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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, October sixteenth, and look,

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Speaker 2: we have a whole new crew tonight. Body is out sick. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: she has a bit of a cold, not COVID, but

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Speaker 2: a hell of a cold. So she's not with us.

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Speaker 2: But Eva Kaplan, our associate producer, is jumping in. I'm

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Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here half always with Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 2: but always.

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Speaker 3: In my heart.

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Speaker 2: And of course Taha, Adam and Sam are jumping in

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Speaker 2: on the back end crew. So listen, we have a

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Speaker 2: lot of headlines to get to guess what they're stacked.

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Speaker 2: So there's been more exerpt from this Virginia Guphrase memoir.

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Speaker 2: Remember she took her own life back in April of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Yeah, twenty twenty five. It's amazing, it's

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Speaker 2: incredible to believe the timeline here. We talked about this

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Speaker 2: a bit last night, but there seems to be some

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Speaker 2: real connection to Prince Andrew and some of the correspondents

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Speaker 2: is interesting at the bare minimum, So more on that

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Speaker 2: to come. Also, we talked about this last night as

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Speaker 2: if we were sensing it. Baby Emmanuel's dad has pled

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Speaker 2: guilty to his murder after he and his wife claimed

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Speaker 2: that he was kidnapped.

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Speaker 3: What a bummer.

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Speaker 2: And also the man charged with the Palisades fire allegedly

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Speaker 2: he started it an uber driver. Forty five years is

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Speaker 2: what he's looking at. So suddenly that sentence went from

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Speaker 2: five years to forty five years.

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Speaker 3: So we'll have more details on that. And also Diddy.

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Speaker 2: We're hearing a lot about Diddy's sentencing. Are we happy

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Speaker 2: with it? Are we unhappy with it? But there are

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Speaker 2: new claims that once he is released, he will be

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Speaker 2: on very close supervision and under a lot of restrictions,

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Speaker 2: So we'll talk about that as well. And also we'll

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Speaker 2: be joined by Belle Shuck. She's a licensed therapist and

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Speaker 2: creator of the Equan Guidance Method, which basically uses horses

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Speaker 2: to help heal trauma and make people's lives better and

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Speaker 2: more calm. Personally, I am ready to jump on a

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Speaker 2: horse even please scare me a little bit so I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping we can work through this because after all these

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Speaker 2: stories and these headlines tonight, I feel like we will

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Speaker 2: all need some We'll all need a little therapy Thursday.

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Speaker 3: So here we are. So Gileen Maxwell, we know where

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Speaker 3: she is.

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Speaker 2: She's currently behind bars in a low security prison, never

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Speaker 2: listening to us. However, she's still trying to get out.

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Speaker 2: And now we're seeing photographs again and again and again

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Speaker 2: of Virginia Dufray, who is.

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Speaker 3: The deceased Epstein.

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Speaker 2: She took her own life back in April, like we

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Speaker 2: just discussed, and there's this infamous photo of her Prince

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Speaker 2: Andrew and then Gelaan Maxwell right behind them, and that's

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Speaker 2: kind of the photo that we've all seen on repeat

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Speaker 2: and again. Does a photo make it scandalous or is

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Speaker 2: it just a photo? Who knows of somebody who may

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Speaker 2: be said, hey, take a photo of me with Prince Andrew.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a little bit of the debate.

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Speaker 2: However, there's new information in the Prince Andrew correspondence that

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Speaker 2: makes it a little questionable. Curious Courtney Armstrong and Lieu

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Speaker 2: of Badi. Where shall we begin?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think we should begin with Virginia Gouffrey and

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Speaker 4: what's coming out? But even before that happy one hundredth show, everybody.

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Speaker 5: That's right, Yes, so this is officially our one episode.

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Speaker 3: Our one hundredth episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's two hundred hours of live content that you

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Speaker 2: guys have listened to and we are so grateful.

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Speaker 4: Yes, seriously, Champagne machine or like a dissco, like disco

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Speaker 4: ball someday.

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Speaker 2: Come on, you are representing our younger versions of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Come on, why are we not dancing on a dance

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Speaker 2: floor right now?

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Speaker 6: You're the glow sticks? Or where are they?

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Speaker 7: These past couple of months, my brain has transformed into

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Speaker 7: a true crime encyclopedia. Take my new party, teck. I

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Speaker 7: go to a room and I'm like, asking me about

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Speaker 7: any case, and I can like.

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Speaker 8: A game.

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Speaker 3: Let's do that game.

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Speaker 2: Hey, listen, if you want to join the conversation eight

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Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime, ask Eva any question about

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Speaker 2: true crime. Let's know the spot, let's know if she

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Speaker 2: in fact is the human encyclopedia.

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Speaker 3: By the way, it's so true two hundred hours. By

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Speaker 3: the way, that's major.

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Speaker 2: So hi Bin, Yeah, I get to work with the

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Speaker 2: greatest humans. It's a real lucky thing to get to

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Speaker 2: be in this like little bubble together.

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Speaker 3: Night after night.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we get to be a part of

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Speaker 2: each other's lives in a ways that can't quite be described.

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Speaker 2: And by the way the community and the listeners and

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Speaker 2: the collins and the talkbacks and the dms like it

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Speaker 2: makes it feel like just a family style meal And

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful.

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Speaker 3: Best way to spend every night, I have to say.

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Speaker 2: So look forward to it like I count the minutes

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Speaker 2: till so yay.

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Speaker 4: And here we are, well, here we also are with

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Speaker 4: Virginia Guffray's upcoming memoir. It's posthumous, as Stephanie has mentioned,

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Speaker 4: and it's called Nobody's Girl.

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Speaker 3: It's coming out this.

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Speaker 4: Month, and new claims of her alleged sexual abuse by

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Speaker 4: Prince Andrew are coming out, and they're coming out in

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Speaker 4: some real vivid detail. She claims that he viewed sex

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Speaker 4: with her as his quote birthright, and she speaks about

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Speaker 4: three separate encounters beginning when she was seventeen, and I'll

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Speaker 4: be honest with you, each more a lurid than the last,

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Speaker 4: and just each more sad. It's just the depravity. If

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Speaker 4: everything alleged just true, the depravity.

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Speaker 2: Is real now It is clear that you know Andrew

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Speaker 2: was guilty of this, right, So there has been a

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Speaker 2: lot of back and forth civilly et cetera. And the

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Speaker 2: thing that we all see is this photo. And I

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Speaker 2: do think that photo says so much. But does it

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'm alone in this, Like I would love what

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Speaker 2: is everybody's opinion on this? It just because you're in

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Speaker 2: a photo with somebody, does that mean that it is

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Speaker 2: a for sure thing that all the other allegations are accurate.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing that I get stuck on is

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Speaker 2: how and why anyone who was in relations with Epstein

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Speaker 2: or had a working relationship with him. Obviously he was

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Speaker 2: a really high falutint financier. He had very high profile friends,

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Speaker 2: so you know, maybe they're like Tier one friends or

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Speaker 2: Tier ten friends rather.

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Speaker 3: Where you're just sort of loose associates.

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Speaker 2: But once you find out that he is a convicted

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Speaker 2: sex offender, what happens after that? Like we know that

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Speaker 2: Prince Andrew was seen in Central Park photographed with him,

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Speaker 2: We know that Prince Andrew was seen and photographed leaving

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Speaker 2: his apartment years later. Now, he would say, and this

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Speaker 2: is really worth noting. Prince Andrew is very clear that

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Speaker 2: he was only seen with Epstein in Central Park and

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Speaker 2: being photographed because they were having a conversation that kind

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Speaker 2: of broke up their friendship. That where Andrew was saying, hey, listen, Epstein,

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Speaker 2: we can't be friends anymore. You have been.

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Speaker 3: Convicted of something sexual.

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Speaker 2: You are a sexual offender, and it would be a

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Speaker 2: bad look for us to hang together the way we

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Speaker 2: once did. So that's what he alleges on camera. This

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Speaker 2: is his words and paraphrasing them obviously, but the gist

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Speaker 2: is the walk through the park photo that we've all seen,

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Speaker 2: or him going into Epstein's apartment, that that was all

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Speaker 2: because he didn't feel like a relationship should end over

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Speaker 2: the phone, it should be in person, and that's why

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Speaker 2: years later they stayed connected.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I just called big Bs on that.

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Speaker 4: Even what we talked about last week or a couple

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Speaker 4: of weeks ago with Duchess former Duchess Sarah Ferguson, Prince

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Speaker 4: Andrew's ex wife. It was in twenty eleven, so years

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Speaker 4: later that at that time Prince Andrew was arranging for

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Speaker 4: Epstein to give Sarah Ferguson that eighteen thousand dollars to

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Speaker 4: help pay off her debts, and then also Sarah Ferguson

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Speaker 4: had those emails, the totally contradectory one saying he was

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Speaker 4: a steadfast, generous and supreme friend, and then also saying

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Speaker 4: that being involved with him was a gigantic era of judgment,

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Speaker 4: both of them really in the same breath almost.

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Speaker 7: Twenty eleven. In twenty eleven, Andrew sent Epstein an email

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Speaker 7: after the photo of him in Virginia was published. He

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Speaker 7: sent Epstein an email allegedly saying, I'm just as concerned

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Speaker 7: for you, don't worry about me. It was seeing we

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Speaker 7: are in this together and have to rise above it.

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Speaker 7: Otherwise keeping close touch and will play some more sous.

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Speaker 2: This is a quote some more soon who's playing as

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Speaker 2: adult men? Nobody plays, and nobody plays. And if I'm

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Speaker 2: remembering correctly, Eva, you're so right. What you're saying is

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Speaker 2: so accurate that he was basically saying, Prince Andrew to Epstein,

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Speaker 2: don't worry about me.

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Speaker 3: I'm more worried about you.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like there were a bunch of exclamation

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Speaker 2: points after that.

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Speaker 3: It was like, I'm less worried about you than I

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Speaker 3: am for me.

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Speaker 2: Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point for what.

