1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio news. 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: Stacy, I'm a little concerned this this studio that we're 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: recording this episode of Everybody's Business in is good. I'd 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: say it's like sixty nine seventy degrees, so very cool. Cool. 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 3: What's cool may too cool? 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 4: Well, that's a good point we have. We are in 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 4: New York where there have been lots of heat warnings 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 4: and we have gotten a lot of encouragement to temper 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 4: the coolness of our at home us. 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, both for our grids and also for the data centers. 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: We don't want to stop the AI companies from doing 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: their their the important work of building chatbots. Anyway, we'll 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: have Noriine Malik, energy reporter with Bloomberg taking with us 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: to take a deep dive into the state of the 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: world energy grids and why Combo of Heat and the 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: AI boom are putting them under strain exactly. 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 4: And another thing that I should say about this weather 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 4: is it's really hard to get out and enjoy the 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 4: summer when it is this hot. And as a matter 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 4: of fact, this is not an isolated issue that we're 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 4: having in this country. Apparently here in the US we 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 4: have a fun deficit. 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: That's right, Sacy Fund traders on Wall Street have been, 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: you know, ringing the alarm bells. The fun markets are scarcity. Yeah, 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: there's not enough fun in the world. We're getting more expensive. 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 2: Sorry for all the Wall Street metaphors, We're legally required 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: to do that. But in any case, we have Bloomberg 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: reporter Ben Steverman here to talk about why basically, all 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: of the fun things that one might want to do 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 2: in the summer, go on a trip, go to the beach, 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: send your kid to camp, they're all getting harder and 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: more expensive. 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: It is a bonafide fun shortage. 34 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 4: Yes, it is fun, it's not for everybody. Can you 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 4: afford fun? 36 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 5: Max? 37 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 4: It has been very hot here in New York. 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: It's hot now, it's hot now. 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 4: It's been hot like over the fourth of July. I 40 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 4: was invited to a barbecue. It got canceled for heat, 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 4: which has never happened. 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: Everything is getting canceled for weather. Staysy even for a 43 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: brief moment. Now, I was out last week. You and 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: brad Stone were doing the lord's work here. Yeah, everybody's 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 2: even the Great American State Fair was briefly I know 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 2: it sounded like. 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 4: It got pretty dramatic. Here's some tape. It sounds like 48 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 4: a little more like War of the World's than a 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 4: heat related to evacuation. But apparently this is where we 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 4: are in this world. But also, of course, this heat 51 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 4: has huge implications beyond just this. We've got so much 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 4: pressure on our grid right now, both the heat wave 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 4: which has been going on all across the US, but 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: also data centers. And this is not just isolated to 55 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 4: the US. This is going on all over the place. 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 4: And we're really lucky to have Noreene Malick, an energy 57 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 4: reporter at Bloomberg who is based in London, dealing with 58 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 4: heat of her own. Noreene, thanks for joining us. 59 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 6: Thanks for having me. Those screams sounded like they were 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 6: watching a World Cup game. I wasn't sure what was happening. 61 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 5: Well, yes, that was. 62 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: The sound of Belgium destroying the Oh. 63 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 4: Noreen, first of all, before we kind of dive into 64 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 4: the particulars of this, talk to us a little bit 65 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 4: about this summer so far and what we've seen in 66 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 4: terms of weather and electricity and some of the challenges 67 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: that are coming up. 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, we've definitely seen some severe heat already on the 69 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 6: East coast, especially and even when it wasn't that hot, 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 6: and I mean like in the eighty degrees low eighty degrees, 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 6: we started to see signs of stress on the grid, 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 6: especially around like northern Virginia, which is part of a 73 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 6: thirteen state grid that stretches from like Chicago roughly to 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 6: like North Carolina, the northern edge of it in up 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 6: to New Jersey and includes Washington, DC. So we've seen 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 6: stress more frequently in the last couple of years, especially 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 6: because you have a lot of data center demand growth there. 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 5: It's growing so quickly. 79 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 6: That it is kind of like keeping an elevated demand 80 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 6: around the clock. And then anytime you get a weather event, 81 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 6: even if it's not that extreme, although in DC and 82 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 6: Virginia it's like a swamp even when it's like eighty 83 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 6: or seventy degrees, so I would. 84 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 5: Consider that extreme. 