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Speaker 1: There are a lot of women in love with killers.

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Speaker 1: They don't just fall for these guys very often, they

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Speaker 1: go along with them in their crimes. They're they're brainwashed. Amazing.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how you pull that off. You look

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Speaker 1: somebody in the eye and say something that's absolutely not true,

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Speaker 1: and it's an extended light. And I'm not talking about

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Speaker 1: just playing the field and dating other people, talking about

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Speaker 1: being engaged in planning weddings. Wow, women are attracted to

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Speaker 1: killers inmates. I don't get it. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: how did the relationship start? Wow? We went out and

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Speaker 1: I was attracted to the plant. He had a very

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Speaker 1: imploring mind and contemplated everything and ornett reading people, and

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Speaker 1: I loved their conversation. She was very supportive of me

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Speaker 1: in the beginning of my art and of my career.

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Speaker 1: He was just wonderful, attentive, helpful, engaging. Did you see

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Speaker 1: this long term that he could be the one? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I did. This is bliss bliss. Well, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: one way of putting it. That's NBC News Dateline reporter

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Speaker 1: Andrea Canning. The so called killer fiance Patrick Frazy, who

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Speaker 1: bludgeoned his fiance dead Kelsey Barrett with a baseball bat

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Speaker 1: with their little baby girl in the next room. That's

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Speaker 1: one of his many other women on the side. And

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Speaker 1: that's not even the long time mistress Chrystal Lee Kenney. There,

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Speaker 1: Rodeo Queen, you were hearing another girlfriend, Vanessa Curie, talk

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Speaker 1: about her relationship with Patrick Frazy, the killer Fiance, that

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Speaker 1: he cared about her art and her interest. But now

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Speaker 1: take a listen to what she says thinks too. Attorney

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Speaker 1: started playing head games with me. How did he make

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Speaker 1: you feel about yourself with these so called head games. Well,

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Speaker 1: he would took me out a pedestal and then he

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Speaker 1: would tear me down. So he would listen to everything

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Speaker 1: I said to him, and he would would be ruing

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Speaker 1: kinds of and rual, helpful with advice, and then he

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Speaker 1: would he would use everything I told him and just

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Speaker 1: tear me down. But then he build me back up

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Speaker 1: again and tell me that he wanted to marry me

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Speaker 1: and that he saw me in a wedding dress and

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Speaker 1: he wanted my ratinger to get measure till that we

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Speaker 1: could get married. Why do you build me up just

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Speaker 1: to let me down? Well, at least he didn't slug

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Speaker 1: in the head with a baseball. Bet Vanessa, at least

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Speaker 1: you've got that going for you. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You're

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Speaker 1: hearing a little insight into why women are attracted to

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Speaker 1: killers inmates. I don't get it, but they are with me.

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Speaker 1: An all star panel. Daryl Cohen, renowned if It's attorney

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Speaker 1: out of City of Atlanta, Steve Lampley, detective and author

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Speaker 1: of Outside Your Door, Doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho alas joining

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Speaker 1: me right now from Beverly Hills. Doctor Michelle Dupre, medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and Levi Paige Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. First you, Levin. So, I've

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Speaker 1: got a trail of tears left behind by Patrick Frazy

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Speaker 1: Vanessa Curie. You just heard her talking about her love

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Speaker 1: for him, how he was so into her and interested

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Speaker 1: in her art. I don't think that's what he was

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Speaker 1: interested in. But he was even talking about getting fitted

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Speaker 1: for an engagement ring and a wedding dress. The duplicitest

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Speaker 1: nature of Patrick Frazy is amazing. I don't understand how

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Speaker 1: you pull that off. You look somebody in the eye

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Speaker 1: and say something that's absolutely not true. And it's an

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Speaker 1: extended light. And I'm not talking about just playing the

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Speaker 1: field and dating other people, talking about being engaged in

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Speaker 1: planning weddings. Wow, So what do we know about not

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Speaker 1: only this woman Vanessa Curie, but also the Rodeo Queen,

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Speaker 1: Crystal Lee Kenney. Well, Krista Lee Kenny. Nancy was a nurse.

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Speaker 1: She had gotten into a relationship with Patrick Frazy while

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Speaker 1: he was married to another woman in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: and had a relationship with him off and on until

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Speaker 1: the murder of Kelsey Barrett. Wait wait wait, wait, wait

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Speaker 1: wait wait wait? Did you say he was married to

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Speaker 1: another woman? You are correct, so he was married to

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Speaker 1: another woman when he met the Rodeo Queen. See, I

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Speaker 1: had my dates wrong. I thought he was with Kelsey

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Speaker 1: at the time he met Krystal Lee Kenny. Okay, correct me.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear all about it. Who's this woman

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Speaker 1: he was married too. We don't know much about her, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: We just know that he was married and that's when

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Speaker 1: she got into a relationship. I don't blame her. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. That's certainly not anything you want to

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Speaker 1: brag about at the grocery story. I'd hide under the

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Speaker 1: bed too if I had been married to Patrick. Frazy really,

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Speaker 1: But you know what it tells me, Nancy is the

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Speaker 1: mindset of these women who fall in love with killers.