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Speaker 2: I have a thing for exclamation points generally speaking in

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Speaker 2: any writing. FYI, I just think it's like it says

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Speaker 2: a lot right. Why are you yelling at me? Four times?

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Speaker 2: Andrew had four exclamation points after that statement. Why are

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Speaker 2: they playing together anytime soon?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 4: Sounds like those guys are real supreme pals, just palin

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Speaker 4: around all day long. Listen, this is true crime tonight,

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Speaker 4: and we are thrilled to be palain around with you.

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Speaker 4: We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am here with

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Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidecker, and producer Tah is here. Boddie Movin is

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Speaker 4: out with just a cold. She is resting, and we

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Speaker 4: are also here with producer Ava and of course Sam

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Speaker 4: and Adam keeping things under control in the control room.

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Speaker 3: We'd love to hear from you eighty today three one Crime.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about Virginia Dufray and specifically her connections. I

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Speaker 4: guess we'll call them alleged. They are alleged connections with

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Speaker 4: Prince Andrew. Here's something back to your earlier question, Stephanie

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Speaker 4: regarding the photo. Here's Virginia's own words. And keep in

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Speaker 4: mind she was a teenager. This is the perspective of

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Speaker 4: hers teenager.

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Speaker 6: Correct.

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Speaker 4: My mom would never forgive me if I met someone

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Speaker 4: as famous as Prince Andrew and didn't pose for a picture.

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Speaker 4: I ran to get a Kodak fun saver from my room,

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Speaker 4: then returned and handed it to Epstein. I remember the

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Speaker 4: Prince putting his armor on my waist as Maxwell Grinn

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Speaker 4: beside me.

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Speaker 3: Epstein snapped the photo.

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Speaker 7: Oh, it just makes me so sad because it's like

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Speaker 7: she's just an innocent teenager child, still kind of caught

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Speaker 7: in the glamour of this whole world. To me, this

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Speaker 7: quote just show It's just heartbreaking because it just shows

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Speaker 7: how young and impressionable she really was at the time.

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Speaker 2: By the way, if I was in Buckingham Palace tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: and I've lived one hundred and fifty lives, by the way,

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Speaker 2: even still, I'd be like, what are you taking me

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Speaker 2: into the Buckingham Palace?

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Speaker 3: I could take a photo here?

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Speaker 2: What with a prince with I mean, I literally think

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Speaker 2: about Princess soon to be Queen Kate.

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Speaker 3: All the time. I'm really obsessed with.

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Speaker 2: Meghan Markle, and I want Carrie and Will to be

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Speaker 2: reunited at last, So I'm just I am the person

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Speaker 2: that would go to Buckingham Palace, invited in and be like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, can I get a photograph? It would

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Speaker 2: be my mother will kill me if I don't come

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Speaker 2: home with a picture with you.

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Speaker 3: So you can see that now.

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Speaker 2: The other side to that, Devil's advocate, What if it's

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Speaker 2: just that somebody who's just a crazed fan who happens

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Speaker 2: to be there.

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Speaker 3: Maybe Prince Andrew has no.

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Speaker 2: Idea who she is and just like yeah, says hi

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Speaker 2: and poses for a photo like many not only royals,

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Speaker 2: but celebrities do. If the person in the photo is

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Speaker 2: a weirdo, is that your problem?

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Speaker 4: Were that to be the case, Stephanie, why would he

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Speaker 4: be saying we're in this together now?

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Speaker 9: Well?

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Speaker 5: So didn't there's also something where he I think both

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Speaker 5: Andrew and Maxwell claimed the photo.

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Speaker 6: Was doctored so correct.

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Speaker 5: Why would they claim that if it's just an innocent

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Speaker 5: photo of someone just taking a picture person.

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Speaker 6: So I don't know that. It seems like there's a few.

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Speaker 3: What happens in the dar comes out in the light.

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Speaker 3: I just know this to be true.

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Speaker 2: I really believe that whatever files we are meant to receive,

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Speaker 2: we will and I think it's going to be soon.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, it's like happening real time. Even

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Speaker 2: the reason why we're talking about this is not to

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Speaker 2: belabor it a I'm like confused and really warped up

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Speaker 2: in my own head. I've gotten the greatest dms, by

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Speaker 2: the way, from all sides of this, so keep them

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Speaker 2: come in.

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Speaker 3: Some of them.

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Speaker 2: Really I get stumped. In fact, I want to read some.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Right now in Arizona real time,

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Speaker 2: a lawsuit against Speaker of the House Mike Johnson is

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Speaker 2: happening because they would like this Republican congresswoman to be

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Speaker 2: finally sworn in so that she could be the two

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Speaker 2: hundred and eighteenth signature a Democrat. Well, she's a Democrat,

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Speaker 2: but regardless, she's a woman who's been elected. She should

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Speaker 2: be sworn in, regardless of her status, regardless of her gender,

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Speaker 2: to be sworn in. But she has outwardly said she

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Speaker 2: will in fact be the last signature needed to have

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Speaker 2: the files released.

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Speaker 3: What is the hold up?

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Speaker 2: And then I start reading things about the former Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister of Israel, like what is happening here that we're

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Speaker 2: just not getting the full scoop on and honestly, I

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Speaker 2: have no idea, but it does kind of scare me

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Speaker 2: at the core a little bit. So if anybody has

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Speaker 2: any big insight any side where it is is we

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Speaker 2: have no agenda.

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Speaker 3: We just want to survive it.

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Speaker 2: Can you please tell me how to stop sex trafficking globally?

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Speaker 2: And if you have any advice or insight on any

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Speaker 2: side of this story, we want to hear it eighted

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Speaker 2: eight to three one crime or hit us up in

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Speaker 2: our socials. And you know we love a talkback, so

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Speaker 2: download the iHeartRadio app for free, top right hand corner,

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Speaker 2: little small microphone icon.

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Speaker 3: Just push it. Leave a Messa, you're on the show

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Speaker 3: and you can talk to Ava directly.

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Speaker 4: That's right, and keeping here we have a lot more

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Speaker 4: after the commercial break.

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Speaker 3: We have surprising updates about.

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Speaker 4: Diddy as well as the accused Palisades artsmist, that and more.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: my Courtney Armstrong. I listen Partner in Crime and then

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Speaker 2: some or on crime or unpacking crime. Body is outsick tonight.

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Speaker 2: She's just not feeling well, doesn't have COVID, doesn't have pneumonia,

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Speaker 2: nothing serious, but just a good old cold. So we

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Speaker 2: have given her the night off. But we have Taha

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Speaker 2: jumping in and Ava jumping in, and of course Sim

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Speaker 2: and Adam are here, so we want to hear from

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Speaker 2: you though. Eight at eight three one crime. A little

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Speaker 2: bit about Epstein. I mean, listen, it's like under the

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Speaker 2: surface and a side surface, but real time there seems

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Speaker 2: to be litigation against Speaker of the House Mike Johnson,

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Speaker 2: and that's interesting. I don't know what to make of it,

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Speaker 2: so if you have an opinion, please share it. And also,

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Speaker 2: just last night we were talking about the most piteous

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Speaker 2: of all cases, Baby Emmanuel.

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Speaker 3: We've all been really where is baby Emmanuel's justice? What

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Speaker 3: is happening?

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Speaker 2: You know, Mom and Dad they had a very differing story.

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Speaker 2: We even had talked back last night inquiring what's the

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Speaker 2: situation there? And lo and behold today Dad has confessed

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Speaker 2: that he was a part of a murder plan. And

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Speaker 2: even though he said his beloved baby Emmanuel was kidnapped,

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Speaker 2: in fact was he was killed and it's guilty.

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Speaker 3: So what do we make of that? Courtneys?

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Speaker 6: It's crazy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think Taha you were going to fill

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Speaker 3: us in, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean well, I was saying to you guys earlier,

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Speaker 5: it's like either we are like psychic or we have

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Speaker 5: some sort of power to manifest things to happen, because

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Speaker 5: literally that talkback was saying, what's going on just today?

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Speaker 5: This is what happened. So this is all after we

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Speaker 5: got to talk back. But Jake Harrow pled guilty to

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Speaker 5: murdering his son Emmanuel Horror after falsely reporting the child

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Speaker 5: had been kidnapped. So if you remember, this was back

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Speaker 5: in August and Jake and Rebecca harrw they told authorities

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Speaker 5: that their son Emmanuel had been abducted from a parking lot.

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Speaker 5: It prompted a large scale search with an investigation. But

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Speaker 5: from the start there were like so many inconsistencies in

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Speaker 5: their stories. Like the police everyone was like, something is

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Speaker 5: not right, Like it just didn't feel something was felt

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Speaker 5: that right.

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Speaker 2: We thought it was like it's every parent's worst nightmare,

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Speaker 2: and somewhere we were all sort of like, hmm, that's

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Speaker 2: totally land I don't know why, though. It wasn't as

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Speaker 2: though what they said that they were saying wasn't correct

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Speaker 2: or it.

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Speaker 4: Wasn't was there actually were. There were some pretty immediate inconsistencies.

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Speaker 4: And this is going back a little while ago, but

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Speaker 4: I believe Mom said that she was one place, it

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Speaker 4: was quickly proven that she was not there, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And it snowballs.

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Speaker 4: So the inconsistencies came out pretty hot and heavy from

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Speaker 4: the beginning.

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Speaker 2: And I don't remember there was well, go ahead, sorry,

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Speaker 2: I was just going to say they turned on each other, well.

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Speaker 5: That they turned in each other, but I don't if

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Speaker 5: you remember back, there was something like even Ave and

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Speaker 5: I both like, this is so unusual. The woman was

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Speaker 5: looking for her son but sort of like parted some

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Speaker 5: bushes and it was just this really just her movement

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Speaker 5: and it felt very performative.

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Speaker 3: Wait was it what the bushes? I didn't get that.

