Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number sixteen of The Hunting Collective.
Speaker 1: I've been O'Brien today we are joined by Adam Jankie.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's Yankee J and K. You never
Speaker 1: know how guys pronounced their last name. Really anyway, Adam
Speaker 1: is a badass. He's the editor of The Journal and
Speaker 1: Mountain Hunting and he is also the host of the
Speaker 1: Beyond to Kill podcast on that platform, and he's doing
Speaker 1: a lot of different things in the media world today.
Speaker 1: Adam is a relative newcomer to the hunting space in
Speaker 1: terms of media and quit his his nine to five
Speaker 1: to jump into this world, and and his brand and
Speaker 1: what he represents has done great job in a short
Speaker 1: period of time and represented hunting, represented mountain hunting, and
Speaker 1: get people excited about the brand that they've created. So moreover,
Speaker 1: Adam is our resident Canadian, as we'll call him. He's
Speaker 1: from British Columbia, and he's got a lot to say
Speaker 1: about the Grizzly Bear Band and a lot to say
Speaker 1: about hunting politics up north, and really just is a
Speaker 1: great guy to talk to. He's direct, he's frank who
Speaker 1: really understands how to work through a conversation and keep
Speaker 1: it on pointing, on tone, and I really appreciate talking
Speaker 1: to him, and I like the guy. I think he's
Speaker 1: got a refreshing take on everything and everything seems measured
Speaker 1: appropriately so and he has a lot of awesome stuff
Speaker 1: to say. So that's the episode number sixteen of The
Speaker 1: Hunting Collective Coming at You with Adam Jenking. All right, Adam,
Speaker 1: how's it going, man, I'm great, Ben. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you having me on. No problem, no problem, it's a
Speaker 1: pleasure to um. I'm trying to think through if you're
Speaker 1: the first Canadian ever to join the Hunting Collective, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think well, not Shane Mahoney beat you.
Speaker 1: Yeah he did. Although if I if I only play
Speaker 1: second fiddle of Shane Mahoney in and you know, over
Speaker 1: the course of my life, I'm I think I'm doing
Speaker 1: all right. Yeah, if you're chasing Shane Mahoney and you
Speaker 1: and you're coming in second, you're doing all right. You're
Speaker 1: gonna be You gotta get a new accent, maybe start
Speaker 1: dressing a little different, but you'll be fine. Yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: think that silver medal any day. And frankly, if if
Speaker 1: I if I at his um at his age, and
Speaker 1: I don't mean that in a disrespect respectful manner, but
Speaker 1: if I'm sporting the hair and beard that he is
Speaker 1: by and by that point in my life, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: definitely in good company. Oh flowing a flowing main silver
Speaker 1: main from our boys. Shane respect him a lot too.
Speaker 1: And and UM, it's a good starting point to start
Speaker 1: with with Shane and what he does because UM conservation
Speaker 1: is something that's been on my mind a lot lately,
Speaker 1: just just because I was going back through and listen
Speaker 1: it's the prior podcast and trying just to glean what
Speaker 1: I had learned from from conservation and what I learned
Speaker 1: from the people we've interviewed. And UM, I I find
Speaker 1: that the British Columbia Grizzly Bear hunting band came up
Speaker 1: very frequently as as kind of the north star of
Speaker 1: what what we don't want to occur in the US
Speaker 1: and elsewhere when it comes to UM hunting bands or
Speaker 1: or hunting bands just based on what we'd call trophy hunting.
Speaker 1: So do you have you know, being uh, our resident Canadian,
Speaker 1: you have opinions and experience in that field. I know
Speaker 1: that you do. Yeah, man, if you know it's it's
Speaker 1: it's finally become one of those things that UM, I'm
Speaker 1: probably a little sick of talking about. And and some
Speaker 1: of the background on that bend is as much as
Speaker 1: I hate to put it this way, UM, I wrote
Speaker 1: a piece UM on our on the Drill Amountain Hunting platform,
Speaker 1: our site or digital magazine to depending on how you
Speaker 1: want to reference it, oh, probably three years ago, UM
Speaker 1: outlining the fact that we were, um, we were at
Speaker 1: significant risk UM as it related to the Grizzly grizzly
Speaker 1: bear hunt and losing the grizzly bear hunt because of UM.
Speaker 1: The way that hunt is UM, well, I don't even
Speaker 1: know how to put it. But the way it's it's
Speaker 1: it's message to in particular the non hunting public. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think you and I would probably agree that we'll
Speaker 1: probably never get um, you know, the anti hunters to
Speaker 1: see eye to eye with us. And that's not you know,
Speaker 1: meant to sound disrespect disrespectful over the anti hunting community,
Speaker 1: but you know, they have their beliefs and we have ours, UM.
Speaker 1: But that that huge swath under the bell curve of
Speaker 1: the non hunting public is what we're what we're kind
Speaker 1: of fighting for right and and those that were uh
Speaker 1: and still are very much opposed to the grizzly bear hunt.
Speaker 1: Um uh, we're we're mounting a very concerted and sophisticated
Speaker 1: effort to steer public opinion in a way that um,
Speaker 1: at least in part um led to this decision of
Speaker 1: of an outright ban on all grizzy bear hunting in BC. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: and that's I mean, it just becomes the first and
Speaker 1: most not first, but the most prominent example um of
Speaker 1: legislation changing based on public opinion in this way, and then,
Speaker 1: as you said, a a organized effort to push that
Speaker 1: legislation um and change those things based on you know,
Speaker 1: the term trophy hunting and and you know, just the
Speaker 1: particular motivation of hunting that one species in that in
Speaker 1: that singular place. So, um, it just seems to me
Speaker 1: from Vancouver over to Quesnel and up into the further
Speaker 1: reaches of British Columbia that that there just is uh,
Speaker 1: one set of opinions in the urban and suburban areas
Speaker 1: and another set of the opinions in the rural areas,
Speaker 1: and that that really does compared nicely to a lot
Speaker 1: of the conversation we're having in the States, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't compare nicely, but it is parallel. So is that
Speaker 1: is that something that you've you obviously identified early on
Speaker 1: and you continue to see as a problem going forward
Speaker 1: for British Columbia. Yeah. And I would like to clarify
Speaker 1: when I say, you know, I wrote about this, you
Speaker 1: know whatever, it was too three years ago. I don't
Speaker 1: want to you know, try to sound like some sort
Speaker 1: of a sage. It was just um. At the time,
Speaker 1: I was living in Vancouver and I was interacting with
Speaker 1: a lot of people from all walks of life and um,
Speaker 1: and you know, if I've hunted for forever, um, and
Speaker 1: so you know, these sort of things would come up
Speaker 1: and I would see, you know, how it was covered
Speaker 1: in in in the in the main like newspapers, traditional
Speaker 1: media wise, how it even got covered on you know,
Speaker 1: local or regional TV news. Um. And so I mean
Speaker 1: there are many, many, many people in BC who have
Speaker 1: been involved in this debate and and you know, let's
Speaker 1: call it fight for decades, right, and this has been
Speaker 1: a hot topic in BC for a very very long time.
Speaker 1: I think say, um, Um, Shane, excuse me, um even
Speaker 1: alluded to the fact that it was you know, not
Speaker 1: a new discussion. It just came to a head, UM,
Speaker 1: you know, just late last year. And there's no question
Speaker 1: that UM the decision that was made. And there's there's
Speaker 1: a couple of things that should be clarified there right
Speaker 1: because I know, UM a lot of people when I
Speaker 1: when I when it happened, I heard a lot of
Speaker 1: other podcasters or or people speak to speak to this
Speaker 1: issue and say that, UM, you know, nent of BC,
Speaker 1: UM of the populace of BC was it was against
Speaker 1: this so called trophy on. This gisby trophy on. And
Speaker 1: if you actually dig into some of the polls and
Speaker 1: some of the um UM the some of the methods
Speaker 1: that were used to to seek out public opinion and
Speaker 1: professional and UM you know, to to an extent impartial opinion,
Speaker 1: the numbers don't really add up. So so what did
Speaker 1: happen was a there was a a two pronged UM
Speaker 1: A two pronged effort between the variety of NGOs UM
Speaker 1: that our out notte UM anti hunting organizations in particular
Speaker 1: when it comes to to large carnivores um and then
Speaker 1: the new UM party that came into government to UM
Speaker 1: to just simply push this decision through the bulk of
Speaker 1: their UM support base will be undoubtedly in urban environments
Speaker 1: in particular Vancouver and Victoria. UM, and they'll have supporters
Speaker 1: you know, across the province. But if you go outside
Speaker 1: of the what's called the Lower Mainland, which is effectively
Speaker 1: the Greater Vancouver area or Victoria, you are going to
Speaker 1: get very very different opinions from people on UM. You know,
Speaker 1: the viability, sustainability and and support of of the Grizzly hunt.
Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, Ben UM,
Speaker 1: you know, the hunting community here in BC was, without question,
Speaker 1: cap with your pants down right. We had no UM
Speaker 1: organizing body too to you know, push back against some
Speaker 1: of these these very sophisticated pr and social media campaigns. UM.
Speaker 1: There was an immense amount of infighting because of the
Speaker 1: whole resident versus nonresident issue that is that is ever
Speaker 1: present in BC. And and just to add clarity to that,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that live and hunting BC
Speaker 1: that could care less how a legislative change impacts you know,
Speaker 1: a as they would call them, foreign trophy hunter without
Speaker 1: you know, realizing that it's a you know, these sort
Speaker 1: of things impact all of us. And so I mean
Speaker 1: we were we were disorganized, we were unsophisticated, and how
Speaker 1: we dealt with this issue UM and UM and the
Speaker 1: the decision came down right. And what's interesting as well
Speaker 1: about the Grizzly bear band is, you know, this is
Speaker 1: one of the most UM regulated and studied hunts on
Speaker 1: the planet, without a shadow of a doubt, UM. And
Speaker 1: so we had, you know, no shortage of statistics and
Speaker 1: data to support the fact that it was absolutely positively sustainable. UM.
Speaker 1: There was no negative impact on the population. If anything.
Speaker 1: Many would argue that the population had improved UM over
Speaker 1: the course of UM of hunting being allowed, because it
Speaker 1: had been banned previously, going years back, and don't remember
Speaker 1: exactly what year, UM. But we had no shortage of
Speaker 1: data and this you know, I've talked about this before,
Speaker 1: right as um As hunters were were quick to speak
Speaker 1: a certain language. Let's let's loosely call that the conservation language,
Speaker 1: which is factual, and it's good stuff and it's great,
Speaker 1: you know, it's great information and it's important information. But
Speaker 1: it just didn't fall on ears that we're listening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think you I think both sides, particularly
Speaker 1: in this side, that the hunting side, which is on
Speaker 1: the defensive, is unable to see the nuance in the opposition.
Speaker 1: And there is this, there is this easy and and
Speaker 1: and you and I have talked about this, this lazy
Speaker 1: falling back on conservation and that term and falling back
Speaker 1: on um everything that goes with that. And I think
Speaker 1: when an argument like this comes up and the opposition
Speaker 1: is organized and looking for some nuanced thinking, that doesn't
Speaker 1: just pair it out the party lines, the hunting party
Speaker 1: lines like, hey, conservation, is this carrying capacity? Population control?
Speaker 1: Even the specifics of the nature of grizzly bears and
Speaker 1: and how they interact with other bears and how they
Speaker 1: interact with humans and why population control is important. I
Speaker 1: think all those things, while important ideas, aren't necessarily new ideas. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I think when you face a new and more
Speaker 1: organized opposition, which you would probably agree that this is
Speaker 1: and UH wasn't, is that you have to then come
Speaker 1: up with better ways to get your points across, and
Speaker 1: more nuanced ways, in this case get your point across
Speaker 1: that I think speak a little bit more to the
Speaker 1: to your audience, which in this case is Vancouver and
Speaker 1: Victorian and the Lower Mainland, as you mentioned, so right, UM,
Speaker 1: and I guess I don't want to belabor this obviously
Speaker 1: because everybody kind of knows the situation. But is there
Speaker 1: something in the future now that you know the hunting
Speaker 1: community and BC has been called other pants down, something
Speaker 1: in the future that you see as a solution or
Speaker 1: something that has been enacted or ideated at this point
Speaker 1: that you you think might prevent this in the future
Speaker 1: or be able to reverse decision like this. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean there there are many to believe that um, this
Speaker 1: this new government that came into power, this new party,
Speaker 1: I should say, they came into power. UM won't UM
Speaker 1: won't get reelected, so you know whatever, it will be
Speaker 1: three and a half years. Now, Let's say down the
Speaker 1: road that if the UM the government that was in
Speaker 1: power prior to this, this this new party and and
Speaker 1: this decision amongst many others that are a little bit um,
Speaker 1: if you let's say the one UM the previous from
Speaker 1: our party comes into power, that it will get reversed. Now,
Speaker 1: I've also spoken with a ton of people that say,
Speaker 1: you know, hold on, it's um. It's it's all well
Speaker 1: and good to think that, and to think that we'll
Speaker 1: get support from from that party. But it's a pretty
Speaker 1: hard PR pill to swallow, to say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: there was all this stuff about these beautiful animals that
Speaker 1: you know, everyone was supposedly against lopping the heads off of.
Speaker 1: Well we're gonna let people lop heads off them again, right,
Speaker 1: And I'm putting those in in very you know, extreme terms,
Speaker 1: but those are the sort of that's the sort of
Speaker 1: stuff that was put out there, right and in these
Speaker 1: in these PR campaigns from the NGOs, the anti hunt
Speaker 1: NGOs was they used a lot of very graphic, very
Speaker 1: false and in most cases in fact, but some very
Speaker 1: graphic and um uh, let's say emotional um type of
Speaker 1: examples of what it meant to be a grizzly bear
Speaker 1: or so called trophy hunter. Um So it's a you know,
Speaker 1: who knows, right, I mean that that's a that's a
Speaker 1: tough hill to climb if you're a new party coming
Speaker 1: into power and are supposed to sport the hunting and
Speaker 1: fishing community and particular the hunting community and turn this
Speaker 1: decision around. Um So, I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 1: where that will where that will land as far as
Speaker 1: the the know, the specific hunting community getting more organized,
Speaker 1: things are being put into action. But um, this has
Speaker 1: absolutely exposed um just how um factional the hunting community
Speaker 1: is in BC. UM. As I, as I mentioned just
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. You have the resident hunters, you
Speaker 1: have the guide outfitters. You have people that profess to
Speaker 1: be meat hunters. You have people that that you know
Speaker 1: loved grizzly bear hunt. You have people that are resident
Speaker 1: hunters that are also guide outfitters, UM. And you have
Speaker 1: some of the organizing bodies that are involved here that
Speaker 1: should have you know, kind of had our backs, that
Speaker 1: are that are playing politics in you know, behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: So I I really don't know. I mean that was
Speaker 1: one of the first things I did after the initial decision,
Speaker 1: which is actually just a ban on keeping um hide
Speaker 1: head and claws. You can still hunt grizzy bears, you
Speaker 1: just had to take the meat to leave everything else behind.
Speaker 1: So even when that went down, one of the first
Speaker 1: things I did was I started calling people that I
Speaker 1: know we're involved in certain organizations and said, you know,
Speaker 1: what's what's the plan here, like what's going on? And
Speaker 1: everyone just sort of, you know, um figurative sense just
Speaker 1: looked around the room to see who else had the
Speaker 1: answer right, and and and that was then and things
Speaker 1: that have been put into motion. Um, but it won't happen,
Speaker 1: happen quickly, so um so time will time will tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's interesting to me, and there's a bunch of things
Speaker 1: wrapped up in that to me that are you know,
Speaker 1: important overall. But it seems in general that we've always
Speaker 1: had this. When you say anti hunting it it strikes
Speaker 1: me as one side, the anti hunting side, is always
Speaker 1: argue on emotion, right and and general sensationalism. Then you
Speaker 1: have the hunting side in this case, or you know,
Speaker 1: really sometimes in America, the pro inside who's always trying
Speaker 1: to argue pragmatism and not always factual information, but at
Speaker 1: least the air of factual information. And those two sides
Speaker 1: continue to go head to head, and that that that
Speaker 1: emotional side can't reason with pragmatism and facts and common sense,
Speaker 1: and the pragmatism side can't see the emotional connection to
Speaker 1: the animal. And Steve Ronella puts it very very bluntly,
Speaker 1: that an animal rights activist is good at taking care
Speaker 1: of one animal, and that the hunter is good at
Speaker 1: taking care of the entire population, and so I've spoken
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. I don't know. This is
Speaker 1: one I'd love to get your opinion on. I spoken
Speaker 1: to a lot of people about how do we fix
Speaker 1: that chasm, because it is a large chasm between somebody
Speaker 1: who cares emotionally about that single being UM or somebody
Speaker 1: who cares about Grizzly bears as a population and in
Speaker 1: more of a figurative sense. Do you have any any
Speaker 1: thoughts on that Having gone through this issue and having
Speaker 1: being you know, kind of not in the middle, but
Speaker 1: a large part of an issue like this where those
Speaker 1: two ideas are at the four Yeah, I mean, so
Speaker 1: there's UM. I think there's there's two at least potential
Speaker 1: solutions here. One that UM I yea. In the discussions
Speaker 1: I was having after both you know, let's call them UM,
Speaker 1: segments of the whole Grizzly fiasco occurred UM that UM.
