1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. Hey, my name is Kobe Bryant, and I 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: love to play basketball and has always been my dream, 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: my go to play in the National Basketball Association ever 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: since I was I was four or five years old, 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: and I've always loved the game. H I love the 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: smell of the love it hardwood, compute on the playground, 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: switching the net. I just I just went with up 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: the game. I don't know where that came from, just 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: always been there. You probably know that voice. That was 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant, basketball superstar for the Los Angeles Lakers, five 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: time NBA champion, eighteen time All Star, Academy Award winning filmmaker, 12 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: children's book author, husband, father, Sometimes a lightning rod for 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: controversy and conflict, always a competitor beyond compare, a global icon. 14 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: When Kobe, his daughter, Gianna, and seven other people died 15 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: in a helicopter crash in January, Kobe was as famous 16 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: as recognizable as any athlete on the planet. Over his 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: two decades with the Lakers, he scored thirty three thousand, 18 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: six hundred and forty three points. That's more than Michael 19 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: Jordan's scored, more than wil Chamberlain scored way more than 20 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: Dr j or Shaquille O'Neil or Larry Bird scored. Kobe 21 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: also won five championships in two Olympic gold medals. His 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: nickname was the Black Mamba because he was so deadly 23 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: when the game mattered most. And you know what's funny 24 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: about that nickname, Kobe gave it to himself, which kind 25 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: of tells you everything you need to know about it. 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: We're just gonna be the same person that I've been 27 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: up to this point in high school basketball player with 28 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: a lot of confidence that went out there and played well. 29 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: I just wanted to win the basketball game, you know, 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be a 31 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: basketball player that just enjoys the player. But the tapes 32 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: you're hearing aren't from the later years of his Lakers career, 33 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: when Kobe was already a celebrity. There from just a 34 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: few years after he and his family moved back to 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: the United States. They've been living in Italy for eight years. 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: Some of the tapes I want to play for you 37 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: are from when Kobe was a senior at Lower Merion 38 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: High School near Philadelphia. Some are from the weeks just 39 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: after he graduated and some are from his first season 40 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: with the Lakers. All of them are from the time 41 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: of his life when he was still just seventeen or 42 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: eighteen years old, when he was just beginning his path 43 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: to glory. Always played basketball. My family moved to Italy. 44 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: I was raised over there. I think Matroy very well 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: over there, fascinating anybody else here in American media, And 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: when I came back, I had to addapt the lifestyle 47 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: became the basketball because it was totally different, more and 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: fast paid. Life was more upbeat playing a basketball for 49 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: it was more physical, had a baptis both frames. That 50 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: was the thing about Kobe. He practically grew up before 51 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: our eyes. We saw his greatest moments, like when he 52 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: scored eighty one points in one game against the Toronto 53 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: Raptors in two thousand six, or when he scored sixty 54 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: points in his final game for the Lakers against the 55 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: Utah Jazz ten years later, and we saw his worst moments, 56 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: his arrest for sexual assault and the resulting scandal that 57 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: bled from two thousand three into two thousand four. At best, 58 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: for his most devoted fans, it remained yeah but in 59 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: fact about him for the rest of his life. At worst, 60 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: it was an alleged act so reprehensible that to some 61 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: people it turned him into a villain forever. No matter 62 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: what your perspective is on Kobe, though, you have to 63 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: admit that he was more than just famous. He was 64 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: a fascinating figure. And these tapes I'm going to play 65 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: for you over the course of this series provide a 66 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: glimpse of Kobe that few people had while he was alive. 