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Speaker 1: There was a very famous prison study where women were

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Speaker 1: interviewed about the nature of the crimes the men had committed,

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Speaker 1: men that they had fallen in love with who were

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Speaker 1: behind bars, and most of the women claimed to not

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Speaker 1: know the men's rap sheet. They didn't know. They refused

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Speaker 1: to put their thoughts together about it. So the fact

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Speaker 1: that you fell in love with him while he's married

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Speaker 1: does not surprise me. It's a part of the whole

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Speaker 1: psychology of these women who are prison mate groupies. John

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Speaker 1: is sokin what you just said, because it seems akin

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Speaker 1: to me about when you know your husband is abusive

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Speaker 1: but you don't really want to confront it. You know,

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Speaker 1: you suspect he's cheating, but you don't want to know.

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Speaker 1: You don't like it if he yells at the children,

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Speaker 1: but you turn a blind eye to it. To drinking,

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Speaker 1: to drugging, tohurring, blah blah. You don't want to know

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Speaker 1: because it messes up your worldview and talk about tipping

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Speaker 1: the apple car. You know, if you confront it head on,

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Speaker 1: you got to break the whole relationship up. You've got

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Speaker 1: to move, you've got to get out of the house.

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Speaker 1: It's just a big, big catastrophe. So maybe it's easier

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Speaker 1: for some people to just turn a blind eye. Let's

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Speaker 1: take it one step further to Darrel Cohen, renowned defense

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Speaker 1: attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Daryl Cohen, how many

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Speaker 1: times have well, you were a prosecutor along with me

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Speaker 1: in inner City Atlanta, then you went to the dark

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Speaker 1: side defense. How many times and on either side of

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Speaker 1: the fence, Darrel, have you seen and typically it's a

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Speaker 1: man who is the ringleader and women follow blindly along.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the other way, you know, you remember Sante

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Speaker 1: and Kenneth Kimes, the mother son conteam that turned into killers.

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Speaker 1: The son followed along behind the mom. But usually I

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Speaker 1: see women following along in criminal behavior with the man.

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Speaker 1: How many times have you seen it's like they don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on, But there's no way they don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on, Daryl Cohen, Well, I've seen it

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Speaker 1: numerous times, Nancy, But there's an old adage that men

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Speaker 1: marry women because they like the way they are, and

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Speaker 1: women marry men because they want to change them. So

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Speaker 1: I think, hold on just one second, Cohen. I know

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Speaker 1: you got your JD, but I don't think you have

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Speaker 1: your MD and psychiatry. But thank you for the armchair psychotherapy.

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Speaker 1: Just FYI. Okay, Actually you're right about my husband. I

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Speaker 1: love to try to change them. So far it hasn't worked,

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Speaker 1: but I'm still working on it. Go ahead, please. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's just sort of part of it. I

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Speaker 1: think the other part of it is these women have

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Speaker 1: a very low self esteem and born in heaven. How

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Speaker 1: can you actually with a straight face, so when someone

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Speaker 1: is a killer as a matter of bay, and you

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Speaker 1: have low self esteem? Seriously, okay, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: what we know about the so called rodeo queen. Because

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Speaker 1: she was a rodeo queen. She actually won the title

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Speaker 1: Levi Page. I'll let you look that up, the title

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Speaker 1: at a rodeo. She's a nurse, a mom married at

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Speaker 1: one time Crystal Lee Kenney. Talk about low self esteem? Boy,

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Speaker 1: you really bet off more than you can chew Darryll Cohen. Listen,

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Speaker 1: Patrick Frazy is charged with killing Kelsey Barrett, his fiance

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Speaker 1: and mother of their child. The Woodland Park mom was

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Speaker 1: last seen on this Seafoy surveillance video on Thanksgiving Day.

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Speaker 1: Prosecutors say Frazy blindfolded Kelsey to smell candles and guess

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Speaker 1: the scent, and then beat her to death with a

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Speaker 1: baseball bat and burned her body. Prosecutors told the jury

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Speaker 1: this is a case of a cold, calculated manipulator, and

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Speaker 1: while showing a photo of Freezy, called him the face

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Speaker 1: of killer. We learned the trial hinges on cell phone records,

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Speaker 1: trace amounts of blood, evidence, and testimony from Idaho nurse

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Speaker 1: Crystal Lee Kenny without a body. Crystal is the state's

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Speaker 1: star witness. She told investigators she tried to kill Kelsey

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Speaker 1: three times at Patrick's request, but couldn't go through with it.