85 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 6: But you do see a significant ramp up in grid 86 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 6: stress and how this is manifested, as you'll see like 87 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 6: emergency postings on the grid operator saying this transformer which 88 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 6: is meant to like keep voltage like flowing smoothly on 89 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 6: a grid at safe levels. You'll start to put out 90 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 6: alerts saying stress is popping up here and there, and 91 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 6: then and last week during the heat wave, we had 92 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 6: PGM the thirteen state Eastern grid operate in an emergency situation. 93 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 5: It was a low level emergency. 94 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 6: It's meant to put everyone on like the right foot, like, hey, 95 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 6: shore up your supplies, stop maintenance, kind of like everyone 96 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 6: has to be ready to serve demand. And even then 97 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 6: you saw like power prices like jump to like hundreds 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 6: of dollars or thousands of dollars per megawatt hour at 99 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 6: a time when it's not supposed to be that stressed. 100 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 5: These are becoming more frequent. 101 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 2: Noreen, you talked about the kind of how the grid 102 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: operators experience these moments of stress, Like what does it 103 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 2: mean for like a regular power consumer, Like, so I 104 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: assume because I got these messages in New York, you know, 105 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: you get text messages from your utility saying, like, you know, 106 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: turn the air conditioning up to seventy eight degrees, which 107 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: is kind of like that's like a standard thing they 108 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: put out it seems like every summer. But like, what 109 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: what happens for concernsumers both in terms of kind of 110 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: like what they're being asked to do? What they're paying outages, 111 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: they might experience that sort of thing. 112 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean we've definitely seen great operators ask consumers 113 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 6: to voluntarily conserve more in recent years, Like it really 114 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 6: started in California in twenty twenty when they had blackouts. 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 6: After that, Texas in twenty twenty one when they had blackouts, 116 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 6: and on the East Coast like New York and New England, 117 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 6: they'll ask like utilities will say like, hey, there's going 118 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 6: to be high demand just in case, Like power supplies 119 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 6: on the East Coast are constrained and much of the 120 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 6: US are constrained because there's a well higher demand. So 121 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 6: what it means is for consumers is one you have 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 6: to more proactively think about it. There are solutions, like 123 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 6: some thermostats will automatically like smart thermostats will automatically like 124 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 6: pre cool your home so that like when it's like 125 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 6: the middle of the day and there's a lot of 126 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 6: solar for instance, you can take advantage of like cheaper 127 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 6: prices and pre cool your home. So there is like 128 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 6: a behavioral change that is starting to happen, and it 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 6: depends like utility by utility. Happened during the heat wave 130 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 6: was like the grid operator was like, hey, like in 131 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 6: New York State, the grid operator was like supplies or 132 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 6: stri is tight across the entire grid. They put out 133 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 6: an order to utilities, and the utilities will ask skyscrapers 134 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 6: in Manhattan to curtail. Now, these guys when they curtail, 135 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 6: they're getting often paid to like dim the lights and 136 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 6: run fewer elevators. But as a consumer, the programs aren't 137 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 6: as developed. They're starting to increase, but like you're not 138 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 6: really getting compensated, so you're voluntarily doing this. 139 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: But then there you brought up the data center's nourine 140 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: and so how much of this is that, like we 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: are getting our electricity prices jacked up or being told 142 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: to like turn our make our homes too warm because 143 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: like some meta engineer is doing a really awesome prompt 144 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: right now on you know, on clawed or whatever. Like 145 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: do we have any sense of how impactful these data 146 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: centers are? I mean, I know that it's a subject 147 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: of a lot of controversy, and you have the industry 148 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: is pushing in one direction, politician or the other. Can 149 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: you just break it down for us, or at least 150 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: break down the different points of view on this. 151 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, So as you said, this is super controversial and 152 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 6: there's a big battle being thought over even just. 153 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 5: The perception of this. The truth is there is not 154 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 5: much transparency. 155 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 6: What we do now is I've talked to several CEOs 156 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 6: of like utilities and PJM and traders and across the 157 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 6: gamut to understand this. And anytime you PLoP big demand 158 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 6: into any area of the grid, if it's like Virginia 159 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 6: or Ohio, where there's a lot of like people already 160 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 6: living there and the grid may already be tight, then yes, 161 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 6: it's going to overall increase prices. 