1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right. 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: Enjoyed the episode, I thought, this is it man Los Angeles. 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: Quincy says, you know, I'd rather live in Los Angeles 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: than Heaven. That's t Bone Burnette in conversation with my 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: Broken Record partner Rick Rubin. We took a hilarious picture 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: of Rick and t Bone after they taped this interview. 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: Rick is in a T shirt and shorts. Naturally, t 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: Bone towers over him, dressed impeccably in a white shirt 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: and a black suit like some old school blues player. 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: I think of t Bone as Rick's spiritual father. He's 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: a generation older, in his early seventies, but he's had 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: the same kind of extraordinary, behind the scenes influence on 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: the music we all listen to. T Bone is probably 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: most famous for helping launch the careers of artists like 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: Los Lobos, Counting Crows, and Gillian Welch. Also for producing 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: albums by Brandy Carlyle Elton John and the masterfully executed 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Raising Sand collaboration between Alison Kraus and Robert plant Oh. 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: He also produced and performed on My favorite Elvis Costello 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: record of all time, King of America. Then there's this 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: film and TV credits which are insane. He partnered with 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: the Coen Brothers' music supervisor on The Big Lebowski. He 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: worked on Oh Brother, Where art thou walk? The line? 27 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: Crazy Heart, jew Detective. The list goes on. He's a 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: new record out called The Invisible Light Acoustic Space available 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: wherever you get your music. It's the first in a 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: series of records T Bone will be putting out this year, 31 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: an incredible outpouring of songs coming out of a play 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: he's providing the music for. I only met him onths 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: years and years ago. What was the most stars studied 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: dinner party I've ever attended? It was in La I 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: got invited by accident. It was wall to wall movie 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: stars and t Bone Burnett, and the only person I 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: wanted to listen to was t Bone Burnett. You're about 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: to understand how I felt. I'm Malcolm Godwell, this is 39 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: broken record and I'm heartbroken. I didn't get to join 40 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: in on this conversation here in conversation at Shango Law 41 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Studios in Malibu, Rick Rubin and t Bone Burnett. Are 42 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: you always writing songs? No, you know, I took a 43 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: job about three years ago Marshall Brickman. Do you know 44 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: Marshall Brickman an incredible character. He was one of the 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: original folkies in New York City and I didn't know that. 46 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: I only know him as a as a writer. Well, 47 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: in the fifties he was one of the cats in 48 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: Washington Square Park and he played on Judy Collins records. 49 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: He played, he was a session musician. He played all that. 50 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: He played banjo and fiddle and guitar and mandolin. He 51 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: was the guitar player on Dueling Banjos for Deliverance. And 52 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: by the time he was twenty three, he was the 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: head writer on the Johnny Carson to Night Show. And 54 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: then he invented The Dick Cavett Show. And then he 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: wrote those movies with Woody Allen that you would know, 56 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: The Annie Hall in Manhattan, and then he wrote Jersey Boys, 57 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: which is amazing, you know. So he's transitioned into theater. 58 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: And he called me up and he said, do you 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: want to write a musical about the people who played 60 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, and do you remember them 61 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: at all? So Roy Rogers was from my generation, the 62 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: biggest star in the world, you know, all through the fifties. 63 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: He had a television show and it was an interesting idea. 64 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: He's in the Country Music Hall of Fame because he's 65 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: a great He was a fantastic singer. But I always 66 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: thought he was Roy Rogers, and I always thought Dale 67 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: Evans was Dale Evans. But they were two actors. I 68 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: didn't know that. Yeah, nobody knows that. So this is 69 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: a story about the people who played them. And so 70 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: they were like the monkeys, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, 71 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: except she wrote happy Trails. She was a great songwriter 72 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: and he was a great singer. But they were cast, yeah, 73 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: into those parts. Yeah, and the whole character was made up. Yeah, 74 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: the whole character was unbelievable. I brought a song to 75 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: play for you. Do you want to play me the song? Yeah? 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 1: That's a nice nice yeah. Yeah. Where will that fall 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: into the story, I don't know. I think it's early 78 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: when he's I think he's maybe auditioning for a radio 79 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: show or something. He sings that song but yeah, I 80 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: think it's in the first act. Great, yeah, really good. 81 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: Do you have to write? Are you to point now 82 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: where you know sort of where the songs fit? And 83 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: is there ever a calling to like say, okay, in 84 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: the end of the second act, we need to add 85 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: a song in this spot and this is what it 86 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: needs to accomplish in the story. Yeah. In fact, I 87 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: just wrote. We did a twenty they called it a 88 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: twenty nine hour reading, which is you get all the 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: actors up on their feet and they read the parts 90 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: and you sort it. You do it without costumes or 91 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: without sets, but you get the you get the gist 92 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: of it, the tempo of the thing. And I realized 93 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: after the last one that there I didn't have a 94 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: beginning song for Roy, and I didn't have an ending 95 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: song for Dale. So I went back and I did that. 96 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: I wrote, I wrote a good song called out of 97 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: Nowhere for Roy to start off with, so you meet 98 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: him in strength, and then Dale needed a song at 99 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: the end of a heavy duty number at the end. 