67 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: This is Kobe as he was, but more than that, 68 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: this is Kobe as he was figuring out who he 69 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: would be. I'm Mike Sealski and from Diversion podcasts, this 70 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: is I am Kobe. I the right to create myself, 71 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: create yourself, stay nice and go on, create yourself. You 72 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: gotta learn from the great minds so we gain't sell them. 73 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: That's getting time Episode one. The tapes step between the court, 74 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: the topic that just put out your problems sides black 75 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: half a good time and you get home and try 76 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: to work things out, trying to see what the problem is. 77 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: But I probably the ton of gone. Yeah. Let it 78 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: affect you as a first, the problem as you have 79 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: the making weak, make you short, and you have to 80 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: know where the channel. Little problems telling right, So where 81 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: did these tapes come from? Well, to answer that, let's 82 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: introduce you to another important character in the story. I 83 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: mean he absolutely new. Yeah. I mean if your expectations 84 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: you're going to jump from HIG school NBA, and you 85 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: yourself know you're different and you're special, and I think 86 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 1: he knew that, and he knew his talents or amazing. 87 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: That's Jeremy treatment. You probably haven't heard of him, not 88 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: unless you've immersed yourself and all the details of Kobe's 89 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: life story or in the history and culture of Philadelphia 90 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: area high school basketball. Jeremy has been a mover and 91 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: shaker in that world for about a quarter century. These days, 92 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: he has a company that arranges, organizes, promotes, and televises 93 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: high school and college basketball tournaments. Lebron James, Kevin Durant, 94 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: Dwight Howard, all of them played in games in high 95 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: school that Jeremy set up. He founded a camp for 96 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: teenagers who want to become play by play voices, and 97 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: he gets some of the biggest names in the business 98 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: to speak to the kid. Adam Schefter, Tracy Wolfson, Charles Barkley. 99 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with Scottie Barnes at a Florida State 100 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: in the figure process. In this draft, Scottie Barnes is 101 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: a six eight small authorities about He's absolutely a fletted 102 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: demon and its upside the strigger route. But for the 103 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: SBC radio show make sure you call us seven three 104 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: to four, Jeremy is high intensive Martin. He'll admit to 105 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: you he can come off a little bit neurotic at times. 106 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: That's how he's been able to build his career. And 107 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: that career began back in the fall of when he 108 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: was twenty six years old writing for the Philadelphia Inquiry 109 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: and he met a fourteen year old kid named Kobe Bryant. 110 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: Thank you, hey, we want to leave him in there 111 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: for section I'm to tell you let me put him in. 112 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: Christ Jeremy and I met up one afternoon in August 113 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: one at his brother's house on Long Beach hild in 114 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Chucky, Jeremy's ten year old chocolate lab joined 115 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: us too. What you just heard is removing two large 116 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: zip lock bags full of micro cassette tapes, tapes that 117 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: I used to write a book about Kobe, tapes that 118 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: you'll hear throughout this series. Tapes that Jeremy made Jeremy 119 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: didn't just meet Kobe, he coached Kobe, and he became 120 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: a confident onto Kobe. They were close friends, so close 121 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: that the two of them roomed together during a trip 122 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: to South Carolina when the Lower Marion Aces went down 123 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: there for a tournament. So close that when Kobe decided 124 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: he was skipping college and going straight to the NBA, 125 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: Jeremy was one of the first people he told. So 126 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: close that during Kobe's senior year of high school and 127 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: his first season with the Lakers, he and Jeremy began 128 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: sitting down for long interviews and collaborating on a book. 129 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: It was Jeremy who was the one asking Kobe questions 130 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: on all those tapes, and there's a line in there 131 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: and a little friend, Jeremy Japan was buying to write 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: a book on him. The book never got written, and 133 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: as the years passed, their relationship changed. In some ways, 134 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: they grew apart. In some ways, you could argue Jeremy 135 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: wasn't really a part of Kobe's life anymore. They didn't 136 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: stay in close contact. Kobe had become a global superstar 137 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: and there were only so many people in his inner 138 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: circle Jeremy really wasn't in Kobe's orbit anymore. When they 139 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: did see each other and interact, there seemed a growing 140 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: distance between them. It was natural, really. Kobe was off 141 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: in l a growing older, moving on from high school 142 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: and Lower Marian winning NBA championships, becoming a star for 143 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: the Lakers, becoming more famous than just about anyone had 144 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: expected him to become, anyone except maybe Kobe himself. All 145 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: the while, Jeremy stayed in the Philadelphia area working in 146 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: the sports media industry, becoming a basketball promoter and entrepreneur. 147 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: The two of them didn't see each other nearly as 148 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: much as they once did. They weren't nearly as close. Hey, okay, now, 149 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: how do you feel about a lot of time. But 150 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: Jeremy's loyalty to Kobe and the Bryant family never wavered. 151 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Whenever Kobe was in the news for one reason or 152 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: another and CNN wanted to talk to someone about him, 153 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: Jeremy was just a phone call away, happy to describe 154 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: who Kobe was as a kid, and to explain how 155 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: that young Kobe was connected to this grown up Kobe. 156 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: And think about it, if you were Jeremy treating why 157 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: would you want that connection to Kobe to be severed. 158 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: You were at the ground floor for one hell of 159 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: a rocket ride. So we hand me He's uh. I 160 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: was like, you know, there was a time I really 161 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: was close to Kobe Bryant. This was the time, you know, 162 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: this is the thirty tapes, just me and him sitting 163 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: there talking and nobody else before. And you get into 164 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: the n B a while he was in high school, 165 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: actually when it was in the NBA first two years 166 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: and this is just company I think a four or 167 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: five year period. Um, it was a special time, you know, 168 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: to be like a small part of history of like 169 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: one of the most iconic people ever live in his 170 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: or her profession, in this case basketball, it's kind of 171 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: an amazing thing. Hey, this is Mike Selsky, host and 172 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: writer of I Am Kobe. This podcast project came out 173 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: of my work on a related book called The Rise 174 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant and the Pursuit of Immortality. If you want 175 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: to explore other parts of Kobe's story, check out The Rise. 176 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: It's not just a book version of the podcast. I 177 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: dive deeper into some of the topics covered in this series, 178 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: and even some that we don't cover at all. Kobe's upbringing, 179 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: his family, his identity, his effect on his friends and teammates, 180 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: his journey into the NBA, and his earliest days with 181 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: the Lakers. The Rise Kobe Bryant, It and the Pursuit 182 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: of Immortality is out now. Just head over to the 183 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: Rise of Kobe book dot com and you can buy 184 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: it from any of your favorite retailers. That's the Rise 185 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: of Kobe Book dot com. Thanks. My name is Mike Sealsky. 186 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: I've covered sports in the Philadelphia area for more than 187 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: twenty years, the last eight as a columnist for The 188 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: Philadelphia Inquiry. Philadelphia is as sports crazed as any city 189 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: in the country, and as a columnist, I have the 190 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: freedom to weigh in on the Eagles in the fall, 191 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: the Sixers and Flyers in the winter, and the Phillies 192 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: in the summer. It's the job I always wanted. My 193 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: favorite part of it, though, is being able to tell 194 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: a story, especially a human one, A story that's not 195 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: really about sports, A story that has a new and 196 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: unique angle on a person or a topic that has 197 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: already been covered a lot. A person, for instance, like 198 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant. I covered Kobe sporadically throughout his twenty year 199 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: career in the NBA, usually when the Lakers were in town. 200 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: I was there in Philadelphia to cover the two thousand 201 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: one NBA Finals when the Lakers faced the Sixers. During 202 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: one press conference, Kobe told Sixers fans that he planned 203 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: to cut their hearts out, and then he did. The 204 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: Lakers won the series, Kobe's second championship in five games, 205 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: celebrating on the Sixers home court. I was there in 206 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: the Lakers locker room in March two thousand seven. Things 207 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: between Kobe and the team were rocky there, and he 208 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: was still trying to cleanse himself of the stain of 209 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: the sexual assault charges and scandal in Colorado a few 210 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: years earlier. The Lakers lost to the Sixers that night 211 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: in Philly, and I asked Kobe after that game if 212 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: he had given any thought to finishing his career with 213 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: his hometown team. He told me, it would be nice 214 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: to play here. In high school, It's all I thought about. 215 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: And I was there in December for Kobe's final NBA 216 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: game in Philadelphia. During a press conference before that game, 217 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: he recalled his fondness for playing in his hometown before 218 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: coming to this arena, there are some of the behind 219 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: the scenes things that maybe people that you've known since 220 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: you grew up here do for you, or or some 221 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: of the fun things that happened to open man. Every 222 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: time I come here, there's there's fresh press sit at 223 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: the top of while you played with a lot of 224 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: great I knew Jeremy treatment too. I met him in 225 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: when I was in college, just starting my writing career, 226 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: not long after Kobe had finished high school, just after 227 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: one journey had ended and just before another began. Jeremy 228 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: had tried to co author Kobe's memoir in the late 229 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and when that didn't work out, he approached 230 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: me in two thousand mine about collaborating on a book. 231 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: It would focus exclusively on Kobe's senior year in high school. 232 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: Jeremy was crushed that he couldn't find the tapes of 233 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: the interviews he conducted with Kobe all those years before, 234 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: but he did have transcripts of several of them. He 235 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: had remained in close contact with many members of Lower 236 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: Marian's state championship team, including Greg Downer, Kobe's coach. Of course, 237 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: I had to ask, would Kobe help us? Not much, 238 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: Jeremy told me, but we knew he returned to the 239 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: Philadelphia area at least once a year and often visited 240 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: Lower Merian when he was in town. Maybe we could 241 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: catch him for a couple of minutes at his old 242 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: high school or in the locker room after a game. 243 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: It would be enough. We could do this. Actually, no, 244 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: we couldn't, at least not. In two thousand nine, I 245 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: was offered and I accepted a new job in New York, 246 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: and I had to relocate Jeremy and I scuttled the project. 247 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: Kobe's death, though, gave his life a new, more intense residence. 248 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: Writing about him as a columnist, I could go and 249 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: had gone, only so deep. There was so much more there. 250 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: It seems certain anecdotes about him had been repeated incessantly 251 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: over time, as if those memories alone explained it. But 252 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: what about the forces and circumstances and people who had 253 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: shaped him before he was even born. What kind of 254 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: effected growing up when he did, where he did have 255 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: on him, What people influenced him when he was younger, 256 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: and how did he in turn influence them. There was 257 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: so much of the man we still didn't know or 258 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: had forgotten, especially from those all important formative years before 259 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: he was the Black Mamba. Here's Kobe speaking to Charlie 260 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: Rose in a two thousand, one sixty minutes interview about 261 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: how growing up in Italy influenced him. I learned Italianan 262 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: started for his great over here in the Italian school. 263 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: I was six with seven eight. What influence you think 264 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: could had on you? I think it made me more mature. 265 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: You know, we had to grow up a lot faster. 266 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: I think it uh, it brought us closer together as 267 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: a family, because that's moving out there into a whole 268 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: another world. We didn't speak the language, we didn't know anybody. 269 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: We had to buy them with one another. More so 270 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: than anything, Kobe entered the NBA when he was just 271 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: seventeen years old, which made it seem as if he'd 272 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: sprouted fully formed from a hill in Hollywood. People got 273 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: to see his triumphs the Lakers have one back in 274 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: the A Championship and their six game overall, and they 275 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: got to follow his controversies in the case. The whole 276 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: country is watching new details and new questions about the 277 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: accuser or of NBA star Kobe Bryant, and they saw 278 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: him become a lightning rod and for many people. He 279 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: remained one for the rest of his life. When Jack 280 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: sits up there and says that Kobe didn't want to 281 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: give him the ball during the final series that they 282 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: lost the five games in Detroit, pistons, I'll be dead 283 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: if he's lying. But I knew there was also a 284 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: compelling story about his life before the Lakers. It was 285 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: a story worth telling with as much honesty and accuracy 286 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: as possible. You can send Kobe's passion for basketball in 287 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: this clip from NBC ten Philadelphia, when he was just 288 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: a kid with aspirations to make it to the NBA. 289 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: But the superhero tonight was Kobe the Junior simply refused 290 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: to lose as he took over the game in funch time, 291 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: pouring in eighteen fourth quarter points, pouring the aces ahead 292 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: every time lower Marian needed a bucket number thirty three? 293 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: What deliver? So I started researching and writing my own 294 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: book about Kobe, and I found that there were people 295 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: who were eager to help me. Jeremy Treatment was one 296 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: of those people. He gave me the transcripts of his 297 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: interviews with Kobe. They were terrific, really insightful, and I 298 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: was trucking along with my manuscript. As Christmas approached, my 299 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: book deadline less than two months away. Then Jeremy called 300 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: me on December. He was about to move from his 301 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: townhouse in Philadelphia, which he had owned for years, to 302 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: poke a raton Florida. He'd been cleaning out his garage 303 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: and loading up his car for the trick. I'm an 304 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: extremely hard worker. Think that's done very well for myself. 305 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I've never moved on 306 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: is procrastinating. More procrastinators Mike Selski has found out. So 307 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: when I decided to move, and I just kept looking 308 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: at my garage, looking at my garage, I said, somebody's 309 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: gotta get somebody's gotta do this. Who can I hire? 310 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: Who can I get the diva? Like you know, there's 311 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: only one person who can do this and go through 312 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: seventy boxes in my garage, and that's Jeremy Treeman. I'm 313 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: the only one who knows what to throw out, what 314 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: to do. So I had to make myself do it 315 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: because I was out. I had a band coming to 316 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: move the stuff, and so I went down to my 317 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: crawl space. I said, I'm gonna look for these Kope 318 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: tapes one more time. They're in that crawl space. I 319 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: know I put him there because thats where I put 320 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: my old tapes, all my games, my videos, all my 321 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: articles are athlone, all these magazines I wrote for in 322 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: the nineties and early two thousands. And I found all 323 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: that stuff except the tapes. And I went down there again. 324 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: I risked smashing my head down there and could barely 325 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: There's barely a light on, and I couldn't find it. 326 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: I was frustrated, and then I, you know, I was. 327 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: I was going through these boxes boxes. I was about 328 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: a day a day and a half away from leaving, 329 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: and I found a bunch of copy stuff, including the 330 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: sign cards and the Magic Johnson. I knew where those were. 331 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: The Magic Johnson signed covered those. I knew where they were. 332 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: I always had those a protective um. And then I 333 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: was just moving things and I go, oh my god, 334 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: micro cassettes, microssettes, shelf to back back wall, this is it. 335 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: And I looked at once, said Kobe on it. Then 336 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: I was like, no, it can't be. I was like yes, yes, 337 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: And I was like we called we called Pam. Now 338 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: I can't call it him. Alright, let me call Mike Selski. 339 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm still surprised I didn't drop the phone. Early the 340 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: next morning, I drove forty five minutes from my home 341 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: to Jeremy's. Both of us massed against COVID. He reached 342 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: into a cardboard box on a shelf and removed a 343 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: plastic zip bag of micro cassettes, twenty of them at all, 344 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: and the device he had used to record. The recorder 345 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: didn't have batteries. It didn't even have a panel for 346 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: the opening where you insert the batteries. Some of the 347 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: cassettes had Kobe written on them in long faded ink, 348 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 1: one said Joe. Not all of them were interviews with Kobe, 349 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: but enough of them were, and on these cassettes in 350 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: the recordings I eventually spent hundreds of hours listening to, 351 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: there were glimpses of the athlete and the man that 352 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: Kobe became. Yeah, they realized that when the nightly basis, 353 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: God come out and kill you, So you got to 354 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: prepare yourself. Yeah, I think that. I know. I'm going 355 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: to prepare myself if a god comes out and kill me, 356 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit back and kill everything. I can't stop. 357 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: And if you, even if he does like me up 358 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: and have to look at the video team and see 359 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: what did he do that That beat me every time. 360 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: That's how I'm playing every move on. When he touched 361 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: his nose, when he touches there, you know everything Kobe 362 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: said that to Jeremy treatment It's difficult to comprehend how 363 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: long ago that was. Bill Clinton had just been re 364 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: elected president, but the news of the Monica Lewinsky scandal 365 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: hadn't broken yet. The terrorist attacks of September eleventh, two 366 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: one were four years away. Email was still a new, 367 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: exotic technology that most people did news, and Jeremy Treaton 368 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: was tight with the kid who would become the best 369 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: basketball player in the world. This podcast tells the story 370 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: of a friend of Kobe Bryant's who had a front 371 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: row seat for a wild ride few others have witnessed. 372 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: A guy who was Kobe's closest confidante, who knew things 373 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: about Kobe and saw sides of him that no one 374 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 1: else got to see. A guy who will help you 375 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: see the great Kobe Bryant in an entirely new way. 376 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: This series also tells the story of how Kobe Bryant 377 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: prepared himself to become a unique athlete and a larger 378 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: than life figure. You'll meet the Kobe who only so 379 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: many people knew, The Kobe who was a teenager in 380 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: nineties America. The Kobe who was unsure of himself when 381 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: he started high school, who changed a high school basketball 382 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: program and an entire community. The Kobe who dared to 383 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: believe he could become an NBA player without going to 384 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: college at a time when believing such a thing was 385 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: considered crazy. The Kobe who would go on to alter 386 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: professional sports for everyone who followed him, and who transcended 387 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: what it meant to be a professional athlete on the 388 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: world stage. I want to tell you the story of 389 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: the Young Mamba. I Am Kobe is a production of 390 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: The Version podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This 391 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: season is written and hosted by me Mike Sealsky, gets 392 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: produced by Jacob Bronstein and directed by Mark Francis. Story 393 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott Waxman, Editing, 394 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: mixing and sound design by Mark Francis. Stephen Tompkins is 395 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: our production assistant. Our theme music is Create Yourself by 396 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: Grover Brown featuring Justin Starling. Find Create Yourself where ever 397 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: you stream Music. Music supervisor is Scott Velaska's for Free 398 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: Sons Sinking executive producers are Mark Francis and Scott Waxman. 399 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: Join the conversation about I Am Kobe on social media 400 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. It's at Diversion Pods thanks to 401 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: Rain Rosenbaum, Susan Canavan and Jeremy Treatment. I loved Ibries 402 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: before the sun. They don't understand when I said to 403 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: Brian is fun. Never clocked you out. Even when my 404 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: work is done. If they're trying to block me, I 405 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: might hurt someone throw the blood sweat and says, we perseverit, 406 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: stay tending in, let it, keep the horses. And then 407 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: if they don't believe in themselves, jable Verte defend that 408 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: at Sampa, says, so I'm telling them as my a. 409 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: This the reason why I'm I'm working so damn different. 410 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: So the negatives I can't listen to see me at 411 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: the time, you can't listen where I'm anna vote to 412 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: play like cashes see I pay my dudes because of 413 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: Texas gotta work. I thinking briand ahead of his time. 414 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: If I'm saying that they made you, don't tell him 415 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: you ain't yourself the best Finn watch us but this 416 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: bad that time you gotta steak clock, then break clock 417 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: break we create ourselves, watch me question, watch the create myself, 418 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: sat Cli signs up, create yourself, stay nice, ain't go hard, 419 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: create yourself. Gotta learn from the great minds. But we 420 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: ain't lying. Tell them next any time this talent wasn't given, 421 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: it was made. If future, any time I could change, 422 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: you better tell them that I made it back home. 423 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: As I walked through the oars of the fame, I 424 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: came from the valley of the shadow, with death waiting 425 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: for usself. Spoons, don't hold your breath, sat Town sat Train. 426 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: But I did it with less. I know one that 427 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: the being. So there's nothing to guess. Yeah, there's nothing 428 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: to guess. It's all times. So then we up next. 429 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: We don't got any rerests. I did it with my 430 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: soul hands, and we never forgets my an. This the 431 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: reason why my work so damn different to the negatives. 432 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: I can't listen see me at the time. You can't 433 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: listen for where rebuild, reach shape, give me your eye. 434 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: You got to risk take do it now. When I'm 435 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: saying while waves, I'm saying that they made. You don't 436 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: tell them you create yourself the bess you finling. Watch 437 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: us why it's bad that time you gotta steak clock, 438 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: then break clock. Break. We create ourselves, watch me, watch me, 439 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: watch me create myself. Shack climbs. Times up and create yourself. 440 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: Say nice and ain't no hard create yourself. You gotta 441 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: learn from the great minds, so we ain't lying. Tell 442 00:27:43,160 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: them that Game time diversion podcasts