1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Quody batters, but Joseph's gotten more. As of right now, 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and give this to you because I 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: need to have a chronological time frame so you can 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: appreciate what I'm saying here. It's March ninth, so all 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Major League Baseball teams have reported and what that means 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: for those of us that are baseball fans. You know, 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: the pitchers and the catchers show up early, the rest 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the team shows up, and I think they've already 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: started playing playing games to this point. You know, Opening 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: day is in April. And you know, one of the 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: things that is I think is most difficult in baseball 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: is not so much what the pitchers have to do, 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: but it's the timing that the batters have to reprepare 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: themselves for now. A lot of them play in other 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: leagues during the off season, but some of them, I 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: would imagine, many of the really wealthy ones just walk 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: away and say I'll do it in spring. Timing is 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: in fact everything. Just imagine, if you will, though, that 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: a bat, a baseball bat, is a weapon, and it 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: has a certain amount of utility to it. You know, 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: we have all manner of weapons out there, things that 22 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: might not necessarily normally be weapons, but are used as 23 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: weapons of convenience. Today, I want to talk about a 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: brutal double homicide that involves a baseball bat and also 25 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: the death of the person that perpetrated that double homicide 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: at the end of a three h eight rifle. I'm 27 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks with today's case. Dave, 28 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: We've got I don't know that you and I have 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: covered in my memory at least a double homicide involving 30 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: a baseball bat. Now I got it. Let me back 31 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: off just for a second, because I got a story 32 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: to tell you, and you're not going to You're not 33 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: going to believe this. Because I was sitting here I 34 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 1: kind of meditated on this case earlier today because it's 35 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: important to talk about. Did you know that the very 36 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: first homicide case I was involved in when I was 37 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: twenty or twenty one years old in New Orleans, I 38 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: was an autopsy assistant. It was a homicide involved in 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: a baseball bat and it was a guy that beat 40 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: his brother to death in the front yard with this thing. 41 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: And I remember a guy that wound up being a 42 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: really good friend of mine. He was a detective and 43 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: he showed up for the for the autopsy, and this 44 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: guy was in the tray right in the morgue and 45 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: we had yet to get him out. And I pull 46 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: the tray out, and it's not like a it's not 47 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: like a typical tray that pushes into the wall from 48 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: going from feet to head. This is the kind of 49 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: tray where this door lets down on this gigantic stainless 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: steel box and you pull the entire tray out towards 51 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: your waist and the person is sitting there or lying there, 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: and you can just kind of pull them over onto 53 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: a gurney and then get him on. And I remember 54 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: unwrapping this guy because he was not in a body bag. 55 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: He had been brought into the emergency room. And for 56 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: those that don't know, emergency rooms and hospitals use something 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: called a mortpack, and years and years ago and they 58 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: literally used to wrap bodies and plastic and then send 59 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: them down to the morgan and it didn't matter what 60 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: the case was. You know, hospitals didn't necessarily back then, 61 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: in particular, they didn't really their goal was not to 62 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: preserve evidence. I'm not saying that out of spite or meanness. 63 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: It's just they've got to go into the next case, 64 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: particularly in the emergency room. So they wrap the body up, 65 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: taking the Morgan, and you know, it shows up there. 66 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: And I remembered this detective that I was talking about, 67 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: and he looked at me we were standing there because 68 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: he wanted to get up a polaroid. That's how far 69 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: back this goes of this guy's face. And I said, man, 70 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: this guy, he just looks evil. He looks evil. And 71 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: I remember distinctly him saying this. He actually crosses himself 72 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: by the crypt and says, please don't say that. You're 73 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: going to curse this case. And I'll never be able 74 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: to fully investigate this thing, even though it was a 75 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: just fiable homicide because his brother was attacking him, and 76 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: brother picked up a baseball bat and dispatched his brother 77 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: in the front yard, and he had I'll never forget 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: this guy had these kind of spider webbing lacerations all 79 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: over his skull, Dave, and they were if you imagine 80 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: what a spider web looks like, where you've kind of 81 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: got a bull's eye right in the second right forget me, 82 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: right in the center and the little support lines and 83 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: a spider web kind of extend outward to the outer fringes. 