162 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 5: There's no way around it. 163 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 6: I found it interesting in Europe, like when I went 164 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 6: to like Finland or Lisbon for conferences, it is a 165 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 6: natural assumption or it's taken for granted that they bring 166 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 6: in data centers, your power prices are going to go up. 167 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 5: That's like, yeah, a given. In the US, this is 168 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 5: like a battle ground. 169 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: So does that mean that like we are competing against 170 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 4: tech companies for energy because consumers are never going to 171 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 4: have as much more? But is this what's happening or 172 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 4: like tech companies competing with regular consumers. 173 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 6: It's more like this grid had so much slack on 174 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 6: the system like thirty forty percent spare capacity, and data 175 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 6: center demand growth is the fastest growing demand. That's why 176 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 6: we're like focused on them instead of like EVS and 177 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 6: other electrification that takes like a decade to ramp up. 178 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 6: So much has come online that it's like eating up 179 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 6: all the excess supply, and so now the grid is 180 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 6: under stress in a couple of short years. We're facing 181 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 6: a shortfall next year if things don't turn around in 182 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 6: terms of demand projections. 183 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 5: So on that level, it's not that the. 184 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 6: Household is competing with it, but somebody has to pay 185 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 6: for the new supply, and that's the battle that's being 186 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 6: fought out, is like who's going to pay for the 187 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 6: new power plants needed for data centers because right now 188 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 6: all costs are socialized, like every time you build transmission lines, 189 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 6: and in some states you build power plants depends on 190 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 6: your regulation, then every consumer pays for a split of it. 191 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 6: And so this is like federal regulators are weighing in 192 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 6: and in the next month and a half or so, 193 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 6: we're going to see the grid operators share with the 194 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 6: federal regulators how to split the cost and how to 195 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 6: make sure data centers pay for it. 196 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: I know that utilities tend to be more expensive in 197 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 4: other countries. 198 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: I know you are. 199 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 4: You're in London, and I believe utilities are more expensive there, 200 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 4: and I know in like continental Europe they're more expensive. 201 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 4: Is the US moving more towards a European model where 202 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 4: energy just costs more because more things are kind of 203 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 4: baked into those costs, or is this a totally different situation. 204 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of the same stressors. 205 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 6: The difference with the US is there is plentiful gas, 206 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 6: and it feels like a lot of the push towards 207 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 6: zero carbon energy is like not really being talked about, 208 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 6: even though the hyperscalers say they're really committed to it. 209 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 6: So the US does have a lot of like energy, 210 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 6: it's a matter of like delivering it to the right 211 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 6: places and then maybe like increasingly converting it to electricity. 212 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 6: In Europe they seem to be very committed to zero 213 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 6: carbon energy and trying to like take a more considered 214 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 6: approach to like how do you integrate them these data centers. 215 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 6: They want them for digital sovereignty, for national security, economic reasons, 216 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 6: but they also really want it to be clean energy. 217 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 6: So on that level, like that's where they bifurcate is like, 218 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 6: can you have a US that's very fossil fuel and 219 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 6: increasingly fossil fuel focused, like pursue that strategy and like 220 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 6: keep prices low for everyone versus like Europe, which sees 221 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 6: like its advantage as solar as keeping prices lower plus batteries. 222 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 5: So I think the problem statement is the same across them. 223 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 6: They're moving at different paces, and so what happens in 224 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 6: the US could become lessons learned for Europe. Like people 225 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 6: are moving much faster in the US with the data 226 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 6: center boom, and that's making all the difference right now. 227 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: Should we just become more copathetic about being sweaty? 228 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know. I mean in New York City, 229 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 6: I don't know if you've noticed. I've never paid attention 230 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 6: to the due point, but the due point has been 231 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 6: a big issue in the last few years. 232 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 4: What is the due point? 233 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: It's like a humidity Oh yeah. 234 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 6: It's like it's not just humidity, it's like the temperature 235 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 6: of like when sweat evaporates, is higher. So even if 236 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 6: it's like humid, not and the temperatures aren't that high 237 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 6: at like seventy the high due point makes you feel 238 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 6: like it's ninety. So that has gotten worse, and that 239 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 6: is like a whole other level of suffering we've seen 240 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 6: in New York. In London, I've seen something I haven't 241 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 6: seen anywhere, which is like everyone seems to have a 242 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 6: tiny fan, like an electric fan. 243 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: And just kind of basting with them everywhere. 244 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, on the subway I saw a woman with like 245 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 6: a fan this big on the subway yester or the 246 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 6: tube yesterday. 