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Speaker 1: What oh boy, Yeah, you know what that might have been,

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Speaker 1: that might have been over the line, That might have

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Speaker 1: been over the line, Robert, Yeah, my god, I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's some government agency we need to report me

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Speaker 1: to for saying that.

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Speaker 2: Now I didn't know. Yeah, man, Robert, go to hell.

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving that was that was a step too far.

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Speaker 3: Huh, well you use that language ever?

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Speaker 1: Well years, what's wrong with you? We'll let it that

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Speaker 1: all out and uh, you at home can imagine what what?

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Speaker 1: What horrible thing I said? What cancellable thing I said?

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Speaker 1: That will get leaked seven years from now.

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Speaker 2: Please replace it with you know, embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is.

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Speaker 3: Garters, Matt Leeve got a fresh haircut. It's gonna be

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Speaker 3: a good day.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be a good day talking about Joseph Mangola.

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Speaker 1: As usual, Robert forgot once.

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Speaker 2: Again, we're talking about something that's going to make everyone sad,

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Speaker 2: and I like to think that is, you know, a

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Speaker 2: guest of this podcast. I'm here to, you know, try

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Speaker 2: to lighten the mood. So, along with Jargia, I brought

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Speaker 2: this Excuse me, I don't want to talk about me.

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Speaker 2: I just want to talk about happy things, just happy things,

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Speaker 2: all right. That's so I'm gonna bust that out every time.

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Speaker 4: A little Dicky, Yeah, that's it's like Little Dicky did

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Speaker 4: like a Tommy style concept album, but about Josephs together.

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Speaker 1: Oh dear god, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Wow, oh boy, percentage your listeners who uh do not

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Speaker 2: like grievously offended? Yes, yes, and that was for them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I got a new I got a new kind

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Speaker 1: of offense recently where somebody was like, it's messed up

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Speaker 1: that your show is called Behind the Bastards and you

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Speaker 1: call the bad people bastards because that that's hurtful to

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Speaker 1: people who were born out of woodlock. And oh yes,

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Speaker 1: people don't use that word that more any like that.

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Speaker 1: That's just not a thing that we do well. When

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Speaker 1: I hear someone say bastards, I don't think, ah, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is this is someone referring to a person born

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Speaker 1: outside the bounds of holy matrimony.

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Speaker 2: Right, this is you know. I feel like language evolves.

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Speaker 1: Is the thing, Robert.

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Speaker 3: I raise your people being offended over the word bastards

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Speaker 3: to the cocoachanell apologists in my DMS, like, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Boy, if you did that, I saw it. I saw it.

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Speaker 1: I hope by now the liver King episodes will be dropping,

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Speaker 1: So I hope you've got liver king apologists in there too,

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Speaker 1: being like, look, man, a lot of people take fifteen

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars in steroids every single month.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, what's wrong with that?

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Speaker 3: Singering from you? Definitely gentlemen, m M.

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Speaker 1: Dudes speaking of a dude. Joseph Mangela definitely was a

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Speaker 1: dude and his wife Irene had been married just over

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Speaker 1: a month when Germany invaded Poland after carrying out a

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Speaker 1: false flag attack to justify said aggression. World War two,

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Speaker 1: you know, starts, and Joseph is over the moon about it.

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Speaker 1: He believes the war is the quote last desperate fight

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Speaker 1: of the German nation, by which he meant that without

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Speaker 1: a cleansing genocidal war to clear out large swaths of farmland,

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Speaker 1: Germans would be doomed to interbreeding and genetic collapse.

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Speaker 2: God damn it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah at he buys into it. You know, he's all

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Speaker 1: full throated now because he's got some health issues. It's

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Speaker 1: not until nineteen forty one and the start of Operation

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Speaker 1: Barbarossa that Mengla actually sees combat in Ukraine. His posting

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Speaker 1: is the infamous ss Viking Division, which is spelled Wiking,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna call it Wiking because that makes them

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Speaker 1: sound silly and they are terrible war criminals.

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Speaker 5: So the Vikings was where we where we scaled, where

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Speaker 5: we scale, we Wikings, we scare we Wiking. So the

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Speaker 5: Viking Division is made up of Germanic peoples, mostly from

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Speaker 5: outside of Germany. There is like a German battalion or

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Speaker 5: whatever in there, but a lot of them are from Belgium, Norway,

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Speaker 5: a lot of them are Norwegian dent people from Denmark,

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Speaker 5: from France, from Holland. They're basically like Arians from all

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Speaker 5: the places the Germans have conquered. And the actions of

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Speaker 5: the Wiking Division are you would call them controversial to

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Speaker 5: this day. The unit fought exclusively in the East during

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Speaker 5: the worst atrocities of the Second World War, and they

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Speaker 5: participated in several of those atrocities. But because the membership

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Speaker 5: is largely foreign, there has been a lot of effort

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Speaker 5: dedicated to minimizing the culpability of the volunteers. A good

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Speaker 5: example would be this ABC Australia article about a Finnish

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Speaker 5: government report that concluded the fourteen or so finish volunteers

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Speaker 5: in the unit likely committed war crimes. The report notes

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Speaker 5: accurately that the Finns agreed to supply soldiers for the

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Speaker 5: Elite Division after their brutal war with the USSR, which

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Speaker 5: is true enough, but check out how they word this Reluctantly.

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Speaker 5: Finns complied and covertly recruited the first group of four

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Speaker 5: hundred SS volunteers to be sent for training. The vast

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Speaker 5: majority of them had no ideological sympathies with the Nazi regime.

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Speaker 5: The report said Finns were above all interested in fighting

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Speaker 5: against the Soviet Union due to their brutal experiences in

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Speaker 5: the Winter War. In this way, the starting point for

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Speaker 5: Finn's involvement was different compared to most other countries joining

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Speaker 5: SS foreign Volunteer units.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, didn't. They didn't have a choice. You know,

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Speaker 1: just wound up in that SS unit on accident. You're

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Speaker 1: stumbling home from the bar, you had a couple of rounds,

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Speaker 1: and then you wind up in the SS. It happens

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Speaker 1: to all of us.

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Speaker 2: You find a friend where you've got a mutual hatred

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Speaker 2: of this other dude, and he happens also hate every

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Speaker 2: Jew who's ever lived, and you're like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: you turn the.

