1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Today was all about how they discovered the final victim 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: and in his body, that's Kenneth Rodin, and it included 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: a tense confrontation between Kenneth Roden's son and the man 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: on trial and accused of taking part in the murder 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: of his father six years ago. You were going over 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: there to tell him what happened. Correct, Yeah, we went 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: inside then that's when we found out that Hey to deceased. 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about the Wagers? My thoughts about 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the Wagoners. I hope the Yeah, everything comes to this 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: is the Pikes and Massacre returned to Pike County season four, 11 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: episode five, Morning at the Church. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidaker and Jeff Shane. 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Stephanie and I are currently in Pike County. All right, 14 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: So here we are right the courthouse in Waverley. The 15 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: courthouse is not as busy as it was when court 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: proceedings began. Now it's mostly media and the victim's family members. 17 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: It's important to note that George Wagner, the fourth currently 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: on trial, has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial 20 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. 21 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: Today's testimony centered around the events leading up to the 22 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: discovery of Kenneth Roden's body. He was found by his cousin, 23 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Donald Stone, and was the last of the victims to 24 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: be discovered. Here's Donald on the stand. How do you 25 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: know Kenneth Roden? Here's my cousin, his mother and my 26 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: father with us and chisters. Some cousins are closed, some aren't. 27 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Would you consider yourself to have been close to Kenneth? 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: Real quick? Okay, and tell us about that. Just you know, 29 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: anytime that I was down and out, the man was 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: there to help me. Their mother fed me when I 31 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: was young, and they're just helpful people. Donald Stone is 32 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: understandably emotional in the witness chair. How did you learn 33 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: that something had happened up on Union Hill Road? Well, 34 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: I was a ahod appointment that morning. I had talked 35 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: to a gentleman while I was there, and he asked 36 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: me if I heard what happened on Union Hill and 37 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: I got word that there were some people meeting at 38 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: a church. So you went to the church on Union 39 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: Hill Road, and who was there. It's just there is 40 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people there. Family, I mean, there was 41 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people there. Okay. At what point did 42 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: you learn how many had been killed on Union Hill Road? 43 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: Actually I had a note at the time how many 44 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: there were? For sure. You indicated that you tried to 45 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: call Kenneth that one time, and that was from your 46 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: home after an appointment, Yes, okay. Did you personally ever 47 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: try to call Kenneth after that? Yes, well it was 48 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: when I tried to make the phone calls. I did 49 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: try to call him once, okay. And while you were 50 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: at the church, did there become some concerns about Kenneth 51 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: not responding to phone calls? Yeah, okay. And can you 52 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: tell us did you decide to go to Kenneth's its 53 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: own point? Yeah. We was at the church and Luke 54 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that he wanted to go to his dad's place, 55 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: and he asked me if I wanted to go, and 56 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: we went. Here's Stephanie and I speaking about the testimony 57 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: thus far. It's pretty powerful to be there. I also 58 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: didn't realize that Donald Stone was not alone when he 59 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: discovered Kenneth's body. I didn't realize Kenneth's son Luke was 60 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: also present. I didn't know that either. I didn't know 61 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: that either until today. How painful that must have been. Next, 62 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Antikineppa begins the difficult process of walking the cousins through 63 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: the discovery of Kenneth Roden's body. Here again, Donald Stone. 64 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: We got there, We got out of the car. We 65 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: walked up to the door, me and Luke, and once 66 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: we got to the door, I told him, I said, 67 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: this is your dad's place. You need to go in. 68 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: First we walked into the supposedly the living room, and 69 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: I noticed to the right, I didn't see him in 70 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: there nowhere, So I've seen a stairway to the right, 71 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: and I walked up the stairway and I found him. 72 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: And when you say you sound him, I found Can 73 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: you tell us what condition you sound him in? Yead? 74 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: But resides? And where was he located? And okay, he 75 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: is dead. Was it just