84 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: It almost looks like fractured glass only skin. He had 85 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: multiple of these lying over his scalp. And then when 86 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: we got the scalp reflected, which means to insize the 87 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: scalp and pull it forward over the eyes and then 88 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: pull it backwards so that the skull. Did you know 89 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: that those lacerations and you don't see this every single time, 90 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: but those lacerations, which there was probably about five of 91 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: these spider webbing, there were concurrent spider webbing fractures to 92 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: the external table the skull that matched up almost perfectly. 93 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: So my thought was, and I think the pathologist came 94 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: the same conclusion. The first strike was to the temple 95 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: and the guy goes down to his knees. Now he 96 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: had hit his brother in the face multiple times and 97 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: the brother had raccoon eyes. He'd broken his nose, and 98 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: the brother was furious. He didn't just lay there. He 99 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: ran in the house, got this baseball bat and begins 100 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: to attack his brother and beat him to death with 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: this thing. And these injuries are fascinating because it's really 102 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: that's really the only one, and that came from his statement. 103 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: That's really the only one that we could sequence, you know, 104 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: because he said I struck my brother or hit my 105 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: brother on the side of his head. And then as 106 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: he is down on his knees, he's on top of him, 107 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: striking downward. And we believe that he actually took that 108 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: had baseball bat almost like as kind of the pis 109 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: to resistance, stood over his brother's body and almost like 110 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: the sword and the stone, and only the reverse drove 111 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: the the long axis of the barrel with the blunt 112 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: ind right down into the other temple of his brother's head. 113 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: It was. It was absolutely brutal. So that was kind 114 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: of my That was first off, it was the first 115 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: case that I ever worked as a new medical legal 116 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: person of a baseball pat. I had others afterwards, but 117 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: it's also my very first case I ever worked a 118 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. So when we came across this case cases, 119 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: I was intrigued by this day because it made me, 120 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, go back in time, begin to think about, 121 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, kind of kind of what happened here you fashed. 122 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: Before, about how when when the murderer, Winnie killer uses 123 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: something like strangling you killing somebody with your bare hands 124 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: kind of thing, A knife, that those are more personal 125 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: than you using a gun. And in this case where 126 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: you're using a bat, would you equate that with the 127 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: kind of personal contact they may have with the individual 128 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: as strangling or using a knife, or would you put 129 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: it in the gun side of things? Yeah, because in 130 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: both of these cases, you're talking about brothers here, we're 131 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: talking about you know, in laws here. 132 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: Right. I'm not trying to be a smartle like a 133 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: by saying this. It's certainly a lot more personal than 134 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: shooting them at a great disc right, And anything that 135 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: puts the This is why I look at anything that 136 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: puts the see how can I phrase this? Anything that 137 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: puts the perpetrator at a greater risk of bodily harm? 138 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: To me, that kind of fits within those parameters because 139 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: let me tell you something, It's just like with a knife. 140 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: If you show up with a knife or a bludgeon 141 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: and there's actually a weapon out there. I think goes 142 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: back to the days of the Nights that they refer 143 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: to as a bludgeon. It's a specific, but that's where 144 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: the term comes from. But if you use a bludgeon, 145 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: you're in great danger of having that thing taken away 146 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: from you and you're going to be beat to death 147 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: with it, or have your throat cut or whatever the 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: case might be. But in this case, this was so personal. 149 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about brothers here, and there's a 150 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: lot brothers love one another. But boy, when you talk 151 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: about getting into another territory where hate kind of takes root. 152 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to brothers, there's a lot 153 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: of passion, and boy, those fights can be something to behold. 154 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: But when you're an individual who has been cast aside 155 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: by your girlfriend and you think perhaps her parents had 156 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: something to do with it, remember this. No one likes 157 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: rejection and in this case, Brad Sigmund could be the 158 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: poster child Joe. 159 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: As we get into this story today, we were talking 160 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: about executions and a lot of it has to do 161 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: with the nationwide discussion because of the chance of Brian 162 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: Coberger's trial. Yes, the case has been huge and Coburger 163 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: has already they've already talked about the type of sentence, 164 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: if it was a death sentence, how to be carried out. 165 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: You and I have done stories about the carrying out 166 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: of death sentences, you know, through lethal injection and other means. 