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Speaker 1: Good with the bad. Yeah, and it's one of those

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Speaker 1: like there's a movie coming out right now that's about

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Speaker 1: like some Finnish guy murdering Nazis, And there's a concern

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Speaker 1: some people have is like, are they just going to

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Speaker 1: kind of whitewash the fact that an awful lot of

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Speaker 1: Fins were completely on board with the Nazis? Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: will now, and obviously you can note that like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Finns had just suffered this devastating invasion from the USSR,

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Speaker 1: that they had no fault in, and that that would

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Speaker 1: make things complicated. They're in a difficult geopolitical situation. But

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Speaker 1: you don't need to whitewash these SS guys, especially when

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Speaker 1: you read passages like this from David Marwell's book. Early

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Speaker 1: in the morning of July second, Sst. And dart and

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Speaker 1: Fua Wackerl, the beloved commander of the division's West Lynn Regiment,

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Speaker 1: was shot and killed by a sniper near the village

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Speaker 1: of Sloweitka. In the days that followed Wackerl's death, members

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Speaker 1: of the Wyking Division carried out acts of extreme violence,

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Speaker 1: claiming an estimated several thousand Jews as victims. Strue present's

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Speaker 1: evidence from the records of various German Army units in

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Speaker 1: the area, quoting, for example, the diary of a Lieutenant Kaysburg,

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Speaker 1: with the two hundred and ninety fifth Engineer's Battalion firing

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Speaker 1: everywhere it crackles, the SS bumps off anyone they get

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Speaker 1: their hands on. It is horrific. The chief of staff

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Speaker 1: of the fourth Army Corps absorbed that individual members of

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Speaker 1: the Wiking Division were seen hunting for Jews the war

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Speaker 1: diary of a unit in the area, and noted that

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Speaker 1: the SS was indiscriminately shooting Russian soldiers and civilians in

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Speaker 1: large numbers. A member of the supply unit of the division,

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Speaker 1: Hans Gunther Otto, in a sworn affidavit after the war,

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Speaker 1: claimed that his unit had been informed that Wackel had

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Speaker 1: been killed by a Jew and that their participation in

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Speaker 1: the revenge actions marked the beginning of the unit's participation

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Speaker 1: in the extermination of the Jews. Otto described an order

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Speaker 1: that was read to his unit after Wackerl's death. The

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Speaker 1: order said that we were no longer held accountable for

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Speaker 1: the killing of any Jews we could get hold of,

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Speaker 1: and that we could indeed shoot any Jew we saw.

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Speaker 1: So this is who Mangola serves with when he does

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Speaker 1: his combat tours, great good influences. Yeah, yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: like that's going to moderate his natural shittiness a lot. Now,

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Speaker 1: we unfortunately know very little about the specific details of

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Speaker 1: what Mangola did with the Viking Division. He's there for

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Speaker 1: close to two years, but he is present with them

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Speaker 1: through one of the most bloody periods in the history

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Speaker 1: of human warfare. Given his professional expertise at identifying Jewish

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Speaker 1: ancestry and the fact that his division is hunting Jews,

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Speaker 1: there's a pretty good chance he was consulted on who

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Speaker 1: to kill right on doomy massacre this village or not right,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's pretty good chance he was enrollved in.

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Speaker 2: But they would just like wheel Mangla out to look

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Speaker 2: at every villager and just be like point out which

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Speaker 2: ones you think as the most Jewy? Yeah, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's my favorite thing to do. That's what they do.

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Speaker 1: So the first massacre by the Viking Division was carried

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Speaker 1: out a town at a prison in a town called Zulusiv,

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Speaker 1: where the retreating Soviet army had massacred about six hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty prisoners on their way out. When the SS

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Speaker 1: discovered the bodies, they and their Ukrainian allies slaughtered more

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Speaker 1: than a thousand Jews in the area. One survivor later

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Speaker 1: recalled the SS people stood around the pit, and from

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Speaker 1: time to time they ordered someone, especially men with beards

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Speaker 1: and sidelocks, to come out and kneel in front of them.

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Speaker 1: With sadistic pleasure. They hit their victim until he lay

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Speaker 1: unconscious on the ground, and they kicked them back into

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Speaker 1: the pit. Sometimes family members tried to help the poor people,

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Speaker 1: but then they often made their fate even worse. Some

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Speaker 1: were taken out of the grave and beaten to death

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Speaker 1: with unimaginable brutality. Yeah, Joey mengs everybody, this is his

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Speaker 1: baptism of fire. This is kind of known as seen

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Speaker 1: by historians who study him as like this is what

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Speaker 1: go This is what takes us from the Joseph Mangela,

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Speaker 1: who's like doing science that's kind of racist but is

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Speaker 1: relativetively mid for its day, to the Joseph Mangla who

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Speaker 1: is capable of doing the things he's going to do

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Speaker 1: at Auschwitz. Right, Yeah, there's a process of brutalization. You

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Speaker 1: can't get a more brutalizing environment than being part of

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Speaker 1: this SS division.

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Speaker 2: Of the Nazi or the Jew hunting Italian in the

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Speaker 2: entire Nazi Army, one of the worst units in terms

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Speaker 2: of war crimes. Yeah, I mean, I don't like him. No,

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 1: They don't sound nice to me. I'm not a fan. No.

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Speaker 1: In a single week, the SS Wiking Division was responsible

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Speaker 1: for between four and seven thousand murders of Jewish Ukrainians.

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Speaker 1: They're often just kind of killing every person they can

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Speaker 1: in a city or a town that they wind up

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Speaker 1: billeted in. It's possible that Mangola participated directly and at

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Speaker 1: least some of the killing. We simply don't know. Our

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Speaker 1: records of his performance only detail his combat actions, and

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Speaker 1: he performed well against partisans, winning an Iron Cross second

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Speaker 1: class and then first class for pulling comrades out of

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Speaker 1: a burning tank. Mangola provided field medicine through a number

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Speaker 1: of heavy combat actions. In the first five months in

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Speaker 1: the field, his division lost twenty percent of its manpower,

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Speaker 1: which is heavy. That's an intense rate of casualties.

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Speaker 2: Good.

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Speaker 1: I hope, I'm sad. Yeah, I hope, I hope they

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Speaker 1: all suffered real tenseling. Yeah, now, Mengolo was praised by

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Speaker 1: his superior officers, even as the tight of war turned

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Speaker 1: gradually against the Nazi forces. At the end of November

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty two, he was nearly killed an aerial attack.

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Speaker 1: A comrade described in his unit log vigorous air activity. Again,

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Speaker 1: doctor Mengola buried. Bomb explodes next to foxhole and buried him.

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Speaker 1: They got him out alas So. Another thing that a

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Speaker 1: thing that is cool in this time period is the

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Speaker 1: Russians counterattack at Stalingrad and the Romanian army kind of collapses,

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Speaker 1: and then they surround the German sixth Army, and you know,

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Speaker 1: massacret Joseph Mengola is in and around that action, and

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Speaker 1: he actually gets evacuated by air during one of the

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Speaker 1: last moments in which that would have been possible. No

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Speaker 1: one's really sure why he gets evacuated. He doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to have been injured, which would have been a normal

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Speaker 1: reason to like pull an officer out from the front.

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Speaker 1: There's a pretty good chance it's just because he's a doctor.

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Speaker 1: He's seen as having high value as a rachel hygienist.

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Speaker 1: The war in the East is failing, but the Nazi

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Speaker 1: regime's race war they felt was still winnable and they

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Speaker 1: needed Mangola on another battle front, a place called Auschwitz.

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Speaker 1: So we're only episode three. Yeah, it's mostly gonna be

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Speaker 1: Auschwitz today, this is gonna be this this week is

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Speaker 1: all Auschwitz. Oops, all Auschwitz. Oops. Switch it is not.

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Speaker 1: So he gets.

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Speaker 2: I just fucking I just throwing SSRs in my mouth.