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, And I'm sure we're gonna open it in 101 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: Atlanta and twenty twenty in the fall of twenty twenty, 102 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: and I'm sure once we get into the process of 103 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: really getting it up and getting in front of audiences. 104 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: There'll be a lot more changes to come. Yeah beautiful. 105 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: I love the piece and surrender line really good, Yeah, 106 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: really good. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, and I love the tagline. 107 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: The hook line is great. Yeah, everybody wants to live 108 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: for but nobody wants to get over. So good. But 109 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: when I accepted this commission to write these songs for 110 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: a musical, and I've done a lot of work with 111 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: Sam Shepherd. He and I'd done a lot of things 112 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: for plays, but a musicals different because every line has 113 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: to be intentional. You know, you can't write just a 114 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: cool Yeah, it's narrative. Yeah, it is narrative. And it 115 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: became it was It sobered me up quite a bit, 116 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: and I started reading. I read Sondheim's books, and I 117 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: started studying Frank Lesser, who I think was the greatest 118 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: of all the Broadway composers, and Learner and Low and 119 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: all these cats. And it became clear that I was 120 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: going to have to dance or get off the floor. 121 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: So I started waking up every morning at four in 122 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: the morning for about a year solid and writing when 123 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: it was quiet. And then when I got through writing 124 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: the twenty songs for the musical, I couldn't stop writing. 125 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: So I've written now I don't know how. We've recorded 126 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: about two hours of music that we're going to start 127 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: putting out at April twelfth. Is the process of writing 128 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: a song for a musical different than writing a song otherwise, Yeah, 129 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: it is, yeah, because it does have to move the 130 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: story along. But do you start with the music first 131 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: or do you start with the lyrics. I started with 132 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: the lyrics because it's, as you say, it's part of 133 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: the book. It's part of the narrative, so you'd write 134 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: it like a poem basically. Yeah. Would you have a 135 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: melody in your head? Yeah? Yeah, you know, melody is 136 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: really just codified inflection. So it's your storytelling no matter what, 137 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: so that every sentence has a certain melody to it. 138 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: And so I was doing that. I was writing, but 139 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: I would have a sense of melody as it was 140 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: going down, and then you know, I wrote, we're putting 141 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: out We're starting to put out records. I'm putting out 142 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: three double records in the next year. This year, I'm 143 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: going to kind of work hip hop because I see 144 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: these cats they just put stuff out constantly, so we've 145 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: recorded a lot of these tunes that have come afterward. Yes, 146 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: I stopped. I really stopped producing other people for the 147 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: most part. Although interesting, I've just made a record with 148 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: Sarah Burrellis that's really beautiful. She's a beautiful singer, unbelievable. 149 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: And she's also gone through the experience of writing a play. 150 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: She wrote a musical of Waitress and it raised the 151 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: stakes for her too. Her writing has become much more resonant, deeper, 152 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: and higher. It's interesting to hear her growth through the process. 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: How is the collaboration with her different than her other records? 154 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Would you say we did it more live? Which is 155 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: what I mostly do. That's the thing I like most. 156 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: The thing I love about making records is when people 157 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: are playing and singing all at one time and you 158 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: get they get finished, and you say, yeah, that's great. 159 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's such a great feeling. It's such a 160 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: There's something about people playing together that no amount of 161 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: getting it right, yeah, counters the energy of the interaction. Yeah. 162 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: Perfection is a second rate idea, and the computer is 163 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: a to put out perfect music all day long, but 164 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: it's not nearly as interesting. It's like those Johnny Cash 165 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: records you made with him, just sitting in a room 166 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: with some people, turning them onto a song, you know, 167 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: and turning the whole then turning the whole world onto 168 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: the song the same way. So that's that's the process 169 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: I like the most. And I think the band was great. 170 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: She you know, it was the same, essentially the same 171 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: band that was un Raising Sand. Jay Belrose played drums 172 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: and Dennis Crouch played string bass and Rebo played guitar. 173 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: I love that album so much, Raising Sand. I love it. 174 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: Isn't that a beautiful record? So beautiful? Yeah, it really 175 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: took me by surprise. I don't know, I wasn't expecting 176 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: it to be so beautiful and just blew my mind. Well, 177 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: you know both that both of them have mystical, beautiful voices. Yes, 178 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: and and it was interesting to hear him soften up. Yeah, 179 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: but on paper it wasn't necessarily a mustlessen thing, and 180 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: then hearing it it was mind blowing. I also didn't 181 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: I didn't know most of those songs, so I didn't 182 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: know that they weren't original songs. Yeah, so they were 183 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: original for most people, yes, Yeah, but uh, it's got 184 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: some of that same Sarah's record has some of that 185 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: same that one come together Robert Allison really, I think 186 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: Bill Flannagan. You know Flannigan, don't you. Flannagan was doing 187 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: that show Crossroads, and I think he wanted to do 188 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: a Crossroads with Robert and Allison and it ended up 189 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: being a record, and then we did a Crossroads later. 190 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: But I think they met from that idea of Flannagan 191 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: pitching them on doing it. They met and they did 192 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: a They did a tribute to Leadbelly or something or 193 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: somebody up up in Cleveland, I think, and they enjoyed it. 194 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: And then they called me up and said, you want 195 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: to you want to make a record, And I sent 196 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: him those two Gene Clark songs. Those are the first 197 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: two things I sent them Through the Morning Through the 198 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: Not and Polly, which I thought had those that Jane 199 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: had that dark mystical vibe that they both have. You know, 200 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting now to hear Robert sing low and soft 201 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: like that and go back and listen to led Zeppelin. 202 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: It's so beautiful. He really showed another side and it 203 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: felt like a side that just the timing of it 204 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: was right for him, you know, like to hear him 205 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: sound like that was a revelation. Yeah, well he sounded 206 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: like a grown man. Yeah, made sense when before. I mean, 207 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: he says himself that the early led Zebelin records he 208 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: sounded like a castrato or something. You know, he was 209 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: singing so high. Yeah, and I imagine that when he 210 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: sings like that now, it's more like he's imitating the 211 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: old hymn, whereas raising Sand sounds like more believable now. Yeah, 212 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 1: I don't think. I really don't think he could sing 213 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: those songs. He couldn't sing him in the range he 214 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: used to sing him in. You know, same with Elton. 215 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: You know, Elton's voice is dropped good octave or something 216 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: like that, and he's got this beautiful, deep resonant baritone now, 217 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: and you listen to some of the old records, he 218 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: sounds like he's on helium or something. After after getting 219 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: used to his voice now and loving it and going 220 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: back in hearing them, not that they aren't absolutely classic 221 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: and great for the same. Was there any reason you 222 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: didn't do a second one with a follow up to Raisins. 223 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think we may. I think we 224 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: may do one days. I love that maybe we should 225 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: do Maybe we should do it together. Let's do it. 226 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: It's such a beautiful album. Yeah, I would love to 227 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: do one again. We went in and recorded some songs, 228 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: and having been through all the success, so to speak, 229 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: the steaks seemed different when we went on the in 230 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: the second time, and it didn't feel I don't think 231 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: any of us felt the same kind of freedom that 232 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: we'd feel. So interesting, isn't it interesting how how the 233 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: stakes changed the whole process. Yeah? Yeah, but but I 234 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: think now it's been long enough so we probably could 235 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: go in and just just play. You know, that'd be great. 236 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: Do you have ideas of songs? I hadn't thought about 237 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: it that much. I mean, I've just there have just 238 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: been rumblings about about it. So we'll see. We'll see 239 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: where it goes. Have you done any other collaborations like 240 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: that where it's been two artists who don't normally work together. 241 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I have Have you done that? Hm? 242 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: When I see it, remember I've done I've done quite 243 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: a few, you know. The Rolling Thunder review, which was 244 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: this studio was part of that whole time. Yes, that 245 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: was a beautiful experiment and it was a master class 246 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: in art and show business. I mean, there was every 247 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: Alan Ginsburg and Anne Wallman were there. Sam Shephard was there. 248 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: There are incredible musicians. Joni Mitchell was there, and Joe 249 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: Bias and Howie Wyeth and David Mansfield one great musician 250 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: after the Mick Ronson and people from it. Yeah, people 251 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: from all different parts of the world and different disciplines 252 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: in different places, but everybody came together and collaborated and 253 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: it was a it was a tremendous learning experience that 254 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: I've replicated or tried to replicate several times with like 255 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: the Roy Orbison Black and White Night Show, and that 256 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: was incredible too. That was a beautiful, incredible and uh 257 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: I saw it the other day. I was watching it. 258 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen was in the audience. I'd forgotten that. I 259 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: think that idea of like Aerosmith and run DMC. Did 260 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: you have anything to do with that? I suppose, so, yeah, 261 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: I forgot. Yeah, it's hard to think, you know what 262 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to think about projects. Yeah, I 263 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: know exactly. It's hard to even look back at all, 264 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: and I rarely do. Yeah, me too, but but that 265 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: was certainly one of those that changed everything. Yeah, and 266 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: the boys, you know them, doing I'm Down. Yeah, did 267 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: you ever hear that? Oh? Yeah, it never came out. 268 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: It never came out. It never did no, no, no. 269 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: We couldn't get permission. It was supposed to be on 270 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: that first album, Licensed to Ill. It might have been 271 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: the last thing we recorded for it. We couldn't get 272 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: permission and it never came out. But I think it's 273 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: on like YouTube or somewhere. I heard it. Steve Rabovski 274 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: played yeah when it just then yes because guy, yeah, yeah, 275 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: and it was I'm really d you know fully, d 276 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: fully fully remember that's so funny, so funny man, they 277 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: were cutting up. Yeah, I did that. I did the 278 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: guitar solo in the organ solo. Neither are instruments that 279 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: I really play, and it really shows, you know. It's 280 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: like when we come back. T Bone Premiere is another 281 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: brand new song for us, but first we pay the bills. 