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Speaker 5: So she was they were showing news footage of the mother,

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Speaker 5: Rebecca Horror, looking for her son, and so she's really

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Speaker 5: like on one of the news channels, like going through

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Speaker 5: some bushes and partying like nope, not in there, like

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Speaker 5: like as just she was like spooking through them and

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Speaker 5: looking around or like climbing over a fence.

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Speaker 6: No, nothing, that is something. I just felt like.

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Speaker 3: This is also felt performative.

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Speaker 6: Completely it felt like a whole act.

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Speaker 4: So and for anyone who's ever lost their child in

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Speaker 4: a department store or even a grocery store, for one

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Speaker 4: literal minute.

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Speaker 3: You are grave.

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Speaker 4: I can imagine you're not calmly part in the bush. So, yeah,

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Speaker 4: everything was off about them from the big Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, just to wrap things up with that one. So

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Speaker 5: he pled guilty, and he's guilty of second degree murder,

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Speaker 5: filing a false report, and assaulting a child. His sentence

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Speaker 5: his schedule for November third, So we're going to follow

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Speaker 5: that one and keep everyone up to speed with what's

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Speaker 5: going on with that. And this comes out two months

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Speaker 5: after he was last seen alive on August fifth, And

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Speaker 5: this is the part that's so traject to me. They're

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Speaker 5: still searching for his remains, which I can't wrap my

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Speaker 5: head around that, Like, if he's hold everyone, he's done it,

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Speaker 5: why wouldn't you say where the body is?

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Speaker 6: I don't let your.

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Speaker 2: Child have some peace and rest and be, you know,

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Speaker 2: in heaven.

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Speaker 3: It is crazy talk. By the way, let's.

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Speaker 2: Just like, qu we unpack this for two more seconds.

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Speaker 2: I know you probably had to go to a mid segment.

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Speaker 2: By the way, you're listening to true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 2: We're so glad you're here. I'm Steph with Courtney, Hey,

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Speaker 2: Taha Eva, Sam and Adam. You had a full house tonight.

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Speaker 2: Body is sick, so we're wishing her well and we're

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Speaker 2: talking about baby Manuel. And Dad has proven to be

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Speaker 2: dishonest and he's now pled guilty to charges of not

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Speaker 2: only lying to authorities, but you know, killing his son.

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Speaker 3: What does that leave for mom?

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Speaker 2: So essentially Mom and Dad were arrested at the same time.

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Speaker 2: There had been big calls to all of our attention

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Speaker 2: for help. We needed to help find baby am Manuel.

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Speaker 2: By the way, even as recent as last night, we

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Speaker 2: were all worrying where is he? We still don't know

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Speaker 2: because Dad is being tight lipped about it, but they do.

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Speaker 3: What do we make of this?

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Speaker 2: You know, at what point you have wasted so many

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Speaker 2: resources for law enforcement?

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Speaker 3: You know how exhausting that is. You're looking for baby

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Speaker 3: a manual.

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Speaker 2: We've all been thinking about it collectively, eag in law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: They are looking for a child that is taxing, that

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Speaker 2: is a twenty four hour day on the job. But

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Speaker 2: this is not a clock in scenario. And now we

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Speaker 2: find out that they've been lied to this entire time,

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Speaker 2: and where's.

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Speaker 7: Mind in this scenario is well, it's just so frustrating

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Speaker 7: because Jake had a prior conviction from twenty eighteen. How

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Speaker 7: are willfully neglecting and abusing their other daughter who now

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Speaker 7: suffer permanent disabilities from that incident and you can't even

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Speaker 7: get out of the bed?

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Speaker 3: Am I remembering?

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Speaker 9: Am I right?

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Speaker 3: Am I remembering this correctly?

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Speaker 2: She is from the injuries sustained by dad who went

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Speaker 2: on to fall in love again and have another child.

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Speaker 2: And suddenly Baby am Manuel is gone.

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Speaker 6: Which is horrible.

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Speaker 5: And if anyone wants to that second follow up with that,

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Speaker 5: that child referring to the two year old has since

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Speaker 5: been removed from their custody, so that child's.

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Speaker 2: Exaggerating it anyway, This is as I as I remember it.

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Speaker 2: Can we just confirm whatever injuries? But I don't mean

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Speaker 2: to exaggerate, But I remember thinking this is wild. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this guy's not getting the message.

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Speaker 5: No, not clearly he's not. But I mean hopefully the

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Speaker 5: message will be received at this point in time and

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Speaker 5: he'll pay for what he's done. But yeah, it's just horrific.

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Speaker 5: Anything with children just really it's hard to even talk

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Speaker 5: about and it's so disturbing. But in this case where

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Speaker 5: now this is a second child that he has, just

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Speaker 5: one is permanently damaged, and now one has lost their life.

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Speaker 5: This man is just I don't know. Just put him

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Speaker 5: in jail, throw the book away.

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Speaker 3: Put him in jail, go away to keep.

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Speaker 2: By the way, if this guy gets immunity, do we

439
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: have any inclination that this guy turning on mom?

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Speaker 3: Because let's be honest. Let's be honest.

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Speaker 2: We've made a lot of We've made a lot of

442
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: content on the topic. Queeney, You and I have done

443
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 2: fifty two episodes of Crazy in Love where it starts

444
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: in love and it ends tragically. So Mom and dad

445
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: they're a pretty united front, right, regardless of whether or

446
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: not their story.

447
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: Made any sense. They had the same story.

448
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 2: And now Dad has thrown Mom under the bus, so

449
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: she's getting caught, likely of, you know, off guard. Does

450
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: he get immunity or in any way a preferational treatment

451
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: for coming clean and disclosing what he is saying happened?

452
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, after Yeah, he's first child.

453
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't believe that has been those details have

454
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 4: been released. We do know that Jake Harrow is sent

455
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 4: his sentencing is scheduled for November third, and that the mother,

456
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 4: Rebecca Harrow's legal fate is still unclear. She is in

457
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 4: custody and her bail said it one million dollars. And

458
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: I just really hope for this father, Jake Harrow, that

459
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 4: saying may you reap, but your so just really comes

460
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: to bear for him every single day for the rest

461
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 4: of his life. So that is my wish for him

462
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: moving on.

463
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: H Yeah, it's very sad.

464
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, it is.

465
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: I get into a bar fight right now, honestly so

466
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: awful that it's sickening.

467
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

468
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do we move on?

469
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 2: When do we get like we need some happy news?

470
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: Is everything happy?

471
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 4: I'm not bringing you happy news, but I want everyone

472
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 4: in the control room to start thinking of some talkbacks

473
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 4: real quick. But this is news and it's important. Jonathan rendernicked.

474
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: He is now facing up to forty five years and

475
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 4: that would be in federal prison. And he is the

476
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 4: man who has been indicted by a grand jury on

477
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 4: with two additional felony charges excuse me, connected to the

478
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 4: deadly twenty twenty five Palisades fire, which, as we've been

479
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 4: talking about, killed twelve people, earned more than twenty thousand

480
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 4: acres and destroyed thousands and thousands of homes and has.

481
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: Displaced multitudes of people.

482
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: So the new update is the two charges are arson

483
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 4: affecting property that were used in interstate commerce as well

484
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 4: as Timber set afire.

485
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: And this is important.

486
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 7: Charge, Timber set a fire. This is the first time hearing.

487
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: Of that news to me, the same same, yeah here,

488
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: here is that legal?

489
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 9: Even?

490
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: What is that? Uh?

491
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 4: Well, it's a new charge against him, So I would say, no,

492
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 4: you do not, Stephanie. If you were wondering if in

493
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 4: any capacity you should be setting Timber a fire, answer snow,

494
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 4: answer is it would be illegal.

495
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: It would be illegal.

496
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 4: But these new charges do raise the maximum possible sentence

497
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 4: from twenty years now to forty five years in federal prison.

498
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:37,959
Speaker 6: Still not enough in my opinion.

499
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: How murder though, Like it's manslaughter that was all people's

500
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: lives are lost. And I'm going to go on a

501
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: limb here and just believe in my heart that this person,

502
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: if in fact, this very ordinary Uber driver who because

503
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: the Uber driver that I had last night was anything

504
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: but this guy was an ordinary guy down on his luck,

505
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 2: and if in fact he set a fire that killed

506
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: twelve people, and you know, trashed and ruined so many

507
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: people's lives. Taking this stuff aside just in the pure

508
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: twelve people's lives. Yeah, how was even forty five years?

509
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 6: And not right? It seems like wouldn't that be removing any.

510
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 2: Of and again keeping this not personal like any of

511
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: the lives, the homes, the memories, the start over, the

512
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: financial gut that that is, that.

513
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 3: Is just stuff, right, that is the end.

514
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: Sure, But like twelve people's lives were lost, what is

515
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: that equal in terms of forty five years?

516
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: It doesn't even make any sense. I don't know.

517
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 4: That's something Maybe we even have our expert, our Arson

518
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: expert at Nordskog back to discuss because I also don't

519
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 4: understand how.

520
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: I have to believe in my heart that that was

521
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: not the intention that uber driver was going to light

522
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: a fire to some timber.

523
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 7: And didn't have guys that Arson is one of like

524
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 7: the few crimes where intent doesn't matter, and he did say,

525
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 7: whatever the impact is, that's what you're charge for. So

526
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 7: the fact that these new federal charges were added are

527
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 7: maybe making me think they're doing this in chunks, even

528
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 7: where it's like they're starting with these charges and maybe

529
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 7: they're continually adding some because if that's true about Arson,

530
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 7: it would make sense that he would be on the

531
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 7: under the gun for manslaughter.

532
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: Well you're exactly right, Ava, And I was kicking myself

533
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: after we had finished that show for not asking about

534
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: the attempted murder or the murder charges that we had

535
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 4: all talked about when he said intent doesn't matter, which

536
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 4: was so interesting. Light the match, whatever happens, you are

537
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: culpable for, so maybe there will.

538
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: Be more charges, right, Like, that's just like a really

539
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: weird line that we know we can go around on

540
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: a loop on esoterically, but like the light that starts

541
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: the match that kills twelve people. And again, I know

542
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: I'm in this story a little too much and a

543
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: little too close to it, so like take this stuff

544
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: out of it, Like all the seven thousand homes and

545
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: lives that are impacted in ways that I honestly can't

546
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: stress are so intense.