247 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: As large as as a basketball. 248 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was surprising. I had no idea how she 249 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 6: fitted in her bag. So that might be what our 250 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 6: future looks like, is that everyone just carries like a 251 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 6: personal fan now. So the argument is like, shouldn't the 252 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 6: new users be the ones paying for the new infrastructure 253 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 6: instead of having the average American make that sacrifice of 254 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 6: feeling hot and icky? 255 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 3: Nori Malick, thank you for joining us. 256 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 5: Thanks, thank you, stay cool. 257 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: I was reading the pages of Bloomberg recently. 258 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: I learned some disturbing news. 259 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: We've been talking about all sorts of sort of supply 260 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: constraints and shortage or cres, the oil price, the chip shortage, 261 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: and there is a shortage I think we were all 262 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: aware of, but I had not No one had put 263 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: their finger on. 264 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: Tell me what fun shortage? A shortage of fun? Fun? 265 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: There's not enough fun in this world, at least according 266 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: to our guest Ben Steven. 267 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: Who is reporter here at Bloomberg who joins us. Now, Ben, 268 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 3: how are you? I'm doing great? Ben? 269 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: What is the fun shortage? What are you talking about? 270 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: What I'm talking about? My definition of fun is shared 271 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: experiences with others, So that is a good definition. Vacation 272 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: with family, going out on a Friday night with friends, 273 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: just even small talk with strangers, kind of interacting with 274 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: people in your community. You know, if you talk to 275 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: happiness researchers, the fun that really matters, that changes your 276 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: life is not like scrolling through TikTok. In fact, that 277 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: makes you just more bored and like and more unhappy. 278 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like fun needs to be shared to actually 279 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: be something that's lasting and fun. 280 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 4: Okay, So I was laughing when you said happiness researchers. 281 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 4: But your article has a lot of data in it. 282 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 4: So how do you know there's a happiness shortage? 283 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, if you just ask people about 284 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: their life satisfaction, and there's a World Happiness report that 285 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of academics, like serious people put together every 286 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: day year from more than one hundred and forty countries. 287 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: If you ask people about their happiness in the United States, 288 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: our happiness has gone down steadily for like fifteen years. Oh, 289 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: most of the rest of the world is actually getting 290 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: happier despite the fact that they are online just as 291 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: much as we are in most countries, in a lot 292 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: of countries. 293 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 3: So something's going on there. 294 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: Like when you analyze how Americans are spending their days 295 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: or time, we're interacting face to face a lot less 296 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: than we used to, true, and we're working at screens 297 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: a lot more. I spent a lot of time this year, 298 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, the last couple of months, just sort of 299 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: looking at what are the places and activities that actually 300 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: bring people together and get them out in the world, 301 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: Like how do you get people out of their homes? 302 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: How do you tempt them to like go do things together? 303 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: And I really believe that the supply that's available of 304 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: fun activities, the industries that provide the supply is shrinking 305 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: and the demand is at a peak. 306 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 3: So you go through a lot of this in the story. 307 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: But bars and restaurants on the decline lots of sort 308 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: of outdoorsy things are popular, but also constrained in terms 309 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: of supply. There's more people playing golf than like what 310 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: in the sometime in the last like fifteen or twenty years, 311 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: and yet the number of golf courses is going way down. 312 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: The number of bowling alleys is going down. Like a 313 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: lot of these places where people congregate, where people have fun, 314 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: there are fewer of them, and you know, supply and demand. 315 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: The natural sort of consequences that of that is a 316 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: lot of them are getting more expensive. So you have 317 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: this sense that like if you want to go on vacation, 318 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: you want to send your kids to a summer camp, 319 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: You want to go to a show, you're going to 320 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: be spending. 321 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 3: You want to go on a boat. 322 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 4: Trip even yeah, something is simple, or take your kids 323 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: to whatever, an amusement park. 324 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 325 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: I was surprised to learn there was like there's no 326 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: beachfront hotels being built in America today. A new one 327 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: just opened and it was like such a rare event 328 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: that Bloomberg did a story about where was it, m Florida. 