167 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: And now they've actually worked on getting legislation passed in 168 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: Idaho that firing squad would be the primary method for 169 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: execution yep and everything else after that, not making it 170 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: a secondary option, making it the primary option. And in 171 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: this case today where Brad Sigmund is accused of dating 172 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: Barbara and being boyfriend girlfriend for a significant enough time 173 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: that they had been together for a while that when 174 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: she broke up with him, he was mortified, horrified, terrified 175 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: of himself, and he took it out on her and 176 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 2: her family. His goal wasn't just to kill her parents. 177 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: His goal was to kill all of them, but what 178 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: he really wanted to do. So he says, okay, and 179 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: we got to I always wonder about this, Joe. You've 180 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: been on this side of things for a long time 181 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: as an investigator and seeing the aftermath of Hainus crimes. 182 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: When somebody tells you, even though they didn't do it, 183 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: that my idea was, I was going to kill her 184 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: then kill myself. Do you believe them or is it 185 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: because they're alive they're able to tell that. Did they 186 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: not have the guts to go through with it? 187 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,239 Speaker 1: Yeah? I'd refer to that as a lack of commitment 188 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: to the task. In my opinion at least in. 189 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: That not that we're encouraging people to commit suicide, but 190 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: don't you kill everybody? 191 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: No, they they'll sit around and they'll talk about this 192 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: sort of thing, you know, and I think many of that, 193 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: many times that's a sympathy grab. It's also something that 194 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: they use in order to try to leverage the court 195 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: to bestow mercy. Perhaps from the perspective of that, I'm 196 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: mentally ill. And with Sigmund, you know, there was a 197 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: lot there was a lot of Hay made over his 198 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: mental illness quote unquote you know, in the wake of 199 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: all of that, what he did, Joe, Yeah. 200 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: He actually goes to their house with a baseball bat. 201 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 202 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: He finds the victims here, mister and missus Lark. Okay, there, 203 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: Barbara's mom and dad ex his girlfriend of her is 204 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: now ex girlfriend for a week, okay. But he finds 205 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: David Lark in a room in the house, and he 206 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: finds Gladys Lark. He finds David in the kitchen and 207 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: Gladys in the living room. Now we know this because 208 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: he beat them to death with a baseball bat. Separately, 209 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: he attacks David in the living room and beats him 210 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: with a bat, gets him down, then runs into the 211 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: kitchen where he beats Gladys. He then comes back to 212 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: David and beats him some more, then goes back to 213 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 2: glad He's going, have you ever in your life of 214 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: investigating murders, Joe, ever come up with somebody going back 215 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: and forth? 216 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: I don't think I was trying to do my recall 217 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: on that, and how much effort I'm thinking, you know, 218 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: and this kind of thought passed through my mind, just 219 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: to go, how absent of mercy do you have to be? 220 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: Because you know, every time you remove yourself, say from 221 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: the kitchen, to go back into the other room, and 222 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: you bear witness to what you have done the time before, 223 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: you're not stemmed in any way. You're still all in. 224 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: And here's an interesting little little side fact here, Dave, 225 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: did you know that he struck each victim precisely nine 226 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: times each? So let's just think about this, Just think 227 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: about it. Let's go back to baseball. If you're in 228 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: the cage and you swing the bat eighteen times, I 229 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: don't know if in a regular practice that's a lot 230 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: of swings that you're taking up at you know, at 231 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: pitching or whatever they call it. Hitting practice. I would 232 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: think you'd be exhausted. And this guy ain't a pro 233 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: baseball player. His tongue's will be dragging. But you know, 234 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: he's pumped full of adrenaline and hatred at this point 235 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: in time, and perhaps panicked as well. I can only imagine. 236 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: Because here's the thing. If he had and we'll get 237 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: to this in just a moment, if he had used 238 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: a pistol to kill both of these people, he would 239 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: not have borne witness to the volume of blood that 240 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: he saw. This scene is going to be something that 241 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: would be very difficult to work, particularly if you're trying 242 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: to assess blood patterned deposition. You know, you think about 243 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: the one victim in the kitchen, and this kind of 244 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: comes to mind because I've had cases like this where 245 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: if you got the adjacent cabinry, cabin and tree right there, 246 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: you're going to have when that bat strikes downward, it's 247 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: almost like, and I'm not trying to be flip here, 248 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: but it's something that many people can'tcessarily identify with. Think 249 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: about Gallagher the old watermelon, you know, uh yeah, the 250 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: sledgematic routine and every time, you know, and people would 251 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: have to literally they would come to the audience and 252 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: hold up a hold up a sheet of plastic. I 253 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: mean they paid for this. I mean, you know, God 254 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: bless you go in peace is what you do. But 255 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: every time he would strike that watermelon with the sledge 256 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: of Mattic, which was this gigantic oversized mallet, it would 257 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: spray outward and deposit on all of those people. And 258 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: so if once you get that, and remember when Gallagher 259 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: would do that as one strike, that was one strike 260 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: per watermelon, does that frame it for you? This guy 261 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: is striking the husband and the wife nine times individually, 262 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: and he is traveling between the two. I can only imagine. 263 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: I can only imagine when they're documenting this thing, because 264 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: the DA is probably not at the scene, all right. 265 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: I can only imagine when the DA gets this case 266 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: file from the police Dave, and he's got the forensics 267 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: people explaining this to them, and you've got these overlapping 268 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: fan patterns like this, and the blood guy is like saying, yeah, 269 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: see these convergent lines right here from this particular pattern. 270 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: That's one strike, that's two strikes, that's three, that's four, 271 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: that's six, that's seven, And all the while, all the 272 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: while the DA is thinking, Okay, yeah, this might be 273 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and when I 274 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: go to grand jury, I'm going to nail this guy 275 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: to the wall. As a matter of fact, we're going 276 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: full on on those all. 277 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: Right, Well, let me ask you. We've talked about how 278 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: Nancy Gray says that you can in the blink of 279 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: an eye you can form intent. In this case, we've 280 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: got a man who the way it sounded, the way 281 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: it was described, taking turns, hitting the husband and hitting 282 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: the wife, then coming, you know, going from room to room. 283 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Is that something that is argued by the prosecution to 284 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 2: make it seem worse than it. I mean, it's horrible 285 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: as it is, but I mean I'm trying to figure 286 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: out because they each had exactly the same number of hits, 287 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: and they're in different rooms of the house. So it 288 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: didn't happen bat like a cartoon. It actually happened where 289 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 2: they were both down, and he had to have had 290 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: them both down with injuries at some point. But taking 291 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: turns or you know, I hit Gladys one time, hit 292 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: David one time. They're both on the ground. Now I 293 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: sit here and pound David eight more times than I 294 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: go in and pound Gladys eight more times. I'm not 295 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: trying to be flipping, as you mentioned a minute ago. 296 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to get down to how does one 297 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: actually go about using the same weapon and they can 298 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: determine that that was the same baseball bat used on 299 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: both individuals? 300 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: Correct? Well, oh yeah, no, And what you're going to 301 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: have that's an excellent question. Let's just say that we've 302 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: got two buckets of paint. We got a blue bucket 303 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: and we've got a red bucket. Okay, see, if you 304 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: take the analogy of dipping the bat in red paint 305 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: and then in blue paint, you're going to have a 306 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: commingling of blood in that particular case. I know that's 307 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: rather elementary, but it's the same principle. And if you think, okay, well, 308 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: for the second argument, one individual a has opaused, the 309 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: other one has oneg Well, those blood types which they 310 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: would have gotten their blood type perhaps at the morgue 311 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: they didn't know it already from the dot from their 312 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: attending physition, then you've got a big tell there. Scientifically. Now, 313 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: this was back in two thousand and one, Dave, and 314 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: we use DNA back then. But I really wonder if 315 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: they use DNA in this case because they've got a 316 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: suspect at that time. He's no longer a suspect. He's 317 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: been convicted and sentenced and we'll find out what actually 318 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: happened to him. But you've got a guy that's trying 319 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: to paint this impression that he's sicken of mind. Well, Dave, 320 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: this is where we get the information from about what 321 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: specifically happened, you know, because if you're if you're trying 322 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: to paint the story, I often drift back to Kenneth 323 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: Bianki from the Hillside Stranglers, where he was feigning multiple 324 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: personality disorder, and it's one of the most fascinating interviews 325 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: you've ever seen of somebody feigning psychopathology. It's a black 326 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: and white CCTV interview that he does, that they do 327 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: with this guy, and suddenly this other person appears. You've 328 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: got Kenneth, who was very sweet and mild manner, and 329 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: you got this other guy. I can't remember what the 330 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: name of the guy was, and he's referring to women 331 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: as broad's and all these sorts of things. Yeah, I 332 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: killed her, we raped her, you know, so forth and 333 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: so on. He's trying to sell a Bill Goods here. 334 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: It's no different with this. This guy's trying to sell 335 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: them on the fact that he has some kind of psychopathology. 