanta have a lot of nuanced conversations about this, and 1:54:52.280 --> 1:54:54.640 media stuff is handled with a lot more intention here 1:54:54.880 --> 1:54:58.360 than it has been in the Pacific Northwest. Um, that 1:54:58.560 --> 1:55:02.240 is my that is my subject of opinion. But based 1:55:02.280 --> 1:55:05.200 on based on it's a smaller community, so I think 1:55:05.240 --> 1:55:08.880 maybe it's easier. It does seem like there's more solidarity 1:55:08.960 --> 1:55:12.600 within the community and a shared vision. I wouldn't say 1:55:12.640 --> 1:55:16.600 that's true. There is the community is forced to reinforce itself. 1:55:17.080 --> 1:55:20.800 It is small enough that it cannot treat people as disposable. Um. 1:55:21.040 --> 1:55:23.440 It needs to maintain the people that it has. And 1:55:23.520 --> 1:55:26.240 so people work through problems, people work through conflicts and 1:55:26.280 --> 1:55:28.560 ways to actually resolve it and keep going to build 1:55:28.600 --> 1:55:31.400 everyone up and make them stronger. There's a shared community 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:34.840 space which I've I've been to a few times, um, 1:55:34.840 --> 1:55:38.360 and I think even just something like that is so 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:43.200 is so useful in being able to actually keep something 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:46.320 that resembles a community. You see a lot of anarchists, 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.560 um talk about how like community isn't a real thing. 1:55:49.640 --> 1:55:53.720 There isn't actually community, um, you know. Or and in 1:55:53.800 --> 1:55:55.440 a lot of places, I would say that's that's true. 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:59.360 A lot of places are just click driven, um you know, uh, 1:56:00.280 --> 1:56:03.440 drama it it honestly gets towards or like interesting conflict 1:56:03.480 --> 1:56:05.440 if if you don't want to use sword drama um. 1:56:06.000 --> 1:56:12.400 Whereas circular firing squad type ship. Yeah. Whereas here there 1:56:12.560 --> 1:56:14.960 is such a feeling of actual community like that that 1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:17.640 actually is a thing here because people are forced to 1:56:17.680 --> 1:56:20.840 foster it. We're in the South we're surrounded where you 1:56:20.920 --> 1:56:23.280 know you're you're surrounded by a lot of people who 1:56:23.320 --> 1:56:26.280 want to hurt you. Um, Atlanta is the most surveilled city. 1:56:26.520 --> 1:56:29.360 There's so many different police forces. There's a police force 1:56:29.400 --> 1:56:31.520 for Fulton County, the police force for De Cab County, 1:56:31.520 --> 1:56:34.280 it's a police force for Atlanta. There's the Georgia State Patrol. 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:37.400 There's the Georgia Buer of Investigation. There's the Georgia Department 1:56:37.400 --> 1:56:40.800 of Homeland Security. There's so many people, so many agencies 1:56:40.880 --> 1:56:44.080 are involved in this. There's so much, so much outwards 1:56:44.560 --> 1:56:48.600 um threats to people that you really are forced to 1:56:48.800 --> 1:56:52.120 keep people, uh, keep people close and and trust the 1:56:52.160 --> 1:56:56.480 people around you because the consequences are quite dire. UM. 1:56:56.560 --> 1:56:58.440 So people take things very seriously and they put a 1:56:58.520 --> 1:57:01.240 lot of thought into into a lot of into a 1:57:01.280 --> 1:57:05.840 lot of things. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean that 1:57:06.000 --> 1:57:09.680 that also jells with my own experience in the South. Right, 1:57:10.320 --> 1:57:16.040 it's it's easier to find communities of people who are 1:57:16.440 --> 1:57:21.040 um doing anything kind of radical because there's that that 1:57:21.160 --> 1:57:24.560 bunker mentality. Right, you're under siege, you're surrounded on all sides, 1:57:25.240 --> 1:57:27.920 and um, you know that that's very different when you 1:57:28.000 --> 1:57:31.440 go to a place where there's kind of more like 1:57:31.640 --> 1:57:34.080 what what would be in other places, deviancy is more 1:57:34.120 --> 1:57:38.120 than norm um. And yeah, I guess that that is 1:57:38.320 --> 1:57:41.120 probably has a lot to do with the fact that 1:57:42.160 --> 1:57:44.960 this forest defense has so far been so successful in 1:57:45.040 --> 1:57:49.480 delaying the construction of this facility which it which it 1:57:49.600 --> 1:57:54.800 has construction construction deadlines continue to have been passed and 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:57.600 been passed and been passed. It has the very least 1:57:57.680 --> 1:58:01.480 showed that stuff like this can be resisted and significantly delayed. 1:58:01.880 --> 1:58:04.920 And at this point they're projecting construction won't be complete 1:58:04.960 --> 1:58:08.480 for about four more years. And again these deadlines keep 1:58:08.520 --> 1:58:10.320 getting pushed back and back, and that is really what 1:58:10.400 --> 1:58:13.080 the movement is trying to do, keep these deadlines getting 1:58:13.080 --> 1:58:15.680 pushed back and back until they just give up on 1:58:15.720 --> 1:58:17.440 the project or try to put it somewhere else. And 1:58:17.440 --> 1:58:19.120 if they try to put somewhere and if they try 1:58:19.120 --> 1:58:21.560 to put it somewhere else, then the forest was defended. 1:58:21.840 --> 1:58:23.760 But then there's still the top cop city aspect of 1:58:23.840 --> 1:58:25.880 being like, yeah, it can go somewhere else, but we 1:58:26.120 --> 1:58:27.480 we don't want it there at all. And then at 1:58:27.520 --> 1:58:30.920 that point the movement would change, you know, very significantly. 1:58:31.200 --> 1:58:33.240 But in terms of the defend the Atlanta Forest aspect 1:58:33.280 --> 1:58:36.400 of this. Right, the whole goal is to make to 1:58:36.560 --> 1:58:40.120 make this as unenticing as possible. UM. And there's a 1:58:40.160 --> 1:58:44.400 multitude of strategies involved in that UM, including stuff like propaganda, 1:58:44.480 --> 1:58:50.960 madget prop media strategy, sabotage, direct action calling campaigns, stuff 1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:54.520 about pressuring the construction agencies, all all those sort of things. 1:58:55.360 --> 1:58:58.280 That's so much more because what you're talking about is 1:58:58.440 --> 1:59:00.600 is what we call, in sort of calm flick studies, 1:59:00.680 --> 1:59:04.920 a strategy of friction, right, UM, and and so much 1:59:05.320 --> 1:59:08.320 there's so always so much focus on kind of these 1:59:08.400 --> 1:59:11.919 like we had in Portland, and these like grand moments 1:59:12.200 --> 1:59:15.520 that are are very visually spectacular of resistance, but what 1:59:15.680 --> 1:59:21.080 actually what actually wins Because the state has the ability 1:59:21.120 --> 1:59:23.080 to take a lot of hits, it is a it 1:59:23.200 --> 1:59:25.880 is a durable force. And if you're going up against 1:59:25.880 --> 1:59:29.720 a durable force, the only way to win victories is 1:59:29.800 --> 1:59:33.520 to be durable yourself and to wear away at them. 1:59:33.560 --> 1:59:38.840 It's it's friction, UM. And I think that's like, that's 1:59:38.880 --> 1:59:41.920 still the winning play is to keep up pressure. It's 1:59:42.000 --> 1:59:45.040 just the kinds of pressure, especially now that they've cleared 1:59:45.040 --> 1:59:47.560 out the tree sitters and stuff. And now that we've 1:59:47.600 --> 1:59:49.920 seen what they're going to do to people who are 1:59:50.160 --> 1:59:54.000 arrested at demonstrations, the kinds of friction that completely be 1:59:54.160 --> 1:59:57.880 applied have to change otherwise the movement's going to get 1:59:57.920 --> 2:00:01.280 worn down before the state does. In this fight. Something 2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:06.320 that Tortuguita has said is that the state is very 2:00:06.360 --> 2:00:09.360 good at doing violence. We we cannot we we cannot 2:00:09.480 --> 2:00:13.200 beat the state at violence. The states, the state will 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:16.680 probably win that game. That's that's that's the entire point 2:00:16.760 --> 2:00:19.040 of the state that like, the state has a monopoly 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:22.600 on violence. That is the entire point. They will win that. Um. 2:00:23.080 --> 2:00:26.760 But there but there are other ways where we can 2:00:26.880 --> 2:00:31.680 see successes, and we have seen successes before. UM. So 2:00:33.560 --> 2:00:37.000 it's not over. It will probably grow and change. UM 2:00:37.640 --> 2:00:40.960 what actually happens will remain to be seen. But I 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:43.760 am um just I'm prepping to go through a whole 2:00:43.800 --> 2:00:47.800 bunch of my audio files and uh and and and 2:00:48.120 --> 2:00:51.879 piece and piece together kind of a pretty pretty distinct 2:00:52.920 --> 2:00:55.920 deep dive. That is, it is a true a true 2:00:55.960 --> 2:00:59.080 successor to the to the original on the ground at 2:00:59.120 --> 2:01:01.160 the Defend the Atlanta Force episodes that I did last 2:01:01.240 --> 2:01:04.200 May so well, I look forward to that. I'm sure 2:01:04.320 --> 2:01:07.720 I know everyone else's as well. Um, thank you for 2:01:08.320 --> 2:01:11.600 going over there and uh and being in the thick 2:01:11.640 --> 2:01:15.120 of it, and um, yeah, we'll we'll continue to cover 2:01:15.560 --> 2:01:19.080 this story as best we can. But whatever comes in 2:01:19.160 --> 2:01:38.280 the future, all right, I think that's an episode. Welcome 2:01:38.280 --> 2:01:40.800 to Dick It happened here, a podcast about things falling 2:01:40.800 --> 2:01:43.760 apart and how to put them back together again. I'm 2:01:43.800 --> 2:01:46.040 your host, me along and today I am returning to 2:01:46.160 --> 2:01:49.160 my roots and the ceed criminal anarchist hacker underground, which 2:01:49.160 --> 2:01:51.960 has gotten much less ceed and somehow even more gay 2:01:52.040 --> 2:01:56.120 since I was last there and with with me to 2:01:56.160 --> 2:01:59.080 talk about this is Maya Arson Crime You who is 2:01:59.280 --> 2:02:01.960 most recently famous is the person who owned an airline 2:02:02.040 --> 2:02:04.000 so hard they got a copy of the fucking no 2:02:04.240 --> 2:02:12.400 flight list, which is yeah, just just first any things. Yeah, so, Maya, 2:02:12.440 --> 2:02:13.840 how how are how are you? How are you doing? 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:18.800 Being deluged with when Trilli an interview requests and um, 2:02:19.560 --> 2:02:22.880 so yeah, it's not my first time experiencing like a 2:02:23.360 --> 2:02:26.680 big news cycle, but this is certainly the biggest one yet. 2:02:26.760 --> 2:02:29.360 It's I'm surprised that this is bigger than the one 2:02:29.440 --> 2:02:32.520 life Happy for with other stories. Yeah, but I feel 2:02:32.560 --> 2:02:35.880 like becoming a transfermime. At the same time, I have 2:02:36.080 --> 2:02:40.960 like a national security new cycle going on probably helped 2:02:41.000 --> 2:02:44.760 a bit. I'm I'm I'm very happy for weed Cat, 2:02:44.960 --> 2:02:48.160 like that that that that cat did, like that every 2:02:48.240 --> 2:02:50.240 every single other thing that has happened to weed Cat 2:02:50.360 --> 2:02:54.680 is like done that thing dirty. But I'm happy for Yeah, 2:02:54.720 --> 2:02:57.040 we kind is now just like a hacking icon and 2:02:57.160 --> 2:02:59.720 I'm so here for it. Did he see like like 2:03:00.040 --> 2:03:03.280 like just like like fifteen minutes before we got uncalled 2:03:03.320 --> 2:03:06.720 there's now a like Bengle meme from the SCP Foundation 2:03:06.920 --> 2:03:10.720 on Oh my god, they commissioned an artist to make 2:03:10.920 --> 2:03:14.440 a like it has just turned into a thing now 2:03:14.720 --> 2:03:16.880 like that that's the way. It's so good. It's not 2:03:17.000 --> 2:03:19.680 even it's not even like the whole hacking story anymore. 2:03:19.760 --> 2:03:22.120 It's just the fact that I tingled into a meme 2:03:22.840 --> 2:03:26.760 like how how Yeah, and especially that Bengal turned into 2:03:26.760 --> 2:03:28.800 a meme because that started as a like discord in 2:03:28.960 --> 2:03:32.120 joke like that that's all it was. And now it's 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:35.360 the name of this cat. But okay, so we should 2:03:35.360 --> 2:03:36.960 explain for it for people, for people who don't know 2:03:37.000 --> 2:03:39.440 what this cat is. This is the Pokemon spriggary sprig. 2:03:39.800 --> 2:03:44.280 How do you? I don't know how to properly pronounce it. 2:03:45.200 --> 2:03:48.600 It's it's Italian. I'm under no obligation to pronounce an 2:03:48.640 --> 2:03:53.880 Italian sounding thing correctly. It's fine. Yeah, it's the wheat cat. 2:03:55.360 --> 2:03:57.560 Like wheat cat and Bengle are now the only two 2:03:57.600 --> 2:04:03.400 acceptable names for this that the Yeah, but in in 2:04:03.640 --> 2:04:05.800 in in the blog where you went through and talked 2:04:05.800 --> 2:04:08.840 about how you got the no filist by owning this thing, 2:04:09.120 --> 2:04:13.920 you posted a picture of of of this. Yeah, I 2:04:14.040 --> 2:04:16.800 did actually like take that picture while I was like 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:20.080 hacking this stuff and like talking in some like small 2:04:20.160 --> 2:04:23.120 friends discord about it, and I just posted that together 2:04:23.240 --> 2:04:26.800 with like the phrase this aviation should get serious. That's 2:04:26.840 --> 2:04:29.000 why that's also in the blog. I expected that to 2:04:29.160 --> 2:04:31.880 become the meme that blows up that this aviation ship 2:04:32.240 --> 2:04:37.520 gets serious, because that's just so stupid. Yeah, but I 2:04:37.600 --> 2:04:40.240 guess Bengle it is. And that's funny because yeah, it 2:04:40.360 --> 2:04:42.840 was just an in choke nonsense word and now the 2:04:43.040 --> 2:04:45.920 entire world knows about it and it's like a transferm thing. 2:04:46.160 --> 2:04:51.000 It rules, it rules. Yeah, So okay, I guess we 2:04:51.000 --> 2:04:54.440 should talk about what actually you did, so I I 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:57.640 am not a very technical person. I'm out here defined 2:04:57.880 --> 2:05:03.040 like defying transcise stereotypes by such being asset coding. Um So, 2:05:03.240 --> 2:05:06.560 my my understanding of what happened is you were browsing 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:08.720 a list of servers that are cocking to the Internet 2:05:08.800 --> 2:05:11.200 that you can use through sort of like various search 2:05:11.280 --> 2:05:14.400 engines that do this, and you stop. You stumbled upon 2:05:15.960 --> 2:05:18.120 the server that belongs to commute Air and then they 2:05:18.240 --> 2:05:21.160 just like I had a bunch of hard coded privileges there, 2:05:21.320 --> 2:05:26.600 and like us, it's it's still it's still funny to me. 2:05:26.840 --> 2:05:30.040 How Like I realized what it was because I saw, 2:05:30.120 --> 2:05:32.400 like there word eight cars and stuff, and I was like, wait, 2:05:32.520 --> 2:05:35.880 that that reminds me of like mentor Pilot YouTube videos, 2:05:36.000 --> 2:05:39.000 because of course I'm an autistic transfer and binge watch 2:05:39.280 --> 2:05:43.200 mentor Pilot while eating dinner. Um So, so that is 2:05:43.280 --> 2:05:46.160 the only reason I clocked it as like an aviation thing, 2:05:46.240 --> 2:05:48.600 and that's something I should dig into deeper, because, like 2:05:49.080 --> 2:05:51.879 you can imagine, like while I'm going through these search results, 2:05:52.000 --> 2:05:54.440 I'm looking at like hundreds of servers in a day, 2:05:54.520 --> 2:05:56.680 and most of the stuff I decided is boring or 2:05:56.760 --> 2:05:58.680 it was too easy to hack, so I'm not going 2:05:58.800 --> 2:06:02.680 further because I have a h d um So yeah, 2:06:02.760 --> 2:06:04.880 and then this cause it was like, wait, that's an 2:06:04.920 --> 2:06:09.200 aviation word. I've heard that before. Um, So I take 2:06:09.280 --> 2:06:13.200 a little deeper and there were just passwords there, and 2:06:13.480 --> 2:06:17.040 and then like two minutes after I found that server, 2:06:17.280 --> 2:06:19.880 I was looking at like a car's messages, as in 2:06:20.000 --> 2:06:24.000 like messaging between ground stations and the airplanes, and that 2:06:24.240 --> 2:06:26.640 was just like, yeah, this is a story, and started 2:06:26.640 --> 2:06:29.560 tweeting about it, looking for journalists to work with because 2:06:30.040 --> 2:06:32.200 with stories like this, I like to work with journalists 2:06:32.200 --> 2:06:34.200 from the very start because I want to make sure 2:06:34.240 --> 2:06:36.680 it doesn't get wiped under the rock when I reported 2:06:36.800 --> 2:06:40.120 to a company. So I make sure that when I 2:06:40.320 --> 2:06:43.440 do reach out and get things fixed, I reach out 2:06:43.600 --> 2:06:46.800 via journalists so that the company's not yet this is 2:06:46.880 --> 2:06:49.040 being reported on, so they can't be like, yeah, we 2:06:49.120 --> 