547
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: But like twelve people.

548
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: Died, died, Yeah, that is wild beyond measure, like the

549
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: words I want to say right now or like tip

550
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: of my tongue, and I'm afraid I'll get kicked out

551
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: for it, so I'm bracing it.

552
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: But all that to be said.

553
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: If he didn't mean to and it happened, that's manslaughter, right,

554
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: isn't that what happens is an accident and.

555
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: Volunt stop sign.

556
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 4: I don't know that is what happens often happens with

557
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 4: with car accidents or what you're describing, correct, But in

558
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 4: this case, there have been no intentionally.

559
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: If accurate started the fire, maybe in a smaller location

560
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: with less impacts, maybe not considering hey, it smolders below

561
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: the surface for six days, seven days and then becomes

562
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: the Palisades fire, which crushed a whole community literally and

563
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: kill to old people most significantly. So that's a new one.

564
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: That's a new one, and a real one. I just

565
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: also worry that it also it sort of takes the

566
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: heat off of what was a system around it, maybe

567
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: from a government perspective that was also.

568
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: Playing a hand.

569
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: And once we call it a crime or a criminal act,

570
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: does that change things?

571
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 3: I don't know the answer.

572
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 4: Well, as our experts said, hopefully it will be investigated

573
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: as it should, just largely and independently.

574
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: And listen, we've been talking a lot about Epstein. We've

575
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: been talking also maybe a manual. Some of this stuff

576
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: is tough, to hear. So if you have something positive

577
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: that you want to jump in and share with us,

578
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: we want to hear it. Eight eight eight three one

579
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: crime or leave us a talk back or hit us

580
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: up in our socials. But first let's go to our caller. Hi,

581
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Joe.

582
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: How are you, hey, Joe?

583
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 6: Can you hear us?

584
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 10: Hey?

585
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 8: Joe? Yeah?

586
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, can you hear me?

587
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 8: Hi?

588
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 6: Yes? How you doing?

589
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: We're so happy you're here? Thanks for calling.

590
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 9: I'm okay. What I want to talk about quickly if

591
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 9: I can. I'm part of the whole boy Scout sex

592
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 9: abuse case that's going on, how soup. I was assaulted

593
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 9: by my scout master when I was thirteen oh and

594
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 9: I had a conversation with a defense at one point

595
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 9: and I was saying, you know, is this evil? Are

596
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 9: these people evil? And he were saying that no, there's

597
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 9: no such thing as evil, and just people make the

598
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 9: wrong choices. I don't get that. What I think, and

599
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 9: I think it's the case would be all excellent thing too,

600
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 9: the sexual desire that is run am up. It's like

601
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 9: this hyper testosterone. How could a forty year old guy

602
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 9: assault a thirteen year old kid with any sense of life,

603
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 9: not beginning to understand the effect that that's going to

604
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 9: have on the.

605
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: Kids for the rest of their lives.

606
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, in all these different ways. I mean, you know,

607
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 9: you work, it's hard to discern all the different things

608
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 9: that it's caused. But mhm, it's just the temporary pleasure

609
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 9: of this fucking pardon my language, sorry, okay, Uh, it's

610
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 9: just a temporary pleasure that the person is getting. And what.

611
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: And what do you think of it, Joe, because if

612
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: you were also at the hands and I'm so sorry,

613
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: by the way, thank you for sharing. And we're so

614
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: sorry to hear this. It's really tough. It's tough on boys,

615
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: it's tough on young girls. There's no one to talk to.

616
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: So here are these ladies that they're talking out, but

617
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: no one's really listening.

618
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 9: Joe.

619
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 3: Do you think that's going to change.

620
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 9: It's hard to say because it's such a man dominated world,

621
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 9: you know. And yeah, people are and you know, there

622
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 9: there's so many they're they're in denial about it, like

623
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 9: how it affects people. And I get the I mean,

624
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 9: there's a correlation between the fact that they're doing it

625
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 9: with girls and the fact that they're doing it with boys. Yeah,

626
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 9: it's completely a power over thing. But it's also the

627
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 9: thickness where you know, you know, they're just looking for

628
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 9: their own sexual pleasure and once it's gone, it's done

629
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 9: and for them, and then the ramifications of it, like

630
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 9: a kid, thirteen year old kids, what was that? You know?

631
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 9: I can remember I tried to talk to the guy

632
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 9: about it and he was like, you're not sing it

633
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 9: never happened.

634
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 3: You know, you felt denied. Yeah, you felt a night.

635
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 9: Well, no, you don't have to be sorry. I mean,

636
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 9: it's just part.

637
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 3: Of what's your advice?

638
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice for anyone who's experiencing that,

639
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: who's probably listening right now, and Joe, you are so

640
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: not alone.

641
00:34:59,160 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: What's your advice?

642
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 9: It was an interesting situation that happened. I was probably

643
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 9: about seventeen and I met the guy. I mean, this

644
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 9: was a respected person in the community, you know, and

645
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 9: these predators are so good at what they do. My

646
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 9: family was chaotic, so he knew that he could pick

647
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 9: on me and it wouldn't get back to my parents

648
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 9: because you know, as a kid, I'm looking for any

649
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 9: kind of adult thing that I can. So there was

650
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 9: a situation where I met the guy uptown and where

651
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 9: I grew up, and I was right across from the

652
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 9: police station and I asked the guy. I said, what happened?

653
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 9: And he said, nah, they have it. And I'm looking

654
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 9: over at the police station. And if I only had

655
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 9: the you know, because it's complicated because there was a

656
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 9: much love guy. I love the guy. He's a great master.

657
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 9: We love scouting. Yeah, but the mystery of what happened

658
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 9: and why it happened is so confounding that I would

659
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 9: just say. The advice is that if somebody touches you

660
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 9: and properly get help, find somebody and have the courage

661
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 9: to fight back. You know, but it you know, thirteen

662
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 9: year old kid, what's the thirteen year old kid going

663
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 9: to do? Well?

664
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 4: Joe, thank you so much for the call for the

665
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 4: information and also for the advice of if anything like

666
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 4: this is happening to you, anything you know, sexually, physically,

667
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 4: verbally abusive and you are underage, go to any trusted

668
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 4: adult you can find and let them let them know

669
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: because he is out there. But you do need to

670
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 4: share with someone because as a minor there is little

671
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 4: to do. So again, thank you again Joe, Joe for

672
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 4: sharing that.

673
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.

674
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 6: That's Joe.

675
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: Joe, You're so important. Thank you for sharing number one.

676
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: That took a lot of courage just to even call

677
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: into this right now during a really controversial topic.

678
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: To have a.

679
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: Man speak up to say how difficult it is to

680
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: speak up against a bigger system is so important.

681
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: So thank you, Joe.

682
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: I know just in the sound of your voice, we've

683
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: all been affected and you've helped so many. And here's

684
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: the one thing that every abuser wants you to hear.

685
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: Just be real quiet, don't talk, and Joe, you are

686
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 2: showing the difference there.

687
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: So thank you. Absolutely.

688
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 4: I did want to give an update on the Florida teen.

689
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 4: You may remember that we spoke about it was back

690
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 4: in September. He was seventeen year old reported being shot

691
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 4: and excuse me, law enforcement responded to what appeared to

692
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 4: be a genuine crime scene. Has happened in Marion County, Florida. Well,

693
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 4: he now has been arrested for staging his own abduction

694
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: and that at the time triggered a statewide amber alert.

695
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 4: So he fabricated this entire incident and unbelievable. He is

696
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: a minor. But even after he was found, this teen

697
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 4: attempted to continue the ruse. Yeah, with this gunshot to

698
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 4: his leg, he shattered his own femur, But detectives later

699
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 4: learned he previously mentioned running away from home, which seemed

700
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 4: a little suspicious to them, and his laptop revealed he

701
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 4: had served how to collect your own blood without pain

702
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 4: and just very odd things in the search. So, in

703
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 4: any case, he's been arrested. The charges are I'm presenting

704
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: false evidence shooting into a conveyance, which along with setting

705
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: timber alight, I did not know shooting into a conveyance

706
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 4: was a charge, and also making a false report of

707
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 4: a crime, as well as possession of a firearm. So

708
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: we'll keep you updated as things move along. This is

709
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 4: true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Stephanie Lydecker.

710
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 4: Body is out this evening and we were just updating

711
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 4: on a Florida teen who staged his own kidnapping and

712
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 4: now we are going to move on to ditty Stephanie.

713
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: So did he and listen, it is very controversial. Has

714
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: he gotten in not time? Has he not gotten he's

715
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: maybe gotten a free lat a free road. Is he

716
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: going to serve enough time behind bars? Personally? I think

717
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: it's probably fairly somewhere in the middle. We're looking at

718
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 2: fifty months. Many are saying he'll be out in the year.

719
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: There's no real way of knowing, but there is some

720
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: now new developments that would suggest even when he is released,

721
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: he'll be under real supervision. It's not just a walk away.

722
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: He has to really be checking in. You know, it's

723
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: not really house arrest, but it's house arrest esque and

724
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: that is you know, probably a little problematic, but to

725
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 2: me it seems appropriate to I see you leaning in.

726
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: What do you think?

727
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 5: No, I definitely think it's appropriate and it should be

728
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 5: the case with him.

729
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 8: But you know, I.

730
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 5: Haven't followed all the details that are going on with it.

731
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 5: But if it's once he's released and this is what

732
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 5: he has to continue doing, it's the least that should happen.

733
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 6: I mean, they need to.

734
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 5: I just I just think they need he needs supervision

735
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 5: constantly because he was so out of control.

736
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 6: And yeah, that's the end.

737
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: And there's a couple of things that are worth noting.

738
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 2: So behind bars, did he is going through drug rehabilitation?

