WEBVTT - White Boy Rick

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and Jerry's here too, And this is stuff you

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<v Speaker 2>should know. Our ongoing fascination with Detroit edition.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right, this is very Detroit. I was gonna

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<v Speaker 1>say ad Jason, but it's like, firmly in Detroit's not

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<v Speaker 1>even a Jason centered even because we're talking about white

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<v Speaker 1>boy Rick who if you have not seen the movie

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<v Speaker 1>starring Oh god, what's the guy's.

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<v Speaker 2>Name who played him, Matthew McConaughey.

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<v Speaker 1>No, he played the dad. Oh, Matthew McConaughey makes a

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<v Speaker 1>little more sense older than we are.

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<v Speaker 2>I know. I was like, did they dress him up

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<v Speaker 2>like a teenager?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? How do you play a fourteen year old? I

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<v Speaker 1>can't remember the kid's name, but I have not seen

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<v Speaker 1>that movie. There's also a bunch of documentaries, but in

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<v Speaker 1>particular one that's pretty good about this kid in the eighties,

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<v Speaker 1>Rick worsh who was an FBI informant at the age

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<v Speaker 1>of fourteen in secret.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and this is completely one hundred percent true, Like

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<v Speaker 2>this has been vetted, thoroughly researched, and his claims, although

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<v Speaker 2>they seem like, Okay, this is just some guy talking,

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<v Speaker 2>you know who's in prison, just keeping himself from getting bored. Nope.

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<v Speaker 2>Like basically everything he's ever said about his time as

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<v Speaker 2>an FBI informant and a teenage drug runner has been confirmed.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is an amazing true story. And it's also

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<v Speaker 2>a sad true story in a lot of ways too,

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<v Speaker 2>because this guy lost a significant portion of his life

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<v Speaker 2>to really stupid drug laws at the height of the

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<v Speaker 2>War on drugs, when everybody was so gung ho about

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<v Speaker 2>just lock them up, lock the drug dealers up, and

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<v Speaker 2>go ahead and lock up the drug users while you

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<v Speaker 2>do it too, and it was it was a bad

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<v Speaker 2>time to be caught with kilos of coke. I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell you that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, after he had been almost induced into this lifestyle

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<v Speaker 1>by the FBI as an informant, and then when that

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<v Speaker 1>was as you'll see, when that was taken away. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's hard for a kid to give up that

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<v Speaker 1>lifestyle because that's his life at that point. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you know, turned on him and there was cover

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<v Speaker 1>ups and Detroit, Detroit, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think to describe how the FBI induced

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<v Speaker 2>him to do it. You can kind of say that

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<v Speaker 2>they put a bunch of cash in his hand, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>popped his collar, turned him around by the shoulders, and

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<v Speaker 2>shoved him out onto the street. That's basically how they

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<v Speaker 2>induced him to essentially become a member of the East

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<v Speaker 2>Detroit drug scene, like drug supply scene. He was rolling

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<v Speaker 2>with like as big as you get essentially at the time. Time.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, so let's go back, I guess to his

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<v Speaker 1>birth in nineteen sixty nine. He's close a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>years older than me, And like you said, this was

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<v Speaker 1>the East side of Detroit when he was six. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Rick Wirsch Junior. His parents separated, his mom moved

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<v Speaker 1>out to the burbs, and then generally he and his

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<v Speaker 1>sister Don lived with their dad, Matthew McConaughey, Richard Wirsch Senior.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was a time where the auto industry was

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<v Speaker 1>disappearing in Detroit. You know, the kind of familiar story

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<v Speaker 1>of Detroit is that it fell into sort of violence

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<v Speaker 1>and drugs and crack came along, and white flight happened

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<v Speaker 1>in a big, big way. So Rick and Don and

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<v Speaker 1>their father were a bit of an anomaly as a

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<v Speaker 1>white family that kind of stayed where they were on

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<v Speaker 1>the Detroit's East Side at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And one reason why is because this was their neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>White boy. Rick's grandparents lived directly across the street from him,

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<v Speaker 2>so like these were his dad's parents. It was like

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<v Speaker 2>a family community. There were other people who were sticking around,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, they were. They were definitely outnumbered by the

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<v Speaker 2>people who were moving to town to essentially take over Detroit.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was a market just right for being taken over,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was there was this one group called the

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<v Speaker 2>Chamber Brothers. They moved from Arkansas and became some of

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest dealers in town, so much so that at

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<v Speaker 2>one point they controlled a formerly opulent apartment building. It

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<v Speaker 2>was their stronghold headquarters that they sold crack out of,

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturer crack out of. It was a big, big operation

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<v Speaker 2>and it was just right there in the middle of Detroit.

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<v Speaker 2>Because this is one of the most lawless times in

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<v Speaker 2>the history of that city, entire history. Not only was

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<v Speaker 2>it the drug people, the cops were about as dirty

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<v Speaker 2>as they come at the time too.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. So Rick's dad was a kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a schemer, had you know, various get rich or make

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of money quick scams going on here

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<v Speaker 1>and there. He worked as a manager of a gun

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<v Speaker 1>store as well and bought and sold guns out of

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<v Speaker 1>his house, including like taking a son to gun shows

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<v Speaker 1>when he was just a kid. But the result of

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<v Speaker 1>that was is that his dad knew and was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>had FBI guys like as his customers. He had agents

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<v Speaker 1>that he was friendly with because they would buy guns

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<v Speaker 1>from him, and so he ended up like this was

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the entree into what would end up being

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<v Speaker 1>his son's work with the fbis that he just knew

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<v Speaker 1>these guys as customers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And one thing I saw in there was an

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<v Speaker 2>Atavist article that was really really good, but they basically

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<v Speaker 2>said that Richard Worsch Senior he was a hustler and

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<v Speaker 2>he had a fascination with money. That was his big

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<v Speaker 2>focus in life was to make money, and his son

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<v Speaker 2>Rick definitely adopted that from him, Like he definitely got

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<v Speaker 2>that from his dad. So he didn't have a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of options to make money at the time, aside from

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<v Speaker 2>the drug trade. But he didn't really get into that

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<v Speaker 2>at least not at first. But he was still doing

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<v Speaker 2>things like breaking into houses and making money that way.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean, like he was definitely a street smart kid,

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<v Speaker 2>but he just wasn't involved in drug trafficking yet at

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<v Speaker 2>the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his sister on took up a crack habit and

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<v Speaker 1>started dating a guy named Terrence Bell, and Terrence took

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<v Speaker 1>and as you'll see, a lot of people took white

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<v Speaker 1>boy Rick under their wing. I think he was you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I've seen interviews. He seems like he was a pretty affable,

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<v Speaker 1>likable guy because it seems like he made friends everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>he went and like had these sort of older you know,

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<v Speaker 1>these are rough guys obviously, but older guys taking him

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<v Speaker 1>under the wing and sort of saying like, hey, here's

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<v Speaker 1>how you rob a house, here's how you do this.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's what Terrence Bell, he was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the first guy to do that. Taught him how to

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<v Speaker 1>rob houses, taught him how to bust cars. There was

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<v Speaker 1>this one story where someone stole their family car and

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<v Speaker 1>they went after them, and Rick at fourteen, like used

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<v Speaker 1>his sisters twenty two that she kept under purse to

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<v Speaker 1>shoot at these guys. Didn't hit anybody, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he was like in the mix at this

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<v Speaker 1>point for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell you that at fourteen, I had not

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<v Speaker 2>ever shot at anybody.

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<v Speaker 1>I had not I had shot a gun because we

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<v Speaker 1>had a friend who was a cop who had a

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<v Speaker 1>cabin in the mountains, and so he would take us

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<v Speaker 1>up there to like shoot target practice occasionally. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>that was my only gun play.