336 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: It's not just simply well, you're a murderer, and you 337 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: took a bat like a petulant child, and you threw 338 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: a temper tantrum and you beat these poor people to 339 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: helen back who you know, they had probably fed him 340 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: over the years. They probably celebrated the holidays with this guy. 341 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, He and Barbara have been together for three years. 342 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 2: They have been living together. When she gets done with Okay, 343 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: she didn't just walk out of a wonderful relationship, obviously, Okay, 344 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: think about the end result. And this is only a week. 345 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: In the week that she breaks up with him, she 346 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 2: moves back in with her parents. He then, for that 347 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: next week apparently stalks her terrorized. They're trying to figure 348 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 2: out if she's seeing somebody else doing all those crazy 349 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: things that men do when they're possessive like this, and 350 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: he goes and kills her parents. His goal is to 351 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 2: then lie in wait to kill her, to kill Barbara. 352 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: I don't know what his other plan was, to go 353 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: from room to room waiting for them to be dead. 354 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: You know, he made sure they were both dead. Then 355 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: he laid in wait for his ex girlfriend to arrive, 356 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: and then he does something different with her, Joe. He 357 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: actually steals David's gun. He knows David has a gun, yep, 358 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 2: and so he steals his gun and when Barbara gets home, 359 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: he kidnaps her at gunpoint, puts her in the car. Now, 360 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 2: Barbara is an interesting, unique, strong woman. I don't know 361 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: what kind of guts it took for her boy, but 362 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: he's driving down the road. She knew if I don't, 363 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 2: if I don't get away from him right now, I'm dead. 364 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: She jumped out of a moving car and ran through 365 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: a field for her life. And that person of Brad 366 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: Sigmund tried shooting or tried following her, he couldn't. She 367 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: got away from him. I'm pure, just I'm getting away. 368 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: She is the hero of her own life story in 369 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: that moment, and I pray that she has recovered from 370 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: what took place that night. 371 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he did actually hit the target one time, 372 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: because she wound up having to get surgery. He popped 373 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: off a single round or multiple rounds, but popped off 374 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: around and she got shot in the foot. Can you imagine, well, 375 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: first off, the pain of that. If you've ever broken 376 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: your ankle, twisted your ankle, and now you've got a 377 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: lead core projectile slamming into your foot, It's one of 378 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: the most painful things. But yet you're pumped with adrenaline. 379 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: You know that there's a homicidal maniac behind you, and 380 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: you're trying to get as much distance between yourself and 381 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: that individual. And thankfully you know she did get away. 382 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: But can you imagine what she's had to live with 383 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: all of these years because she's had to look back. 384 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: I would imagine many times in those still quiet hours 385 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: of the night and think only if only if her 386 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: path had never crossed with Sigmund all those many years 387 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: years ago. But here we are. It did, and as 388 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: it's turned out, his case in particular, and I'll go 389 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: ahead and give you a peek, his death has made 390 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: national news. I'm a fan of Stanley Kubrick. I think 391 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: I've actually mentioned him before on Bodybags, and I think 392 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: the reason I'm a fan is that he's a detailed 393 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: person and I'm not. And I know this sounds weird, 394 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: since I'm in forensic science and you know, I'm supposed 395 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: to be looking for evidence. But with him, every thing, 396 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: every frame that he shot was planned everything. And with 397 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: that said, there is a movie that came out that 398 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: starred Kirk Douglas and you know, I like Kirk Douglas 399 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: as much as the next person. But and he was 400 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: front and center. You know, that's how you get, as 401 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: they say, butts in the seats to buy tickets. But 402 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: he was not really the star of that movie day. 403 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: The movie is actually Passed of Glory and it takes 404 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: place in World War One, France, and it is about 405 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: three soldiers in the French army and it is one 406 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: of the most gut wretching movies you have ever seen. 407 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 1: I mean, it is so so powerful. These guys because 408 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: of the failure of their commander. You know, they did 409 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: the trench warfare, you know, going over the top, and 410 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: these guys were brave. I think a couple of the 411 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: characters have been awarded medals. The commander was forced to 412 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: select three guys as examples, and all three of them 413 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: were shot by firing squad And the scene where they're 414 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: walking down it looks like they're at Versailles. The scene 415 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: where they're walking down this long avenue and the soldiers. 