739
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: He has claimed even in his time in Brooklyn at

740
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: you know, this particular location that he felt was very

741
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: very beneath him that he really got sober and that

742
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: sober life has given him a new lease and he's

743
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: feeling different. And part of his reasoning to going to

744
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 2: the prison that he'll now be transferred to is because

745
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: they have a really good rehabilitation program there as it

746
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: pertains to drugs and we know he was, you know,

747
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 2: according to testimony, doing lots of it, So hopefully that's

748
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: the case.

749
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 3: Hopefully that's monitored after the fact.

750
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 2: This is a guy that has a lot of kids,

751
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: right we know, we saw his children really begging the

752
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: to let him come home to be the father to

753
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,919
Speaker 2: them that they don't have right now. Several of them

754
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: have lost their mother kim Porter who died mysteriously and

755
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 2: you know their parent lists at this point. That's intense.

756
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would assume that there's some level of

757
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: monitoring going on behind posts. And whereas others are saying

758
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: it's differential treatment.

759
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 4: Well for the afterpart, for when he is released, he

760
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 4: even then will be required to participate in outpatient programs

761
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 4: for domestic violence, mental health treatment as well as substance abuse,

762
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 4: and that includes drug testing.

763
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 3: I think that's a step in the right direction.

764
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 4: That's in addition to reporting regularly to a probation officer

765
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 4: and submitting to searches of his person and property.

766
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 6: I think all of this is acceptable.

767
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 5: But it's only for five years, it seems like, right,

768
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 5: is that what they're saying, it's for five years.

769
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: The only concern would be money talks, right, So is

770
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: this just going to be another example, as we've seen

771
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: did he do before, of him just paying off those

772
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: that are you know.

773
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: The checkpoints.

774
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: He just pays everybody off and they say whatever they

775
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: want him to say, and that's unfortunate. So hopefully that's

776
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: not the case, and there's actually real accountability for the

777
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: sake of his kids, for the sake of anyone in

778
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: his life that is functional.

779
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 3: He they deserve better. He deserves better.

780
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 5: But let's be honest with that kind of money, if

781
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 5: you really wanted to do something various in the next

782
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 5: five years, you could pay someone to It could all

783
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 5: happen behind closed doors.

784
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 6: There are ways around this that I feel if he

785
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 6: really everything with it.

786
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about the revenge for that, you know

787
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: allegedly he will be out for Let's remember this was

788
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: one of those cases that everybody was involved in. Every celebrity,

789
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: you name them, they were somehow going to be on

790
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: the prosecution list against Didty, every girlfriend, every associate, every friend,

791
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: Like the Didty list was very long, and then numbers

792
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: were huge and the names were Huger. Not one single

793
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: person has arrived at the scene, right, So nobody was

794
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: called to the carpet for their association. Nor did anybody

795
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: come to the carpet to defend Diddy, which I'm sure

796
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: he will not forget, so here he is behind it.

797
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 3: Well, let's also not forget that.

798
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 4: If you know it, let's make believe it was the

799
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 4: case that nobody would stand up for Diddy. I have

800
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 4: a hard time imagining his say, his mother, his children

801
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 4: wouldn't have gotten on the stand to defend him. His

802
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 4: defense his counsel chose as a strategy, which lawyers choose,

803
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 4: you know often enough to put up no defense and

804
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 4: just say, okay, send it to the jury.

805
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 3: And do you think Jlo.

806
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: Would not have been helpful? Do you think it would

807
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: not have been helpful to hear from jay Z and

808
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: Beyonce about how great he is. It's impossible to imagine

809
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: that that would not have been helpful, oh man, possible,

810
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: But honestly, Like, here's Justin Bieber showing up and saying

811
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: that he was a joy to work with and that

812
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: all of the videos that we've seen that were wildly weird,

813
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: regardless of what they were, they were just weird.

814
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: Let's just go there. Let's just put him in the

815
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 3: weird category they.

816
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 2: Existed right about the acknowledgment of that, and just say no, no, no,

817
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: Vidy was awesome.

818
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: He was awesome.

819
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: Anyway, We're not going to totally know this, but there

820
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 2: will be more to come. Please, if you've missed any

821
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 2: of the first hour, join us as a podcast right

822
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: after and we'll be right back because we have a

823
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 2: few more talkbacks and we're going to be getting some therapy,

824
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: thank goodness, so stick with us.

825
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight.

826
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

827
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 3: We're talking true crime all the time.

828
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong.

829
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 3: By the way, it's just the two of us.

830
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: Kind of we've kind of gone wild tonight because we

831
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 2: have Taha, we have Adam, we have Sam and by

832
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: the way, body is outsick right now, so we're giving

833
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 2: her all of our get better soon you know, cold

834
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: remedy wishes everybody send them bodies way and in the meantime,

835
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: we're going to get a little therapy because we are

836
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: so excited to have you here, Belle Shook. By the way,

837
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 2: equestrian therapy is something we've been talking about kind of

838
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: internally for.

839
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 3: A while now.

840
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: I'm a tinge afraid of horses, tinge, which is probably

841
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: why I am the best suited for everything you do. Also,

842
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: Courtney and Bell they went to high school together, so

843
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: this is also a bit of a reunion. Hopefully we'll

844
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 2: get some gossip about.

845
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 3: The olden days off the air.

846
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sure she was so fun and home anyway,

847
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: so welcome.

848
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 3: We're so happy to have you here.

849
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 8: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

850
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 3: Yay, Bell Shook.

851
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 4: So, Bell is a licensed therapist. She created the Equine

852
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,919
Speaker 4: Guidance Method and that it's really unbelievable. So Bell uses

853
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: the powerful bond between humans and horses. It helps calm

854
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 4: the nervous system. It helps survivors heal from trauma and

855
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 4: rebuild trust after really life changing experiences, which is.

856
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 3: A lot of what we talk about.

857
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 4: You know, where do you go from being a victim,

858
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 4: to being a survivor, to being your back to your

859
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 4: best self. But for anyone new to this, can you

860
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 4: describe equine therapy?

861
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 3: How does it work?

862
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 8: Bell? Yeah? So, equein therapy simply put, is horses helping

863
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 8: people heal. There's lots of modalities, there's lots of approaches

864
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 8: out there, there's lots of ways that people are working

865
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 8: with horses to help people heal. And I'm trained in

866
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 8: actually three different types of ecoin therapy. So, as you said,

867
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 8: I had created my own method because as a trauma expert,

868
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 8: I was really able to recognize that the horses were

869
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 8: taking We're taking people places that just can't always happen

870
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 8: in talk therapy or other traditional types of clinical work.

871
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 8: So after I earned my master's degree, I did ten

872
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 8: additional years of trauma training, specifically in doctor Peter Levine's approach.

873
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 8: So I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner, and once I got

874
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 8: exposed to Peter's work, I thought, oh, wow, this is

875
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 8: what the horses are doing. They are not just reading

876
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 8: our energy, They're not just tracking our emotions or mirroring

877
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 8: our emotions. They are literally being present with the person's

878
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 8: nervous system and more importantly, restoring it back to safety

879
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 8: and rebuilding that place of self trust and connection that

880
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 8: so often gets lost after a traumatic experience, you know.

881
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: Because it's something we talk about here every single night, right,

882
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: And even last night we were just saying like, Okay,

883
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,479
Speaker 2: this is the most traumatic story I've ever heard, or

884
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 2: this is a person who's been traumatized in a way

885
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: that's unimaginable. And yes, we can share those stories, we

886
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: can talk about them, but on Thursdays we just kind

887
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: of want to scratch at other ways that we can

888
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: all be opening our minds and our hearts to different

889
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 2: therapies that we can sort of have in a regular

890
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: person's life.

891
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: Right.

892
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: So I'm a little afraid of horses only because I

893
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: wasn't raised around them, That's the real truth of it.

894
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 2: And one time I was with buds, really close friends,

895
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: and we rode horses and it was a magical experience.

896
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: And then maybe another time, with maybe different circumstances, it

897
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: was kind of a scary experience.

898
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 3: And I would.

899
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: Assume that's because my nervous system was probably being reflected

900
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: in the experience. And I guess that says it all right,

901
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: Like they say dolphins, horses, they're they're so in tune

902
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: to human emotions that, you know, our nervous systems kind

903
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: of are kind of put onto them. So do you

904
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: have to have a horse or be a horse lover

905
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: to be affected by your work. No.

906
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 8: In fact, the majority of people that I work with

907
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 8: have never had any horse experience, and in some ways

908
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 8: that actually makes the intensive even more effective for them

909
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 8: because they're not coming in with all this baggage around

910
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 8: what we should or shouldn't do with horses or what

911
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 8: the rules are, and you know what's right or wrong,

912
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 8: and oftentimes that can be extremely helpful because at equine guidance,

913
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 8: what we're doing is the complete opposites really of the

914
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 8: way that humans have engaged with horses for you know,

915
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 8: since the beginning of time. Really, So if you were

916
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 8: to come out and watch an equine guidance session happen,

917
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 8: it would seem almost as exciting as watching paint dry,

918
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 8: because we're not making the horse do anything. We're not

919
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 8: asking the horse to do anything. There's no riding, there's

920
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 8: no round pinning, there's no brushing. What's happening is that

921
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 8: a space is being held for the person's nervous system

922
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 8: to come to the experience. So that's one of the

923
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 8: things that makes equine guidance quite unique and different from

924
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 8: other modalities in that we are waiting and allowing the

925
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 8: space for the person's own innate healing intelligence to be

926
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 8: able to come forward, and that can be extremely helpful,

927
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 8: especially when you think about trauma, where in talk therapy

928
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 8: it can be all too easy to get lost in

929
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 8: the narrative or the questions about why me, and that

930
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 8: would be a natural question for anyone to ask after

931
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 8: going through a traumatic and so not the place to

932
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 8: actually heal from because our left brains want to make

933
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 8: sense of things logically, and sometimes things are just so

934
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 8: horrific and tragic that there is no logic to it,

935
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 8: and so by working with the herd at Eckline guidance,

936
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 8: we actually come to it through the approach of connecting

937
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 8: with the nervous system or the right brain.

