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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: Everyone welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today's guest played a

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Speaker 1: crucial role in putting the Golden State Killer in prison

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Speaker 1: for life.

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Speaker 3: But before we talk with.

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Speaker 1: Our guests, we're going to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer. For those of you who are

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Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the story.

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Speaker 4: Let me tell you this episode is such an honor

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Speaker 4: for me in particular because this is one of my

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Speaker 4: favorite true crime cases that got me really interested in

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Speaker 4: covering DNA and genetic genealogy, so I do a lot

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Speaker 4: of that on the Grossroom. But this story has really

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Speaker 4: interesting facts behind it. So for those of you unfamiliar

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Speaker 4: with this case, from nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 4: there was this reign of terror throughout California. So the

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Speaker 4: crime started in nineteen seventy four with over one hundred

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Speaker 4: and twenty known burglaries in Visalia, California, so that's just

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Speaker 4: north of LA and it eventually migrated to Sacramento and

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Speaker 4: eventually Orange County, where over fifty women and girls were

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Speaker 4: raped and thirteen people were brutally murdered. So what makes

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Speaker 4: this case so interesting is that throughout the years they

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Speaker 4: thought this perpetrator was different people in all these different areas,

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Speaker 4: and they eventually connected them to one. So first it

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Speaker 4: started with the burglaries in Visalia, so that started in

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Speaker 4: seventy four. They refer to that perpetrator as the Visalia Ransacker.

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Speaker 4: Then when the sexual assault started in Sacramento, that suspect

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Speaker 4: was known as the East Area Rapists, and then the

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Speaker 4: killings were attributed to the nickname the Original Nightstalker. Because

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Speaker 4: this was before Richard Ramirez's time as her YouTube live.

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Speaker 4: People know we've talked about him in the past, but.

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Speaker 3: These are different people.

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Speaker 4: So by their early two thousands, there's advancements in DNA

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Speaker 4: and detective pall Holes. Anybody that's familiar with crime Coon

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Speaker 4: will be very familiar.

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Speaker 3: With Paul Holes.

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Speaker 4: He figures out that the easter Aia Rapist and Original

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Speaker 4: Night Sotalcer are the same guy after comparing very early

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Speaker 4: DNA samples, and so at that point they're referring to

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Speaker 4: the killer as Euron's which was Easteria rapist, Original Night Sotalcer.

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Speaker 4: So then at some point they figure out that he

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Speaker 4: has the same MO as the Vicealia Ransacker all the

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Speaker 4: way over there, so they're kind of like, what the

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Speaker 4: hell we thought this was different people this entire time,

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Speaker 4: and now we have these three people connected together. So

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Speaker 4: fast forward a couple of years. Patton Oswald's wife, Michelle McNamara,

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Speaker 4: is writing about the case and she coins the term

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Speaker 4: Golden State Killer, so that kind of encapsulates everything going

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Speaker 4: on in California. And you have to remember these crimes

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Speaker 4: were going on between seventy four and eighty six, and

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Speaker 4: by the time Michelle McNamara was writing her book, it's

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen. So all this time they don't know who

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Speaker 4: this killer is, what was her.

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Speaker 1: What was her background that caused her? Is she just

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Speaker 1: a reporter? She was just interested in the case, like

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Speaker 1: what got her to reopen this case?

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Speaker 4: Kind of so she had a true crime blog. It

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Speaker 4: was kind of like one of the first things ever

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Speaker 4: liked that that was huge, And then I guess, living

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Speaker 4: in California, you just have this arguably one of the

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Speaker 4: most horrific serial killers of our time, doing these terrible things,

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Speaker 4: which we'll get into in the episode, and how nobody

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Speaker 4: has caught him.

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Speaker 3: So she started and that's so scary.

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Speaker 4: It is so scary, and they, you know, for all

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Speaker 4: these years, are like, is this guy dead? Is he

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Speaker 4: still living amongst us?

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Speaker 3: What is going on?

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Speaker 4: Why did nobody ever catch him? He had really weird mos.

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Speaker 4: He was doing very bizarre things, like at some of

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Speaker 4: the scenes, he would put a towel over the TVs

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Speaker 4: and the computers, or not the computers that was because

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Speaker 4: that wasn't around you, but he would put towels over

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Speaker 4: the televisions while he's actually assaulted these women. He would

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Speaker 4: break into their houses and act like he lived there,

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Speaker 4: make himself a meal. He would slide in the door,

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Speaker 4: hide in somebody's closet for hours before letting himself so scary, yes,

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Speaker 4: before they knew he was even there. He would call

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Speaker 4: the victims years after the assaults and torture them. It's terrifying.

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Speaker 1: So the last crime that this Golden State killer committed.

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Speaker 4: Was what year eighty six? Well, these are known crimes, remember,

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Speaker 4: so he might have committed even more that they don't

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Speaker 4: even know where connected to him, but they believe his

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Speaker 4: reign of terror was seventy four to eighty six.

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Speaker 1: It's just really crazy too, that someone could be that

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Speaker 1: out of their mind and violent for such a long

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Speaker 1: period of time and then all of a sudden stop

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Speaker 1: for years were seemingly that we know about stop and

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Speaker 1: not do anything else for such a long time.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to give too many spoilers away, but

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Speaker 4: this person was captured in twenty eighteen using genetic genealogy.

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Speaker 4: This man was in his early seventies and had committed

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Speaker 4: all these crimes. So this was kind of the beginning

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Speaker 4: of using genetic genealogy to solve cold cases. And it

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Speaker 4: was huge in California because this guy terrorized the communities.

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Speaker 4: I mean, in this book, the author goes over how

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Speaker 4: all these communities people weren't locking their doors, and after

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Speaker 4: the crime started going on, these people were families were

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Speaker 4: sleeping in one bedroom and terrified because they just didn't

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Speaker 4: know what was to come.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's just the scariest kind of crime ever.

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Speaker 1: And we've talked about this, which I'm going to bring

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Speaker 1: up with him in this interview as well, about we

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Speaker 1: wrote the inspiration for the movie Scream last week and

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the Gainesville Ripper and just with

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Speaker 1: something like that is going on in your neighborhood or

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Speaker 1: what did we talk about the DC Sniper for example

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Speaker 1: a little bit closer to us, like when things like

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Speaker 1: that are happening and you have to live and do

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Speaker 1: life every day and go to sleep at night at

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Speaker 1: your house, but you know that this person is on

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Speaker 1: the loose that wants to kill more people. There's a

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Speaker 1: huge possibility that you could be next. So I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine how terrifying that is for people.

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Speaker 4: No, And I think what I want to discuss too

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Speaker 4: in this interview is that you know, this book was

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Speaker 4: written largely from the perspective of the victims, which I

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Speaker 4: appreciated having read so many true crime books, because you're

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Speaker 4: not really giving the killer, you know, the fame they're

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Speaker 4: desiring in some regard. But also we don't remember often

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Speaker 4: that these cases are affecting real people, and by telling

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Speaker 4: the story through their perspective of how the crime occurred,

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Speaker 4: what was going on in their lives, and how it

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Speaker 4: affected them for decades later, it was so impactful.