282 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: We're back and T Bone has another new song to 283 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: play for us called Out of Nowhere, another number from 284 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: the Roy Rogers and Dale Evans musical he's writing for. 285 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: This is the song I realized I needed a song 286 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: to introduce Roy. I didn't really have a powerful number 287 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: to introduce him, and as I said. The guy who 288 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: played named Leonard Sly was a It was a soulful, 289 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: beautiful cat. He wasn't at all like the swashbuck buckling cowboy, 290 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: you know he was. He was different, and so I 291 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: wanted to write something from inside him. Not not about him, yes, 292 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: but for something that he was feeling about his life 293 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: and about where he came from. So this is a 294 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: song called out of Nowhere. Back to that idea you 295 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: were talking about about the way art happens. Yeah, right, 296 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: once you define a thing, you lose it. Yeah, it's 297 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: really hard. Yeah, it's really hard. That's right. Yeah, I 298 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: mean it's it's I think in retrospect, after the moment 299 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 1: of inspiration, where the thing that wants to be revealed 300 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: is revealed and we know we like it, then we 301 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: can maybe try to figure out why we like it 302 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: and you know, and then it's okay. But I think 303 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: the other way around is very difficult. Yeah. I don't 304 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: know if it even happens. I don't know what I 305 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: think artists do. I think all really artists do is 306 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: we're going down a road and we we mark things, 307 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: we say at this day, I was at this place 308 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: and I saw this thing and it was beautiful. Yes, 309 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna mark this so that maybe you 310 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: don't miss it when you're going by. That's I think 311 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: that's the real, the real journey of an artist. I 312 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: can remember seeing French Impressionist paintings of trees in the 313 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: French countryside. I'm thinking it's a very strange decision that 314 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: the artist is making, you know, putting all these different 315 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: blotches of color to make the tree. It's very poetic 316 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: and beautiful, but it's, you know what, a wild imagination. 317 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: And then it went to France. I saw the trees 318 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, that's what they actually look like, 319 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like it seemed like 320 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: the lyrics of songs hit us in this sort of poetic, 321 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: magical way, when often if we hear the story of them, 322 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: they turn out to be very ordinary descriptions of what 323 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: really happened. It's I guess maybe it's the information that's 324 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: left out that makes them seem so magical. Yeah, I 325 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: think that's right. I do think that's an interesting observation. 326 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: I do think that's right. In this song that you 327 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: just sang, the hook has a repetition of a phrase 328 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: the first song you play did not have that. Isn't 329 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: it interesting that when writing words that certain words can 330 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: be repeated often and it feels really good, And other 331 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: words you repeat them and it feels like you can 332 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: never repeat them. Some thing's become a chant and they've 333 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: fallen really naturally. Yeah, it's the melody of the thought. 334 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: It's the melody of the of the of the expression. Yeah. 335 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Maybe the phrasing as well, the way the way they 336 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: work rhythmically. Interesting. You're pretty good at this. That's very interesting. 337 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: Never thought of it at all, neither. I'm thinking of 338 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: it right now. Part of the conversation. That's what's coming 339 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: out from listening to the song. It's like, excellent, how 340 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: does that work? How do we do that? I've noticed 341 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: the difficulty in it, but I've never thought about why. 342 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: But that one, this one here, I don't know. That's 343 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: just something that became very important to me, that idea, 344 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: and it was important in context. It was important for 345 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: Roy Rogers because he for him, everything just happened out 346 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: of nowhere. Yes, right, so it was important and for 347 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: him to embrace that idea. And but then it happened, 348 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the Raising Sand record happened out of nowhere. Yeah, right, 349 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: just I think the best the best things do. Yeah, 350 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: that's right, they really do. They're not they're not they're 351 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: not conceived or exactly, they're just they're helped and do existence. Yeah, 352 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: And the intention behind them is a beautiful intention. But 353 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: the intention didn't control it happening. It's more like maybe 354 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: it allowed it allowed it to be revealed. Maybe just 355 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: got to roll in in the first place. And also 356 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: in the first song, if we were making a record 357 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: together and if I was producing it, I would have 358 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: suggested repeating the tag at the end of the first piece, 359 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: I'll do that. Well. Well, it depends though, because in 360 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: the context of it, and I was specific about if 361 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: we were making a record together, it would be the 362 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: purpose of the song would be different than the way 363 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: it would be in a play. Like in a play, 364 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just thinking about it. It's like 365 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: the structure and a play might be different than the 366 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: normal song structure wants to accomplish a different purpose and 367 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: we won't know until we get it up and we're Yeah, 368 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: I think the idea of making art, like you were 369 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: saying earlier about on the Raising Sand album, mistakes got high, 370 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: and then it changed because there was an expectation. I 371 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: like to say, and I have said it before to 372 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: artists that I've worked with, is when we're making these things, 373 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: the audience comes last. That's what I think too. I agree, 374 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: I agree. I don't believe you can do it for 375 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: the audience, No, because I don't think we're I know 376 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: that if we can make something that we like, there's 377 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: a better chance that someone else is going to like 378 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: it than if we make what we that we don't like, 379 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: but we think someone else is going to like, that 380 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: seems impossible. That's that's one of the problems with you know, 381 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: working in television is there's a there are a lot 382 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: of people that think they know what the audience wants, 383 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: and they're always trying to get you to do the 384 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: thing the audience wants. And television is a big collaborative medium, 385 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: and you know, I love to collaborate, and I love 386 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: to collaborate with large groups, but it is it's a 387 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: process of it's not a process of starting with the 388 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: audience and then working backward. If you want to make 389 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: something good, right and and what audience is like is 390 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: something good? Absolutely, so your real your real obligation or 391 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: responsibility to the artist is to make a thing you 392 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: really love that. If you do that, then there's a 393 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: really good chance they'll really love it as well. Hopefully, 394 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: so at least chance. Yeah, at least you've got a chance. 395 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: And I feel like as a record producer, I often 396 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: feel like a proxy for the audience, you too, Right's 397 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: I'm not really a musician, So all I am is 398 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: a glorified fan, you know, That's really what I am. Well, 399 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: you're a listener, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I listen and 400 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: I try to understand. I can tune into what pulls 401 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: me into something and what pushes me away, and I 402 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: just really trust whatever that is. Yeah, right, I don't. 403 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: I never know why. Yeah, but you've learned to trust 404 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: your instincts. That's a valuable that's a valuable thing. Most 405 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: people don't. That's one of the things. One of the 406 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: things an artist tests to know how to do is 407 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: trust his instinct. All the best art is second nature. 408 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: It's made by second nature. It's not made consciously in 409 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: that way. That's why I say artist. The artist role 410 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: is the goal of artist to create conscience, not consciousness. Yeah, 411 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: it's to create it's to create the thing where you feel, 412 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: the thing, where you where you empathize, where you say yeah, 413 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: that's right, that's true, or that's beautiful. You don't do that. 414 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: That's not a conscious decision. It's an internal, instinctive, instinctual decision. Yeah. 415 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: It was something that I noticed relatively early in the 416 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: working with different artists. That was interesting was one of 417 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: the bands I worked with was called Slayer, heavy metal band, 418 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: very one of the inventors of black metal or you know, 419 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: like very very aggressive metal, and the lyrics were really 420 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: dark and heavy, and to some people, they would look 421 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: at that as negative content. And then I would go 422 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: to a concert and I would see an arena full 423 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: of kids who were very much like the guys in Slayer, 424 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: who were so filled with joy listening to this music. 425 00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: It was speaking directly to them. It completely was nourishing them. Right. 426 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: Kumbaya would not have reached them, just made them angry. Yeah, 427 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: So it's like it's almost like beyond what the actual 428 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: content is, it's more like how does whatever the art 429 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: is resonate with other people? And you know, I personally 430 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: don't like to see horror movies. I don't like to 431 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: see images of violence at all, horror violence or any 432 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: So I almost never go to the movies other than 433 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: maybe documentaries. But for some people that experience of feeling 434 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the thrill, they really that really moves them. They like it. 435 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: But again I don't I don't know that there's a 436 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: there's not a right and a wrong, and there's not 437 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: a positive and a negative in it. It's more like 438 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: it really is what entertains people and whatever stuff happened 439 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: in their life that led them to a place where 440 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: this darker thing speaks to them. In their case, it's 441 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: it's healing to hear it. They don't they feel less alone? Right, Yeah, 442 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: that's right, that's you know the I've called my new 443 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: but the new stuff I'm working on with Kifis and Jay, 444 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: I've called it the Invisible Light. And I feel that 445 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: it's because of that very thing you're talking about, because 446 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: the what it's say, the words are very dark. The 447 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: world it's talking about is very dark. But if you 448 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: listen into it, there's a great deal of light. Invisible light, yes, right, beautiful, 449 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: but you have to find your way into it. If 450 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: you just if you just take it all at face value, 451 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: or if you try to approach it pedantically, You'll just say, well, 452 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: this is this is a dark, dark world. Well, it 453 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: is a dark world, but there's also you know, there's 454 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: all of that. There's the ocean, in the trees, in 455 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: the sky, and I think it's all it's all like 456 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I think it's all just a 457 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: reflection of what's going on. You know, It's like, that's right. 458 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: There's tremendous beauty in the world, and there's really bad 459 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: stuff going on, and all of that warrants being reflected back. 460 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know. I was I've been going around 461 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: recently and most of the music I'm hearing in supermarkets 462 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: and department stores and those things, just going around life. 463 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: Most of it that I'm hearing is from the nineteen sixties, 464 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: and I'm curious about that because the nineteen sixties were 465 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: maybe the last time there was this sort of exuberance 466 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: about art. I was at Whole Foods the other day 467 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: and they were playing good Love and I Want to 468 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: Hold Your Hand and those kinds of songs, and it 469 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: was it lightened the feeling in the place. And there 470 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: really hasn't been that particular aspect of music since the 471 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties that I can think of, no, And it's 472 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: also it's also a time beyond what the lyrical content was, 473 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: when the industry was still small and the stakes were low, 474 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: and the people making that music probably were making it 475 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: for themselves or for their friends or for you know, 476 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: the high school dance. They weren't making it to sell 477 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: out arenas, because nobody had done that exactly everything. It 478 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: seems that anything when it starts, it's small and has 479 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 1: beautiful intention and integrity in it, and then when it 480 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: gets big and a lot of people are involved, that 481 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: just dissipates. Just in any organization. This is one of 482 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: the reasons I love as a producer. I love making 483 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: records with first records with artists because you're dealing with 484 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: an artist who's been working under complete autonomy for a 485 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: number of years and he doesn't have experts telling him 486 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: what the audience wants, for instance. Yes, So I've had 487 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: very several, very sick, successful first records with artists that 488 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: were tremendous fun and I still love today because because 489 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: of that, they're not they're unself conscious. Yes, no baggage, right, Yeah, 490 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: I've worked with both artists for the first time many 491 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: artists and many successful artists, and it is you know, 492 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: existing artists. And it's definitely true that with a new 493 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: artist there's a freedom of how is this going to work? 494 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: Whereas with the with the established artists, there's often a 495 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: lot of bad habits to have to unlearned. Yeah. Yeah, 496 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: just playing in front of twenty or thirty thousand people 497 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: will create something that does something to your brain. Well, 498 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: it makes you, it make it can make you be 499 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: too broad. Yeah. And in the studio this is you know, 500 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: the studio is like a it's like a film, you know, 501 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: like you get right in on a person, you're closer 502 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: right by them, you're you know, they're singing in your ear. 503 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: In a large concert, you know, it's like a theater, 504 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: it's a you're projecting out into the last row. Yes, 505 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: So it's a very different it's a very different discipline. 506 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: And playing for large crowds and having to gm them 507 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: up night after night could really give you some bad habits. 508 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: On the other hand, working with seasoned artists can be 509 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: absolutely the best because there because they're just good. Absolutely. 510 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: I was going to say when you mentioned the work 511 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: that I did with Johnny and a lot of a 512 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: lot of especially in the beginning when we started working together, 513 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: it was getting him to perform the songs less. Yeah, 514 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, sell the songs, just to tell it. Just 515 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: tell me. I'm sitting right here next to you. And 516 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: then we were sitting on a couch just seeing me this, 517 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: just tell me the story of the song. You don't 518 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: have to perform it. And his recordings because the tape 519 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: was rolling all the time, and he would always say 520 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: to himself, get off stage, cash, get off stage. Yeah. 521 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: He was a character, wouldn't what a lost? Tremendous loss 522 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: that was, Yeah, beautiful. He was amazing. Yeah, I think 523 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: he would have been. Anything he would have done would 524 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: have been good because it was him. It wasn't. It 525 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: wasn't that he was the best musician or the best singer. 526 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: It was he showed through what he made. He chose that. 527 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: But anything he would have chose would have been great. 528 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: You know, Sam Shepard and I were doing a play 529 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: up in New York Tooth of Crime, and he called 530 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: me up to write music for it. And I was 531 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: at the time in my life when I couldn't I 532 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: didn't know what music was anymore. I couldn't tell why 533 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: one note should be here, and another note should shouldn't 534 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: be there. You know, every note was the same, and 535 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: no notes were even notes. I was let I was 536 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: letting go of the idea of pitch entirely and just 537 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: working purely off tone. And I was at sea, and 538 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: I said, and we were sitting in a theater somewhere, 539 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: and I said to say, I mean, you know, I 540 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: don't even know what music is anymore, man, And he said, well, 541 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: when you do it, that's what it is. And that 542 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: that was the most freeing thing anybody ever said to 543 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: me in my life. And and and that's what I think. 544 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: That's the thing we can help artists get to that point. 545 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: I want to help other artists with that same that 546 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: same vote of confidence or that same lack of questioning. 547 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Rick's conversation with t 548 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: Bone after this. We're back with more Rick Rubin and 549 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: t Bone Burnett. What was your entry into music? I 550 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: don't know any of it. I don't know. I mean, 551 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: I've known you for so long, but that I know 552 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: you as de Bone Burnett, I don't know how you 553 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: became Well, my first entry into music was my parents 554 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: had a great seventy eight collection, and I used to 555 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: sit down and listen to all the Lewis Armstrong records 556 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: in Ella Fitzgerald the song There were great American songbook 557 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: records in Texas, in Texas and Fort Worth, and and 558 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: and I was. I was moved by the way there 559 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: was a song, there was a cold Porter song I 560 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: think called begin the Beginning, you know that tune, and 561 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: I would listen to it and I'd be immediately transported 562 