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Speaker 1: She says that's when Frazie took matters into his own

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Speaker 1: hands and she drove down from Idaho to clean up

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Speaker 1: a bloody mess in Kelsey's apartment. The defense is doing

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Speaker 1: everything it can to discredit Crystal and create reasonable doubts

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Speaker 1: since much of the evidence is circumstantial. You're hearing ABC

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Speaker 1: Denver seven reporter Jennifer Kovaleski, Daryl coh and low self

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Speaker 1: esteem Bethanie Marshall, don't know his rap sheet? What he

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Speaker 1: asked her to kill somebody three times? Cohen? What does

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Speaker 1: that have to do with low self esteem? And then

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Speaker 1: she comes back to the home, drives for four hours

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Speaker 1: and cleans up a murder scene. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: She was in love with them from a very young age.

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Speaker 1: Patti and Joe Rockstall say one of their employees, who

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Speaker 1: was Crystal Lee's best friend, told them that Lee and

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Speaker 1: Patrick Frazie had a relationship that began just after high school.

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Speaker 1: She was very vulnerable and I think she cared for

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Speaker 1: him and he took advantage of that. He was her

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Speaker 1: first love, I understand, and he had a hold on her.

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Speaker 1: The Rockstalls say they were told Lee, a nurse from

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Speaker 1: Idaho and mother, visited Frazie as recently as November, the

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Speaker 1: month his fiance, Kelsey Barrett vanished. They claimed their employee

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Speaker 1: says Frazy threatened Lee and she may have helped him

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Speaker 1: dispose of evidence. Do you know what the threats were?

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Speaker 1: Patrick told christ that little girls go missing off the

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Speaker 1: playground all the time. Crystal was so scared. He was

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Speaker 1: so angry that he said things that made Crystal think

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Speaker 1: he had killed before. So of course she's going to

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Speaker 1: be terrifying. Okay, so terrified she didn't go to police.

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Speaker 1: You were hearing our friend Nikki Batista at CBS News

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Speaker 1: she drove hours and hours to clean up a bloody,

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Speaker 1: drenched crime scene, Daryl Cohen. And you're actually saying it's

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Speaker 1: because of low self esteem. Did you say that? I'm

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Speaker 1: also saying, Nancy, that she drakes him kool aid. Oh,

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Speaker 1: now now you're changing your story the kool aid. I

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Speaker 1: guess that would be that he claimed Kelsey had abused

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Speaker 1: their baby. That is absolutely not true. Okay, Doctor Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 1: Psychoanas joining us out of Beverly Hills. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean by low self esteem? And how can these women

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Speaker 1: say their quote in love with killer? She had to

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Speaker 1: know he's a killer. Well, these women also have a

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Speaker 1: mixture of grandiosity. They feel that they are the only

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Speaker 1: important one in the man's life. And one of the

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Speaker 1: theories about why women fall in love with killers fits

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Speaker 1: right in line with the rodeo queen's motivation is that

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Speaker 1: these women fall in love with men who have brutal

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Speaker 1: animosity towards other women. So they take pleasure in the

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Speaker 1: fact that the man has raped a woman, tortured a woman,

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Speaker 1: killed a woman. It's as if it's like a sick

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Speaker 1: love triangle, and in loving the man who killed the

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Speaker 1: other woman is like getting the love rival out of

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Speaker 1: the way. So I think this was part of Crystal

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Speaker 1: Lee's motivation, is that she grew to hate the other woman.

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Speaker 1: She thought about killing the other woman, and when the

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Speaker 1: other woman was finally blushed into death, she cleaned up

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Speaker 1: the mess. She wanted that woman gone, She wanted her

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Speaker 1: out of the way. Upset she got such a sweet

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Speaker 1: deal to Stephen Lampley, detective author of Outside Your Door

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Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, Crystal Lee Kenney, the rodeo queen slash mistress

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Speaker 1: of killer fiance Patrick Fhrasey, says that she left clues

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Speaker 1: behind for detectives to find. I find that very hard

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Speaker 1: to believe. She wanted to detectives to figure it out

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Speaker 1: as she sat there for weeks on end watching the

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Speaker 1: six o'clock news. She could have just called him and

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Speaker 1: told them. She claims she secretly left some blood for

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Speaker 1: them to find, or a tooth of Kelsey's that was

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Speaker 1: knocked out of her mouth when Frazy beat her in

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Speaker 1: the head with a baseball bat with the baby next

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Speaker 1: door by the way. So I find it really hard

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Speaker 1: to believe her altruistic motives. Ye, Nancy, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know that I do either. Is it possible, Yes, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that. I didn't read that anywhere, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't see that on any news broadcasts that they've found

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Speaker 1: anything like that. But she wants to make herself look,

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Speaker 1: as she said, altruistic. And I did leave this so

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Speaker 1: they could find him, but I don't they ever found anything. Actually,

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Speaker 1: they did find blood. The brother of Kelsey, Bareth, came

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Speaker 1: over and he said, this must be what you're talking about, Steve.

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Speaker 1: He said, he walked in. Everything looked fine and perfectly

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Speaker 1: in order, just like Kelsey would have left it. And

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to get with you after

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Speaker 1: our program, doctor Bethany, because I can't leave the house

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Speaker 1: unless the kitchen is clean. There's nothing in the sink,

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Speaker 1: the beds are made up. I'm sure there's something really

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Speaker 1: wrong with that. But Kelsey left everything and needs a pen.

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Speaker 1: Except there were some cinnamon rolls she had just made

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Speaker 1: and they were sitting out on the kitchen counter uncovered,

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Speaker 1: and everybody knows that a bread will dry up if

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Speaker 1: you leave it out just sitting there in the air.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like her. But he sat down on

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Speaker 1: the commode and he saw on the lip of the commode,

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Speaker 1: is my understanding, some blood. He saw that. He immediately

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Speaker 1: called police and they did find one of Kelsey's teeth.

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Speaker 1: But at the very beginning, Steve, nobody could see anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Chrystal Lee Kenney did a pretty good job

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Speaker 1: to doctor Michelle Dupree joining me, medical examiner and author

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Speaker 1: of an incredible piece of work, Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

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Speaker 1: I think every single practicing criminal lawyer, what kind of

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Speaker 1: force would it take to knock somebody's tooth out of

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Speaker 1: their head with a baseball bat? And what would that

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Speaker 1: do to the person's skull. I'm talking about the mom

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Speaker 1: Kelsey barrat, and so that could be a devastating injury.

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Speaker 1: The force that's needed to do that with the baseball

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Speaker 1: bat is really significant. The damage to the skull could

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Speaker 1: be devastating it, I mean it could be fatal. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it could be such a skull fracture that it would

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Speaker 1: actually be fatal. You know, I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how much force that would require because people get hit

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Speaker 1: in the head all the time. It happens in sports,

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Speaker 1: it happens at work. But I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: the amount of force, how hard he had to swing,

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Speaker 1: like he was sitting at home run on Kelsey said,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to Denver CBS four reporter Rick Salinger.

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Speaker 1: It was in her Woodland Park condominium that the mother,

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Speaker 1: who worked as a pilot and flooded instructor, was believed murdered.

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Speaker 1: Crystal Lee, the other party to this love triangle, testified

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Speaker 1: this week that Patrick Frasey admitted killing Barrett with a

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Speaker 1: baseball bat. Law enforcement agents searched Phrase's florescent ran several

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Speaker 1: times and found three wooden baseball bats. They also located

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Speaker 1: part of a tooth. It was beneath some plastic put

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Speaker 1: over a spot where Crystallie said she believed Barrett's body

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Speaker 1: was burned. Lee's father testified that his daughter was at

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Speaker 1: her own home in Idaho on that day, where they

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Speaker 1: had dinner. He said he is familiar with Phrasie's name

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Speaker 1: from many years ago, saying I told her I didn't

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Speaker 1: think that I liked him based on what she told

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Speaker 1: me about him. Convincing the jurors that Crystallie told the

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Speaker 1: truth is critical for prosecutors. Late this afternoon, a long

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Speaker 1: time older friend of Phrasie testified that Phrasie was asking

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Speaker 1: questions and dropping hints that Kelsey Bareth could disappear. Oh,

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Speaker 1: dropping hints that Kelsey Bareth could disappear. And it makes

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Speaker 1: me wonder to doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho Allen's joining me

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Speaker 1: out of LA did he want her dad? Because, as

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Speaker 1: you just heard, she was independent. She bought that town

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Speaker 1: home all on her own with no help from him.

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Speaker 1: She had learned and studied and gone to school to

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Speaker 1: be a pilot. She was raising her child on her own.

