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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George

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Speaker 1: nor back with you. Craig Wiler, graduate of UC Berkeley,

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Speaker 1: a parapsychology student, journalist, speaker, and blogger on the science

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Speaker 1: of parapsychology, the skepticism, and the psychics. Craig began his

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Speaker 1: spiritual path during the New Age Movement, teaching and practicing

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Speaker 1: psychic healing. One of his books includes cy Wars, Ted

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia and the Battle for the Internet and Craig, what

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Speaker 1: a battle it continues to be, isn't it? Yes, it is. George,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me tonight. Well, you

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Speaker 1: were spot on a couple of years ago with that book.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you, Yeah, I'm I'm I was really happy

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Speaker 1: to do that. And I'm still hearing from people even

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Speaker 1: today about, you know, how much it means to them

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Speaker 1: that I was calling out the skepticism. Good for you, parapsychology.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean to you paras psychology? To me, well,

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Speaker 1: I cover parasychologies, which means that you know, I attend

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Speaker 1: some of the conferences and I talk to the scientists occasionally,

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Speaker 1: so to me, it's science, and really it's just regular science.

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Speaker 1: There's there's really nothing different about parapsychology except for what

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Speaker 1: they're studying. They do everything the same way as everybody

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Speaker 1: else they should do. And how do you compare parapsychology

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Speaker 1: to the paranormal. Well, the paranormal is uh is something

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Speaker 1: that you know, normally enthusiasts do you know, people are

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Speaker 1: interested in the paranormal, so they'll they'll they'll read about ghosts,

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Speaker 1: they'll read about ghosts and hauntings and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and of course there's the shows on TV and the

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Speaker 1: science that's an entirely different animal because what they're doing

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Speaker 1: is they're building a knowledge base. So they have institutions

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Speaker 1: that they collect the you know, they collect the information

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Speaker 1: from the scientists. The scientists themselves are publishing in papers.

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Speaker 1: They get their stuff looked at by other scientists, and

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Speaker 1: when everything clears and the studies seem to be okay,

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Speaker 1: then they get published, it gets added to the database

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Speaker 1: and everybody works from there. So parapsychology from a scientific

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Speaker 1: perspective is building on all the information dating back over

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years moving forward so that they

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Speaker 1: can understand the phenomena better, and they're constantly coming up

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Speaker 1: with new experiments to to see what else they can learn,

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Speaker 1: So they're not just running the same experiments over and

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Speaker 1: over again trying to prove something. To them, it's already proven,

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Speaker 1: and now the idea is what do we do with

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Speaker 1: this information? How do we take this forward? How do

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Speaker 1: we learn more about this phenomena? And that's really what

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Speaker 1: fascinates them. I mean you can you can just see

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Speaker 1: the wheels turned when they're when they're presenting their papers.

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Speaker 1: They're they're very enthusiastic about where this leads us. Have

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Speaker 1: you in an increased craig in the scientific investigation of

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Speaker 1: the parapsychology area? Um? Yes, Since the since the Internet

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Speaker 1: started taking over, parapsychology has has gotten slowly, ever so slowly.

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Speaker 1: Got this just takes years, but it's slowly gotten more

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Speaker 1: into the mainstream, so more people are aware of it,

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Speaker 1: and you're starting to see people come into it and participate.

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Speaker 1: More and more scientists are involved, there's more papers being written,

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Speaker 1: and the whole thing is just kind of expanding, and

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Speaker 1: it's primarily investigating the study of mental phenomena, isn't it? Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is yeah. Basically, you know what you're looking at

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Speaker 1: is where is you know, where is this taking us?

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Speaker 1: What can what can we do with it? So you know,

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Speaker 1: for example, I was working with a scientist because he

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Speaker 1: was an interesting situation. The guy had done like ten

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Speaker 1: years of studies and then didn't tell anybody about it,

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Speaker 1: kept himself. Yeah, and so he was he was working

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Speaker 1: with belief in telepathy experiments and it produced some really

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Speaker 1: interesting results because you know, skeptics were skeptics were demonstrated

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Speaker 1: to be psychic, just like just like you know people

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Speaker 1: who are trying to be My aunt was doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing before she passed on, but she put it

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Speaker 1: all in a book called Breakthrough the Creativity. Doctor Sophika Corregula,

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Speaker 1: who she was a psychiatrist Craig and Divided, decided to

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Speaker 1: devote her entire practice into studying esp and telepathy and

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Speaker 1: all this. She was fascinated by it, and why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: she be. The deeper you get into this, the more

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Speaker 1: interesting it becomes. There's um, you know, it's it's they've

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Speaker 1: already established, for example, that there's telepathy. But for example,

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Speaker 1: what is this say about our universe? Exactly? What got

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Speaker 1: you into the study, um, you know, the trip into

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Speaker 1: parapsychology itself that the skeptics actually got me into it. Um.

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Speaker 1: Way back in two thousand and eight, I started blogging

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Speaker 1: on different subjects, you know, mostly politics, because everybody, you know,

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Speaker 1: blogs about politics, right, everybody's got it, sure. And then

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Speaker 1: that kind of bored me because everybody was doing it,

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Speaker 1: and I started talking about the psychic stuff, and all

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Speaker 1: these skeptics would get online and you'd get I got

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Speaker 1: all these horribly negative comments, you know, people telling me, God,

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Speaker 1: give this up, go do you know, go write something else.

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Speaker 1: The amazing Randy probably came at you, right, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that was like every third comment was, you know,

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Speaker 1: googles yourself tisted by Randy. Um. So I started looking

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Speaker 1: into it, right that just you know, well let's see

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Speaker 1: what they have to say, you know. And so I

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Speaker 1: looked into Randy's challenge and it's like that that's actually

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Speaker 1: not very scientific at all. And then I started looking

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Speaker 1: into other stuff and it's like, oh wow, there's this

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Speaker 1: whole world of scientific information here that I knew nothing about.

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Speaker 1: And then I just started diving in deeper and deeper

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Speaker 1: into it, and it just it's it's like an union.

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Speaker 1: You just keep peeling this thing back and there's just

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Speaker 1: so much more to it. Would you paraphise yourself as

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Speaker 1: a journalist based on the pair of psychology that you

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Speaker 1: really study that the most, Um, Yeah, I so I'm

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Speaker 1: a I'm a generalist. I'd like that at work too,

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Speaker 1: and that I like to you know, check up check

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Speaker 1: on a bunch of different areas. So I don't specialize

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Speaker 1: on one particular area of parapsychology, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: want to know, you know, what the philosophy is behind it,

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Speaker 1: with the theories are going, what new experiments are and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. When the type of stories, Craig,

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Speaker 1: you've covered, which are the ones that you would categorize

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Speaker 1: as the big ones? Well, there was a huge Kurf

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Speaker 1: fluffle with Ted ted Talks way back in twenty and thirteen, Okay,

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Speaker 1: with Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock. They were basically um,

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Speaker 1: they Ted took their talks down and held discussions about it,

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Speaker 1: and the whole thing dragged on for I think like

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Speaker 1: two months. Really tried to put them down, didn't that

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Speaker 1: they did? Yeah? They you know, of course, by banning

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Speaker 1: the talks, they just made these guys hugely popular. I

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Speaker 1: mean both of them, Graham Hancock and Rupert Sheldrake there

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Speaker 1: there both and both past guests of the show. Graham

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Speaker 1: was just on a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean that it lifted both of them up quite a

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Speaker 1: bit um. And Graham wasn't even talking about his main

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Speaker 1: subj He was talking about having had an addiction to

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Speaker 1: marijuana for most of his and Rupert Sheldrake was talking

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Speaker 1: about questioning the materialist to paradigm, you know, not looking

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Speaker 1: at things in the In the Ted folks freaked out

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Speaker 1: over that stuff. They did. Yeah, when I dug into

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Speaker 1: it for the book, it became clear why is that

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Speaker 1: they were. First of all, the owner of Ted Talks,

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Speaker 1: I think his last name is Anderson. He he's a

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Speaker 1: skeptic atheist type, a very particular type of skeptic atheist.

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Speaker 1: And so he was only the people in the company.

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Speaker 1: He was hiring other skeptic atheists who would go out

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Speaker 1: and reinforce their beliefs by looking at other skeptic atheists.

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Speaker 1: And so his entire circle was this one type of person.

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Speaker 1: And so when these talks came out, the people around

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Speaker 1: him freaked. He freaked and then they decided they needed

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Speaker 1: to do something, but they were also very open about it,

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Speaker 1: and so this turned into a huge discussion. A lot

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Speaker 1: of intellectual luminaries joined in on the discussion. They'd even

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Speaker 1: made it into the papers at that time, and so

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Speaker 1: I was busy taking notes on the whole thing the

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Speaker 1: entire time in blogging about it. And then they canceled

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Speaker 1: a TEDx talk and I was the person that found

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Speaker 1: out about it first, and I reported on it, and

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Speaker 1: that turned that turned out to be something bigger, and

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Speaker 1: so the whole thing just it. I look at it

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Speaker 1: as kind of a turning point of the people who

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Speaker 1: are who advocate for parapsychology and for looking at sciences

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Speaker 1: differently just came out in force and really put their

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Speaker 1: foot down that you know, hey, we need to look

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Speaker 1: at this. It's important. You may have helped put it

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Speaker 1: on the map by not even annoying about the what

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Speaker 1: they did at the time when this whole thing started,

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Speaker 1: I certainly was fifty percent responsible for turning this thing

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Speaker 1: into a big kerf Leffel. I went around to everybody

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Speaker 1: I knew, including Dean Rayden and some others, and got

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Speaker 1: people who were involved in the community to start broadcasting it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'd good, Yeah, my list wasn't that big,

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Speaker 1: but there's was. And so when I got everybody else involved,

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Speaker 1: everybody else realized that this was a big deal. And

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, this thing just totally blew up.

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Speaker 1: What other stories have you covered that just were one

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Speaker 1: of those wow type stories for you? Well, the other

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Speaker 1: one was my favorite. Is a fellow named Russell Gruber.

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Speaker 1: I did mention this briefly. He had like ten years

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Speaker 1: of studies that he hadn't told anybody about. I ran

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Speaker 1: into him at a conference and he's saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've got these studies, but I want to get them

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Speaker 1: out there. You know, I want people to know what

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Speaker 1: I did. And well, this is you know, this is

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Speaker 1: what I do. I take this complicated stuff and I

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Speaker 1: explain it in a way that ordinary people can understand.

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Speaker 1: So over two or three weeks with him, we worked

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Speaker 1: out an article which we published in Paranormal Daily News,

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Speaker 1: which was basically a synopsis of all these studies. Erie

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Speaker 1: Geller is a friend of our program, Craig. He's been

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Speaker 1: on our show several times over the years, and of

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Speaker 1: course you might remember during the tonight show era. He

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Speaker 1: was on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and the

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Speaker 1: Amazing Randy and was unable to do what he had

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Speaker 1: to do. He claims he was nervous, but had generated

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Speaker 1: more publicity for him than he's ever had. Mike Douglas

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Speaker 1: called him on later and everything else, and his notoriety

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Speaker 1: just exploded. But he's been tested before, and he's pretty

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Speaker 1: darn accurate the research that I've checked in on. And

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Speaker 1: mind you, your Geller is not really significant in parapsychology,

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Speaker 1: but I do I have run into some of this,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, he was tested a few times and people

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Speaker 1: found him to be the real deal. And then Randy

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Speaker 1: came in and just confused all of this by spreading

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Speaker 1: a bunch of misinformation about what actually transpired. Randy's who's

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Speaker 1: dead now. But I wonder if he knows what the

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Speaker 1: afterlike is like now because he didn't believe in that either.

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Speaker 1: Oh who knows? You know, yeah, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: have a line to him. What is science starting to say,

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Speaker 1: Craig about parapsychology, Um depends on who you ask them.

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Speaker 1: They're still still up in the air, right. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: there's there's there's like two groups that are coming at

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Speaker 1: this from completely different directions, and there's this chasm in

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Speaker 1: the middle. So you have, on the one hand, this

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Speaker 1: complete denial that's that's it's going to stick around for

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Speaker 1: probably a couple more generations. Uh, and then you have

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Speaker 1: the other side of it, and it basically boils down

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Speaker 1: to either your a materialist, which means that you believe

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Speaker 1: that the universe is made out of material material or

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Speaker 1: you're an idealist, which means that you believe that the

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Speaker 1: universe is made out of ideas. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: one or it's going to be the other, and there's

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Speaker 1: just this void in the middle. Can it be both? Um?

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a that's an interesting question, and uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's philosophical and everybody's you know, people have opinions

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Speaker 1: on it. My personal opinion is when you have something

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Speaker 1: that's physical, it doesn't have any meaning, and when you

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Speaker 1: have something with meaning, it's not physical. So you so

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Speaker 1: when you have something physical and it has meaning, you're

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Speaker 1: attaching meaning to that physical thing. You're you're using your

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Speaker 1: consciousness to give it meaning. That the meaning isn't intrinsic

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Speaker 1: in something physical, So what you end up with as

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Speaker 1: a situation with either the universe can be physical, which

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Speaker 1: means that there's nothing immaterial about it, or the universe

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Speaker 1: is immaterial, which means that there's nothing physical about it.

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Speaker 1: For my opinion is is that since we since everything

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Speaker 1: we do all the time and we can't get away

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Speaker 1: from it has to do with meaning, then the universe

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Speaker 1: must be immaterial. Has science proved beyond the shadow of

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Speaker 1: doubt about the ability of people being psychic? My opinion

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Speaker 1: is yes, tell me how well. The So first, the

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Speaker 1: first thing you have to realize is that psychic ability

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Speaker 1: has been described by people for as far back as

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Speaker 1: we have records, and it's in every single civilization on

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Speaker 1: Earth has something psychic in their culture. So it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: It's all the time. It's all throughout history. There have

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Speaker 1: been psychics everywhere. It's not something that's like isolated to

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Speaker 1: a particular group you it it passes through all socioeconomic

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Speaker 1: and education educational boundaries in middle Where's you find it everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So there's no one area where where it's like you

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Speaker 1: only find psychics in this one particular group. It's nothing

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Speaker 1: like that. They're everywhere. So you begin the scientific investigation

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Speaker 1: of psychic ability from that standpoint, that's something that skeptics

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Speaker 1: refuse to do. But it's the truth. You have all

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Speaker 1: this stuff everywhere, and this guides you in how much

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Speaker 1: proof you need to decide that psychic ability exists and

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Speaker 1: somebody to be psychic and not even know it. Oh?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah. In fact, the studies by Russell Gruber, those

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Speaker 1: of the ones that weren't the ones that he kind

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Speaker 1: of hid from everybody, demonstrated exactly that. And what he

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Speaker 1: did was fascinating because this guy, this guy was really

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Speaker 1: creative with it. It It was a telepathy experiment and that

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Speaker 1: everybody had to pick the correct dot out of four

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Speaker 1: of them in a board, right, they had to pick

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Speaker 1: the right one. And so what he did was he

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Speaker 1: asked people to deliberately miss. Don't pick the right one

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Speaker 1: at all, right, deliberately miss, deliberately miss the probably got

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Speaker 1: it right by deliberately missing. That's exactly what happened with

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Speaker 1: the skeptics. They got it right by deliberately trying to miss. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which indicated that the psychic ability was always there, but

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Speaker 1: they were rejecting it and they were trying to give

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Speaker 1: them you know, they were trying to give themselves an

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Speaker 1: answer that they personally believed. This kind of research is

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Speaker 1: fascinating in what do you find to be the most

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Speaker 1: interesting the most so the most interesting thing about it

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Speaker 1: is that there are just some things that that just

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Speaker 1: tip the scales into the complete boggle factor, which is,

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Speaker 1: for example, one of the scientists, Bill Bankston, just happened

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Speaker 1: to comment in passing at one of the conferences that

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Speaker 1: he was finding that when he would he would he

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Speaker 1: would do a psychic healing experiment in this one spot,

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Speaker 1: and then he would leave and come back, and stuff

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Speaker 1: in that area would heal without them having to do anything.

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Speaker 1: In other words, the area itself was starting to take

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Speaker 1: on the healing properties even after they left and went

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Speaker 1: and did something else. It wasn't people weren't doing it

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Speaker 1: at that point, but somehow the area had recorded that information.

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Speaker 1: Interesting it isn't It really is fascinating. Listen to more

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one a m.

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Speaker 1: Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am dot com

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Speaker 1: for more