you that walked up those 76 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: stairs and saw Kenneth? Yes, it was significant, just being 77 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: in the courtroom and being close to family members. Kenneth 78 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: Roden is one of the victims that we really have 79 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: known the least about. We know that he's a father, 80 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: we know that he lived by himself, and that he 81 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: was extremely close with Chris Senior. Seeing these crime scene photos, 82 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: it was pretty excruciating. I believe what struck me so 83 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: much the courtroom is it's cliche, but how very different 84 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: it is seeing these actual photos versus anything you see 85 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: when you watch TV or a movie. Just the stark 86 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: lack of life in these photos was so impactful and 87 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: felt so permanent. We were sitting just feet away from 88 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: Kenneth's family members and for them, I cannot imagine how 89 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: excruciating it was for them to have to see that, 90 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: and imagine being Luke, this is his father. He had 91 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: to see his father's body and this was a violent crime. 92 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: So the trauma that they've been through just seeing a 93 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: dead body, let alone of somebody you love so deeply, 94 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: and for them to have to get up there and 95 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: relive it step by step by step, the bravery it took, 96 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would be able to find 97 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: that level of courage. Because Donald Stone identified the body, 98 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: CANEPA had no choice but to have him relive the 99 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: dramatic events through crime scene photos showing you what's been 100 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: marked as D one eighty two of Flies Too. Do 101 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: you recognize that Soto. Yes, and can you tell us 102 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: what you recognize that? As he breaks down here and 103 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: grabs more tissues. Canepa, knowing this is horrible, prefaces each 104 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: question with an apology. Sorry? And is that how you 105 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: saw Kenneth Lyin in his bed and you entered that? Yes? 106 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: D waits too applies, mister Stone, can you look at that? 107 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: I'm sorry? What do you recognize that as? Gee? And 108 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: is that how you saw him on that day? Yes? 109 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: And you indicated that he had Does that imagine recollection 110 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 1: of the blood that you saw him? Yes? Okay. Here's 111 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 1: James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. 112 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: Everybody knows in Pike County how these people died. I 113 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: would say they are trying to shock the jury at 114 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: this point with the violence of it, for sure, because 115 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: they show the pictures of people dead in their beds 116 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: or on the floor time and time and time again. 117 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: The trial is reopening wounds that may have only just 118 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: begun to heal. Traveling with us is investigative journalist Jeff Winkler, 119 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: who you'll remember in previous seasons. It was his article 120 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: about the Rodent family that first peaked our interest in 121 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: the case. He's joined us for several trips to Pike 122 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: County over the years. I think that's the weirdest thing 123 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: is going into the courthouse as the trial is going 124 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: starting for George and the family's still there, still grieving, 125 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: still having the same kind of grief and trauma, and 126 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: then seeing the family having just basically stuck in time 127 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: of pain. Can you imagine, though, the level of grief 128 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: and despair even just to have to sit there and 129 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: look at these photos, which I my dad were pretty 130 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: graphic and we've never actually seen those before. I think 131 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: that's what struck me walking there today was just the 132 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been six years, you know, so you've 133 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: got the core Warners and the core folks in the 134 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: middle of the trauma, and everyone else is gone. I 135 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: thought it was also interesting to finally see the matriarch 136 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: of the Rodent family. She's Chris Senior's mother and the 137 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: grandmother therefore of Hannahme Rodin, Chris Junior Rodin, Frankie Rodin, 138 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: and I believe then her grandson would also be Luke. 139 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: Chris and Kenneth were her sons, which yes, would make 140 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: Luke her grandson. I was so sad for Geneva Rodin 141 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: because I looked over at one point and there were 142 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: just some horrific crime scene photos being shown. Here's reporter 143 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: Anjeanette Levy, who was also present in the courtroom, and 144 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: Geneva Rodin was consoling her daughters who were sobbing. She 145 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: was sobbing. They were kind of consoling one another and 146 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: just understandably falling