1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I guess since 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: about twenty thirteen twenty twelve, I've appeared on various television 3 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: networks over that period of time, and one of the 4 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: things I've taken great pleasure in is the fact that 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: I wear ties on air. I love it. And the 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: reason I love it is that I buy my ties 7 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: at thrift stores. Because so many people spend so much 8 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: money to look really good on air. I go out 9 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: and I find the coolest ties I can find, and 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: I wear them on air. I think part of it 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: just has to go with the fact that I grew 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: up with not a lot of money, and I like 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: to kind of display that on air, that you can 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: look good without spending a bunch of money. But the 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: case I'm going to cover today actually talks about a 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: favorite tie. It talks about a favorite tie that a 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: gentleman like to wear on a regular basis. It talks 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: about an overdose involving Fentnel, and it talks about a 19 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: relationship gone bad. Today we're going to talk about the 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: home side of Francis Kelly. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks. Joining me today is my friend Jackie Howard, 22 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, I 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: don't know about you. When I was a kid, you 24 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: had to get all gussied up to go to church, 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: and part of that was wearing a tie, of warning 26 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: to tie my entire life. And you know, it's hard 27 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: for me not to wear a tie, I think when 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: I go out in the public and that sort of 29 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: thing to do appearances and whatnot. People are more casual 30 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: about it. But some of us guys just like our ties. 31 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: And in this particular case, this poor fellow had a 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: tie that he loved, he loved, and he apparently wore 33 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: it on a regular basis, and interestingly enough, this tie 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: actually led to his death. Well, I'm going to tell you, Joe, 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: while I did get gussied up to go to church, 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: I can categorically tell you I did not wear a tie. 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: We're talking today about forty six year old Francis Kelly. 38 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: When Francis Kelly's body was discovered, police found him on 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: his couch in his home and a bag of cocaine 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: underneath him. But at the time they did observe some 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: bruising around his eyes, elbow's knees, and hand. However, there 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: was no evidence to suggest that foul play was involved 43 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: in Kelly's death, so initially before the autopsy they made 44 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: some assumptions that he had in fact odd because he 45 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: had this bag of cocaine. The autopsy discovered that Kelly 46 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: was strange and sustained blunt force trauma to his head, 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: and it wasn't cocaine that was found in his system, 48 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: but as you mentioned, fentanyl. So let's talk first about 49 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: the difference between fentnyl and cocaine and what each would 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: do to you having that in your system. Yeah, you know, 51 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: you're not going to see a lot of differences, I 52 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: don't think externally as a result of cocaine abuse versus 53 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: fentnyl abuse. There are certain things that you can look for. 54 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: People that use cocaine many times will have a real 55 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: wasted appearance. I guess as a result of you know, 56 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: kind of hyperactivity. They don't keep weight on them very well. 57 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: Back in the eighties, when people snorted a lot of cocaine, 58 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: you'd have spontaneous nosebleeds. I've actually worked workcases of snorting 59 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: cocaine where individuals have eroded the septum in their nose. 60 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: You know, that cardilaginous separation that you have between both 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: of your nostrils, and it kind of aulterates that sort 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: of thing, and those are things that you look for, 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: and you look for needle tracks as well. But you 64 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: know you can have needle tracks associated with the use 65 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: of a fentanyl and cocaine as well. You know, they're 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: both rendered down. You can put it in a liquid 67 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: form and essentially injected, So you're not going to see 68 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: a lot of differences necessarily just upon initial observation of 69 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: subjects at the scene. So you know, what do you 70 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: turn to, Well, you turn to any kind of changes 71 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: that might have happened internally, and that's one of the 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: things that we do. You know, at autopsy with cocaine 73 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: in particular, you might see signs of particularly those individuals 74 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: that have long term abuse of cocaine, you'll see hypertensive 75 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: changes in the heart that you get a condition called 76 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: left ventricular hypertrophe, and that's just kind of a fancy 77 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: term for saying that the wall of the heart thickens. 78 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: Say that again, left ventricular hypertrophe, and so you begin 79 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: to see it with the the actual wall of the 80 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: heart began to thicken, and it's as a result of 81 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: individual's drug use. Sometimes it can be a natural event 82 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: as well, and there'll be the thickening that occurs, and 83 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: we do measurements on the walls of the heart at 84 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: autopsy to give an idea if it's it's what they 85 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: refer to as it's normal anatomical configuration. And you know, 86 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: if you see some kind of anomaly like that, you 87 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: might say, well, you know what, maybe this person has 88 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: just got severe hypertension, maybe they've got something else genetic 89 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: that you know, will genetically predispose them to some of 90 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: these things, or it could be a drug related event 91 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: like them utilizing cocaine, particularly on a regular basis. Cocaine 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: is actually a stimulant. It's going to increase the metabolic 93 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: activity in our body. It pushes your blood pressure up, 94 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But fitting along the hand, it's 95 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: a synthetic opiate. That means it's created an a laboratory 96 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: and it depresses the system. So, you know how we 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: talked about the heart relative to the cocaine. If you 98 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: begin to think about the lungs relative to fentyl, that's 99 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: what really is hammered in the body. And many times 100 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: when you have an individual that has died, particularly of 101 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: what's referred to as acute OD and acute you know, 102 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: just so we understand, acute is like a sudden event 103 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to chronic, which means long term. But if 104 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: you have an acute event involving an opiate like this, 105 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: you'll have people that have very very heavy lungs at autopsy. 106 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: That means that they'll be heavily congested. They'll weigh more 107 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: than they normally should. Because we weigh each organ in 108 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: a scale. And I don't know if people know this, 109 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: but it's kind of a horrible thought. The next time 110 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: you go to the grocery store and you see a 111 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: scale that that's in the produce aisle, that is exactly 112 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: the kind of scale that's used in the more to 113 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: weigh individual organs. And there are certain parameters that we 114 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: look for for organ weights, and anytime we have an 115 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: organ that is over the expected weight for that particular age, 116 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: that'll make a scratch our head a little bit and say, well, 117 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: what's causing this heaviness or if it's lighter for instance, 118 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,239 Speaker 1: which most of the time you find things that are heavier, 119 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: and in the cases of opiates like this opiate OD, 120 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: you would expect to find the lungs being heavier, congested 121 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: with fluid and blood and that sort of thing, and 122 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: sometimes that's indicative of ad. One fascinating thing that you 123 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: see at crime scenes relative to individuals that have overdosed 124 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: on some type of depressant like an opiate, is you'll 125 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: have a presentation of what's referred to as a frothy 126 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: edemitius cone is what it's called. And you'll see this 127 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: kind of white foam looks like the head of a beard. 128 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: And we've actually talked about this before on body back 129 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: that's issues from the nose and from the mouth, and 130 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: it'll be tainted in a pink, kind of a pink color, 131 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: and again that's as a result of this kind of 132 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: hyper congestion that's going on where the people are really 133 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: struggling to breeze. And because with this drug in particular, 134 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: you begin to think about, you know, what does it 135 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: do systemically, How does it affect a brain, How does 136 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: it affect your motor functions? These sorts of things. You'll 137 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: see these individuals that cannot move around because folks might 138 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: not realize. Fentnyl was actually originally developed as a partner 139 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: for surgical anesthesia with other drugs, So it is meant 140 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: to put an individual down into this kind of deep repose, 141 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: if you will, to get them manageable for surgery. It's 142 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: also used for pain relief for years and years. Kind 143 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: of interesting. They developed fentnyl and placed it in a patch. 144 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: People have seen nicotine patches for instance, that people wear, 145 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, to quit smoking. Well, people have had fentnyl 146 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: patches as well. And the patch itself is essentially populated 147 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: with a dosage of fentyl, and then it's what's called transdermal. 148 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: You put the patch over a prescribed area and that 149 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: medication kind of seeps in through the skin and goes 150 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: into the system and gives pain relief. People that have 151 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: things like crowding, back pain and hip pain and all 152 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: those sorts of things that people develop over time as 153 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: a result of age or injury can get relief with it. 154 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: So it's a very very powerful drug. And then when 155 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: it's out on the street and it's being manufactured, say 156 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: for instance, in a clandestine lab, because fentyl is one 157 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: of those things that is just the absolute scourge of 158 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: our society right now. One of the many drugs it's 159 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: made and not very well controlled environments. It's made in 160 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: other countries, for instance, and then people smuggle it in 161 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: and you don't really know what's in it. It can 162 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: make for a very very lethal cocktail. What you're telling me, Joe, 163 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of experience in what you're 164 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: talking about. So if I understand you, what you're telling 165 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: me is one is an upper and one's a downer. Yeah, 166 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: And i'd also like to say, as your friend, I'm 167 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: glad you don't have a lot of experience into Jackie. 168 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: So but yeah, yeah, you're right. One is an upper 169 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: and one is a downer. And when you begin to 170 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: think about the fentanyl in particular, it essentially sends the 171 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: victim into respiratory failure. We hear a lot about cardiac failure, 172 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: but the lungs become so heavy as a result of 173 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: this congestion that's going on. Oh so it's it's not 174 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: that they absorb anything, it's that they can't function, so 175 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: they're congested with fluids. Right Yet, I had an old 176 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: doctor one time actually referred to it. It's like the 177 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: patients It's the equivalent of somebody trying to run in 178 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: mud and it's it becomes so labored and they're struggling 179 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: so hard, and they don't have an awareness, you know, 180 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: to kind of you can't you can't fight fight your 181 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: way out of it at a chemical level, because it's 182 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: hammering the body so hard it would be very difficult 183 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: to kind of pull back from it. That's why nowadays, 184 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, they they carry nark. You know, we have 185 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: many number of agencies out there that apply a narkin. 186 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: They have the ability and it kind of counteracts this 187 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: kind of depressant event that occurs with a subject that 188 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: has been found down. There's so many people that just 189 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: kind of fall over as a result of being an 190 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: exposed nyl. There. They're even cases out there and this 191 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: dangerous and how insidious this drug is. Our law enforcement 192 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: officers can go inside of the cabin of a car 193 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: many times, okay, then think about how horrific this is, 194 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: and they'll open up a bag that might contain this 195 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: finnyl that has been made in some clandestine lab and 196 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: suddenly this kind of cloud comes out and this is 197 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: almost in a histamine like form. It kind of spreads 198 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: into the air and the copstant note it's there. You know, 199 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: they're just kind of searching the area. It's not like 200 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: they have a gas mask on or a ventilator on 201 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: or something, you know, like you see with firefighters. So 202 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: they inhalate this stuff and my gosh, you inhalate this 203 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: stuff in a powdered form and it gets right into 204 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: the mucous membranes and it's absorbed and this is going 205 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: into the lungs. So how much more so, for instance, 206 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: if an individual has it mixed, and you'll find people 207 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: that are mixing it in cocaine, which is kind of interesting. 208 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: You know, you think about cocaine, which is in fact 209 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: a stimulant, being mixed with fentnel, which is at present 210 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of takes us back to the days of you know, 211 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: you think about how Belushi died. He died of what 212 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: was called a speedball, which was a combination of cocaine 213 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: and heroin and that was directly injected and it just 214 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: really wrecks the system. But just ventell by itself can 215 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: even send somebody that's in a passive status that are 216 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: seen like a police officer that's just kind of looking 217 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: around that that kind of histamine that they can inhalate 218 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: it can kill you. You've mentioned a couple of times now, Joe, 219 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: that fentyl is man made. So is this what we're 220 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: hearing all the time about in the same vein that 221 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: methamphetamine is Maine. Where people are pulling things out of 222 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: cold myths. Yeah, well, you know, fentnyl itself is you know, 223 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: it's based on the molecule that's you know, that's originally 224 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: an opiate, you know, which is a naturally occurring depressant. 225 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: We've had, for instance, we've had like morphine, you know, 226 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: for a long long time, and morphine is a natural 227 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: derivative that you know, you go all the way back 228 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: to the Civil War and you begin to think about 229 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: people were trying to use painkillers, if you will, where 230 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, they were able to essentially draw out that 231 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: element of the poppy plant for instance, which is you 232 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: know where heroin derives from, and applied this agent in 233 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: order to reduce pain. And it has been effective. I mean, 234 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: it's it's given a lot of relief. Famously, you know, 235 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: you can think about our troops out in the field, 236 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, in any number of movies we've seen from 237 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: World War Two, where the troops used to carry serets. 238 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: They call them serets, the little ampules with the built 239 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: in needle of morphine. These guys would be in terrible 240 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: pain after sustaining some horrific wound. Their fellow soldiers would 241 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: take the serette and jam it into their leg and 242 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: apply the morphine, and it gives instant relief to a 243 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: certain degree. It stems the pain because it acts on 244 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: the pain centers and it mutes that pain. I just said, 245 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: the person is not suffering, but you know he's Here's 246 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: the key when you're talking about a trug like this 247 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: and in its synthetic form, which now you take that 248 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: original naturally occurring molecule and you synthesize it and you 249 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: make it a man made substance where the molecule is 250 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: very similar to that that is occurring in nature, and 251 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: you adjust it. You know, it's said, for instance, like 252 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: fentnyl is, just hold onto your hat for this is 253 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: it's like a hundred times more powerful than heroin. Just 254 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: let that sink in just for a second. One hundred 255 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: times more powerful. That means it requires less of the 256 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: substance to get the same high that an individual might 257 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: get from heroin. But if you adjust that dosage just 258 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: slightly and you apply just a bit more, the person 259 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: will essentially flattening. Don you know the thing about medical 260 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: with that investigation that I've always tried to drum into 261 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: any investigator that I train or those just to give 262 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: props with them those that train me, is it is 263 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: always essential as an investigator you go to the scene, 264 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: you take a look at the body in its context 265 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: in which it is found. And in this case with 266 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: Francis Kelly, it led to some serious, serious questions that 267 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: the police had. So here's my question. The autopsy found 268 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: Kelly had fentnyl in his system, and yet there was 269 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: cocaine underneath him. So how did he get the fentnyl? 270 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: We know that he ingested it. Now is that a 271 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: normal way of getting fentnyl? Is that going to have 272 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: a different reaction in the body. We know that he 273 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: was ultimately given fentnyl three times. It was in his 274 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: oatmeal and put in his me so soup, and I'm 275 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: honestly I'm not sure about what food it him. The 276 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: third one was in, But would he have taken it? 277 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: Would he have known that he was eating this? And 278 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: does ingesting it offer you a different kind of effect. 279 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: Those are valid questions in sense that. And I'll go 280 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: ahead and tell you what mister Kelly had remarked. At 281 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: one point in time, he had made a remark that 282 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: he had taken a bite of food and it tasted funny. 283 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us in the audience have 284 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: ever eaten something somewhere and it had an unnatural taste 285 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: to it? If it's prepared at a restaurant or something 286 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: like that, it almost has a chemical taste to it. 287 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: A great example for me, I don't like to use 288 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: a dishwasher him, so I'll just use like, you know, 289 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: dish liquid and scrub things out. And do you ever 290 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: have the experience where you didn't quite get all of 291 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: the dish liquid out of some type of vessel that 292 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: you're cleaning, and then later you go back and you say, wow, 293 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: this tastes like dish detergent. Well, think about that. It's 294 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: it's got something that is unnatural to taste. Yeah, he 295 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: was aware of it. I think he was aware of 296 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: one of these times that someone had attempted to actually 297 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: give him some type of agent, which you know, of course, 298 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: turns out to be fentyl in his system, and yeah, 299 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: there's an awareness, and a lot of it has to 300 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: do with how much is applied. One of the great 301 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: questions you hear about, if fentyl is applied, or any 302 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: kind of drug is applied, how's it going to get 303 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: systemically into the system the quickest? And boy, I mean 304 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: I've got some incredible stories from over the years where 305 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: people have placed any number of different types of agents 306 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: in their body in different locations certainly, and all have 307 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: a variety of different effects. And how long it takes 308 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: for them to kind of be absorbed into this system 309 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: and will they totally be absorbed. You think about an individual, 310 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: for instance, that has something like cocaine or fentnyl or know, 311 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: people have smarted heroine. That's something that has been done well, 312 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: it goes into the mucus membrane. Well, when you absorb this, 313 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: where's it going well into the mucous membrane, it's also 314 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: going directly into the lungs, and so the uptake of 315 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: this is going to be really quick. Another quick way 316 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: is through IV injection, which I'm not talking about like 317 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: an ivy bag hanging in a hospital. I'm talking about 318 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: interveniously where an individual. You've seen movies where people will 319 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: will tie off essentially and they'll render down whatever it 320 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: is that they're injecting into their body with a spoon, 321 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: heating it, rendering it down, and then they draw it 322 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: up and inject it. They tie off with a tourniquet, 323 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: the vessel pops up and they go directly into the vein. Well, 324 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: that's very quick as well. There's something else that's kind 325 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: of interesting. People also do something called skin popping, which 326 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: is very it's really quite disgusting actually, but they will 327 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: take an injectable that they've rendered down and they'll go 328 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: directly in their skin, not searching for a vessel. They'll 329 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: they'll go into what's referred to as into the sub 330 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: q fat, which means that layer fat directly below the skin. 331 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: And it's called skin popping. And you have people that 332 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: skin pop and those drugs are injected and there they 333 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: absorb a little bit slower. But what occurs is these 334 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: drugs that are clandestinely made. They're cut with things like 335 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: heroin traditionally has been cut with things like quinine, talcum powder. 336 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: It's been cut with baby formula, all kinds of things 337 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: over the years, so that the dealers can extend their 338 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: supply of the drugs, so they'll cut it so it's 339 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: like a sixty forty cut. It won't be in a 340 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: pure state. And what happens is with the skin popping 341 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: is that these areas will actually ulterate because when they 342 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: skin pop, for instance, if an individual is injecting something 343 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: like quinine or talcum powder, it's not metabolized. It just 344 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: kind of sits there, eat the skin. It becomes irritated, 345 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: and then you get an ulcerated area. And you'll find 346 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: many people that skin pop will have these huge ulcerated 347 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: lesions all over their bodies. And that's types of things 348 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: that you've seen. And then you have people that have 349 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: particularly in poisonings because that's that's the easiest way to 350 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: get it into a non suspecting person's system. You know, 351 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: you approach somebody with a needle and you inject them 352 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: or attempt to inject them, they're going to fight you 353 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: off most of the time if they haven't awareness that 354 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: this is happening. So many people will clandestinely put items 355 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: into into food and stir around or mix it up 356 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: and then try to get the person to ingest it 357 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: and then of course, you know, you have stories of 358 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: people that mule drugs in from you know, from various countries, 359 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: and they of course insert a variety of different types 360 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: of drugs into their backside for instance. And you know, 361 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: I had I know one kid that came up from 362 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: South America at one point time, from Bolivia specifically, and 363 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: he had twenty condoms that were clipped with surgical staples, 364 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: and he had pure cocaine in each one of these condoms. 365 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: It's about twenty I'm sorry, it was about ten grams each. 366 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: And one of the condoms erupted and he got a 367 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: ten gram dosage of cocaine into his large intestine and 368 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: it like immediately he just fell over dead. It was 369 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: absorbed that quickly into the intestinal lining. I'm giving a 370 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: long answer here, but it's you never know how it's 371 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: going to be absorbed. And also, you know, if you're 372 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, having it passed through the digestive 373 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 1: track in the form of food, If it's mixed in, 374 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: the absorption is going to take a bit longer. It 375 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: might even require higher dosage than it would, say, for instance, 376 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: if it was being injected directly into a vein. So 377 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: what we're seeing in this case, when Kelly was found, 378 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: he was still alive. So what you're telling me is 379 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: due to the method that he was given the drug, 380 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: it's not enough to kill them. Yeah, or it could be, 381 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, the progression of the metabolism itself, the progression 382 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: of the metabolism. You're gonna have to school me, but yeah, yeah, yeah, 383 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, let me let me back off a 384 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: little bit, because that's not that's not entirely accurate, but 385 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: just okay, let's just put in common terms relative to 386 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: people ingesting food, certain types of food make you feel different, 387 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: you know, and um, you know, depending upon whatever it is. Say, 388 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: for instance, people that don't have necessarily a real tolerance 389 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: for sugar. For instance, you might eat a candy bar 390 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: and then it might taste really good initially okay, and 391 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: then maybe ten fifteen minutes later, your body starts to 392 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: uptake everything that's in the candy bar and your body's 393 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: not processing it okay, and you start to feel really bad. Okay. 394 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: Maybe people that are pre diabetic or diabetic and they 395 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: eat this and it makes them feel really really bad, Well, 396 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: that's part of the metabolic uptake of that particular substance 397 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: as somebody has applied some type of agent like funnel 398 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: into a food source and the individual ing the food source, well, 399 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: it passes through the mouth, down the esophagus and drops 400 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: into the stomach. Well, the stomach sits there and kind 401 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: of churns this food and it's absorbed through the stomach wall. 402 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: Just because it is being absorbed and nutrients are being 403 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: taken out of it, doesn't mean you're getting everything out 404 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: of it. Say, for instance, if you took the pure 405 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: substance and injected it directly into a vein, all right, 406 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: So you would either require more in order to facilitate this, 407 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: or it would be a matter of the type of 408 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: agent that you're mixing it with, whether it's soup, for instance, 409 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: versus a oatmeal or grits or something like that that 410 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: might be a bit more dense. It might kind of 411 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: shield the individual from ingestion of it totally and uptaking it. 412 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: And so the longer your body goes along it has 413 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: a higher probability of been jesting it, and maybe you 414 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: can make it through safely. But if this is being 415 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: done to you over and over and over again, sooner 416 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: or later you're going to die. There's nothing as an 417 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: investigator that will make you stop cold in your tracks 418 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: than an unexpected result at autopsy. It's something that makes 419 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: you question your abilities. It's something that makes you question 420 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: the care that you took with the case. Because this 421 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: is this is key. Once the scene has been left, 422 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: once the body has been removed from the scene, you 423 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: can never reset, you can never do it. You get 424 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: one shot at doing it right. And in this case, Jackie, 425 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: when they got into this autopsy, they found something completely 426 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: unexpected that is true, and that was the fact that 427 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: Kelly was strangled and did not od as they initially suspected. 428 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: Kelly's body was found by his former girlfriend Heidie Marie 429 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: Littlefield and her adult daughter Logan Marie Runyan and Runyan's 430 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: boyfriend Robert Walker. Now, the two women had secretly got 431 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: into Kelly's house and poisoned his oatmeal and some soup 432 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: as I told you, with fentyl. But when they went 433 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 1: back to the home, Kelly wasn't dead. He was still 434 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: grasping for breath. He was unresponsive but trying to breathe, 435 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: and at that point they decided to finish him off 436 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: and they used a tie, specifically his favorite tie to 437 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: strangle him. Why was that not originally obvious? Because, as 438 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: you've talked before, usually ligature stranglings leave a mark. So 439 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: why didn't they look at him, the investigators when his 440 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: body was reported, Why didn't they look at him and go, 441 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: oh wait, there's marks there. That's key. I want everyone 442 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: in the sound of my voice to envision a male 443 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: necktie right now. Just envisioned kind of a standard necktie. 444 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: Not talking about like a you know what, tiny little 445 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: string tie or something. I'm talking about a regular necktie. 446 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: They're why they're two to three inches maybe four inches, 447 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: dependent upon the particular cycle that you point through, immense fashion, 448 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: and generally they're smooth. Many of them are made out 449 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: of either silk, the really expensive ones, or maybe some 450 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: kind of synthetic version of a silk or the it's 451 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: the appearance of a silky fabric. And you know, with 452 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: that type of construction of this tie, it's not like 453 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: a rope, and it's not like an electrical chord. Do 454 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: you think about a rope or an electrical chord? How 455 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of narrow they are they create when they're used 456 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: as a ligature, they create a very narrow furrow. It's 457 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: called a furrow, just like a furrow in a field 458 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: that's being plowed, and they're deep. They're very deep with 459 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: rope in particular, because folks will think about rope, it's 460 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: kind of woven many times. Most of the time it's woven, 461 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: and it's made out of a lot of different materials, 462 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: but it's woven. It has a very specific pattern, you know, 463 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: you think about like a herring bone pattern, or if 464 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: you have a twist like a baling rope. It's very 465 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: rough to the touch and when you apply it, the 466 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: more tension that you put on this thing, the deeper 467 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: the furrow, and it's going to leave behind an area 468 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: of abrasion or we call it an abraided area where 469 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: the skin is kind of burned beneath it. Depend upon 470 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: how long it's been, it will have almost a dry, 471 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: kind of a dried out appearance if you will. And 472 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: sometimes if you're very very careful and you examine it 473 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: very closely, particularly with like a magnifying glass or a 474 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: loop like you use to examine photos with, you'll see 475 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: the pattern actually manifesting itself of the surface in the entry. 476 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: And that's really good for us because in forensics, because 477 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: if we find a rope, for instance, or an electrical cord. 478 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes we can match those things up at least get 479 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: in the ballpark with it, but with a tie. Because 480 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: it's so broad you're in, it's so soft, you're not 481 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: going to leave that kind of a braided area on 482 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: the outside. And you know, as was mentioned Francis Kelly, 483 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: he's got ventnyl in a system. Remember what we had 484 00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: discussed earlier. Ventyl is a system depressant. It reduces our 485 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: ability to fight back in any way. You think about 486 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: the genesis of fentyl. Fentyl is a precursor for anesthesia 487 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: or what happens when you go under. You know, anybody 488 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: in the audience that's ever ever had surgery, you know 489 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: they tell you to count backwards and you never get 490 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: past about ninety five. It's meant to relax you. It 491 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: sedate you. It puts you in a position where you know, 492 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: you can imagine, I don't care how big you are, 493 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: if you've got fentyl on board, you're not going to 494 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: be able to fight back very well. You might initially, 495 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: but as it begins to take hold in your system, 496 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: you're going to become very sleepy and passive. And so 497 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: you take you and you combine that with a smooth 498 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: surface of a literature, like a tie that doesn't it's 499 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: not going to leave this big, bold pattern with a 500 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: deep furrow. You're not necessarily going to see it at 501 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: the scene unless that tie has been left in place 502 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: and tied in the rear very tightly, which I've had 503 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: a number of cases like that in the past. But 504 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: if the tie is removed, and you might see a 505 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: little bit of discoloration, it might be kind of red, 506 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: but it's not gonna like just really jump out at you. 507 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: And another thing you have to think about is and 508 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that folks really consider this, 509 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: but when you're out on the scene, when you conduct 510 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: the examination of a body, you're not in the best circumstances. 511 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: You're certainly not in the best circumstances when it comes 512 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: to lighting, even if you're you are in somebody's apartment. Okay, 513 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us have ever walked into 514 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: a room and it's very dimly lit, depended upon what 515 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: that person likes in their home. But you take a 516 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: body and you go to the morgue with it, Well, 517 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: the lighting in most marks now is surgical grade, and 518 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: trust me, there are very few shadows in this environment. 519 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: You have lights coming at you from all over the place, 520 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: and it's to blow out any kind of shadows so 521 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: you can appreciate and see everything. It's very brightly lead 522 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 1: in there. When you get a body back to the morgue, 523 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to pick up on little nuances 524 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: in the morgue. In that environment, you're not going to 525 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: be able to pick up on at the scene. You're 526 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 1: also kneeling over bodies. It might be hot. You're not 527 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: paying as close attention at the scene as you will, 528 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: But when you're in the morgue and you have that 529 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: body laid on that table in front of you, you 530 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: are fully vested at that moment. We later find out 531 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: that Kelly's death was a result of a custody dispute 532 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: between Littlefield and Kelly. Littlefield claimed Kelly was abusive. Kelly 533 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: claimed that Littlefield would not allow him to see the 534 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: daughter alone and would try to stay in his home 535 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: during their visit time. He called it parenting time. Who 536 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: would want to stay in his house during the parenting time? 537 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: So the other thing that we find out, which I 538 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: find very interesting and kind of explains things about the cocaine, 539 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: knowing that he died from fentnyl and that it was 540 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: cocaine that was found. We're looking at a good case 541 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: of staging here, aren't we. Joe. Oh my gosh, you 542 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: hit it right on the head. You're absolutely right, Jackie. 543 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: You have a group of people, a confederacy if you will, 544 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: of three that are purposed, aren't they. They're going out, 545 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: they've entered into an agreement together in order to bring 546 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: about this guy's death, and they've gone so far as 547 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: to not just, you know, at the end, perpetrate a 548 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: homicide here, but to set it up so that it 549 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: appears as though that this man, this father odeed himself. 550 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: And not only are there drugs involved, but we've got 551 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: this mysterious bag of cocaine that's found at the scene, 552 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: So that means that somebody was purposed to go out 553 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,239 Speaker 1: and acquire cocaine. The investigators revealed, you know, in this 554 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: particular case, that these three went out and look that 555 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: the daughter running when she's on the stand, she never, 556 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: and I mean never denies the fact that she's got 557 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: a meth problem, and she's you know, little Phil's attorney 558 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, ask her directly, do you have a problem 559 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: with drug addiction? And she never denied it at all, 560 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: never ever, And so she's connected in this world. So 561 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, what are you gonna do. Well, you go 562 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: out and you purchase a bag of cocaine at one time, 563 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: purchase perhaps, and you set this man up because you've 564 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: been going into his house clandestinely, by the way, and 565 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: poisoning his food. So you figure you're going to finish 566 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: him off. And oh, just just to really drive home 567 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: the point, we're going to have a bag of cocaine 568 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: We're going to go out and purchase and stick it 569 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: under his body so that when the authorities show up, 570 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the corner. You walk into the room 571 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: and you start to do the examination of the body, 572 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: and oh, wow, what do we find here? Well, you 573 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: find this bag of white pa or you don't know 574 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: what it is, because contrary to what you folks think, 575 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, we can't just look at a bag of 576 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: white powder and say that is in fact cocaine or 577 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: whatever type of agent. That we have to test it 578 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: to confirm it. So you're telling me, you stick your 579 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: little finger in it and taste it like everybody else, 580 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: does on TV. No, that does not happen. My god, 581 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: if anybody ever, please nobody do that. That is the 582 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: most ridiculous thing. I hate that Hollywood actually demonstrates that 583 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: because some people think that they can do that, and 584 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: it is not something that anyone should ever try to 585 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: do at all. That has to be tested and you 586 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: need to handle it with gloves. Fentnyl in particular is 587 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: nasty in a sense. You know, they remember they put 588 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: it in patches and we're not talking about fentyl relative 589 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: to this bag, but there's fentyl involved in this case. 590 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: It's transdermal, which means you can absorb it through your skin. 591 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: Method is the same way as well. It is transdermal, 592 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: very dangerous stuff, and so you can actually get a 593 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: dosage of this stuff just by handling it with your 594 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: bare hands. And the fact that they went out and 595 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: purchased these drugs to plant them at the scene relative 596 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: to this man and to try to paint him in 597 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: this light that he oedeed. What's fascinating I think to 598 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: me is that you know, I talked at length about 599 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: the tie, that a tie was used, and it's it 600 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: kind of you know, drills down into this relationship that 601 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: Littlefield had with Francis Kelly. I think the fact that 602 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: it wasn't just a tie, it was his favorite tie. 603 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: And you think about that just for a second. Is 604 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: this a statement that's being made by the perpetrator? You know? 605 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many ties Francis Kelly owned. 606 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he only had one. Maybe it 607 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: was a tie that at some point in time someone 608 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: who dearly loved him went out and purchased and gave 609 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: to him, but it was identified as his favorite tie, 610 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: and that it was actually utilized as a means to 611 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: bring about his death. And I think that when you 612 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: look at this in the final analysis and you think 613 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: about that, was it used as a statement that, you know, 614 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to whatever means necessary to keep 615 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: you separated from this child that you have fathered with me. 616 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: And just to kind of put an exclamation point on it, 617 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to grab your favorite tie. I'm going to 618 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: wrap it around your neck, and I'm going to choke 619 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: you until you're deceased, Because not only to have the 620 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: tie around your neck, I've also got fighting on in 621 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: your system now, so you're going to be manageable, and 622 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: there's some indication he may have attempted to fight back 623 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: because he's got some bruises that were found. It looks 624 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: as though he's sustained some type of blunt force trauma 625 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: and maybe initially he did attempt to fight back. But 626 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: when you're fighting, just think about this. Not only you 627 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: fighting against this chemical that's in your system that is, 628 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: by the way, compromising your ability to breathe. Now you've 629 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: got something wrapped around your neck that's an external factor 630 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: that is preventing you from uptaking oxygen. He's in a 631 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: desperate fight for his life at that moment time. A Running, 632 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: in her statement from the stand actually stated that when 633 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: they arrived they made entry into Francis Kelly's home, they 634 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: found him on the floor and he was experiencing labored breathing. 635 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: And you know, it makes you think, did they use 636 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: that tie on him on the floor in order to 637 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: asphyxiate him in that position, or did they do it 638 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: on the sofa which they eventually moved his body to. 639 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: That goes to this idea of staging, when you take 640 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: a body and you place it into a position that 641 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: is other than as it was initially found. And you 642 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: plant cocaine beneath the body, that's that A courses is 643 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: a sign that there was thought that went into this, 644 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: that they wanted to make this appear as something other 645 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: than it was. He had enough drugs on board so 646 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: that when they did enter the apartment that it had 647 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: literally knocked him down to his knees and he was 648 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: laboring to breathe at that time, and I guess it's 649 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: at that time that they decided to just finish him off. Well. 650 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: The verdict is in on this case. Joe and the 651 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: daughter Logan Runyan, was charged with murder and conspiracy to 652 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: commit murder, and her boyfriend Walker was charged with two 653 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: counts of conspiracy to commit murder. Now Walker pleaded guilty 654 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: and was sentenced to ten years in prison. Logan Runyan 655 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty six years in prison and another 656 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: six suspended, and forty two year old Heidi Littlefield was 657 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: sentenced to one hundred and fifteen years in the state prison, 658 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 1: which included sixty years for murder, twenty years for attempted poisonings, 659 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: and thirty five years for conspiracy to commit murder resulting 660 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: in a death. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.