416 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: There are long lines of soldiers. Every time they pass 417 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: a group of soldiers, they do in about face and 418 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: turn their backs to these guys. There's a priest, you know, 419 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: speaking to each one of the men as they're walking along. 420 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: One guy is just out of his mind. Another guy 421 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: is got his chest poked out, he's going to his 422 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: end bravely. And the other guy is on a stretcher 423 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: and unconscious, and they strapped him to a post and 424 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: shot him. They shot all three of these guys. I 425 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: don't want to spoil it for you, but for me, 426 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: when I see that movie, I think about Firing Squad, 427 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: and it really got my attention. Reasons it's so powerful, 428 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: is that, out of all execution methods that are out 429 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: there that are still being used in Western countries, I 430 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: guess the Finding Squad, in my opinion, is the quickest. 431 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean, is in fact the quickest. You know. One 432 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: of the big things that has gone on and on 433 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: for years is this debate over lethal injection, because you know, 434 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: the drug cocktail that has to be administered to people loath. 435 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: These many years, they never can quite seem to get 436 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: it right, and then the thing goes to court and 437 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: they have to adjust it. Then pharmaceutical companies, you know, 438 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: they don't want to they don't want to be part 439 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: of it, so it's hard. They claim that it's hard 440 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: to get the meds and that sort of thing. And 441 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: then there have been some some horror stories that people 442 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: have written about labored breathing. Takes a long time to die, 443 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily effective in every case. Then you go 444 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: back to the electric chair before that, and you think 445 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: about just the images if you ever get a chance, 446 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: by the way, if you ever get a chance to 447 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: look at the images of Ted Bundy's body done in 448 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: Florida after they've removed him from the death chamber, you'll 449 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: see what I'm talking about, because his head is shaved 450 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: and he sustained second third degree burns to the top 451 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: of his head. And I know what many of you 452 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: are saying, he deserved every bit of it. I'm not 453 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: going to debate that with you. However, when you see electrocution, 454 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of you can tell that it takes for 455 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: some takes a bit because what they'll do is they'll 456 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: bump it. They'll bump the person hit them initially, and 457 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: you'll see the body tense up. Then they'll relax, doctor 458 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: will come out check for a heartbeat and to say 459 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: still breathing, and then they hit it again. Okay. And 460 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: there are any number of stories where they actually have 461 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: fires to start in the skull cap. You can smell 462 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 1: the flesh burning, all these sorts of things. It's very, 463 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: very unpleasant. But you know, Dave, with firing squad, it's 464 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: something completely different, and we've wound up in this position. 465 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I want to talk about 466 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: this case. We've wound up in this position because Sigmund 467 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: protested so much about the barbarity of lethal injection and 468 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: then the barbarity of the ancient the ancient electric chair, 469 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: which this is in South Carolina, where they'd had a 470 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: lot of these cases that went sideways, that he talked 471 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: himself into a firing squad, and the state, I think 472 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: it was a few years ago, they went ahead and 473 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: mocked one up and then built it. It's a heck 474 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: of a thing I think that they are now. South 475 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: Carolina is one of I hope I get this right. 476 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: Five states now that have it. All the books. Most 477 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 1: most of America's experiences with firing squads go to the military, 478 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: and many of them worl War two. I think we 479 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: had let me get this straight. We had we had 480 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: many that were in theater, you know, like over in Europe, 481 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: there were a few in Southeast Asia. There was one 482 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: in New Zealand that our guys did, and this variety 483 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: that's out there. You know. There was a movie that 484 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: was famously made about Eddie Slovak or Slovak, I can't remember. 485 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: Martin Sheen played a character and he's the only person 486 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: in US history or in World War two rather that 487 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: was executed by firing squad for desertion. Everybody else that 488 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: was executed by firing squad was it was rapeer murder. 489 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: So he was kind of this outlier. But you know, 490 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: firing squads are something we've been familiar with the first settlers. 491 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: There's in the early sixteen hundreds, there was a captain 492 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: in Her Majesty's military when they settled I think it 493 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: was Virginia, and he was in violation of some law 494 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: and they found they think his remains buried in one 495 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: of the walls at Jamestown and it's got multiple gunshot 496 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,479 Speaker 1: wounds and he had been sentenced to death by firing squad, 497 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: so it goes all the way back as sixteen hundreds 498 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: for US. I don't know about the Brits, you know, 499 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: if they've ever used firing squads. I'm sure that they 500 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: probably did. They really they really like hanging are used 501 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: to in Great Britain. That was their thing. Great book 502 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: that's out there about the Queen's Executioner. I mentioned that 503 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: before too, But with Sigmund you know, he was like 504 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: one of I think five, is that right, Dave, in 505 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: the last maybe last fifteen years. Yeah, well, there maybe 506 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: one of three. I can't remember it. 507 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: Until I started looking into this, I wasn't even sure 508 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: of how many because I was thinking Gary Gilmore, that's 509 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: the name that came to mind. 510 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: You know. 511 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: He was convicted of two murders and demanded it be 512 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: carried out and that it be by firing squad, you know, 513 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: and they made what was the movie, The Executioner's Song 514 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: with Tommy Lee Jones, and it was a TV movie 515 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: and got a lot of attention. But since nineteen seventy seven, 516 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,959 Speaker 2: there's only been three other prisoners in the US that 517 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: have been executed by firing squad. Now there is another 518 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: one out and by the way, I think two of 519 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: those were Utah. One was a guy named Ronnie Lee 520 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: Gardner in twenty ten, and I didn't, you know, I 521 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: remembered him being put to death. 522 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: I did not remember it being firing squad squad. I know, 523 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: it's just so off of our radar. 524 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: Because we keep arguing over whether or not lethal injection 525 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: is the heinous crime committed on somebody who's been sentenced 526 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: to death. I'm gonna be honest with you, I think 527 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: waiting is the real crime. When you tell somebody you're 528 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: sentenced to death for your crimes and then you make 529 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: them wait, I think it's I think you're adding further 530 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 2: punishment to the victims as well, because you're making them wait. 531 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: This man, they were digmunt or Oh grief, Sigmund. You know, 532 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: the guy was forty three years old when he committed 533 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: this crime in two thousand and one, when he beat 534 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: two people to death with a baseball bat. He was 535 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: a forty three year old man. Well, now you know 536 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 2: we're talking twenty four years later, Joe, twenty four years later. 537 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: For twenty four years, everybody that knows what happened is 538 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 2: having to suffer through. Why are we feeding this guy 539 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, why do we have and this is another show, 540 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: another debate, But when he gets right down to it, 541 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: the victims here had no choice that they were going 542 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: to get their heads bashed in by a base ball bat. 543 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: They didn't have any choice. They didn't know when their 544 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: time was coming. But he's had time to fight for 545 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: his life even after admitting this haintus crime. So I 546 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: think that we need to put a cap on it 547 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: before we discuss lethal injection or firing squad or guillotine. 548 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: You know, I listen and listen. We've famously covered Dave 549 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: and boy. We got a lot of a lot of 550 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: responses from that episode here in Alabama. You know, we 551 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: have the nitrogen case, the first one. Now they've had 552 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: a couple of other ones that are used in various 553 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: places with the you know, the exposure to nitrogen not 554 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: nitrous oxide, but nitrogen gas in the death chamber, in 555 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: the death chamber, you know which. Now, Yeah, we have. 556 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: A solution, a good one. Here's what we do. We 557 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 2: have a doctor used propofol to put you to sleep. 558 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 2: It's a very gentle way to go to sleep. You 559 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: start counting at one hundred once they start the propofle 560 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 2: the little white milk. The milk starts coming down, and 561 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: they'll say, okay, Dave, start counting back from one hundred, 562 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: and you're like, why do you have that blanket on 563 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: your shoulder because you're going to be on my shoulder 564 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: by it before you get to ninety six. And okay, 565 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: one pam, They're out. They're out, They're asleep, chopped their 566 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: head off. 567 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: What do we care? 568 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: What do we care the means of the day, you know, 569 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 2: the way of doing it, our were, if our or 570 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 2: if we're really really worried about putting them to sleep 571 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: and causing problems, Okay, let's put them to sleep and 572 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 2: chop the head off. We're done. 573 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: Well, it would be the bug. Yeah, it would be sufficient. 574 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: And again I don't know that going to the guillotine, 575 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: for instance, as France had, I think they had their 576 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: last guillotining, you know, obviously in the last century there 577 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: was one public one. I think in the nineteen twenties 578 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: there was a thief you know that that they guillotine 579 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: back then, and they had become quite exquisite at doing this, 580 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, And this all goes back to, you know, 581 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: to the French Revolution, because this is a death machine. 582 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: You know that they that they've used and there's any 583 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: number of ways, you know, methodologies that are out there, 584 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: and this I think, I think for me what's going 585 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: to be very interesting, particularly in Enlightened. You know, you 586 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: had mentioned Coburger, which is brilliant because this is something 587 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: that's on the table right now. You know that they've 588 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: been talking about extensively. You talk about coburger with a 589 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: firing squad, I think that given the reaction and I'll 590 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: talk about this a little bit by the press at 591 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: Sigmund's execution just a few days ago, they talked about 592 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: how quick and sudden it was, and so just kind 593 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: of let me lay the picture out for you. They 594 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: you know, the first thing you have to do. I'm 595 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: talking about all these methodologies, the first thing you have 596 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: to do if you're going to do it. If you're 597 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: going to build a house, there are a few tools 598 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: that you need, right so you have to decide on 599 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: the tools that are going to be sufficient to the task. Well, 600 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: South Carolina actually settled on a three to oh eight 601 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: cartridge zero point three zero eight, which is a cartridge 602 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: that has been in use forever and ever. Well threeh 603 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: eight was used and what's referred to as the M fourteen, 604 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: which was kind of this gap weapon. Not many people 605 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: like it. Some special operations people still use it before 606 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: we start using the M sixteen, and they evolved into 607 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: the M four which we've used for years and years. Anyway, 608 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: they had to have a specific type of ammunition for this, 609 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: and I really want you to grab hold of this. 610 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: They're using what's referred to as a flangible round. And 611 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: this is a round. It's a Winchester round and my 612 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: suspicion is it's probably made by the Hornity Company, which 613 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: is famous for tactical rounds. They're great hunting rounds as 614 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: well for taking big game or medium sized game in 615 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: Big Game two. And so this flangible round, what happens, Dave, 616 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: is that when it is fired, instead of a standard 617 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: ball round like where you have a chunk of lead 618 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: that has a bof end design on it, which means 619 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: it comes to a point, it's kind of curved off 620 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: the back when it strikes the breastplate or the rib 621 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: cage of the intended target. This round and police snipers 622 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: use this so they don't kill anybody else in the 623 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: house or at a location. That round splinters it showers 624 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: the target with these little fragmented flesh sheets almost where 625 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: it kind of shatters. So when they took Sigmund and 626 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: they wrapped him to a chair, put a hood over him, 627 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: and their sandbags behind him. They have him seated. They've 628 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: got him strapped down, and you've got the audience there, 629 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: you know, in the death chamber, and they can't they 630 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: the audience cannot see the shooters. They're behind a partition, 631 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: but the barrel is poking out. So the order is 632 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: given and these guys it's a three man team. And 633 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: there's an old people have done this for years where 634 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: they talk about there are you know, if you had 635 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: a five man firing squad, one person will get a 636 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: blank and you didn't know the weapons were loaded by 637 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: somebody other than the shooter. Okay, that is, if this 638 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: starts going through in somebody's mind, they can say, well, 639 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't me, I had the blank round. Okay, they 640 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: didn't say anything about this. And think about it is 641 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: there were only three shooters, and all through these guys volunteered, Dave. 642 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: They were all members of the South Carolina Corrections Department. 643 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: And the assumption is is that they're all really good shots. 644 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: So what they did is they had a white a 645 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: white target on Sigmund's chest. Okay, now he's not going 646 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: to be seeing this. He's got a hood over his 647 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: head and he's strapped to a chair, and there's a 648 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: red mark in the center of this target, and allegedly 649 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: this red mark is directly over the heart. So actually 650 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: it would seem as though that he died instantaneously because 651 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, there is no more blood coursing through his body. 652 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: The heart has essentially become mincemeat, no longer functioning, and 653 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: he slips off into I don't know whatever is the 654 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: next life for him, but I do know this. There 655 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: were two people and a third as well, that had 656 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: expectations of their life that were never ever fully fulfilled 657 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: because of that one evening in two thousand and one 658 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: where he took a baseball bat and beat to death 659 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: the parents of the person that he said he loved. 660 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,919 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs