1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murder requires specific intent. It 2 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: can be implied or specific, but there must be intent 3 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: to do the act. But what about a recent spate 4 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: of murders committed while the killer is sound asleep, And 5 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: believe it or not, some jurdars are actually buying it. 6 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Am I understanding this? A 7 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: jury actually equits someone of murder because they claim that 8 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: they slept. Walk through the entire or deal. First of all, 9 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. They A'm not on the 10 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: one with her. There's something going on with a young 11 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We 12 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: need amberance and police please, Okay, we'll have a dearly emergency. 13 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: There's a young boy and my grandson four years old. 14 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is locked up 15 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: in a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming. Wow, 16 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: that must be some sound sleeper because everybody is screaming 17 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: and daddy's still asleep. Listen to a little bit more 18 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: of that nine Monthe call and tell me what's going on. 19 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. My daughter's up there screaming. So her 20 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: husband is in a in his study. He can't. He 21 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: won't come out. And now there's a young boy, his son, 22 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: four years old. We can't wake him up. Okay, and 23 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. We need an emergency 24 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: as a factist possible, yes down that follows me. Okay, 25 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: I will have information for you. Someone else is going 26 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: to get him on the way. Okay, is it your grandson? 27 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: My grandson is four years old. My daughter is trying 28 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: to break into a door. We don't know if he's 29 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: alive or not alive. Well, I can answer that much. 30 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: He's dead. The four year old little boy is dad. 31 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: You can hear screaming and wailing in the background. With 32 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: me an all star panel to break you down and 33 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: put it back together again. But first of all, let 34 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: me ask Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: joining US forensics expert. The defense says, daddy's asleep. Hold on, Cheryl, 36 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,279 Speaker 1: Satellite down Christy, Missouri with me Emmy Award winning investigative 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: reporter Christie. Is that correct? Well, you know, if you'd 38 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: like to believe the defense team, that's what they're claiming, 39 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: sleep walking, right, But these are some tragic tales to 40 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,399 Speaker 1: this evening in fact, it's the daughter Alexa has had 41 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: to fight her father off. This is just almost too 42 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: much for me to take in. Guys, let me finish 43 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: introducing our panel with me Doctor Mark R. Pressman, Sleep 44 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: and Scientific Evidence specialist Pressman Sleep and Science Forensics dot 45 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: com and author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific 46 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: Evidence and FYI. He's an expert on many of these 47 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: sleepwalking cases. James Shellnut twenty seven years on law Enforcement, 48 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Police Force, now Lawyer. You can find him at Shelna 49 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: Lawfirm dot com. Doctor jen Mann therapist host on VH one. 50 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: She's the host of Doctor Jen Show on series x 51 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: SIM She's an author of The Relationship Fix. Wow. I 52 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: don't have enough paper to give you her resume, but 53 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: doctor jen Man Therapist is joining us, as I said earlier. 54 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute let me know 55 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: when her satellite issue it is up. You missed your 56 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: first question, Cheryl, if you were in a sleep Cheryl McCollum, 57 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert 58 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. I can't wait to hear what he's 59 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: got to say about this. He's a medical examiner for 60 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida, and you can find him 61 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: at pathcaremed dot com. And I already went to hire 62 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winner investigative reporter Christy Missouri, President of Successful 63 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: Strategies PR and Crisis Communications, And I would call this 64 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: a crisis. Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if you could 65 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: hear us. We could not hear you. But I just 66 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: played part of a nine one one call, and just 67 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: for you, Cheryl, I'm gonna play it again. Take a 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: listen to this nine one one call. I'm not in 69 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: a one weekday. There's something going on with a young 70 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We 71 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: need ambulance and police. Please, okay, we'll have a dearly emergency. 72 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: Did a young boy and my grandchon all years old. 73 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is rocked up 74 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming. 75 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: And more than I'm only on call, Please chack and 76 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's 77 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: up there screaming. So her husband is in a in 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: his a study. He can't he won't come out. And 79 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: now there's a young boy, his son four years old. 80 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: We can't wake him up, okay, and I don't know 81 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: what's going on. We need emergency as fast as possible. Yes, 82 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: down that hollow is me Okay, I will have information 83 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: for you. Someone else is going to get him on 84 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: the way. Okay, sir, How old is your Is this 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter's 86 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: trying to break into a girl. We don't know if 87 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: he's alive or not alive. Stay on the phone. Are 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: you kidding me? Uh, Cheryl mccollumy, he needs to go 89 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: break that door down. You hear screaming and wailing in 90 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the background. Cheryl McCollum. I'm gonna go to Christy, Missouri 91 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: in just a moment for all the facts. But are 92 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: you buying this? Are you actually buying this that the 93 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: peer is asleep? He needs to break the door down, 94 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: And no, I don't believe he's asleep. You can hear 95 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: everybody in that house screaming and having a fit and 96 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: calling for more help, and he's going to sleep through it. 97 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I mean, Cheryl, as you know, 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: I have slept walked, I sleep talk, I sleep walk, 99 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: But it doesn't take a lot to wake me up. 100 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: I don't get very far. It's my point. I just 101 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe you can go in 102 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: a room, lock the door, murder your four year old 103 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: child while everybody's still trying to bam the door down 104 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: and screaming, and you sleep through it all. To Christy Missourich, 105 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: investigative reporter and president of Successful Strategies PR in Crisis Communications, 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: let me just start with this case. Start at the beginning, 107 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: pick it up at the nine on one call. What happened? 108 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: So it all starts with the daughter blasting into the 109 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: peri the bedroom, seeing you know, mommy, hello hall wa 110 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: wait how old is the daughter? Wait a minute, wait 111 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: a minute? How old is the daughter? Mid teens? Right, 112 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: he has two older children and a tenure. Okay, So 113 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: the team girl blast in into her parents' bedroom. Okay, 114 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: seeing mommy, help us, help us. Daddy's trying to hurt us. 115 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: She tells police that her dad came into her room 116 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: that night wearing a Halloween mask. No no, no, no, 117 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait yes, stop everything. Did you hear that, Jackie? 118 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Okay? Wearing a Halloween mask? It 119 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: will be a cold day in h double l that 120 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: I believe this guy slept through finding a Halloween mask. 121 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: First of all, right, there, how am I going to 122 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: find a Halloween costume that's not gonna happen until next 123 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: Halloween at Spirit Halloween dot com? And I go out 124 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: and buy one. The lord knows where Halloween costume is, 125 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: but he gets a Halloween costume and puts the mask 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: on around his head. Correct, Okay, I just wanted to 127 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: make sure I understood that. Go ahead, Chrissy Missouri. I 128 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what happens next. So she's asleep. 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: She's asleep, and she wakes up days and confused to 130 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: her dad on top of her, wearing a Halloween mask, 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: pushing her head between her bed, and what do you 132 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: mean on top of her, on top of her, to 133 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: molest her, on top of her, to kill her, to 134 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: try to smother her, pushing her head between the bed 135 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: and the wall. You know, if your bed's up to 136 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: the corner where the wall meets the joint. He's trying 137 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: to force her head in between the bed and the wall, 138 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: trying to smother her. She passes out. Moments later, here 139 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: screams from her brother. She sees her father attacking her brother, 140 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: she bites him, tries to rip him off of the brother. 141 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: That's when she goes to get her mom. The mom 142 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: thinks that her husband's having a nervous breakdown and is 143 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: unaware how serious four year old Blake's injuries are. That's 144 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: when the grandpa gets riled up and called the police. Now, 145 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: remember I told you the daughter Alexis fights her father 146 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: off of her brother, and the dad takes off Halloween 147 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: mask and toll and barricades himself in the home office. 148 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: So he leaves the bedroom Christie, Missouri, and goes and 149 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: hides in the home office. That's right, that's right. Okay. 150 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: You know, to doctor Mark R. Pressman, sleep scientific evidence specialist, 151 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific Evidence, Doctor Pressman, 152 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: there is no way that this guy sleepwalking. I don't 153 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: care what science may say, and you know, I just 154 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: don't How could he do all that and still be asleep? Well, 155 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: to say that he's asleep, it's not exactly true. This 156 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: is not normal sleep. This is sort of a weird 157 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: mixture between deep sleep and waking that occurs because of 158 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: some problems in the brain of sleepwalkers. So so sleepwalkers, 159 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: he would not expect him to act just like anyone 160 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: else who's asleep. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take 161 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at w r AL. This 162 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: is Aaron Hartness. Joseph Mitchell is accused of doing something 163 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: almost unimaginable to most people. Deputies believe he suffocated his 164 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: four year old son, Blake, and then stabbed himself multiple times. 165 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: As Sir Twarren says, Mitchell's other two children say they 166 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: woke up with something over their faces and had to 167 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: fend off their father. Lieutenant Stan Harris says at some 168 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: point during the attack, Mitchell's wife ran to another part 169 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: of the house trying to get help for her children. 170 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,479 Speaker 1: As sirch Twarren says, the family was in deep financial 171 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: trouble and their home was about to be seized by 172 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: a bank. Whether that played a major role or minor role, 173 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: we're just not a little to say right now. Poor 174 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: documents say Mitchell's wife didn't know the extent of the 175 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: financial trouble. Sir Twarren's show. Investigators took computers from the home, 176 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: along with copies of life insurance policies, including policies for 177 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: all three children. Investigators also took a mask and a knife. 178 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: Hold on, I can't write that fast. I need to 179 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: learn shorthand. But what's really jumping out of me, doctor 180 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: jen Man? A wife had no idea about the finances. 181 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: Why is that still happening in twenty twenty one? Me? 182 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: I heard the word life and sharans connected to policy. 183 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: All right, so and I heard financial troubles. Did you 184 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: hear all that, doctor jen I assure to Nancy, And 185 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: you would be amazed, in this day and age, at 186 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: how many couples organize their finances where one person, usually 187 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: the person who everyone decides this kind of quote unquote 188 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: better at those things, handles them and the other person 189 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: is in the dark. And I always encourage couples that 190 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: even if one person is handling the logistics of actually 191 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: pressing the button to send the check or actually literally 192 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: writing the check, that the other persons be involved so 193 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: they know what's going on. But you'd be amazed at 194 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: how often one partner is in the job. And you know, 195 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: Jackie's over here rolling her eyes. Again, let me just 196 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: say it's not always a woman. Do you know, my 197 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: brother with a successful career, very successful career, brags he 198 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to use an ATM, and his wife 199 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: handles all the finances. When he says that, I'm so 200 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: proud of my children they just turned thirteen, doctor Jenn, 201 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: and they all look at each other and it's not 202 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: a secret. I give him a lot of grief about it, 203 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: but it happens. He brags he does not know how 204 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: to use the ATEN. I'd give him fifty cents and 205 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: tell him to go buy some candy. Really, so okay, 206 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: doctor Jen, that's the first thing. But Shelna Jim Shellna, 207 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: twenty seven years Metro Major Case Now lawyer, life insurance policy. 208 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? It was like a siren blaring 209 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: in my ear? Yeah, life insurance policies on the children 210 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: and the wife, So yeah, I mean, you know, motive 211 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: honestly is you know, doesn't have to be proven in 212 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: a case. But when you have a case like this 213 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: where somebody saying, oh I didn't mean to do it 214 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: or it was sleepwalking, being able to show a potential 215 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: motive like this is huge. You're in a financial despair, 216 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: you're about to lose everything. There is a way for 217 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: you to get this money, and it's through a life 218 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: insurance Paul see I think that goes a long way 219 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: towards helping a jury make a decision, at least at 220 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: this irrational jury. And to you medical examiner for the 221 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: entire state of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher, right in your 222 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: back yard in the shadows of Disney. I don't know 223 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: if you recall this over in celebration where the father 224 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: was going under with all of his businesses. He was 225 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: committing fraud on the government for like one of those 226 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: muscle rehab places where after you are injured you're supposed 227 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: to get rehabbed. He was cheating the government like nobody's business. 228 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: They found out, everything started going down, down, down. He 229 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: drove straight down to Celebration, Florida and murdered his wife 230 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: and children rather than anybody find out they're all going bust. 231 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: This is not a knee story, doctor Gallagher. Remember that's case. 232 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: It was recessed. Oh absolutely, And if anyone has been 233 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: a celebration, it's a very high exclusive neighborhood in the 234 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: Disney area where how are millions and millions of dollars 235 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: each and of course image would be one of the 236 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: main pressing factors there. If you're going to live, you know, 237 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher, I got myself and the children and my 238 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: husband all in the car on a vacation. I had 239 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: an underlying motive. I went down there to see this 240 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: location and see and it's exactly as you just said. 241 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: That's what we call where I come from, living high 242 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: on the hog, way, too high on the hog. And 243 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: then when it all started falling apart, it was better 244 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: to kill his family than admit financial ruin. I want 245 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: to go back to a special guest, doctor Mark R. Pressman. 246 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Pressman, I want you to take a listen to 247 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: our cut number nine. This is Ariel Clay at w 248 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: R A L. Christine Pierrolini broke down when recalling the 249 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: night her four year old son was suffocated. I was 250 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: scared to touch him first because he didn't look great 251 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: Lantosha's arm he didn't. February Joseph Mitchell's attorneys say he 252 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: was sleepwalking the night of the incident and question Pierrolini 253 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: about trouble Mitchell had at night before Blake's death, including 254 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: one time when he reared back to hit her employer. No, 255 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: I believe so interesting to you, doctor Pressman. The only 256 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: time he had. He has these episodes where he commits 257 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: X in his sleep. They're always domestic violence. You don't 258 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: think that's a coincidence, Well, it certainly could be. My 259 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: approach is very different. I want to know whether his 260 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: behaviors that night are consistent with what we know sleepwalkers 261 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: can or cannot do. And so typically sleepwalking violence, the 262 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: sleepwalker does not go to the victim. You know, all 263 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: this sort of cartoonish stuff about the sleepwalker walking with 264 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: his arms out and be a knife in his hand, 265 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: and you know, yelling kill, kill, kill while he looks 266 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: for revenge or something. That doesn't happen. In almost all 267 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: of the cases of sleepwalking violence, the victim actually comes 268 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: to the sleepwalker. Fleepwalkers up and about, and the victim 269 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: basically tries to get them to turn around, or they 270 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: block them, or they do something and they accidentally trigger 271 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: sleepwalking violence, which is actually defensive because the sleepwalker doesn't 272 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: recognize fleepwalker can't recognize faces, They don't know who this 273 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: person is. This person is just a potential, a potential 274 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: threat that they have to deal with on a very 275 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: primitive level. And also there are no reported cases ever 276 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: a violence of more than one person at a time. 277 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: So the fact that he came into the room very 278 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: unusual and and abnormal. And the fact that there are 279 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: three victims all at the same time has never been 280 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: reported and is not consistent with what we know about sleep. 281 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: And coincidentally, although I couldn't get you to commit to 282 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: a coincidence, very wise of you, doctor. Coincidentally, there were 283 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: three life insurance policies as well. Okay, doctor, pressman, I 284 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: hope you're sitting down. You many to lay down for this. 285 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: Let's hear cut ten. This is tamer gives ABC eleven. 286 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: The jurors we spoke with are so concerned about the 287 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: public's reaction to their verdict that they asked to remain anonymous, 288 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: and they tell us if manslaughter had been on the table, 289 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Mitchell would still be in jail. On one side 290 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: of the courtroom, a relief defendant, on the other, a 291 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: grieving mother, and inside the jury box twelve conflicted men 292 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: and women. It was the reasonable doubt that they gotten 293 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: as men off. This jur who asked us not to 294 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: reveal her name or show her face, says initial to lead. 295 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: There were a few holdoubts, but ultimately the panel agreed 296 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: Joseph Mitchell did not act with malice, intent, or premeditation 297 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: that's required for a first second degree murder conviction. Our 298 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: justice system failed this family. I don't think the jury failed. 299 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: I think we made the decision we had to make 300 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: based on the laws and the instructions we were given. Well, 301 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: they can tell themselves that when they try to put 302 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: their head on the pillow to you, Sean McCollum, you 303 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: know when a jury or a jr. Has to hide 304 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: their face when they leave the courthouse, when they don't 305 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: want their name known, they know they did the wrong thing. 306 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: Here's what drives me crazy about what she said. She 307 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: doesn't believe her own verdict. Why in the world would 308 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: you say there's reasonable doubt when there's not with you? 309 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: That's insane to me. This guy did not go to 310 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: bed with a mask and a knife. He waited until 311 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: the wife was asleep, and by the house of sleep 312 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: he went and attacked two children and then fled after 313 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: the murder, locking himself in a room for self protection, 314 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: and then claimed, oh, I didn't know what I was doing. 315 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: I was sleepwalking. And my question for that is, had 316 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: he ever sleepwalked before? Had he sought medical help for it? 317 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: What steps did he take to prevent this? I bet 318 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: nothing because it was pre planned. I bet nothing because 319 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: there was no previous sleep walking problem unless he tried 320 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: to pull one over on his wife. And for ten 321 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: on an earlier occasion, he had been sleepwalking crime stories 322 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. For those of you that did not 323 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: hear it, the jury down. This guy not guilty. Blake Mitchell, 324 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: the little boy who lost his life just four years old. 325 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: His dad Joseph Anthony Mitchell, fifty there in Durham, North Carolina, 326 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 1: has walked free. But that's really just the tip of 327 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: the iceberg, you know. And I want to go back 328 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: out to you. James Shellnutt, twenty seven years Metro Major 329 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: case law enforcement now lawyer. James. The judge specifically instructs 330 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: the jury in every single criminal felony case, you are 331 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: to use and apply your common sense, almost verbatim, and 332 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: you are to reach a verdict to a moral and 333 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: reasonable certainty, moral and reasonable certainty, reasonable head, moral heart. 334 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: In other words, if you believe it, If you believe 335 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: he did this thing, then the state has carried their burden. 336 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: Yes or no? Shall not? Oh? I agree, And you 337 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: know I find it odd for this jury to say, well, 338 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: if manslaughter would have been on the table, then he 339 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't have left the courthouse. He'd went to jail. You know, 340 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: malice of forethought can be formed in the blink of 341 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: an eye. It doesn't take days or weeks or hours 342 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: of planning. It can happen in an instant and quite frankly, 343 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: sometimes you just get bad juries. You get bad juries 344 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: that don't use common sense. You get bad juries that 345 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: may not understand what they're doing, and you get bad 346 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: juries that sometimes are anti police, anti prosecution. And it 347 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: just seems like this was a bad jury that made 348 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: a bad decision on a case where a man should 349 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: have been convicted of murder. This jury, reeks, guys, that 350 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: was in North Carolina. Let's cross a country to Phoenix, Arizona. 351 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut one. This is Brianna Whitney. 352 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: Just heard her knelling and you could hear her rolling 353 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: around in the rocks. Scott Phalater's next door neighbors jolted 354 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: away everyone outside to see if we could hear if 355 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: somebody needed help or something, and then the screaming quit. 356 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: Police got to the house to find Phalater waiting for them. 357 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: His wife, Yarmila, dead in the pool, forty four stab 358 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: wounds to her body. Later told them he had been 359 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: sleepwalking and couldn't remember anything, but the next door neighbor 360 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: told police he watched later stab his wife, drag her 361 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: to the pool, hold her head underwater, and then quieting 362 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: the dog, going up the stairs, turning on a light, 363 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: taking clothes off, going down to the garage, getting things 364 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: out of the garage. He dashed the bloody knife and 365 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: his bloody clothes in his car, all while his twelve 366 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: and fifteen year old children were asleep in the house. 367 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends there at True Crime Arizona. Another 368 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: sleepwalking murder. Okay, guys, forty four stab wounds. Take a 369 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition Our Cut two. 370 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: It was a murder that shocked the nation. The notorious 371 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: sleepwalking killer Scott Plater, stabbed his wife forty four times, 372 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: then drowned her in the pool. His defense, he was sleepwalking. 373 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: I breathed the fight. When Phoenix cops got there, they 374 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: found Flatter at the top of the stairs in his pajamas. 375 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: He made remarks to the stead of what's going on? 376 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: What are you doing in my house? That is all 377 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: about Scott Later. Let me go back to Chrissy, miss 378 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter. What happened in Arizona. It 379 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: depends on what tale you want to believe, whether you 380 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: want to believe Scott Later or the neighbors that watched 381 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: a methodical murderer in action, you know, as a dead 382 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Let's start with the neighbors, Christie, right, So they hear 383 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: some noises in the neighbor's backyard and look over the 384 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: fence to find your milla, create a laying on the 385 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: ground that they watched Scott walk very calmly back into 386 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: the house and as mentioned in the clip, you know, 387 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: turn lights off and on as he's making his way 388 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: through the house changing clothes. But one detail that came 389 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: out in testimony is that greg Coon's the neighbor watched 390 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: Scott's Philater done a pair of gloves before he comes 391 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: back outside and drags his body his wife's bodies over 392 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: to the pool and drowns her. The very critical fact 393 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: removes the gloves, takes off his clothes, puts them in 394 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: a tupperware container along with the bloody knife. When the 395 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: cops show up, he's standing at the top of the 396 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: stairs with a crisp white T shirt eye. Okay, Cheryl McCallum, 397 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert jump 398 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: in feet first, premeditation Again, everything he did after the 399 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: murder was to save himself. So you're talking about a 400 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: calculated I've got to have gloves. I've got a drown 401 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: her to make sure she's dead, because she's not dead 402 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: from the stab wounds. Now I've got to hide the 403 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: clothes that I was wearing when I committed the crime. 404 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to change clothes so I looked fresh and clean, 405 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: so they'll never suspect me. This is not somebody out 406 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: of it asleep that doesn't know what they're doing. These 407 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: are criminals acting out crimes we see every day the 408 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: exact same way. I mean, don't you think doctor Tim 409 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: Gallagher that after forty four stabs, the jarring of the stabs, 410 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: crunching through bone, cartilage, tendons, muscle, human organs would have 411 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: woken him up? Well, you know, my patients really are 412 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: not you know, alive. But I would think that by 413 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: using common sense, which all of us on the panel have, 414 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: that yes, one stab when one poke, even a poke 415 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: in the eye rop or a sharp poke in the 416 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: chest would wake me up, certainly, forty four stab wounds 417 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't wake me. No, I mean the defendant, the husband, 418 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: the jarring motion of forty four stabs, dragging your wife 419 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: around changing clothes, and then when the police to get there, 420 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: you're like, what happened? I mean to doctor Mark Pressman, 421 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: joining us author, sleepwalking, criminal behavior and reliable scientific evidence. 422 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: I must make a confession. My nephew, a real brainiac, 423 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: as a child, would sleepwalk. And I remember one episode. 424 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: We went all went to Jackson Hall, Wyoming for my parents' 425 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: fiftieth wedding anniversary, and that night my nephew was sleeping 426 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: in the room with me and I heard the door 427 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: opening and I looked up and immediately sprung up. This 428 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: is when I was still a prosecutor. I ran out 429 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: in the hall and there is my little nephew, maybe 430 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: nine years old, walking down the hall, and I called 431 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: his name, and he didn't turn around. I called his 432 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: name again, he didn't turn around. I ran to him 433 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: and got in front of him and grabbed him by 434 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: the shoulders. He looked so afraid and he ran back 435 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: to the room, jumped in the bed and hunched up 436 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: and put a pillow over his head. He was afraid 437 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: he was asleep, but when I touched his shoulders, he 438 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: was groggy. But he ran back to the room because 439 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: he looked around in the hall and didn't understand what 440 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: was happening around him. But by the time he got 441 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: back to the room, he was awakened from his sleepwalking. 442 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: So explain to me, you're the expert, doctor Pressman, how 443 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: someone could conceivably stab their wife forty four times and 444 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: claimed they were asleep. Wow. I was the prosecution expert, 445 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: so I don't think he did. At trial, I presented 446 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 1: sixty different instances of behaviors he had. This was Remember 447 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: this trial was very unusual because the next door neighbor 448 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: was in the backyard watching what was going on for 449 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: a good twenty minutes. You know, light's going and off. 450 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: That's evidence that you never have in cases like this. 451 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: So the important thing to know about a real sleepwalker 452 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: is real sleepwalker does not have what we can higher 453 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: cognitive function. Real sleepwalker cannot form a memory, cannot retrieve 454 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: a memory. A real sleepwalker cannot plan. A real sleepwalker 455 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: cannot form an intent. Real sleepwalker has no social social abilities. 456 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: That part of the brain that has those you know, 457 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: where those abilities reside is turned off in the sleepwalker 458 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: is deactivated. So if the sleepwalker does something that can 459 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: only happen with that part of the brain activated, then 460 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: they're not asleep. They're not sleepwalker, they're awake. Time Stories 461 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about murders committed 462 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: while they defendant is allegedly asleep. You were just hearing 463 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: about Scott Felder. You'll be happy to know that he 464 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: was actually convicted. But I want to talk to you 465 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: about another case, the case of Deborah Lazaraine. To Christy Missourich, 466 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, President of Successful Strategies pr 467 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: in Crisis Communications, tell me about the case of Deborah Lazaraine. 468 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: So this is again the children are involved, and they're 469 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: really the ones that kind of perpetuate the nine one 470 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: one calls Raymond Lazarine calls his son Nathan. It's the 471 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: middle of the day, afternoon, urging him to come to 472 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: the house. He said he's having a dream that he 473 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: shot and killed his wife. It was not a dream. 474 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Nathan arrives, he finds his mother, Deborah dead on the floor, 475 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: shell casing scattered all around her. She shot a half 476 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: dozen times, two shots to her head in her back. 477 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: He finds his father in the bedroom with a gun 478 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. When the police arrived, he tells him he 479 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: doesn't know what was happening. He was dreaming. But here's 480 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: the thing, you know. When the cops talked to Nathan, 481 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Nathan said, look, my father's threatened my mom in the past. 482 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: He's very controlling. We never filed a complaint, didn't know 483 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: if it would rise to this. And at the time 484 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: of this shooting, Raymond Lazarine was under psyche yet for 485 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: care and taking prescriptions for psychotic episodes. Straight back out 486 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, director of the Coal Case 487 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: Research Institute, didn't O. J. Simpson have a dream that 488 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: he killed Nicole Brown? I believe. So let me tell 489 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: you something easy, funny, how these dreams were If it 490 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: weren't so crap. I guess they're all clairvoyant, Cheryl, because 491 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: all these dreams come true. They do kill their wives, 492 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: and they know exactly how they kill them. It wasn't like, oh, 493 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: man and I had a horrible dream. She fell off 494 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,239 Speaker 1: a cliff. No, you knew you shot her. Amazing, and 495 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: you just happen to be sitting there with a weapon 496 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: in your hand when your son finally shows up. I 497 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: mean here, it's just baffling. And again, if it weren't 498 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: so tragic, it would be laughable. The level of bs 499 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: that this arises to is just unbelievable. Everybody on this 500 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: panel that is married to a man knows that knows 501 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: the time they couldn't find a mask or gloves or 502 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: bins or phone numbers, they always come to us, but 503 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: not these us. Well that's a mop and a brand, 504 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: much less a mop of a broom, But not these guys. 505 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: Oh he found a Halloween mask or what Halloween? The 506 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: other one has a pair of gloves sitting on ready. 507 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: The other one's got bins. He could put bloody clothes 508 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: in garbage. It's complete, garbage, complete. I can't believe juries 509 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: are falling for this guys. We're talking about the case 510 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: of Raymond Lazarine, his wife Deborah Lazarine. Take a listen 511 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: to our cut thirteen Kaylee Harteng at ABC's America this morning. 512 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: This morning, an unusual murder trial is underway in Texas. 513 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: For a man who blames his sleepwalking for the death 514 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: of his wife. In December twenty thirteen, Raymond Lazarine called 515 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: his son and told him he had just had a 516 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: dream that he shot and killed his wife of thirty 517 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: five years, Deborah Lazarine. But it wasn't a dream. Lazarine 518 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: admits he shot Deborah half a dozen times. He claims 519 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: it was involuntary on account that he was asleep. There 520 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: are other witnesses over there that have seen the manifestation 521 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: of a sleep disorder, and we thought that would be 522 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: important for the jury. Tone joining me special guest doctor 523 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable 524 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence, and an expert witness in the case against 525 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. What can you tell us, doctor, Well, first 526 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: of all, they got it a little bit wrong. It 527 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: actually was not a sleepwalking defense. It was a disorder 528 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: that may appear externally very similar, but is even rarer 529 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: and actually scarier. It's called rem behavior disorder RAM is 530 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: rapid eye movement sleep. Most people are where that's the 531 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: kind of sleep when you typically have your vivid dreaming 532 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: and okay, wait a minute, let me understand how finally 533 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: you're splitting this hair. You're saying, this is not a 534 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense. This is an M defense. You have ri 535 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: em rapid eye movement. So everyone has when you're asleep, 536 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: everyone has RAM sleep. And what brief he is saying 537 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: he was asleep when he killed him. He's claiming he 538 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: was in REM sleep at the time. And there's one 539 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: Could you tell me what difference does that make asleep 540 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: when he did It's there's an enormous difference in why 541 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: it occurs and what kind of behaviors someone who has 542 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: M behavior disorder can have. One of the least known 543 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: things about normal REM sleeper is that people who are 544 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: or are dreaming are unable to move okay for all 545 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: intensive purposes. Everybody who has who dreams is essentially paralyzed 546 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: while they dream. If you weren't paralyzed, you might be 547 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: able to essentially act out your dream. And just think 548 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: of the last dream you had, what would happen if 549 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: you acted that out. So what he's saying is for 550 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: some reason problem in the brain. That we actually know 551 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: what is wrong in the brain in these cases, that 552 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: the mechanism that causes the paralysis didn't work, and for 553 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: some reason he got up and retrieve the gun and 554 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: search for his wife, etcetera, etcetera. But none of that 555 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: is possible. Yes, I'm sorry to ask you a very 556 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: simple This is a yes no doctor. In the case 557 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: you must Yes, I've got you on the hot seat. 558 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: You're on cross in my mind anyway, Yeah, you got 559 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,879 Speaker 1: You want me to answer yes or no. I never 560 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: answer yes or no, doctor Pressman. Isn't it true that, 561 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, charged in the murder 562 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: of his wife, Deborah Lazarine, in that case you were 563 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: an expert witness. And isn't it true that at the 564 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: time of the death of the wife Lazarine claimed he 565 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 1: was asleep? Well, he claimed he was streaming asleep. Yes, 566 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: he claimed he was in a dream when he did it. Yes. Yes, 567 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: Now I understand you're saying, or I think I do. Anyway, 568 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: they didn't teach me this at law school. You'd have 569 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: to be an MD for this. But I think what 570 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: you're saying is, let me throw this to you, doctor 571 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: gen Man. The parsing of the words is splitting of 572 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: the hair. Is that the defendant claim he had an 573 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: RM rapid eye movement problem, But the reality is he 574 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: still claims he was asleep when he murdered his wife. 575 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: Are you understanding that the same way I'm understanding I am, 576 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know that this guy had a rapid 577 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: eye movement problem. Might think he had a domestic violence 578 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: problem because there is a history of other incidents where 579 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: he was violent with his wife. And as a therapist 580 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: who I don't specialize in fleet disorders, but I have 581 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: a long history working with domestic violence survivors. That's what 582 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: I look at. And there's an incident where his wife 583 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: asked for a glass of water and next thing she knew, 584 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: he was on top of her with a gun under her. 585 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: Check to you, Christie Missourich, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, 586 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: isn't it true that this defendant, the husband, Raymond Lazzarine, 587 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: had a long history of being a nasty and hateful 588 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: and abusive drunk as an abusive alcoholic who regularly threatened 589 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: his wife with violence. Isn't that true? According to his 590 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: son Nathan, he broke down too many instances to list. 591 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: The problem was they never called the police out of 592 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: maybe their own personal fear. But the father would habitually 593 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: pop these prescription medications. And you know, slug back a 594 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: couple of shots of whiskey. You know what's interesting, Cheryl McCollum. 595 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: You know all the years that I prosecuted, including domestic 596 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: homicides and aggas salts, and worked at the Battered Women's 597 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: Center on the hotline. So often it's typically men, but 598 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: it can be women to blame beating their partner on alcohol. 599 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 1: I don't buy that. It's not the alcohol's fault. Alcohol 600 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: makes you more of what you are. So when women say, oh, 601 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: he's a good man when he's not drinking, the problem 602 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: is he ain't never not drinking. And if you drink 603 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: enough again, it heightens who you are. If you are 604 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: fun and just the life of the party. The more 605 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: you drink, the more fun you are. If you're just 606 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: a piece of crap who's looking for a fight, as 607 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: soon as you start drinking, you're just slugging the first 608 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: person you see to you. Christine, mister Rick, what happened 609 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, You don't look he's 610 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: We're all safer to have someone like that behind you 611 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: know what? And to my understanding, multiple defendants across the 612 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: US have gotten off Scott free walks Scott Free, claiming 613 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: sleep disorder sleep walking. Today we examine the case of 614 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: Scott for later who managed to slip through the fingers 615 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: of Lady justice, as compared to Mitchell and Lazarine. Long 616 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: story short, All of these guys, still, whether convicted or acquitted, 617 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: insist they were sleepwalking. Nancy Grace scribed stories, signing off 618 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.