WEBVTT - How We Got Here 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:09.320 Glass. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.840 When I was in graduate school, I was trying to 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.800 nail down a topic for my doctoral dissertation. At the 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.000 same time, I had picked up endurance running as a hobby, 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.600 and I went for a run with a men's team 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.040 that I had known for about five minutes at this point, 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:31.440 and one of these guys, like a mile like ten 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.320 or something, handed me this gel and just said, oh, yeah, 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.160 you should, you should take this. It'll make you it'll 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.040 make you feel better. And I did, like total candy 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.239 from a stranger mistake, and you know, within like a 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.000 couple of miles, I think I was like on the 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:49.720 side of the road, like regurgitating the gel. Afterwards, I 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:51.800 was sort of reflecting on like, God, that was horrible, 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:53.840 Like why on earth would I have taken something that 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.080 some random person just handed me? And it got me 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.280 thinking about, you know, what do runners, amateur athletes, competitive 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:05.800 athletes understand about performance enhancement and substance use and the 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.120 policies around it. And that sort of led me to 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.840 my first study for my doctorate, looking at competitive runners 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.640 in New York City and what they knew and understood 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.759 about antidoping policy and how that impacted their choices. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.759 From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. I'm Chris Guymali. This is superhuman. 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.800 If you've been following this series, you know, the Enhanced 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.680 Games raises a question that sounds simple but turns out 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.200 to be anything but what exactly is wrong with doping? 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.440 To answer that, you need to understand how we got here, 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.960 how a set of rules built around Victorian ideas of 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.400 amateurism became the global anti doping system we have today. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.119 When we were researching, one name kept coming up as 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.720 the person to talk to about the history of doping, 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.440 someone who has spent her career studying exactly that, doctor 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.280 April Henning, a professor at Harriet Watt University in Edinburgh. 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.720 April walked me through a pretty fascinating and pretty surprising narrative, 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.000 starting with the first modern Olympics to how we got 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.720 to where we are today, somewhere between the strict but 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.600 perhaps more often than not failing rules of the World 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:17.040 Anti Doping Agency and the Enhance Games. This is going 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.280 to sound like a big, all encompassing historical question, but 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.359 you know, going back to antiquity, how long have athletes 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.720 been doping for and what did it look like back then? 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.200 So that is a great, big question. So what we 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.480 know is that going back and everyone always starts with 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.560 the original Greek Olympics and these things, and we do 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:41.840 know that there is some evidence that they were using 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.959 all sorts of things to enhance their performance. It was 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.520 quite rudimentary at the time, but they were various forms 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:53.000 of you know, mushroom or types of animal products that 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.679 they were ingesting to, you know, try to improve their performance. 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.280 So it does go back into antiquity. From there it 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.720 sort of falls off. So the sort of competitive sport, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.679 as we understand that is really a fairly modern development. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.120 So it wasn't really until the end of the eighteen 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.720 hundreds where we were seeing the development of sort of 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:16.240 modern competitive sport and then the rise of doping for 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.919 sport purposes. So before that, it was doping, but nobody 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.280 called it doping. It's doping is one of these concepts 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.600 that it's really defined by the policy against it rather 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.200 than it being a practice. So we tend to talk 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.480 about doping in sport, but outside of that, we say 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.359 performance enhancing drugs or performance hancing substances or things like that. 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.880 At the initial Olympic Games, what we know is that 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:42.760 athletes were indeed using performance enhancing substances. What happened there 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.880 is that we actually had the sort of very first 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.440 rule against doping was at the Olympics, and it was 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.800 specifically for the marathon, which of course was only men 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.080 able to run this event. And this stated, you know, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.560 quite specifically that they weren't allowed to use anything to 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.400 enhance their performance. And then there was no testing for this, 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.200 so it was just a rule that wasn't really going 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.000 to be enforced very well. So at that Olympics, what 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.360 we saw was the winner, the eventual winner, was helped 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.320 along to the finish line by a hefty dose of 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.720 stryp nine and brandy, both of which at the time 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.760 were thought to be performance enhancing. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.640 What is the alleged benefit of using strip nine as 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:25.240 an athlete. 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.920 Yeah, so basically it was believed to have stimulating properties 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.680 that it would, you know, sort of increase your energy. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:34.599 That was the perceived benefit of it. 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.159 And what about brandy in this context. 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.160 So this was I'm not completely clear on the brandy. 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:43.840 There's a bit there's a bit of a conflict because 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.000 it's a this is a downer. We wouldn't think that 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.679 that alcohol. But if you think back, you know, brandy 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.800 was sort of used as one of these curatives, so 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.400 you know, if you're if you're feeling faint, they give 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.800 you a brandy to wake you up. So sort of 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.240 the belief around that having some stimulating properties, which now, 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.320 of course we know, you know you shouldn't take strict 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.440 nine brandy isn't gonna make you more alert. But I 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.560 think part of it was there was just no concept 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.080 of the sort of dehydrating effects of alcohol and particularly 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.120 mixed with poison. So that was sort of the sort 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.719 of our first known or first recognized modern instance of doping, 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:19.920 particularly at something like the Olympics. 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.400 M And as I understand it, that marathon was sort 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.120 of a mess, right, It was unusually hot and you 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.440 were only allowed to drink water at one place. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.080 So the sort of heat and the lack of water, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.440 this is a recurring theme in endurance sport and in dopeing. 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.920 We didn't understand hydration the way that we understand now. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:38.880 We didn't understand nutrition. You know, if you look at 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.719 modern marathoning or modern endurance sport, there's a table every 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.080 couple kilometers or every mile with water with electrolytes. Everyone 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.000 carries their little gels. We understand that part of it better. 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.119 At that point, there was I think only one stop 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.280 on the course where you know, hydration was available. And 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.560 it's a hot day, right, It's a summer Olympics, it's 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.279 in Europe, it's going to be hot. So this sort 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.520 of push this idea that maybe we need a boost, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.680 you know, like this is you know, sort of how 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.159 we get people to finish. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.440 From this moment, there's this sort of delineation between what 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.760 sort of is seen as a you know, accepted enhancement 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.080 and what is a little bit more on the verboat inside. 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.640 What sort of early themes start emerging from this moment 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.640 of the marathon are finishing the race and him having 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.359 this stuff in the system versus hydration and water, and 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.919 like why is that acceptable versus the other stuff that 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:28.480 he was using. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.120 Yeah, so this is this is a bit of a 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.880 philosophical question that lots of us have wrestled with. So 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.960 if we think about things like what the Olympics was 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.800 at this point, the sort of first modern Olympic Games. 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.360 Amateurism was the name of the game. So actually training 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.880 itself was a revolutionary technology. This was performance enhancing because 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.719 lots of these people. They were gentlemen, they were not 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.880 working class, they were privileged, and the idea was that 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.479 you just turn up and do these things. Now. Of course, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.039 at the same time there were professionalized sports where people 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.960 did make money from them, and this sort of amateurism 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.320 is the thing that delineated the where substance use was permitted. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.400 So the professionals, there's a great paper by my colleague 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.600 ask Best Christiansen. The title of it is something like, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.440 we're not sportsmen, we're professionals. And the idea is that 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.240 they're professionals, they're not amateurs, they're not just in this 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.640 for the sort of love of the sport, and so 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.880 that sort of emboldened them, or they felt enabled them 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.040 to go ahead and use some things that wouldn't have 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.280 been allowed under sort of the Olympic values. When we're 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.800 talking about doping or performance enhancement, what we're talking about 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:39.720 is moving beyond that baseline where it accepted food, water, hydration, nutrition. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.080 We're actually moving beyond that and we're looking for sort 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.720 of a boost that takes us out of that sort 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.160 of normative territory. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.960 In terms of competition and using something enhancing for an athlete. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.640 It seems like there's this real idea here about class. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.360 Can you talk a little bit about this class element 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.080 to it and where it comes from in terms of doping. 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.680 Yeah, So, sport, and particularly what was then sort of 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:14.200 elite Olympic sport, was really the sort of province of 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.480 the gentleman class. If you sort of look at the 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.520 people who organize the first few iterations of the modern Olympics, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.480 they've all got titles like Sir, Prince Duke. You know, 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.960 these aren't working class heroes as we like to think 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.640 of modern day Olympians. So the idea was that if 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.280 you're an amateur, you're competing in a sport simply for 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.559 the love of it, that it's about pure competition, it's 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.560 about sort of seeing what the body can do. Whereas 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.640 once we move into sort of professionalized sport, the idea 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.120 is no longer about these ideas. And again these are 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.440 sort of ideas constructions of what pure sport. And I 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.040 really don't like these terms because they have no meaning. Really, 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.920 this balance between it's no longer pure sport. This is 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.040 sport for a competitive outcome. This is to win, this 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.920 is to earn money, this is to do something besides 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.400 just enjoy the competition or to put on a show 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.280 something like that. So that's really where that tension comes in. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:16.120 And this sort of idea that one would engage in 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.719 sport for pay was very much looked down upon by 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.280 this gentleman class. But if you're a working class individual 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.480 who wants to compete in sport, you're either doing this 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.160 at the same time that you're trying to earn a living, 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.520 which reduces your ability your chance. And it was all 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.880 self funded at this point, so all of the travel 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.360 to the games, all of the training, so this excluded 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.319 a whole segment of socioeconomic classes that were just never 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.360 going to be able to do this. So that's part 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.640 of that sort of traditional divide where we really saw 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.280 this as being something for the gentleman, and then this 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.520 other stuff was maybe for the working classes if they 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.480 wanted to enter or compete for money, but that was 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.160 not meant to be part of the Olympics. Initially, the 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.680 design of the original modern Olympics was that these were 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:01.800 meant to be an amateur thing, and that this amateur 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.440 ethos would carry through and this was what we're going 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.559 to build our values around, and that was really the 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.800 underpinning for the very first antidoping rules within the Olympic movement. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.400 I wanted to jump to the nineteen sixty Romalympics and 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.160 that cycling race, which was such a pivotal moment in 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:17.800 the history of all of this. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:22.080 Yeah, so the nineteen sixty Games were actually quite pivotal 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.800 in the sort of development of antidoping and the push 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.480 for the IOC to take this seriously and to actually 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.160 do something. So what happened at the nineteen sixty Games, 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.520 so this is the Rome Olympics, is that we have 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.560 a summer Games in Rome, and Rome is hot in 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:44.960 the summer. So we have a cycling race, and we 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.560 have the Danish cycling team is competing and one of 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.120 their cyclists is the twenty one year old nude Anamark Jensen, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.560 and Jensen is competing in the heat of the day, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:01.360 so afternoon it's four degree celsius one hundred and five 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:08.280 degrees fahrenheit and with inadequate hydration, inadequate fueling the way 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:13.080 that we would consider it now, and tragically Jensen dies 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.640 in the course of this race. Now, when he comes 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.439 off his bike, he's attended to by the medical personnel 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.800 they bring him into the medical tent to try to 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.480 revive him, to try to give him medical attention, and 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:31.240 unfortunately the medical tent was even hotter than the afternoon 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.360 air in Rome, so this was probably close to fifty 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.640 degrees cel state, so one hundred and ten plus degrees fahrenheit, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.480 which actually just exacerbated things and likely made things worse. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.080 They were unable to revive Jensen, so he did end 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.080 up dying, and in the wake of this, his national 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.000 team coach was interviewed about what happened in this race, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.560 and he mentions that his team had been given this 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.800 drug called Ryanical, which is a vasodilator, which was intended 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.320 to help enhance their performance. This was actually picked up 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:07.679 by the media and misrepresented as being an amphetamine, and 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.560 once this made it into the media, even though it 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:15.760 was incorrect, the IOC and others, who were already predisposed 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.320 against the use of performance enhancing substances and sport took 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.280 this and ran with it. So this linking of Jensen's 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.400 death with amphetamines led this push to we must do something. 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.800 We must do something to address the issue of particularly 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.880 amphetamine use in sport, but also just doping in general. 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.480 So What this ended up turning into was the development 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.680 and the establishment of the IOC's Medical Commission in nineteen 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.680 sixty seven, which was tasked with coming up with a 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.960 set of rules around performance enhancing drugs and doping. Now, 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.720 the interesting bit of this is that because this was 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:02.440 all based on a mistake Jensen, it wasn't revealed until 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.160 the two thousands when the Danish media did a deeper 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.080 dive into what actually caused Jensen's death, where they looked 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.600 at the autopsy report and found that actually Jensen didn't 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.000 have amphetamines in his body, so his death wasn't actually 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.280 caused by any drug. It was likely caused by the 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.760 conditions of the day, inadequate hydration, poor fueling, and just 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.600 bad luck. But this one mistake was enough to change 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.000 the course of sporting and antidoping history in that the 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:36.280 IOC appoints this Medical Commission that laid out the framework 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:41.719 for antidoping that we still see today under the advisement 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.640 of the World Antidoping Agency. So this whole approach that 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.200 was laid out in nineteen sixty seven as a result 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.800 of cases like Jensen's is actually the system, basically the 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:53.360 framework for the system that we. 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.679 Still have when we talk about sort of like you know, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.880 testosterone and steroid use, can you talk about the first 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.840 and since that that sort of came prevalent in this sport. 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.240 Oh, so this is really unclear and there is some 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:11.000 disagreement about where the development of synthetic testosterone really came from. 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.319 What we do know is that it was during the 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.920 nineteen fifties and that the sort of alleged story that 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.240 is again controversial, was that there was a weightlifting coach 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.360 who was visiting the Soviet Union and noticed that the 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.080 athletes there were using a sort of synthesized testosterone that 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.040 to improve their strength, and decided that he was going 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:32.560 to bring this back to America and we were going 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.920 to try this. And when that happened, it started within 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.360 the weightlifting and particularly the bodybuilding communities. And it's generally 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.440 associated with the West coast of the US California, Venice Beach, 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:43.960 specifically Muscle Beach. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.280 Muscle Beach, where we're thirty dollars a year or three 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.000 dollars a day you can join a club and look 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.480 like this. Maku Beach is the only gym of its 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:54.400 kind in the world. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.400 The being better California Mack will. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.920 Be all the great have worked out here, mister t 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:03.760 Arnold Hulk Hogan. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.640 And this was right at the time that we saw 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.600 the sort of shift in what male bodies looked like. 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.760 And as we progress through the nineteen sixties, when this 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.080 really started being used into the seventies and eighties, we 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.640 see the rise of bodies like that of you know, 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.400 the most famous bodybuilder of all, which is Arnold Schwarzeneger. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.680 I mean, you come down here the muscle beach and 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.720 the Venice Peach platform, and you train first that many 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.400 decades like I have, and pumped up the body and 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.600 got tanned, and win the championships and eventually build a 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.160 building to have you on the building a picture of 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:42.000 my winning pose. And that's right here, paw. How about that? 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.440 Huh? His body is still often held up as sort 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:52.240 of the perfect symmetrical male bodybuilder. Once these things start 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.440 being used, even in these sort of fringes, but it 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.360 becomes clear that they are effective, they make their way 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.080 into sport. And frankly, when these first started being introduced 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.480 into sport, there weren't explicit rules against them, and there 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.480 was no test, There was no mechanism for regulating these 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.040 or for catching anyone. So you know, amphetamines in some 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.400 ways made a lot of sense for antidoping because developing 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.480 a test for an amphetamine is pretty straightforward. Developing a 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.520 test for an animalic steroid was much more difficult, partly 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.320 because there's different ways of synthesizing them, there's different ways 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.480 of testing for them, there's different ways of using them, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.800 and how sensitive tests could be at that point to 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.800 actually detect steroid use. So this it actually took quite 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.600 a bit of time after these became used in sport, 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.160 before antidoping was able to develop any form of useful 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:42.520 test for steroids. 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.800 Going to the sixties, specifically, I was struck in reading 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:52.000 around how elaborate some of these, like national doping programs were, specifically, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:53.840 like the East German one. I'm wondering if you could 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:55.760 talk a little bit about that program and how it 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.640 fits into the enforcement issue. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:04.240 So these German program was extensive, it included a huge 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.520 number of athletes, tens of thousands of athletes, and it 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:12.240 was effective. So at the time East Germany began a 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:17.160 program of doping athletes, and these included athletes that were 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.760 considered developmental athletes, so those that were on their way 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:25.040 to becoming international level. So this was directed by the States, 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.520 so this was state sponsored doping, but they determined that 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:34.160 athletes were going to be given anabolic steroids as well 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.359 as a list of other things to enhance their sporting performance. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.200 Now the issue, there are many issues with what happened 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.280 in East Germany. One is around the issue of knowledge 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.640 and consent of the athletes that were included. So there 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:55.800 appears to be a range of consent that and understanding 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.960 amongst the athletes themselves. Some of them knew what was 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.520 happening and went along with it. Some of them did 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.120 not know what they were being given. You know, there 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:09.920 are reports that have come out and some of the 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.359 victims themselves have actually spoken out, become academics themselves written 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.399 about this, but that some of them became aware that 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.640 they were getting something that wasn't just a vitamin when 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:27.000 they started developing. Side of hets so clear, you know, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.679 sort of what we would think of our human rights violations, 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.879 you know, drugging people without consent. The other part of 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:40.640 it was the sort of shocking effectiveness of this regime. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.680 So East Germany really punched above their weight in terms 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.440 of their metal hole. So East Germany was actually quite 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.400 a small country, not very populous. It wouldn't have been 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:56.359 predicted to be on par with countries like the US 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.800 with the Soviet Union, with its West German counterpart, it 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:05.359 would often we understand that population size and economic strength 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.120 actually are great predictors of how will you do at 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:12.840 international sporting competitions, and they were doing extremely well. So 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.199 this did raise red flags as well as some of 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.840 the appearances of many of the athletes, in particularly the 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:20.640 women athletes. 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.240 Oh yeah, side effects, Yeah, what kind of things were 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:24.639 we seeing? 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.880 So the women themselves when they would turn up at competitions, 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.040 there were often comments and comments that would be picked 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.040 up by the media from spectators from other athletes about 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.560 how masculine it looked, so large muscles, what they perceived 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.960 to be very square jaws, just basically having sort of 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.560 what we'd understand to be sort of a masculine look 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.560 to them. Now, the actual side effects that these women 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:51.280 were experiencing are what we still see in women who 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.120 use anabolic steroids, So things like a deep in voice, 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.520 growth of facial and other body hair, the sort of 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.240 enlarged clitorous acne, all of the sort of effects on 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:05.560 sort of their secondary sex characteristics. There are masculinizing effects 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.400 to using these substances, particularly in the types of doses 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.560 that some of these women were getting. You know, the 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.080 East German government wasn't giving them small doses. They were 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.520 giving them the highest doses they could get away with. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.600 Within the men, it's a little less obvious because generally speaking, 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.240 they were using synthetic testosterone to get these effects, and 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.439 in men it sort of amplified the things that we 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.199 already think of as being masculine in men. So it 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.280 made their muscles bigger, maybe made their voices deeper, may 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.960 have increased facial hair, acne, all of the same things. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.960 It can also lead to some side effects, and these 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.520 are just general side effects of using and Buxeris can 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.560 lead to genocamastia, which is the sort of growth and 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.840 breast tissue in men, can lead to impacts on testicular size. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.800 So all of these things were occurring in the men. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.679 It was just a bit more difficult to see it 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.280 so clearly within the men than it was within the women. 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.240 After the break nineteen eighty eight Summer Olympics doping scandal 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:11.520 that changed everything, I wanted to ask you about like, okay, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.000 after the Shermans, you know, the Olympics start testing athletes. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.040 Do you remember which games these were specifically? 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.560 So, the first test for antaalox steroids was actually developed 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.399 in the mid nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy four, seventy four. 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.400 What games would that have been? Seventy six, seventy eight. 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.600 And this meant that the International Olympic Committee, amongst others, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.399 could formally prohibit these. So they had been on the 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:38.000 list of things that you weren't supposed to do, but 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.360 without an enforcement mechanism, there wasn't a lot that could 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.560 be done apart from catching somebody in the act of 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:48.200 using them. And you know, the first tests were fairly rudimentary. 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.880 They basically could say whether or not there was the 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.800 presence of a metabolite. So when these were ruled out, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.159 this meant that those who were using these had to 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.280 change their oh to avoid getting caught. So in a 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.080 country like East Germany, what this meant was that they 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.919 started pre testing their athletes before they sent them to 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.640 competitions to ensure that they wouldn't flag a dope. Big test. Now, 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:16.400 this also meant that the science of how quickly substances cleared, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.520 the body progressed rapidly. They had a fairly good idea 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.359 about how long it would take for the sort of 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.960 metabolites to become undetectable based on the current testing, because 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.320 they were subjecting their athletes to testing ahead of time. Now, 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.320 this led in some cases to being at competitions where 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:38.119 we would sometimes see athletes drop out of events on 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.360 short notice or with no notice. They just wouldn't turn 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.040 up for an event if they it was sort of 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.919