329 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but like it's so hard to build 330 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: new stuff and because of interest rates, well, construction interest 331 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: rates have gone up. There's also just like a lot 332 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: of the places you would want to put this stuff 333 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: is already taken up because maybe a billionaire owns has 334 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: built a mansion there. There's just like we are geographically constrained, 335 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: and then we're also financially constrained in terms of how 336 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: much fun we can provide people. 337 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 4: Our producer Jasmine made an interesting point that it seems 338 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: like fun might be becoming kind of a luxury good. 339 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: And you make this point in your piece that. 340 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: Like a lot of sort of entertainment and diversions are free, 341 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 4: but they tend to be on screens, and then a 342 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 4: lot of the kind of experiential stuff that gets you 343 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 4: out in the world, get you interacting in real life 344 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 4: is costing more. Is there is there something to that? 345 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: Is there like a K shaped fun economy? 346 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: Yes? I think there definitely is. 347 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: Like you have people the top who actually can afford 348 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: six hundred, seven hundred dollars a night for the vacation 349 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: rental that used to cost three hundred and fifty dollars. 350 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: Like I've seen this happen with like the beach locations 351 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: that I used to love, and like they're just so expensive, 352 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: so you have to cut either cut your vacation in 353 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: half or just pay through the nose. But there are 354 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: people in this in America today who can afford that. 355 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: If you look at that's just the amount of wealth 356 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: that's been created in the last decade. There are people 357 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: who can do that. And then the people who get 358 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: squeezed out, I think are first of all lower income 359 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: or even middle class people, but then also young people 360 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: who are at the beginning of their career and then're like, well, 361 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: I can't go out and pay twenty dollars for a cocktail. 362 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: We're going to stay home and like, you know, watch 363 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 1: Netflix or whatever insteap. 364 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: So one thing that I was wondering as I was 365 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: reading this story is kind of like, how do you 366 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: untangle trends. There are fewer bowling alleys, but I'm guessing 367 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 2: there are more gyms. There are fewer bars, but they are. 368 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: There are more coffee shops than there were twenty years ago. 369 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: And so is it that we have like fewer of these, 370 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: you know, like third place type places, or that they're 371 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: just changing. 372 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 3: That's a really good question. 373 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: I think that they to the extent that they're changing, 374 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: they're changing to places that allow less kind of face 375 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: to face and community time together. So talk about coffee shops. 376 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: We've had to shift in coffee shops from like Starbucks, 377 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: which was never a very social place into the social 378 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: it was more social than the drive through coffee shop, 379 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: which is the new trend right now. 380 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: Well, and that's the thing. Even Starbucks. There are tons 381 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: of Starbucks is, but many of them look like what 382 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: you just described. They're basically drive through windows and people 383 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 2: just order on their phone and they don't even interact 384 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: with the person behind the counter. There's more gems, there's 385 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: more fitness centers, but like, are you interacting with that 386 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: many people? 387 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: Some people do, some people don't. 388 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: But nightlife in America per capita is like a third 389 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: the size it was when I was born in the 390 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: late seventies. Like, that's incredible that we've lost that much 391 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: of sort of bars and clubs where people just kind 392 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: of let loose and had fun. 393 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just wonder if we're more talking about drinking. 394 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like drinking is like are we is this 395 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: just like a way of talking about the decline of 396 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: alcohol consumption or something like that, and that wants. 397 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 4: To have a beer and go bowling. I think this 398 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: is what I'm hearing. 399 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: Because a lot of these new places, like a lot 400 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: of what you're describing as sort of like drinking culture, 401 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: and a lot of the new places are like not 402 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: about drinking in one way or another. 403 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: I see what you're saying. 404 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the weird thing about that is that 405 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: drinking is actually like has declined a little bit among 406 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: young people recently, mostly because I think they're doing edibles instead. 407 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: But it's actually at a like we are drinking a lot, 408 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: we're just drinking at home. 409 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: And it's so I've written. 