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<v Speaker 2>As a child, right, you never turned it on the guy?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, okay, yeah same here. Yeah. So let's see

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<v Speaker 2>spring of nineteen eighty four, Rick Junior is fourteen at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and the FBI, I guess who were friends

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<v Speaker 2>with senior Richard Senior, were like, you know, this guy

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<v Speaker 2>is living in East Detroit. East Detroit is a hopbed

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<v Speaker 2>of this new crack epidemic. Let's go see if this

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<v Speaker 2>guy can give us some info because we're friendly with them.

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<v Speaker 2>So they showed up at the Worsh house in East

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<v Speaker 2>Detroit and sat down with Worsh Senior Richard Senior, and

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<v Speaker 2>basically said, we just want any information you can have.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a bunch of pictures here. Can you id

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<v Speaker 2>any of these people that we've been following but don't

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<v Speaker 2>know who they are? And Richard Worsh was like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know who those people are. I'm sorry, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>help you, but Rick Jr. Piped up and he's like, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this guy is Johnny Curry or that guy's big Man Curry,

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<v Speaker 2>and just started pointing people out. And the FBI suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>was like, well, how much does this kid know. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>find out what he can tell us. And that's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of where the whole thing kicked off.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, they were interested in the Curry twins.

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<v Speaker 1>Johnny was little Man and I think you mentioned big Man.

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<v Speaker 1>That was Leo. The two brothers, even though they were twins,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess one might have been a little bigger than

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<v Speaker 1>the other. I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I couldn't make heads or tails of that either.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but they were the main drug guys on the

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<v Speaker 1>East side of Detroit at the time, and they were

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<v Speaker 1>also interested the FBI in the Curry gang because Johnny Curry,

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<v Speaker 1>who was little Man, was married to Kathy Volsen now

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<v Speaker 1>Kathy Vulson Curry or then who happened to be the

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<v Speaker 1>niece of the mayor of Detroit at the time, Coleman Young.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, we have a situation building here

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<v Speaker 1>where there there's clear kind of cover ups and corruption

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<v Speaker 1>already happening because the niece of the mayor is dating

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<v Speaker 1>like a known drug guy, and the Feds are like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we don't have any allegiance to these guys,

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<v Speaker 1>so we want to bust them.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure exactly. They wanted to take down the crooked cops. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So that connection between city Hall and the police Department

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<v Speaker 2>and the East Detroit drug trade all ran right directly

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<v Speaker 2>through Kathy Bohlsen, Right, she was the thing that connected him.

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<v Speaker 2>But after that, you know, that initial connection, the other

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<v Speaker 2>kind of tethers started to form between those two groups,

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<v Speaker 2>and before you know it, I mean, city Hall was

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<v Speaker 2>in the police department. We're in bed with the drug

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<v Speaker 2>trade in Detroit. Pretty quickly. One of the guys who

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<v Speaker 2>was a major player in this, his name was Gil Hilly.

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<v Speaker 2>He was the homicide commander, the guy in charge of

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<v Speaker 2>all homicides in Detroit. And this was a time when

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<v Speaker 2>Detroit had something like seven hundred homicides a year. Now

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<v Speaker 2>it's like one sixty five. Like that is a mind

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<v Speaker 2>boggling number of murders in Detroit, considering also that its

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<v Speaker 2>population had plummeted too. Right, Yeah, this guy's in charge

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<v Speaker 2>of all of those. His name's Gil Hill, and he

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<v Speaker 2>also popped up elsewhere too.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, I mean strange but true. He was. If

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<v Speaker 1>you've ever seen Eddie Murphy's great, great film Beverly Hills

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<v Speaker 1>Cop from nineteen eighty four, he was the inspector Todd.

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<v Speaker 1>He was the one that was always yelling at Eddie

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<v Speaker 1>Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop. And you might think, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's pretty cool, and it is pretty cool. But Gil

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<v Speaker 1>Hill was not a good dude. As we'll see. He

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<v Speaker 1>took payoffs and tried to put hits out on this kid.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, so he was on the bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff big time, big time. And he also seems to

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<v Speaker 2>have been inoperative for the mayor from what I can tell,

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<v Speaker 2>although I believe the mayor nothing ever stuck with him.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even think he was ever indicted. He seems

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<v Speaker 2>to have been well aware of all this, especially because

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<v Speaker 2>the person who the cops in city Hall and the

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<v Speaker 2>criminals connected through was his niece, who apparently he raised

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<v Speaker 2>like a daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So at the time, this kid, he's just Richard worsh Junior, Ricky.

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<v Speaker 2>I think everybody called him. He's fourteen, and the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>is sitting in his living room and they're starting to

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<v Speaker 2>show him pictures now, not his dad. His Dad's just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like, okay, so we'll have a seat and

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<v Speaker 2>show these guys what you want or what you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And so, being fourteen, Rick said that he was. He

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<v Speaker 2>was like, wow, these really important authority figures are paying

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<v Speaker 2>attention to be. Let's see what I can do. And

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<v Speaker 2>he just started pointing people out and the FBI said,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to do something a little unorthodox. I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>that's how they put it, and made scare quotes and

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<v Speaker 2>rolled their eyes at the time the right exactly, I've

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<v Speaker 2>just got the wackiest idea. But what if you, fourteen

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:07.640
<v Speaker 2>year old Rick became a federal informant for us the FBI?

0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.160
<v Speaker 2>What do you think would you like to do that?

0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:15.720
<v Speaker 2>And Rick's dad, being the amazing father figure that he was,

0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.240
<v Speaker 2>was like, well, I don't no, son, it's up to you.

0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.480
<v Speaker 2>You're fourteen. Do you want to be a federal informant

0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.640
<v Speaker 2>and put your life on the line every time you

0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>walk outside of the house? And Rick Junior said, yes,

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.480
<v Speaker 2>yes I do. And he actually became an off the

0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.840
<v Speaker 2>books informant for the FBI in nineteen eighty four, age fourteen.

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he was a CI he was not legally allowed

0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.000
<v Speaker 1>to do something like that obviously, so the FBI, like

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>you said, he kept it off the books. He was

0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.640
<v Speaker 1>never listed as the informant, but they had to have

0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:49.960
<v Speaker 1>something listed. So they said, well, can we use you dad,

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Can we use your name and have everything kind of

0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.839
<v Speaker 1>flow through you? And he said, sure, that sounds good

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.800
<v Speaker 1>to me. So Richard Senior was approved in June nineteen

0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 1>eighty four. Technic is the informant, but it was really

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.839
<v Speaker 1>his son. And pretty soon, you know, because I said,

0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Rick was a likable kid and you know, made friends easily.

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.320
<v Speaker 1>He made friends with a guy named Rudell Curry, who

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 1>was the little brother of the twins Johnny and Leo.

0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Little Boo was twenty three years old, and they they

0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 1>became buddies. Like he was a twenty three year old

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 1>with a with a fourteen year old friend who like,

0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:25.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was kind of like hey Spike, Hey Spike,

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>like one of those deals. He had this kid following

0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:32.359
<v Speaker 1>around and like they love cars and they love motorcycles

0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.120
<v Speaker 1>and they loved kind of that lifestyle. And so before

0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.679
<v Speaker 1>you know it, they were fast friends. And bo invited

0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.559
<v Speaker 1>Rick to hang out hang out with him, like right

0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>around in the in the car go to the roller rink,

0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.079
<v Speaker 1>and apparently the Johnny, one of the twins, is a

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.719
<v Speaker 1>guy who came up with the name white Boy Rick. Yeah.

0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that I gathered about a White

0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Boy Rick was that even at fourteen, fifteen sixteen, he

0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.120
<v Speaker 2>could hang with older people and ultimately eventually betray he

0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 2>did kind of like an equal Yeah. I mean, which again,

0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 2>like just stop and think that, Like that's just crazy

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 2>in and of itself, let alone the fact that this

0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 2>kid is actually a federal informant, right, that was his role.

0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.480
<v Speaker 2>That was his purpose for making friends with Bu Curry

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 2>and hanging out with the Curry gang was to get

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 2>information to give to the FBI. That's why he showed up.

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 2>And he, like you said, he was so affable and

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>could hang that they opened him. They opened their organization

0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 2>up to him, and he would be in some really

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>high level meetings. Like he knew a lot of stuff

0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.160
<v Speaker 2>that he kind of gathered over the next three four years.

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.000
<v Speaker 1>For sure. Uh, maybe that's a good time to take

0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.560
<v Speaker 1>a break. What a setup, Yeah, I think so, especially

0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.840
<v Speaker 1>if you never heard about the story, Like can you

0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 1>imagine hearing this for the first time.

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I know, I envy those people.

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>All right, So we'll be right back after this and

0:14:54.160 --> 0:15:22.280
<v Speaker 1>talk about where it's headed next stop. All right, So

0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 1>little white boy Rick is hanging out with his his

0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 1>older friends. They're doing bad stuff, and he's, you know,

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.320
<v Speaker 1>he's speeding information to the FBI that they're using like

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.320
<v Speaker 1>kind of on a smaller scale, some kind of kind

0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.840
<v Speaker 1>of lower level crimes. I wouldn't say petty crimes. Probably

0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.880
<v Speaker 1>above that level, but nothing huge. But over a couple

0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 1>of years, like they are feeding him money, like you

0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.640
<v Speaker 1>said in Act one, Like I think they said, over

0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 1>the first couple of years, they paid him about thirty

0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.400
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars off the books to you know, to use

0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 1>to buy cocaine sometimes and to you know, to make

0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 1>sure he could kind of live that lifestyle. So before

0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 1>you know it, little fourteen year old white boy Rick

0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 1>is got a fur coat and a Rolex and he's

0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.760
<v Speaker 1>he has cars even though he's fourteen years old and

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:10.320
<v Speaker 1>can't legally drive, but.

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 2>He still drove him. He had a white Jeep and

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.720
<v Speaker 2>the snowman was stintled on the back.

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah he's still into cars.

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, he has a thing for cars.

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 2>It turns out, but yeah, he made like thirty grand

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.600
<v Speaker 2>over the next two years, which is almost one hundred

0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 2>grand in today's dollars. Do you remember how much money

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 2>you made between the ages of fourteen and sixteen?

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 1>I made three twenty five an hour as a bus boy. Yeah,

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 1>that was minimum wage. I probably forty bucks a week

0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:41.720
<v Speaker 1>or something.

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I estimated I maybe made something like the

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.960
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood of two thousand dollars over those those years.

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, this is like you were hustling too.

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean I just had jobs here there, and

0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.120
<v Speaker 2>I think if you put it all together, it probably

0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 2>be pulled that over two years.

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so a thousand. I think both of us liked

0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.919
<v Speaker 1>having our own money as kids, for sure, so we

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't like my parents didn't give me money. I don't

0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:08.640
<v Speaker 1>think your parents probably gave you money the right.

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I had something of an allowed, but it dwindled as

0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.600
<v Speaker 2>I got older, Like by the time I was thirty,

0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:15.560
<v Speaker 2>it was almost nothing.

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but like I wanted to buy I wanted to

0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.240
<v Speaker 1>go to concerts for seven bucks, and I wanted to

0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.000
<v Speaker 1>buy records, and you wanted to buy cigarettes.

0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:24.920
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to buy cigarettes. I wanted to buy slim

0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.920
<v Speaker 2>gyms and twigs and Kingsbury non alcoholic pier.

0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:33.040
<v Speaker 1>It's very empowering to make money as a kid. You know,

0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that's not completely gone away. But I don't

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.440
<v Speaker 1>think teenagers have jobs these days like we did back then.

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 2>No, but you just said a mouthful chuck just having

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.680
<v Speaker 2>whatever money you make. Would you say forty bucks a week?

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, probably something like that, you know when I was

0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 1>early on.

0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, okay, and you were empowered by that by walking

0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 2>by getting that paycheck cash in it. I got forty bucks.

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm fifteen years old. Imagine having ten thousand bucks at

0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 2>the end of a week and you're fifteen years old. Yeah,

0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:08.320
<v Speaker 2>but that's how off the rails this kid's life suddenly

0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.680
<v Speaker 2>got because the FBI had pushed him into this life

0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.639
<v Speaker 2>and said, go go you know, you have some money,

0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.199
<v Speaker 2>go buy a mink coke, Go buy a Rolex. And

0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.679
<v Speaker 2>this kid could do it. And I mean just the

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.960
<v Speaker 2>fact that he is still alive, wasn't killed back then,

0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.760
<v Speaker 2>and didn't manage to kill anybody or anything like that.

0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Like he kept it together enough that like it actually

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 2>turned out about as good as it could. Although we'll

0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.919
<v Speaker 2>see that it turned out really rotten. But I don't know,

0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not quite sure how to put what I'm saying.

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.800
<v Speaker 2>It just seems like this could have gone so wrong

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>so many different ways, just from feeling like emboldened and

0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.560
<v Speaker 2>powerful and strong from all that money he had at

0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 2>that really tender age.

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. And there was no one as far

0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 1>as I could tell in the FBI that was like, hey,

0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.719
<v Speaker 1>maybe we maybe shouldn't let this kid do this. No,

0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:02.360
<v Speaker 1>because he's a.

0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Child, exactly, And his dad wasn't saying that either.

0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 2>So I want to say the impression I have of

0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:09.720
<v Speaker 2>his dad is that he was not a bad guy,

0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.640
<v Speaker 2>and he does seem to regret a lot of the

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 2>decisions he didn't make back at this time. So I

0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.159
<v Speaker 2>don't think he was like just a bad dude who

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't carry seems like he was pretty involved in his

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.359
<v Speaker 2>son's life. The problem was his son's life included, you know,

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.760
<v Speaker 2>driving a jeep that said the Snowman on back and

0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:31.840
<v Speaker 2>selling cocaine for the FBI.

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, I think what the takeaway is is

0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.720
<v Speaker 1>that ultimately his dad said, I'll right, all right.

0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:38.880
<v Speaker 2>All right, that's right.

0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:41.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm really curious to see this movie now. I wonder

0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:42.879
<v Speaker 1>how mcconaughete plays this.

0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Dude, I'm sure exactly like you just.

0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Said, because he does not scream eastside Detroit.

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 2>No, he really does.

0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.680
<v Speaker 1>All right. So you said something about him avoiding getting killed,

0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.040
<v Speaker 1>which is fairly remarkable. But he did get shot at

0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:58.920
<v Speaker 1>least once. In November of eighty four, he was shot

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.879
<v Speaker 1>in the stomach by a gang member who said it

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 1>was an accident, but Rick was like initially was like, hey,

0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 1>they found out who I am. That's why I got shot.

0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>The girlfriend of the guy who shot him called nine

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.879
<v Speaker 1>one one, and before the ambulance could get there, there

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 1>were some other gang members who showed up put in

0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.239
<v Speaker 1>the backseat of the car, and he didn't know, like,

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:21.920
<v Speaker 1>are they taking me to the hospital or again it

0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.080
<v Speaker 1>take me out and dump me in the woods, Like

0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.040
<v Speaker 1>what's going on? And perhaps so had it not been

0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 1>for that ambulance showing up and blocking the driveway and

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>saying like give that kid to us, now.

0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess that had a really like a big

0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:38.760
<v Speaker 2>chilling effect that he was ready to quit. And the

0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 2>FBI showed up at his hospital room and said just

0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.720
<v Speaker 2>keep going. They would have killed you if they actually

0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.560
<v Speaker 2>did know right. They wouldn't have let you go in

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.240
<v Speaker 2>an ambulance. You would be dead already, so just keep going.

0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.359
<v Speaker 2>And I guess he was like, I don't know, and

0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.760
<v Speaker 2>they're like, got ten grand right here, and he's like,

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.679
<v Speaker 2>all right, you guys, you know me so well. And

0:20:58.760 --> 0:20:59.840
<v Speaker 2>he got back to it.

0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And not only that, they said you can actually

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.400
<v Speaker 1>use this Rick right, like you got street cred now

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.120
<v Speaker 1>and not many people, especially your age, have been shot

0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.479
<v Speaker 1>and lived to tell about it. So like you're kind

0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 1>of a cool kid now in that and that gang.

0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 1>And he kind of was that. I mean it worked

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:18.240
<v Speaker 1>out that way. Yeah. I think in February of eighty five,

0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:19.879
<v Speaker 1>after he had been doing this a little while, is

0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.440
<v Speaker 1>when they got their first like really big raid almost

0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.359
<v Speaker 1>at Sting, but he had, you know, Rick gave him

0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.880
<v Speaker 1>information that led to about two hundred grand in cash

0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:33.879
<v Speaker 1>when they raided a house, some video equipment, obviously a

0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of cocaine and guns, like all the things you

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 1>would expect to find.

0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.119
<v Speaker 2>I saw they just had two punch bowls full of

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:40.879
<v Speaker 2>cocaine just sitting out on the table.

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Nice punch bowls are big.

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>That kind of house, that's a lot of cocaine it

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.160
<v Speaker 2>really is. Yeah. There was an FBI agent named John

0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Anthony who said that that Rick was the most productive

0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 2>informant the agency had in Detroit at the time, the

0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.399
<v Speaker 2>whole city, not just teach Detroit. This is a fifteen

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.960
<v Speaker 2>year old kid. I mean, that's a huge bus to

0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.439
<v Speaker 2>get two hundred grand and nineteen eighty five dollars and

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.400
<v Speaker 2>punch bowls of cocaine. So he becomes such an amazing

0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:13.840
<v Speaker 2>asset chuck that at one point the Curry Gang bunch

0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.560
<v Speaker 2>of other big drug dealers from Detroit were going to

0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 2>see the Marvin Hagler Tommy Hearns fight because Hearns was

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.360
<v Speaker 2>the pride of Detroit and this is a title middleweight fight,

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I believe in nineteen eighty five, the hit man, right,

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.200
<v Speaker 2>So all these Detroit drug dealers were going to watch

0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:36.360
<v Speaker 2>the match, and they invited white boy Rick, and the

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:42.200
<v Speaker 2>FBI got him like a high quality fake ID and

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.440
<v Speaker 2>paid to send him to Vegas, paid for his plane ticket,

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 2>paint for his hotel, gave him some walking around money,

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.440
<v Speaker 2>and said, go, fifteen year old, go to Las Vegas

0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.639
<v Speaker 2>with a group of high level drug dealers and just

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.320
<v Speaker 2>find out what you can. And he did.

0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, it's kids in Vegas at the Tommy Hearns fight. Yeah. Yeah,

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean the story just gets crazier. After he gets

0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:12.520
<v Speaker 1>back from Vegas, part of the Curry gang engaged in

0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.879
<v Speaker 1>a dry by shooting. It accidentally killed a thirteen year

0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 1>old boy named Damian Lucas, and the cops basically made

0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:25.359
<v Speaker 1>this investigation go away. And Rick was like it was

0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.080
<v Speaker 1>starting to kind of dawn on him because of this

0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.600
<v Speaker 1>personal tie that the Currys had with the mayor that like,

0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.480
<v Speaker 1>wait a minute, like this is now getting covered up

0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.520
<v Speaker 1>on a large scale because they've killed this kid, this

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 1>thirteen year old a couple of years younger than me,

0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:43.920
<v Speaker 1>and Johnny Curry gave Beverly Hills cop a guy ten

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.800
<v Speaker 1>grand as a bribe to cover it up. And Rick

0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:47.639
<v Speaker 1>found out about this.

0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was riding around in the car with Johnny Curry,

0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.480
<v Speaker 2>who had the who had Gil Hill Commander Gil Hill

0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:57.520
<v Speaker 2>on oh what is it called when you have it

0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.680
<v Speaker 2>on speaker? He had him on speaker and they were

0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.720
<v Speaker 2>talking about covering it up for the Curry gang, and

0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:06.359
<v Speaker 2>he did like that was a that was a big,

0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.679
<v Speaker 2>big turning point in this whole story. The murder of

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Damian Lucas.

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. So that FBI, you know, things are

0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 1>getting pretty hairy. They cut ties with him just before

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:21.080
<v Speaker 1>he turned sixteen. Richard Senior was now off the books

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.280
<v Speaker 1>as the I guess fake in formant in June of

0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:27.720
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty six, and you know, it seems pretty clear

0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.080
<v Speaker 1>that they're probably worried, like, hey, this has gone far enough.

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:32.399
<v Speaker 1>If this gets out that we've done this, it's not

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.359
<v Speaker 1>gonna look great for us as speds. And this is when,

0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, I kind of remarked earlier about how well,

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.280
<v Speaker 1>now this kid is in this lifestyle right and he's

0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:44.880
<v Speaker 1>having the cord pulled on him, like the rug pulled

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 1>out from under him. And so Rick, you know, does

0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.639
<v Speaker 1>what a kid that age and that you know, not

0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.480
<v Speaker 1>quite yet fully formed brain would do, which is, hey,

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:56.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to keep doing this stuff. So he got

0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.200
<v Speaker 1>into the real drug trade after the FBI dropped him.

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is It's disputed whether that happened after or

0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:07.359
<v Speaker 2>before they dropped him, so like during as he was

0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:10.160
<v Speaker 2>an FBI and foreman, and it seems like it's probably

0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:13.320
<v Speaker 2>there's a really good chance that it actually had happened,

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:15.680
<v Speaker 2>and that one of the reasons the FBI dropped him

0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:19.560
<v Speaker 2>was because his actual drug career was taking off quite nicely,

0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 2>and they were like, we just this kid's getting too hot.

0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Rather than being like we're gonna bring you in from

0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 2>the cold, kid, like we're gonna move you somewhere, because

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 2>we we did this to you, we need to give

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you set you up with a normal life. They just

0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.399
<v Speaker 2>walked away, like dusting their hands off and left him

0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 2>to this life and East Detroit as a what he

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:40.679
<v Speaker 2>eventually became a very prominent drug dealer.

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, all the connections he had made

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:47.240
<v Speaker 1>were valuable connections, as you know, his his I don't

0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:48.879
<v Speaker 1>won't to say legit, but I guess he was a

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 1>legit drug dealer. Yeah. One of the guys, the main

0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:54.200
<v Speaker 1>guys who kind of got him involved, was a friend

0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 1>he made through those connections with the Curries was a

0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:02.160
<v Speaker 1>wholesale cocaine guy named Art Derek. He was a suburban

0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:06.040
<v Speaker 1>dude who was operating some drug planes that were coming

0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.760
<v Speaker 1>up into Miami, and Rick became friends with him and

0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.720
<v Speaker 1>his son, and he, you know, the kid sixteen years

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.399
<v Speaker 1>old that at this point starts buying as much as

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 1>like fifty kilos at a time. As a cocaine wholesaler

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.520
<v Speaker 1>himself is what they call a weight man. Like he's

0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:25.440
<v Speaker 1>not he's not operating a ring of like dealers or

0:26:25.480 --> 0:26:28.240
<v Speaker 1>anything like that, but he's bringing in the large amounts

0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 1>and selling that stuff.

0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:33.239
<v Speaker 2>Right, which he just by that, by virtue of that,

0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.879
<v Speaker 2>he automatically made less money. I saw FBI agent estimate

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:40.000
<v Speaker 2>he was probably making five thousand dollars off a key,

0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:42.480
<v Speaker 2>but he was selling tons and tons of keys, so

0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:45.360
<v Speaker 2>he was making like really significant money. But you could

0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:48.119
<v Speaker 2>also take a single key and turned it into a

0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:52.200
<v Speaker 2>million dollars, broken down into like and converted into five

0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 2>dollars hits of crack if you were willing to do

0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.160
<v Speaker 2>all that. That's what the chamber Brothers did. Those guys

0:26:57.160 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 2>who took over the apartment building. They made an estimated

0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:04.200
<v Speaker 2>fifty five million dollars a year doing that. But I mean,

0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:07.720
<v Speaker 2>like wipe boy. Rick was later implicated as being one

0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:11.359
<v Speaker 2>of the people who supplied the chamber Brothers with their cocaine,

0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:15.440
<v Speaker 2>like he became a wholesale coke dealer. That's not necessarily true,

0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 2>but he definitely did supply plenty of people with their

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.199
<v Speaker 2>cocaine as a wholesale coke dealer. And one of the

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 2>things that he didn't do this to me really stands out.

0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:26.399
<v Speaker 2>He hung with the Curries, but he never became a

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Curry soldier. He never became a Curry drug dealer. He

0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:33.600
<v Speaker 2>had his own operation essentially going on where he sold

0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:37.320
<v Speaker 2>keys to other people, and he was just basically an

0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 2>associate of the Curries, which I thought was super cool,

0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.159
<v Speaker 2>like he just kept his own identity rather than just

0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:45.880
<v Speaker 2>being absorbed into the Curry gang.

0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:49.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, he ended up getting some of the Curry

0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:52.440
<v Speaker 1>brothers in trouble just from all the information they had

0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:56.239
<v Speaker 1>fed you know, the FBI. Over the years, they were

0:27:56.240 --> 0:27:59.160
<v Speaker 1>starting to make arrest I think in eighty seven they

0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:02.639
<v Speaker 1>indicted the at least the twins and some other people

0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:06.640
<v Speaker 1>in their organization and they pleaded guilty at the time

0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:10.959
<v Speaker 1>to drugs and racketeering. Obviously, they kept it quiet about

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:13.399
<v Speaker 1>the city government at that point. They were still like

0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 1>not selling out, like the mayor and the corrupt cops,

0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:19.680
<v Speaker 1>and the city was like great, We're like we need

0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 1>to keep it this way. And I think that's when

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:26.760
<v Speaker 1>we found out about Gil Hill, Beverly Hills cop Gil

0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Hill trying to get this guy, Nate boone Craft to

0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:34.639
<v Speaker 1>assassinate little white boy Rick. I think he offered him

0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:36.720
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty five grand and he tried to

0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:38.800
<v Speaker 1>kill him a couple of times.

0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know that you've arrived. If you're sixteen years

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:44.880
<v Speaker 2>old and you're not going to be murdered, you're going

0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:47.840
<v Speaker 2>to be assassinated. That means you know a lot.

0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:51.160
<v Speaker 1>And the guy from Beverly Hills cop was the one

0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:52.120
<v Speaker 1>making the call.

0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, It's like, who would ever believe this? Right?

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:59.600
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, Nate Boonecraft later admitted to trying on two

0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:03.520
<v Speaker 2>different occasions to carry out that hit.

0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:08.840
<v Speaker 1>So Rick is trying to capitalize on, you know, the

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:11.720
<v Speaker 1>curries now suddenly being not completely out of the picture,

0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:13.440
<v Speaker 1>but at least some of the main guys being rounded

0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:16.440
<v Speaker 1>up and kind of feel devoid the drug void that

0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:20.080
<v Speaker 1>that was left by them. And he starts dating Kathy Volson.

0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:24.720
<v Speaker 1>She was twenty four, he was seventeen. He was making

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.360
<v Speaker 1>about thirty grand a month and has three kids at

0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:28.840
<v Speaker 1>this point.

0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I don't know if they were all with her.

0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they were, but I think his firstborn,

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Keisha was And the fact that Kathy Volson started dating him.

0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:44.360
<v Speaker 2>You said that, you know, he was a legit drug dealers,

0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:47.080
<v Speaker 2>as legit as a drug dealer can be. She helped

0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:50.959
<v Speaker 2>legitimize him like she is a and she was, especially

0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:54.400
<v Speaker 2>at this time, a big, big deal in East Detroit,

0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:57.520
<v Speaker 2>and all of a sudden like this essentially like East

0:29:57.520 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Detroit royalty, like criminal royalty. He comes down, is like,

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:04.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna start dating you now, white boy Rick, and

0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:08.360
<v Speaker 2>she she essentially like just put that seal of approval

0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:10.440
<v Speaker 2>on him that that just kind of really gave him

0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:11.959
<v Speaker 2>a certain luster in that area.

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and presumably did not get arrested herself for you know,

0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:19.640
<v Speaker 1>having sex with an underage kid.

0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 2>No, no, I think they had other things in mind.

0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:26.000
<v Speaker 2>But even still, she she would not have gotten arrested

0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:28.840
<v Speaker 2>because she had Detroit p D keeping tabs on her

0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:32.400
<v Speaker 2>as protection, because the mayor had ordered the DPD to

0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.280
<v Speaker 2>constantly surveil her to make sure she was okay, not

0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.240
<v Speaker 2>to catch her with anything, in fact, to look the

0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.120
<v Speaker 2>other way on it. So she can essentially do anything

0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:44.040
<v Speaker 2>she wanted to, and it would have been fine.

0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 1>For her for sure. All Right, Well, let's take our

0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:48.920
<v Speaker 1>second break and we'll finish up with the saga of

0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 1>White Boy Rick.

0:30:49.720 --> 0:31:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Right after this, yes, okay, chuck, So the party ends.

0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 2>On May twenty second, nineteen eighty seven, the Detroit police

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.320
<v Speaker 2>decide that Rick needs to go down. If Nate Boonecraft

0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:30.360
<v Speaker 2>can't kill him, we're just gonna do it the old

0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:33.040
<v Speaker 2>fashioned way and arrest him and just block him up.

0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:38.560
<v Speaker 2>And they found thirty grand in cash in his car.

0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:43.000
<v Speaker 2>They also found eight keys of cocaine that was stashed

0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:46.800
<v Speaker 2>under a neighbor's porch that Rick said, yeah, that's mine. Yeah,

0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.800
<v Speaker 2>he was seventeen, so he's still a juvenile. And he

0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.080
<v Speaker 2>got arrested with eight keys and thirty grand in cash.

0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:56.760
<v Speaker 2>He made bail, and then a few months later, in October,

0:31:56.840 --> 0:31:59.160
<v Speaker 2>he was arrested again, this time with five kilos of

0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 2>cocaine and guns, drug paraphernalia, the whole thing even worse.

0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Some of this stuff was found in his dad's house

0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and his grandparents' house, which means they could have gone

0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 2>to prison, lost their houses like they really had them.

