1 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Glass. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: When I was in graduate school, I was trying to 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: nail down a topic for my doctoral dissertation. At the 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: same time, I had picked up endurance running as a hobby, 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 2: and I went for a run with a men's team 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: that I had known for about five minutes at this point, 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: and one of these guys, like a mile like ten 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: or something, handed me this gel and just said, oh, yeah, 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 2: you should, you should take this. It'll make you it'll 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: make you feel better. And I did, like total candy 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 2: from a stranger mistake, and you know, within like a 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: couple of miles, I think I was like on the 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: side of the road, like regurgitating the gel. Afterwards, I 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: was sort of reflecting on like, God, that was horrible, 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: Like why on earth would I have taken something that 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: some random person just handed me? And it got me 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: thinking about, you know, what do runners, amateur athletes, competitive 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: athletes understand about performance enhancement and substance use and the 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: policies around it. And that sort of led me to 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: my first study for my doctorate, looking at competitive runners 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: in New York City and what they knew and understood 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 2: about antidoping policy and how that impacted their choices. 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. I'm Chris Guymali. This is superhuman. 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: If you've been following this series, you know, the Enhanced 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Games raises a question that sounds simple but turns out 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: to be anything but what exactly is wrong with doping? 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: To answer that, you need to understand how we got here, 28 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: how a set of rules built around Victorian ideas of 29 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: amateurism became the global anti doping system we have today. 30 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: When we were researching, one name kept coming up as 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: the person to talk to about the history of doping, 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: someone who has spent her career studying exactly that, doctor 33 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: April Henning, a professor at Harriet Watt University in Edinburgh. 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: April walked me through a pretty fascinating and pretty surprising narrative, 35 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: starting with the first modern Olympics to how we got 36 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: to where we are today, somewhere between the strict but 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: perhaps more often than not failing rules of the World 38 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Anti Doping Agency and the Enhance Games. This is going 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: to sound like a big, all encompassing historical question, but 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: you know, going back to antiquity, how long have athletes 41 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: been doping for and what did it look like back then? 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: So that is a great, big question. So what we 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: know is that going back and everyone always starts with 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: the original Greek Olympics and these things, and we do 45 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: know that there is some evidence that they were using 46 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: all sorts of things to enhance their performance. It was 47 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: quite rudimentary at the time, but they were various forms 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: of you know, mushroom or types of animal products that 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 2: they were ingesting to, you know, try to improve their performance. 50 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: So it does go back into antiquity. From there it 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: sort of falls off. So the sort of competitive sport, 52 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 2: as we understand that is really a fairly modern development. 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: So it wasn't really until the end of the eighteen 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: hundreds where we were seeing the development of sort of 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: modern competitive sport and then the rise of doping for 56 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: sport purposes. So before that, it was doping, but nobody 57 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: called it doping. It's doping is one of these concepts 58 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: that it's really defined by the policy against it rather 59 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: than it being a practice. So we tend to talk 60 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: about doping in sport, but outside of that, we say 61 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 2: performance enhancing drugs or performance hancing substances or things like that. 62 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: At the initial Olympic Games, what we know is that 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: athletes were indeed using performance enhancing substances. What happened there 64 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: is that we actually had the sort of very first 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: rule against doping was at the Olympics, and it was 66 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: specifically for the marathon, which of course was only men 67 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: able to run this event. And this stated, you know, 68 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: quite specifically that they weren't allowed to use anything to 69 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: enhance their performance. And then there was no testing for this, 70 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: so it was just a rule that wasn't really going 71 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: to be enforced very well. So at that Olympics, what 72 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: we saw was the winner, the eventual winner, was helped 73 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: along to the finish line by a hefty dose of 74 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: stryp nine and brandy, both of which at the time 75 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: were thought to be performance enhancing. 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: What is the alleged benefit of using strip nine as 77 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: an athlete. 78 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so basically it was believed to have stimulating properties 79 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: that it would, you know, sort of increase your energy. 80 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 2: That was the perceived benefit of it. 81 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: And what about brandy in this context. 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: So this was I'm not completely clear on the brandy. 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: There's a bit there's a bit of a conflict because 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: it's a this is a downer. We wouldn't think that 85 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 2: that alcohol. But if you think back, you know, brandy 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: was sort of used as one of these curatives, so 87 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: you know, if you're if you're feeling faint, they give 88 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: you a brandy to wake you up. So sort of 89 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: the belief around that having some stimulating properties, which now, 90 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: of course we know, you know you shouldn't take strict 91 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: nine brandy isn't gonna make you more alert. But I 92 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: think part of it was there was just no concept 93 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: of the sort of dehydrating effects of alcohol and particularly 94 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: mixed with poison. So that was sort of the sort 95 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: of our first known or first recognized modern instance of doping, 96 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: particularly at something like the Olympics. 97 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: M And as I understand it, that marathon was sort 98 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: of a mess, right, It was unusually hot and you 99 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: were only allowed to drink water at one place. 100 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: So the sort of heat and the lack of water, 101 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: this is a recurring theme in endurance sport and in dopeing. 102 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: We didn't understand hydration the way that we understand now. 103 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: We didn't understand nutrition. You know, if you look at 104 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: modern marathoning or modern endurance sport, there's a table every 105 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: couple kilometers or every mile with water with electrolytes. Everyone 106 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: carries their little gels. We understand that part of it better. 107 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,119 Speaker 2: At that point, there was I think only one stop 108 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: on the course where you know, hydration was available. And 109 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: it's a hot day, right, It's a summer Olympics, it's 110 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: in Europe, it's going to be hot. So this sort 111 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: of push this idea that maybe we need a boost, 112 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: you know, like this is you know, sort of how 113 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 2: we get people to finish. 114 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: From this moment, there's this sort of delineation between what 115 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: sort of is seen as a you know, accepted enhancement 116 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: and what is a little bit more on the verboat inside. 117 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: What sort of early themes start emerging from this moment 118 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: of the marathon are finishing the race and him having 119 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: this stuff in the system versus hydration and water, and 120 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: like why is that acceptable versus the other stuff that 121 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: he was using. 122 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is this is a bit of a 123 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: philosophical question that lots of us have wrestled with. So 124 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: if we think about things like what the Olympics was 125 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: at this point, the sort of first modern Olympic Games. 126 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: Amateurism was the name of the game. So actually training 127 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: itself was a revolutionary technology. This was performance enhancing because 128 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: lots of these people. They were gentlemen, they were not 129 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: working class, they were privileged, and the idea was that 130 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: you just turn up and do these things. Now. Of course, 131 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: at the same time there were professionalized sports where people 132 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: did make money from them, and this sort of amateurism 133 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: is the thing that delineated the where substance use was permitted. 134 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: So the professionals, there's a great paper by my colleague 135 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: ask Best Christiansen. The title of it is something like, 136 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: we're not sportsmen, we're professionals. And the idea is that 137 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: they're professionals, they're not amateurs, they're not just in this 138 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: for the sort of love of the sport, and so 139 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: that sort of emboldened them, or they felt enabled them 140 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: to go ahead and use some things that wouldn't have 141 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: been allowed under sort of the Olympic values. When we're 142 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: talking about doping or performance enhancement, what we're talking about 143 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: is moving beyond that baseline where it accepted food, water, hydration, nutrition. 144 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: We're actually moving beyond that and we're looking for sort 145 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: of a boost that takes us out of that sort 146 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: of normative territory. 147 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: In terms of competition and using something enhancing for an athlete. 148 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: It seems like there's this real idea here about class. 149 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about this class element 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: to it and where it comes from in terms of doping. 151 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, sport, and particularly what was then sort of 152 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: elite Olympic sport, was really the sort of province of 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: the gentleman class. If you sort of look at the 154 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: people who organize the first few iterations of the modern Olympics, 155 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: they've all got titles like Sir, Prince Duke. You know, 156 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: these aren't working class heroes as we like to think 157 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: of modern day Olympians. So the idea was that if 158 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: you're an amateur, you're competing in a sport simply for 159 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 2: the love of it, that it's about pure competition, it's 160 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: about sort of seeing what the body can do. Whereas 161 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: once we move into sort of professionalized sport, the idea 162 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: is no longer about these ideas. And again these are 163 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: sort of ideas constructions of what pure sport. And I 164 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: really don't like these terms because they have no meaning. Really, 165 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: this balance between it's no longer pure sport. This is 166 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: sport for a competitive outcome. This is to win, this 167 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: is to earn money, this is to do something besides 168 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: just enjoy the competition or to put on a show 169 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: something like that. So that's really where that tension comes in. 170 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: And this sort of idea that one would engage in 171 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 2: sport for pay was very much looked down upon by 172 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: this gentleman class. But if you're a working class individual 173 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: who wants to compete in sport, you're either doing this 174 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: at the same time that you're trying to earn a living, 175 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: which reduces your ability your chance. And it was all 176 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: self funded at this point, so all of the travel 177 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: to the games, all of the training, so this excluded 178 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: a whole segment of socioeconomic classes that were just never 179 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: going to be able to do this. So that's part 180 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: of that sort of traditional divide where we really saw 181 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: this as being something for the gentleman, and then this 182 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: other stuff was maybe for the working classes if they 183 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: wanted to enter or compete for money, but that was 184 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: not meant to be part of the Olympics. Initially, the 185 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: design of the original modern Olympics was that these were 186 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: meant to be an amateur thing, and that this amateur 187 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: ethos would carry through and this was what we're going 188 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: to build our values around, and that was really the 189 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: underpinning for the very first antidoping rules within the Olympic movement. 190 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to jump to the nineteen sixty Romalympics and 191 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: that cycling race, which was such a pivotal moment in 192 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: the history of all of this. 193 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the nineteen sixty Games were actually quite pivotal 194 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: in the sort of development of antidoping and the push 195 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: for the IOC to take this seriously and to actually 196 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: do something. So what happened at the nineteen sixty Games, 197 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: so this is the Rome Olympics, is that we have 198 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: a summer Games in Rome, and Rome is hot in 199 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: the summer. So we have a cycling race, and we 200 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: have the Danish cycling team is competing and one of 201 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: their cyclists is the twenty one year old nude Anamark Jensen, 202 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: and Jensen is competing in the heat of the day, 203 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: so afternoon it's four degree celsius one hundred and five 204 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: degrees fahrenheit and with inadequate hydration, inadequate fueling the way 205 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: that we would consider it now, and tragically Jensen dies 206 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: in the course of this race. Now, when he comes 207 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 2: off his bike, he's attended to by the medical personnel 208 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: they bring him into the medical tent to try to 209 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: revive him, to try to give him medical attention, and 210 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: unfortunately the medical tent was even hotter than the afternoon 211 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: air in Rome, so this was probably close to fifty 212 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: degrees cel state, so one hundred and ten plus degrees fahrenheit, 213 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: which actually just exacerbated things and likely made things worse. 214 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 2: They were unable to revive Jensen, so he did end 215 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: up dying, and in the wake of this, his national 216 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: team coach was interviewed about what happened in this race, 217 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: and he mentions that his team had been given this 218 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: drug called Ryanical, which is a vasodilator, which was intended 219 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: to help enhance their performance. This was actually picked up 220 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: by the media and misrepresented as being an amphetamine, and 221 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: once this made it into the media, even though it 222 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: was incorrect, the IOC and others, who were already predisposed 223 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: against the use of performance enhancing substances and sport took 224 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: this and ran with it. So this linking of Jensen's 225 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 2: death with amphetamines led this push to we must do something. 226 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: We must do something to address the issue of particularly 227 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: amphetamine use in sport, but also just doping in general. 228 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: So What this ended up turning into was the development 229 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: and the establishment of the IOC's Medical Commission in nineteen 230 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 2: sixty seven, which was tasked with coming up with a 231 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: set of rules around performance enhancing drugs and doping. Now, 232 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: the interesting bit of this is that because this was 233 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: all based on a mistake Jensen, it wasn't revealed until 234 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: the two thousands when the Danish media did a deeper 235 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: dive into what actually caused Jensen's death, where they looked 236 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: at the autopsy report and found that actually Jensen didn't 237 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: have amphetamines in his body, so his death wasn't actually 238 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: caused by any drug. It was likely caused by the 239 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: conditions of the day, inadequate hydration, poor fueling, and just 240 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: bad luck. But this one mistake was enough to change 241 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: the course of sporting and antidoping history in that the 242 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: IOC appoints this Medical Commission that laid out the framework 243 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 2: for antidoping that we still see today under the advisement 244 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: of the World Antidoping Agency. So this whole approach that 245 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: was laid out in nineteen sixty seven as a result 246 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: of cases like Jensen's is actually the system, basically the 247 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: framework for the system that we. 248 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: Still have when we talk about sort of like you know, 249 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: testosterone and steroid use, can you talk about the first 250 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: and since that that sort of came prevalent in this sport. 251 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: Oh, so this is really unclear and there is some 252 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: disagreement about where the development of synthetic testosterone really came from. 253 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: What we do know is that it was during the 254 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties and that the sort of alleged story that 255 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: is again controversial, was that there was a weightlifting coach 256 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: who was visiting the Soviet Union and noticed that the 257 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: athletes there were using a sort of synthesized testosterone that 258 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: to improve their strength, and decided that he was going 259 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: to bring this back to America and we were going 260 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: to try this. And when that happened, it started within 261 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: the weightlifting and particularly the bodybuilding communities. And it's generally 262 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: associated with the West coast of the US California, Venice Beach, 263 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: specifically Muscle Beach. 264 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: Muscle Beach, where we're thirty dollars a year or three 265 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: dollars a day you can join a club and look 266 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 3: like this. Maku Beach is the only gym of its 267 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: kind in the world. 268 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: The being better California Mack will. 269 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 3: Be all the great have worked out here, mister t 270 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 3: Arnold Hulk Hogan. 271 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: And this was right at the time that we saw 272 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: the sort of shift in what male bodies looked like. 273 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: And as we progress through the nineteen sixties, when this 274 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: really started being used into the seventies and eighties, we 275 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: see the rise of bodies like that of you know, 276 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: the most famous bodybuilder of all, which is Arnold Schwarzeneger. 277 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: I mean, you come down here the muscle beach and 278 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 4: the Venice Peach platform, and you train first that many 279 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 4: decades like I have, and pumped up the body and 280 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 4: got tanned, and win the championships and eventually build a 281 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 4: building to have you on the building a picture of 282 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 4: my winning pose. And that's right here, paw. How about that? 283 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: Huh? His body is still often held up as sort 284 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: of the perfect symmetrical male bodybuilder. Once these things start 285 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: being used, even in these sort of fringes, but it 286 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: becomes clear that they are effective, they make their way 287 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: into sport. And frankly, when these first started being introduced 288 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: into sport, there weren't explicit rules against them, and there 289 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: was no test, There was no mechanism for regulating these 290 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: or for catching anyone. So you know, amphetamines in some 291 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: ways made a lot of sense for antidoping because developing 292 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: a test for an amphetamine is pretty straightforward. Developing a 293 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: test for an animalic steroid was much more difficult, partly 294 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: because there's different ways of synthesizing them, there's different ways 295 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: of testing for them, there's different ways of using them, 296 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: and how sensitive tests could be at that point to 297 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: actually detect steroid use. So this it actually took quite 298 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: a bit of time after these became used in sport, 299 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: before antidoping was able to develop any form of useful 300 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: test for steroids. 301 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: Going to the sixties, specifically, I was struck in reading 302 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: around how elaborate some of these, like national doping programs were, specifically, 303 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: like the East German one. I'm wondering if you could 304 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that program and how it 305 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: fits into the enforcement issue. 306 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: So these German program was extensive, it included a huge 307 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: number of athletes, tens of thousands of athletes, and it 308 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: was effective. So at the time East Germany began a 309 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: program of doping athletes, and these included athletes that were 310 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: considered developmental athletes, so those that were on their way 311 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: to becoming international level. So this was directed by the States, 312 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: so this was state sponsored doping, but they determined that 313 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 2: athletes were going to be given anabolic steroids as well 314 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: as a list of other things to enhance their sporting performance. 315 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: Now the issue, there are many issues with what happened 316 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: in East Germany. One is around the issue of knowledge 317 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 2: and consent of the athletes that were included. So there 318 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: appears to be a range of consent that and understanding 319 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: amongst the athletes themselves. Some of them knew what was 320 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: happening and went along with it. Some of them did 321 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: not know what they were being given. You know, there 322 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: are reports that have come out and some of the 323 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 2: victims themselves have actually spoken out, become academics themselves written 324 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: about this, but that some of them became aware that 325 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: they were getting something that wasn't just a vitamin when 326 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: they started developing. Side of hets so clear, you know, 327 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: sort of what we would think of our human rights violations, 328 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 2: you know, drugging people without consent. The other part of 329 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 2: it was the sort of shocking effectiveness of this regime. 330 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: So East Germany really punched above their weight in terms 331 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: of their metal hole. So East Germany was actually quite 332 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: a small country, not very populous. It wouldn't have been 333 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: predicted to be on par with countries like the US 334 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: with the Soviet Union, with its West German counterpart, it 335 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: would often we understand that population size and economic strength 336 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 2: actually are great predictors of how will you do at 337 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: international sporting competitions, and they were doing extremely well. So 338 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: this did raise red flags as well as some of 339 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: the appearances of many of the athletes, in particularly the 340 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 2: women athletes. 341 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, side effects, Yeah, what kind of things were 342 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: we seeing? 343 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 2: So the women themselves when they would turn up at competitions, 344 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: there were often comments and comments that would be picked 345 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: up by the media from spectators from other athletes about 346 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: how masculine it looked, so large muscles, what they perceived 347 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: to be very square jaws, just basically having sort of 348 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: what we'd understand to be sort of a masculine look 349 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: to them. Now, the actual side effects that these women 350 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: were experiencing are what we still see in women who 351 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 2: use anabolic steroids, So things like a deep in voice, 352 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: growth of facial and other body hair, the sort of 353 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: enlarged clitorous acne, all of the sort of effects on 354 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: sort of their secondary sex characteristics. There are masculinizing effects 355 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: to using these substances, particularly in the types of doses 356 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: that some of these women were getting. You know, the 357 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: East German government wasn't giving them small doses. They were 358 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: giving them the highest doses they could get away with. 359 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: Within the men, it's a little less obvious because generally speaking, 360 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: they were using synthetic testosterone to get these effects, and 361 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 2: in men it sort of amplified the things that we 362 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: already think of as being masculine in men. So it 363 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: made their muscles bigger, maybe made their voices deeper, may 364 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: have increased facial hair, acne, all of the same things. 365 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: It can also lead to some side effects, and these 366 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: are just general side effects of using and Buxeris can 367 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: lead to genocamastia, which is the sort of growth and 368 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: breast tissue in men, can lead to impacts on testicular size. 369 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: So all of these things were occurring in the men. 370 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 2: It was just a bit more difficult to see it 371 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: so clearly within the men than it was within the women. 372 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: After the break nineteen eighty eight Summer Olympics doping scandal 373 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: that changed everything, I wanted to ask you about like, okay, 374 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: after the Shermans, you know, the Olympics start testing athletes. 375 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: Do you remember which games these were specifically? 376 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: So, the first test for antaalox steroids was actually developed 377 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: in the mid nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy four, seventy four. 378 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: What games would that have been? Seventy six, seventy eight. 379 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: And this meant that the International Olympic Committee, amongst others, 380 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: could formally prohibit these. So they had been on the 381 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: list of things that you weren't supposed to do, but 382 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 2: without an enforcement mechanism, there wasn't a lot that could 383 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: be done apart from catching somebody in the act of 384 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 2: using them. And you know, the first tests were fairly rudimentary. 385 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: They basically could say whether or not there was the 386 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: presence of a metabolite. So when these were ruled out, 387 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: this meant that those who were using these had to 388 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: change their oh to avoid getting caught. So in a 389 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: country like East Germany, what this meant was that they 390 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: started pre testing their athletes before they sent them to 391 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: competitions to ensure that they wouldn't flag a dope. Big test. Now, 392 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: this also meant that the science of how quickly substances cleared, 393 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: the body progressed rapidly. They had a fairly good idea 394 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: about how long it would take for the sort of 395 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: metabolites to become undetectable based on the current testing, because 396 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: they were subjecting their athletes to testing ahead of time. Now, 397 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: this led in some cases to being at competitions where 398 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: we would sometimes see athletes drop out of events on 399 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 2: short notice or with no notice. They just wouldn't turn 400 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: up for an event if they it was sort of 401 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 2: understood that there was going to be testing, but because 402 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: it was limited to the incompetition testing, it was still 403 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 2: fairly easy to get around the test. 404 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: So you know, these policies are rulled out and testing 405 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: is instituted. Did it actually help keep competition fair? 406 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: It depends what you mean by fair in the sense 407 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 2: that everyone was going to be tested at the competition 408 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: under a sort of systemized way. Then Yet, if it 409 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 2: meant that everyone had equal opportunity to use, stop use, 410 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 2: and avoid testing positive during those tests, then also yes, 411 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: If it meant that people were actually put off of 412 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: using these substances, then no, we know that was not 413 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 2: the case, and this became very clear in possibly the 414 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: most pivotal scandal in sport doping history, which was Ben 415 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: Johnson at the nineteen eighty eight Olympics. Yeah. 416 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that, like what 417 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: happened and what that sort of did for the rise 418 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: of the anti doping movement. 419 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the Ben Johnson case, which I will say first, 420 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: in my view, is one of the great miscarriages of 421 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: sport justice, not because he didn't do anything wrong, but 422 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: because of the way that the story has been framed historically. 423 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: So basically, in nineteen eighty eight, we're going into the 424 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: Summer Olympics, and of course one of the perennially most 425 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: popular events at the Summer Games is the men's one 426 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: hundred meter final. Going into nineteen eighty eight, there was 427 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: actually quite a rivalry setup that had been hyped by 428 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: the media between Ben Johnson, who's a Canadian sprinter, and 429 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: Carl Lewis, who is the very well known American sprinter. 430 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 5: At this moment, Carlows starts his quest for four gold medal, 431 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 5: a chance to succeed and to walk where no other 432 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 5: athlete has ever been, or to fail and fail magnificently. 433 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: So we get into the final and in news that 434 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: will shock no One. Both Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis 435 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: were there. We're really fortunate here that you have two 436 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: men absolutely in their prime in the Olympic final. Usually 437 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: now the race goes off. 438 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 5: We started is Ben Johnson dart bet. 439 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: And the thing that did shock everyone was that Ben 440 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: Johnson beat Carl Lewis. 441 00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 4: It's bet. 442 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 2: And there are some really great images that you can 443 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 2: find of that race where after they crossed the finish 444 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: line you see this very triumphant Johnson and then just 445 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: over his shoulder we see this very confused and shocked 446 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: Carl Lewis, who cannot believe he didn't win this race. 447 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 2: I just don't know how he does it, or whether 448 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 2: he gets a hypnotist or something, but he does something 449 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 2: to stimulate him in the finals. Now, immediately after this, 450 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: Ben Johnson and others in that final were given an 451 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: anti doping test, and the next day Ben Johnson is 452 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: told that his has comeback positive and he's going to 453 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: have his gold medal taken away. Now, this was a 454 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: surprise to Johnson, again not because he denied using steroids, 455 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: but that he was convinced that he had stopped using 456 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: them in plenty of time before the Games that he 457 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: shouldn't have tested positive and actually the drug that he 458 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 2: was found to have tested positive four he claims he 459 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 2: never actually used. When this story broke, this was an 460 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: overnight scandal and this dominated headlines. 461 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 6: But the main story of the night doesn't concern the 462 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 6: spirit of competition, but a man who's judged to have cheated. 463 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 6: Ben Johnson, celebrated on Saturday as the Olympic one hundred 464 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 6: meters champion, the fastest man of the world, fails a 465 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 6: drug test, is stripped to the gold medal and leaves 466 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 6: the Olympic city in disgrace. 467 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 2: This is the biggest story around those Olympics, and because 468 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: of the sort of size of this scandal and the 469 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: profile of this event and these athletes, the IOC really 470 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: could not not do anything about this. So after the Games, 471 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: you know, he goes he goes back to Canada and 472 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: there is an inquiry opened by the Canadian government and 473 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: this was an investigation into steroid use but also performance 474 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: enhancement generally in Canadian sport, and Ben Johnson cooperated. Basically, 475 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: what they found was that the use of steroids was 476 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: absolutely widespread across Canada. The Ben Johnson scandal also kicked 477 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: off similar investigations in other countries. So Sweden had its 478 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: own investigation that happened. There was something similar that happened 479 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: in the US, not quite the same scale, but there 480 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: was some talk amongst US sporting officials that actually, maybe 481 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: they should be doing better to keep up with the 482 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: Canadians on this. So what happened in Canada put pressure 483 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: on other countries to start paying attention to how this, 484 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: how this was used. That actually it turns out that 485 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: steroid use is much more widespread in sport than anyone thought. 486 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: Now back to that original Games where Johnson lost his medal, 487 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 2: one of the Olympic officials, a high level officials who 488 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: was actually at the games, that was a gentleman named 489 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: Dick Pound. Now Dick Pound was tasked with guiding Ben 490 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 2: Johnson in the wake of his positive test. Dick Pound 491 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: was also Canadian. He was a lawyer, so this did 492 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: make sense. Now. What happened as a result of this 493 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: is that Dick Pound, I think, was quite upset that 494 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: he felt misled by Johnson who proclaimed innocence even in 495 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 2: the face of this positive test, and he actually committed 496 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: himself to this sort of idea of antidoping and sport 497 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: of this fight against doping. So about ten years later 498 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: Dick Pound becomes the first president of the World Antidoping Agency. 499 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: So the creation of the World Anti Doping Agency, what 500 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: countries were on board initially? Was it all the Olympic 501 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: countries or was it to. 502 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: Select view So in nineteen ninety nine was when WADA 503 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 2: was created after the conference at Luzon that was called 504 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: by the IOC, But really this came as a result 505 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: of pressure from national governments following the Festina affair at 506 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety eight Tour de France, and this was 507 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: where several teams, but particularly the Festina racing team, were 508 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: found to be engaging in performance enhancement using all sorts 509 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: of drugs and techniques, and it was this became a 510 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: police action, a French police action, because it was actually 511 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: a team official, Willie Bohett, driving a team car into 512 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: France and he got stopped at the border and his 513 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: car was searched and they found all sorts of doping paraphernalia, substances, 514 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 2: things he wasn't supposed to have, but because it was 515 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: found by the border police, it actually became a police matter. 516 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: So this meant the French government had to be involved, 517 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: so there were hotel raids, there were all of these things, 518 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: and actually the cyclists themselves were really upset at the 519 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: police action, so they actually staged a sit in protest 520 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the Tour de France against this 521 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: sort of interference in the sport. Even though this was 522 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: against the rules, it was sort of one of these 523 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: open secrets within the sport that sort of everybody was 524 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 2: doing it, but actually they now involved the police. Now, 525 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: as a result of this, every other country in the 526 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: world said, we do not want to be in the 527 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: position that France is in. So the IOC needs to 528 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: do something. They have to do something. So the IOC 529 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: at this point was the global policy making body for 530 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: antidoping in sport, and they felt that they had this 531 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: pretty much under control. Yes, this was a scandal. Here's 532 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 2: what we'll do. We'll call a meeting, everybody will get 533 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: together and lose on, will come up with some new ideas, 534 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: and basically they expected to leave that meeting still in 535 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: control of antidoping. What they did not expect was sort 536 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: of the pushback from national governments who do not want 537 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: to repeat of what happened in France. So this ends 538 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: up with an agreement to set up a quasi independent 539 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: body that would be the sort of global policy maker 540 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: for antidoping in sport, and this is where we get 541 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: the World Antidoping Agency. 542 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on quasi a little bit? 543 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 4: So? 544 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 2: The reason that I say that is because the idea 545 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: that you would have sports or countries making and enforcing 546 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: antidoping policy themselves was a bit like the fox looking 547 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: after the henhouse, right that, really, would they be willing 548 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: to turn their own athletes in or would the Olympics 549 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: want that sort of negative publicity that they would have 550 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: to give themselves by holding superstar athletes accountable. So what 551 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: they wanted was something that was a bit more independent 552 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: than that, that would be a real regulatory body. The 553 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: problem is that to fund something like this, that money 554 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 2: had to come from somewhere, because antidoping is it was 555 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: and remains extremely expensive. So the WATA budget was agreed 556 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: to be covered fifty percent by the Olympic movement and 557 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: fifty percent by the sort of member countries. So in 558 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: the past few years there's been a lot of tension 559 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: between USADA in the United States and WADA. The reason 560 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: that this becomes such a big deal is because as 561 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: the US threatened to do at multiple points is withhold 562 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: their contribution to the WADA budget. It's such a big 563 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: proportion that actually it really constricts what WADA can actually do. 564 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: After the break, we get into Water's legacy and April's 565 00:31:53,320 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: thoughts on the enhanced Games. Since the establishment of WATA, 566 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: there've been at least two major scandals, and I'm thinking 567 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: about Lance Armstrong twenty twelve the Russian doping scandal in 568 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I'm curious for your take on like what 569 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: wata's legacy to this point is sort of looking like 570 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: in your head. 571 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: I think WATA and antidoping in the Olympic movement was 572 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: initially extremely well intentioned. The idea of keeping sport fair 573 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: and safe, I think, are generally speaking positive things. I 574 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: think part of the issues with WATA and some of 575 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: the issues for its legacy are around the way that 576 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: they have decided to define that and the way that 577 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: they have decided to implement that. So, in terms of 578 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 2: the complete one hundred percent zero tolerance prohibition approach, strict 579 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: liability leaves no room for error. This means literally the 580 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 2: different athlete makes a mistake and ingests something without even 581 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: realizing they're doing it, they can still be on the 582 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: hook if they return a positive sample. Now there are 583 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: some mitigations to that, but what we have seen is 584 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: that actually it's really really difficult unless you have a 585 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 2: lot of money and a lot of very sophisticated legal 586 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: support to actually have a defense against a positive doping test. 587 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: That's a real problem because we also know that athletes 588 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: are human, they're fallible, they make mistakes. But it also 589 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: leaves no room for development or for innovation in terms 590 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: of what people might use, what might be useful, what 591 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: might even be healthy. Based on this sort of quite 592 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: conservative approach to WATA. Now, I think that has led 593 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: to a quite a bit of backlash in some ways. 594 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: So when we see athletes being punished for simple mistakes, 595 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: or conversely, we see athletes that because we've been conditioned 596 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: to not believe any of the reasonings for a positive test, 597 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: we see athletes who get off without much punishment at all, 598 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: and we sort of go, is that really fair? Is 599 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: that really fair? You're not gonna you're not gonna do 600 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: anything about that. Is it because they're wealthy? Is it 601 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: because there it's that country, what is the reasoning around that? 602 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: And it's set up a lot of mistrust in sport, 603 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: the vogue to hell is paid with good intentions, but 604 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: in this case it really does seem that there could 605 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 2: have been different choices made. There could have been a 606 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: bit more flexibility or allowing a bit more of an 607 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: athlete voice that hasn't been taken up. 608 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: And what sort of is the incentive for WATA in 609 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: terms of like being permissive for say, Russian athletes competing. 610 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: What is the sort of the incentive for them to 611 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: allow those athletes to still compete under a slightly different 612 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: flag even though they have a zero tolerance policy. 613 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: Supposeily this goes back to the sort of entwined ideas 614 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: of sport claiming to be politically neutral or apolitical, which 615 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: is clearly impossible. Neutrality is a political choice, but also 616 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 2: the sort of tension with the desire to avoid collective punishment. 617 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 2: So the idea that we actually shouldn't be punishing those 618 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: who haven't done anything wrong, but that they have to 619 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: hold the actual federation or the club or the team 620 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: or whatever it is, that they have to hold that 621 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: unit accountable. But in practice we all have eyes. We 622 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: all have ears. We've all seen what the independent athletes 623 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: from Russia look like at the Russian Games. They're not 624 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,959 Speaker 2: supposed to have flags, they're not supposed to have these things. 625 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 2: But there's still a team. There's still independent athletes to 626 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: Marutia that has become a team in itself. There was 627 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: no good option for them at that point because there 628 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: was no mechanism to deal with state sponsored doping built 629 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: into the WATER Code. There was no contingency plan, there 630 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: was no there's nothing. So they were really on the 631 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 2: back foot on that one, trying to figure out, Okay, 632 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: how do we hold this system accountable while not disadvantaging 633 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 2: the athletes and also Russia. Let's be real, it always 634 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: comes back to money. Russia is one of the biggest 635 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: media markets for international sport, particularly the Olympic Games. You 636 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: ban Russian athletes, Russians aren't going to tune in nearly 637 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 2: at the same way. So that would cost the IOC 638 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: or any of these sports federations lots of money, which 639 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 2: they don't want to give up. 640 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: What do you see as being like a sort of 641 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: smarter approach that an organization like water could take going forward. 642 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: I'm an academic and I'm part of an academic community 643 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: of researchers who have made lots and lots of recommendations 644 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: or suggestions over the years, and none of them have 645 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 2: been taken up. One of the things that many of 646 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: us have said is that the sort of zero tolerance, 647 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 2: prohibitive approach is going to eventually lead to some sort 648 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: of backlash. And some of the things that we've suggested 649 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: in the interim or to prevent this, or to make 650 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: this a bit more fair instead of just this black 651 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: white yes note, would be to do things like shorten 652 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: the prohibited substances list. So every year this list gets longer. 653 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: There it is rare for anything to be removed from 654 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 2: this list, But every year this list gets longer, And 655 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: as this gets longer, it gets harder and harder to follow, 656 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: and harder and harder to avoid things that are on it. 657 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: What if we actually only include things that are demonstrated 658 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: to be performance enhancing in some way. What if we 659 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: focus on just the things that have demonstrated ability to 660 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,959 Speaker 2: harm an individual At the end of the day, antidoping 661 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 2: is a set of arbitrary lines around what is and 662 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: what isn't allowed. So other recommendations so The one that 663 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: I advocate for is actually that we have as a 664 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 2: sort of scaled approach, so as you're going up through 665 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 2: the sort of levels of sport competition, that your levels 666 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 2: of education and support are actually increased as you go up. 667 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: You know, if you're fifteen sixteen years old, you live 668 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 2: with your parents, or do you get to decide what 669 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 2: goes into your dinner? You know, these types of things. 670 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: Should we be holding them to the same standard as 671 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: grown men and women who do have control over these things, 672 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 2: and who have lots and lots of coaching and metal 673 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 2: support and oversight and people to look out for these things. 674 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: Those are not the same. 675 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: When did you first hear about the enhanced Games? And 676 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: what was sort of your reaction to them? 677 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: So very different from what it is now. So I 678 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: first heard about this on Twitter. Actually, someone forwarded me 679 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 2: some tweet. I think it was probably from Aaron Desuza 680 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 2: himself talking about this idea for the enhanced Games, and 681 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: all good academics we've all gone through the sort of 682 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: mental exercise of God, what would it be like if 683 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: we did sport and we let people use whatever they wanted. 684 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: It is a sort of an academic exercise that you do. 685 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 2: So initially I was quite I was just curious, curious 686 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: enough that two years ago we invited Aaron Desuza as 687 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: the keynote speaker for the International Network of Doping Researchers 688 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: that I'm the joint director of. And he came and 689 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: gave us his basically his pitch for what this was 690 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: and why this was a great idea, And Yeah, took 691 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 2: some questions, many he didn't have great answers to while 692 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: acknowledging that he's not a scientist, he's not a doctor. 693 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: He's not he's not even a sports doctor. To be fair. 694 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: He came, he took the questions, and Yeah, I left 695 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: with very very different view of things than when I 696 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 2: went in. I'll put it that way. 697 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: What was the main part of his argument that sort 698 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: of made a flip swhich in your head that. 699 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: It had very little to do with sport, That this 700 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: became very clearly it was profit motivated and this was 701 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 2: a way of leveraging sport and athletes' bodies to sell 702 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 2: enhancement products to the public. Yeah, which I am fully 703 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 2: aware that alcohol companies, tobacco companies, oil companies, all of 704 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: these things that we may not love are some of 705 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 2: the biggest sponsors and supporters of professional and elite sport. 706 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: I fully understand that the difference here was the sort 707 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 2: of idea that we're going to take all of the 708 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: guardrails off and we're going to the one athlete who 709 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 2: I'm sure he regrets saying this in this way, but 710 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to dope to the gills. Well, 711 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: we know those some of us who do this work, 712 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 2: We know what this can look like, and we also 713 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: understand what needs to be done in order to minimize 714 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 2: the long term risk to athlete health. Because as much 715 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: as criticism I have against WATA, I actually do think 716 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 2: athlete health should be the priority. They're doing it safely, 717 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: and then they're sort of rushing into it before you 718 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 2: have your ducks in a row. 719 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: What struck me about them was this really moderated approach 720 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: in terms of athlete safety, like constant monitoring, constant testing, 721 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: and constant reassessment about whether something is working or not 722 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: for them. Do you see an idea like this being 723 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: something that can actually make a difference in the world 724 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: of sport that do you think it could have any 725 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: positive change? 726 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,959 Speaker 2: I think in some ways yes, So I think there's 727 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 2: already been some positive change, so we've now seen so 728 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 2: one of the big one of his big talking points 729 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 2: is that he's going to compensate athletes in a very 730 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: different way. So at the last Athletics Track and Field 731 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 2: a World Athletics Championships, we see price purses in ways 732 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: that we haven't seen them before, and I cannot believe 733 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 2: that's not directly related to this push that athletes are 734 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 2: going Actually, we need to be compensated in a more 735 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 2: fair way. You make so much money off of us. 736 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 2: You look at how much the Olympics turns over in 737 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 2: any given olympiad and it's huge, It's in the billions, 738 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 2: and athletes get a very small amount of that. There 739 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 2: is there has been that in terms of the enhancement stuff. 740 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 2: I will be honest, I do not see that moving. 741 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: What he's doing or what he's proposing for these athletes 742 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 2: is not new. So one of my main areas of 743 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: research has been on internet forums, looking at people who 744 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 2: use animaloic steroids specifically, but a whole range of performance 745 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 2: enhancing drugs and how they do it safely, sometimes less safely, 746 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: the risks that they're willing to take this isn't new. 747 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 2: Maybe this seems like it gives it a bit of 748 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 2: a legitimate platform, But at some point, what happens when 749 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,479 Speaker 2: we break the world record? Where do we go from there? 750 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 2: Because eventually is can we continue this push? Is the 751 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 2: development and the way of using these substances going to 752 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,760 Speaker 2: be able to keep up with that sort of first 753 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,240 Speaker 2: for new records and breaking boundaries and all of these things, 754 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,479 Speaker 2: or is this going to be a one off maybe 755 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: a two off event, because really the purpose behind this 756 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 2: is contract with pharmaceutical companies, and so it's sort of 757 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 2: this blending of the performance culture, anti aging, panic around wellness, 758 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 2: the imperative to be well, to be healthy, to constantly 759 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 2: be better, and the sort of neoliberalization of life that's 760 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 2: been going on for decades. I mean, the idea that 761 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 2: you're not well. It's like do I need another product 762 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 2: or do I need universal healthcare? 763 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: April, This is so good, This is so fantastic. This 764 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: stuff I found absolutely enthralling and fascinating and worth talking about. 765 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 2: Nice to meet you and yeah thanks. 766 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: Superhuman is a Kaleidoscale production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. 767 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,760 Speaker 1: The series is produced, reported, and co hosted by Sam 768 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: Egan then Emzzi's mental is our senior producer. Production support 769 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: from Dara Luk Potts, Edited by Kate Osborne, Editorial consulting 770 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: by Adiza Egan, Original composition by Hannis Brown, mixing by 771 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: Pran Bandy, Reported and hosted by me Chris Guyamali. From Kaleidoscope, 772 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Ozwa Oshan Mangeshati Kador 773 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 1: and Kosislinos. Julia Nutter is the head of Studio for Kaleidoscope, 774 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: and From My Heart. Our executive produces our Katrina Norval 775 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: and Nikki Etor. If you like what you're hearing, subscribe 776 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: to the feed now so you don't miss our next 777 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:33,479 Speaker 1: straw