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Speaker 1: All Right, So let's talk a little bit about the author.

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Speaker 1: His name is Tien Howe, and he has prosecuted hundreds

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Speaker 1: of high profile sexual assault, gang and homicide cases over

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Speaker 1: the twenty five year course of his legal career. He's

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Speaker 1: best known for successfully prosecuting Joseph DiAngelo, who is known

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Speaker 1: as the Golden State Killer. As Maria said, Tin has

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Speaker 1: an interesting background. He came to the United States from

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Speaker 1: Vietnam as a refugee as a child. He didn't even

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Speaker 1: know how to speak English, and he rose all the

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Speaker 1: way from being an intern to elected Disacramento County District Attorney,

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Speaker 1: where he currently is serving office today. He now has

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Speaker 1: a book called The People Versus the Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 1: which is going to be released next Tuesday. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to get to talk to Tin in a second.

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Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by the Grossroom Guys.

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Speaker 1: Our yearly sal is over right now, but you could

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Speaker 1: a month, so if you are not a current member,

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Speaker 1: thousands of post videos, art goals, and more. This week

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Speaker 1: we did our so every week we do either a

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Speaker 1: high profile death dissection, which is on cases that were

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Speaker 1: not famous until usually crimes or even medical things have

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Speaker 1: happened that have made people famous, or we do celebrity

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Speaker 1: death dissections. So last week we did one on the

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Speaker 1: movie Scream. As we had mentioned, earlier, and that one

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Speaker 1: was really interesting because we talk about the real life

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Speaker 1: serial killer case that inspired that movie. This week, we

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Speaker 1: are working on Lindsey Clancy, who, if you recall a

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Speaker 1: few years ago, she was the mother who strangled her

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Speaker 1: three children and then tried to kill herself by jumping

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Speaker 1: out of a window. She survived and is now a paraplegic,

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Speaker 1: and we get into all of the details of that

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Speaker 1: case and what may have motivated her to do something

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Speaker 1: like that. We also have a couple interesting cases in

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Speaker 1: the gross Room this week, showing a video that was

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Speaker 1: going viral on the internet and talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: all the comments that I see underneath the videos are

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Speaker 1: like what the Hell's going on? And all these people

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Speaker 1: tagging me in it. So I posted it in the

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Speaker 1: Grossroom and explain what I believe is happening in that video.

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Speaker 1: All that and more in the Grossroom.

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Speaker 4: Head over to the grossroom dot com now to sign up.

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Speaker 1: Hi ten, Welcome the Mother Knows Death.

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Speaker 2: Hi. How you doing. It's truly an honor to be

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Speaker 2: on your show, And as I've said, love the title

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Speaker 2: of the podcast, mother Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Before we get started, I just want to say this

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Speaker 4: is one of the best true crime books I've ever read.

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Speaker 4: I did it all in one take. I could not

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Speaker 4: get enough of it. I think you did such an

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Speaker 4: amazing job hopping between the timelines of when the crimes

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Speaker 4: occurred versus what was going on in your world in

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Speaker 4: modern day. And the bonus for me is as a layperson,

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Speaker 4: you laid everything out very simply so I could understand

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Speaker 4: everything between the DNA what you guys did in the

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Speaker 4: process Suter's Office. I can't I appreciate it so much.

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Speaker 4: I can't thank you for the way you laid it out.

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Speaker 2: That means a lot to me on it, and that

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Speaker 2: is one of the challenges really of writing a book

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Speaker 2: where you're jumping back and forth in time because the

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Speaker 2: scope was so big and trying to figure that out.

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Speaker 4: No, definitely, So I guess let's get started with you know,

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Speaker 4: you talk about in the book when you first learned

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Speaker 4: about the Golden State Killer, and then you kind of

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Speaker 4: talk about in the office what went down when you

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Speaker 4: guys discovered the DNA match.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that time a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Most definitely.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been a prosecutor for twenty five years,

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Speaker 2: I've been a lawyer for almost twenty eight, and this

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Speaker 2: was back in originally in twenty twelve. In twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: I tried my very first homicide case and it involved

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Speaker 2: Rajni Singh. Her half naked body was found behind a

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Speaker 2: brick wall in Rancho Cordova, not far from where the

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Speaker 2: East era rapist had committed his crimes. And so I

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Speaker 2: was just going out to the crime scene, getting ready

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Speaker 2: for trial and kind of seeing where everything was placed.

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Speaker 2: And I happened to be in the car with my buddy,

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Speaker 2: who was another homicide prosecutor, Billy who he grew up

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Speaker 2: in Rancho Cordova, and then the sergeant of the homicide team,

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Speaker 2: Jim Barnes, and so we were driving out there and

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Speaker 2: I just happened to look out and I noticed, like

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Speaker 2: all the businesses, all the homes, the apartments, everything had

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Speaker 2: metal bars on both the doors and the windows. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've never seen so many metal bars before.

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Speaker 2: And then they commented that it was because of the ear,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, the ear, Who's the ear? And

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Speaker 2: that's when Billy, who grew up in Rancho Krdova, said

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Speaker 2: the ear and he almost like whispered it. It's the

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Speaker 2: East area rapist. He was the boogeyman of my childhood.

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Speaker 2: And so they were talking about how, you know, the

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Speaker 2: rampage of East Area rapists who then morphed into the

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Speaker 2: original night Stark and the Golden State Killer, and they

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Speaker 2: thought he was dead and said, well, if they were

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Speaker 2: find if you guys ever find them, that's the one

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Speaker 2: case I would want to prosecute and have and then

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Speaker 2: boom fast forward six years later was when they arrested them.

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Speaker 2: But before they did, there was a whole scene that

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Speaker 2: played out in the office about how I found out

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Speaker 2: about it, and so you know, the way I found

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Speaker 2: out about it was I saw the supervisor of the

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Speaker 2: team and then our number two, the supervisor of the

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Speaker 2: homicide team, in there whispering to each other in hush tones,

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Speaker 2: and then they're running around and there was something going on.

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Speaker 2: And they went to their office, which is right next

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Speaker 2: door to mine, and they closed the door, and I'm

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Speaker 2: in a government building that's been about fifty years old.

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Speaker 2: The wall is real thin, it probably blow on it,

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Speaker 2: it'd probably fall over. So there was and I just

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Speaker 2: remember I was, you know, I put my ear up

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Speaker 2: against the wall kind of eavesdrop, you know, like you

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Speaker 2: do as kids. And I remember hearing the word one

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Speaker 2: sixteen septillion match to the EAAR.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And that's the DNA match and that's in Sacramento.

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Speaker 2: The ar means one thing and one thing only, the

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Speaker 2: East Area rapist. I nearly fell out of my chair

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Speaker 2: and that's when I realized they found them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in your office made the press conference on National

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Speaker 4: DNA Day, which is pretty incredible that it could link.

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Speaker 3: Up like that.

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Speaker 2: Most definitely. I mean, you know, it's interesting sometimes in

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Speaker 2: universe and the stars they just all lined up together,

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Speaker 2: and that was the day it lined up because it

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Speaker 2: was DNA that solved the case.

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Speaker 4: Had you ever heard of the case before this that

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Speaker 4: used genetic genealogy to link semen from a scene to

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Speaker 4: a killer.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: This was the very first case in which forensic evidence

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Speaker 2: from the crime scene was used through genetic genealogy to

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Speaker 2: solve the case, and since then there's been a thousand

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Speaker 2: cases around the world world that have used this technology

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Speaker 2: to solve code cases. Are you familiar with with sort

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Speaker 2: of how how genetic genealogy works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I thought you explained it really well in

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Speaker 4: the book too. So they get the they extract the

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Speaker 4: DNA sample, and then you basically can ping from a

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Speaker 4: public database a family member, and then you have this

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Speaker 4: really tenuous job of building this family tree and then

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Speaker 4: getting back to the generation that you believe the matches from,

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Speaker 4: and then narrowing it down based on circumstantial evidence to

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Speaker 4: where that person lives, what they looked like based from

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Speaker 4: the victim's accounts. It is really amazing work.

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Speaker 2: All right, you sound like a lawyer. You sounded like

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Speaker 2: a prospect trial. Where that's exactly how it was. But

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of drama behind the scenes, which

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Speaker 2: I covered in the book about how we got that

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Speaker 2: DNA sample. Because what happens is you need really good

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Speaker 2: amount of DNA where we send it over to a

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Speaker 2: LAP to convert it into what we call SNIP profile

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Speaker 2: that's single nucleotype polymorphism. So that type of profile is

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Speaker 2: used by the genealogy databases and it measures a million

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Speaker 2: different areas in your chromosome versus a million different areas

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Speaker 2: on somebody else's chromosome. The more places you have in

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Speaker 2: common with somebody, the more closely related. We didn't have

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Speaker 2: any DNA in Sacramento because unfortunately we threw ours away

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Speaker 2: contra Costa used it. All Orange County had the DNA,

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Speaker 2: but they wouldn't give it to us, and so we

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Speaker 2: had to go somewhere else to get the DNA. And

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Speaker 2: I talk about that in the book.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too, because you

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Speaker 4: had discussed how you face challenges with the Orange County

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Speaker 4: office not handing it over and really assisting you guys

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Speaker 4: when you know. Detective Paul Hols was like, I think

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Speaker 4: I could figure this out, but I need this sample.

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Speaker 4: Do you find that police departments and other DA's offices

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Speaker 4: are often not working together or is this just in

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Speaker 4: certain high profile cases where they want to try to

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Speaker 4: figure it out themselves and take credit for it.

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Speaker 2: What I would tell you is this a couple of

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Speaker 2: different things. I think that all law enforcement, all DA's officers,

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Speaker 2: we want to solve crime. We want to be able

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Speaker 2: to bring justice to victims. Now there will be disagreements

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Speaker 2: on the best way to do it, and in the

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Speaker 2: process there's going to be ego and politics that get

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Speaker 2: involved as well. When we prosecuted the case, I worked

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Speaker 2: with the line deputies at the Orange County DA's office,

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Speaker 2: some of the best das that I've ever worked with.

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Speaker 2: In my life now at the very top. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of politics involved, right, and so they wouldn't give

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Speaker 2: us the DNA. They wouldn't give Paul Hose the DNA

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Speaker 2: from their case, and there was plenty of DNA. Part

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Speaker 2: of it, I think, is you know, part of this

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Speaker 2: thing where they wanted to solve it. They thought their

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Speaker 2: ideas were the best way to do it, and they

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Speaker 2: didn't want to hand it over. And so we had

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Speaker 2: to go to Ventura DIA's office to get their DNA

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Speaker 2: and get their agreement. Because in the murder of Lyman

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Speaker 2: and Charlene Smith, the corner in that case in Ventura,

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Speaker 2: doctor Speth, he had a unique and peculiar practice, which

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Speaker 2: was he always collected two different rate kits from the victims.

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Speaker 2: Most corners and pathologists collect only one, but he did two.

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Speaker 2: And he was brilliant in his foresight. Because what happens

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Speaker 2: is when you collect one sample, that sample goes to

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Speaker 2: the crame lab. The crime lab will retest items after

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Speaker 2: items after items, and so because of that, they're gone

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Speaker 2: and they're stored in different areas. So the corner's office

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Speaker 2: took a second sample and kept it pristine in their

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Speaker 2: freezer for forty plus years, and a detective on another

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Speaker 2: case happened to be searching around at the corner's office

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Speaker 2: and lo and behold found that second rate kit from

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Speaker 2: Charlene Smith and that's what helped break the case open.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing, Mom.

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Speaker 4: Did you see that at your time at the medical

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Speaker 4: examiner's office where they're keeping samples like that for decades?

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Speaker 1: No, And I think that the vision of that guy

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Speaker 1: is remarkable that he thought ahead like that that and

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Speaker 1: it makes total sense. I mean, working in this field,

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Speaker 1: things get lost. I mean, it's just so important that

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Speaker 1: you can't ever recollect it, so you have to you

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Speaker 1: have to have it. And it's really awesome to hear

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Speaker 1: that that guy, even before he really knew if anything

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Speaker 1: could be done with it, was thinking about that.

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Speaker 2: Spoken like the true medical examiner it. I mean, doctor

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Speaker 2: Speth was ahead of his time.

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Speaker 4: Do you think during the seventies in the early eighties

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Speaker 4: when this was all going down to that GSK could

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Speaker 4: have possibly been caught if the police departments and you're

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Speaker 4: said in the book, he committed crimes over eleven different jurisdictions,

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Speaker 4: so is it possible they might have caught him quicker

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Speaker 4: if police departments were more willing to communicate with each

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Speaker 4: other at that time.

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Speaker 2: I think we would have had a better chance to

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Speaker 2: catch him. You know, back then, law enforcement they were siloed,

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Speaker 2: you know, in different departments. Northern California wasn't sharing information

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Speaker 2: with Southern California. Southern California wasn't sharing information with other

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Speaker 2: Southern California jurisdictions. Now everything's online, Now everything is connected together.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that he could have committed the crimes

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Speaker 2: to the degree that he committed and the scope in

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Speaker 2: this day and age without getting caught. We have forensic evidence,

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Speaker 2: we have cell phone evidence. I mean, everybody has a

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Speaker 2: ring camera, everybody has a surveillance camera, we have license

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Speaker 2: plate readers. So I think it's very difficult this age

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Speaker 2: to have to commit the scope of the crimes that

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Speaker 2: he did back then. And I think that did contribute

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Speaker 2: to the fact that he he wasn't caught for so long.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing was, let's not forget he was

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Speaker 2: a police officer. He was a police officer who knew

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Speaker 2: the techniques and the investigative you know, protocols of law enforcements.

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Speaker 2: I talked about in the book. The very first series

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Speaker 2: was the Visalia Ransacker was the Ransacker was committing one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty burglaries in a three miles square Radi's

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Speaker 2: in Bisalia and the central part of California, breaking into

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Speaker 2: home sometimes as much as wore five six times a night.

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Speaker 2: And it turned out that Joseph DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 2: the East Era rapist, the original night so Soccer, was

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Speaker 2: also the Visalia Ransacker, but he was a police officer

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Speaker 2: in nearby town. He helped out on the task force

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Speaker 2: to find the Ransacker, and he was in fact the Ransacker.

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Speaker 3: It is so bizarre.

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Speaker 4: Remember when we cover Jeffrey Dahmer that he had gone

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Speaker 4: to the memorial for some of his victims. It is

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Speaker 4: very bizarre that they like to watch their work with

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Speaker 4: seeing these people being in distress, but knowing you're the

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Speaker 4: person committing them.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking with Brian Coberger too, for example, like

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Speaker 1: he was in school to be a criminal justice major.

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Speaker 1: It's it's almost you have to wonder if these people

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Speaker 1: are purposely trying to get into these professions so they

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Speaker 1: could try to get away with crimes.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a great point. I think there's an

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Speaker 2: element of that where they want to learn the techniques

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Speaker 2: and be able to utilize those techniques to commit their

392
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Speaker 2: crimes into evade capture. I mean when you were looking

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Speaker 2: at you know, the even the TV show what was

394
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Speaker 2: that Dexter? Right, you know, and other different like that.

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Speaker 2: And I think it gave him an advantage. It gave

396
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Speaker 2: DiAngelo an advantage to escape capture and to commit his crimes.

397
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Speaker 2: It gave them access to a database. But I think

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Speaker 2: the other thing is when you get into the psychology

399
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Speaker 2: of somebody like Joseph DeAngelo, right, is if he was

400
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Speaker 2: above the law and beyond the law, that the law

401
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 2: didn't apply to him, and when he became a police

402
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: officer it was an extension in his mind. I enforced

403
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Speaker 2: the law, but the law doesn't apply to me, and

404
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: it's that for him. For him in particular, it wasn't

405
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Speaker 2: to serve the community. It was to serve his sick depravity.

406
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Speaker 4: It is interesting that he had no foresight about leaving

407
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Speaker 4: his seamen at this scene, because obviously that ended up

408
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Speaker 4: catching him so many years later. But there was just

409
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Speaker 4: so many circumstantial piece of evidence that were so disturbing,

410
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Speaker 4: Like you had discussed in your book that he had

411
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Speaker 4: left doctor Pepper at many of the scenes, and then

412
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Speaker 4: when he was arrested, you found all this doctor Pepper

413
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Speaker 4: in his home. And I remember Paul Holes had discussed

414
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Speaker 4: that he had covered the TVs up with towels, and

415
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Speaker 4: how eerie it was when they went in the home

416
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 4: and saw tows covering his devices too, and just little

417
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Speaker 4: things like that that are so niche that could not

418
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Speaker 4: possibly be connected to another person.

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Speaker 2: And I think with the towel, so in some of

420
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Speaker 2: the sexual assault he turned on the TV or he

421
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 2: turned on the lamp, he put a towel to create

422
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: this warm glow as he committed his crimes. And Paul

423
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: was right when we did the search warrant to get

424
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: into his house, he put a towel over his monitor,

425
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Speaker 2: his TV mark, his computer monitor. But the other thing

426
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Speaker 2: that people don't know or realize is when he was

427
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,239
Speaker 2: in his jail cell, he would cover the fluorescent light

428
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Speaker 2: with a towel to create that glow. So it was

429
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Speaker 2: almost as if he was reliving his crimes. It was

430
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Speaker 2: almost as if he was continuing to do it. And

431
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Speaker 2: when you talk about the PTK killer, right, he said

432
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Speaker 2: that while there was a certain point where he did

433
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: stop committing his crimes because he physically couldn't do anymore,

434
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: he was still replaying and committing crimes in his head.

435
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: He was looking at a victim and thinking, how am

436
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Speaker 2: I going to kidnaps or how am I going to torture?

437
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: How am I going to kill her? He was still

438
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: replaying and thinking about in his mind of committing the crime.

439
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: In the same way, Joseph D'Angelo, at the age of

440
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: seventy three, was in his jail cell and there's a

441
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: I have it on video where he was looking out

442
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: his cell and there was a young blonde female that

443
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: was working the pod area delivering food to the different inmates,

444
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: and he's looking at her and you can tell that

445
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: he was masturbating to her. So even at the age

446
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 2: of seventy three, the sexual depravity had not yet left him.

447
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 4: That's interesting. So I want to shift some more to

448
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 4: the pathology component of this. So a lot of the

449
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 4: victims had described that he had an unusually small penis,

450
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 4: and then after his arrest, you guys took photos of that.

451
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 4: Did you kind of just have that feeling like this

452
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 4: is definitely the guy after seeing something.

453
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 2: Like that, definitely. So the interesting thing is, you know,

454
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: in the Orange County crimes, in the Ventura crime is,

455
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 2: three of the Contra Costa, and one of the Santa Barbara.

456
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: We had evidence connecting him, but in none of the Sacramento,

457
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: in many of the other crimes in Northern California, and

458
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: in the murder of double Manning and uh, you know

459
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 2: in Santa Barbara, there was no d and evidence in

460
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: that case, you know, doctor Offerman and doctor Manning, there

461
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 2: was no DNA. So we had to prove those cases

462
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 2: by modus operandi. And since many of the victims in

463
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: Northern California described his penis as being abnormally small, we

464
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: wanted to verify that piece of evidence to establish that

465
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence. And it was, in fact extremely it was.

466
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: It was a micro penis, as some people have described it.

467
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: And so when you're talking about the pathology of it,

468
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, he witnessed his own sister, who was eight

469
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: years old that he was a few years older, being

470
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: raped on a military base when he was a young boy,

471
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: and he was tied up, and he felt very helpless

472
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: from that. He was beaten by his parents, and so

473
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: when you look at the pathology of it, he felt

474
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: very powerless, both physically mentally and emotionally in his own life,

475
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: and so he needed to regain some of that control.

476
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: Now he doesn't justify it in any way whatsoever, but

477
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: we tried to understand the monster behind the masks and

478
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: the pathology of it. And so he was a hunter

479
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: of people instead of animals. And when he was in

480
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: people's homes, he wanted to play god over them. He

481
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: draped towels over them, stack of perfume bottles on them,

482
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 2: He threatened them, he sexually assaulted them, he ate their food,

483
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 2: he drank their beer. He played God over their lives,

484
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: and it gave him back that sense of control that

485
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: he probably didn't feel in any aspect of his life.

486
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: And that's how the monster was creating.

487
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: The micro penis is very interesting to me because although

488
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: it can just occur and they don't really know why,

489
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: a lot of times it's often associated with an underlying

490
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: genetic disorder or a hormonal disorder, particularly a lack of

491
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: testosterone in infancy, which they would usually treat with to

492
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: try to to make it grow a little bit larger,

493
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 1: and it's better treated as a child. And I'm not

494
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: sure if that's anything that they would have done when

495
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: he was a younger person. But it's just interesting that

496
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: that may play a role in it, as well as

497
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: far as hormone levels of him growing up and different

498
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: things like that.

499
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: You know, when I look at that, we had to

500
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 2: recreate his life, you know, from the moment we found him.

501
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: You know, I recreated every step of his life, from

502
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: when he was born in Bath, New York, all the

503
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: way to when he was rested even afterwards, and the

504
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: way I look at it, we saw the death penalty

505
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: at one point in the case. You know, it's always

506
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: interesting to understand what created a monster, but at the

507
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: end of the day, I still have a monster sitting

508
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: in front of me, and I needed to hold him

509
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: accountable for what he did because many people have been

510
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: victims and have felt trauma in their lives, and yet

511
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: they don't turn into the monster. He became an inflicted

512
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: trauma on other people. But you know, the stuff you

513
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: mentioned is really interesting there.

514
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 4: I did think after reading that part of the book

515
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 4: about his childhood and what he had witnessed with his sister,

516
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 4: that it kind of, you know, it added up to

517
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 4: what was going on. Because I've been covering this case

518
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: or reading about this case since you guys arrested him

519
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, and his MO was so specific, you know,

520
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 4: putting plates on people's backs so they couldn't move, covering

521
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 4: up the televisions, going through their homes and eating their food,

522
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: calling them, harassing them after. It's just very specific, and

523
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: I feel like with all the cases we cover, I

524
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: haven't heard anything so meticulous and well thought out. And

525
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 4: after hearing that, I'm like, Okay, this kind of really

526
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 4: is adding up to why he's doing this ritual because

527
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: he's in a way recreating the scene he witnessed, but

528
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 4: like you're saying, trying to take control of it this time,

529
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: but in the worst possible way.

530
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's really interesting perspective that you just laid

531
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: out there. So you watched this or you know, follow

532
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: this from the beginning. Were you familiar with it before

533
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: we caught him? You know? With Michelle McNamara's book.

534
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: I really wasn't so when I first started. When after

535
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 4: he was arrested, I saw that a case was solved

536
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: with genetic genealogy. I've always been very fascinated with DNA,

537
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 4: and then I started reading about it and it just

538
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 4: completely blew my mind to become one of my favorite

539
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: cases ever.

540
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: So I have to ask you guys a question in

541
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: terms of reading the book, and so there are things

542
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: that were in the media, things that were covered before.

543
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: You know, Michelle McNamara obviously wrote her book, Paul Hols

544
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: wrote his book about the investigation, but my book covered

545
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: the investigation, the capture, and the prosecution of it. You know,

546
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: was there something in my book that kind of caught

547
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: your attension, that kind of just fascinated you that perhaps

548
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: you didn't know before, just out of you know, for

549
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: my own curiosity.

550
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely.

551
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 4: When it came down to his whole background, I feel

552
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: like I didn't know anything about how he grew up.

553
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 4: All I knew was he had a military background and

554
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: he was a police officer. He was divorced and that

555
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 4: will not officially divorced, separated, but had daughters. So that's

556
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 4: kind of all I knew about his background. So I

557
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: feel like the way you laid it out, and then

558
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: when you detailed what happened with the sister, it started

559
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: a lot of things started adding back up to me. Also,

560
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 4: that you guys had searched the house looking for the trinkets.

561
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: I had no idea that happened, and you gave such

562
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: a great perspective from the victims that I feel is

563
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 4: so rare in true crime books.

564
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my favorite part of it too, because

565
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: last week we actually were looking at because it was Halloween,

566
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: we were looking at the movie score and we were

567
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: saying that it was inspired by the Gainesville Ripper. And

568
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: we had a lot of questions after writing that that

569
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: that movie was released only six years after the murder,

570
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: and then you find out that Brian Coberger may have

571
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: been inspired by the Gainesville Ripper and stuff. And sometimes

572
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: there's so much of a focus on the actual murders

573
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: that you're wondering if it is inspiring other people instead

574
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: of thinking about how these victims' families feel with a

575
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: movie coming out about the deaths of their loved ones,

576
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: sensationalized only six years after they were murdered.

577
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: I think what you both said was extremely eloquent and relevant.

578
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: You know, one of my inspiration for writing the book,

579
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: and I wrote it five years after the case ended,

580
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: was really to give a voice to victims. You know what.

581
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: I was first assigned the case, the first thing I

582
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: did was I went on Amazon and bot Michelle mcnamir's

583
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: book because I just wanted a whole kind of view

584
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: of the case. And when I read it, I couldn't sleep.

585
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: And Michelle wrote her book and then she passed away

586
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: before we found him, so she was you know, focused

587
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: on him and focused on the crime and trying to

588
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: find him. And then Paul wrote his book in terms

589
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: of how he used a came up with an idea technology,

590
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: forensic technology to solve the case, you know, an I view.

591
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: My book is the third in the trilogy, right, you know,

592
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: the the end that covers everything. But I really wanted

593
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: to give voice to and honor the generations of law

594
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: enforcement that never gave up their search for him. But

595
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: in addition, I wanted to make sure that the victims

596
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: that their voice came through, that they did. I show

597
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: how they turned pain into power, and they really drove

598
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: what happened on the end of the at the end

599
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: of the case, and that stuff, frankly was never really

600
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: talked about publicly, and so I wanted to make sure

601
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: I did that to honor them. And a part of

602
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 2: my proceeds from the book, it goes to honor you know,

603
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: a nonprofit, Phillis's Garden, that was started by several of

604
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: the survivors.

605
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: No, that's absolutely incredible, and I thought, you know, the

606
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 4: detailing of the crimes itself and how it affected each

607
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: victim individually, and then you having to deal with them

608
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 4: decades later and having to tell them, you know, we

609
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 4: caught this guy. We're potentially seeking the death penalty. Never mind,

610
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 4: there's a plea deal. Nobody really talks about how emotional

611
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: that could be over the years, and some of these

612
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 4: people weren't even able to see justice. This happened forty

613
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 4: years ago. Some people passed away, you know. So to

614
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 4: see you guys handle this case with such care and

615
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 4: be able to let them go up there do their

616
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 4: victim impact statements and share their stories in such a

617
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 4: tasteful way was really great.

618
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: As a reader.

619
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: Thank you. That means a lot to me.

620
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: The victim impact statements.

621
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: I know that you said that that some of them

622
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on you. Can you describe some

623
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: of that for us.

624
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: Yes, And I'll talk about the two of them in particular.

625
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: The first was Phyllis so Phyllis is the first sexual

626
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: assault victim in Sacramento. And I remember the first time

627
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 2: I met Phyllis. She it was my first time in court,

628
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: and there is this lady that comes up to me

629
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: and she's in her early sixties, late fifties. It looks

630
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: like a gray hair. She's got these thick, round coke

631
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: bottled glasses. And she comes up and she reaches her

632
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: hand down. She shakes my hand and she says, HI,

633
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: my name is Phyllis. I'm victim number one. And we

634
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: sat down and we talked, and other victims came up. Hi,

635
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: I'm Chris, I'm victim number ten, right, But I sat

636
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: down in and talked with Phyllis, and I was kind

637
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: of just going over what was happening in the case.

638
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: But it was surreal for me because I had read

639
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: Phyllis's police report, I'd read her victim impact, you know,

640
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: her victim statement to law enforcement. I'd seen the pictures,

641
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: and I had this image of Phyllis, and now I

642
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 2: am forty something years later, and it was as if

643
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: I was reaching across time and space right the sweetest

644
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: person in the world. And every time I come to court,

645
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: Phyllis was sitting right there. But near the end of

646
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: the case, Phyllis told me that she was diagnosed with

647
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: cancer and she couldn't make it to court, and so

648
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: she couldn't make it to the date where we you know,

649
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: he accepted guilt. And so when we did the allocution

650
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: and went to the facts of Phyllis's case, she wasn't there,

651
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: but all the other victims stood up for her. Fast

652
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: forward two months later, we're going through the impact statement,

653
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: and I'm looking forward to seeing Phyllis and hearing her

654
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 2: and just you know, you know, coming over and sitting

655
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 2: with her. And she was going to come to read

656
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: her impact statement, but she was just so tired. She

657
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: was just so tired and worn out from the chemo

658
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: and everything else, and she couldn't make it. And her

659
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: sister came and read the impact statement about how it

660
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: affected or how she couldn't sleep alone anymore, how she

661
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: had to set up an alarm system and locked all

662
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: around her house, and her husband couldn't leave town for

663
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: very long. She became a prisoner or in her own home.

664
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 2: But what does that do to you over the years?

665
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: How does that eat away at you? Right? And then

666
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 2: I remember a couple of days later when DiAngelo was

667
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: going to get his sentence, and I look across the

668
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: makeshift court room and I see Phyllis sitting there and

669
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: she had this mask on. We're in the middle COVID.

670
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: She had this twinker on her eye, and for the

671
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: first time in forty years, she was able to obtain

672
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: a measure of justice. Three months later, Phillis passed away

673
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: from cancer, and so it meant the world to me

674
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: that we were able to get her that justice that

675
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: day in court, because if we kept moving forward, she

676
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: would have never seen that moment because she passed away.

677
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 2: And that's something that was staying with me forever. The

678
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: other person that really affected me in terms of their

679
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: impact statement was was Jane Carson. You know, Jane wrote

680
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: her own book, Frozen in Fear. She became a colonel

681
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: in the military. She was a nurse. He assaulted her,

682
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, with her her infant, you know, or Toddler's

683
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 2: son nearby. And Jane at the at the impact statement,

684
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: she brought Bonnie, and Bonnie was di'angelo's ex fiance and

685
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: it was a very dramatic moment in the courtrooms and

686
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: Jane went and here's Bonnie, you know, and and she

687
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: did it to try to get a reaction from DiAngelo.

688
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting no more than six feet away from DiAngelo.

689
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: He's got a mask on. He's sitting there looking straight ahead.

690
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: But when Bonnie's name was mentioned, I could tell that

691
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: his breathing stop for a moment. You could see him gulp,

692
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: and it became a rapid breathing. So it had an effect,

693
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: which is exactly what Jane wants. And Jane is such

694
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: a you know, a really powerful you know, advocate for victims.

695
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: And you know, I really, you know, really always think

696
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: highly of Jane. You know, I talked to her about

697
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: once a year. She was recently out doing true crime

698
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: stuff at Comic Con or Crime Con, and so she

699
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 2: goes every year, and we're talking about connecting as well.

700
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: That's amazing. That kind of reminds me of the Coburger

701
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 4: victim impact statement, you know, because when the when the consolve,

702
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 4: his family went up and started attacking his character, that's

703
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 4: when you could really see him getting mad. He doesn't

704
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 4: care that people are upset. He cares about people going

705
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 4: after him.

706
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: Yes.

707
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we were sitting there watching it live and

708
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 1: then the first couple ones. I mean, like, I understand

709
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: that victims want to cry and they want to say, oh,

710
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: my life has been a affected, but I just.

711
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 3: Don't think that these people care.

712
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: And I was saying to Maria, if that was me,

713
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: I would be studying that guy to see how I

714
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: could get under his skin, you know. And it sounds

715
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: like that's what happened in your case, and it happened

716
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: with the Brian Coburger case when the one victim's sister

717
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: went up and was just digging into him and you

718
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: could see him physically sitting there and being uncomfortable, and

719
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: that I guess that gives the victim's family some kind

720
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: of satisfaction that you could still bother a person that's

721
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: that sick.

722
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: Yep, they got to him, and that's what Jane was doing.

723
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: I mean, Jane's a just a source of power. And

724
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: I can see that, you know, that's exactly what you do.

725
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: That's what I would do. And Coburger, I mean the sister.

726
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 2: I mean that's great because you want to get to them,

727
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: You want to make him feel something, make him swarm.

728
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: Right, Oh totally.

729
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 4: And it was so bad ass that you made him

730
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 4: are that clear mask because he was essentially behind the

731
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 4: mask his whole life. He needs to now own up

732
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 4: to what he did. Does it matter that he's an

733
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 4: old man trying to fake being this people old man

734
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 4: when you guys know that's not the deal.

735
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you enjoyed that part. You know that

736
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: has never been made public. So you know, when he

737
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: committed his crimes, he wore a mask. And as we

738
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: were getting ready for the case to come to a

739
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: conclusion and we were in court. You know, it's in

740
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 2: the middle of COVID, Right, what do we wear in public? Right?

741
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,479
Speaker 2: A mask? But I didn't want him hide behind the mask.

742
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: So I had to go through a lot of machinations

743
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: and stuff, you know, in court with the judge to

744
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: make sure that he wore a clear face shield he

745
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: couldn't hide behind it. So if you go and you

746
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: look at that first court appears that's exactly what he has.

747
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: And so it's interesting, you know, putting the pieces. If

748
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: you read the book and then you go back and

749
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: watch some of the videos, it'll give you insight on

750
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: the stuff that was behind the scenes that people don't

751
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: really know about.

752
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 4: Oh definitely, So before this case, had you ever had

753
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: to work a case before with so many other DA offices,

754
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 4: because I can't imagine that was awesome for you guys

755
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 4: to have to deal with.

756
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: It's very rare. So typically in my office, you tried

757
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: the case by yourself. You got nobody else with you.

758
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: Other in the courtroom there could be two three defense attorneys,

759
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: you know, So alone I walk into that courtroom alone,

760
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 2: I sit there and a loan, you know, I try to,

761
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: you know, slay the monster before us. In rare situation,

762
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: we will assign two prosecutors to it. And it's very

763
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: rare that you have this many prosecutors. I mean, he

764
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: committed his crimes in eleven different counties and there were

765
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: six participating counties, and nearly every one of those counties

766
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: had somebody assigned to it. So, you know, attorneys, you know,

767
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: we're a type personalities, were aggressive by nature, We're drivers,

768
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: so you had to figure out how to deal with it.

769
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: Now among the line deputies. So the way we work is,

770
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: you know, you have your your you elected DA, you

771
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: have your executives, you have your supervisors, you have your

772
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: line deputies. The line deputies are the ones that are

773
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: in the trenches, on the front lines. And that's what

774
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: I was, you know, for most of that case. I'm

775
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: not anymore obviously, but at that time I was, and

776
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: we got along great among the line deputies. I mean,

777
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: because we were all moving in one direction. Some of

778
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: us would work on a mental defense, some of us

779
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 2: would work, you know, on the DNA stuff. Other ones

780
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: of us would you know, work in different areas of

781
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: it and strategize and do some research motion, and so

782
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: it was a collaborative experience from the line deputy above

783
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: that it was a bit more challenging, as I talked

784
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: about in the book.

785
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting. And you had one of our previous guests,

786
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: Matt Murphy on your team as well.

787
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 2: Yes, so, yeah, so Matt came on your show. What

788
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 2: was Matt talking about?

789
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 4: By the way, Matt came on when his book came

790
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 4: out last year, and he talked about, you know, all

791
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: the cases he had worked on. We got really into

792
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 4: Rodney Ill call of the Dating Game Killer and he's

793
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 4: been in the Awesome resource. We met him at Crime

794
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: Con the last two years and he's.

795
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: A great guy.

796
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Murph is a good dude. I mean I joked

797
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: around with him when he was on the case. He

798
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: was only on there for a short period of time

799
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: before he left the office. But you know, Murph, he

800
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: goes surfing. You know, he out there. You know, in

801
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: his wet suit out there, and he was a great prosecutor,

802
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: I mean, a good legit trial lord. He knows this

803
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: stuff and it was good to have him on the

804
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 2: case for the short time that we did, and jored

805
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: working with him. And so he's a good guy and

806
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: well verse in the criminal justice area.

807
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: What first got you interested in this field?

808
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: You know? So in the book, and it's interesting how

809
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: I set it up. So have you guys watched the

810
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: movie The Titanic? Yeah, yeah, of course the Titanic, right,

811
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: and the way I shut up the book and explain why.

812
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: You know, the Titanic has the the B and the

813
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: C story. So the A stories the search for the

814
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: Hope Diamond, the B stories the love story between Kate

815
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: and Leo, and the C story is the sinking of

816
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: the Titanic, right, And so in the book I set

817
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 2: up the A story is the investigation, capture, and prosecution

818
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: of GSK, the B stories my story, and the C

819
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: story is the story of the victims and the survivors.

820
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: In terms of my story, and I covered in the

821
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: book as the B story. I was born in Vietnam.

822
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: You know, my family left when we faced a dictatorship

823
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: in Vietnam and South South Vietnam fell, So we left

824
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: and escaped on a fishing boat, ran on a gas,

825
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: food and water. We were just drifting on the ocean,

826
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: near death until we were rescued. I spent six months

827
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: in a refugee camp in Malaysia. When I came to

828
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: this country, I couldn't understand a single word of English.

829
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: I joke around that I learned how to speak English

830
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: by watching Bucks Budding cartoons. Twenty years later, graduated from

831
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: law school. And when I when I graduated from law school,

832
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 2: I wanted to give back to this country. Gave my

833
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: family everything we could have ever imagined, and so I

834
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: became a public servant, you know, And there's no greater

835
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 2: public servant in my mind than a prosecutor who stands

836
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: up for victims and fights for victims. You know, in Vietnam,

837
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: there was no system of justice. There was no prosecutor,

838
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: no no jury, no you know, no defense attorney. There

839
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: was just you know, a dictator who made decisions about

840
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: people's lives. And so I became a prosecutor to really

841
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: give back to this country. And so in that process,

842
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a voice for victims. You know,

843
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: who is the voice for the child that was molested,

844
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: Who stands up for the undocumented mother that was beaten

845
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: by her boyfriend and is afraid to call the police.

846
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: Who stands there for the mother who lost a child

847
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: and a drive by shooting, you know, by a gang member.

848
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: It's the prosecutor. And so to me, that was just

849
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: a way of giving back to this country. And once

850
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: I got into it, I loved it. I love the

851
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 2: notion of service.

852
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: Do you ever get I mean, I guess you hear

853
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: the most hard stories of how people treat each other.

854
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: Is it anything that you ever take home with you

855
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: and affect your life outside of work?

856
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: You know? I wrote about it in the book about

857
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: the sin Eaters. Right in England. They had these people

858
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 2: that were sin eaters that they would pay and bring

859
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: to funerals. They eat a piece of bread and it

860
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 2: was not to absolve the individual of their sins, but

861
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 2: to take away some of that darkness so that the

862
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: person can then move on to the afterlife. And I

863
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: think first responders, whether you're a firefighter or police, a

864
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: prosecutor a medical examiner, we see people at their worst.

865
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: Right when somebody comes and sees me or comes into

866
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: my world. It's either because they are a victim of

867
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: a crime with the very fabric of their lives ripped apart,

868
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: or they're a defendant who's looking at life in prison.

869
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: Same thing with a medical examiner. You're seeing people at

870
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 2: the worst moment that their death, the aftermath, and all

871
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: the victim's family, and it's hard not to take that in.

872
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: It's hard not to be hardened by it, you know.

873
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 2: I remember, you know, when I was prosecuting sex crimes,

874
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: in particular child molestation crimes. I would, you know, look

875
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: at a you know, grandfather playing with his grandkids in

876
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: the pocket. I'd be thinking, is that guy a molester? Right?

877
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: My daughters when they were growing up, they never had

878
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: a sleepover never, you know. It's just that part of me, right,

879
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 2: Nothing good happens after midnight, you know, and so we

880
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: had a curfew, you know. And so it does affect

881
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: you at Jade, you I mean, I'm sure in your line,

882
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: I mean, did it do that to you for example?

883
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm you know, you pick certain things and

884
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: ignore other things just for some reason. I'm very terrified

885
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: of my kids getting i mean they're getting older now,

886
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: but getting hit by a car when they were younger,

887
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: just because you know, they just dart into the street

888
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: things like that. I would never let my husband ever

889
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: go on a motorcycle.

890
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 3: It's my only role in my.

891
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 4: Marriage, even though he's a fireman and goes in burning

892
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 4: bid bangs every day.

893
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: That's exactly why, though, because I say, Okay, you could

894
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: potentially die at work every day, you're not dying on

895
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: your day is off exactly. But do you do anything

896
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: else like that in your life besides not letting your

897
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: kids have sleepovers. Yeah.

898
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: So my son, he's a he's a teenager, he's in

899
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: high school. So I told him, you would never ride

900
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: a motorcycle in your life. And I told my girls,

901
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: you would never ride a motorcycle be on a motorcycle.

902
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: But I told the same Well, because I've seen the images.

903
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: I've seen the pictures. You know, my kids are. I

904
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: have two that are in college and one that's in

905
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 2: high school. But you know, I track them, I track

906
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: where they go, and nothing good ever happens after midnight.

907
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: But you know, there's only so much I can do

908
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: on it because we see the worst of people, So

909
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: it does, you know, And I had I have a

910
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: difficult time sleeping. I don't sleep very much. You know,

911
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 2: when you're when you're absorbing all this in. It's not

912
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: like a light switch that you can just turn on

913
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: and off. It stays on all the time. And it's

914
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: been years since, you know, the Golden State Killer was

915
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: the GSK was the last case that I that I

916
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: personally handled. If I'm going to handle the last case,

917
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: that's going to be the last case. But you know

918
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: the case is they still hot you. There are things

919
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: that will trigger you, but that's you know, we took

920
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: in a lot of darkness and sins.

921
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: Well.

922
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 4: I think on that note, you know, you did such

923
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 4: a good job speaking from from the victim's perspective and

924
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 4: giving that insight into how it affected their lives, what

925
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: was going on, how his crimes affected the whole community.

926
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 2: So that's why, you know, I would love for people

927
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: to buy the book. Like I said, part of the

928
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: proceeds go to the victims, but it really gives them

929
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: a voice and it changes the perspective I think of

930
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: the true crime genre. I mean, I know that you

931
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: guys probably read a lot of true crime books, and

932
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: you know, and I hope that it lived up to

933
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: some of the expectation, you know, I do sort of,

934
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, when I talk to people about the book

935
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: who've read the book. You know, one of the challenges

936
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: I had was kind of jumping back and forth between time,

937
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: and I was just curious, were you able to kind

938
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: of follow the time jumps and the juxtaposition and all

939
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: that and the different storylines.

940
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely.

941
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 4: I actually liked that format a lot because I feel

942
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 4: like you were describing the crime and then what was

943
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 4: happening in modern day with those specific set of circumstances,

944
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 4: And I found that easier to follow than in some

945
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 4: books where they lay out everything that happened forty years

946
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 4: ago and then everything that happened today. So I really

947
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 4: liked that different way of writing. I thought it was

948
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 4: really good to follow the case that was especially if

949
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 4: people don't know about it. I think it's very easy

950
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 4: to follow what was going on because this case is

951
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 4: very involved and there are a lot of details and

952
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 4: it's easy to get confused. Yeah, and especially for people

953
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 4: like us. We I mean I went to school for pathology,

954
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 4: Maria went to art school. We have no idea what

955
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 4: happens in the legal world, and we always have questions

956
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 4: and just all of this terminology that we read in

957
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 4: articles all the time, we don't really understand what it

958
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 4: means and how they get to those conclusions.

959
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 3: So it was really helpful for that stuff too.

960
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I appreciated you too, just saying like I had

961
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 4: to go back to textbooks from that time and see

962
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 4: what the laws were at that time, because as a

963
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 4: regular person, I'm just I don't understand. I wish I

964
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 4: could be a lawyer. But I always joke that I

965
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 4: cry when I get emotional, and nobody's a lawyer that's crying.

966
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: So you know what that could be powerful of itself.

967
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: You know who you are and where your emotion. Yep,

968
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 2: you know it was. I'd never written a book. This

969
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: is my first book, and honestly I never thought that

970
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 2: a was, you know, as a kid learning English, you know,

971
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 2: being in EESL, English is a second language for six years.

972
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 2: I never thought I'd be a lawyer, much less write

973
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: a book. And so the process of writing what was interesting.

974
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 2: I wrote the book in seven months essentially, and I

975
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 2: sat down, I wrote a very detail outlining, outline. It

976
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: was thirty pages long, and every morning when I when

977
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 2: I decided all right, got to get to work, got

978
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: to write the book right because I had a deadline.

979
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: I just wake up at five o'clock in the morning

980
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 2: and write for two hours and and just you know,

981
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: write a section, send it to my editor in New

982
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: York who to review it, fix the grammar, fix the structures, suggestions,

983
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: send it back to me. And then I just add

984
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: on to it and send it back. But you know, go,

985
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: you know, and I had to you know, do research

986
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: and go back and look at some some stuff, look

987
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 2: at my notes, kind of jogged my memory, you know,

988
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 2: different things. But it was it was a really interesting

989
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 2: process writing the book. And one of the things I

990
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: try to really do is simplify some of the legal

991
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: terms so that people were non wards could understand it.

992
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: Give a little bit of knowledge, but not too much.

993
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 2: Make it interesting, you know, with without getting lost in

994
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: the weeds.

995
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 3: Amazing.

996
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: Well, you're a really awesome writer, and I think that

997
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: you should not stop with this book. And I think

998
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: that I know the title for your next book, which

999
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: is nothing Good Happens After Midnight but perfect.

1000
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. Well, you know, I

1001
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 2: hope that you know, because you guys go to crime

1002
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: con every year, is that yeah? Yeah, Well, so are you,

1003
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: and I have to admit I have not been to

1004
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: crime Con. I almost went this year, but I had

1005
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 2: a scheduling conflict. Do you have a podcast role that

1006
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 2: you're at during crime Con?

1007
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 4: The last two years we've had a live show and

1008
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 4: then my mom does a solo lecture, so we haven't

1009
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 4: had a booth, but we might in the future.

1010
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: All right, Well, this year is I mean, this coming

1011
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: year is going to be in Vegas, and my intention

1012
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: is to go. I would love to meet you both

1013
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 2: in person to do a little you know whatever show

1014
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: or anything that we could do, you know, live from Vegas.

1015
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: We'll call it Live Vegas Those Death.

1016
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 1: Now, that would be so cool. I'd love that.

1017
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 4: No, absolutely amazing. Thank you Tim so much for coming

1018
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 4: on our show. The People Versus the Golden State Killer

1019
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 4: is coming out next Tuesday, November eleventh. Please pre order

1020
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 4: the book. That is huge for sales. I can't recommend

1021
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 4: this book enough. Guys, Good luck with everything. Seriously, it's

1022
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 4: it's awesome.

1023
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,959
Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you so much. Love being on your show.

1024
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,

1025
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 1: my training is as a pathologist assistant. We have a

1026
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1027
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1028
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1029
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1030
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1031
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1032
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

1033
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

1034
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1035
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

1036
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1037
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1038
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1039
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1040
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 1: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks Yo,