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Speaker 1: I doubt he paid a whole lot of child support.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Kimani's living with his mom for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: So reality, did he not want her alive because he

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Speaker 1: didn't want her any more because she was independent, didn't

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Speaker 1: Nadium Or You've got all these other women kind of

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Speaker 1: hanging on his every word. Well, Nancy, you just put

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Speaker 1: your finger on it, the two words child support. What

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Speaker 1: is an independent woman going to do even if she

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Speaker 1: had her own money, she had her pilot's license, she

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Speaker 1: had a condo. But she is also smart and smart

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Speaker 1: enough to get him to step up, pay child support

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Speaker 1: and be a dad. None of these other women are

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Speaker 1: requiring anything of him. They're hanging on him, They're doing

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Speaker 1: whatever he wants them to do. The Rodeo Queen is

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Speaker 1: even flirting with the idea of killing her love rival.

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Speaker 1: These are all passive, passive women under his control. But

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Speaker 1: the victim here actually was autonomous, and I wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: surprised if she was either asking for child support, asking

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Speaker 1: for him to visit the baby, asking for him to

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Speaker 1: step up and be a man in some way, and

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Speaker 1: if he wasn't used to doing that. Matt, he look

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Speaker 1: with his mother, This is an overgrown baby. This is

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Speaker 1: not a man who really wanted any kind of responsibility

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Speaker 1: in his life. And speaking of his mother, not to

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Speaker 1: blame her, but according to report, she stood by and

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Speaker 1: watched while Kelsey Barris's body was burned. Of course she

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Speaker 1: wasn't on trial. Don't know the truth of that, but hey,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Christa Lee Kenny, the Rodeo Queen. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of women in love with killers. Crime

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, I never had that before. You realize,

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Speaker 1: with all due respect, that a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: you're much Oh. Yes, I've heard it before many times.

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Speaker 1: If I just say to you, why, what do you say?

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Speaker 1: My answer to that is, I fell in love with him,

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Speaker 1: and it's actively and it's quite a long journey that

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Speaker 1: led me to there, and now I'm very happy. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever had sex with Eric? No, your marriage has

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Speaker 1: never been consummate. Now when you see Eric that you

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Speaker 1: allowed to kission, we can hog and kiss on the

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Speaker 1: way out and hold hands during the visit, and the

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Speaker 1: holding of the hands during the visit is everything. I

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Speaker 1: can't offer her most of the things that another husband

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Speaker 1: can in terms of being with her physically and being

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Speaker 1: able to to hold her in that sense. What I

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Speaker 1: can offer her is unconditional and complete devotion and love.

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Speaker 1: She is everything. Oh you're hearing our friends at ABC

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Speaker 1: speaking to the wife of Eric Menandez, the killer who

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Speaker 1: killed his own parents. That's Tammy Menendez, who says she's

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Speaker 1: happy with Hanna holding Okay, well, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: What's the problem? Twelve shots in the middle of Beverly

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Speaker 1: Hills on a Sunday night, and no one calls. The

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Speaker 1: police were waiting at the house, no one shows him,

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Speaker 1: and I still can't believe it. I'm sitting on the

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Speaker 1: stairs afterwards, thinking the police are going to be there

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Speaker 1: in seconds. I think that rolling patroling, and people, many

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Speaker 1: many people didn't hear the shots. Many neighbors came in

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Speaker 1: and said they heard all these shots, but nobody called

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Speaker 1: because I just figured this is Beverly Hills. This doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen in Beverly Hills. Oh well it did. The Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers gunned down their parents. You're hearing not only the

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Speaker 1: nim on one call, but a neighbor. Now to take

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Speaker 1: a listen to what Tammy Menendez says about her relationship

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Speaker 1: with Eric Menendez, how it began with a letter and

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Speaker 1: developed from there. During the visit, there's no just holding

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Speaker 1: hands and you can kiss when you come into the

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Speaker 1: visiting room and and you leave. You know, is she crazy?

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Speaker 1: Is she nuts? You know? I get all that, and

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Speaker 1: so it has been a very emotional experience. The only

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Speaker 1: one that supports me as my mother and his family

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Speaker 1: is supportive. But other than that, it is very difficult.

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Speaker 1: I guess it is very very difficult. You're hearing Timmy

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Speaker 1: Menendez speaking to her friends at NBC Dateline. So okay,

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Speaker 1: here's my next question, do you, doctor Bethany Marshall, because

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Speaker 1: I really need to shrink on this one. He's convicted

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Speaker 1: both both brothers are convicted of murdering their parents. Of course,

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Speaker 1: they claimed the dad had molested him, although that was

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Speaker 1: never proven. I don't know what their theory is about

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Speaker 1: why they killed their mother, kitty, but I mean brutally

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Speaker 1: gunned them down. I think the mom was trying to

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Speaker 1: crawl away and they kept shooting her. How can you

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Speaker 1: not know this? It was on every TV screen and

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Speaker 1: on every newspaper, doctor Bethany Marshall, How can you turn