apart having to see photos of their 147 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: loved ones murdered and what is just an unbelievable amount 148 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: of blood in some instances. Meanwhile, Kenneth Roden's son Luke, 149 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: had also caught wind of the murders on the morning 150 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: of April twenty second, twenty sixteen. Here he is testifying, 151 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: my mom came into my bedroom and said that I 152 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: needed to get up and Chris and everybody got out 153 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: there shot up on the hill. Luke Roden is an 154 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: imposing man with a beard and short brown hair. He 155 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: wears a blue shirt, lucas poised and speaks in a 156 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: very matter of fact manner. As news spread around town 157 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: of the murders, Luke tried to make his way to 158 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: his uncle, Chris Senior's house, but police had already cordoned 159 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: off the road. And then do you know how you 160 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: knew to go to the church. Someone who came out 161 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: last night that they had alled me never at the 162 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: church while you were trying to get through there. It 163 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: informs you to go to the church, right, people were 164 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: gathering at the church. Yeah, on Donald Stone, his father's 165 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: cousin and best friend at the church. During this time, 166 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: do you make any attempts to contact your father? Yes, 167 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: try to contact about a dozen times. Never received anything 168 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: back from him. Okay, is that normal? No? Okay? At 169 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: that point do you get concerned? Yes? I do. Here 170 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: again James Pilcher. Both of them talked about the chaos 171 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: and all of the things that were happening when they 172 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: didn't know where Ken was, they couldn't get in touch 173 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: with him. The prosecution even showed a picture of the 174 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: cell phone that Ken would put in his window to 175 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: try to give a reception. And you went down to 176 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: your dad's what did you do when you got there? 177 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: I've seen his trust still on driveway, so I got out. 178 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor Angie Caneppa shows Luke and the jury various 179 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: exterior photos of Kenneth's property. There is an abandoned boat 180 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: on one side of the driveway entrance. Nestled back in 181 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: the woods are two trailers and an outbuilding. It's April, 182 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: so there are no leaves on the trees, but you 183 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: can imagine it's pretty secluded. Once things are in bloom. 184 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: Canneppa spends nearly thirty minutes dissecting each photo for the jury. 185 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: Reporter James Pilcher noted the level of detail on the 186 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: part of the prosecution. I don't mean this is a 187 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: criticism towards a prosecution, because they got to do what 188 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: they got to do. But this is going extremely, extremely slowly. 189 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: It feels like they're trying to kill an net with 190 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: a ten pounds sledgehammer. They're pulling out every single piece 191 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: of evidence they have for every single possible question that 192 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: could come up. This trial has slowed to a nails face. 193 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: On cross examination, the defense questions Luke Rodan about a 194 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: local whose name we have heard come up in our investigation, 195 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: Big Money. Mike Kay tell us, Mike didn't tell you. 196 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: I've heard his name, book didn't tell you who he is. 197 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: You've heard his name from? Yeah, I didn't hear about 198 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: it until everything happened, So I Can, Stephanie, and Jeff. 199 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: In Luke Roden's testimony, he made it clear that he 200 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: hadn't heard the name Big Money Mike until after the 201 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: murders and didn't know how it related to his family 202 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: members being murdered. I'm curious where the prosecution is leading 203 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: to because it's come up now twice. We started doing 204 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: our own digging about Big Money Mike, and we have 205 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: to assume that that stands for Michael Moran. He is 206 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: the attorney that has since died that we covered pretty 207 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: extensively in season two, and he had a very checkered past. 208 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: Maybe that's him, but again we don't know for sure. 209 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: This is just another example of the prosecution building a 210 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: narrative that we're not totally sure where it will lead 211 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: until they rest and you Kanapa ask Luke about what 212 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: happened after he and Donald Stone entered his father's home. 213 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: Donald he stamped up in there and loved and he 214 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: passed me and told me to get out, like he'd 215 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: been shot. He told you he had been shot, he said, 216 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: let all over his face. When you were inside of 217 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: your dad's home, did you stay pop it all into 218 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: his bedroom? I don't believe. I steped up in his bedroom. 