1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I recently called up my friend Safie Bacall. I 2 00:00:23,276 --> 00:00:26,036 Speaker 1: wanted to see if he could correctly guess the answer. 3 00:00:26,076 --> 00:00:26,876 Speaker 2: To a puzzle. 4 00:00:27,916 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: First of all, before we start, I just wanted to 5 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:35,236 Speaker 1: briefly establish your bona fides for this conversation. You have 6 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:41,436 Speaker 1: a PhD from m I T is that correct? Stanford, Stanford, Stanford, 7 00:00:41,996 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 1: and you went on to be to work on the 8 00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 1: development of a number. 9 00:00:47,236 --> 00:00:48,076 Speaker 3: Of different. 10 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:50,796 Speaker 1: Drugs, So that's correct. 11 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:51,876 Speaker 4: I did. 12 00:00:52,276 --> 00:00:54,676 Speaker 1: Safi ran a drug company for a long time that 13 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: worked on some of the hardest problems in cancer treatment. 14 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 1: In preparation for our call, I sent Safie the package 15 00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:05,996 Speaker 1: insert for something called rototech. As I'm sure you've noticed, 16 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: when you get a prescription drug, there's a leaflet inside 17 00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 1: the box, all folded up, tiny print. That's the package insert. 18 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:17,556 Speaker 1: It tells you in great detail, every benefit, every side effect, 19 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,716 Speaker 1: every clinical study associated with your medication. The Food and 20 00:01:21,756 --> 00:01:26,116 Speaker 1: Drug Administration and drug companies spend years working out the 21 00:01:26,156 --> 00:01:29,756 Speaker 1: exact wording of that leaflet. And I'm assuming you've never 22 00:01:29,796 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: read this before. 23 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 5: Never read it before. I just saw it twenty minutes 24 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 5: ago whenever you sent it. 25 00:01:35,356 --> 00:01:39,076 Speaker 1: Rod Tech is a vaccine to protect babies against a 26 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:44,396 Speaker 1: very nasty intestinal bug called rotavirus. What Softie first noticed 27 00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:46,076 Speaker 1: was how well it worked. 28 00:01:46,276 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 5: Where I go to right away that's interesting is the 29 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 5: efficacy data, which is post marketing adverse events description, drug 30 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 5: interactions Clinical Studies, section fourteen. Yeah, that's amazing. You look 31 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:07,836 Speaker 5: at table eight on page ten or whatever. Yeap, there 32 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:15,516 Speaker 5: was one incidence of any grade of diarrhea or gastritis, 33 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:18,716 Speaker 5: which is what this virus is supposed to protect, and 34 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:21,636 Speaker 5: fifty one on the placebo arm. 35 00:02:21,996 --> 00:02:23,556 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so it's. 36 00:02:23,516 --> 00:02:28,916 Speaker 5: Fifty times higher. Fifty times higher. More kids will get 37 00:02:30,516 --> 00:02:37,436 Speaker 5: some serious or moderate diarrhea or gasprininturitis compared to those 38 00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 5: who got the vaccine. And that tells me, of course 39 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 5: I want the vaccine for my kid. 40 00:02:41,796 --> 00:02:46,516 Speaker 1: Yeah. If I told you you had a drug undevelopment 41 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:49,156 Speaker 1: that had efficacy data where there was a fifty x 42 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:52,796 Speaker 1: difference between treatment and control, what would you what word 43 00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 1: would come out of your mouth? 44 00:02:54,516 --> 00:03:01,276 Speaker 5: That's absolutely astonishing, that's just jaw dropping. You almost never 45 00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 5: see that kind of efficacy in a therapeutic for treating 46 00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 5: active disease. You see it once in a generation. You know, 47 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 5: a fifty x improvement is incredible. 48 00:03:13,596 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 1: And now that Sophia knew what we were talking about, 49 00:03:16,076 --> 00:03:18,116 Speaker 1: it was time to see if he could answer my 50 00:03:18,236 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 1: little puzzle, a puzzle connected to the co inventor of rhototech, 51 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:26,556 Speaker 1: a man named Paul Offitt. I want to read you 52 00:03:27,116 --> 00:03:29,276 Speaker 1: now that we've done this, I want to read you 53 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 1: from a book. I'm going not to tell you who 54 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: wrote it, but someone in a position of real authority 55 00:03:35,036 --> 00:03:39,076 Speaker 1: in the world. The best evidence indicates that doctor off 56 00:03:39,156 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 1: Its rotavirus vaccine causes negative net public health impacts. In 57 00:03:43,596 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 1: other words, doctor Offitz vaccine almost certainly kills and injured's 58 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:50,516 Speaker 1: more children in the United States than the rotavirus disease 59 00:03:50,596 --> 00:03:52,756 Speaker 1: killed and injured prior to the vaccine's introduction. 60 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 5: That's just complete bullshit. I don't know what else to say. 61 00:03:59,996 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 5: That's just you look at this data. This is extremely robust, 62 00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 5: careful data. If you look at the statistics are probably 63 00:04:09,236 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 5: and all of the numbers and tables here is just 64 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:16,676 Speaker 5: absolute nonsense. 65 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:18,356 Speaker 1: Do you want to guess who wrote that? 66 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 5: Does it rhyme with jeneity? 67 00:04:23,876 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 3: Yeah? 68 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: Oh, Sophie, you win the prize. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 69 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:34,636 Speaker 1: You're listening to revisionist History, my podcast about things Overlooked 70 00:04:34,676 --> 00:04:39,556 Speaker 1: and misunderstood. This episode is the very strange story of 71 00:04:39,836 --> 00:04:43,436 Speaker 1: Rhodo tech I vaccine that every American infant is supposed 72 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 1: to get three times in their first eight months of life, 73 00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 1: or rather, the very strange campaign waged against Rhodo tech 74 00:04:51,996 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: by Robert F. Kennedy Junior, the Secretary of Health and 75 00:04:55,636 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 1: Human Services, the man in charge of every aspect of health, 76 00:05:00,036 --> 00:05:12,156 Speaker 1: medicine and research in the United States. If you are 77 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 1: the parents of small children in the developed world in 78 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 1: the twenty first century, diarrhea is not high on your 79 00:05:18,676 --> 00:05:21,556 Speaker 1: list of things you worry about. But that was not 80 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: true of your parents when you were a child, or 81 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: your parents' parents, or anyone else for that matter, going 82 00:05:27,676 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 1: back as far as human beings go, particularly those living 83 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:34,716 Speaker 1: in the poorest parts of the world, this is what 84 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:35,676 Speaker 1: it used to be like. 85 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 6: There's one vivid memory that I can actually think of 86 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 6: is going into these pediatric wards and you had patients, 87 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 6: these children literally to the point that you would actually 88 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 6: have a daria ward, a separate daria ward, because that 89 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 6: was the quantum of cases that you would see in 90 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 6: hospitals without exception. 91 00:06:06,036 --> 00:06:10,436 Speaker 1: This is vishwejit Kumar, a pediatrician and public health researcher 92 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 1: in Uttar Pradesh, one of the poorest states in India, 93 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:18,156 Speaker 1: Remembering his days as an intern in the nineteen eighties. 94 00:06:19,516 --> 00:06:26,036 Speaker 6: You have babies who come in dehydrated, severely dehydrated, and 95 00:06:26,076 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 6: the force thing, you know, sunken eyes. You know, you 96 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 6: could just pull their skin and you'll find that, you know, 97 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:36,436 Speaker 6: they just don't retract because there's no doug of pressure. 98 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 1: A small child would get sick with the rotavirus, they 99 00:06:40,796 --> 00:06:44,036 Speaker 1: would run a fever, they would start vomiting, they would 100 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:47,476 Speaker 1: develop severe diarrhea as the virus rea havoc in their 101 00:06:47,516 --> 00:06:53,476 Speaker 1: stomach and intestines. That's three sources of dehydration suddenly and simultaneously. 102 00:06:53,956 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 1: And if the child was far from a hospital and 103 00:06:56,476 --> 00:07:00,596 Speaker 1: already malnourished, they were in trouble. The best estimates at 104 00:07:00,636 --> 00:07:03,876 Speaker 1: the time were the children in developing countries had between 105 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 1: four and eight episodes of severe diarrhea in their first 106 00:07:07,596 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 1: five years of life, each lasting from two to ten days. 107 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 1: For doctor Kamar, this meant a giant room for those 108 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 1: shrunken infants, two and sometimes three to a bed. 109 00:07:20,996 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 6: So you have these sweepers whose job is to just 110 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 6: keep cleaning the mess, or the parents would do it, 111 00:07:29,636 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 6: or the parents would clean it. You know. 112 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:34,476 Speaker 3: And of the children in that ward in that era, 113 00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 3: how many would you lose? 114 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:39,956 Speaker 6: Okay, so let's say that is a hundred of them 115 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:44,996 Speaker 6: will come in with severe and life threatening darreet, you'd 116 00:07:44,996 --> 00:07:46,156 Speaker 6: lose ten percent for sure. 117 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, I mean to lose one. To be 118 00:07:52,076 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 3: a doctor and lose one baby must is emotionally overwhelming. 119 00:07:56,756 --> 00:08:00,396 Speaker 3: You're talking about over the course. So though, over the 120 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:02,876 Speaker 3: course of working in a ward, you would lose dozens 121 00:08:02,916 --> 00:08:05,356 Speaker 3: of children over the course of months. 122 00:08:05,396 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 6: Yes, yes, So to give you an example, so we 123 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 6: do these verbal autopsies because hospitals don't have good records, 124 00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 6: and so essentially reconstruct that event so that then experts 125 00:08:20,036 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 6: can sit around and say this possibly could have led 126 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:27,836 Speaker 6: to BED. I have never been able to go through 127 00:08:27,956 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 6: one verbal autopsy in one city. 128 00:08:33,476 --> 00:08:34,036 Speaker 7: What do you mean? 129 00:08:34,156 --> 00:08:38,116 Speaker 6: It's so heartbreaking because you're like, oh, you know, this 130 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:42,196 Speaker 6: could have been so, this could have been prevented. 131 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:43,036 Speaker 8: You know. 132 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 6: It's like you look at these cases and see every 133 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:48,996 Speaker 6: newborn dies. That is one mother who also in some 134 00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:51,636 Speaker 6: ways there is some part of it dies with her. 135 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 1: The battle against rotavirus took years. First, the virus itself 136 00:08:57,076 --> 00:08:59,956 Speaker 1: had to be identified, separated out from all the other 137 00:08:59,996 --> 00:09:03,476 Speaker 1: pathogens that can cause diarrhea in young children. Then a 138 00:09:03,556 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 1: vaccine had to be constructed from that newly identified virus, 139 00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: another time consuming ten One of the leading groups working 140 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:14,516 Speaker 1: on the problem was at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, 141 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:18,596 Speaker 1: at a lab run by Paul Offitt. You helped develop 142 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 1: the rotavirus vaccine in what year did that? Did that 143 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 1: come out? 144 00:09:24,036 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 7: Two thousand and six, two thousand and six. 145 00:09:25,916 --> 00:09:26,956 Speaker 1: How long did you work on that? 146 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 7: Twenty six years? 