1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: We now continue with part two of our conversation with 12 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: Will Summer of the Bulwark and the newsletter False Flag. 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: So will you write a lot about conspiracies and conspiracy 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 2: theories and a lot of conspiracy conspiracy theories center around 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: CIA or the deep state. We got two deep state 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: guys right here, so ask away, what is your what 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: is your favorite conspiracy theory having to do with a 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: deep state or CIA? Or what do we have to 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: play to you? What lies doing conspiracies? Do we have 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: to spin or lie to you on? 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: You know? 22 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 4: I would love to know. Obviously there's been a lot 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 4: of coverage of the JFK files being released, and I'd 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 4: love to know what y'all make of those in terms 25 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 4: of any revelations or not. 26 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: We've talked to a couple of people about JFK stuff, 27 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: and at first when we did this podcast, we're like, 28 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: we got to stay away from the JFK thing because 29 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: the people who get into that are like so deep 30 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: into it that we're never going to be able to 31 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: read enough so that we can like fix when they 32 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: say something that they're completely focused on some little issue 33 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: that we don't even understand or never followed. Our general 34 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: view is, listen, we worked in the Clandestine Service for 35 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: thirty plus years. We were there doing operations around the world. 36 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: Never heard anything suggesting that the CIA had anything to 37 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: do with the Kennedy assassination. Where is essentially everything else 38 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: that's been secret at some point you hear about or whatever, 39 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: and then to look at something like that and think 40 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: that you could put all of those pieces together to 41 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: pull off that incredible conspiracy and no one would ever 42 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: talk about it is the thing that makes it the 43 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: most unlikely. The one thing we learned about doing real 44 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: conspiracies is you got to keep it very simple. It 45 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: has to be very short term for a clear goal. 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: Whereas the Kennedy thing assumes all kinds of complex moving 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: parts and all these that kind of things, and so 48 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: when the stuff came out, we weren't expecting anything. This 49 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: stuff has been released year after year. Clearly the stuff 50 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: that hadn't been released is related to other operations or 51 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: foreign governments or sources that helped us on this that 52 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: we promised to keep secret, and now we've seen that 53 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: when they've put out all the other stuff, it actually was. 54 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: It was kind of bad. It hurt some people in 55 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: the Mexican government that had helped us, and it provided 56 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: even prior to what social security numbers of people that 57 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: were on the Warrant Commission, all this kind of stuff 58 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: that there was a reason to keep that secret, not 59 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: because it was covering up the kennedyssassination, for all these 60 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: other normal security reasons. 61 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we cross file things and there's a lot of 62 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: tangential things. I think John mentioned it once. If twenty 63 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: years later you're talking to a diplomat from the Balkans 64 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: who is a conspiratorial mindset, and he talks about his 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: theory of JFK, well that goes into the JFK file, right, 66 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, he mentioned it, because you the way 67 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: we write everything up. We're really good with records, So 68 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: now that's in there. And so do you expose the 69 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: fact that we were talking to this person who may 70 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: become a source later in the Balkans? Do you expose 71 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: him because he's now in the in the files, So 72 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: it's it gets sound right silly. And two it depends 73 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: on what you want to prove. So generally the JFK 74 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: thing is like, we know that we CIA was involved. Well, okay, 75 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: it's a claim, but there's really no evidence for that. 76 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: And the other is that we maybe know who did it. 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: We know the Russians did or the Cubans were involved. 78 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: And if that's the case, I think we bind out. 79 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: We would have revealed it. And we've been through how 80 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: many presidents, right, you know, and you know to include 81 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: Trump before, to include Trump before, if they alway a 82 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: smoking gun, they would have put it out. And Trump 83 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: is no friend of CIA, John and I can certainly 84 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: attest to that. So if there was something bad in 85 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: those files which people could read, they would have outed it. 86 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 4: On another topic kind of knatsek More broadly, I'd love 87 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 4: to get your take. And you guys mentioned Tucker on 88 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 4: what's going on with these these pete hegsath aids who 89 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 4: were fired. One of them just went on to Tucker 90 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 4: and was kind of making it out that he's the 91 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 4: martyr for opposing the warrant Iron and I kind of 92 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: lack the experience with the military to understand kind of 93 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: all the contours here, but it seems like something interesting 94 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 4: is afoot in terms of the various narratives going on here. 95 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: I think you're going to find out before we've had 96 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: But it's really interesting because he turned on these people, 97 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: and there are people he just brought in a month 98 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: or two ago, So there's clearly personal things going on here, 99 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: and I don't know that it actually ties to the 100 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: military or anything NATIONALS, SECU purity related. 101 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: So in our world, our former world, when you're building 102 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: a team to accomplish a mission or to set out 103 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: a direction, it has to be fact based, right, Policies 104 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 2: are based around facts. Okay, you know, here's here's our 105 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: goals and directors and here's why. If it's completely ideological 106 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: and there's nothing really that you can agree on other 107 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: than like I'm the boss, do what I fucking say, 108 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: then it's hard to maintain cohesiveness inside of your organization. 109 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: Because it's not based on anything that anybody that people 110 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: can look at it and go, yes, that's true, because 111 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: if nothing's true, or if it's realistic, and I think 112 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: Pete Heggsaf has a group of people around him that 113 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: they can't agree on anything, and I think what you 114 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: end up with then if there's no facts, as you 115 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: end up with a lot of backstabbing. And I think 116 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: you're seeing it with the trade policy right on tariffs. 117 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: This is a non fact base set upon and of 118 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: course everybody if there's no fixs and everybody can interpret 119 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: what the ideology is and I'm not even sure there's 120 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: an ideology behind it. It's all about just raw power. 121 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: We see that in other authoritarian regimes. And the only 122 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: way you can if there's no fis the only way 123 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: you can keep cohesiveness is through terror. I mean, how 124 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: did Stalin stay in control when they were breaking the 125 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: laws of economics and everybody knew it because people were starving. 126 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: It was like do what I say or I'll kill you. 127 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: Because beyond that there's nothing else that they can rally around. 128 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: One of the things I always find interesting is people 129 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: put the CIA, Deep State and Trump and these and 130 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: his people run agree there's some kind of danger to them. 131 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: But frankly, from my experience, from just reality is the 132 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: CIA doesn't care about Americans. We don't collect on Americans. 133 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: Our job is to recruit foreigners to give a secrets, 134 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: and we can't get to it in any other way. 135 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: And so people tend to think that we have all 136 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: these records of Americans and we wouldn't have any res 137 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: on somebody like Pete Hegseth, and I think even Donald Trump. 138 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: If Donald Trump is traveling back and forth to Russia, 139 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: the CIA doesn't care about that. If an American's traveling Russia, 140 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: that's not something we try to collect or get someone 141 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: to report on all those kind of things. So even 142 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: now on the left or like our CI, you're obviously hiding, 143 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: you must know that Trump is We don't follow Americans. 144 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: That's not our job unless they're in touch with the Russians. 145 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: I'm just saying, Michael, going back to Michael Flynn, why 146 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: he got fired, right, it is like we weren't collecting 147 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: on him, but we were collecting on the Russian ambassador 148 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: in the United States. And when Flynn is on a 149 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: telephone talking to the Russian ambassador telling him to ignore 150 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: the administration, which is breaking the law, and then he 151 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: lies to the FBI about the fact he was listening 152 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: to the Russian So we listened to the Russian ambassador 153 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: and we pick up Michael Flynn talking to him, and 154 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 2: then he lies about it. 155 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: So in any case, it wasn't the CIA that was 156 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: listening to. 157 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: No, there was NSA NFBI. Yeah, that's right, that's true. 158 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 4: You know, it is always funny. I consume so much 159 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 4: news through right wing media, and especially during the Russia investigation, 160 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 4: you ran into a lot of that, like they were 161 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 4: spying on Michael Flynn or Carter Page or whatever, and 162 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: then you run across it it's oh, who was he talking 163 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 4: to at the time? How did that come up? 164 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? 165 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Michael Flynn, yeah, even you know, he went 166 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: to Russia to deal with the GRU and then when 167 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: he retired he went there to make money through the 168 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: RT and then he was in Britain with a Russian 169 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: girlfriend and the Brits reported and there's all kinds of 170 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: stuff there that. 171 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, no one's. 172 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: Following Michael Flynn or Pete haigsit, Donald Trump or any 173 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: of those people. It's just yeah, if they're dealing with 174 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: bad actors that we are interested in. 175 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: The right for the audience, Let's go back to Carter 176 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: Page and the Russia thing. I just want to let's 177 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: be clear on this, right, it's like because conspiracy. He 178 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: goes to London and he talks to the Australian number 179 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: two in the embassy and he says, look, I've been 180 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: told that the Russian was a quarter page. Oh, Papadopolis, 181 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: I get my conspiracies mixed up. 182 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Pardi Page is the one who was getting recruited 183 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: by That's right, that's right New York because we heard 184 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: the Russians talking about how easy it would be to 185 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: recruit him. 186 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I was just going to figure 187 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: Papadopolos was saying that that the Russians have tapped into 188 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: the Democratic National Committee and then they did, right, And 189 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: so that's what began. It wasn't the Steel Dusty just 190 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: for the artist. 191 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: The Australians who reported it exactly. 192 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: Yes, So yeah, Russia was behind all this. There is 193 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: a conspiracy. As a CIA officer, that is a you know, 194 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: that's a counterintelligence issue. Is how would actually put it. 195 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a moment. So will I 196 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: have a question for you. Again, you're part of the media, 197 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: you're an enemy of the people by definition, but you're 198 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: also reporting specifically. 199 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: On the right wing. Have you been threatened? 200 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: What is it like if you go to it, for example, 201 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: QAnon conference, What is that like? And do you worry 202 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: for your security for example? 203 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, you know, there 204 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 4: have been some threats, maybe not as many as you'd 205 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 4: imagine they are. You know, they're sort of eering degrees, 206 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 4: you know, when I'm covering like neo Nazis or something 207 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 4: like that, that's much more intense than often qan On people, 208 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 4: although they have committed murders and things like that. I mean, 209 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 4: for the for the most part, they're they're a little 210 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: moor sedate. In the case of this q and On 211 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 4: convention in twenty twenty one, I was in Dallas, and 212 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 4: so I wanted to go, but you know, already qan 213 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: On people had started recognizing me. Some of them wanted to, 214 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 4: you know, obstutly beat me up or whatever. Some thought 215 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 4: I was maybe working for q because I wrote about 216 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 4: it so much and kind of a backwards way. This 217 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 4: guy at January sixth yelled Will summer, and I said, 218 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 4: oh god, you know it's over for me. And then no, 219 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 4: he just wanted a selfie, so you know, I declined 220 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 4: on that. But so going to Dallas, I had grown 221 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: out my you know, here's my trade craft, let me know. 222 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 4: But I had I had grown out my beard, and 223 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 4: I a baseball cap and sunglasses when I could, because 224 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 4: the organizers I knew would recognize me. But I just 225 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: bought a ticket and they hadn't rejected it, and so 226 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: I made it two days there and then basically another 227 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 4: reporter had been there and really like taunting them on Twitter, 228 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 4: and so they were really on the hunt. And basically 229 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 4: I think they saw me looking less than like I 230 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 4: didn't have a bloodlust that everyone else did. And so 231 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 4: suddenly I start seeing all these I think they're mostly 232 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 4: gone now, but there was this kind of like paramilitary 233 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 4: called First Amendment preetorians, and they would start these guys 234 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 4: start sitting around me, and I'm going like and I figured, 235 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: you know, hey, I'll go to the bathroom and they 236 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 4: lose these guys for bits sit elsewhere when I come back, 237 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: and then a guy grabs me and he looks at 238 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 4: my idea and he said, all right, that's fine. Then 239 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: I come back to the crowd and Michael Flynn is 240 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 4: on the stage and he goes, yeah, this media is 241 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 4: really opt to get us. In fact, there's a reporter 242 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: here who infiltrate it. And I start looking around like, oh, 243 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: who's gonna get busted? And it was me, so you 244 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 4: might imagine. And so the police who were there, they 245 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 4: kind of escorted me out. This whole crowd was chasing me, 246 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 4: a couple dozen people just screaming at me. There was 247 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 4: a shirtless guy. It was very bizarre, very kind of 248 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 4: heavy set, shirtless guy, you know. And then I got 249 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: in my rental and I left, and then, you know, 250 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 4: like a genius, I had decided to stay in the 251 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 4: same hotel as the convention because I wanted the color. 252 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 4: So then I've got to go back to the hotel 253 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: and kind of hole up there because obviously they're kind 254 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 4: of on the hunt for me. So it was that's 255 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: maybe the most intense that's ever gotten. 256 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have a admission to make to you, 257 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: and I do. Yes, it's a confession. So I live 258 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: in kind of a rational bubble with the people I 259 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: know and the information they consume. I'm not confronted, except 260 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: with some of my family. I'm like one of ten kids. 261 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: But in my personal life, I'm not confronted with people 262 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: who believe in these conspiracies on a day to day basis. 263 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: And in fact, I have never sat down with a 264 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: conspiracy q and honor or a really deep trumper and 265 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: handed like a fit based conversation friendly like you know, hey, 266 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: let's let's talk as opposed to you pre me or them. 267 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: Have you had that where you can actually sit down 268 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: with somebody who I believe that may be a nice person, 269 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: someone who pets puppies and is nice, but believes this stuff. 270 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: How would you sit down and have a conversation with them? 271 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: They're like you eat babies? No I don't, but let 272 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: me tell you what I do do and like I 273 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: don't believe. How do you in your own life? Do 274 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: you have like constructive friendly conversations with people? 275 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, well I wouldn't say they're constructive, but I do 276 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: have you know, you know, I have had, you know, 277 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 4: plenty of friendly conversations with with QAnon people or other 278 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: conspiracy theorists. I mean often, you know, some of them 279 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 4: really have no sense of humor about it. I mean 280 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 4: they take it very seriously, and you know, they do 281 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 4: think that I'm in the cabal and out to get 282 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 4: them and other people. Kind of even if they believe that, 283 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 4: you know, I'm in this sinister group, they they they're 284 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 4: happy to play ball with me. One thing about covering 285 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 4: the right that's fun is it's extremely factional, and the 286 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 4: people are often they're lot of like personality defects going on, 287 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 4: and they rub up against each other a lot, and 288 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 4: so often they'll say, well, will I think you're a scumbag, 289 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 4: but I also really want this article to get out 290 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: about my rival in QAnon world, or so let me 291 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 4: tell you what he's up to. And these are more 292 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 4: like kind of rank and file people, they kind of 293 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: want to save me, you know. I remember there was 294 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: one person I had interviewed about her police in QAnon, 295 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 4: and she was so concerned that sort of the big 296 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: moment of retribution would come where Tom Hanks and Oprah 297 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 4: would get shipped to go on Tomamobay, and she was 298 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: concerned that I would be among them. And so she said, 299 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 4: I think you really need to come clean. You need 300 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 4: to talk to James O'Keefe. Maybe he'll make you cut 301 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: you a deal, you know, and you can you can 302 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 4: flip sides. 303 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: I just want to have a rejoinder to that. So 304 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: John and I in our past lives, and I can 305 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: remember conversations with going back Soviets right where they would 306 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: they would look at you in a conversation at a 307 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: diplomatic function and then you know you're a running dog 308 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: or capitalist, but there's always this glimmer in their eye 309 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: like you know, I don't believe this shit, right, you know, 310 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: this is I've got to say so or even like 311 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: I remember one Libyan diplomat who was going on about 312 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: how evil I was, and he pretty much knew I 313 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: was CIA, but you could see in his eyes like 314 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: this is all a kabuki play, right, He's like, you know, 315 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: I don't buy into most or any of this, right, 316 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: And you know we can go off and hit him 317 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: drink later, but in front of people, this is what 318 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: I got to do. But I don't get that sense 319 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: with a lot of these Q non folks right that 320 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: they are true believers. 321 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, they're definitely, and you know, in kind 322 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 4: of the right wing media more broadly, I mean a 323 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 4: lot of these people are are real believers, but they're 324 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 4: also you know they have, you know, and there's a 325 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 4: lot of similarity between the work of an intelligence agent 326 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 4: and a journalist and that you're evaluating someone's motives, what 327 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 4: is their short term goal? Often and so in that way, 328 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 4: I mean, they'll they'll talk to me because they you know, 329 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 4: they want publicity or something like that, and so there 330 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 4: is a way to cover them. It's not always easy, 331 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 4: and it involves a lot more I think soul searching 332 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: on their parts. I mean there's a lot of like 333 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 4: I've been called and people say, why did I ruin 334 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 4: my life? You know, I've done all these crazy things 335 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 4: for attention often and now I've alienated everyone, and you know, yeah, 336 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 4: you know that's how it goes. 337 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: So what is the hierarchy of danger? Like of these conspiracies, 338 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: theorists and people, which ones do you think are a 339 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: real threat and danger? Which ones is it like entertainment? 340 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Which ones are there because this moment and they're Trump people, 341 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: but they're may be not. Like you know of QAnon 342 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: and Proud Boys and oathkeepers and you probably know of 343 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: a lot of other people that haven't even come together yet. 344 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: Where's the danger? Which ones you think are going to 345 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: sort of go away, And what's your sense of that? 346 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean I know, I think there's kind 347 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 4: of like different types of danger, right, I mean there 348 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 4: are elements of like is this person going to try 349 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 4: to swap me or try to murder me, or or 350 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 4: as someone else they perceives as a foe. And then 351 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 4: what about our democracy? 352 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: Right? 353 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: I mean in the case of you know, q Noon, 354 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 4: for example, we had or these militias, I mean these 355 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 4: they have murdered people in case of Quton. And then 356 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 4: also you know, they whipped up this army of people 357 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 4: that a lot of them were at January sixth, who 358 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 4: were convinced that this was like a utopian moment for America. 359 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 4: I think you know of Ashley Babbitt and other people 360 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 4: who died then as well, who kind of made up 361 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 4: this rabble. 362 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 2: You know. 363 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 4: Similarly, you look at the Proud Boys so much. I 364 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 4: mean I started covering the Proud Boys right when they started, 365 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 4: and so much of it was so ridiculous. You know, 366 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 4: they had these rules about masturbation, oh, you know, the 367 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 4: no wanks agenda or whatever, and they would have oh, 368 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 4: you can't wear flip flops. I mean, just ridiculous stuff. 369 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 4: And then you know famously right, they would they would 370 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 4: punch their members and then you would have to name 371 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 4: five serials to join the band, right, And so then 372 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 4: cut to January sixth, and they're trying to participate in 373 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 4: overthrowing the government. And so in that way, I think 374 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: there are people who are like really hardcore members of it, 375 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: who have devoted their lives to it. There are people 376 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 4: who have who are just along for a good time 377 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 4: until it stops being fun. Certainly in the case of QAnon, 378 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 4: I think when Biden was inaugurated, you saw a lot 379 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 4: of people who said, oh, I guess maybe that's over, 380 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: or maybe the plan isn't happening. I'll go off and 381 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 4: do something else. 382 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 2: By my my sordid background before the Agency, I studied history, 383 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: right history degree, and in the US in the eighteen fifties, 384 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 2: you know, the second political party after the Whigs flamed 385 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: out was the American Party, the know nothing Party, and 386 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: it was all focused around basically some of the same 387 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: things we got now, but it was papist Catholic plots 388 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: focused on Irish immigrants and immigrants from southern Germany who 389 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 2: were Catholic. God forbid the you know, the Italians who 390 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: were not even seen as white right in those days, 391 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: and they fielded serious political candidates for president and so forth. 392 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: But we moved on beyond that, right, I mean, you 393 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: know sort of now Catholics, you know, people of Irish 394 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 2: extraction are q ANDON members. 395 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: So do you see this as that's a real thing. 396 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: They really moved up from. 397 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: The d yes pressure right, from being victims of to 398 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 2: like we're betraying the same conspiracies about. 399 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: In the run concentration camps others. 400 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but they proved historically, I wouldn't say 401 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 2: a flash in the pan. They formed our history parts 402 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: of it, but they didn't determine it. The guardrails. We 403 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: had the strengths of democracy that even from those days 404 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: we had came through. And so do you see these 405 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: as these set of conspiracies, the spectrum of conspiracies as 406 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: something that simply reflects popular discontent and it is a 407 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: deep vein of like concerned as the world changes too 408 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: fast maybe for some people, or is this genuinely a 409 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: threat to our democratic way of life? I suppose there's 410 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: a middle ground too that, yeah, we'll have democracy, but 411 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: it'll be a more authoritarian version thereof. 412 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think it's a serious issue. I 413 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 4: mean people, you know, on one hand, people can say 414 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 4: we always had conspiracy theories. I mean, you know, in 415 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 4: a lot of times they sort of resurface. I mean, 416 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 4: in the case of QAnon that draws on Jewish blood 417 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 4: lib while going back almost a thousand years, and we 418 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 4: have these other examples. But at the same time, you know, 419 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 4: it can get worse. And you know, I think in 420 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 4: the Internet, the combination of social media and having someone 421 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 4: like Donald Trump who really validates people for he's saying, well, 422 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: you know, I believe in conspiracy theories, so you know 423 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 4: the president does, why not you? And so I think 424 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 4: in that way it is a really serious issue. I mean, 425 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: you have people who believe that essentially, at best, that 426 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 4: there is no objective truth or no kind of shared 427 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,239 Speaker 4: reality that we live in. I mean, the idea that 428 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 4: you would have roughly half the country and I think 429 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 4: probably nearly every Republican member of Congress who claiming that 430 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election was stolen. I mean that alone, 431 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 4: that's terrible for democracy, right, And so I do think 432 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 4: these conspiracy theories, and this is certainly something that experts 433 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 4: on Russia that said kind of runs a muck in Russia. 434 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 4: This idea where if anything bad happens for the regime, 435 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 4: you can say, oh, it was these sinister forces, and 436 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 4: so that that is. 437 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 438 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: I think it's awful for democracy, And in terms of 439 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 4: having an informed public, yeah, it's not good. 440 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: No, especially if everyone who gets a job. These are 441 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: serious jobs. These institutions are very powerful and if they're misused, 442 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: can really be dangerous to Americans and foreigners around the world. 443 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: So you got the FBI, the CIA, the Defense Department, 444 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: our Army, Navy, all of these things are really powerful organizations. 445 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: And to get those jobs, have to agree to follow conspiracy. 446 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: You have to say the twenty twenty election was stolen 447 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: and the January sixth was a day of love. Just 448 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: to get in the door, you have to be complicit 449 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: in a lie, and most of those people at some 450 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: level have to know they're lying and they're complicit to 451 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: get those jobs. And that's a real dangerous place, especially 452 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: for the intelligence community. Intelligence is about trying to find 453 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: truth to the extent that you can try to provide 454 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: your best guess on what's really happening. We take pride 455 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: in giving intelligence to policymakers that they may not want 456 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: to hear because this is you know, Jerry works in 457 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: India or Afghanistan or Germany, and he's trying to explain 458 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: to our policymakers what's really happening on the ground, so 459 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: that they may be upset because it's not fitting with 460 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 1: their policy, but eventually it's going to make them make 461 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: better policy. But from the outset, if you can't tell 462 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: your leaders the truth, that's a real dangerous thing, and 463 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: that can cause things to go away quickly. 464 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: More of this after a quick break, and. 465 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: So let me ask you one question I just thought of. 466 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: This is not connected to that. Is Ivan Rakeland. Whatever 467 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: happened to him? He was like the guy the secretary 468 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: of Retribution and he was coming after Jerry and I 469 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: and I haven't heard about him lately, So what's his. 470 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, this was the guy with the list of the 471 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 4: all the enemies we're going to get to when Trump 472 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 4: gets elected. You know, it's interesting, I think some of 473 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 4: these guys, you know, there was a lot of coverage 474 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 4: of him and this idea, you know, he's going to 475 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 4: come in and then showed Trump the list in the 476 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 4: Oval office. But that's a guy it's a little unclear 477 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 4: to me how much sort of cloud he actually enjoys 478 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 4: with the administration, you know, you have, But at the 479 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: same time, you have some of these figures who seem 480 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 4: so outlandish, and you think Laura, well, and I was 481 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 4: gonna bring that up, I mean, and now she's just 482 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 4: a person who has done all these stunts. I mean, 483 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 4: for many years she was considered like too crazy or 484 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 4: too embarrassing for even a lot of right wing people 485 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 4: to associate with. And now she's purging the National Security Council, 486 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 4: supposedly getting rid of the NSA director, and that story 487 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 4: that is such a crazy story. And yet there's that 488 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 4: was almost like brushovers, like well, what can you do? 489 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 4: That is crazy stuff that on a nine to eleven 490 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 4: conspiracy theorist is going in and saying, yah, you should 491 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 4: get rid of this guy because he used to work 492 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 4: in the republican relatively sane foreign policy establishment. 493 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: Apparently one of the questions to get a job in 494 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: the Trump administration, yes, formally or informally, is nine to 495 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 2: eleven an inside job. In January seventh, I don't even 496 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: know what inside job means, because there's such a broad 497 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: spectrum of conspiracy theories about both of them, right it 498 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: was like it was the Jews, or it was the 499 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 2: US government, or it was the Saudis, or January sixth 500 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: it was Antifa. No, it's not Antifa. It was the FBI. No, 501 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 2: it wasn't FBI because nothing bad happened, it was all good. 502 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm not even sure you know what the conspiracy theories are. 503 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: I get the conspiracy theory clear first. I know, it's 504 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: like there's such as there's such a wide spectrum of 505 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: moment ie put them all straight. 506 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 4: Well, often it is tricky because often there is there's 507 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 4: not like one specific conspiracy theory they're asking you to believe. 508 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 4: They're saying, don't you think that's a little odd? You know, 509 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 4: it's sort of that reflexive and I think offense, sort 510 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 4: of immature skepticism that is really what they're pushing, rather 511 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 4: than a specific one idea which could be disproven or not, 512 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 4: Rather than you're just being asked to say, don't you 513 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 4: want to look behind the curtain? Don't you really want 514 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 4: to understand the world and outside? They draw people in, 515 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 4: and I think some of. 516 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: It is obviously for entertainment. Some of it is just 517 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: taking advantage of people's predilections. A lot of it is 518 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: for domestic politic. So you want to say the Democrats 519 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,719 Speaker 1: your enemies, you need to create stories to make them enemies. 520 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: But then when people start to believe those things, then 521 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: it goes to that next level. And that's what's unusual 522 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: about this administration is they seem to be happy weaponizing 523 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: that without worrying about what the implications are further down 524 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: the road. And we've seen a lot of people Republicans 525 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: who are probably even in the first Trump administration, ready 526 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: to follow along, who at some point couldn't keep up 527 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: with it and then they got turned on. So the 528 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: question for you is like, how do we get out 529 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: of this? And I know that's a hard question maybe 530 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: the right answer, but is this something that is this 531 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: a Donald Trump phenomenon that is bringing it to the 532 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: surface and it's always going to be there, but it's 533 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: never gonna be as bad as it is now? Or 534 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: are we going past the rubicon and it's going to 535 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: be part of our life and we might not be 536 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: able to get away from it. 537 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 4: I think in many ways, I think, at least for 538 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 4: the foreseeable, the next couple decades or something. I think 539 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 4: this kind of conspiratorial thinking and this populism is really 540 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 4: with us for a long time, whether it's going to 541 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 4: be in and out of power. But I do think 542 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 4: just so many fact actors, whether it's the Internet or 543 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 4: the rise of Trump or anything else, I think this 544 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 4: is very much going to be with us. And you know, yeah, 545 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 4: I mean I think unfortunately it's something we're gonna have 546 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 4: to learn to drapple with. 547 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: It's we're sort of seems like we're stuck in and 548 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: never before. It's like, on one hand, now we've got 549 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: a cult, right, it's no longer that the cult is 550 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: the GOP. There's not a And then we've got the 551 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: Democratic Party, which is you know, has a lot of 552 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: warts and it can be kind of wishy washy, and 553 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: I'm not really sure what the Democrat because it's a 554 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 2: conglomeration of like different factions and not a whole lot 555 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: of people with powerful magnetic personalities. Although Chuck Trumer may 556 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: be like talking sense, but he's not like inspiring anybody, right, 557 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: I mean, he just isn't. Sorry Chuck, but you know, 558 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 2: is this sort of what we're stuck with is boring 559 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: and insipid but maybe right and then just deadly wrong, 560 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: but sort of like simple and charismatic. Yeah, I just don't. 561 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 2: I don't quite know what to For most people, it's 562 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: an easy choice, it should be, but it's more fun 563 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: to go with a cult, right. 564 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 4: About giving Yeah, Well, I mean I do think democrats 565 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 4: are hopefully I think these kind of these stunts, and 566 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 4: I mean that in a positive way. About Chris van 567 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 4: Holland going down to El Salvador, for example, I think 568 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 4: we're starting to see democrats or Cory Bookers filibuster more 569 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 4: examples of Democrats realizing we need to do things that 570 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 4: are getting attention, not just going on the same place 571 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 4: as where I was going on and just complaining about it. So, 572 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 4: you know, if you look for a little optimism, I 573 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 4: think it's there is that hopefully Democrats are starting to 574 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 4: realize that you have to compete in these spaces, whether 575 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 4: it's podcasts or vertical short form video or. 576 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: What have you. I just hope that to get out 577 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 2: of this, we don't have to crash the economy and right, 578 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: that's the other way of burning it out is have 579 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: it been just such a friggin failure that except for 580 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: the twenty percent hardcore who don't mind losing their four 581 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 2: to one case and houses. 582 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: And they'll just blame somebody. Well, yeah, yeah, Russia. Russia's 583 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: economy has gone to hell. They've had to give it 584 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: over to the Chinies. They're slaughtering more people per day 585 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: in Ukraine than we lost in twenty years in Afghanistan. 586 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: But Putin is able to blame it on. It's the Americans, 587 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: it's a NATO, it's there's always somebody to blame in 588 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: those situations. And Trump has that skill, right. 589 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 590 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 4: You look at after the financial crisis, and they basically 591 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 4: the Republican line became it was too easy for minorities 592 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 4: to get houses, and that's why the financial crisis happened. 593 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: And I think they can always come up with some 594 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 4: shred of evidence to blame somebody. 595 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: Biden. 596 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Will, thank you very much. We will continue 597 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: to follow your reporting. He reports for The Bulwark and 598 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: he has a newsletter called The False Flag. I would 599 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: encourage you to continue to follow him. 600 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: Will. 601 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: It was a real pleasure. 602 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, thanks for having me