410 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: I've written about that too, Like Americans drink something like 411 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: only fifteen percent of their drinks are actually out in public, 412 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: and if you look at like Spain, it's more than half. 413 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 3: So like people don't. 414 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: Aren't drinking together, They're not getting together for this kind 415 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: of shared experiences. Now, nightlife is an obsession of mine, 416 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: but I was surprised to see sort of the same 417 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: trends when we're talking about golf or country clubs or 418 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: things that I'm not interested in, you know, like pickleball too. 419 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: Like pickleball has gotten so much more popular, and I 420 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: think that's mostly about demand. But then it's crowding out 421 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: basketball and golf, which are also getting more popular. So 422 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: I think as new in this piece as well, is 423 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: I'm saying that I do think that there is evidence 424 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: that people want to get out. Like there's this assumption 425 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: I think among some of the some of the people 426 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: who focus on our loneliness epidemic that is all kind 427 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: of our fault and that we just are stuck on 428 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: our screens. We can't get out anymore, and we don't 429 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: want to go out. We just want to stay there 430 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: because it's safe or something. But like, I'm looking at 431 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: a lot of this data on travels trends and fitness 432 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: trends and things like that, and people do seem to 433 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: want to get out. It's just that when they go 434 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: out or when they look for a vacation spot, they're 435 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: just hitting these constraints in these barriers. 436 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: What is the problem here? So we're having less fun? 437 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 2: Is like? 438 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 4: Why is this bad? What happens when we lose fun? 439 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: There were a couple studies out of Europe that were 440 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: really intriguing to me. They analyze the closure of pubs 441 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: in the UK and Barta Bax in France. 442 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 2: Bartiboc are like I don't a bar coffee shop, but 443 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: you can also like. 444 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 3: Buy cigarette cigarettes there and you can make a bet. 445 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 4: It's like a bodega meets the coffee shop. 446 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 447 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: So in the villages and towns where that those closures 448 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: have happened, right wing voting goes up over time. That's 449 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: just like conservative voting. I mean, like the National Australly Party, 450 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: like the far right gets many more boats in the 451 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: decades after that happens. 452 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 3: And what's going on there? 453 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like you could have different theories, but 454 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: one is like people are just interacting less face to face, 455 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: They feel less connect to their communities. 456 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: They also feel more left behind I think in. 457 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: Those communities, and you kind of wonder is that something 458 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: like that happening in America too. We're kind of shrinking 459 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: into our homes. We feel less connected, we feel more 460 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: left behind, we get angrier. 461 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 3: We're like, do you look at like consumer. 462 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: Sentiment data, which we've talked about on this podcast, like 463 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: people are really kind of mad, not just sad, not 464 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: just unhappy, but like angry. What's going on there? And 465 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I think it might be that we're just like having 466 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: less enjoying. We're enjoying our time together less and we're 467 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: spending less time together. 468 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 4: After I read your article, Ben, I was thinking, and 469 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 4: I was like, what's something that like you can do 470 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 4: in the office that's fun, because I feel like a 471 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 4: lot of us are in offices. And I also I 472 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 4: appreciated the rigor you brought your article, like you know, 473 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 4: and so I started to look around and see, like 474 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 4: what actually measurably increases fun that you can be done 475 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 4: like inside in an office now. And I did discover 476 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: this study from the nineties about bubble wrap, and apparently, yes, 477 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 4: this is like the original. You pop bubble wrap, your 478 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 4: like level of stress and anxiety goes down and your 479 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 4: feeling of well being goes up. So I actually so 480 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 4: that we could increase the joy in this room. 481 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: Actually is like finding opportunities that we did not even know. 482 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 2: You could open like a franchise where people get together 483 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: and instead of drinking or dancing or drinking you know whatever. 484 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: They just pop bubble wrap. 485 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 4: Well, we can see if it works. I mean we 486 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: are we're like together, face to face, there's not a screen, 487 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 4: so we can see if it actually works. 488 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: Ben Ben's face, this is a lot of well, he's 489 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 2: really going to town on the bubble wrap. 490 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: I've never seen anyone hop bubble rap. 491 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: It's such a city, both of you's just very systematically. 492 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: I'm going one like it's like the way I eat 493 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 2: corny you or I find fun is in parks and 494 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: the like. And I know that the parks are more 495 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: crowded and everything, but they're. 496 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 4: Still barely. 497 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 3: There are tons of parks. You can go running, you 498 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 3: can socialize. 499 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 4: I keep hearing you can bring buck wrap to the park. 500 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 3: We're gonna be less depressing. 501 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that, Like, I keep hearing 502 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: horror stories about how crowded the national parks are, but. 503 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: I think that's true for the like the glamour parks 504 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 2: the like you know, Grand Canyon and so on. But 505 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: there are like little smaller state and local parks that 506 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 2: are I don't know my experience anyway, Yeah, I mean 507 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: I think you know, we had a party two weeks 508 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: ago at our apartment, like just hosting a party. 509 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: Are going to a house party, Like there's nothing better 510 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: than that in my opinion. 511 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 4: Well, Ben, thank you for coming to talk about fun 512 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 4: with us. I feel like the discussion got very heavy, 513 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 4: but it was really fun. 514 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: It was it was fun to see you guys, because 515 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: they're because they're we're socializing. 516 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true with bubble Wrap, Max Schafkin. It is 517 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 4: now that time in the show when we have fun 518 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 4: and talk about our underrated stories of the week. 519 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: You know, they don't have to be fun stacy, they 520 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: can be serious. 521 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: But but that's true. 522 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: But this story I found at least a little bit amusing. 523 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: So I don't know if you've been paying attention to 524 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: President Trump's truth social as closely as I do, but 525 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: he has been touting a new effort to lower gas prices. 526 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: We're been talking about gas prices on this show all 527 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 2: the time, even a big issue right now because as 528 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: the sort of tensions and the straight of horror moves 529 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: heat up again and it appears, at least as we're 530 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: recording this on thurs Day, July ninth, that the strait. 531 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: Is once again closed. 532 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 2: But but don't worry, we have a new effort touted 533 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: by the White House and President Trump coming to the rescue. 534 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: Let me just play you a little c Okay, I 535 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 3: saved money. 536 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 6: I had to go back and get my change. 537 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 5: I thought gas was more expensive, but it's not, so 538 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 5: thanks Trump saving me some money. 539 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 2: We're here at the first Freedom Fuel Network gas station 540 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: right here in Philadelphia, leading the charge to lower gas prices. 541 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 4: Three dollars and forty seven cents. That's for our forty 542 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 4: seventh resident, Resident Donald D. 543 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 3: Trump Freedom Fuel station. 544 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 4: What is Freedom Fuel illuminate us? Wait, no one knows 545 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 4: what is this? Is this like a state sponsored gas. 546 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: Station is, according to the White House, a new company 547 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: that is operated a private company that operates twenty five 548 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: gas stations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey that is selling 549 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 2: gas for three dollars and forty seven cents, which they 550 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: say is lower between forty and fifty cents lower than 551 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: the average price in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, 552 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: the state prices. It's a little bit like the Mom 553 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 2: Donnie grocery store thing, but with gas. 554 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 4: All right, we should say that Mom Donnie has talked 555 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 4: about opening state sponsored grocery stores with lower food prices, 556 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: and so this is like some sort of an equipment. 557 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: It's sort of a cross between that and the one 558 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 2: we talked about a couple of weeks ago, that is 559 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 2: in Atlanta. It's sort of a cross between the state 560 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: sponsored grocery store and Trump stakes or like one of 561 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: or Trump cologne, which we have discussed on this show. 562 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: For one of these kind of like Trump branded products. 563 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: This is sort of Trump branded gasoline priced at a 564 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: very trumpy price of three dollars and forty seven cents. 565 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: Because he is the forty seventh president, and it is 566 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: also to sort of I guess say that like the 567 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: Trump administration is doing its part to lower gas prices. 568 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: There are a whole bunch of issues here, one of 569 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: which is these prices, although low, are basically the same 570 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: as the price at Costco right. 571 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: Now in the area. 572 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: And there is BJ's, so there are other gasoline discounters 573 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: that that sell gas for a very similar price. So 574 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: I think it's it's being over sold to some extent. 575 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: There are also some questions about who exactly owns this thing. 576 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: So yeah, so unlike with the state sponsored grocery stores 577 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: in New York or Atlanta, the Trump administration, the White 578 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: House has said there is no there are no subsidies 579 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: going and this is a totally private thing. Does raise 580 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: a question, given that President Trump has a very large 581 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: portfolio of private businesses, many of which have have done 582 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: very well during his presidency, who owns this Who owns. 583 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 4: Do we know what does the company have a name 584 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 4: or do we know fuel? So Freedom It's like Freedom Fuel, Inc. 585 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: It's like Freedom Fries, but for your gasoline. Stacey, what's 586 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: your underrated story? 587 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 4: So my underrated story sounds hyper local, but that I 588 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 4: would argue is of national concern, which is that Earlier 589 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 4: this week in New York, there was a building that 590 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 4: was evacuated in Midtown, right by Grand Central Station, right 591 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 4: in the center of New York, the very dense part 592 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 4: of New York. Apparently they were retrofitting this building. It's 593 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 4: a building that's been there forever, I think since the sixties, 594 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 4: and they were changing it from an office building to 595 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 4: an apartment building. And they started to see it buckling, 596 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 4: and they realized the core of the building was like buckling, 597 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 4: and so they evacuated everyone. They evacuated all these people 598 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 4: around the streets, and there was all this worry that 599 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 4: the building was going to collapse. 600 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 3: I mean, that's really scary. This is like a nightmare. 601 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 3: Fuel a building collapse is not. 602 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 4: To take It's a really dense area. Absolutely here is 603 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 4: where what I think is really interesting. So this is 604 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 4: the was one of the largest ever building conversions and 605 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 4: of course here in New York we see this, but 606 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 4: this is happening all over the country, which is the 607 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 4: need for office space is just decreased a lot and 608 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 4: the need for housing has increased a lot. So one 609 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 4: of the big solutions that was supposed to sort of 610 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 4: solve these two issues was like, well, why don't we 611 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 4: take all these empty office buildings and just turn them 612 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 4: into apartment buildings. And of course it's turned out that 613 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 4: that's a lot harder than you might think, because office 614 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 4: buildings are built like, they have a lot of depth. 615 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 3: And they are weird. 616 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: They're weird the because the point you're making, yes, you 617 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: end up with these bedrooms, with these spectacular you know, 618 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: all glass walls essentially, and the internal rooms, kitchens and 619 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: so on that are basically dark, enveloped in darkness. 620 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 4: And so I think this is potentially an issue here 621 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 4: that like what sounds like perfect solution to these two 622 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 4: really difficult problems. And here in New York to see 623 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 4: empty storefronts all the time, and it's heartbreaking because it's 624 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: the housing's so expensive, there's all this open space. But 625 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 4: I think the conversions are more difficult than people are 626 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 4: letting on. And I did hear from a couple of 627 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 4: kind of real estate people in New York saying that 628 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 4: this is a really bad sign that investors are watching 629 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 4: this and wondering if this means that this solution, which 630 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 4: seemed pretty perfect, might be in for some trouble. 631 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so here's my pitch for you, Stacy. This data 632 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: center boom, it cannot go on forever. I mean, we 633 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: are living through the most clearly a bubbly moment in AI, 634 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: and one way or another we talked about it with Norren. 635 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: You know, electricity prices, one way or another, we're not 636 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 2: going to need all these data centers, so maybe people 637 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: could live in them. 638 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 4: People could live at the data center in. 639 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: The data will take out all the chips and just 640 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: build housing. 641 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 4: How is this a solution though, because I don't think 642 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 4: they have any windows in the day. 643 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean no, some drawbacks undoubtedly. 644 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 4: It just you know, it's like when they do wear 645 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 4: like convert warehouses into apartments sometimes like they're really awesome 646 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 4: and they really ceilings, but also you're like, this feels 647 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 4: like a warehouse. 648 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: This show is produced by Jasmine JT. Green and Stacy Wong. 649 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: Magnus Hendrickson is our supervising producer, Sam Rogi, Chandels Engineering 650 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: and Dave Purcell fact checks. Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, 651 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: Julia Rubin, Julia Press, and Marie Ling. If you have 652 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: a minute, please rate and review the show. It'll mean 653 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: a lot to us. And if you have a story 654 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: that should be our business, email us at Everybody's at 655 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot net. That's everybody with an ass at Bloomberg 656 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: dot net. Thank you for listening and we will see 657 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: you next week.