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Speaker 1: This is the only way to talk about Joey mengs

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Speaker 1: is with with a lot of reverb. So he gets evacuated.

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Speaker 1: He's in Berlin for a little while before he gets

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Speaker 1: his next assignment, and he gets in touch with his

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Speaker 1: old boss, Otmar von Verschuer, and Ottmar is now running

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Speaker 1: the Kaiservillehelm Institute for Anthropology, so he makes Mengola a

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Speaker 1: guest scholar there, you know, as he's recovering from being

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Speaker 1: at the warfront, and Mengola continues to aid Verschure in

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Speaker 1: his work on an ad hoc basis. Von Verschuer had

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Speaker 1: taken over for the previous Nazi in charge, Eugene Fisher,

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Speaker 1: as part of an agreement between the two men that

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Speaker 1: race science had now advanced to an exciting new era,

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Speaker 1: one in which the study of heredity could now look

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Speaker 1: at traits like criminality or heroism, or work shyness or industriousness,

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Speaker 1: and determined with scientific precision to what extent those traits

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Speaker 1: were caused by heredity or by environment. The missing piece

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Speaker 1: of the puzzle was that heredity science as they saw it,

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Speaker 1: still could not explain how a genetic disposition became a

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Speaker 1: physical trait. In his book on Mangola, Marwoll quotes historian

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Speaker 1: Walter Schmuel. The idea generally accepted up to that time

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Speaker 1: that every attribute was simply transmitted as dominant or recessive

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Speaker 1: monofactorial genetic information did not hold up to the results

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Speaker 1: of mutation research, population genetics, or developmental physiology. Thus, Mendelian

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Speaker 1: genetics was giving way, in the words of the day,

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Speaker 1: to higher mendalism, which presumed much more complicated mechanisms of heredity. Now,

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Speaker 1: part of why the Nazis are confused is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the things they saw as traits simply are

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Speaker 1: not behaviors or traits that have a genetic component, or

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Speaker 1: just aren't traits at all. You have to consider the

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Speaker 1: Nazis considered criminality a trait, and their definition of a

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Speaker 1: criminal was kind of broad.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it was weirdly sounded a lot like they

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Speaker 2: were just trying to describe Jews in any aspect and

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Speaker 2: just trying to use science to justify it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can see how they would be confused

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Speaker 1: that all of their calculations aren't adding up here.

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Speaker 2: And also what's a crime, because yeah, they would also

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Speaker 2: like anything gay was a crime, and sure, you know

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Speaker 2: exactly anything gender queer was a crime. So criminality quite

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Speaker 2: broad as well.

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Speaker 1: Broad term for the Nazis. Now, yes, there were, and

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Speaker 1: they were asking because these guys are scientists, and some

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Speaker 1: of what they're asking, we're legitimate at the time, scientific

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Speaker 1: questions about heredity. They were not just trying to do

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Speaker 1: stuff that was nonsense race science. They were trying to

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Speaker 1: answer real questions that scientists all over the world were

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Speaker 1: kind of grappling with. The pseudoscience here though, is pretty

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Speaker 1: complex and not worth kind of delving into in much

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Speaker 1: more detail, so we will continue to focus more on

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Speaker 1: the personalities. Vershure and Fisher, both highly regarded race scientists,

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Speaker 1: were obsessed with unraveling the mystery of heredity. So they

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Speaker 1: made an agreement and Vershure gets made the head of

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Speaker 1: the institute because he's really good at getting funding and

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Speaker 1: support from the Nazi state. I'm going to quote again

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Speaker 1: now from Marwell's book, although he himself here is largely

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Speaker 1: quoting the work of a historian named Sheila faith Weiss.

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Speaker 1: In pursuit of this this new paradigm argues wise a

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Speaker 1: combination of experimental research on animals and humans was necessary.

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Speaker 1: She writes that Dalam Institute scientists could provide the necessary

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Speaker 1: human clinical supplement to the ongoing experimental work in the

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Speaker 1: developmental genetics of normal and pathological traits in animals. Mengel's

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Speaker 1: four month association with the institute and the winter and

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Speaker 1: spring of nineteen forty three laid the foundation for a

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Speaker 1: crucial link between the scientists at the institute and a

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Speaker 1: colleague who could be instrumental in supplying all manner of

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Speaker 1: human specimens and data to advance their work. So they

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Speaker 1: hit this point where they're like, in order to do

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Speaker 1: more heredity research, the only way to properly do this

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Speaker 1: is to study a bunch of humans. And that kind

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Speaker 1: of study is going to involve dissection, it's going to

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Speaker 1: involve autopsies, it's going to involve finding people who have

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Speaker 1: rare different kind of genetic disabilities and studying their bodies

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Speaker 1: after they die. If you were to do that legitimately,

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Speaker 1: you know, using only bodies that people had willingly donated

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Speaker 1: after their deaths, well you're not going to actually be

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Speaker 1: able to do that science. It's at the rate at

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Speaker 1: which these Nazis want to do it. They're going to

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Speaker 1: need a supply of human material, and that is where

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Speaker 1: Joseph Mangel is going to be useful to them.

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Speaker 2: So God, it's so fucking suppressing brow.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is I mean, these are the Mangola episodes. Yeah, yeah, Lita,

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Speaker 1: people going down.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you can cut that one about this one instead,

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Speaker 2: except it's jarring Mesa Buston. That's always nice. It's nice

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Speaker 2: to remember the finer parts of life. As we have

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Speaker 2: we delve into this darkness. So Joey mangs gets assigned

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Speaker 2: to work at Auschwitz in the May of nineteen forty three,

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Speaker 2: and we don't exactly know why, because they get rid

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Speaker 2: of a lot of their documentation around Auschwitz shortly after

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Speaker 2: this period. It is likely, and Mangola's son would later

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Speaker 2: say that von Verschuer basically pulled strings to get him

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Speaker 2: appointed at Auschwitz. It is worth noting doctors were never

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Speaker 2: work at death camps. Not one of the SS doctors

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Speaker 2: who worked at any of the death camps was there

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Speaker 2: on pain that they would be punished. You didn't even

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Speaker 2: suffer career consequences for refusing to work at a death camp.

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Speaker 2: It was this work. Normal empathy was like, oh, I no,

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Speaker 2: I'd rather not. Yeah, I get it. Bro, it's talk

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Speaker 2: about that. It's fucked up. It's fucked up. Bro, I

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Speaker 2: tolt me neither.

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Speaker 1: It is often errantly stated that Mengelo was the chief

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Speaker 1: medical officer at Auschwitz, but this is inaccurate. His direct

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Speaker 1: supervisor was the chief medical director at the camp, and

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Speaker 1: Mengela is more accurately viewed as basically the number two

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Speaker 1: man in terms of like the medical system at Auschwitz.

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Speaker 1: Gerald Posner credits this errant reputation to the fact that

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Speaker 1: Joseph was a workaholic as well as one of the

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Speaker 1: few SS men there who had seen combat in the East.