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: to some tropical island somewhere, And I was. I was 563 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: amazed at the way music could create place, could create 564 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: an atmosphere and an environment, and you could close your 565 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: eyes and I would no longer be in Fort Worth, Texas, 566 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: which was to me a great relief. Fort Worth at 567 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: the time had a very low ceiling, and it felt 568 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: like it felt like anything that was happening in the 569 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: world was happening somewhere far away, and there was no 570 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: way to get there. But music was a window or 571 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: a door out into the into these other places, into 572 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: the world. And that that wasn't the music of the 573 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: day though, No, it was that you were listening to 574 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: older even then it was old music. Yeah, yeah, it 575 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: was old music. Then what was what was the music 576 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: of the day when you were young. Well, it was 577 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: like Elvis Presley and Ricky Nelson. I loved Ricky Nelson, 578 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: I love personally. I loved Ricky more than Elvis because 579 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: he was on television and he sang a great song 580 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: every week. And I didn't I didn't really understand Elvis. 581 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: He seemed he seemed broad to me, whereas Ricky was 582 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: cool and understated. You know, so my aesthetics sort of 583 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: went that direction. I learned to appreciate Elvis, of course, 584 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: much more later when I when I got when I 585 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: got way into the especially that stuff he did with 586 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: Sam Phillips, who was also It wasn't Sam Phillips a 587 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: great inspiration to you. I mean I feel like, you know, 588 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: he was a guy who, like you, didn't recognize race boundaries. 589 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: He was he was. Sam Phillips was a great civil 590 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: rights leader. Actually, you know, he had the first all 591 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: women radio station, w h e R in Memphis, and 592 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: he brought he brought Helen Wolf into the studio when 593 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: Helen Wolf might have scared the pants off of most 594 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: white people at the time. I mean it was a big, tough, 595 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: strong black man in the South. But he but Sam 596 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: embraced him, and embraced Ike Turner and brought all these 597 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: incredible musicians into the studio and opened up the world 598 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: to them and them to the world. You know, absolutely, 599 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: and I admire that you've done very much the same thing. 600 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: You you just you've crossed those boundaries just naturally, like 601 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 1: I have eclectic taste and I follow my taste. And 602 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: it's not there's no political underpinnings, no, you know, it's 603 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: just we also had Sam yeah, you know, to start 604 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: at start it that way, and John Hammond before him, Yeah, 605 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: John Hammond incredible. John Hammond was a uptown New York 606 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: establishment guy who went down to the village and found 607 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: Billie Holiday. And you know, music's always done that though. 608 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: Music the thing. Tony Bennett, you know, has an art 609 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: school and he says the great thing about art and 610 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: he's a good painter, He's a very good painter. He says, 611 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: a great thing about art is you're either good or 612 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: you're not good. And it doesn't matter where you're from, 613 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: or what what your ethnicity is or any of that. 614 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: It's just good or not good. And it feels like 615 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: the the relationships that I have with artists have have 616 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: nothing to do with anything other than our love of music. 617 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: And it doesn't you know, it doesn't matter where they're 618 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: from or what the back ground is, or it doesn't matter. Right, 619 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: we're not talking about that, you know, We're talking about music. 620 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: That's right, and we're either on the same page or not, 621 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: and that's all and that's good too, Like whether we 622 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: are or not, it's all fun, you know exactly. I'm 623 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: not trying to convince anybody of anything. Yeah, that's right. 624 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: Willie Dixon. I got to work with Willie Dixon at 625 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,439 Speaker 1: and one of the things he would say is if 626 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: that's the way you like it, I like it. Yeah, 627 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: And I love that. Yeah, that's that's generous. That's a 628 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: deep generous yeah, you know, yeah, so beautiful. Okay, So 629 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: Elvis is on the radio and Ricky Nelson's on the radio. 630 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 1: You're listening to seventy Big Band seventy eight's, yeah, stuff 631 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: like that. What was your first music related gig and 632 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: your first instrument? Oh, well, you know, I was one day. 633 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: I was at a friend's house and there was a 634 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: Gibson guitar much like this one leaning against a wall 635 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: and I hit the east like that, and oh it 636 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: just just something about hitting that one note was like 637 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: a key that unlocked a door that led me through 638 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: my whole life. And once I started playing guitar, when 639 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: I was about twelve, I started listening to guitar players, 640 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: and that's when I, you know, I learned how to 641 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: play wildwood Flower by the Carter family, which Maybell Carter 642 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: is essentially the mother of rock and roll guitar. You know, 643 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 1: every rock and roll guitar player I know learned to 644 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: play wildwood Flower first or very soon thereafter. And so 645 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: I started listening to the Carter family, and I started 646 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: listening to Hank Williams and that stuff because it was 647 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: on the radio and there was a lot of interesting 648 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: pop music. There was. Peggy Lee was interesting at the 649 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: time of the fifties. She was really killer great. And 650 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: then the Beatles happened, you know, and that changed everything. 651 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: That that really did, that changed the world. I look 652 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: at those I look at those clips now, the Beatles 653 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: playing for audiences of young girls, and the girls are screaming, 654 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: and some of them look like they're screaming at a 655 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: horror movie. And I and I feel like there was 656 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: that moment, there was that confluence of events of the 657 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: Kennedy assess the first Kennedy assassination, and the Beatles coming 658 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: out in the wake of that. That was was once 659 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: again them Metalloys. Yeah, it was it was them. It 660 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: was a Catharsis in them mythologizing this horror for us 661 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,399 Speaker 1: in a in a beautiful way and and singing these 662 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: joyful songs in the wake of this, of this great tragedy. 663 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: And again, you know, none of these like again, looking back, 664 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: we can see just happened, and this was we can 665 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: call it a reaction, but I don't think it was 666 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: a intellectual reaction, not at all. No, nobody was connecting 667 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: the two at the time. But I think in retrospect 668 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: it's hard not to connect with right, It's fascinating. So yeah, 669 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: so those those things, I mean, sometimes we can see 670 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: around corners, I know, you see around corners occasionally and 671 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: you think, oh, I see where this fits and this works. 672 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: I've had that happen a couple of times, but most 673 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: of the time I certainly didn't. With raising Sand for instance, 674 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: I didn't see around that corner. I just thought this 675 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: is something to do. Yeah, yeah, these two sound good together, 676 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:42,839 Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. But so did you join a band Yeah. 677 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: Then at that point I was already I was already 678 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: in a little band, and we were playing mostly surf 679 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: music at the time. Because I got an electric guitar, 680 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: I got a melody maker, playing flat, flat wound strings 681 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: on a melody maker, and there were all those great 682 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: surf to dunes that had they were all in the 683 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: big string. Oh, I left out Jimmy Reid. Who Jimmy 684 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: Reid for me was that's actually probably ground zero. That's 685 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: after I learned may Bill Carter. I learned Jimmy Reid, 686 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: and then that opened up a whole other world of 687 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: R and B deep R and B and how old 688 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: were you about this time, probably twelve or thirteen, you know, 689 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: And the Beatles. Actually, one of the things I loved 690 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 1: about the Beatles was they sounded like Jimmy Reid. They 691 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: played the low strings on the guitar, they played flat 692 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: wound strings on the bottom of the guitar like Jimmy Reid. 693 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: And he also it was also just the groove, you know, 694 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: the pocket. They played in a similar pocket to him. 695 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: I feel like they must have listened to him. I certainly. 696 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: Once I got into Jimmy Reid, I devoured everything, everything 697 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: I learned every possible song and Chuck barring that was 698 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: the other kid. The swing of the Beatles is undeniable. 699 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: People don't really talk about it. Yeah, yeah, the songs 700 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 1: are killer, but you know, and Ringo was you know 701 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: he played with sister Rosetta Tharp when he was the 702 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 1: house drummer. Yeah, when he was the house drummer at 703 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: the Cavern Club. He played with all the R and 704 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: b X that would come through, So he got a 705 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: real he had it. He's probably just innate with him, 706 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: but he swung so hard. And I was watching Ron 707 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: Howard's documentary of Eight Days a Week about the Beatles, 708 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: and I realized, Oh, the three geniuses up front were killing, 709 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 1: but Ringo was supplant. Was all the electricity was coming 710 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: out of Ringo. He was blowing everybody's mind without us 711 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: even knowing it. Now, looking back on it, after all 712 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: these years of listening to everything, I can see it. 713 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: At the time, I couldn't. Well, I knew. I love 714 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: the way he I loved the way he attacked his 715 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: high hat friends, and he just had it kind of 716 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: going solid. It wasn't it was, you know, So that 717 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: supplied a lot of electricity and excitement, but also just 718 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: his just his yeah, his thing. You know, he would 719 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: hit the bass drum boom, you know, it's just like 720 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: kill it. And the other cats were killing it too, 721 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: but he was just he was the really electric part 722 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: of it, I thought, and but so yeah, so when 723 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: that happened, then then you know, Oh, the other guy 724 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: before the Beatles was Buddy Holly, who they also wanted 725 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: to be. You know, we were playing Buddies from Texas. 726 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: So was there this feeling of definitely he was one 727 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: of the cats that that made me feel like, oh, 728 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: I can get out, I can get out from under 729 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: this low ceiling. Yes, Buddy Holly could do it. Yes, 730 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:57,439 Speaker 1: you know it's it's possible. Yeah. That was T bom 731 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: Bernett talking with my co host Rick Rubin at Shanger 732 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,280 Speaker 1: Law in Malibu. His new album, Invisible Light Acoustic Space 733 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: is out now and available wherever you get your music. 734 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: You can also visit our website to find a Spotify 735 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 1: playlist for the album and also a playlist for some 736 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 1: of our favorite T Bone productions. Broken Record is produced 737 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrel, with help from MEA Label, 738 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, and Jacob Weisberg Special thanks to 739 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: my co hosts, Rick Rubin and Bruce headlam Our Broken 740 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: Record theme music is by the great Kenny Beats. Be 741 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: sure to check out his new album with rapper Rico Nasty. 742 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: Also be sure to check for next week's episode with 743 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: Linda Perry. She talks with Bruce about being the first 744 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: woman nominated for Producer of the Year at the Grammys 745 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: in fifteen years. That's next week for Pushkin Industries. I'm 746 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell.