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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show

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Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any views

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Speaker 1: expressed here do not represent those of iHeart Media, Protozoa Pictures,

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Speaker 1: or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as an inveterate contrarian,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you they may not even represent my own.

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Speaker 1: And nothing contained in this show should be used as

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Speaker 1: medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drug. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna do something different. It's not

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Speaker 1: just gonna be me talking one on one with a guest.

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Speaker 1: But I've invited an old friend of mine who I've

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Speaker 1: known god for a few decades. It's the nineties now,

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Speaker 1: Julie Holland, Dr Julie Holland, who's really just a spa

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Speaker 1: tacular writer, thinker, clinician, you name it, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: she's written numerous books. I mean, she wrote one about

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Speaker 1: working in the emergency room at Bellevue Hospital in New York.

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Speaker 1: She's written books about medical marijuana and m d M

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Speaker 1: a h. She wrote a book called Moody bitches about

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Speaker 1: women and psychoactive drugs and all sorts of other things

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Speaker 1: as well, and she's been on major national TV as

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Speaker 1: a correspondent, you name it. So what we decided to

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Speaker 1: do was that we were going to do a little

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Speaker 1: things sort of like car talk on drugs, you know,

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Speaker 1: but rest ashore. We're not driving when we're doing this,

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Speaker 1: And actually I don't think we're on drugs at the

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Speaker 1: moment um. But Julie, it's great to have you joined

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Speaker 1: me for answering these questions that have come in from

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Speaker 1: our listeners. I'm very happy to be here. I don't

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Speaker 1: have to pee in a cup to talk to you,

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Speaker 1: do I ethan? Oh? Well, you know people used to

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Speaker 1: say if you wanted a job at Drug Policy Alliance,

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Speaker 1: you needed to fail a drug test, but that was

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Speaker 1: never true. I am not driving. Let's just say, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have to give just one extra little plug,

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Speaker 1: which is that my most recent book that came out

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Speaker 1: is called Good Chemistry, and it about cannabis and psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and antidepressants and lots of the things we're probably gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about. That sounds fascinating. So today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: roll off a bunch of questions. So let's go to

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Speaker 1: the callers. Hey, um, you know, Michael Pollan has been

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Speaker 1: doing a book tour for his latest book about psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and keeps repeating the idea that the jury is still

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Speaker 1: out on micro dosing, that it could all be placebo.

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Speaker 1: And if someone who's been micro docing for several years

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Speaker 1: and has read James Fadiman's book, I'd like to get

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Speaker 1: your perspective on whether you believe that uh, micro docing

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Speaker 1: should be in completely subperceptual doses or you should be

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Speaker 1: taking enough of a micro doce that you definitely feel something.

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Speaker 1: My impression and other people I've talked to who are

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Speaker 1: micro dosing is that they're taking effective doses where the

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Speaker 1: effects are noticeable and significant, whether or not it's a

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Speaker 1: cure for anything ing or the impact that has UM.

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Speaker 1: I can understand the jury still out, but I keep

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Speaker 1: seeing Michael Pollen repeating that these are entirely sub perceptual doses,

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Speaker 1: and that seems to me erroneous, And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: you have taught I definitely have thoughts. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I think there's different ways to micro dos and you

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Speaker 1: could have a goal that you want sub perceptual doses,

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Speaker 1: and then you know what I usually recommend with my patients.

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Speaker 1: Is One easy way to figure out whether it's sub

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Speaker 1: perceptual or not is if you're trying to read a

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Speaker 1: book and the words are sort of breathing and swimming

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Speaker 1: and moving around, that's probably not sub perceptual. But I

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Speaker 1: feel like I know a lot of people who feel

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Speaker 1: good when the micro dose. I was micro docing before

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Speaker 1: it was called micro dosing. I didn't know that's what

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Speaker 1: I was doing. But I'm not much of a drinker.

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Speaker 1: When I was an undergrad and a premed I didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to get drunk, but I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: a certain levity in the proceedings for the night, and

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Speaker 1: I would just have like a tiny little stem of

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Speaker 1: a mushroom and I felt sort of a brilliant and

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Speaker 1: connected and enjoyed myself and didn't have a hangover. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of different ways to micro dose.

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Speaker 1: The study that Michael Pollen is referencing came out of Imperial.

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Speaker 1: It allowed participants to self blind at home, so they

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Speaker 1: referred to this as citizen science. It's not a clinical study.

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Speaker 1: As a psychiatrist, I will say that the psychedelics lend

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Speaker 1: a certain cognitive flexibility that can be very, very helpful

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Speaker 1: for a broad range of psychiatric diagnoses. Certainly there's less rumination,

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Speaker 1: less fixation. You know, it's a mind opening, heart opening.

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Speaker 1: This can lead to creativity or emotional enhancement. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pluses to micro dosing. And I

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Speaker 1: will also say, don't knock the placebo effect. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's real. People expect to get better. They do get better,

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Speaker 1: and thank God for the placebo effect in psychiatry, or

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Speaker 1: things would be even worse than they already are. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know it's funny. During the beginning of pandemic, I

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Speaker 1: was determined I was going to start micro docing myself,

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Speaker 1: but I just kept spacing out on it every morning,

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Speaker 1: so I never really got into it, never really tried it.

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Speaker 1: I have done what I would call mini dozing, which

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Speaker 1: is the twenty micrograms thirty micrograms which actually feel and

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Speaker 1: I've enjoyed that. All I have to say, it does

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Speaker 1: kind of knock me out the next day. Now on

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Speaker 1: this issue, I mean, I want to believe, and I

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Speaker 1: have enormous respect for Jim Fattiman who has done so

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Speaker 1: much of the research on this thing, and he's collected

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Speaker 1: I think a couple of thousands of anecdotal reports from people.

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Speaker 1: He's really done a huge amount of work and found

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Speaker 1: real positive benefits, and so I tend to lean that direction. Now,

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Speaker 1: that study you mentioned by the Hungarian fellow abolished Saghetti

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Speaker 1: at Imperial College in London with Dave rit So he

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Speaker 1: found yeah, no better in the placebo. So and then

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Speaker 1: there's Ilett Waldman's book, right, a very good book about

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Speaker 1: her experience micro dosing and how she found it useful.

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Speaker 1: So my sense is there's not much evidence of real

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Speaker 1: potential harm. I understand why Michael is looking at Shaghetti

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Speaker 1: study and saying, you know, the jury is out. Fatiman

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Speaker 1: collecting thousands of reports suggests there's something really there, So

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Speaker 1: I think it's definitely worth more research. Speaking of research

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Speaker 1: and Fatiman, I love Jim Fatiman. He is, you know,

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Speaker 1: an elder in the psychedelic community. But I really want

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Speaker 1: to give a shout out to Sophia Corb, who is

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Speaker 1: the person who's really gathering and collating the data and

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of the work. That may be an

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Speaker 1: ongoing theme when we talk about things, and I'm citing

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Speaker 1: studies as I am always trying to shed some light

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Speaker 1: on the people right behind the people who are getting

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Speaker 1: quoted ethan Um. I'm a huge fan of the podcast

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Speaker 1: and also high Julie, a huge fan of your books. Um.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know if you guys take any psycho

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Speaker 1: active of drugs yourself, and if you do, how you

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Speaker 1: determine for yourself whether to use the drug or how

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Speaker 1: frequently to use it, and if there's anything off limits.

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Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much. Sorry to hear the answer. Well, Julie,

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Speaker 1: you want to go first or show I jump in

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Speaker 1: on that. Oh, maybe you should start, okay. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I sort of regard as a professional obligation

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Speaker 1: first of all, to try as many subs as I

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Speaker 1: can that they are in the realm of safety, and

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Speaker 1: that means, you know, I've tried not just cannabis and

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Speaker 1: many of the psychedelics, but I also there have been

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Speaker 1: where I have tried cocaine, and I have to say,

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Speaker 1: cocaine I never really enjoyed it all that much. For me.

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Speaker 1: It was like drinking too much coffee and having post

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Speaker 1: nasal drip and heroin. You know, years ago I did

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Speaker 1: try it in various ways with friends I trusted, so

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Speaker 1: it will load dose. I never did a high dose

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Speaker 1: injection of heroin. I've never tried method on. I've never

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Speaker 1: smoked cocaine, and I feel a little bit of professional

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Speaker 1: and responsibility on my part for not having tried it. Um,

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to which drugs I used, you know,

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Speaker 1: I just try to follow all the principles of harm

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Speaker 1: reduction and how my body feels and my mind feels.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to marijuana, I've been enjoying it, you know,

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Speaker 1: since I was eighteen years old, and um, I've never

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Speaker 1: really been a daily consumer. I can go weeks without

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Speaker 1: it and then, may you know, in the right situation,

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Speaker 1: do it for a few days in a row. Recently,

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Speaker 1: my principal cannabis consumption is a weekly ritual I have,

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Speaker 1: which is, uh, ten milligrams of marijuana, take my headphones,

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Speaker 1: and go for a long massage. So that's part of

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Speaker 1: my healthy aging process. On the other hand, I also

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Speaker 1: say with alcohol, I'm finding my body seems a little

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Speaker 1: less tolerant these days, so I find myself just cutting

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Speaker 1: back on that, and truth be told, I needed to

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Speaker 1: cut back a bit on coffee as well when it

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Speaker 1: seemed to be upsetting my stomach. So I still do

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Speaker 1: my morning a day, and i still have my you know,

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Speaker 1: drink of wall glass of wine occasionally with dinner. But

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Speaker 1: I'm just waiting to see how my body feels about this. Now.

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Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but let me give

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Speaker 1: Julia a chance to answer this one. Well, the joke

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Speaker 1: I usually make is that I've been a drug researcher

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Speaker 1: from a very young age. I really knew what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do in life, and I got an early start,

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Speaker 1: and I'm a bit of a workaholic. So I grew

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Speaker 1: up in the seventies, lots of drugs available to me,

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Speaker 1: lots of things to try, unfortunately sometimes not knowing that

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Speaker 1: I was trying thing and getting another. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: one of my sort of what do you call it

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Speaker 1: when like the comic has a backstory, like their creation story,

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Speaker 1: what is that called? I can't remember? Mine is that

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Speaker 1: when I was in high school, in an effort to

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Speaker 1: try mescaline, I inadvertently experienced PCP. So I had a

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Speaker 1: pretty early, sort of not completely positive drug experience. Although

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Speaker 1: honestly it gave me tremendous empathy for people who are

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Speaker 1: psychotic and going through a psychotic process. So it ended

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Speaker 1: up being foundational to my wanting to be a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 1: wanting to study drugs. But I, you know, I've tried

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Speaker 1: just about everything. When I was an undergrad, I was

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Speaker 1: also a singer in a band, and people were very

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Speaker 1: generous with their drugs, so I got to try more things.

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Speaker 1: And then as I became more sort of enmeshed and

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Speaker 1: intertwined with the psychedelic research community, people would also offer

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Speaker 1: me various things to try. So I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: had a lot of various drug experiences and they helped

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Speaker 1: to inform me about the brain and how it works,

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Speaker 1: and my mind and how that works. And I have

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Speaker 1: found certain things that really helped me open my heart

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Speaker 1: and feel more connected and helped to put me in

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Speaker 1: a in a sort of a healing, parasympathetic state. I

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Speaker 1: spent time going to raves in the nineties and and

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Speaker 1: had these really blissful, you know, group dance experiences. I

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Speaker 1: went to Grateful Dead shows and had that sort of

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Speaker 1: magical group experience. What was your worst experience, Julie, Well,

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Speaker 1: the PCP was pretty tough. I'll tell you. Everything was

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Speaker 1: sort of like a secret sign I had to interpret,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I thought that the because the

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Speaker 1: radio was playing Jimmy Hendricks and Jimmy Hendricks had died

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Speaker 1: of a drug overdose, that meant I was going to

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Speaker 1: die of a drug overdose. It was It was pretty scary.

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Speaker 1: One of the really scariest, most powerful things for me

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Speaker 1: was that I had UM five m e O d

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Speaker 1: M T, which is more potent than d M T uh,

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Speaker 1: and I had a pretty pretty solid dose and that

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Speaker 1: was a lot. It took me a long time to

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Speaker 1: sort of process that or integrate that, and it kept

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Speaker 1: me away from psychedelics actually for about two or three years,

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Speaker 1: because I was so kind of a canna say, literally

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Speaker 1: blown away by it. And I feel like in this

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Speaker 1: case it maybe it maybe living by a long time,

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Speaker 1: you mean, like weeks or months thereafter. No, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just I was impressed by how potent it was,

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Speaker 1: how strong it was. I did have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of like a flashback the next day where the towels

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Speaker 1: looked like they were breathing to me and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: on the drug, and that really upset me because I

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Speaker 1: had spent a long time sort of arguing against this

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Speaker 1: idea that flashbacks even exist. So again, every experience as

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Speaker 1: I have had has really informed me tremendously and been

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Speaker 1: a sort of a jumping point for me to educate

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Speaker 1: myself even more about whatever I've been experiencing. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: gotta see if I think about some of my worst

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Speaker 1: I remember one time, being eighteen or nineteen, I used

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Speaker 1: to go to a sauna if they had at my

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Speaker 1: college up at McGill in Montreal, and my friends and

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Speaker 1: I was sometimes played backgam and see how long we

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Speaker 1: could get into the game before we had to get

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Speaker 1: out of sauna. But one time I got pretty high

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Speaker 1: before I did that, and when I came out a sauna,

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Speaker 1: I almost passed out. And the next day it was

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Speaker 1: like that high was impregnated, just buried in my brain.

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Speaker 1: It took me a day and a half to clear it.

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Speaker 1: And with alcohol, you know, I mean like most people going,

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Speaker 1: you know, in their young twenties, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: my drink too much throw up. I found getting too

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Speaker 1: drunk on bourbon worse than getting too drunk on tequila.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you that one. But I remember there was

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Speaker 1: one point I was starting to drink a little more

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Speaker 1: and I realized one morning that I had had a

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Speaker 1: blackout like I saw in my room. I've been playing

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Speaker 1: all these records for friends and had no recollection of it.

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Speaker 1: And that was just a signal to me, like, uh,

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Speaker 1: enough's enough here. You and I both are not really

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Speaker 1: big drinkers. And I talked to you about my theory.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's more than a theory, but um,

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Speaker 1: there are many people who really don't metabolize alcohol very well,

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Speaker 1: and if they still want to alter themselves, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to find something else to do. And I'm one

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Speaker 1: of those people. I really, I'm just not a good drinker.

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Speaker 1: If I have more than two drinks, I feel absolutely

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Speaker 1: nauseous and vomit and hangovers even from one or two

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Speaker 1: drinks happened to me. So I'm not much of a drinker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I seem to know a lot of people of

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Speaker 1: the Jewish persuasion who aren't great drinkers but are great

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Speaker 1: drug takers or drug policy advocates or drug researchers. And

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Speaker 1: the truth is that Jews don't have a lot of

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Speaker 1: alcohol dehydrogen ase. Hm. Well, it's what's interesting, man, is Jews,

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Speaker 1: you know, probably a higher percentage of Jews drink some

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Speaker 1: alcohol than most other ethnic groups. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I sometimes joked the first time I ever had any

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Speaker 1: wine was when I was seven days old, and they

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Speaker 1: came with that knife at my brists, you know. And

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Speaker 1: then I grew up drinking you know, little bits of

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Speaker 1: wine as a kid when I was just you know, eight, nine,

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Speaker 1: ten years old, and stuff like that. So we sort

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Speaker 1: of grow up with familiarity. We do it in a

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Speaker 1: familial context if it's done in that traditional way, and

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Speaker 1: I sometimes think there was a real social protective element

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Speaker 1: of that kind of a culturation, the same way some

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Speaker 1: of these people talk about Italians and Italian families and

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Speaker 1: drinking all that. Jews tend to drink less, I think. Um,

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Speaker 1: but if you're doing in that ritual context, you get

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Speaker 1: a certain familiarity. So Julie, is anything that you would

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Speaker 1: not try? Oh oh well, you know, I've always sort

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Speaker 1: of drawn the line that I won't personally inject anything

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Speaker 1: into my body for whatever reason. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: have snorted things and smoked things, and on the very

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Speaker 1: rare occasion, put things into other orifices of my body.

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Speaker 1: But you know, my motto growing up was sort of

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Speaker 1: moderation and all things including moderation, like sometimes you've got

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Speaker 1: to kick out the jams and do things that you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't typically do, So maybe never say never. I think

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Speaker 1: I could probably be talked into trying most things once

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Speaker 1: as long as I knew it wouldn't you know, irreversible

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Speaker 1: harm me m hmm, yeah, I used this funny I try.

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Speaker 1: I think there's probably a few of the psychedelics. I

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Speaker 1: remember going to the Tell Your Ride Mushroom conference many

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Speaker 1: years ago that Andy Wyle and others ran, and I

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Speaker 1: met Gary Linkoff, the author of the Automo Guide to

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Speaker 1: Wild Mushrooms, who was very interested in the psychedelic aspects

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Speaker 1: of these things, and he described some experiences I think

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Speaker 1: it was with Datura or some other very powerful fung

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Speaker 1: u from mushroom out of Siberia just doing things to

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Speaker 1: his body that you never want to have happened again.

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Speaker 1: So I could see some things that are kind of

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Speaker 1: off limits. And I think also with the injecting, although

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Speaker 1: I've done that one or two times just with a

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Speaker 1: very trusted friends, uh ministering it, it's not something I

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Speaker 1: pursue wherever would recommend, that's for sure. We'll be talking

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Speaker 1: more after we hear this add Okay, well, let's go

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Speaker 1: to the next question. Hey, Ethan, loving the show. I've

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Speaker 1: got a question. You've talked a lot about the medical

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Speaker 1: and legal implications of a variety of drugs. I'm curious

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Speaker 1: about the humanitarian implications Specifically, I'm wondering about cocaine. Is

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Speaker 1: there a ethical way to do or buy cocaine or

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Speaker 1: is the cocaine trade so sort of dirty and painted

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Speaker 1: with humanitarian issues that it's not ethical at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's no easy answer to that one, right,

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Speaker 1: because on the one hand, you know, the fact that

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Speaker 1: this stuff is illegal means that there's no real way

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Speaker 1: to get it. Otherwise, if you want to use it. Now,

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Speaker 1: with cannabis, you could always argue the only ethical way

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Speaker 1: to do it would be to say, grow your own,

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Speaker 1: and that if you were buying it from people who

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Speaker 1: had grown it, you know, whether in Mexico or Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: or Columbia or California, that's somehow you are participating, contributing

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Speaker 1: to an illicit market, you know, So is cocaine like

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Speaker 1: you know, blood diamonds. In one sense, that's true, right,

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Speaker 1: there are people being exploited, there's violence, there's global criminal

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Speaker 1: organizations that are profiting on this stuff. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: it's also the case that there are hundreds of thousands,

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Speaker 1: if not millions, of relatively impoverished people, whether you're talking

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Speaker 1: about coca growing peasants in South America or whether you're

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Speaker 1: talking about poor people are involved in the retail sale

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Speaker 1: of this stuff who are earning a decent living, sometimes

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Speaker 1: in ways that they could not otherwise earn it. So

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Speaker 1: I think the really responsible thing here is to say

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Speaker 1: that the government should find better ways of legally regulating

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Speaker 1: this so that people can obtain it in a legitimate,

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Speaker 1: safe way without participating in a global black market. But

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Speaker 1: you know, you go back to alcohol prohibition. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the same arguments were made back then, where the alcohol

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Speaker 1: prohibitions were saying, anybody who drinks, which included at that

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Speaker 1: point maybe a good third or more of the country,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're aiding in at betting, the black market

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Speaker 1: and the components and the gangsters and all that. And

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Speaker 1: that was true as far as it went. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, it was an idiotic prohibitionist policy by the

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Speaker 1: government that was putting this whole business in the hands

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Speaker 1: of the gangsters to begin with. So you know, I've

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Speaker 1: never been much of a cocaine consumer. My principal elicits

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Speaker 1: are something like mushrooms or cannabis, which don't really have

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Speaker 1: all that much in the way of substantial ugly criminal

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Speaker 1: organization markets. There's some of that, but it's with cannabis,

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Speaker 1: but not a huge part of it. You know. Look,

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Speaker 1: for most people, I'd say stay away from cocaine anyway,

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Speaker 1: but if you do, it's not going to be the

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Speaker 1: principal concern in the ethics of it. I want to

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Speaker 1: say a few quick things about cocaine. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: whenever something is made illegal, we end up making it

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Speaker 1: stronger and stronger, and that is certainly what happened. The

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Speaker 1: coca leaf went from being something where a person would

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Speaker 1: make a tea out of the leaves or put a

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Speaker 1: leaf or two in there between their cheek and gum,

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Speaker 1: to making a much more strong in terms of a

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Speaker 1: white powder that you could snort or inject, and then

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Speaker 1: even stronger with turning it into the free base crack cocaine.

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Speaker 1: So the truth is that you can buy coca leaves

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Speaker 1: from a farmer and just make the tea or put

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Speaker 1: them in your mouth, and I think that is the

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Speaker 1: sort of safest and most natural way to use cocaine.

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Speaker 1: When you make it stronger, you know, especially when you're

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Speaker 1: snorting it, that is a really short half life. And

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Speaker 1: you know, the joke I used to make back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties is the only way you really appreciate cocaine

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Speaker 1: is once you've been addicted to it and it makes

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Speaker 1: your headache go away, then you like it. It's too

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Speaker 1: quick acting. I think that there are better stimulants that

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Speaker 1: do a better job sort of opening your heart and mind,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like cocaine is a bit of a

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Speaker 1: narrower that it certainly helps with focus and motivation, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's a bit fleeting. Okay, let's go to the

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Speaker 1: next question. Hi, my name is Rachel. I've been working

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Speaker 1: in mica shelters or shelters for people who are mentally

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Speaker 1: ill with chemical addiction for about five years now in

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Speaker 1: New York City, and I've encountered all sorts of substance use. However,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that the most common types of

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Speaker 1: substance use that I see our alcohol used disorder and

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Speaker 1: tobacco used disorder. And I've actually seen more casualties as

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Speaker 1: a result of alcohol use disorder than anything else, and

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Speaker 1: that's with the fentanel crisis in New York City and

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Speaker 1: elsewhere throughout the States. I noticed that a lot of

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Speaker 1: my clients, who especially clients who have psychotic disorders, choose

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Speaker 1: to use alcohol and tobacco to dull their symptoms. Um

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Speaker 1: many of them wind up very physically dependent on alcohol,

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Speaker 1: and some of the casualties that I've seen have actually

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Speaker 1: been from a lack of alcohol or alcohol withdrawal. I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering why there's so little media coverage about alcohol use disorder,

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Speaker 1: specifically because it's such a huge problem. Spending nine years

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Speaker 1: running the Psyche or at Bellevue, I can tell you

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Speaker 1: that the most casualties that we saw at the Psyche

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Speaker 1: or at Bellevue were absolutely related to alcohol and cocaine

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Speaker 1: and not really any other drugs in terms of statistically

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Speaker 1: being significant. So I saw a real lot of fallout

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Speaker 1: from people getting tremendously depressed, tremendously addicted, crashing hard, wanting

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Speaker 1: to die, having spent money they didn't have or other

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Speaker 1: people's money, and selling people's positions. And it does seem

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Speaker 1: like it really does a number on people and on

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Speaker 1: communities more than a lot of other drugs that we

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Speaker 1: have access to. I also got very frustrated that alcohol

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Speaker 1: wasn't really being portrayed accurately, and there wasn't accurate information

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Speaker 1: about alcohol really being disseminated, because alcohol is actually the

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Speaker 1: only drug that can kill you in withdrawal. It's medically

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Speaker 1: dangerous to abruptly discontinue alcohol if you're using a high

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Speaker 1: dose every day, and there's a thirty percent chance that

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Speaker 1: you will have seizures that don't stop, and that is

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Speaker 1: typically the thing that will kill you. Alcohol also is

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Speaker 1: absolutely toxic to your liver and to your brain. And

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Speaker 1: as much as we have this idea, which is really

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Speaker 1: wrong that drugs are toxic to your brain, for the

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Speaker 1: most part, there's nothing that's going to compare with alcohol

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Speaker 1: in terms of chronic consumption and shrinking your cerebellum and

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Speaker 1: causing tremendous memory problems and causing dementia. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're doing her a favor, and we're doing everybody a

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Speaker 1: favor by really letting people know that alcohol is really

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Speaker 1: a toxic drug. There is a higher rate of addiction

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Speaker 1: with alcohol than there is with some other drugs. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know that in the drug policy community we're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to sort of put down one drug and elevate another.

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Speaker 1: But I will say that at Bellevue, most of the

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Speaker 1: casualties we saw were from alcohol and cocaine, and so

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Speaker 1: it's hard for me to sort of vault their use

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Speaker 1: except for in very low dose, ritualized kind of settings. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I mean this also will be clear, right, I

428
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: mean we're talking about high dose alcohol, right, I mean,

429
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: a large majority of our population others are doing low

430
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: dose alcohol. Um, there's obviously I agree with the risk

431
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: and about being the really bad drug out there in

432
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: many regards. On the other hand, there's also this really

433
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: interesting evidence from around the world that moderate consumption is

434
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: when goes older, it can reduce cardio rat vascular risks

435
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: and perhaps lent in life. Um. You know, there's a

436
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: campaign by World Health Organization that's almost an abstinence only

437
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: campaign with alcohol now that we have to ward against.

438
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the shelters and things like that.

439
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: You know, one thing people should know about is there's

440
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: a type of policy or innovation in some cities called

441
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: quote unquote wet housing has other names for it as well.

442
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: But it basically is the basic idea that you have

443
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: people who are severely addicted to alcohol, who, as Julie

444
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: would say, would quite likely, you know, go through the

445
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: dts and die if they were suddenly withdrawn. They are

446
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: frequently being arrested, landing up in emergency rooms. So a

447
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: number of cities, from Seattle to Toronto to a range

448
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: of others, even some of the Midwest set up this

449
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: housing where people can live there and they're allowed to drink,

450
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: and there's some rules. I mean, you know, you can't

451
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: be an asshole, you can't be violent, but you're allowed

452
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: to drink in this place. Some places will even provide

453
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: some of the alcohol. And the evaluations of this wet

454
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: housing have found, in fact that what happens is that

455
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: the people in this wet housing land up drinking less

456
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: than they did on the streets because they don't need

457
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: it as much anymore. They land up being arrested less

458
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: than even emergency is less more likely to reconnect with

459
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: their families or get low level jobs and things like that.

460
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: So it's a great innovation, not unlike you know, other

461
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: harm reduction programs, needle exchange programs, what have you, I

462
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: wish we had more of this, you know, in New

463
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: York City and a range of other places. I mean,

464
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: it's almost like a supervised injection facility. So I support

465
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: the idea of supervised injection facilities, and I definitely love

466
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: this idea of what housing. It is harm reduction at

467
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: its finest, you're really reducing medical harm, social harm. You know,

468
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: high dose alcohol is associated with violence, with homicide, and

469
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: with suicide, which is something that we don't talk about

470
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: very much. Suicide is a leading cause. It's one of

471
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: the leading causes of death in America. It probably is

472
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: the leading cause of accidental death. Now it's overtaken motor

473
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: vehicle accidents. And you know, then there's all those overdoses,

474
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: and you can overdose on alcohol. So anything where you're supervised,

475
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: where you're educated, where you're supported, you're gonna end up safer,

476
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: maybe using less and more importantly, like you were talking

477
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: about ethan, re establishing connections, creating a new support system

478
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: so you're not so isolated, because the pain of isolation

479
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: sometimes drives unhealthy choices around alcohol and other drugs. Yeah,

480
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: and it's not just right that you can overdose just

481
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: by drinking too much alcohol by itself, but that until

482
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: the advent of fentonel, many or most opioid overdoses. When

483
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: you saw that headline saying heroin over those he and

484
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: over almost inevitably it involved combining heroin with either alcohol

485
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: or benzos, which is the other drug like alcohol where

486
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: if you suddenly withdraw you might die, and the other

487
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: one that can be very deadly when you're combining with

488
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: things like opioids or alcohol. In terms of dramatically increasing

489
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: the risk of overdose, I mean, fentonel, of course, is

490
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: something we're all by itself. It's powerful enough that you

491
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: can just dive in overdose. But with most street heroin

492
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: that was not really the case. Alcohol was the hidden killer.

493
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: But the headlines they could have say at alcohol over

494
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 1: those deaths and then report in the background at all

495
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: there was heroin evolved as well, but it was really

496
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: the combo of those two things. Yeah, Hi, this question

497
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: is for Dr Holland. I'm a big fan of your

498
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: work and your writing and m appreciative that I get

499
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: to ask you a question. I was hoping you could

500
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: speak to the potential benefits of psilocybin therapy versus the

501
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: risks of people coming off of long term medications such

502
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: as benzodiazepines and things that help with anxiety or depression,

503
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: knowing that from what I understand, you have to kind

504
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: of taper off those medications before you can try psilocybin

505
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: for therapy. So I was hoping you could speak to

506
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: um the protocol of coming off of meds and how

507
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: soon a person can start to try to use mushrooms

508
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: therapeutically once they've come off of their meds. This is

509
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: a really great question, and I get asked this uh

510
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: in various forms a lot, which is this idea. Basically,

511
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: I'm on psych meds, I want to try psychedelics. What

512
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: do I do? And it's really complicated because there are

513
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: different psychedelics that have different rules, and sometimes you're talking

514
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: about medical safety and other times you're just talking about efficacy.

515
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: For instance, it may not be terribly dangerous to take

516
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: m d M A with an S s R I,

517
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: but you really won't feel the m D M A,

518
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: so there's not much point and it probably is not

519
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: good for you. But there's growing evidence that you may

520
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: be able to take psilocybin even though you're on S

521
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: S R I S for a long time, I was saying,

522
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: we don't have data, we don't have data, but they

523
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: just started to be the tiniest bit of data showing.

524
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: There was a study that I think it was Mattias Leakda,

525
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: but I'm not positive and I don't want to misspeak,

526
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: but there was a study that just came out showing

527
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: that they gave S S R S for two weeks

528
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: before they gave psilocybin and people still did feel the psilocybin. So, anyway,

529
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: the most dangerous combinations really have to do with ayahuasca,

530
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: where there are certain medicines you absolutely cannot take. But

531
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: the other question that got brought up, which is about

532
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: coming off medicines so you can have an experience, right,

533
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: and this is a really fragile, difficult experiment to do.

534
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: If you've been on psycho medicine for a long time

535
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: and you want to come off them for any reason,

536
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: you have to do it with somebody who is a psychiatrist,

537
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: who is at least a medical doctor who knows you,

538
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: who can work with you, because you have to very

539
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: very slowly taper, preferably with something else in place. You know,

540
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: there are some medicines that I use that you can

541
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: safely combine with psilocybin or other medicine so that you

542
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: don't have to be totally off meds. But it is

543
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: a very vulnerable place if you've come off meds, and

544
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: also if you've had a very intense psychedelic experience, you're

545
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: in a vulnerable place. You need support and integration, and

546
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: you're off meds. That's dangerous. So these things really have

547
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: to be done. I'm not saying it has to be

548
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: a medical model, but I am saying that if you're

549
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: coming off of medicines, that does have to be a

550
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: medical model, and that anybody who's having macro doses needs

551
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: a lot of support before, during, and after so they

552
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: can process everything that happened. And sometimes you have to

553
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: go back on your meds. It's just too much to

554
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: have just unearthed the trauma and be off meds. It

555
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: is a dangerous process, and I'm glad that people are

556
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: asking about it and talking about it. I mean, Julie,

557
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: what do you think in terms of uh, you know,

558
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: when people are saying that as psychedelic medicine proceeds, this

559
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: could actually displace a not insignificant part of the broader

560
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: s s R I and other sort of pharmaceutical treatments

561
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: of mood disorders, depression, things like that. What's your thought

562
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: about that? I say yes please, and when absolutely, I

563
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: mean we you know, I've been doing psycho farm since

564
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: it has not changed very much. It's the daily dose.

565
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: It's sweeping a lot of things under the carpet and

566
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: just not minding that you have a lumpy carpet. And

567
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: as you know, I mean a macro dose of psychedelics

568
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: really takes the carpet out back and you whack it

569
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: and you can vacuum up the floor in the meantime,

570
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you can get a lot of deep work done.

571
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: And everybody's got trauma, right, every person, no matter how

572
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: easy your childhood was. Even if you were born with

573
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: a silver spoon, at some point somebody was looking the

574
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: other way and the spoon went into your eye. You know,

575
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: you were not parented perfectly all the time, I guarantee it.

576
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: And everybody has trauma and everybody needs to sort of

577
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: sift through some of that to feel better. And the

578
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: way we've been doing in psychiatry lately is that you

579
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: just take the meds to feel better and you don't

580
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: necessarily deal with all the trauma um And I would

581
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: even go further and say that our country has childhood

582
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: trauma that you know, the way we treated indigenous populations

583
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: and the way that we treated the Black community, our

584
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: country has deep childhood wounding and trauma that needs to

585
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: be processed. And all of us on our screens and

586
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: taking our meds and not dealing with our own trauma,

587
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: not dealing with our country's trauma, it's creating a big mess.

588
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: So I think psychedelics can help us really unearthed some

589
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: of the causes for psychiatric symptoms. Yeah, you know, it

590
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: was interesting on a discussion with Michael paul In a

591
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: little while back, we talked about peyote in Native American

592
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: church and how part of that, you know, the value

593
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: there is in dealing with the sorts of traumas that

594
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about right there. And it's also why I

595
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 1: think there's you know, a more and more vigorous effort

596
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: to try to engage with African American communities, black people

597
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: about seeing it can there be because there's been this resistance,

598
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, to all drugs and psychedelics being thrown in

599
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: with all the bad drugs, But could this actually play

600
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: a constructive and positive role in some of those regards. Well,

601
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, there was this work looking at racial trauma

602
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: and using psychedelics to start to address the effects of

603
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: racial trauma, and you know that was Monica Williams work

604
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: just came out, and one of the things that they

605
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: were looking at that really made a difference is just

606
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: this sort of cognitive flexibility of starting to just open

607
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: up your perspectives a little bit. Yeah, but Julia, I

608
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: have more and more people asking me like, hey, where

609
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: can I find a guided session using psilocybin or something

610
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: like that? And it's still unless you get yourself enrolled

611
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: in some kind of research study, it's still essentially an

612
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: underground enterprise, right. I mean, nobody's really be getting busted

613
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: for this stuff, but nobody's really advertising it on the

614
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: internet either. Well I don't know. I mean I don't

615
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: go on the you know, dark web or whatever, so

616
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: I can't say what's available where. But you know, this

617
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: is a really weird phase in psychiatry where we've got

618
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of new treatments that are really going to

619
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: be at our disposal but not quite yet. And you know,

620
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: the only one that's legal right now is ketamine and

621
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the ketamine clinics are set up and

622
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: they've got the infrastructure set up, but they're planning on

623
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: offering other drugs once those things are available. M hm, well,

624
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: I think we got a question about ketamine. Yeah, this

625
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: is Jill By. I was calling to um read a

626
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: message for Dr Needleman and Dr Hollard. Um. It's just

627
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: wondering what her opinion is on psychotherapy. It's just and

628
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: husion and she's done them and if she thinks they're valuable,

629
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: thank you very much. So, I mean, Julie, what about

630
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: the role of ketamine here? I mean it's like the one,

631
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, legal thing out there. How big a role

632
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: do you think it's going to play in all this,

633
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: whether it's in depression or in other sorts of conditions. Um,

634
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: Ketamine has has been a real bush whacker really for

635
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: the field of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. You know, this is

636
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: an FDA approved drug for treatment resistant depression. First of all,

637
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: what's a bush whacker Like somebody who goes ahead and

638
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: cuts down all the bushes so that it's easier for

639
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: you to walk behind them. What would you call that?

640
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: It's building a foundation for psychedelic assistant psychotherapy. It is

641
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: the one that's legal now, and it's not nothing. I mean,

642
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: it absolutely puts you in I'm not going to say

643
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: that it's a psychedelic state exactly. I mean this, Look,

644
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: I'm doing a whole interview pretty soon about whether ketamine

645
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: is a psychedelic. Why are we calling it a psychedelic.

646
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: It is a dissociative anesthetic. It's not officially a psychedelic.

647
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: It's not a classical psychedelic. It does not tickle the

648
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: five H T two a receptor, which you could sort

649
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: of think of as like the psychedelic receptor. Ketamine acts

650
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: on the glutamate system. It actually acts in a way

651
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: that is similar to both dexter methorphan, which is a

652
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: copt suppressant, and PCP. So it is a dissociate anesthetic.

653
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: But when you are in that dissociated state, you're in

654
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: sort of a space where you can think about your issues,

655
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: or your behavior or your trauma um. You are in

656
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: an altered state, and it is a state that you

657
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 1: can engage in psychotherapy. You could be talking to a therapist,

658
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: you could be taking notes, writing things. I know people

659
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: who sort of surface right down some notes and then

660
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: they go back in to see what's going on. Then

661
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: they come up right in a few more things. I

662
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: think that it is a catalyst to help psychotherapy go

663
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: deeper and possibly be more efficient at getting to traumas

664
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: and starting to work through traumas. So in that way,

665
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: it's great in terms of treating depression. Some people have

666
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: really strong reactions to it and get better. Most people,

667
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: even if they get better, they don't stay better, so

668
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: they need sort of like booster treatments. But that tends

669
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: to be just the IVY without the talking. Ken Amine

670
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: assisted psychotherapy is when you're really talking through the therapy,

671
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: which is what you would do with m D m

672
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: A or with psilocybin um. I know it can be done.

673
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: It is done. I have patients who are slowly sort

674
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: of unwinding their cognitive rigidity around certain compulsions or rituals

675
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: or ways of thinking. You know, maybe you can sort

676
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: of change the tapes that are running in your playing

677
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: in your mind in the background. So I definitely think

678
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: that it has therapeutic potential. But in terms of M

679
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: D m A or psilocybin I would say, you know,

680
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 1: you ain't seen nothing yet. If he think ketamine works.

681
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: Wait till what's coming down the pike. Yeah, I mean

682
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: she'll say, you know, I think with ketamine for people

683
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: are interested in One of the godfathers is not the

684
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: guide father research in this area is a fellow named

685
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: Phil Wolfson, and it's worth you know, googling him checking

686
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 1: out his website for his fantastic information. Interviews that are there,

687
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: and a forthcoming episode of Psychoactive will be an interview

688
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: with professionalized Daquar Columbia, who has one of the few

689
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: federally approved grants in which he was doing ketamine administration

690
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: with meditation in in order to help people deal with

691
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: substance abuse. So there really is potential there. There's also

692
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: using it at a high dose intervention as well as

693
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: low dose, so there's different methodologies that are people trying

694
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: to work out well. Worries me is to see these

695
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: kind of fly by night places beginning to pop up

696
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: all around the country. You know, you get some anesthesiologists

697
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: who wants it will make a little extra money on

698
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: the side. They set it up there administering it in

699
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: a kind of non healthy environment. They're not doing the

700
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: processing and the integration, and I think that's one of

701
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: the concerns where Kennyman could actually land up getting a

702
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: bad name because of this proliferation of people using it

703
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: without even never having tried it themselves or really knowing

704
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: the literature and knowing the proper way to do this.

705
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: I absolutely agree. I've had patients of pretty bad experiences

706
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: because they're just left on a stretcher with an I

707
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: V running and no one to talk to. And it's

708
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: a pretty weird state to be in if you're not

709
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: used to altered states. Um. The other thing it's worth

710
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: mentioning is that it absolutely has a much higher abuse

711
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: potential addiction potential than any of the classic psychedelics. My

712
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: chire and I have patients who go to NA meetings

713
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: or other twelve step meetings with all sorts of different

714
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: people and groups, and they're saying that they're seeing more

715
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: people coming in from Kenemine. So, you know, we have

716
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: heard over the years. I don't know even you and

717
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: I know some of the same people. Every once in

718
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: a while you heard about somebody having a little bit

719
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: of an issue with Kenemine. They usually, you know, get

720
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: through it, get around it, but it does kind of

721
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: pull some people in for some reason. People it can

722
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: be addicted. You gotta be careful, you know. I will

723
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: say that I had my own experience doing it last

724
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: year with somebody who was at Kennemine therapist. I was

725
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: surprised at its power. It was short, only hour and

726
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: a half. You know. I'm usually pretty grounded even when

727
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: I'm doing high dose psilocybe and lushrooms, but this one

728
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: took me some places and I found it really valuable

729
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: in terms of some of the insights that I took

730
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: away from there. Definitely, it is a bit untethering, you know,

731
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: so you do sort of end up out there a bit.

732
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: And also the fact that it's short acting is great

733
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: for therapy, you know. One of the issues with these

734
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: medicines like m D m A maybe maybe three or

735
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: four hours little I've been made before to six hours LSD,

736
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: you're looking at easily ten or twelve hours. That's a

737
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: long time to sit and talk to your therapist, you know.

738
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: So some of the companies are looking to make some

739
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: of these drugs shorter acting so that you can have

740
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: more like an hour or two experience and then kind

741
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: of get your head together and go back out in

742
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: the world. And that will be interesting to see. But

743
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: that is one of the advantages of ketamine is that

744
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: it is fairly short acting. In fact, I understand that,

745
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons why you don't hear

746
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: as much about LSD or mescaline as you do about

747
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: psilocybin for some of these research studies is that there

748
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: could be twelve hour experiences, and the amount of time

749
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: and the cost of having a therapist sit there for

750
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: that long is a major impediment to trying to make

751
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: this stuff more widely available. Yeah, it's too much. You know.

752
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: The thing I used to say about LSD back in

753
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: the day is like you're pretty much guaranteed to see

754
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: the sunrise when you take acides. You know, it's just

755
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: it's doesn't matter when you take it. You know, it's

756
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: just you're still going. Maybe you're done, maybe you've got

757
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: the message, you want to hang up the phone, but

758
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: the phone still calling you. So I think, especially if yeah,

759
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: if you're doing research, you know, it's tiring for the patient,

760
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: it's tiring for the therapist, everybody who's you know, monitoring

761
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: the session. And you know, I think one of the

762
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: things that mine met is looking to do is to

763
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: basically cap the experience, so it's shorter. They and some

764
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: other companies I believe are looking at ways too, so

765
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: that they can use LSD, but that they can make

766
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: it shorter. Acting. Let's take a break here and go

767
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: to an ad. Yes, this is Marcia Rosenbomb in San Francisco.

768
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: My question to Julie and Ethan comes as a parent,

769
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: I need to ask always with the drug issue, what

770
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: about the kids? Specifically? I'm interested in your take on

771
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: the new emergence of psychedelics and also vaping and e cigarettes.

772
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: Those two, it seems to me, are key issues when

773
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: it comes to kids today. And you're both parents, How

774
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: did you deal personally with these issues when your kids

775
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: were teenagers? What did you say to them? What would

776
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: you say to other parents who are concerned about kids

777
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: and drugs? Well, I guess I should reveal our audience.

778
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: That's a bit of a loaded planted question there. The

779
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: caller Marcia Rosenbaum, um, who is my my dear, dear

780
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: friend and longtime colleague, and also who Julian knows well.

781
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: She really pioneered and founded the safety first approach to

782
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: drug education, basically introducing a sex education model or harm

783
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: education approach to drug education with adolescence and emphasizing that

784
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: you don't want kids using drugs, but if they do,

785
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: the bottom line has got to be about keeping them safe.

786
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean what I would say to

787
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: Marcia on this, and I really to our listeners, um

788
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: is you know it's funny. I was talking to my

789
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: daughter about this. Who now? Who's now? And are you thirties?

790
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 1: And you know our understanding is I don't talk about

791
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: anything involving what she may or may not have done,

792
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: or we might have done together or whatever. But you

793
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: know what she said to me was Dad. You know

794
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: what you can say is that you always talked very

795
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: openly to me about this and honestly and non judgmentally.

796
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: And it meant that when there was an issue with

797
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: me or my friends or something I knew, I could

798
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: give you a call and get the best possible advice

799
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: about whether it was a friend going through a bad

800
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: trip with to deal with that, or had it relate

801
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: to the whole cannabis stuff or tobacco and nicotine stuff. Um,

802
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: you know that that was valuable. And I can also

803
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: say that when it comes to psychedelics, I know quite

804
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: a number of people who either did mushrooms, typically with

805
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: their teenage child or people who are now growing who

806
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: did it with their parents when they were young. And

807
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: I have to say in those cases, I mean, I

808
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: tend to know more responsible people where those things generally

809
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: worked out pretty well. That's not to recommend it, it's

810
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: just to say it's not that remarkably unusual or heretical.

811
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: But Julie, what do you say. Well, I've been sort

812
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: of preaching harm reduction since the mid eighties, and I

813
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: had my kids in two thousand, two thousand four, so

814
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: they were really born into Amilia where there was a

815
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: lot of talk and of drug use and drug safety

816
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: and benefit maximization and harm minimization and the importance of education.

817
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: Like my kids have been hearing this since, you know,

818
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: before they could talk. The biggest thing, I think it's

819
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: the same for me and for you, Ethan. You know,

820
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: the biggest thing to me was always that I wanted

821
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: them to be able to come to me. I wanted

822
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: them to be able to ask me any question and

823
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: know that they were going to get an answer. I

824
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: wanted them to know that there was no shame in

825
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: any of it. Sex, drugs, it's all natural, it's all

826
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: normal to want to alter yourself, to want to connect

827
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: with other people, or connect with yourself, or connect with nature. So, UM,

828
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: my daughter, she's not very into drugs at all. And

829
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of her ways of sort

830
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: of defining herself, you know, apart from me, is that

831
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: she does alcohol and she doesn't really like drugs very much. UM.

832
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: Our son, his tastes go more towards where my taste

833
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: go in terms of drugs he likes or drugs he's

834
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: interested in. UM. But we you know, we are in

835
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: a town where there really is a lot of stigma

836
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: and shame around drug use. It's very conservative town. It's

837
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: a very churchy town. I love it here, but the

838
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 1: drug education in the high school is terrible. And I've

839
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: sort of decided my son as a senior now. And

840
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that my to do

841
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: list is that once he leaves and I won't embarrass him,

842
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: I really want to work with them on their curriculum

843
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: to change things. Because the drugs that are mostly used

844
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: here with with my kids in this in this town

845
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: is alcohol and vaping. And either this is when we're

846
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: going to kind of get into it, I'm afraid, but

847
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: a lot of my son's friends are addicted to nicotine

848
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: and are having trouble stopping. And I was a cigarette

849
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: smoker for many, many years. I actually started smoking this

850
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: is fun in fifth grade when I was ten. I

851
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: was very tough with the girl James Dean was completely

852
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: like my hero. I had like a denim jacket with

853
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: the collar up and the cigarette hanging out of my mouth.

854
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: Nobody bothered to tell me I was a girl at

855
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: that point. I was just like a total tomboy. But

856
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: I've been smoking cigarettes offen on since I was ten

857
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: years old, and it was hard for me to quit.

858
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: As you can imagine. It took me several times. I

859
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: quit for a couple of years, I would come back

860
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: to it, quit for a couple of years, come back

861
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: to it. And you know, I was honest with the

862
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: kids about how hard it was for me to quit smoking,

863
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: and how I really didn't want them to smoke cigarettes.

864
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: I really don't want them anywhere near white powders because

865
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: they don't know what they are. And you know, it's

866
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: pretty hard to counterfeit, and most people don't counterfeit things

867
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: like cannabis and mushrooms and and things that you can

868
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: easily look at them and know what they are. My

869
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: kids know not to smoke pot if it's wet or

870
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: smells like from aldehyde. Um. I know a lot about

871
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: PCP and from the inside out, and you know, my

872
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: kids know that that may be one that they would

873
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: like to avoid, and they tell their friends. So, you know,

874
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: for for me, I feel like it's kind of worked out.

875
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: My kids are good, they're healthy, they understand harm reduction philosophy,

876
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 1: and they've chosen really sort of different paths. Yeah, you know,

877
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: Julia if I one of my outest moments was when

878
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: my daughter Lila was I think in junior high school

879
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: and the DARE officer was there and getting a little

880
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: talk and Lyla raises her hand and says, first of all,

881
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: have you read the book Marijuana Miss Marijuana Facts by

882
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: John Morrigan and lind Zimmer, which was the outstanding book

883
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: in the nineties and early two thousands, you know, analyzing

884
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: the dad of marijuana. And he shook his head, and

885
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: then he said, and what about the medical value of marijuana?

886
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: You know? So I was immensely proud of my daughter

887
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: standing up to him. The other thing is this whole

888
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,479
Speaker 1: issue about parents being on in front of their kids.

889
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: I mean in a way because I first became a

890
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: public figure the year Lyla was born in and you know,

891
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: I've been in a world where marijuana is just sort

892
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: of part of the milieu. So she grew up knowing

893
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: that her dad would, you know, smoke this thing. And

894
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: I was very anti tobacco, anti cigarettes, something of my

895
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: friends who were professors, and she might be with us

896
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: when she was a kid, and she would see us

897
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: smoking and joint sharing a joint. We and we didn't change,

898
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: our personalities didn't change. These were people who were like

899
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: her uncles and aunts. So she developed a kind of understanding.

900
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: And now I wasn't living in a community like you are.

901
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: That's so conservative, you know, Lila. I had to teach

902
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: her at the age of six, in the age of

903
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: nine and twelve as she grew up different ways of

904
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: understanding that and how to relate to it, and how

905
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: to talk about it, and talking to her about unjust

906
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: laws and why this is not right, and also making

907
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: a distinction between something that somebody does occasionally and something

908
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: that people do too much of, and between cannabis on

909
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: the one hand and tobacco on the other. Now, when

910
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: it comes to this issue of tobacco and with a

911
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: whole vaping, e cigarette vaping thing and stuff like that.

912
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, no kids out of lessons we know

913
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: knowledge and they not smoke, they shouldn't be vaping. Let's

914
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: just establish that, right. It's not a good idea, you know,

915
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: for at all this to be doing any of these

916
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: drugs quite frankly, right. But when you look closely at

917
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: the evidence, just a number of things that I think

918
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: are really important to understand. The first one that is

919
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: that overwhelmingly the evid it indicates that vaping, these e cigarettes, jeweling,

920
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: you name it, are dramatically less dangerous than cigarettes, just

921
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: because most of what's dangerous about cigarettes is the burnt

922
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: particle matter. Right, It's not the nicotine. Nicotine hooks you,

923
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: but nicotine is not a particularly bad drug for your health.

924
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: It's that it hooks you so easily, and if you

925
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: then start consuming the nicotine and a smokable form, that's

926
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: what's really deadly about it. And I think the evidence

927
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: is still out and it's probably gonna turn out that

928
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: vaping and thesics turn out to be less addictive than cigarettes. Secondly,

929
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: when you look really closely at the evidence. It turns

930
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: out that most kids who are vaping are not sticking

931
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: with it, and they're not getting dependent upon it. And

932
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: oftentimes the one who do are the ones who already

933
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: had some experiences consuming tobacco or cigarettes in other forms,

934
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: right they were not necessarily there, tend to be less

935
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: likely to have been the tobacco naive folks, or they're

936
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: the ones who are more open to risk taking behavior.

937
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,879
Speaker 1: So I think we need to understand that variable as well.

938
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: There's almost no evidence of people moving from vaping into

939
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes, although it concerns made is that a majority

940
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: of Americans now believe that vaping is as or more

941
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: dangerous than cigarettes. And that's one n eighty degrees different

942
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 1: than the truth. But it's a kind of information that's

943
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: being promoted by the anti you know, nicotine organizations and

944
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 1: by government agencies. Most people still believe that what happened

945
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago where people were landing up

946
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: in the hospital with something called the Valley of vaping

947
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: related disease and lung disease, and there were two thousand

948
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: hospitalizations and dozens of deaths, They still think that was

949
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 1: about the cigarettes, when in fact it had essentially nothing

950
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: to do with these cigarettes. It was entirely about illegally

951
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: produced tainted THHC cartridges. So I think there's reason for

952
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: concern about less and vaping. But when you look at

953
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: the benefit for adult smokers, where e cigarettes turn out

954
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: to be more effective than anything else we now have available,

955
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: more effective than patches and gums and medications in helping

956
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: people stop smoking. The benefits of making this stuff easily available,

957
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: including in non tobacco flavors for adults, is a huge advantage,

958
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: and the risk and downside for young people of getting

959
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: into this is you know, modest at best. When the

960
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: leading experts in the world about this, Ken Warner, the

961
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: former Dina University of Michigan School of Public Health, who's

962
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: modeled this out, comparing you know, the potential risk to

963
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: kids with benefits to adult smokers, what you see is

964
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: an overwhelming benefit in terms of years of life saved

965
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 1: if we can popularize the cigarettes among adults and hopefully

966
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: keep it down and discourage it among young people. But

967
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be freaking out and it shouldn't be driving

968
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: policy the way it has. Hey, Ethan actually love the show.

969
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: I know you're involved in drug policy and activism for

970
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: a while. But now that you stepped down from that,

971
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: have you begoten more involved in the business side of drugs?

972
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: Have you invested in any cannabis and psyched Dallas businesses?

973
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: And where do you think that whole industry is heading? Yeah,

974
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: or ethan? Are you on any payrolls of any of

975
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: these vape companies. I take absolutely not a penny from

976
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: anybody in the tobacco, nicotine, vape, you name it. And

977
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 1: I think it's not because I have a huge ethical

978
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: reservation against doing it. I just think that the smearing

979
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: of reputations and the ad hominant attacks in this area

980
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: around tobacco harm reduction versus absence only tobacco policies is

981
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: more vicious than anything I ever encountered in the entire

982
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: drug war, drug policy reform areas. So I stay clear

983
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: of that. I remember you saying that at Horizons a

984
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: while back. Yeah, but you know, I'll tell you when

985
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: it comes to it. Was interesting when I stepped down

986
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 1: from running Drug Policy Alliance four or four and at

987
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: years ago, all sorts of people you know, were saying ethan, ethan.

988
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you played a pivotal role in inventing this industry.

989
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 1: It wouldn't exist at this point, but for the work

990
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: you did, you should get in there and profit in it.

991
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: And so a whole bunch of companies were interested in

992
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: having me on their advisory boards, and I would have

993
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: been paid something for that, and I couldn't bring myself

994
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: to do it. You know, it just seemed unseemly to

995
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: jump from being a nonprofit advocate for policy reform for

996
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: ethical and policy reasons to being on the for profit side.

997
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: And I was wary of getting involved with any one

998
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: individual company because in case they got in trouble, you know,

999
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 1: then my being involved with them publicly would be um

1000
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: kind of negative news item and affect my reputation and such.

1001
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I also just even avoided

1002
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: investing at all. But then this year I decided to

1003
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: change a bit. So what I've done is I'm still

1004
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: not getting involved with any individual companies. I did earlier

1005
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: this year invest in one of the marijuana hedge funds,

1006
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: where basically I don't even know what they're invested in.

1007
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: So it's a way for me to kind of be

1008
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: involved in the industry when my own money without having

1009
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: any conflicts in the sense that I don't know which

1010
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: company they're doing or any of that sort of stuff.

1011
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: Of course, I invested exactly the wrong time early in

1012
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: the year, so my investment is probably down twenty five

1013
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: percent since I put the money in UM. The second

1014
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: thing I did was that a few months ago I

1015
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: got a phone call UM from a fellow Tom Blaney,

1016
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: who had been the outside accountant and his firm for

1017
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance for like twenty years and done a

1018
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: great job. And he explained to me that his firm

1019
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: was actually involved with on the few big firms doing this,

1020
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: p KF O'Connor Davies UM. So I just recently the

1021
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 1: summer signed a little contract with them to advise them

1022
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: and to try to open up some doors for them

1023
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: UM so that they can be you know, prideing financial

1024
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: services for people in the industry. So that's been my

1025
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: involvement there. And just very recently, after actually a little

1026
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: consultation with Julie, I joined the advisory board of one

1027
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: of the psychedelics investment funds. But Julie, what about you?

1028
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: What about me? So I am on the scientific advisory

1029
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: board of a few companies. One is a cannabis grow

1030
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: operation called Maui Grown Therapies that's in Hawaii, And I

1031
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: advise a psychedelic VC firm called Paulo Santo UM and

1032
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: a few other things. I mean, there's a really interesting

1033
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: company called a Pathica that's working with artificial intelligence and

1034
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: the psychedelic space that I think is going to do well.

1035
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: So I'm advising them. Yeah, anything working out well for

1036
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: you as yet or right now, they're all kind of

1037
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: long term bits. Yeah. Well, you know, actually one of

1038
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: the things I'm really excited about UM and you know,

1039
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: Dimitri mugianis and maybe Ross Ellenhorn, I know, you know Dmitri.

1040
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you know Ross, But they and

1041
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 1: I are trying to sort of create a psychedelic retreat

1042
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: company but also to have a presence in in Manhattan,

1043
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: and they're called Cardia UM. They want to have a

1044
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: retreat in Costa Rica and Jamaica and here in the

1045
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: United States once once that is legal to do, so

1046
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: maybe Oregon, you know, if our listeners are interested. I mean,

1047
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: Dmitri Mugian is a wonderful human being. Here. There's a

1048
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: documentary about his work with Ibi Gaine. Do you remember

1049
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: the name of it. Julie. Yes. Dangerous with Love. Dangerous

1050
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: with Love I highly recommend is a very honest, uh

1051
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: documentary about his experience administering I Begain and then doing eboga,

1052
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: the the root origin of I begin himself. Yeah, and

1053
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: I'll tell them it's like yellice thing. I'm really just

1054
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 1: learning it. I mean, I've begun speaking a few events,

1055
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: this one fund, the Jails Fund that's been you know,

1056
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: one of the startup funds in this I'm kind of

1057
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: intrigued to see if I can be helpful to them

1058
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: and learn as I go. So I don't feel the

1059
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: same um resistance I did before I sort of developed.

1060
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: And it was frustrating, of course, because when you do

1061
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: the work I do, you sometimes get a sense of

1062
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: which companies and which people are going to be most successful.

1063
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: And so when I look back, I realized that some

1064
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: of the people I most liked and appreciated and who

1065
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: I might have invested with are the ones who in

1066
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: fact have done the best in this industry. So I

1067
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: do have little bits of regret, but I feel in

1068
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: the end, I'm doing okay, and uh, you know, I'm

1069
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: happy to have created this change without having profited from it.

1070
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: As yet yeah, you and I are also sort of

1071
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: involved in non various nonprofit projects and things like that.

1072
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always felt very uh maybe not officially

1073
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: involved with dp A, but certainly unofficially adjacently always involved

1074
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: with d p A. And you know, with MAPS, have

1075
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: been the medical monitor that's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic

1076
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: Studies MAPS dot org and be the medical monitor off

1077
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: and on for them for like twenty years, and now

1078
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: i'm their medical advisor. But none of these things really

1079
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: pay anything, I should say, you know, it's not really

1080
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: about the money. No, that's right. You know, I decided

1081
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: on LEFTB I was not going to stand on the board,

1082
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: but I haven'tformally continued to advise, and I'm on the

1083
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: advisory board. I see US, for example, which is a

1084
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: wonderful organization that organizes the World Ayahuaska Congress. I'm on

1085
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: their advisory board. There's another advisory board in terms of

1086
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: representing the perspectives and interests of people who are responsibly

1087
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: receiving opioid medications but are getting discriminated against because of

1088
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: the way the pendulum has swung against proper pain management

1089
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: because of some of the abuses on that we're done

1090
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: in the past. So yeah, I know there's a lot

1091
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: of that, but none of the service on these nonprofits

1092
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 1: pays anything. It's really something we do because we care

1093
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: about the cause and never stop will that never will

1094
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: stop caring, never stop will. Couldn't have said a better myself. Yeah, yeah,

1095
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: big Stonor look at you, Yeah, Julie. Well you know

1096
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: we do. We do. We we live good lives, We

1097
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 1: have fun in this stuff. We fight the evils of

1098
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: the drug war, Yes we do. We're very healthy. People

1099
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: tell us how young we look all the time because

1100
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: we put anti inflammatories into our system on a regular basis. Okay,

1101
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,479
Speaker 1: that's when we're looking at it. A lot of people,

1102
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 1: I think, realize that cannabis is anti inflammatory, but many

1103
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: people don't realize that psychedelics also are really potent anti

1104
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: inflammatory medicines. And you're going to be hearing more about

1105
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 1: this and it will help to keep you young and healthy.

1106
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: You mean, so I should be supplementing my tumeric black

1107
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: pepper anti inflammatory with more of this stuff, huh like

1108
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: micro docing. Well, Paul Stammet's would tell you that, yes,

1109
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: you you should. You should be having mushrooms and other

1110
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: mushrooms and be vitamins. Oh my god. I look forward

1111
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: to having Paul on the show. I mean I just

1112
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: watched that documentary Fantastic Fun Guy. That is fantastic thing.

1113
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: I probably know most of the people interviewed in it.

1114
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 1: But Paul will be a great guest and we eventually

1115
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: have him. I mean, he is really the guru of mushrooms.

1116
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely too well, Julie listen, thanks ever so much for

1117
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: joining me on this in our car talk on drugs

1118
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: without driving. But I hope we do this again. This

1119
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: was really good, really fun, and uh you know, let's

1120
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: let's see if we get some more questions in the

1121
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: future and we'll come back at this. I would love that.

1122
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: That would be great. Count me in. In the meantime,

1123
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: I would love for you to reach out to me

1124
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter and over voicemail. The number we've set up

1125
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: is eight three three seven seven nine two four six,

1126
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: So I want to know what you find interesting and

1127
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: what you disagree with. I want to hear your suggestions

1128
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: for topics and guests, and I want to hear your experiences.

1129
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: Please leave us a message at eight three three seven

1130
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three Psycho Zero

1131
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: and if you couldn't keep track of all this, find

1132
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: the information in the show notes. Psychoactive is a production

1133
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by

1134
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Kacha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick.

1135
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

1136
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt

1137
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: Frederick for I Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our

1138
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blusian and a special thanks to

1139
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: Aviv Brio, SF Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. My next

1140
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: conversation will be with Professor Elias Dokuar, a research or

1141
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: at Columbia University doing fascinating work in using ketamine and

1142
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: meditation to treat drug addiction, reading about you know your

1143
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: research on dealing with people struggling with alcohol, cocaine, cannabis,

1144
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: and basically using ketamine as a way to get people

1145
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: to move into meditation correct by approximating the meditative experience,

1146
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: by making it easier to practice, and also by motivating people.

1147
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: Demoralization is I think a big part of addiction. So

1148
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: I also hope that the medicine would disrupt that, that

1149
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: it would provide a sense of refresh possibility. Subscribe to Cycleactive.

1150
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: Now see it, an'll miss it.