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Speaker 1: Mengela frequently referred to his combat experience, and he quickly

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Speaker 1: developed a special aura in the camp because of his

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Speaker 1: frontline fighting, which contrasted sharply with the desk careers of

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Speaker 1: the other doctors, Mengl coupled his combat status with a

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Speaker 1: workaholic devotion to his duties. While other Auschwitz doctors did

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Speaker 1: no more than was required of them, Mangelo was always

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Speaker 1: undertaking new projects and extra responsibility, and one example of

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Speaker 1: an extra responsibility he took on was eradicating a typhoid

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Speaker 1: epidemic that occurred at one of the barracks soon after

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Speaker 1: his arrival. Now, for reference, Auschwitz was made up of

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Speaker 1: several labor camps, each with a different set of barracks,

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Speaker 1: generally divided between men and women, but also between inmates

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Speaker 1: from different regions. As a general rule, families were split

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Speaker 1: up on arrival by sex and availability to work. But

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Speaker 1: sometimes too many people came in at once Auschwitz. I

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Speaker 1: think the most people it ever killed in a day

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Speaker 1: was nine thousand, and there were days where more than

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Speaker 1: that arrived. And thus, yeah, I mean it was a

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Speaker 1: factory for producing death. And so sometimes when they had

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Speaker 1: too many people arrive, communities would be kept intact until

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Speaker 1: they could be exterminated. And when you stick large numbers

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Speaker 1: of people in tiny, poorly made bear with no insulation

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a European winter, and you feed them,

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Speaker 1: maybe seven hundred calories a day, and you deprive them

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Speaker 1: of clean water, illness is going to spread. And sure enough,

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Speaker 1: typhoid epidemics were rampant at the time. With the technology available,

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Speaker 1: it was basically impossible to stop typhus from spreading once

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Speaker 1: it had become endemic and something like a crowded barracks.

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Speaker 1: This had been an intractable problem for the camp administration

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Speaker 1: prior to Mangola's arrival, and the SS saw this as

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Speaker 1: a serious issue, not because they cared about the comfort

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Speaker 1: and safety of prisoners, but because typhoid just spreads. You know,

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Speaker 1: the SS can get typhoid from the prisoners at the barracks, right,

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Speaker 1: so you have high.

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Speaker 2: Foyd can't even tell who's Jewish or not. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: really messed up.

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Speaker 1: It's like they're all's the same species.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand it. Well, you're gonna have to do

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Speaker 2: more science, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So something has to be done, and Joseph Mangela

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Speaker 1: is going to be the guy to do it. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to quote now from a memoir by a

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Speaker 1: Jewish doctor cad in Germany named Miklos n named Miklos Nisli.

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Speaker 1: Miklos is interned at Auschwitz with his family and forced

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Speaker 1: to work as a medical officer there by doctor Mengela

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Speaker 1: and here are his recollections of how Joseph fought the

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Speaker 1: typhoid outbreak. The quarantine camp, C Camp, Dcamp and the

384
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Speaker 1: F section were terribly overcrowded, despite the quotas which were

385
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Speaker 1: filled daily for shipment to more distant camps and the

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Speaker 1: Czech camp. Both the children and the aged had been

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Speaker 1: greatly weakened by their two year ordeal. The children's bodies

388
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: were mere skin and bones, and the elderly prisoners were

389
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Speaker 1: so weak they could scarcely walk. Both had to relinquish

390
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 1: their places to new arrivals who were still strong enough

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Speaker 1: to work. During the preceding weeks, their situation had steadily worsened.

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Speaker 1: When the first Hungarian convoys began arriving, their rations had

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Speaker 1: been sharply reduced. Then a few weeks later, when the

394
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,199
Speaker 1: stream of new deporte tees had swelled the flood proportions,

395
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,959
Speaker 1: the camp authorities had found themselves faced with a serious

396
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 1: shortage of food. As usual, their remedy had both been

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Speaker 1: both drastic and efficient. They had practically suppressed the ch

398
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: The check camp's rations. Altogether, hunger had reduced the prisoners

399
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Speaker 1: to raving, moaning maniacs within a few days. There already

400
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 1: weakened organisms had disintegrated entirely. Diarrhea, dysentery, and typhus had

401
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: begun their deadly work. Fifty or sixty deaths a day

402
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: was normal. Their last days were spent in indescribable suffering

403
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: till at last a death came and set them free.

404
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: The closing of all barracks was ordered early in the morning.

405
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Speaker 1: Several hundred SR soldiers surrounded the Czech area and ordered

406
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Speaker 1: the inmates to assemble. Their cries of terror as they

407
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: were loaded into the waiting vans were terrible to hear,

408
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: for after two years in the KZ they no longer

409
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: had any illusions about what lay in store for them.

410
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Speaker 1: Liquidation day found some twelve thousand prisoners left in the

411
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Speaker 1: check camp. From among that number, fifteen hundred able bodied

412
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Speaker 1: men and women were chosen, along with eight physicians. The

413
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: rest were sent to Number two and Number three crematoriums.

414
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Speaker 1: On the following day, the check camp was silent and deserted.

415
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Speaker 1: I saw truck loaded with ashes leave the crematorium and

416
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Speaker 1: head towards the Vistula, it's a river. Thus, the Auschwitz

417
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Speaker 1: muster rolls were reduced by more than twelve thousand units,

418
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Speaker 1: and one more bloody page was added to the Auschwitz archives.

419
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Speaker 1: That page contained only the following brief inscription. The checks

420
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Speaker 1: section of the Auschwitz concentration camp was liquidated this date

421
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Speaker 1: due to what prevalence of typhus among the prisoners signed

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Speaker 1: Doctor Mengola helps to them for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I uh, this is exactly like forcing people

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Speaker 2: to get vexed. You know, it's the same thing, same thing, bro.

425
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Speaker 2: It doesn't punch an anti vaxer in the face. It's like,

426
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Speaker 2: every time I listen to this podcast about like different

427
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: Nazi atrocities or read about it, I'm always just like,

428
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Speaker 2: if I ever see an anti vaxxer walk into a

429
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: Baskin Robbins with a fucking star of David that says

430
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: it because they're like, I don't need a vaccine, I

431
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: just want all thirty two flavors. I don't punch him

432
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: in the fucking mouth.

433
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: I think it is justified to do violent to people

434
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: who compare like think and it's not even you're not

435
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: even being forced by the state to get a vaccine.

436
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: You're being told like, yeah, man, if you want to

437
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: work in a high school cafeteria, you have to get

438
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: a COVID vaccine.

439
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 2: Well, there's a Nazi Germany.

440
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: No, it's super isn't It's it's totally not I yeah,

441
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's one of those things, like everybody knows

442
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: Auschwitz like horrible, right, Like that's not we're not We're

443
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: not like blowing any minds with the fact that this

444
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: was a bad place. But when you actually dig into,

445
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: like I recommend if you want to get an actual

446
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: degree of personal physical context for what it was like there,

447
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: uh Miklos Sneezley's memoir Auschwitz, a Doctor's Eyewitness Account is short.

448
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: You can finish it in an afternoon. It's not a

449
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: long book, and it's fucking harrowing, like just absolutely some

450
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: of the some of the worst things that you can

451
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: possibly hear.

452
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: That was just one passage you read. Yeah, I already

453
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: need a nap. That's not one of the bad ones.

454
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: Like it's bad, but like in terms of the degree

455
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: of personal brutality involved, that's not one of the most

456
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: That's not the worst thing we're going to talk about today. Cool.

457
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna need a lot of jar jar buddy.

458
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: Well, that smells Stinka with absolutely Jesus.

459
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: So it's important to note we just talked about the

460
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,239
Speaker 1: fact that, like the doctors at Auschwitz were not at

461
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: all forced to be there, Auschwitz and the death camp

462
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: system in general could not function without doctors. They were

463
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: the key lynchpin that held the entire thing together. The

464
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: kind of thugs who were doing the mass, you know,

465
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: shootings of people and carrying the guns and manning the

466
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: guard towers, those were much less important to the system

467
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: of killing than medical doctors. In January of nineteen forty two,

468
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: a group of Nazi functionaries under friend of the pod

469
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: Reinhardt Heidrich, sat down in a suburb of Verlin called

470
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: Vonse to plan out technical details of the Holocaust. Prior

471
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 1: to this moment, the genocidal vibe of the Nazis had

472
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: been a mix of deportations, mass shootings, restrictive laws, and

473
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: random beatings and murders. After Vonse, the death camp sprung

474
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: up to full production, with a goal of cleansing Europe

475
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: from undesirable races. As we've discussed throughout these episodes, this

476
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: was seen as a medical task. Doctors like von Verschuer

477
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: were key advocates throughout the escalating process of preparing the

478
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: German state to carry out genocide. And I'm going to

479
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: quote from the book Racial Hygiene here. Ottmar von Verschuer

480
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: described in his textbook the need for a complete solution

481
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: of the Jewish question. On March twenty seventh to twenty eighth,

482
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, at opening ceremonies for the Institute for

483
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: Research of the Jewish Question in Frankfort, Eugene Fisher and

484
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: Hans F. K. Gunther were guests of honor at a

485
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: meeting where possible solutions to the Jewish question were discussed.

486
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: At this meeting, Walter Gross reviewed the shortcomings of previous

487
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: efforts in this regard emancipation, persecution, partial annihilation, and so forth,

488
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: and claimed that a final solution could only come from

489
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: the complete removal of Jews from Europe. So that's Mengla's job.

490
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: That's why these doctors are there, right, They are seeing

491
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: through the future health of the race by exterminating people.

492
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: And that's very much how they see their role. Mngla's

493
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: first job, and the first job of all SS doctors

494
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: at Auschwitz, was to sort new arrivals to the camp.

495
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: The trains would arrive packed full of starving, desperate people,

496
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: often jammed in with the corpses of their loved ones

497
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: who had starved or died of illness. After days stuck

498
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: in a dank, airless train car without access to sanitation,

499
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: they would be marched out and sorted by a man

500
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: like Mengola. And we're gonna talk more about that. But what.

501
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy commercial break.

502
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: Here we go. That's got everybody in a good mood,

503
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: ready for capitalism.

504
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: Somehow. That was in a minor key. I don't even know.

505
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: It's on autotune, and even the autotune is depressed.

506
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: Little little miracles. Oh we're back.

507
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 2: Oh back. I just took three thousand in prozac and

508
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: I am ready to rock.

509
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: There we go, There we go. So, speaking of prozac,

510
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: m Mengela and the other doctors that are there, Yeah,

511
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: their job is selecting these people. And I can describe

512
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: this experience of selection in broad terms, but nothing does

513
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: a better job of illustrating it than the words of

514
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: a man who went through it. Miklos Neiezley arrived at

515
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: Auschwitz in May of nineteen forty four, less than a

516
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: year into doctor Mengela's time there, and he met the

517
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: man himself immediately on arrival. We jumped to the ground,

518
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: then turned over to take our wives and children in

519
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: our arms and help them down, For the level of

520
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: the cars was over four and a half feet from

521
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: the ground. The guards had us line up along the tracks.

522
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: Before us stood a young SS officer, impeccable in his uniform,

523
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: a gold rosette gracing his lapel, his boots smartly polished.

524
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: Though unfamiliar with the various SS ranks, I surmised from

525
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: his armband that he was a doctor. Later I learned

526
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: that he was the head of the SS group, that

527
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: his name was doctor Mengola, and that he was the

528
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: chief physician of the Auschwitz concentration camp. As the medical

529
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: selector for the camp, he was present at the arrival

530
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: of every train. Now, obviously you know Miklos has imperfect

531
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: recall like all light witnesses, Mangolo was not the chief physician,

532
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: and he was not present for the arrival of every

533
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: single train. This was a duty that doctors switched off

534
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: on taking, and there's not documented evidence that Mangela did

535
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: more than his share of shifts, which still means that

536
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: he personally sent potentially several hundred thousand people to their annihilation.

537
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: We just don't know if he, you know, worked over time.

538
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's evidence that he did.

539
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit more about why Miklos has

540
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: some of these kind of beliefs about what Mangola did

541
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: at the camp that don't line up with the documentation.

542
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: Because he's not the only one. This is not like

543
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: a personal flaw. For one thing. Stress like talk to

544
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: people who have been president like a mass shooting, and

545
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: you'll get different accounts of what happens and when eyewitnesses,

546
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: often because it's a stressful, terrifying situation, and Auschwitz is

547
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: the most stressful and terrifying situation of all of the

548
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: stressful terrifying situations. So, yeah, your memory is going to

549
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: have a couple of errors. It doesn't mean anything about

550
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: the overall trustworthiness of his account. It's just that you

551
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: get little details like that wrong. It is worth noting

552
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: that the evidence suggests Mengelo was unusually well suited to

553
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: the mental task of selection. Doctor Ella Lingoln's, who was

554
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: also interned at Auschwitz, later noted that Joseph handled the

555
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: duty with less stress than his colleagues. Quote some like

556
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: Werner Roade, who hated his work and Hans Kanig, who

557
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: was deeply disgusted by the job, had to get drunk

558
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: before they appeared on the ramp. Only two doctors performed

559
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: the selections without any stimulants of any kind, doctor Joseph

560
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: Mengela and doctor Fritz Klein. Doctor Mengelo was particularly cold

561
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: and cynical, and Klein, who definitely deserves to be remembered

562
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: in the same breath as a piece of shit like Mengola,

563
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: had hated Jewish people with a passion ever since a

564
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: Jewish guy stole his fiance when they were undergrads.

565
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: That was the way.

566
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, that's that's.

567
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: His that's Holocaust, because that's my assumption for most Nazis.

568
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: No, that is absolutely what happened.

569
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: Some tall, handsome Jews such as myself, you know, like

570
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: you know, maybe dated their ex girlfriend who broke their

571
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: heart and now it's like, well, must kise him on that.

572
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: That is perfect faces AND's a nice penis.

573
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: Is that is that is definitely that is definitely the

574
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: case for doctor Fritz in cell Kleine. Klein was known

575
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: to brag that he liked the smell of the crematoria.

576
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: Lingoln's talked to Mangola about his own opinions on the subject,

577
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: and she claimed she's one of these doctors who's forced

578
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: to work at the camp because she's a prisoner. There

579
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: are a lot of these folks. Langen's talked to Mangla

580
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: about his own opinions on the subject, and she claimed, quote,

581
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: he once told me that there are only two gifted

582
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: people in the world, Germans and Jews, and it's a

583
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: question of who will be superior. So he decided that

584
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: they had to be destroyed.

585
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, this is like underneath all of the now. Granted,

586
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: my entire like or at least most of my personal

587
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: dealings with anti Semitism has been like chuds online, but

588
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: it does seem very like, I don't know, like rooted in.

589
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to say they're jealous, that they're fucking

590
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: jealous of us, but it does seem like a lot

591
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: of it is just like Zie, it's so smart and

592
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: so funny, and all the girls likes him, and I

593
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: mean and me, I'm just so nice too, so all

594
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: the girls I'm too nice. I need to be mean.

595
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: And then they you know, they read Jordan Peterson, they

596
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: start cleaning their room, they start doing racial hygiene, and

597
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: then Bob's your own.

598
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah that's the that's the it goes. Yeah, God almighty.

599
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: So it's one thing to kind of give an overview

600
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: of how the selection process worked, which is harrowing enough.

601
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: But I think I'd be doing it a service if

602
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: I didn't give you an account of meeting Joseph Mangela

603
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: as a prisoner approaching selection. This one comes from our

604
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: buddy Miklos, who does survive the camp. We'll talk a

605
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: little bit about how later, because by God, it's a story.

606
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: Quote to start, the SS quickly divided us according to sex,

607
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: leaving all children under fourteen with their mothers. So our

608
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: once united group was straightway split in two. A feeling

609
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: of dread overwhelmed us, but the guards replied to our

610
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: anxious questions in a paternal, almost good natured manner. It

611
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: was nothing to be concerned about. They were being taken

612
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: off for a bath and to be disinfected, as was

613
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: the custom. Afterwards, we would all be reunited with our families.

614
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: While they sorted us out for transportation, I had a

615
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: chance to look around in the light of the dying sun.

616
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: The image glimpsed earlier through the crack, and the box

617
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: cars seemed to have changed, grown more eerie and menacing.

618
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: One object immediately caught my eye, an immense square chimney

619
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: built of red bricks, tapering towards the summit. It towered

620
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: above a two story building and looked like a strange

621
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: factory chimney. I was especially struck by the enormous tongues

622
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: of flame rising between the lightning rods, which were set

623
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: at angles over the square tops of the chimney. I

624
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: tried to imagine what hellish cooking would require such tremendous fire.

625
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: Suddenly I realized that we were in Germany, the land

626
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: of the crematory ovens. I had spent ten years in

627
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: this country, first as a student, later as a doctor,

628
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: and I knew that even the smallest city had its crematorium.

629
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, before you were like, I feel like it would

630
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: be a disservice to do the police feel free to

631
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: deserve me. Yeah, you know, I don't need to hear all.

632
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: Sorry, it's like, yeah, I think One of the stories

633
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: that's kind of worth telling about Mingola in this period

634
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: is the fact that like there's one point where a

635
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: doctor gets sent to the camp and he kind of

636
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: realizes what is happening, and he's like, I'm not willing

637
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: to do this, you know, I don't want to to

638
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: go through this shit. This is like not what doctors do.

639
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: I feel like it's immoral for me to be here.

640
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: And so he says that he's going to like leave

641
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: and like tries to get his way out of Auschwitz.

642
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: This guy, Oh, yeah, so I found it here. So yeah,

643
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: this SS physician named Horse Fisher is like, yeah, he

644
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: goes through like one of these selections and he's just

645
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: so horrified of it that he tries to transfer out

646
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: of it.

647
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,959
Speaker 2: And yeah.

648
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: Fisher asks himself kind of over the next couple of weeks,

649
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: like why they're doing this, Why these starving people, the

650
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: poorest of the poor, who couldn't possibly have like influenced

651
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: the economy or politics or harmed Germany in any way.

652
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: Why these people had to be exterminated. And as he's

653
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: like trying to leave the camp, he asks Mangola these

654
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: questions that he's been asking himself, and Mngola responds, it

655
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: was precisely from this reservoir of people that the Jews

656
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: drew new power and refreshed their blood. Without the poor

657
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: but supposedly harmless Eastern Jews, the civilized Western European Jews

658
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: would not be capable of survival. Therefore, it was necessary

659
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: to kill all Jews. And one of the things that

660
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: Mangola does is he takes this questioning doctor and he

661
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: starts doing like selections with him in order to like

662
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: talk him up throughout the process, until eventually the guy

663
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: is willing to continue the job as an SS physician.

664
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: So he's he's yeah, yeah, he talks him into it.

665
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, weak minded bitches, dude.

666
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're Nazis.

667
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: Just like he gets close to like feeling something close

668
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: to human fucking startasy.

669
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: To recognize the dimensions of the horror that he's been

670
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: complicit in. And Mengola is like, Nona, bro, you're good, Like,

671
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: let me let me walk you through why we need

672
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: to be doing this.

673
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

674
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: So, our friend Miklos, who we've been talking about, is

675
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: lucky by the standards of Auschwitz. His daughter is old

676
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: enough to work, and so she and his wife are

677
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: sent to the right so they don't get murdered immediately. Meanwhile,

678
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: he gets pulled out of the mass of prisoners, along

679
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: with several other doctors among the crowd, by Joseph Mengela.

680
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: The SS was always shorthanded, and they needed men and

681
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: women with proper medical skills, even if those men and

682
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: women were Jews who were condemned to die. Miklos and

683
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: the other doctors who suited Mangela's need became part of

684
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: what was known as the Saunder Commando. These special units,

685
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: to translate their name literally, were used to handle most

686
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: of the dirty work of actually executing the Holocaust. They

687
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: would drag bodies out of the gas chamber and incinerate them.

688
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: They would sort out things like gold fillings and take

689
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: other possessions from the dead. It's one of the worst

690
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: things imaginable that you could be forced to do now.

691
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: To keep the commando fununctional, the SS allowed them to

692
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 1: take things like canned or preserved food from the dead

693
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: and off an alcohol. The commando also found it easy

694
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: to acquire gold and jewelry, which they were able to

695
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: use sometimes to bribeguards for things like newspapers. These were

696
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: Nazi newspapers, but they were still like they gave you

697
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: some kind of outside context as to how the war

698
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: is going, like what is happening outside of Auschwitz? And

699
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: this and alcohol are pretty much the only thing that

700
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: kept these people functional. Miklos basically says, every night we

701
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: kind of drank ourselves into, you know, sleep to a stupor. Yeah, well,

702
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:35,959
Speaker 1: how else do you do this job?

703
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: Right? Right? Well, I mean fucking Mangola is going completely sober,

704
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 2: just like whistling.

705
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: He's not bothered by this is kind of the thing

706
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: about Mangla. Most of the SS are also drunk, right.

707
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: The other doctors are hammered, like everyone working this. Miklos

708
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: writes a lot about this one specific SS guy who's

709
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: like the trigger man, Like, whenever they need people shot,

710
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: this guy, I think he's a captain, will like just

711
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 1: go and shoot them in the head. And he does

712
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: this all day. And he's like he's one of the

713
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: nicer Nazis to Miklos, and he's clearly just like drinking

714
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: himself to death while he's doing this job. But not Mangola. Mangola.

715
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: For Mangola, this is like an unparalleled career opportunity, right,

716
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: and that's how he treats it. Yeah, So each of

717
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: these sonder commando units. Obviously, you can't do this job

718
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: for very long, right Like, for one thing, your brain

719
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: won't handle it, and for another, the SS doesn't want

720
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: these people because they have extra privileges. They don't want

721
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: them around long enough to potentially execute, as they eventually

722
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: will some sort of sabotage. So every sonder commando was

723
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: wiped out every four months, and the next commando units

724
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: first duty was disposing of the corpses. So Miklos when

725
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: he takes this job, knows like, we've got I've got

726
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: four months to live, basically because I've gotten picked for

727
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: this job. That said, he occupied a special position. Like

728
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: other slave doctors. He would help to care for workers

729
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: who took ill and keep track of things like the

730
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: outbreak of Typhus. One of the fucked up things is that,

731
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: like when workers come in sick to the doctors here,

732
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: they have to try to hide whatever's going on because

733
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: Mangela pays attention to everyone admitted to the camp hospital,

734
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: and if you're not getting well fast enough, or if

735
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: it looks like you're not, you're going to be immediately killed,

736
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: right like, so they have to they have to be

737
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: extremely careful. A big part of what the Sounder Commando

738
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: do because they have more access to like luxury goods

739
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: and things like medicine that they take off the dead,

740
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: is they will like bribe SS guards with gold that

741
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: they take from the dead and then use that to

742
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: go into the camps and distribute medicine and food to

743
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: some of like the people in the barrackses. It's the

744
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: only reason some of the people who live through Auschwitz

745
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: live through Auschwitz is that you know, these people in

746
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: this impossible fucking position, use this relative level of privilege

747
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: that they have to save some of their fellow inmates.

748
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's it's bleak quite so, Yeah, Mingla

749
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: needed Miklos in particular because he was a skilled human dissectionist. Right,

750
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: he is a doctor who has pathological experience, Like he

751
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: is trained to do medical pathology labs and stuff, and

752
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: Mengola is not a very good doctor, right, And that's

753
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: the same reason, like Miklos understatement, whenever the SS guys,

754
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, but whenever, like the SS guys get sick,

755
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: they go to Miklos and like he actually he's able

756
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: to do a lot of good for other people in

757
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: the camp because like some SS guy will get like

758
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 1: fucked up or sick, and he will help that guy.

759
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: And then when he's trying to like get into an

760
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: area of the camp, he'll be like, hey, man, like

761
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: I had your fucking back when you you know, got

762
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: yourself the fucking clap or whatever, you know, I need

763
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 1: I need to get in for a minute. So like again,

764
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: these are kind of the ways things actually work on

765
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: the ground, which you might think is weird given how

766
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: strict in theory these ideas of racial superiority are. That

767
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: these assessment they're letting this untermnched doctor touch their bodies.

768
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: But like again, they don't have the SS. Doctors are

769
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: poor physicians often, and Joseph hates providing medical care in

770
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: a clinical setting. He's also not common job of a doctor,

771
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: the job of a doctor. It's a normal doctoring.

772
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's also he's this whole thing where I have

773
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: to you know, like I have to do the thing

774
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: with the knee, make the knee move.

775
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: I like, take their vitals. I like the part of doctoring.

776
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: If they've just do fucked up shits, that's that's really

777
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: that's really what I'm into.

778
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: I got into this to sow people together, and now

779
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: everyone wants me to fucking just put band aids on people.

780
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: What is this ship?

781
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: You know what this ship isn't what the ads that

782
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: support our podcasts. That's true, It isn't that. It couldn't

783
00:42:51,160 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: be any less that. Yep, ah ah, we're back. Everybody's

784
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: having a good time.

785
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: Everyone's having fun. Yeah. Where you know this is like, uh,

786
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: I forgot that we always get to this point in

787
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: the podcast where everything is just so sad that I

788
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: want to die. Yeah. So sometimes I'm just going to

789
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: be doing my taxes. Yeah, just letting you know this

790
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: is uh. And I'll occasionally respond with, oh, you don't

791
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: say that way. You'll think I'm paying attention.

792
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: See, I should probably get to my taxes as well.

793
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: Well. It's just it's weighing on my mind. Yeah, to

794
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 2: do it. It's coming up very quickly. It'll be it'll

795
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: be tax time by the time these episodes drop. Happy

796
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: tax Day, everybody.

797
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: See. That's the nice thing about studying Joseph Mangela is

798
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: it makes the taxes seem a lot less unpleasant.

799
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: Honestly, it really does. I was seeing that exact same thing.

800
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I'm like stressing out about this.

801
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: There's so many other worst things in the world. And yeah, yeah,

802
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: getting all my documents together.

803
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: See that's the one song that Joseph Mengela did all

804
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: of us.

805
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Joey mang Thanks.

806
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: So me Close takes this job that's offered to him,

807
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: and he kind of nod says when Mangla makes a

808
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: bunch of threats that like, if you're not good enough

809
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: at doing these dissections, you know, I'll send you away

810
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: to the labor camp and stuff. And this is like

811
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: you have to you have to think about what an

812
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: impossible fucking position me Close is in because he has

813
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: no idea if his wife and daughter are still alive,

814
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: like they've been immediately separated. He has no contact with them.

815
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: He's quickly told when he meets with the other sunder commander,

816
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, man, they're gonna kill us all in

817
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: like three months, Like that's just what they do every

818
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: couple of months. Have some fucking gin you know, get

819
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: through the night. So yeah, he goes for like weeks.

820
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: He has no answer to the question of what's happened

821
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: to his family, and he's just being handed bodies to

822
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: dissect by doctor Mangola. We'll talk more about that in

823
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 1: a little bit, but for right now, it's worth digging

824
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: into exactly what Joseph was doing at Auschwitz. The work

825
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: of carrying out selections and ordering the massacre of typhoid

826
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: patients was of course enough to qualify him as a bastard.

827
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: We've already met the bastard threshold sometime. Agr threshold has

828
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: been far surpassed. In my opinion, we hit that at

829
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: the latest during the Operation Barbarossa.

830
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I thought I have a pretty low

831
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: bar for bastards. So yeah, he'd been a bastard.

832
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he leapt right over that low bar. So let's

833
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: talk about what he was doing here. You know, we

834
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: talked about what he did with those typhoid patients, but

835
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: that's not why he's famous for being the angel of death.

836
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: And for an overview of that, I'm going to quote

837
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: now from the Urologic History Museum in an article talking

838
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: about Nazi experiments at Auschwitz. In the first phase of

839
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: his experiments, Manglis subjected pairs of twins and people with

840
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: physical handicaps to specific medical examinations that could be carried

841
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: out on the living organism usually painful and exhausting. These

842
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: examinations lasted for hours and were a difficult experience for

843
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: starved terrified children, For such were the majority of the twins.

844
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: The subjects were photographed. Plaster casts were made of their

845
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: teeth and jaws, and their fingerprints and toeprints were taken.

846
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: As soon as the examinations of a particular pair of

847
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: twins or dwarf were finished, Mengola ordered them killed by

848
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: phenal injections so that he could go on to the

849
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: next phase of his experiments, the comparative analysis of internal

850
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 1: organs at autopsy. Although gynecology was not his specialty, Mangola

851
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: conducted experiments on pregnant women. He had them infected with

852
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: typhoid in order to determine whether or not the children

853
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 1: would be born with the infection too. Ruth Elias was

854
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: pregnant when she was transferred from Terresenstat to Auschwitz. She said,

855
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: I delivered a big, beautiful blonde girl, but Mengola ordered

856
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: that my breast be bound so that, as he said,

857
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: we can see how long a newborn baby can survive

858
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: without food. After watching her baby suffer for several days,

859
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: a female check doctor gave elias a syringe with an

860
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: overdose of morphine to end the child's agony.

861
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna go hug my baby real quick.

862
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of that. Some of the most unsettling

863
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 1: stories about Mangola are the things that make it clear

864
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: that like he's not this like unhinged, unchecked, like vehicle

865
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: of maliciousness. Evil is for him, it's a technology, it's

866
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: a tool. It's like picking up a screwdriver. Because there

867
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: are stories where he will he will carefully and in

868
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: an excellent advanced medical fashion, deliver a baby and then

869
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: immediately send the mother and baby off to the gas chamber.

870
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: And it's yeah, so fucked up because it's like we'd

871
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 2: like to imagine, especially someone is you know, twisted as

872
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: this fucking guy, yeah, being Jigsaw. Yeah, but he's like

873
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: he's like if Jigsaw were fucking boring. He's like if

874
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: Jigsaw were in you know, fucking marketing, if Jimsaw were

875
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: a middle manager at a firm that reduced murdered people, right,

876
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: and he is doing some bad stuff, but he's doing

877
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 2: some bad stuff at like the administrative like like middle

878
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: manager level, right, Like that's that is that is the

879
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: thing kind of that he is doing, and often he is.

880
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: He does kill people. He does do some of these,

881
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: like Hill inject chloroform into people's hearts so that they

882
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: can be killed in autopsied. But a lot of the

883
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 2: killing and a lot of the the butchery is just

884
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: other doctors who are better that he has as slaves,

885
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 2: that he makes them do the work for him, right,

886
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: Like he's delegating a lot of this. And these doctors,

887
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: by the way, like absolutely no mortal judgment on them.

888
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: They are participating and helping him carry out fucked up

889
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: experiments so that they can save as many people as

890
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: possible right through the crack, and they are saving lives.

891
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 2: It's an incredibly it's literally the worst position a human

892
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: being could be put in, Like they're doing this podcast.

893
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: Ye yeah, other than this podcast. So a lot of

894
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 1: meek work at Auschwitz involved autopsying dozens of twin pairs

895
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: of children who had been killed by the Nazis. Popular accounts,

896
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 1: as we've talked about a little bit of Menglo's butchery,

897
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: go whiter than this. You will find claims that he

898
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: sewed sets of twins together as part of some mad experiment,

899
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: and that he ejected colored dyes into their eyes to

900
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: make them change colors. And this is where we get

901
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: to the stuff about Mangola that's not entirely accurate. Some

902
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: of the more lurid experiments that he's accused of undertaking

903
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: either didn't happen or just weren't as crazy as they sound.

904
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: Mind you, all of this is bad science, but the

905
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: work that Mengla did at Auschwitz was not considered unhinged

906
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: or disconnected from the work of the broader German medical establishment.

907
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: Rather than being a mad scientist conducting horror at Auschwitz

908
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: like some sort of demented musician, he was, as we've said,

909
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: a mid level piece of an engine of scientific quackery

910
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: that needed body parts and lots of them to further

911
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: research into heredity. And we are going to talk about

912
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: that and a lot more. But I feel like I

913
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: feel like we've hit our limit for this episode of.

914
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: My limit for the next fifteen years. Yeah, this is

915
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 2: too much for me.

916
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm fine, Yeah, good, Well, for the next For the

917
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: next time we have you on, Matt, we'll find some

918
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: guy who, like I don't know, convinced people to drink

919
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: horse piss so they'd grow muscles, that's my favorite. Yeah,

920
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,439
Speaker 1: we'll get one of those guys. Any do an.

921
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: Episode on mister hands on him?

922
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: Oh no, now that's a good one. Yeah. Back to

923
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: Death by a Horse, that's Heroes of the Old Internet. Yes, no,

924
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: this is so obviously I think we started by talking

925
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: about this, but like people keep asking for Mangola over

926
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: and over, like number one, as we've said, it's not

927
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: responsible to just do Mangola because that's kind of falling

928
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: into this great man of history. Like he was this

929
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: one terrible guy who happened to get a job where

930
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 1: he could hurt people. No, no, no, he was part

931
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: of a massive engine of man tyranny that was created

932
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: by the Nazis as part of like their racial plans,

933
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: and he was tied in directly to mainstream medical like

934
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: the mainstream medical establishment of his time, and that's an

935
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: important part of his story. But also, like this is

936
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: just so much worse than most of our episodes. There's

937
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: not like there's not like these you know moments where

938
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: he does he's never silly, like, he's never ridiculous, he's

939
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: like it only makes him more evil. Yeah, no, he's

940
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: he's a quiet, competent monster.

941
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's the worst kind of evil because

942
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, he's not even occasionally stepping on a rake

943
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: and hidden his face.

944
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, Donald Trump is evil, but you get

945
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 1: those moments of beautiful comedy where he gets arrested or something.

946
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and and this guy is just yeah, he's

947
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 2: the worst type of evil. He's the type of evil

948
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: that makes me want to do my taxes. Yeah, yeah,

949
00:51:59,160 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: that's really evil.

950
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: This this episode has been sponsored by the Internal Revenue

951
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: Service the i r S. We don't seem so bad, now,

952
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: do well?

953
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 2: Yes, the i r S. Who has you know at

954
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: this point my endorsement. I'm a big fan of the

955
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: way you make me think about other things. So pay

956
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: your taxes on time. Yeah, I think you know, I

957
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: think it's time to end those thirteen years of sobriety.

958
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: I have guys, JK.

959
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm. I'm gonna just kind of sit

960
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 1: and stare at the wall for several minutes.

961
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 3: M h.

962
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hug my child, and I'm gonna remind you

963
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 2: that if you like podcasts, I do the wire Rewatch podcasts.

964
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: Pot yourself a gun, we do the Sopranos, And now

965
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: we're doing the Wire. It's a lot of fun and

966
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: it's a good time. Everyone have fun.

967
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen to that. I'll be on your wire podcast.

968
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: Soon, Yes you will.

969
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll lighten the load a little bit.

970
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you know it's uh, it's got its depressing moments,

971
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 2: but not so much. Yeah.

972
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: Man, none compared to this ship, all right.

973
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: The Zoomba.

974
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

975
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

976
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

977
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.