Speaker 1: Just a lot of us came to agree on right.
Speaker 1: A lot of people that were involved either in some
Speaker 1: of the politics or people they're involved with organizations that
Speaker 1: are trying to you know, sort of get the shift,
Speaker 1: get the ship excuse me, on on on course. UM.
Speaker 1: And and so there's there's that solution, and there's one
Speaker 1: that's come to me a little bit more recently. And
Speaker 1: so they are they're effectively external and internal UM solutions.
Speaker 1: I think on the external side, you know, we as hunters,
Speaker 1: as as you and I have said, UM, are very
Speaker 1: quick to you know, pull out, pull the you know,
Speaker 1: sort of conservation gun out of the holster, right. UM,
Speaker 1: use all the data and the science that we either
Speaker 1: find for ourselves or get spoon fed by all the
Speaker 1: organizations out there that that are part of the hunting
Speaker 1: community and are doing great work. I don't want to
Speaker 1: sound like I'm diminishing the work some of these legacy
Speaker 1: or organizations have done. UM. But we you know, that
Speaker 1: was kind of the only AMMO we had, right And
Speaker 1: and then when we get an emotional UM push back
Speaker 1: from in particularly anti hunters, and then then that trickles
Speaker 1: into the non hunting public, UM, we were very quick
Speaker 1: to say, well, they're just being irrational and emotional, right
Speaker 1: And and at the end of the day, UM, most
Speaker 1: hunters love to hunt, and they do so for more
Speaker 1: emotional reasons than they do rational reasons. And if you're
Speaker 1: telling other people otherwise, you're telling yourself otherwise. I would
Speaker 1: challenge that, um, um, that notion. Right. It's you know,
Speaker 1: I hunt because I love to hunt and everything that
Speaker 1: comes with it. And are there good reasons to do it? Yes?
Speaker 1: Are there's scientific reasons to do it? Yes? Are their
Speaker 1: management reasons to do it? Yes? Are there familial reasons
Speaker 1: to do it? I eat, put you know, clean protein
Speaker 1: in my freezer on my table. Sure. Um, But I
Speaker 1: just love to hunt, I really do. And and so
Speaker 1: we weren't acknowledging our own emotional connection to these issues
Speaker 1: and and then using that, um, you know, those emotions
Speaker 1: to communicate and connect with people on a real personal level. Right.
Speaker 1: We can't sit here and say we need to be
Speaker 1: rational when you know, it's not human nature to be
Speaker 1: rational all the time, if not most of the time. Right.
Speaker 1: And so I do think in terms of how we
Speaker 1: communicate with in particularly the non hunting public, Um, we
Speaker 1: just need to recognize that, you know, how we were
Speaker 1: communicating with them, how we were and are to a
Speaker 1: certain extent, um is falling on deaf years, you know,
Speaker 1: Shane says himself, and I'll probably butcher it. But if
Speaker 1: we you know, speak speak, what is it if if
Speaker 1: for too long we speak only to ourselves, will will
Speaker 1: be the only ones left listening, right and and I
Speaker 1: think that's that's a big part of what happened here.
Speaker 1: So externally, I think we need to, um, you know,
Speaker 1: engage with the non hunting public. And I want to
Speaker 1: be clear when I say that that that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we need to be conciliatory or you know, walk around
Speaker 1: with our hands out saying please, sir, can I have
Speaker 1: some more? We need to you know, stand stand up
Speaker 1: for what we believe in, but make real connections with people,
Speaker 1: whether that's over food or in um, you know, town
Speaker 1: hall settings or dinner parties or whatever the case may be. Like,
Speaker 1: just engage with people, um, and and share some of
Speaker 1: the emotional reasons you do it, right, um, and don't
Speaker 1: just spew out um. But what I'm sure comes across
Speaker 1: as sort of um, defensive justifications for for what we do. UM.
Speaker 1: So that would be one and then two is on
Speaker 1: the internal side of things. And this is linked to
Speaker 1: that that thing I sent you earlier today is you know,
Speaker 1: if we continue to segregate our own community by by
Speaker 1: you know, labels like I hunt for meat. Well, sorry,
Speaker 1: let me back that up. If we continue to segregate
Speaker 1: our community based on labels UM that we um you know,
Speaker 1: identify with in terms of our reasons for hunting. I
Speaker 1: hunt for meat, I hunt for trophy, hunt for it inches,
Speaker 1: I hunt for maturity, I hunt for management, hunt for conservation.
Speaker 1: I think we are are going to find ourselves in
Speaker 1: a bad spot because we are doing the work of
Speaker 1: the anti hunters by creating those divisions within our own community.
Speaker 1: I'm a bow hunter, therefore I must not like the
Speaker 1: long range people. UM, A trad bow hunter. Therefore, I
Speaker 1: think anyone that takes a sixty yard shot with a
Speaker 1: compound is um, you know, is the Antichrist, right, and
Speaker 1: so you know those sort of things. I think we
Speaker 1: need to sort out our own, our own house in
Speaker 1: order as much as we need to think as as
Speaker 1: hard about how to communicate with the non hunting public. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I can agree with that wholeheartedly. And I think it's
Speaker 1: just it's it's we're unlucky in this situation. Like we
Speaker 1: not unlucky, but we have fallen into a passion something
Speaker 1: we care a lot about that is complex and is regional,
Speaker 1: and and it it doesn't always look the same. Hunting
Speaker 1: doesn't look the same on the East Coast as it
Speaker 1: does in the East coast of the States, as it
Speaker 1: does in northern British Columbia. It just doesn't look and
Speaker 1: feel the same. It isn't it isn't. Uh, the picture
Speaker 1: isn't painted with the same strokes. And so we have
Speaker 1: all these different perspectives that we're trying to apply to
Speaker 1: one ethic, which which is seems the right way and
Speaker 1: in my mind it kind of is the right things do.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately we we've had this very complex and in
Speaker 1: and ever changing idea of what hunting is in the
Speaker 1: modern times. Um, so we're stuck arguing those points, arguing
Speaker 1: the finer points of of what it is instead of
Speaker 1: really trying to, like you, like you said, connect with
Speaker 1: people that don't do it, Like, how do I connect
Speaker 1: with you? What is the one thing that we share
Speaker 1: in common, which is which is most often caring about
Speaker 1: the animal and valuing the animal's life, which is is
Speaker 1: usually the one commonality in this in this situation, and
Speaker 1: trying to bridge a gap based on that, as opposed
Speaker 1: to trying to to to make definitions out of something
Speaker 1: that seemingly, you know, it may not be able to
Speaker 1: be defined. Um. Just because it is so different and
Speaker 1: so nuanced and and and changing all the time. Um
Speaker 1: and so yeah, we're stuck with this complex message. This
Speaker 1: is very complex argument we have amongst ourselves even and
Speaker 1: the other side is is bringing forth something that isn't
Speaker 1: that complex. It's basically, we love animals, and all animals
Speaker 1: are sentient beings, and all animals deserve life. You don't
Speaker 1: have the option to take it from them and then
Speaker 1: brag about it, um for for for anything. And so
Speaker 1: I think at the end of the day, we just
Speaker 1: need to first first identify the complexity and and what
Speaker 1: we're trying to trying to do in the modern world,
Speaker 1: and the simplicity of of the counter argument. And that's
Speaker 1: a lot of times, um how that kind of argument
Speaker 1: has strength because it's sensational and it's simple, it's easy
Speaker 1: for people to understand. Um And And so I think
Speaker 1: our messaging just needs to be consistent and and we
Speaker 1: need to find a way to trump at that messaging
Speaker 1: and get it out as as much as we can.
Speaker 1: So I maybe that's a depressing kind of opinion to
Speaker 1: have on the damn thing, but it but it's true.
Speaker 1: I mean, we just have we have put by being
Speaker 1: hunters in the modern society, we kind of put ourselves
Speaker 1: behind the eight ball because it's a complex thing in
Speaker 1: a world that doesn't really enjoy complexity. They want everything
Speaker 1: to be pretty simple. So I think BC is just
Speaker 1: one of those places that was kind of the front
Speaker 1: lines of this because of that grizzly bear being a
Speaker 1: charismatic megafauna that we love to uh personify and we
Speaker 1: love to put on a pedestal for some for some reason.
Speaker 1: But enough of that, enough of that business. We can
Speaker 1: talk about that all day. Um, you're in the media world.
Speaker 1: You're the editor the journal Mountain Hunting, which to me
Speaker 1: is an interesting take on print publications. Um, and I
Speaker 1: at being a former print editor myself. I really enjoy
Speaker 1: the quality of the paper and the paper and the
Speaker 1: white space and all the real geeky editor type things
Speaker 1: that I I notice when I look at the book.
Speaker 1: But I also really enjoy and I think why it's
Speaker 1: your voice is important is because the way the book
Speaker 1: has written and presented is very much with an eye
Speaker 1: towards how hunters are seen and how how you can
Speaker 1: shape that image and and bring that image into a
Speaker 1: better light. So that's I always appreciate those efforts, and
Speaker 1: I appreciate that book. But but what's it like being
Speaker 1: an editor at work in every single day to put
Speaker 1: together a product that's uh, has those goals and it
Speaker 1: can be judged for its creativity. Oh yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I mean by no means what I ever want to sound, um,
Speaker 1: well like like I've got a hard go here. But
Speaker 1: I mean I I'm I'm working in the hunting business,
Speaker 1: which you know for a lot of people, UM that
Speaker 1: that's a dream, right, and so you know, for the
Speaker 1: most part, it's a ton of fun. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's a lot of um nuances as as you pointed
Speaker 1: out to this world and the you know, our our
Speaker 1: whole mantra from from inception. So the journal Mountain Hunting
Speaker 1: UM started as a as a digital magazine, as we
Speaker 1: like to think of it. I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: website of course, but structured very much as a digital magazine.
Speaker 1: What you were just referencing is our print edition, which
Speaker 1: we released our first last year. We have a new
Speaker 1: one coming out very soon, if not by the time
Speaker 1: this goes to air. And you know, in both those
Speaker 1: channels let's call them, it was um we were always
Speaker 1: sort of focused on trying to yeah, like like you said,
Speaker 1: you know, but present an image of of hunting or
Speaker 1: frankly uncover um one of the hidden images of hunting
Speaker 1: that just wasn't necessarily part of um a common part
Speaker 1: of the media mix. UM, so that people could see that,
Speaker 1: you know, there is more to hunting than what they
Speaker 1: might see on a on a certain TV show, right,
Speaker 1: or on a YouTube video or anything along those lines, right.
Speaker 1: And so we always um wanted to go deep, right.
Speaker 1: So I mean, geez, one of the stories in that
Speaker 1: pre addition you've seen was nine thousand words, right, And
Speaker 1: for some people maybe that makes their eyes glaze over,
Speaker 1: but that's what the story took to tell, right. And
Speaker 1: so we wanted to um not get all flowery and
Speaker 1: philosophic on on all subjects, but really create a form
Speaker 1: um where we can discuss the complexity, right, Like you said,
Speaker 1: I mean complexity is is that that the root of
Speaker 1: this this whole thing we call hunting, and it's also
Speaker 1: at the root of some of the problems we're facing
Speaker 1: in in in the media world. UM. And so that
Speaker 1: that was a big part of what I wanted to
Speaker 1: do and when I started it. UM four years ago,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of content out there that that
Speaker 1: kind of um suited my needs. Right, there wasn't the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff I wanted to consume. Um. And that's
Speaker 1: not to say there wasn't a lot of good stuff
Speaker 1: out there is, just I had to piece it together
Speaker 1: from you know, all sorts of different publications or forums
Speaker 1: or brand blogs or whatever the case may be. Right,
Speaker 1: that's changed obviously, there's a lot of great stuff out
Speaker 1: there nowadays. And you know, the the game has been
Speaker 1: elevated in terms of photography or film or or the
Speaker 1: print game. But um, it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: very fun job. It's a very interesting job. You know,
Speaker 1: I was in I was in healthcare. Before I made
Speaker 1: the the leap to this this field, I knew nothing
Speaker 1: about media, um and UM. The only connection I had
Speaker 1: to hunting was that I love to do it and
Speaker 1: grew up doing it. UM. And so you know, every
Speaker 1: day is kind of figuring it out as as we go,
Speaker 1: UM and UM and making sure that you know, when
Speaker 1: where possible, and if possible, everything we put out there
Speaker 1: is is you know, at least has the potential to
Speaker 1: make a person look at it and go oh this
Speaker 1: is about hunting. That's interesting. I've never seen it presented
Speaker 1: this way, right, or I rarely see it presented it
Speaker 1: presented this way. Yeah, No, that's that's that's a great point.
Speaker 1: And I mean, coming from traditional people have to just
Speaker 1: forgive me being a print journalist in my in my
Speaker 1: past lives. They're just gonna have to listen to some
Speaker 1: of the print journal journalistic industry insider talk that I'm
Speaker 1: about to have. So just deal with it. Uh. But
Speaker 1: you know the you know, the traditional books Outdoor Life,
Speaker 1: Field and Stream, Peterson Signing, North American, White Tail. We
Speaker 1: can go down and down that list of traditional print
Speaker 1: titles that have been around a long time in the
Speaker 1: hunting industry and contributed a ton to our culture and
Speaker 1: contributed a ton of knowledge to the hunting public out there. Um,
Speaker 1: they've come come upon hard times. The there's less pages,
Speaker 1: there's more advertising. Um, there's less honesty in these publications.
Speaker 1: I mean I was an editor of one of them.
Speaker 1: I can tell you that it is. Um it's hard
Speaker 1: to both sell ads and have honest editorial at the
Speaker 1: same time. Um, when those lines get blurred, it's just
Speaker 1: a really tough tough thing. And I think as the
Speaker 1: digital world pushes a more democratic exchange of information, it's
Speaker 1: tough UM for these print titles who are really really
Speaker 1: it's a cheap subscription price and they're really counting on
Speaker 1: advertising to pay the pay the bills. And that means
Speaker 1: inherently that the advertiser has a lot of influence on
Speaker 1: what's going on UM, and a lot of those advertisers
Speaker 1: certainly know that and use it as a benefit. Is
Speaker 1: there a way you feel like the journal can can
Speaker 1: buck some of those trends? And it's just overall, are
Speaker 1: you are you hopeful for for the for the medium
Speaker 1: and the messaging and all that kind of stuff, And
Speaker 1: that's a that's probably deep question, but yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean I think it's possible to buck the
Speaker 1: trend UM. But I mean, you know, we we've put
Speaker 1: out one print edition and you know, when we go
Speaker 1: live with this next one, which has been a long
Speaker 1: time coming. For anyone that is a subscriber UM or
Speaker 1: or as a customer, I should say, UM that you
Speaker 1: were were going to a quarterly schedule UM as of
Speaker 1: this year. We we started with a plan to be biennual,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna go quarterly Um. So I say that
Speaker 1: only because you know, I'm not sitting here with twenty
Speaker 1: years of experience in the print game, or one of
Speaker 1: them five years of experience in the print game. Right
Speaker 1: that said, Um, you know, in our initial print edition
Speaker 1: we had twenty pages of ad of ads and what
Speaker 1: would amount to over a hundred and fifty pages of content. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I think that the simplest and blunt way
Speaker 1: to put it is somebody has to pay, right. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's either going to be the advertisers like you're
Speaker 1: alluding to with with the traditional sort of print model,
Speaker 1: or it's the reader, right Um. And and that was
Speaker 1: the path we took. We have minimal ads, but we
Speaker 1: charge for one issue about what it costs for a
Speaker 1: subscription to most of those legacy magat magazines. Right. And
Speaker 1: and so if people want um honest editorial, UM, in
Speaker 1: depth content, UM, unique content, right, stuff they haven't seen
Speaker 1: before and can't find for free somewhere else, um, which
Speaker 1: is a whole other issue. Um, then I think people
Speaker 1: just need to to get to the get to the
Speaker 1: point where they're willing to pay for it. Right. Um.
Speaker 1: You know we're we're sitting on a free podcast, right
Speaker 1: now for at least free for people to listen to,
Speaker 1: not free to produce. You and I both know that, um.
Speaker 1: And and so with the digital side being obviously so
Speaker 1: important today in in in the media game, UM, people
Speaker 1: do expect a lot of things for free. And I
Speaker 1: get that. You know, there's certain things I expect for free.
Speaker 1: But UM, you know I still spend ten to thirty
Speaker 1: dollars on a book if I if I deem it worthwhile,
Speaker 1: right and um, and so I think with with the
Speaker 1: print game, I don't think print is dead. Um. I
Speaker 1: think just the model needs to be adjusted. And one
Speaker 1: of the more common things we here ben that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: And then I mean this is you know quite a
Speaker 1: number of um of you know responses from customers or
Speaker 1: you know, emails, etcetera from customers is um, the people
Speaker 1: welcome a break from the digital world. Right if they
Speaker 1: work at a desk, Um, they're at a computer all day,
Speaker 1: They're on their phone more than they should be. We
Speaker 1: all are, right. And so when you get something that's
Speaker 1: of quality in your hands, that is is visually enticing
Speaker 1: and has quality content and honest editorial. Um. You know
Speaker 1: a lot of people have emailed us saying like it's
Speaker 1: just so nice to put all that stuff down, turn
Speaker 1: off the monitor and actually sit down and read something again. Um.
Speaker 1: And of course it has to have quality to to
Speaker 1: support that. But I do think people still like print. Um.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you ever heard the term
Speaker 1: digital fatigue, but I think that's a real thing. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think we just we in the media business
Speaker 1: just need to tweak our approach to how we how
Speaker 1: we essentially package print content. Yeah. No, that's a great point.
Speaker 1: I've said that a lot about even hunting hate always
Speaker 1: go back to like the overall the broad concept of hunting.
Speaker 1: But you know, urbanization has been one of the things
Speaker 1: that has pushed hunting number is down, puts hunting participation down.
Speaker 1: And my estimation here lately, you see a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are bucking that urbanization trend and looking for
Speaker 1: places to looking for ways to get out of those
Speaker 1: urban environments and go experience something a little bit different.
Speaker 1: And if you put hunting in there and their path,
Speaker 1: they'll accept it every time, as long as you put
Speaker 1: it in their path with the right framing. Um. Much
Speaker 1: same with much the same with this with print, print journalism,
Speaker 1: and uh, the print publications like yours. If you put
Speaker 1: it in the path of a uh, a media hound,
Speaker 1: someone who loves to read, and they're just tired of
Speaker 1: poking around Twitter and getting misdirected and and having a
Speaker 1: lot of opinions thrown at them, it's nice to turn
Speaker 1: that off and just read it. You know, like I said,
Speaker 1: nine thousand world article is is ridiculously long. I used
Speaker 1: to you know, they used to say eight hundred words
Speaker 1: is about everybody's attention span. And you and I have
Speaker 1: had this conversation before. I said their attention span. Um.
Speaker 1: While I can there that to be important, I really
Speaker 1: just want to get the message out the best way
Speaker 1: that I can. And if it's nine thousand words instead
Speaker 1: of eight hundred, then that's what I'm gonna do. And
Speaker 1: I'll trust that people appreciate that, and if I guess,
Speaker 1: we'll go out of business if they don't. Um, Because
Speaker 1: you really got to be honest to the content. And
Speaker 1: I feel like that's what the journal Amount of Hunting
Speaker 1: really does and that's why I'm reading it that you
Speaker 1: get that this is just an honest accounting of of
Speaker 1: these stories and the places and the people at which
Speaker 1: I think is is how how films you know, how
Speaker 1: you know a company I work for, YETI how their
Speaker 1: films have become popular because they focus on story first
Speaker 1: and they're not um driven by anything else but that
Speaker 1: and that for in a in a in a world
Speaker 1: where everybody is being pandered too, it's a straight up
Speaker 1: honest account or honest story that is important to the
Speaker 1: overall culture. Seems like maybe it's a little bit of
Speaker 1: an outlier, which is sad to say, but um, I hope,
Speaker 1: I hope people are increasingly willing to pay the premium
Speaker 1: for a publication like yours, but also willing to pay
Speaker 1: premiums for podcasts as well. Um, because as a podcaster,
Speaker 1: you have a podcast yourself beyond the kill. UM. I
Speaker 1: think we probably both feel pressure to collect advertisers to
Speaker 1: make a profit. But every time you kind of inch
Speaker 1: to the next advertiser and you get to give a
Speaker 1: little bit of yourself with each one of them, whether
Speaker 1: you like it or not. Um, And that's a tough
Speaker 1: position to be in. So I would hope that just
Speaker 1: is a pure honest um storyteller and a communicator that
Speaker 1: you could find that you know, find a balance if
Speaker 1: you struck any balances. That you found to be beneficial.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good question. It's funny. I gotta ask
Speaker 1: this um earlier today, or at least in a similar
Speaker 1: sort of question. You know, I think UM we UM.
Speaker 1: We from the get go UM focused on quality over quantity.
Speaker 1: So that so that was multifaceted. That was in the
Speaker 1: stuff we produced, right, the articles we put out there,
Speaker 1: and then I'm not saying they're all perfect, and I'm
Speaker 1: certainly not saying they're better than other stuff out there.
Speaker 1: They're just um, they're they're just they're different right there
Speaker 1: in depth. I mean, you'll we've we've had online stories
Speaker 1: that were you know, somebody's submitted to us with awesome
Speaker 1: photos that were you know, seven thousand, eight thousand words
Speaker 1: along right that we broke up into two parts. So
Speaker 1: you know, we always wanted to give the story a chance.
Speaker 1: I guess they're like like, when you talk about an
Speaker 1: eight hundred word attention span, will you know not many
Speaker 1: of the books that are on my bookshelf for eight
Speaker 1: hundred words, right, So I think if if the materials
Speaker 1: put together UM in an engaging way, right at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, do good work, right, you gotta
Speaker 1: do good work people aren't going to read. I mean
Speaker 1: that that's a bigger hit on intention span than than
Speaker 1: the length. Right. UM. But you know, we we stayed
Speaker 1: really committed and continue to stay really committed to to
Speaker 1: that side of it. UM, not just putting things out
Speaker 1: there to generate clicks or UM you know, volume of
Speaker 1: traffic or stuff like that. Sure that's great, but UM
Speaker 1: there's ways to as you know, UM, to manipulate that
Speaker 1: side of the game, UM without there actually being a
Speaker 1: lot of quality or substance to it. So so there's
Speaker 1: that side of it. And the second part of it is, UM,
Speaker 1: we no different than what the print edition and talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, basically asking our readers to pay. We kept
Speaker 1: our advertising spots to a minimum. UM. This is online
Speaker 1: and in print and on the podcast for that matter
Speaker 1: as well. And UM in charge the premium four we
Speaker 1: we basically said to an advertiser, UM, you know, we'd
Speaker 1: love to work with you company x UM assuming there
Speaker 1: was you know, UM, I hate to use you know,
Speaker 1: whatever media douche terms like brand synergy, but you know
Speaker 1: that there was there was alignment right between our brand
Speaker 1: and their brand. UM, and UM, we would say we'd
Speaker 1: like to work with you, you will be one of
Speaker 1: you know, six, or one of twenty or one of four,
Speaker 1: depending on the channel we're talking about that's on this platform.
Speaker 1: So because of that you know, very prominent and basically
Speaker 1: impossible to miss position, we're gonna ask you to pay
Speaker 1: a lot more than you otherwise would in the volume game. UM.
Speaker 1: So that ended up being something that that that worked
Speaker 1: real well for us. That that the outset and continues
Speaker 1: to work well to a point. UM. And uh, that's
Speaker 1: not to suggest that there aren't you know, I can't
Speaker 1: say conflicts, but there aren't people that are skeptical of
Speaker 1: our relationships with an advertiser. Um. And simply that we're
Speaker 1: talking about you know, a given brand or product because
Speaker 1: we're paid to do so. UM. I would honestly say,
Speaker 1: and I mean this, you know, as sincerely as as
Speaker 1: I can as I possibly can that because we've we've
Speaker 1: worked predominantly with a really limited group of as we
Speaker 1: would call them, sponsors. And that's not me being sponsored,
Speaker 1: that's you know, sponsors of of our content. UM. We've
Speaker 1: been fortunate enough to work with brands that are really
Speaker 1: damn easy to to to, you know, to represent and support,
Speaker 1: right if they make damn good packs. It's hard to
Speaker 1: you know not or it's not hard to to say
Speaker 1: these are damn good packs or if they make good
Speaker 1: firearms or optics or whatever. Um, it's pretty easy to um,
Speaker 1: you know, beastly just embed those in in in you know,
Speaker 1: the platform of the channel, UM and be authentic about it. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'd agree. And that's that's you know, maybe there's the balance. UM.
Speaker 1: I say maybe because you're working in a world and
Speaker 1: we all are, everybody that creates media, working in a
Speaker 1: world where people are rightfully suspicious of your motivations when
Speaker 1: you start talking about consumer products. UM. And I ran
Speaker 1: into this personally being uh on the Joe Rogan podcast,
Speaker 1: and because I work at Yetti and every time we
Speaker 1: mentioned Yetti, people just assume that maybe YETI paid for
Speaker 1: this for paid for me to be on there, or
Speaker 1: paid Joe to have me on UM And rightfully, so
Speaker 1: they should should think in those terms. I mean that
Speaker 1: that is Uh, there's a lot of that going on. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of submersive advertising, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, Batman jumps out of the Batmobile and
Speaker 1: gets into a BMW like he didn't need to get
Speaker 1: in that BMW's got a damn batmobile. Um, and so
Speaker 1: there there's just that there's those things that that it
Speaker 1: almost feels falsely submersive, like, oh, we trick them to drive,
Speaker 1: you know, Batman drives BMW. Everybody else should too. So um.
Speaker 1: You know, as a consumer, I don't like to be duped.
Speaker 1: I don't like to be uh. I don't like to
Speaker 1: need a product based on osmosis. I'd like to really
Speaker 1: need it and really be informed about it. Especially in
Speaker 1: the niche media world where you and I live spend
Speaker 1: most of our time. So it's an interesting time opic
Speaker 1: because when you're hunting, and especially when you're on the map,
Speaker 1: when you're on a mountain, things to get dangerous and
Speaker 1: you need to rely on the products that you're using
Speaker 1: and they you you put a lot of money in
Speaker 1: time and these efforts. And if if there's a a
Speaker 1: journalistic um platform out there, or at least you know,
Speaker 1: faintly journalistic platform that's telling you you should use something
Speaker 1: based on being paid to tell you that, that really
Speaker 1: devalues your time with the goddamn mountain, and um, that
Speaker 1: equation starts to get really gross. It starts to get uh,
Speaker 1: starts to feel cheap, and it starts to just devalue
Speaker 1: all media that isn't you know, social or UM in
Speaker 1: a digital platform. So I'm glad, really why I want
Speaker 1: to just bring this up and talk through some of
Speaker 1: this with this, just because it almost feels like what
Speaker 1: you're doing fights back against um our better nature to
Speaker 1: accept a lot of money too, to not lie but
Speaker 1: misrepresent things. Yeah. Well, I mean that's that's the very
Speaker 1: gracious of you to say, Ben. I mean, it means
Speaker 1: a lot coming from you that UM you you see
Speaker 1: it that way. And you know, if I go back
Speaker 1: to when we started the journal UM in August, you know,
Speaker 1: it was it was the proverbial scratching my own itch, right,
Speaker 1: So like I would go to a hunting form or
Speaker 1: a website or wherever right to look for information or
Speaker 1: to read stories or just you know bs, and I'd
Speaker 1: just be like inundated with you know, good old ad tech,
Speaker 1: you know, things popping up and flashing and trying to
Speaker 1: distract me from why I was there. And I just
Speaker 1: you know, I don't I don't know if we could
Speaker 1: say intuitively, but I just thought, you know, there's got
Speaker 1: to be a better way, like I don't click on
Speaker 1: those things, I don't read those things. They have zero
Speaker 1: impact on me. How is this performing? Right? Um? And
Speaker 1: so you know, whether we call we're trying to do
Speaker 1: as as fighting back or just trying to offer an
Speaker 1: alternate option, which certainly isn't for everyone. I mean, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, there's there are brands that that need volume
Speaker 1: in one volume, right, and that's we're not the place
Speaker 1: for that. UM. If UM, you want to have a
Speaker 1: hyper targeted, hyper engaged audience that is UM shrewd and
Speaker 1: discerning um that maybe we are right um and and
Speaker 1: and again we've been really lucky in that UM because
Speaker 1: we only work with a small batch of brands that
Speaker 1: it's not hard to fill the holes you should as
Speaker 1: an advertiser and can right kind of check the boxes
Speaker 1: of the categories that are you know, the companies that
Speaker 1: need to invest in their marketing and pr UM, we've
Speaker 1: been lucky and that those are usually best in class
Speaker 1: or in the top three to five of the class. Right.
Speaker 1: And so it's really easy to to be honest, um.
Speaker 1: And and you're right though it is very also very
Speaker 1: um justifiable for people to be skeptical and they should
Speaker 1: be and I, in fact, I welcome that. I like
Speaker 1: that right as if a person wanted to ask myself
Speaker 1: for anyone that worked here with us about this or
Speaker 1: a better product or something like that, They're going to
Speaker 1: get a real answer, right because we I mean, not
Speaker 1: only are we happy to work with the companies we do,
Speaker 1: but I guarantee you, as you will have seen in
Speaker 1: that film I sent you, um, you better damn won't
Speaker 1: believe we put it to the test. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: I mean that's the important part, is that you can
Speaker 1: stand by that product, whether that ad is in that
Speaker 1: magazine or not. And I and I would hope and
Speaker 1: I will do this And sometimes I wish we could
Speaker 1: do this live or people could call in. But when
Speaker 1: we post this podcast, I'm going to put up a
Speaker 1: poll or or fashion something where I can ask people like,
Speaker 1: are you willing to shuffle through a bunch of advertising
Speaker 1: to get to the content you want? Or would you
Speaker 1: rather pay money to see that content free of that advertising,
Speaker 1: or at least in your case, with more appropriate advertising
Speaker 1: that that feels natural and is more of a supportive
Speaker 1: role as opposed to a submersive role. I want to
Speaker 1: know that from people because I want to know. Um,
Speaker 1: in my career, there was a big time where pay
Speaker 1: walls were just not tolerated. Like if you may, if
Speaker 1: you were digital editor and your your magazine or your newspaper,
Speaker 1: UH tried to make the audience pay for the content,
Speaker 1: you would just nobody would do it. But I think
Speaker 1: that's changing now. I think people are willing to pay
Speaker 1: for quality content and good in depth reporting and good
Speaker 1: quality information that isn't touched by any outside sources. So
Speaker 1: hopefully you know if you're listening to this and you
Speaker 1: have an opinion right in, But if not, you know,
Speaker 1: shoot me an email or shoot us a direct message
Speaker 1: on on Instagram. But if if if not, check check
Speaker 1: everything out, go back to UH our pages and look
Speaker 1: for some polls and let us know what you think.
Speaker 1: Because I think that's that's really up to the folks
Speaker 1: listening and reading to continue to to drive that conversation
Speaker 1: and tell us what they want, um, what they need.
Speaker 1: So UM, that's a great conversation what I could have forever.
Speaker 1: But you mentioned UH what I believe is one of
Speaker 1: the more hardcore hunts that I've ever seen, and I've
Speaker 1: I think that when you return from this hunt, I
Speaker 1: said something like, Um, the the pain threshold just went
Speaker 1: up a little bit. I try to find the most
Speaker 1: suffrage I can on the mountain when I can. You
Speaker 1: know places I've been, like New Zealand or Nepal, but
Speaker 1: I feel like you might have have have willingly went
Speaker 1: into the most painful mountain hunting situation humanly possible. And
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to tell us all about that because
Speaker 1: it's a doozy. I think that's the first time I've
Speaker 1: heard it UM sort of reviewed in that manner Ben
Speaker 1: Ben and I like it. I like it a lot actually,
Speaker 1: so UM the film we're talking about here UM, which
Speaker 1: we released very recently. I'm again I'm not sure when
Speaker 1: this podcast to lay air, but it was released on
Speaker 1: my thirty one. So it's been up UM as of
Speaker 1: today for what five days, six days something like that. UM.
Speaker 1: And so it it's called Toying the Line and UM.
Speaker 1: You know you can find that on YouTube where you
Speaker 1: can get you can get it on our on the
Speaker 1: Jernal Mountain Hunting website. UM. On our UM we got
Speaker 1: a watch section that has films and stuff on it.
Speaker 1: And and so this was a a February just as
Speaker 1: pass February UM mountain goat hunt in northern BC, north
Speaker 1: coastal BC, just just shy the Alaska border. And UM
Speaker 1: six of us went into this this area. UM that
Speaker 1: we took a boat down the inlet and got dropped
Speaker 1: off you know, some nameless creek or at least one
Speaker 1: that I won't name on here, UM and UM and
Speaker 1: and just went after it. And and the simple you know,
Speaker 1: sort of premise of the film is, UM, this was
Speaker 1: a guide's hunt, not a guided hunt. A guide's hunt.
Speaker 1: So the main character, Nolan Osborne is his name. He,
Speaker 1: like most guides, UM spends you know, four or five
Speaker 1: six months a year, depending on how the year plays out,
Speaker 1: helping other people fill their own tags. But as far
Speaker 1: as um feeding his passion for mountain hunting, by the
Speaker 1: time the season wraps up, there's not there's not really
Speaker 1: a whole lot left. And at least in BC. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you could go overseas and you know, plug
Speaker 1: yourself into some of the really lengthy seasons there for
Speaker 1: you know, various mountain species. But in BC you're not
Speaker 1: left with a whole lot when the guiding seasons all
Speaker 1: wrapped up. And so he decided to UM for better
Speaker 1: for worse. Go on, um this this very late season,
Speaker 1: literally the end of February. Um, goat hunt and into
Speaker 1: some into some pretty nearly terrain, and you know it
Speaker 1: was you know, minus twenty celsius most of the time.
Speaker 1: Let me stop you real quick, minus twenty celsius. What's
Speaker 1: that fair knheight? And you say most of the time.
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I'm not sure what the fahrenet
Speaker 1: can conversion. It's cold as ship. Everybody cold is hell,
Speaker 1: and these guys you're talking about nine days and in
Speaker 1: sub freezing temperatures. And Nolan, if you watch the film,
Speaker 1: Nolan's a badass of badasses. But cramp on ice Axes
Speaker 1: just some um what I would say, general insanity, but
Speaker 1: the best kind. So continue, I was, I just people
Speaker 1: just need to understand it's cold as hell here, and
Speaker 1: cold as hell normally means you're endanger at almost every
Speaker 1: point of the day because you need to keep your
Speaker 1: body tempts up, you need to not freeze and die.
Speaker 1: So let's let's start this. Let's continue the story on
Speaker 1: that premise. Go at them. Yeah, so I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was cold a f right
Speaker 1: like um, but you know, as Canadians. That's not something
Speaker 1: we're overly concerned with. I mean, like you said, it
Speaker 1: just it just changes, Um, I say, just it changes everything, right,
Speaker 1: I mean from your moisture management, so you know your
Speaker 1: a perrel system to your firearm or and you know
Speaker 1: if you were carrying a boat would obviously impact that. Um,
Speaker 1: how you get water. I mean, we couldn't hike for
Speaker 1: more than five minutes without our water bottles freezing shot
Speaker 1: and so we couldn't drink. So there's I mean, we've
Speaker 1: got imagery of me, you know, holding the water bottle
Speaker 1: up to my mouth analogy and not metal so it
Speaker 1: didn't get stuck to me. Um, but breathing like you know,
Speaker 1: the like really aggressive breaths around the rim of the analogen,
Speaker 1: and just so I had a chance of breaking the
Speaker 1: frozen seal to to get a gulp of water which
Speaker 1: was already half frozen after you know a little bit
Speaker 1: of hiking after I just filled it up, right, So, um,
Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it was tough, and it was tough
Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons. The country this was in
Speaker 1: is is as steep and early as it gets. I mean,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be a surprise this is This was a
Speaker 1: late season mountain goat hunt. Mountain goats are not known
Speaker 1: for living in um, you know, gentle terrain, and so
Speaker 1: it was it was a test of absolutely everything that
Speaker 1: you could test as a hunter, right, your physicality or
Speaker 1: your mental fortitude, your gear, um and um. And it
Speaker 1: was just an absolute phenomenal hunt. We had Dustin Rowe
Speaker 1: was along with us. He actually had planned to come
Speaker 1: and hunt for himself. Um. This is actually kind of
Speaker 1: funny with his bow. Um. And the first day I
Speaker 1: don't know if he caught this in the film or not, Ben,
Speaker 1: but um, it took us five and a half hours
Speaker 1: to cover two kilometers and so we got we got
Speaker 1: in there. We got set up at what we would
Speaker 1: consider base camp, and woke up the next morning and
Speaker 1: started glass and found found some some goats and in
Speaker 1: particular some some billies that we were, you know, willing
Speaker 1: to put the effort into chase, but they were literally
Speaker 1: on the summits of these mountains. And Dustin came back
Speaker 1: in from glass ng looked at his bow hanging on
Speaker 1: a broken off tree branch and just looked at us
Speaker 1: and said, yep, that's stay in there. And um and
Speaker 1: and the hunt shifted into just getting Nolan his goat,
Speaker 1: which had been the plan for the film all along,
Speaker 1: and so um it uh it was filled with adventure
Speaker 1: and comedy and danger and everything you're looking for, right,
Speaker 1: Like you said, you know when you go out there
Speaker 1: and you're looking for the ultimate suffrage. Um, we got
Speaker 1: that in spades. It took everything we had and and
Speaker 1: and then half again more to to pull this thing off.
Speaker 1: And um, I don't think any one of us would
Speaker 1: would treade it for the world, despite there not being
Speaker 1: a single day where we didn't look at each other
Speaker 1: and go, what in the are we doing right now? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And Dustin Rose a tough son of a b man
Speaker 1: like he that there's nothing about him that that has
Speaker 1: quit in him. I mean he's done just about everything
Speaker 1: on a mountain that that a guy could do. Um,
Speaker 1: and to hear that of him is one good of him,
Speaker 1: is a part of a hunting party. But but also
Speaker 1: just tells me, hey, look, this is a this is
Speaker 1: a rough situation. And um, I think it's universal. You
Speaker 1: know this. You get in these situations and you're suffering
Speaker 1: through something, then you you've kind of stacked the odds
Speaker 1: against yourself on purpose and or just you know, just
Speaker 1: by circumstance, and it takes a whole crew of people
Speaker 1: to to to accomplish something. And Um, watching the film,
Speaker 1: I just was struck by the story. Yeah sure, but
Speaker 1: I was just struck by the the team work it
Speaker 1: takes to film, how cameras work when it's that cold,
Speaker 1: how a team of people have to work together. I mean,
Speaker 1: you guys were talking about having to hike a little
Speaker 1: bit and then stop, and and somebody go through it
Speaker 1: and pick through the ice and hike a little bit
Speaker 1: and stop, And I mean just the teamwork that it takes,
Speaker 1: in the bond that you have with the people that
Speaker 1: go on those types of trips with you. He's amazing you.
Speaker 1: You know, I've never felt anything like it. Obviously I've
Speaker 1: never been in the military or anything like that, but
Speaker 1: I've never felt the bond like that. I mean, you
Speaker 1: guys all felt that coming off the mountain. I imagine,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, no, no doubt. I mean to give some
Speaker 1: context to that. So it's so two quick stories. Um,
Speaker 1: before I know, we'll we'll need to start wrapping up.
Speaker 1: But um, you to your point about Dustin, I don't
Speaker 1: even remember the exact number but he's been um a
Speaker 1: part of more than one hundred sheep hunts. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean he's he's guided all of those himself, but he's
Speaker 1: been a part of them. UM And on one one
Speaker 1: ascent or attempted an ascent before we got turned around
Speaker 1: with our tails between our legs. Um, it took us
Speaker 1: seven and a half hours to go eleven vertical feet
Speaker 1: and on that climb, So that that was in part
Speaker 1: because of the steep, like the grade, the steepness, Um,
Speaker 1: but also the snow depths. I mean when there were
Speaker 1: there are points that and you'll see this in the
Speaker 1: film if you choose to watch it where you know
Speaker 1: we're in snow that's anywhere from me to nipple deep
Speaker 1: at times. And so when you when you talk about
Speaker 1: that teamwork, Ben, we went we had to break trail
Speaker 1: everywhere we went through this this pretty hefty snowpack. And
Speaker 1: the guy leading, the guy breaking trail could only go,
Speaker 1: depending on the grade, you know, twenty two maybe forty
Speaker 1: five minutes if you were lucky, UM before he would
Speaker 1: be absolutely destroyed and would have to drop to the
Speaker 1: back of the stack. And the guy that was second
Speaker 1: would now break trail. Guy that third is packing down
Speaker 1: that trail a little bit more, and so on and
Speaker 1: so forth. So we were running this sort of flying
Speaker 1: v of alternating guy's break and trail. So it's very
Speaker 1: very slow going, right. So one, you're right, the team
Speaker 1: was I think essential. I don't know. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's people that could do it solo. They have
Speaker 1: to be the harder, hardest s obs on the planet
Speaker 1: to do it. I don't even know if two or
Speaker 1: three guys um could have could have done at least
Speaker 1: the trip that we did. Um, I really believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, four to six was the minimum to to
Speaker 1: be able to even just move around like be mobile.
Speaker 1: But on this climb, coming back to Dustin, on this
Speaker 1: climb that took us seven hours to cover, not a
Speaker 1: whole lot of elevation, We're about halfway up and dust
Speaker 1: and I are in the middle of the group and
Speaker 1: where you know, it's one of those you know, probably
Speaker 1: someone to what you experienced in the poll in certain ways,
Speaker 1: obviously not the elevation side of it, but you know,
Speaker 1: the ten fifteen steps and he even and suck wind
Speaker 1: over top of your hiking pools, right Dustin. Dustin turns
Speaker 1: to me and we're both dripping sweat and and just
Speaker 1: working our butt off and we're dripping sweat at minus
Speaker 1: twenty um, and he goes, it does not get any
Speaker 1: more bleeping hardcore than this. He wipes the sweat off
Speaker 1: his brow and keeps hiking right. And so I said,
Speaker 1: I stood there for a minute, and I thought, yeah,
Speaker 1: damn it, man, like if Dustin saying that, what the
Speaker 1: hell did I get myself into? Right? Yeah? And you
Speaker 1: always come back from it, like if they don't know,
Speaker 1: not always. There's plenty of examples of people that have
Speaker 1: unfortunate um things happen and maybe don't come back. But
Speaker 1: in these cases, like you, you have it doubt into
Speaker 1: the point where you know it's time to stop, and um,
Speaker 1: what's cool about the film, but was also you know
Speaker 1: what's cool about the people in it is that that
Speaker 1: you're you're you're always moving the goal post back a
Speaker 1: little bit. You know, you get to the point where
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore, and and you stop and
Speaker 1: you're like, I can do a little bit more, and
Speaker 1: then you go and you stop, and you go, I
Speaker 1: can do a little bit more, and then you go,
Speaker 1: and then eventually you get to your destination and uh,
Speaker 1: and then I'm sure I've been this way. But I'm
Speaker 1: sure when you guys got back home and you were
Speaker 1: you know how your first world problem started to pop
Speaker 1: up back in your real life. You're like, man, that's nothing.
Speaker 1: I have summitted. The craziest mountain um, and the craziest
Speaker 1: weather and and the crazy situation is anybody can imagine.
Speaker 1: Even if Dustin Ross has it's hardcore, it's hardcore. Um,
Speaker 1: he's kind of the arbiter of hardcore in my mountain
Speaker 1: hunting life. And uh, he you know, you get back
Speaker 1: and like life seems a little bit easier because because uh,
Speaker 1: by comparison it is so UM. I appreciate that perspective,
Speaker 1: and I really appreciate the perspective that film gives. UM.
Speaker 1: And and hopefully everybody gets to hear nolan story and
Speaker 1: watch that hunt because it is um it's one of
Speaker 1: the better ones I've seen a long time. And if
Speaker 1: you can watch it through the prism of pure elevated suffrage, UM,
Speaker 1: you'll probably enjoy it more and probably cringe a little
Speaker 1: bit more. And some of the stuff you see, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's the I think the best way
Speaker 1: I could put it is. Um, if you're you know,
Speaker 1: a a self considered you know, pretty serious backcountry or
Speaker 1: mountain hunter, you're definitely gonna like this film. Um. If
Speaker 1: if you couldn't care less about mountain hunting or goat hunting,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you're still gonna like this film because
Speaker 1: of what you just outlined it it is. It's you know,
Speaker 1: it's sure it's a hunting story, UM. But I think
Speaker 1: you know, like you outlined Ben, the um the camaraderie,
Speaker 1: the teamwork, um. You know, the the environment like the
Speaker 1: environment was was showcased obviously, um and and the suffrage
Speaker 1: it took to to get it done. And that was,
Speaker 1: you know, admittedly a big part of what we wanted
Speaker 1: to share and while at the same time not stilly
Speaker 1: getting all romantic, but it's just show that, you know,
Speaker 1: not all hunting is um as easy as some people
Speaker 1: might think it to be. And I do hope that
Speaker 1: some people that don't hunt will stumble across it and
Speaker 1: kind of go, huh wow. I didn't think that was
Speaker 1: something that happened, right, um and and uh so, And
Speaker 1: I don't want that to sound like it was you know,
Speaker 1: contrived or manipulate. I mean, this is this is what
Speaker 1: it took. But um, and we knew that going into it,
Speaker 1: and that was part of why we wanted to do
Speaker 1: a film. We knew we were gonna We're gonna come
Speaker 1: home with something pretty different. So so yeah, I just
Speaker 1: encourage and would be grateful for for anyone that's listening
Speaker 1: to to check it out. Um. It is on the
Speaker 1: longer side of what's considered normal these days. Ironically, when
Speaker 1: we talk about attention spans an eight hundred word stories,
Speaker 1: et cetera. It is a twenty minute, um, you know film.
Speaker 1: So it's not something I would say watch on your
Speaker 1: on your phone if you can avoid it. But we've
Speaker 1: we've had a lot of great feedback and the response
Speaker 1: has been phenomenal. And I'd like to add, ben if
Speaker 1: I could just quickly that, um, all credit is due
Speaker 1: to Connor at tell Us Creative because he is really
Speaker 1: the brains behind what you see in that film. You know,
Speaker 1: the shots, the shot angles, the way it was edited
Speaker 1: and cut together, the music, everything that that is that
Speaker 1: is his. That is his baby, right. I mean I
Speaker 1: was involved obviously, um in whatever capacity you want to
Speaker 1: call my involvement, But um, I was very thankfully able
Speaker 1: to you know, chime in as needed and when needed
Speaker 1: and then let Connor UM produce what you saw. So
Speaker 1: he's he's got an immense amount of talent, and you
Speaker 1: know everyone's everyone's been loving the film that has watched it. Well,
Speaker 1: that's good. I've always found that it's nice to have
Speaker 1: really creative people around to make you look good. That's
Speaker 1: indeed my experience. But this it's fantastic. Peace and hope
Speaker 1: everybody goes and checks it out and checks out the
Speaker 1: journal Mountain Hunting and it just kind of gets immersed
Speaker 1: in Adam's world and and the people he strounds himself with.
Speaker 1: Because it is UM. I'd like to be real, real
Speaker 1: sy stake to the old podcast and bring it all around.
Speaker 1: It is something that can can help how you see
Speaker 1: hunting and really is is my estimation about the experience,
Speaker 1: and UM can connect with with hunters on a different
Speaker 1: level and people maybe that don't hunt, to help help
Speaker 1: put that thing down. So the next time we have
Speaker 1: a controversy, everybody has UM their ideas all packaged up
Speaker 1: and ready to go to UM fight these battles that
Speaker 1: we we always we need to fight UM because we
Speaker 1: hate to use those terms, but it's the truth. So Adam,
Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on and joining me,
Speaker 1: and um for doing what you do in our industry,
Speaker 1: in our world, and uh being our resident Canadian if
Speaker 1: you don't mind being that guy, and I sure don't
Speaker 1: think of any damon, all right, brother, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ben, really appreciate the time, and uh for
Speaker 1: everyone listening. Thanks for sitting aside at the time to
Speaker 1: listen to a Canadian with a funny accent. That's about it.
Speaker 1: I can't say about very good. But a boots get
Speaker 1: you gotta get your boot. It's a boot, Ben, a boot.
Speaker 1: That's a boot. It there you go, man, Thanks Ben,
Speaker 1: take care. That's it. That's all. Episode number sixteen in
Speaker 1: the books. Thank you to Adam. Thank you to the
Speaker 1: journal Amountain Hunting for doing what you do. Everybody associated
Speaker 1: with that media house, making films, making podcasts, printing out magazine.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you, appreciate your message, appreciate how you
Speaker 1: do it. H Episode number sixteen was great. Look forward
Speaker 1: episode number seventeen. I am making a trip to Bozeman,
Speaker 1: Montana next week. Hopefully I'll catch up with a lot
Speaker 1: of guys open to catch up with one Cody Rich,
Speaker 1: the Rich Outdoors, maybe catch up with the elusive Latvia
Speaker 1: and Eagle be honest to tell us this home country.
Speaker 1: Never know. Oh that's gonna go. But I do love
Speaker 1: Mesa Johnny, so look out for those episode number seventeen
Speaker 1: and eighteen. Hopefully we'll be those two folks, but we're
Speaker 1: headed there that it's gonna be fun until then. The
Speaker 1: Honey Collective dot com has articles, it has videos, it
Speaker 1: has other podcasts from Steve Rinella, Remy Warrant, John Dudley,
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney. I'll remarcus the two most recent. I really
Speaker 1: want you to listen to a Ryan Callahan on episode
Speaker 1: number fifteen and Casey Butler an episode number fourteen. Both great, great,
Speaker 1: great people and a great hunt. I had those guys.
Speaker 1: It's Noora Mexico, so I'm not so norm Mexico so
Speaker 1: Noora Texas Way North. But those are two great podcasts
Speaker 1: with great guys, So keep listening, keep comment at video
Speaker 1: B three oh one, on Instagram and on our website.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from me. I'd love to see
Speaker 1: the emails, love to hear your stories. Please please keep
Speaker 1: coming it gets me up in the morning sometimes to
Speaker 1: read those awesome accounts and awesome reasoning everything you want
Speaker 1: me to know. Even if you want to tell me
Speaker 1: that I saw, I'll read it. I appreciate you, guys,
Speaker 1: see you and instep and