147 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 5: Wow? 148 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 1: Why was that a hard problem to solve? 149 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 7: I don't think it was terribly hard to solve. It 150 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 7: just takes a long time to solve these things. Although 151 00:09:39,796 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 7: the veterinarians knew this to be a cause of disease 152 00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:46,196 Speaker 7: and animals since the forties, it wasn't really described as 153 00:09:46,236 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 7: a human pathoge until the seventies, so there wasn't a 154 00:09:48,036 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 7: lot of information about this. So we developed a small 155 00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 7: animal model for the disease in the early eighties, and 156 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:56,756 Speaker 7: then we figured out and simply put which part of 157 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 7: the virus made you sick and which part of the 158 00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 7: virus induced immune sponsor that was protective, and with that information, 159 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 7: we then combined strains that were a virulent benign with 160 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:11,276 Speaker 7: virulent strains to knock out the virulent part but include 161 00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 7: the protective part, Thus summarizing twenty six years of work 162 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 7: in forty seconds. 163 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:21,036 Speaker 1: Offits group took their candidate vaccine to the drug company Merk, 164 00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 1: which spent well over a billion dollars to bring the 165 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 1: candidate vaccine to market. The result was Rottech And. 166 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:32,516 Speaker 7: With that, you know, the vaccine eliminated, really eliminated hospitalizations 167 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:33,156 Speaker 7: from this country. 168 00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:33,836 Speaker 6: We don't really. 169 00:10:33,956 --> 00:10:36,356 Speaker 7: Most pediatric residents in our hospital have never seen an 170 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 7: inpatient with rotavirus, which is amazing because it dominated my residency. 171 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:42,076 Speaker 1: It dominated your residency. 172 00:10:42,156 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, no, you over the winter, you were just 173 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 7: flooded with kids both in the emergency department and coming 174 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:50,156 Speaker 7: into the hospital severe dehydration. Yeah, and now the one 175 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 7: and now the hospitalizations are gone. 176 00:10:53,356 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 1: Other rotavirus vaccines followed. A group of scientists in India 177 00:10:57,116 --> 00:11:00,556 Speaker 1: developed their own in twenty sixteen. Also around this time, 178 00:11:00,676 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: many developing countries made huge strides in sanitation, which cut 179 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: down on the spread of the virus. Oral rehydration therapy 180 00:11:07,876 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 1: became widespread, and now the dedicated diarrhe awards that were 181 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: such a big part of Kumar's training are all but gone. 182 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:18,796 Speaker 1: It's hard to find anyone who works with children and 183 00:11:18,836 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 1: remembers the way things were who isn't in love with 184 00:11:22,276 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: the rotavirus vaccine. And you s have lists the most 185 00:11:25,716 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 1: important innovations that you've seen that have affected the lives 186 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:31,996 Speaker 1: of children. Where does this rank. 187 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 8: At the top amongst the top? 188 00:11:35,956 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: This is doctor Zulfikar Bhutah, co director for the Center 189 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:43,636 Speaker 1: of Global Child Health at Sick Kids Hospital in Toronto. 190 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:47,076 Speaker 1: He spent years as a pediatrician in his native Pakistan. 191 00:11:47,756 --> 00:11:51,556 Speaker 8: We went down from ten million child debts under five 192 00:11:51,996 --> 00:11:55,316 Speaker 8: in the year two thousand by twenty fifteen to just 193 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 8: under six million deaths. Today they are down to around 194 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:01,996 Speaker 8: three million debts in children on the five. It's the 195 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:05,996 Speaker 8: fastest rate of reduction in child deaths and the history 196 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 8: of mankind. And it hasn't just happened by happens fast. 197 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 1: And this is the vaccine that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 198 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:16,076 Speaker 2: Hates. 199 00:12:28,516 --> 00:12:30,596 Speaker 1: I have to confess that I knew very little about 200 00:12:30,636 --> 00:12:33,356 Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Junior before he ran for president in 201 00:12:33,436 --> 00:12:36,756 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. But as he loomed larger and larger 202 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 1: in the news, I realized I had his most recent book, 203 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:43,556 Speaker 1: The Real Anthony Fauci, Bill Gates, Big Pharma and the 204 00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 1: Global War on Democracy and Public Health. His publicist must 205 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 1: have sent me a review copy when it came out 206 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. I found it in a big 207 00:12:52,436 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: pile of books on the porch, so I decided to 208 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:58,756 Speaker 1: read it all four hundred and ninety two pages. And 209 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: it was there in chapter three that I discovered the 210 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: particular loathing that RFK Junior has for the rotavirus vaccines. 