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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know. This is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey there, listeners, this is

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Speaker 1: producer DJ Daniel. The following episode was recorded before the

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Speaker 1: horrible events in Monterey Park. The team will release an

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Speaker 1: episode addressing the situation once more details have emerged. Thank

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Speaker 1: you and enjoy. It''s Aluter New Years. Yeah, Happy New Years.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's the New Year's Special. It's me Mia,

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Speaker 1: I've got I've got cherin with me. Yeah, how how

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Speaker 1: are you doing? I guess, I guess it's I guess

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Speaker 1: it's not the New Year yet while we're recording it,

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Speaker 1: but it will be by the time you hear this.

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Speaker 1: That counts. That counts. Um. I'm good. I'm I got

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Speaker 1: a cat recently and I call funny. And then I

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Speaker 1: learned later that this year is the Year of the Rabbit.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel really happy about that for this year. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: So I'm good. I'm good. That's a that's that's having

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Speaker 1: new Cat is an amazing way to start any year. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I agree, this was very exciting that. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what else is very exciting? Transitions? They paid me to

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Speaker 1: do this for some reason. Alright, this this this year,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Chinese restaurant syndrome and the

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Speaker 1: whole sort of anti MSG craze. Yes, so that was

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Speaker 1: that's always been so big. I don't know. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in like a I don't know, a diverse area

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Speaker 1: in San Diego, but we would always go to fun

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Speaker 1: like regularly, and the no MSG was like all over

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Speaker 1: the menu and everything. It's like this thing that I mean,

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Speaker 1: every restaurant I went to basically was just like come

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Speaker 1: to us, there's no must. So I'm really curious how

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Speaker 1: it started because growing up I was like, okay, MS trees, Dad,

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Speaker 1: I guess you know what I mean too, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it wasn't It wasn't really, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: as intense where I was growing up, but that was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it was it was a very white suburb.

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Speaker 1: But and people people were still freaked out about MSG.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't but like the the the Asian restaurants

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Speaker 1: didn't like talk about it ever, I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: it was still it was still very sort of like

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Speaker 1: like I remember I would go like eat dinner with

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Speaker 1: like white families and they'd be talking about MSG, and

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Speaker 1: I was like what for a good amount of time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: having now talked about MSG for a bit, we should

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Speaker 1: we should ask like what what is MSG? And the

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Speaker 1: answer okay, So MSG stands from mono sodium glutamate, which

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Speaker 1: is it's just a salt. Basically, it's salt with like

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Speaker 1: glutamate and it has a bunch of your mommy and

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Speaker 1: it I'm gonna read this thing from Kenji from Serious

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Speaker 1: Eats because every every every single article started that starts

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Speaker 1: about this has like this exact paragraph in it. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read it instead of trying to rewrite

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Speaker 1: this paragraph that I wanted to. MSG is a sodium

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Speaker 1: salt of glutamic acid and a amino acid. It was

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Speaker 1: first isolated in nineteen o eight by Japanese biochemist Kakua Ikeda,

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Speaker 1: who was trying to discover what exactly gave Dashi the

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Speaker 1: Japanese flavor broth with comba, Japanese giant sea kelp its

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Speaker 1: strong savory character. Turns out that comba is packed with

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Speaker 1: glutamic acid. It was Akita who coined the term mummmi,

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Speaker 1: which roughly translates a savory to describe to glutamic acid

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Speaker 1: and other seminal similar amino acids. Until that point, scientists

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Speaker 1: had only discovered the other four flavors sensed by the

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Speaker 1: tongue and the soft palate, salty, sweet, sour, and bitter.

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Speaker 1: By nine, pure crystallite MSG extracted from the abundant kelp

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Speaker 1: in the sea around Japan, was being sold under the

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Speaker 1: brand name a gi No Moto roughly Element of Flavor.

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Speaker 1: The company exists to this day. Now keep that in mind,

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Speaker 1: that's going to be important to the last part of

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Speaker 1: the story. But you know, in the meantime, you know,

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Speaker 1: around around around nineteen oweight, once this is discovered, that

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Speaker 1: it turns into this sort of enormous industry. Um here's

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Speaker 1: from a pretty good Men's Health article about it. By

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Speaker 1: the nineteen forties, number of American companies were producing MSG

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Speaker 1: domestically for the consumer, the most famous being accents. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there there's like it's spelled acts. It's it's accent, but

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Speaker 1: it's spelled a c apostrophe C E N T. That's

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Speaker 1: not yeah, no, that's me, yeah said, which was its

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Speaker 1: it's advertising is a bleak place. That's that's a different episode,

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Speaker 1: I think partially, yes, also partially this episode, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: The most famous one being accent, which was advertised as

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Speaker 1: pure mono sodium glutimate. That quote makes food flavors sing.

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Speaker 1: Various food magazines and community cookbooks featured the additive as

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Speaker 1: an ingredient and the likes of fried chicken wings and

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Speaker 1: barbecue sauce recipes. By nineteen sixty nine, fifty eight million

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Speaker 1: pounds of MSG were being produced in the US per year,

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Speaker 1: says Food a Story and Ian Moseby PhD. For an

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Speaker 1: entire generation, the ingredient was presented in a dizzying array

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Speaker 1: of food products breakfast cereals, TV dinners, frozen vegetables, baby food,

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Speaker 1: and soup produced by beloved brands such as Campbells and Swanson,

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Speaker 1: which today offer foods products free of MSG additives. And okay,

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Speaker 1: if you think about this, for a second. It's actually

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Speaker 1: really weird that msg s thought it as a Chinese thing,

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Speaker 1: because like, okay, MSG all told has only been around

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Speaker 1: for like a hundred years, right, It's heavily used in

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Speaker 1: the US for like thirty or forty years. Like it's

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Speaker 1: not in it's not really in China for that much longer.

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Speaker 1: For it is in the US, and it's used in

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Speaker 1: just like a bunch of American food. How didk that start?

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Speaker 1: Do we know how that association started? And continued? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well we'll get it. Most it mostly has to do

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Speaker 1: with like it has to do with restaurants, and it

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Speaker 1: specifically has to do with the part that we're getting

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Speaker 1: to about this letter, which is weird. And I will

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Speaker 1: say like that there are a lot of Chinese families

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Speaker 1: at like just use MSG for like they're cooking. My

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Speaker 1: my house never did it because we're lazy and most

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Speaker 1: of our cooking involves like as few ingredients and prep

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Speaker 1: as possible, so we just like it's also really in uh,

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Speaker 1: Vietnamese food. I feel like uses it a lot too.

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Speaker 1: That's like that was my first association with it, So

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Speaker 1: I just associate because I'm I was, I don't know

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Speaker 1: fourteen I just said, Okay, this is Vietnamese, but that's

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Speaker 1: really interesting to just know, like, well, it's a Japanese too,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean it's Asian. It's yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but like it is just it is just

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting. Like the like people in the U

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Speaker 1: s were just like, I don't know, it's like it's

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Speaker 1: it was in everything. People in the US were also

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Speaker 1: just using it to cook food. This is also a

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Speaker 1: thing that like people in China use a lot too,

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Speaker 1: So it's not that like Chinese people don't do. It's

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Speaker 1: just like everybody, Like the moment everyone got it, they

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Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, this makes our food taste better.

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Speaker 1: Choose more of it. Of course, I'm I'm assuming. Once

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Speaker 1: it got demonized, it was like, oh, this is a

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Speaker 1: Chinese thing, but I don't know for sure. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: will be patient. Yeah so this is this is in

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Speaker 1: fact the next thing. So nobody really cared about it

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Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty eight rolled around. Well so for those

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Speaker 1: sixty years, MSG was like, yeah, I just use it. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm forgetting where I'm going to read apart from this

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Speaker 1: journal article, and I've forgotten to put in what journal

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Speaker 1: is from because I'm a hack and a fraud. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a general natural health sure about that's right

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Speaker 1: to me? Yeah, sure, it's it's from It's from some journal.

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Speaker 1: Some doctors wrote it. Quote. In the spring of nine,

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Speaker 1: Dr Robert Homeman wrote to the New England Journal of

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Speaker 1: Medicine asking the assistance of the journal's readership and invite

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Speaker 1: identifying the source of phenomenon that Dr Goa labeled the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Restaurant Syndrome CRS, numbness of his back and neck, palpitations,

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Speaker 1: and general weakness after he consumed meals in Chinese rest runs.

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Speaker 1: Dr Gua hypothesize that the source of his syndrome might

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Speaker 1: be a reaction to the soy sauce, the cooking wine,

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Speaker 1: the high sodium content of the food, or to the

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Speaker 1: flavor enhancing mono sodium glutamate MSG. Within two months, the

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Speaker 1: journal received a flurry of letters from readers who had

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Speaker 1: noticed a similar phenomenon after eating restaurant prepared Chinese food.

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Speaker 1: So this is the start of this whole thing. And

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Speaker 1: there's one thing I need to point out right away

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Speaker 1: that is in almost every single article about this that

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Speaker 1: is wrong, which is that this this this this article

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Speaker 1: says that he's talking about Chinese food, which is true,

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Speaker 1: but very specifically and this and this is this is

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Speaker 1: going to be very important in about ten minutes. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's gonna be important soon, which is

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Speaker 1: he specifically has a thing about how this is about

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Speaker 1: northern Chinese food mhm. And you know, this is something

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Speaker 1: that is something that everyone everyone sort of misses. The

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Speaker 1: other thing interesting about this is that, you know, he

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Speaker 1: he says it could be MSG, but you know, he's

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Speaker 1: treating MSG exactly like all of the rest of the

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Speaker 1: other stuff that's in this that's in the food. Right,

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Speaker 1: he lists soy sauce, he lists cooking wine. Maybe he's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's too much salt, right, Like, he's not really

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Speaker 1: doing an MSG thing, But everyone who reads this immediately

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Speaker 1: focuses on the MSG. Okay. So before I started researching this,

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Speaker 1: I had heard that this whole letter was actually fake.

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Speaker 1: It was actually a prank. And you know, this is

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Speaker 1: this is a thing that's like it's kind of like okay.

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Speaker 1: So the story behind this was that it was supposed

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Speaker 1: to have been a prank by a white guy named

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Speaker 1: Dr Steele, who made it up as a joke and

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Speaker 1: this is the sort of like a folk like. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this story is not true. The story I am

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Speaker 1: about to say is not true. It turns out this

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Speaker 1: letter is actually real. But there was there was basically

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Speaker 1: a story that went around that it was this guy

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Speaker 1: named Dr Steele who had made it up as a

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Speaker 1: way to get published in a journal for like a bet,

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Speaker 1: because like Dr Steel like claimed responsibility for it, and

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Speaker 1: that got out to researchers. But it turns yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so for a bit everyone was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this whole thing was started by a prank. But it

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Speaker 1: turns out that's also not true. So this American life

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Speaker 1: figured out that Dr Robert Homa is a real guy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Dr Steele had pretended that he said that he made

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Speaker 1: it up the name. It's not true. There's a real guy.

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Speaker 1: They talked to his family and his colleagues and all

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Speaker 1: of them were like, oh, noguad like wrote this thing.

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Speaker 1: And interestingly, there's a lot of racism here too, because

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Speaker 1: Dr Steele had claimed that Homan, which is okay, So

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Speaker 1: this is where things get weird. Um I'm saying cool

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Speaker 1: because that's how you actually pronounce it. Um. It's spelled

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Speaker 1: h O M A N k w okay wha. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so this this is this is some Yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: is a wad Giles bullshit, the previous attempt to sort

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Speaker 1: of romanize Chinese. Just think of Way Giles and it

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Speaker 1: is the band of my existence. It's dogshit. Hi, this

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Speaker 1: is me and post. I made a mistake here. K

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Speaker 1: w okay is actually the standard Cantonese spelling of good.

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Speaker 1: Sorry about that. I am a dipshit who does not

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Speaker 1: speak Cantonese. Yeah, enjoy the rest of the show. They

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Speaker 1: heard someone say go and we're like, this is k

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Speaker 1: w It's like no, no, it's not. Please, So that's bad.

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Speaker 1: It's literally the worst. Like if you if you ever

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Speaker 1: you know, so sometimes if you if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: looking at anything, you'lle something that's just spelled really weirdly,

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Speaker 1: like or for example, like the way that schenkai check

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Speaker 1: is spelled is actually like like it's actually a Way

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Speaker 1: Giles thing like that. There's there's a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: likes that are like that. Yeah, yeah you can find um.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that that's I mean, that explains a lot,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's what and part part of everything that's

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Speaker 1: happening to you here is that like so, and then

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Speaker 1: this is also gonna be important later. KOs is a

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Speaker 1: is a Cantonese last name. Um, but it's it's it

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Speaker 1: gets really really confusing really quickly if you don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going on, because if if, if you're reading, if

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Speaker 1: you're reading a word that's in Chinese in the US,

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Speaker 1: it could either be in Mandarin or in Cantonese, and

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Speaker 1: it also could be either written with the terrible way

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Speaker 1: ales one or it could be in opinion, which is

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Speaker 1: like the one that's actually sort of usable. Um, but

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Speaker 1: Dr Steele because again the way it's written is h

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Speaker 1: O m A and k w o kay and Dr

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Speaker 1: Steele claims that he wrote it to be like human

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Speaker 1: croc of shit like how man kruk Yeah, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: people like people believe yeah, well he's dead, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's so yeah, like this is this is so

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Speaker 1: racist and it's like you know, but this like people

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Speaker 1: people believe this for a while because m yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but okay, so eventually people figure out that

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Speaker 1: it's not true. And I'm going to read something from

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Speaker 1: from this American life piece where they talk about how

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Speaker 1: they figured out that it was actually like that was

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Speaker 1: like actually a real guy. And when you read the

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Speaker 1: original letter, there are details that seem more likely to

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Speaker 1: come from her father was a close father than from Howard.

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Speaker 1: How Howard Steel is the doctor, like when he said

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Speaker 1: he moved to the US, which the real doctor Good did,

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Speaker 1: and how he's very specific the syndrome happens with northern

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Speaker 1: Chinese food in the sixties. How many white guys in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia could have made that distinction? Also, home Man Kool

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Speaker 1: is an actual Cantonese name. What are the odds that

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Speaker 1: dr Steel through together random sounding Chinese syllables to arrive

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Speaker 1: at that? So, Okay, I read that. I had a revelation.

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Speaker 1: I I cracked this case. Why the funk open? I

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Speaker 1: figured it out. I figured out what was going on

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Speaker 1: with this letter. Okay, I'm so excited for this. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna hypen this up for like hours. I'm so exciting.

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Speaker 1: So I'm bts of this. We have like a group

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Speaker 1: chat essentially, and I didn't. I wasn't sure if I

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Speaker 1: can make this recording. But then Mia dropped that that

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Speaker 1: bomb being like I have this big break breakthrough, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta be there. I just gotta

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Speaker 1: be there. And so I kicked James out because James

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Speaker 1: couldn't make me time. I couldn't make it. So here

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Speaker 1: I have I have. I have not told Sharine what

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Speaker 1: the breakthrough this time? Here? Okay? So is Cantonese, right,

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Speaker 1: and she specifies in this letter that this is about

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Speaker 1: northern Chinese food. My thesis right here, right now is

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Speaker 1: that this whole letter it's actually about, It's actually about

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Speaker 1: Cantonese anti Northerland sentiments. This is the whole last thing

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Speaker 1: in China. Canton or like the region that was called Canton.

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Speaker 1: The west is like where Cantonese people are. This is like,

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Speaker 1: this is the very south of China. Right, there is

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Speaker 1: a whole last thing in China. Let like people from

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Speaker 1: the North people from the South hate each other. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's actually very weird. So my my family is like

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Speaker 1: half from the north, half from the South. And like

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Speaker 1: when my mom was growing up, she like she would

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Speaker 1: like get made fun of for how she like rolled

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Speaker 1: dumplings because people were like, oh, you rolled dumplings like

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Speaker 1: a Southerner And she's like, what, it is a whole

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Speaker 1: fucking thing it's like people hate each other. How else

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Speaker 1: how would you know those intricracies, you know what I

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Speaker 1: mean unless you were from there, like had history there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well I mean I was just this is the thing

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Speaker 1: is that that that's persisted in the U s too.

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Speaker 1: You you still you still run into this stuff like

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're like there are definitely like Candidie restaurants

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Speaker 1: were like you probably shouldn't speak Mandarin. They're like there's

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Speaker 1: there's like this is this is still a thing. It's

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Speaker 1: not really talked about very much because it's like it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of an internal Chinese thing. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the one place you actually really gotta see this, You

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Speaker 1: gotta see this from the Hong during the Hong Kong

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Speaker 1: protests in both sides, because like okay, so there there

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Speaker 1: there's a strain of this sort of like like there's

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Speaker 1: a strain of Chinese nationalism that's very sort of like

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Speaker 1: it was doing this like really very sort of like

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Speaker 1: anti Southern racism from you know, you get this from

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Speaker 1: a lot of the Chinese nationalists the CCP side. There's

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Speaker 1: another faction of like the Hong Kong protesters who's like

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Speaker 1: thing was like we're not actually Chinese because we're not

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Speaker 1: like the Northerners who are a communist and like evil,

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Speaker 1: which which is really funny because like you know, like okay,

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Speaker 1: the if you if you run through the actual history

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Speaker 1: of communism in China, it's like, okay, like like one

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Speaker 1: one one of the one of the largest communists like

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Speaker 1: strikes that ever happened was in Hong Kong. Like sure, fine,

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Speaker 1: but you know, but obviously, like I'm simplifying all of

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Speaker 1: this enormously because it's very complicated. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: regional ship that's going on here. Yeah, but so your

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Speaker 1: your thesis is that the person that started all of

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Speaker 1: this was like maybe like from the south or like

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Speaker 1: just like yeah, I mean that is that is definite,

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Speaker 1: Like that is that is like the like that is

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Speaker 1: the most Cantonese asked name I've ever heard, like that

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Speaker 1: that that guy, that guy, that guy is definitely from

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Speaker 1: southern China. And yeah, my my thesis is specifically it's

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Speaker 1: this Cantonese guy going a funk. Those nerds litters, I

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Speaker 1: hate their I hate their asses, I hate their food.

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Speaker 1: Their food at eating it makes me sick. But because

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Speaker 1: because it's the US that the subtlety of this gets

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Speaker 1: lost and everyone just runs with it is like Chinese

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Speaker 1: restaurant syndrome. Even though this is the this is this

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Speaker 1: is my theories, this is this is like this is

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Speaker 1: like kind of semi obscured like Chinese like internal grudge vat.

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Speaker 1: Like like knowing the origin point makes a lot more

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Speaker 1: sense now to be honest, like why would this be

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Speaker 1: some random like why would he specify a region like

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Speaker 1: a very specific region that that's just I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't know that that that that that's my theory. I

329
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Speaker 1: could be wrong about this, but all it fits with

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Speaker 1: all of the details, so it checks out. It checks out,

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Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, So okay, alright, so so this this

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Speaker 1: letter happens and there's like a flurry of letters rather

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Speaker 1: people talking about this, and okay, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about why this got picked up the way it does. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be yeah, this is this is I'm going

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Speaker 1: to read from every single article in this also goes

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Speaker 1: exactly the same way. So I'm gonna read from Men's

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Speaker 1: Health version, so you get this section of it. Before

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Speaker 1: I talked about why it's I think like not sufficient

340
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Speaker 1: to capture what was Happening mostly describes the late fifties

341
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Speaker 1: at a time of heightened anti Chinese sentiment. By the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, domestic and international politics had shifted towards a

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Speaker 1: fairly clear anti communist agenda. In fact, he says, during

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Speaker 1: this time, anti Chinese sentiments were so widespread and accepted

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Speaker 1: that most Americans didn't consider their apprehension to be racial bias. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is true as far as it goes. But we

347
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Speaker 1: need to go to ADS and Wenna come back from ADS.

348
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Speaker 1: I will tell em what else was going on turn

349
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Speaker 1: that week? All right, and we're back. We're back. We're

350
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Speaker 1: talking about how this like letter to like a journal

351
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Speaker 1: in New England suddenly became an entire like national American thing. Okay,

352
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Speaker 1: So the way this happened is that this got picked

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Speaker 1: up by the news. Now there's a huge New York

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Speaker 1: Times article about this, and that article is published on

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Speaker 1: May nineteenth, nineteen. Now, Sharine, do you know what else

356
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: was going on in May? I've heard a lot of

357
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,199
Speaker 1: ship went down in the sixties. Yeah, so this is

358
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Speaker 1: this is right, This is like smack dab in the

359
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Speaker 1: middle of May sixty eight in France. This is this

360
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Speaker 1: is like one week after the Night of the Barricades UM.

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Speaker 1: Three days before this was published, the situationists who are

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Speaker 1: like these this like ultra left student organization who who

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Speaker 1: who at this point are occupying the Sorbonne like they

364
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: have fully taken control of their campus. They have run

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Speaker 1: the cops out, they have run the administration out. UM.

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Speaker 1: Three days before this is published, the students had the sorband,

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Speaker 1: reacting to a factory occupation they heard about, send out

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Speaker 1: this famous communicate calling for the occupation of all factories

369
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Speaker 1: in France. And like it fucking happens, Like the workers

370
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: in France take control of like a huge portion of

371
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Speaker 1: Francis factories, like the Reinault factories are under control of

372
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Speaker 1: the workers UM like by by by this time, like

373
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Speaker 1: this is happening, right the police have like the police

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Speaker 1: are fighting them, but they're losing. UM. Two days before

375
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Speaker 1: this article is published, UH, the Sorban sends this to

376
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Speaker 1: the Chinese consulate quote, shaking your boots, bureaucrats, the international

377
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Speaker 1: power of the workers councils will soon wipe you out.

378
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 1: Humanity won't be happy until the last bureacrat is hung

379
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Speaker 1: with the guts of the last capitalists long live, the

380
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,479
Speaker 1: factory occupations long lived, the Great Chinese Proletarian Revolution evcted

381
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Speaker 1: twenties seven, betrayed by the Stalinist bureaucrats. It goes on

382
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: and on like this. This is what they're sending to

383
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 1: the Maoists, right like that, that is that is how

384
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: far left these people are. Like they they're telling the

385
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 1: Maoist shaking your boot spirit craft, the international power of work,

386
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: those councils will soon wipe you out, like it is

387
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,239
Speaker 1: wild in sense. Yeah, I mean the fact that this

388
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:18,959
Speaker 1: is happening all during all of that, and I don't know,

389
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: that's no, yeah, no one, it's it's really important. I

390
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 1: have never read an article that actually puts this together,

391
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: and it was like, it's not just that going on, right,

392
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: Like you know, if you like the situation in France,

393
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: they are a week and a half out from de Gaul,

394
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 1: who was the president, literally fleeing the country because he's

395
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 1: so convinced that they're about to lose the country to communism.

396
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 1: Like well, and I should say when I say communism,

397
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: by the way, part of that message to the to

398
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: the Maoist is down with the state. Revolutionary Marxisms like

399
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: that that that these are these people are like these

400
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 1: people have are Marxists who have gone like so far

401
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 1: left they've essentially become anarchists. It's it's wild and mean,

402
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: you know. And also what's happened, like the prog Spring

403
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 1: is happening during the middle of this um. This is

404
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 1: also like this is a month after the Holy Week

405
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: uprising in the US, which is so after MLK was killed.

406
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: There were these like probably the most intense riots the

407
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: US has ever seen, like even like even more so

408
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 1: than like the ones we saw in the Holy Week riot.

409
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: Like they were like like there there were there were

410
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 1: like like thousands of paratroopers We're being deployed to like

411
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 1: kill rioters. Yeah, like nuts, Yeah, like that was that

412
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 1: was probably the closest, like some of the closest the

413
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: US has ever had to just like actually having revolution

414
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: in the government, losing control of the entire country and

415
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 1: like and while this article is coming out, like there

416
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 1: are still even in May, the Holy Week up risings

417
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 1: in April, but like even I like even in May,

418
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: there are still people on the streets fighting the cops.

419
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: Like while while this article is being written, and you know,

420
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: if you look at the there's something about perse on

421
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: that entire year. I mean it's wild like six sixty

422
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: like that that that year is just the year like

423
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: the entire world went. I mean there's like like like

424
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: they they I can't remember if they act successfully over

425
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: through the government. They like almost over to the government

426
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: of Pakistan. Like a whole bunch of students get shot

427
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: in Mexico because they were trying to bring down the government.

428
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: Like it's everywhere. There was all this stuff going on. Um.

429
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: And you know, also the ever thing that is happening

430
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: is we're two years into the Culture Revolution and it's

431
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: kind of interesting because but by sixty eight we're kind

432
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: of into the backlash phase of the culture Revolution, where

433
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: most of what's happening is that the sort of various

434
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: rebel factions that formed the nine seven and nine sixty

435
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: six are just getting like slaughtered by the sort of

436
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: like state factions. And it's more it's it's it's a

437
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: culture revolution. It's really complicated, but like bye bye. By

438
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: this point, the sort of like revolution part of it

439
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,959
Speaker 1: has like kind of calmed down and it's more the

440
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: state in its sort of new form taking control. But

441
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: you know, if you're living through this, right, it looks

442
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: like the culture revolutions happens in in in sixty six,

443
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: and then you get six and then suddenly there was

444
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: a cultural revolution happening literally everywhere. And this is the

445
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,239
Speaker 1: context of the MSG scared like kicks off in right.

446
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: It starts in like right in the middle of arguably

447
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: the two most radical months of the entire twentieth century. Wow. Yeah,

448
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: And and this is this is the kind of ship

449
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: that starts like just an absolute mania in the American

450
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: mind that is powerful enough that like sixty years later,

451
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: it's still around. I mean, it feels like the it

452
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: happening as such like a manic time, like people were

453
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: probably already like kind of feeling that energy. Right, it

454
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: was like like everything it was directed everywhere, even at

455
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: this article. Yeah. And I genuinely think if if this

456
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: had happened two months later, two months earlier, I don't

457
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: think I don't think there would have been like a

458
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: big scare about it. Like it might have been a

459
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: thing I stuck around for a bit. But I think

460
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: the fact that the end of the the New York Times

461
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: article happen came out exactly like in the middle of

462
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: May sixty eight, and that like the original one comes

463
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: out like right before the like the original article that

464
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: gets set to the thing comes out like a couple

465
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: of weeks before the Holy Week up Rising. I think

466
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: it was the fact that it was exactly in this

467
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: moment where everyone on Earth is if you're living through this,

468
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: like this is the capital our revolution like has come

469
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: and you know, and that that shattered everyone's brains. Like

470
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: I don't know, I want like do people remember what

471
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: it was like like when like when like the height

472
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: of twenty was happening, Like just how sort of wild

473
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: like there was just psychologically I'm telling you there was

474
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: like an energy. Yeah, yeah, that's collective strange. I mean,

475
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: like obviously it's different than it was at sixty eight,

476
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: but I really do agree with you, like if it

477
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: happened in January, yeah, and you know, I so. The

478
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: the other thing that's interesting about about this whole sort

479
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: of like Chinese restaurant syndrome is that you could actually

480
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: track it spread like across other countries by sort of

481
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: like moments of like heak anti Chinese like sentiment. It

482
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: also anti Japanese sentiment to a lesser extent, because that

483
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: that that sort of replaces the anti Chinese stuff by

484
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: time and nineties, but well not replaces. But it's like

485
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: it's like the dominant mode of like we have a

486
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: person we needs to be afraid of an East Asia. Um.

487
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: But there's interesting, okay, So if if if, if you,

488
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: if you look up um like he was looking for you,

489
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: like medical stuff about Chinese restaurant syndimeme. One of the

490
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: things you will find is a case report of the

491
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: Indian Journal of Critical Medical Care from two thousands seventeen

492
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: claiming that they were treating a patient who got Chinese

493
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: restaurant syndrome and like couldn't speak because the thing in

494
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: the back of his throat had like inflamed, and you know,

495
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: and then they had this whole thing about like this

496
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: this is like this is like a serious disorder, and

497
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: they beifically cited that letter to the editor from sixty

498
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: eight the power of that thing. And you know, well, okay,

499
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: so if you look what what was going on in

500
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: in India in two thousand seventeen, and it turns out

501
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: the thing that's going on is like a giant rise

502
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: in anti Chinese sentiment, culminating in the twenty seventeen Indian

503
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: Chinese Border incidents. Where do you remember when all those

504
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: guys are like beating each other to death in the

505
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: mountains with sticks. Yeah, I do remember that. I's so

506
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: sad and many times in my life, and especially post pandemic,

507
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: my brain is broken. But I do vaguely remember that

508
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: I had kind of forgotten about it. And then and

509
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: then I just look at this article and sol seen.

510
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, hold on, hold on, wasn't that

511
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: wasn't didn't didn't that happen in twenty seventeen? And it's

512
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: funny because like, yeah, right, CenTra rise again, suddenly Chinese

513
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: restaurant center reappears. It's it's really, it's really incredible. It's

514
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's an incredible set of brain worms. Um.

515
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: I just I mean, this is definitely not on topic,

516
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: I guess, but even just seeing like COVID being blamed

517
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: on China, like there's almost like like a way for

518
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: ignorant people just to point the finger at China, which

519
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: is really fucking shitty. It's so shitty. It's yeah, I mean,

520
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: I think it's it's just sort of like like one

521
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: of the things you sort of need to have a

522
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: national project, is that in order for you to be.

523
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: In order for you to be like a nation, you

524
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: have to have you have to have another you have

525
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: to have people who aren't part of the nation, and

526
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: the US is prett effectively they have they you know,

527
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: they can have the sort of rotating cast of people

528
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: who like aren't like from the nation. Right, if you

529
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: want to stay in, there are people that need to

530
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: stay out. Yeah, So sometimes it's with Mexico. Sometimes sometimes

531
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: you get it with sort of like like internal subversion

532
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: from like black people are like indienous people. But yeah,

533
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, they have this rotating cast. China is always

534
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: one of the ones that come back to because it's

535
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: just big and there's a lot of them, and you know,

536
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: people are easily feared by it. Like I think it's

537
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: like it's unknown and maybe people don't understand it very well,

538
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: that don't look into it themselves and wanted to be educated.

539
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: But forever reason, people fear it so easily, and it's

540
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: so bizarre. It's so bizarre. Yeah, it sucks. Oh yeah, Okay,

541
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna do an ad break and then we're

542
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: gonna talk about more of this stuff because it keeps

543
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: going and we're back, all right. So obviously we're dealing

544
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: with sort of anti Chinese sentiment and anti Japanese sentiments

545
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: as you know, jes sentiment escalating as the safety surting

546
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: into like the eighties and nineties. But there's more going

547
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: on here. Um. Part of the reason, you know, back

548
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: like this in theory could have been about like soy sauce, right, Like,

549
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that they could have picked

550
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: out of that to be the thing about, but they

551
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: picked M. S. G. And part of the reason they

552
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: picked MSGS that this is the period when people start

553
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: like figuring out that food additives exist mm hmmm, and

554
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: people don't get really sort of touchy about it. And

555
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: actually Ralph Nader uh famous. Yeah, so he's around in

556
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: the sixties, Um, because he's old as ship. Yeah yeah,

557
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: I mean he's you know, okay, so I I give

558
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: I give him credit for for like he has probably

559
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: saved as many lives as like any other American, single

560
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: American you can name, by being the guy who like

561
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: lobbied to have seatbelts in cars being mandatory. I think

562
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: that was not before because the US is a like

563
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: truly deranged country. Yeah, he wasn't half bad most of

564
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, but but come on, he's also one

565
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: of the guys who's like the big pusher for getting

566
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: the US government to study MSG and a lot of

567
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: other food editives and like nine, so you know, and

568
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: like there's a bunch of other food aims that they're

569
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: studying the health effects of and and on the one hand, like, yeah,

570
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: it probably is good to study the effects of like

571
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: food editives because like I don't know, companies do stuff

572
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: that sucks all the time, and so it is good

573
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: to study within your food. On the other hand, Okay,

574
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: it's gonna sound really ignorant, so I apologize. What where

575
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: again you already said this? Where was that foul? Where

576
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 1: was MSG found? Is it created in a lab? Like

577
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: what's the Yeah, but by this point it's basically created

578
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: a lab. The first time someone was able to distill

579
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: it was they did this whole distillation process of seaweed seed. Yeah.

580
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: But but but by this point, it's no worries. Yeah,

581
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: I know, like by bye bye bye, I mean even

582
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: by like the early actually twenties, I think it's it's

583
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: mostly being produced artificially, which is probably but it's yeah, yeah,

584
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: and it makes it taste better. But like, like you

585
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: know it is something that like you like you can't

586
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: find it like in in dashi, Like you can find

587
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: it in like soup broths and stuff like from the

588
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: way from seaweed. So it's it's not like I didn't

589
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: know that. I've known about MSG for most of my

590
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: life and I never like, for whatever reason, growing up,

591
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: we always associated with sodium like salt salty. Yeah, well,

592
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: I mean it is right, like it is a kind

593
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: of salt. Yeah, but like I don't know, like people

594
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: people have this whole thing like oh, it's artificial. It's

595
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: like like yeah, we may kid artificially, but like it's not.

596
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not a thing that you can

597
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: get out of plants. It's just that we don't do

598
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: it that way because it's easier. Yeah, the source of

599
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: it is the artificial. But also like you're gonna be

600
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: a stickler on this one thing when you eat, like

601
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, so many other drink so many other things,

602
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: Like there was cocaine and coke. Yeah, it's I think

603
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: every every every every every American like in nineteen sixty

604
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: nine is like by by their body volume, drinking two

605
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: pounds of lead a year. So like it's like like

606
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: this is the thing you're gonna stick up. Yeah, well

607
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: and and you know, and this is this is this

608
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: is this is sort of the problem with with what

609
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: Ralph Nader is doing with this sort of like pushing

610
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: the government investigation of it is that like you know,

611
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,239
Speaker 1: like I don't know how racist nine nine Ralph Nader was.

612
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: My My guess is that I don't think that his

613
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: big thing was we need to study this because it's

614
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: the dirty Chinese like salt or whatever. I I think

615
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: I think mostly just wanted to you wanted the thing

616
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: to study food editives. I could be wrong about that.

617
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't I've looked into this exactly

618
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: zero percent. But like you know, the problem is that

619
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: like once this sort of racial panic is going, like

620
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: you can't put you can't put the sort of cork

621
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: back in the bottle, right and you know, Okay, so

622
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: there have been a bunch of studies about this um

623
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: and like but but you know, okay, so the problem

624
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: with what's happening is that because of the way ms

625
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: she has been sort of racialized, like the studies don't matter,

626
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,719
Speaker 1: like it's it just does not matter what anyone actually

627
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: sort of writes about it until you get an actual

628
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: cultural change because the study science is irrelevant. Um, they

629
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: have the study to justify a bunch of things, and

630
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: that's the only study they care about. Yeah, it's it's

631
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: it's it's like the like vector, that's like the like

632
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: the fake factory of vaccines cause autism ship Like no,

633
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: it's they just believe this. They have one paper that's

634
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: literally a joke. Exactly does it? Yeah, that's like but

635
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: this event, but like yeah, there's a million others like that.

636
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: By the way, that study, I want to point this out.

637
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: The methodology of that study was they asked parents who

638
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: thought their kids had developed autism because of the vaccine

639
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: if they thought their kids had developed autism because of

640
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,919
Speaker 1: the vaccine, and then the parents said yes, And that's

641
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: the study. That's the study. Yeah, that's a lot of study.

642
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: It's a joke, like it's it's literally a Twitter pool.

643
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: They like got published and they're attracted because al right,

644
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: like this this is the scientific basis of all this bullshit,

645
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: and that's what qualifies is a fucking study. Then you

646
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: could you could, I don't know, you can. You can

647
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: publish fucking anything if you put your mind to it.

648
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: This is this. This, This is what I'm telling all

649
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: of you, like follow your dreams, try to get something published.

650
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: They published this bullshit, so like you know, I'm gonna

651
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a study. Yeah, well the other thing,

652
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: the other thing specifically, like there's a real problem here

653
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: with like this is everything with medical studies, because like

654
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: you can have a medical study that you get published

655
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: with a sample size of one because it's you found

656
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: a thing and a guy and you're like, oh, I'm

657
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: gonna publis this, but you like medical studies, like you

658
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: could just like you could publish any bullshit and like

659
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: it sucks. But okay, so all right, like lots of

660
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: so after this, there are lots of studies by lots

661
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: of people, and like mostly what they find is they

662
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: can't find any Okay. So there's some like initial studies

663
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: that like find some alarming stuff in mice. But the

664
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: problem with these studies that what they're doing is okay, Yeah,

665
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: it turns out if you take a mouse and you

666
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: just like fill a syringe with MSG and inject them

667
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 1: with it, it's bad for them. But like yeah, yeah,

668
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: you would you injected a mouse with pure salt and

669
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: bad things happen, Like yes, if you took a human

670
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: being and you injected fucking a third of a cup

671
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: of MSG directly into their veins, it would probably be

672
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: bad for them, like okay, you know, right, um, And

673
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: that they found out. The conclusion from that was basically like, okay,

674
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: if someone ate like a third of a cup of

675
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: MSG raw having not eaten for like forty eight hours,

676
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: it would probably do things that are not great for you.

677
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: Can't you say that. I've had a bunch of other

678
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: like like like I don't know if if if you

679
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: didn't eat for twenty four hours and eight a third

680
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: or a couple of salts, like that's probably that's not

681
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: good for you. Like I don't do that, so like

682
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: you know, okay, very very specific circumstances have to light

683
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: it up for you to have reaction. So there's a

684
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: study from two thousands where they also this is also

685
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: another empty stomach study, by the way, because they've okay,

686
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: no one has ever been able to replicate like any

687
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: of these results with a person eating food that has

688
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: MSG in it. They've every been able to do it.

689
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: They've been able to get some results. If you have

690
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: people eat like basically pure MSG and have not eaten

691
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: any food like around it. Yeah, it's like you're, OK,

692
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: that's useless because the the molecule at that point it

693
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: probably interacts with other things and that's you know what

694
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: I mean, Like if it's just I'm not the act

695
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: will I don't know. Yeah, I'm a very good at chemistry,

696
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna what the chemistry nerds arguing I did

697
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: fail a p chem so great, Yeah, I I look

698
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: how I only had to take chemistry in so I

699
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: just didn't take a p KEM because like I suck,

700
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: Like I took a CHM like my first my freshman year.

701
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: Now it's like, let's not do this again. I can't

702
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: do this. Just the thing. I wanted to be a

703
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: psychiatrist for a really long time. But failing AP chemistry

704
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: and just experiencing chemistry, I was like, I can't. Yeah,

705
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: it sucks. It's the worst, but okay. So the reason

706
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: I was talking about the vaccines cause as like autism

707
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: ship is that there was another thing with MSG where

708
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: people were claiming it was causing asthma and it no,

709
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: they had they had another looking incredibly elaborate pseudoscience bullshit

710
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: about like the MSG like getting absorbed, like getting absorbed

711
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: improperly through like like fetal membranes. That's like completely nonsense,

712
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't. Yeah, people people like what what White

713
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: people love to say that the diseases they've gotten from

714
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: fucking the fact that like they're they're the air in

715
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: their house is n c O two by volume and

716
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: like and and could because because they've decided to run

717
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: an entire country by just putting fucking trucking yards everywhere,

718
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: like okay, a finger to point out right, it can't

719
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: be Yeah, you know you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

720
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: I should. I should make this clear. By the way,

721
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: when when I when I when I when when when

722
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: I say when I say that like autisms, I'm not sorry.

723
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: When when I say that asthma specifically is when I'm

724
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: talking about the bad air specifically talking about asthma, I'm

725
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: not talking about autism with that that that that is

726
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: not what causes autism or whatever, like and it's cool

727
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: and also funk autism speaks, yes, yeah, but yeah, I

728
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: want to put that on the record. That's what I mean.

729
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not saying that trucks cause autism. They

730
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: don't like yeah, yeah, so okay, but there's a lot

731
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: of like incredibly weird, racial, very dumb, anti scientific panic

732
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: about it. It's possible that there existed so ofvisually it

733
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: was about like like anyone who eats this will have

734
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: these sentiments, right, And then over time the argument got

735
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: sort of fizz down to there might be a group

736
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: of people who in the population, like a small group

737
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: people who are like specifically sensitive to it, and that's

738
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: probably plausible, Like there's some experimental evidence that shows that

739
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: there could be a group of people for whom they're

740
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: more sensitive to it than a regular person and I

741
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: don't know, people of allergies like whatever, like yeah, yeah, yeah,

742
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: Like it's not like like yeah, it's it's not a

743
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: thing to sort of like like yeah, I don't know,

744
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: like if you're a person who gets allergy reactions to ship,

745
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: like yeah, that's allergies, right, but like it's it's not

746
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: the sort of like I don't know if the panic

747
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: about it is utterly unjustified. There may be if there

748
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: may be a group of people who it has some

749
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: effect on because there are a lerger to it or whatever.

750
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, imagine imagine demonizing peanuts because there's a group

751
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: of people that can't eat peanuts, you know what I mean,

752
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: Like that's that's that's why, like, why would you ever

753
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: do that. To be fair, I I am okay with

754
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 1: demonizing peanuts specifically, specifically if it gets people to stop

755
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: fucking were shipping that bastard Jimmy Carter, who was a

756
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: neoliberal ghoul, and his reputation has been fucking just like, like,

757
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: his reputation has been saved entirely by the fact that

758
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: every single person who came after him was an utterly

759
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: deranged war criminal and his war crime was like suppressing

760
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: well he was a peanut farmer. Oh sorry, sorry, this

761
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: is this is this is this is the this is

762
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: this is the the deep Jimmy Carter lore. Okay, yeah, okay,

763
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: but you know, all right, So going going back, I

764
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: think so this was the kind of thing that like,

765
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: you know, people avoiding msg is just kind of had

766
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: just kind of been like like a part of daily life,

767
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: Like it was just like a thing that existed in

768
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 1: the world, but it wasn't like at a certain point

769
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: it became the kind of thing that people would talk

770
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: about like in conversation, and like they did you know,

771
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 1: you could just get people to do ant MSG rans,

772
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 1: but it wasn't really a sort of like mainstream political

773
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: issue in the way that it had been like in

774
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: that st nine where the well, the only thing that

775
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: happened is in the nineties the FDA did to study

776
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: about it. The f d A was like, it's fine,

777
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: don't don't don't eat three d grams of it at

778
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: one time, Like, but as long as long as you're

779
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: not sitting there like eating MSG raw out of the

780
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: fucking Like do you think about like hyd syrup? Why? Yeah,

781
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: and like by by volume, hypric dose, chord and syrup

782
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 1: was killed way more people than although also now now

783
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: there's like a whole thing about like MSG causing obesity,

784
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: which I I don't know if that's true or not.

785
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: I think their studies are fucking whack, but you know

786
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: it's it's it might cause obesity like every other food

787
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,479
Speaker 1: that the US has made in the last twenty years. Yeah, yeah,

788
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: and what what what one one day we will do

789
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: a episode about like the politics of anti fatnists because

790
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: it's fucked but today we're we're doing this episode and okay,

791
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: so you know, every once in a while, the way

792
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: the way of this stuff work. Every once in a

793
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: while there would be a sort of like like a

794
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: mainstream like Asian American figure who would talk about it.

795
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: For example, there's there's there's a Korean chef named David

796
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: Chang who talks about it um and he he did

797
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: some like he gave speeches about it and the start

798
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: demonization of it, but it didn't really get back to

799
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: mainshame discourse until when are Good Friends a Ginomoto. The

800
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: people who made the stuff in the first place hired

801
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: a bunch of Asian American like celebrities to do a

802
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: pro MSG campaign. So they hired Eddie Huongg who's like

803
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: a writer and chef who's like probably most famous for

804
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: being the guy who wrote Fresh off the Boat, And

805
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: so that they have this whole sort of campaign and

806
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: this like takes off right like he he this is

807
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: this is one of those things that was like completely

808
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: forgotten that happened in that no one now remembers, because

809
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: this happens like before COVID, like before we had the

810
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: lockdowns and before I'll be honest, it escapes my memory.

811
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: I I have no member this happening either. But apparently

812
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: it did. I don't know. I was I think this

813
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: is still well the I think this is well the

814
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: election was still going on, so yeah, the best time

815
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: to do that year everything happens. But okay, so you know,

816
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 1: this campaign like takes off like like ny Hwang's on

817
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: on NBC and to be like the talk show circuit

818
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: with Jenny Am advocating for like so that their whole

819
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: thing is that they wanted to remove Chinese restaurants sent

820
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: from the dictionary and they had this whole like hashtag

821
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: redefinance CRS is like the Redefining Chinese Restaurant syndrome and

822
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: this is like a whole thing, and you know, and

823
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: there's there's there's something okay, but this was one of

824
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: the things that sort of drew me to the story

825
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: because if you look at the press for this, right,

826
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: it's like activists pressure maryon Webster and like that's kind

827
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: of true, Like it's superficially it is kind of what happened,

828
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, I'm glad the dictionary change the entry

829
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: to say like this is like outdated and kind of bullshit,

830
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: but like, okay, think about what actually happened here, right,

831
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: A company that makes a product hired a bunch of

832
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of sort of Asian American like big celebrity

833
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: people to do a marketing campaign for them in the

834
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 1: name of anti racism, which like, yes, I I am

835
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: glad we are addressing the racism in our own MSG.

836
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: However common I feel like it's a really sort of

837
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: like it's a it's a really literal example of the

838
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: kind of like vopidity and listlessness of like Asian American

839
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: identity and culture and politics like pre COVID, like this

840
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: is this is this is this hands something like early January, right,

841
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: so COVID is still sort of like some disease in China,

842
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: Like we haven't hit full of racism yet. And again

843
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: like this is not like an activist campaign, you know,

844
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like activists get on board with it, I guess,

845
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: but like activism is doing an ad campaign for a

846
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: company that makes salt right. Yeah, it's not exactly grassroots

847
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: or yea, and and you know, okay, and it works

848
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: right like this this is a thing that like the

849
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: Asian American community like picks up right, I mean sort of.

850
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I don't remember it, but I

851
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: when I look looking looking back on the articles and

852
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 1: hashtags and stuff. It's like, wow, they got lots of tweets.

853
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: But you know, I I think I think the reason

854
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: that this worked is is because of the sort of

855
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: self conception of like Asian American nous. Is this like

856
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: backstory of like like immigrants stepping off the boat and

857
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: they start a restaurant and then your kids get an

858
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: education to the answer of the professional class and like

859
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: there isn't I don't know, like this is in fact,

860
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: this is literally like part of the reason I'm doing

861
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: is also like this is literally what happened to my family.

862
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: Like they like they showed up from Taiwan, they worked

863
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: in a restaurant, then they opened a restaurant, and then

864
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like every successive generation, well okay,

865
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: I was gonna say every every successive generation got more

866
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: like professionally, but like I have a bunch of talktors something.

867
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: But but then they also produced me, who's a podcaster.

868
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: So I'm defying Asian American stereotypes bite being more dipship

869
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: than my parents. But you know, like this has become

870
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: like this single sort of cultural narrative of like what

871
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: it is to be in Asian American, right, Like, you

872
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: see this in every single story that Asian American media

873
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: like has produced in the last like ten years, it

874
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: has one plot. Right, There's a family in the US.

875
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: They're trying to fit in. They almost always have some

876
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: kind of small business, and then something appears that challenges

877
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: their ability to like assimilate into American society. This is

878
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: and then you know they deal with it and that's

879
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: the end. Right, This is a plot of crazy rich

880
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: Asians a pot of everything ever all at once. The

881
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: plot of Fresh Out the Boat is the pout of

882
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: the fucking c W Kung Fu show. It is the plot.

883
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: Like literally everything that like we produce has one plot,

884
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: and it's this. And the reason why is it's you know,

885
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: there's the reason why this is the only sort of

886
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 1: like piece of media that that the sort of Asian

887
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: American culture class have been able to produce. Is the

888
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: reason why all the fucking activism and ad campaigns are

889
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: just like, fucking we got hired by a company and

890
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about where racism racism is bad about

891
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: this company can sell more product. Like, the reason is

892
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: this is because this is an incredibly marketable self conception

893
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: of Asian American nous like that the conception of it

894
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: as being restaurant owners is there because it's it's it's

895
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: a form of culture that can be sold to white people, right. It's, hey,

896
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: look we're different, we eat wacky food, but you can

897
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: eat it too, And ultimately we're all in this for

898
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 1: capitalism in the patriarchal family, like just like you are.

899
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: Don't worry, It's gonna be fine. And you know that

900
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: that really depresses me because this this is a moment

901
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,479
Speaker 1: that demands something else. And I think that's why kind

902
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: of like I think that's why the sort of mainstream

903
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: like Asian American reaction to like, you know, like that

904
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: there was there was another there was another Asian woman

905
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: like who got stabbed to death like two weeks ago,

906
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: and there was like fucking no coverage of it, Like

907
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: nobody gave a ship. It's just gotten to the point

908
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: where like this happens, like six people report on it

909
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: and then everyone just sort of moves onto their life. Yeah,

910
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: And I think the reason why this sort of like

911
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: stop Asian hate ship has gotten to a you know,

912
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: like it's gotten it gets gone through the sign cycle

913
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: where everyone like had the signs up and then they

914
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: took them down, and so you know, like and I

915
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: think the reason why it was it turned into this

916
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: sort of like like did the organizing turning this like

917
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: incredibly vapid like put a sign in your store like

918
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: two to hashtag stuff like is because of this is

919
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: is because what like what what it means to be

920
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: sort of Asian American has been hollowed out and hauled

921
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: out and hold out and sold and sold and sold

922
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: for just decades and decades and decades, and now, you know,

923
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: like in a time when it's actually sort of like

924
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: you know, when it when it's really in danger and

925
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: it's called to action, it hasn't been able to do

926
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: much right. And well, yeah, pointing out the film and

927
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: TV thing is really important because I mean, so many

928
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: marginalized communities have this experience. But I think China, like

929
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: Asian culture in particular, I think it really people if

930
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: they're ignorant and they just see what's depicted on media,

931
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: they don't see them as three dimensional beings, you know

932
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: what I mean, what they have is like a very

933
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: hollow version of a human and so I don't know,

934
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 1: it's it kind of upsets me because I feel like

935
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: media is the first thing people learn things from, whether

936
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: it's film or TV or whatever. But yeah, well and

937
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: also I think it's I think it's part of the

938
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: reason why, like the way that those those depictions sort

939
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: of obscure class where you know, because these things, right,

940
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: like a lot of these families are poor, but they're

941
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: still business owner, right and that that's like like if

942
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: you're a poor American as well, it's because you're a

943
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: business and you're like a sort of struggling like American entrepreneur.

944
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: And this obscure is the fact that there there is

945
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: a massive Asian American just underclass people who are like

946
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: delivery drivers or work in warehouses or you know, I

947
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: mean like they're they're there. Who could there are groups

948
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: of people who like come to the US from China,

949
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: who you know, like live in like basically completely isolated

950
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: communities in part of Chinatown where they're only speaking Chinese

951
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: and they just sucking. Like there are people who have

952
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: to do a bunch of like warehouse ship and then

953
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 1: they leave and that's it, right, like, and these these

954
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: people this ship never you like, you never actually get

955
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: any kind of sort of class analysis because the way

956
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: that media thinks about Asian Americans is like there's there's

957
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: one of they're either one or three things. They're a

958
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: business owner, they're like a rich professionals like a doctor

959
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: or something, or they're like the fucking people on Blink

960
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: where they're just like super rich assholes. And that that

961
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: allows I think, like a specific kind of anti Asian

962
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: politics to work that like Asian people are seen this

963
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: sort of like perpetual like for an elite, and it's

964
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: like no, I don't know, like it's it's just not

965
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not true and and it and

966
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: it means that when you get like Asian American political movements,

967
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: like the sort of stuff antiation hating, right, like you

968
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: have like the guy who founded door Dash, right is

969
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: like is a nation is like a Chinese American guy, right,

970
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: He's like he used to he's a tech billionaire. He

971
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: used to be like an emany Like you know, you

972
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: would have the stop Asian hate advance, Like this fucking

973
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: guy is on their light, is up on the stage

974
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: talking about anti agent hate and it's like, Okay, this

975
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: guy has like brutally and horribly exploited like literally millions

976
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: of Asian Americans. But you know, there's there's there's there's

977
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: no there's never gonna be reckoning with that because success

978
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: and he's he's capitalist, like he's achieved the capitalist dream

979
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,439
Speaker 1: or whatever. The ship and and I I mean because

980
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: because because Asian American contentia has been flattened in this way,

981
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: like those people are just completely invisible and it it

982
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: sucks and I hate it and yeah, yeah, I it's

983
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: just I don't know, there's nothing good. I can like

984
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: anything I can say to make anything better. But I

985
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: think it's just I don't know. Maybe we can do

986
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: an episode one day about like film and TV and stuff,

987
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: because I think it really starts there unfortunately, like like

988
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: it's it's silly, but people that don't know a Chinese

989
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: person will see a Chinese person on their TV and

990
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: be like, that's the only Chinese person I've ever seen

991
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: in my life. And I'm gonna make assumptions about the

992
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: whole race now. But one day I'm gonna do an

993
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: We're gonna do an episode that's entirely me shipping on

994
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: Jackie Chan. People are gonna get really mad at me.

995
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: But funk that guy, that's a hot take. He started

996
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: his career as a fucking scamp. That was literally his

997
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: first thing was he was a scap. And he's yeah,

998
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: he's the fucking homophote piece of shit. Fuck him. Uh yeah,

999
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: done your reparable damage for this episode. Let's do it. Yeah,

1000
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: all right? That that will that will be something we

1001
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: are We are now to the part of the episode

1002
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: where we are teasing you with subsequent episode. But yeah,

1003
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know, And it's a little bit

1004
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: upsetting how these are really important movements are just like

1005
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: they the plateau and they become like this vapid thing

1006
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 1: like you're saying, Like, I think that gives people such

1007
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: an easy out of like quote unquote being an ally

1008
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: or supporting because they think they're doing something by like

1009
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: holding up a sign or something without really internalizing or

1010
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: spreading the awareness that is necessary. And uh, I don't know.

1011
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: I I guess the thing I want to end on

1012
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: also is me being piste off at a bunch of

1013
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: Asian American kids in the saets. So one of the

1014
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: stories you will hear a lot if you're studying Asian

1015
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: American politics, like is the story that, like the term

1016
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: Asian American was invented by these like activists who actually

1017
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: were like doing a bunch of stuff eight um, these

1018
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: like student active like this radical student activists, and that's true.

1019
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: But the thing you have to understand about those people

1020
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: is that all of those people were like like all

1021
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: those people were basically like, we're third world ists. And

1022
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: part of the reason this whole politics collapses, well a

1023
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: part of the reason part of what happened was like

1024
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: part of the demands of these students in these sort

1025
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: of like radical student groups like but you know, the

1026
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: their form to sort of like support the sort of

1027
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: like black radical student groups into like advocate for themselves.

1028
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: But like one of their big demands was they wanted

1029
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: cultural studies departments in in American universities, and they got them.

1030
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: But you know, okay, so what what what what are

1031
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: those cultural studies like departments? They basically just became these

1032
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: giant traps through radicals where instead of like overthrowing the government,

1033
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: you like come do this cushy job in academia, and

1034
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: like all of all of the sort of like old

1035
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: radicals like from that area either like got regular jobs

1036
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: or became like African academics, right, And the other thing

1037
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: that happened with this politics that was the reason why

1038
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: it was completely unsustainable was that and this this is

1039
00:54:58,360 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: this has been a sort of a problem with the

1040
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: Asian America entity. Right is that okay, like what the

1041
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 1: fund is an Asian American right, it's like anyone from

1042
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: like I don't know, likes anyone from like the like

1043
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: the edge of the Pacific to like I don't know,

1044
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: like how how how far? How far? Like I what's

1045
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: it called? Like how far? How far west? Does that go?

1046
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: The other direction? Like who knows? It's like yeah, like

1047
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like billions and billions and billions

1048
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: of people with completely your related cultures and languages and

1049
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And the reason they were able to

1050
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: do this right was because they were mirroring their movement

1051
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: off of like the Third World right. But the problem

1052
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: that they ran into, and this is the problem with

1053
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: all the Third World movements was that, Okay, So the

1054
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: Third World movement like as a thing was it was

1055
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: based on a bunch of different nationalist movements, right, Like

1056
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: it was based on that there's going to be this

1057
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: like alliance between like the sort of like the rising

1058
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: socialis powers in Africa and the rising socialist powers and

1059
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: I in East Asia, and they were gonna sort of

1060
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: like ally with like the rising sort of like I know,

1061
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: like the rising sort of like minorities getting power in

1062
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: the US. But okay, if you look at those nationalisms, right,

1063
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: you have Chinese nationalism, Cambodian nationalism, and Vietnamese nationalism all

1064
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: colliding with each other. And you know, if it turns

1065
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 1: out like what okay? So what what what happens if

1066
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,479
Speaker 1: your movement is based on sort of like the unity

1067
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: of a bunch of nationals movements and they go to

1068
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: war with each other? And you know what happened was

1069
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: when when when China when Vietnam and Vadas Cambodia in

1070
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: and and Vietnam and Vedas Cambodia and then China invades

1071
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: Vietnam in nineteen seventy nine. Right, the entire politics is

1072
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: fucked because what what what are you supposed to do?

1073
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: Like what's who's who side you're supposed to take? Here? Right?

1074
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: Like you can you can do the you know, like

1075
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: if if you're gonna be like a Marxist, like a

1076
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: Marxis Leninist, like the probably the correct line to support Vietnam, right,

1077
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: But that's a mess because you know how many people

1078
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: in Maoists, right, and if you but but you know,

1079
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 1: if you're a Maoist and you're fucking people just invaded Vietnam,

1080
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: like you know, what are you supposed to do? Right?

1081
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: And there was there were earlier attentions with this too,

1082
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: where like like China, with China was backing like a

1083
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: really shitty fashion in Angola who ended up ended up

1084
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: being backed by the US and like South Africa, and

1085
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: that caused a whole bunch of tensions between the sort

1086
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: of Chinese Maoists and a bunch of the sort of

1087
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: black radical groups because they were like, why the funk

1088
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: are you guys backing these people in Angola? But you know,

1089
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: and and and this, this whole thing became a problem

1090
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: because all of these nationalisms are competing nationalisms right there.

1091
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: There was never going to be one unified third world.

1092
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: It was always it was always going to end with

1093
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of nationalists fucking fighting each other. And when

1094
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: that happens, the Asian like the Asian American movement such

1095
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: as it was just fucking died, and you know, like

1096
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: as a radical movement, it was just over. And so

1097
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think the lesson that I

1098
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: would take out of this is just that like, do

1099
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: not build. Do not build your movement based off of

1100
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: someone else's nationalism, because those people are going to do

1101
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: things because they're nationalists that are just fucked right. They're

1102
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: gonna win. They're gonna invade Vietnam like camp, like the

1103
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: Cambodians are gonna invade Vietnam, and then Vietnam is gonna

1104
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: like you know, like are arguably justifiably because they've been

1105
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: getting attacked because they're fighting Khmer Rouge. But like you know,

1106
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: they're they're these people are all going to go to

1107
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: war with each other, right like you're or you know, you're,

1108
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: you're gonna be stuck in the situation where like you're, you're,

1109
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: you're you're being forced to two sides between like the

1110
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: DIRG and the and like the Marxist government Somalia because

1111
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: they've they've randomly gone to war with each other. So

1112
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: don't do this. This has been my rants that I wanted,

1113
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: all I wanted to do about this because yeah, no,

1114
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: I'm glad you did. I'm glad that I was here

1115
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: for it too, because I don't know, it's good to

1116
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: know this stuff and I get to learn by listening

1117
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: to you still me Um, yeah, I I appreciate all

1118
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: the research that you did. Thanks. Yeah, and yeah, so

1119
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: I guess this has been It can happen here? Yeah, yeah,

1120
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: that's the episode. You can find us happened here pod

1121
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: um on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at h three Um

1122
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, I'm a sure hero six six six on

1123
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: Twitter and then on Instagram. Just take out the six

1124
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: six sixes, but maybe I should add them because OK

1125
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: here anyway, thanks by this is it could happen here.

1126
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: My name is Jake Hanrahan. I'm a journalist and documentary filmmaker.

1127
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: Today you're gonna hear me reporting from an undisclosed location

1128
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: in Europe where I met with anti Putin Russian partisans.

1129
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: So right now, heading into the forest somewhere on the

1130
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: edge of Europe. There's snow absolutely everywhere. It's pitch black

1131
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: and it's very very cold. I'm heading into the forest

1132
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: to meet with anti government Russian partisans. They've been launching

1133
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: attacks inside Russia against Kremlin infrastructure. They've been blowing up

1134
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: railway tracks and attacking military recruitment centers because they want

1135
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: to disrupt the continued Russian invasion of Ukraine. These partners

1136
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: and attacks have been taking place all across Russia, but

1137
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: obviously over there there's a complete media blackout on this situation.

1138
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: So this group have come over um and agreed to

1139
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: meet with me to tell me what's actually happening and

1140
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: to let people know that it's not everybody there that

1141
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: supports this, and some people are even taking up arms,

1142
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: taking massive risks to try and stop proputing is up to.

1143
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: When Russia invaded Ukraine on February, the Ukrainian people bravely

1144
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: mobilized to fight back against Putin's attack on their country.

1145
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: Russia's so called Three Days Special Operation has turned into

1146
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: a grueling, year long battle whether Ukrainian resistance has been

1147
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: highly effective. Despite this chaos, it seems that many people

1148
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,439
Speaker 1: in Russia have come out in favor of this brutal war.

1149
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: Even now, with over forty people killed and over fourteen

1150
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: million displaced, there's still large scales support for Putin's attacks

1151
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: on Ukraine. This much is fact. The idea that every

1152
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: Russian is in favor of the war is not. Russia

1153
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 1: is a huge place, with a population of over one

1154
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: d and forty million. Many people there do not support

1155
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: Putin or his war. Some have even taken the risk

1156
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: to fight back. As I mentioned, there's a quiet but

1157
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: highly effective network of anti Poutin partisans that are fighting

1158
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: from within. They're doing this by blowing up military railways,

1159
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: sabotaging Kremlin cell towers, and burning down war recruitment centers,

1160
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: all this in an effort to help Ukrainians from Afar.

1161
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: If caught by the Russian security writy forces, they faced

1162
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: torture and life in prison. Despite the risks, in the

1163
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: last twelve months, there have been more than eighty confirmed

1164
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: attacks against the government inside at Russia. The attacks have

1165
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: taken place all across the country as well, from Moscow

1166
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: in the west to Vladivostok in the far east. There

1167
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: are dozens of different partisans cells and lone wolves. As

1168
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: is with real life, the partisans have varying different political

1169
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: ideologies from far left to far right. For the moment, though,

1170
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: they all share information with each other, recognizing their common

1171
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: enemy in Putin. One of the most organized groups is

1172
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: made up of militant anarchists. They're known as the Anaco

1173
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 1: Communist Combat Organization, more commonly referred to by their Russian

1174
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: abbreviation BOAK. It's two fighters from Boak who had arranged

1175
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: to meet in a Russia bordering forest of eastern Europe.

1176
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: We've spoken weeks before via encrypted email. They told me

1177
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: which country to fly to and then send me coordinates

1178
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: of where to meet them within a specific window of time.

1179
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: A driver as far as I could, abandon the car

1180
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: and took off into the forest. Eventually, a red torchlight

1181
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: emerged through the trees, cutting the silhouette of two figures.

1182
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: As the two approached, it was clear it was the

1183
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: Boak fighters. They were both dressed head to toe in black,

1184
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: and we're both wearing balaclavas. We confirmed things, shook hands

1185
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: and set off to find a spot for the interview.

1186
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: They let me through an underground tunnel to an area

1187
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: they felt comfortable with. Just to protect the identity of

1188
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: the rushing partisans, we've scrambled their voice. That voice you

1189
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: just heard that, Oh yeah, she's a female, and the

1190
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 1: other fire said the voice you'll hear that's Jura, he's

1191
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: a male. Can you explain the actions, like what are

1192
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: the main things you've been doing to disrupt Putin's invasion?

1193
01:03:55,640 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: The assembled railways, which leads to their after really else

1194
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: in the most court region do it the fronto to

1195
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: give to the Krainian people more time to prepare for

1196
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: the The railing trains in Russia is something the Partisans

1197
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: specialize in. They've managed to knock several Kremlin cargo trains

1198
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: off their tracks, trains that were destined to the level

1199
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: weapons to Russian soldiers as they continued to invade Ukraine.

1200
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: We'll probably never know how helpful this was for Ukrainians,

1201
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: but every second counts when battling for frontline positions in war.

1202
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: For example, if Russian soldiers were left waiting for a

1203
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: resupply which was delayed because of partisan attacks, they might

1204
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: then be overrun by Ukrainians. This would definitely be an

1205
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: effective blow for the Partisans. I asked the Borack fights

1206
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: is why they felt the need to form such an organization.

1207
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: We see that we need to create a partisan organization

1208
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: because in the Russia the state depression is very hard.

1209
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: So you came to use some uh legal methods to

1210
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: do some step by step changes. Even if you do

1211
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,959
Speaker 1: some so called legal actions, anyway, you'll go to the jail.

1212
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: We are attacking the state to make it weaker, to

1213
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: show people that we can do it. We as people

1214
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: people of Russia, people of all the old We have

1215
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: this power in our hands. And yeah, and them the

1216
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: stay they are small and we are there's a lot

1217
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: of us. And the second direction, which we are developed

1218
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: since is a coordination of such kinds of attacks. Attacks

1219
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: all over the Russia. Recently we published I think maybe

1220
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: even more than an attacks from many different regions. We

1221
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: have small partisan cells to find out how to make attacks,

1222
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: help them with supplies, helps such as small person groups.

1223
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: It's increasing, it's increasing here and they make more and

1224
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: more serious attacks. For example, not a long time ago

1225
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: they bombed some kind of military road near the graying

1226
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: In border. So hope is not in that one small

1227
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: group can do, but that we have a lot of

1228
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: small groups and altogethers that we can change things. So

1229
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: you guys been around before the uk MOS started, or

1230
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: at least since the invasion started this year, but that's

1231
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: when you've got a lot more known. I think online

1232
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 1: we've seen that you guys are actually doing attacks inside

1233
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: Russia and in Belarus. Very dangerous thing to do. Um,

1234
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: what is it that you know spurred you guys on

1235
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: why you're doing this way? You're taking such a risk

1236
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: to basically attack who in in his own country, because

1237
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 1: it's not his country, it's our country. We can't do nothing.

1238
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: We can do legal things. And this patternan tax can

1239
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: make military imagine of Russian state. We got the supply lines,

1240
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: we attack the military equipment centers, so the army became

1241
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: so we can end as it was very often in

1242
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: the Russia and many others states study on the state

1243
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,480
Speaker 1: lows war. That is, the window of possibilities opens for

1244
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: the people of this country. What was Boach a pragmatic

1245
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: focused currently on the pressing issue of Putin's or on Ukraine.

1246
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: They're also looking to carve out a space for themselves

1247
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: in what they believe will be a wild post Putin Russia.

1248
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,919
Speaker 1: When Putin dies, there will be a vacuum where many

1249
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: other groups feel the same Boach in their minds, setting

1250
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: down foundations already. For now though, they concentrate on assisting

1251
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: the Ukrainians and in terms of like solidarity with Ukraine,

1252
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: are you doing this outh the Ukrainians as well or

1253
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 1: just for yourselves, like are you in contact with Ukrainians

1254
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: or is this just like a movement you guys are

1255
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: doing yourself. Of course, we have contacts, we can of

1256
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: course uh see what exactly contact? Yes, but yes we

1257
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: have contact moves uh different not only on his organization,

1258
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: in all ex country as well, we try to provide

1259
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: information for those other groups which don't yet know how

1260
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: to do things and don't yet have funds enough for

1261
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 1: supplies because even gasoline costs money and they don't have money.

1262
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 1: And as well, near the start of war, our group

1263
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,799
Speaker 1: organized a few attacks like on a mobile cell towers

1264
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: Ukraine border, as we've seen from the telegram channels, the

1265
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: kind of underground, there's definitely a lot of attacks. As

1266
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: you've said, as you've been doing, how big is your

1267
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: organization because it's hard to tell how how prevalent are

1268
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: these attacks inside Russia? So that is well two or

1269
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: three dozens finished groups. Um, everyone has a different number

1270
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: of members. And what about geography as you know of

1271
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:58,560
Speaker 1: the dance X from the calliand west over us to

1272
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 1: the what your stalk which is yeah, specifically being anarchist

1273
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: but being partisans is extremely extremely dangerous inside Russia. You're

1274
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 1: taking a massive risk doing this kind of stuff. Um,

1275
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: some people are going to leave this and go like

1276
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: why why would you take that risk? If we won't

1277
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 1: take those risks now we won't have future at all.

1278
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 1: And you're not worried, you're not scared of getting caught.

1279
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: But it's much more scarier to leave, know that you

1280
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 1: had chanced to change something and you didn't. Our people

1281
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,759
Speaker 1: killing people of Ukraine and making a golds and wars,

1282
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: so every day it was interest for nuclear war and

1283
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: so on, because if you do it now, maybe we

1284
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 1: will not have the future at all. Not only in Rush,

1285
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: all over the world. People on the internet, they will

1286
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: see what you guys are doing and they say, are

1287
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: you guys are CIA opertures and stuff like this, particularly

1288
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 1: like Westerners that actually support putting. Now you know what

1289
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 1: it's like living there under putting? Um, you know what,

1290
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: how would you right? Stuff? Would you say to always

1291
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: kind of actus eyes? I think if we would be

1292
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: saying hey, we would act more effectively. But we acted

1293
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: with those forces, with those resources which we have, we're

1294
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 1: trying to increase them. But when said that, it's time,

1295
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: it's process from zero partisan attacked to the full parts

1296
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 1: of the ward. So if we were see we had

1297
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,480
Speaker 1: a lot, well, we would have a lot of more resources.

1298
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 1: And yeah, we like we have homemade boombs or anything

1299
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: we can get our hands on or even speaking about

1300
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: sources which we used. When we uh the sample trailways,

1301
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: we used simple instruments which we could be bought in.

1302
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 1: We are showing people that they can just go to

1303
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 1: the and buy those tools and do that themselves. It's

1304
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: not just you know, us doing some stuff with some

1305
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 1: specific materials you can only get in the darknet. Now,

1306
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: let's be honest. It's likely the c i A are

1307
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: up to something in Russia considering their past history, but

1308
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 1: personally I believe back when they say they're nothing to

1309
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 1: do with that. I think it would be pretty unlikely

1310
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 1: that the CIA would help an Anaco communist group when

1311
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 1: there are ultra nationalist groups doing similar things. How do

1312
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: you get the information? Like how do you know which

1313
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: railway to blow up? We used to wiki mar provides

1314
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: description for each object on the map and every everyone

1315
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: can contribute to eat. So he just opened it and

1316
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: you find, okay, minite objects here. It's doing something like

1317
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 1: that that, it's it's photos and people who did they

1318
01:11:55,760 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: didn't do it for us just because formation you just

1319
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,679
Speaker 1: can take it im do it. So they use wiki

1320
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,599
Speaker 1: mapia to help their attacks. This I found quite funny.

1321
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 1: It's like the modern version of guerrillas gathering intel from

1322
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 1: locals about the enemy, only the locals in this case

1323
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: don't even know they're doing it. Scouting is also a

1324
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: big part of their sabotage preparations. But but of course,

1325
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 1: so we need to a lot of scouting. Yeah, scouting

1326
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:29,680
Speaker 1: like you you check out the PO. I know the

1327
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: anarchists specifically in Russia have been tortured quite a lot.

1328
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: If they're captured for anything, Um, what do you think

1329
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: would happen to you? Guys? If you got caught? For sure,

1330
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: we're going to as well, if you will be if

1331
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: you will live enough because we not link to Yeah,

1332
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 1: we don't give any information on our comrades, and when

1333
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: you're tortured, it's hard to say when we would or

1334
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 1: would not your break. So it's got to prevent this

1335
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: by dying fighting. Does that mean your firearms? If you

1336
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 1: want to do a revolution, you can do to the

1337
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: forums like why why are you doing this? Why are

1338
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: you giving us? Why do you want this this information

1339
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:16,719
Speaker 1: to get out there? Do you think that it's important

1340
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 1: that people see us not as some internet warriors. We

1341
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: want people to hear our voices, to hear what we

1342
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: can we have to say people to think that we

1343
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: are some shay the organization, but we want them to

1344
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 1: see that we are real people just like them, and

1345
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: just like us. They can do things that we do.

1346
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:41,679
Speaker 1: A lot of it is online, but there's there's definitely

1347
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 1: a perception that all Russians agree with the invasion, the

1348
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 1: destruction of Ukraine, what Putin wants to do. Obviously, people

1349
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:52,959
Speaker 1: like you very clearly, you know, a small but effective

1350
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 1: resistance against Putin policies. What do you think about that?

1351
01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 1: How would you respond to that? Is? Is it in

1352
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: the country and more people against the then it would

1353
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 1: seem or what? There are a lot more people against

1354
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: it than it seems, because propaganda shows only people who

1355
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:13,560
Speaker 1: agree with Putta and many many people don't agree, and

1356
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: many people just just silent because they're afraid to lose

1357
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: their jobs. If you will beat a dog every day

1358
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,640
Speaker 1: and then some day it will think that you I

1359
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 1: live like that, it's normally, you know. So as we

1360
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: see a lot of people in Russia are also victims

1361
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: of the Putin's regime at the moment, they just don't

1362
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: think that if they stick up they will change anything.

1363
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: I think our main message is that people shouldn't just

1364
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 1: sit and wait that someone else is gonna do anything

1365
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: for them. They should take their lives in their own hands.

1366
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 1: As we often repeat, if not to be, don't who?

1367
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,640
Speaker 1: If not now that when, thank you very much, life

1368
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 1: and everything. It's very good. Much without. The two partisans

1369
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 1: from Boak vanished into the forest. As Russia's war on

1370
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: Ukraine approaches at twelve month, Russian partisans like the ones

1371
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: I spoke to continuing to disrupt Putne's war effort from within.

1372
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 1: Organizations like Boak are fighting and uphill battle, but still

1373
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: their attacks have definitely been effective. As we said, several

1374
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 1: military trains have been derailed and word of the partisan

1375
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 1: underground is spreading. Whilst there's next to no Russian state

1376
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: media coverage on this, the Russian government is clearly aware

1377
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 1: of it. Security around Russian train tracks has been tightened,

1378
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:41,560
Speaker 1: and the Russian court has find the telegram app for

1379
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:45,559
Speaker 1: allowing partisan networks to share information. There not to mention

1380
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,759
Speaker 1: the uptick in unexplained fires breaking out across the country.

1381
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: Even though Prune's government acts like they can't see them,

1382
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 1: they know the partisans there. If you want to watch

1383
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: the extended documentary version of this reporting. Go to YouTube

1384
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 1: dot com slash popular Front and look for the documentary

1385
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 1: Rushes Anti poutin Underground. Music in this episode of It

1386
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here was by Sam Black seas music at

1387
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 1: Sam black pf dot com. Reporting production editing was by me.

1388
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 1: You can follow me at Jake Underscore Hanrahan h A

1389
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 1: N I A H A N. Please do check out

1390
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: my platform, independent grassroots conflict Reporting www dot Popular Front

1391
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: dot CEO. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a

1392
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 1: podcast that is today about it happening here or or

1393
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: more particularly in Atlanta. So so it's here if you

1394
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 1: happen to live in Atlanta, Georgia. Otherwise it is it

1395
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,600
Speaker 1: is still happening there. Um. And I don't actually know

1396
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 1: much about this because, like the rest of you, I

1397
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 1: have been watching from the sidelines since a forest defender

1398
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: was killed by the Georgia State Police. But someone who

1399
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 1: has been in Atlanta for most of the last week

1400
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: is Garrison Davis. Garrison, Hi, Hi, it's been a long week. Yeah,

1401
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like it. You uh had just gotten back

1402
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,799
Speaker 1: from c e S when all this happened, and booked

1403
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 1: booked the next flight and flew out and we're on

1404
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:42,680
Speaker 1: the ground during uh, some of the immediate protests that

1405
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: followed news about the death. Do you do you want

1406
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 1: to just kind of take it from here. Yeah, So

1407
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:52,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna be putting together kind of a more in

1408
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: depth thing similar to my similar to my on the

1409
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 1: Ground to Defend the Atlanta Forest episodes from last May.

1410
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: That is that's that's gonna come out. But you know,

1411
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 1: it'll take a little bit because I'm doing a lot

1412
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:07,720
Speaker 1: of interviews, doing a lot of on the ground stuff here. Um,

1413
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 1: but this is important enough that I feel like it's

1414
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 1: it's worth that it was it was worth mentioning something

1415
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 1: a bit sooner, which is why we're recording here today

1416
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 1: just to kind of give a one oh one on

1417
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,759
Speaker 1: what's been going on ever since Wednesday. So Wednesday, January

1418
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 1: there was a raid on the Wallawnee Forest or the

1419
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:29,799
Speaker 1: South River Forest in Atlanta, where people have been currently

1420
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: staying in encampments for the past like a year and

1421
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 1: a half in opposition of this upcoming proposed police training

1422
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 1: facility to be built on this same land. So Wednesday

1423
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:44,599
Speaker 1: morning there was this raid. Um, there's a few things

1424
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 1: different about this raid. One it seemed to be in

1425
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 1: some ways kind of led by the Georgia State Patrol. UM.

1426
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:56,320
Speaker 1: This is uh, you know, a state, a state run

1427
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 1: police that has not been in this force before. UM.

1428
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 1: Other raids have been coordinated between the Decap County Police

1429
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,799
Speaker 1: in Atlanta Police. So the swat team was was unfamiliar

1430
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 1: with the forest. They had not been in there before.

1431
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:10,560
Speaker 1: There was there was other police on on site. This

1432
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 1: was an inter agency thing. There was it does seem

1433
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: like there was Atlanta police here as well. But this

1434
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 1: started at around eight am and then at around nine

1435
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: am we got word that uh, a forest defender was

1436
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 1: shot and killed by it seems like in an estate

1437
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 1: patrol officer that they are not releasing the name of,

1438
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 1: nor are they releasing the name of one other officer

1439
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: who was injured. UM and George georgiea State patrol claims

1440
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,679
Speaker 1: that they were shot during this raid as well. Police

1441
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: by Day Yes, police police claim that they were shot

1442
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 1: by the person that the George State Patrol killed. There's

1443
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 1: very little information about this. UM. Nobody cameras no, they

1444
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 1: have said that there's no nobody cam which does seem

1445
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,839
Speaker 1: consistent because George st. Patrol are not are not required

1446
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,840
Speaker 1: to our body cam, so that obviously hit a lot

1447
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:10,599
Speaker 1: of people pretty hard. Because this is um, to our knowledge,

1448
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 1: the first like you know, environmental ist protester to be

1449
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 1: killed by police. It's the first fatality that we've had

1450
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:22,839
Speaker 1: in the in this in this movement here in Atlanta.

1451
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 1: And for the record, it is still deeply unclear what happened.

1452
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: It's certainly not impossible that this person fired first on

1453
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:34,600
Speaker 1: the police officer, but it's it's also incredibly important to

1454
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 1: note that there is no evidence of this that's been presented.

1455
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,400
Speaker 1: The only evidence that the police have presented is a

1456
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: photo of a of a pistol on the ground. UM.

1457
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:48,960
Speaker 1: And then they've made the very weasily worded claim that

1458
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: UM ballistics testing has shown that the bullet that struck

1459
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 1: the officer was consistent with the gun that they're saying

1460
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 1: with the the individual they killed had all that means

1461
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 1: I said it was nine millimeter. That was the same caliber, right,

1462
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: a caliber for which there are tens of millions of

1463
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 1: guns in this country. UM. Most ballistic science is in

1464
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 1: terms of like identifying bullets to guns is actually nonsense.

1465
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,840
Speaker 1: There have been massive lawsuits about this. The FBI, UM

1466
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 1: has has this is a bigger topic than than we

1467
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 1: can get into today. But it's very shady, and all

1468
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 1: that they actually said is the cop was shot with

1469
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: a nine millimeter and hey, look we found a nine millimeter.

1470
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: Not interestingly enough, we have confirmed that this gun was fired. Um.

1471
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: So very anyway, so no one knows what's happened. It's

1472
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: it's it's shady. I mean, so I've I got I

1473
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 1: got here like less than twenty four hours later. A

1474
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 1: lot of people on the ground have been kind of

1475
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: sharing their memories of the person that was killed. So

1476
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 1: the person was named their Their forest name was Tortuguita,

1477
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,719
Speaker 1: which means little turtle. Their name that has been released

1478
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:01,599
Speaker 1: is uh Manuel Um, I'm just gonna I'm gonna call

1479
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:05,200
Speaker 1: them tortuga or tort um. Sure, there's been people of

1480
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: you know, spent a lot of the past few days

1481
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: talking about tort remembering tort um, the types of things

1482
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 1: that that they advocated for the types of things that

1483
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 1: they would talk about. So we'll well, we'll get into

1484
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: some of the more kind of specifics of that of

1485
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 1: that of that later. Um. But a number of other

1486
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:31,680
Speaker 1: journalists have talked about their conversations with with toward, including

1487
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:35,640
Speaker 1: Um the fact that they evinced a pretty principled um

1488
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 1: and and extensive commitment to non violence, UM, at least

1489
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: in interviews. This is something they had been quoted on

1490
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 1: by an other journalists a number of times. And this

1491
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 1: is something I've heard a lot of people bring up.

1492
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Is that is that tort was was a believer in

1493
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: in non violence and would and would talk about and

1494
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 1: advocate that. The other the other kind of angle to this,

1495
01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 1: and I'm not taking a position one way or another here,

1496
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 1: but this is something that I think it's important to

1497
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 1: mention is that I also don't want to remove the

1498
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: agency of a person if they did decide to do

1499
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:09,280
Speaker 1: if I, if I did, if they did decide to

1500
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 1: do this. Because the other thing I've heard a lot

1501
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: about Towards is that they always made thoughtful decisions, in

1502
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:20,920
Speaker 1: meaning that they put thought into everything they did. Um.

1503
01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 1: They were they acted strategically. They did not they did

1504
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 1: not put people in unnecessary danger. They would not do

1505
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 1: something if they thought it would endanger other people. They

1506
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:35,240
Speaker 1: always acted with thought and that that that could include

1507
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: if you feel like your life is under immediate threat, um,

1508
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: what what actually happened Wednesday morning? We will probably never know,

1509
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: we will never know the exact series of events. Yeah,

1510
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 1: and it's and in some ways like that's we can

1511
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 1: we should respect towards either way, um, because they made

1512
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 1: it a decision that they thought that was right in

1513
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 1: the moment where they were just flat out murdered by police. UM.

1514
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,600
Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of the gist of of what

1515
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 1: happened Wednesday morning. Throughout the rest of the day, their

1516
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,640
Speaker 1: police continued their raid on the forest. The last the

1517
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 1: last tree sitter was eventually taken down like twenty hours

1518
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 1: later after the raids. That someone was stuck up in

1519
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 1: a tree for over twenty hours, no food or water, Um,

1520
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:31,720
Speaker 1: police agitating them the entire time, and many all of

1521
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 1: all the other people arrested, I think it total around

1522
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 1: seven got charged with the domestic terrorism among other charges.

1523
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:44,560
Speaker 1: So that's pretty significant. Um. That is people. That's that

1524
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 1: and we will circle back to this to this point

1525
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,560
Speaker 1: a little bit later. So that is that is what

1526
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 1: happened on Wednesday. Uh, you know, the first few hours

1527
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: after the shooting, people were unsure of of who actually

1528
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 1: got killed. It was it was hard, it was hard

1529
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,360
Speaker 1: to say. Um. Other force defenders who were in the

1530
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,920
Speaker 1: area did report from that what they heard there was

1531
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 1: a pretty a pretty quick single firing of of guns,

1532
01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 1: multiple guns going off in a pretty quick succession. There

1533
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,720
Speaker 1: was no like one shot and then seconds later bunch

1534
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 1: of other shots. It was all kind of one event.

1535
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 1: This is reports from people on the ground. This is

1536
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:22,439
Speaker 1: what this is what they've said. UM, A lot of

1537
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people speculate that this could have been

1538
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: friendly fire. If if this, if this, if this, if

1539
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 1: this other patrol officer was was, um, you know, got shot.

1540
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: They went to the hospital. So it doesn't it doesn't

1541
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 1: police officer had got a bullet inside of them. Um.

1542
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 1: But obviously there's a number of ways in which that

1543
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 1: could have occurred. And I don't find it. I certainly,

1544
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: I don't think it's conspiratory at all, too conspiratorial at

1545
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 1: all to say they have not presented evidence. It is

1546
01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 1: certainly possible that a bunch of cops wandering through the forest,

1547
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,639
Speaker 1: somebody would have a negligent discharge, you know, somebody would

1548
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 1: just pant. You know, there's enough we and again, as

1549
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 1: you've stated, we just we probably will never know precisely

1550
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 1: what happened. Um, And that's that's that's the feeling on

1551
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:10,800
Speaker 1: the ground, a lot of people coming to terms with

1552
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:12,679
Speaker 1: the fact that we will never know. A lot of people,

1553
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 1: you know, thinking that it's you know, very likely chance

1554
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:18,840
Speaker 1: it was friendly fire. Other people, you know, trying to

1555
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 1: trying to emphasize the fact that, you know, we will

1556
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 1: never know if we cannot say one way, they or another.

1557
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:28,880
Speaker 1: But it's also important not to minimize someone's autonomy, especially

1558
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 1: since they're no longer around to advocate for themselves or

1559
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:36,560
Speaker 1: their actions. Yeah, let's go, let's have a let's have

1560
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:38,560
Speaker 1: an ad break, and then we'll kind of continue on

1561
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:42,679
Speaker 1: to what happened in the in the days after we're

1562
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:47,519
Speaker 1: back Garrison. Please continue to take it away. So the

1563
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 1: late the day of the shooting, there was a vigil

1564
01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:52,519
Speaker 1: before we found out who it was. There was a

1565
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: vigil set up at Little Five Points in Atlanta, and

1566
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:59,719
Speaker 1: then the next two days there was there was a vigil.

1567
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 1: Space is created at entrenchmentt Creek Park or Woolani People's Park. Uh,

1568
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 1: this is an area of the forest that's too that's

1569
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 1: on like the eastern side, and this is the section

1570
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 1: that is currently being sought as a place to expand

1571
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 1: black Hole Movie studios. So this is this is separate

1572
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 1: from the actual cops City element of this, but it's

1573
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: still part of the Defend the Atlanta Forest side of

1574
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 1: this because this is all the same forest. They're just

1575
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,840
Speaker 1: kind of split um down the middle by this by

1576
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: this power line cut. So this section of the park

1577
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 1: is on a section of land that's contestedly owned by

1578
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: Ryan Millsap, the guy who runs Black Hall Studios. I

1579
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:45,799
Speaker 1: first arrived at at the Willani People's Park on Friday

1580
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 1: for the for like the more public facing vigil, and

1581
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 1: I just just kind of I want to talk a

1582
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 1: bit about the park because this is such a I

1583
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:58,800
Speaker 1: think it's such a solid encapsulation of what's changed since

1584
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:01,360
Speaker 1: last time I've been in Atlanta. So last time I

1585
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:05,639
Speaker 1: was in Atlanta, there was the Muscogee Creek. People were

1586
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:10,680
Speaker 1: traveling from my belief, Oklahoma to Atlanta what what is

1587
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: now Atlanta what what used to be Muskogee land um,

1588
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,640
Speaker 1: and they were they were like giving talks and presentations

1589
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,320
Speaker 1: about the forest inside the section of forests that that

1590
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 1: the Defend the Atlanta Fort stuff is about. And I

1591
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,720
Speaker 1: went to one of those events at in Trenchpant Creek Park.

1592
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,760
Speaker 1: It was green trees all around, there was a nice gazebo.

1593
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 1: There was a there was a piano inside the gazebo,

1594
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:39,120
Speaker 1: people handing out food, a little kitchen was set up,

1595
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: pretty pretty picturesque. It was. It was pretty. It was

1596
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 1: pretty great. So then when I pulled up to this

1597
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 1: same spot a few days ago, it was like apocalyptic.

1598
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 1: The gazebo has been completely torn down and is laying

1599
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: in shambles in the front of the parking lot like

1600
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,439
Speaker 1: for everyone to see. The destroyed rooms, all of the

1601
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 1: all of like the uh, the the concrete sidewalks and

1602
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,519
Speaker 1: stuff have all been torn up and it's just scattered everywhere.

1603
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 1: It's now it's just it's just a massive mud pit.

1604
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: It's it's such a different place. Um. And you know

1605
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:19,320
Speaker 1: when you when you get there for a vigil, the

1606
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 1: moods not cheery obviously. Um. There was people you know,

1607
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:28,679
Speaker 1: sharing stories of Tort, singing songs and you know, building

1608
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 1: this like a almost like a virgual shrine. Um. So

1609
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: that was like the first the first big thing Friday night. Um.

1610
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 1: So a lot of people talked about their memories of

1611
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 1: Tort and you know the different things they contributed to,

1612
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 1: not just to defend the a lint of force stuff,

1613
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 1: but stuff across the entire South. They did mutual aid

1614
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 1: work UM and stuff to secure housing for people in Florida.

1615
01:29:55,640 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 1: They helped defend drag shows in U Tennessee. They they did,

1616
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:05,800
Speaker 1: they did stuff all all across the South. And you know,

1617
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:09,719
Speaker 1: they had they had allies and accomplices from across the South,

1618
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, talking about how great toward was to work

1619
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:16,960
Speaker 1: with the types of solidarity that tort would show too

1620
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 1: too many many different people. So that was Friday, and

1621
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,720
Speaker 1: everyone was kind of you could kind of feel the

1622
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 1: almost calm before the storm. In some ways, people didn't

1623
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:31,760
Speaker 1: people didn't really know what was going to happen in

1624
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: the coming days, but there was there was a sense

1625
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:41,439
Speaker 1: of like eerie quietness. And then Saturday happens. Saturday, there

1626
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 1: is this protest planned meeting in Underground Atlanta, which is

1627
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: a spot in downtown Atlanta kind of on the south side.

1628
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 1: I got there for this protest there. Initially there was

1629
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:58,640
Speaker 1: people from this like socialist organization called PSL. They they

1630
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 1: tried to lead them march one way. Um the crowd

1631
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 1: rejected their authority and was like, no, we're not going

1632
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 1: to go to the federal district. We're not going to

1633
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: go to the CNN Center, which are places notorious for

1634
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:15,840
Speaker 1: getting cattled at UM, and they and people autonomously redirected

1635
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:20,640
Speaker 1: the crowd um North towards the and and North is

1636
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 1: also just so happens to be the direction of the

1637
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, the pseudo union lobbying group that

1638
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 1: is that is behind the big push for for Cops

1639
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:36,440
Speaker 1: City UM. But before this march started, there was similarly,

1640
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,240
Speaker 1: you know, people giving speeches about tort people, not not speeches,

1641
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: like people just sharing memories of torts. So people so

1642
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 1: that tork can like live on UM in some way,

1643
01:31:45,439 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 1: so people can you know, know about them now that

1644
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 1: they're no longer around. You know, people from a local

1645
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:55,640
Speaker 1: medic collective talking about you know, towards towards involvement in

1646
01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 1: that and how much toward cared about, you know, helping

1647
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: other people. So this this this march starts up. UM.

1648
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:09,360
Speaker 1: It was funny there was a few blocks away from

1649
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 1: this march location. They're just so happened to be like

1650
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:15,120
Speaker 1: a single police car in the street but like parked

1651
01:32:15,160 --> 01:32:17,880
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the road, and this police

1652
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,680
Speaker 1: car sees this march coming and it's like kind of

1653
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:22,920
Speaker 1: freaking out. He doesn't know what to do. It drives

1654
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:26,479
Speaker 1: in reverse for like like two blocks, trying to find

1655
01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: a spot to turn around, as the marches like increasingly

1656
01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 1: getting closer. Like you could just you cause you could

1657
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:36,400
Speaker 1: just feel you could feel the anxiety of the cot

1658
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 1: inside this car. He they do not want to get

1659
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:42,960
Speaker 1: surrounded by a crowd. Um. Eventually they're able to back

1660
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:45,720
Speaker 1: up enough to turn around and they get out. They

1661
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 1: are they are zooming away. If you do not want

1662
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 1: to be anywhere near this. And short shortly after people

1663
01:32:53,120 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 1: arrive at the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, windows spontaneously shatter um.

1664
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 1: As as is expected, a few bank windows also get

1665
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:11,680
Speaker 1: um get get broken. What Wells Fargo being one of them, Yes,

1666
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:15,840
Speaker 1: r I P bank windows, Wells Fargo being another one.

1667
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 1: Wells Fargo is a major contributor to the Atlantic Police Foundation.

1668
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 1: So this happens. Two cop cars that are just you know,

1669
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:28,639
Speaker 1: blocks away, UM, that are sitting completely empty, get there,

1670
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 1: get their windows smashed. You know, there's there's there's fireworks

1671
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:37,360
Speaker 1: going off around the crowd. Um. There's there's this one

1672
01:33:37,439 --> 01:33:41,280
Speaker 1: clip that I that I saw from some some some

1673
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 1: group that was live streaming UM that there was. There

1674
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:48,400
Speaker 1: was a few a few officers like stationed beside the

1675
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:51,000
Speaker 1: Atlantic Police Foundation and as soon as they as soon

1676
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 1: as they heard fireworks, they again similarly just like ran

1677
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:56,759
Speaker 1: away as fast as they could. They were not equipped

1678
01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:01,560
Speaker 1: to deal with UM, to deal with a fireworks for

1679
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,600
Speaker 1: them were the main thing they seem to be scared of.

1680
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 1: So two to two cop carsgether when they're smashed. UM,

1681
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,320
Speaker 1: fireworks going around. March continues, goes for about a few

1682
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 1: more blocks and uh then Corker's notice police police are

1683
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:22,719
Speaker 1: starting to come. Police are approaching the approaching the crowd.

1684
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 1: Head on, please start rushing towards the crowd. UM one

1685
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:31,120
Speaker 1: they they tackle, tackle a few people holding a banner. UM,

1686
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: I think they they people. People scatter. The most of

1687
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 1: the crowd gets away. Most of the crowd splits up

1688
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 1: into into two groups. The largest chunk is able to

1689
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:45,559
Speaker 1: move away from police presence. There's you know, people chanting,

1690
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:48,560
Speaker 1: be water, you know, all of all the stuff. So

1691
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 1: most most people do successfully get away. The smaller, smaller

1692
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:56,200
Speaker 1: section of people split off another direction. Cops follow. They

1693
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 1: are able to tackle and arrest a few a few

1694
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:00,360
Speaker 1: more people in this in this group. In the end,

1695
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 1: it looks like there was six people arrested. Um, most

1696
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:07,639
Speaker 1: moost people got away. After all these arrests are happening,

1697
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 1: people start noticing something that in the background a few

1698
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 1: a few blocks previous to where people were marching. Uh,

1699
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 1: it looks there looks to be a glowing police car. Uh.

1700
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 1: So we we we look back, and sure enough in

1701
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:26,480
Speaker 1: an Atlanta police car is up in flames, um, completely

1702
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: completely completely glowing, huge, huge flames. So so as that happens,

1703
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:37,240
Speaker 1: more and more cops show up. This is where like

1704
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: the cops now are like taking over downtown. Um, you know,

1705
01:35:41,080 --> 01:35:44,200
Speaker 1: cops with with the Air fifteen or a er style

1706
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,799
Speaker 1: rifles are are going around staring, starting to do patrols.

1707
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:51,840
Speaker 1: So this is like the night. The night is over

1708
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 1: at this point. Now it's time for like people to

1709
01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:58,560
Speaker 1: scatter and leave, which is what people did. The The

1710
01:35:58,680 --> 01:36:05,599
Speaker 1: aftermath of this is super fascinating and unfortunate, if not unexpected. Uh.

1711
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, there's been very little statements about the police

1712
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: killing of an of of tortequita of you know, an

1713
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:17,840
Speaker 1: environmental activist UM force defender, but very very very little

1714
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:21,439
Speaker 1: statements addressing this this matter at all. A huge flood

1715
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:26,360
Speaker 1: of statements. However, exte seeming to be extremely concerned that

1716
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:30,160
Speaker 1: like a few windows were broken and that a cop

1717
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:33,560
Speaker 1: car got torched. This this is and you know this,

1718
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,960
Speaker 1: this is this is less than a week after Martin

1719
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:41,519
Speaker 1: Luther King day. Um, this is you know this is.

1720
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 1: The big quote was that the police chief a few

1721
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:52,040
Speaker 1: hours later declared that breaking windows and starting fires is terrorism,

1722
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 1: which is a wild thing for a police chief to say.

1723
01:36:56,720 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 1: As the mayor stands behind nodding in agreement, it's one

1724
01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:04,439
Speaker 1: of the most fascist things that we've that has that

1725
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:07,320
Speaker 1: has occurred in the United States. You cannot understate like

1726
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 1: the severity of yeah, like this, the severity of this,

1727
01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:14,680
Speaker 1: of this change in the types of framing by the

1728
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 1: state to describe civil disobedience, to describe property destruction, to

1729
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 1: describe vandalism as a form of of of domestic terrorism

1730
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:30,360
Speaker 1: is is appalling. Um. I mean, if if this, if

1731
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 1: this holds up, then in states where this is done,

1732
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 1: there is effectively no longer any right to protest. Yeah,

1733
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 1: And I mean, and we'll get into some some of

1734
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:41,560
Speaker 1: the details of this in a bit, even in this

1735
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:44,439
Speaker 1: in this episode, Um, and I think the the other

1736
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:47,320
Speaker 1: side of this is that this is something that I've

1737
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:50,200
Speaker 1: heard people talk about here on the ground, is that

1738
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:54,920
Speaker 1: if if breaking windows is terrorism, right, if if if

1739
01:37:55,120 --> 01:38:00,080
Speaker 1: if the destruction of inanimate objects is terrorism, what what

1740
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 1: exactly is destroying an entire forest like this is? This

1741
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: is like the juxtaposition that people are dealing with on

1742
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:13,600
Speaker 1: the ground right now. So the end, the result of

1743
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:16,800
Speaker 1: this is that we got six people who not six

1744
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:20,320
Speaker 1: people who were to be clear arrested completely at random.

1745
01:38:20,560 --> 01:38:23,439
Speaker 1: This this was very clear. Police were tackling anyone they

1746
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 1: could get their hands on. They were not doing targeted arrests.

1747
01:38:26,120 --> 01:38:28,840
Speaker 1: They were not going after specific individuals who they suspected

1748
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:33,600
Speaker 1: of of like actually doing crimes. Um they were. They

1749
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:36,600
Speaker 1: were tackling random people, as is kind of usual for

1750
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:40,519
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But they have gotten a series

1751
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 1: of ridiculous charges um riot, arson, interviewing, interfering with government property,

1752
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 1: and also domestic terrorism and domestics. So this is domestic terrorism,

1753
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:53,240
Speaker 1: not even for people that are like in the forest,

1754
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:59,000
Speaker 1: just people protesting out on the street. Ums were broken,

1755
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:03,080
Speaker 1: when windows broken, there's no evidence of this. The bail

1756
01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:06,920
Speaker 1: hearings were today as of being recorded. This is this

1757
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:09,920
Speaker 1: is Monday, but bail hearings were today the judge. The

1758
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 1: judge for the hearings specifically said that these hearings are

1759
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:16,799
Speaker 1: not to litigate the facts of the issue. What actually

1760
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 1: happened doesn't matter. There's there's obviously no evidence to support

1761
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 1: that any of these people arrested did any crimes. There's

1762
01:39:24,320 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that that shows that the specific people

1763
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 1: arrested did anything beyond marching in the street. And that

1764
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:34,639
Speaker 1: does not matter. That that that simply does does not matter.

1765
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 1: The brutality is the point in this case. To two

1766
01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:43,439
Speaker 1: people have had their bail set at three hundred and

1767
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:47,519
Speaker 1: fifty five thousand dollars each, So that's over seven hundred

1768
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 1: thousand dollars for just two people's bail. The other four

1769
01:39:51,080 --> 01:39:54,840
Speaker 1: people arrested were deemed to be from out of state

1770
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:58,719
Speaker 1: by the judge and then thus a flight risk, including

1771
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: people that are just like less than ninety minutes away

1772
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:04,880
Speaker 1: in Tennessee. And again this this is like where people

1773
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:07,720
Speaker 1: are born, there's this, there's this there's this sense that

1774
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 1: like people no longer have freedom to choose where they live,

1775
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:14,040
Speaker 1: that people like no longer have any freedom of movement,

1776
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:15,920
Speaker 1: that they no longer have the autonomy to go to

1777
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 1: two different places. You know, this is this is like

1778
01:40:20,320 --> 01:40:23,840
Speaker 1: in line with the outside agitator angle that's been being

1779
01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:27,720
Speaker 1: pushed by governments and media ever since, especially since this

1780
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:30,000
Speaker 1: is in line with that sort of stuff. But because

1781
01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:33,479
Speaker 1: these people were deemed non local or a flight risk,

1782
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:36,479
Speaker 1: these people are not getting any bond at all. These

1783
01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:41,200
Speaker 1: people are going to be held in jail. Definitely, it

1784
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:44,439
Speaker 1: could this, This could literally be years. The legal system

1785
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 1: is so slow and like being held in prison in

1786
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:52,800
Speaker 1: jail for for years with no evidence presented that you

1787
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:57,599
Speaker 1: did literally anything wrong. Um. I've talked with a lot

1788
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 1: of people, people from Solidarity Fund, which will I'll mention

1789
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 1: here at the end, and and you know, just just

1790
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:09,519
Speaker 1: people around like what they're you know with people are

1791
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:13,240
Speaker 1: getting arrested with no evidence and getting you know, indefinite

1792
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 1: time in prison, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars

1793
01:41:16,240 --> 01:41:21,760
Speaker 1: to be released, like the the the obvious abuse of

1794
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:26,240
Speaker 1: power by the state, UM the year audacity and uh,

1795
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 1: you know the extreme danger that if these, if these

1796
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:32,679
Speaker 1: are able to to to stick and hold is incredibly

1797
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 1: frightening for any any kind of future, um, any future

1798
01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 1: civil rights movement at all. Like this, it might say

1799
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:46,120
Speaker 1: that it's the strategic use of terror in order to

1800
01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:49,200
Speaker 1: achieve a political One might say that, and I mean

1801
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:52,360
Speaker 1: it's we're in Atlantic, the streets they're marching on, there's

1802
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 1: banners of Martin Luther King hanging above us like it's

1803
01:41:56,080 --> 01:41:59,400
Speaker 1: it's incredibly frustrating. The Solidarity Fund, which we interviewed on

1804
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:03,400
Speaker 1: the show literally days before that, well with the episode

1805
01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 1: released days before the killing of Tortuguita. UM. But the

1806
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:10,599
Speaker 1: Alliance Solidarity Fund is providing both legal support and UM

1807
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:14,599
Speaker 1: and and and bail for people arrested for political actions.

1808
01:42:15,160 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 1: The previous amount needed to bail out people was over

1809
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:21,080
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars, which is a lot of money,

1810
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:26,400
Speaker 1: and now just just for two people, it's seven thousand

1811
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:32,200
Speaker 1: more dollars. So the Atlanta Solidarity Fund desperately needs funds

1812
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:37,640
Speaker 1: to continue supporting people and to continue resisting state repression. UM.

1813
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 1: We'll talk about this more once I have my Deep

1814
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:44,719
Speaker 1: Died episodes out on this topic. But it's it's crucial

1815
01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: that that if if if anyone cares about people's right

1816
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:54,160
Speaker 1: to protest, to people's people's you know, ability to resist

1817
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 1: state violence. UM, then it's it's absolutely crucial that that

1818
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:03,840
Speaker 1: people support the solidarity on right now. Ah. Just just

1819
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:07,479
Speaker 1: today I went to another another kind of vigil UM

1820
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:12,040
Speaker 1: at Emery College here in Atlanta. More more people were

1821
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:16,200
Speaker 1: sharing stories of tort Um. One person was reading out

1822
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 1: a letter that they sent to sent to their UM

1823
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:23,280
Speaker 1: comrades in Italy who are setting up a vigil as well.

1824
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 1: There's been a good amount of international support, as I've

1825
01:43:26,200 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 1: seen vigils from Germany, UM from Italy. There's been there's

1826
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:35,479
Speaker 1: been events, demos, rallies, UM direct actions and vigils all

1827
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:39,559
Speaker 1: across the United States UM about to defend the land

1828
01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:45,880
Speaker 1: of forest and about the killing of Tortoquita people. People

1829
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 1: here absolutely do appreciate the solidarity. And the other thing

1830
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:52,000
Speaker 1: people are saying is that, I mean, all of these

1831
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:54,120
Speaker 1: tactics are meant to scare people away from the idea

1832
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:57,559
Speaker 1: of protesting and people are still needed on the ground here.

1833
01:43:57,640 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 1: This fight is not This fight is not over, UM,

1834
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:03,760
Speaker 1: this is this is not this is not the end.

1835
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 1: You know, Tactics may have to change, tactics may have

1836
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: to shift, people may have to approach things from from

1837
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,640
Speaker 1: UM you know, different angles. But it's not over, and

1838
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:16,320
Speaker 1: there's there's people have said that there's still a need

1839
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:20,280
Speaker 1: for you know, for support, rules, for people on the ground,

1840
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: for people to be in Atlanta, because it's not done.

1841
01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a lot of sentiment on

1842
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:31,320
Speaker 1: the left that what's happening in the Atlanta Forest defense

1843
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:34,760
Speaker 1: is probably the most important radical action going on in

1844
01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:37,360
Speaker 1: the country right now. And I think there's a few

1845
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: reasons for that. Um not just the fact that the

1846
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 1: forest that is going to be torn down for cops

1847
01:44:44,400 --> 01:44:46,760
Speaker 1: city is a crucial part of the city of Atlanta's

1848
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:50,720
Speaker 1: tree cover, and that all of this ties into both

1849
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 1: the impossibility of actually combating climate change under the present

1850
01:44:56,400 --> 01:45:01,360
Speaker 1: system and the complicity of the police in in making

1851
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 1: it impossible to combat that um or even to mitigate

1852
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:07,680
Speaker 1: it in many cases. But but I think what you've

1853
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:11,559
Speaker 1: gotten to is probably the most direct the most directly

1854
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 1: frightening thing about what's going on in Atlanta, and the

1855
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 1: thing that's most relevant to the future of any kind

1856
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:22,080
Speaker 1: of resistance in this country, which is, um, the the

1857
01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 1: gloves are are coming off right the the this is

1858
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:28,960
Speaker 1: this is not going to be the last time that

1859
01:45:29,160 --> 01:45:35,640
Speaker 1: state security forces use the fact that terrorism has a

1860
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:39,519
Speaker 1: special place in American law and that crimes that are

1861
01:45:39,600 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 1: deemed to be terrorism, Um, open up the ability of

1862
01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 1: the government to act in ways that they normally are

1863
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:49,280
Speaker 1: not supposed to be able to act. Um, Like that

1864
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:51,600
Speaker 1: is going to be It's not going to be just

1865
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:54,400
Speaker 1: forest defenders that gets used on. It's going to be

1866
01:45:55,080 --> 01:45:57,760
Speaker 1: anyone who ever carries out any kind of act of

1867
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:01,800
Speaker 1: protest that has a chance of setting the balance of power,

1868
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:06,799
Speaker 1: um in this country. Like, that's that's where this is headed.

1869
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:09,439
Speaker 1: And UM, it's a bummer. Do you want to talk

1870
01:46:09,479 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: a little bit about the role of the media in this,

1871
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:19,080
Speaker 1: because that is something that is I'm certain going to

1872
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,640
Speaker 1: be of We just had a thing today where some

1873
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:27,120
Speaker 1: weirdo lefties on the true and on subreddit decided and

1874
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:30,200
Speaker 1: someone on Twitter decided to accuse me of getting a

1875
01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:32,920
Speaker 1: bunch of people in Atlanta arrested for terrorism because I

1876
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 1: interviewed them on camera. I've I've never interviewed anyone in Atlanta,

1877
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:39,840
Speaker 1: I said, I simply have never worked there. Um. I'm

1878
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:42,240
Speaker 1: not sure where the rumors started, but it's it's reigniting

1879
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:44,560
Speaker 1: this kind of debate about it seems it seems like

1880
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:49,080
Speaker 1: tanky stuff. It's it's it's it's nonsense, But it has reignited,

1881
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:50,879
Speaker 1: and I saw this on the it could happen here subreddit,

1882
01:46:50,960 --> 01:46:54,519
Speaker 1: people talking about like, um, obviously, you know this is nonsense,

1883
01:46:54,600 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 1: but it is a you know, looking at these terrorism charges,

1884
01:46:57,160 --> 01:47:01,639
Speaker 1: it's a simple fact that activists should never talk to press.

1885
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:05,679
Speaker 1: And um, obviously a lot of these arrests had nothing

1886
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:09,639
Speaker 1: to do with anyone talking to the media. Like folks

1887
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:12,599
Speaker 1: were present at a riot and the cops were tackling folks.

1888
01:47:13,120 --> 01:47:16,080
Speaker 1: That's that's nobody but the cops's fault. But there's a

1889
01:47:16,240 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 1: there's a there's a conversation to be had about what

1890
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 1: is the what is the smart balance in terms of

1891
01:47:24,240 --> 01:47:28,720
Speaker 1: getting pr and getting press coverage and getting word of

1892
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:33,240
Speaker 1: mouth about a radical movement and the fact that doing

1893
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 1: that will inevitably ramp up pressure. Like that is that

1894
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 1: is a reality that when when radical activists get attention

1895
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:44,760
Speaker 1: from the media, the state cracks down. Now does that

1896
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:49,320
Speaker 1: mean that the media is responsible for the movement getting

1897
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:51,880
Speaker 1: cracked down or does it simply mean that the cops

1898
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,759
Speaker 1: judge whether or not something's a threat by the amount

1899
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:57,200
Speaker 1: of press that it's getting. You know, the the this

1900
01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 1: is this is an ongoing like thing. People they're going

1901
01:48:00,360 --> 01:48:02,720
Speaker 1: to be talking about in a lot of ways. It's

1902
01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:06,439
Speaker 1: a continuation of conversations people were having in But I'm

1903
01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 1: interested in because when you went over there, we had

1904
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: a little a few hours of debate after it became

1905
01:48:13,120 --> 01:48:16,479
Speaker 1: clear that the cops had killed a forest defender over like, Okay,

1906
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:19,240
Speaker 1: what's the right thing to do? Should should Garrison head

1907
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 1: over to Atlanta? Um? Should we have some boots on

1908
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 1: the ground for this, because you've been covering it for

1909
01:48:24,320 --> 01:48:26,800
Speaker 1: so long and one of the things you pointed out

1910
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:30,240
Speaker 1: is that there was a call for media coverage from

1911
01:48:30,439 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 1: people who were on the ground in Atlanta. Yes, this

1912
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 1: is something I will get born into when I go

1913
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:38,759
Speaker 1: in depth with this for an upcoming episode, probably probably

1914
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: probably a two parter um. That's this is a conversation

1915
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:45,479
Speaker 1: that people are constantly having in Atlanta. This is a

1916
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:49,120
Speaker 1: conversation I've been having with people NonStop ever since coming here,

1917
01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:51,760
Speaker 1: ever since before coming here. I you know, this is

1918
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:55,360
Speaker 1: something I don't want to just parachute into someone else's city.

1919
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:59,200
Speaker 1: I had conversations with multiple people before before coming over.

1920
01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:02,080
Speaker 1: There's a few aspects to this. The amount of people

1921
01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:04,640
Speaker 1: doing stuff, and you know how many people are in

1922
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,320
Speaker 1: the forest, not a not a giant number of people.

1923
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:10,000
Speaker 1: There's not hundreds of people living in the woods. There's

1924
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:14,880
Speaker 1: there's not there's there's not there's not tons of people. Um. Uh.

1925
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 1: An intentional media strategy has been a part of this

1926
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:24,040
Speaker 1: movement since the beginning. UM, even among the insurrectionary anarchists

1927
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:27,400
Speaker 1: who are here. Uh, this is this has been something

1928
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:31,840
Speaker 1: that people have been you know, working on as as

1929
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 1: a part of a decentralized movement, having conversations about. Uh.

1930
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,320
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of There's been coverage in the

1931
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:43,720
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone that people here seem to be pretty happy with. UM. Yeah,

1932
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:46,200
Speaker 1: it was very and the Guardian also published. People have

1933
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:49,120
Speaker 1: been people have been pretty happy article. People have been

1934
01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:52,800
Speaker 1: very pretty happy with coverage from the Guardian. Um, there's

1935
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: a people have been pretty happy with some stuff from

1936
01:49:55,000 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 1: a J plus. Um. People have been um, decent lee

1937
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,680
Speaker 1: happy with the work that I've done on this. But

1938
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:07,120
Speaker 1: based on many conversation dozens and dozens of conversations I

1939
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:12,000
Speaker 1: have I've had with people here. UM, Ultimately, I don't

1940
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: for what for what cops are doing in the forest.

1941
01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 1: I don't think there seems to be a clear correlation

1942
01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:24,600
Speaker 1: between media coverage happening of stuff of of you know,

1943
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:27,759
Speaker 1: the movement and cops response to the forest. There doesn't,

1944
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 1: there does, there's no linked timeline there. Cops are doing

1945
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,040
Speaker 1: stuff in the forest because they want the forest clearance

1946
01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 1: that they can build their police training, their police training facility.

1947
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:40,200
Speaker 1: From what I've talked with people, the amount of pressure

1948
01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:43,599
Speaker 1: that has been caused by media covering the forest has

1949
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:47,639
Speaker 1: not only elongated the construction process, elongated the the amount

1950
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 1: that stuff that they're that they're able to do. It's

1951
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 1: it is, it has it has made it harder because

1952
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:55,240
Speaker 1: this is this this is not a very popular proposal.

1953
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 1: Even even before the encampments started, it was estimated that,

1954
01:50:59,120 --> 01:51:02,519
Speaker 1: like people in Atlanta were not for this, we're not

1955
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:05,840
Speaker 1: for the construction of this facility. So I think people

1956
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:09,240
Speaker 1: people make a lot of intentional media choices. That's not

1957
01:51:09,360 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 1: to say that there isn't also um intentionally harmful actors

1958
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:18,479
Speaker 1: who are trying to frame this as Atlanta burning down

1959
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:22,880
Speaker 1: Atlanta and disorder Antifa taking over sections of Atlanta. That

1960
01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:25,639
Speaker 1: is absolutely another part of it. But there's a very

1961
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,400
Speaker 1: people here have a very clear distinction between between um

1962
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:33,559
Speaker 1: bad actors between people who are you know, providing accurate, fair,

1963
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 1: coverage of what's going on. UM, and then you know

1964
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:38,160
Speaker 1: people who are just out to profit, which is you know,

1965
01:51:38,200 --> 01:51:41,920
Speaker 1: like a lot of like local TV channels. UM, there's there.

1966
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:45,879
Speaker 1: I think stuff that happened on the protests on Saturdays

1967
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:49,240
Speaker 1: is a good example. There's this far right account that

1968
01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to name, um at least not yet.

1969
01:51:52,400 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 1: I might. I might talk about it in the future.

1970
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,600
Speaker 1: UM who you know, tries to collect information on on protesters.

1971
01:51:57,680 --> 01:52:00,559
Speaker 1: They had there, They have someone on the on two films.

1972
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:03,719
Speaker 1: They also a really good aggregate of like random people's

1973
01:52:03,880 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: instagram and TikTok's or snapchats of you know, filming filming

1974
01:52:07,479 --> 01:52:12,679
Speaker 1: people from unfortunate angles. UM. The local local TV like Fox,

1975
01:52:12,840 --> 01:52:15,439
Speaker 1: like the like the local Fox news station, you know,

1976
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:19,160
Speaker 1: tries to get as much sensational footage of crimes as possible.

1977
01:52:19,720 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 1: And you know, people people, to the best their ability,

1978
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:25,000
Speaker 1: well you know, try to try to block them off

1979
01:52:25,040 --> 01:52:27,280
Speaker 1: with like umbrellas if they see that happening, but you know,

1980
01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:31,920
Speaker 1: you can it's it's me. There's definitely a clear tension

1981
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:34,439
Speaker 1: that people in the movement do not want the media

1982
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:38,599
Speaker 1: narratives around this to solely be decided by the state

1983
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:42,080
Speaker 1: and be decided against people who are in clear opposition

1984
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:46,160
Speaker 1: to them. That is, that is absolutely something that people

1985
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 1: are putting and putting attention in. Uh. They just that's

1986
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,120
Speaker 1: because that that creates a lot of really really harmful scenarios.

1987
01:52:54,160 --> 01:52:56,679
Speaker 1: Because there's the state itself is already a pretty powerful

1988
01:52:56,840 --> 01:53:00,520
Speaker 1: propaganda machine. Already a lot of local news just agitates

1989
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:03,479
Speaker 1: state talking points. Right, this is the idea of the

1990
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:06,679
Speaker 1: fourth Estate. There is does seem to be a pretty

1991
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:09,599
Speaker 1: a distinction between stuff like the fourth Estate and stuff

1992
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:12,680
Speaker 1: like the derivative idea of the fifth Estate of being

1993
01:53:12,760 --> 01:53:16,599
Speaker 1: more of like the people's voice for for for for these,

1994
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:19,720
Speaker 1: for these sorts of movements. Also in that vein there's

1995
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:23,600
Speaker 1: stuff like the Atlanta People's Press, which is like decentralized

1996
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:28,200
Speaker 1: media collective UM run by a lot of like rad

1997
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 1: people who who who helped to coordinate media coverage, who

1998
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:35,960
Speaker 1: helped to coordinate UM stuff with I mean they have

1999
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:38,479
Speaker 1: they have worked with people, They've worked with us on

2000
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:41,960
Speaker 1: our on the on the history of the old Atlanta

2001
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,519
Speaker 1: prison farm. So I would say there's a lot of

2002
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:49,960
Speaker 1: thought put into media strategy UM and not like in

2003
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 1: like a Libby like optics way, but like actual effective

2004
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:57,439
Speaker 1: media strategy that will improve material conditions and will help

2005
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:02,400
Speaker 1: push the goals of the movement forward, the goal being

2006
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:05,519
Speaker 1: that the construction of cop City does does not continue.

2007
01:54:05,840 --> 01:54:08,200
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of thought going into that and

2008
01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:11,800
Speaker 1: they and that is viewed as another like that that

2009
01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:15,679
Speaker 1: is another wing of of the effort. Right, There's there's

2010
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:18,599
Speaker 1: stuff like the encampments, there's stuff like sabotage, there's stuff

2011
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 1: like protests. There's stuff like you know, like a a

2012
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:24,400
Speaker 1: very above board stuff you know that like very u

2013
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, like a of above grand organizations will do

2014
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 1: like you know, writing campaigns, calling campaigns and media strategy

2015
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:35,400
Speaker 1: is another angle of this because to completely give up

2016
01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: the public perception of what's going on to the state

2017
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,920
Speaker 1: is seen as a bad thing. So, but this is

2018
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:47,560
Speaker 1: this is absolutely a contentious topic. I think people in

2019
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 1: Atlanta have a lot of nuanced conversations about this, and

2020
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 1: media stuff is handled with a lot more intention here

2021
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 1: than it has been in the Pacific Northwest. Um, that

2022
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:02,240
Speaker 1: is my that is my subject of opinion. But based

2023
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 1: on based on it's a smaller community, so I think

2024
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:08,880
Speaker 1: maybe it's easier. It does seem like there's more solidarity

2025
01:55:08,960 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 1: within the community and a shared vision. I wouldn't say

2026
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 1: that's true. There is the community is forced to reinforce itself.

2027
01:55:17,080 --> 01:55:20,800
Speaker 1: It is small enough that it cannot treat people as disposable. Um.

2028
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 1: It needs to maintain the people that it has. And

2029
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:26,240
Speaker 1: so people work through problems, people work through conflicts and

2030
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:28,560
Speaker 1: ways to actually resolve it and keep going to build

2031
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 1: everyone up and make them stronger. There's a shared community

2032
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:34,840
Speaker 1: space which I've I've been to a few times, um,

2033
01:55:34,840 --> 01:55:38,360
Speaker 1: and I think even just something like that is so

2034
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:43,200
Speaker 1: is so useful in being able to actually keep something

2035
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:46,320
Speaker 1: that resembles a community. You see a lot of anarchists,

2036
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:49,560
Speaker 1: um talk about how like community isn't a real thing.

2037
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:53,720
Speaker 1: There isn't actually community, um, you know. Or and in

2038
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:55,440
Speaker 1: a lot of places, I would say that's that's true.

2039
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:59,360
Speaker 1: A lot of places are just click driven, um you know, uh,

2040
01:56:00,280 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 1: drama it it honestly gets towards or like interesting conflict

2041
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 1: if if you don't want to use sword drama um.

2042
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: Whereas circular firing squad type ship. Yeah. Whereas here there

2043
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 1: is such a feeling of actual community like that that

2044
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,640
Speaker 1: actually is a thing here because people are forced to

2045
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 1: foster it. We're in the South we're surrounded where you

2046
01:56:20,920 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 1: know you're you're surrounded by a lot of people who

2047
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 1: want to hurt you. Um, Atlanta is the most surveilled city.

2048
01:56:26,520 --> 01:56:29,360
Speaker 1: There's so many different police forces. There's a police force

2049
01:56:29,400 --> 01:56:31,520
Speaker 1: for Fulton County, the police force for De Cab County,

2050
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:34,280
Speaker 1: it's a police force for Atlanta. There's the Georgia State Patrol.

2051
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:37,400
Speaker 1: There's the Georgia Buer of Investigation. There's the Georgia Department

2052
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 1: of Homeland Security. There's so many people, so many agencies

2053
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 1: are involved in this. There's so much, so much outwards

2054
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:48,600
Speaker 1: um threats to people that you really are forced to

2055
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 1: keep people, uh, keep people close and and trust the

2056
01:56:52,160 --> 01:56:56,480
Speaker 1: people around you because the consequences are quite dire. UM.

2057
01:56:56,560 --> 01:56:58,440
Speaker 1: So people take things very seriously and they put a

2058
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,240
Speaker 1: lot of thought into into a lot of into a

2059
01:57:01,280 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of things. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean that

2060
01:57:06,000 --> 01:57:09,680
Speaker 1: that also jells with my own experience in the South. Right,

2061
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:16,040
Speaker 1: it's it's easier to find communities of people who are

2062
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:21,040
Speaker 1: um doing anything kind of radical because there's that that

2063
01:57:21,160 --> 01:57:24,560
Speaker 1: bunker mentality. Right, you're under siege, you're surrounded on all sides,

2064
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:27,920
Speaker 1: and um, you know that that's very different when you

2065
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:31,440
Speaker 1: go to a place where there's kind of more like

2066
01:57:31,640 --> 01:57:34,080
Speaker 1: what what would be in other places, deviancy is more

2067
01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:38,120
Speaker 1: than norm um. And yeah, I guess that that is

2068
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:41,120
Speaker 1: probably has a lot to do with the fact that

2069
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:44,960
Speaker 1: this forest defense has so far been so successful in

2070
01:57:45,040 --> 01:57:49,480
Speaker 1: delaying the construction of this facility which it which it

2071
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 1: has construction construction deadlines continue to have been passed and

2072
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 1: been passed and been passed. It has the very least

2073
01:57:57,680 --> 01:58:01,480
Speaker 1: showed that stuff like this can be resisted and significantly delayed.

2074
01:58:01,880 --> 01:58:04,920
Speaker 1: And at this point they're projecting construction won't be complete

2075
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:08,480
Speaker 1: for about four more years. And again these deadlines keep

2076
01:58:08,520 --> 01:58:10,320
Speaker 1: getting pushed back and back, and that is really what

2077
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:13,080
Speaker 1: the movement is trying to do, keep these deadlines getting

2078
01:58:13,080 --> 01:58:15,680
Speaker 1: pushed back and back until they just give up on

2079
01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:17,440
Speaker 1: the project or try to put it somewhere else. And

2080
01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 1: if they try to put somewhere and if they try

2081
01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:21,560
Speaker 1: to put it somewhere else, then the forest was defended.

2082
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:23,760
Speaker 1: But then there's still the top cop city aspect of

2083
01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:25,880
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, it can go somewhere else, but we

2084
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:27,480
Speaker 1: we don't want it there at all. And then at

2085
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:30,920
Speaker 1: that point the movement would change, you know, very significantly.

2086
01:58:31,200 --> 01:58:33,240
Speaker 1: But in terms of the defend the Atlanta Forest aspect

2087
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:36,400
Speaker 1: of this. Right, the whole goal is to make to

2088
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:40,120
Speaker 1: make this as unenticing as possible. UM. And there's a

2089
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:44,400
Speaker 1: multitude of strategies involved in that UM, including stuff like propaganda,

2090
01:58:44,480 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 1: madget prop media strategy, sabotage, direct action calling campaigns, stuff

2091
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:54,520
Speaker 1: about pressuring the construction agencies, all all those sort of things.

2092
01:58:55,360 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 1: That's so much more because what you're talking about is

2093
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:00,600
Speaker 1: is what we call, in sort of calm flick studies,

2094
01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:04,920
Speaker 1: a strategy of friction, right, UM, and and so much

2095
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,320
Speaker 1: there's so always so much focus on kind of these

2096
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:11,919
Speaker 1: like we had in Portland, and these like grand moments

2097
01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:15,520
Speaker 1: that are are very visually spectacular of resistance, but what

2098
01:59:15,680 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 1: actually what actually wins Because the state has the ability

2099
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 1: to take a lot of hits, it is a it

2100
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:25,880
Speaker 1: is a durable force. And if you're going up against

2101
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 1: a durable force, the only way to win victories is

2102
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 1: to be durable yourself and to wear away at them.

2103
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:38,840
Speaker 1: It's it's friction, UM. And I think that's like, that's

2104
01:59:38,880 --> 01:59:41,920
Speaker 1: still the winning play is to keep up pressure. It's

2105
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:45,040
Speaker 1: just the kinds of pressure, especially now that they've cleared

2106
01:59:45,040 --> 01:59:47,560
Speaker 1: out the tree sitters and stuff. And now that we've

2107
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:49,920
Speaker 1: seen what they're going to do to people who are

2108
01:59:50,160 --> 01:59:54,000
Speaker 1: arrested at demonstrations, the kinds of friction that completely be

2109
01:59:54,160 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 1: applied have to change otherwise the movement's going to get

2110
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:01,280
Speaker 1: worn down before the state does. In this fight. Something

2111
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:06,320
Speaker 1: that Tortuguita has said is that the state is very

2112
02:00:06,360 --> 02:00:09,360
Speaker 1: good at doing violence. We we cannot we we cannot

2113
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:13,200
Speaker 1: beat the state at violence. The states, the state will

2114
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:16,680
Speaker 1: probably win that game. That's that's that's the entire point

2115
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:19,040
Speaker 1: of the state that like, the state has a monopoly

2116
02:00:19,120 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 1: on violence. That is the entire point. They will win that. Um.

2117
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:26,760
Speaker 1: But there but there are other ways where we can

2118
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:31,680
Speaker 1: see successes, and we have seen successes before. UM. So

2119
02:00:33,560 --> 02:00:37,000
Speaker 1: it's not over. It will probably grow and change. UM

2120
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:40,960
Speaker 1: what actually happens will remain to be seen. But I

2121
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:43,760
Speaker 1: am um just I'm prepping to go through a whole

2122
02:00:43,800 --> 02:00:47,800
Speaker 1: bunch of my audio files and uh and and and

2123
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:51,879
Speaker 1: piece and piece together kind of a pretty pretty distinct

2124
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:55,920
Speaker 1: deep dive. That is, it is a true a true

2125
02:00:55,960 --> 02:00:59,080
Speaker 1: successor to the to the original on the ground at

2126
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:01,160
Speaker 1: the Defend the Atlanta Force episodes that I did last

2127
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:04,200
Speaker 1: May so well, I look forward to that. I'm sure

2128
02:01:04,320 --> 02:01:07,720
Speaker 1: I know everyone else's as well. Um, thank you for

2129
02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:11,600
Speaker 1: going over there and uh and being in the thick

2130
02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:15,120
Speaker 1: of it, and um, yeah, we'll we'll continue to cover

2131
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:19,080
Speaker 1: this story as best we can. But whatever comes in

2132
02:01:19,160 --> 02:01:38,280
Speaker 1: the future, all right, I think that's an episode. Welcome

2133
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:40,800
Speaker 1: to Dick It happened here, a podcast about things falling

2134
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:43,760
Speaker 1: apart and how to put them back together again. I'm

2135
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:46,040
Speaker 1: your host, me along and today I am returning to

2136
02:01:46,160 --> 02:01:49,160
Speaker 1: my roots and the ceed criminal anarchist hacker underground, which

2137
02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:51,960
Speaker 1: has gotten much less ceed and somehow even more gay

2138
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:56,120
Speaker 1: since I was last there and with with me to

2139
02:01:56,160 --> 02:01:59,080
Speaker 1: talk about this is Maya Arson Crime You who is

2140
02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:01,960
Speaker 1: most recently famous is the person who owned an airline

2141
02:02:02,040 --> 02:02:04,000
Speaker 1: so hard they got a copy of the fucking no

2142
02:02:04,240 --> 02:02:12,400
Speaker 1: flight list, which is yeah, just just first any things. Yeah, so, Maya,

2143
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:13,840
Speaker 1: how how are how are you? How are you doing?

2144
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:18,800
Speaker 1: Being deluged with when Trilli an interview requests and um,

2145
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's not my first time experiencing like a

2146
02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 1: big news cycle, but this is certainly the biggest one yet.

2147
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:29,360
Speaker 1: It's I'm surprised that this is bigger than the one

2148
02:02:29,440 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 1: life Happy for with other stories. Yeah, but I feel

2149
02:02:32,560 --> 02:02:35,880
Speaker 1: like becoming a transfermime. At the same time, I have

2150
02:02:36,080 --> 02:02:40,960
Speaker 1: like a national security new cycle going on probably helped

2151
02:02:41,000 --> 02:02:44,760
Speaker 1: a bit. I'm I'm I'm very happy for weed Cat,

2152
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:48,160
Speaker 1: like that that that that cat did, like that every

2153
02:02:48,240 --> 02:02:50,240
Speaker 1: every single other thing that has happened to weed Cat

2154
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:54,680
Speaker 1: is like done that thing dirty. But I'm happy for Yeah,

2155
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:57,040
Speaker 1: we kind is now just like a hacking icon and

2156
02:02:57,160 --> 02:02:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm so here for it. Did he see like like

2157
02:03:00,040 --> 02:03:03,280
Speaker 1: like just like like fifteen minutes before we got uncalled

2158
02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:06,720
Speaker 1: there's now a like Bengle meme from the SCP Foundation

2159
02:03:06,920 --> 02:03:10,720
Speaker 1: on Oh my god, they commissioned an artist to make

2160
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:14,440
Speaker 1: a like it has just turned into a thing now

2161
02:03:14,720 --> 02:03:16,880
Speaker 1: like that that's the way. It's so good. It's not

2162
02:03:17,000 --> 02:03:19,680
Speaker 1: even it's not even like the whole hacking story anymore.

2163
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:22,120
Speaker 1: It's just the fact that I tingled into a meme

2164
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 1: like how how Yeah, and especially that Bengal turned into

2165
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 1: a meme because that started as a like discord in

2166
02:03:28,960 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 1: joke like that that's all it was. And now it's

2167
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:35,360
Speaker 1: the name of this cat. But okay, so we should

2168
02:03:35,360 --> 02:03:36,960
Speaker 1: explain for it for people, for people who don't know

2169
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:39,440
Speaker 1: what this cat is. This is the Pokemon spriggary sprig.

2170
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:44,280
Speaker 1: How do you? I don't know how to properly pronounce it.

2171
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 1: It's it's Italian. I'm under no obligation to pronounce an

2172
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:53,880
Speaker 1: Italian sounding thing correctly. It's fine. Yeah, it's the wheat cat.

2173
02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:57,560
Speaker 1: Like wheat cat and Bengle are now the only two

2174
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:03,400
Speaker 1: acceptable names for this that the Yeah, but in in

2175
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:05,800
Speaker 1: in in the blog where you went through and talked

2176
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:08,840
Speaker 1: about how you got the no filist by owning this thing,

2177
02:04:09,120 --> 02:04:13,920
Speaker 1: you posted a picture of of of this. Yeah, I

2178
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:16,800
Speaker 1: did actually like take that picture while I was like

2179
02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:20,080
Speaker 1: hacking this stuff and like talking in some like small

2180
02:04:20,160 --> 02:04:23,120
Speaker 1: friends discord about it, and I just posted that together

2181
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:26,800
Speaker 1: with like the phrase this aviation should get serious. That's

2182
02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:29,000
Speaker 1: why that's also in the blog. I expected that to

2183
02:04:29,160 --> 02:04:31,880
Speaker 1: become the meme that blows up that this aviation ship

2184
02:04:32,240 --> 02:04:37,520
Speaker 1: gets serious, because that's just so stupid. Yeah, but I

2185
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:40,240
Speaker 1: guess Bengle it is. And that's funny because yeah, it

2186
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:42,840
Speaker 1: was just an in choke nonsense word and now the

2187
02:04:43,040 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 1: entire world knows about it and it's like a transferm thing.

2188
02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:51,000
Speaker 1: It rules, it rules. Yeah, So okay, I guess we

2189
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:54,440
Speaker 1: should talk about what actually you did, so I I

2190
02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:57,640
Speaker 1: am not a very technical person. I'm out here defined

2191
02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:03,040
Speaker 1: like defying transcise stereotypes by such being asset coding. Um So,

2192
02:05:03,240 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 1: my my understanding of what happened is you were browsing

2193
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:08,720
Speaker 1: a list of servers that are cocking to the Internet

2194
02:05:08,800 --> 02:05:11,200
Speaker 1: that you can use through sort of like various search

2195
02:05:11,280 --> 02:05:14,400
Speaker 1: engines that do this, and you stop. You stumbled upon

2196
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:18,120
Speaker 1: the server that belongs to commute Air and then they

2197
02:05:18,240 --> 02:05:21,160
Speaker 1: just like I had a bunch of hard coded privileges there,

2198
02:05:21,320 --> 02:05:26,600
Speaker 1: and like us, it's it's still it's still funny to me.

2199
02:05:26,840 --> 02:05:30,040
Speaker 1: How Like I realized what it was because I saw,

2200
02:05:30,120 --> 02:05:32,400
Speaker 1: like there word eight cars and stuff, and I was like, wait,

2201
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:35,880
Speaker 1: that that reminds me of like mentor Pilot YouTube videos,

2202
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:39,000
Speaker 1: because of course I'm an autistic transfer and binge watch

2203
02:05:39,280 --> 02:05:43,200
Speaker 1: mentor Pilot while eating dinner. Um So, so that is

2204
02:05:43,280 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 1: the only reason I clocked it as like an aviation thing,

2205
02:05:46,240 --> 02:05:48,600
Speaker 1: and that's something I should dig into deeper, because, like

2206
02:05:49,080 --> 02:05:51,879
Speaker 1: you can imagine, like while I'm going through these search results,

2207
02:05:52,000 --> 02:05:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm looking at like hundreds of servers in a day,

2208
02:05:54,520 --> 02:05:56,680
Speaker 1: and most of the stuff I decided is boring or

2209
02:05:56,760 --> 02:05:58,680
Speaker 1: it was too easy to hack, so I'm not going

2210
02:05:58,800 --> 02:06:02,680
Speaker 1: further because I have a h d um So yeah,

2211
02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:04,880
Speaker 1: and then this cause it was like, wait, that's an

2212
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:09,200
Speaker 1: aviation word. I've heard that before. Um, So I take

2213
02:06:09,280 --> 02:06:13,200
Speaker 1: a little deeper and there were just passwords there, and

2214
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:17,040
Speaker 1: and then like two minutes after I found that server,

2215
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:19,880
Speaker 1: I was looking at like a car's messages, as in

2216
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:24,000
Speaker 1: like messaging between ground stations and the airplanes, and that

2217
02:06:24,240 --> 02:06:26,640
Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, this is a story, and started

2218
02:06:26,640 --> 02:06:29,560
Speaker 1: tweeting about it, looking for journalists to work with because

2219
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:32,200
Speaker 1: with stories like this, I like to work with journalists

2220
02:06:32,200 --> 02:06:34,200
Speaker 1: from the very start because I want to make sure

2221
02:06:34,240 --> 02:06:36,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't get wiped under the rock when I reported

2222
02:06:36,800 --> 02:06:40,120
Speaker 1: to a company. So I make sure that when I

2223
02:06:40,320 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 1: do reach out and get things fixed, I reach out

2224
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:46,800
Speaker 1: via journalists so that the company's not yet this is

2225
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:49,040
Speaker 1: being reported on, so they can't be like, yeah, we

2226
02:06:49,120 --> 02:06:51,400
Speaker 1: will fix it under the condition that you never tell

2227
02:06:51,440 --> 02:06:55,080
Speaker 1: anyone about our bad security. Because like the whole point

2228
02:06:55,160 --> 02:06:59,160
Speaker 1: of what I'm doing is exposing like the security issues,

2229
02:06:59,560 --> 02:07:02,640
Speaker 1: but also exposing yeah, with a political background at the

2230
02:07:02,720 --> 02:07:05,560
Speaker 1: end of the day. Yeah, And I guess like another thing,

2231
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many people sort of

2232
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:09,920
Speaker 1: are aware of this. But like another thing that has

2233
02:07:09,960 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 1: happened with people who have tried to go to companies

2234
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:13,800
Speaker 1: and been like, hey, here's the security thing is like

2235
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:17,320
Speaker 1: the company tries to like go after them criminally, like immediately,

2236
02:07:18,120 --> 02:07:23,160
Speaker 1: which sucks. Ass end is the worst. Yeah, so so

2237
02:07:23,400 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 1: so from that stand but it doesn't even matter if

2238
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:28,280
Speaker 1: I like do it, like this are actually reported to them,

2239
02:07:28,360 --> 02:07:30,920
Speaker 1: But this way I get to talk about the publicly

2240
02:07:31,040 --> 02:07:33,960
Speaker 1: and like that's important, not because I'm on cloud, like

2241
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:40,680
Speaker 1: I don't mind the cloud, but like yeah, yeah, and

2242
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:46,200
Speaker 1: so okay, so uh, there's there's been a lot of

2243
02:07:46,320 --> 02:07:48,720
Speaker 1: focus on the fact that you found the no fly

2244
02:07:48,880 --> 02:07:54,240
Speaker 1: list on there, which is very funny. But okay, why

2245
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:58,160
Speaker 1: like okay, one thing I'm trying to figure out why

2246
02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:00,480
Speaker 1: was there? Why were there just message used from like

2247
02:08:00,600 --> 02:08:03,360
Speaker 1: ground cruise to airplane just like sitting around on this

2248
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:07,280
Speaker 1: random server that's just like the exposed to the internet, right,

2249
02:08:07,480 --> 02:08:09,800
Speaker 1: so the messages weren't directly on that server, but like

2250
02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:13,160
Speaker 1: it's the server where they like for testing purposes, like

2251
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:16,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how much I can understand really, but

2252
02:08:17,040 --> 02:08:20,400
Speaker 1: where they like test the software automatically. And and so

2253
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:24,080
Speaker 1: there's all, and because of how they configured the server,

2254
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:26,960
Speaker 1: I could just have access to all the source code,

2255
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:30,680
Speaker 1: which included lots of passwords for example, for like the

2256
02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:34,800
Speaker 1: server that then had the car's messages on it. Okay,

2257
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:38,520
Speaker 1: but yeah, or access credentials for APIs that would have

2258
02:08:38,560 --> 02:08:43,600
Speaker 1: followed me to update the crew and are which like,

2259
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:46,360
Speaker 1: if you think about that's almost the bigger story that

2260
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,280
Speaker 1: ye like at least theoretically could have been able to

2261
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:55,960
Speaker 1: change crew cruise because like that's the real terrorism risk. Yeah,

2262
02:08:56,240 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 1: like if I'm just like if I'm just allowed to

2263
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:02,720
Speaker 1: spell it out like that, like that, that's the dream

2264
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:06,520
Speaker 1: of any Yeah. Yeah, like I mean, you know, you know,

2265
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:08,040
Speaker 1: like I'm One of the things you were talking about

2266
02:09:08,080 --> 02:09:10,240
Speaker 1: when when you're writing about this was that like journalists

2267
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:11,960
Speaker 1: thought that you were the one who had like caused

2268
02:09:11,960 --> 02:09:13,520
Speaker 1: all of the flight delays. It was like, no, that

2269
02:09:13,640 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 1: was just their computer breaking. No, But yeah, like that

2270
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:19,200
Speaker 1: was just funny because I didn't even know the thing

2271
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:22,640
Speaker 1: with yes, with the f a A happened. But I

2272
02:09:22,800 --> 02:09:25,120
Speaker 1: was like tweeting about, oh, I have a big aviation

2273
02:09:25,240 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 1: story any churnal that's interested it's like a security breach,

2274
02:09:28,200 --> 02:09:29,720
Speaker 1: and people were like, wait, what did you two to

2275
02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:31,080
Speaker 1: the f A A And it was like hot, what

2276
02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:34,920
Speaker 1: f A A. Oh so that happened, Like I am

2277
02:09:35,000 --> 02:09:38,000
Speaker 1: still not up to date in US anymore. Yeah, I

2278
02:09:38,080 --> 02:09:40,000
Speaker 1: mean so for people who don't know what that story is.

2279
02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:44,840
Speaker 1: So basically, the Federal Aviation Administration had a computer problem.

2280
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:47,000
Speaker 1: It was very the very very short version data computer

2281
02:09:47,080 --> 02:09:49,520
Speaker 1: problem and this grounded like a ship ton of flights

2282
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:54,160
Speaker 1: because the huge like computer bottlenecks where if you know,

2283
02:09:54,240 --> 02:09:57,120
Speaker 1: it was we saw this over like like like last

2284
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:59,080
Speaker 1: month when there was that when all of those flights

2285
02:09:59,160 --> 02:10:02,440
Speaker 1: got down by uh Southwestern because the computer system just

2286
02:10:02,480 --> 02:10:08,080
Speaker 1: went down. It's it's the same thing except us y. Yeah,

2287
02:10:08,200 --> 02:10:10,920
Speaker 1: but it's it's just funny because yeah, I first found

2288
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:15,240
Speaker 1: this server like exactly the day after Like that was

2289
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:17,760
Speaker 1: literally a day after the f a A incident, So

2290
02:10:18,000 --> 02:10:21,200
Speaker 1: people were rightly assuming that that was me, which it

2291
02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:24,880
Speaker 1: obviously wasn't, but like it would have been cool. Yeah,

2292
02:10:25,040 --> 02:10:27,760
Speaker 1: But it's also like it is very disturbed to be

2293
02:10:27,920 --> 02:10:29,240
Speaker 1: like this kind of stuff is just sitting there and

2294
02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:32,440
Speaker 1: like someone yeah could just like theoretically going and screw

2295
02:10:32,520 --> 02:10:34,920
Speaker 1: with all of this stuff, which is like and then

2296
02:10:35,000 --> 02:10:36,720
Speaker 1: also the fact that like there was just all of

2297
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:39,480
Speaker 1: like the personal information of all of the pilots on there,

2298
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:43,000
Speaker 1: Like what the hell like that is? Yeah that yeah,

2299
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 1: it was terrifying. Yeah, it's it is crazy how much

2300
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:49,520
Speaker 1: stuff is just out there, and like that's part of

2301
02:10:49,600 --> 02:10:54,080
Speaker 1: what I tried to show with my work. It's just, yeah,

2302
02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:56,360
Speaker 1: there's so much stuff out there and it's just waiting

2303
02:10:56,440 --> 02:10:58,720
Speaker 1: to be found. And I both mean that in terms

2304
02:10:58,760 --> 02:11:01,560
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, you can find ship if you try to,

2305
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:04,440
Speaker 1: but also in the sense of things are not secure,

2306
02:11:04,640 --> 02:11:08,560
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like all the systems are like entire life

2307
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:11,839
Speaker 1: depend on nowadays, not none of those systems are really secure.

2308
02:11:11,920 --> 02:11:16,600
Speaker 1: They're entirely dependent on like one system administrator who doesn't

2309
02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:20,800
Speaker 1: get paid enough. Our entire like computer systems depend on

2310
02:11:20,920 --> 02:11:24,880
Speaker 1: like a bunch of furies being motivated enough to do

2311
02:11:25,000 --> 02:11:28,000
Speaker 1: their work. Uh So, basically, like the moral of the

2312
02:11:28,120 --> 02:11:33,720
Speaker 1: story is pay furies well. And yeah, yeah, and this

2313
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:36,080
Speaker 1: is probably looking everything that I was thinking about when

2314
02:11:36,120 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 1: I was looking at this, which is like, you know, okay,

2315
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:41,080
Speaker 1: so like when when when I was like a teenager,

2316
02:11:41,160 --> 02:11:42,600
Speaker 1: Like one one of the things I think I was

2317
02:11:42,640 --> 02:11:44,520
Speaker 1: the most wrong about that I believed was like I

2318
02:11:44,680 --> 02:11:48,720
Speaker 1: actually genuinely believed that like automating cars was a good

2319
02:11:48,760 --> 02:11:51,240
Speaker 1: idea because humans are really really bad at driving. And

2320
02:11:51,280 --> 02:11:52,880
Speaker 1: then and then, and then I had to learn the program,

2321
02:11:52,960 --> 02:11:55,200
Speaker 1: and I had to like see scientists code, and I

2322
02:11:55,280 --> 02:11:58,760
Speaker 1: had to I I I opened a program and there's

2323
02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:00,480
Speaker 1: a section of it that no one knows how it works.

2324
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:02,480
Speaker 1: And I look, I look at the notes, and the

2325
02:12:02,560 --> 02:12:04,760
Speaker 1: notes say, I don't I didn't write this. I don't

2326
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 1: know how it works. This is produced. This is produced

2327
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:09,800
Speaker 1: at four am on like like seven billigrams of caffeine.

2328
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:14,440
Speaker 1: And that's like, yeah, on at least caffeine, if not

2329
02:12:14,560 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 1: the Yeah, well these are these were astronomers, so I

2330
02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:22,240
Speaker 1: I think it was actually just a lot of caffeine

2331
02:12:22,320 --> 02:12:25,400
Speaker 1: and not means but yeah, like you know. And then

2332
02:12:25,440 --> 02:12:28,160
Speaker 1: I had the realization the only single thing that we

2333
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:31,960
Speaker 1: as humans are worse at than driving is coding exactly, yeah,

2334
02:12:32,120 --> 02:12:33,840
Speaker 1: we are. We are even worse at that. And then

2335
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:36,800
Speaker 1: the other thing we're also very bad at is labeling data,

2336
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:39,720
Speaker 1: which is like the whole thing machine learning is dependent,

2337
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:44,960
Speaker 1: like because like the entire intelligence of like an automateive car,

2338
02:12:45,280 --> 02:12:48,120
Speaker 1: like a self driving car, is entirely dependent on how

2339
02:12:48,200 --> 02:12:53,200
Speaker 1: intelligent the like underpaid workers and Kenya are getting paid

2340
02:12:53,280 --> 02:12:57,040
Speaker 1: like two bucks an hour to label things as car, human,

2341
02:12:57,200 --> 02:13:00,720
Speaker 1: and child and then make moral this sessions of whether

2342
02:13:00,880 --> 02:13:04,360
Speaker 1: or not those should get run over. Um like yeah,

2343
02:13:04,840 --> 02:13:06,240
Speaker 1: like this is you know what one of one of

2344
02:13:06,320 --> 02:13:08,080
Speaker 1: my sort of political things that I'm coming to is

2345
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:11,320
Speaker 1: I I think the only person people who should be

2346
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:13,160
Speaker 1: allowed to do machine learning are astronomers, and no one

2347
02:13:13,160 --> 02:13:15,360
Speaker 1: else should be allowed to do it. And even they

2348
02:13:15,880 --> 02:13:17,000
Speaker 1: know because they have to. They like they have a

2349
02:13:17,080 --> 02:13:19,280
Speaker 1: legitimate reason, which is that like they actually a they're

2350
02:13:19,320 --> 02:13:21,240
Speaker 1: doing a bunch of big dates, like most of astronomy

2351
02:13:21,280 --> 02:13:24,680
Speaker 1: is just big data analysis and then be like the

2352
02:13:24,800 --> 02:13:28,360
Speaker 1: the the analysis itself doesn't really hurt anyone. Uh, you

2353
02:13:28,480 --> 02:13:30,960
Speaker 1: you can argue about putting the telescopes, but like you're not,

2354
02:13:31,160 --> 02:13:36,160
Speaker 1: You're not, Like yeah, just like anything that involves humans

2355
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:40,920
Speaker 1: probably yeah, also involves AI in anyone. Yeah that's terrible idea,

2356
02:13:41,320 --> 02:13:43,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, I guess, I guess. Okay, So circling back

2357
02:13:43,440 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 1: around to the point I was going to make and

2358
02:13:44,840 --> 02:13:48,960
Speaker 1: then forgot distracted talking about AI because such as the world.

2359
02:13:49,320 --> 02:13:52,840
Speaker 1: Um yeah, so you know, it's really remarkable to me,

2360
02:13:52,960 --> 02:13:56,120
Speaker 1: like how little technical skill you need to just like

2361
02:13:56,400 --> 02:14:01,120
Speaker 1: absolutely own enormous corporations and governments and you know. But

2362
02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: but the other thing that that that struck me about this,

2363
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:07,880
Speaker 1: that I've been thinking about for a while is that, like, Okay,

2364
02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:09,880
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have how easy hacking is,

2365
02:14:10,080 --> 02:14:12,120
Speaker 1: like like this server stuff is like easier than the

2366
02:14:12,160 --> 02:14:13,680
Speaker 1: stuff that I remember back in the day, which is

2367
02:14:13,720 --> 02:14:19,280
Speaker 1: a lot of like people like you, someone somewhere long

2368
02:14:19,320 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 1: ago in a galaxy far far away wrote like a

2369
02:14:21,640 --> 02:14:23,440
Speaker 1: script and then you just copy and paste it into

2370
02:14:23,480 --> 02:14:25,600
Speaker 1: like every single text box on a web page, and

2371
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:29,440
Speaker 1: like that's I think, like that's probably maybe like more

2372
02:14:29,560 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 1: hackery quote unquote than just like looking through a list

2373
02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:35,000
Speaker 1: of servers. But like even that is like the level

2374
02:14:35,040 --> 02:14:38,280
Speaker 1: of technical sophistication is so low or or you know,

2375
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:42,000
Speaker 1: you don't need technically it's just needs to be stupid

2376
02:14:42,120 --> 02:14:44,520
Speaker 1: enough to pull it up. Like yeah, but but you know,

2377
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:46,560
Speaker 1: but the thing that I realized about this and I

2378
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:48,280
Speaker 1: was thinking about this was like, on the one hand,

2379
02:14:48,440 --> 02:14:50,600
Speaker 1: the level technical sophistication for this is extreme below. On

2380
02:14:50,640 --> 02:14:52,920
Speaker 1: the other hand, one of the sort of like like

2381
02:14:53,040 --> 02:14:55,240
Speaker 1: one of one of the sort of trends of the

2382
02:14:55,600 --> 02:14:59,280
Speaker 1: way capitalism has been distributing digital technology, which is sort

2383
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 1: of by apping it, like by by which has been

2384
02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:04,680
Speaker 1: packing it into apps and these closed guarding ecosystems and

2385
02:15:04,880 --> 02:15:08,720
Speaker 1: like putting uys in between you and like what like

2386
02:15:09,160 --> 02:15:12,160
Speaker 1: you and what's actually happening in your computer has been

2387
02:15:12,200 --> 02:15:14,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's been designing a way to make

2388
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:18,160
Speaker 1: a quote unquote consumer friendly, but also it's been designed

2389
02:15:18,240 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 1: away such like successive generations of computer users just have

2390
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:25,280
Speaker 1: less and less knowledge of how their devices technology actually work. Yeah,

2391
02:15:25,320 --> 02:15:28,440
Speaker 1: that's like like there's that whole thing of like about

2392
02:15:28,520 --> 02:15:33,240
Speaker 1: how how like younger kids just don't understand the concept

2393
02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:36,920
Speaker 1: of faults anymore because like that's completely abstracted away on

2394
02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:41,080
Speaker 1: like smartphones. Yea chromebook in particularly, which I I genuinely

2395
02:15:41,120 --> 02:15:43,760
Speaker 1: think we need to ban chromebooks and schools like just

2396
02:15:43,920 --> 02:15:48,440
Speaker 1: just like for for for the sake of human Yeah,

2397
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:52,680
Speaker 1: it's awful, Like, oh god, they're the worst. Yeah, I

2398
02:15:52,760 --> 02:15:54,360
Speaker 1: don't know, Like at the end of today, That's what

2399
02:15:54,440 --> 02:15:56,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to say earlier about like how easy it

2400
02:15:56,560 --> 02:15:58,840
Speaker 1: is to hack all the paper operations and stuff. And

2401
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:00,840
Speaker 1: it's just like the answers are asked to why it's

2402
02:16:00,920 --> 02:16:05,440
Speaker 1: just capitalism, It's it's cheaper not to deficit about cybersecurity.

2403
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 1: It's cheaper to just pay when you get hacked than

2404
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:13,160
Speaker 1: to like secure your ship upfront, because like the only

2405
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,880
Speaker 1: people that will really suffer is like your customers and

2406
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:19,480
Speaker 1: your empathies, and they can forget your your shareholders, they're

2407
02:16:19,520 --> 02:16:22,560
Speaker 1: gonna be just fine, you know. And you look at

2408
02:16:22,560 --> 02:16:24,520
Speaker 1: the way the regulatory structure works is like, okay, so

2409
02:16:24,600 --> 02:16:26,240
Speaker 1: what what what happens if you get in trouble of

2410
02:16:26,280 --> 02:16:30,160
Speaker 1: something like this? Will the government takes a cut? That's it? Yeah, Yeah,

2411
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:33,760
Speaker 1: that's that's it. Like it's literally, it's it's literally like

2412
02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:37,760
Speaker 1: you can budget getting there. There is cyber insurance now

2413
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:41,680
Speaker 1: you can get insured against getting hacked. Like like it's

2414
02:16:41,760 --> 02:16:45,080
Speaker 1: it's just capitalism out of work. And I feel like

2415
02:16:45,160 --> 02:16:46,360
Speaker 1: one of the things that one of the things that

2416
02:16:46,440 --> 02:16:49,560
Speaker 1: journalists have sort of I don't know and I understand

2417
02:16:49,640 --> 02:16:51,440
Speaker 1: why they focus on it, but I feel like there's

2418
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:54,160
Speaker 1: a lot of focus in in sort of like intech

2419
02:16:54,240 --> 02:16:56,880
Speaker 1: journalism and journalism on sort of hacking stuff in like

2420
02:16:57,000 --> 02:17:00,760
Speaker 1: the really big sophisticated like stut necks or what was

2421
02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:04,240
Speaker 1: the what was the more recent one I can remember, Like, yeah,

2422
02:17:04,240 --> 02:17:06,480
Speaker 1: like the were the really sort of convoluted trawling program

2423
02:17:06,520 --> 02:17:08,240
Speaker 1: and things that like you know, take nation state level

2424
02:17:08,280 --> 02:17:10,440
Speaker 1: of resources and it's like, well, yeah, you know this.

2425
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:12,000
Speaker 1: This was always the thing with like the with like

2426
02:17:12,160 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 1: the n s A, to where it's like, well, okay,

2427
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:15,840
Speaker 1: so the the the the the the the. On the

2428
02:17:15,959 --> 02:17:17,320
Speaker 1: on the one hand, the n s A does have

2429
02:17:17,520 --> 02:17:21,520
Speaker 1: enough money to like spend like fifty million dollars factoring

2430
02:17:21,600 --> 02:17:23,520
Speaker 1: one numbers like a break a bunch of encryption. On

2431
02:17:23,560 --> 02:17:27,199
Speaker 1: the other hand, like they can't just force us companies

2432
02:17:27,879 --> 02:17:31,480
Speaker 1: and and also give them access. And also like I

2433
02:17:31,520 --> 02:17:32,880
Speaker 1: don't know they can they can get most of this

2434
02:17:32,959 --> 02:17:35,560
Speaker 1: information because like some server admin in like a farm

2435
02:17:36,120 --> 02:17:39,199
Speaker 1: in like the middle of world, Nebraska, like misconfigured a file,

2436
02:17:39,480 --> 02:17:43,720
Speaker 1: like misconfigured a server. So like, you know, I don't know.

2437
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:46,080
Speaker 1: That's so that's what I find funny about the things

2438
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:49,480
Speaker 1: I find because I like almost exclusively go for like

2439
02:17:49,640 --> 02:17:52,480
Speaker 1: the low hanging fruit, because like, why why would I

2440
02:17:52,720 --> 02:17:55,160
Speaker 1: invest more effort when I can get the really big

2441
02:17:55,200 --> 02:17:58,640
Speaker 1: scoops like this. And also sometimes sometimes I do kind

2442
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:01,720
Speaker 1: of think about how, hey, you know, like maybe I

2443
02:18:01,840 --> 02:18:04,440
Speaker 1: just cut off access to the CIA. Maybe this was

2444
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:07,160
Speaker 1: like how the CIA got this access. Maybe maybe the

2445
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:10,880
Speaker 1: n s A was here obviously most likely not in

2446
02:18:11,000 --> 02:18:13,360
Speaker 1: most cases, but it's just a funny little thought of

2447
02:18:13,600 --> 02:18:17,280
Speaker 1: like who did I just kind of access by reporting this?

2448
02:18:17,840 --> 02:18:20,200
Speaker 1: I will say this, like I can't imagine that there

2449
02:18:20,320 --> 02:18:21,920
Speaker 1: isn't someone at the n s A and there isn't

2450
02:18:21,920 --> 02:18:23,760
Speaker 1: someone at the CIA whose job it is to do

2451
02:18:23,840 --> 02:18:26,240
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing you do and like scrolling server

2452
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,720
Speaker 1: list every day, like absolutely like like like that. That's

2453
02:18:29,760 --> 02:18:32,560
Speaker 1: why by now I you sue my like for the surgeon,

2454
02:18:32,600 --> 02:18:35,120
Speaker 1: since there's Showdown, which is like the famous U S one,

2455
02:18:35,160 --> 02:18:36,960
Speaker 1: which is why I still always say I found it

2456
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:39,760
Speaker 1: on show them, even though by now I use because

2457
02:18:39,800 --> 02:18:42,240
Speaker 1: Showdown has like half of like all U S I

2458
02:18:42,400 --> 02:18:45,720
Speaker 1: P centered and they have an artificial delay between finding

2459
02:18:45,800 --> 02:18:49,440
Speaker 1: the servers and showing them to you and have really

2460
02:18:49,520 --> 02:18:52,039
Speaker 1: bad search. And I'm pretty sure it's just because at

2461
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:54,560
Speaker 1: one point the US government got upset because they kept

2462
02:18:54,560 --> 02:18:59,120
Speaker 1: getting yeah uh and so yeah, but like the Chinese

2463
02:18:59,160 --> 02:19:02,840
Speaker 1: are very a link to give me all the that's

2464
02:19:03,080 --> 02:19:05,200
Speaker 1: that they too centsor a lot of Chinese I P

2465
02:19:05,360 --> 02:19:07,240
Speaker 1: s though, but I think a lot of that was

2466
02:19:07,440 --> 02:19:09,280
Speaker 1: so I was I was trying to figure out why

2467
02:19:09,360 --> 02:19:11,560
Speaker 1: that name was relation. But then I had this, I

2468
02:19:11,640 --> 02:19:14,640
Speaker 1: remembered that there was a story where some researcher did

2469
02:19:14,720 --> 02:19:16,280
Speaker 1: like almost the exact same thing you did to a

2470
02:19:16,360 --> 02:19:19,200
Speaker 1: Chinese security company and found out that they were doing

2471
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:22,000
Speaker 1: I guess what, exactly the same ship the U. S.

2472
02:19:22,040 --> 02:19:24,240
Speaker 1: Government was doing, which was using using a bunch of

2473
02:19:24,360 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: valance cameras to spy on Muslims. And it was like, well,

2474
02:19:27,160 --> 02:19:29,920
Speaker 1: this is great. Yeah, it's it's always like like it's

2475
02:19:29,959 --> 02:19:33,560
Speaker 1: always appointing and doing the same thing behind the scenes,

2476
02:19:33,760 --> 02:19:38,520
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, so we unfortunately going to have to

2477
02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:42,600
Speaker 1: take an ad break. I yeah, but then once we

2478
02:19:42,680 --> 02:19:45,680
Speaker 1: returned from capitalism, we will go back to opposing capitalism.

2479
02:19:46,600 --> 02:19:51,440
Speaker 1: Welcome to all right, and we're back. Yeah, so speaking

2480
02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:53,920
Speaker 1: of any capitalism that that was another thing I wanted

2481
02:19:53,959 --> 02:19:55,960
Speaker 1: to sort of talk about, which is said, okay, so

2482
02:19:56,080 --> 02:19:59,360
Speaker 1: like long long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away,

2483
02:19:59,440 --> 02:20:02,320
Speaker 1: little little little baby, fifteen year old Mia was radicalized,

2484
02:20:02,480 --> 02:20:05,560
Speaker 1: like back back, back back when I was overthrowing trying

2485
02:20:05,560 --> 02:20:09,039
Speaker 1: to overthrow my first government. It was um, a lot

2486
02:20:09,160 --> 02:20:11,240
Speaker 1: a lot of it was being in the same spheres,

2487
02:20:11,240 --> 02:20:12,920
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of anaitist hackers that were in

2488
02:20:12,959 --> 02:20:15,640
Speaker 1: the sort of like loose anonymous sphere. But you know,

2489
02:20:15,800 --> 02:20:18,280
Speaker 1: by by like sixteen, like that stuff was kind of

2490
02:20:18,280 --> 02:20:21,360
Speaker 1: falling apart, like partially because of in fighting, partially because

2491
02:20:21,400 --> 02:20:26,160
Speaker 1: of FED infiltration, partially because you know, like everyone arrested. Yeah, yeah,

2492
02:20:26,680 --> 02:20:29,520
Speaker 1: all the big players have been arrested like three years

2493
02:20:29,600 --> 02:20:31,600
Speaker 1: p yeah, and and you know, and the other thing

2494
02:20:31,640 --> 02:20:34,600
Speaker 1: that was going on too, I think was like Anonymous,

2495
02:20:35,480 --> 02:20:39,200
Speaker 1: like it's politics were always really incoherent. Like you you've

2496
02:20:39,240 --> 02:20:42,080
Speaker 1: had I don't know, you're just like everywhere. Like the

2497
02:20:42,160 --> 02:20:44,160
Speaker 1: thing I remember was there was a big split between

2498
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:48,520
Speaker 1: like basically the fascist and the anarchists between like like

2499
02:20:48,640 --> 02:20:51,880
Speaker 1: over Trump specifically, Like yeah, I think the thing with

2500
02:20:52,000 --> 02:20:54,520
Speaker 1: Anonymous is just like the way it started to just started.

2501
02:20:54,640 --> 02:20:57,640
Speaker 1: That's just like a group of trap was like, well

2502
02:20:57,760 --> 02:20:59,600
Speaker 1: okay that bic just to say, like, I mean, it

2503
02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:03,640
Speaker 1: makes instead. Anonymous is the way it is and has

2504
02:21:03,720 --> 02:21:06,240
Speaker 1: been the way it has been. I think it's still

2505
02:21:06,280 --> 02:21:10,040
Speaker 1: like important that it exists and that it motivates people. Uh,

2506
02:21:10,320 --> 02:21:14,040
Speaker 1: Like I have been involved with Anonymous before. There's the

2507
02:21:14,120 --> 02:21:16,520
Speaker 1: one thing I can talk about with like Operation mean

2508
02:21:16,640 --> 02:21:20,480
Speaker 1: Mar where we did like support things. Um that was

2509
02:21:20,560 --> 02:21:25,480
Speaker 1: shortly before my indictment. But yeah, it's it's interesting like

2510
02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:30,440
Speaker 1: Anonymous brings people together to do operations and that's what

2511
02:21:30,600 --> 02:21:34,640
Speaker 1: they do, and they can do pr for stuff. Uh yeah,

2512
02:21:34,680 --> 02:21:37,440
Speaker 1: I don't want to like to talk down on them,

2513
02:21:37,600 --> 02:21:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah no, but I think, like I think, especially especially

2514
02:21:40,400 --> 02:21:42,440
Speaker 1: like in life, when I was got involved with Chilse' thirteen,

2515
02:21:42,480 --> 02:21:46,039
Speaker 1: it was like like it was it was a lot different,

2516
02:21:46,120 --> 02:21:50,160
Speaker 1: like it was you know, like a yeah, it was.

2517
02:21:50,240 --> 02:21:52,080
Speaker 1: It was. It was like a thing. And also it

2518
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:55,120
Speaker 1: wasn't just like like it wasn't just that it was

2519
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:59,280
Speaker 1: sort of like Okay, we're like we're like trolling, trolling

2520
02:21:59,320 --> 02:22:01,760
Speaker 1: a government by taking down their web pages or whatever,

2521
02:22:01,879 --> 02:22:03,680
Speaker 1: like they were actually sort of there was like there

2522
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:06,679
Speaker 1: was real coordination between like people like you know, revolutionaries

2523
02:22:06,720 --> 02:22:10,120
Speaker 1: on the ground in like Egypt, Uran, Brazil and not

2524
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:12,840
Speaker 1: like that does still happen, Yeah, that does still happen,

2525
02:22:12,959 --> 02:22:14,920
Speaker 1: it's just less of a public thing. Like that's what

2526
02:22:15,080 --> 02:22:18,119
Speaker 1: we did in in as well as where we did

2527
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:20,640
Speaker 1: communications with people on the ground where we helped them

2528
02:22:20,760 --> 02:22:23,400
Speaker 1: communicate among each other, where we helped them keep the

2529
02:22:23,440 --> 02:22:26,640
Speaker 1: Internet got up even when the government tried to turn

2530
02:22:26,720 --> 02:22:30,440
Speaker 1: it off, other fund other other fun shenanigans like that,

2531
02:22:31,160 --> 02:22:33,760
Speaker 1: and also archival and that like just in case some

2532
02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:36,720
Speaker 1: kids that does decide to eat us literally every web

2533
02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:41,400
Speaker 1: page in the country, which is mostly nonsensical, but like, yeah,

2534
02:22:42,920 --> 02:22:46,000
Speaker 1: but I do find it interesting how like yeah, there's

2535
02:22:46,080 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 1: like the twenty twelve twenty generation that was mostly anonymous

2536
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:52,520
Speaker 1: tone terminated and now we're in like this new generation

2537
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:55,199
Speaker 1: where it's just small little groups. Yeah, and I wanted

2538
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:57,960
Speaker 1: to talk about that because it's much more decentralized. I

2539
02:22:58,040 --> 02:23:01,440
Speaker 1: don't know, it's weird to talk about it because at

2540
02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:03,560
Speaker 1: the end of the day, I inspired a lot of it,

2541
02:23:03,760 --> 02:23:06,440
Speaker 1: which is really weird to say. It's so weird to

2542
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:09,560
Speaker 1: say that. I like, but yeah, I'm kind of part

2543
02:23:09,600 --> 02:23:14,240
Speaker 1: of what revived activism and it sounds so so pretentious

2544
02:23:14,280 --> 02:23:17,680
Speaker 1: of me to just say that myself, but like, yeah, no,

2545
02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:23,000
Speaker 1: it is kind of what happened, and like yeah, and

2546
02:23:23,080 --> 02:23:24,320
Speaker 1: like that that was what was interesting to be too,

2547
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:28,840
Speaker 1: because it was it was very like I don't know,

2548
02:23:29,000 --> 02:23:31,000
Speaker 1: like the the US and twelve stuff was also like

2549
02:23:31,080 --> 02:23:35,120
Speaker 1: it was very very I guess media centered in a

2550
02:23:35,200 --> 02:23:37,680
Speaker 1: way where it was it was about drawing, like drawing

2551
02:23:37,760 --> 02:23:40,560
Speaker 1: masses of people into things and then using it to

2552
02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:42,480
Speaker 1: sort of get media attention, using it to sort of like,

2553
02:23:43,200 --> 02:23:45,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, be be this sort of like online

2554
02:23:45,280 --> 02:23:47,280
Speaker 1: like also this sort of like online social movements in

2555
02:23:47,320 --> 02:23:50,480
Speaker 1: a way that I think it's very different than the

2556
02:23:50,640 --> 02:23:52,480
Speaker 1: modern stuff. So this is my conception of it, though,

2557
02:23:52,520 --> 02:23:55,280
Speaker 1: because I've also been kind of like, I don't know,

2558
02:23:55,320 --> 02:23:58,560
Speaker 1: I was off doing other stuff in twenty nineteen that

2559
02:23:58,760 --> 02:24:02,800
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with this. So yeah, I'm I'm curious. Well, okay,

2560
02:24:05,160 --> 02:24:09,280
Speaker 1: so I'm curious a like, how how you see the

2561
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:13,080
Speaker 1: politics of these new groups either sort of as different

2562
02:24:13,120 --> 02:24:17,280
Speaker 1: from what came before it. I think it's hard for

2563
02:24:17,360 --> 02:24:19,480
Speaker 1: a lot of the groups, it's hard to like see

2564
02:24:19,640 --> 02:24:21,920
Speaker 1: what their politics are, and some of them aren't even

2565
02:24:22,240 --> 02:24:26,400
Speaker 1: Like there's things like Lapses that aren't specifically doing activism,

2566
02:24:26,520 --> 02:24:31,199
Speaker 1: but they're accidentally doing anti corporate activism by just making

2567
02:24:31,320 --> 02:24:35,720
Speaker 1: everything like uh, that's like groups that are like in

2568
02:24:35,840 --> 02:24:38,600
Speaker 1: the way that they operate are very clear and inspired

2569
02:24:38,640 --> 02:24:41,000
Speaker 1: by my work that I used to do um and

2570
02:24:41,120 --> 02:24:44,840
Speaker 1: they're just not very like political per se. They but

2571
02:24:45,000 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 1: but I still call them activists because even if it

2572
02:24:47,920 --> 02:24:51,360
Speaker 1: might not be their intention, they're doing activism, and they're

2573
02:24:51,400 --> 02:24:55,560
Speaker 1: making corporations angry and wasting corporate resources, and in my book,

2574
02:24:55,640 --> 02:24:59,000
Speaker 1: that counts as like activism and the fact that they

2575
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:02,080
Speaker 1: in a way fi for like freedom of information, even

2576
02:25:02,160 --> 02:25:05,920
Speaker 1: if they might not be the goal. Yeah, I don't know,

2577
02:25:06,000 --> 02:25:08,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that is the main unifying factor. Now

2578
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:12,360
Speaker 1: it's just a fight for information because like they're currently

2579
02:25:12,480 --> 02:25:17,000
Speaker 1: like the single biggest active activist thing happening right now

2580
02:25:17,160 --> 02:25:21,520
Speaker 1: since like twenty nineteen is just leaking the whole linkedivism

2581
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:24,520
Speaker 1: thing that happened before as well, but like now that's

2582
02:25:24,560 --> 02:25:26,880
Speaker 1: like the main thing. Before it was often a lot

2583
02:25:27,000 --> 02:25:29,760
Speaker 1: like just dedosing and stuff, but now we're so focused

2584
02:25:29,800 --> 02:25:35,400
Speaker 1: and like getting documents, getting software, getting files, getting like

2585
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:39,920
Speaker 1: proof that things happened, getting fucking no fly list. It's

2586
02:25:39,959 --> 02:25:44,320
Speaker 1: just it's just a very different environment, where like the

2587
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:47,440
Speaker 1: goals are probably about the same in a lot of ways,

2588
02:25:47,920 --> 02:25:50,439
Speaker 1: at least for the people who do have an ideology.

2589
02:25:51,320 --> 02:25:54,280
Speaker 1: But but like, yeah, I feel like it's just much

2590
02:25:54,360 --> 02:25:58,480
Speaker 1: more focused on like releasing information into the free, which

2591
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:00,920
Speaker 1: I find really great. Like that that is kind of

2592
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:06,400
Speaker 1: my big fight that I tried to devote myself to. Yeah,

2593
02:26:06,600 --> 02:26:08,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask also sort of just about your

2594
02:26:08,440 --> 02:26:11,440
Speaker 1: personal anarchism, because I don't know, I like talking about

2595
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 1: anarchism and yeah, everyone has their own. Um, I don't know,

2596
02:26:18,720 --> 02:26:20,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a difficult question, and I feel my

2597
02:26:21,000 --> 02:26:24,480
Speaker 1: answer to this question changes like every other thing. Um.

2598
02:26:25,120 --> 02:26:27,200
Speaker 1: I especially find it hard because like I am like

2599
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:32,320
Speaker 1: doing work in very specific focus bits of like anarchists work,

2600
02:26:32,480 --> 02:26:34,920
Speaker 1: and so I don't really want to lock myself into

2601
02:26:35,160 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, So so it's it's like very fluid.

2602
02:26:38,160 --> 02:26:42,120
Speaker 1: I'm just like obviously against states. I am like, I

2603
02:26:42,200 --> 02:26:47,560
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's hard. No no governments, no shitty

2604
02:26:47,640 --> 02:26:50,720
Speaker 1: co operations, and it's just like having fun with friends

2605
02:26:50,800 --> 02:26:53,720
Speaker 1: and being gay. That is like the rules we take

2606
02:26:53,800 --> 02:26:58,440
Speaker 1: this is this is a good form of chasm. Yeah,

2607
02:26:58,560 --> 02:27:03,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just some form of queer anarchism. Yeah,

2608
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:06,080
Speaker 1: being gay doing crimes, it's a it's a good it's

2609
02:27:06,120 --> 02:27:09,440
Speaker 1: a good thing. I guess in a way, like what

2610
02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:12,080
Speaker 1: kind of defines me and what keeps getting me into

2611
02:27:12,120 --> 02:27:14,000
Speaker 1: the spotlight is that I do just kind of have

2612
02:27:14,160 --> 02:27:17,440
Speaker 1: like a very strong moral compass and I go by

2613
02:27:17,560 --> 02:27:21,000
Speaker 1: that rather by what's legal or not legal or like

2614
02:27:21,240 --> 02:27:23,879
Speaker 1: sure I try to stay with him like some safe boundaries,

2615
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:29,120
Speaker 1: especially now like post indictment, um, given that they're definitely

2616
02:27:29,160 --> 02:27:32,040
Speaker 1: even more eyes on me now than than before and

2617
02:27:32,200 --> 02:27:35,880
Speaker 1: this podcast is definitely being played at some NBR. Yeah,

2618
02:27:35,920 --> 02:27:43,960
Speaker 1: there's there's there's ah, so that's something to consider, but like, yeah,

2619
02:27:44,080 --> 02:27:46,160
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like that's kind of what

2620
02:27:46,280 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 1: I want to demonstrate this that like if you have morals,

2621
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:52,440
Speaker 1: you can't just stick by them, like no one is

2622
02:27:52,560 --> 02:27:55,800
Speaker 1: stopping you from doing that. They might try to, but

2623
02:27:56,040 --> 02:27:59,240
Speaker 1: like you can just stick with your morals. Yeah, and

2624
02:27:59,720 --> 02:28:02,720
Speaker 1: I I think it's worth mentioning even like you know, okay,

2625
02:28:02,760 --> 02:28:04,879
Speaker 1: like a lot of people go to prison for doing

2626
02:28:04,920 --> 02:28:07,959
Speaker 1: stuff like this, some of them didn't like there there

2627
02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:10,000
Speaker 1: there's like, to the best of my knowledge, there is

2628
02:28:10,000 --> 02:28:12,120
Speaker 1: at least still one low set guy who's just in

2629
02:28:12,200 --> 02:28:15,119
Speaker 1: the wind who they never got and like and low

2630
02:28:15,200 --> 02:28:18,400
Speaker 1: sec like they they had a FED mole in the

2631
02:28:18,560 --> 02:28:24,200
Speaker 1: group and one of these people still got away fox. Yeah. Yeah,

2632
02:28:24,240 --> 02:28:30,320
Speaker 1: just so really don't do Savo's basically the guy that

2633
02:28:30,440 --> 02:28:34,080
Speaker 1: the Fed's flipped inside of lo Sek who got everyonce

2634
02:28:34,120 --> 02:28:37,560
Speaker 1: at the prison. Um. Like, like I do have to

2635
02:28:37,640 --> 02:28:40,040
Speaker 1: say I kind of get why he flipped like he

2636
02:28:40,160 --> 02:28:42,720
Speaker 1: at that point already had a family and stuff. But like,

2637
02:28:42,840 --> 02:28:47,520
Speaker 1: I get that that is hard, but still, yeah, your friends, Yeah,

2638
02:28:47,640 --> 02:28:51,400
Speaker 1: so you simply do not like like, I don't know,

2639
02:28:51,800 --> 02:28:54,320
Speaker 1: and the fact that he still like has some sort

2640
02:28:54,360 --> 02:28:59,120
Speaker 1: of image. Honestly, I don't know that it's just in commune.

2641
02:28:59,600 --> 02:29:05,320
Speaker 1: It's uh, I don't know. It's it's interesting for sure,

2642
02:29:06,080 --> 02:29:09,080
Speaker 1: but yeah, I can't come in too much a lot

2643
02:29:09,160 --> 02:29:11,080
Speaker 1: of fun. There are a lot of funny chokes to

2644
02:29:11,160 --> 02:29:16,440
Speaker 1: be made that I shouldn't. Yeah, the Feds suck. I'm

2645
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:19,760
Speaker 1: just gonna say that, like, oh god, it's it's been.

2646
02:29:19,840 --> 02:29:21,920
Speaker 1: It's it's it's been. It's been a bad week of

2647
02:29:22,080 --> 02:29:27,520
Speaker 1: Feds in the US too. Like yeah, honestly, just one

2648
02:29:27,600 --> 02:29:30,840
Speaker 1: thing again. But I am so curious what's going to

2649
02:29:30,920 --> 02:29:33,160
Speaker 1: happen with the Congression link. Yeah, I don't know if

2650
02:29:33,200 --> 02:29:37,960
Speaker 1: you saw that, like, especially since like this means that

2651
02:29:38,080 --> 02:29:40,360
Speaker 1: the Republicans are going to be exposed to my block

2652
02:29:40,440 --> 02:29:45,960
Speaker 1: post presumably. Ah, And I am so excited for all

2653
02:29:46,000 --> 02:29:49,400
Speaker 1: these larks they can come up with. It is going

2654
02:29:49,440 --> 02:29:51,880
Speaker 1: to be extremely funny. But I'm also very excited for

2655
02:29:52,040 --> 02:29:54,840
Speaker 1: like the Turfs to be like this is terrorism, see

2656
02:29:55,600 --> 02:29:59,440
Speaker 1: right along. Yeah, yeah, I have gotten that before. I

2657
02:29:59,520 --> 02:30:03,160
Speaker 1: have gotten terffre applies before on like articles about me

2658
02:30:03,320 --> 02:30:06,240
Speaker 1: where they were like, see, no, women don't commit cry.

2659
02:30:06,520 --> 02:30:09,040
Speaker 1: So this is clear proof that it's just like what

2660
02:30:09,200 --> 02:30:13,080
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? This is this is my

2661
02:30:13,320 --> 02:30:18,560
Speaker 1: male cheenes coming out. I always also like, man, like

2662
02:30:18,720 --> 02:30:20,240
Speaker 1: do do you do? You do? You do? You know

2663
02:30:20,520 --> 02:30:23,120
Speaker 1: what people? What people did? So you have the right

2664
02:30:23,200 --> 02:30:27,800
Speaker 1: to vote, Like come on that, Like That's the funny

2665
02:30:27,879 --> 02:30:30,440
Speaker 1: thing is that they at the same time also like

2666
02:30:30,600 --> 02:30:33,680
Speaker 1: fetishizes the whole suffragette thing. Yeah, I think, no fucking

2667
02:30:33,760 --> 02:30:36,120
Speaker 1: clue what that movement? Yeah, it's like no, no, no

2668
02:30:36,280 --> 02:30:41,680
Speaker 1: suffragette what what whatever? Horsewhip, Richie suonac, no turf whatever,

2669
02:30:43,000 --> 02:30:48,520
Speaker 1: unlike unlike the suffragettes, who Yeah, exactly, I don't know,

2670
02:30:48,760 --> 02:30:51,840
Speaker 1: it's it's silly. I'm surprised how little harassment I've gotten

2671
02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:54,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter so far if we exclude the whole by

2672
02:30:54,920 --> 02:31:00,280
Speaker 1: lesbian this. Yeah, I'm so sorry for re start that this.

2673
02:31:00,840 --> 02:31:04,160
Speaker 1: I think me talking about that single handedly restarted that this.

2674
02:31:05,800 --> 02:31:09,680
Speaker 1: It just happened. It just happens periodically, Like yeah, yeah,

2675
02:31:09,920 --> 02:31:12,400
Speaker 1: it's just funny because like I was just like, yeah,

2676
02:31:12,480 --> 02:31:14,760
Speaker 1: this is gonna get me some hatred place. But like

2677
02:31:15,120 --> 02:31:18,680
Speaker 1: within five minutes, I had twenty one private quote Yeah,

2678
02:31:18,720 --> 02:31:20,920
Speaker 1: I mean like my, my my. I won't wake an

2679
02:31:20,959 --> 02:31:22,800
Speaker 1: official statement on that, which is that if you give

2680
02:31:22,840 --> 02:31:26,040
Speaker 1: a single ship about people calling themselves by lesbians, like,

2681
02:31:26,959 --> 02:31:29,520
Speaker 1: please let me know so I can trade lives with you.

2682
02:31:30,200 --> 02:31:33,439
Speaker 1: Like you you seem to have like very few problems

2683
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:36,680
Speaker 1: going on. I would love to like have grown up

2684
02:31:36,720 --> 02:31:38,960
Speaker 1: in the world where like that's like that's the thing

2685
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:42,720
Speaker 1: that you think, Like, I don't know. I think it's

2686
02:31:42,879 --> 02:31:45,400
Speaker 1: I think it's funny how there's people who were like

2687
02:31:45,800 --> 02:31:48,360
Speaker 1: one thing to follow me wanting to interact with me

2688
02:31:49,040 --> 02:31:53,840
Speaker 1: as like and it's it's uh fury and kitten who

2689
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:57,680
Speaker 1: like does uh funny things to the U. S. Government,

2690
02:31:57,760 --> 02:32:01,720
Speaker 1: but then they draw the line at a specific sexuality. Yeah,

2691
02:32:01,760 --> 02:32:04,920
Speaker 1: it's really like I I then made like a post

2692
02:32:04,959 --> 02:32:07,200
Speaker 1: where I was like sorry, I deleted that I didn't.

2693
02:32:07,280 --> 02:32:09,360
Speaker 1: I don't have the energy to deal with people getting

2694
02:32:09,400 --> 02:32:12,119
Speaker 1: so upset over an innocent word, and that has gotten

2695
02:32:12,200 --> 02:32:14,880
Speaker 1: so many many quote weeks being like yeah, and an

2696
02:32:14,959 --> 02:32:17,240
Speaker 1: innocent word in question was by lesbian. I say if

2697
02:32:17,280 --> 02:32:19,480
Speaker 1: I said, like the N word or something like that

2698
02:32:19,680 --> 02:32:22,160
Speaker 1: was literally the kind of response I got. And it's

2699
02:32:22,200 --> 02:32:24,960
Speaker 1: just like do you not have anything else to do?

2700
02:32:25,320 --> 02:32:29,959
Speaker 1: Like like do you know how many people the cops

2701
02:32:30,040 --> 02:32:32,760
Speaker 1: killed last week? Can you please do something like come

2702
02:32:32,840 --> 02:32:36,119
Speaker 1: on and all the things are happening here right now,

2703
02:32:36,440 --> 02:32:40,200
Speaker 1: Like especially then when some of the people that come

2704
02:32:40,280 --> 02:32:43,120
Speaker 1: up with that are like non binary lesbians, which if

2705
02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:46,400
Speaker 1: you know anything about this purity and discourse, like half

2706
02:32:46,480 --> 02:32:48,960
Speaker 1: of the them would also like from the sounder the

2707
02:32:49,080 --> 02:32:52,600
Speaker 1: pit because non binary lesbians also can't exist, and like

2708
02:32:53,120 --> 02:32:56,440
Speaker 1: it's why are you why? Why are you fighting for

2709
02:32:56,600 --> 02:32:59,920
Speaker 1: the turf? Like that? That is my one single question

2710
02:33:00,040 --> 02:33:03,000
Speaker 1: that I have through all the fourteen year old careers

2711
02:33:03,040 --> 02:33:05,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter dot com. Also, why did that Why did

2712
02:33:05,760 --> 02:33:10,400
Speaker 1: that discourse ever escaped Tumbler? Like that was because all

2713
02:33:10,400 --> 02:33:14,000
Speaker 1: the Tumbler because all the Tumbler refugees came to Twitter. Yeah,

2714
02:33:14,240 --> 02:33:18,600
Speaker 1: but they could have left a discourse there. Yeah, but no,

2715
02:33:18,800 --> 02:33:22,000
Speaker 1: the world I don't know Twitter, Twitter, Twitter in the

2716
02:33:22,120 --> 02:33:25,600
Speaker 1: last like like okay, like twitter'sdress course has never been good,

2717
02:33:26,120 --> 02:33:29,040
Speaker 1: but like in the last obviously it's just been getting

2718
02:33:29,600 --> 02:33:33,560
Speaker 1: worse and it's it's yeah, it's just the same side,

2719
02:33:33,600 --> 02:33:36,000
Speaker 1: like it's it's not even that it's just bad discourse.

2720
02:33:36,160 --> 02:33:39,200
Speaker 1: It's just the same discourse every week, and I'm just

2721
02:33:39,400 --> 02:33:41,640
Speaker 1: tired of it. And I guess now that I'm a

2722
02:33:41,680 --> 02:33:44,359
Speaker 1: big account, I have to have an opinion on everything.

2723
02:33:44,959 --> 02:33:50,480
Speaker 1: Um And also the fun part about being trans ever,

2724
02:33:50,600 --> 02:33:55,480
Speaker 1: everyone is like like absolutely razor focused for like the

2725
02:33:55,640 --> 02:33:58,280
Speaker 1: exact one word that you say wrong so they can act,

2726
02:33:58,440 --> 02:34:01,280
Speaker 1: so they can like like legitimately uoteunquote beechan trobic at you.

2727
02:34:01,360 --> 02:34:02,840
Speaker 1: And it's like this is great, Like this is a

2728
02:34:02,879 --> 02:34:06,080
Speaker 1: great system that we've developed for existing with each other.

2729
02:34:06,560 --> 02:34:10,480
Speaker 1: We could simply do this, Yeah, you can just say

2730
02:34:10,840 --> 02:34:13,200
Speaker 1: like that. The fact that literally, like I was like,

2731
02:34:13,320 --> 02:34:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see what happens if I say by lesbian

2732
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:19,680
Speaker 1: and then I can't wait twenty four followers, and and

2733
02:34:19,840 --> 02:34:22,440
Speaker 1: the fact that it literally took seconds for people to

2734
02:34:22,640 --> 02:34:25,440
Speaker 1: tell me to tell all their mutuals to unfollow me

2735
02:34:25,520 --> 02:34:29,960
Speaker 1: because I'm highly problematic. Um was it was quite interesting

2736
02:34:30,040 --> 02:34:32,760
Speaker 1: and someone was just like this has completely shattered my

2737
02:34:32,879 --> 02:34:35,280
Speaker 1: world view, and I'm just like sorry, if your world

2738
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:38,560
Speaker 1: view gets shattered by my sexuality, you have some soul

2739
02:34:38,640 --> 02:34:42,840
Speaker 1: seeking to do, like yeah, like like like like like

2740
02:34:43,080 --> 02:34:49,760
Speaker 1: like actually, like like I grew, I grew like like

2741
02:34:50,120 --> 02:34:52,920
Speaker 1: for some of them. For some people, me saying the

2742
02:34:53,040 --> 02:34:57,600
Speaker 1: phrase by lesbian was genuinely like my milkshake doc moment. Yeah,

2743
02:34:57,600 --> 02:35:01,080
Speaker 1: it was like it was like a second it's called

2744
02:35:01,400 --> 02:35:07,440
Speaker 1: a second sexuality description as hit the towers, like it was, yeah,

2745
02:35:07,760 --> 02:35:11,000
Speaker 1: that's so like god, it was like five am when

2746
02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:12,680
Speaker 1: I made that tweet. It was just like, oh, I'm

2747
02:35:12,720 --> 02:35:15,400
Speaker 1: going to get a little silly with it. And I

2748
02:35:16,160 --> 02:35:19,160
Speaker 1: expected like a backlash, but not that much. It was

2749
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:22,800
Speaker 1: just too much. And yeah, like I know, it's not

2750
02:35:23,080 --> 02:35:25,640
Speaker 1: like backlash that matters and I should just ignore it,

2751
02:35:25,760 --> 02:35:30,000
Speaker 1: but it's like so overwhelming. Yeah, I guess do you

2752
02:35:30,000 --> 02:35:31,320
Speaker 1: do you have anything else that you want to say?

2753
02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:34,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's that covers like most

2754
02:35:35,080 --> 02:35:40,280
Speaker 1: of the things I have to talk about. H Yeah,

2755
02:35:40,440 --> 02:35:44,200
Speaker 1: just like be gay to crime, Hacked the Planet, Oh

2756
02:35:44,280 --> 02:35:47,800
Speaker 1: my god, it was genuinely it is one of my

2757
02:35:47,879 --> 02:35:50,959
Speaker 1: favorite things in the world that they made the movie Hackers,

2758
02:35:51,120 --> 02:35:54,400
Speaker 1: and it was the worst depicture. But then also like

2759
02:35:54,920 --> 02:35:58,680
Speaker 1: like I was like, so I did watch them. I mean, okay,

2760
02:35:58,720 --> 02:36:01,280
Speaker 1: I watched it, like not to the first time, Like

2761
02:36:01,360 --> 02:36:03,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't like like like I was. I was like

2762
02:36:03,959 --> 02:36:05,720
Speaker 1: not that or when I watched it, but it was

2763
02:36:05,840 --> 02:36:09,000
Speaker 1: after I like first ran into Hackers, So it took

2764
02:36:09,040 --> 02:36:11,640
Speaker 1: me a while to figure out that, like, wait, hold on,

2765
02:36:11,800 --> 02:36:14,119
Speaker 1: no hack the planet is the thing that everyone says,

2766
02:36:14,360 --> 02:36:17,600
Speaker 1: but that's actually because it's a joke for hackers, which

2767
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:21,320
Speaker 1: I see. I still find it funny how Hackers is

2768
02:36:21,400 --> 02:36:24,800
Speaker 1: a movie that got hacking culture completely wrong and changed

2769
02:36:24,879 --> 02:36:28,840
Speaker 1: it forever, because like because like there's I don't know

2770
02:36:28,879 --> 02:36:31,560
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen that, but from like Defcon from

2771
02:36:33,040 --> 02:36:36,240
Speaker 1: there's a page on the official Deacon website talking about

2772
02:36:36,280 --> 02:36:38,720
Speaker 1: how bad Hackers is and how it gets everything wrong

2773
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:41,000
Speaker 1: and no one should watch this movie. And now you

2774
02:36:41,120 --> 02:36:43,840
Speaker 1: look at this like twenty years later, and that's just

2775
02:36:44,080 --> 02:36:48,400
Speaker 1: what hacking culture turned in. Yeah, the most incredible thing

2776
02:36:48,480 --> 02:36:52,240
Speaker 1: about Hackers is that someone managed to get the queerest

2777
02:36:52,360 --> 02:36:56,880
Speaker 1: fucking movie ever made made by one of the biggest

2778
02:36:56,920 --> 02:37:00,200
Speaker 1: companies in Hollywood, and also make it about hacking, and

2779
02:37:00,640 --> 02:37:03,920
Speaker 1: like it's it's the best piece of cinema ever. And

2780
02:37:04,040 --> 02:37:06,440
Speaker 1: I stand by this, like it fucking sucks in a

2781
02:37:06,520 --> 02:37:10,000
Speaker 1: lot of ways, but it's just they just managed to

2782
02:37:10,080 --> 02:37:15,600
Speaker 1: make a movie where no one has says somehow like

2783
02:37:16,120 --> 02:37:20,000
Speaker 1: so no one says it's pretty amazing. I will say

2784
02:37:20,120 --> 02:37:25,680
Speaker 1: the two Asian characters are kind of whack, but yeah,

2785
02:37:25,920 --> 02:37:28,200
Speaker 1: other than that, it's like, yeah, it's a it's a

2786
02:37:28,800 --> 02:37:31,880
Speaker 1: like like it's it's a whack movie. Like like if

2787
02:37:31,959 --> 02:37:34,560
Speaker 1: you look at it objectively, it's a pretty bad movie.

2788
02:37:34,959 --> 02:37:36,680
Speaker 1: Like like there's you know, there was just like a

2789
02:37:36,959 --> 02:37:39,000
Speaker 1: lot of way stuff in the nineties is absolutely terrible,

2790
02:37:39,040 --> 02:37:41,240
Speaker 1: but also like there was stuff you could just do

2791
02:37:41,400 --> 02:37:43,840
Speaker 1: in movies in the nineties that like you can't now,

2792
02:37:44,560 --> 02:37:47,080
Speaker 1: like like okay, well, like what my example this is.

2793
02:37:47,200 --> 02:37:48,520
Speaker 1: I may have said this on the podcast before, but

2794
02:37:48,600 --> 02:37:52,520
Speaker 1: like they so they they did a like completely straight

2795
02:37:53,280 --> 02:37:58,480
Speaker 1: like modern day live adaptation of Romeo and Juliet that

2796
02:37:58,680 --> 02:38:01,240
Speaker 1: is like it's Romeo and Juliet. It's it's exactly the

2797
02:38:01,400 --> 02:38:05,120
Speaker 1: lines in Shakespeare, but it's like with characters set in

2798
02:38:05,320 --> 02:38:08,600
Speaker 1: like the like modern times, and they're shooting guns each other.

2799
02:38:08,920 --> 02:38:10,960
Speaker 1: But like one of these happens now is there's just

2800
02:38:10,959 --> 02:38:12,920
Speaker 1: like a black guy doing drag and it's just like

2801
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:14,960
Speaker 1: a thing, like nobody comments on it, like it's just

2802
02:38:15,080 --> 02:38:16,920
Speaker 1: like a thing that he's having a good time and

2803
02:38:17,240 --> 02:38:20,240
Speaker 1: you could not like like people people people would show

2804
02:38:20,320 --> 02:38:22,360
Speaker 1: up to yeah, like people people, which people like yeah,

2805
02:38:22,600 --> 02:38:25,200
Speaker 1: like I won't be on Tucker Carlson like yeah, like

2806
02:38:25,280 --> 02:38:27,480
Speaker 1: like the people people. Yeah, you'd have like mobs showing

2807
02:38:27,560 --> 02:38:30,560
Speaker 1: up in front of your house like it's yeah yeah,

2808
02:38:31,440 --> 02:38:34,000
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like yeah, if hackers came out now,

2809
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:38,640
Speaker 1: we would have like Tucker Carson complaining about the wokeme

2810
02:38:38,720 --> 02:38:45,600
Speaker 1: up trying to kids and to gay activists like I

2811
02:38:45,680 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 1: don't know. I love the movie so much, not not

2812
02:38:48,959 --> 02:38:56,000
Speaker 1: because it's good, but because it's culturally important, yes, and yeah,

2813
02:38:56,200 --> 02:38:59,480
Speaker 1: and the characters are like great, like they made everyone

2814
02:38:59,560 --> 02:39:02,040
Speaker 1: career somehow. And I'm still not sure I whether Devil

2815
02:39:02,080 --> 02:39:06,400
Speaker 1: was intentional or not. I don't know, but I leaned

2816
02:39:06,400 --> 02:39:08,040
Speaker 1: towards they didn't know what they were doing, and that

2817
02:39:08,120 --> 02:39:11,360
Speaker 1: makes it even funnier. Yeah, it makes it so much better.

2818
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:13,720
Speaker 1: And also the fact that it's like got past like

2819
02:39:13,879 --> 02:39:17,320
Speaker 1: producers and everything, and it was made the queerest piece

2820
02:39:17,440 --> 02:39:20,520
Speaker 1: of like Hollywood media I have ever seen that wasn't

2821
02:39:20,640 --> 02:39:25,760
Speaker 1: meant to be queer. It's just like, yeah, yeah, cool

2822
02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:28,560
Speaker 1: time we weren't on this tension because yeah we we

2823
02:39:28,720 --> 02:39:30,800
Speaker 1: we we we we We simply love to see it

2824
02:39:30,959 --> 02:39:33,960
Speaker 1: be gay, do crimes hack the planet? Uh, this is

2825
02:39:34,000 --> 02:39:36,600
Speaker 1: not legally for the FBI. This is not legally actionable.

2826
02:39:36,640 --> 02:39:43,360
Speaker 1: This is a joke, yes, from the movie Hackers, which

2827
02:39:43,400 --> 02:39:49,920
Speaker 1: you could watch Hackers. Yeah in places. Yeah, if you

2828
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:53,000
Speaker 1: can watch it very legally on the internet. I actually

2829
02:39:53,000 --> 02:39:55,320
Speaker 1: don't know if it's on any streaming platform. I don't

2830
02:39:55,400 --> 02:39:58,840
Speaker 1: think I watched it. I think it is because I

2831
02:39:58,920 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 1: watched it with my family kind of recently, which was

2832
02:40:01,040 --> 02:40:06,080
Speaker 1: a wild time. It's probably streaming. Oh, it's it's it's

2833
02:40:06,120 --> 02:40:09,560
Speaker 1: an Apple TV apparently. Yeah, so it's there. You can

2834
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:11,520
Speaker 1: find it there. You can find it in other places.

2835
02:40:11,760 --> 02:40:15,640
Speaker 1: It can it can find it somewhere, both legally and illegally.

2836
02:40:16,520 --> 02:40:21,240
Speaker 1: If I'm allowed to endorse like piracy on your podcast,

2837
02:40:21,440 --> 02:40:23,520
Speaker 1: it's we We We did an entire episode about how

2838
02:40:23,560 --> 02:40:27,360
Speaker 1: the pirate stuff. So yeah, so yeah, you can find

2839
02:40:27,400 --> 02:40:29,800
Speaker 1: it both legally and illegally, and if you're lucky, I'm

2840
02:40:29,879 --> 02:40:36,120
Speaker 1: the one seeding the Torrent. And then actually, okay, but

2841
02:40:36,360 --> 02:40:38,360
Speaker 1: the other thing I actually should before you if people

2842
02:40:38,440 --> 02:40:41,280
Speaker 1: want to find you, where can they find you? I'm

2843
02:40:41,320 --> 02:40:44,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Underscore nine crime you and in case

2844
02:40:44,600 --> 02:40:47,560
Speaker 1: Twitter suspends me once again for the sex time. I

2845
02:40:47,680 --> 02:40:50,160
Speaker 1: have a website at Maya dot crime you dot k

2846
02:40:50,879 --> 02:40:55,959
Speaker 1: it rules. It's so good it Yes, the reason I'm

2847
02:40:56,000 --> 02:40:59,920
Speaker 1: famous now, it's just because my website is paying. It's great.

2848
02:41:01,640 --> 02:41:06,040
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So this this has been Make it Happen here.

2849
02:41:06,160 --> 02:41:11,720
Speaker 1: You can find us at Happened here pod at Twitter, Instagram. Um, yeah,

2850
02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:13,920
Speaker 1: I guess I am at it b h R three.

2851
02:41:15,360 --> 02:41:36,119
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, go in, go in crime. Welcome back once again.

2852
02:41:36,200 --> 02:41:38,480
Speaker 1: This is the crew from It's Going Down, squatting the

2853
02:41:38,520 --> 02:41:41,280
Speaker 1: air waves if it could happen here. On today's show,

2854
02:41:41,400 --> 02:41:44,279
Speaker 1: we're going to look at the growing crisis around homelessness

2855
02:41:44,760 --> 02:41:46,880
Speaker 1: and how the state has moved to address it with

2856
02:41:47,040 --> 02:41:51,360
Speaker 1: brutal sweeps and new laws that target the poor. In

2857
02:41:51,440 --> 02:41:54,840
Speaker 1: the wake of the global COVID nineteen pandemic, the US

2858
02:41:54,879 --> 02:41:59,760
Speaker 1: housing crisis deepened, and homelessness crew following the George Foyd rebellion.

2859
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:04,600
Speaker 1: Republicans pointed to a rising murderate during the election cycle,

2860
02:42:04,760 --> 02:42:08,000
Speaker 1: along with growing encampments of the houseless, as examples of

2861
02:42:08,160 --> 02:42:12,800
Speaker 1: rampant democratic mismanagement and the supposed in result of defunding

2862
02:42:12,840 --> 02:42:17,280
Speaker 1: the police. In reality, two years after the uprising. Both

2863
02:42:17,400 --> 02:42:20,000
Speaker 1: funding for the police has only increased along with the

2864
02:42:20,160 --> 02:42:23,520
Speaker 1: number of people killed per year by law enforcement, while

2865
02:42:23,600 --> 02:42:28,080
Speaker 1: growing police budgets have had no impact on crime. Meanwhile,

2866
02:42:28,400 --> 02:42:31,520
Speaker 1: both parties have embraced a draconian crackdown on the house

2867
02:42:31,600 --> 02:42:35,160
Speaker 1: list as a slew of new laws targets sleeping outside,

2868
02:42:35,560 --> 02:42:38,920
Speaker 1: and police move against encampments even in the midst of

2869
02:42:39,080 --> 02:42:42,520
Speaker 1: extreme weather. But a new wave of resistance is also

2870
02:42:42,600 --> 02:42:47,040
Speaker 1: materializing as communities mobilized to provide mutual aid, fight for

2871
02:42:47,160 --> 02:42:51,520
Speaker 1: access to housing, and resist sweeps of encampments. On today's episode,

2872
02:42:51,879 --> 02:42:55,280
Speaker 1: we investigate the history of these struggles and how these tactics,

2873
02:42:55,480 --> 02:42:58,800
Speaker 1: ranging from squatting to a cant defense, are spreading across

2874
02:42:58,840 --> 02:43:02,160
Speaker 1: the social terrain as the current crisis deepens, can more

2875
02:43:02,280 --> 02:43:05,800
Speaker 1: people find themselves out in the call? But to kick

2876
02:43:05,879 --> 02:43:09,000
Speaker 1: things off, let's talk about state strategy. Just why are

2877
02:43:09,080 --> 02:43:12,240
Speaker 1: they carrying out these sweeps? I think one of the

2878
02:43:12,280 --> 02:43:14,200
Speaker 1: first thing that comes to mind for me is how

2879
02:43:14,400 --> 02:43:17,080
Speaker 1: this behavior from like the Democrats or like liberals or

2880
02:43:17,120 --> 02:43:21,160
Speaker 1: progressives isn't an anomaly that they are You know that

2881
02:43:21,280 --> 02:43:24,800
Speaker 1: their role is facilitating a capitalist state, just with slightly

2882
02:43:24,879 --> 02:43:28,000
Speaker 1: different tactics than the Republicans, but basically they're trying to

2883
02:43:28,080 --> 02:43:32,760
Speaker 1: do that. What they're doing, which is basically demonizing unhoused

2884
02:43:32,800 --> 02:43:37,320
Speaker 1: people and sort of pushes the blame of, um, what's

2885
02:43:37,360 --> 02:43:41,039
Speaker 1: going on, of the failings basically of our culture, onto

2886
02:43:41,200 --> 02:43:45,120
Speaker 1: these individuals that are unhoused, rather than on their failures

2887
02:43:45,440 --> 02:43:49,440
Speaker 1: as like mayors of democratic cities or whatever, um and

2888
02:43:49,560 --> 02:43:54,880
Speaker 1: the kind of logical outcome of class based capitalists extracted society.

2889
02:43:55,600 --> 02:43:57,480
Speaker 1: And when they can just make it that instead of

2890
02:43:57,560 --> 02:44:00,199
Speaker 1: it being like a social problem that people are on hours,

2891
02:44:00,200 --> 02:44:03,240
Speaker 1: they can make it these bad homeless people and they're

2892
02:44:03,600 --> 02:44:06,840
Speaker 1: dirty and crime or whatever, and just kind of trying

2893
02:44:06,840 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 1: and eliminate that to protect their image. But I think

2894
02:44:09,560 --> 02:44:12,760
Speaker 1: it's just a way of scapegoating a built in problem

2895
02:44:13,160 --> 02:44:15,920
Speaker 1: with how they operate. And actually it's something that makes

2896
02:44:15,920 --> 02:44:18,560
Speaker 1: me think, especially thinking about San Francisco in terms of

2897
02:44:18,640 --> 02:44:20,520
Speaker 1: like precedence for this. It makes me think about the

2898
02:44:20,640 --> 02:44:23,720
Speaker 1: Ugly Laws, which, for anyone who doesn't know that was

2899
02:44:23,800 --> 02:44:27,199
Speaker 1: something kind of in the San Francisco implemented in eighteen

2900
02:44:27,240 --> 02:44:30,880
Speaker 1: sixty seven, which was a law forbidding people who were

2901
02:44:30,959 --> 02:44:34,000
Speaker 1: kind of like unsightly according to this law, UM to

2902
02:44:34,160 --> 02:44:36,640
Speaker 1: not be seen in the streets. So if people were

2903
02:44:36,720 --> 02:44:40,800
Speaker 1: physically disabled or they were begging or even limping, there

2904
02:44:40,840 --> 02:44:43,360
Speaker 1: were laws targeting them. And part of it even says

2905
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:47,120
Speaker 1: that anything that's triggering like disgust or guilt like to

2906
02:44:47,240 --> 02:44:48,760
Speaker 1: not be seen. And I feel like it's a really

2907
02:44:48,800 --> 02:44:52,920
Speaker 1: similar thing that's happening now. And so yeah, progressive as

2908
02:44:52,959 --> 02:44:55,600
Speaker 1: they do this. I'm one that you brought up able

2909
02:44:55,680 --> 02:44:57,800
Speaker 1: is because I think that this ties in rur role

2910
02:44:57,879 --> 02:44:59,840
Speaker 1: while into that. So we live in essentially like on

2911
02:44:59,920 --> 02:45:02,440
Speaker 1: a extremely able to society that says if you don't work,

2912
02:45:02,760 --> 02:45:06,560
Speaker 1: you die, and I think criminalizing homeless people is a

2913
02:45:06,640 --> 02:45:08,360
Speaker 1: huge part of that. I mean, really think about it.

2914
02:45:08,640 --> 02:45:12,680
Speaker 1: We have to rent our bodies to corporations so we

2915
02:45:12,760 --> 02:45:16,800
Speaker 1: can get money to pay rent to landlords. Essentially we're

2916
02:45:16,840 --> 02:45:19,600
Speaker 1: being paid at tax to live. But how do you

2917
02:45:19,760 --> 02:45:21,840
Speaker 1: force people? How else can you get people to do

2918
02:45:21,920 --> 02:45:24,160
Speaker 1: the drudgery that we have to do at work if

2919
02:45:24,200 --> 02:45:26,440
Speaker 1: you don't like show them the consequences of that. So

2920
02:45:26,560 --> 02:45:28,760
Speaker 1: like if they were nice to homeless people, if they

2921
02:45:28,800 --> 02:45:30,720
Speaker 1: were like, oh, here's a free home, they not create

2922
02:45:30,800 --> 02:45:34,240
Speaker 1: a president of like, oh, you cannot work and have

2923
02:45:34,400 --> 02:45:36,080
Speaker 1: a home. So like they don't want to do that.

2924
02:45:36,240 --> 02:45:37,640
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think one thing that people don't

2925
02:45:37,640 --> 02:45:40,080
Speaker 1: talk about, like homelessness is existing. I think it's like

2926
02:45:40,520 --> 02:45:44,600
Speaker 1: a way to like scare us into essentially doing these

2927
02:45:44,640 --> 02:45:46,280
Speaker 1: things that we don't want to do to live, because

2928
02:45:46,320 --> 02:45:48,640
Speaker 1: you're constantly reminding us of like, oh, you want to

2929
02:45:48,760 --> 02:45:51,440
Speaker 1: quiet Quinn, you want to go on a strike, this

2930
02:45:51,640 --> 02:45:54,480
Speaker 1: is what your life could be. You're gonna be homeless.

2931
02:45:54,520 --> 02:45:56,840
Speaker 1: And not only that, we're gonna make it so that

2932
02:45:57,040 --> 02:45:59,520
Speaker 1: you can't exist as a homeless person in this society

2933
02:45:59,600 --> 02:46:01,680
Speaker 1: because people like if you go to New York right now,

2934
02:46:01,800 --> 02:46:05,080
Speaker 1: all these brunchy folks they eat on the sidewalk, they

2935
02:46:05,160 --> 02:46:07,400
Speaker 1: have all these like houses build up on the sidewalk,

2936
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:09,920
Speaker 1: people and drinking mimosas. But you can't have a tan

2937
02:46:10,200 --> 02:46:12,240
Speaker 1: but one of these makeshift things. So I mean it

2938
02:46:12,280 --> 02:46:13,920
Speaker 1: goes to show you like it's not even like the

2939
02:46:14,080 --> 02:46:16,879
Speaker 1: idea of taking public space. It's like who's taking public space?

2940
02:46:17,120 --> 02:46:19,760
Speaker 1: And if it's somebody who's not serving capitalism, you can't

2941
02:46:19,760 --> 02:46:23,360
Speaker 1: take up public space. The housing question. To really understand

2942
02:46:23,440 --> 02:46:27,080
Speaker 1: the connection with democrats and capitalists understands of housing, we

2943
02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:30,360
Speaker 1: have to think about how housing, how property structure space, right,

2944
02:46:30,440 --> 02:46:33,920
Speaker 1: how capitalism structures space. And so you know, when I

2945
02:46:34,040 --> 02:46:36,400
Speaker 1: was thinking about this before we're recording, I keep going

2946
02:46:36,480 --> 02:46:39,680
Speaker 1: back to James Scott Seeing Like a State, which is,

2947
02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:41,760
Speaker 1: you know, an amazing book. If people haven't read it,

2948
02:46:42,160 --> 02:46:45,320
Speaker 1: absolutely pick up a copy. But in the first you know,

2949
02:46:45,440 --> 02:46:47,280
Speaker 1: couple of chapters, one of the things he talks about

2950
02:46:47,320 --> 02:46:51,400
Speaker 1: islantic closure, and he's talking about this structure specifically in France,

2951
02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:54,920
Speaker 1: in which sort of towards the end of monarchism, there

2952
02:46:55,000 --> 02:46:57,400
Speaker 1: was an attempt to actually create a tax regime where

2953
02:46:57,400 --> 02:47:00,520
Speaker 1: individuals were taxed, and to do that into jules had

2954
02:47:00,560 --> 02:47:03,920
Speaker 1: to exist legally, but they didn't at that point. They

2955
02:47:04,080 --> 02:47:07,320
Speaker 1: existed as communities within feudalism. They pay taxes as communities

2956
02:47:07,360 --> 02:47:10,720
Speaker 1: that held land as communities. When the French government went

2957
02:47:10,840 --> 02:47:13,920
Speaker 1: to these towns to figure out who owned what, but

2958
02:47:14,040 --> 02:47:16,960
Speaker 1: they found was that every single community broke up their

2959
02:47:17,040 --> 02:47:20,080
Speaker 1: understanding of land differently and that it wasn't really based

2960
02:47:20,120 --> 02:47:22,600
Speaker 1: on ownership, is based on use. And so they had

2961
02:47:22,640 --> 02:47:24,560
Speaker 1: to standardize all of that. To do that, they had

2962
02:47:24,560 --> 02:47:26,520
Speaker 1: to fragment the commons. They had to sit there and go,

2963
02:47:27,080 --> 02:47:28,720
Speaker 1: you owned this piece of land, and you owned this

2964
02:47:28,800 --> 02:47:31,000
Speaker 1: piece of land. They did that, they made maps, and

2965
02:47:31,040 --> 02:47:33,600
Speaker 1: they went back two years later they realized nobody was

2966
02:47:33,600 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 1: following the maps. But what they did was they started

2967
02:47:35,840 --> 02:47:38,600
Speaker 1: charging taxes based on the maps. And so people had

2968
02:47:38,640 --> 02:47:40,720
Speaker 1: to start making money on the land to pay the

2969
02:47:40,800 --> 02:47:42,840
Speaker 1: taxes based on the maps that have nothing to do

2970
02:47:42,920 --> 02:47:46,080
Speaker 1: with their lives, right. And what that was was the

2971
02:47:46,160 --> 02:47:49,920
Speaker 1: creation of property right. Because when we think about property,

2972
02:47:50,320 --> 02:47:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's this fiction of you know, stateless capitalism, right,

2973
02:47:53,120 --> 02:47:56,080
Speaker 1: you have like Murray Rothbard grand types we were talking about.

2974
02:47:56,400 --> 02:47:58,720
Speaker 1: You know, capitalism can exist without the state. But really

2975
02:47:58,760 --> 02:48:00,640
Speaker 1: we can see the fallacy of at when we look

2976
02:48:00,720 --> 02:48:03,879
Speaker 1: at the at the question of property right, the question

2977
02:48:04,080 --> 02:48:07,760
Speaker 1: of exclusion from property or exclusion from space. Um. Not

2978
02:48:07,879 --> 02:48:10,000
Speaker 1: only is it fragmenting public space, but we start to

2979
02:48:10,080 --> 02:48:13,680
Speaker 1: look at um the way that all of a sudden

2980
02:48:14,080 --> 02:48:17,280
Speaker 1: property has to exist. Right. And so in the Rust Belt,

2981
02:48:17,280 --> 02:48:21,720
Speaker 1: for example, after the financial crisis, cities Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit

2982
02:48:21,879 --> 02:48:23,760
Speaker 1: got all this money from the federal government to tear

2983
02:48:23,840 --> 02:48:26,879
Speaker 1: houses down, and they were tearing down like fifty houses

2984
02:48:26,920 --> 02:48:29,840
Speaker 1: a day in these cities right for years on end.

2985
02:48:30,400 --> 02:48:32,560
Speaker 1: And these are cities that have people that don't have houses.

2986
02:48:33,680 --> 02:48:35,440
Speaker 1: And so you you sit there and you go, well,

2987
02:48:35,480 --> 02:48:38,320
Speaker 1: why are they tearing houses down when there are people

2988
02:48:38,400 --> 02:48:41,920
Speaker 1: that don't have houses, right, When there's more vacant houses

2989
02:48:42,000 --> 02:48:44,920
Speaker 1: than there are people without housing, How can you justify

2990
02:48:44,959 --> 02:48:47,360
Speaker 1: tearing the houses down. And the answer was, we need

2991
02:48:47,440 --> 02:48:49,960
Speaker 1: to create a real estate market again, because if you

2992
02:48:50,000 --> 02:48:52,560
Speaker 1: allow people to just squat, there's no reason to pay

2993
02:48:52,600 --> 02:48:54,640
Speaker 1: for housing. If there's a reason to pay for housing,

2994
02:48:54,680 --> 02:48:57,840
Speaker 1: housing seasons to be a commodity. Right, Like this is

2995
02:48:57,879 --> 02:49:01,160
Speaker 1: actually the important part. Like capitalism has to function through

2996
02:49:01,200 --> 02:49:05,400
Speaker 1: that exclusion of access. Otherwise commodities can't have the scarcity

2997
02:49:05,520 --> 02:49:09,120
Speaker 1: necessary to allow them to be priced right. There can't

2998
02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:12,760
Speaker 1: be a supply that is lower than in demand, for example,

2999
02:49:13,160 --> 02:49:17,520
Speaker 1: unless you artificially limit supply. Right. And so when we

3000
02:49:17,680 --> 02:49:20,120
Speaker 1: really see this, we can really see not just the

3001
02:49:20,160 --> 02:49:23,760
Speaker 1: way that capitalism sort of atomizes us, right, creates us

3002
02:49:23,800 --> 02:49:26,880
Speaker 1: as people who live in individual housing units, as opposed

3003
02:49:26,879 --> 02:49:29,400
Speaker 1: to as people who can see ourselves as living in communities.

3004
02:49:30,080 --> 02:49:32,800
Speaker 1: But it also really comes to highlight the relationship between

3005
02:49:32,840 --> 02:49:35,160
Speaker 1: the state and the police at capital and how we

3006
02:49:35,240 --> 02:49:38,400
Speaker 1: have to understand capital as a content of the state.

3007
02:49:38,560 --> 02:49:41,959
Speaker 1: It is a definition of life that is imposed through

3008
02:49:42,040 --> 02:49:45,680
Speaker 1: policing purity and can't exist outside of that. Right, It's

3009
02:49:45,720 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 1: the fallacy of quote unquote anarcho capitalism, which isn't the

3010
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:51,800
Speaker 1: thing that really exists for this exact reason. Right, And

3011
02:49:51,959 --> 02:49:54,800
Speaker 1: so when we're looking at why are democrats engaging in

3012
02:49:54,920 --> 02:49:58,160
Speaker 1: techniques that involve pushing people off the streets, this is

3013
02:49:58,200 --> 02:50:01,160
Speaker 1: exactly why it's a capital was political property. They're trying

3014
02:50:01,160 --> 02:50:04,520
Speaker 1: to maintain properly, They're trying to be properly value, right,

3015
02:50:04,600 --> 02:50:07,200
Speaker 1: And this is why you see this happen in cities

3016
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:11,360
Speaker 1: where gentrification is really horrible and a much much faster

3017
02:50:11,520 --> 02:50:13,800
Speaker 1: clip than you see it in cities where there's like

3018
02:50:13,879 --> 02:50:16,440
Speaker 1: open housing stock. That really makes me think about the

3019
02:50:16,760 --> 02:50:21,040
Speaker 1: beginning of like workhouses in England in the eighteen thirties

3020
02:50:21,080 --> 02:50:22,720
Speaker 1: and the poor law reforms, and it goes back to

3021
02:50:22,760 --> 02:50:26,040
Speaker 1: what you were saying more about just that making it

3022
02:50:26,120 --> 02:50:29,920
Speaker 1: really undesirable to be poor, you know, like needing a

3023
02:50:30,000 --> 02:50:32,160
Speaker 1: group of people who are in that position, And the

3024
02:50:32,280 --> 02:50:36,400
Speaker 1: workhouses was something that were introduced by liberals, progressives, you know,

3025
02:50:36,520 --> 02:50:39,160
Speaker 1: like this as a form of like changing this or

3026
02:50:39,280 --> 02:50:41,960
Speaker 1: poor release system. So instead of giving people money so

3027
02:50:42,080 --> 02:50:44,240
Speaker 1: they could be supported and stay with their families or whatever.

3028
02:50:44,600 --> 02:50:47,320
Speaker 1: People would put into these institutions where they're separated from

3029
02:50:47,360 --> 02:50:50,360
Speaker 1: their kids, from their husbands and wives or whatever. And

3030
02:50:50,480 --> 02:50:52,960
Speaker 1: it's meant to be so undesirable that you would only

3031
02:50:53,040 --> 02:50:55,920
Speaker 1: seek it if you was desperately needed it or whatever,

3032
02:50:56,720 --> 02:50:58,760
Speaker 1: um as a way to like save on taxes for

3033
02:50:59,120 --> 02:51:02,000
Speaker 1: like money. Basically it's really sucked up. And it's like

3034
02:51:02,160 --> 02:51:05,640
Speaker 1: this was part of the sort social reform progressive like project,

3035
02:51:05,760 --> 02:51:07,320
Speaker 1: and I think we can see echoes of that in this.

3036
02:51:07,680 --> 02:51:09,040
Speaker 1: The other thing that I wanted to bring up is

3037
02:51:09,080 --> 02:51:11,520
Speaker 1: like you talked about atomizing and isolating and like how

3038
02:51:11,680 --> 02:51:14,560
Speaker 1: capitalism does that. One thing that I think about specifically

3039
02:51:14,640 --> 02:51:17,760
Speaker 1: New York is that homeless and camps do offer this

3040
02:51:17,920 --> 02:51:19,640
Speaker 1: radical idea of like what it looks like to take

3041
02:51:19,680 --> 02:51:22,480
Speaker 1: back a public space and to collectively like meet together,

3042
02:51:22,600 --> 02:51:23,880
Speaker 1: you know. And like that's the other thing that I

3043
02:51:24,000 --> 02:51:25,960
Speaker 1: was thinking about last night when I was high, this

3044
02:51:26,080 --> 02:51:29,320
Speaker 1: whole idea of what happens if we just allow homeless

3045
02:51:29,560 --> 02:51:32,360
Speaker 1: encampments to spread and take over. Then people who are

3046
02:51:32,400 --> 02:51:35,120
Speaker 1: not homeless start interacting with homeless people as we do

3047
02:51:35,360 --> 02:51:37,640
Speaker 1: like people in the city do. Then you form these

3048
02:51:37,680 --> 02:51:40,720
Speaker 1: connections in these relationships, and then it becomes perfectly normal

3049
02:51:41,080 --> 02:51:43,560
Speaker 1: for people to take over public spaces, and then what

3050
02:51:43,640 --> 02:51:46,080
Speaker 1: does that mean? Then we have to provide services in

3051
02:51:46,120 --> 02:51:49,200
Speaker 1: public spaces like bathrooms and showers because the public would

3052
02:51:49,320 --> 02:51:51,840
Speaker 1: start requesting and like asking for these things the more

3053
02:51:51,879 --> 02:51:54,280
Speaker 1: of a relationship they form with homeless folks. So I

3054
02:51:54,320 --> 02:51:57,200
Speaker 1: think part of the cleaning, which is what the term

3055
02:51:57,360 --> 02:52:00,400
Speaker 1: Eric Adams is used, which is absolutely disgusting terms of

3056
02:52:00,440 --> 02:52:03,199
Speaker 1: like moving homeless people the whole, I think a huge

3057
02:52:03,280 --> 02:52:06,600
Speaker 1: part of it is also just like destroying the notion

3058
02:52:06,720 --> 02:52:09,000
Speaker 1: that we own public spaces, like you do not own

3059
02:52:09,080 --> 02:52:10,640
Speaker 1: a public space, and we want to let you know

3060
02:52:10,800 --> 02:52:12,680
Speaker 1: that and we want you out. Um. So I think

3061
02:52:12,720 --> 02:52:15,040
Speaker 1: that really And and the additional aspect of that too

3062
02:52:15,120 --> 02:52:16,400
Speaker 1: is like when you look at homeless is in New York,

3063
02:52:16,400 --> 02:52:18,320
Speaker 1: like a huge chunk of it like black people too,

3064
02:52:18,360 --> 02:52:20,480
Speaker 1: So there's like a racial component of it too. When

3065
02:52:20,520 --> 02:52:22,199
Speaker 1: you really want to add it for this whole idea

3066
02:52:22,200 --> 02:52:24,039
Speaker 1: of like black people are not allowed to take up

3067
02:52:24,080 --> 02:52:26,240
Speaker 1: space and then specifically if you're homeless, you're not allowed

3068
02:52:26,240 --> 02:52:27,920
Speaker 1: to take up public space. I wanted to bring that in.

3069
02:52:28,000 --> 02:52:30,280
Speaker 1: It's like very much related to work, but also just

3070
02:52:30,400 --> 02:52:32,480
Speaker 1: related to the idea that the government owns everything and

3071
02:52:32,600 --> 02:52:36,320
Speaker 1: corporations own everything, including the spaces that we exist in. Well,

3072
02:52:36,400 --> 02:52:40,400
Speaker 1: speaking of corporations owning everything, here's some words from our sponsors.

3073
02:52:44,680 --> 02:52:48,400
Speaker 1: Across the US, in large cities, often controlled by Democrats,

3074
02:52:48,680 --> 02:52:51,400
Speaker 1: a war on the poor, and specifically on encampments of

3075
02:52:51,480 --> 02:52:54,760
Speaker 1: houses people has been increasing ways over the past year.

3076
02:52:55,240 --> 02:52:59,080
Speaker 1: In San Francisco, the city's mayor, London Breed recently declared

3077
02:52:59,120 --> 02:53:01,520
Speaker 1: it was time to que be less tolerant of all

3078
02:53:01,560 --> 02:53:04,360
Speaker 1: the bullshit that has destroyed our city, an effort to

3079
02:53:04,480 --> 02:53:07,959
Speaker 1: ramp up police harassment of the poor and unhoused. In Portland,

3080
02:53:08,080 --> 02:53:11,280
Speaker 1: city officials openly toyed with the idea of forcing quote

3081
02:53:11,480 --> 02:53:14,600
Speaker 1: up to three thousand homeless people in the massive temporary

3082
02:53:14,680 --> 02:53:18,760
Speaker 1: shelters staffed by the Oregon National Guard, while on California,

3083
02:53:19,120 --> 02:53:23,480
Speaker 1: the Democratic governor Gavin Newsom has pushed for quote care courts,

3084
02:53:23,640 --> 02:53:26,080
Speaker 1: which threatened to place those who do not complete state

3085
02:53:26,160 --> 02:53:31,680
Speaker 1: directives under involuntary hospitalization of policy, which mirrors efforts already

3086
02:53:31,800 --> 02:53:36,120
Speaker 1: underway in New York. Bands against camping, panhandling, sleeping in

3087
02:53:36,200 --> 02:53:40,280
Speaker 1: one's car have also proliferated last spring For instance, Tennessee

3088
02:53:40,400 --> 02:53:42,800
Speaker 1: made it a felony to camp on public owned land.

3089
02:53:43,080 --> 02:53:46,200
Speaker 1: In Missouri, those caught sleeping on state property could now

3090
02:53:46,280 --> 02:53:49,080
Speaker 1: get jail time and fines under a new law that

3091
02:53:49,200 --> 02:53:52,240
Speaker 1: just went into effect on January one. Other new laws

3092
02:53:52,360 --> 02:53:55,279
Speaker 1: out lawn caminton, l a next to schools and forbid

3093
02:53:55,360 --> 02:53:58,400
Speaker 1: houses folks from sleeping on public transit in New York.

3094
02:53:58,640 --> 02:54:02,160
Speaker 1: In the progressive bashing the Asheville, North Carolina, over a

3095
02:54:02,320 --> 02:54:05,920
Speaker 1: dozen mutual aid organizers also now faced trumped up charges

3096
02:54:06,120 --> 02:54:10,279
Speaker 1: of felony littering for supporting protest against sweeps of encampments.

3097
02:54:10,920 --> 02:54:13,880
Speaker 1: This shift in many liberal cities to criminalize attack and

3098
02:54:13,959 --> 02:54:17,040
Speaker 1: band encampments shows just how much the Democratic Party has

3099
02:54:17,120 --> 02:54:20,400
Speaker 1: continued to move to the right while embracing Republicans line

3100
02:54:20,480 --> 02:54:24,480
Speaker 1: on combating rising crime. Instead of mobilizing the state's forces

3101
02:54:24,560 --> 02:54:26,760
Speaker 1: to house people need their most basic needs in a

3102
02:54:26,840 --> 02:54:30,160
Speaker 1: period of mass pandemic and a growing housing crisis, liberal

3103
02:54:30,240 --> 02:54:33,680
Speaker 1: governments across the country have instead mobilized their forces to

3104
02:54:33,760 --> 02:54:36,200
Speaker 1: attack some of the most vulnerable. When you know more

3105
02:54:36,240 --> 02:54:39,200
Speaker 1: about what's driving these ongoing attacks on the houses and

3106
02:54:39,280 --> 02:54:42,000
Speaker 1: how it relates to the housing crisis itself, we sat

3107
02:54:42,080 --> 02:54:45,200
Speaker 1: down with Gifford Hartman, a long time radical organizer in

3108
02:54:45,240 --> 02:54:49,400
Speaker 1: the Bay Area. In a former squatter movements arise like

3109
02:54:49,520 --> 02:54:53,760
Speaker 1: say the George Floyd Uprising, and there's some changes. There's

3110
02:54:53,800 --> 02:54:57,720
Speaker 1: some movement towards reforms the police brutality and things like that,

3111
02:54:57,879 --> 02:55:00,360
Speaker 1: and then there's kind of a backlash. And I think

3112
02:55:00,480 --> 02:55:02,560
Speaker 1: right now we're kind of suffering through a backlash. And

3113
02:55:02,640 --> 02:55:04,920
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of a pattern that happens, is

3114
02:55:05,800 --> 02:55:08,880
Speaker 1: there's pushback kind of penal reform, trying to ring the

3115
02:55:08,879 --> 02:55:10,800
Speaker 1: pelias in a little bit, and then the kind of

3116
02:55:10,879 --> 02:55:14,600
Speaker 1: the backlash means just the police have more power and

3117
02:55:14,640 --> 02:55:16,840
Speaker 1: they have more power to really kind of brutalize on

3118
02:55:16,920 --> 02:55:19,360
Speaker 1: house people. And I think we're living through that right now.

3119
02:55:19,560 --> 02:55:23,160
Speaker 1: I think the trends go, you know, like back and forth,

3120
02:55:23,280 --> 02:55:25,560
Speaker 1: and the pendulum has swung in the direction where right

3121
02:55:25,640 --> 02:55:29,880
Speaker 1: now in San Francisco there's constant sweeps of tents and

3122
02:55:30,040 --> 02:55:32,600
Speaker 1: how and how's people living on the streets. There's a

3123
02:55:32,680 --> 02:55:35,160
Speaker 1: lot of media support given to that, and it's kind

3124
02:55:35,200 --> 02:55:37,120
Speaker 1: of like, as I said, the tail lags the dog

3125
02:55:37,240 --> 02:55:39,480
Speaker 1: and then they start doing all this stuff and the

3126
02:55:39,560 --> 02:55:42,959
Speaker 1: pushback hasn't really Activism hasn't really been able to kind

3127
02:55:42,959 --> 02:55:45,240
Speaker 1: of stand up to that and stop it or even

3128
02:55:45,360 --> 02:55:48,560
Speaker 1: challenge it. Right now, at least what I see, booms

3129
02:55:48,600 --> 02:55:51,360
Speaker 1: happen and property values go up and vacancies go to

3130
02:55:51,480 --> 02:55:55,400
Speaker 1: almost zero, the cops cracked down harder. And I think

3131
02:55:55,440 --> 02:55:58,400
Speaker 1: there have been periods at least in my lifetime here

3132
02:55:58,400 --> 02:56:00,600
Speaker 1: in the Bay Area, where there's out of a lulla,

3133
02:56:00,640 --> 02:56:03,600
Speaker 1: there's the bottom of the trough, when maybe there's more vacancies,

3134
02:56:03,640 --> 02:56:05,959
Speaker 1: a little bit more wiggle room, the cups quite aren't

3135
02:56:06,000 --> 02:56:09,039
Speaker 1: quite so brutal. But when things are peaking, or when

3136
02:56:09,120 --> 02:56:12,920
Speaker 1: the economies, you know, it's dynamic, kind of high poise,

3137
02:56:13,840 --> 02:56:16,000
Speaker 1: that's where I see the repression is the worst, because

3138
02:56:16,040 --> 02:56:18,960
Speaker 1: there's more people to complain. There's more people whose you know,

3139
02:56:19,200 --> 02:56:22,960
Speaker 1: values are tied to property and who are more willing

3140
02:56:23,040 --> 02:56:26,680
Speaker 1: to push the cops to brutalize on house people and um.

3141
02:56:26,800 --> 02:56:29,800
Speaker 1: But you know, right now it's kind of framed because

3142
02:56:29,920 --> 02:56:33,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of tech layoffs. Yet the agenda of

3143
02:56:33,680 --> 02:56:37,280
Speaker 1: sweeping tense and none house people off the streets is

3144
02:56:37,360 --> 02:56:40,920
Speaker 1: kind of still kind of a rapid pace. So I

3145
02:56:41,160 --> 02:56:43,080
Speaker 1: don't know how much longer to last, but right now

3146
02:56:43,080 --> 02:56:45,640
Speaker 1: it's at a pretty high point as we speak. The

3147
02:56:45,720 --> 02:56:48,800
Speaker 1: weather is awful and the sweeps haven't really stopped, and

3148
02:56:48,920 --> 02:56:51,400
Speaker 1: there aren't enough shelter beds to house although on the

3149
02:56:51,480 --> 02:56:54,600
Speaker 1: house folks. So it's really a crisis. It's not only

3150
02:56:54,720 --> 02:56:57,440
Speaker 1: just a you know, human crisis, but it's a health

3151
02:56:57,520 --> 02:57:00,720
Speaker 1: crisis because people out in the cold rain are more

3152
02:57:00,800 --> 02:57:03,600
Speaker 1: vulnerable to getting sick and dying. And it's it should

3153
02:57:03,640 --> 02:57:06,040
Speaker 1: be the time where we're doing the opposite. We're making

3154
02:57:06,040 --> 02:57:09,920
Speaker 1: sure everybody's housed, and it just certainly isn't happening. Even

3155
02:57:09,959 --> 02:57:13,640
Speaker 1: though San Francisco, the Marits have been Democrats, I believe

3156
02:57:13,720 --> 02:57:17,400
Speaker 1: since the mid sixties. The Democrats aren't a monolith, and

3157
02:57:17,480 --> 02:57:20,200
Speaker 1: they're not all progressive, and even the progressive ones aren't

3158
02:57:20,240 --> 02:57:22,879
Speaker 1: that good. But the ones that are in power now,

3159
02:57:23,040 --> 02:57:27,879
Speaker 1: like mayor London Breed are moderates, and um, they really

3160
02:57:27,920 --> 02:57:30,520
Speaker 1: are more believe in the police more, and they believe

3161
02:57:30,560 --> 02:57:34,120
Speaker 1: in using police for social crimes. And when they're not moderate,

3162
02:57:34,600 --> 02:57:36,680
Speaker 1: it's a little less bad, but it's not better, it's

3163
02:57:36,720 --> 02:57:38,920
Speaker 1: just less bad. I don't know if that really makes sense,

3164
02:57:39,240 --> 02:57:41,400
Speaker 1: because I don't think there's ever been a political regime

3165
02:57:41,480 --> 02:57:44,600
Speaker 1: in San Francisco. That wasn't pro cop. You know, everybody

3166
02:57:44,680 --> 02:57:48,080
Speaker 1: loves the cops. Everybody sees the cops is um ways

3167
02:57:48,120 --> 02:57:50,720
Speaker 1: to enforce the social values of society, which are private

3168
02:57:50,760 --> 02:57:53,240
Speaker 1: property and all that. And it just never stops. It

3169
02:57:53,320 --> 02:57:55,520
Speaker 1: just depends how brutal they are. And again, unless I

3170
02:57:55,600 --> 02:57:58,760
Speaker 1: said earlier, it goes through waves. And presently we're in

3171
02:57:58,800 --> 02:58:02,200
Speaker 1: a brutal way and the only alternative that is a

3172
02:58:02,280 --> 02:58:05,120
Speaker 1: less rutal way. And so my opinion, there's never a

3173
02:58:05,160 --> 02:58:07,840
Speaker 1: time when the cops don't, you know, run rapid, but

3174
02:58:08,040 --> 02:58:09,840
Speaker 1: just right now. But right now they're actually at the

3175
02:58:09,920 --> 02:58:12,680
Speaker 1: high point that they've been in a long time. And

3176
02:58:12,760 --> 02:58:15,120
Speaker 1: now we speak with Javier from the National Coach on

3177
02:58:15,200 --> 02:58:18,320
Speaker 1: Homelessness in San Francisco. We talk about the current wave

3178
02:58:18,360 --> 02:58:20,720
Speaker 1: of a tox against house those people in big cities

3179
02:58:20,920 --> 02:58:24,160
Speaker 1: and how they mirror historic attempts at policing and repressing

3180
02:58:24,320 --> 02:58:27,240
Speaker 1: the poor. The income that you need to rent a

3181
02:58:27,320 --> 02:58:31,360
Speaker 1: two bedroom apartment, by the city's own estimation, you need

3182
02:58:31,480 --> 02:58:34,800
Speaker 1: an hourly wage of about sixty one fifty to have

3183
02:58:35,320 --> 02:58:39,440
Speaker 1: an apartment like that. So the income gap is becoming

3184
02:58:39,720 --> 02:58:43,480
Speaker 1: more evident than ever. Nowadays, there's a nine percent increase

3185
02:58:43,560 --> 02:58:46,560
Speaker 1: in homelessness for every hundred dollar increase in rents. So

3186
02:58:46,680 --> 02:58:51,320
Speaker 1: it's like if healthcare, housing, education all gets more expensive

3187
02:58:51,360 --> 02:58:55,320
Speaker 1: but wages don't go up, people are gonna lose their housing. Um. So,

3188
02:58:55,440 --> 02:58:59,480
Speaker 1: I think people need to understand and how similar we

3189
02:58:59,600 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 1: are to the unhoused population and how important it is

3190
02:59:02,680 --> 02:59:05,560
Speaker 1: to recognize that we should have solidarity with each other,

3191
02:59:05,640 --> 02:59:08,640
Speaker 1: because if we're fighting against each other, then guests is

3192
02:59:08,680 --> 02:59:12,960
Speaker 1: when the millionaires in the build we're doing the city

3193
02:59:13,280 --> 02:59:17,520
Speaker 1: because when they do these sweeps, they're taking people's belongings,

3194
02:59:17,720 --> 02:59:20,960
Speaker 1: which is a legal searcuncedure and cruel and unusual punishment

3195
02:59:21,040 --> 02:59:24,040
Speaker 1: because the shelter that they're offering a lot of times

3196
02:59:24,200 --> 02:59:28,560
Speaker 1: isn't adequate for the folks who are being sweat. We're

3197
02:59:28,600 --> 02:59:33,000
Speaker 1: looking for permanent supportive housing for folks and it's not there.

3198
02:59:33,280 --> 02:59:35,560
Speaker 1: And if you're telling people that they have to move

3199
02:59:35,600 --> 02:59:39,520
Speaker 1: across the street every day in the morning, then it

3200
02:59:39,720 --> 02:59:42,280
Speaker 1: kind of shows I think a social and kind of

3201
02:59:42,360 --> 02:59:47,680
Speaker 1: cultural understanding that mirrors the ugly laws people have had

3202
02:59:47,760 --> 02:59:50,920
Speaker 1: in place, especially in America for a long time, which

3203
02:59:51,000 --> 02:59:54,800
Speaker 1: is homeless people are not supposed to be seen and

3204
02:59:55,320 --> 02:59:58,880
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be criminalized and speaking of things that

3205
02:59:59,000 --> 03:00:02,400
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be scene again some words from our sponsors,

3206
03:00:05,680 --> 03:00:09,560
Speaker 1: from resisting sweeps, studying up autonomous warming centers, to taking

3207
03:00:09,640 --> 03:00:13,240
Speaker 1: over vacant buildings. Over the past few years, there's been

3208
03:00:13,240 --> 03:00:16,880
Speaker 1: a wide array of expressions of solidarity, direct action, and

3209
03:00:17,080 --> 03:00:19,280
Speaker 1: mutual aid in the face of attempts by the state

3210
03:00:19,400 --> 03:00:22,760
Speaker 1: to displace and destroy the lives of houses people across

3211
03:00:22,879 --> 03:00:26,000
Speaker 1: the US. But these projects and actions haven't come out

3212
03:00:26,040 --> 03:00:29,120
Speaker 1: of nowhere, building on the radical history of groups in

3213
03:00:29,160 --> 03:00:32,119
Speaker 1: the Bay Area, such as the Diggers and the White Panthers,

3214
03:00:32,520 --> 03:00:35,920
Speaker 1: who set up free stores, grocery programs, and squatted buildings.

3215
03:00:36,200 --> 03:00:39,600
Speaker 1: Starting in the nineteen eighties, out of the anti nuclear movement,

3216
03:00:39,760 --> 03:00:43,119
Speaker 1: peace activists began sharing free vegan food in a protest

3217
03:00:43,200 --> 03:00:46,440
Speaker 1: of the US war budget under the banner Food not Bombs.

3218
03:00:46,840 --> 03:00:49,320
Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties, Food Not Bombs in San

3219
03:00:49,320 --> 03:00:53,280
Speaker 1: Francisco faced over one thousand arrest for sharing free food

3220
03:00:53,360 --> 03:00:57,560
Speaker 1: publicly and taking part in demonstrations. Soon, another group, Homes

3221
03:00:57,640 --> 03:01:00,360
Speaker 1: not Jails, evolved out of the same scene and began

3222
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:03,080
Speaker 1: to open up and squat vacant housing, part of a

3223
03:01:03,160 --> 03:01:07,199
Speaker 1: wave of other houses activist groups that sprouted nationwide following

3224
03:01:07,280 --> 03:01:10,800
Speaker 1: the economic recession of the nineteen eighties. Chapters of Homes

3225
03:01:10,879 --> 03:01:14,800
Speaker 1: Not Jail's work to open squats weekly to covertly house people,

3226
03:01:15,000 --> 03:01:19,360
Speaker 1: also organizing public housing takeovers, which thrust squatting into the

3227
03:01:19,400 --> 03:01:23,080
Speaker 1: spotlight of the mass media. Again, here's Gifford Hartman talking

3228
03:01:23,120 --> 03:01:26,160
Speaker 1: about squatting in the ninety nineties. There have been a

3229
03:01:26,240 --> 03:01:30,600
Speaker 1: wave of I'm really successful squats in the nineteen seventies.

3230
03:01:30,959 --> 03:01:33,000
Speaker 1: One group was called the White Panthers that did it

3231
03:01:33,080 --> 03:01:35,480
Speaker 1: in the Lower Hate neighborhood, and they were modeled on

3232
03:01:35,600 --> 03:01:39,240
Speaker 1: the Black Panthers. So they actually squatted, but actually created

3233
03:01:39,280 --> 03:01:43,240
Speaker 1: community programs for things like new distribution. They defended their squads,

3234
03:01:43,280 --> 03:01:46,360
Speaker 1: they fortified their squads, and that was a tradition that

3235
03:01:46,480 --> 03:01:49,480
Speaker 1: kind of preceded my period of squatting. But so that

3236
03:01:49,600 --> 03:01:52,240
Speaker 1: we're both looking at the squatting in Europe but also

3237
03:01:52,320 --> 03:01:55,400
Speaker 1: the previous generations doing it here in San Francisco. Um

3238
03:01:55,480 --> 03:01:57,560
Speaker 1: I moved to the Bay Area in nineteen eight six.

3239
03:01:57,640 --> 03:01:59,880
Speaker 1: I have been Berkeley for most of the beginning of

3240
03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:02,360
Speaker 1: the years I was here. From the end of World

3241
03:02:02,440 --> 03:02:06,520
Speaker 1: War Two in the nineteen forties, the population in San

3242
03:02:06,560 --> 03:02:09,960
Speaker 1: Francisco peak in the mid twentieth century, and then it

3243
03:02:10,040 --> 03:02:13,360
Speaker 1: went down. Population decreased by a hundred thousand in the

3244
03:02:13,440 --> 03:02:15,800
Speaker 1: late eighties. There were still a lot of cracks in

3245
03:02:16,120 --> 03:02:18,920
Speaker 1: the surface of housing, and there was a lot of

3246
03:02:19,000 --> 03:02:22,160
Speaker 1: empty units. There's a lot of abandoned units, and there

3247
03:02:22,240 --> 03:02:23,920
Speaker 1: was a lot of a lot of ability to people

3248
03:02:23,959 --> 03:02:26,600
Speaker 1: to find squads and I was part of that. And

3249
03:02:26,680 --> 03:02:29,160
Speaker 1: there were various times where I either wasn't working or

3250
03:02:29,240 --> 03:02:31,680
Speaker 1: had a part time job, and I chose as a

3251
03:02:31,720 --> 03:02:34,880
Speaker 1: political active squad, and I began doing that in late eighties,

3252
03:02:34,920 --> 03:02:37,720
Speaker 1: but most of my success in squadding was in their

3253
03:02:37,720 --> 03:02:40,720
Speaker 1: early nineties. But then I kind of ran up against

3254
03:02:40,879 --> 03:02:44,080
Speaker 1: the contradiction, and groups like Homeside Jails were founded in

3255
03:02:44,160 --> 03:02:48,640
Speaker 1: nineteen two had already been squatting um. But then there

3256
03:02:48,720 --> 03:02:53,160
Speaker 1: was another wave of repression. So in nine to the

3257
03:02:53,240 --> 03:02:55,920
Speaker 1: former chief of police in San Francisco, Frank Jordan, got

3258
03:02:56,000 --> 03:02:59,200
Speaker 1: elected mayor and by nineteen ninety three he was doing

3259
03:02:59,280 --> 03:03:03,480
Speaker 1: something called the Matrix program. And the Matrix program was

3260
03:03:03,760 --> 03:03:06,680
Speaker 1: very much like what Juliani did in New York with

3261
03:03:06,959 --> 03:03:10,280
Speaker 1: his zero tolerance for broken windows, which just cops would

3262
03:03:10,280 --> 03:03:13,400
Speaker 1: get tough on quality of life crimes, which means like

3263
03:03:13,640 --> 03:03:17,760
Speaker 1: broken windows and graffiti, but it also included food not bombs.

3264
03:03:17,840 --> 03:03:21,280
Speaker 1: Feedings were attacked by the police, and squatters were even

3265
03:03:21,680 --> 03:03:24,960
Speaker 1: myself included, were attacked and cleared out, even in a

3266
03:03:25,040 --> 03:03:28,800
Speaker 1: way that was not legal. When I succeeded, we squatted covertly,

3267
03:03:28,959 --> 03:03:31,440
Speaker 1: and when we didn't succeed often we were aligned with

3268
03:03:31,520 --> 03:03:34,360
Speaker 1: groups like Homes Not Jails, where they were a high

3269
03:03:34,400 --> 03:03:38,600
Speaker 1: profile group or media savvy. Well, media savvy might be

3270
03:03:38,640 --> 03:03:41,480
Speaker 1: an overstatement. They were kind of had a media focus,

3271
03:03:41,800 --> 03:03:44,520
Speaker 1: and the media focus was often a double edged sword.

3272
03:03:44,840 --> 03:03:49,400
Speaker 1: It brought popular understanding of the conditions of the housing stock,

3273
03:03:49,480 --> 03:03:51,800
Speaker 1: but also it was a way for the police to

3274
03:03:51,879 --> 03:03:54,200
Speaker 1: be telegraphed exactly what we were doing in to come

3275
03:03:54,200 --> 03:03:57,400
Speaker 1: down and crack down on our squads. Homes on Jails

3276
03:03:57,440 --> 03:03:59,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the last group to take over vacant homes

3277
03:03:59,840 --> 03:04:02,959
Speaker 1: for housing. In mid two thousands, Take Back the Land,

3278
03:04:03,200 --> 03:04:06,280
Speaker 1: based out of Miami, Florida, work to block evictions and

3279
03:04:06,360 --> 03:04:10,119
Speaker 1: move un housed families into foreclosed homes. In the present period,

3280
03:04:10,360 --> 03:04:13,400
Speaker 1: various grassroots groups have organized to stop the sweeping of

3281
03:04:13,480 --> 03:04:17,080
Speaker 1: houses and cameras cruise in Olympia Washington and Austin, Texas

3282
03:04:17,320 --> 03:04:21,520
Speaker 1: have been successful in organizing broad campaigns. In Minneapolis, groups

3283
03:04:21,560 --> 03:04:25,040
Speaker 1: have mobilized mass numbers two at times all divictions. In

3284
03:04:25,160 --> 03:04:27,600
Speaker 1: the following interview, we speak with Christian and Post from

3285
03:04:27,640 --> 03:04:30,600
Speaker 1: Minnieapolis on the ongoing battle with the city government and

3286
03:04:30,720 --> 03:04:34,120
Speaker 1: police to stop attacks and sweeps on their houses neighbors.

3287
03:04:34,920 --> 03:04:39,480
Speaker 1: In the summer of George Floyd was murdered by Minneapolis police.

3288
03:04:39,760 --> 03:04:42,720
Speaker 1: It raised a lot of people's awareness as to the

3289
03:04:42,800 --> 03:04:46,119
Speaker 1: way that our systems and practices in our city aren't

3290
03:04:46,160 --> 03:04:49,160
Speaker 1: really serving us UM. I think there was there was

3291
03:04:49,200 --> 03:04:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot of work happening in Minneapolis in particular before

3292
03:04:52,959 --> 03:04:55,680
Speaker 1: that in regard to policing and the way that our

3293
03:04:55,720 --> 03:04:59,200
Speaker 1: systems do or do not serve people UM. And then

3294
03:04:59,520 --> 03:05:04,320
Speaker 1: in tw twenty, the awareness just grew exponentially. And because

3295
03:05:04,400 --> 03:05:09,039
Speaker 1: that foundational path had been laid already, we had something

3296
03:05:09,320 --> 03:05:12,840
Speaker 1: to go with UM and we can see the direct

3297
03:05:13,000 --> 03:05:17,240
Speaker 1: line between what happened to George Floyd and to the

3298
03:05:17,360 --> 03:05:21,280
Speaker 1: community at George Floyd Square and the way that that

3299
03:05:21,560 --> 03:05:24,640
Speaker 1: also shows up in other spaces in our communities, such

3300
03:05:24,680 --> 03:05:28,080
Speaker 1: as with our own house neighbors. We know that the

3301
03:05:28,160 --> 03:05:31,760
Speaker 1: majority of people that are living at encampments in Minneapolis

3302
03:05:31,920 --> 03:05:38,200
Speaker 1: are indigenous UM immigrant populations or UM Black Americans, and

3303
03:05:38,920 --> 03:05:41,800
Speaker 1: so we can see that there is you know, a

3304
03:05:41,920 --> 03:05:46,440
Speaker 1: specific need and also a real um a you know,

3305
03:05:46,520 --> 03:05:50,840
Speaker 1: a disparity between and a direct through line to all

3306
03:05:50,920 --> 03:05:57,400
Speaker 1: of them oppression that through in the face of every

3307
03:05:57,879 --> 03:06:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, I mean person with the heart absolutely and

3308
03:06:01,280 --> 03:06:03,920
Speaker 1: I think she started practicing a lot of mutual aid

3309
03:06:04,680 --> 03:06:08,920
Speaker 1: UM more like much bigger than we ever have his historically.

3310
03:06:08,959 --> 03:06:12,119
Speaker 1: In the summer, we saw lots of people getting involved

3311
03:06:12,160 --> 03:06:15,280
Speaker 1: that were encampments UM throughout the city as there was

3312
03:06:15,800 --> 03:06:19,520
Speaker 1: for some time because of covid UM people were able

3313
03:06:19,640 --> 03:06:23,080
Speaker 1: to stay outside and couldn't be evicted as easily UM

3314
03:06:23,160 --> 03:06:25,840
Speaker 1: at that time, and we saw lots of community getting

3315
03:06:25,879 --> 03:06:29,440
Speaker 1: involved and doing mutual aid UM and that really helped

3316
03:06:29,600 --> 03:06:33,960
Speaker 1: build I think, a movement that is you know, sort

3317
03:06:34,000 --> 03:06:37,320
Speaker 1: of beautifully disorganized in many ways because lots of people

3318
03:06:37,440 --> 03:06:40,000
Speaker 1: from lots of different walks of life coming together and

3319
03:06:40,080 --> 03:06:42,440
Speaker 1: showing up for each other. I mean, I think people

3320
03:06:42,520 --> 03:06:44,560
Speaker 1: started to become aware of the way that we are

3321
03:06:44,640 --> 03:06:47,920
Speaker 1: all connected to each other, and that when when we're

3322
03:06:47,920 --> 03:06:51,400
Speaker 1: taking care of each other, we're all happier, we're all safer,

3323
03:06:51,560 --> 03:06:54,240
Speaker 1: we're actually able to meet needs, and the resources are there.

3324
03:06:54,280 --> 03:06:57,959
Speaker 1: It's a matter of the will. I cannot over emphasize

3325
03:06:58,040 --> 03:07:03,560
Speaker 1: enough how terrible the boy Mayor Frey has been since

3326
03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:06,520
Speaker 1: he took power here and so called Minneapolis. You know,

3327
03:07:06,640 --> 03:07:11,080
Speaker 1: he ran on ending houselessness and was in majority funded

3328
03:07:11,120 --> 03:07:15,760
Speaker 1: by developers during his campaign, and we've seen what ending

3329
03:07:15,959 --> 03:07:21,199
Speaker 1: houselessness means to democrats. It basically means ending visible poverty

3330
03:07:21,440 --> 03:07:25,400
Speaker 1: and ending the new lives of houseless people. But frankly,

3331
03:07:25,520 --> 03:07:28,040
Speaker 1: I mean the number of evictions over the course of

3332
03:07:28,040 --> 03:07:31,600
Speaker 1: the last few years has just skyrocketed. And you know,

3333
03:07:31,720 --> 03:07:35,600
Speaker 1: are so called progressive politicians love to give some money

3334
03:07:35,720 --> 03:07:39,800
Speaker 1: to the nonprofit industrial complex and do their private public partnership,

3335
03:07:40,000 --> 03:07:42,680
Speaker 1: and then when there are people who are quote unquote

3336
03:07:42,959 --> 03:07:45,360
Speaker 1: resistant to service, that's the that's the phrase they love

3337
03:07:45,400 --> 03:07:49,000
Speaker 1: to use. They have all of their excuses lined ups

3338
03:07:49,120 --> 03:07:51,440
Speaker 1: that they can just build those people's houses and kick

3339
03:07:51,520 --> 03:07:53,120
Speaker 1: them out of the roofs that are keeping them warm

3340
03:07:53,160 --> 03:07:57,680
Speaker 1: and dry. And it's just been a really eye opening

3341
03:07:57,800 --> 03:07:59,760
Speaker 1: thing for a lot of people, I think, to see

3342
03:08:00,480 --> 03:08:04,560
Speaker 1: how our progressive quote unquote establishment here has just fully

3343
03:08:04,640 --> 03:08:07,520
Speaker 1: committed to jack boot thuggery, all in the name of

3344
03:08:07,640 --> 03:08:10,040
Speaker 1: clearing the streets and making it so that people in

3345
03:08:10,160 --> 03:08:13,800
Speaker 1: their kind of four story mixed use of condos can

3346
03:08:14,120 --> 03:08:16,840
Speaker 1: can have a beautiful view without having to see the

3347
03:08:16,920 --> 03:08:20,080
Speaker 1: poverty that that lifestyle the suff You know, in the summer,

3348
03:08:20,920 --> 03:08:23,520
Speaker 1: there were several council at the time, council members who

3349
03:08:23,600 --> 03:08:27,400
Speaker 1: committed to UM defunding the police. However, that did not

3350
03:08:27,520 --> 03:08:31,160
Speaker 1: come to fruition UM. Since that time, there's been um

3351
03:08:31,560 --> 03:08:35,520
Speaker 1: increases in the budget to policing in Minneapolis, no decreases,

3352
03:08:35,680 --> 03:08:39,000
Speaker 1: only increases that police haven't been able to spend their

3353
03:08:39,000 --> 03:08:42,039
Speaker 1: whole budget, and yet the city continues to pour more

3354
03:08:42,120 --> 03:08:45,439
Speaker 1: money into them. And what we're seeing happen is unhoused

3355
03:08:45,560 --> 03:08:48,920
Speaker 1: people come together to keep one another safe and also

3356
03:08:48,959 --> 03:08:52,200
Speaker 1: so community is able to stay connected with them. And

3357
03:08:52,800 --> 03:08:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, we'll be in an encampment and then various

3358
03:08:55,959 --> 03:08:59,119
Speaker 1: levels of discovery of government will come in and displace them,

3359
03:08:59,680 --> 03:09:02,040
Speaker 1: and and so the people don't have anywhere else to go,

3360
03:09:02,400 --> 03:09:05,119
Speaker 1: so they need to move to a new space together.

3361
03:09:05,520 --> 03:09:09,200
Speaker 1: So what's happening is not housing. What's happening is not

3362
03:09:09,440 --> 03:09:12,160
Speaker 1: even laying a foundation for somebody to be able to

3363
03:09:12,320 --> 03:09:15,800
Speaker 1: get the services or support that they may want or need.

3364
03:09:16,160 --> 03:09:20,720
Speaker 1: What's happening is displacement. When somebody hears about an eviction

3365
03:09:20,840 --> 03:09:25,920
Speaker 1: potentially happening, it becomes a situation that's it's almost it's

3366
03:09:25,920 --> 03:09:29,520
Speaker 1: almost kind of magical that people come together and it

3367
03:09:30,360 --> 03:09:34,040
Speaker 1: is kind of chaotic, but it always comes together and

3368
03:09:34,200 --> 03:09:36,720
Speaker 1: we end up having whether it's people they're doing cop

3369
03:09:36,800 --> 03:09:39,720
Speaker 1: watch or are just neighbors, like we had neighbors show

3370
03:09:39,920 --> 03:09:42,120
Speaker 1: up on the first day the day that the Corey

3371
03:09:42,240 --> 03:09:45,800
Speaker 1: was planned to be evicted on December UM, I can't

3372
03:09:45,840 --> 03:09:48,320
Speaker 1: tell you how many different people that just live in

3373
03:09:48,440 --> 03:09:51,720
Speaker 1: that area. We're coming up and asking questions, and we're

3374
03:09:51,800 --> 03:09:56,000
Speaker 1: appalled at the response from the city because really that

3375
03:09:56,240 --> 03:09:59,680
Speaker 1: the Corey encampment was in a space that you could

3376
03:09:59,680 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 1: barely see it. You wouldn't know it was there. If

3377
03:10:01,400 --> 03:10:04,080
Speaker 1: you didn't know it was there, you know, And we're

3378
03:10:04,080 --> 03:10:06,120
Speaker 1: talking about by the last day, the day that it

3379
03:10:06,560 --> 03:10:09,880
Speaker 1: was evicted, there were eight people there and over a

3380
03:10:09,959 --> 03:10:13,200
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty police officers. It was bonkers and that

3381
03:10:13,440 --> 03:10:16,600
Speaker 1: extreme response is something that when you see it, you

3382
03:10:16,720 --> 03:10:19,840
Speaker 1: can't unsee it. And so we come together in what

3383
03:10:20,080 --> 03:10:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, you get in where you fit in, with

3384
03:10:21,600 --> 03:10:24,600
Speaker 1: whatever skills you have, whatever gifts you have, whatever time

3385
03:10:24,640 --> 03:10:27,000
Speaker 1: you have, you know, and a lot of us show

3386
03:10:27,120 --> 03:10:30,119
Speaker 1: up because we are people who have experienced other forms

3387
03:10:30,160 --> 03:10:32,920
Speaker 1: of trauma or have seen and experienced other forms of

3388
03:10:32,959 --> 03:10:36,960
Speaker 1: oppression too. You can't unsee it once you do. In

3389
03:10:37,040 --> 03:10:40,360
Speaker 1: the last few years, mutual aid and autonomous disaster relief

3390
03:10:40,440 --> 03:10:43,800
Speaker 1: efforts having formed projects like heat or Block, the squatting

3391
03:10:43,879 --> 03:10:47,160
Speaker 1: of land for people displaced by climate change, field fires,

3392
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:50,080
Speaker 1: and the setting up of autonomous warming centers in the

3393
03:10:50,160 --> 03:10:54,400
Speaker 1: middle of winter. In the winter of autonomous groups across

3394
03:10:54,520 --> 03:10:58,040
Speaker 1: Texas also mobilized when the state's electrical grid failed and

3395
03:10:58,160 --> 03:11:01,760
Speaker 1: hundreds of people tragically died the lack of heat. Autonomous

3396
03:11:01,800 --> 03:11:04,800
Speaker 1: groups have also worked to directly house people in the

3397
03:11:04,879 --> 03:11:07,720
Speaker 1: Los Angeles area. This has looked like houses folks taking

3398
03:11:07,800 --> 03:11:10,760
Speaker 1: over homes owned by Caltrans, and various groups in the

3399
03:11:10,840 --> 03:11:14,560
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest, occupying in domaining access to hotels in the

3400
03:11:14,680 --> 03:11:19,240
Speaker 1: dead of winter in Philadelphia and housing activists squatted and

3401
03:11:19,320 --> 03:11:22,560
Speaker 1: then won the keys to homes for upwards of fifty

3402
03:11:22,680 --> 03:11:25,480
Speaker 1: unused families in the midst of the George Floyd Rebellion,

3403
03:11:26,040 --> 03:11:29,600
Speaker 1: and there have been other success stories as well. In Boise, Idaho,

3404
03:11:29,840 --> 03:11:33,240
Speaker 1: after months of ongoing protests by houses folks and their supporters,

3405
03:11:33,400 --> 03:11:35,560
Speaker 1: the city was pushed to green light the building enough

3406
03:11:35,640 --> 03:11:39,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of housing units. In Berkeley, California, last summer, people

3407
03:11:39,520 --> 03:11:42,280
Speaker 1: once again tore down the fences surrounding people's park and

3408
03:11:42,360 --> 03:11:46,640
Speaker 1: destroyed machines, stopping the destruction of the autonomous enclave. Once again.

3409
03:11:47,440 --> 03:11:51,360
Speaker 1: In Sacramento, California, households people and their supporters beat back

3410
03:11:51,400 --> 03:11:54,960
Speaker 1: in eviction attempt at Camp Resolution, a parking lot which

3411
03:11:55,040 --> 03:11:57,400
Speaker 1: is home to people living in their vehicles and r vs.

3412
03:11:57,879 --> 03:12:01,920
Speaker 1: Here's two Camp Resolution residents, Sharon and Satara, who speak

3413
03:12:01,959 --> 03:12:05,040
Speaker 1: on the deadly impact of sweeps. I think that the

3414
03:12:05,200 --> 03:12:08,920
Speaker 1: biggest thing is like being treated inhumanely, you know what

3415
03:12:08,920 --> 03:12:12,119
Speaker 1: I mean, or or rudely or like you're an animals.

3416
03:12:12,320 --> 03:12:14,600
Speaker 1: They're very mean to people, you know what I mean.

3417
03:12:14,680 --> 03:12:17,360
Speaker 1: When they sweep you, they take people's stuff and just

3418
03:12:17,560 --> 03:12:20,080
Speaker 1: throw it out, No don't matter if it matters to

3419
03:12:20,200 --> 03:12:22,240
Speaker 1: them or you know what I mean, or you know

3420
03:12:22,720 --> 03:12:25,640
Speaker 1: which you know creates mental health issues for some people

3421
03:12:25,720 --> 03:12:28,640
Speaker 1: because people get traumatized from stuff like that. You know

3422
03:12:28,680 --> 03:12:30,960
Speaker 1: what I mean, You just coming in and the only

3423
03:12:31,000 --> 03:12:33,320
Speaker 1: place that they have that they can call home or

3424
03:12:33,720 --> 03:12:36,920
Speaker 1: a place of shelter. And you know, stormy times like this,

3425
03:12:37,160 --> 03:12:40,800
Speaker 1: you know, they come and even now while it's raining,

3426
03:12:40,920 --> 03:12:43,240
Speaker 1: and make them move and tell them, you know, they

3427
03:12:43,280 --> 03:12:45,400
Speaker 1: gotta go throw their things out or you know what

3428
03:12:45,480 --> 03:12:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean, make them leave without whatever they you know

3429
03:12:49,200 --> 03:12:51,960
Speaker 1: what I mean, whatever, no matter if it's important to

3430
03:12:52,040 --> 03:12:53,960
Speaker 1: them or not, you know what I mean. Like, I

3431
03:12:54,040 --> 03:12:56,440
Speaker 1: think that's the most messed up part because like I

3432
03:12:56,560 --> 03:12:58,880
Speaker 1: have a friend out here who who lost you know,

3433
03:12:59,160 --> 03:13:01,960
Speaker 1: her child ashes, you know what I mean, half the

3434
03:13:02,320 --> 03:13:04,680
Speaker 1: half of the people that were at the we lose

3435
03:13:04,720 --> 03:13:06,880
Speaker 1: contact with and and every time they sweep that to

3436
03:13:06,879 --> 03:13:10,200
Speaker 1: another half. And they're just diminishing people. Where people are good,

3437
03:13:10,240 --> 03:13:14,120
Speaker 1: where are people going? They're just disappearing. And before the

3438
03:13:14,280 --> 03:13:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, people who do need like other help with

3439
03:13:18,480 --> 03:13:21,000
Speaker 1: other things, help things and stuff like that, the harm

3440
03:13:21,040 --> 03:13:23,400
Speaker 1: reduction people and stuff like that that come out and

3441
03:13:23,560 --> 03:13:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, give people things their needs, you know what

3442
03:13:25,879 --> 03:13:29,400
Speaker 1: I mean, they'll they move you around, they can't be found.

3443
03:13:29,640 --> 03:13:33,879
Speaker 1: People can die, and people die like that all the time,

3444
03:13:34,680 --> 03:13:37,600
Speaker 1: especially you know when they move us around. Sometimes we

3445
03:13:37,640 --> 03:13:39,879
Speaker 1: got to go to areas that are not necessarily safe,

3446
03:13:40,000 --> 03:13:42,400
Speaker 1: especially the women, you know what I mean, women die

3447
03:13:42,440 --> 03:13:47,560
Speaker 1: out here all the time. Separated calf resolution was formed because, uh,

3448
03:13:47,720 --> 03:13:49,960
Speaker 1: this lot that we're on, it was part of the

3449
03:13:50,040 --> 03:13:53,560
Speaker 1: original sighting plan and they spent six hundred seventeen thousand

3450
03:13:53,600 --> 03:13:55,680
Speaker 1: dollars on this for a fence in a parking lot

3451
03:13:56,600 --> 03:13:59,400
Speaker 1: and promised folks that they would that they were going

3452
03:13:59,440 --> 03:14:02,920
Speaker 1: to get them too little tidy houses or trailers so

3453
03:14:03,080 --> 03:14:05,120
Speaker 1: they can get back on their feet and get housing.

3454
03:14:06,000 --> 03:14:08,360
Speaker 1: They swept them off the lot as soon as they

3455
03:14:08,400 --> 03:14:10,920
Speaker 1: were finished with this. They just came out. They came

3456
03:14:11,000 --> 03:14:13,440
Speaker 1: and viciously swept them off of the property the other

3457
03:14:13,480 --> 03:14:16,760
Speaker 1: side of the property we're on and could a fence

3458
03:14:16,879 --> 03:14:19,920
Speaker 1: up and promised those people and they got nothing, and

3459
03:14:19,959 --> 03:14:22,520
Speaker 1: then didn't even bother to contact them or anything, and

3460
03:14:22,640 --> 03:14:25,160
Speaker 1: just left those people hanging after they signed up for

3461
03:14:25,240 --> 03:14:28,640
Speaker 1: all the services and were denied. And my sister in

3462
03:14:28,720 --> 03:14:31,640
Speaker 1: law was one of those people, and she's a quadriplegic

3463
03:14:32,120 --> 03:14:34,640
Speaker 1: and she's still waiting for housing, and we weren't gonna

3464
03:14:34,640 --> 03:14:37,439
Speaker 1: have another winter of her being down on the countyside

3465
03:14:37,520 --> 03:14:39,800
Speaker 1: in the weather, in the water. So that's why we

3466
03:14:39,920 --> 03:14:43,040
Speaker 1: started it and if we're here for safety so we

3467
03:14:43,080 --> 03:14:45,200
Speaker 1: can get back up on our feet. Were human beings,

3468
03:14:45,400 --> 03:14:48,199
Speaker 1: not to mention like half more than half the camp,

3469
03:14:48,440 --> 03:14:51,119
Speaker 1: you know, the majority of the camp. There are males

3470
03:14:51,160 --> 03:14:53,000
Speaker 1: that I live here, so please don't get me wrong,

3471
03:14:53,080 --> 03:14:55,960
Speaker 1: but this is the camp of majority women. You know

3472
03:14:56,000 --> 03:14:58,640
Speaker 1: what I mean? Who out here, who live out here?

3473
03:14:58,720 --> 03:15:01,000
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of us know we're homeless,

3474
03:15:01,040 --> 03:15:03,520
Speaker 1: but we're not. We're not bumms, you know what I mean. Like,

3475
03:15:03,600 --> 03:15:06,160
Speaker 1: we're not um We have regular lives like everyone else.

3476
03:15:06,240 --> 03:15:08,200
Speaker 1: We have family, we have friends, you know what. We're like.

3477
03:15:09,000 --> 03:15:10,680
Speaker 1: We and we take care of each other, you know

3478
03:15:10,720 --> 03:15:12,600
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Like, and a lot of us have

3479
03:15:12,720 --> 03:15:16,320
Speaker 1: been camping right here for the last for years, some

3480
03:15:16,480 --> 03:15:20,200
Speaker 1: of us years up against the county, and you know

3481
03:15:20,280 --> 03:15:23,760
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. But for every success, sweeps remain a

3482
03:15:23,840 --> 03:15:27,000
Speaker 1: daily constant United States, and many attempts to push back

3483
03:15:27,120 --> 03:15:30,120
Speaker 1: by houses folks and their supporters are met with extreme

3484
03:15:30,160 --> 03:15:33,280
Speaker 1: resistance from law enforcement. So I'm curious what you all think.

3485
03:15:33,720 --> 03:15:36,600
Speaker 1: How can communities continue to organize for change in the

3486
03:15:36,720 --> 03:15:39,160
Speaker 1: face of his brutality. Something that comes to mind is

3487
03:15:39,200 --> 03:15:41,440
Speaker 1: just kind of more of some things that I have

3488
03:15:41,480 --> 03:15:44,880
Speaker 1: already been happening basically, UM and I'm thinking of a

3489
03:15:44,959 --> 03:15:49,200
Speaker 1: capolic that you brought up. UM And the INCA was

3490
03:15:49,280 --> 03:15:53,000
Speaker 1: really interesting to me because UM it was that that's

3491
03:15:53,040 --> 03:15:57,880
Speaker 1: a neighborhood in l A. And it grew to maybe

3492
03:15:58,160 --> 03:16:01,600
Speaker 1: two to three hundred people living there. UM And as

3493
03:16:01,680 --> 03:16:03,320
Speaker 1: it went on, it kind of like a sense of

3494
03:16:03,440 --> 03:16:06,880
Speaker 1: community developed pretty strongly there with support from people in

3495
03:16:06,879 --> 03:16:09,880
Speaker 1: the neighborhood to UM and people had set up like

3496
03:16:10,040 --> 03:16:14,280
Speaker 1: a garden, a community kitchen. They were like meetings, even

3497
03:16:14,440 --> 03:16:17,600
Speaker 1: showers near the end. Like. Um, it was actually kind

3498
03:16:17,680 --> 03:16:21,040
Speaker 1: of thriving. I it's like doing well, and people are

3499
03:16:21,120 --> 03:16:24,760
Speaker 1: like pretty like uh politicized, are like aware of like

3500
03:16:24,920 --> 03:16:26,720
Speaker 1: what's going on and talking about it and sharing with

3501
03:16:26,760 --> 03:16:30,240
Speaker 1: each other. UM And yeah, people coming together to resist

3502
03:16:30,560 --> 03:16:34,000
Speaker 1: sweeps and like threats of sweeps of the park um

3503
03:16:34,640 --> 03:16:37,720
Speaker 1: and the response to it was one of the most

3504
03:16:37,800 --> 03:16:41,480
Speaker 1: like heavy handed, sort of disproportionate seeming things that I'd

3505
03:16:41,520 --> 03:16:45,120
Speaker 1: ever seen, where they had been threatening the city had

3506
03:16:45,120 --> 03:16:46,600
Speaker 1: been threatening that they were going to do a sweep,

3507
03:16:46,640 --> 03:16:48,080
Speaker 1: and they were saying they were going to get everyone

3508
03:16:48,120 --> 03:16:52,320
Speaker 1: into housing. It's like this humanitarian um offer of secure

3509
03:16:52,360 --> 03:16:55,440
Speaker 1: housing to people. UM. That they came with like four

3510
03:16:55,560 --> 03:16:58,480
Speaker 1: hundred cops and like all the rest of like l

3511
03:16:58,520 --> 03:17:00,440
Speaker 1: A p D S four forcing the hell of copters

3512
03:17:00,480 --> 03:17:04,120
Speaker 1: and just like everything. They blocked entrances into Echo Park

3513
03:17:04,240 --> 03:17:07,120
Speaker 1: to stop supporters coming from out of the neighborhood. UM

3514
03:17:07,400 --> 03:17:12,000
Speaker 1: and basically yeah, evicted people, fought with people resisting UM

3515
03:17:12,280 --> 03:17:15,320
Speaker 1: and then put a fence up very quickly like during

3516
03:17:15,400 --> 03:17:18,320
Speaker 1: this whole thing, UM, and close the park off. And

3517
03:17:18,480 --> 03:17:20,960
Speaker 1: that fence is still up, and that's like and then

3518
03:17:21,000 --> 03:17:22,240
Speaker 1: what is it now a year and a half or

3519
03:17:22,280 --> 03:17:25,320
Speaker 1: something new years that that fence has been up. And

3520
03:17:25,400 --> 03:17:27,920
Speaker 1: something I think is like interesting about this example is

3521
03:17:28,120 --> 03:17:30,040
Speaker 1: I really think that the reason that response was so

3522
03:17:30,160 --> 03:17:33,280
Speaker 1: heavy handed is because the very existence of it was

3523
03:17:33,480 --> 03:17:37,400
Speaker 1: disrupting this logic of like rent and landlord de terms

3524
03:17:37,440 --> 03:17:41,000
Speaker 1: of like people were reclaiming the comments basically reclaiming public space,

3525
03:17:41,480 --> 03:17:43,720
Speaker 1: using it to meet their needs, and this was incredibly

3526
03:17:43,800 --> 03:17:46,320
Speaker 1: threatening to the city and they needed to shut it

3527
03:17:46,400 --> 03:17:50,040
Speaker 1: down and sort of turn the park back into recreation

3528
03:17:50,120 --> 03:17:53,520
Speaker 1: for middle class people. Basically, UM. And I think you

3529
03:17:53,560 --> 03:17:56,440
Speaker 1: know what we've talked about already, Like, um, Tom, what

3530
03:17:56,520 --> 03:17:58,520
Speaker 1: you were talking about with like enclosure and stuff like

3531
03:17:58,560 --> 03:18:00,960
Speaker 1: I really see that these sweeps, this is such a

3532
03:18:01,080 --> 03:18:03,640
Speaker 1: just a continuation of this in echo puk um in

3533
03:18:03,680 --> 03:18:05,680
Speaker 1: a really big way. And what you were saying more

3534
03:18:05,720 --> 03:18:08,119
Speaker 1: about just like what happens when we challenge that logic

3535
03:18:08,280 --> 03:18:10,600
Speaker 1: being the most like threatening thing to them, you know,

3536
03:18:10,920 --> 03:18:13,000
Speaker 1: just like what happens if it was just like this

3537
03:18:13,120 --> 03:18:15,960
Speaker 1: homes camp survives and then another encampment, another encampment, and

3538
03:18:16,040 --> 03:18:19,199
Speaker 1: it basically disrupts everything we know about property and rents

3539
03:18:19,240 --> 03:18:23,480
Speaker 1: and everything anyway, So I think just more of that, Yeah,

3540
03:18:23,560 --> 03:18:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean I would, Yeah, I agree with you. So

3541
03:18:25,040 --> 03:18:26,920
Speaker 1: I think it's like more of what's happened Like currently

3542
03:18:26,959 --> 03:18:30,119
Speaker 1: New York there's still sweets happening, Like um DTAs Department

3543
03:18:30,200 --> 03:18:33,400
Speaker 1: of Homer Services puts up these like UM sweet notices UM.

3544
03:18:33,480 --> 03:18:35,160
Speaker 1: And the way it works is that when these two

3545
03:18:35,560 --> 03:18:37,879
Speaker 1: twops notices go up, like there's a group of people

3546
03:18:37,879 --> 03:18:39,480
Speaker 1: who let each other know that that sweet is about

3547
03:18:39,480 --> 03:18:41,680
Speaker 1: to happen. People show up to the people who are

3548
03:18:41,720 --> 03:18:43,880
Speaker 1: about to be swept. I hate that word swept. Oh

3549
03:18:43,920 --> 03:18:45,920
Speaker 1: my gosh, that's so disgusting. What can we use instead

3550
03:18:45,920 --> 03:18:48,680
Speaker 1: of swept um treated badly by evil air adoms? I

3551
03:18:48,680 --> 03:18:50,760
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe we could do that. Um but anyway,

3552
03:18:50,840 --> 03:18:53,240
Speaker 1: so like, um, so people will go and talk to

3553
03:18:53,280 --> 03:18:54,760
Speaker 1: the people who are in the encampment we're going to

3554
03:18:54,800 --> 03:18:56,320
Speaker 1: be swept and ask them like what type of support

3555
03:18:56,360 --> 03:18:58,040
Speaker 1: would you like, like do you want us to help

3556
03:18:58,120 --> 03:18:59,680
Speaker 1: you us move your stuff? Do you want us to

3557
03:18:59,680 --> 03:19:02,040
Speaker 1: stand you know when the cops and like so the

3558
03:19:02,120 --> 03:19:05,080
Speaker 1: sanitation department comes usually during these cleanups and like throws

3559
03:19:05,080 --> 03:19:08,520
Speaker 1: away people's things. And because you know, if you don't

3560
03:19:08,879 --> 03:19:12,320
Speaker 1: serve capitalism, your stuff you don't matter. So definitely your

3561
03:19:12,320 --> 03:19:15,000
Speaker 1: stuff doesn't matter. One thing that has been happening is

3562
03:19:15,040 --> 03:19:17,120
Speaker 1: that people have been showing up for people who are

3563
03:19:17,160 --> 03:19:19,880
Speaker 1: about to be have their things thrown out and either

3564
03:19:19,959 --> 03:19:22,440
Speaker 1: moving the things for them or supporting them or standing

3565
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:24,040
Speaker 1: in the way from in front of the police, or

3566
03:19:24,120 --> 03:19:26,280
Speaker 1: like documenting it. And I think that's like a huge

3567
03:19:26,320 --> 03:19:28,240
Speaker 1: way to just like show up right now if you can,

3568
03:19:28,600 --> 03:19:31,119
Speaker 1: you sickly block out time on your calendar at work,

3569
03:19:31,240 --> 03:19:33,320
Speaker 1: if you know something happening down the street like this

3570
03:19:33,480 --> 03:19:35,240
Speaker 1: is like something like you could do now. And I

3571
03:19:35,320 --> 03:19:37,440
Speaker 1: think that's really important, Like this is solidarity that we

3572
03:19:37,480 --> 03:19:40,039
Speaker 1: should show and which show up for our comrades because

3573
03:19:40,600 --> 03:19:42,720
Speaker 1: they are on the ground of fighting for us having

3574
03:19:42,760 --> 03:19:44,680
Speaker 1: housing as a human right. Then that's why we should

3575
03:19:44,680 --> 03:19:47,360
Speaker 1: show up for them and to support them. Another item

3576
03:19:47,400 --> 03:19:48,560
Speaker 1: that I wanted to bring up. I don't know if

3577
03:19:48,600 --> 03:19:51,960
Speaker 1: y'all heard about anarchy Rope which happened last year, where

3578
03:19:52,080 --> 03:19:55,640
Speaker 1: like s RG was, the Strategic Response Group showed up.

3579
03:19:55,720 --> 03:19:58,920
Speaker 1: This is a calendar terrorism group. Y'all showed up to

3580
03:20:00,120 --> 03:20:03,400
Speaker 1: get people out of an encampment in Tompkins Square which

3581
03:20:03,440 --> 03:20:05,360
Speaker 1: was deemed anarchy roy I think it was like five people.

3582
03:20:05,680 --> 03:20:09,440
Speaker 1: Five people brought an SAR or counter terrorism groups. It

3583
03:20:09,560 --> 03:20:12,800
Speaker 1: just goes to show you the extent to which like houses,

3584
03:20:12,879 --> 03:20:15,600
Speaker 1: people taking up public space is a threat to the

3585
03:20:15,720 --> 03:20:18,440
Speaker 1: idea of property as we know. It is a threat

3586
03:20:18,480 --> 03:20:21,480
Speaker 1: to capitalist and it's a threat to landlords like Eric Adams.

3587
03:20:21,640 --> 03:20:23,320
Speaker 1: Eric Adams is a landlord. I don't know if you

3588
03:20:23,360 --> 03:20:25,080
Speaker 1: all know that this the New York the New York

3589
03:20:25,080 --> 03:20:26,840
Speaker 1: City mayors, the landlord. If you need to know anything

3590
03:20:27,200 --> 03:20:30,480
Speaker 1: as to why they're sweeping homeless people. Landlords run everything,

3591
03:20:30,680 --> 03:20:33,320
Speaker 1: and they have rats like Eric Adams because he had

3592
03:20:33,440 --> 03:20:35,120
Speaker 1: racks and he was supposed to pay a fine and

3593
03:20:35,160 --> 03:20:37,040
Speaker 1: he didn't pay a fine because he's the landlord. I

3594
03:20:37,080 --> 03:20:38,800
Speaker 1: guess just going back to that, it's like, yeah, show

3595
03:20:38,879 --> 03:20:40,840
Speaker 1: up for people now, Like the need now is like

3596
03:20:40,879 --> 03:20:43,400
Speaker 1: onceeps are happening, is for people to show up in

3597
03:20:43,480 --> 03:20:45,560
Speaker 1: place with people. And the other part of it, I

3598
03:20:45,640 --> 03:20:47,680
Speaker 1: want to say this, and this is a wild idea,

3599
03:20:47,840 --> 03:20:49,520
Speaker 1: but I've been thinking about it for a while. What

3600
03:20:49,640 --> 03:20:52,200
Speaker 1: if we all stop paying rent? What if we all

3601
03:20:52,280 --> 03:20:54,400
Speaker 1: did what if we got together with all our friends

3602
03:20:54,480 --> 03:20:56,160
Speaker 1: and stop paying rent? And I know this is wild,

3603
03:20:56,440 --> 03:20:58,720
Speaker 1: and I know some people might be like, oh no, Marcella,

3604
03:20:58,720 --> 03:21:00,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna get a victim. But what if we aid

3605
03:21:00,200 --> 03:21:02,000
Speaker 1: rent and we all thought the cops and they're trying

3606
03:21:02,040 --> 03:21:03,640
Speaker 1: to pay us when when when when they're trying to

3607
03:21:03,720 --> 03:21:05,760
Speaker 1: evict all of us? So like that's another part of it,

3608
03:21:05,920 --> 03:21:08,120
Speaker 1: is like showing up to people's evictions, trying to come

3609
03:21:08,200 --> 03:21:10,039
Speaker 1: up together to come up with a long strategy because

3610
03:21:10,240 --> 03:21:12,400
Speaker 1: houses people right now are fighting for us to like

3611
03:21:12,520 --> 03:21:14,320
Speaker 1: have housing as a human right. We can meet them

3612
03:21:14,360 --> 03:21:15,840
Speaker 1: on the other end and s actually, we're not going

3613
03:21:15,920 --> 03:21:17,680
Speaker 1: to pay rent as long as you're doing this because

3614
03:21:17,760 --> 03:21:21,000
Speaker 1: we're that's like solidarity. When I'm thinking about how to

3615
03:21:22,000 --> 03:21:24,960
Speaker 1: resist displacement, you know what, I go back to is

3616
03:21:25,360 --> 03:21:28,520
Speaker 1: squatter movements that existed in Europe, right, like the social

3617
03:21:28,600 --> 03:21:31,360
Speaker 1: center movements in the seventies and eighties, um, but also

3618
03:21:31,400 --> 03:21:33,760
Speaker 1: squatting that happened in the rest Belt in the two thousand's, right,

3619
03:21:33,800 --> 03:21:36,960
Speaker 1: And like what was unique about those situations like others

3620
03:21:37,040 --> 03:21:40,640
Speaker 1: have have existed obviously, but what was unique about those

3621
03:21:40,640 --> 03:21:43,440
Speaker 1: situations is that squatting became about more than just space.

3622
03:21:43,920 --> 03:21:46,600
Speaker 1: It also became about autonomy and self defense. Right. So

3623
03:21:46,920 --> 03:21:49,720
Speaker 1: in those situations, what would happen is in these rest

3624
03:21:49,800 --> 03:21:52,320
Speaker 1: belt squads, people would like lock down a whole street

3625
03:21:52,440 --> 03:21:54,520
Speaker 1: and take over a house and then just that was

3626
03:21:54,640 --> 03:21:57,560
Speaker 1: just their space, you know, and the cops just couldn't

3627
03:21:57,600 --> 03:22:00,160
Speaker 1: get back there or didn't want to get back there, um.

3628
03:22:00,840 --> 03:22:03,480
Speaker 1: And some of those squads held out for years, like

3629
03:22:04,120 --> 03:22:06,120
Speaker 1: years and years and years um. And we see that

3630
03:22:06,200 --> 03:22:08,520
Speaker 1: in Europe too. And so what that does, though, is

3631
03:22:08,560 --> 03:22:12,800
Speaker 1: it it accomplishes something really important which I think we

3632
03:22:13,000 --> 03:22:16,560
Speaker 1: have to sort of shift in our discussions of this question,

3633
03:22:17,000 --> 03:22:20,400
Speaker 1: which is that the question isn't just about housing. The

3634
03:22:20,520 --> 03:22:25,160
Speaker 1: questions about space, right and very specifically how we understand space.

3635
03:22:25,400 --> 03:22:28,720
Speaker 1: So currently we talked about a neighborhood or when city

3636
03:22:29,080 --> 03:22:31,800
Speaker 1: politicians talked about a neighborhood, they don't mean what I

3637
03:22:31,840 --> 03:22:33,440
Speaker 1: think a lot of us mean. Like a lot of

3638
03:22:33,600 --> 03:22:36,440
Speaker 1: us we talked about our neighborhoods mean like our neighbors, right,

3639
03:22:36,800 --> 03:22:38,959
Speaker 1: the people that live around the corner, the old lady

3640
03:22:39,040 --> 03:22:40,760
Speaker 1: up the street, the feeds of cats, like whatever it

3641
03:22:40,800 --> 03:22:43,359
Speaker 1: happens to be, you know, like you have a community

3642
03:22:43,440 --> 03:22:45,160
Speaker 1: that you live in, at least where I live. When

3643
03:22:45,520 --> 03:22:48,440
Speaker 1: city politicians talk about a neighborhood, what they mean is

3644
03:22:48,480 --> 03:22:54,000
Speaker 1: real estate. They mean this fragmented space of commodified housing

3645
03:22:54,320 --> 03:22:58,360
Speaker 1: where individual houses can just be slotted in and slatted out.

3646
03:22:58,480 --> 03:23:00,840
Speaker 1: New residents could just be slatted and slatted out, and

3647
03:23:01,280 --> 03:23:04,560
Speaker 1: the space becomes reduced down to its physical form, right,

3648
03:23:05,240 --> 03:23:08,360
Speaker 1: and within all capitalists understanding some space, that is what happens.

3649
03:23:08,400 --> 03:23:12,320
Speaker 1: Space gets reduced down to the commodification of that space, right.

3650
03:23:12,480 --> 03:23:16,279
Speaker 1: And so we're talking about that inscription into our spaces.

3651
03:23:16,320 --> 03:23:18,960
Speaker 1: You know, I'm saying earlier that doesn't occur without the

3652
03:23:19,000 --> 03:23:23,080
Speaker 1: ability to get arrested for trustpassing. And so this becomes

3653
03:23:23,280 --> 03:23:25,560
Speaker 1: a fight against the police as much as it's a

3654
03:23:25,640 --> 03:23:28,080
Speaker 1: fight against housing, because at the end of the day,

3655
03:23:28,680 --> 03:23:32,720
Speaker 1: the enforcements of that structuring of space comes through the

3656
03:23:32,800 --> 03:23:35,640
Speaker 1: projection of police force into that space, right, whether that's

3657
03:23:36,080 --> 03:23:39,120
Speaker 1: passive things like surveillance, with those active things like sending

3658
03:23:39,160 --> 03:23:41,640
Speaker 1: a counter terrorism team to evict five people from a

3659
03:23:41,760 --> 03:23:44,600
Speaker 1: park in Manhattan. And so as we're kind of like

3660
03:23:44,879 --> 03:23:49,760
Speaker 1: looking through this, we can take some interesting sort of examples.

3661
03:23:49,840 --> 03:23:52,720
Speaker 1: I mean, the Paris Commune had a whole discourse that

3662
03:23:52,879 --> 03:23:54,959
Speaker 1: talked just about how they were going to rebuild the city,

3663
03:23:55,640 --> 03:23:58,520
Speaker 1: Like what is the city going to look like without property?

3664
03:23:58,959 --> 03:24:00,960
Speaker 1: How are we going to restart actual our uses space?

3665
03:24:01,160 --> 03:24:04,920
Speaker 1: Who gets to decide how to use these big public spaces? Right?

3666
03:24:05,560 --> 03:24:07,600
Speaker 1: These were the big discussions that were happening. The Situations

3667
03:24:07,640 --> 03:24:11,440
Speaker 1: International had a whole discourse on building conceptual cities and

3668
03:24:11,520 --> 03:24:14,039
Speaker 1: avant garde cities, and you know, graffiti was a big

3669
03:24:14,080 --> 03:24:16,200
Speaker 1: part of that because what is graffiti. Graffiti is the

3670
03:24:16,280 --> 03:24:20,080
Speaker 1: marking of people's presence in space. Why do cities cracked

3671
03:24:20,080 --> 03:24:22,400
Speaker 1: down on graffiti so hard every single time? So it

3672
03:24:22,480 --> 03:24:24,480
Speaker 1: puts a tag up, that's a gap in police coverage

3673
03:24:24,560 --> 03:24:28,240
Speaker 1: is being marked literally every single time. Right, And so

3674
03:24:28,520 --> 03:24:31,360
Speaker 1: when we're talking about these questions, we have to push

3675
03:24:31,480 --> 03:24:35,160
Speaker 1: this into a question of capitalism in general. But that

3676
03:24:35,280 --> 03:24:37,600
Speaker 1: makes it a question of the state. We can't talk

3677
03:24:37,640 --> 03:24:39,920
Speaker 1: about capitalism and isolation from that, and so we have

3678
03:24:40,040 --> 03:24:43,880
Speaker 1: to really talk about how our spaces are fragmented and

3679
03:24:44,000 --> 03:24:47,440
Speaker 1: the ways that things like even encampments or squats or

3680
03:24:47,520 --> 03:24:50,400
Speaker 1: things like this that are defended that are able to

3681
03:24:50,480 --> 03:24:53,600
Speaker 1: be sort of preserved, isn't the right word, are able

3682
03:24:53,640 --> 03:24:56,720
Speaker 1: to maintain their autonomy. Those becomes sort of the models

3683
03:24:56,760 --> 03:24:59,119
Speaker 1: of different ways to live in some ways, right, these

3684
03:24:59,200 --> 03:25:02,040
Speaker 1: become the places where people are experimenting with different types

3685
03:25:02,120 --> 03:25:05,600
Speaker 1: of living, whether it's my choice or not. But these

3686
03:25:05,640 --> 03:25:09,600
Speaker 1: are the spaces that get eliminated because of that specific dynamic,

3687
03:25:09,920 --> 03:25:14,560
Speaker 1: right that they are fundamentally violating the entire concept of

3688
03:25:14,640 --> 03:25:17,320
Speaker 1: property in their very exist and that's why we see

3689
03:25:17,320 --> 03:25:19,480
Speaker 1: the crackdowns happening the way that they are. Democrats are

3690
03:25:19,600 --> 03:25:22,760
Speaker 1: just as you know, complicit in that as Republicans are.

3691
03:25:22,840 --> 03:25:28,199
Speaker 1: It's it's functionally no difference, especially after the George Floyd uprising,

3692
03:25:28,200 --> 03:25:30,279
Speaker 1: were you really see in a lot of democratic cities

3693
03:25:30,360 --> 03:25:32,600
Speaker 1: them hiring a lot more cops, giving them a lot

3694
03:25:32,680 --> 03:25:34,720
Speaker 1: more guns, like doing the same stuff that that happened

3695
03:25:34,720 --> 03:25:37,720
Speaker 1: in more conservative cities. Right, The gap is almost non existent.

3696
03:25:37,920 --> 03:25:40,040
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for us. Once again. This

3697
03:25:40,160 --> 03:25:42,560
Speaker 1: has been the It's Going Down cruise squatting the offices

3698
03:25:42,600 --> 03:25:45,240
Speaker 1: of It Could Happen Here. Thanks again for listening and

3699
03:25:45,360 --> 03:25:50,600
Speaker 1: we will see you soon. Hey, We'll be back Monday

3700
03:25:50,720 --> 03:25:53,640
Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat

3701
03:25:53,680 --> 03:25:56,040
Speaker 1: death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a

3702
03:25:56,080 --> 03:25:58,959
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

3703
03:25:59,000 --> 03:26:01,840
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visitor website cool zone media dot com, or

3704
03:26:01,920 --> 03:26:04,400
Speaker 1: check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3705
03:26:04,520 --> 03:26:07,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

3706
03:26:07,360 --> 03:26:09,920
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone

3707
03:26:09,959 --> 03:26:12,680
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.