WEBVTT - Justice Clarence Thomas One-on-One (Part 1) 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.360 Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Ted Cruz, and 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.160 today we have a very special podcast. On August twenty fifth, 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:09.720 my brand new book is coming out. It's my fifth book, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.080 and it is entitled Going Further, The Incomparable Clarence Thomas. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.480 And this book does a couple of things. Number One, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.079 it tells the story of Justice Thomas, a truly extraordinary 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.320 human being, an extraordinary justice. It tells his life story, 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.720 a journey that is unlike the journey of any other 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.080 justice who has served on the Supreme Court. But it 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.840 also takes up his three decades of jurisprudence and tries 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.680 to explain it in a way that is accessible, a 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.160 way that is understandable, a way that brings home why 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.199 it matters, why it matters for the Court, why it 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.600 matters for the Constitution, why it matters for the country 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.320 and today what makes this podcast very special. And by 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.680 the way, the book will be available August twenty fifth. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.160 You can pre order it. There's a special website for 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.520 that called Goingfurther dot com. Goingfurther dot com, I would 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.320 encourage you go to the way website pre ordered the book, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.399 and today's podcast is a very special one. Because our 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.360 guest is none other than the incomparable Justice Clarence Thomas. 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:12.080 Justice welcomes, Well, thank you. It's a little embarrassing to 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.360 be called incomparable. Let me call lots of things. Well, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:17.560 thank you, thank you. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.800 I really appreciate your joining us. I think this is 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.320 the first podcast you've ever done. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:27.520 I have no idea, I think so. I don't normally 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:32.520 do any sort of I don't do much media type thing. So, 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.760 but you're you. I mean, I've known you now but 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.360 thirty years. Yeah, I'm seeing you through different phases in 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.760 your life as a law clerk, hanging out in my 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:52.280 chambers as the SG at Texas announced senator. So it's 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.680 been a long journey. And also it's also an opportunity 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.680 to say you're one of the people who actually stands 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:05.960 up uh, particularly at times when others seemed to wither, 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:11.440 and I appreciate it, and more personally, when my wife 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:18.839 and I were under attack for obvious reasons, you and 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.000 Mike Lee and some of the other friends of stand 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:23.680 up Senator Kennedy, et cetera. 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.440 So I really appreciate. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.800 That, Justice, that that is very kind of you, and 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.880 especially for you to observe that I stand up in 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.840 the face of criticism and attacks. That is that is 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.800 powerful coming from you, because you're someone who knows knows 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.639 what that's like and has done so in a way 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:48.600 that has been been world changing. And so Justice Thomas 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.760 decades ago wrote a phenomenal autobiography, My Grandfather's Son, and 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.920 You told your own story, and it's it's, it's it 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.600 may be the best autobiography I've ever read. I read 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.720 it at the time it came out. It inspired me. Actually, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:08.560 shortly after it came out, I was at home and 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.799 as it so happened, a young African American boy came 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.120 he's probably fifteen sixteen years old, came by the house 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.200 and I think he was selling magazines or something. Knocked 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.280 on the door and I struck up a conversation with it. 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:20.840 I went and grabbed the book and gave it to 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.560 him and said, look, you should. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:23.160 Read this this. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.000 You may not have heard Justice Thomas's story and journey, 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.240 but I hope this will inspire you. And I think 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.840 for a lot of the folks who listen to the 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.400 podcast or watched the podcast, and some people listen to 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.240 it on their phones, others watch it on YouTube or Facebook. 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.839 They know who you are, but they don't know your 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.680 actual story. And it is, as I mentioned at the beginning, 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.680 it is unlike any other justices on the court. So 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.480 maybe we can just start with tell us about growing up. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.480 You grew up in Pinpoint, Georgia. What was it like 0:03:58.560 --> 0:03:59.080 growing up? 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.400 I was born in Pinpoint, but and most of my 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.600 growing up I've been fortunate. I think the misfortunes you 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.400 have can lead to different things. And the house and 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.520 Pinpoint burnt down, burned down when I was six in 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.479 the first grade. Then we went and we lived in 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.320 a tenement with my mother in one room in Savannah 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.919 for about a year and eventually wound up living with 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.640 our grandparents, moving there when I was seven, And that 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.479 was probably, well, actually was the best thing that could 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.800 have ever happened to me, because that was life changing. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.039 You describe in your book, and I recount in my 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.000 book when you're in that tenement and that it did 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.279 not have indoor plumbing, and so you used a chamber 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.120 pot and you describe walking down the stairs carrying a 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.960 chapel down. Yeah, it ended up being coated in urine. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:57.919 It's a pretty. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.400 Yeah, well it was, you know, sort of When I 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.880 think of people saying they're having a bad day, and 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.599 you're seven years old, and that happens, and you don't 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.800 have like a shower or the kind of a bathroom 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.599 that people would normally have, you realize, I mean they're 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:26.279 to me, it defined a bad day, but then things 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.760 that happened after that are outweigh that. You know, there's 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.760 a wonderful song by a black minister that you hear 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.120 from time to time if you go to a funeral 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:45.120 at small southern Black churches, and I won't complain, and 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.080 you know, you can have all these bad things. Just 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.200 let me of bad things happen, and you can say, 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.480 I won't complain because it's outweighed by all the good 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.680 things that have happened. And that's pretty much my life. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:03.520 And those good things began with my grandparents. And my 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:08.040 grandfather was a Catholic convert, so which was an oddity. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.120 Catholics were an oddity in Savannah. Black Catholics were really 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.760 an oddity, and it was because of that we were 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.520 educated at parochial schools with my Irish nuns and those 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.800 in combination my grandparents and neighborhood. I grew up in 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:37.520 the nuns. Catholicism forged on a foundation that I've benefited 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:39.160 from well. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.720 And your deep faith is integral to who you are. 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:45.359 Who you are as a man. I think who you 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.520 are as a justice to your journey. Many people don't 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.200 know you almost became a priest, and for a long 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.000 time you thought that's what you wanted to do. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.720 Well, I think I would have been a priest. 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.960 And had the bishops at the time, or the leadership 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:03.960 and the church been as firm and has had the 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:10.520 resolve of the nuns during segregation and desegregation and civil 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:16.320 rights movement, et cetera. My nuns were immovable interesting as 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:21.480 far as their propagation of the faith, their belief in us. 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.640 They were the ones who planted the seed that in 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.320 God's eyes and you heard it at home too, were 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.680 all equal that God made it, We were made in 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:34.920 His image and likeness. 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.280 And so were the nuns more willing to speak out 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:39.240 about civil rights. 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.480 They were in their way, of course, they they had 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.320 a vow of chastity and poverty and obedience. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.000 So there's only so much. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.520 But they were adamant, and they were adamant outwardly to 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.400 the world and inwardly to us, so we couldn't use 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.200 race or some of the other things as excuses. And 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:07.880 it's hard to put it in context. But when I 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.000 was in the second and third grade, this is again 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.920 post Brown, and the Georgia legislature was in the midst 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:22.680 of drafting legislation that was reasserting segregation. And so it's people. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.360 And for our listeners, Brown and Brown versus Board of 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.640 Education right, which was a seminal, seminal Supreme Court decision 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:34.160 nineteen fifty four that overturned plusy versus Ferguson, Plus versus Ferguson, 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.920 I think is one of the most almost everyone thinks 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.080 is one of the most disgraceful decisions the courts has 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:45.520 ever decided. Where it it embraced the doctrine of separate 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.959 but equal, and Brown overturned it and ordered that schools 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.560 be desegregated. And you were you were a student when this, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.520 I mean this impacted your life. 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.800 Well, I started first grade in nineteen fifty four, but 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.520 still schools was still second cregated. 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:02.600 And when I went. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.240 Do you remember, as a little kid, like being a 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.480 first grader, were you aware of Brown at the time? 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.599 Well, no, Brown had almost I mean you're a kid. Yeah, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.960 in school was meant you got like a new pair 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.480 of pants. And it was the first time I had 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.880 been to school. I went with my cousins, a little 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.920 school called Haven Homes School. But then when the house 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.880 burned down, I moved. And there's a big difference between 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:30.200 urban poverty and rural. And rural we were with relatives. 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.360 It was we were always together. You could run around barefooted, 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:35.720 and everybody knew. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.480 You grow up with English as your first language. 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:43.240 Well, there was a version. We people know it now 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.880 they celebrated. Back then, they used to make fun of us. 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.920 In Georgia, there's a dialect called Geechee, and in South 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.760 Carolina they call it Gullah. But it's just it's a 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:01.200 petois that for people who were not who did not 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.120 assimilate in the culture, or who were not a part 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:08.160 of the culture. We were isolated near the water, so 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.240 you kept that language. And that's the way until I 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.440 moved to Savannah. That was all I knew. They called us. 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.560 Back then, they said we were bad talking. Today they 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:24.680 celebrated it was a cultural thing. But when I moved 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:29.319 to Savannah, you were in urban poverty, which was quite different. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.880 And I'm not going to go into all the details, 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.920 but then when you go when I went to live 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.520 with my grandparents, even though schools were segregated, they were 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.800 parochial schools, and that was different from the public schools 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:46.320 because there was quite a. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:47.000 Bit of order. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.360 You wore uniform, the bell rang at a certain time, 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.480 you said the pledge of allegiance in the school yard 0:10:54.600 --> 0:11:00.959 before you marched in. You had religion, you hadochism. Class 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.640 was the first class. It was every unison, good morning, sister. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:06.880 There was a lot of order, and that's what my 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:08.040 grandfather wanted. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:14.040 Now, I think anyone understanding your life has to start 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.880 by understanding your grandfather. You were raised by your grandparents principally, 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.000 and your grandfather, myrs Anderson. I think you would say 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.559 was the most important man in your life. And tell 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.200 us about your grandfather. 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.720 Well, I mean he was not only the most important. 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.520 I think he's the greatest man I've known. And my 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:37.120 grandmother is the greatest woman. They were, And that's what 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.480 I mean when I say, look, you can look at 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.199 the negative side of things, but the blessings are enormous. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.320 I mean to be Just think of the idea of 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.920 living with those two people and being raised by them, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.120 and you can, after all these years say that they 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.520 are the two greatest people you've ever known. 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.760 Well, and he instilled a lot of discipline in you. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.280 He was, I think a hard man and a strong man. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.040 Where you're from Texas. When you live a hard life, 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.040 you have to be hard or you collapse. I mean 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:16.320 the day we are inundated with fragile people, you are 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.040 not permitted. I mean, you live in poverty and you 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.040 have to figure things out. And he had total of 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.960 nine months of education. My grandmother had six years, and 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.840 those weren't six full years, six nine months. On they 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.840 knew how to make do with life. They knew how 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:39.640 to make a way in the world without no education. 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:45.680 So things that we have today like education, freedom, etc. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.280 They prize they dreamt about. They wanted us to have 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.160 a chance to have those things. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.320 Well, and your grandparents prioritized education with you and reading 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.200 in particular that that became an outlet for you as 0:12:59.240 --> 0:12:59.560 a boy. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.800 Well, they were absolute about education. But the other thing 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.520 was work. He didn't believe in sports. That was foolishness. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.600 We didn't have time for that. We delivered fuel oil 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.679 in the winter and we farmed in the summer. 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.520 On August twenty fifth, my brand new book comes out, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.480 Going Further, The Incomparable Clarence Thomas. It tells the story 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.360 of Justice Thomas, one of the true American hero is 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.200 an incredible story. It's based on nine and a half 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.080 hours of one on one exclusive interviews with Justice Thomas. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.760 You could pre order it right now at the website 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:41.120 Goingfurther dot com. Goingfurther dot Com. Click on the link 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.360 now and pre order the book today. You know, one 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.680 story you told that stood out to me is that 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.680 when you were delivering fuel oil and there were times 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.800 when it was really cold, your grandfather wouldn't let you 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:53.360 wear gloves. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:58.600 Now he'd gotten he lost a finger on his right hand, 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.040 and he never really got too much into the details 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.640 of it, but it must have involved the glove because 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:10.920 he would not I know, he got gott in a 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.320 chain or winch was something that ripped it off about 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.319 right about the first knuckle or below the first knuckle, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:26.520 And so he would make us work with no gloves, 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.080 and for us cold would be forty degrees in Georgia. 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:36.400 You felt like you were freezing. But he believed it 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.280 was a way not to be harsh or anything like that. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.080 It was he thought safety or safer not to have 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:43.680 gloves on. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:49.400 Now you tell a story about being in Catholic High 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.680 school and one of the boys passing you a note 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.360 about Martin Luther King. Tell us that that story and 0:14:58.400 --> 0:14:59.080 how it impacted you. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.680 Well, it was only that was only one student out 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:09.480 of dozens, and there was one bad apple, and he 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.320 wasn't there very long. But it was my first year 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.840 in the seminary and there were two of us, two 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.800 blacks in the seminary. I was the only one in 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.440 my class. I was a sophomore. There was a young 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.400 man behind me in the ninth grade. And the note 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.680 was I mean, it was offensive, but it wasn't debilitating. 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.680 And you say, you consider the sender and it just 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:39.920 said on the outside something like I like Martin Luther King. 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.080 And then you opened it up and said dead on 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:43.760 the inside something like that. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.160 And it was you know, again. 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.440 This is nineteen sixty four, sixty five, A lot going on, 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.960 and you know, I knew who it was. I know 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.200 who it is. I'm not going to say who it was. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.800 But he left after a year or so and that 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:04.920 was that. But the rest of my classmates were. 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.600 And have been just phenomenal. You know. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.960 They I was treated better there in the minor seminary, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.920 because remember where at the beginning of desegregation. This is 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.120 nineteen sixty four. The next two years after my first year, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.240 I'd be the only black in that school. And I 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.080 was treated very well. I was a really good student. 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.800 I was treated fairly. That The great thing about it 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.640 was if you got a ninety five in physics, you 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.320 got a ninety five in physics. Latin was a nemesis 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:43.360 of most kids. I did very, very well at Saint 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.240 John vi Ani Minor Seminaries, and I have zero complaints. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:52.000 It was again one of the benefits that I received 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.600 in Savannah. I was treated and I'd like to say 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.680 this for obvious reasons. I was treated better there, and 0:16:58.720 --> 0:16:59.920 I was at Yale. 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:06.359 Well, and and uh your time at Yale. In fact, 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.320 you draw an analogy between two kinds of snakes, which 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:11.880 I think is revealing well. 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.560 I think most people who live in rural areas know 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.360 the difference. My grandfather always used this analogy. And if 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.240 you the difference between a rattlesnake and a marcasin which 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.240 we had both and they were pretty big in Georgia 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.840 and South Georgia. A rattlesnake always warned you, and if 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:32.840 you gave it time, it'll get out of your way 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:33.760 and leave you. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.680 You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:41.280 A Marcusin was basically wouldn't warn you, and its attitude was, look, 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:42.960 I was here first, and you're going to have a 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.119 bad day, and I'm not moving. But his point was 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:51.240 about the warning that you had some people in Georgia 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.080 who didn't like blacks, and they were bigots, and they 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:54.879 were openly so. 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.280 And what you said is the Southern the Southern racist 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:03.640 were they were They made noise and they were visible. 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.000 But when you went to the North and the Northeast, 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.080 they were like moccasins. They were hidden until they'd strike. 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.800 And and the attitude that was sort of one of 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.800 the things that surprised me. We were told basically that 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.920 the North was the holy Grail. So it was shocking 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.080 to see in New England the kind of ethnic divisions, 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.760 the bigotry toward minorities, et cetera. 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.879 Now, what is it that attracted you to being a priest, 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:35.720 because that's that's what you thought you wanted to spend 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:36.600 your life doing. 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.400 Well I'm Catholic. I was an altar boy. I loved 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.280 being an altar boy. I loved We used to get 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.959 these magazines, the marin Old Priests and uh serving you know, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:55.399 kids who were had disease, or were poor, or were 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:00.240 having difficulties, and you get you began you begin to 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.320 feel that that would be a good way to spend 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.159 your life. And then it becomes an issue when you 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.320 enter the minor seminary. It's really a time of discernment 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.840 and to see whether you have the capabilities. And I 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.840 like the idea of being called to serve to do that. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:24.240 You know, when you have a vocation, you're asking yourself, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.119 what is God calling me to do? And that became 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:34.760 actually again, but for the weakness of the bishops, I 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:40.000 think I'd be a priest today, or not specific bishops, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.280 but the church itself seemed to be vacillating on the 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:48.080 issue of race. And to me, the big, the major 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:53.920 wrong in the country, the major contradiction in this country 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.159 was the race issue that you treat you can place 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.720 in the important of equality at the center of your 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.760 founding document, right, and then you have this issue of 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.240 slavery and its offshoots. 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:16.560 Well, and the church was slow to recognize that. One 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:22.120 point that I make many times is you look at 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.760 doctor King's letter from Birmingham jail, and people forget to 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.400 whom it is addressed. It's addressed to the clergy of America. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.760 He's writing to the leaders of the church saying, wake 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.919 up and speak up. And my favorite portion of that letter, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:44.680 there's a group of senators, bipartisan senators who regularly read 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:46.720 that letter on the floor of the Senate. It's really 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.560 powerful to read the words out loud. And there's a 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.919 portion in it where he says the church should be 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.679 a thermostat and not a thermometer, that it should be 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.280 changing society and not just reacting to what's around. That's 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.639 ultimately what led you to leave, leave the seminary and 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:05.400 say that that you were not going to go down 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:06.200 the path of a b. 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:08.560 I think it was I think it was an overreaction. 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:09.960 I think I was nineteen years. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.960 Old and when doctor King was assassinated, that was. 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:15.280 That was a moment. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.280 That was I was in my first year in college 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.400 in the seminary where I would love to I love 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:25.560 the Benedictines. I was there and magnic exception Seminary in Missouri. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.919 I loved being there, the people, it was wonderful. But 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.600 it was it was not there that things were difficult. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.400 It was the world around me. It was the church generally. 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.280 I thought that as a sort of a moral beacon, 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.800 we should talk about the court, that we should have 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.520 taken a leadership role in the church. 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:53.640 All right, I want to take a second. I want 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:55.040 to talk to you about a way that you can 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.639 have a huge difference in the life of someone that 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.080 desperately needs you right now. If you're going to change 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.400 someone's life, you want to know it actually lasts. And 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.440 that is one of the reasons why I want you 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.520 to know about Compassion International. Now they become one of 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:15.360 the most trusted child development ministries in the world. Independent 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:20.080 research shows children sponsor through Compassion stay in school longer, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.199 They're forty percent more likely to graduate high school and 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.480 eighty percent more likely to finish college. That's because sponsorship 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.600 isn't just temporary relief. It's long term investment through the 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:36.359 local church, meeting physical needs while sharing the hope of Jesus. 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.320 And for forty three dollars a month, you can help 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:44.240 shape a child's future. So do what I did sponsor 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.159 a child today and have a real impact at Compassion 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.679 dot com. That is Compassion dot com. 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.480 Now, you went from the Seminary to holy Cross and 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.560 then Yale Law School. A lot of people people listening, 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:04.000 I mean, they know you were one of the greatest 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.760 conservative leaders to have ever lived, but as a young man, 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.960 you were not in any way, shape or form a conservative. 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:17.680 To tell folks what your worldview was as a nineteen 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:18.480 twenty twenty one. 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:22.160 Year old, well, I think when you're nineteen and you're angry, 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.400 you're confused. For the most part, I came from a 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.920 very traditional background. In fact, as I went through that period, 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.480 when I quit the seminary and returned home, my grandfather 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:38.120 invited me to leave his house immediately, and so I've 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:40.680 basically been on my own since then. And of course, 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:41.200 as you're. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.520 Nineteen, and that was a hard moment, Oh, that was. 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.359 It was more than hard, and hard as an understate 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.200 the And it was in that vein or in that 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.600 posture that I wound up going to New England in 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:56.360 sort of a negative posture. 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:02.080 And I think we have we react to our. 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:08.080 Circumstances in certain ways, and I was reacting to the 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:13.520 church's have sort of not doing what it should be doing. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.720 I react, overreacted. I reacted as a nineteen year olds emotionally. 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:21.280 And you were angry at the time, you were angry 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:22.920 at God. You stopped going to mass. 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:26.760 I well, I left the church completely, and I think 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:32.439 if I had it to do over, I wouldn't. I 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:36.440