1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Clayton got a question for you. What if I told 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: you that the modern day drug war all began with 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: the NBA draft. You've got to do some more explain. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: So Len Bias was a basketball prodigy. Yeah, I'm an 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: NBA now I've got drafted. Though, now my dream has 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: come true. Len Bias, on his way to becoming a 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: world champion Boston Celtic, died of an apparent heart attack today. 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: Bris So just suffered a seizure from taking too much cocaine. 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: We must be in the tonament of drugs, not because 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: we want to punished drug users, but because we care 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: about them and want to help. Members of Congress are 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: back in New District's campaigning for the nineteen eighty six 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: congressional election and realize if we use this tragic death legislatively, 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: we have the chance to appeal to the American public 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: that we're the anti drug party. What we need is 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: another d Day, not another Vietnam. With the Anti crime Party, 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: we have to hold every drug user accountable. Because there 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: were no drug users, there would be no appetite for drugs, 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: and there'd be no market for them. To be clear, 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: a lot of this was based on a confidential informant 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: that has the name of like a strip club DJ Drew, 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: Saint Valentine Brown and no way, that's your real name, 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: and who lied about his actual expertise on this issue? 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: Is that accurate? That's the essence of it. This is 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: Greg Gold and this is the war on drug Clayton 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: has it going? Man? I'm good man, Greg? What's up? 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: Not much? Um? Really really excited to talk to our 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,919 Speaker 1: guests today, Eric Sterling, I just love like the history 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: of all this stuff and and it's amazing how arbitrary 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: all was, Like why do we have ten year mandatory 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: minimums for this amount of drugs? Why do we have 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: a thirty year Why is crack treated one hundred times 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: worse than cocaine and they're literally this same drug. Yeah, 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: when we were starting this series, one of the things 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: that you said, you know, we had to talk about was, 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, mandatory minimums, right, And what a mandatory minimum 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: really says is that we don't care who you are, 38 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: we don't care why you're here, we don't have any 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: value in your life. You've done this and now you're 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: going to stay in prison for a minimum amount of time, 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: regardless of the facts. And circumstance around your case, regardless 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: if you were a low level person in this organization, 43 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: regardless if you're a father or a mother. So if 44 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: you were a part of this, you were just hopeless 45 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: and who cares where you come from. We don't want 46 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: to hear your excuses rights. It's a mandatory. And things 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: get like triviaalized too, because you hear about people getting 48 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: a hundred years or like back to back lifnse like 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: what are they gonna do dying come back? And it's like, yeah, 50 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: that's what they expect, Like they expect you to do 51 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: more time than you can physically exist on earth. In 52 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: some of these cases, judges are throwing out like what 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: they say football numbers, like if you're giving somebody the 54 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: eighty eight years, Like that's a jersey number, right, That's 55 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: not a number that you give somebody to ride away 56 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: in a cell. Like yeah, And so we're gonna we're 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: gonna talk to Eric Sterling and he makes a pretty 58 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, bombastic claim that the death of Len Bias, 59 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: who was amazing Maryland basketball legend, got drafted number two 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: overall I think by the Boston Celtics, was gonna play 61 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: with Larry bird Um and they were just gonna win 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: title after title together. Whip Yeah, yeah, you know, dies 63 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: of a cocaine overdose. Everyone said it was crack. And 64 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: the crazy thing is a lot of the laws that 65 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: we see today kind of started from that lit the match. 66 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: And so Eric Sterling, our guest, says that this is 67 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: about as you know, consequential as nine eleven was in 68 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: that way because it brought on a lot of these 69 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: mandatory minims and drawings. I want to hear why he says, 70 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: is as big as a nine eleven. Yeah. I think 71 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: Eric's got an interesting point. I think he's got a 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: decent case, and so I'm interested to hear about it. Yeah, 73 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: I want to see where he stands. And so you 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: probably think that we're just bringing on a criminal justice 75 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: advocate to talk about history and everything else, but you know, 76 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: you'd be wrong. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little deeper than that. 77 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the reason we got Eric here is because 78 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: he actually helped write the laws that he's spent the 79 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: last forty years trying to overturn. Yeah, so that's crazy. 80 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: That's we got somebody that wrote the laws that have 81 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: just decimated you know, communities and people well play and 82 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: you're a part of the Marvel world. It does sound 83 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: like the scientists that like developed like the thing for 84 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: good and it turns out, oh yeah, they're trying to 85 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: destroy it for their like the rest of their lives. 86 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're you know, Frankenstein trying to destroy his 87 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: monster exactly. Yeah. So yeah, he's trying to u make 88 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: that right, But I want to know how he came 89 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: up with it in the first place. And Frankenstein's the doctor. Yeah, 90 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: and it's just the monster. Yeah, Frankenstein's monster. Yeah. If 91 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: Frankenstein should be the name of the monster, right, it's 92 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: like a brand name thing you can you can have 93 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: a monster, but it's not a Frankenstein's mon right. No, 94 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: but you know what the real thing is. The doctor 95 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: was the monster right here, right, The monster was never Yeah, 96 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: I could do this all day to write a book 97 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: report that I used just no song to get shout out. 98 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: Mary Shelley almost fell empathy for him at the end, 99 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: Like he didn't want to be here, that's fair. He 100 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: wants to be made up of a bunch of different 101 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: dead people. Yeah, and so going back it Yeah, so 102 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: the monster is the drug laws doctor Frankenstein is Erica 103 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: and Frankstein's trying to kill the war on drugs? Yeah, 104 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: I think about right, I think, all right, that makes sense. 105 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: But no, he's definitely trying to undo you know, what 106 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: it's done. But then, yeah, let's get into it because 107 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff was founded on false information, 108 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: some very interesting ways that our drug laws were created. 109 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: And you know, Eric, he was the principal aid and 110 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: in counsel um crafting the anti drug abuse of nineteen 111 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: eighty six and nineteen eighty eight. And I want to 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: get into him with that, like living in that time, 113 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: how did that impact everything moving forward? And like where 114 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: they getting their information from it? And they made the 115 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: laws so fast with such little information and they've lasted 116 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, we're still living it. Yeah, I mean 117 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: most of them are still you know, around today at 118 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: the federal and state level. So, I mean, he has 119 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: an amazing resume. There's no one better to talk to 120 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: about this issue than Eric. He was living it, he 121 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: created it. Now he's trying to kill it. So yes, 122 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: let's get into it. Yeah. So thank you Eric so 123 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,679 Speaker 1: much for taking the time to chat with us today. 124 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: My pleasure. We were chatting before and you had mentioned 125 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: that the death of len Bias was a trigger point 126 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: in the war on drugs and where we're at today. 127 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: And I think you even coined as almost like a 128 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: nine to eleven moment in our country from the diametric 129 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: shift that we were before and after that change. Can 130 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about who len Bias was, 131 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: his portance just as an individual, and then you know, 132 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: really what happened moving forward from his death and you 133 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: know the weeks leading after that. Yeah, comparing it to 134 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: Nana eleven. You got to explain that to some newer people. 135 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: We'll explain why. So Lent Bias grew up in the Washington, 136 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: DC area, went to the University of Maryland, which is 137 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: here within the Washington Beltway, and he was a star there, 138 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, his principal league rival was Michael Jordan. 139 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: And it's announced he's been drafted by the NBA champion 140 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: Boston Celtics. He's going to be the next star of 141 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: the NBA champion team. And people are ecstatic for him. 142 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: They're excited. And that night he is actually now partying 143 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: in his dormitory at the University of Maryland. And as 144 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: the papers are going to press with this story. His 145 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: roommates are calling nine one one because he's gone into 146 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: a seizure, and by the by the morning he has 147 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: died from a cocaine related seizure. It was rumored that 148 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: it was crack cocaine. It was not crack. It was 149 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: powdered cocaine. This is the end of June, it's the 150 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: recess of the fourth of July, and members of Congress 151 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: are actually back in their district's busily campaigning for the 152 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six congressional election. The Speaker of the House 153 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: in this period of time is Tip O'Neill from Boston, 154 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: and he realizes, if we use this tragic death of 155 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: len Bias as Democrats legislatively, we have the chance to 156 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: appeal to the American public that we're the anti drug 157 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: party with the anti crime party, even though that's been 158 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: something the Republicans had been able to claim for some 159 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: number of years. Republicans, Yeah, we're gonna that's that's exactly right. 160 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: So biases death is the match that lights this explosion. 161 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: And the consequence then was this was legislation to completely 162 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: transformed the American justice system in terms of ushering in 163 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: long mandatory sentences. So this happens. Tip O'Neill, you know, 164 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: says I think he wanted this whole thing done in 165 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: like four weeks, right, I mean, it was just a 166 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: very quick thing. And where are you at this point? 167 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: Tip says, hey, four weeks. We got to get this 168 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: thing out and then we roll from here. I'll to 169 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: hear that the Speaker wanted all the House Democrats. He 170 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: wanted Democrats all over to be able to take credit. 171 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: And so every committee, whether it was the Small Business Committee, 172 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: or the Merchant, Marine and Fisheries Committee, or the Interior 173 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: Committee or the Agriculture Committee, all of these committees were 174 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: kicking in to this huge process. And so they're all 175 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: having hearings on the plague of drugs. So the Interior tomte, 176 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: he has the plague of drugs in the Virgin Islands 177 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: in Guam, and the Agriculture Committee has the plague of 178 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: marijuana in the national forests. All of these just gigantic 179 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: change in national policy is being crammed into this four 180 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: week window. And the reason that I drew in part 181 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: of comparison to nine to eleven is after the attack 182 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: on the World Trade Center or in the Pentagon and 183 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: the threat of nine to eleven Congress in the same 184 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: hasty period growth the Patriot Act. Was this going to 185 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: ran this legislation through barely gonna have time to consider 186 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: what the implications are. Bam, We're going to show we 187 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: can move fast because there's a crisis. And that's unbelievable. Yeah, 188 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: Like you think about that time, all the implications that 189 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: this all had, and it was all written four weeks 190 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: and the fishing in a Wildlife committee is getting you know, 191 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: crack and trout? Is it a them for your sam 192 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: and your state? That's and so I mean who was 193 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: involved in it was the DA Party? Like who was 194 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: actually in halder right of this was their scientists physicians? 195 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: Like how lacking of actual research and data went into 196 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: this bill? In this four weeks right, we are nothing 197 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: from the judges, nothing from the Bureau of Prisons, nothing 198 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: from main Justice, you know, nothing from the Bar Association, 199 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: nothing from law professors. Nothing. Nobody talked about the disaster 200 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: of the Rockefeller drug laws and their mandatory. Man, you 201 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: know is Bam bampan. You know, because of the drama 202 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: of how quickly the Congress worked and what the language 203 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: of the statute says five grams, which is the way 204 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: of a nickel would get you up to forty years 205 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: right now, before these laws were enacted, you're a big dookio, 206 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: you get fifteen years. If you're a kingpin. You know, 207 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: you make millions of dollars. If you're a kingpin, then 208 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: you can get you know, a mandatory minimum and up 209 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: to life. But when these Dow laws came in in 210 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, you didn't have to show anybody who's 211 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: a kingpin because you could get these long sentences from 212 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: these very small amounts. Now, one consequence of this is 213 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: if you get charged and you're facing mandatory minimum of 214 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: ten years, your defense counsel may say, look, the government 215 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: is willing to reduce the ten years, but you've got 216 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: to you've got to testify against somebody else. You've got 217 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: to cooperate. And so a whole snitching thing sort of 218 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: developed and I get to walk free. Yeah, so Tommy's 219 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: in the car with me a couple of times, I 220 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: can say he knew and brand stuff for me, and 221 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: no drugs can even be found. Right, It's I think 222 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: that's a misnomber people have that they need the drugs 223 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: on the table, and you don't, right, No, that's correct. 224 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: You're gonna tell laterally, you're gonna tell who's next to you. 225 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: We're not gonna go up the ladder. If the informant 226 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: says I saw five kilos, that's evidence of five kilos. 227 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: If if the informant says the defendant Bragg that he 228 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: shipped an airplane load through and then said he he 229 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: flew a ton in from Haiti, that's a ton. And 230 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: their criminal informants. They're both professional informants. And then there 231 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: are opportunistic informants, you know, who are caught up in 232 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: the in the in the activity. Yeah, and I think 233 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: most of those people aren't even the most reliable people, 234 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: Like they'll say anything to get out of doing their 235 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: time sometimes, you know, and that's counted as evidence, especially 236 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: if they're being encouraged. Exactly. We'll be right back with 237 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: the War on Drugs. Hi. I'm Jason Flam CEO and 238 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: founder of Lava for Good podcasts from Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, 239 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: The War on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today 240 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: we're asking you, our listeners, to take part in a survey. 241 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: Your feedback is going to help inform how we make 242 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: podcasts in the future. Your complete and candid answers will 243 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: help us continue to bring you more insightful and inspiring 244 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: stories about important topics that impact us all. So please 245 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: go to Lava for Good dot com slash survey and 246 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: participate today. Thank you for your support. The War on 247 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Drugs podcast is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is 248 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers 249 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems. 250 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: Weldon Angelos is one of those change makers. At the 251 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: age of twenty three, Weldon was arrested for a first 252 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: time offense for selling weed to a confidential informant. At 253 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: the time, he was a budding musician spending time with 254 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: artists like Tupac's Snoop Dogg, Pink, and Nas. His entire 255 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: life was ahead of him when he was sentenced to 256 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: a mandatory fifty five years in federal prison without the 257 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: possibility of early release. After serving thirteen years, a bipartisan 258 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: effort led to him getting officially pardoned. Upon his release, 259 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: he founded The Weldon Project, a nonprofit working to create 260 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: a better outcome for those still in prison that funds 261 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: social change and provides financial aid for all those who 262 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: are still serving time for cannabis related offenses. Weldon Angelos 263 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: is one of many entrepreneurs partnering will Stand Together to 264 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: drive solutions and education, healthcare, poverty, and criminal justice. To 265 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: learn more about stand Together their partners or how you 266 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: can partner will Stand Together, go to Stand Together dot org. Yeah, 267 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: and these numbers I'm going to assume based on what 268 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: you talked about, probably just out of thin air, Like 269 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: where do you get five years for that amount? Where 270 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: does ten years come from? And yeah, yeah, the House 271 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: our penalties for the mid level trafficker. It was a 272 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: mandatory of five years up to a maximum of twenty years, 273 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: and then the highest level offenders were a minimum of 274 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: ten years up to forty years. When it went to 275 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: the Senate, which was controlled by Republicans, and at that 276 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: time Senator Biden was the top Democrat on the Senate 277 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee. Working with strom Thurman from South Carolina, they 278 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: came up with much longer sentences, so five years with 279 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: a maximum of forty for the small mandatory minimum ten 280 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: years with a maximum of life imprisonment. The other piece 281 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: of it is the quantities that are picked. The quantities 282 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: are obviously critically important, So when the conversation began the 283 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: first proposal, I came back with legislatives, let's use DA's 284 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: own definition of the highest level traffickers that they investigate. 285 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: So I brought this to the subcommittee, and Congressman Missoli 286 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: from Louisville, Kentucky says, wait a minute, we don't have 287 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: drug traffickers this big in Louisville. Now, nobody said, Ron, 288 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: that's a good thing. Nobody said Ron. Hey, Ron, look, Louisville. 289 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: It ain't Miami, it's not Los Angeles. You know, uh, 290 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: maybe we don't have to worry about you know, these 291 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: mandatories top kingpin levels in Louisville, Kentucky. But no, every 292 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: Ron's right, Ron, Missoli's right, Eric, this isn't any good. 293 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: You know, you got to bring back smaller quantities. We 294 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: come bring and pick us up in a day or two. 295 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: And so, so I consulted as the opposite of which 296 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: I were trying to accomplish, right, if you went from 297 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: kingpins to little fish. So, so here's the most comically 298 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: tragic kind of dimension of this is that I consulted 299 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: with an expert who was on the staff of the 300 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: Select Committee or Narcotics Abuse and control in the House 301 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: of Representatives, and so I knew the staff and I 302 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: call up this narcotics investigator who has been detailed to 303 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: the Select Committee from the Metropolitan Police Department of Washington 304 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: d C. Named Drew Saint Valentine Brown, and Jerus Saint 305 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: Valentine Brown was the most famous narc in Washington, DC, 306 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: and I knew. I called I said, look, I've got 307 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: to come up with a great narc name, you know, 308 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: I've got to come up with some numbers. And so 309 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: this street level narc gave me the numbers that we 310 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: ended up using. Brown later went back to being a 311 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: narc and in one of the cases, a defendant that 312 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: he was prosecuting had an attorney who was a court 313 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: appointed lawyer who usually did civil work. And in a 314 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: civil work, when when you know the other side has 315 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: an expert witness, you check them out, you know. So 316 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: Jeru had said I was a pharmacist. I went to 317 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: the Howard School of Pharmacy. So he calls up, No, 318 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: he never went to the Howard School of Pharmacy. And 319 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: he had perjured himself time and time again and was 320 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: then prosecuted by the Justice Department for perjury in countless cases. 321 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: At his sentencing he forged letters of recommendation in his defense. 322 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: That's the god Jeru, Saint Valentine Brown, so that's who 323 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: you got man. And literally it was, hey, how are 324 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: you nabbing street dealers? Let's use those numbers to somehow 325 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: great bills to get high little traffickers. And the way 326 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: that they're written everyone a kingpin because everyone's involved in 327 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: every bit of drugs and there doesn't even have to 328 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: be drugs. And to be clear, a lot of this 329 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: was based on a confidential informant that has the name 330 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: of like a strip club DJ name and who lied 331 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: about his actual expertise on this issue. Is that accurate? 332 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: That's the essence of it. The final numbers came from 333 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: the Senate. We didn't have one hundred to one in 334 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: the house. We had a big disparity. The idea for 335 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: these numbers was, how do we identify where somebody is 336 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: if they're a trafficker in a drug traffic pipeline. And 337 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: then when the numbers went to the Senate, the Senate 338 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: Republicans they were going to be tougher than those libts 339 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: in the House, so they shrink the numbers and they 340 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: raised the sentences, so a maximum of forty becomes life imprisonment, 341 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: twenty grams of crack becomes five grams of crack. In 342 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: the Senate, there isn't any sort of analysis. They didn't 343 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: have Jerus, Saint Valentine Brown or anybody. They just had 344 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: politics were we don't care what these numbers really are, 345 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: but they got to be tougher. We got to own 346 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: the lips. We have to own them. Yeah, what about you? 347 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: Was it kind of a slow deterioration of like, this 348 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: was not what we intended? Or was there a kind 349 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: of a come to Jesus moment in a ha moment? 350 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: Was there anything specific that happened within your time or 351 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: that you're just like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe 352 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: what's happening here. It was a briefing of the Select 353 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: Committee or Narcotics on the problem of AIDS among injecting 354 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: drug users. We had epidemiologists who are briefing members of commis. 355 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: This is the very beginning the AIDS epidemic, when the 356 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: word was just being invented, when people didn't even know 357 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: exactly what this terrible disease was or how it was spread, 358 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: and so epidemiologists are now explaining to members of Congress 359 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: who are just in the problem of narcotics that men 360 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: and women who are injecting drugs sometimes share needles because 361 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: needles are contraband and they're expensive, and that that sharing 362 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 1: of needles means that they're sharing blood, and that HIV 363 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: is being shared among heroin addicts and they're dying at 364 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: very high numbers. And I'm watching the members of Congress 365 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: sitting on their diis hearing this information, and a member 366 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: kind of suddenly like perks up, like, oh wow, I 367 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: just had this insight, and he says, you know, mister Chairman, 368 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: well this is going to solve the heroin epidemic, meaning 369 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: they're all going to die. When the heroin addicts die, 370 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: that will solve the heroin epidemic. Wow. It was a 371 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: recognition that drug users are not really human beings and 372 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: they're not part of any family I know, and there 373 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: if they die, well, because they're such bad people and 374 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: they're so dangerous and they're so threatening and they're so 375 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: criminal and depraved, that's a good thing. And so we'll quote, 376 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, we'll let nature take its course. Wow. It 377 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: was seeing that and understanding how full of hate and 378 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: contempt the war on drugs is in the minds of 379 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: the architects and the drivers. That was the big turnaround 380 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: for me. You saying that made me realize how much 381 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: of a war it really, Well, you don't care about 382 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: who dies where. That's Oh, that's a win. Just that 383 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: person saying that in that moment, like, oh, this is 384 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: the answer. Wow, that's going to solve this part of 385 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: the drug problem. I can't imagine, Eric, you're kind of 386 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: You must have had some days writing this stuff, hearing 387 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: those things previously about how people thought about addicts, and 388 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: then helping to draft these bills. I mean, there must 389 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: be some apprehension and then some regrets, and just battling 390 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: with that must have been incredibly difficult, and you know, 391 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: during it, and then you know after the short answers. Yeah, 392 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: it was very hard. When I helped start Families against 393 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: mandatory minimums, and I would meet the family members of 394 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: people who are serving twenty and thirty year mandatory minimum sentences, 395 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, and to know my role it is, It's 396 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: always been disturbing to me. I don't believe that the 397 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: word drugs makes any sense. When drugs are legalized and 398 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: regulated to control, the users will be safe and the 399 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: crime of the streets goes away. Legalization is what we 400 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: need to reduce crime. If you're concerned about organized crime, 401 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: legalized drugs, If you're concerned about crime in the streets 402 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: and prostitution and all these other kinds of things that 403 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: shoplifting or whatever, burglary, robbery, those crimes go down when 404 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: drugs are legalized. And you can't save the lines of 405 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: drug users by giving them poison that criminals have sold 406 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: them right now, in one sense, it can't be stopped. 407 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: We know, you know, you shut down the market here, 408 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: it will pop up somewhere else because of the demand. 409 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: Until we make treatment available without stigma and without you know, 410 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: without degrading people who need treatment, until we treat people 411 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: who need treatment as people we love instead of people 412 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: we hate or disrespect or that we're war with. Thank 413 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: you so much, Eric for your efforts and all your 414 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: work you've done through the years, and take the time 415 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: to talk to us today. Thank you man. Clayton Gregg, 416 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: thank you so much for inviting me to talk to 417 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: your audience. We'll be right back with the War on 418 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: Drugs podcast. So, Greg, did you know about this guy, 419 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: Saint Valentine Brown. No, I did not know about Johnny 420 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: Saint Valentine Brown Junior. That is. I love that name 421 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, No, I had to google it. Well, 422 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: I had Michael Good. I don't do my own googling, right, 423 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: are too big to google for ourselves. I'll text Michael 424 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: to google for me, yeah, and then bring me the results. 425 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: But I mean this guy, um, I mean, if if 426 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't like in like the Washington you wouldn't believe 427 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: the story that like this man was a major contributor 428 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: for why we the way that we have quantities and 429 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: drug laws. And I mean, listen to how they talk 430 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: about this guy in nineteen eighty three. So I gotta 431 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read you a little bit of this article 432 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: from The Washington Post. Sadle flamboyant narcotics expert is key 433 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: witness in drug cases, and Lamboyant is how they started 434 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: Flamboyant with, Yeah, exactly what you want to hear about 435 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: your narco. Yeah. I don't know why that was a yeah. 436 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: Did he have a feather boa when he did? I 437 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: don't know what, like what makes the play? He was 438 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: dressed like rig Flair, exactly the Bishop Don magic bornotics expert. 439 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: The Golden Chalice was fair. Um. Yeah, so he was 440 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: a DC police investigator for fourteen years. Brown, a dapper 441 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: man who drives to work in a Brown nineteen seventy 442 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: seven E type Jaguar, is the resident narcotics expert. So 443 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: it goes on to say that Brown's testified in thousand 444 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: narcotic related trials, three to five each day. This guy's 445 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: coming into and like literally says, this is a quote 446 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: from It's My High. I want the journey to experience 447 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: the drug trip without going through it all. I want 448 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: to put him there at the drug corner. I want 449 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: them to see what's happening up close. I want them 450 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: to live it, smell it tasted. Johnny Brown loves a 451 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: little bit of Johnny Brown. The more you know, there's 452 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: a lot of quotes out there. Yeah, and this guy 453 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: was essentially who Congress went too and said, all right, 454 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: Congress is in DC. This guy's in DC. He seems 455 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: pretty legit. He's got a bunch of you know, degrees 456 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: and diplomas and all this stuff. We'll just show it 457 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: him like and I'm I don't know, but it sounds 458 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: like he does drugs. Let's just be really, if anybody 459 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: says I want you to live it, feel it, taste it, 460 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: smell it, then what are you doing? And that article 461 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: was from when nineteen eighty three. Oh so I got 462 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: an article from a little bit later where you can 463 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: see just how much Johnny Saint Valentine Brown was actually doing. 464 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, he got convicted of perjury 465 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: and got an additional one year prison term for submitting 466 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: a batch of phony letters to the court that attested 467 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: to his redeeming character. So basically, this man has been 468 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: lying every time he hits the stand, and then when 469 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: it came time for people to you know, write a 470 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: letter and you know, just attesting to his character, he 471 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: wrote the letters. He wrote all the letters. They found 472 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: him on his computer. He was given names of preachers, 473 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: he's given names of other people in the government, and 474 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: he said, this is the part to kill me. He 475 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: felt like he was authorized to write the letters on 476 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: behalf of other people. Yes, because this is his quote. 477 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: He said, certainly, no one can write a better letter 478 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: about me than me. That's a great line. That's an 479 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: amazing line. I love this guy. If he didn't if 480 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: he didn't incarcenrate thousands of people on board man. And 481 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: then they said his initial troubles really stemmed from his 482 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: testimony at trials and not even what he was saying, 483 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: but what he said about himself. Once again, this is 484 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: this dude likes himself. So he was telling people he 485 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: was a registered pharmacist, which he isn't, that he had 486 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: a doctorate in pharmacology from Howard University, which he doesn't. 487 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: They said, he just started lying about himself years ago, 488 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: and all of this came to perjury and looks like 489 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: he had to serve about at least a year maybe 490 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: two in jail. And this this is this is their guy. Yeah, 491 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: this is their guy. He was quarterback in eighty three. 492 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: And I think this is a very telling line from 493 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: like what you're saying a lot of times, it's not 494 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: the evidence that wins the case, it's whether the jury 495 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: likes you. And who doesn't like Howard graduated pharmacists exactly, 496 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: like a pharmacist who has Valentine in his name exactly 497 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: like I don't even think that's your real name. And 498 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: this is the guy Eric went to to get the quantities. Yeah, 499 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: that have got so many people fucked over in the 500 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: world drugs. Yeah, apparently he used to. He would move 501 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: around and jerk around, like this is what you look 502 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: like when you're high on like preladent, it says, and 503 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: all these like different heroin boosters, and that's what you're 504 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: doing court. So he's just like he's a screenwriter. He's 505 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,239 Speaker 1: doing bits. Yeah, he's literally doing bits. Yeah. Yeah, like 506 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: reading and stuff. Is funny, but it's fucked because this 507 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: dude did not have any information that was valuable and 508 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: it's gotten so many people crushed. Yeah, it's funny until 509 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: you realize, like what this actually the consequence were that 510 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: this perjur or this guy who lied on the witness 511 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: stand in thousands of cases, was the foremost expert on 512 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: what triggers someone to spend the next five, ten fifty 513 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: years behind bars. Yeah, he's known as Downtown Freddie, right, 514 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: and that's in statue. Now what Downtown Freddie said? Wow, 515 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: that's how American law was made in nineteen eighty six. 516 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: That's crazy. There. We are make sure you follow the 517 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: War on Drugs podcast so you don't miss any new 518 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: episodes or any of our Quick Fix bonus content, and 519 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with another episode of War 520 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: on Drugs until then, Thank you for listening. Executive producers 521 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: for War on Drugs are Jason Flam and Kevin Works. 522 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Senior producer is Michael Epstein. Editing by Nick Massetti and 523 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix and mastering by Nick Massetti. 524 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: Additional production by Jeff Cliver and Anna McEntee. Be sure 525 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: to follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at 526 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: Lava for Good. You can follow Greg on Twitter at 527 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: Greg Blode and Clayton on Instagram at Clayton Engle The 528 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: War on Drugs. This is a production of Blaba for 529 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number One. I'm 530 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: your host, Claig Niglas, and I'm Greg Glad. We'll see 531 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: you next time. See you later. I was supposed to talk. Yeah, man, 532 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: we got it.