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Speaker 1: away from that? It's called disavowal. It's when you see

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Speaker 1: something but you choose to not put your thoughts together

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Speaker 1: about it. A lot of these women who fall in

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Speaker 1: love with these killers behind bars have a history of

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Speaker 1: violence in their own family. I don't know if this

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Speaker 1: woman did, but for some reason, because the parents love

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Speaker 1: them and were violent with them. The idea of power, sex, love,

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Speaker 1: and violence are all fused and confused. They're all melded

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Speaker 1: together in some way. Now. I once interviewed a woman

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Speaker 1: who was a part of a group of women who

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Speaker 1: were prison groupies, and they would wait for the men

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Speaker 1: to come out of prison and do something that they

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Speaker 1: called touching down. And I said, so she with this woman,

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Speaker 1: Missy said, well, when my boyfriend comes out, he's going

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Speaker 1: to touch down. And I'm like, what's touching down? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's the first time he has had sex since all

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Speaker 1: the years he's been behind bars, as if he's not

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Speaker 1: having sex behind bars, right, So there's this fantasy of

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Speaker 1: the man being completely sexually faithful and not ever with

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Speaker 1: anybody else because they're behind bars. So to Daryl Cohen's

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Speaker 1: low self esteem part, some of these women feel important

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Speaker 1: because they know where the man is all the time,

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Speaker 1: and they have the fantasy of the man being pure,

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Speaker 1: chaste and only available to them and a killer. But

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Speaker 1: it goes beyond that. Daryl Cohen a former prosecutor now

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Speaker 1: defense attorney throughout America based in Atlanta. Daryl Cohen, they

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00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: don't just fall for these guys very often, they go

399
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: along with them in their crimes. They're they're brain washed.

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Speaker 1: It's beyond belief. They do what they want to do,

401
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: they do what they think they should do because he

402
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: has them and there's power. I mentioned kool aid before.

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Speaker 1: This has happened before, it will continue to happen. There

404
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: are certain women and certain men that have those characteristics

405
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Speaker 1: and traits. I'm not a psychologist. I'm just a realist,

406
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Speaker 1: and I see what happens. It makes no logical sense,

407
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: but it is what it is, and we have to

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00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: deal with it. And they deal with it. They not

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00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: only go along with it, they're part of it. They're

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Speaker 1: a meshed in the DNA. If you will, Levi Pays.

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Emmy Memindez actually wrote

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Speaker 1: a book and she claimed that she regretted marrying him,

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Speaker 1: that it was hard the distance between her and her

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Speaker 1: husband behind bars, and she played the victim. But as

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Speaker 1: you said, Nancy, she had to know all of what

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Speaker 1: he was accused of doing, he was convicted of doing.

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Speaker 1: Why would she do this in the first place. There's

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Speaker 1: actually a syndrome called Bonnie and Clyde syndrome where they

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00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: actually get a thrill out of dating inmates because these

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Speaker 1: people live such lonely lives. And I have read dozens

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Speaker 1: of letters of people contacting various high profile inmates and

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00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: a lot of them they do say in these letters

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Speaker 1: that they write to these inmates, I'm lonely, I'm bored,

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Speaker 1: and I'm writing you and I hope that you write back.

425
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: And many of them say I've written you many times

426
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: and you haven't written me back yet. And the common

427
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: theme is they're lonely and they do this to get

428
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: a thrill from dating behind bars or writing someone behind bars.

429
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: It's accused of evil crimes. You know. That really leads

430
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: me to another issue. Why these women are dating killers

431
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: or inmates. I guess you can call it dating. To me,

432
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: it's more of a glorified pinpal. But they choose to

433
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: say that they're dating. You know, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst

434
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: joining us out of LA People do that all the time.

435
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: Pretend they have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. They go, oh, no,

436
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: that's not a Google image. Well that's my girlfriend in Canada,

437
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: but there's not one. It's like these women really think

438
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: they're having a relationship. You know, Nancy, that's a fascinating point.

439
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: Out of all of the articles I've read, that is

440
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: the one point no one has made. You're absolutely correct.

441
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: They impet the relationship with more meaning than is really.

442
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: They are just like stalkers, you know, the stalker. Imagine

443
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: there's a real relationship with a victim, and there's no

444
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: real relationship with a victim. I have this high level

445
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: executive that came into therapy a few months ago. She

446
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: makes four hundred thousand dollars a year, she's a single mom,

447
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: she's successful. She came in ashamed and told me that

448
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: she had just given ten thousand dollars to somebody online.

