1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: I remember what it felt like about a year ago 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: when the pandemic really fully landed in the US. Everything 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: was different, Everything got shut down. I went the Whole Foods. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: They had run out of kale. That was kind of 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: like the tip to me that things were going to 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: be different, because Whole Foods has one job stock Kale, 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: maybe two jobs. Stock Kale charged me too much money 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: for the Kale. When they canceled south By Southwest and 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: the NBA, it felt even more real when there was 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: no toilet paper to come by. It felt freaky, legitimately concerning, 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: like why is it hard to get toilet paper? And 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: for me, I had such a mobile life. I was 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: on and off planes constantly. My life was predicated on 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: super spreader events, comedy shows and conferences and fast of 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Us and all that had come to an end and 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: I was just at home. But I still needed to 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: get out. So I started walking where I used to 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: fly and I used to be in cars. I would 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: just had my feet and I was walking through my 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: neighborhood every day to get out of the house, get 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: out of this head space of fear, of anxiety, of death. 22 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: When I turned on the screens in my life they 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: were filled with bad news world surpassing one million deaths 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: from the coronavirus. President Trump not guilty of abuse of power. Australia, 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: where they're facing those masterupted following the arrest and death 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: of George Floyd Briana Taylor year old ah mod Arbor, 27 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old Jacob Blake be about the hundred 28 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: day of protest in Portland's police declared a riot. Can 29 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: I find something else out in the world that would 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,919 Speaker 1: give me a bit of where I could see people 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: doing something other than wallowing in the sorrow, you know? 32 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: And I found it. Keep in my I found it 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: in the form of wildlife, and I'm talking to all 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: kinds of animals I wasn't used to seeing. It was 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: like some kind of PBS special happening in my own hood. 36 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: We had hawks and possum and coyotes. I saw Black 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: Lives Matter signs everywhere, and I saw people helping each other. 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: I saw people setting up community fridges and community pantries 39 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: to help those in need. I remember this sign I 40 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: saw it said presidents are temporary, boutang is forever. I 41 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: love it, and that put a smile on my face 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: and helped me keep walking, and even with all the 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: stress and depression and anxiety and anger and what COVID 44 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: has brought, I was also grateful to be grounded in 45 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: some way, and in a lot of ways. Things have 46 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: started through the past year. At the end of this 47 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: last twelve months, things have started to look up. I mean, 48 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: we may have dropped the ball on the masks, but 49 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: we're vaccine and like it's going out of style. Not one, 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: not two, but three at last count vaccines available to us. 51 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: That's dope. We had an historic presidential and vice presidential race, 52 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: and we've been rewarded for our good works by things 53 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: like how does any come to be chilled? You know 54 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like it's just it felt like candy 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: sugar we deserve. The point is I am proud of us, 56 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: we citizens. We turned up, We showed up for each other, 57 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: and I was starting to feel tentatively good again about 58 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: the whole project, not just not just my neighborhood, but 59 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: the wee thing, the democracy thing, and I just I 60 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: wanted so much for the simple story to be We 61 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: overcame the darkness and slung ourselves into the light. We 62 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: took our democracy back and now We're ready to do 63 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: what's right. And uh, well, the story is not that simple. 64 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe what we're seeing right there, they're 65 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: just walking through Wearer Capital. Police clearly gets you know, 66 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: this has gotten out of hand. These protesters got up 67 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: the steps, they reached the barricades. On the same day 68 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: that we got Senators Reverend Raphael Warnock and Senator John 69 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Assaf we got something else. We got an insurrection. We 70 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: got an attack on our capital, on our democracy, on 71 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: the people's house. This is a system built on people power, 72 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: and our house was invaded by people denying votes, being 73 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: unwilling to accept the results of the election. I felt 74 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: so angry, so angry, in part because I was in 75 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: a party mood I really wanted to celebrate, and in 76 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: part because it just it felt like the lesson was 77 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: it is too good to be true. And it wasn't 78 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: just because of people with guns who were largely white, 79 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: waving Confederate flags stormed the U. S. Capital. It was 80 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: that they had permission to do it. When I saw 81 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: the attack on the Capitol, I was angry and disgusted. 82 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: I must be watching a movie. This can't be actually happening. 83 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: They knew this was coming. They knew this was coming. 84 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: If it had been protesters, they would have had the 85 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: National Guard out. I've seen how the police treat people 86 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: in Minnesota. Anchor shocked, but I think ultimately mostly sadness. 87 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: Washington is my hometown. I was taught unbelieved. This is 88 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: my country. I'm a citizen. The capital is my beautiful house. 89 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: Those bastards invaded my capital. They desecrated my house. As 90 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: this attack on our democracy was unfolding, I felt frustrated, 91 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: I felt angry, I felt hopeless. I thought maybe things 92 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: were getting better. And then on January six, I was 93 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: reminded somewhat naively how divided we are, or how separate 94 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: we are, and I was left wondering, can this even work? 95 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: This being the whole democratic experiment thing, this being us 96 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: living together with our differences thing, this being making a 97 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: democracy that works for the many, not just a few. 98 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: Can we actually do that? This is how the Citizens 99 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: Season two. I'm barytone Day Thurston, and I want to 100 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: welcome you. If you are coming back from season one 101 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: or whether you're new. We are taken on a big 102 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: topic this season, division and we're digging into the core 103 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: of what I think creates that division. But more on 104 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: that later. In the meantime, let me tell you about 105 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: the types of folks. We are gonna be talking to, bankers, brewers, 106 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: social scientists, all kinds of people who are helping us 107 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: bridge that divide. You need to have that e can 108 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: freedom in order to have the political equality and the 109 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: political freedom. First up, Astra Taylor, after the breaking and 110 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: we're moving there. And then one more record button for 111 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: good measure? Do you want me to record over here? Yes, 112 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: thank you? Director, I play one on TV podcasts. I'm 113 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: here with Astra Taylor, who wrote and directed the documentary 114 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: What Is Democracy. For the film, Astra traveled all over 115 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: the US and even to Greece in hopes of answering 116 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: this question. It's a question has been on my mind 117 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: a lot, especially since January. Now, most of us trying 118 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: to figure out that question. We just google it, but 119 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Astra did a lot more than that, and I wanted 120 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: to know why. I'm looking for a moment in your 121 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: life when you started to question the concept of democracy. 122 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: Can you take us there for me? If anything kicked 123 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: off in September of two thousand eleven to the movement 124 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: of Occupy Well Street in New York, Thousands of demonstrators 125 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: descended on the financial district as big Occupy Wall Street 126 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: started in response to the bailout of the big banks, right, 127 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 1: and it was a protest against the fact that even 128 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: with Obama in the White House, there was a sense 129 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: that regular people were being left to drown in this 130 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: epic financial crisis, and that it was a sign of 131 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: the fact that our democracy wasn't working. And I was 132 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: in the streets with others and we were saying that 133 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: chance that you always hear, this is what democracy looks like. 134 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: This is what democracy looks like. And my my mind 135 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: would be like, huh is it? Like? What is democracy? 136 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Do you even want this thing? Is democracy what the 137 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: powerful say it is? Or is it really just us, 138 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: like a few hundred people in this park, like are 139 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: we democracy? You know, I like us, but I feel 140 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: pretty powerless, and you know it's democracy just a protest? 141 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: Is it just this uprising and the spontaneous thing? Or 142 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: can it be actually structured? Can we actually make democracy 143 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: in our laws, in our institutions. And it set me 144 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: off on this path of writing a book about democracy, 145 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: making a film about democracy, and also my organizing, which 146 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: is really what matters to me and is basically, you know, 147 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: how do you actually do it? It's a verb. You 148 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: know a lot of people have opinions these days? How 149 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: do we do it? That's the greatest T shirt I've 150 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: yet to see. A lot of people have opinions these days. 151 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: So what was your definition of democracy before? Um, occupied 152 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: how would you describe your understanding of it? Before that? 153 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: I think I would have said, oh, democracies, government, democracies, bureaucracy, 154 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: It really doesn't have much to do with me, right um. 155 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: And Also, I wasn't technically a citizen. I was born 156 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: in Canada, I spent my whole life in the US. 157 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: I grew up in Georgia. But I knew I wasn't enfranchised. 158 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't even allowed to do this thing that people 159 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: associate with democracy, which is voting. And so it felt 160 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: like something that wasn't really part of my life. It 161 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: wasn't part of the my daily experience or my daily practice. 162 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's actually true for a lot of 163 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: people today, right. I Mean, what I discovered as I 164 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: started interviewing people many years later and making this film 165 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: is when I asked Americans on the street, you know, 166 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: what is democracy? They actually couldn't answer the question that 167 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: deeply or authentically, because in the end, how do you 168 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: describe something that you truly don't know? Can you take 169 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: me into that journey? These questions you were asking, what 170 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: are some of the stories you heard? One thing I 171 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: tried to do in the film was questioned, who's an 172 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: expert in democracy? So typically when you go to talk 173 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: to someone about democracy, if you're a journalist or a 174 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: podcaster or a filmmaker, you'll go to a professor of 175 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,599 Speaker 1: political science, right, or maybe a professional politician. But democracy 176 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: involves us all in theory, right, it means the most 177 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: the people Kratos have power or rule, And so there's 178 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: no credential you have to have to get into the demos. 179 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: You don't need a PhD to be part of the demos. 180 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: So what I wanted to do in the way a 181 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: structure of this film was to position these kids from 182 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: this middle school next to great thinkers, right, to have 183 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: their voices ring out right next to someone crediting Rousseau 184 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: or Plato or some great philosopher. So I talked to 185 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: all sorts of people. I talked to school children, I 186 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: talked to some some fantastic middle schoolers UM in Overton, Miami. 187 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: What's what was the in depth analysis of a school 188 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: child in Miami. Well, it began where one would imagine 189 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: about the lunch, and the lunch doesn't taste good. But 190 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: it's not just that it doesn't taste good. It's coal, 191 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: which is an insult. And these kids said to me, 192 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: it could at least be warm, you know, if if 193 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: it's not delicious, And that became a whole thing about 194 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: how when they raised their voice to say we want 195 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: warm lunch, they're punished by the administrators who do things 196 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: like take the vending machines away. And then they said, 197 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: but we know it's not about our teachers. There are 198 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: the administrators, the principle, and then there's the county, the 199 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: kids said, and then there's the uh state, and then 200 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: there's Washington. I mean, these kids were twelve or thirteen, 201 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: and they weren't just saying, oh, these mean grown ups 202 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: won't let me eat, you know, donuts all day long. 203 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: They're saying this has implications. And then they also said, 204 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: why do you want to make us real powerless? Shouldn't 205 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: you want us to be democratic citizens of our school UM, 206 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: I interviewed trauma surgeons. I interviewed immigrant factory workers from 207 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: Guatemala who live in North Carolina. I interviewed people on 208 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: the street. I interviewed philosophers like Wendy Brown and Corner 209 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: west Um. I spoke to quite a few people who are, 210 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, politically the polar opposite of me. And then 211 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: I went to Greece, the supposed mythic birthplace of democracy. 212 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: So I'm getting this picture. You're traveling around the United 213 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: States of America, You're tapping into the demos to the people, 214 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: and then you do this super hyperlink to ancient Greece 215 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: and ask some of where these ideas started. Why did 216 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: you ask the question of the ancient Greeks and their 217 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: attitude store democracy. You know, it's very important to say 218 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: that democracy is a practice didn't begin an ancient Greece. 219 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something in the historical record shows 220 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: there are democratic society is all over in what we 221 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: now call Mexico and what we now call the African continent, 222 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Why it's important to go back 223 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,359 Speaker 1: to Greece, in my mind, is because it's this mythic birthplace. 224 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: They did give us the word that we use. The 225 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: word that we use is from the Greek the most crops. 226 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: And also the founding text of the Western political and 227 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: philosophical tradition is Plato's Republic. And I think this is 228 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: really interesting. So Plato was anti democracy. He was famously 229 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: skeptical of democracy, really, so he proposed an undemocratic society 230 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: as an alternative. But it wasn't a society that would 231 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: have been very egalitarian in terms of class, and that 232 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: limited the sort of perverse incentives that can twist the 233 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: political leaders. So what Plato says, he says, you know 234 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: the problem with democracy is that it devolves into tyranny. 235 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: It just isn't stable. It's an unstable system. And why 236 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: is it unstable Because they're rich abuse the poor and 237 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: they bury them in debt, and they know basically exploit them. 238 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: They extract all of this wealth. So there's incredible income polarization. 239 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: Inequality is destabilizing, and so then the people vote for 240 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: a demagogue. What Plato called all this right, and so 241 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: Plato says, you know what I think we should do 242 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: to fix this is create a class of rulers who 243 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: love wisdom. And there were men and women's a philosopher 244 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: kings and queens, they called them, and they would have 245 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: to be indigent. They can't have any property, no kickbacks, right, 246 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: So impoverished property lists lovers of wisdom and they'll make 247 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: things better. So we can say, matty professors with no 248 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: no incentives, you know, no political donations. So I think 249 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: it's all about letting ourselves be provoked, letting ourselves be 250 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: engaged in thought experiments. Of course this doesn't answer our problems, 251 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: but let it provoke us to think for our own time. 252 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: We don't need a class of philosopher kings and queens. 253 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: We need to all be philosophers though, because democracy demands 254 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: we all engage philosophically, and it will only work if 255 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: we all have the space to reflect on that level, 256 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: which means we all have to have the time, which 257 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: means we all have to be fed, which means we 258 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: all have to be sheltered, which means we all have 259 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: to be okay. So then we can do this work 260 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: of democracy. I've seen a hand to something here, but 261 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: before we get there, I just need to understand what 262 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: did ancient Greek society look like in real life? Was 263 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: it anything like what we have now? Greeks did have 264 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: a very unique society. But the Greeks were slave owning society, 265 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: so a lot like the United States. It was a 266 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: democracy that was built on these incredible exclusions and exploitation 267 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: and dehumanization. So it was built an idea of freedom 268 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: based on other people's un freedom. Right, So it's a 269 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: problem at the heart of democracy we have to acknowledge. 270 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: But they had these amazing systems of participation for people 271 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: who counted as citizens, and so for example, they compensated 272 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: poor farmers and artisans so they could skip work so 273 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: they could be in the Assembly. It was like everybody 274 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: who counted as citizen could plan on being called up 275 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: to the equivalent of Congress in their life. Can you 276 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: imagine if we all had if we were all selected 277 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: by lottery, which is how they did it, to serve 278 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: in congress jury duty, but congress duty. Yeah, and I 279 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: think that's really important. They thought elections were undemocratic because 280 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: rich people, charismatic people, well connected people tend to win them. 281 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: So they thought you should do it like jury duty, 282 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: random selection. Um. I think that's a very provocative Greek 283 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: sound very radical. They sound so committed. Okay, more about 284 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: how what this practice looked like. No elections can script 285 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: people into legislative service. So yeah, they m randomly selected 286 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: people to serve in the council and then they suggested 287 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: some laws. But they also just ran the city. They 288 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: provided the social insurance programs, they handled the water and 289 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: the irrigation. Was based on this idea that democracy is 290 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: something you learned by doing. It's not that just a 291 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: special group of people are born with the ability to 292 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: run the city. We can all run the city together, 293 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: but we have to be called to do it. We 294 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: have to learn to do it. It's something that is 295 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: a priority for us if we're going to live together 296 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: as equals everyone I have ever known. I got a 297 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: jury duty summon It's like, how do I get out 298 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: of this? I can't imagine getting summoned to run the 299 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: water depart of it. What did did people actually serve 300 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: in these positions where people not trying to wease a 301 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: lot of their civic responsibilities. Oh, it was the highest honor. 302 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: And I get frustrated with people when they're they want 303 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: to get out their dreary duty, because I'm like, this 304 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: is our duty. We should be called to serve in 305 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: all of these other ways, um, they were compensated again, 306 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: so that way poor people could legislate, could govern next 307 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: to more affluent people. They recognize you have to compensate 308 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: folks to be able to do this, and it wasn't perfect. 309 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: Scholars of the period will say there were aristocrats, right, 310 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: people had more influence than others. But the point is 311 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: they were thinking about these problems we're not thinking about, 312 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: which is how do you create systems of equality? How 313 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: do you compensate people so they can truly participate? This 314 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: is why I'm saying that we are stuck. We just 315 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: aren't being very creative when you think about all the 316 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: tools at our disposal, and when we think democracy equals elections, 317 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: I think we have to be honest that that's actually 318 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: that might be an tradiction in terms We'll be right back. 319 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: We've been talking about ancient Greek democracy, not a perfect democracy, 320 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: probably not even the first one, but it does seem 321 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: like they were really onto something in terms of money 322 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: and true representation. So how does money affect our ability 323 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: to participate in a democracy? So I think you know, 324 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: we can name different kinds of freedom. So one is 325 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: political freedom. So this is do you have formal rights? 326 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: The formal rights that we associate with citizenship. Can you vote, right, 327 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: do you get social benefits? But there's also economic freedom, right, 328 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: It's like, well, can you afford to live? And these 329 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 1: things really need each other. You need to have that 330 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: economic freedom, You need to have that baseline of economic 331 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: egalitarianism in order to have the political equality and the 332 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: political freedom. To go back to the Greeks, I think 333 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that they recognize that for this class 334 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: of elites called citizens, that they needed to have economic resources. 335 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: So that's why they paid the farmers. That's why they 336 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: paid the artisans to participate. So I mean today, I 337 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: think you know, how I would describe our moment that 338 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: we're in now, is that our political democracy in the 339 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: United States, you know, doesn't live up to its name 340 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: because of the intense economic inequality that we have. Right. 341 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: So it's like, well, sure we all have one person, 342 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: one vote, but when there's a billionaire who can make 343 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: endless donations through a million dark money channels, like, that's 344 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: not political equality, right. It just makes a mockery of 345 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: the idea that we're actually equals in this society. I 346 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: have observed through my life. I was born in nineteen 347 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: seventy seven, largely a child of the eighties. When I 348 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: think of when my childhood was and who was president 349 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: and what I heard on the news, capitalism and democracy 350 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: have been interpreted broadly and publicly as synonymous in the 351 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: United States, I'm pretty sure they're not. What do you think? 352 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: This question is made for me now. I mean they're not. 353 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: Capitalism is a system that's based on inequality, right. Capitalism 354 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: is a system of competition, not cooperation. It's about markets, 355 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: it is about channeling greed. Right. So, um, can I 356 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: give another ancient Greek thing really quick? The word idiot 357 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: actually comes from the ancient Greek as well. Idiotis so 358 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: in ancient Athens, the worst thing could be was an idiot, 359 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: and it didn't mean that you were dumb or uneducated. 360 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: What it actually meant was that you were a private person. 361 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: You're only concerned with yourself, and the worst thing you 362 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: can be in Athens with somebody only concerned with your 363 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: private being. You're supposed to care about the community. You're 364 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be a citizen. And that's why I think 365 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: capitalism and democracy are at odds because capitalism, you know, 366 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: it encourages us to think in this atomized way, and 367 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: to think about our personal gain, to see ourselves as 368 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: in competition with other people, as opposed to seeing ourselves 369 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: in a kind of cooperative relationship of mutual prosperity and betterment. 370 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: How do we take this ancient Athenian vision a step further, 371 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: evolve it and build or rebuild an economy that actually 372 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: supports the demos and the power of those people for 373 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: the many, not just the few. I mean for me. 374 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: It all comes down to organizing, right, And it's really, 375 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: actually it's really tough work thinking about the economy. Point 376 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: right in this idea of leaving the economy of the experts, 377 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: it's this idea that, you know, let the politicians make 378 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: the decisions for us, and we need to challenge that 379 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: by building power from the bottom up. Tell me a 380 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: little bit about the Biden Jubilee, which I might add 381 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: is a great name for something. I'm like, is there 382 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: a party I didn't get invited to? Like? Who doesn't 383 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: have tickets to the Biden? Jew? Believe? To tell me 384 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: about that? So I co founded a union for debtors 385 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: called the Debt Collective, And so we're fighting to cancels 386 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: all student debt right now. So it's a hundred people 387 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: saying they're not going to pay their student loans. They're 388 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: not asking for debt forgiveness, they're asking for justice for 389 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: the abolition of these loans on the grounds that nobody 390 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: should have to mortgage their future for the chance again education. Um. 391 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: And so jubilee is you know a biblical term, right, 392 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: it's this ancient term for the moment the debts are 393 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: canceled and the land is given back people. Um. Jubilee 394 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: was a word that was invoked by enslaved people. It 395 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: was the name for emancipation, right, it was going to 396 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: be jubilee. And jubilee was something that happened periodically in 397 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: the ancient world. The economy would get so out of whack, 398 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: people would be selling themselves into debt servitude and you 399 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: know ancient Babylonia, and so periodically the king would say jubilee, 400 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: wiping up the slates that have been canceled, and now 401 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: you're free, you can go back home. So there's a 402 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: long tradition of jubilees. And so what we're doing is 403 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: echoing that call and saying this one point seven trillion 404 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: dollars of student debt that is it didn't exist a 405 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: few decades ago, right, I mean college was free. I 406 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: just did the math. Actually, yesterday I found out that 407 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: a kid going to the same school as Joe Biden 408 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: did today math and justed for inflation, pays ninety dollars 409 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: more than Joe Biden did. How much did he pay 410 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: if he had paid for all women board uh intuition, 411 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: he would have paid thirty thousand for four years. He 412 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: also paid zero dollars to go to law school. So 413 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: we're just saying we need a jubilee to get us 414 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: back on parody with what you experienced. Joe Biden, that's 415 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: the Biden Jubilee one hundred. I personally would argue that 416 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: education is a democratic good and also because he has 417 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: the power to do it. Turns out that he actually 418 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: has the authority. He doesn't have to go through Congress. 419 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Congress gave the president the authority to cancel all student 420 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: debt in the sixties, So with the stroke of a pen, 421 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: Joe Biden can cancel all student debt, provide an economic 422 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: boost for all of the country. Helped close the racial 423 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: wealth gap because we know that actually black women are 424 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: the most burdened by student debt, and so we're telling 425 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: him it's the right thing to do. And so this 426 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: is one of these little examples of where I take 427 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: hope because when we first raised this issue ten years ago, 428 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: the mainstream media just like knocked us, like they were like, 429 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: these idiots think that the government's going to cancel debt, 430 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: never gonna happen. And now we have a president who 431 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: literally campaigned on it. So I'm just like, let's ask 432 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: for things that seem crazy. My mouth is hanging open, 433 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: my eyes are wide this Biden jubilee. I'm thinking about 434 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: the count of argument. I'm thinking about what incentives are 435 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: you creating. These people made decisions on their own, and 436 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: now you're perverting the marketplace to let people off the 437 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: hook for something they signed up for. That's not responsible citizenship, 438 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: that's not sound economic policy. And then I remembered, I'm 439 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: pretty sure this is true, but I'm willing to be wrong. 440 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: I think the Fed just like brought up a whole 441 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: bunch of corporate debt just like we'll take that. I 442 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: think we've been doing debt forgiveness for certain parts of 443 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: our society and certain sectors of the economy for some time. 444 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: So please address this idea, uh, that wiping away one 445 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: point seven trillion dollars a student debt is actually sound. 446 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: First off, you made me think of this meme that 447 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: was going around recently where it said things that are 448 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: classy if you're rich, and trashy if you're poor. You know, 449 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: it's speaking two languages, um, and one of them was bankruptcy. Right. 450 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, if you're rich and you declare bankruptcy, it's strategic. 451 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: It's a strategic default, you know. So you're exactly right. 452 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: May of when the coronavirus hit, the FED took an 453 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: unprecedented step of stepping in and stabilizing the corporate debt market, 454 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: which is a way of saying providing debt relief to corporations. 455 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: I remember when my mother declared bankruptcy. It was not celebrated. 456 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: She could never run for president based on that decision. 457 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: But it wasn't a savvy business. Movie was a move 458 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: of desperation, and it shifted our family's finances for quite 459 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: some time and burned some ideas into my head to 460 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: check book by hand every day, balancing every dollar. Absolutely, 461 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: and as we go back to the sixties and look 462 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: at the University of California, college was free for everyone, 463 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: community colleges, state colleges, and the flagship universities. Why did 464 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: that get rolled back? Ronald Reagan was governor. He didn't 465 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: like that they are all these protesters at Berkeley. He 466 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: didn't like the beginning of the black power movement Merritt 467 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: College campus, and he said the state shouldn't be subsidizing curiosity. 468 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: If we charge these kids, they're going to think twice 469 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: before going around with a picket sign. I'm not making 470 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: these up. These are basically quotes, right, So I think 471 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: for me as a from a democratic perspective, from a 472 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: citizen perspective, you know, there's a baseline of like, education 473 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: is a public good and we should invest in it 474 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: so much. Research shows that all of that money currently 475 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: being spent to service loans that go to the government, 476 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: the government doesn't need. This money would then be spent 477 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: in the community, so it would be spent buying things, 478 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: People would start businesses, it would create Research shows over 479 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: a million and a half jobs a year. What's it 480 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: felt like to see people try to reclaim some lost 481 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: economic power in our system, even if we don't cancel 482 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: people's deaths, just the psychological shift, like the fact that 483 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: something we're basically saying, like you don't have to be ashamed, 484 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to feel like you made a mistake. 485 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: Like that's such a burden off of people. I see 486 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: that transformation like all the time of like wow, I'm 487 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: in this boat and you all are too, So that 488 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: that is this immeasurable value. We have one debt relief 489 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: for tens of thousands of people at this point, mostly 490 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: for people who went to predatory for profit colleges. And 491 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: what they've said to us is, you know, I got 492 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: my future back. Maybe I can say for retirement, maybe 493 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: I'll be able to help my kids, you know, as 494 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: they start on their path. I mean, it's life changing. 495 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: You know, people are so underpaid in this freaking country, 496 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: and it's like you're talking about getting fifty dollars of 497 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: debt canceled. I mean, like might as well be fifty million. 498 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean, so it's amazing, um, and I wish it 499 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: for every student debtor. I wish it for every medical debtor, 500 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I think it's like, canceled the debt, man, 501 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: let people be free. Wow. Do you think we've had 502 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: a real democracy in the United States? We've never had 503 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: a true democracy. We've never had a real democracy, and 504 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: in fact, you know, if you look at the track record, 505 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: I mean when we say things like exclusions, but I 506 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: mean the level of violence and dispossession that has happened 507 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: in the name of democracy is really profound. And yet 508 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: nevertheless people have made tremendous progress. I mean, you and 509 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: I are citizens, and it's like, who am I did, 510 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: like not honor all of the work, all of the 511 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: energy and hope and like the lives lost to get 512 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: to this point where we hopefully get to carry the 513 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: ball even further. So I'm trying to get to that 514 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: duality of no, we haven't had a perfect democracy. But 515 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: I think what's cool about the word democracy is that 516 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: even the horizon I'm aiming at, like compulsory voting and 517 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: didn't debt, abolition like that, to me that that would 518 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: just be like a new beginning, right, So then the 519 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: question is like where would you go after that? There's 520 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: a lot of really tough stuff we need to figure 521 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: out together, and so I very much see democracy as 522 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: a horizon point. Let's not aspire to be founding fathers 523 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: who like put it all on paper, like write a 524 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: constitution or like we did it. You will live with 525 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: us for eternity, but let's see ourselves instead. Is perennial 526 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: midwives like trying to birth democracy and new and passing 527 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 1: that on to future generations and letting them take up 528 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: the challenge and probably make us feel a bit curmudgently. 529 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: I knew why we invited you, but now I feel it. 530 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for that. It's uh. It reminds me of 531 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: something our first guest in Season one, Valerie Corps, talks about. 532 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: She said, whether this is not the darkness of the tomb, 533 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: but the darkness of the womb. Our nation isn't dying, 534 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: but we're it's being born and maybe being born again, 535 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: and that can be a dark and painful and even 536 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: bloody process, but there's life on the other end of it. 537 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: I like the journey metaphor rather than the mission accomplished 538 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: stamp of approval um Astra, thank you so much for 539 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: spending this time with us. Thanks for having me. I 540 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. Astra reminded me that we can't talk 541 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: about democracy without talking about the money, about the system 542 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: of money and finance, which is intertwined with our definition 543 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: of democracy and which divides us. I think there's a 544 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: way for us to talk about division that is a 545 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 1: little hokey. Oh, this Republican and this Democrat don't get along. 546 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: They should have a beer together and talk about what 547 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: they have in common. There's a deeper way to access 548 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: what divides us. And I think when we start talking 549 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: about the wealth inequality in this country, how during a 550 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: pandemic the very rich got very much richer and the 551 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: very poor got very much poorer, that's getting at the 552 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: heart of the division. So when this season of How 553 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: the Citizen, we're gonna talk about the money, we're digging 554 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: into the problems an economy based on exclusion, run by 555 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: big corporations, built on the backs of the working poor, 556 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: And like we always do, we're looking at the solutions. 557 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm not an economist. I don't write economic papers. The 558 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: point of this is not too investigate economic theories. The 559 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: point of this is for us to be able to 560 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: claim and use our power for our collective benefit. And 561 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: I am convinced that we can do so much better. 562 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: I've been reading about wealth and equality forever. It's a 563 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: big problem. Where the solutions. Who's making it easy for 564 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: me not to give all my money to Jeff Bezos 565 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: and Amazon, That's who I want to talk to. I 566 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: am sure that there are people who recognize that we 567 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: would all do better if we included more people an 568 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: economic opportunity, not as charity, but as gaining from their contributions. 569 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: Where are they? And I am sure that there is 570 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: a way for people who work full time, sometimes in 571 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 1: three jobs, to make enough to show up for their 572 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: families and their communities and for all of us and 573 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: not be categorized as the working poor. I know it 574 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: because it happens in other nations. So what's happening in 575 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: the United States that we can celebrate and do more? 576 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: That's what I want to know, and that's what I 577 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: want you to help me find out. Join me, be 578 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: a part of the demos. Let's do this together. This 579 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: is how to Citizen with barretton Day m HM. Because 580 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: we see the word citizen as a verb that involves 581 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: doing things. So here's our producer Stephanie with some things 582 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: you can do to citizen in your life. Are you 583 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: in debt? Check out Astro's Union for debtors, the Debt 584 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: Collective at www dot Debt Collective dot org. Learn more 585 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: about how you can wield your collective power. That's right. 586 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: Being in debt does not make you powerless. You can 587 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,919 Speaker 1: still citizen with loans. But if you're not in debt, 588 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: well lucky you. Seriously though, you can still find strengthen numbers. 589 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: Find a week, take some time this week to reflect 590 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: on communities that you are a part of, and research 591 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: organizations you can join that are advocating for causes you 592 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: care about. And lastly, you can citizen better by pressing 593 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: a button, the one that says subscribe or follow. We're 594 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: not being vain. Keeping up with the podcast is the 595 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: best way for you to keep up with our incredible 596 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: guests and all the ways you can citizen better. So 597 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: buckle up. It's going to be a great season and 598 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot more ways that you can 599 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: get involved if you take any of these actions. First 600 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: of all, thank you, Thank you so very much. Now 601 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: make sure to brag about yourself online. Use the hashtag 602 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: how to citizen to encourage others to do the same. 603 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: You can send us general or very specific feedback directly 604 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: two comments at how to citizen dot com and just 605 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: remember the website how to citizen dot com. Check it out. 606 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: You can sign up for newsletter updates, text updates, find 607 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: out about upcoming guests and upcoming ways to citizen more. 608 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please help us spread the word. 609 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: Share own social media, share at at dinner party. If 610 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: you've all been vaccinated, put it in your weekly newsletter, 611 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: because everybody seems to have one of those. Thank you. 612 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: How to Citizen with barrettun Day is a production of 613 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio Podcasts and dust Light Productions. Our executive 614 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: producers are Me, barrettun Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusuf. 615 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: Our producers are Stephanie Cone and Ali Kilts. Kelly Prime 616 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our engineer, and Sam 617 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: Paulson is our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen. This 618 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: episode was produced and sound designed by Stephanie Cone. Special 619 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: thanks to Joel Smith from I Heart Matter