211 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: I couldn't make head nor tails of it, which is 212 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:11,156 Speaker 1: why I had to call my friend Safi boocall up. 213 00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 1: We were going over the package insert, which you thought 214 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:19,876 Speaker 1: was clean as a whistle, Yeah, right, And so I 215 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 1: was trying to figure out why, if it was as 216 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 1: clean as a whistle, does Kennedy have such a problem 217 00:13:26,236 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: with rototech and rotavirus vaccines in general? And I want 218 00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:34,596 Speaker 1: to read to you the key paragraph in his book, 219 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 1: which and we're going to try and solve this puzzle together, 220 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:40,436 Speaker 1: because I have a vague idea, but I think i'm 221 00:13:40,636 --> 00:13:43,636 Speaker 1: I can't my idea is so reflects so poorly on 222 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:46,476 Speaker 1: him that I part of me thinks it can't be 223 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:53,396 Speaker 1: the right idea. This is the key paragraph. Reported adverse 224 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:56,956 Speaker 1: reactions from doctor off its roto Tech vaccine ranged from 225 00:13:57,036 --> 00:13:59,636 Speaker 1: nine hundred and fifty three to sixteen hundred and eighty 226 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:04,836 Speaker 1: nine per year. These included fever, diarrhea, vomiting, irritability, into 227 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: susception since severe combined immunity deficiency. See Kennedy lists twenty 228 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 1: different really bad things he thinks are associated with rhodo Tech, 229 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:20,236 Speaker 1: ending with gastro enteritis, pneumonia, and death. Then he writes 230 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 1: the paragraph that I read to Sofi at the beginning 231 00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 1: of this episode. The list of adverse reactions is so 232 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:30,156 Speaker 1: long that rot tech quote almost certainly kills and injures 233 00:14:30,196 --> 00:14:33,676 Speaker 1: more children in the United States than the rotavirus disease 234 00:14:33,756 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 1: killed and injured prior to the vaccine's introduction. Now, I 235 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 1: have to say that at this point things get deeply confusing, 236 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:45,996 Speaker 1: because I couldn't figure out where that number nine hundred 237 00:14:46,036 --> 00:14:49,356 Speaker 1: and fifty three to sixteen hundred and eighty nine adverse 238 00:14:49,476 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 1: reactions a year comes from. In the real Anthony Fauci 239 00:14:53,556 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: Kennedy lists as his source the package INCERT, but those 240 00:14:57,316 --> 00:15:00,796 Speaker 1: numbers aren't in the package INCERT. We hired a fact 241 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: checker with a PhD in biology, and she couldn't figure 242 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:07,636 Speaker 1: out where Kennedy's numbers come from either. Then we thought, oh, 243 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 1: he got the numbers from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, 244 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 1: which is the government run database where anyone can report 245 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,276 Speaker 1: a side effect that they think is associated with a 246 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 1: vaccine keyword think. But VEHIRS is in Kennedy's source either. 247 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 1: We found the numbers. VERS only has three hundred and 248 00:15:26,036 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 1: forty four reports of side effects over fifteen years for 249 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: all rotavirus vaccines, of which only thirty two are serious, 250 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:36,876 Speaker 1: which is like miles and miles away from the massive 251 00:15:36,956 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 1: number of problems that Kennedy's talking about. And even if 252 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:42,956 Speaker 1: he just made a typo and read the numbers wrong, 253 00:15:43,196 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 1: it still doesn't prove his case because, as the CDC says, quote, 254 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 1: a report to VERS does not mean a vaccine caused 255 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 1: an adverse event end quote. So just because a baby 256 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: vomited after getting his rototech doesn't mean rototech caused the 257 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 1: vomiting baby's vomit. All the time to prove the vaccine 258 00:16:02,996 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 1: was the cause of the side effect. You really have 259 00:16:04,996 --> 00:16:07,996 Speaker 1: to dig into the data look for patterns, or, better yet, 260 00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:10,676 Speaker 1: go back to the original clinical trial and see if 261 00:16:10,716 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 1: there were any clues when the vaccine was first tested 262 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: for side effects. In the case of rhodotech, the clinical 263 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 1: trial was enormous. Twelve countries, thirty four thousand infants were 264 00:16:21,276 --> 00:16:24,796 Speaker 1: given the vaccine, thirty four thousand were given a pacbo. 265 00:16:25,076 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 1: The babies were followed for a full year, and absolutely 266 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:32,636 Speaker 1: every medical event that happened to them was recorded and analyzed. 267 00:16:33,156 --> 00:16:36,436 Speaker 1: Sixty eight thousand babies. If in the course of a 268 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:39,796 Speaker 1: year the babies who got the vaccine had more complications 269 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: than the babies who got the placebo, then that would 270 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 1: raise a red flag. It would suggest, wait, maybe the 271 00:16:45,716 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: vomiting was the result of the vaccine, But if there 272 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: was no difference in the experience of those two groups, 273 00:16:52,076 --> 00:16:55,876 Speaker 1: it would suggest any associated problems were just the kind 274 00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 1: of health problems that you'd expect to see as a 275 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: matter of course, in a very large group of babies. 276 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 1: All of this data is laid out in the package. 277 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 5: Insert page five the SAE series adverse events, and you 278 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:13,076 Speaker 5: would just look at that table and you would say, 279 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 5: no difference. 280 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:17,316 Speaker 1: The table is a comparison of side effects in the 281 00:17:17,396 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 1: kids who got the vaccine and the kids who didn't. 282 00:17:20,596 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 5: Numerically, if anything, there were more essays on the placebo 283 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 5: than the control arm. But it's insignificantly. It's like the 284 00:17:30,876 --> 00:17:34,956 Speaker 5: difference between eating a banana or an apple. Yeah, no difference. 285 00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: Together, we went through every one of the medical problems 286 00:17:38,396 --> 00:17:42,836 Speaker 1: listed on the chart. Gos true and is point six 287 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 1: percent treatment? Treatment? What's that placibo? He would just use 288 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:51,036 Speaker 1: it is that where we are now? We kept finding 289 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: the same thing. No difference, no difference in any difference. 290 00:17:55,476 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 5: Let's see point six point six No, no difference and seizures. 291 00:18:01,996 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 5: See where are your next page? Yes, seizures. Yes, Numerically 292 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 5: maybe a little higher, but the SAEs were exactly the same. 293 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:17,796 Speaker 1: But somehow Kennedy reached the opposite conclusion in his book 294 00:18:18,156 --> 00:18:23,276 Speaker 1: The Real Anthony Fauci, Kennedy writes, quote, since its approval, 295 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:28,996 Speaker 1: doctor Offit's rotavirus vaccine has caused a wave of catastrophic 296 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 1: illnesses and agonizing death. 297 00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 3: I mean, that's just. 298 00:18:36,596 --> 00:18:39,956 Speaker 4: A stonishingly. It just makes it just astonishing. 299 00:18:40,276 --> 00:18:42,276 Speaker 5: Yeah, so wait, what's he doing? 300 00:18:42,396 --> 00:18:45,436 Speaker 1: He looked at the same thing you looked at and 301 00:18:45,516 --> 00:18:49,996 Speaker 1: decided that the rotavirus vaccine was causing this enormous burden 302 00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:53,876 Speaker 1: of adverse reactions. I have to say I got completely 303 00:18:53,996 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: obsessed with this. Where is RFK Junior getting his information? 304 00:18:58,956 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 1: And what about the data from the clinical trial? Did 305 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 1: he not read it? Did he read it and not 306 00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 1: understand it? Or did he read it and understand it 307 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 1: and just say yah. You have a simple chart that 308 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: has two columns, one columns called pacebo and one columns 309 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:22,636 Speaker 1: called treatment. And he decided to completely ignore the column 310 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 1: called pacbo right exactly. 311 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:28,196 Speaker 9: He decided to reach a conclusion about the vaccine by 312 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:32,836 Speaker 9: looking at it by by by fundamentally not just misinterpreting. 313 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,956 Speaker 9: He got a he's one eighty one hundred and eighty 314 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 9: degrees wrong in his interpretation of the data, and he 315 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:43,796 Speaker 9: had to he had to place It's as if he 316 00:19:43,836 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 9: took his hand and placed it over the side of 317 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 9: the chart that says placebo, like there has to be 318 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 9: some agency here that allows you to look at something 319 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 9: that has two rows and only see one row. 320 00:19:55,916 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 4: Well, firstly, I doubt that he actually looked at this source. 321 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 4: I'm furious, A pretty busy guy, and you know. 322 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 10: But Spasafi, he writes half of an entire chapter denouncing 323 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 10: the ronavirus vaccine. It's not like this is this is 324 00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 10: not a He's not making this observation in passing. He's 325 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 10: going after at length one of the most significant public 326 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 10: health advances of the last twenty five years, right, telling 327 00:20:18,556 --> 00:20:22,116 Speaker 10: us get his saved millions of lives. This is not 328 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 10: trivial stakes here, right, he's big game hunting here. 329 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:26,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. 330 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 4: Wasn't he trained as a lawyer? I don't know he's 331 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:34,476 Speaker 4: a lawyer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because on the last I 332 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:39,116 Speaker 4: guess I try to air on sort of generous explanations 333 00:20:39,476 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 4: and maybe you are you go on the other side. 334 00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 4: I don't know. But aren't lawyers trained to do that 335 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 4: sort of thing, dig deep into facts and make a 336 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:50,236 Speaker 4: case or prove or disprove a case. You would think 337 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 4: that would be part of your legal training. 338 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 1: But if you if you was you're a lawyer, and 339 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 1: made this argument in court, you would be humiliated by 340 00:20:58,876 --> 00:20:59,796 Speaker 1: opposing counsel. 341 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 4: Yeah, he would take five seconds. 342 00:21:01,996 --> 00:21:04,916 Speaker 1: Who just hold up the chart and say, oops, yeah, 343 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:06,116 Speaker 1: that's the other side. 344 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:07,036 Speaker 4: Yeah. 345 00:21:07,276 --> 00:21:10,956 Speaker 1: One last one of but a very specific one, which 346 00:21:11,076 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: is if you're going to do this. Why does he 347 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:20,036 Speaker 1: link to the source that refutes his argument? He so 348 00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: I can understand. I want to completely misinterpret the clinical 349 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 1: data on rhodo tech. I want to make the sorry 350 00:21:28,836 --> 00:21:31,116 Speaker 1: about vaccines, and I'm going to clasp my fingers and 351 00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:34,036 Speaker 1: hope that ninety five percent of my readers don't notice. 352 00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:37,916 Speaker 3: But then he gives you the link to the very 353 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 3: thing that shows you that he's absolutely wrong. 354 00:21:41,436 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 1: Who does this? 355 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:43,796 Speaker 3: He's not even a good liar. 356 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:48,996 Speaker 11: What was that word that they used a few years ago, truthiness? Yeah, right, 357 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:53,556 Speaker 11: there must be an equivalent word of scienceiness. My book 358 00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:57,796 Speaker 11: has sciency neus because it has footnotes that are sciency done. 359 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:02,956 Speaker 1: By the way, this isn't even the half of it. 360 00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:05,276 Speaker 1: If you spend any time at all immersed in the 361 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 1: words and thoughts of rfk Jr. It's pretty clear that 362 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,796 Speaker 1: the person who he hates above all others is Anthony Fauci. 363 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 1: Kennedy really really doesn't like Anthony Fauci. He wrote a 364 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:18,236 Speaker 1: four hundred and ninety two page book about how much 365 00:22:18,236 --> 00:22:21,036 Speaker 1: he hates Anthony Fauci. But do you know who's a 366 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 1: close number two? Paul Offit, the inventor of rototech in 367 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:30,236 Speaker 1: the real Anthony Fauci, Kennedy spends pages on off It. 368 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:34,916 Speaker 1: He writes off It quote represents himself as an authoritative 369 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: source of reliable information, but he's actually a fond of 370 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: wild industry bally who prevarication and outright fraud end quote. 371 00:22:45,436 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 1: Tune into any of the countless podcast interviews Kennedy has 372 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 1: given and you'll find the same thing. After he's gone 373 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:54,956 Speaker 1: after Fauci, he goes after Offit, to the point where 374 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,636 Speaker 1: after Kennedy goes on Joe Rogan and went on one 375 00:22:57,636 --> 00:23:00,156 Speaker 1: of his usual Paul off At rants, off It got 376 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:01,956 Speaker 1: death threats and hate mail. 377 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 7: I mean, I don't know if this is the whole 378 00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 7: Rogan thing, but he attacks me all the time because 379 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:09,476 Speaker 7: I committed the unpardonable sin of being the going ventnor 380 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 7: of the rodavirus vaccine, which by the way, saves about 381 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:14,316 Speaker 7: one hundred and sixty five thousand lives a year in 382 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 7: the in the world. I thought that was a good thing, 383 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 7: but apparently, according to him, I'm just the pharma show. 384 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. I keep seeing him go after you, and I'm 385 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:27,636 Speaker 1: trying to sort of understand, but he's never to your knowledge, 386 00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: has he ever kind of acknowledged what you what you 387 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:34,036 Speaker 1: guys created was of value to mankind. Has he's never 388 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:38,116 Speaker 1: has he ever acknowledged that no. One hundred and sixty 389 00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:41,156 Speaker 1: five thousand people a year doesn't believe it? 390 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 7: But did he? 391 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:45,996 Speaker 1: I mean, did he actually work through the logic of this? 392 00:23:46,156 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 7: So he just not publicly? I mean, I don't know, 393 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 7: I don't know what how his brain works. 394 00:23:52,876 --> 00:23:54,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 395 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:56,196 Speaker 7: Maybe it was that warm, Maybe the worm was telling 396 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 7: him to do it. 397 00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but this is 398 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 1: just bizarre. If I was someone who really didn't like 399 00:24:05,836 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 1: vaccines and I was writing my massive opus on the subject, 400 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:12,596 Speaker 1: I'd pick a really marginal vaccine to go after, something 401 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: with dubious benefits, lots of side effects, something with a 402 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:19,956 Speaker 1: Veri's data was really alarming, I don't know, an inexplicable 403 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: wave of strokes or seizures or something worrisome in people 404 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 1: who got the vaccines. But what does Kennedy do the opposite? 405 00:24:28,596 --> 00:24:32,116 Speaker 1: He goes after maybe one of the most important public 406 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 1: health triumphs of the last one hundred years, a vaccine 407 00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:39,556 Speaker 1: with a package insert that is so immaculate that he 408 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:43,996 Speaker 1: literally has to create an objection that is transparently false. 409 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 1: It makes no sense. By the way, if you're wondering 410 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 1: why we didn't just call up RFK Junior himself and 411 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:57,996 Speaker 1: ask him directly, oh, we tried over and over again, calls, 412 00:24:58,316 --> 00:25:01,876 Speaker 1: emails right up to the Department of Health and Human Services. 413 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:04,516 Speaker 5: Thank you for calling the United States Department of. 414 00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 2: Health and Human Services. 415 00:25:05,756 --> 00:25:10,916 Speaker 1: Total run around. Then to his lawyer, longtime confidant, Aaron Siri, 416 00:25:11,356 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 1: who was all willing to be interviewed until I told 417 00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 1: him I wanted to talk about the rotavirus vaccine, at 418 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: which point he put all kinds of stipulations and restrictions 419 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:22,556 Speaker 1: on how our interview would proceed, including the fact that 420 00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: we couldn't tape record it. And then when we finally 421 00:25:25,676 --> 00:25:28,156 Speaker 1: did talk, Siri couldn't come up with any kind of 422 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: plausible explanation for what his good friend and client was doing. 423 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 3: Either. 424 00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:36,636 Speaker 1: I thought, is there someone else like a call? Was 425 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:38,276 Speaker 1: I ever going to get to the bottom of this? 426 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:43,156 Speaker 1: And then I realized, maybe I'm overthinking things. Maybe I 427 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:46,636 Speaker 1: just need to keep reading Kennedy's book, And so I did, 428 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:51,276 Speaker 1: and sure enough, there it was the answer in chapter nine, 429 00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 1: entitled The White Man's Burden. One of the pre eminent 430 00:25:57,756 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 1: figures in modern medicine was the nineteenth century French microbiologist 431 00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: Louis Pasteur. Pasteur is the pioneer of germ theory. Infectious 432 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 1: diseases are the result of foreign microorganisms that invade the body. 433 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,716 Speaker 1: Every time you get a vaccine created specifically against a 434 00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 1: particular virus, or take an antibiotic optimized to fight a 435 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:24,796 Speaker 1: specific strain of bacteria, you are following Pastor's logic. Germ 436 00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:29,396 Speaker 1: theory is one of the foundational ideas of modern medicine, 437 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:32,676 Speaker 1: and in chapter nine of The Real Anthony Fauci, we 438 00:26:32,836 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: learned that Robert F. Kennedy Junior doesn't believe in germ theory. 439 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:42,556 Speaker 1: He is instead a follower of Pastor's nemesis. Another nineteenth 440 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: century French microbiologist named Antoine Beauchamp. Bichamp argued that Pester 441 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:52,276 Speaker 1: had it backwards. You don't get sick because you've been 442 00:26:52,316 --> 00:26:55,476 Speaker 1: infected by a bug. The bug emerges in response to 443 00:26:55,516 --> 00:26:58,716 Speaker 1: the fact that your body was already sick. The bug 444 00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 1: is a symptom, not cause. What matters is the terrain 445 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:08,316 Speaker 1: of the body, an individual's internal state of health. It's 446 00:27:08,596 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: really hard to find people who believe in Antoine Beauchamp's theories. 447 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 1: I spent hours on the internet looking before finally stumbling 448 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:20,236 Speaker 1: upon another disciple. Maybe you'll recognize his voice. 449 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 12: And past tour believed the germ theory. Obviously, that's the 450 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:29,476 Speaker 12: theory that he pushed, right, and then Benchamp believed in 451 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 12: the terrain theory. Now that's what I believe. 452 00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: This is the actor Woody Harrelson on Joe Rogan. 453 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 12: Of course, the terrain theory, the germ theory. Obviously, a pathogen, 454 00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 12: a germ, a virus, whatever lands in your corn flakes 455 00:27:48,036 --> 00:27:51,676 Speaker 12: or on your eyeball or whatever, it gets inside and 456 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 12: then in this blank, pristine, blank slate environment, it causes damage, 457 00:27:57,596 --> 00:27:59,556 Speaker 12: maybe sickness, and eventually death. 458 00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:05,356 Speaker 3: To me, I don't believe this theory as much as I. 459 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 12: Do the terrain theory, which is that your health is 460 00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:14,916 Speaker 12: dependent upon your internal biological terrain and your internal filthiness 461 00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:19,156 Speaker 12: or cleanliness. And so that's what I believe is where 462 00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 12: people's immune system gets messed up from what they're consuming, 463 00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:29,236 Speaker 12: and in a nutshell, that's why I believe in Bechamp's 464 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 12: theory as opposed to the germ theory. 465 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:35,156 Speaker 1: I should point out guess who whatdy? Harrelson is good 466 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:38,676 Speaker 1: friends with RFK Junior. So maybe what we're looking at 467 00:28:38,716 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 1: here is not two BIS champions who arrived at the 468 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:46,076 Speaker 1: same conclusion independently, but one BI champion who infected another 469 00:28:46,756 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 1: in defiance of everything BI champion. Of course, there is 470 00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:56,956 Speaker 1: some truth to terrain theory. Diabetes and heart disease are 471 00:28:57,036 --> 00:28:59,516 Speaker 1: the result in part of what Beauchamp would call a 472 00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:03,156 Speaker 1: disturbed terrain. A body that, because of obesity, was smoking, 473 00:29:03,236 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 1: or bad nutrition or a lack of exercise, has become 474 00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:10,316 Speaker 1: vulnerable to chronic disease. But Kennedy, he doesn't stop there. 475 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,036 Speaker 1: He's a radical BI champion. He believes that if you're 476 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:17,076 Speaker 1: otherwise healthy, the cold virus is just not going to 477 00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: be an issue. HIV is probably not going to give 478 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 1: you AIDS, not if you take care of yourself. There's 479 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:24,956 Speaker 1: a whole chapter on HIV and AIDS in his book 480 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: making a version of this argument. Early in his time 481 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 1: as Secretary of Health and Human Services, there was a 482 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:34,876 Speaker 1: major outbreak of measles in Texas, and Kennedy's response was 483 00:29:34,956 --> 00:29:39,396 Speaker 1: so lackadaisical that his press secretary quit, it seems, in 484 00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 1: disgust Measles's only a problem if you're unhealthy. The virus 485 00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: is the symptom, not the cause. It took several months, 486 00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 1: two children dying, and over five hundred cases for him 487 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 1: to finally give an interview where he said, Okay, you 488 00:29:55,236 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 1: should get the measles shot. Kennedy is unhappy to this 489 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: day that in the nineteenth century battle between Louis Pasteuur 490 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:07,956 Speaker 1: and Antoine Beauchamp, Pasteur came out on top. Listen, this 491 00:30:07,996 --> 00:30:10,956 Speaker 1: is from the audiobook version of the real Anthony Fauci 492 00:30:11,236 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 1: being read by what really really seems like AI. 493 00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:18,996 Speaker 2: For Better or Worse, The champions of germ theory, Louis 494 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:23,996 Speaker 2: Pasteur and Robert coch proved victorious in their fierce decades 495 00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 2: long battle with their miasmist rival and Twine Bechamp. 496 00:30:28,916 --> 00:30:31,916 Speaker 1: Just so you're aware, if you're thinking of getting the audiobook, 497 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:35,956 Speaker 1: you're in for twenty seven hours and twenty minutes of this. 498 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:41,036 Speaker 2: The ubiquity of pasteurization and vaccinations are only two of 499 00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 2: the many indicators of the domineering ascendancy of germ theory 500 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:50,076 Speaker 2: as the cornerstone of contemporary public health policy. A one 501 00:30:50,156 --> 00:30:56,236 Speaker 2: trillion dollar pharmaceutical industry pushing patented pills, powders, pricks, potions, 502 00:30:56,276 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 2: and poisons, and the powerful professions of virology and vaccinology 503 00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 2: led by Little Napoleon himself Anthony Fauci, fortifies the century 504 00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:11,556 Speaker 2: old predominance of theory. 505 00:31:12,356 --> 00:31:17,916 Speaker 1: What doesn't RFK Junior like pills, powders, pricks, and potions, 506 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 1: the very things that the Department of Health and Human 507 00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:23,636 Speaker 1: Services brings to the world. And of all the pills 508 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 1: and powders and pricks within his domain, the one he 509 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:30,836 Speaker 1: hates the most is rototech. And why does he hate rototech? 510 00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:35,436 Speaker 1: Because he's a bi champion, and a bi champion has 511 00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:39,716 Speaker 1: to hate rototech because if Kennedy admits that rototech works, 512 00:31:40,076 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: then the whole edifice of nineteen century pseudoscience that he 513 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:49,156 Speaker 1: has committed himself to comes tumbling down. RFK Junior likes 514 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 1: to pretend that he is alarmed by vaccines that do 515 00:31:51,996 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: not work. No, he's alarmed by vaccines that do work. 516 00:31:58,036 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 1: Heaven help us next time on Revisionist History. The plot 517 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 1: dickens and the virus spreads MARV K Junior to Joe Rogan. 518 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:25,796 Speaker 2: And then we run into each other and Aspen just 519 00:32:25,956 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 2: Randa is the weirdest moment because we're both staring at 520 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:29,276 Speaker 2: each other. 521 00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:31,436 Speaker 7: Yeah, and then we almost did it like a full 522 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:32,316 Speaker 7: three six. 523 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 2: Eight yeah yeah, yeah. I noticed you walking. I'm like, 524 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:40,516 Speaker 2: that's it is, so I said, hey, what's up. 525 00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:49,156 Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Nina Bird Lawrence, 526 00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: and bend A da f Hafrey. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. 527 00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:56,716 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Kate Ferby, Original scoring by Luis Kara, 528 00:32:57,276 --> 00:33:00,476 Speaker 1: engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, Mixing and mastering on this 529 00:33:00,556 --> 00:33:05,276 Speaker 1: episode by Marcelo Dia Lavera. Production support from Luke LeMond. 530 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Sarah 531 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:14,156 Speaker 1: X and el Hafe Gretacombe. I'm Malcolm Glampo.