449
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: She'd only known him for a month, a month, and

450
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: she gave him ten thousand dollars within a month. She

451
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: became convinced that she loved this man and that he

452
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: loved her. And it's like I had to deprogram her

453
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: from the relationship and this was just probably some person

454
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: in Nigeria or Alaska somewhere, but she thought it was

455
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: a real relationship. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why would

456
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: anyone marry America's most notorious serial killer. That's the intriguing

457
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: question being raised by the new movie, in which zac

458
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: Efron plays the monster Ted Bundy. The movie features scenes

459
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: involving Bundy's wife, Carol Anne Boone, media is convicted his

460
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: Dame Court. The real life. Bundy and Boone first became

461
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: friends when they worked together in Washington State in nineteen

462
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: seventy four. Bundy actually proposed to Carol Anne while she

463
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: was testifying on his behalf at the penalty phase of

464
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: his murder trial in Florida. That was all that was

465
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: required for them to be officially married in the state

466
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: of Florida. Author Stephen Mishow visited Bundy numerous times on

467
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: death row. He says he helped arrange the surprising courtroom proposal,

468
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: even procuring rings from Tiffany and a wedding outfit for Bundy.

469
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: I went to the men's store and bought ted a

470
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: pair of khakis and a bow tie and some argyle

471
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: socks so he could look spiffy for the for the occasion.

472
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: Bundy and Boone even had a daughter, the result of

473
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: a moment of cloak and dagger intimacy. In Carol told

474
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: me that there were two ways to have sex. One

475
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: was to sneak into the bathroom and the other one

476
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: was behind the water cooler. A recent Netflix documentary featured

477
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: audio of her speaking about how the baby was conceived.

478
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone believed Bundy's claims of innocence for many years.

479
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: That's our friend Jim Murray at Inside Edition talking about

480
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: Carol and Boone marrying Ted Bundy. He proposed in his

481
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: death penalty phase the serial killer. I mean, she was

482
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: sitting in court, she heard all the evidence leave I page,

483
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: and she still accepted the proposal. So, Nancy, this was

484
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: the murder of kimberly Lay, a seventh grader that he

485
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: was on trial for murdering. This was the penalty phase

486
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: where he was going to be sentenced to death, and

487
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: he called Carol to the stand and asked her to

488
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: marry him. She said yes, and there was a public

489
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: notary there and that's all that's needed in the state

490
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: of Florida, and they were married. Coincidentally, it's the same

491
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: day that the jury recommended that he get the death

492
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: penalty for murdering that twelve year old girl. Okay, let

493
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: me understand something. In front of the jury when he

494
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: called she was called to the stand, he proposed, yes,

495
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: you are correct. Oh, well apparently that didn't work. But

496
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: I don't understand too, Doctor Bethany Marshall, what can a

497
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: woman who pursues a relationship with an inmate or a

498
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: killer behind bars really expect. What do they get out

499
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: of it? Well, you know, if you're married to somebody

500
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: behind bars, you know where they are all the time.

501
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 1: You don't have to keep calling and texting and being

502
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: afraid that they're out with another woman. You don't have

503
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: to feel that they're dating behind your back. You don't

504
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: have to wonder if they're on a business trip and

505
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: they'll never come home. These women have the fantasy of

506
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: the man being endlessly available to them. That's one part

507
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: of it. As we keep saying, they refused to put

508
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: their thoughts together about the nature of the crime. But

509
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's wife, what it sounds like to me is

510
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: that she kind of injected herself into the notoriety of

511
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: the crime, like she thought this was exciting. She had

512
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: her fifteen minutes of fame. He was in front of

513
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: a courtroom, and maybe to her that was like being

514
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: a star on stage, and that this was very emotionally

515
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: gratifying because she felt he was famous, therefore she would

516
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: be famous too too. Doctor Michelle de Pre, medical examiner,

517
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I guess that the

518
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy cases, you know, textbook for medical examiners in

519
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: these cases women were strangled, they were raped, but not

520
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: only that, they were abused post mornum. He would bathe

521
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: their bodies in the bathtub, fix their hair and their makeup,

522
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: dismember them, have sex with their body parts. Doctor Michelle,

523
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: how often do you see abuse of a corpse financer?

524
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: You sadly more often than you would think. I think

525
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: I've probably had five or six cases, and that's really

526
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: probably the average for most people who have been in

527
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: the business for twenty or so years. Let me just

528
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: guess where all of the victims of abuse of a

529
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: corpse and that's typically would you agree, doctor Michelle dupree

530
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: having sex with a dead body. Yes, usually it is,

531
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: but it can also be other things. That can be

532
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: inserting objects, it can be biding, it can be all

533
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: sorts of other things. So that is typically what we

534
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: think of, and we see a mixture. Well, you know,

535
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: if you ask doctor Bethany Marshall, I can guarantee you

536
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: she will say that biding a corpse and inserting things

537
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: is you euphemistically put it. That's certainly putting perfume on

538
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: the pig is sex related. Okay, But doctor Michelle dupre

539
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: let me guess, Well, remember statism, missus sex drive. What

540
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: statism is a perversion and it is related to the

541
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: sex drive. So yes, it's a perverse sexual pleasure in

542
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: biting a dead body, it's sexual. I always wait to

543
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: see how many minutes you make it before you say

544
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: sato mascissistic sex. But okay, this time, you know you

545
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: almost made it through the whole hour to dodgor Michelle Duprie.

546
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: All of the victims of abuse of corpse, who are they? Women?

547
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: Not all of them, Nancy, the vast majority are, but

548
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: men are also raped and are often abuse sexually. Afterwards, Well,

549
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: what you're telling me that one of the five victims

550
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: that you examined and there had been abuse of a course,

551
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: one was a man. Yes, I am saying that. Okay,

552
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: Well you just certainly taught me something I did not know,

553
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: and I kind of wish I didn't know. So I

554
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: can think about that tonight as I drift off to sleep.

555
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: So you were hearing this woman who access a proposal

556
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: on the witness stand, but she's not the only one.

557
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. For many who would look

558
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: at Richard Ramier's in the eye and say he's the

559
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: face of evil and yet you look at him and

560
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: you see man of your dreams. Yes, who needs glasses here?

561
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: I can't help the way the world looks at him.

562
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: They don't know him the way I do. And the

563
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: next day, Dorene walked down the aisle, albeit at a

564
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: prison aisle, with her groom. Here's the couple and her

565
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: response at being the new missus Richard Ramirez. It's feel wonderful.

566
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm so happy. I'm I'm so thrilled, very proud, and

567
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: a little belief that that the bulk of the day

568
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: is over and just hopefully I can enjoy the rest

569
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: of my day in peace with Richard's family and think

570
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: about the importance of what happened today. Okay, she sounds

571
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: like she's highly sedated, but sadly she's not. That's k

572
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: r O and TV four reporter Vicky Levicus talking to

573
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: Dorene Leoi, who married the night stalker Richard Ramirez. Stephen Lampley,

574
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: detective author of Outside Your Door. He's Richard Ramirez. He's

575
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: one of America's most painless serial killers. He had a

576
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: relatively long killing spree. And by the way, this was,

577
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: as my understanding, this was not his first wife in prison.

578
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: By the way, Oh dear Lord in heaven, they attract

579
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: more than one woman behind bars, you know, doctor Bethany Marshall,

580
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: I really need a shrink right now now. According to reports,

581
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: killer dad Chris Watts gets letters and even risque photos

582
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: behind bars from women. What do you make of these

583
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: women sending love letters? And do you think inmates should

584
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: be allowed to receive them? Nancy, I do not think

585
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: inmates should be allowed to receive them because to me,

586
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: it's like the men are still preying on society from

587
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: behind bars. But we keep thinking about why where a

588
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: woman's fall in love with a killer behind bars? And

589
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, they confuse power, sex and love.

590
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: The fact that the guy is aggressive actually feels like

591
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: a form of love. Sometimes. In the case of Richard Ramirez,

592
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: one of the wives had a great deal of animosity

593
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: and aggression towards women, so in this case she took

594
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: secret pleasure in the crimes. There's the fantasy that you

595
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: always know where the man is, that he's available, And

596
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: there's also this common thread amongst all women who fall

597
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: in love with inmates that the man is going to

598
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: be sexually faithful, that just because of the man's behind

599
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: bars means he's not masturbating, he's not having sex with

600
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: other men, he's not engaging in sexual activity. He's just

601
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: being chased and available to the woman. And it is

602
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: a very very disturbing missappraisal of the situation. But that's

603
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: how most of these prison groupies feel. Dude, Darrell Cohen,

604
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: you and I have been in so many jails in

605
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: and out. How do they manage to get conjugal visits?

606
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: They're illegal in mess jails, Nancy, as soon as that

607
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: was being spoken about, I was thinking myself behind the

608
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: watercooler in the bathroom. I don't know. I have never

609
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: been able to figure that out because normally the prison

610
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: guards are much more attentive, especially towards someone who has

611
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: been convicted of murder. So I don't know, but I

612
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: guess where there's a will, there's a way. And on

613
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: that highly scholarly comment, since there's really no explanation, I

614
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: will take my leave because I am a JD, not

615
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: an MD with a degree in psychiatry. Okay, so the

616
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: beat goes out. And remember it's not just men. You

617
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe all the love letters in marriage proposals that

618
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 1: Jody Airis gets behind bars, okay, Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye, Frank,