2:06:51.400 will fix it under the condition that you never tell 2:06:51.440 --> 2:06:55.080 anyone about our bad security. Because like the whole point 2:06:55.160 --> 2:06:59.160 of what I'm doing is exposing like the security issues, 2:06:59.560 --> 2:07:02.640 but also exposing yeah, with a political background at the 2:07:02.720 --> 2:07:05.560 end of the day. Yeah, And I guess like another thing, 2:07:05.560 --> 2:07:07.200 I don't I don't know how many people sort of 2:07:07.840 --> 2:07:09.920 are aware of this. But like another thing that has 2:07:09.960 --> 2:07:11.720 happened with people who have tried to go to companies 2:07:11.800 --> 2:07:13.800 and been like, hey, here's the security thing is like 2:07:14.240 --> 2:07:17.320 the company tries to like go after them criminally, like immediately, 2:07:18.120 --> 2:07:23.160 which sucks. Ass end is the worst. Yeah, so so 2:07:23.400 --> 2:07:25.640 so from that stand but it doesn't even matter if 2:07:25.720 --> 2:07:28.280 I like do it, like this are actually reported to them, 2:07:28.360 --> 2:07:30.920 But this way I get to talk about the publicly 2:07:31.040 --> 2:07:33.960 and like that's important, not because I'm on cloud, like 2:07:34.080 --> 2:07:40.680 I don't mind the cloud, but like yeah, yeah, and 2:07:40.800 --> 2:07:46.200 so okay, so uh, there's there's been a lot of 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:48.720 focus on the fact that you found the no fly 2:07:48.880 --> 2:07:54.240 list on there, which is very funny. But okay, why 2:07:54.600 --> 2:07:58.160 like okay, one thing I'm trying to figure out why 2:07:58.320 --> 2:08:00.480 was there? Why were there just message used from like 2:08:00.600 --> 2:08:03.360 ground cruise to airplane just like sitting around on this 2:08:03.560 --> 2:08:07.280 random server that's just like the exposed to the internet, right, 2:08:07.480 --> 2:08:09.800 so the messages weren't directly on that server, but like 2:08:09.880 --> 2:08:13.160 it's the server where they like for testing purposes, like 2:08:14.440 --> 2:08:16.920 I don't know how much I can understand really, but 2:08:17.040 --> 2:08:20.400 where they like test the software automatically. And and so 2:08:20.640 --> 2:08:24.080 there's all, and because of how they configured the server, 2:08:24.560 --> 2:08:26.960 I could just have access to all the source code, 2:08:27.000 --> 2:08:30.680 which included lots of passwords for example, for like the 2:08:30.800 --> 2:08:34.800 server that then had the car's messages on it. Okay, 2:08:35.000 --> 2:08:38.520 but yeah, or access credentials for APIs that would have 2:08:38.560 --> 2:08:43.600 followed me to update the crew and are which like, 2:08:43.800 --> 2:08:46.360 if you think about that's almost the bigger story that 2:08:46.600 --> 2:08:50.280 ye like at least theoretically could have been able to 2:08:50.400 --> 2:08:55.960 change crew cruise because like that's the real terrorism risk. Yeah, 2:08:56.240 --> 2:08:59.040 like if I'm just like if I'm just allowed to 2:08:59.160 --> 2:09:02.720 spell it out like that, like that, that's the dream 2:09:02.800 --> 2:09:06.520 of any Yeah. Yeah, like I mean, you know, you know, 2:09:06.680 --> 2:09:08.040 like I'm One of the things you were talking about 2:09:08.080 --> 2:09:10.240 when when you're writing about this was that like journalists 2:09:10.240 --> 2:09:11.960 thought that you were the one who had like caused 2:09:11.960 --> 2:09:13.520 all of the flight delays. It was like, no, that 2:09:13.640 --> 2:09:16.160 was just their computer breaking. No, But yeah, like that 2:09:16.320 --> 2:09:19.200 was just funny because I didn't even know the thing 2:09:19.320 --> 2:09:22.640 with yes, with the f a A happened. But I 2:09:22.800 --> 2:09:25.120 was like tweeting about, oh, I have a big aviation 2:09:25.240 --> 2:09:28.160 story any churnal that's interested it's like a security breach, 2:09:28.200 --> 2:09:29.720 and people were like, wait, what did you two to 2:09:29.800 --> 2:09:31.080 the f A A And it was like hot, what 2:09:31.400 --> 2:09:34.920 f A A. Oh so that happened, Like I am 2:09:35.000 --> 2:09:38.000 still not up to date in US anymore. Yeah, I 2:09:38.080 --> 2:09:40.000 mean so for people who don't know what that story is. 2:09:40.200 --> 2:09:44.840 So basically, the Federal Aviation Administration had a computer problem. 2:09:45.080 --> 2:09:47.000 It was very the very very short version data computer 2:09:47.080 --> 2:09:49.520 problem and this grounded like a ship ton of flights 2:09:50.160 --> 2:09:54.160 because the huge like computer bottlenecks where if you know, 2:09:54.240 --> 2:09:57.120 it was we saw this over like like like last 2:09:57.200 --> 2:09:59.080 month when there was that when all of those flights 2:09:59.160 --> 2:10:02.440 got down by uh Southwestern because the computer system just 2:10:02.480 --> 2:10:08.080 went down. It's it's the same thing except us y. Yeah, 2:10:08.200 --> 2:10:10.920 but it's it's just funny because yeah, I first found 2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:15.240 this server like exactly the day after Like that was 2:10:15.360 --> 2:10:17.760 literally a day after the f a A incident, So 2:10:18.000 --> 2:10:21.200 people were rightly assuming that that was me, which it 2:10:21.280 --> 2:10:24.880 obviously wasn't, but like it would have been cool. Yeah, 2:10:25.040 --> 2:10:27.760 But it's also like it is very disturbed to be 2:10:27.920 --> 2:10:29.240 like this kind of stuff is just sitting there and 2:10:29.280 --> 2:10:32.440 like someone yeah could just like theoretically going and screw 2:10:32.520 --> 2:10:34.920 with all of this stuff, which is like and then 2:10:35.000 --> 2:10:36.720 also the fact that like there was just all of 2:10:36.880 --> 2:10:39.480 like the personal information of all of the pilots on there, 2:10:39.560 --> 2:10:43.000 Like what the hell like that is? Yeah that yeah, 2:10:43.320 --> 2:10:47.640 it was terrifying. Yeah, it's it is crazy how much 2:10:47.680 --> 2:10:49.520 stuff is just out there, and like that's part of 2:10:49.600 --> 2:10:54.080 what I tried to show with my work. It's just, yeah, 2:10:54.120 --> 2:10:56.360 there's so much stuff out there and it's just waiting 2:10:56.440 --> 2:10:58.720 to be found. And I both mean that in terms 2:10:58.760 --> 2:11:01.560 of like, yeah, you can find ship if you try to, 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:04.440 but also in the sense of things are not secure, 2:11:04.640 --> 2:11:08.560 Like yeah, like all the systems are like entire life 2:11:08.680 --> 2:11:11.839 depend on nowadays, not none of those systems are really secure. 2:11:11.920 --> 2:11:16.600 They're entirely dependent on like one system administrator who doesn't 2:11:16.640 --> 2:11:20.800 get paid enough. Our entire like computer systems depend on 2:11:20.920 --> 2:11:24.880 like a bunch of furies being motivated enough to do 2:11:25.000 --> 2:11:28.000 their work. Uh So, basically, like the moral of the 2:11:28.120 --> 2:11:33.720 story is pay furies well. And yeah, yeah, and this 2:11:34.000 --> 2:11:36.080 is probably looking everything that I was thinking about when 2:11:36.120 --> 2:11:38.520 I was looking at this, which is like, you know, okay, 2:11:38.560 --> 2:11:41.080 so like when when when I was like a teenager, 2:11:41.160 --> 2:11:42.600 Like one one of the things I think I was 2:11:42.640 --> 2:11:44.520 the most wrong about that I believed was like I 2:11:44.680 --> 2:11:48.720 actually genuinely believed that like automating cars was a good 2:11:48.760 --> 2:11:51.240 idea because humans are really really bad at driving. And 2:11:51.280 --> 2:11:52.880 then and then, and then I had to learn the program, 2:11:52.960 --> 2:11:55.200 and I had to like see scientists code, and I 2:11:55.280 --> 2:11:58.760 had to I I I opened a program and there's 2:11:58.760 --> 2:12:00.480 a section of it that no one knows how it works. 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:02.480 And I look, I look at the notes, and the 2:12:02.560 --> 2:12:04.760 notes say, I don't I didn't write this. I don't 2:12:04.800 --> 2:12:06.760 know how it works. This is produced. This is produced 2:12:06.760 --> 2:12:09.800 at four am on like like seven billigrams of caffeine. 2:12:10.040 --> 2:12:14.440 And that's like, yeah, on at least caffeine, if not 2:12:14.560 --> 2:12:19.120 the Yeah, well these are these were astronomers, so I 2:12:19.320 --> 2:12:22.240 I think it was actually just a lot of caffeine 2:12:22.320 --> 2:12:25.400 and not means but yeah, like you know. And then 2:12:25.440 --> 2:12:28.160 I had the realization the only single thing that we 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:31.960 as humans are worse at than driving is coding exactly, yeah, 2:12:32.120 --> 2:12:33.840 we are. We are even worse at that. And then 2:12:34.000 --> 2:12:36.800 the other thing we're also very bad at is labeling data, 2:12:36.920 --> 2:12:39.720 which is like the whole thing machine learning is dependent, 2:12:40.160 --> 2:12:44.960 like because like the entire intelligence of like an automateive car, 2:12:45.280 --> 2:12:48.120 like a self driving car, is entirely dependent on how 2:12:48.200 --> 2:12:53.200 intelligent the like underpaid workers and Kenya are getting paid 2:12:53.280 --> 2:12:57.040 like two bucks an hour to label things as car, human, 2:12:57.200 --> 2:13:00.720 and child and then make moral this sessions of whether 2:13:00.880 --> 2:13:04.360 or not those should get run over. Um like yeah, 2:13:04.840 --> 2:13:06.240 like this is you know what one of one of 2:13:06.320 --> 2:13:08.080 my sort of political things that I'm coming to is 2:13:08.120 --> 2:13:11.320 I I think the only person people who should be 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:13.160 allowed to do machine learning are astronomers, and no one 2:13:13.160 --> 2:13:15.360 else should be allowed to do it. And even they 2:13:15.880 --> 2:13:17.000 know because they have to. They like they have a 2:13:17.080 --> 2:13:19.280 legitimate reason, which is that like they actually a they're 2:13:19.320 --> 2:13:21.240 doing a bunch of big dates, like most of astronomy 2:13:21.280 --> 2:13:24.680 is just big data analysis and then be like the 2:13:24.800 --> 2:13:28.360 the the analysis itself doesn't really hurt anyone. Uh, you 2:13:28.480 --> 2:13:30.960 you can argue about putting the telescopes, but like you're not, 2:13:31.160 --> 2:13:36.160 You're not, Like yeah, just like anything that involves humans 2:13:36.320 --> 2:13:40.920 probably yeah, also involves AI in anyone. Yeah that's terrible idea, 2:13:41.320 --> 2:13:43.400 but yeah, I guess, I guess. Okay, So circling back 2:13:43.440 --> 2:13:44.800 around to the point I was going to make and 2:13:44.840 --> 2:13:48.960 then forgot distracted talking about AI because such as the world. 2:13:49.320 --> 2:13:52.840 Um yeah, so you know, it's really remarkable to me, 2:13:52.960 --> 2:13:56.120 like how little technical skill you need to just like 2:13:56.400 --> 2:14:01.120 absolutely own enormous corporations and governments and you know. But 2:14:01.280 --> 2:14:03.200 but the other thing that that that struck me about this, 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:07.880 that I've been thinking about for a while is that, like, Okay, 2:14:08.000 --> 2:14:09.880 on the one hand, you have how easy hacking is, 2:14:10.080 --> 2:14:12.120 like like this server stuff is like easier than the 2:14:12.160 --> 2:14:13.680 stuff that I remember back in the day, which is 2:14:13.720 --> 2:14:19.280 a lot of like people like you, someone somewhere long 2:14:19.320 --> 2:14:21.560 ago in a galaxy far far away wrote like a 2:14:21.640 --> 2:14:23.440 script and then you just copy and paste it into 2:14:23.480 --> 2:14:25.600 like every single text box on a web page, and 2:14:25.760 --> 2:14:29.440 like that's I think, like that's probably maybe like more 2:14:29.560 --> 2:14:32.280 hackery quote unquote than just like looking through a list 2:14:32.360 --> 2:14:35.000 of servers. But like even that is like the level 2:14:35.040 --> 2:14:38.280 of technical sophistication is so low or or you know, 2:14:38.800 --> 2:14:42.000 you don't need technically it's just needs to be stupid 2:14:42.120 --> 2:14:44.520 enough to pull it up. Like yeah, but but you know, 2:14:44.600 --> 2:14:46.560 but the thing that I realized about this and I 2:14:46.640 --> 2:14:48.280 was thinking about this was like, on the one hand, 2:14:48.440 --> 2:14:50.600 the level technical sophistication for this is extreme below. On 2:14:50.640 --> 2:14:52.920 the other hand, one of the sort of like like 2:14:53.040 --> 2:14:55.240 one of one of the sort of trends of the 2:14:55.600 --> 2:14:59.280 way capitalism has been distributing digital technology, which is sort 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:01.320 of by apping it, like by by which has been 2:15:01.720 --> 2:15:04.680 packing it into apps and these closed guarding ecosystems and 2:15:04.880 --> 2:15:08.720 like putting uys in between you and like what like 2:15:09.160 --> 2:15:12.160 you and what's actually happening in your computer has been 2:15:12.200 --> 2:15:14.360 you know, it's it's been designing a way to make 2:15:14.360 --> 2:15:18.160 a quote unquote consumer friendly, but also it's been designed 2:15:18.240 --> 2:15:21.040 away such like successive generations of computer users just have 2:15:21.160 --> 2:15:25.280 less and less knowledge of how their devices technology actually work. Yeah, 2:15:25.320 --> 2:15:28.440 that's like like there's that whole thing of like about 2:15:28.520 --> 2:15:33.240 how how like younger kids just don't understand the concept 2:15:33.280 --> 2:15:36.920 of faults anymore because like that's completely abstracted away on 2:15:37.040 --> 2:15:41.080 like smartphones. Yea chromebook in particularly, which I I genuinely 2:15:41.120 --> 2:15:43.760 think we need to ban chromebooks and schools like just 2:15:43.920 --> 2:15:48.440 just like for for for the sake of human Yeah, 2:15:48.560 --> 2:15:52.680 it's awful, Like, oh god, they're the worst. Yeah, I 2:15:52.760 --> 2:15:54.360 don't know, Like at the end of today, That's what 2:15:54.440 --> 2:15:56.440 I wanted to say earlier about like how easy it 2:15:56.560 --> 2:15:58.840 is to hack all the paper operations and stuff. And 2:15:58.960 --> 2:16:00.840 it's just like the answers are asked to why it's 2:16:00.920 --> 2:16:05.440 just capitalism, It's it's cheaper not to deficit about cybersecurity. 2:16:06.880 --> 2:16:09.720 It's cheaper to just pay when you get hacked than 2:16:09.800 --> 2:16:13.160 to like secure your ship upfront, because like the only 2:16:13.240 --> 2:16:15.880 people that will really suffer is like your customers and 2:16:16.000 --> 2:16:19.480 your empathies, and they can forget your your shareholders, they're 2:16:19.520 --> 2:16:22.560 gonna be just fine, you know. And you look at 2:16:22.560 --> 2:16:24.520 the way the regulatory structure works is like, okay, so 2:16:24.600 --> 2:16:26.240 what what what happens if you get in trouble of 2:16:26.280 --> 2:16:30.160 something like this? Will the government takes a cut? That's it? Yeah, Yeah, 2:16:30.280 --> 2:16:33.760 that's that's it. Like it's literally, it's it's literally like 2:16:34.040 --> 2:16:37.760 you can budget getting there. There is cyber insurance now 2:16:37.920 --> 2:16:41.680 you can get insured against getting hacked. Like like it's 2:16:41.760 --> 2:16:45.080 it's just capitalism out of work. And I feel like 2:16:45.160 --> 2:16:46.360 one of the things that one of the things that 2:16:46.440 --> 2:16:49.560 journalists have sort of I don't know and I understand 2:16:49.640 --> 2:16:51.440 why they focus on it, but I feel like there's 2:16:51.440 --> 2:16:54.160 a lot of focus in in sort of like intech 2:16:54.240 --> 2:16:56.880 journalism and journalism on sort of hacking stuff in like 2:16:57.000 --> 2:17:00.760 the really big sophisticated like stut necks or what was 2:17:00.840 --> 2:17:04.240 the what was the more recent one I can remember, Like, yeah, 2:17:04.240 --> 2:17:06.480 like the were the really sort of convoluted trawling program 2:17:06.520 --> 2:17:08.240 and things that like you know, take nation state level 2:17:08.280 --> 2:17:10.440 of resources and it's like, well, yeah, you know this. 2:17:10.600 --> 2:17:12.000 This was always the thing with like the with like 2:17:12.160 --> 2:17:13.800 the n s A, to where it's like, well, okay, 2:17:14.200 --> 2:17:15.840 so the the the the the the the. On the 2:17:15.959 --> 2:17:17.320 on the one hand, the n s A does have 2:17:17.520 --> 2:17:21.520 enough money to like spend like fifty million dollars factoring 2:17:21.600 --> 2:17:23.520 one numbers like a break a bunch of encryption. On 2:17:23.560 --> 2:17:27.199 the other hand, like they can't just force us companies 2:17:27.879 --> 2:17:31.480 and and also give them access. And also like I 2:17:31.520 --> 2:17:32.880 don't know they can they can get most of this 2:17:32.959 --> 2:17:35.560 information because like some server admin in like a farm 2:17:36.120 --> 2:17:39.199 in like the middle of world, Nebraska, like misconfigured a file, 2:17:39.480 --> 2:17:43.720 like misconfigured a server. So like, you know, I don't know. 2:17:43.840 --> 2:17:46.080 That's so that's what I find funny about the things 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:49.480 I find because I like almost exclusively go for like 2:17:49.640 --> 2:17:52.480 the low hanging fruit, because like, why why would I 2:17:52.720 --> 2:17:55.160 invest more effort when I can get the really big 2:17:55.200 --> 2:17:58.640 scoops like this. And also sometimes sometimes I do kind 2:17:58.680 --> 2:18:01.720 of think about how, hey, you know, like maybe I 2:18:01.840 --> 2:18:04.440 just cut off access to the CIA. Maybe this was 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:07.160 like how the CIA got this access. Maybe maybe the 2:18:07.280 --> 2:18:10.880 n s A was here obviously most likely not in 2:18:11.000 --> 2:18:13.360 most cases, but it's just a funny little thought of 2:18:13.600 --> 2:18:17.280 like who did I just kind of access by reporting this? 2:18:17.840 --> 2:18:20.200 I will say this, like I can't imagine that there 2:18:20.320 --> 2:18:21.920 isn't someone at the n s A and there isn't 2:18:21.920 --> 2:18:23.760 someone at the CIA whose job it is to do 2:18:23.840 --> 2:18:26.240 exactly the same thing you do and like scrolling server 2:18:26.400 --> 2:18:29.720 list every day, like absolutely like like like that. That's 2:18:29.760 --> 2:18:32.560 why by now I you sue my like for the surgeon, 2:18:32.600 --> 2:18:35.120 since there's Showdown, which is like the famous U S one, 2:18:35.160 --> 2:18:36.960 which is why I still always say I found it 2:18:37.000 --> 2:18:39.760 on show them, even though by now I use because 2:18:39.800 --> 2:18:42.240 Showdown has like half of like all U S I 2:18:42.400 --> 2:18:45.720 P centered and they have an artificial delay between finding 2:18:45.800 --> 2:18:49.440 the servers and showing them to you and have really 2:18:49.520 --> 2:18:52.039 bad search. And I'm pretty sure it's just because at 2:18:52.080 --> 2:18:54.560 one point the US government got upset because they kept 2:18:54.560 --> 2:18:59.120 getting yeah uh and so yeah, but like the Chinese 2:18:59.160 --> 2:19:02.840 are very a link to give me all the that's 2:19:03.080 --> 2:19:05.200 that they too centsor a lot of Chinese I P 2:19:05.360 --> 2:19:07.240 s though, but I think a lot of that was 2:19:07.440 --> 2:19:09.280 so I was I was trying to figure out why 2:19:09.360 --> 2:19:11.560 that name was relation. But then I had this, I 2:19:11.640 --> 2:19:14.640 remembered that there was a story where some researcher did 2:19:14.720 --> 2:19:16.280 like almost the exact same thing you did to a 2:19:16.360 --> 2:19:19.200 Chinese security company and found out that they were doing 2:19:19.920 --> 2:19:22.000 I guess what, exactly the same ship the U. S. 2:19:22.040 --> 2:19:24.240 Government was doing, which was using using a bunch of 2:19:24.360 --> 2:19:26.360 valance cameras to spy on Muslims. And it was like, well, 2:19:27.160 --> 2:19:29.920 this is great. Yeah, it's it's always like like it's 2:19:29.959 --> 2:19:33.560 always appointing and doing the same thing behind the scenes, 2:19:33.760 --> 2:19:38.520 like yeah, okay, so we unfortunately going to have to 2:19:38.520 --> 2:19:42.600 take an ad break. I yeah, but then once we 2:19:42.680 --> 2:19:45.680 returned from capitalism, we will go back to opposing capitalism. 2:19:46.600 --> 2:19:51.440 Welcome to all right, and we're back. Yeah, so speaking 2:19:51.440 --> 2:19:53.920 of any capitalism that that was another thing I wanted 2:19:53.959 --> 2:19:55.960 to sort of talk about, which is said, okay, so 2:19:56.080 --> 2:19:59.360 like long long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away, 2:19:59.440 --> 2:20:02.320 little little little baby, fifteen year old Mia was radicalized, 2:20:02.480 --> 2:20:05.560 like back back, back back when I was overthrowing trying 2:20:05.560 --> 2:20:09.039 to overthrow my first government. It was um, a lot 2:20:09.160 --> 2:20:11.240 a lot of it was being in the same spheres, 2:20:11.240 --> 2:20:12.920 a lot of sort of anaitist hackers that were in 2:20:12.959 --> 2:20:15.640 the sort of like loose anonymous sphere. But you know, 2:20:15.800 --> 2:20:18.280 by by like sixteen, like that stuff was kind of 2:20:18.280 --> 2:20:21.360 falling apart, like partially because of in fighting, partially because 2:20:21.400 --> 2:20:26.160 of FED infiltration, partially because you know, like everyone arrested. Yeah, yeah, 2:20:26.680 --> 2:20:29.520 all the big players have been arrested like three years 2:20:29.600 --> 2:20:31.600 p yeah, and and you know, and the other thing 2:20:31.640 --> 2:20:34.600 that was going on too, I think was like Anonymous, 2:20:35.480 --> 2:20:39.200 like it's politics were always really incoherent. Like you you've 2:20:39.240 --> 2:20:42.080 had I don't know, you're just like everywhere. Like the 2:20:42.160 --> 2:20:44.160 thing I remember was there was a big split between 2:20:44.280 --> 2:20:48.520 like basically the fascist and the anarchists between like like 2:20:48.640 --> 2:20:51.880 over Trump specifically, Like yeah, I think the thing with 2:20:52.000 --> 2:20:54.520 Anonymous is just like the way it started to just started. 2:20:54.640 --> 2:20:57.640 That's just like a group of trap was like, well 2:20:57.760 --> 2:20:59.600 okay that bic just to say, like, I mean, it 2:20:59.720 --> 2:21:03.640 makes instead. Anonymous is the way it is and has 2:21:03.720 --> 2:21:06.240 been the way it has been. I think it's still 2:21:06.280 --> 2:21:10.040 like important that it exists and that it motivates people. Uh, 2:21:10.320 --> 2:21:14.040 Like I have been involved with Anonymous before. There's the 2:21:14.120 --> 2:21:16.520 one thing I can talk about with like Operation mean 2:21:16.640 --> 2:21:20.480 Mar where we did like support things. Um that was 2:21:20.560 --> 2:21:25.480 shortly before my indictment. But yeah, it's it's interesting like 2:21:26.000 --> 2:21:30.440 Anonymous brings people together to do operations and that's what 2:21:30.600 --> 2:21:34.640 they do, and they can do pr for stuff. Uh yeah, 2:21:34.680 --> 2:21:37.440 I don't want to like to talk down on them, 2:21:37.600 --> 2:21:40.240 Yeah no, but I think, like I think, especially especially 2:21:40.400 --> 2:21:42.440 like in life, when I was got involved with Chilse' thirteen, 2:21:42.480 --> 2:21:46.039 it was like like it was it was a lot different, 2:21:46.120 --> 2:21:50.160 like it was you know, like a yeah, it was. 2:21:50.240 --> 2:21:52.080 It was. It was like a thing. And also it 2:21:52.240 --> 2:21:55.120 wasn't just like like it wasn't just that it was 2:21:55.160 --> 2:21:59.280 sort of like Okay, we're like we're like trolling, trolling 2:21:59.320 --> 2:22:01.760 a government by taking down their web pages or whatever, 2:22:01.879 --> 2:22:03.680 like they were actually sort of there was like there 2:22:03.760 --> 2:22:06.679 was real coordination between like people like you know, revolutionaries 2:22:06.720 --> 2:22:10.120 on the ground in like Egypt, Uran, Brazil and not 2:22:10.280 --> 2:22:12.840 like that does still happen, Yeah, that does still happen, 2:22:12.959 --> 2:22:14.920 it's just less of a public thing. Like that's what 2:22:15.080 --> 2:22:18.119 we did in in as well as where we did 2:22:18.200 --> 2:22:20.640 communications with people on the ground where we helped them 2:22:20.760 --> 2:22:23.400 communicate among each other, where we helped them keep the 2:22:23.440 --> 2:22:26.640 Internet got up even when the government tried to turn 2:22:26.720 --> 2:22:30.440 it off, other fund other other fun shenanigans like that, 2:22:31.160 --> 2:22:33.760 and also archival and that like just in case some 2:22:34.040 --> 2:22:36.720 kids that does decide to eat us literally every web 2:22:36.760 --> 2:22:41.400 page in the country, which is mostly nonsensical, but like, yeah, 2:22:42.920 --> 2:22:46.000 but I do find it interesting how like yeah, there's 2:22:46.080 --> 2:22:49.800 like the twenty twelve twenty generation that was mostly anonymous 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:52.520 tone terminated and now we're in like this new generation 2:22:52.600 --> 2:22:55.199 where it's just small little groups. Yeah, and I wanted 2:22:55.200 --> 2:22:57.960 to talk about that because it's much more decentralized. I 2:22:58.040 --> 2:23:01.440 don't know, it's weird to talk about it because at 2:23:01.440 --> 2:23:03.560 the end of the day, I inspired a lot of it, 2:23:03.760 --> 2:23:06.440 which is really weird to say. It's so weird to 2:23:06.560 --> 2:23:09.560 say that. I like, but yeah, I'm kind of part 2:23:09.600 --> 2:23:14.240 of what revived activism and it sounds so so pretentious 2:23:14.280 --> 2:23:17.680 of me to just say that myself, but like, yeah, no, 2:23:18.000 --> 2:23:23.000 it is kind of what happened, and like yeah, and 2:23:23.080 --> 2:23:24.320 like that that was what was interesting to be too, 2:23:24.360 --> 2:23:28.840 because it was it was very like I don't know, 2:23:29.000 --> 2:23:31.000 like the the US and twelve stuff was also like 2:23:31.080 --> 2:23:35.120 it was very very I guess media centered in a 2:23:35.200 --> 2:23:37.680 way where it was it was about drawing, like drawing 2:23:37.760 --> 2:23:40.560 masses of people into things and then using it to 2:23:40.600 --> 2:23:42.480 sort of get media attention, using it to sort of like, 2:23:43.200 --> 2:23:45.279 I don't know, be be this sort of like online 2:23:45.280 --> 2:23:47.280 like also this sort of like online social movements in 2:23:47.320 --> 2:23:50.480 a way that I think it's very different than the 2:23:50.640 --> 2:23:52.480 modern stuff. So this is my conception of it, though, 2:23:52.520 --> 2:23:55.280 because I've also been kind of like, I don't know, 2:23:55.320 --> 2:23:58.560 I was off doing other stuff in twenty nineteen that 2:23:58.760 --> 2:24:02.800 had nothing to do with this. So yeah, I'm I'm curious. Well, okay, 2:24:05.160 --> 2:24:09.280 so I'm curious a like, how how you see the 2:24:09.360 --> 2:24:13.080 politics of these new groups either sort of as different 2:24:13.120 --> 2:24:17.280 from what came before it. I think it's hard for 2:24:17.360 --> 2:24:19.480 a lot of the groups, it's hard to like see 2:24:19.640 --> 2:24:21.920 what their politics are, and some of them aren't even 2:24:22.240 --> 2:24:26.400 Like there's things like Lapses that aren't specifically doing activism, 2:24:26.520 --> 2:24:31.199 but they're accidentally doing anti corporate activism by just making 2:24:31.320 --> 2:24:35.720 everything like uh, that's like groups that are like in 2:24:35.840 --> 2:24:38.600 the way that they operate are very clear and inspired 2:24:38.640 --> 2:24:41.000 by my work that I used to do um and 2:24:41.120 --> 2:24:44.840 they're just not very like political per se. They but 2:24:45.000 --> 2:24:47.760 but I still call them activists because even if it 2:24:47.920 --> 2:24:51.360 might not be their intention, they're doing activism, and they're 2:24:51.400 --> 2:24:55.560 making corporations angry and wasting corporate resources, and in my book, 2:24:55.640 --> 2:24:59.000 that counts as like activism and the fact that they 2:24:59.200 --> 2:25:02.080 in a way fi for like freedom of information, even 2:25:02.160 --> 2:25:05.920 if they might not be the goal. Yeah, I don't know, 2:25:06.000 --> 2:25:08.840 I feel like that is the main unifying factor. Now 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:12.360 it's just a fight for information because like they're currently 2:25:12.480 --> 2:25:17.000 like the single biggest active activist thing happening right now 2:25:17.160 --> 2:25:21.520 since like twenty nineteen is just leaking the whole linkedivism 2:25:21.600 --> 2:25:24.520 thing that happened before as well, but like now that's 2:25:24.560 --> 2:25:26.880 like the main thing. Before it was often a lot 2:25:27.000 --> 2:25:29.760 like just dedosing and stuff, but now we're so focused 2:25:29.800 --> 2:25:35.400 and like getting documents, getting software, getting files, getting like 2:25:35.720 --> 2:25:39.920 proof that things happened, getting fucking no fly list. It's 2:25:39.959 --> 2:25:44.320 just it's just a very different environment, where like the 2:25:44.440 --> 2:25:47.440 goals are probably about the same in a lot of ways, 2:25:47.920 --> 2:25:50.439 at least for the people who do have an ideology. 2:25:51.320 --> 2:25:54.280 But but like, yeah, I feel like it's just much 2:25:54.360 --> 2:25:58.480 more focused on like releasing information into the free, which 2:25:58.520 --> 2:26:00.920 I find really great. Like that that is kind of 2:26:01.240 --> 2:26:06.400 my big fight that I tried to devote myself to. Yeah, 2:26:06.600 --> 2:26:08.440 I wanted to ask also sort of just about your 2:26:08.440 --> 2:26:11.440 personal anarchism, because I don't know, I like talking about 2:26:11.440 --> 2:26:17.640 anarchism and yeah, everyone has their own. Um, I don't know, 2:26:18.720 --> 2:26:20.920 it's it's it's a difficult question, and I feel my 2:26:21.000 --> 2:26:24.480 answer to this question changes like every other thing. Um. 2:26:25.120 --> 2:26:27.200 I especially find it hard because like I am like 2:26:27.400 --> 2:26:32.320 doing work in very specific focus bits of like anarchists work, 2:26:32.480 --> 2:26:34.920 and so I don't really want to lock myself into 2:26:35.160 --> 2:26:38.080 like I'm sorry, So so it's it's like very fluid. 2:26:38.160 --> 2:26:42.120 I'm just like obviously against states. I am like, I 2:26:42.200 --> 2:26:47.560 don't know, it's it's hard. No no governments, no shitty 2:26:47.640 --> 2:26:50.720 co operations, and it's just like having fun with friends 2:26:50.800 --> 2:26:53.720 and being gay. That is like the rules we take 2:26:53.800 --> 2:26:58.440 this is this is a good form of chasm. Yeah, 2:26:58.560 --> 2:27:03.360 I don't know, it's just some form of queer anarchism. Yeah, 2:27:03.920 --> 2:27:06.080 being gay doing crimes, it's a it's a good it's 2:27:06.120 --> 2:27:09.440 a good thing. I guess in a way, like what 2:27:09.600 --> 2:27:12.080 kind of defines me and what keeps getting me into 2:27:12.120 --> 2:27:14.000 the spotlight is that I do just kind of have 2:27:14.160 --> 2:27:17.440 like a very strong moral compass and I go by 2:27:17.560 --> 2:27:21.000 that rather by what's legal or not legal or like 2:27:21.240 --> 2:27:23.879 sure I try to stay with him like some safe boundaries, 2:27:24.000 --> 2:27:29.120 especially now like post indictment, um, given that they're definitely 2:27:29.160 --> 2:27:32.040 even more eyes on me now than than before and 2:27:32.200 --> 2:27:35.880 this podcast is definitely being played at some NBR. Yeah, 2:27:35.920 --> 2:27:43.960 there's there's there's ah, so that's something to consider, but like, yeah, 2:27:44.080 --> 2:27:46.160 I feel like I feel like that's kind of what 2:27:46.280 --> 2:27:49.680 I want to demonstrate this that like if you have morals, 2:27:50.040 --> 2:27:52.440 you can't just stick by them, like no one is 2:27:52.560 --> 2:27:55.800 stopping you from doing that. They might try to, but 2:27:56.040 --> 2:27:59.240 like you can just stick with your morals. Yeah, and 2:27:59.720 --> 2:28:02.720 I I think it's worth mentioning even like you know, okay, 2:28:02.760 --> 2:28:04.879 like a lot of people go to prison for doing 2:28:04.920 --> 2:28:07.959 stuff like this, some of them didn't like there there 2:28:08.040 --> 2:28:10.000 there's like, to the best of my knowledge, there is 2:28:10.000 --> 2:28:12.120 at least still one low set guy who's just in 2:28:12.200 --> 2:28:15.119 the wind who they never got and like and low 2:28:15.200 --> 2:28:18.400 sec like they they had a FED mole in the 2:28:18.560 --> 2:28:24.200 group and one of these people still got away fox. Yeah. Yeah, 2:28:24.240 --> 2:28:30.320 just so really don't do Savo's basically the guy that 2:28:30.440 --> 2:28:34.080 the Fed's flipped inside of lo Sek who got everyonce 2:28:34.120 --> 2:28:37.560 at the prison. Um. Like, like I do have to 2:28:37.640 --> 2:28:40.040 say I kind of get why he flipped like he 2:28:40.160 --> 2:28:42.720 at that point already had a family and stuff. But like, 2:28:42.840 --> 2:28:47.520 I get that that is hard, but still, yeah, your friends, Yeah, 2:28:47.640 --> 2:28:51.400 so you simply do not like like, I don't know, 2:28:51.800 --> 2:28:54.320 and the fact that he still like has some sort 2:28:54.360 --> 2:28:59.120 of image. Honestly, I don't know that it's just in commune. 2:28:59.600 --> 2:29:05.320 It's uh, I don't know. It's it's interesting for sure, 2:29:06.080 --> 2:29:09.080 but yeah, I can't come in too much a lot 2:29:09.160 --> 2:29:11.080 of fun. There are a lot of funny chokes to 2:29:11.160 --> 2:29:16.440 be made that I shouldn't. Yeah, the Feds suck. I'm 2:29:16.440 --> 2:29:19.760 just gonna say that, like, oh god, it's it's been. 2:29:19.840 --> 2:29:21.920 It's it's it's been. It's been a bad week of 2:29:22.080 --> 2:29:27.520 Feds in the US too. Like yeah, honestly, just one 2:29:27.600 --> 2:29:30.840 thing again. But I am so curious what's going to 2:29:30.920 --> 2:29:33.160 happen with the Congression link. Yeah, I don't know if 2:29:33.200 --> 2:29:37.960 you saw that, like, especially since like this means that 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:40.360 the Republicans are going to be exposed to my block 2:29:40.440 --> 2:29:45.960 post presumably. Ah, And I am so excited for all 2:29:46.000 --> 2:29:49.400 these larks they can come up with. It is going 2:29:49.440 --> 2:29:51.880 to be extremely funny. But I'm also very excited for 2:29:52.040 --> 2:29:54.840 like the Turfs to be like this is terrorism, see 2:29:55.600 --> 2:29:59.440 right along. Yeah, yeah, I have gotten that before. I 2:29:59.520 --> 2:30:03.160 have gotten terffre applies before on like articles about me 2:30:03.320 --> 2:30:06.240 where they were like, see, no, women don't commit cry. 2:30:06.520 --> 2:30:09.040 So this is clear proof that it's just like what 2:30:09.200 --> 2:30:13.080 what are you talking about? This is this is my 2:30:13.320 --> 2:30:18.560 male cheenes coming out. I always also like, man, like 2:30:18.720 --> 2:30:20.240 do do you do? You do? You do? You know 2:30:20.520 --> 2:30:23.120 what people? What people did? So you have the right 2:30:23.200 --> 2:30:27.800 to vote, Like come on that, Like That's the funny 2:30:27.879 --> 2:30:30.440 thing is that they at the same time also like 2:30:30.600 --> 2:30:33.680 fetishizes the whole suffragette thing. Yeah, I think, no fucking 2:30:33.760 --> 2:30:36.120 clue what that movement? Yeah, it's like no, no, no 2:30:36.280 --> 2:30:41.680 suffragette what what whatever? Horsewhip, Richie suonac, no turf whatever, 2:30:43.000 --> 2:30:48.520 unlike unlike the suffragettes, who Yeah, exactly, I don't know, 2:30:48.760 --> 2:30:51.840 it's it's silly. I'm surprised how little harassment I've gotten 2:30:51.879 --> 2:30:54.800 on Twitter so far if we exclude the whole by 2:30:54.920 --> 2:31:00.280 lesbian this. Yeah, I'm so sorry for re start that this. 2:31:00.840 --> 2:31:04.160 I think me talking about that single handedly restarted that this. 2:31:05.800 --> 2:31:09.680 It just happened. It just happens periodically, Like yeah, yeah, 2:31:09.920 --> 2:31:12.400 it's just funny because like I was just like, yeah, 2:31:12.480 --> 2:31:14.760 this is gonna get me some hatred place. But like 2:31:15.120 --> 2:31:18.680 within five minutes, I had twenty one private quote Yeah, 2:31:18.720 --> 2:31:20.920 I mean like my, my my. I won't wake an 2:31:20.959 --> 2:31:22.800 official statement on that, which is that if you give 2:31:22.840 --> 2:31:26.040 a single ship about people calling themselves by lesbians, like, 2:31:26.959 --> 2:31:29.520 please let me know so I can trade lives with you. 2:31:30.200 --> 2:31:33.439 Like you you seem to have like very few problems 2:31:33.520 --> 2:31:36.680 going on. I would love to like have grown up 2:31:36.720 --> 2:31:38.960 in the world where like that's like that's the thing 2:31:39.040 --> 2:31:42.720 that you think, Like, I don't know. I think it's 2:31:42.879 --> 2:31:45.400 I think it's funny how there's people who were like 2:31:45.800 --> 2:31:48.360 one thing to follow me wanting to interact with me 2:31:49.040 --> 2:31:53.840 as like and it's it's uh fury and kitten who 2:31:54.080 --> 2:31:57.680 like does uh funny things to the U. S. Government, 2:31:57.760 --> 2:32:01.720 but then they draw the line at a specific sexuality. Yeah, 2:32:01.760 --> 2:32:04.920 it's really like I I then made like a post 2:32:04.959 --> 2:32:07.200 where I was like sorry, I deleted that I didn't. 2:32:07.280 --> 2:32:09.360 I don't have the energy to deal with people getting 2:32:09.400 --> 2:32:12.119 so upset over an innocent word, and that has gotten 2:32:12.200 --> 2:32:14.880 so many many quote weeks being like yeah, and an 2:32:14.959 --> 2:32:17.240 innocent word in question was by lesbian. I say if 2:32:17.280 --> 2:32:19.480 I said, like the N word or something like that 2:32:19.680 --> 2:32:22.160 was literally the kind of response I got. And it's 2:32:22.200 --> 2:32:24.960 just like do you not have anything else to do? 2:32:25.320 --> 2:32:29.959 Like like do you know how many people the cops 2:32:30.040 --> 2:32:32.760 killed last week? Can you please do something like come 2:32:32.840 --> 2:32:36.119 on and all the things are happening here right now, 2:32:36.440 --> 2:32:40.200 Like especially then when some of the people that come 2:32:40.280 --> 2:32:43.120 up with that are like non binary lesbians, which if 2:32:43.160 --> 2:32:46.400 you know anything about this purity and discourse, like half 2:32:46.480 --> 2:32:48.960 of the them would also like from the sounder the 2:32:49.080 --> 2:32:52.600 pit because non binary lesbians also can't exist, and like 2:32:53.120 --> 2:32:56.440 it's why are you why? Why are you fighting for 2:32:56.600 --> 2:32:59.920 the turf? Like that? That is my one single question 2:33:00.040 --> 2:33:03.000 that I have through all the fourteen year old careers 2:33:03.040 --> 2:33:05.680 on Twitter dot com. Also, why did that Why did 2:33:05.760 --> 2:33:10.400 that discourse ever escaped Tumbler? Like that was because all 2:33:10.400 --> 2:33:14.000 the Tumbler because all the Tumbler refugees came to Twitter. Yeah, 2:33:14.240 --> 2:33:18.600 but they could have left a discourse there. Yeah, but no, 2:33:18.800 --> 2:33:22.000 the world I don't know Twitter, Twitter, Twitter in the 2:33:22.120 --> 2:33:25.600 last like like okay, like twitter'sdress course has never been good, 2:33:26.120 --> 2:33:29.040 but like in the last obviously it's just been getting 2:33:29.600 --> 2:33:33.560 worse and it's it's yeah, it's just the same side, 2:33:33.600 --> 2:33:36.000 like it's it's not even that it's just bad discourse. 2:33:36.160 --> 2:33:39.200 It's just the same discourse every week, and I'm just 2:33:39.400 --> 2:33:41.640 tired of it. And I guess now that I'm a 2:33:41.680 --> 2:33:44.359 big account, I have to have an opinion on everything. 2:33:44.959 --> 2:33:50.480 Um And also the fun part about being trans ever, 2:33:50.600 --> 2:33:55.480 everyone is like like absolutely razor focused for like the 2:33:55.640 --> 2:33:58.280 exact one word that you say wrong so they can act, 2:33:58.440 --> 2:34:01.280 so they can like like legitimately uoteunquote beechan trobic at you. 2:34:01.360 --> 2:34:02.840 And it's like this is great, Like this is a 2:34:02.879 --> 2:34:06.080 great system that we've developed for existing with each other. 2:34:06.560 --> 2:34:10.480 We could simply do this, Yeah, you can just say 2:34:10.840 --> 2:34:13.200 like that. The fact that literally, like I was like, 2:34:13.320 --> 2:34:15.960 I'm gonna see what happens if I say by lesbian 2:34:16.000 --> 2:34:19.680 and then I can't wait twenty four followers, and and 2:34:19.840 --> 2:34:22.440 the fact that it literally took seconds for people to 2:34:22.640 --> 2:34:25.440 tell me to tell all their mutuals to unfollow me 2:34:25.520 --> 2:34:29.960 because I'm highly problematic. Um was it was quite interesting 2:34:30.040 --> 2:34:32.760 and someone was just like this has completely shattered my 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:35.280 world view, and I'm just like sorry, if your world 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:38.560 view gets shattered by my sexuality, you have some soul 2:34:38.640 --> 2:34:42.840 seeking to do, like yeah, like like like like like 2:34:43.080 --> 2:34:49.760 like actually, like like I grew, I grew like like 2:34:50.120 --> 2:34:52.920 for some of them. For some people, me saying the 2:34:53.040 --> 2:34:57.600 phrase by lesbian was genuinely like my milkshake doc moment. Yeah, 2:34:57.600 --> 2:35:01.080 it was like it was like a second it's called 2:35:01.400 --> 2:35:07.440 a second sexuality description as hit the towers, like it was, yeah, 2:35:07.760 --> 2:35:11.000 that's so like god, it was like five am when 2:35:11.000 --> 2:35:12.680 I made that tweet. It was just like, oh, I'm 2:35:12.720 --> 2:35:15.400 going to get a little silly with it. And I 2:35:16.160 --> 2:35:19.160 expected like a backlash, but not that much. It was 2:35:19.240 --> 2:35:22.800 just too much. And yeah, like I know, it's not 2:35:23.080 --> 2:35:25.640 like backlash that matters and I should just ignore it, 2:35:25.760 --> 2:35:30.000 but it's like so overwhelming. Yeah, I guess do you 2:35:30.000 --> 2:35:31.320 do you have anything else that you want to say? 2:35:31.920 --> 2:35:34.960 I don't know. I think that's that covers like most 2:35:35.080 --> 2:35:40.280 of the things I have to talk about. H Yeah, 2:35:40.440 --> 2:35:44.200 just like be gay to crime, Hacked the Planet, Oh 2:35:44.280 --> 2:35:47.800 my god, it was genuinely it is one of my 2:35:47.879 --> 2:35:50.959 favorite things in the world that they made the movie Hackers, 2:35:51.120 --> 2:35:54.400 and it was the worst depicture. But then also like 2:35:54.920 --> 2:35:58.680 like I was like, so I did watch them. I mean, okay, 2:35:58.720 --> 2:36:01.280 I watched it, like not to the first time, Like 2:36:01.360 --> 2:36:03.880 it wasn't like like like I was. I was like 2:36:03.959 --> 2:36:05.720 not that or when I watched it, but it was 2:36:05.840 --> 2:36:09.000 after I like first ran into Hackers, So it took 2:36:09.040 --> 2:36:11.640 me a while to figure out that, like, wait, hold on, 2:36:11.800 --> 2:36:14.119 no hack the planet is the thing that everyone says, 2:36:14.360 --> 2:36:17.600 but that's actually because it's a joke for hackers, which 2:36:17.720 --> 2:36:21.320 I see. I still find it funny how Hackers is 2:36:21.400 --> 2:36:24.800 a movie that got hacking culture completely wrong and changed 2:36:24.879 --> 2:36:28.840 it forever, because like because like there's I don't know 2:36:28.879 --> 2:36:31.560 if you've ever seen that, but from like Defcon from 2:36:33.040 --> 2:36:36.240 there's a page on the official Deacon website talking about 2:36:36.280 --> 2:36:38.720 how bad Hackers is and how it gets everything wrong 2:36:38.800 --> 2:36:41.000 and no one should watch this movie. And now you 2:36:41.120 --> 2:36:43.840 look at this like twenty years later, and that's just 2:36:44.080 --> 2:36:48.400 what hacking culture turned in. Yeah, the most incredible thing 2:36:48.480 --> 2:36:52.240 about Hackers is that someone managed to get the queerest 2:36:52.360 --> 2:36:56.880 fucking movie ever made made by one of the biggest 2:36:56.920 --> 2:37:00.200 companies in Hollywood, and also make it about hacking, and 2:37:00.640 --> 2:37:03.920 like it's it's the best piece of cinema ever. And 2:37:04.040 --> 2:37:06.440 I stand by this, like it fucking sucks in a 2:37:06.520 --> 2:37:10.000 lot of ways, but it's just they just managed to 2:37:10.080 --> 2:37:15.600 make a movie where no one has says somehow like 2:37:16.120 --> 2:37:20.000 so no one says it's pretty amazing. I will say 2:37:20.120 --> 2:37:25.680 the two Asian characters are kind of whack, but yeah, 2:37:25.920 --> 2:37:28.200 other than that, it's like, yeah, it's a it's a 2:37:28.800 --> 2:37:31.880 like like it's it's a whack movie. Like like if 2:37:31.959 --> 2:37:34.560 you look at it objectively, it's a pretty bad movie. 2:37:34.959 --> 2:37:36.680 Like like there's you know, there was just like a 2:37:36.959 --> 2:37:39.000 lot of way stuff in the nineties is absolutely terrible, 2:37:39.040 --> 2:37:41.240 but also like there was stuff you could just do 2:37:41.400 --> 2:37:43.840 in movies in the nineties that like you can't now, 2:37:44.560 --> 2:37:47.080 like like okay, well, like what my example this is. 2:37:47.200 --> 2:37:48.520 I may have said this on the podcast before, but 2:37:48.600 --> 2:37:52.520 like they so they they did a like completely straight 2:37:53.280 --> 2:37:58.480 like modern day live adaptation of Romeo and Juliet that 2:37:58.680 --> 2:38:01.240 is like it's Romeo and Juliet. It's it's exactly the 2:38:01.400 --> 2:38:05.120 lines in Shakespeare, but it's like with characters set in 2:38:05.320 --> 2:38:08.600 like the like modern times, and they're shooting guns each other. 2:38:08.920 --> 2:38:10.960 But like one of these happens now is there's just 2:38:10.959 --> 2:38:12.920 like a black guy doing drag and it's just like 2:38:13.000 --> 2:38:14.960 a thing, like nobody comments on it, like it's just 2:38:15.080 --> 2:38:16.920 like a thing that he's having a good time and 2:38:17.240 --> 2:38:20.240 you could not like like people people people would show 2:38:20.320 --> 2:38:22.360 up to yeah, like people people, which people like yeah, 2:38:22.600 --> 2:38:25.200 like I won't be on Tucker Carlson like yeah, like 2:38:25.280 --> 2:38:27.480 like the people people. Yeah, you'd have like mobs showing 2:38:27.560 --> 2:38:30.560 up in front of your house like it's yeah yeah, 2:38:31.440 --> 2:38:34.000 like I don't know, like yeah, if hackers came out now, 2:38:34.480 --> 2:38:38.640 we would have like Tucker Carson complaining about the wokeme 2:38:38.720 --> 2:38:45.600 up trying to kids and to gay activists like I 2:38:45.680 --> 2:38:48.760 don't know. I love the movie so much, not not 2:38:48.959 --> 2:38:56.000 because it's good, but because it's culturally important, yes, and yeah, 2:38:56.200 --> 2:38:59.480 and the characters are like great, like they made everyone 2:38:59.560 --> 2:39:02.040 career somehow. And I'm still not sure I whether Devil 2:39:02.080 --> 2:39:06.400 was intentional or not. I don't know, but I leaned 2:39:06.400 --> 2:39:08.040 towards they didn't know what they were doing, and that 2:39:08.120 --> 2:39:11.360 makes it even funnier. Yeah, it makes it so much better. 2:39:11.520 --> 2:39:13.720 And also the fact that it's like got past like 2:39:13.879 --> 2:39:17.320 producers and everything, and it was made the queerest piece 2:39:17.440 --> 2:39:20.520 of like Hollywood media I have ever seen that wasn't 2:39:20.640 --> 2:39:25.760 meant to be queer. It's just like, yeah, yeah, cool 2:39:25.800 --> 2:39:28.560 time we weren't on this tension because yeah we we 2:39:28.720 --> 2:39:30.800 we we we we We simply love to see it 2:39:30.959 --> 2:39:33.960 be gay, do crimes hack the planet? Uh, this is 2:39:34.000 --> 2:39:36.600 not legally for the FBI. This is not legally actionable. 2:39:36.640 --> 2:39:43.360 This is a joke, yes, from the movie Hackers, which 2:39:43.400 --> 2:39:49.920 you could watch Hackers. Yeah in places. Yeah, if you 2:39:50.040 --> 2:39:53.000 can watch it very legally on the internet. I actually 2:39:53.000 --> 2:39:55.320 don't know if it's on any streaming platform. I don't 2:39:55.400 --> 2:39:58.840 think I watched it. I think it is because I 2:39:58.920 --> 2:40:01.000 watched it with my family kind of recently, which was 2:40:01.040 --> 2:40:06.080 a wild time. It's probably streaming. Oh, it's it's it's 2:40:06.120 --> 2:40:09.560 an Apple TV apparently. Yeah, so it's there. You can 2:40:09.600 --> 2:40:11.520 find it there. You can find it in other places. 2:40:11.760 --> 2:40:15.640 It can it can find it somewhere, both legally and illegally. 2:40:16.520 --> 2:40:21.240 If I'm allowed to endorse like piracy on your podcast, 2:40:21.440 --> 2:40:23.520 it's we We We did an entire episode about how 2:40:23.560 --> 2:40:27.360 the pirate stuff. So yeah, so yeah, you can find 2:40:27.400 --> 2:40:29.800 it both legally and illegally, and if you're lucky, I'm 2:40:29.879 --> 2:40:36.120 the one seeding the Torrent. And then actually, okay, but 2:40:36.360 --> 2:40:38.360 the other thing I actually should before you if people 2:40:38.440 --> 2:40:41.280 want to find you, where can they find you? I'm 2:40:41.320 --> 2:40:44.560 on Twitter at Underscore nine crime you and in case 2:40:44.600 --> 2:40:47.560 Twitter suspends me once again for the sex time. I 2:40:47.680 --> 2:40:50.160 have a website at Maya dot crime you dot k 2:40:50.879 --> 2:40:55.959 it rules. It's so good it Yes, the reason I'm 2:40:56.000 --> 2:40:59.920 famous now, it's just because my website is paying. It's great. 2:41:01.640 --> 2:41:06.040 Uh yeah. So this this has been Make it Happen here. 2:41:06.160 --> 2:41:11.720 You can find us at Happened here pod at Twitter, Instagram. Um, yeah, 2:41:11.760 --> 2:41:13.920 I guess I am at it b h R three. 2:41:15.360 --> 2:41:36.119 Uh yeah, go in, go in crime. Welcome back once again. 2:41:36.200 --> 2:41:38.480 This is the crew from It's Going Down, squatting the 2:41:38.520 --> 2:41:41.280 air waves if it could happen here. On today's show, 2:41:41.400 --> 2:41:44.279 we're going to look at the growing crisis around homelessness 2:41:44.760 --> 2:41:46.880 and how the state has moved to address it with 2:41:47.040 --> 2:41:51.360 brutal sweeps and new laws that target the poor. In 2:41:51.440 --> 2:41:54.840 the wake of the global COVID nineteen pandemic, the US 2:41:54.879 --> 2:41:59.760 housing crisis deepened, and homelessness crew following the George Foyd rebellion. 2:42:00.200 --> 2:42:04.600 Republicans pointed to a rising murderate during the election cycle, 2:42:04.760 --> 2:42:08.000 along with growing encampments of the houseless, as examples of 2:42:08.160 --> 2:42:12.800 rampant democratic mismanagement and the supposed in result of defunding 2:42:12.840 --> 2:42:17.280 the police. In reality, two years after the uprising. Both 2:42:17.400 --> 2:42:20.000 funding for the police has only increased along with the 2:42:20.160 --> 2:42:23.520 number of people killed per year by law enforcement, while 2:42:23.600 --> 2:42:28.080 growing police budgets have had no impact on crime. Meanwhile, 2:42:28.400 --> 2:42:31.520 both parties have embraced a draconian crackdown on the house 2:42:31.600 --> 2:42:35.160 list as a slew of new laws targets sleeping outside, 2:42:35.560 --> 2:42:38.920 and police move against encampments even in the midst of 2:42:39.080 --> 2:42:42.520 extreme weather. But a new wave of resistance is also 2:42:42.600 --> 2:42:47.040 materializing as communities mobilized to provide mutual aid, fight for 2:42:47.160 --> 2:42:51.520 access to housing, and resist sweeps of encampments. On today's episode, 2:42:51.879 --> 2:42:55.280 we investigate the history of these struggles and how these tactics, 2:42:55.480 --> 2:42:58.800 ranging from squatting to a cant defense, are spreading across 2:42:58.840 --> 2:43:02.160 the social terrain as the current crisis deepens, can more 2:43:02.280 --> 2:43:05.800 people find themselves out in the call? But to kick 2:43:05.879 --> 2:43:09.000 things off, let's talk about state strategy. Just why are 2:43:09.080 --> 2:43:12.240 they carrying out these sweeps? I think one of the 2:43:12.280 --> 2:43:14.200 first thing that comes to mind for me is how 2:43:14.400 --> 2:43:17.080 this behavior from like the Democrats or like liberals or 2:43:17.120 --> 2:43:21.160 progressives isn't an anomaly that they are You know that 2:43:21.280 --> 2:43:24.800 their role is facilitating a capitalist state, just with slightly 2:43:24.879 --> 2:43:28.000 different tactics than the Republicans, but basically they're trying to 2:43:28.080 --> 2:43:32.760 do that. What they're doing, which is basically demonizing unhoused 2:43:32.800 --> 2:43:37.320 people and sort of pushes the blame of, um, what's 2:43:37.360 --> 2:43:41.039 going on, of the failings basically of our culture, onto 2:43:41.200 --> 2:43:45.120 these individuals that are unhoused, rather than on their failures 2:43:45.440 --> 2:43:49.440 as like mayors of democratic cities or whatever, um and 2:43:49.560 --> 2:43:54.880 the kind of logical outcome of class based capitalists extracted society. 2:43:55.600 --> 2:43:57.480 And when they can just make it that instead of 2:43:57.560 --> 2:44:00.199 it being like a social problem that people are on hours, 2:44:00.200 --> 2:44:03.240 they can make it these bad homeless people and they're 2:44:03.600 --> 2:44:06.840 dirty and crime or whatever, and just kind of trying 2:44:06.840 --> 2:44:09.520 and eliminate that to protect their image. But I think 2:44:09.560 --> 2:44:12.760 it's just a way of scapegoating a built in problem 2:44:13.160 --> 2:44:15.920 with how they operate. And actually it's something that makes 2:44:15.920 --> 2:44:18.560 me think, especially thinking about San Francisco in terms of 2:44:18.640 --> 2:44:20.520 like precedence for this. It makes me think about the 2:44:20.640 --> 2:44:23.720 Ugly Laws, which, for anyone who doesn't know that was 2:44:23.800 --> 2:44:27.199 something kind of in the San Francisco implemented in eighteen 2:44:27.240 --> 2:44:30.880 sixty seven, which was a law forbidding people who were 2:44:30.959 --> 2:44:34.000 kind of like unsightly according to this law, UM to 2:44:34.160 --> 2:44:36.640 not be seen in the streets. So if people were 2:44:36.720 --> 2:44:40.800 physically disabled or they were begging or even limping, there 2:44:40.840 --> 2:44:43.360 were laws targeting them. And part of it even says 2:44:43.440 --> 2:44:47.120 that anything that's triggering like disgust or guilt like to 2:44:47.240 --> 2:44:48.760 not be seen. And I feel like it's a really 2:44:48.800 --> 2:44:52.920 similar thing that's happening now. And so yeah, progressive as 2:44:52.959 --> 2:44:55.600 they do this. I'm one that you brought up able 2:44:55.680 --> 2:44:57.800 is because I think that this ties in rur role 2:44:57.879 --> 2:44:59.840 while into that. So we live in essentially like on 2:44:59.920 --> 2:45:02.440 a extremely able to society that says if you don't work, 2:45:02.760 --> 2:45:06.560 you die, and I think criminalizing homeless people is a 2:45:06.640 --> 2:45:08.360 huge part of that. I mean, really think about it. 2:45:08.640 --> 2:45:12.680 We have to rent our bodies to corporations so we 2:45:12.760 --> 2:45:16.800 can get money to pay rent to landlords. Essentially we're 2:45:16.840 --> 2:45:19.600 being paid at tax to live. But how do you 2:45:19.760 --> 2:45:21.840 force people? How else can you get people to do 2:45:21.920 --> 2:45:24.160 the drudgery that we have to do at work if 2:45:24.200 --> 2:45:26.440 you don't like show them the consequences of that. So 2:45:26.560 --> 2:45:28.760 like if they were nice to homeless people, if they 2:45:28.800 --> 2:45:30.720 were like, oh, here's a free home, they not create 2:45:30.800 --> 2:45:34.240 a president of like, oh, you cannot work and have 2:45:34.400 --> 2:45:36.080 a home. So like they don't want to do that. 2:45:36.240 --> 2:45:37.640 So I mean, I think one thing that people don't 2:45:37.640 --> 2:45:40.080 talk about, like homelessness is existing. I think it's like 2:45:40.520 --> 2:45:44.600 a way to like scare us into essentially doing these 2:45:44.640 --> 2:45:46.280 things that we don't want to do to live, because 2:45:46.320 --> 2:45:48.640 you're constantly reminding us of like, oh, you want to 2:45:48.760 --> 2:45:51.440 quiet Quinn, you want to go on a strike, this 2:45:51.640 --> 2:45:54.480 is what your life could be. You're gonna be homeless. 2:45:54.520 --> 2:45:56.840 And not only that, we're gonna make it so that 2:45:57.040 --> 2:45:59.520 you can't exist as a homeless person in this society 2:45:59.600 --> 2:46:01.680 because people like if you go to New York right now, 2:46:01.800 --> 2:46:05.080 all these brunchy folks they eat on the sidewalk, they 2:46:05.160 --> 2:46:07.400 have all these like houses build up on the sidewalk, 2:46:07.440 --> 2:46:09.920 people and drinking mimosas. But you can't have a tan 2:46:10.200 --> 2:46:12.240 but one of these makeshift things. So I mean it 2:46:12.280 --> 2:46:13.920 goes to show you like it's not even like the 2:46:14.080 --> 2:46:16.879 idea of taking public space. It's like who's taking public space? 2:46:17.120 --> 2:46:19.760 And if it's somebody who's not serving capitalism, you can't 2:46:19.760 --> 2:46:23.360 take up public space. The housing question. To really understand 2:46:23.440 --> 2:46:27.080 the connection with democrats and capitalists understands of housing, we 2:46:27.120 --> 2:46:30.360 have to think about how housing, how property structure space, right, 2:46:30.440 --> 2:46:33.920 how capitalism structures space. And so you know, when I 2:46:34.040 --> 2:46:36.400 was thinking about this before we're recording, I keep going 2:46:36.480 --> 2:46:39.680 back to James Scott Seeing Like a State, which is, 2:46:39.800 --> 2:46:41.760 you know, an amazing book. If people haven't read it, 2:46:42.160 --> 2:46:45.320 absolutely pick up a copy. But in the first you know, 2:46:45.440 --> 2:46:47.280 couple of chapters, one of the things he talks about 2:46:47.320 --> 2:46:51.400 islantic closure, and he's talking about this structure specifically in France, 2:46:51.480 --> 2:46:54.920 in which sort of towards the end of monarchism, there 2:46:55.000 --> 2:46:57.400 was an attempt to actually create a tax regime where 2:46:57.400 --> 2:47:00.520 individuals were taxed, and to do that into jules had 2:47:00.560 --> 2:47:03.920 to exist legally, but they didn't at that point. They 2:47:04.080 --> 2:47:07.320 existed as communities within feudalism. They pay taxes as communities 2:47:07.360 --> 2:47:10.720 that held land as communities. When the French government went 2:47:10.840 --> 2:47:13.920 to these towns to figure out who owned what, but 2:47:14.040 --> 2:47:16.960 they found was that every single community broke up their 2:47:17.040 --> 2:47:20.080 understanding of land differently and that it wasn't really based 2:47:20.120 --> 2:47:22.600 on ownership, is based on use. And so they had 2:47:22.640 --> 2:47:24.560 to standardize all of that. To do that, they had 2:47:24.560 --> 2:47:26.520 to fragment the commons. They had to sit there and go, 2:47:27.080 --> 2:47:28.720 you owned this piece of land, and you owned this 2:47:28.800 --> 2:47:31.000 piece of land. They did that, they made maps, and 2:47:31.040 --> 2:47:33.600 they went back two years later they realized nobody was 2:47:33.600 --> 2:47:35.760 following the maps. But what they did was they started 2:47:35.840 --> 2:47:38.600 charging taxes based on the maps. And so people had 2:47:38.640 --> 2:47:40.720 to start making money on the land to pay the 2:47:40.800 --> 2:47:42.840 taxes based on the maps that have nothing to do 2:47:42.920 --> 2:47:46.080 with their lives, right. And what that was was the 2:47:46.160 --> 2:47:49.920 creation of property right. Because when we think about property, 2:47:50.320 --> 2:47:53.080 you know, there's this fiction of you know, stateless capitalism, right, 2:47:53.120 --> 2:47:56.080 you have like Murray Rothbard grand types we were talking about. 2:47:56.400 --> 2:47:58.720 You know, capitalism can exist without the state. But really 2:47:58.760 --> 2:48:00.640 we can see the fallacy of at when we look 2:48:00.720 --> 2:48:03.879 at the at the question of property right, the question 2:48:04.080 --> 2:48:07.760 of exclusion from property or exclusion from space. Um. Not 2:48:07.879 --> 2:48:10.000 only is it fragmenting public space, but we start to 2:48:10.080 --> 2:48:13.680 look at um the way that all of a sudden 2:48:14.080 --> 2:48:17.280 property has to exist. Right. And so in the Rust Belt, 2:48:17.280 --> 2:48:21.720 for example, after the financial crisis, cities Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit 2:48:21.879 --> 2:48:23.760 got all this money from the federal government to tear 2:48:23.840 --> 2:48:26.879 houses down, and they were tearing down like fifty houses 2:48:26.920 --> 2:48:29.840 a day in these cities right for years on end. 2:48:30.400 --> 2:48:32.560 And these are cities that have people that don't have houses. 2:48:33.680 --> 2:48:35.440 And so you you sit there and you go, well, 2:48:35.480 --> 2:48:38.320 why are they tearing houses down when there are people 2:48:38.400 --> 2:48:41.920 that don't have houses, right, When there's more vacant houses 2:48:42.000 --> 2:48:44.920 than there are people without housing, How can you justify 2:48:44.959 --> 2:48:47.360 tearing the houses down. And the answer was, we need 2:48:47.440 --> 2:48:49.960 to create a real estate market again, because if you 2:48:50.000 --> 2:48:52.560 allow people to just squat, there's no reason to pay 2:48:52.600 --> 2:48:54.640 for housing. If there's a reason to pay for housing, 2:48:54.680 --> 2:48:57.840 housing seasons to be a commodity. Right, Like this is 2:48:57.879 --> 2:49:01.160 actually the important part. Like capitalism has to function through 2:49:01.200 --> 2:49:05.400 that exclusion of access. Otherwise commodities can't have the scarcity 2:49:05.520 --> 2:49:09.120 necessary to allow them to be priced right. There can't 2:49:09.200 --> 2:49:12.760 be a supply that is lower than in demand, for example, 2:49:13.160 --> 2:49:17.520 unless you artificially limit supply. Right. And so when we 2:49:17.680 --> 2:49:20.120 really see this, we can really see not just the 2:49:20.160 --> 2:49:23.760 way that capitalism sort of atomizes us, right, creates us 2:49:23.800 --> 2:49:26.880 as people who live in individual housing units, as opposed 2:49:26.879 --> 2:49:29.400 to as people who can see ourselves as living in communities. 2:49:30.080 --> 2:49:32.800 But it also really comes to highlight the relationship between 2:49:32.840 --> 2:49:35.160 the state and the police at capital and how we 2:49:35.240 --> 2:49:38.400 have to understand capital as a content of the state. 2:49:38.560 --> 2:49:41.959 It is a definition of life that is imposed through 2:49:42.040 --> 2:49:45.680 policing purity and can't exist outside of that. Right, It's 2:49:45.720 --> 2:49:48.800 the fallacy of quote unquote anarcho capitalism, which isn't the 2:49:48.840 --> 2:49:51.800 thing that really exists for this exact reason. Right, And 2:49:51.959 --> 2:49:54.800 so when we're looking at why are democrats engaging in 2:49:54.920 --> 2:49:58.160 techniques that involve pushing people off the streets, this is 2:49:58.200 --> 2:50:01.160 exactly why it's a capital was political property. They're trying 2:50:01.160 --> 2:50:04.520 to maintain properly, They're trying to be properly value, right, 2:50:04.600 --> 2:50:07.200 And this is why you see this happen in cities 2:50:07.200 --> 2:50:11.360 where gentrification is really horrible and a much much faster 2:50:11.520 --> 2:50:13.800 clip than you see it in cities where there's like 2:50:13.879 --> 2:50:16.440 open housing stock. That really makes me think about the 2:50:16.760 --> 2:50:21.040 beginning of like workhouses in England in the eighteen thirties 2:50:21.080 --> 2:50:22.720 and the poor law reforms, and it goes back to 2:50:22.760 --> 2:50:26.040 what you were saying more about just that making it 2:50:26.120 --> 2:50:29.920 really undesirable to be poor, you know, like needing a 2:50:30.000 --> 2:50:32.160 group of people who are in that position, And the 2:50:32.280 --> 2:50:36.400 workhouses was something that were introduced by liberals, progressives, you know, 2:50:36.520 --> 2:50:39.160 like this as a form of like changing this or 2:50:39.280 --> 2:50:41.960 poor release system. So instead of giving people money so 2:50:42.080 --> 2:50:44.240 they could be supported and stay with their families or whatever. 2:50:44.600 --> 2:50:47.320 People would put into these institutions where they're separated from 2:50:47.360 --> 2:50:50.360 their kids, from their husbands and wives or whatever. And 2:50:50.480 --> 2:50:52.960 it's meant to be so undesirable that you would only 2:50:53.040 --> 2:50:55.920 seek it if you was desperately needed it or whatever, 2:50:56.720 --> 2:50:58.760 um as a way to like save on taxes for 2:50:59.120 --> 2:51:02.000 like money. Basically it's really sucked up. And it's like 2:51:02.160 --> 2:51:05.640 this was part of the sort social reform progressive like project, 2:51:05.760 --> 2:51:07.320 and I think we can see echoes of that in this. 2:51:07.680 --> 2:51:09.040 The other thing that I wanted to bring up is 2:51:09.080 --> 2:51:11.520 like you talked about atomizing and isolating and like how 2:51:11.680 --> 2:51:14.560 capitalism does that. One thing that I think about specifically 2:51:14.640 --> 2:51:17.760 New York is that homeless and camps do offer this 2:51:17.920 --> 2:51:19.640 radical idea of like what it looks like to take 2:51:19.680 --> 2:51:22.480 back a public space and to collectively like meet together, 2:51:22.600 --> 2:51:23.880 you know. And like that's the other thing that I 2:51:24.000 --> 2:51:25.960 was thinking about last night when I was high, this 2:51:26.080 --> 2:51:29.320 whole idea of what happens if we just allow homeless 2:51:29.560 --> 2:51:32.360 encampments to spread and take over. Then people who are 2:51:32.400 --> 2:51:35.120 not homeless start interacting with homeless people as we do 2:51:35.360 --> 2:51:37.640 like people in the city do. Then you form these 2:51:37.680 --> 2:51:40.720 connections in these relationships, and then it becomes perfectly normal 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:43.560 for people to take over public spaces, and then what 2:51:43.640 --> 2:51:46.080 does that mean? Then we have to provide services in 2:51:46.120 --> 2:51:49.200 public spaces like bathrooms and showers because the public would 2:51:49.320 --> 2:51:51.840 start requesting and like asking for these things the more 2:51:51.879 --> 2:51:54.280 of a relationship they form with homeless folks. So I 2:51:54.320 --> 2:51:57.200 think part of the cleaning, which is what the term 2:51:57.360 --> 2:52:00.400 Eric Adams is used, which is absolutely disgusting terms of 2:52:00.440 --> 2:52:03.199 like moving homeless people the whole, I think a huge 2:52:03.280 --> 2:52:06.600 part of it is also just like destroying the notion 2:52:06.720 --> 2:52:09.000 that we own public spaces, like you do not own 2:52:09.080 --> 2:52:10.640 a public space, and we want to let you know 2:52:10.800 --> 2:52:12.680 that and we want you out. Um. So I think 2:52:12.720 --> 2:52:15.040 that really And and the additional aspect of that too 2:52:15.120 --> 2:52:16.400 is like when you look at homeless is in New York, 2:52:16.400 --> 2:52:18.320 like a huge chunk of it like black people too, 2:52:18.360 --> 2:52:20.480 So there's like a racial component of it too. When 2:52:20.520 --> 2:52:22.199 you really want to add it for this whole idea 2:52:22.200 --> 2:52:24.039 of like black people are not allowed to take up 2:52:24.080 --> 2:52:26.240 space and then specifically if you're homeless, you're not allowed 2:52:26.240 --> 2:52:27.920 to take up public space. I wanted to bring that in. 2:52:28.000 --> 2:52:30.280 It's like very much related to work, but also just 2:52:30.400 --> 2:52:32.480 related to the idea that the government owns everything and 2:52:32.600 --> 2:52:36.320 corporations own everything, including the spaces that we exist in. Well, 2:52:36.400 --> 2:52:40.400 speaking of corporations owning everything, here's some words from our sponsors. 2:52:44.680 --> 2:52:48.400 Across the US, in large cities, often controlled by Democrats, 2:52:48.680 --> 2:52:51.400 a war on the poor, and specifically on encampments of 2:52:51.480 --> 2:52:54.760 houses people has been increasing ways over the past year. 2:52:55.240 --> 2:52:59.080 In San Francisco, the city's mayor, London Breed recently declared 2:52:59.120 --> 2:53:01.520 it was time to que be less tolerant of all 2:53:01.560 --> 2:53:04.360 the bullshit that has destroyed our city, an effort to 2:53:04.480 --> 2:53:07.959 ramp up police harassment of the poor and unhoused. In Portland, 2:53:08.080 --> 2:53:11.280 city officials openly toyed with the idea of forcing quote 2:53:11.480 --> 2:53:14.600 up to three thousand homeless people in the massive temporary 2:53:14.680 --> 2:53:18.760 shelters staffed by the Oregon National Guard, while on California, 2:53:19.120 --> 2:53:23.480 the Democratic governor Gavin Newsom has pushed for quote care courts, 2:53:23.640 --> 2:53:26.080 which threatened to place those who do not complete state 2:53:26.160 --> 2:53:31.680 directives under involuntary hospitalization of policy, which mirrors efforts already 2:53:31.800 --> 2:53:36.120 underway in New York. Bands against camping, panhandling, sleeping in 2:53:36.200 --> 2:53:40.280 one's car have also proliferated last spring For instance, Tennessee 2:53:40.400 --> 2:53:42.800 made it a felony to camp on public owned land. 2:53:43.080 --> 2:53:46.200 In Missouri, those caught sleeping on state property could now 2:53:46.280 --> 2:53:49.080 get jail time and fines under a new law that 2:53:49.200 --> 2:53:52.240 just went into effect on January one. Other new laws 2:53:52.360 --> 2:53:55.279 out lawn caminton, l a next to schools and forbid 2:53:55.360 --> 2:53:58.400 houses folks from sleeping on public transit in New York. 2:53:58.640 --> 2:54:02.160 In the progressive bashing the Asheville, North Carolina, over a 2:54:02.320 --> 2:54:05.920 dozen mutual aid organizers also now faced trumped up charges 2:54:06.120 --> 2:54:10.279 of felony littering for supporting protest against sweeps of encampments. 2:54:10.920 --> 2:54:13.880 This shift in many liberal cities to criminalize attack and 2:54:13.959 --> 2:54:17.040 band encampments shows just how much the Democratic Party has 2:54:17.120 --> 2:54:20.400 continued to move to the right while embracing Republicans line 2:54:20.480 --> 2:54:24.480 on combating rising crime. Instead of mobilizing the state's forces 2:54:24.560 --> 2:54:26.760 to house people need their most basic needs in a 2:54:26.840 --> 2:54:30.160 period of mass pandemic and a growing housing crisis, liberal 2:54:30.240 --> 2:54:33.680 governments across the country have instead mobilized their forces to 2:54:33.760 --> 2:54:36.200 attack some of the most vulnerable. When you know more 2:54:36.240 --> 2:54:39.200 about what's driving these ongoing attacks on the houses and 2:54:39.280 --> 2:54:42.000 how it relates to the housing crisis itself, we sat 2:54:42.080 --> 2:54:45.200 down with Gifford Hartman, a long time radical organizer in 2:54:45.240 --> 2:54:49.400 the Bay Area. In a former squatter movements arise like 2:54:49.520 --> 2:54:53.760 say the George Floyd Uprising, and there's some changes. There's 2:54:53.800 --> 2:54:57.720 some movement towards reforms the police brutality and things like that, 2:54:57.879 --> 2:55:00.360 and then there's kind of a backlash. And I think 2:55:00.480 --> 2:55:02.560 right now we're kind of suffering through a backlash. And 2:55:02.640 --> 2:55:04.920 I think that's kind of a pattern that happens, is 2:55:05.800 --> 2:55:08.880 there's pushback kind of penal reform, trying to ring the 2:55:08.879 --> 2:55:10.800 pelias in a little bit, and then the kind of 2:55:10.879 --> 2:55:14.600 the backlash means just the police have more power and 2:55:14.640 --> 2:55:16.840 they have more power to really kind of brutalize on 2:55:16.920 --> 2:55:19.360 house people. And I think we're living through that right now. 2:55:19.560 --> 2:55:23.160 I think the trends go, you know, like back and forth, 2:55:23.280 --> 2:55:25.560 and the pendulum has swung in the direction where right 2:55:25.640 --> 2:55:29.880 now in San Francisco there's constant sweeps of tents and 2:55:30.040 --> 2:55:32.600 how and how's people living on the streets. There's a 2:55:32.680 --> 2:55:35.160 lot of media support given to that, and it's kind 2:55:35.200 --> 2:55:37.120 of like, as I said, the tail lags the dog 2:55:37.240 --> 2:55:39.480 and then they start doing all this stuff and the 2:55:39.560 --> 2:55:42.959 pushback hasn't really Activism hasn't really been able to kind 2:55:42.959 --> 2:55:45.240 of stand up to that and stop it or even 2:55:45.360 --> 2:55:48.560 challenge it. Right now, at least what I see, booms 2:55:48.600 --> 2:55:51.360 happen and property values go up and vacancies go to 2:55:51.480 --> 2:55:55.400 almost zero, the cops cracked down harder. And I think 2:55:55.440 --> 2:55:58.400 there have been periods at least in my lifetime here 2:55:58.400 --> 2:56:00.600 in the Bay Area, where there's out of a lulla, 2:56:00.640 --> 2:56:03.600 there's the bottom of the trough, when maybe there's more vacancies, 2:56:03.640 --> 2:56:05.959 a little bit more wiggle room, the cups quite aren't 2:56:06.000 --> 2:56:09.039 quite so brutal. But when things are peaking, or when 2:56:09.120 --> 2:56:12.920 the economies, you know, it's dynamic, kind of high poise, 2:56:13.840 --> 2:56:16.000 that's where I see the repression is the worst, because 2:56:16.040 --> 2:56:18.960 there's more people to complain. There's more people whose you know, 2:56:19.200 --> 2:56:22.960 values are tied to property and who are more willing 2:56:23.040 --> 2:56:26.680 to push the cops to brutalize on house people and um. 2:56:26.800 --> 2:56:29.800 But you know, right now it's kind of framed because 2:56:29.920 --> 2:56:33.080 there's a lot of tech layoffs. Yet the agenda of 2:56:33.680 --> 2:56:37.280 sweeping tense and none house people off the streets is 2:56:37.360 --> 2:56:40.920 kind of still kind of a rapid pace. So I 2:56:41.160 --> 2:56:43.080 don't know how much longer to last, but right now 2:56:43.080 --> 2:56:45.640 it's at a pretty high point as we speak. The 2:56:45.720 --> 2:56:48.800 weather is awful and the sweeps haven't really stopped, and 2:56:48.920 --> 2:56:51.400 there aren't enough shelter beds to house although on the 2:56:51.480 --> 2:56:54.600 house folks. So it's really a crisis. It's not only 2:56:54.720 --> 2:56:57.440 just a you know, human crisis, but it's a health 2:56:57.520 --> 2:57:00.720 crisis because people out in the cold rain are more 2:57:00.800 --> 2:57:03.600 vulnerable to getting sick and dying. And it's it should 2:57:03.640 --> 2:57:06.040 be the time where we're doing the opposite. We're making 2:57:06.040 --> 2:57:09.920 sure everybody's housed, and it just certainly isn't happening. Even 2:57:09.959 --> 2:57:13.640 though San Francisco, the Marits have been Democrats, I believe 2:57:13.720 --> 2:57:17.400 since the mid sixties. The Democrats aren't a monolith, and 2:57:17.480 --> 2:57:20.200 they're not all progressive, and even the progressive ones aren't 2:57:20.240 --> 2:57:22.879 that good. But the ones that are in power now, 2:57:23.040 --> 2:57:27.879 like mayor London Breed are moderates, and um, they really 2:57:27.920 --> 2:57:30.520 are more believe in the police more, and they believe 2:57:30.560 --> 2:57:34.120 in using police for social crimes. And when they're not moderate, 2:57:34.600 --> 2:57:36.680 it's a little less bad, but it's not better, it's 2:57:36.720 --> 2:57:38.920 just less bad. I don't know if that really makes sense, 2:57:39.240 --> 2:57:41.400 because I don't think there's ever been a political regime 2:57:41.480 --> 2:57:44.600 in San Francisco. That wasn't pro cop. You know, everybody 2:57:44.680 --> 2:57:48.080 loves the cops. Everybody sees the cops is um ways 2:57:48.120 --> 2:57:50.720 to enforce the social values of society, which are private 2:57:50.760 --> 2:57:53.240 property and all that. And it just never stops. It 2:57:53.320 --> 2:57:55.520 just depends how brutal they are. And again, unless I 2:57:55.600 --> 2:57:58.760 said earlier, it goes through waves. And presently we're in 2:57:58.800 --> 2:58:02.200 a brutal way and the only alternative that is a 2:58:02.280 --> 2:58:05.120 less rutal way. And so my opinion, there's never a 2:58:05.160 --> 2:58:07.840 time when the cops don't, you know, run rapid, but 2:58:08.040 --> 2:58:09.840 just right now. But right now they're actually at the 2:58:09.920 --> 2:58:12.680 high point that they've been in a long time. And 2:58:12.760 --> 2:58:15.120 now we speak with Javier from the National Coach on 2:58:15.200 --> 2:58:18.320 Homelessness in San Francisco. We talk about the current wave 2:58:18.360 --> 2:58:20.720 of a tox against house those people in big cities 2:58:20.920 --> 2:58:24.160 and how they mirror historic attempts at policing and repressing 2:58:24.320 --> 2:58:27.240 the poor. The income that you need to rent a 2:58:27.320 --> 2:58:31.360 two bedroom apartment, by the city's own estimation, you need 2:58:31.480 --> 2:58:34.800 an hourly wage of about sixty one fifty to have 2:58:35.320 --> 2:58:39.440 an apartment like that. So the income gap is becoming 2:58:39.720 --> 2:58:43.480 more evident than ever. Nowadays, there's a nine percent increase 2:58:43.560 --> 2:58:46.560 in homelessness for every hundred dollar increase in rents. So 2:58:46.680 --> 2:58:51.320 it's like if healthcare, housing, education all gets more expensive 2:58:51.360 --> 2:58:55.320 but wages don't go up, people are gonna lose their housing. Um. So, 2:58:55.440 --> 2:58:59.480 I think people need to understand and how similar we 2:58:59.600 --> 2:59:02.600 are to the unhoused population and how important it is 2:59:02.680 --> 2:59:05.560 to recognize that we should have solidarity with each other, 2:59:05.640 --> 2:59:08.640 because if we're fighting against each other, then guests is 2:59:08.680 --> 2:59:12.960 when the millionaires in the build we're doing the city 2:59:13.280 --> 2:59:17.520 because when they do these sweeps, they're taking people's belongings, 2:59:17.720 --> 2:59:20.960 which is a legal searcuncedure and cruel and unusual punishment 2:59:21.040 --> 2:59:24.040 because the shelter that they're offering a lot of times 2:59:24.200 --> 2:59:28.560 isn't adequate for the folks who are being sweat. We're 2:59:28.600 --> 2:59:33.000 looking for permanent supportive housing for folks and it's not there. 2:59:33.280 --> 2:59:35.560 And if you're telling people that they have to move 2:59:35.600 --> 2:59:39.520 across the street every day in the morning, then it 2:59:39.720 --> 2:59:42.280 kind of shows I think a social and kind of 2:59:42.360 --> 2:59:47.680 cultural understanding that mirrors the ugly laws people have had 2:59:47.760 --> 2:59:50.920 in place, especially in America for a long time, which 2:59:51.000 --> 2:59:54.800 is homeless people are not supposed to be seen and 2:59:55.320 --> 2:59:58.880 they're supposed to be criminalized and speaking of things that 2:59:59.000 --> 3:00:02.400 probably shouldn't be scene again some words from our sponsors, 3:00:05.680 --> 3:00:09.560 from resisting sweeps, studying up autonomous warming centers, to taking 3:00:09.640 --> 3:00:13.240 over vacant buildings. Over the past few years, there's been 3:00:13.240 --> 3:00:16.880 a wide array of expressions of solidarity, direct action, and 3:00:17.080 --> 3:00:19.280 mutual aid in the face of attempts by the state 3:00:19.400 --> 3:00:22.760 to displace and destroy the lives of houses people across 3:00:22.879 --> 3:00:26.000 the US. But these projects and actions haven't come out 3:00:26.040 --> 3:00:29.120 of nowhere, building on the radical history of groups in 3:00:29.160 --> 3:00:32.119 the Bay Area, such as the Diggers and the White Panthers, 3:00:32.520 --> 3:00:35.920 who set up free stores, grocery programs, and squatted buildings. 3:00:36.200 --> 3:00:39.600 Starting in the nineteen eighties, out of the anti nuclear movement, 3:00:39.760 --> 3:00:43.119 peace activists began sharing free vegan food in a protest 3:00:43.200 --> 3:00:46.440 of the US war budget under the banner Food not Bombs. 3:00:46.840 --> 3:00:49.320 In the late nineteen eighties, Food Not Bombs in San 3:00:49.320 --> 3:00:53.280 Francisco faced over one thousand arrest for sharing free food 3:00:53.360 --> 3:00:57.560 publicly and taking part in demonstrations. Soon, another group, Homes 3:00:57.640 --> 3:01:00.360 not Jails, evolved out of the same scene and began 3:01:00.440 --> 3:01:03.080 to open up and squat vacant housing, part of a 3:01:03.160 --> 3:01:07.199 wave of other houses activist groups that sprouted nationwide following 3:01:07.280 --> 3:01:10.800 the economic recession of the nineteen eighties. Chapters of Homes 3:01:10.879 --> 3:01:14.800 Not Jail's work to open squats weekly to covertly house people, 3:01:15.000 --> 3:01:19.360 also organizing public housing takeovers, which thrust squatting into the 3:01:19.400 --> 3:01:23.080 spotlight of the mass media. Again, here's Gifford Hartman talking 3:01:23.120 --> 3:01:26.160 about squatting in the ninety nineties. There have been a 3:01:26.240 --> 3:01:30.600 wave of I'm really successful squats in the nineteen seventies. 3:01:30.959 --> 3:01:33.000 One group was called the White Panthers that did it 3:01:33.080 --> 3:01:35.480 in the Lower Hate neighborhood, and they were modeled on 3:01:35.600 --> 3:01:39.240 the Black Panthers. So they actually squatted, but actually created 3:01:39.280 --> 3:01:43.240 community programs for things like new distribution. They defended their squads, 3:01:43.280 --> 3:01:46.360 they fortified their squads, and that was a tradition that 3:01:46.480 --> 3:01:49.480 kind of preceded my period of squatting. But so that 3:01:49.600 --> 3:01:52.240 we're both looking at the squatting in Europe but also 3:01:52.320 --> 3:01:55.400 the previous generations doing it here in San Francisco. Um 3:01:55.480 --> 3:01:57.560 I moved to the Bay Area in nineteen eight six. 3:01:57.640 --> 3:01:59.880 I have been Berkeley for most of the beginning of 3:02:00.040 --> 3:02:02.360 the years I was here. From the end of World 3:02:02.440 --> 3:02:06.520 War Two in the nineteen forties, the population in San 3:02:06.560 --> 3:02:09.960 Francisco peak in the mid twentieth century, and then it 3:02:10.040 --> 3:02:13.360 went down. Population decreased by a hundred thousand in the 3:02:13.440 --> 3:02:15.800 late eighties. There were still a lot of cracks in 3:02:16.120 --> 3:02:18.920 the surface of housing, and there was a lot of 3:02:19.000 --> 3:02:22.160 empty units. There's a lot of abandoned units, and there 3:02:22.240 --> 3:02:23.920 was a lot of a lot of ability to people 3:02:23.959 --> 3:02:26.600 to find squads and I was part of that. And 3:02:26.680 --> 3:02:29.160 there were various times where I either wasn't working or 3:02:29.240 --> 3:02:31.680 had a part time job, and I chose as a 3:02:31.720 --> 3:02:34.880 political active squad, and I began doing that in late eighties, 3:02:34.920 --> 3:02:37.720 but most of my success in squadding was in their 3:02:37.720 --> 3:02:40.720 early nineties. But then I kind of ran up against 3:02:40.879 --> 3:02:44.080 the contradiction, and groups like Homeside Jails were founded in 3:02:44.160 --> 3:02:48.640 nineteen two had already been squatting um. But then there 3:02:48.720 --> 3:02:53.160 was another wave of repression. So in nine to the 3:02:53.240 --> 3:02:55.920 former chief of police in San Francisco, Frank Jordan, got 3:02:56.000 --> 3:02:59.200 elected mayor and by nineteen ninety three he was doing 3:02:59.280 --> 3:03:03.480 something called the Matrix program. And the Matrix program was 3:03:03.760 --> 3:03:06.680 very much like what Juliani did in New York with 3:03:06.959 --> 3:03:10.280 his zero tolerance for broken windows, which just cops would 3:03:10.280 --> 3:03:13.400 get tough on quality of life crimes, which means like 3:03:13.640 --> 3:03:17.760 broken windows and graffiti, but it also included food not bombs. 3:03:17.840 --> 3:03:21.280 Feedings were attacked by the police, and squatters were even 3:03:21.680 --> 3:03:24.960 myself included, were attacked and cleared out, even in a 3:03:25.040 --> 3:03:28.800 way that was not legal. When I succeeded, we squatted covertly, 3:03:28.959 --> 3:03:31.440 and when we didn't succeed often we were aligned with 3:03:31.520 --> 3:03:34.360 groups like Homes Not Jails, where they were a high 3:03:34.400 --> 3:03:38.600 profile group or media savvy. Well, media savvy might be 3:03:38.640 --> 3:03:41.480 an overstatement. They were kind of had a media focus, 3:03:41.800 --> 3:03:44.520 and the media focus was often a double edged sword. 3:03:44.840 --> 3:03:49.400 It brought popular understanding of the conditions of the housing stock, 3:03:49.480 --> 3:03:51.800 but also it was a way for the police to 3:03:51.879 --> 3:03:54.200 be telegraphed exactly what we were doing in to come 3:03:54.200 --> 3:03:57.400 down and crack down on our squads. Homes on Jails 3:03:57.440 --> 3:03:59.760 wouldn't be the last group to take over vacant homes 3:03:59.840 --> 3:04:02.959 for housing. In mid two thousands, Take Back the Land, 3:04:03.200 --> 3:04:06.280 based out of Miami, Florida, work to block evictions and 3:04:06.360 --> 3:04:10.119 move un housed families into foreclosed homes. In the present period, 3:04:10.360 --> 3:04:13.400 various grassroots groups have organized to stop the sweeping of 3:04:13.480 --> 3:04:17.080 houses and cameras cruise in Olympia Washington and Austin, Texas 3:04:17.320 --> 3:04:21.520 have been successful in organizing broad campaigns. In Minneapolis, groups 3:04:21.560 --> 3:04:25.040 have mobilized mass numbers two at times all divictions. In 3:04:25.160 --> 3:04:27.600 the following interview, we speak with Christian and Post from 3:04:27.640 --> 3:04:30.600 Minnieapolis on the ongoing battle with the city government and 3:04:30.720 --> 3:04:34.120 police to stop attacks and sweeps on their houses neighbors. 3:04:34.920 --> 3:04:39.480 In the summer of George Floyd was murdered by Minneapolis police. 3:04:39.760 --> 3:04:42.720 It raised a lot of people's awareness as to the 3:04:42.800 --> 3:04:46.119 way that our systems and practices in our city aren't 3:04:46.160 --> 3:04:49.160 really serving us UM. I think there was there was 3:04:49.200 --> 3:04:52.800 a lot of work happening in Minneapolis in particular before 3:04:52.959 --> 3:04:55.680 that in regard to policing and the way that our 3:04:55.720 --> 3:04:59.200 systems do or do not serve people UM. And then 3:04:59.520 --> 3:05:04.320 in tw twenty, the awareness just grew exponentially. And because 3:05:04.400 --> 3:05:09.039 that foundational path had been laid already, we had something 3:05:09.320 --> 3:05:12.840 to go with UM and we can see the direct 3:05:13.000 --> 3:05:17.240 line between what happened to George Floyd and to the 3:05:17.360 --> 3:05:21.280 community at George Floyd Square and the way that that 3:05:21.560 --> 3:05:24.640 also shows up in other spaces in our communities, such 3:05:24.680 --> 3:05:28.080 as with our own house neighbors. We know that the 3:05:28.160 --> 3:05:31.760 majority of people that are living at encampments in Minneapolis 3:05:31.920 --> 3:05:38.200 are indigenous UM immigrant populations or UM Black Americans, and 3:05:38.920 --> 3:05:41.800 so we can see that there is you know, a 3:05:41.920 --> 3:05:46.440 specific need and also a real um a you know, 3:05:46.520 --> 3:05:50.840 a disparity between and a direct through line to all 3:05:50.920 --> 3:05:57.400 of them oppression that through in the face of every 3:05:57.879 --> 3:06:01.160 you know, I mean person with the heart absolutely and 3:06:01.280 --> 3:06:03.920 I think she started practicing a lot of mutual aid 3:06:04.680 --> 3:06:08.920 UM more like much bigger than we ever have his historically. 3:06:08.959 --> 3:06:12.119 In the summer, we saw lots of people getting involved 3:06:12.160 --> 3:06:15.280 that were encampments UM throughout the city as there was 3:06:15.800 --> 3:06:19.520 for some time because of covid UM people were able 3:06:19.640 --> 3:06:23.080 to stay outside and couldn't be evicted as easily UM 3:06:23.160 --> 3:06:25.840 at that time, and we saw lots of community getting 3:06:25.879 --> 3:06:29.440 involved and doing mutual aid UM and that really helped 3:06:29.600 --> 3:06:33.960 build I think, a movement that is you know, sort 3:06:34.000 --> 3:06:37.320 of beautifully disorganized in many ways because lots of people 3:06:37.440 --> 3:06:40.000 from lots of different walks of life coming together and 3:06:40.080 --> 3:06:42.440 showing up for each other. I mean, I think people 3:06:42.520 --> 3:06:44.560 started to become aware of the way that we are 3:06:44.640 --> 3:06:47.920 all connected to each other, and that when when we're 3:06:47.920 --> 3:06:51.400 taking care of each other, we're all happier, we're all safer, 3:06:51.560 --> 3:06:54.240 we're actually able to meet needs, and the resources are there. 3:06:54.280 --> 3:06:57.959 It's a matter of the will. I cannot over emphasize 3:06:58.040 --> 3:07:03.560 enough how terrible the boy Mayor Frey has been since 3:07:03.600 --> 3:07:06.520 he took power here and so called Minneapolis. You know, 3:07:06.640 --> 3:07:11.080 he ran on ending houselessness and was in majority funded 3:07:11.120 --> 3:07:15.760 by developers during his campaign, and we've seen what ending 3:07:15.959 --> 3:07:21.199 houselessness means to democrats. It basically means ending visible poverty 3:07:21.440 --> 3:07:25.400 and ending the new lives of houseless people. But frankly, 3:07:25.520 --> 3:07:28.040 I mean the number of evictions over the course of 3:07:28.040 --> 3:07:31.600 the last few years has just skyrocketed. And you know, 3:07:31.720 --> 3:07:35.600 are so called progressive politicians love to give some money 3:07:35.720 --> 3:07:39.800 to the nonprofit industrial complex and do their private public partnership, 3:07:40.000 --> 3:07:42.680 and then when there are people who are quote unquote 3:07:42.959 --> 3:07:45.360 resistant to service, that's the that's the phrase they love 3:07:45.400 --> 3:07:49.000 to use. They have all of their excuses lined ups 3:07:49.120 --> 3:07:51.440 that they can just build those people's houses and kick 3:07:51.520 --> 3:07:53.120 them out of the roofs that are keeping them warm 3:07:53.160 --> 3:07:57.680 and dry. And it's just been a really eye opening 3:07:57.800 --> 3:07:59.760 thing for a lot of people, I think, to see 3:08:00.480 --> 3:08:04.560 how our progressive quote unquote establishment here has just fully 3:08:04.640 --> 3:08:07.520 committed to jack boot thuggery, all in the name of 3:08:07.640 --> 3:08:10.040 clearing the streets and making it so that people in 3:08:10.160 --> 3:08:13.800 their kind of four story mixed use of condos can 3:08:14.120 --> 3:08:16.840 can have a beautiful view without having to see the 3:08:16.920 --> 3:08:20.080 poverty that that lifestyle the suff You know, in the summer, 3:08:20.920 --> 3:08:23.520 there were several council at the time, council members who 3:08:23.600 --> 3:08:27.400 committed to UM defunding the police. However, that did not 3:08:27.520 --> 3:08:31.160 come to fruition UM. Since that time, there's been um 3:08:31.560 --> 3:08:35.520 increases in the budget to policing in Minneapolis, no decreases, 3:08:35.680 --> 3:08:39.000 only increases that police haven't been able to spend their 3:08:39.000 --> 3:08:42.039 whole budget, and yet the city continues to pour more 3:08:42.120 --> 3:08:45.439 money into them. And what we're seeing happen is unhoused 3:08:45.560 --> 3:08:48.920 people come together to keep one another safe and also 3:08:48.959 --> 3:08:52.200 so community is able to stay connected with them. And 3:08:52.800 --> 3:08:55.800 you know, we'll be in an encampment and then various 3:08:55.959 --> 3:08:59.119 levels of discovery of government will come in and displace them, 3:08:59.680 --> 3:09:02.040 and and so the people don't have anywhere else to go, 3:09:02.400 --> 3:09:05.119 so they need to move to a new space together. 3:09:05.520 --> 3:09:09.200 So what's happening is not housing. What's happening is not 3:09:09.440 --> 3:09:12.160 even laying a foundation for somebody to be able to 3:09:12.320 --> 3:09:15.800 get the services or support that they may want or need. 3:09:16.160 --> 3:09:20.720 What's happening is displacement. When somebody hears about an eviction 3:09:20.840 --> 3:09:25.920 potentially happening, it becomes a situation that's it's almost it's 3:09:25.920 --> 3:09:29.520 almost kind of magical that people come together and it 3:09:30.360 --> 3:09:34.040 is kind of chaotic, but it always comes together and 3:09:34.200 --> 3:09:36.720 we end up having whether it's people they're doing cop 3:09:36.800 --> 3:09:39.720 watch or are just neighbors, like we had neighbors show 3:09:39.920 --> 3:09:42.120 up on the first day the day that the Corey 3:09:42.240 --> 3:09:45.800 was planned to be evicted on December UM, I can't 3:09:45.840 --> 3:09:48.320 tell you how many different people that just live in 3:09:48.440 --> 3:09:51.720 that area. We're coming up and asking questions, and we're 3:09:51.800 --> 3:09:56.000 appalled at the response from the city because really that 3:09:56.240 --> 3:09:59.680 the Corey encampment was in a space that you could 3:09:59.680 --> 3:10:01.400 barely see it. You wouldn't know it was there. If 3:10:01.400 --> 3:10:04.080 you didn't know it was there, you know, And we're 3:10:04.080 --> 3:10:06.120 talking about by the last day, the day that it 3:10:06.560 --> 3:10:09.880 was evicted, there were eight people there and over a 3:10:09.959 --> 3:10:13.200 hundred and fifty police officers. It was bonkers and that 3:10:13.440 --> 3:10:16.600 extreme response is something that when you see it, you 3:10:16.720 --> 3:10:19.840 can't unsee it. And so we come together in what 3:10:20.080 --> 3:10:21.480 you know, you get in where you fit in, with 3:10:21.600 --> 3:10:24.600 whatever skills you have, whatever gifts you have, whatever time 3:10:24.640 --> 3:10:27.000 you have, you know, and a lot of us show 3:10:27.120 --> 3:10:30.119 up because we are people who have experienced other forms 3:10:30.160 --> 3:10:32.920 of trauma or have seen and experienced other forms of 3:10:32.959 --> 3:10:36.960 oppression too. You can't unsee it once you do. In 3:10:37.040 --> 3:10:40.360 the last few years, mutual aid and autonomous disaster relief 3:10:40.440 --> 3:10:43.800 efforts having formed projects like heat or Block, the squatting 3:10:43.879 --> 3:10:47.160 of land for people displaced by climate change, field fires, 3:10:47.360 --> 3:10:50.080 and the setting up of autonomous warming centers in the 3:10:50.160 --> 3:10:54.400 middle of winter. In the winter of autonomous groups across 3:10:54.520 --> 3:10:58.040 Texas also mobilized when the state's electrical grid failed and 3:10:58.160 --> 3:11:01.760 hundreds of people tragically died the lack of heat. Autonomous 3:11:01.800 --> 3:11:04.800 groups have also worked to directly house people in the 3:11:04.879 --> 3:11:07.720 Los Angeles area. This has looked like houses folks taking 3:11:07.800 --> 3:11:10.760 over homes owned by Caltrans, and various groups in the 3:11:10.840 --> 3:11:14.560 Pacific Northwest, occupying in domaining access to hotels in the 3:11:14.680 --> 3:11:19.240 dead of winter in Philadelphia and housing activists squatted and 3:11:19.320 --> 3:11:22.560 then won the keys to homes for upwards of fifty 3:11:22.680 --> 3:11:25.480 unused families in the midst of the George Floyd Rebellion, 3:11:26.040 --> 3:11:29.600 and there have been other success stories as well. In Boise, Idaho, 3:11:29.840 --> 3:11:33.240 after months of ongoing protests by houses folks and their supporters, 3:11:33.400 --> 3:11:35.560 the city was pushed to green light the building enough 3:11:35.640 --> 3:11:39.400 hundreds of housing units. In Berkeley, California, last summer, people 3:11:39.520 --> 3:11:42.280 once again tore down the fences surrounding people's park and 3:11:42.360 --> 3:11:46.640 destroyed machines, stopping the destruction of the autonomous enclave. Once again. 3:11:47.440 --> 3:11:51.360 In Sacramento, California, households people and their supporters beat back 3:11:51.400 --> 3:11:54.960 in eviction attempt at Camp Resolution, a parking lot which 3:11:55.040 --> 3:11:57.400 is home to people living in their vehicles and r vs. 3:11:57.879 --> 3:12:01.920 Here's two Camp Resolution residents, Sharon and Satara, who speak 3:12:01.959 --> 3:12:05.040 on the deadly impact of sweeps. I think that the 3:12:05.200 --> 3:12:08.920 biggest thing is like being treated inhumanely, you know what 3:12:08.920 --> 3:12:12.119 I mean, or or rudely or like you're an animals. 3:12:12.320 --> 3:12:14.600 They're very mean to people, you know what I mean. 3:12:14.680 --> 3:12:17.360 When they sweep you, they take people's stuff and just 3:12:17.560 --> 3:12:20.080 throw it out, No don't matter if it matters to 3:12:20.200 --> 3:12:22.240 them or you know what I mean, or you know 3:12:22.720 --> 3:12:25.640 which you know creates mental health issues for some people 3:12:25.720 --> 3:12:28.640 because people get traumatized from stuff like that. You know 3:12:28.680 --> 3:12:30.960 what I mean, You just coming in and the only 3:12:31.000 --> 3:12:33.320 place that they have that they can call home or 3:12:33.720 --> 3:12:36.920 a place of shelter. And you know, stormy times like this, 3:12:37.160 --> 3:12:40.800 you know, they come and even now while it's raining, 3:12:40.920 --> 3:12:43.240 and make them move and tell them, you know, they 3:12:43.280 --> 3:12:45.400 gotta go throw their things out or you know what 3:12:45.480 --> 3:12:49.160 I mean, make them leave without whatever they you know 3:12:49.200 --> 3:12:51.960 what I mean, whatever, no matter if it's important to 3:12:52.040 --> 3:12:53.960 them or not, you know what I mean. Like, I 3:12:54.040 --> 3:12:56.440 think that's the most messed up part because like I 3:12:56.560 --> 3:12:58.880 have a friend out here who who lost you know, 3:12:59.160 --> 3:13:01.960 her child ashes, you know what I mean, half the 3:13:02.320 --> 3:13:04.680 half of the people that were at the we lose 3:13:04.720 --> 3:13:06.880 contact with and and every time they sweep that to 3:13:06.879 --> 3:13:10.200 another half. And they're just diminishing people. Where people are good, 3:13:10.240 --> 3:13:14.120 where are people going? They're just disappearing. And before the 3:13:14.280 --> 3:13:18.360 you know, people who do need like other help with 3:13:18.480 --> 3:13:21.000 other things, help things and stuff like that, the harm 3:13:21.040 --> 3:13:23.400 reduction people and stuff like that that come out and 3:13:23.560 --> 3:13:25.840 you know, give people things their needs, you know what 3:13:25.879 --> 3:13:29.400 I mean, they'll they move you around, they can't be found. 3:13:29.640 --> 3:13:33.879 People can die, and people die like that all the time, 3:13:34.680 --> 3:13:37.600 especially you know when they move us around. Sometimes we 3:13:37.640 --> 3:13:39.879 got to go to areas that are not necessarily safe, 3:13:40.000 --> 3:13:42.400 especially the women, you know what I mean, women die 3:13:42.440 --> 3:13:47.560 out here all the time. Separated calf resolution was formed because, uh, 3:13:47.720 --> 3:13:49.960 this lot that we're on, it was part of the 3:13:50.040 --> 3:13:53.560 original sighting plan and they spent six hundred seventeen thousand 3:13:53.600 --> 3:13:55.680 dollars on this for a fence in a parking lot 3:13:56.600 --> 3:13:59.400 and promised folks that they would that they were going 3:13:59.440 --> 3:14:02.920 to get them too little tidy houses or trailers so 3:14:03.080 --> 3:14:05.120 they can get back on their feet and get housing. 3:14:06.000 --> 3:14:08.360 They swept them off the lot as soon as they 3:14:08.400 --> 3:14:10.920 were finished with this. They just came out. They came 3:14:11.000 --> 3:14:13.440 and viciously swept them off of the property the other 3:14:13.480 --> 3:14:16.760 side of the property we're on and could a fence 3:14:16.879 --> 3:14:19.920 up and promised those people and they got nothing, and 3:14:19.959 --> 3:14:22.520 then didn't even bother to contact them or anything, and 3:14:22.640 --> 3:14:25.160 just left those people hanging after they signed up for 3:14:25.240 --> 3:14:28.640 all the services and were denied. And my sister in 3:14:28.720 --> 3:14:31.640 law was one of those people, and she's a quadriplegic 3:14:32.120 --> 3:14:34.640 and she's still waiting for housing, and we weren't gonna 3:14:34.640 --> 3:14:37.439 have another winter of her being down on the countyside 3:14:37.520 --> 3:14:39.800 in the weather, in the water. So that's why we 3:14:39.920 --> 3:14:43.040 started it and if we're here for safety so we 3:14:43.080 --> 3:14:45.200 can get back up on our feet. Were human beings, 3:14:45.400 --> 3:14:48.199 not to mention like half more than half the camp, 3:14:48.440 --> 3:14:51.119 you know, the majority of the camp. There are males 3:14:51.160 --> 3:14:53.000 that I live here, so please don't get me wrong, 3:14:53.080 --> 3:14:55.960 but this is the camp of majority women. You know 3:14:56.000 --> 3:14:58.640 what I mean? Who out here, who live out here? 3:14:58.720 --> 3:15:01.000 And you know, a lot of us know we're homeless, 3:15:01.040 --> 3:15:03.520 but we're not. We're not bumms, you know what I mean. Like, 3:15:03.600 --> 3:15:06.160 we're not um We have regular lives like everyone else. 3:15:06.240 --> 3:15:08.200 We have family, we have friends, you know what. We're like. 3:15:09.000 --> 3:15:10.680 We and we take care of each other, you know 3:15:10.720 --> 3:15:12.600 what I'm saying. Like, and a lot of us have 3:15:12.720 --> 3:15:16.320 been camping right here for the last for years, some 3:15:16.480 --> 3:15:20.200 of us years up against the county, and you know 3:15:20.280 --> 3:15:23.760 what I'm saying. But for every success, sweeps remain a 3:15:23.840 --> 3:15:27.000 daily constant United States, and many attempts to push back 3:15:27.120 --> 3:15:30.120 by houses folks and their supporters are met with extreme 3:15:30.160 --> 3:15:33.280 resistance from law enforcement. So I'm curious what you all think. 3:15:33.720 --> 3:15:36.600 How can communities continue to organize for change in the 3:15:36.720 --> 3:15:39.160 face of his brutality. Something that comes to mind is 3:15:39.200 --> 3:15:41.440 just kind of more of some things that I have 3:15:41.480 --> 3:15:44.880 already been happening basically, UM and I'm thinking of a 3:15:44.959 --> 3:15:49.200 capolic that you brought up. UM And the INCA was 3:15:49.280 --> 3:15:53.000 really interesting to me because UM it was that that's 3:15:53.040 --> 3:15:57.880 a neighborhood in l A. And it grew to maybe 3:15:58.160 --> 3:16:01.600 two to three hundred people living there. UM And as 3:16:01.680 --> 3:16:03.320 it went on, it kind of like a sense of 3:16:03.440 --> 3:16:06.880 community developed pretty strongly there with support from people in 3:16:06.879 --> 3:16:09.880 the neighborhood to UM and people had set up like 3:16:10.040 --> 3:16:14.280 a garden, a community kitchen. They were like meetings, even 3:16:14.440 --> 3:16:17.600 showers near the end. Like. Um, it was actually kind 3:16:17.680 --> 3:16:21.040 of thriving. I it's like doing well, and people are 3:16:21.120 --> 3:16:24.760 like pretty like uh politicized, are like aware of like 3:16:24.920 --> 3:16:26.720 what's going on and talking about it and sharing with 3:16:26.760 --> 3:16:30.240 each other. UM And yeah, people coming together to resist 3:16:30.560 --> 3:16:34.000 sweeps and like threats of sweeps of the park um 3:16:34.640 --> 3:16:37.720 and the response to it was one of the most 3:16:37.800 --> 3:16:41.480 like heavy handed, sort of disproportionate seeming things that I'd 3:16:41.520 --> 3:16:45.120 ever seen, where they had been threatening the city had 3:16:45.120 --> 3:16:46.600 been threatening that they were going to do a sweep, 3:16:46.640 --> 3:16:48.080 and they were saying they were going to get everyone 3:16:48.120 --> 3:16:52.320 into housing. It's like this humanitarian um offer of secure 3:16:52.360 --> 3:16:55.440 housing to people. UM. That they came with like four 3:16:55.560 --> 3:16:58.480 hundred cops and like all the rest of like l 3:16:58.520 --> 3:17:00.440 A p D S four forcing the hell of copters 3:17:00.480 --> 3:17:04.120 and just like everything. They blocked entrances into Echo Park 3:17:04.240 --> 3:17:07.120 to stop supporters coming from out of the neighborhood. UM 3:17:07.400 --> 3:17:12.000 and basically yeah, evicted people, fought with people resisting UM 3:17:12.280 --> 3:17:15.320 and then put a fence up very quickly like during 3:17:15.400 --> 3:17:18.320 this whole thing, UM, and close the park off. And 3:17:18.480 --> 3:17:20.960 that fence is still up, and that's like and then 3:17:21.000 --> 3:17:22.240 what is it now a year and a half or 3:17:22.280 --> 3:17:25.320 something new years that that fence has been up. And 3:17:25.400 --> 3:17:27.920 something I think is like interesting about this example is 3:17:28.120 --> 3:17:30.040 I really think that the reason that response was so 3:17:30.160 --> 3:17:33.280 heavy handed is because the very existence of it was 3:17:33.480 --> 3:17:37.400 disrupting this logic of like rent and landlord de terms 3:17:37.440 --> 3:17:41.000 of like people were reclaiming the comments basically reclaiming public space, 3:17:41.480 --> 3:17:43.720 using it to meet their needs, and this was incredibly 3:17:43.800 --> 3:17:46.320 threatening to the city and they needed to shut it 3:17:46.400 --> 3:17:50.040 down and sort of turn the park back into recreation 3:17:50.120 --> 3:17:53.520 for middle class people. Basically, UM. And I think you 3:17:53.560 --> 3:17:56.440 know what we've talked about already, Like, um, Tom, what 3:17:56.520 --> 3:17:58.520 you were talking about with like enclosure and stuff like 3:17:58.560 --> 3:18:00.960 I really see that these sweeps, this is such a 3:18:01.080 --> 3:18:03.640 just a continuation of this in echo puk um in 3:18:03.680 --> 3:18:05.680 a really big way. And what you were saying more 3:18:05.720 --> 3:18:08.119 about just like what happens when we challenge that logic 3:18:08.280 --> 3:18:10.600 being the most like threatening thing to them, you know, 3:18:10.920 --> 3:18:13.000 just like what happens if it was just like this 3:18:13.120 --> 3:18:15.960 homes camp survives and then another encampment, another encampment, and 3:18:16.040 --> 3:18:19.199 it basically disrupts everything we know about property and rents 3:18:19.240 --> 3:18:23.480 and everything anyway, So I think just more of that, Yeah, 3:18:23.560 --> 3:18:24.960 I mean I would, Yeah, I agree with you. So 3:18:25.040 --> 3:18:26.920 I think it's like more of what's happened Like currently 3:18:26.959 --> 3:18:30.119 New York there's still sweets happening, Like um DTAs Department 3:18:30.200 --> 3:18:33.400 of Homer Services puts up these like UM sweet notices UM. 3:18:33.480 --> 3:18:35.160 And the way it works is that when these two 3:18:35.560 --> 3:18:37.879 twops notices go up, like there's a group of people 3:18:37.879 --> 3:18:39.480 who let each other know that that sweet is about 3:18:39.480 --> 3:18:41.680 to happen. People show up to the people who are 3:18:41.720 --> 3:18:43.880 about to be swept. I hate that word swept. Oh 3:18:43.920 --> 3:18:45.920 my gosh, that's so disgusting. What can we use instead 3:18:45.920 --> 3:18:48.680 of swept um treated badly by evil air adoms? I 3:18:48.680 --> 3:18:50.760 don't know, maybe we could do that. Um but anyway, 3:18:50.840 --> 3:18:53.240 so like, um, so people will go and talk to 3:18:53.280 --> 3:18:54.760 the people who are in the encampment we're going to 3:18:54.800 --> 3:18:56.320 be swept and ask them like what type of support 3:18:56.360 --> 3:18:58.040 would you like, like do you want us to help 3:18:58.120 --> 3:18:59.680 you us move your stuff? Do you want us to 3:18:59.680 --> 3:19:02.040 stand you know when the cops and like so the 3:19:02.120 --> 3:19:05.080 sanitation department comes usually during these cleanups and like throws 3:19:05.080 --> 3:19:08.520 away people's things. And because you know, if you don't 3:19:08.879 --> 3:19:12.320 serve capitalism, your stuff you don't matter. So definitely your 3:19:12.320 --> 3:19:15.000 stuff doesn't matter. One thing that has been happening is 3:19:15.040 --> 3:19:17.120 that people have been showing up for people who are 3:19:17.160 --> 3:19:19.880 about to be have their things thrown out and either 3:19:19.959 --> 3:19:22.440 moving the things for them or supporting them or standing 3:19:22.440 --> 3:19:24.040 in the way from in front of the police, or 3:19:24.120 --> 3:19:26.280 like documenting it. And I think that's like a huge 3:19:26.320 --> 3:19:28.240 way to just like show up right now if you can, 3:19:28.600 --> 3:19:31.119 you sickly block out time on your calendar at work, 3:19:31.240 --> 3:19:33.320 if you know something happening down the street like this 3:19:33.480 --> 3:19:35.240 is like something like you could do now. And I 3:19:35.320 --> 3:19:37.440 think that's really important, Like this is solidarity that we 3:19:37.480 --> 3:19:40.039 should show and which show up for our comrades because 3:19:40.600 --> 3:19:42.720 they are on the ground of fighting for us having 3:19:42.760 --> 3:19:44.680 housing as a human right. Then that's why we should 3:19:44.680 --> 3:19:47.360 show up for them and to support them. Another item 3:19:47.400 --> 3:19:48.560 that I wanted to bring up. I don't know if 3:19:48.600 --> 3:19:51.960 y'all heard about anarchy Rope which happened last year, where 3:19:52.080 --> 3:19:55.640 like s RG was, the Strategic Response Group showed up. 3:19:55.720 --> 3:19:58.920 This is a calendar terrorism group. Y'all showed up to 3:20:00.120 --> 3:20:03.400 get people out of an encampment in Tompkins Square which 3:20:03.440 --> 3:20:05.360 was deemed anarchy roy I think it was like five people. 3:20:05.680 --> 3:20:09.440 Five people brought an SAR or counter terrorism groups. It 3:20:09.560 --> 3:20:12.800 just goes to show you the extent to which like houses, 3:20:12.879 --> 3:20:15.600 people taking up public space is a threat to the 3:20:15.720 --> 3:20:18.440 idea of property as we know. It is a threat 3:20:18.480 --> 3:20:21.480 to capitalist and it's a threat to landlords like Eric Adams. 3:20:21.640 --> 3:20:23.320 Eric Adams is a landlord. I don't know if you 3:20:23.360 --> 3:20:25.080 all know that this the New York the New York 3:20:25.080 --> 3:20:26.840 City mayors, the landlord. If you need to know anything 3:20:27.200 --> 3:20:30.480 as to why they're sweeping homeless people. Landlords run everything, 3:20:30.680 --> 3:20:33.320 and they have rats like Eric Adams because he had 3:20:33.440 --> 3:20:35.120 racks and he was supposed to pay a fine and 3:20:35.160 --> 3:20:37.040 he didn't pay a fine because he's the landlord. I 3:20:37.080 --> 3:20:38.800 guess just going back to that, it's like, yeah, show 3:20:38.879 --> 3:20:40.840 up for people now, Like the need now is like 3:20:40.879 --> 3:20:43.400 onceeps are happening, is for people to show up in 3:20:43.480 --> 3:20:45.560 place with people. And the other part of it, I 3:20:45.640 --> 3:20:47.680 want to say this, and this is a wild idea, 3:20:47.840 --> 3:20:49.520 but I've been thinking about it for a while. What 3:20:49.640 --> 3:20:52.200 if we all stop paying rent? What if we all 3:20:52.280 --> 3:20:54.400 did what if we got together with all our friends 3:20:54.480 --> 3:20:56.160 and stop paying rent? And I know this is wild, 3:20:56.440 --> 3:20:58.720 and I know some people might be like, oh no, Marcella, 3:20:58.720 --> 3:21:00.160 we're gonna get a victim. But what if we aid 3:21:00.200 --> 3:21:02.000 rent and we all thought the cops and they're trying 3:21:02.040 --> 3:21:03.640 to pay us when when when when they're trying to 3:21:03.720 --> 3:21:05.760 evict all of us? So like that's another part of it, 3:21:05.920 --> 3:21:08.120 is like showing up to people's evictions, trying to come 3:21:08.200 --> 3:21:10.039 up together to come up with a long strategy because 3:21:10.240 --> 3:21:12.400 houses people right now are fighting for us to like 3:21:12.520 --> 3:21:14.320 have housing as a human right. We can meet them 3:21:14.360 --> 3:21:15.840 on the other end and s actually, we're not going 3:21:15.920 --> 3:21:17.680 to pay rent as long as you're doing this because 3:21:17.760 --> 3:21:21.000 we're that's like solidarity. When I'm thinking about how to 3:21:22.000 --> 3:21:24.960 resist displacement, you know what, I go back to is 3:21:25.360 --> 3:21:28.520 squatter movements that existed in Europe, right, like the social 3:21:28.600 --> 3:21:31.360 center movements in the seventies and eighties, um, but also 3:21:31.400 --> 3:21:33.760 squatting that happened in the rest Belt in the two thousand's, right, 3:21:33.800 --> 3:21:36.960 And like what was unique about those situations like others 3:21:37.040 --> 3:21:40.640 have have existed obviously, but what was unique about those 3:21:40.640 --> 3:21:43.440 situations is that squatting became about more than just space. 3:21:43.920 --> 3:21:46.600 It also became about autonomy and self defense. Right. So 3:21:46.920 --> 3:21:49.720 in those situations, what would happen is in these rest 3:21:49.800 --> 3:21:52.320 belt squads, people would like lock down a whole street 3:21:52.440 --> 3:21:54.520 and take over a house and then just that was 3:21:54.640 --> 3:21:57.560 just their space, you know, and the cops just couldn't 3:21:57.600 --> 3:22:00.160 get back there or didn't want to get back there, um. 3:22:00.840 --> 3:22:03.480 And some of those squads held out for years, like 3:22:04.120 --> 3:22:06.120 years and years and years um. And we see that 3:22:06.200 --> 3:22:08.520 in Europe too. And so what that does, though, is 3:22:08.560 --> 3:22:12.800 it it accomplishes something really important which I think we 3:22:13.000 --> 3:22:16.560 have to sort of shift in our discussions of this question, 3:22:17.000 --> 3:22:20.400 which is that the question isn't just about housing. The 3:22:20.520 --> 3:22:25.160 questions about space, right and very specifically how we understand space. 3:22:25.400 --> 3:22:28.720 So currently we talked about a neighborhood or when city 3:22:29.080 --> 3:22:31.800 politicians talked about a neighborhood, they don't mean what I 3:22:31.840 --> 3:22:33.440 think a lot of us mean. Like a lot of 3:22:33.600 --> 3:22:36.440 us we talked about our neighborhoods mean like our neighbors, right, 3:22:36.800 --> 3:22:38.959 the people that live around the corner, the old lady 3:22:39.040 --> 3:22:40.760 up the street, the feeds of cats, like whatever it 3:22:40.800 --> 3:22:43.359 happens to be, you know, like you have a community 3:22:43.440 --> 3:22:45.160 that you live in, at least where I live. When 3:22:45.520 --> 3:22:48.440 city politicians talk about a neighborhood, what they mean is 3:22:48.480 --> 3:22:54.000 real estate. They mean this fragmented space of commodified housing 3:22:54.320 --> 3:22:58.360 where individual houses can just be slotted in and slatted out. 3:22:58.480 --> 3:23:00.840 New residents could just be slatted and slatted out, and 3:23:01.280 --> 3:23:04.560 the space becomes reduced down to its physical form, right, 3:23:05.240 --> 3:23:08.360 and within all capitalists understanding some space, that is what happens. 3:23:08.400 --> 3:23:12.320 Space gets reduced down to the commodification of that space, right. 3:23:12.480 --> 3:23:16.279 And so we're talking about that inscription into our spaces. 3:23:16.320 --> 3:23:18.960 You know, I'm saying earlier that doesn't occur without the 3:23:19.000 --> 3:23:23.080 ability to get arrested for trustpassing. And so this becomes 3:23:23.280 --> 3:23:25.560 a fight against the police as much as it's a 3:23:25.640 --> 3:23:28.080 fight against housing, because at the end of the day, 3:23:28.680 --> 3:23:32.720 the enforcements of that structuring of space comes through the 3:23:32.800 --> 3:23:35.640 projection of police force into that space, right, whether that's 3:23:36.080 --> 3:23:39.120 passive things like surveillance, with those active things like sending 3:23:39.160 --> 3:23:41.640 a counter terrorism team to evict five people from a 3:23:41.760 --> 3:23:44.600 park in Manhattan. And so as we're kind of like 3:23:44.879 --> 3:23:49.760 looking through this, we can take some interesting sort of examples. 3:23:49.840 --> 3:23:52.720 I mean, the Paris Commune had a whole discourse that 3:23:52.879 --> 3:23:54.959 talked just about how they were going to rebuild the city, 3:23:55.640 --> 3:23:58.520 Like what is the city going to look like without property? 3:23:58.959 --> 3:24:00.960 How are we going to restart actual our uses space? 3:24:01.160 --> 3:24:04.920 Who gets to decide how to use these big public spaces? Right? 3:24:05.560 --> 3:24:07.600 These were the big discussions that were happening. The Situations 3:24:07.640 --> 3:24:11.440 International had a whole discourse on building conceptual cities and 3:24:11.520 --> 3:24:14.039 avant garde cities, and you know, graffiti was a big 3:24:14.080 --> 3:24:16.200 part of that because what is graffiti. Graffiti is the 3:24:16.280 --> 3:24:20.080 marking of people's presence in space. Why do cities cracked 3:24:20.080 --> 3:24:22.400 down on graffiti so hard every single time? So it 3:24:22.480 --> 3:24:24.480 puts a tag up, that's a gap in police coverage 3:24:24.560 --> 3:24:28.240 is being marked literally every single time. Right, And so 3:24:28.520 --> 3:24:31.360 when we're talking about these questions, we have to push 3:24:31.480 --> 3:24:35.160 this into a question of capitalism in general. But that 3:24:35.280 --> 3:24:37.600 makes it a question of the state. We can't talk 3:24:37.640 --> 3:24:39.920 about capitalism and isolation from that, and so we have 3:24:40.040 --> 3:24:43.880 to really talk about how our spaces are fragmented and 3:24:44.000 --> 3:24:47.440 the ways that things like even encampments or squats or 3:24:47.520 --> 3:24:50.400 things like this that are defended that are able to 3:24:50.480 --> 3:24:53.600 be sort of preserved, isn't the right word, are able 3:24:53.640 --> 3:24:56.720 to maintain their autonomy. Those becomes sort of the models 3:24:56.760 --> 3:24:59.119 of different ways to live in some ways, right, these 3:24:59.200 --> 3:25:02.040 become the places where people are experimenting with different types 3:25:02.120 --> 3:25:05.600 of living, whether it's my choice or not. But these 3:25:05.640 --> 3:25:09.600 are the spaces that get eliminated because of that specific dynamic, 3:25:09.920 --> 3:25:14.560 right that they are fundamentally violating the entire concept of 3:25:14.640 --> 3:25:17.320 property in their very exist and that's why we see 3:25:17.320 --> 3:25:19.480 the crackdowns happening the way that they are. Democrats are 3:25:19.600 --> 3:25:22.760 just as you know, complicit in that as Republicans are. 3:25:22.840 --> 3:25:28.199 It's it's functionally no difference, especially after the George Floyd uprising, 3:25:28.200 --> 3:25:30.279 were you really see in a lot of democratic cities 3:25:30.360 --> 3:25:32.600 them hiring a lot more cops, giving them a lot 3:25:32.680 --> 3:25:34.720 more guns, like doing the same stuff that that happened 3:25:34.720 --> 3:25:37.720 in more conservative cities. Right, The gap is almost non existent. 3:25:37.920 --> 3:25:40.040 That's going to do it for us. Once again. This 3:25:40.160 --> 3:25:42.560 has been the It's Going Down cruise squatting the offices 3:25:42.600 --> 3:25:45.240 of It Could Happen Here. Thanks again for listening and 3:25:45.360 --> 3:25:50.600 we will see you soon. Hey, We'll be back Monday 3:25:50.720 --> 3:25:53.640 with more episodes every week from now until the heat 3:25:53.680 --> 3:25:56.040 death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a 3:25:56.080 --> 3:25:58.959 production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 3:25:59.000 --> 3:26:01.840 Zone Media, visitor website cool zone media dot com, or 3:26:01.920 --> 3:26:04.400 check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:26:04.520 --> 3:26:07.320 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:26:07.360 --> 3:26:09.920 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:26:09.959 --> 3:26:12.680 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.