WEBVTT - Extremist Groups (with more Will Sommer)

0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a

0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.840
<v Speaker 1>CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts

0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:09.520
<v Speaker 1>in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.640
<v Speaker 2>And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East

0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive

0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:17.799
<v Speaker 2>our adversaries.

0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.720
<v Speaker 1>Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy

0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.520
<v Speaker 1>theories large and small.

0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated?

0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.840
<v Speaker 1>This is mission implausible.

0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.559
<v Speaker 2>We now continue with part two of our conversation with

0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Will Summer of the Bulwark and the newsletter False Flag.

0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.800
<v Speaker 2>So will you write a lot about conspiracies and conspiracy

0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.840
<v Speaker 2>theories and a lot of conspiracy conspiracy theories center around

0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.120
<v Speaker 2>CIA or the deep state. We got two deep state

0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.240
<v Speaker 2>guys right here, so ask away, what is your what

0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.240
<v Speaker 2>is your favorite conspiracy theory having to do with a

0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.680
<v Speaker 2>deep state or CIA? Or what do we have to

0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.680
<v Speaker 2>play to you? What lies doing conspiracies? Do we have

0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:05.399
<v Speaker 2>to spin or lie to you on?

0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:06.000
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:08.080
<v Speaker 4>I would love to know. Obviously there's been a lot

0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.039
<v Speaker 4>of coverage of the JFK files being released, and I'd

0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:12.960
<v Speaker 4>love to know what y'all make of those in terms

0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.760
<v Speaker 4>of any revelations or not.

0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.440
<v Speaker 1>We've talked to a couple of people about JFK stuff,

0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.200
<v Speaker 1>and at first when we did this podcast, we're like,

0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:23.200
<v Speaker 1>we got to stay away from the JFK thing because

0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.680
<v Speaker 1>the people who get into that are like so deep

0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.600
<v Speaker 1>into it that we're never going to be able to

0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.360
<v Speaker 1>read enough so that we can like fix when they

0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.560
<v Speaker 1>say something that they're completely focused on some little issue

0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.840
<v Speaker 1>that we don't even understand or never followed. Our general

0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.880
<v Speaker 1>view is, listen, we worked in the Clandestine Service for

0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.080
<v Speaker 1>thirty plus years. We were there doing operations around the world.

0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.920
<v Speaker 1>Never heard anything suggesting that the CIA had anything to

0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.240
<v Speaker 1>do with the Kennedy assassination. Where is essentially everything else

0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.400
<v Speaker 1>that's been secret at some point you hear about or whatever,

0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.800
<v Speaker 1>and then to look at something like that and think

0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.520
<v Speaker 1>that you could put all of those pieces together to

0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.480
<v Speaker 1>pull off that incredible conspiracy and no one would ever

0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.720
<v Speaker 1>talk about it is the thing that makes it the

0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.720
<v Speaker 1>most unlikely. The one thing we learned about doing real

0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.519
<v Speaker 1>conspiracies is you got to keep it very simple. It

0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.919
<v Speaker 1>has to be very short term for a clear goal.

0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.640
<v Speaker 1>Whereas the Kennedy thing assumes all kinds of complex moving

0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.440
<v Speaker 1>parts and all these that kind of things, and so

0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.400
<v Speaker 1>when the stuff came out, we weren't expecting anything. This

0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.960
<v Speaker 1>stuff has been released year after year. Clearly the stuff

0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.040
<v Speaker 1>that hadn't been released is related to other operations or

0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.480
<v Speaker 1>foreign governments or sources that helped us on this that

0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.280
<v Speaker 1>we promised to keep secret, and now we've seen that

0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.040
<v Speaker 1>when they've put out all the other stuff, it actually was.

0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.360
<v Speaker 1>It was kind of bad. It hurt some people in

0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.960
<v Speaker 1>the Mexican government that had helped us, and it provided

0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.920
<v Speaker 1>even prior to what social security numbers of people that

0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:54.880
<v Speaker 1>were on the Warrant Commission, all this kind of stuff

0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.200
<v Speaker 1>that there was a reason to keep that secret, not

0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.520
<v Speaker 1>because it was covering up the kennedyssassination, for all these

0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.720
<v Speaker 1>other normal security reasons.

0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we cross file things and there's a lot of

0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.160
<v Speaker 2>tangential things. I think John mentioned it once. If twenty

0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.720
<v Speaker 2>years later you're talking to a diplomat from the Balkans

0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.919
<v Speaker 2>who is a conspiratorial mindset, and he talks about his

0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.840
<v Speaker 2>theory of JFK, well that goes into the JFK file, right,

0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.919
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, he mentioned it, because you the way

0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.760
<v Speaker 2>we write everything up. We're really good with records, So

0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.320
<v Speaker 2>now that's in there. And so do you expose the

0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.480
<v Speaker 2>fact that we were talking to this person who may

0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.840
<v Speaker 2>become a source later in the Balkans? Do you expose

0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.880
<v Speaker 2>him because he's now in the in the files, So

0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.520
<v Speaker 2>it's it gets sound right silly. And two it depends

0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.360
<v Speaker 2>on what you want to prove. So generally the JFK

0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:50.280
<v Speaker 2>thing is like, we know that we CIA was involved. Well, okay,

0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.560
<v Speaker 2>it's a claim, but there's really no evidence for that.

0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.160
<v Speaker 2>And the other is that we maybe know who did it.

0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.400
<v Speaker 2>We know the Russians did or the Cubans were involved.

0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.240
<v Speaker 2>And if that's the case, I think we bind out.

0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.560
<v Speaker 2>We would have revealed it. And we've been through how

0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.080
<v Speaker 2>many presidents, right, you know, and you know to include

0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Trump before, to include Trump before, if they alway a

0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.240
<v Speaker 2>smoking gun, they would have put it out. And Trump

0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.440
<v Speaker 2>is no friend of CIA, John and I can certainly

0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.120
<v Speaker 2>attest to that. So if there was something bad in

0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.960
<v Speaker 2>those files which people could read, they would have outed it.

0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.280
<v Speaker 4>On another topic kind of knatsek More broadly, I'd love

0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:25.520
<v Speaker 4>to get your take. And you guys mentioned Tucker on

0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.400
<v Speaker 4>what's going on with these these pete hegsath aids who

0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.200
<v Speaker 4>were fired. One of them just went on to Tucker

0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:32.680
<v Speaker 4>and was kind of making it out that he's the

0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.640
<v Speaker 4>martyr for opposing the warrant Iron and I kind of

0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.200
<v Speaker 4>lack the experience with the military to understand kind of

0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.320
<v Speaker 4>all the contours here, but it seems like something interesting

0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.280
<v Speaker 4>is afoot in terms of the various narratives going on here.

0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.159
<v Speaker 1>I think you're going to find out before we've had

0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:50.479
<v Speaker 1>But it's really interesting because he turned on these people,

0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:52.400
<v Speaker 1>and there are people he just brought in a month

0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.040
<v Speaker 1>or two ago, So there's clearly personal things going on here,

0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.080
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know that it actually ties to the

0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.480
<v Speaker 1>military or anything NATIONALS, SECU purity related.

0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.360
<v Speaker 2>So in our world, our former world, when you're building

0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.920
<v Speaker 2>a team to accomplish a mission or to set out

0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>a direction, it has to be fact based, right, Policies

0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.280
<v Speaker 2>are based around facts. Okay, you know, here's here's our

0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:20.640
<v Speaker 2>goals and directors and here's why. If it's completely ideological

0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.560
<v Speaker 2>and there's nothing really that you can agree on other

0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.400
<v Speaker 2>than like I'm the boss, do what I fucking say,

0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:33.039
<v Speaker 2>then it's hard to maintain cohesiveness inside of your organization.

0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Because it's not based on anything that anybody that people

0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.400
<v Speaker 2>can look at it and go, yes, that's true, because

0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.320
<v Speaker 2>if nothing's true, or if it's realistic, and I think

0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Pete Heggsaf has a group of people around him that

0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.200
<v Speaker 2>they can't agree on anything, and I think what you

0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.400
<v Speaker 2>end up with then if there's no facts, as you

0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.120
<v Speaker 2>end up with a lot of backstabbing. And I think

0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.040
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing it with the trade policy right on tariffs.

0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.880
<v Speaker 2>This is a non fact base set upon and of

0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.279
<v Speaker 2>course everybody if there's no fixs and everybody can interpret

0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.320
<v Speaker 2>what the ideology is and I'm not even sure there's

0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.960
<v Speaker 2>an ideology behind it. It's all about just raw power.

0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:15.040
<v Speaker 2>We see that in other authoritarian regimes. And the only

0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.600
<v Speaker 2>way you can if there's no fis the only way

0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.080
<v Speaker 2>you can keep cohesiveness is through terror. I mean, how

0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.520
<v Speaker 2>did Stalin stay in control when they were breaking the

0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.400
<v Speaker 2>laws of economics and everybody knew it because people were starving.

0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.680
<v Speaker 2>It was like do what I say or I'll kill you.

0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.919
<v Speaker 2>Because beyond that there's nothing else that they can rally around.

0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.520
<v Speaker 1>One of the things I always find interesting is people

0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.400
<v Speaker 1>put the CIA, Deep State and Trump and these and

0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.440
<v Speaker 1>his people run agree there's some kind of danger to them.

0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.400
<v Speaker 1>But frankly, from my experience, from just reality is the

0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.960
<v Speaker 1>CIA doesn't care about Americans. We don't collect on Americans.

0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Our job is to recruit foreigners to give a secrets,

0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.240
<v Speaker 1>and we can't get to it in any other way.

0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.440
<v Speaker 1>And so people tend to think that we have all

0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.280
<v Speaker 1>these records of Americans and we wouldn't have any res

0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.440
<v Speaker 1>on somebody like Pete Hegseth, and I think even Donald Trump.

0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.760
<v Speaker 1>If Donald Trump is traveling back and forth to Russia,

0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.200
<v Speaker 1>the CIA doesn't care about that. If an American's traveling Russia,

0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.120
<v Speaker 1>that's not something we try to collect or get someone

0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.120
<v Speaker 1>to report on all those kind of things. So even

0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.000
<v Speaker 1>now on the left or like our CI, you're obviously hiding,

0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.520
<v Speaker 1>you must know that Trump is We don't follow Americans.

0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:25.160
<v Speaker 2>That's not our job unless they're in touch with the Russians.

0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm just saying, Michael, going back to Michael Flynn, why

0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.480
<v Speaker 2>he got fired, right, it is like we weren't collecting

0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.760
<v Speaker 2>on him, but we were collecting on the Russian ambassador

0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.640
<v Speaker 2>in the United States. And when Flynn is on a

0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.920
<v Speaker 2>telephone talking to the Russian ambassador telling him to ignore

0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.880
<v Speaker 2>the administration, which is breaking the law, and then he

0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.760
<v Speaker 2>lies to the FBI about the fact he was listening

0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.080
<v Speaker 2>to the Russian So we listened to the Russian ambassador

0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and we pick up Michael Flynn talking to him, and

0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:54.840
<v Speaker 2>then he lies about it.

0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:56.760
<v Speaker 1>So in any case, it wasn't the CIA that was

0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:57.200
<v Speaker 1>listening to.

0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.480
<v Speaker 2>No, there was NSA NFBI. Yeah, that's right, that's true.

0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.040
<v Speaker 4>You know, it is always funny. I consume so much

0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.680
<v Speaker 4>news through right wing media, and especially during the Russia investigation,

0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.760
<v Speaker 4>you ran into a lot of that, like they were

0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.600
<v Speaker 4>spying on Michael Flynn or Carter Page or whatever, and

0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:14.600
<v Speaker 4>then you run across it it's oh, who was he talking

0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:16.400
<v Speaker 4>to at the time? How did that come up?

0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Michael Flynn, yeah, even you know, he went

0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.760
<v Speaker 1>to Russia to deal with the GRU and then when

0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.480
<v Speaker 1>he retired he went there to make money through the

0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.679
<v Speaker 1>RT and then he was in Britain with a Russian

0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.680
<v Speaker 1>girlfriend and the Brits reported and there's all kinds of

0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:30.280
<v Speaker 1>stuff there that.

0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:31.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no one's.

0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.199
<v Speaker 1>Following Michael Flynn or Pete haigsit, Donald Trump or any

0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.480
<v Speaker 1>of those people. It's just yeah, if they're dealing with

0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.760
<v Speaker 1>bad actors that we are interested in.

0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.280
<v Speaker 2>The right for the audience, Let's go back to Carter

0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Page and the Russia thing. I just want to let's

0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.880
<v Speaker 2>be clear on this, right, it's like because conspiracy. He

0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:51.160
<v Speaker 2>goes to London and he talks to the Australian number

0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.120
<v Speaker 2>two in the embassy and he says, look, I've been

0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.960
<v Speaker 2>told that the Russian was a quarter page. Oh, Papadopolis,

0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:01.640
<v Speaker 2>I get my conspiracies mixed up.

0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Pardi Page is the one who was getting recruited

0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.920
<v Speaker 1>by That's right, that's right New York because we heard

0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.400
<v Speaker 1>the Russians talking about how easy it would be to

0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:09.120
<v Speaker 1>recruit him.

0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.400
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right. I was just going to figure

0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.640
<v Speaker 2>Papadopolos was saying that that the Russians have tapped into

0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the Democratic National Committee and then they did, right, And

0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.520
<v Speaker 2>so that's what began. It wasn't the Steel Dusty just

0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:21.280
<v Speaker 2>for the artist.

0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.200
<v Speaker 1>The Australians who reported it exactly.

0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So yeah, Russia was behind all this. There is

0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.679
<v Speaker 2>a conspiracy. As a CIA officer, that is a you know,

0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.520
<v Speaker 2>that's a counterintelligence issue. Is how would actually put it.

0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:47.640
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in just a moment. So will I

0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.640
<v Speaker 1>have a question for you. Again, you're part of the media,

0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.280
<v Speaker 1>you're an enemy of the people by definition, but you're

0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.319
<v Speaker 1>also reporting specifically.

0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.600
<v Speaker 3>On the right wing. Have you been threatened?

0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.920
<v Speaker 1>What is it like if you go to it, for example,

0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.320
<v Speaker 1>QAnon conference, What is that like? And do you worry

0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:04.520
<v Speaker 1>for your security for example?

0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, you know, there

0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.640
<v Speaker 4>have been some threats, maybe not as many as you'd

0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:13.160
<v Speaker 4>imagine they are. You know, they're sort of eering degrees,

0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.840
<v Speaker 4>you know, when I'm covering like neo Nazis or something

0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.000
<v Speaker 4>like that, that's much more intense than often qan On people,

0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.320
<v Speaker 4>although they have committed murders and things like that. I mean,

0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.200
<v Speaker 4>for the for the most part, they're they're a little

0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.520
<v Speaker 4>moor sedate. In the case of this q and On

0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.160
<v Speaker 4>convention in twenty twenty one, I was in Dallas, and

0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.720
<v Speaker 4>so I wanted to go, but you know, already qan

0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.040
<v Speaker 4>On people had started recognizing me. Some of them wanted to,

0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, obstutly beat me up or whatever. Some thought

0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.040
<v Speaker 4>I was maybe working for q because I wrote about

0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:43.600
<v Speaker 4>it so much and kind of a backwards way. This

0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.360
<v Speaker 4>guy at January sixth yelled Will summer, and I said,

0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.920
<v Speaker 4>oh god, you know it's over for me. And then no,

0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.240
<v Speaker 4>he just wanted a selfie, so you know, I declined

0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.920
<v Speaker 4>on that. But so going to Dallas, I had grown

0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.040
<v Speaker 4>out my you know, here's my trade craft, let me know.

0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.679
<v Speaker 4>But I had I had grown out my beard, and

0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.800
<v Speaker 4>I a baseball cap and sunglasses when I could, because

0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.520
<v Speaker 4>the organizers I knew would recognize me. But I just

0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.240
<v Speaker 4>bought a ticket and they hadn't rejected it, and so

0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.920
<v Speaker 4>I made it two days there and then basically another

0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.560
<v Speaker 4>reporter had been there and really like taunting them on Twitter,

0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:16.720
<v Speaker 4>and so they were really on the hunt. And basically

0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.480
<v Speaker 4>I think they saw me looking less than like I

0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.200
<v Speaker 4>didn't have a bloodlust that everyone else did. And so

0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.960
<v Speaker 4>suddenly I start seeing all these I think they're mostly

0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.240
<v Speaker 4>gone now, but there was this kind of like paramilitary

0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.960
<v Speaker 4>called First Amendment preetorians, and they would start these guys

0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.720
<v Speaker 4>start sitting around me, and I'm going like and I figured,

0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, hey, I'll go to the bathroom and they

0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.480
<v Speaker 4>lose these guys for bits sit elsewhere when I come back,

0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.440
<v Speaker 4>and then a guy grabs me and he looks at

0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.600
<v Speaker 4>my idea and he said, all right, that's fine. Then

0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.640
<v Speaker 4>I come back to the crowd and Michael Flynn is

0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.960
<v Speaker 4>on the stage and he goes, yeah, this media is

0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.080
<v Speaker 4>really opt to get us. In fact, there's a reporter

0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.160
<v Speaker 4>here who infiltrate it. And I start looking around like, oh,

0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.640
<v Speaker 4>who's gonna get busted? And it was me, so you

0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.720
<v Speaker 4>might imagine. And so the police who were there, they

0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.560
<v Speaker 4>kind of escorted me out. This whole crowd was chasing me,

0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.760
<v Speaker 4>a couple dozen people just screaming at me. There was

0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.719
<v Speaker 4>a shirtless guy. It was very bizarre, very kind of

0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.920
<v Speaker 4>heavy set, shirtless guy, you know. And then I got

0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.760
<v Speaker 4>in my rental and I left, and then, you know,

0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.360
<v Speaker 4>like a genius, I had decided to stay in the

0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.079
<v Speaker 4>same hotel as the convention because I wanted the color.

0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:17.720
<v Speaker 4>So then I've got to go back to the hotel

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.280
<v Speaker 4>and kind of hole up there because obviously they're kind

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.360
<v Speaker 4>of on the hunt for me. So it was that's

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.120
<v Speaker 4>maybe the most intense that's ever gotten.

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I have a admission to make to you,

0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.080
<v Speaker 2>and I do. Yes, it's a confession. So I live

0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.920
<v Speaker 2>in kind of a rational bubble with the people I

0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 2>know and the information they consume. I'm not confronted, except

0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 2>with some of my family. I'm like one of ten kids.

0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:42.360
<v Speaker 2>But in my personal life, I'm not confronted with people

0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>who believe in these conspiracies on a day to day basis.

0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.560
<v Speaker 2>And in fact, I have never sat down with a

0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.320
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy q and honor or a really deep trumper and

0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>handed like a fit based conversation friendly like you know, hey,

0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 2>let's let's talk as opposed to you pre me or them.

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Have you had that where you can actually sit down

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.200
<v Speaker 2>with somebody who I believe that may be a nice person,

0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 2>someone who pets puppies and is nice, but believes this stuff.

0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 2>How would you sit down and have a conversation with them?

0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 2>They're like you eat babies? No I don't, but let

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:18.679
<v Speaker 2>me tell you what I do do and like I

0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.240
<v Speaker 2>don't believe. How do you in your own life? Do

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:28.040
<v Speaker 2>you have like constructive friendly conversations with people?

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well I wouldn't say they're constructive, but I do

0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 4>have you know, you know, I have had, you know,

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 4>plenty of friendly conversations with with QAnon people or other

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 4>conspiracy theorists. I mean often, you know, some of them

0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 4>really have no sense of humor about it. I mean

0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 4>they take it very seriously, and you know, they do

0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.560
<v Speaker 4>think that I'm in the cabal and out to get

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:48.960
<v Speaker 4>them and other people. Kind of even if they believe that,

0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.440
<v Speaker 4>you know, I'm in this sinister group, they they they're

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.560
<v Speaker 4>happy to play ball with me. One thing about covering

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 4>the right that's fun is it's extremely factional, and the

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 4>people are often they're lot of like personality defects going on,

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 4>and they rub up against each other a lot, and

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.080
<v Speaker 4>so often they'll say, well, will I think you're a scumbag,

0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.080
<v Speaker 4>but I also really want this article to get out

0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.880
<v Speaker 4>about my rival in QAnon world, or so let me

0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.959
<v Speaker 4>tell you what he's up to. And these are more

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:16.719
<v Speaker 4>like kind of rank and file people, they kind of

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 4>want to save me, you know. I remember there was

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.480
<v Speaker 4>one person I had interviewed about her police in QAnon,

0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 4>and she was so concerned that sort of the big

0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 4>moment of retribution would come where Tom Hanks and Oprah

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 4>would get shipped to go on Tomamobay, and she was

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 4>concerned that I would be among them. And so she said,

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 4>I think you really need to come clean. You need

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 4>to talk to James O'Keefe. Maybe he'll make you cut

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.120
<v Speaker 4>you a deal, you know, and you can you can

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 4>flip sides.

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 2>I just want to have a rejoinder to that. So

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.800
<v Speaker 2>John and I in our past lives, and I can

0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 2>remember conversations with going back Soviets right where they would

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.440
<v Speaker 2>they would look at you in a conversation at a

0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>diplomatic function and then you know you're a running dog

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.480
<v Speaker 2>or capitalist, but there's always this glimmer in their eye

0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 2>like you know, I don't believe this shit, right, you know,

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 2>this is I've got to say so or even like

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.160
<v Speaker 2>I remember one Libyan diplomat who was going on about

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 2>how evil I was, and he pretty much knew I

0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.880
<v Speaker 2>was CIA, but you could see in his eyes like

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.080
<v Speaker 2>this is all a kabuki play, right, He's like, you know,

0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't buy into most or any of this, right,

0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 2>And you know we can go off and hit him

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 2>drink later, but in front of people, this is what

0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.240
<v Speaker 2>I got to do. But I don't get that sense

0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of these Q non folks right that

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>they are true believers.

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 4>I mean, yeah, they're definitely, and you know, in kind

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:30.360
<v Speaker 4>of the right wing media more broadly, I mean a

0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 4>lot of these people are are real believers, but they're

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 4>also you know they have, you know, and there's a

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.920
<v Speaker 4>lot of similarity between the work of an intelligence agent

0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.960
<v Speaker 4>and a journalist and that you're evaluating someone's motives, what

0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.000
<v Speaker 4>is their short term goal? Often and so in that way,

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.000
<v Speaker 4>I mean, they'll they'll talk to me because they you know,

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 4>they want publicity or something like that, and so there

0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 4>is a way to cover them. It's not always easy,

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 4>and it involves a lot more I think soul searching

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.600
<v Speaker 4>on their parts. I mean there's a lot of like

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 4>I've been called and people say, why did I ruin

0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.240
<v Speaker 4>my life? You know, I've done all these crazy things

0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:09.480
<v Speaker 4>for attention often and now I've alienated everyone, and you know, yeah,

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 4>you know that's how it goes.

0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.600
<v Speaker 1>So what is the hierarchy of danger? Like of these conspiracies,

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.240
<v Speaker 1>theorists and people, which ones do you think are a

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 1>real threat and danger? Which ones is it like entertainment?

0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Which ones are there because this moment and they're Trump people,

0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 1>but they're may be not. Like you know of QAnon

0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 1>and Proud Boys and oathkeepers and you probably know of

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.400
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other people that haven't even come together yet.

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Where's the danger? Which ones you think are going to

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 1>sort of go away, And what's your sense of that?

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I mean I know, I think there's kind

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 4>of like different types of danger, right, I mean there

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 4>are elements of like is this person going to try

0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 4>to swap me or try to murder me, or or

0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.000
<v Speaker 4>as someone else they perceives as a foe. And then

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:52.520
<v Speaker 4>what about our democracy?

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:54.640
<v Speaker 4>I mean in the case of you know, q Noon,

0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.760
<v Speaker 4>for example, we had or these militias, I mean these

0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.040
<v Speaker 4>they have murdered people in case of Quton. And then

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.040
<v Speaker 4>also you know, they whipped up this army of people

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 4>that a lot of them were at January sixth, who

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.720
<v Speaker 4>were convinced that this was like a utopian moment for America.

0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.200
<v Speaker 4>I think you know of Ashley Babbitt and other people

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.239
<v Speaker 4>who died then as well, who kind of made up

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:14.880
<v Speaker 4>this rabble.

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:15.679
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.240
<v Speaker 4>Similarly, you look at the Proud Boys so much. I

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.439
<v Speaker 4>mean I started covering the Proud Boys right when they started,

0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.600
<v Speaker 4>and so much of it was so ridiculous. You know,

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.200
<v Speaker 4>they had these rules about masturbation, oh, you know, the

0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.640
<v Speaker 4>no wanks agenda or whatever, and they would have oh,

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.600
<v Speaker 4>you can't wear flip flops. I mean, just ridiculous stuff.

0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.240
<v Speaker 4>And then you know famously right, they would they would

0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:35.880
<v Speaker 4>punch their members and then you would have to name

0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.520
<v Speaker 4>five serials to join the band, right, And so then

0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.399
<v Speaker 4>cut to January sixth, and they're trying to participate in

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.640
<v Speaker 4>overthrowing the government. And so in that way, I think

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 4>there are people who are like really hardcore members of it,

0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.080
<v Speaker 4>who have devoted their lives to it. There are people

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.720
<v Speaker 4>who have who are just along for a good time

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.919
<v Speaker 4>until it stops being fun. Certainly in the case of QAnon,

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.520
<v Speaker 4>I think when Biden was inaugurated, you saw a lot

0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.960
<v Speaker 4>of people who said, oh, I guess maybe that's over,

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 4>or maybe the plan isn't happening. I'll go off and

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:03.120
<v Speaker 4>do something else.

0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:08.200
<v Speaker 2>By my my sordid background before the Agency, I studied history,

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.119
<v Speaker 2>right history degree, and in the US in the eighteen fifties,

0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:16.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, the second political party after the Whigs flamed

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.359
<v Speaker 2>out was the American Party, the know nothing Party, and

0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.280
<v Speaker 2>it was all focused around basically some of the same

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 2>things we got now, but it was papist Catholic plots

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.560
<v Speaker 2>focused on Irish immigrants and immigrants from southern Germany who

0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.160
<v Speaker 2>were Catholic. God forbid the you know, the Italians who

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 2>were not even seen as white right in those days,

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 2>and they fielded serious political candidates for president and so forth.

0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.240
<v Speaker 2>But we moved on beyond that, right, I mean, you

0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.920
<v Speaker 2>know sort of now Catholics, you know, people of Irish

0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.479
<v Speaker 2>extraction are q ANDON members.

0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.080
<v Speaker 1>So do you see this as that's a real thing.

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:53.359
<v Speaker 1>They really moved up from.

0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:59.159
<v Speaker 2>The d yes pressure right, from being victims of to

0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.160
<v Speaker 2>like we're betraying the same conspiracies about.

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.359
<v Speaker 1>In the run concentration camps others.

0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, but they proved historically, I wouldn't say

0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.040
<v Speaker 2>a flash in the pan. They formed our history parts

0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.159
<v Speaker 2>of it, but they didn't determine it. The guardrails. We

0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.920
<v Speaker 2>had the strengths of democracy that even from those days

0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 2>we had came through. And so do you see these

0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 2>as these set of conspiracies, the spectrum of conspiracies as

0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>something that simply reflects popular discontent and it is a

0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>deep vein of like concerned as the world changes too

0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.520
<v Speaker 2>fast maybe for some people, or is this genuinely a

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.160
<v Speaker 2>threat to our democratic way of life? I suppose there's

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.439
<v Speaker 2>a middle ground too that, yeah, we'll have democracy, but

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.360
<v Speaker 2>it'll be a more authoritarian version thereof.

0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean I think it's a serious issue. I

0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.400
<v Speaker 4>mean people, you know, on one hand, people can say

0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.159
<v Speaker 4>we always had conspiracy theories. I mean, you know, in

0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 4>a lot of times they sort of resurface. I mean,

0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 4>in the case of QAnon that draws on Jewish blood

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.639
<v Speaker 4>lib while going back almost a thousand years, and we

0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 4>have these other examples. But at the same time, you know,

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.359
<v Speaker 4>it can get worse. And you know, I think in

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 4>the Internet, the combination of social media and having someone

0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 4>like Donald Trump who really validates people for he's saying, well,

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:15.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, I believe in conspiracy theories, so you know

0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 4>the president does, why not you? And so I think

0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.919
<v Speaker 4>in that way it is a really serious issue. I mean,

0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 4>you have people who believe that essentially, at best, that

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.560
<v Speaker 4>there is no objective truth or no kind of shared

0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.239
<v Speaker 4>reality that we live in. I mean, the idea that

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.320
<v Speaker 4>you would have roughly half the country and I think

0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.560
<v Speaker 4>probably nearly every Republican member of Congress who claiming that

0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.080
<v Speaker 4>the twenty twenty election was stolen. I mean that alone,

0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.000
<v Speaker 4>that's terrible for democracy, right, And so I do think

0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 4>these conspiracy theories, and this is certainly something that experts

0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.159
<v Speaker 4>on Russia that said kind of runs a muck in Russia.

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.320
<v Speaker 4>This idea where if anything bad happens for the regime,

0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 4>you can say, oh, it was these sinister forces, and

0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 4>so that that is.

0:20:57.880 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.520
<v Speaker 4>I think it's awful for democracy, And in terms of

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.439
<v Speaker 4>having an informed public, yeah, it's not good.

0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.800
<v Speaker 1>No, especially if everyone who gets a job. These are

0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.639
<v Speaker 1>serious jobs. These institutions are very powerful and if they're misused,

0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.120
<v Speaker 1>can really be dangerous to Americans and foreigners around the world.

0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.359
<v Speaker 1>So you got the FBI, the CIA, the Defense Department,

0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.760
<v Speaker 1>our Army, Navy, all of these things are really powerful organizations.

0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:25.400
<v Speaker 1>And to get those jobs, have to agree to follow conspiracy.

0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:27.800
<v Speaker 1>You have to say the twenty twenty election was stolen

0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 1>and the January sixth was a day of love. Just

0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 1>to get in the door, you have to be complicit

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.520
<v Speaker 1>in a lie, and most of those people at some

0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 1>level have to know they're lying and they're complicit to

0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.119
<v Speaker 1>get those jobs. And that's a real dangerous place, especially

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.960
<v Speaker 1>for the intelligence community. Intelligence is about trying to find

0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.360
<v Speaker 1>truth to the extent that you can try to provide

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.720
<v Speaker 1>your best guess on what's really happening. We take pride

0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.200
<v Speaker 1>in giving intelligence to policymakers that they may not want

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>to hear because this is you know, Jerry works in

0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.679
<v Speaker 1>India or Afghanistan or Germany, and he's trying to explain

0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 1>to our policymakers what's really happening on the ground, so

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.439
<v Speaker 1>that they may be upset because it's not fitting with

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.719
<v Speaker 1>their policy, but eventually it's going to make them make

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.960
<v Speaker 1>better policy. But from the outset, if you can't tell

0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.280
<v Speaker 1>your leaders the truth, that's a real dangerous thing, and

0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.159
<v Speaker 1>that can cause things to go away quickly.

0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:37.280
<v Speaker 3>More of this after a quick break, and.

0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.159
<v Speaker 1>So let me ask you one question I just thought of.

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.680
<v Speaker 1>This is not connected to that. Is Ivan Rakeland. Whatever

0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.280
<v Speaker 1>happened to him? He was like the guy the secretary

0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:46.399
<v Speaker 1>of Retribution and he was coming after Jerry and I

0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.240
<v Speaker 1>and I haven't heard about him lately, So what's his.

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:50.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, this was the guy with the list of the

0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:52.320
<v Speaker 4>all the enemies we're going to get to when Trump

0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 4>gets elected. You know, it's interesting, I think some of

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:57.800
<v Speaker 4>these guys, you know, there was a lot of coverage

0:22:57.840 --> 0:22:59.680
<v Speaker 4>of him and this idea, you know, he's going to

0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:01.480
<v Speaker 4>come in and then showed Trump the list in the

0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.200
<v Speaker 4>Oval office. But that's a guy it's a little unclear

0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:06.479
<v Speaker 4>to me how much sort of cloud he actually enjoys

0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.639
<v Speaker 4>with the administration, you know, you have, But at the

0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:10.560
<v Speaker 4>same time, you have some of these figures who seem

0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.720
<v Speaker 4>so outlandish, and you think Laura, well, and I was

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.080
<v Speaker 4>gonna bring that up, I mean, and now she's just

0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.479
<v Speaker 4>a person who has done all these stunts. I mean,

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.240
<v Speaker 4>for many years she was considered like too crazy or

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 4>too embarrassing for even a lot of right wing people

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.560
<v Speaker 4>to associate with. And now she's purging the National Security Council,

0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 4>supposedly getting rid of the NSA director, and that story

0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.720
<v Speaker 4>that is such a crazy story. And yet there's that

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:36.560
<v Speaker 4>was almost like brushovers, like well, what can you do?

0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:38.960
<v Speaker 4>That is crazy stuff that on a nine to eleven

0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.600
<v Speaker 4>conspiracy theorist is going in and saying, yah, you should

0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:43.640
<v Speaker 4>get rid of this guy because he used to work

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 4>in the republican relatively sane foreign policy establishment.

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Apparently one of the questions to get a job in

0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration, yes, formally or informally, is nine to

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.720
<v Speaker 2>eleven an inside job. In January seventh, I don't even

0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:59.440
<v Speaker 2>know what inside job means, because there's such a broad

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.359
<v Speaker 2>spectrum of conspiracy theories about both of them, right it

0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.679
<v Speaker 2>was like it was the Jews, or it was the

0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.000
<v Speaker 2>US government, or it was the Saudis, or January sixth

0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.920
<v Speaker 2>it was Antifa. No, it's not Antifa. It was the FBI. No,

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.440
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't FBI because nothing bad happened, it was all good.

0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:17.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm not even sure you know what the conspiracy theories are.

0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I get the conspiracy theory clear first. I know, it's

0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.440
<v Speaker 2>like there's such as there's such a wide spectrum of

0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:25.440
<v Speaker 2>moment ie put them all straight.

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, often it is tricky because often there is there's

0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 4>not like one specific conspiracy theory they're asking you to believe.

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:33.879
<v Speaker 4>They're saying, don't you think that's a little odd? You know,

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:37.680
<v Speaker 4>it's sort of that reflexive and I think offense, sort

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 4>of immature skepticism that is really what they're pushing, rather

0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:44.720
<v Speaker 4>than a specific one idea which could be disproven or not,

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.480
<v Speaker 4>Rather than you're just being asked to say, don't you

0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:49.160
<v Speaker 4>want to look behind the curtain? Don't you really want

0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:51.399
<v Speaker 4>to understand the world and outside? They draw people in,

0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:52.359
<v Speaker 4>and I think some of.

0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.920
<v Speaker 1>It is obviously for entertainment. Some of it is just

0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.080
<v Speaker 1>taking advantage of people's predilections. A lot of it is

0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 1>for domestic politic. So you want to say the Democrats

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:05.719
<v Speaker 1>your enemies, you need to create stories to make them enemies.

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.200
<v Speaker 1>But then when people start to believe those things, then

0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:11.280
<v Speaker 1>it goes to that next level. And that's what's unusual

0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:15.160
<v Speaker 1>about this administration is they seem to be happy weaponizing

0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:18.120
<v Speaker 1>that without worrying about what the implications are further down

0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:20.280
<v Speaker 1>the road. And we've seen a lot of people Republicans

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.400
<v Speaker 1>who are probably even in the first Trump administration, ready

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 1>to follow along, who at some point couldn't keep up

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 1>with it and then they got turned on. So the

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:29.919
<v Speaker 1>question for you is like, how do we get out

0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:31.440
<v Speaker 1>of this? And I know that's a hard question maybe

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 1>the right answer, but is this something that is this

0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.520
<v Speaker 1>a Donald Trump phenomenon that is bringing it to the

0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.879
<v Speaker 1>surface and it's always going to be there, but it's

0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:42.200
<v Speaker 1>never gonna be as bad as it is now? Or

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.600
<v Speaker 1>are we going past the rubicon and it's going to

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:46.240
<v Speaker 1>be part of our life and we might not be

0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:47.040
<v Speaker 1>able to get away from it.

0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:49.440
<v Speaker 4>I think in many ways, I think, at least for

0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:51.959
<v Speaker 4>the foreseeable, the next couple decades or something. I think

0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:55.160
<v Speaker 4>this kind of conspiratorial thinking and this populism is really

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 4>with us for a long time, whether it's going to

0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:58.920
<v Speaker 4>be in and out of power. But I do think

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 4>just so many fact actors, whether it's the Internet or

0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:04.520
<v Speaker 4>the rise of Trump or anything else, I think this

0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:08.520
<v Speaker 4>is very much going to be with us. And you know, yeah,

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:10.600
<v Speaker 4>I mean I think unfortunately it's something we're gonna have

0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:11.359
<v Speaker 4>to learn to drapple with.

0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:14.200
<v Speaker 2>It's we're sort of seems like we're stuck in and

0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:16.639
<v Speaker 2>never before. It's like, on one hand, now we've got

0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 2>a cult, right, it's no longer that the cult is

0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:21.560
<v Speaker 2>the GOP. There's not a And then we've got the

0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Democratic Party, which is you know, has a lot of

0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:26.920
<v Speaker 2>warts and it can be kind of wishy washy, and

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure what the Democrat because it's a

0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:33.719
<v Speaker 2>conglomeration of like different factions and not a whole lot

0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:37.159
<v Speaker 2>of people with powerful magnetic personalities. Although Chuck Trumer may

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:41.080
<v Speaker 2>be like talking sense, but he's not like inspiring anybody, right,

0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he just isn't. Sorry Chuck, but you know,

0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:45.919
<v Speaker 2>is this sort of what we're stuck with is boring

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and insipid but maybe right and then just deadly wrong,

0:26:49.920 --> 0:26:53.280
<v Speaker 2>but sort of like simple and charismatic. Yeah, I just don't.

0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:55.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't quite know what to For most people, it's

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:57.480
<v Speaker 2>an easy choice, it should be, but it's more fun

0:26:57.560 --> 0:26:58.640
<v Speaker 2>to go with a cult, right.

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.880
<v Speaker 4>About giving Yeah, Well, I mean I do think democrats

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 4>are hopefully I think these kind of these stunts, and

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.159
<v Speaker 4>I mean that in a positive way. About Chris van

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:11.840
<v Speaker 4>Holland going down to El Salvador, for example, I think

0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:15.520
<v Speaker 4>we're starting to see democrats or Cory Bookers filibuster more

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:18.159
<v Speaker 4>examples of Democrats realizing we need to do things that

0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:21.160
<v Speaker 4>are getting attention, not just going on the same place

0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:23.920
<v Speaker 4>as where I was going on and just complaining about it. So,

0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:25.760
<v Speaker 4>you know, if you look for a little optimism, I

0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.080
<v Speaker 4>think it's there is that hopefully Democrats are starting to

0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.160
<v Speaker 4>realize that you have to compete in these spaces, whether

0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:34.080
<v Speaker 4>it's podcasts or vertical short form video or.

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.359
<v Speaker 2>What have you. I just hope that to get out

0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:39.159
<v Speaker 2>of this, we don't have to crash the economy and right,

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:41.600
<v Speaker 2>that's the other way of burning it out is have

0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:45.560
<v Speaker 2>it been just such a friggin failure that except for

0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 2>the twenty percent hardcore who don't mind losing their four

0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:50.920
<v Speaker 2>to one case and houses.

0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 1>And they'll just blame somebody. Well, yeah, yeah, Russia. Russia's

0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:57.159
<v Speaker 1>economy has gone to hell. They've had to give it

0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.360
<v Speaker 1>over to the Chinies. They're slaughtering more people per day

0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:02.880
<v Speaker 1>in Ukraine than we lost in twenty years in Afghanistan.

0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:06.840
<v Speaker 1>But Putin is able to blame it on. It's the Americans,

0:28:06.880 --> 0:28:10.639
<v Speaker 1>it's a NATO, it's there's always somebody to blame in

0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:13.560
<v Speaker 1>those situations. And Trump has that skill, right.

0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:16.439
<v Speaker 4>You look at after the financial crisis, and they basically

0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.879
<v Speaker 4>the Republican line became it was too easy for minorities

0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:21.399
<v Speaker 4>to get houses, and that's why the financial crisis happened.

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:23.520
<v Speaker 4>And I think they can always come up with some

0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:25.639
<v Speaker 4>shred of evidence to blame somebody.

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Biden.

0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, Will, thank you very much. We will continue

0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:32.280
<v Speaker 1>to follow your reporting. He reports for The Bulwark and

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 1>he has a newsletter called The False Flag. I would

0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:37.040
<v Speaker 1>encourage you to continue to follow him.

0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Will.

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 1>It was a real pleasure.

0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:39.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, thanks for having me