0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:14.120
<v Speaker 2>If they didn't have him in May, they really had

0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 2>him in October, right, And so around about this time,

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:22.240
<v Speaker 2>the name white Boy Rick becomes much more widely known,

0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 2>not just in East Detroit, but in Detroit as a whole,

0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:28.480
<v Speaker 2>and then very quickly across the nation because it was

0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:32.520
<v Speaker 2>such a crazy novelty. Yeah, that there was this seventeen

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:36.880
<v Speaker 2>year old white kid who was essentially the only white

0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.320
<v Speaker 2>kid in East Detroit's drug trade and seemed to be

0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty powerful. And in fact, the media, in particular Chris

0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Hansen really what's the word I'm looking for, I don't know,

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:55.520
<v Speaker 2>fraudulently inflated the importance of white boy Rick, like right

0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 2>out of the gate, just because it was so novel.

0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, you know, the it's the media, and

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:04.280
<v Speaker 1>that's what the media does, so they, Yeah, it was

0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:08.840
<v Speaker 1>very sensationalized. You know, this stuff obviously happened, but it's like, hey,

0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:12.720
<v Speaker 1>let's run, you know, another sort of injustice basically was like, hey,

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:14.640
<v Speaker 1>let's run with his story because this is a kid

0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 1>and it'll you know, there weren't clicks at the time,

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:20.400
<v Speaker 1>but like it'll get views or whatever on our on

0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:24.040
<v Speaker 1>our station and in our newspaper. So it was a

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:27.720
<v Speaker 1>big sort of sensational trial. When he finally was brought

0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:32.480
<v Speaker 1>forward the following January, and at the beginning the Feds

0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 1>met with Rick and his dad and his mom are like, Hey,

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.240
<v Speaker 1>if you want to testify and turn state's evidence against

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:44.360
<v Speaker 1>this everybody, basically, you can do that and we're gonna,

0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:47.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, we can help you out. And he was like, dude,

0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:50.560
<v Speaker 1>I would get killed so fast, your head would spend

0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 1>so no, thank.

0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>You, right, yeah, So he passed on that. He was like,

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna I'm gonna see what I can do with

0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.840
<v Speaker 2>the jury. He actually felt pretty good about his chances

0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:02.480
<v Speaker 2>because they hadn't found the eight keys on him. They

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:04.600
<v Speaker 2>found it under a neighbor's porch. Like there were all

0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 2>sorts of extenuating circumstances. The problem was he had the

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:11.160
<v Speaker 2>full force and weight of Detroit City Hall and the

0:34:11.200 --> 0:34:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Detroit Police Department against him. In every back channel you

0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:17.080
<v Speaker 2>can imagine in the city at that time. They were

0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:20.520
<v Speaker 2>working to get him convicted as badly as he could

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:25.799
<v Speaker 2>be convicted. The media wasn't helping somebody. I think Chris

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Hansen again, he started in Detroit. He would go on

0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 2>to be the to Catch a predator guy. They showed

0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.520
<v Speaker 2>an org chart which showed all of the city's biggest

0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:39.239
<v Speaker 2>drug dealers, and guess who was at the very top.

0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:43.759
<v Speaker 2>The kingpin they portrayed as the guy who supplied all

0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:46.879
<v Speaker 2>of the big drug dealers in Detroit. Why no other

0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>than white boy Rick, Because remember they were trying to

0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:52.480
<v Speaker 2>really kind of make this even more sensational than it

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:56.640
<v Speaker 2>already was, so they just said, well, this guy's actually

0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the guy. Can you believe that? And that did not

0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:02.479
<v Speaker 2>help his chances either, because he started to be seen

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:06.359
<v Speaker 2>as if there's a crack epidemic in Detroit, this guy

0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:08.600
<v Speaker 2>is ground zero for the problem.

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:13.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. They did not disclose in the trial

0:35:13.320 --> 0:35:15.759
<v Speaker 1>at any point that he was a federal informant that

0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.800
<v Speaker 1>he was a CI. He said later, like, you know,

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Rix talked a lot about this over the years, but

0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:25.000
<v Speaker 1>he later claimed that he was that the lawyers that

0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:29.000
<v Speaker 1>they assigned him the public defenders were connected to the mayor,

0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:31.680
<v Speaker 1>who obviously was kind of trying to make all this

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.280
<v Speaker 1>go away and cover up for everything on his family side,

0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:37.960
<v Speaker 1>and was like, hey, lock this kid away basically, and

0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:41.400
<v Speaker 1>make sure these lawyers make sure that happen one of

0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:43.400
<v Speaker 1>those And you know that hasn't been proven, but this

0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:45.759
<v Speaker 1>is what Rick said, makes a lot of sense. And

0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.040
<v Speaker 1>one of those lawyers that was on his quote unquote

0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:53.320
<v Speaker 1>team went on to fight his parole in two thousand

0:35:53.320 --> 0:35:55.319
<v Speaker 1>and three. So that kind of says it all.

0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 2>It really does. Yeah, that's not good defense right there.

0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 2>The judge who convicted him said that he was worse

0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:07.920
<v Speaker 2>than a mass murderer during his sentencing, I believe, And

0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:10.200
<v Speaker 2>even if the judge hadn't wanted to do this, she

0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:15.520
<v Speaker 2>had no choice. He was given life in prison without

0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:19.240
<v Speaker 2>parole at age seventeen. And the reason why the judge

0:36:19.239 --> 0:36:24.840
<v Speaker 2>had no choice is because about ten years earlier, Michigan

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.640
<v Speaker 2>had passed a law called the six fifty Lifer Law,

0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.720
<v Speaker 2>where if you were caught with six hundred and fifty

0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:34.040
<v Speaker 2>grams or more of cocaine, which is about one and

0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 2>a half pounds or a little under half of a kilo,

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:42.239
<v Speaker 2>you got a life sentence without parole, no questions asked.

0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:44.600
<v Speaker 2>If you were convicted of that, you went to prison

0:36:44.920 --> 0:36:49.160
<v Speaker 2>for life. And this kid was seventeen and got that

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:51.480
<v Speaker 2>sentence and was told that he was worse than a

0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:55.359
<v Speaker 2>mass murderer. So things were not looking very good for

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.439
<v Speaker 2>him when he was sentenced. After he was convicted, Yeah,

0:36:59.480 --> 0:36:59.799
<v Speaker 2>for sure.

0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 1>It was a period in a country where mandatory minimums

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:05.160
<v Speaker 1>were kind of popping up all over the place for

0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:07.399
<v Speaker 1>what it's worth The governor who signed that one said

0:37:07.440 --> 0:37:10.120
<v Speaker 1>it was the greatest mistake of his career. Probably didn't

0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:15.040
<v Speaker 1>make Rick feel much better. But after the trial, Matthew

0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:19.959
<v Speaker 1>McConaughey is giving interviews and he's basically saying, like, hey,

0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.920
<v Speaker 1>we were federal informants. My son at fourteen was a

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:27.600
<v Speaker 1>federal informant. But at this point, like this wasn't disclosed

0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:29.560
<v Speaker 1>in the trial or anything, so everyone thinks it's just

0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:33.040
<v Speaker 1>this dad kind of ranting this crazy talk. No one's

0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.440
<v Speaker 1>taking him seriously. They didn't have any kind of credibility.

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:42.120
<v Speaker 1>And in nineteen ninety one, in prison, Rick starts working

0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:45.879
<v Speaker 1>for the FEDS again from prison in an operation called

0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Operation Backbone.

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Right. One of the FBI agents who had worked with

0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:52.920
<v Speaker 2>him before, I think he was the first one who

0:37:53.040 --> 0:37:55.840
<v Speaker 2>turned Rick into an informant at age fourteen's name is

0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:58.719
<v Speaker 2>Greg Schwartz. He came to him years later for this

0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Operation Backbone and said, we've been listening in to the

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Curries for years now, and we are it's quite clear

0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:09.360
<v Speaker 2>that they are in bed with the Detroit Police Department

0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:12.040
<v Speaker 2>and City Hall and it's time for us to take

0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:16.200
<v Speaker 2>them down. We need your help. So he and Kathy

0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:20.839
<v Speaker 2>Vohlsen were they'd broken up, but they remained friendly and

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:23.920
<v Speaker 2>she would visit him in prison pretty regularly. So because

0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:28.360
<v Speaker 2>she was the thing that everything centered on, he basically

0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:35.000
<v Speaker 2>used her to infect the drug and city hall connection

0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>with a DEA agent I'm sorry, FBI agent who went

0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:46.160
<v Speaker 2>under cover and carried out like this highly successful operation Backbone.

0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was a big They got eleven cops. Other

0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:52.600
<v Speaker 1>people obviously were arrested, but they got, you know, eleven

0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:57.000
<v Speaker 1>crooked cops out of that. One of them was, I mean,

0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.120
<v Speaker 1>several of them were like kind of in the Mayor

0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Young's inner circle. I think his favorite bodyguard was implicated.

0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:10.400
<v Speaker 1>His brother in law, who was Kathy Bolson's father, was implicated,

0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:13.400
<v Speaker 1>and she was he been implicated at first and initially charged,

0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:15.360
<v Speaker 1>but the charges on her were dropped.

0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. One of the things I saw, Chuck,

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:23.239
<v Speaker 2>that one of the cops the Detroit cops did, was

0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:26.600
<v Speaker 2>asked to do as part of this sting, was to

0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>carry an assault rifle around airport security so that it

0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.239
<v Speaker 2>could be taken aboard a plane to be used in

0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:35.200
<v Speaker 2>a hit in Chicago. And he did it. Like that's

0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:38.440
<v Speaker 2>how dirty the cops were and the FBI was the one.

0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:40.880
<v Speaker 2>They were the ones setting him up because this undercover

0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:45.040
<v Speaker 2>agent has totally infiltrated this group. Because white Boy Rick

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.239
<v Speaker 2>vouched for him over and over again and introduced him

0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:52.160
<v Speaker 2>to Kathy Wolson Curry, who kind of tacitly vouched for

0:39:52.239 --> 0:39:54.800
<v Speaker 2>him too. It was about as great of an operation

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:57.520
<v Speaker 2>as you could hope for if you're an FBI person.

0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:00.480
<v Speaker 2>The mayor almost came very he came very close to

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:05.640
<v Speaker 2>going down to he didn't. And yet despite all this cooperation,

0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:08.200
<v Speaker 2>despite all the stuff he had done for the FBI

0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:11.759
<v Speaker 2>up to this point, he could not get paroled to

0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:12.760
<v Speaker 2>save his life.

0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:16.040
<v Speaker 1>No, I think you know you said it was about

0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:17.839
<v Speaker 1>it went about as well as it could. I think

0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:21.560
<v Speaker 1>it quite didn't because or didn't quite because they they

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:23.560
<v Speaker 1>would have loved to have gotten the mayor, and they

0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:26.360
<v Speaker 1>would have loved to have gotten the higher ups in

0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.239
<v Speaker 1>the police department. They ended up getting, you know, rank

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:32.719
<v Speaker 1>and file cops. They didn't get Gil Hill. They had

0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:36.680
<v Speaker 1>a literally like Rick testified, like, hey, I heard a

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.000
<v Speaker 1>phone call where Beverly that guy from Beverly Hills cop

0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.000
<v Speaker 1>agreed to cover up that kid's killing from the drive

0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:46.400
<v Speaker 1>by shooting and he was never charged, so you know,

0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 1>they they didn't get the big fish, but they certainly

0:40:49.560 --> 0:40:52.399
<v Speaker 1>got enough people. I think this was not too long

0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:56.720
<v Speaker 1>after the Mary and Barry scandal smoking crack as a mayor,

0:40:57.360 --> 0:40:59.160
<v Speaker 1>like a high profile mayor, and I think there was

0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:01.520
<v Speaker 1>a lot of just like, hey, we don't need another

0:41:01.719 --> 0:41:05.799
<v Speaker 1>scandal of another high profile mayor in this country, like

0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:06.840
<v Speaker 1>doing the wrong thing, right.

0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:13.040
<v Speaker 2>So Greg Schwartz actually he showed up. He said, Okay,

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.640
<v Speaker 2>you helped us out. It was good enough for us

0:41:15.640 --> 0:41:17.799
<v Speaker 2>to reward you. So we're going to move you to

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.239
<v Speaker 2>a medium security prison in Florida, and we're going to

0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:24.120
<v Speaker 2>basically put you under witness protection under an assumed name.

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:28.840
<v Speaker 2>And while he was there in Florida, this was I

0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:30.600
<v Speaker 2>think up to the two thousands, so he was in

0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:34.439
<v Speaker 2>Florida for a while. He was just doing his thing.

0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:37.919
<v Speaker 2>And remember we talked about how much he loved cars. Well,

0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>he was caught running or at least participating in a

0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 2>car theft ring, a stolen car ring. From prison, he

0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:48.480
<v Speaker 2>was helping coordinate the whole thing. And that's tough to

0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:53.000
<v Speaker 2>do and not get caught because eventually your conversation is

0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.400
<v Speaker 2>going to be overheard. Or listened to, and you're going

0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:57.359
<v Speaker 2>to get in trouble, and that's exactly what happened. They

0:41:57.360 --> 0:41:59.919
<v Speaker 2>got him on racketeering charges in two thousand and five.

0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:03.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that lands him back in Michigan in prison,

0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:06.840
<v Speaker 1>and this whole time, White boy Rick is in prison

0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:10.080
<v Speaker 1>for you know, decades. At this point, h and everyone

0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:13.440
<v Speaker 1>else that he was had been you know, associating with,

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:17.120
<v Speaker 1>was getting out. Johnny Curry got out ninety nine, that

0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:20.360
<v Speaker 1>hitman that tried to kill him twice and admitted to

0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:25.200
<v Speaker 1>murdering thirty people, did seventeen years and then cooperated with

0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:29.640
<v Speaker 1>the cops. That mandatory minimum that sent him the six

0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:32.799
<v Speaker 1>fifty lifer that was overturned by the Michigan Supreme Court

0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.920
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety eight, and everyone else that had been

0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:39.560
<v Speaker 1>impacted by that law ended up free within six years.

0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:43.840
<v Speaker 1>But Rick stayed in prison. He just kept getting denied parole.

0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.359
<v Speaker 1>I think the first one was in two thousand and three.

0:42:47.760 --> 0:42:49.440
<v Speaker 1>He asked, like, you know, some of the Feds that

0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:50.880
<v Speaker 1>he was working with to help him out, and they

0:42:50.880 --> 0:42:54.239
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't do it. One of the guys that he had

0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:58.319
<v Speaker 1>worked with, a guy named Herman Groman, basically was like,

0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:00.360
<v Speaker 1>all right, I'll tell him about Operation back Bone, and

0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:02.280
<v Speaker 1>he helped us out with that, but not the stuff

0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:03.320
<v Speaker 1>from when you were fourteen.

0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the problem is like none of that was ever

0:43:06.640 --> 0:43:10.160
<v Speaker 2>going to help because white boy Rick had broken a

0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:13.440
<v Speaker 2>really big rule by ratting out on cops. He was

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 2>smart enough to not read out his drug dealer friends,

0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:18.799
<v Speaker 2>but he definitely read it out on the cops, and

0:43:18.880 --> 0:43:21.000
<v Speaker 2>the cops went to great links to make sure he

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:23.680
<v Speaker 2>stayed in prison, to make an example out of him,

0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:26.359
<v Speaker 2>and to punish him too. And so, in a really

0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:30.719
<v Speaker 2>unusual move, a bunch of Detroit police officers went to

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:34.360
<v Speaker 2>his two thousand and three parole hearing and basically just lied,

0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>lied about what a horrible criminally was, like what a

0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:40.840
<v Speaker 2>terrible effect he had on Detroit, and how he really

0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:44.399
<v Speaker 2>needed to stay in prison, and he got denied, got

0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:47.160
<v Speaker 2>denied again in two thousand and eight, and he got

0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:49.399
<v Speaker 2>denied again in twenty twelve too.

0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:54.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that Greg Schwartz, the FED this time, actually wrote

0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:58.680
<v Speaker 1>a letter saying like, hey, he did a lot of

0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:02.640
<v Speaker 1>stuff with us. Actually it wasn't just Operation Backbone, that

0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.799
<v Speaker 1>Damian Lucas murder. He tried to help us out with that.

0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:08.920
<v Speaker 1>That thirteen year old kid who got killed. And he said,

0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, we never disclosed this stuff because he was

0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:14.480
<v Speaker 1>a kid, and we would have been exposed and embarrassed

0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:16.480
<v Speaker 1>at the federal government was working with a kid in

0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 1>this capacity. They rejected that one too, even though we

0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:23.640
<v Speaker 1>finally had someone willing to vouch for him. And until

0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:27.760
<v Speaker 1>twenty thirteen, there wasn't a lot of I mean, aside

0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:30.320
<v Speaker 1>from just you know, the earlier time when he actually

0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:33.680
<v Speaker 1>got sent to prison, it had really quieted down about

0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:35.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, white boy Rick, like no one kind of

0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.120
<v Speaker 1>knew who he was. And then in twenty thirteen that

0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 1>there was a guy named Seth Ferranti who was an

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:44.120
<v Speaker 1>incarcerated journalist. He wrote a column at The Fix that

0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:45.920
<v Speaker 1>reported a lot of this stuff, and then that was

0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:50.160
<v Speaker 1>picked up by Evan Hughes who wrote that Adams article

0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:52.000
<v Speaker 1>in twenty fifteen that you were talking about that we

0:44:52.040 --> 0:44:55.520
<v Speaker 1>read and that was like that was it, all of

0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:58.839
<v Speaker 1>a sudden, it was fully out there. Like he didn't

0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:00.759
<v Speaker 1>even get k Goto's dad's funeral. His dad died while

0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:04.799
<v Speaker 1>he was in prison. And he has like six grandchildren

0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:08.719
<v Speaker 1>at this point in his forties, which is remarkable, and

0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:10.800
<v Speaker 1>he's like not met these kids at this point.

0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:14.719
<v Speaker 2>No, so one thing that makes it like really kind

0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 2>of gets across. How how just under the thumb of

0:45:19.800 --> 0:45:24.080
<v Speaker 2>the Detroit Police Department, this kid was still decades on.

0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:28.839
<v Speaker 2>A judge, Judge Dana Hathaway, I think she was the

0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:33.319
<v Speaker 2>original judge in his in his trial, she threw out

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the life sentence as a judge, right, this wasn't something

0:45:36.200 --> 0:45:38.480
<v Speaker 2>she did in her leisure time. Like, she officially threw

0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:42.640
<v Speaker 2>out his life sentence, and prosecutors appealed and won. So

0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:48.640
<v Speaker 2>he had his life sentence like was upheld what thirty

0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:52.479
<v Speaker 2>years later and Hathaway even went on the record saying

0:45:52.520 --> 0:45:55.759
<v Speaker 2>that this whole thing was very fishy. Finally, two years later,

0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:59.240
<v Speaker 2>he's granted parole. This is thirteen years after the last

0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:02.680
<v Speaker 2>person who was given a life sentence under that Michigan

0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 2>six point fifty life for law had already been led out.

0:46:05.600 --> 0:46:08.880
<v Speaker 2>He was the only one, and his incarceration continued for

0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:12.399
<v Speaker 2>thirteen more years. He got out in twenty seventeen, age

0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:14.840
<v Speaker 2>forty seven. And you would think that would be the

0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:16.600
<v Speaker 2>end of the story, Chuck, But it was not.

0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:23.279
<v Speaker 1>Wasn't. No, he gets that parole and probably or at

0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:25.920
<v Speaker 1>least maybe had something to do with those movies that

0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:29.840
<v Speaker 1>we were talking about the documentary in the Matthew McConaughey movie,

0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.719
<v Speaker 1>because certainly high profile enough to like bring his name

0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:36.320
<v Speaker 1>back into the forefront and then people start asking questions

0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:39.759
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that at FED but he had to

0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:44.560
<v Speaker 1>stay or I guess, got recentence from the prison sentence

0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:47.520
<v Speaker 1>in Florida for that stolen car stuff. So he's back

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.399
<v Speaker 1>in jail in Florida. He was, you know, bouncing back

0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:52.760
<v Speaker 1>and forth. Finally released from there in July twenty twenty.

0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I think he was fifty one at the time, and

0:46:55.800 --> 0:46:57.799
<v Speaker 1>was like, I need some money, I need some restitution,

0:46:57.840 --> 0:47:01.520
<v Speaker 1>and he sued the Feds of he didn't get anything.

0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:04.440
<v Speaker 2>No, the judge said the statute of limitations had run

0:47:04.440 --> 0:47:06.240
<v Speaker 2>out in two thousand and six, and he's like, well,

0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:08.640
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't really say anything while I was in jail

0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:10.560
<v Speaker 2>because I would have gotten beaten up on a daily

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:13.560
<v Speaker 2>basis by the guards. And they said, sorry, Paal, like

0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:17.400
<v Speaker 2>none of your your very legitimate suits against the federal

0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:21.800
<v Speaker 2>government are going to be able to be tried. So yeah.

0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Apparently he's working on his own documentary project about his

0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:28.280
<v Speaker 2>life too. With the hip hop director Hype Williams.

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I worked with Hype back in the day.

0:47:31.880 --> 0:47:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, is he related to Freedom Williams?

0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea Bute was one of the biggest

0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:40.960
<v Speaker 1>names in the game back then. Oh yeah, I'll tell

0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:41.440
<v Speaker 1>you off, Mike.

0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:46.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I can't I can't wait to hear this. Okay, Well,

0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:48.760
<v Speaker 2>since I want to hurry up and end this episode

0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:50.200
<v Speaker 2>because I want to hear what Chuck has to say

0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.080
<v Speaker 2>about Hype Williams, I think it's time for listener mail.

0:47:56.440 --> 0:47:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Instead of listener mail, we're going to give issue one last,

0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:01.800
<v Speaker 1>well not one last, but another reminder about our voyage,

0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:04.719
<v Speaker 1>our Stuff at Sea voyage aboard the Valiant Lady of

0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:10.160
<v Speaker 1>Virgin Cruises, which will take place October second through seventh.

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Where are we going.

0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.080
<v Speaker 1>We're going from New York City to Bermuda, and we're

0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:15.759
<v Speaker 1>gonna be doing our live show and we're gonna be

0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:19.719
<v Speaker 1>with our buddies from stuff they don't want you to

0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:22.359
<v Speaker 1>know and stuff Mom never told you, and we're gonna

0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:24.440
<v Speaker 1>be doing like other events on board. It's gonna be

0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:24.759
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fun.

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can go to Virgin Voyages dot com slash

0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:31.799
<v Speaker 2>Stuff at Sea and start booking passage today. That's what

0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:34.759
<v Speaker 2>they call it on the high seats Booking passage and

0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:37.239
<v Speaker 2>come float around with us for five days. It'll be fun,

0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:38.399
<v Speaker 2>that's right.

0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:40.319
<v Speaker 1>Can't wait, can't.

0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:42.239
<v Speaker 2>Wait, and we also can't wait to hear from you

0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>via email, which you can send to Stuff podcast at

0:48:46.440 --> 0:48:50.840
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0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:58.120
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite show