1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Since the initial release of our coverage of Melissa Lucio's case,

2
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: there have been some developments. This is a re release

3
00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: of that coverage with brand new content. Melissa Lucio grew

4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: up poor in South Texas, a victim of years of

5
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,160
Speaker 1: sexual abuse from multiple offenders in the home. At age sixteen,

6
00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,440
Speaker 1: she married her first boyfriend to escape tying up her

7
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,279
Speaker 1: self worth and being a mother, so much so that

8
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,639
Speaker 1: she eventually had fourteen children. The final two were twins

9
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: that Melissa delivered behind bars after having been accused of

10
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 1: allegedly murdering the next youngest sibling, two year old Mariah,

11
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 1: on February fifteenth, two thousand and seven. Mariah's older siblings

12
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 1: witnessed her take a tumble down the stairs. Lethargy and

13
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: a lack of appetite were hoped to be symptoms of

14
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,920
Speaker 1: something less severe than head trauma, but when she became

15
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,640
Speaker 1: unresponsive on February seventeenth, they called the MS. Mariah passed away,

16
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: and an aggressive interrogation ensued, resulting in an admission to

17
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,840
Speaker 1: an overarching sense of guilt that most any mother would feel.

18
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,160
Speaker 1: The usual bruising from rough play with her siblings was

19
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 1: later used to support the state's theory of a pattern

20
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: of abuse. Melissa's conviction would also go a long way

21
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,640
Speaker 1: to shore up a tough on crime image for a

22
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 1: corrupt district attorney and broiled it up scandal during an

23
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,760
Speaker 1: election year. Defying logic and the scientific method, the state's

24
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,319
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists ruled out Maria's fall down the stairs as

25
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 1: the cause of the fatal head trauma. Further, the children

26
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 1: who witnessed the accident and denied the pattern of abuse

27
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,440
Speaker 1: were not called to testify. After trial, Melissa's defense attorney

28
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 1: was immediately hired to the DA's office with a bump

29
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,919
Speaker 1: and pay. The DA got reelected, but was later prosecuted

30
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,960
Speaker 1: by the FBI, and Melissa is still on death row.

31
00:01:46,959 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

32
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: Jason Flamm. Today we're talking about the case of Melissa Lucio,

33
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,440
Speaker 1: an innocent woman on death row in Texas. To tell

34
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 1: this incredible, heroin and urgent story, we have with us

35
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 1: Sabrina van Tasseled. Sabrina is an acclaimed documentary filmmaker and

36
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,240
Speaker 1: investigative journalist who has made forty five films. And I

37
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,239
Speaker 1: think maybe it was all a build up to this one. Sabrina,

38
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 1: Welcome to Wronful Conviction, Thank you so much. And with

39
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,359
Speaker 1: her is a Texas attorney named Margaret Schmucker, and Margaret

40
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 1: has been a fierce advocate for Melissa as her habeas attorney. Margaret,

41
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: welcome to Ronful Conviction.

42
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:47,680
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

43
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,240
Speaker 1: And thank you both for being here. So over the

44
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: past few years, Sabrina has visited Melissa Lucia on death

45
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,600
Speaker 1: row in Texas, where she's been stuck since two thousand

46
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 1: and eight. And throughout this episode, you're going to hear

47
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 1: excerpts from those interviews that you can also see in

48
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,679
Speaker 1: here in Sabrina's film The State of Texas Versus Melissa.

49
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 1: And during those interviews, Melissa really was very candid with

50
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 1: you about her life, which was just beyond tragic from

51
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 1: the very beginning.

52
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 3: So Melissa was born in Houston. Her father left the

53
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 3: mom when she was three months old, and they moved

54
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,080
Speaker 3: to Harlingen, Texas, and the mother kept being, you know,

55
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 3: with different boyfriends. They were all abusive. She did tell

56
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 3: her mother that the boyfriend was sexually abusing her, and

57
00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,000
Speaker 3: the mother basically did not believe her, and then she

58
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 3: basically allowed herself to be a victim to other men

59
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 3: in the family. And once she was about fifteen years old,

60
00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 3: the first boyfriend that she got involved with she married,

61
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 3: and she started having a family right after. By the

62
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 3: age of twenty two, she already had five children. Her

63
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 3: husband introduced her to drugs, and one day the husband

64
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 3: just left her, and so all of a sudden, she's

65
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 3: twenty two and she has five children, and she meets

66
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 3: her other partner, Robert Alvarez, and together they're going to

67
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 3: have nine other children, right.

68
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 1: And two of those nine were twins that Melissa delivered

69
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,239
Speaker 1: in jail while she was being held for the alleged

70
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:26,279
Speaker 1: murder of her youngest child at that time, Mariah. So

71
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: before Mariah died, there were five from the first guy

72
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,520
Speaker 1: and seven from Robert Alvarez, for a total of twelve.

73
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 1: So some of them were still really little, some of

74
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: them were teenagers. Some of them had even moved out

75
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 1: by the time Febuary two thousand and seven year old around,

76
00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 1: which is when this incident happened. But before that they

77
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: were all living in desperate, desperate poverty and relying on

78
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: a charity called Loaves and Fishes. For most of their meals.

79
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: Melissa and robert had very unpredictable schedules because they were

80
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,919
Speaker 1: doing all sorts of odd jobs trying to support the

81
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 1: family and to keep up with all all of it,

82
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 1: or to I don't know, maybe forget their troubles. Melissa

83
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,960
Speaker 1: and robert were using drugs out of the site of

84
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 1: the children, but regrettably also while she was pregnant with Mariah.

85
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 4: When Melissa had Mariah, the seventh child with Roberta Alvarez,

86
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 4: she was born with drugs in her system, and so

87
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 4: she was taken from Melissa or mister Albarez by CPS

88
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 4: Child Protective Services, along with all of the other kids

89
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 4: that were in the home at that time, and they

90
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 4: were placed in foster care. They were fairly well split up.

91
00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 4: That continued for several years, and Melissa and Roberta were

92
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 4: given supervised visits with Child Protective Services with the kids,

93
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 4: and then finally, when Mariah's about two years old, over Thanksgiving,

94
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 4: CPS returned the seven children, who were still minors at

95
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,000
Speaker 4: the time, back into the home of Melissa and Roberta,

96
00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 4: And so it is from that point until the point

97
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,559
Speaker 4: where Mariah dies, where there's nine children in the home

98
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 4: in this small second story apartment with a rickety, scary

99
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,599
Speaker 4: stairwell on the exterior, which is the access point right.

100
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 1: And to make this accent even more likely to happen,

101
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,159
Speaker 1: Mariah had this is important, a physical impairment as well.

102
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 1: One of her feet was turned in slightly, which caused

103
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 1: her to be unstable and to fall downstairs occasionally, as

104
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,039
Speaker 1: was documented while she was in foster care. But that's

105
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 1: not all that was documented in those Child Protective Services reports.

106
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 1: There was a tremendous amount of inter sibling violence while

107
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,679
Speaker 1: in foster care and when they were living at home,

108
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 1: especially from the older sisters disciplining the younger ones who

109
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 1: they resented having to care for while their parents were

110
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,039
Speaker 1: at work. And then the boys were very rambunctious as well.

111
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the boys were fighting, you know, all

112
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 3: the time, and you know, they were big on Wwe

113
00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,080
Speaker 3: keep in mind, CPS comes by once in a while,

114
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 3: and so we have the CPS reports, and on one

115
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,559
Speaker 3: of those the very less time they came to visit,

116
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 3: which was two months prior to Mariah's death, there's concern that,

117
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,159
Speaker 3: you know, the place is too small, that those stairs

118
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 3: are very dangerous, and the parents are not around, and

119
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 3: basically it's up to the teenage daughters to supervise them.

120
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,920
Speaker 1: So among the many problems, they've got to move out

121
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 1: of this decrepit, totally unfit apartment with the rickety stairs,

122
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: and they found a first floor apartment with just two

123
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 1: or three steps leading up to the door, and that

124
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: move was going to be happening over the course of

125
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: February fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth of two thousand and seven, and.

126
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 4: So Melissa and Roberto were in the process of trying

127
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 4: to get the family moved, and so some of the

128
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 4: kids were with their mom, some of the kids are

129
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 4: with their dad. They're going back and forth in a

130
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 4: pickup truck taking loads. Mariah, being at that point about

131
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 4: two and a half years old, was in the second

132
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 4: story apartment with her mom and at least one of

133
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 4: the teenage daughters. While they were trying to pack things up.

134
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 4: Several of the younger age children about eight nine years

135
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 4: old were downstairs playing.

136
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:10,560
Speaker 2: In the backyard.

137
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 4: At some point, Melissa and the older daughter are in

138
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,200
Speaker 4: one of the bedrooms. They're packing up clothes, what have you,

139
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 4: and one of the kids who's playing in the backyard

140
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 4: came upstairs he went into the apartment to get a

141
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 4: drink of water, and there was a screen door on

142
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 4: that exterior door that had a latch on it, and

143
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 4: when he went back downstairs to go play, he left

144
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 4: that door unlatched. And Mariah, who as we've already discussed,

145
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 4: was unstable on her feet because of her small deformity,

146
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 4: went to go follow her brother and she started down

147
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,080
Speaker 4: the stairs and fell. One of her brothers saw her

148
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 4: as she sort of tumbled the last three or four

149
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 4: steps and hit her head on the pavement. Melissa, at

150
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,560
Speaker 4: this point goes looking for her and finds Maria at

151
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 4: the bottom of the stairwell, and she checks her over

152
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,959
Speaker 4: and doesn't see any serious injury. Doesn't look like she's

153
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 4: broken any bones or anything, and Mariah's not crying, she's

154
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 4: not acting like she's hurt, and so she takes Mariah

155
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 4: and they go back upstairs and they continue to pack

156
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,480
Speaker 4: and complete the move to the new apartment.

157
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 2: So by time Saturday rolls.

158
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,439
Speaker 4: Around, Mariah has already had this closed head injury from

159
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,920
Speaker 4: this fall down the stairs that is not noticeable from

160
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,800
Speaker 4: her head or her scalp, and her progression of symptoms

161
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,240
Speaker 4: during that time period is exactly what you would expect

162
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 4: for a child of that age who's had a serious

163
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,640
Speaker 4: close head injury and who has swelling on the brain.

164
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,000
Speaker 4: It progresses from lethargy to not wanting to eat, to

165
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 4: ultimately some more serious symptoms where she has lockjaw, and

166
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 4: then she basically loses consciousness, although to her parents she's

167
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 4: still just sleeping. And at that point they're already in

168
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 4: this first floor apartment, and Roberto Alvarez goes out on

169
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 4: air and he comes back and he goes to check

170
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 4: on Mariah and she is non responsive, and so they

171
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 4: do end up calling EMS, and EMS shows up at

172
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 4: this apartment and they see injuries bruises on Mariah that

173
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 4: they don't have any explanation for, and they hear Melissa say, well,

174
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,960
Speaker 4: she fell down the stairs a few days ago, and

175
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 4: we thought she was okay, but maybe she wasn't. And

176
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,480
Speaker 4: the EMS sort of jumped to the conclusion that the

177
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,319
Speaker 4: stairs Melissa is talking about are the two or three

178
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 4: steps from the ground floor apartment they are now in,

179
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,560
Speaker 4: and they have no knowledge of this full flight of

180
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,200
Speaker 4: stairs at the prior apartment that they were living in

181
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:55,479
Speaker 4: just a few days earlier, and so the EMS are incredulous,

182
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,079
Speaker 4: to say the least, they go, oh, you know, a

183
00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 4: kid can't get this injured falling down two or three stairs.

184
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,160
Speaker 5: My name is doctor Thomas Young. I am a forensic pathologist.

185
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 5: Back in twenty ten, I was contacted by Margaret Schmucker

186
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 5: on the case of Texas versus Melissa Lucio, Melissa Lucio's

187
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 5: little girl. She was not noted at first to have

188
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 5: any significant bruising, and eventually she came to the point

189
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 5: here where she stopped breathing. The bruising that was noted

190
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 5: later on was not present at first. It developed over time.

191
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,600
Speaker 5: When a child the age of Mariah has even a

192
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,440
Speaker 5: minor head injury, some children will develop brain swelling. The

193
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 5: reasons for the brain swelling are not always entirely clear,

194
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 5: but this has been called malignant brain edema. What ends

195
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 5: up happening here with the brain swelling is the pressure

196
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,440
Speaker 5: becomes high enough in the head that there isn't adequate

197
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,319
Speaker 5: blood from the usual blood pressure coming from the heart

198
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 5: to allow circulation to blood through the brain. So as

199
00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 5: the brain swells, there's less blood flow to the brain,

200
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,800
Speaker 5: and that causes the brain to be starved for oxygen

201
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,080
Speaker 5: and blood flow, which causes more swelling, which causes less

202
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 5: circulation to the brain. What you have there is a

203
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 5: vicious cycle as the brain is being damaged here from

204
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 5: a lack of oxygen, there are substances that are released

205
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,200
Speaker 5: into the bloodstream that can cause widespread clotting. Clotting factors

206
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,439
Speaker 5: that normally circulate in the blood will be triggered and consumed,

207
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,760
Speaker 5: just like kindling into a fire. And so what then

208
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,920
Speaker 5: happens here is that her clotting factors disappear, and this

209
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 5: leads to very very easy bleeding beneath the skin. So

210
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 5: any movement on the child's part, or even any minor

211
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 5: handling of the child can lead the bruising.

212
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,400
Speaker 4: And so the EMS try and resuscitate Mariah unsuccessfully, which

213
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 4: can leave its own kinds of bruises on a body.

214
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,240
Speaker 4: But the MS take her to the hospital, she does

215
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 4: pass away, and Melissa is arrested and taken to the PlayStation.

216
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so when Mariah was pronounced dead in the er,

217
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 1: she was examined, initially by an r physician named Vargas.

218
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 1: The autopsy later revealed pooling a blood in the cranial ball,

219
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 1: which forms the opinion about head trauma as the cause

220
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,120
Speaker 1: of death, but at this time Bargas noted no outer

221
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,800
Speaker 1: signs of head injury and what appeared to be evidence

222
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,120
Speaker 1: of significant physical abuse in the form of injuries and

223
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,240
Speaker 1: widespread bruising in various stages of healing, including pulled hair,

224
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 1: a broken arm from two to seven weeks prior, and

225
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,200
Speaker 1: an injury that Bargas he mistook it for a bite mark,

226
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,280
Speaker 1: but as was explained, the CPS reports documented a history

227
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 1: of inter sibling violence. Then you not only have the

228
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,199
Speaker 1: external injuries from the fall down the stairs, but also

229
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,320
Speaker 1: the internal chain reaction that led to her death among

230
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,199
Speaker 1: other medical issues, and as was explained by doctor Young,

231
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,440
Speaker 1: all the clotting factors in her bloodstream had been used up,

232
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,959
Speaker 1: causing widespread bleeding under the skin, resulting in bruises under

233
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: even the slightest pressure, let alone CPR. This condition is

234
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 1: commonly known as DEIC, which is disseminated intravascular coagulation. And

235
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,679
Speaker 1: so with the appearance of all her prior injuries are

236
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 1: the ones that stayed on the stairs and then the

237
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 1: bruising from DIC, her poor little body looked like it

238
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,880
Speaker 1: had been through a horrific ordeal. So you can easily

239
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,440
Speaker 1: see how there's a straight line from Vargas's report of

240
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 1: what appears to be rampant child abuse and Melissa's terribly

241
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:33,400
Speaker 1: flawed interrogation.

242
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you're not wrong.

243
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 4: This information was all then conveyed to the police, and

244
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 4: the police went in to the interrogation room with Melissa

245
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,120
Speaker 4: with already the preconceived notion that this had to have

246
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 4: been physical abuse, and it had to have been physical

247
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 4: abuse by Melissa in their view, because she was Mariah's

248
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 4: primary caretaker, because she was the mother, And that's where

249
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 4: her nightmare really sort of begins as her involvement with

250
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 4: the criminal justice system in this case, because she is

251
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 4: interrogated at length, well into the night and early wee

252
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 4: hours of the morning by multiple police officers who are

253
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 4: aggressively denying her explanation that Mariah had fallen down the

254
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 4: stairs and her attempts to explain any older injuries that

255
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 4: Mariah might have as having been the result of the

256
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 4: rough play with her other older kids, which is well

257
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 4: documented by CPS and by other just sort of slips

258
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 4: and falls because she has a tendency to do that,

259
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,560
Speaker 4: and they just aggressively deny this, deny, this deny this,

260
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 4: they won't believe her, and finally, in the wee hours

261
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 4: of the morning, they get her to say that she's responsible.

262
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 4: And they never get her to say really that she

263
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 4: murdered Mariah, or that she hit her on the head

264
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 4: or anything. They just get her basically to admit responsibility

265
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 4: in the sort of overarching way of a mother being

266
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 4: responsible for the circumstances that led to her child's death,

267
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 4: and so she is charged with capital murder.

268
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: At that point, it's actually remarkable that she was able

269
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: to not really confess. I mean, they called it a confession,

270
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 1: but she didn't really confess. But eventually she was questioned

271
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,680
Speaker 1: by a Texas ranger named Escalon. She confessed basically having

272
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 1: spanked Mariah several times and other minor abuses which we

273
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 1: now know didn't happen, like biting her. So she was

274
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: confessing to things that didn't even make any sense at

275
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 1: all because they weren't true. She was just basically trying

276
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 1: to say, I guess anything she could to get out

277
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: of this awful situation, and Tarriget went so far as

278
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 1: to ask Willista to demonstrate the spanking on a doll,

279
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 1: and it was encouraged by the investigator to spank the

280
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 1: doll harder, right, I mean, and this is on video, right,

281
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 1: show me how you.

282
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 5: Would do it, but I mean the way you actually

283
00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 5: did it.

284
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,760
Speaker 6: Just give on her back.

285
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,160
Speaker 1: We'll do it real hard, do it. But the way

286
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 1: you would do it.

287
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,879
Speaker 6: I mean, I wouldn't found on her.

288
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 3: M hmm.

289
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,400
Speaker 7: It was it harder.

290
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,120
Speaker 5: Because I just I will do it hard.

291
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,680
Speaker 7: Well, you're doing it on yourself.

292
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:25,240
Speaker 3: This is.

293
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,880
Speaker 7: I mean, I wasn't polling on her.

294
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,159
Speaker 5: Yes, okay, and this is just what it waspect.

295
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,960
Speaker 6: My name is doctor John Pinkerman. I was the clinical

296
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 6: psychologist appointed to Miss Melissa Lucio's defense team. Melissa had

297
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 6: a history of certainly abuse, sexual abuse, and mistreatment going

298
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 6: back into adolescence and continuing throughout her adulthood in which

299
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 6: she acquiesced to multiple individuals that abused her. She became

300
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 6: pretty compliant with individuals, didn't tend to break free from them,

301
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 6: and often continue the relationships even though they were really

302
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 6: self defeating. For so, we felt this was you know,

303
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,960
Speaker 6: and I felt it was really a problem issue that

304
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 6: helped explain some of the behavior that she evidenced during

305
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 6: the interrogation and how she came to provide an acquiescence.

306
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,440
Speaker 6: I don't know if I want to call it a confession,

307
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 6: but an acquiescence to the investigators in regard to her conduct.

308
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 6: I was struck by how she was explaining that she

309
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 6: was spanking the children, or spanking Melissa, and she was

310
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 6: it appeared like coach to show stronger force in striking

311
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 6: the table in the interview room. You know, all of

312
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 6: that contradicted every piece of information that we had. You know,

313
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 6: we never heard from any of the children that she

314
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 6: provided physical discipline, and certainly not to the extent of

315
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 6: causing the alleged injury and subsequent death.

316
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 4: It's important to note that he didn't just encourage her

317
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 4: to spank the dull harder.

318
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 2: I mean, he encouraged you to confess to things.

319
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 4: Which she had no knowledge of or had no part of.

320
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,160
Speaker 4: He told her there was a bite on Mariah's back

321
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 4: and got her to confess to having bitten Mariah and

322
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,919
Speaker 4: at least my medical expert, so that wasn't even a

323
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 4: bite mark. It was a parallel striation bruises from having

324
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 4: fallen down the flight of stairs on her shoulder blade.

325
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 4: And so Ranger Escalon got Melissa to admit to a

326
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 4: type of abuse of Mariah that did not exist, that.

327
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 2: Had not happened at all.

328
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 4: And again, that's sort of a hallmark of a false confession,

329
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,439
Speaker 4: is getting somebody to confess to something that there's no

330
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,120
Speaker 4: evidence of.

331
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: At the end of it. And this really is such

332
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,199
Speaker 1: a painful thing to think about. And I saw it,

333
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 1: of course in the film. But you know, she ultimately says,

334
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 1: I wish it was me that got hurt and then

335
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:14,400
Speaker 1: started crying.

336
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 5: How do you feel when you see these pictures.

337
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 6: Noises?

338
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 8: Maybe it not hurt.

339
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to add? Okay, listen,

340
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: it's three fifteen am, and that will end the interview.

341
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

342
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

343
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

344
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

345
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

346
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: criminal justice area. So during the interrogation, Escalon asked Melissa

347
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: if they would find a fractured skull during the autopsy,

348
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: even though the er physician said there was no sign

349
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 1: of head injury. But Escalon had this theory right. So

350
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: on Monday February nineteenth, two thousand and seven, Escalon went

351
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 1: to the chief forensic pathologist of Carmen and Hidalgo Counties,

352
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: a woman named Norman Jean Farley, after having extracted this

353
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: coerced and patently false statement, which I think it can

354
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: be said was at least leading information, and that's probably

355
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 1: too gentle of a word, and then Farley made her findings,

356
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: ruling that due to the presence of blood in the

357
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: cranial vault, that the cause of death was in fact

358
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: blunt force had trauma. And then she went on during

359
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: the trial to say that a fall down those same

360
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 1: rickety stairs could not possibly have been the cause of

361
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: blood force head trauma. But that doesn't sound anything like science.

362
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: That sounds like pure conjecture, right.

363
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

364
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 5: My name is doctor Thomas Young. Doctor Norma Jean Farley,

365
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 5: who is also a forensic pathologist, has made a mistake

366
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 5: very common in forensic pathologists, the idea that you can

367
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 5: look at an autopsy, that you can look at findings

368
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 5: on a body and be able to determine the very

369
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 5: very complex succession of events that happened in the past

370
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 5: to lead to that event. This is reasoning backwards. It

371
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 5: doesn't work. It is like trying to solve blind plus

372
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 5: blank equals four. If you think four is the consequence

373
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 5: of blank plus blank, looking at four doesn't give you

374
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 5: the answer to what goes in the blanks. What doctor

375
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 5: Farley did was she reasoned backwards, ignoring all these witness accounts.

376
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 5: She says that she knows for certain what happened here

377
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 5: to Mariah Alvarez. And this is arrogant where you ignore

378
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 5: what multiple witnesses say who were there to actually see

379
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 5: what happened. This is absurd. This is just a flat

380
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 5: out guess. But doctor Farley approaches it as if she

381
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 5: is certain about this.

382
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 3: How does she know that you cannot get blad trauma

383
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 3: from a fall down the stairs. I mean, it makes

384
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: no sense.

385
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 4: You know, the science has developed at the time of

386
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 4: Maria's death in since that it is possible for a

387
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 4: child to fall down even a very short flight of

388
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 4: stairs and have a fatal head injury. All I can

389
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 4: say is Norma Farley just wrong on the science on that.

390
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 4: You know, you put an expert on the witness stand

391
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 4: and the jury, you know, gives them an awful lot

392
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 4: of credence if they have appropriate credentials, And of course

393
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 4: Norma Jean Farley was the medical examiner for the county,

394
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 4: and so they give her testimony quite a bit of

395
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 4: credibility clearly in reaching the verdict that they did.

396
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sure sounds like the science is being adjusted

397
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: to fit the narrative when that is exactly the opposite

398
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: of how this all should function. Right. So now we

399
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: get to the trial, which the state argued that Melissa

400
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: had confessed to a pattern of abuse and inflicting the

401
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: fatal blows that killed Mariah, even though the video clearly

402
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: shows that that is not the case. So they supported

403
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: the theory that Melissa was abusive with evidence that Mariah

404
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: had bruises, which we know she did, that were at

405
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: various stages of healing. But we also have covered why

406
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: they were there, and that had nothing to do with

407
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: Melissa except the fact that she was not in control

408
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: of her own life at that point. And Norma Jean Farley,

409
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: again as the chief forensic pathiylogist, testified that Mariah's death

410
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: was the result of blood force head trauma. She continued

411
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: that it must have occurred within twenty four hours of death,

412
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: and that it would have been immediately apparent that Mariah

413
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: was in distress and in need of medical attention. We

414
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: of course, now know that one can experience up to

415
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: seventy two hours of lucidity after blunt force head trauma

416
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: as the brain swelling and bleeding develops over time, resulting

417
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: in an eventual death. So, like so many instances in

418
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: which the doctor is trying to diagnose child abuse, Farley's

419
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: assertion here is one of many leaps in logic. And

420
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: Farley continued to testify that Mariah suffered multiple contusions to

421
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: her head area, but somehow she was magically able to

422
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: rule out that the strikes to the head were not

423
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: the result of tumbling down the stairs. Now, I don't

424
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: think she witnessed the tumbling down the stairs, so again,

425
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: how in the world would she know that? Well, she wouldn't,

426
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: but this is probably what she thought that the authorities

427
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: wanted to hear. So just so we're clear, Melissa's defense

428
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: did put on the stand an expert named doctor Curry.

429
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: Correct, yes, they did.

430
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 4: But when they qualified doctor Curry as an expert, since

431
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 4: he was a pediatric neurologist, he was not a forensic scientist,

432
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 4: and so they did not allow him to testify it

433
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: regarding the source of any of her other injuries anywhere

434
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: below the neck. And so because the defense didn't hire

435
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 4: a better expert or more appropriate expert, they were not

436
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 4: able to counter the state's case that all of these

437
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 4: prior injuries were from being beaten repeatedly over a period

438
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 4: of weeks or months. But he did contradict Norma Jean

439
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: Farley's testimony in the timing of the head injury that

440
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 4: caused her death. Norma Jean Farley had said that the

441
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 4: injury had to have occurred approximately twenty four hours prior

442
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 4: to her death. Doctor Curry, who was a pediatric neurologist,

443
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: testified that it could have occurred earlier than that, you know,

444
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 4: anywhere from forty eight to seventy two hours before she died.

445
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 4: And so that becomes important when you look at the

446
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 4: timeline of events of the family moving and everybody being together,

447
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 4: you know, either at the old place so the new place,

448
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 4: or in transit about whether or not Melissa was ever

449
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 4: alone with Mariah.

450
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: Melyssa was never alone with Mariah.

451
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, when you go back through all of the evidence

452
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: that the state had collected whether they used it or not.

453
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 4: At trial, you find that Melissa was never alone with

454
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 4: the kids at all, whether you look at the timeline

455
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: suggested by doctor Farley or you look at the timeline

456
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: suggested by doctor Curry.

457
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: How could you possibly be alone in a two room

458
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: or so apartment with nine kids, It's preposterous.

459
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 4: They did not present the evidence that she was never

460
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: alone within that twenty four to seventy two hours prior

461
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 4: to Mariah's death, and that the kids were never allowed

462
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: to testify that they'd never seen their mom hit Mariah

463
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: during that period of time. She was never alone with

464
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 4: Maria during that period of time. And then there's the

465
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 4: issue with doctor Pinkerman. The defense did try to put

466
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 4: doctor Pinkerman on to talk about why my Melissa might

467
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: have made this so called confession of being responsible when

468
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 4: in fact she was not, and the court refused to

469
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 4: allow doctor Pinkerman to testify to that.

470
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 6: My colleague, Normal Villanueva, was a social worker, and she

471
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 6: and I developed different theories about the case as we

472
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 6: went along. In our meetings with the defense team. We

473
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 6: raised questions in our meetings to the second Chay Council,

474
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 6: just sort of asking is it possible that we could

475
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 6: take a look at these issues and concerns that individual

476
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 6: deferred to the lead attorney, mister Gilman. I was not

477
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 6: asked to provide any testimony during the guilt innocence phase

478
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 6: of the trial, but in the sentencing phase. I felt

479
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 6: my testimony was abbreviated in a way because there was

480
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 6: a lot of background information that I was prepared to

481
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 6: offer to the court that would, I hope, mitigate the

482
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 6: ultimate sentence. It seemed that there was not much interest

483
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 6: in having that information, as I understand, of course, the

484
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 6: appeal was based on, specifically on my lack of opportunity

485
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 6: to present that kind of viewpoint.

486
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: Melissa didn't have anybody on her behalf. Her kids weren't

487
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: allowed to testify, nobody was allowed to testify.

488
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 4: She was alone in her defense because no one was

489
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: really brought in to testify. Even though her trial attorneys

490
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: knew that the older girls had admitted to causing Mariah's injuries,

491
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 4: they knew that the younger kids had testified to seeing

492
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: Mariah fall down the stairs, and they knew or should

493
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 4: have known if they put sort of two and two

494
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 4: together of all the various pieces of evidence that were available,

495
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: to them that Melissa was never alone with Mariah at

496
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 4: the time, but they never put any of the evident.

497
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: On with what the jury was presented with. The results

498
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: were as predictable as they were tragic and wrong. She

499
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: was convicted and sentenced to death.

500
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 7: When the jury came back and said that they found

501
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 7: me guilty, even though I did hear the word guilty,

502
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 7: I didn't want to step it. The best way to

503
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 7: describe it is, I felt like I was in a

504
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 7: dream and then I will wake up and I would

505
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 7: be at home with my kids.

506
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 3: You know.

507
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 7: Everybody was screaming and crying, and they let me out

508
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 7: from the courtroom. They took me back to my cell

509
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 7: and I remember I slept. I just tried to block

510
00:30:43,480 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 7: out everything that had happened in that courtroom. I figured

511
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 7: my children would be able to testify, that they would

512
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 7: be able to get on that stand, and I know

513
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 7: that they would come out and say the truth. And

514
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 7: mister Gilman, he didn't want to. He told me no

515
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 7: because he didn't know what the prosecutors had in store

516
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 7: for them, and he didn't want them to try to

517
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 7: manipulate them. And he felt that it wasn't there wasn't

518
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 7: a need for my children to be understand.

519
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, someone listening to this cold would probably come

520
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: away with the impression that the defense attorney was almost

521
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: like an adjunct prosecutor. And as crazy as that sounds,

522
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: it's not that crazy when you think about the fact

523
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: that he went to work for the prosecutor immediately after

524
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: the trial, and why would the prosecutor's office hire him

525
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: at a higher salary than the seasoned prosecutors that were

526
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: already working there immediately after having watched him do as

527
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: terrible of a job as an attorney can possibly do

528
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: for their client. It's just stinks so bad.

529
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: It does stink.

530
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: But let me make some clarifying points about what really happened.

531
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 4: Right before Mariah dies, there was another murder case in

532
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: the Brownsville area, and the defendant was a guy by

533
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 4: the name of Amat Livingston.

534
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: Mister Livingston ends up, I.

535
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 4: Believe, pleading guilty to murder, but with the agreement of

536
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 4: the District attorney's office, Armanda Vielobos, he is released in

537
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: order to go put his affairs in order before he

538
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 4: has to go to prison. When he's released, he disappears.

539
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: He's found more than a decade later, hiding out in India.

540
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: But in any event, at the time he's gone missing

541
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: in action.

542
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 4: And the newspapers picked this up and they're like, you know,

543
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: why did the District Attorney's office agree with this? This

544
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 4: was all very bad press for mister vo Loobos, who

545
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 4: was getting ready to run for reelection of the District

546
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 4: Attorney of Cameron County.

547
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: He needed a win, and he needed a win big.

548
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: And right after all this happened is when Mariah died.

549
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 4: And Melissa's the perfect target. She's poor, she's Hispanic, there's

550
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 4: a dead baby with a lot of bruises. This is

551
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: the perfect vehicle for mister vo Lobos to go, I'm

552
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 4: hard on crime. Re elect me to District Attorney's office.

553
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 4: So obviously Melissa gets convicted since to death, mister vo

554
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: Lobos gets re elected, and within a fairly reasonable time

555
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 4: after mister Vio Lobos is reelected, that's when Pete Gilman

556
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: goes to work for the District Attorney's office.

557
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: Un fucking believable. Please continue now.

558
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 4: I did an open records request to find out about

559
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 4: the hiring process for mister Gilman, and what I found

560
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 4: out was he was supposedly interviewed on an unknown or

561
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: unstated date by mister vo Lobos himself, and was hired

562
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: and had accepted the job before he'd even submitted a

563
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 4: CD or a resume to the human resources department. He

564
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 4: was hired first, and then he submitted those papers, so

565
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: that was kind of shady. And then you find out

566
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 4: that he gets a pretty good salary. District attorneys don't

567
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 4: usually get paid the way attorneys in private practice do.

568
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 4: It's usually a starter salary, a stepping stone to something bigger.

569
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 4: He gets hired in at a pretty significant rate, and

570
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 4: then his wife is also hired.

571
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: Wow, you know, just when you think you've heard everything,

572
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: so he's accepted the job. We don't know exactly what

573
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: it could have been before the trial. For all we know, right,

574
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: he could have actually been working for the prosecution while

575
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: supposedly defending Melissa. And let's just look at what he

576
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: did and did not do during the trial. This Gilman

577
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: character failed to call as witnesses any Melissa's children who

578
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: had seen mariafle down the stairs. Okay, that alone is

579
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: fucking shocking. Then there was the social worker, right Norma Villanueva,

580
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: to whom Melissa's daughter Alexandra bravely had said that she

581
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: was the reason Mariah fell down the stairs. The social

582
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: worker was instructed by Gilman to not alert anyone to

583
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: this statement that sounds like the work of an adjunct prosecutor.

584
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: She was, not, of course, called to testify. There was

585
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: also a host of witnesses that were interviewed and or

586
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: put on the stand by the state that together never

587
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: placed Melissa alone with Mariah. Yet to that that no

588
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: witness ever saw Melissa beat Mariah at any time, and

589
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: Melissa and Riah whenever alone. We know that Farley's theory.

590
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: A first year law student could have connected these dots

591
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: and shown that Farley's theory was nonsense. But none of

592
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: that was ever done for the jury. And then just

593
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: process this with me for a second. Right, So there's

594
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: a horrible interview with Gilman after he had already joined

595
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: the prosecutor's office formally, instead of only you know well anyway,

596
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: but he said and I quote, she was not a

597
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: good mother. Did she kill her child? I don't know

598
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: end quote.

599
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 3: When I interviewed Peter Gilman, because that's in the film,

600
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: you would have thought that Melissa was his worst enemy.

601
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 3: He had nothing nice to say about her. He went

602
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: on and on. It was quite an extraordinary And I

603
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 3: said to him, I kept asking him. I was like,

604
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 3: what was your strategy? What was your strategy at troll?

605
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: And he couldn't answer. I think I asked him that

606
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: question maybe seven times. What was your strategy? I mean,

607
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: did you believe that it was an accident? Did you believe?

608
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: He couldn't answer. He had no strategy.

609
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: He had a strategy. It wasn't a defense strategy, but

610
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: he had a strategy and to get himself a better job. So,

611
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: in case you haven't heard enough yet, and in case

612
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: you were looking for an even more terrible villain in

613
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: this story, if such a thing as possible, boy, do

614
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: we have one for you now. The elected district attorney,

615
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: a gentleman named Armando Via Lobos and mister Villa Lobos

616
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: was at the time of this all that stuff taking place,

617
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: He himself was at the center of an FBI investigation,

618
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: and for good reason. There was a public scandal that

619
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: emerged because he was using his office to enrich and

620
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: empower himself through several different schemes, one of which was

621
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: bribery in exchange for favorable outcomes.

622
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 3: At trial, he was involved with cartels. He would bring

623
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: lawyers and judges to Las Vegas and pretend to lose

624
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: in poker games so you know, he could bribe them.

625
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 3: It goes on and on. Basically, his agenda was to

626
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 3: take money from, you know, people who could pay him,

627
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: and then for people like Melissa he would use to

628
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: be reelected. The moment he heard about Melissa's case, he

629
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: was at the police station, I mean while Melissa's being interrogated.

630
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: I mean he's already there. He just completely used her case.

631
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: You know, Margaret will tell you how very rare for

632
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: DA's to actually get personally involved, you know, in cases.

633
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: I mean, he even did the ending statement at her trial.

634
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 4: He not only did the ending statement, but he actually

635
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 4: examined one of the state's witnesses, and he had the

636
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 4: state's witness get up off the witness stand and pretend

637
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 4: to shake a child like shaken baby syndrome, which has

638
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 4: questionable scientific background, especially for a child of Mariah's age.

639
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 4: If you talk to the scientist, they will tell you

640
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 4: that a child as large as Mariah, if you'd shaken

641
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 4: her hard enough to cause the brain to sort of

642
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 4: shake back and forth inside the skull and be damaged.

643
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: You have to have broken her neck.

644
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 4: But he nevertheless has this witness pretend to violently shake

645
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 4: a child as a demonstration. You know, I don't know

646
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 4: how intensely that played into the jury's verdict, but I'm

647
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 4: sure it wasn't ignored.

648
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: And then he took part in this sentencing phase to

649
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: make sure that she got.

650
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: Death I mean, and he had to prove to the

651
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 3: jury future dangerousness. And Melissa had no prior history of

652
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: violence whatsoever. So all of a sudden, he needs to

653
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 3: prove to the jury that, you know, she is so

654
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 3: violent that she actually might be a danger and that's

655
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 3: why she needs to be on death row. Right, let's

656
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 3: put it this way. I mean, if Melissa Lucio is

657
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: the type of person that is actually the most dangerous

658
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 3: person in America, that she would end up on death row.

659
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we were in trouble.

660
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: She wasn't even the most dangerous person in the courtroom.

661
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: That da was the most dangerous person in the courtroom.

662
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: He was running a continuing criminal enterprise. He's doing backroom

663
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: deals with cartels, He's bribing judges and lawyers, He's selling verdicts,

664
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: letting murderers serial murderers run free. I mean, this guy,

665
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: he'd be a cartoon villain, except there's nothing funny about

666
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: any of it. So we know how rare it is

667
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: for prosecutors to be prosecuted, but this one the FBI

668
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: took very seriously and they got involved, to say the least, right,

669
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: how did it end up?

670
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 7: Well?

671
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 3: I interviewed Michael Wynn, who was the lead prosecutor against

672
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 3: Armando Villa Lobos, and of course I never had any

673
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: contact with the ABI, but he told me that they

674
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 3: were trying to get him because he was running for

675
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: Congress and they wanted to make sure that that did

676
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: not happen. So they were trying to get him, and

677
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 3: they had so much on him. You know.

678
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 4: The feedback that I got on that later was there

679
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 4: was so much on mister Volobos that they decided to

680
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 4: stick to sort of their slam dunk case for conviction

681
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: because they just needed him gone. And so Melissa's stuff,

682
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 4: it came out a little bit in the Fiolobo's trial,

683
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 4: and the bit about a living and Melissa's involvement, and

684
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 4: that came out on trial, but it was very very limited.

685
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 4: It wasn't the focus of their energies at mister Vealogos's

686
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 4: federal criminal truth.

687
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 3: You know, I find that extraordinary as an outsider that

688
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 3: you know you have, you know, a quarter pointed attorney

689
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 3: who now works at the DA's office, who basically did

690
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: not defend Melissa at all, and then you have a

691
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: DA who got thirteen years of federal prison, but you

692
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: know that has nothing to do with Melissa's case, and

693
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,959
Speaker 3: you know her case should not be re examined. It's infuriating.

694
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: Every single case that this guy had anything to do

695
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: with needs to be immediately reopened and thoroughly re examined.

696
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying, to be clear that everybody that

697
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: he prosecuted is innocent, but a lot of them probably are.

698
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: And in any case, it's abundantly clear that almost none

699
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: of them could have possibly gotten a fair trial. And

700
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: Melissa absolutely did not get what she is constitutionally guaranteed,

701
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: which is a fair trial. And what I find particularly

702
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: shocking is if Gilman hasn't even been disbarred. I mean,

703
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: this case is a literal poster child for ineffective assistance

704
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: of counsel. But Melissa remains a death row to this

705
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: very day, and the State of Texas is desperately continuing

706
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: to try to execute her. So her direct appeal was denied,

707
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: you filed her state habeas and then it moved on

708
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: to federal habeas and ended up in the Fifth Circuit

709
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals, which is the conservative federal court that

710
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: sits on top of Texas among other states.

711
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: And it's at that.

712
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 4: Point that I ended up kind of being dropped out

713
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 4: of the case. But what ended up happening there was

714
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 4: ultimately a panel of the Fifth Circuit three judges ordered

715
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 4: that Melissa should get a new trial. The state was

716
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 4: not happy with that outcome. They asked for what's called

717
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 4: a rehearing en banc, which is a rehearing in front

718
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 4: of all of the justices of the Fifth Circuit Court

719
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: of Appeal. The request for on bank rehearing was granted,

720
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 4: and just recently the Fifth Circuit issued an opinion which

721
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 4: was deeply divided, that denied Melissa the right to a new

722
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 4: trial and again affirm what happened in the state court.

723
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 4: So from here she has to file a request for

724
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 4: her case to be heard in the United States Supreme Court.

725
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 3: And we pick what one percent of cases.

726
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: Probably probably less than one percent of the cases, so

727
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 4: you know her adds you know of having our case

728
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 4: taken are not good and there are some additional post

729
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 4: conviction procedural maneuvers which may take place. Since I'm no

730
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 4: longer her attorney, I don't know what they're going to

731
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 4: be doing.

732
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: We had a chance to speak with Melissa's current counsel,

733
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: Vanessa Potkin, who heads up Melissa's team from the Innocence

734
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: Project in New York. Vanessa, please bring us up to

735
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: date on what has been filed on Melissa's behalf and

736
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: where we're at now.

737
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 9: In the middle of January, the state of Texas set

738
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 9: an execution date for Melissa Lucio for April twenty seventh,

739
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 9: and after that date was set, the Innocence Project joined

740
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 9: Melissa's legal team. We recognize the urgency that was involved

741
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 9: here and that Texas was on the verge of executing

742
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 9: an innocent woman, and so we teamed up to look

743
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 9: into the forensic issues that existed at the time of trial,

744
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 9: and since that time have just worked with over seven

745
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 9: new forensic and medical experts that supported a clemency petition

746
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 9: that was filed on Melissa's behalf on March twenty second

747
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 9: and we're also looking into, you know, whether we can

748
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 9: get back into court with some of this new evidence

749
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 9: that supports Melissa's innocence and that no court has ever considered.

750
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: It's so terrifying that here we are again on the

751
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: verge of another state, another Southern state, in this case,

752
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: executing another innocent person and Vanessa. My understanding is that

753
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: there's a politically diverse array of groups and folks who

754
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,959
Speaker 1: have made their concerns known about this initizen woman who,

755
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: let's face it, she suffered a grave tragedy that was

756
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: bad enough, right she lost her little daughter and now

757
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: has had that tragedy. Can you tell us about this

758
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: coalition that's joined together and supported this innocent woman, Melissa Lucio.

759
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 8: What we're seeing is really unprecedented here. There is a

760
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 8: group of nearly one hundred lawmakers from Texas Republicans and

761
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 8: Democrats that have come forward to try to stop this

762
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 8: execution and to call on the Board of Partments and

763
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 8: Parole and Governor Abbott to issue clemency here. And I

764
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 8: think that's reflective of this innocence claim. And people are

765
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 8: seeing that this was a rush to judgment, that there's

766
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 8: evidence of Melissa's innocence that no court has ever considered,

767
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 8: and just what is at stake here if this execution

768
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 8: goes forward. So you have people who are proponents of

769
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 8: the death penalty stepping in and saying, you know, this

770
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 8: can't go forward because there's too much doubt, there's too

771
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 8: much inequity between the sentence that Melissa got and what

772
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 8: her husband got. There's too many questions given this new

773
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 8: medical evidence of her innocence.

774
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, there's a tremendous outpouring of support, hundreds

775
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: of faith based groups, dozens of anti domestic violence and

776
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: sexual assault groups, hoops ex hoonnaies themselves, death row ex honeries.

777
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: It's all over social media now. Kim Kardashian and the

778
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: people who are most affected by this, right, the brothers

779
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: and sisters of the little girl who tragically died, are

780
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: unanimous in their support of their mother, and they were

781
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: there absolutely.

782
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 8: They lost their youngest sibling and their mother has been

783
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 8: you know, on death row for nearly a decade and

784
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 8: a half now, and so I imagine the trauma that

785
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 8: this family has endured in executing her for something she

786
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 8: didn't do. For what was a tragedy, not a crime.

787
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 8: Would just exponentially increase the injustice in the family's pain.

788
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: But still these efforts, which would seem to be you know,

789
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: a tidal wave, haven't been enough yet anyway, So if

790
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: our audience wants to join, which there's still more to

791
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: be done, She's still sitting on death row. So what

792
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: can people do to help?

793
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 8: So we would ask people to go to Save Melissa

794
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 8: dot org. There's a petition. Sign your name to the petition.

795
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 8: If you live in Texas, call Governor Abbott and the

796
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 8: Texas Board of Pardons and Parole and let them know

797
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 8: that you support clemency for Melissa Lucio. If you live

798
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 8: in Texas, you can call the Cameron County District Attorney

799
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 8: and ask him to withdraw Melissa Lucio's execution date. If

800
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 8: you can make a video, a post a story about

801
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 8: Miss Lucio's case on Instagram, TikTok, or any other platform

802
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 8: and use the hashtag save Melissa Lucio, We're.

803
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: Going to put links in the bio to all of

804
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: these different actions that you can take. Every single person,

805
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: make your voice heard, and let's save Melissa Lucio's life

806
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: before it's too late. And now we turn to the

807
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: part of our show that always seems to be the best.

808
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: Closing arguments and how this works is very simple. First

809
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 1: of all, I want to thank are two esteemed guests

810
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: for just coming and sharing your passion and your expertise.

811
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm talking about Sabrina van Tassel and Margaret Schmucker.

812
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: Thank you both again for being here.

813
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.

814
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: Thank you Jason so much.

815
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: Closing arguments works like this, I turn off my microphone,

816
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: kicked back in my chair and just listen to whatever

817
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: you have to say, whatever you feel there is left

818
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: to say after this extraordinary conversation. So we'll start off

819
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: with Margaret, then Sabrina, and then Melissa.

820
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 4: I've talked about other lawyers in this I feel like

821
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 4: I need to make it clear that you know, there's

822
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 4: nothing I've said today that isn't readily available as a

823
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: matter of court record. But you know the key take

824
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 4: home points. You know that there is and was, you know,

825
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 4: some level of corruption involved in this case. There is

826
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 4: evidence that you know, Melissa could not have caused more

827
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 4: injuries in the time frame that she was said to

828
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,919
Speaker 4: have cast women, that she's never been violent with her kids.

829
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 4: There is an absolute difference between physical abuse, which is

830
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: an action, and neglect, which is an absence of an action,

831
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 4: and her entire history is neglect because she.

832
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: Just had too many kids.

833
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: And we have to always also be concerned about the

834
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 4: fact that are we looking at all this evidence through

835
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 4: the lens of sort of white privilege, and we have

836
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 4: to take a step back and say, you can't do that.

837
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 4: You have to look at it from her perspective and

838
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: what was going on in her life and why she

839
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 4: was acting the way she was. And of course for

840
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 4: that we had doctor Pinkerman, and as to the physical stuff,

841
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 4: obviously we have doctor Young.

842
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: I would really hope that.

843
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 4: At some point Melissa's case we'll get back into court

844
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 4: and that she will be fully exonerated and will be

845
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 4: set free to be with her children.

846
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 3: She's been away from her children for thirteen years. She

847
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,959
Speaker 3: hasn't seen most of her kids and that time, and

848
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: she's never seen her mother again. She's never seen her

849
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 3: brothers and sisters. I mean, she's been all alone on

850
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: that throw twenty four hours a day, waiting for her fate.

851
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 3: And she's someone who didn't stand a chance from the

852
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 3: first day. And I hope and pray that you know,

853
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 3: people will get interested in her case and start tweeting

854
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 3: about her and talking about her and raise this horrible story.

855
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: You know, together we'll, you know, find a way to

856
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: get her out of there.

857
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: And now we'll hear from Melissa.

858
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 7: My name is Melissa Elizabeth Lucio. I'm forty eight years old.

859
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 7: I have fourteen children. It's been very hard to wake

860
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 7: up each morning and not and now I hear them

861
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 7: calling out for me. The state of Texas wants to

862
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 7: kill me every day. I asked God, why I often

863
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 7: think about my daughter Mariah. I've had a lot of

864
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 7: dreams about her. I've dreamed that her and I are

865
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 7: out there and that she's running around in her little

866
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 7: dress and she's wanting me to comb her hair, brush

867
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 7: her hair, put Baretts on her hair, paint her nails,

868
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 7: paint her toenails, and put some lipstick on her lips.

869
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 7: It's hard to have dreams about your children because when

870
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 7: you wake up and then you see where you're at,

871
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 7: you wish that it wouldn't happen, a dream, that it

872
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 7: would have been reality. There are days that I feel

873
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 7: that I could just leave this place and be reunited

874
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 7: with Mariah.

875
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 2: And just.

876
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 7: I'm sorry that I wasn't there to protect her and

877
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 7: I failed her. I failed her in many ways.

878
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

879
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Kleibern, and Kevin Wardis,

880
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

881
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

882
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

883
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

884
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

885
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

886
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flahm. Wrongful Conviction is

887
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

888
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one