219 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: I may have stepped on the step right there. Maybe, No, 220 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't believe I stepped into the bedroom. Okay? Were 221 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: you able to see any part of him from where 222 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: you were? I was able to see his leg at 223 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: the top of his head, and the blanket it was 224 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: actually placed like it has been placed ony. Okay, there 225 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: was a blanket on him right. Okay. Were you able 226 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: to see his face at that time at all? No? 227 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: I just see his forehead and his hair. At this point, 228 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: Kunapa asked Luke about the money that was found on 229 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: Kenneth's body. I seen probably, I don't know how much, 230 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: but like a few ones and fives and stuff like that, 231 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: some money payer money, and his pants was laying there 232 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: beside it. Here's Stephanie and Jeff Winkler. We always sort 233 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: of had heard that he had almost like there was 234 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: money thrown all over his body. Yeah. It was a 235 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: rolled up dollar bill and some change. That's all it was. 236 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: There wasn't money lying everywhere. We always maybe thought that 237 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: was such an interesting crime scene and very different than 238 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: the others, and maybe that was a way of making 239 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: it look like a hit, or make it look like 240 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: the Cartel had done it. It was a good reminder 241 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: that in those first you know, first forty eight hours 242 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: or whatever of just pure speculation, that's hard enough to beat. 243 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: But then the little bits of fantasy, hitch on for 244 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: a rod and don't let go. We're going to take 245 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: a break. We'll be back in a moment. For most 246 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: of the morning, George Wagner the fourth, it's motionless looking down. 247 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: This is true, especially during Donald stone emotional testimony. George 248 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: Wagner finally makes eye contact when questions turned to his family. 249 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: Luke only had brief interactions with the Wagners over the years, 250 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: but one with Billy stuck out in his memory. I 251 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: was out at his property one time. It was the 252 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: one that's pretty far off the grid, and my dad 253 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: and Chris learning tobacco for him to do something and 254 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: back went to the star so he got a hold 255 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: my dad and Chris. They brought some tarps and space 256 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: heater and all that didn't get the back. They warmed 257 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: up to in order to get us started. I was 258 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: standing there on the trailer and he was standing beside me, 259 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: looked at me. He said, he see they see people. 260 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: He said, there's some really good people. He said that 261 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: I had to fuck with him, that they had to 262 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: shoot him if they ever had the what that's with him, 263 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: if he had had a tussle with him, whatever, that 264 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: he had had to shoot him. Did he explain why 265 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: that was or did he say anything more? That was it? 266 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: But he was telling you that they were really great people. Yeah. 267 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: First Right at the end of his testimony, Luke was 268 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: asked to point out George by both the prosecution and 269 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: the defense, George Widen President in the Portland today. Yes, 270 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: if so, can you point to where he is sitting 271 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: and described for us when he's wearing right there the 272 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: last one. He hasn't changed the appearance was at all. Yes, 273 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: he has. Wait wise, he was much larger when you 274 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: last saw him. Right now, Yes, here again, Stephanie. I 275 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: was struck just by seeing George Wagner in person, having 276 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 1: never seen him before in person. He was slighter than 277 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: I imagined him being. He's got a little ball going on, 278 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, boots are shined, just kind of looks regular, 279 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: which is not what you you know, they're supposed to 280 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: have some sort of like dark glow around him. Right. 281 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: Media covering the trial immediately latched onto the story Luke 282 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: had told about his interaction with Billy Wagner, the son 283 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: of one of the Pie County massacre victims, testified Billy 284 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: Wagner's right in the road in family four or five 285 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: years before the actual shootings. Luke said that while his 286 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: dad and uncle were doing a good deed for Billy Wagner, 287 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: Billy told Luke that a dust up between the three 288 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: of them would not end well. After Kneppa's well planned 289 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: line of questioning of Luke, Rodin, George's defense attorney has 290 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: very little to add. He rests within minutes. Here again, 291 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: James Pilcher queerly, they are cutting off any opportunity for 292 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: the defense to ask, well, why didn't you ask this, 293 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you do this? 294 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: Now the defense is still trying to find its way 295 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: to do that. The final witness of the day frustraits 296 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution strategy perfectly. Brett Hatfield was a friend and 297 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: co worker of Kenneth Rodens. He opts out of media coverage, 298 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: but we were there to follow his testimony. Brett Hatfield 299 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: worked in Columbus at the same company as Kenneth, so 300 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: the pair very often carpooled together. However, on the morning 301 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: of April twenty second, twenty sixteen, they did it, and 302 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: when Hatfield arrived at Kenneth's home, probably around four am 303 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: the morning of April twenty second, he said there were 304 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: no lights on and that Kenneth's didn't come to the 305 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: door as he normally did. It turns out that the 306 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: day before, Hatfield said that Kenneth had been complaining of 307 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: high blood pressure, a condition that Luke explained sometimes made 308 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: him sick and could cause him to miswork. So despite 309 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: Kenneth's car being in the lot, Hatfield assumed that maybe 310 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: somebody picked him up and took him to the hospital. 311 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: So he just left. James Pilcher he came and saw 312 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: Kennis all the time. So you put them up on 313 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: the stand. They're going incrementally chronologically, and I think they're 314 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: feeling their way as they go through this trial. To 315 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: let the jury know, we took every step to interview 316 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: everybody we could. Legal analyst Mike Allen, who's speaking with Jeff, agrees, 317 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: it just tells the story here. This poor guy, you know, 318 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: he wants to pick up his buddy to drive to 319 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: Columbus to go to work, but he's not there. That's 320 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: something that's pretty strong, and I know the prosecution wanted 321 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: the jury to hear that. Yeah, it definitely paints a picture, 322 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: and that's what they need to do. That's what they're doing. 323 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: Hours after Hatfield left kind of Throden's trailer that morning, 324 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: a member of the road and family call to tell 325 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: them about them. Hatfield immediately left work in Columbus and 326 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: returned to piked In. Here's Luke Roden. Did he arrive 327 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: at some point? Yes, he did, whenever we were sitting down, 328 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: are right on the cops to come. And all that 329 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: he showed up on was full wheeler and just did 330 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: like a scammera my dad's property, the highest trailer and 331 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Okay, And do you know what he 332 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: was looking for at the time, cameras, seeing if the 333 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: cameras was still around, to see if there was any 334 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: footage more or less Okay, many of the cameras were missing. 335 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: The prosecution asked him about Kenneth's dog, Brownie earlier in 336 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: the day. Both Luke Roden and Donald Stone testified the 337 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: dog was inside the trailer when they arrived, but Hatfield 338 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: adds a very telling detail about the dog here again, 339 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie and Jeff. Interesting about Brownie is that Hatfield says 340 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: the dog would bite anybody, didn't matter who you were 341 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: unless you called the dog by name. And that's interesting 342 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: because it was reported that the Wagners didn't have any 343 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: dog bites on them whatsoever, So why didn't Brownie attack 344 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: so steph That says to me that it seems pretty 345 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: likely that whoever was there that night must have known 346 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: the dog by name. And keep in mind that we 347 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: have heard from numerous people that many of the Rodent 348 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: properties had dogs like this on them, so that would 349 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: be indicative that whoever was at all of these crime 350 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: scenes knew all of the dogs. In theory. Hadfield added 351 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: yet another chilling detail to the timeline of April twenty second, 352 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. He said that when he found out about 353 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: the murders, he tried calling everyone in the Rodent family. 354 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: He even sent a DM to Hannah May on social media, who, 355 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: as we know, was tragically already dead. Hadfield said that 356 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: he never got a response, but he did get a 357 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: notification that the message was read. So what does that mean? 358 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: I would imagine after the murder of the killers were 359 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: probably cleaning up or figuring out what to do, and 360 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: her phone was pinging, and the silence that maybe they 361 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: looked at it or opened the text message and shut 362 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: it down. All we know is that Hotfield sent a 363 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: message after she was already murdered, and somebody read that 364 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: message and it could not have been Hannah Me wrote it. 365 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: We know that it's come up that Jake Wagner took 366 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: several phones from the crime scenes and allegedly destroyed them 367 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: the next day. Is this one of those phones? And 368 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: think about this? Can you imagine being Jake Wagner and 369 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: you're literally reading a text on the phone of the 370 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: mother of your baby who you just murdered, and you 371 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: have enough wherewithal to potentially check her phone and read 372 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: her texts. With the trial underway, the Rodent family is 373 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: inching towards closure, but not before some wounds are reopened 374 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: for all the world to see. Let's stop here for 375 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: another break. After court adjourned for the day, Luke was 376 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: interviewed on the courthouse steps. Luke, what was it like 377 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: to be on the witness standing nerve wracking? Uh, seeing 378 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: them photos and stuff and bringing the past up and 379 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: their thing is really horror of my mental state. Geneva's 380 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: your grandmother, right, correct? Talk about how this is an 381 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,239 Speaker 1: effector we've seen her crying where just talking about her 382 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: and the whole family houses affected. She went through a lot, 383 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: and I wish she had never had to go through 384 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: any of this. She's lost, well are children at a 385 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: young age, and and now she's done with all her 386 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: other children and her grandchildren murder. And I think everything's 387 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: getting closer to the end. I can't wait until Za really, 388 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: so the rest of our family can get home with 389 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: our lives. And I can't imagine. Can you even put 390 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: it into words what it's like, the worst nightmare living 391 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: in hell? Really? What are your thoughts about the wagoners? 392 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: My thoughts about the wagoners? I hope the everything comes 393 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: to him. When you examined that hat, did you find 394 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: what you believed to be a bullet hole in the 395 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: back of it? Yes, both sides agreed that traces of 396 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: Gary Roden's blood were found on the door knob, but 397 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: not of the wagoners. That seemed to make the case 398 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: for the defense. None of the evidence collected were examined 399 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: with respect to that scene contained any DNA that was 400 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: linked to George Wagner, this defendant Jake Wagner, Angela Wagner 401 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: or Billy Wager. When are they all going to tie 402 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: this together? When are they going to point to George 403 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: being part of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical 404 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: evidence presented so far had any of the Wagoners to 405 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: any of these crime scenes. I can tell you the 406 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: prosecutors is telling us behind the scenes is coming. It's coming, 407 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: It's coming, that we're all going to tie it together. 408 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: We're starting to seek the reds of it. Glad. More 409 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: on that next time. For more information on the case 410 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KAT Underscore Studios. 411 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: The Pikedon Maskers produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, Scott 412 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: de Graus, Andrew Arnow and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 413 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Taw. Music by Jared Aston. The 414 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: Pikedon Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and KAT Studios. 415 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio 416 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: app Apple Podcasts. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 417 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Please welcome mar Fite County Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord. I 418 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, 419 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: that's blood all over the house. Who could have killed 420 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: eight family members in one night? I lost my best 421 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: friends and I will never be the same because of 422 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The 423 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The 424 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the 425 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: master mind, I'm telling you, is a crier. I'm not 426 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: fitting in prison. One thing I learned, the smaller the town, 427 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: the baker the sacrets. Be sure to watch our our 428 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders of Family Massacre, premiering 429 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock 430 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. 431 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: Please check your local listings and our hearts are with 432 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: the Rodents and the Gilly families.