938
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm happy to hear that you don't have to

939
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 5: ride the horse, because, like Stephanie.

940
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 6: I have a little bit of a fear, so that

941
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 6: that would have been my concern.

942
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 5: Why is I think you're about to touch on this?

943
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 5: But you and I spoke a little earlier, and I

944
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 5: found it fascinating what you touched on why horses are

945
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 5: such great partners in this therapy, Like what it is

946
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 5: about their intuitiveness that they pick up on humans and

947
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 5: why that is why they have such a strong bond.

948
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, so humans and horses, our relationship goes back through

949
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 8: throughout time. So there's that. And then also, horses are

950
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 8: prey animals, so they are hyper vigilant to fencing the

951
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 8: energy or the space. They're hypervigilant to reading the nonverbal

952
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 8: cues or more more accurately, the cues of a person's

953
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 8: nervous system that will be radiating out. So every one

954
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 8: of us has had an experience where we've walked into

955
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 8: a room and no one has said the thing, but

956
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 8: immediately it's like, oh, what is this? What is happening?

957
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 8: And finally someone says something and it's like, oh, okay,

958
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 8: deeperath like you I feel that.

959
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, fascinating, Yeah, this is true crime. Tonight We're on iHeartRadio.

960
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 4: I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with Stephanie Leidecker, and

961
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 4: tonight we are joined with Belle Shook. She's a licensed

962
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 4: therapist to use the human and horse bond to help

963
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 4: people heal from trauma.

964
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 3: We want to hear from you.

965
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 4: It is up on the talkbacks, or give us a

966
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 4: call if you have any questions about equin therapy eight

967
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 4: at eight three one crime.

968
00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 3: So Bell, you mentioned.

969
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 4: How prey are particularly wired to feel your vibes. For

970
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 4: my layman's term and my husband when we first met,

971
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 4: he came with a bird, a cockatoo. They're the tall

972
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 4: white it's very different, but they are prey and these

973
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 4: are smart.

974
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 3: They talk, these cockatoo's. His name was Junior.

975
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 4: But Junior, if you walked into the room like you said,

976
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 4: and if you had like a bad day and or

977
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 4: had an aggressive day or any kind of energy, he

978
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 4: would absolutely react immediately in kind is that really he

979
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 4: would say, Courtney, No, he was not articulate that way.

980
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 4: He would more say hello, give me a kiss. But

981
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 4: the vibe, yeah he would.

982
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 3: Junior, he was a little smoocher.

983
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 4: But in terms of feeding off of energy, literally, if

984
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 4: I was excited in pretty much any kind of way, happy,

985
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 4: laughing at or pissed off at my husband, you know, excitable, yeah,

986
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 4: you know, flapping and just respecting and mirroring.

987
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 3: Well, we were talking.

988
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: About this last night Bell because you know, listen, it's

989
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: somebody who has stayed with me and I know us

990
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: since our conversation last night. You know, Sheina Scarborough. She

991
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: lost her daughter recently. She was on our show last night.

992
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 2: She's an extraordinary advocate, but going through, you know, arguably

993
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 2: the darkest time any human or mother could possibly go through.

994
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: And here she is doing all these extraordinary things for others,

995
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: and keeping her daughter's spirit alive, and raising her other

996
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: living daughter who's getting straight a's in high school, and

997
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: trying to hold down a job.

998
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 3: And the list goes on.

999
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: Imagine every one of our lives, and now add the

1000
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: most hideous extreme circumstances on top of.

1001
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 3: Those lists that we're also about.

1002
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: And all I could think was, there's no way this

1003
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 2: beautiful human whose smile is from ear to ear because

1004
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 2: she's just radiating that her nervous system and her adrenal

1005
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: glands and her cortersol levels are.

1006
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 3: Like off the charts because.

1007
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: She's in it right, and there's no guiding light, there's

1008
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: no rule book, there's no blueprint. She is just forging

1009
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 2: through on her own. And it made me think, oh

1010
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: my goodness, Thursdays, like, how do we all help, Like,

1011
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: how do we all, you know, hold space for anyone

1012
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: who's going through a situation like this? And I think

1013
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: there's power in that, right when we all kind of

1014
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 2: hold space for each other in moments of unimaginable trauma,

1015
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 2: that's important. I would imagine that horses in the most objective,

1016
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: beautiful way probably just or able to be there for

1017
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: space exactly.

1018
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 8: One of the things that really brings me hope as

1019
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 8: a human being is that our nervous systems will naturally

1020
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 8: and train with the most regulated nervous system. And so

1021
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 8: I'm one hundred and something pounds and I'm pretty regulated, right.

1022
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 8: I do a lot of self care, I'm a trauma expert.

1023
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 8: I'm always working at down regulating my own nervous system

1024
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 8: and so on. And so if you could imagine three

1025
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 8: very regulated horses that are each at thousand pounds each,

1026
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 8: that's three thousand pounds of regulated nervous system. Wow. And

1027
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 8: so often trauma happens in relationship, and so therefore the

1028
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 8: remedy for healing trauma is relationship. Horses can be so

1029
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 8: such a good bridge for people that have been traumatized

1030
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 8: in some way by other people, because they're not people

1031
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 8: they're horses, and they don't get lost and left brain

1032
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 8: logical ego meeting making kinds of stuff that we naturally

1033
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 8: do human mammals. And so they have a back door

1034
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 8: to being able to help the nervous system downregulate from

1035
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 8: stuck states of flight, flight, and freeze with such an

1036
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 8: exceptional grace and such an exceptional gentleness too, because it's

1037
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 8: the horses will be tracking the person's nervous system and

1038
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 8: they'll be able to see I don't know how, but

1039
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 8: they'll be able to see areas of the body where

1040
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 8: they're stuck energy. Really, so I'll give you an example.

1041
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 8: I worked with a woman and she had lived her

1042
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 8: heart's desire, her life's purpose, but she wanted, more than

1043
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 8: anything used to be a stay at home mom and

1044
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 8: raise her children. And she got to do that. And

1045
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 8: when her fourth child left for college, she broke her thumb,

1046
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 8: and then the doctors prescribed her pain medication, and then

1047
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 8: on top of that, she was drinking alcohol appropriately. But

1048
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 8: then what ended up happening is that it was this

1049
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 8: perfect storm and the grief of having her life shift

1050
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 8: in such a way when she broke her thumb, and then,

1051
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 8: you know, so her assistant basically tipped into addiction and

1052
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 8: she was out there with my horse, Salsa, and Salsa

1053
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 8: was licking her thumb and I had no idea why

1054
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 8: he was doing this at the time, and I was

1055
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 8: thinking to myself, Wow, this is pretty interesting, like I've

1056
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 8: never really seen this before. And then when she came out,

1057
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 8: she said, do you know who I am? And I

1058
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 8: got that like scared moment, kind of like at the

1059
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 8: end of the Scooby Doo Show where it's like, oh

1060
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 8: my gosh, like who are you really? Yeah, and then

1061
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 8: she shared the story, I you know, I tipped into

1062
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 8: addiction after I broke my thumb and Salsa spent the

1063
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 8: whole time licking her thumb. And that was one of

1064
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 8: my first early experiences in the early two thousands where

1065
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 8: I was like, something else is happening. This is way

1066
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 8: beyond like tracking energy and like mirroring emotions. And that's

1067
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 8: when I started my pursuit of trying to figure out

1068
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 8: what that answer was. And it's a creditors are stabilizing

1069
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 8: in the nervous system.

1070
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Well stick around. We are going to

1071
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 4: hear much much more. We have Belshuk who will be

1072
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 4: with us and we're also going to hear some really

1073
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,479
Speaker 4: remarkable real life stories through crime.

1074
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 2: Tonight, we're talking all things equine. Am I saying that

1075
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 2: we're correctly equine therapy? Yes, because it's therapy Thursday, and

1076
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: we're thinking of different ways that we can kind of

1077
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: regulate our nervous systems, especially if anyone who's listening has

1078
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: had trauma. By the way, all of the stories we're

1079
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: talking about are so trauma inducing, right. So, as much

1080
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 2: as we all want justice and we want to have

1081
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 2: answers and unpacked things keep ourselves safe in our own worlds,

1082
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 2: which is why I think we're all kind of gathered

1083
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: around the same little proverbial kitchen table right now talking

1084
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 2: about true crimes, it's also equally as important that we

1085
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: kind of regulate our own selves and make sure that

1086
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: we're self caring and looking out for each other. And

1087
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 2: you know, Bell, you seem to have sort of the

1088
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: answer to all of this, So tell us more about

1089
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 2: all the things horses.

1090
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, so all the things horses. And I think

1091
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 8: that horses are so good at this work. Well, actually,

1092
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 8: let me just say something here, and that's that it's

1093
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 8: not that all horses want to do this work. All

1094
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 8: horses can do this work because we're technically working with

1095
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 8: their innate intelligence as a creature. However, just like any

1096
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 8: animal assisted program, that animal has to want to participate

1097
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 8: and be part of what's happening. Otherwise, you know, just

1098
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 8: like us, it's like, oh my gosh, this is too

1099
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 8: much whatever. It might be, like.

1100
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 5: They even need therapy for themselves at some point if

1101
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 5: they're always doing this kind of work. How many horses

1102
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 5: did you say, Are there three that you're working with

1103
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 5: in particularly.

1104
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 8: Yes, I have three American bashker curlyes. So they are

1105
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 8: the hypoalagenic version of horses. There's only about five thousand

1106
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 8: of them in the world, and they were discovered as

1107
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 8: late as nineteen sixty when a rancher in Nevada had

1108
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 8: a bunch of horses turned out on his ranch and

1109
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 8: this really bad winter storm came through and sadly all

1110
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 8: the horses perished except for the ones that have this

1111
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 8: curly Dean Dakota Native Americans yeah called them the horse

1112
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 8: before the horse, because they believe that they came down

1113
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 8: from Russia to Alaska, into Canada and down into North

1114
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 8: America that way. Whereas for the most part all the

1115
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 8: other horses were brought over by the Spaniards, so they're

1116
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 8: very hearty. Yeah, they're kind of like mustangs. And they

1117
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 8: had these beautiful fluffy winter coats in the wintertime.

1118
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 5: And yeah, I do say this, but do you have

1119
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 5: a favorite salsa?

1120
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 6: Sounds like it would be mine? But which is tell

1121
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 6: me a little bit of salsa.

1122
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 2: Which for sures you in my head are so saying

1123
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 2: right now, if you do an emoji, it would be

1124
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: you and it's salsa emoji.

1125
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, but then also tell me a little bit about

1126
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 5: you know, how they like, how they how you came

1127
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,479
Speaker 5: to find these stick three horses as well.

1128
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 8: Oh my gosh, it was divine interventions. So I was

1129
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 8: in my early twenties, and I had been doing this

1130
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 8: work already for a few years with colleagues that were

1131
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 8: in a position to have ranches and horses and so forth.

1132
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 8: And and then someone in the area contacted me and

1133
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 8: said that she would like me to work with her

1134
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 8: and her horses. And she loved her sessions so much

1135
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 8: with me that she then allowed me to work off

1136
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 8: her property with her three American basher curles Memi, Penny,

1137
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 8: and Salsa. And then in two thousand and eight, when

1138
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 8: the real estate market dropped, she gifted me the three horses,

1139
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 8: and I was in a position to be able to

1140
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 8: buy a ranch in the Dirty Valley. So we have

1141
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 8: beautiful views of the Red Rocks and these three horses

1142
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 8: and I have been working together for just over twenty years.

1143
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 3: And is this like a retreat?

1144
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 2: Do people come to you and then work with the

1145
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 2: horses to regulate their nervous systems post trauma?

1146
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, so it's an individual customized experience. I also work

1147
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 8: with couples. Occasionally, I will work with very small groups,

1148
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 8: you know, like people will be like no, like I

1149
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 8: really really really want to do this with my best

1150
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 8: friend or my sister whoever. And so the reason that

1151
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 8: I don't do workshops anymore is because people fun people.

1152
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 8: We are mammals and we naturally want to belong to

1153
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 8: our herd. And so when we're doing really deep healing

1154
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 8: work at the level of what's available at Equine guidance,

1155
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 8: it becomes counterproductive actually to do it in a group format,

1156
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 8: because people start to start to give parts of themselves

1157
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 8: away instead of truly having the space hell for them

1158
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 8: for the completion of whatever The horses are helping or

1159
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 8: whatever the horses and I are helping that person work on.

1160
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 8: So it is a retreat in a sense, and that

1161
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 8: the sessions are one, two or three days and it's

1162
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 8: really about how many layers and would like to get to.

1163
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 8: We always work in the morning because that's when the

1164
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 8: horses are the freshest, and we work in three hour

1165
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 8: segments because with the nervous system needs is time and

1166
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 8: space and the compassionate witness of myself and my three

1167
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 8: horses to be able to help the coregulation. And the

1168
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 8: idea again that trauma happens in relationships, therefore the remedy

1169
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 8: for healing trauma happens in regulated relationship.

1170
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 6: I love it.

1171
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 8: I feel related in the relationship.

1172
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 6: I'm so happy.

1173
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 5: Once you said morning, wake up in the morning, three

1174
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 5: hours of work and we're done.

1175
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 4: I am. I feel like this is And I have

1176
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 4: a question for you Bell, And actually, if anyone else

1177
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 4: out there has a question for Bell about equin therapy,

1178
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 4: please give us a call eighty eight to.

1179
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 3: Three one prime.

1180
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 4: And you are going to need to help me find

1181
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 4: the vocabulary for what I'm trying to say. But earlier

1182
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 4: you had mentioned that so often that talk therapy. It

1183
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 4: just doesn't do the job. And I've certainly heard this

1184
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 4: and read studies, and it can go on for years

1185
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 4: and people kind of never fully heal. And what's the

1186
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 4: modality I'm thinking of. It's tapping. Oh you know, do

1187
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 4: you know.

1188
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 3: What I'm referring to?

1189
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 10: Ye?

1190
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yes.

1191
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 4: And is there any similarity in either the fact that

1192
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 4: it's a physicality or is it totally off base?

1193
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 8: I don't see any similarity there personally, because what the

1194
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 8: horses have the capacity to do is track the nervous

1195
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 8: system and be able to engage with the person in

1196
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 8: such a way to help restore that person's nervous system

1197
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 8: back to safe, calm and connected by allowing the opportunity

1198
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 8: for a gentle and that's really important, for a gentle

1199
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 8: release of the trauma energy out of the body. And

1200
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 8: that is part of the reason why my approach very

1201
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 8: much emphasizes the importance of inviting and welcoming the nervous

1202
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 8: system as opposed to pushing the experience out. So yes, yeah, letting.

1203
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 3: A release as opposed to holding it in.

1204
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 8: Right exactly and and and letting letting the nervous system

1205
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 8: come to the party as as opposed to creating an

1206
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 8: activity or an event that you know, pushes the trauma out,

1207
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 8: because that then can create retraumatization because it can be

1208
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 8: too much too fast. So when we're when we're working

1209
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 8: with guests at the Equine Guidance Ranch with the with

1210
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 8: the horses, we're we're never moving faster than what anybody's

1211
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,520
Speaker 8: nervous system can manage at any point, and that includes

1212
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 8: the horse, is not just the participants that's out there.

1213
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 2: It's interesting, like on a smaller level, if you've had

1214
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 2: a pet, a dog, a cat, any kind of a

1215
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 2: pet that you can snuggle with, right, you know, Dodger, Oh,

1216
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 2: my Dodger, I'm gonna do Like I would sleep with

1217
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 2: him on my neck, literally in my chest because his

1218
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 2: little heartbeat was so regulating. And when I was working,

1219
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 2: and sometimes I would get nervous, or if you're having

1220
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 2: a meeting you know who has not been in a

1221
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 2: scenario work or otherwise, that you're a little bit like

1222
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 2: I feel nervous, and I would have Dodger in my lap,

1223
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 2: and then I would feel at ease, right because his

1224
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 2: little heartbeat would be there.

1225
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:42,879
Speaker 3: And by the way, he was a little nugget.

1226
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 2: Now imagine a massive horse who you get to sort

1227
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 2: of kind of connect with and get in step with

1228
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 2: and also kind of create a rhythm with your nervous system.

1229
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 2: Is just even as I talk about it, my shoulders

1230
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 2: kind of go down little bit. And in cases of

1231
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 2: extreme therapy or extreme trauma more importantly, it's sometimes hard

1232
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 2: to talk about that to nauseum. It's it's something happened

1233
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:16,439
Speaker 2: to someone like we experienced even last night, just hearing

1234
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: about the loss of Shahdah and her mom. You're never

1235
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 2: gonna make sense of that. You can talk that to nauseum.

1236
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 2: This was a monster who stepped in and caused havoc

1237
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: of a really good life. It's not you're not going

1238
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 2: to make sense of it, but you have to come

1239
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 2: your nervous system to survive it.

1240
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 3: I would assume I think.

1241
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 2: From an outsider looking in, and I think people are

1242
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 2: experiencing levels of trauma that you know, maybe they can't share.

1243
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:52,440
Speaker 2: So having an animal or something to connect with without having.

1244
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 3: To be verbal is probably extremely important.

1245
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, for sure, because our most natural state is safe,

1246
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 8: common connected and trauma or really heightened you know, experiences

1247
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 8: of sorts like let's say there's a natural disaster like

1248
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 8: a hurricane. It's it's intended to be short lived. It's

1249
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 8: not so these struck states of flight, flight and freeze

1250
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 8: are not intended to be our way of being. Our

1251
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 8: way of being is actually intended to be safe, connected,

1252
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 8: and when we've gone through a traumatic event, our nervous

1253
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 8: system understandably gets stuck in fight or flights.

1254
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 2: And once to isolate, probably also and isolate by themselves.

1255
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 3: Because you don't want to be a burden on anybody.

1256
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I agree.

1257
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I just I want to ask you about

1258
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 5: a case. I think when we talked earlier, there was

1259
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 5: an incredible breakthrough that you talked to me a little

1260
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 5: bit about, which was involved the sixteen year old girl

1261
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 5: and her mother that came to do some therapy with you.

1262
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 6: Can you share that with everyone and tell us about that?

1263
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 8: Yeah? So, first off, I just want to clarify that

1264
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 8: the majority of my of my guests are actually adults.

1265
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 8: Every now and again I will work with a child,

1266
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:20,759
Speaker 8: but I always give a disclaimer because you know, children

1267
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 8: want to brush horses, and they want to ride horses,

1268
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 8: and they want to like lead horses around, and and

1269
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 8: you know, I'm there standing with the with the participants

1270
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 8: supporting them and tracking their nervous systems and asking how

1271
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 8: they're feeling. And sometimes they can be a bit eclectic

1272
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 8: for children. So and because you know, we're not riding

1273
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 8: and brushing and that kind of thing. So I think

1274
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 8: also when when a child has been traumatized in a

1275
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 8: family system, there's a secondary trauma that inevitably will happen

1276
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 8: for the parent because a parent wants more than anything

1277
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 8: for their child to be safe and happy and thriving

1278
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 8: and you know, doing things that that a teenager should be.

1279
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 8: And so when I when I worked with this mother,

1280
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 8: we uh what what what had happened is that her

1281
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 8: sixteen year old daughter was going to a medical professional

1282
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 8: and she had taken her daughter, uh to you know,

1283
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 8: the first handful of sessions or so and uh and

1284
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 8: felt that that she could trust the doctor, that the

1285
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 8: doctor knew what they were they were doing, and you know,

1286
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 8: there was a good treatment plan in place. And so

1287
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 8: the daughter eventually started going by herself and the doctor

1288
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 8: unfortunately sexually assaulted the sixteen year old. She she she

1289
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,679
Speaker 8: went home afterwards, immediately told her parents what had happened.

1290
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 8: They took her to the hospital. All the evidence was gathered. Yeah,

1291
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 8: and and so then you know, a court proceeding star

1292
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 8: the family thought that this would be done in six months,

1293
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 8: especially with DNA evidence. And then simultaneously, this this family

1294
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 8: and this sixteen year old daughter went through a five

1295
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:16,640
Speaker 8: year court case, which added a whole other gravitation and

1296
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 8: that the justice of the justice system is not always intact, unfortunately,

1297
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 8: And so so the work that the horses and I did,

1298
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 8: we were able to help the help the mom get

1299
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 8: her nervous system into into a space of peace again

1300
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 8: and calm again. And uh and it was just so

1301
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:47,599
Speaker 8: beautiful to watch the horses surround her and support her

1302
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 8: and have their presence be with her and use their breath,

1303
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 8: use really gentle touch. At one point, Mimi put her

1304
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 8: nuzzle nose on the mom's knee for about five minutes,

1305
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 8: and you could just think about how incredibly soothing and

1306
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:09,600
Speaker 8: regulating that is to our nervous system. And yeah, it's beautiful, beautiful.

1307
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 6: That's incredible, that's amazing.

1308
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 4: Listen, stick around, we have a lot more to dig into.

1309
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:20,719
Speaker 4: Therapist Bellshook continues to tell us about her therapy approach

1310
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 4: and how that is really changing lives, and.

1311
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 3: We have that and more.

1312
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 4: I think we have a couple of talkbacks here on

1313
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 4: True Crime tonight, and we would love to hear from you.

1314
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,839
Speaker 4: Eight A eight three to one crime True Crime Tonight.

1315
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 3: I love it.

1316
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1317
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1318
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 2: one of my most favorite humans period the end, exclamation point,

1319
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and listen, and body is out sick tonight,

1320
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 2: so we are missing her as always when she's not here,

1321
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 2: but we are wishing her well. She has a terrible cold,

1322
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 2: so we told her to go to bed, period the end.

1323
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 3: Or also exclamation point.

1324
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 2: But we have Taha and Sam and Adam and the boys,

1325
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 2: and we are we are knee deep in a really

1326
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: important conversation with Belle Shook. She's an equan guider or

1327
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 2: guidance giver therapist of sorts, basically using horses to help

1328
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 2: regulate anyone, but specifically, in our case, anyone who's experienced

1329
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:41,799
Speaker 2: trauma or difficult times. Right, so you know, raise your hand,

1330
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 2: make it you know high if you've had a bad day,

1331
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 2: likely this is therapy for you.

1332
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:48,559
Speaker 3: Right.

1333
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 2: So she's dedicated her life to working with horses to

1334
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 2: really help humans regulate their nervous systems and hopefully bring

1335
01:16:59,200 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 2: them some peace.

1336
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 3: And by the way, what a.

1337
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,800
Speaker 2: Beautiful life's work that you've dedicated to yourself to and

1338
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 2: we're so happy to have you here on therapy Thursday,

1339
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 2: So first and foremost thank you.

1340
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 3: So yeah.

1341
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 2: And also a butt of Courtney's back in the day.

1342
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:18,719
Speaker 2: So you know, at some point we're going to gossip

1343
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 2: about Courtney in high school. So su're ta set the clock, boys,

1344
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 2: we need at least two minutes to have a Like.

1345
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 2: I know, Coy is the coolest cat in high school,

1346
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 2: so we know this already.

1347
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 3: I would have been following her around like.

1348
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 2: A little duck as I as I know I would have.

1349
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 2: But you know, it was interesting about horses, just in

1350
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,759
Speaker 2: the materials that I was reading prior to you coming,

1351
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 2: is that they sort of mirror human.

1352
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:51,759
Speaker 3: Behavior, right. They are mirror our nervous systems. Is that accurate?

1353
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 8: So they mirror our emotions and even our affects that

1354
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 8: were not conscious of. So a great example of this

1355
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 8: is I was doing a couple's retreat intensive and uh,

1356
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:13,479
Speaker 8: the Aspen wife. I'd been on my property for about

1357
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 8: five minutes and my three horses start to do this

1358
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:21,160
Speaker 8: dance with each other, and there's lots of movements, and

1359
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 8: the male horse, Selsa's flirting with with Mimi and then

1360
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 8: you know, running off to give Penny a kiss, and

1361
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 8: then the two mayors are squealing at each other like

1362
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 8: two jealous girls. And yeah, and Selsa's man parts were

1363
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 8: hanging out.

1364
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 3: I thought you were up this couple.

1365
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 2: We need what is happening, but you can smell it

1366
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 2: a mile away. The couple is having troubles, right, So

1367
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 2: the horses are reflecting their emotion.

1368
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 8: H yes, So I say to the couple, I say,

1369
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 8: was their infidelity because my horses are acting out this

1370
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 8: whole scene. And they said, yes, that is that was

1371
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:13,599
Speaker 8: the beginning of our marriage, uh, starting to fall apart

1372
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 8: and uh and ultimately why why we're here? And so

1373
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 8: uh it was. It was a beautiful session because again,

1374
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 8: the reason that that three hours is so important is

1375
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 8: like let's like let's start to gently, slowly open with

1376
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 8: what the trouble is, but then have plenty of time

1377
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 8: to be able to work through it and help each

1378
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 8: person's nervous system be able to feel down, down, regulated

1379
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 8: and safe, calm and connected again. And this this work

1380
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 8: is particularly helpful for for couples because if you could

1381
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 8: imagine there's like the husband's nervous system, the wife's nervous system,

1382
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 8: and then there's almost like a third nervous system of

1383
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 8: the marriage, and helping all three of those parts come

1384
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 8: come back into balance is really ideal.

1385
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 3: Have that, Yeah, Dob, you don't have that balance.

1386
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 2: You can't even speak normal, right that there's no road

1387
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 2: to speaking productively if everybody's hyped, and it's really hard

1388
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 2: to be happening if you're in a relationship where everyone's

1389
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:23,440
Speaker 2: you know, for coxa. Right, So if you're in a

1390
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 2: relationship that's hitting a dead wall, that's very traumatic, and

1391
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 2: everyone's feeling amped and picking a corner, that's very traumatic.

1392
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 3: Maybe it takes a horse.

1393
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 5: Do you is it a horse for each person with

1394
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:41,760
Speaker 5: a couple, or is it do they both work with

1395
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 5: that same horse together?

1396
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, such a good question. So in the early years, right,

1397
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,959
Speaker 8: I would have my three horses locked in their different paddocks,

1398
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:54,040
Speaker 8: and and then I'd be like, okay, like you've chosen

1399
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 8: that horse or this horse has chosen you, and and

1400
01:20:57,880 --> 01:20:59,800
Speaker 8: and over the years I started to think, you know,

1401
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 8: if I trust these guys as much as I claim

1402
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 8: I do, Why am I being so controlling? And so

1403
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 8: I started to do the work where all the horses

1404
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 8: were free, all three of them were free, and it

1405
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 8: was so fascinating. It was they showed me that they

1406
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 8: knew when and who to go and engage with, how

1407
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 8: far to stand away from that person, what part of

1408
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 8: their body they would touch if they touched that person,

1409
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 8: and what horse was needed next. And so they work

1410
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 8: collectively as a as a herd, and my job is

1411
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:39,599
Speaker 8: to support the person in tracking their nervous system as

1412
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 8: well as the attuned to the information that the horses

1413
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 8: are sharing.

1414
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,639
Speaker 6: Wow, that's incredible.

1415
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 3: It is.

1416
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,400
Speaker 4: And then Bill, while this is going on, or I

1417
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 4: guess even before, because in the two instances you've mentioned,

1418
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 4: it sounded like you people hadn't sort of told you

1419
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 4: exactly here is my problem I'm having infidelity?

1420
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 3: Is there?

1421
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 4: Do you set things up so that you kind of

1422
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 4: find out through therapy.

1423
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:09,679
Speaker 3: Or what is that process? Generally?

1424
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 4: If I called you and said, hey, I need some help,

1425
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 4: what goes on?

1426
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:16,679
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1427
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:22,080
Speaker 8: Exactly. So I do a free consultation call discovery call

1428
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:24,840
Speaker 8: prior to somebody booking because I want to make sure

1429
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 8: that that they're aware of the type of work I'm

1430
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 8: doing and it makes sense to them, and it makes

1431
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 8: sense to to whatever their their struggle is. And so

1432
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:44,240
Speaker 8: there's there's a there's a there's an hour long call beforehand,

1433
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 8: and typically people will will share with me what what

1434
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 8: they would like to come to Sedona to work on

1435
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 8: with the equine guidance hard And because we're working with

1436
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 8: the nervous system, sometimes people think okay, like I'd really

1437
01:22:57,360 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 8: like to get to topic A, but then when they

1438
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 8: actually get out there with the horses, topic be arises

1439
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:07,639
Speaker 8: because we're giving the nervous system the platform as opposed

1440
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 8: to the narrative of our mind and what we think

1441
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 8: should quote unquote happen. And so also I like to

1442
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:20,720
Speaker 8: have initial consultation calls with people too, so they can

1443
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 8: feel really good and confident about the investment of flying

1444
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 8: to Sedona. The majority of my people come from around

1445
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 8: around the country. Many of them have done years of

1446
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 8: therapy already, and all the cognitive behavioral therapy or you know,

1447
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 8: talk therapy that they've done has been really helpful in

1448
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 8: regards to insight. So they are they have an awareness

1449
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 8: that their nervous systems are still stuck in a time

1450
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 8: of in the past somewhere.

1451
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 6: Wow.

1452
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 5: I find some of those specific stories or specific cases

1453
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 5: so fascinating on how you help people shift and change.

1454
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaker 5: And there was one that still stood out to me

1455
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 5: when we spoke. It was about the there was a

1456
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 5: person that was wrongfully accused of a crime. Tell me,

1457
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 5: tell me a little bit or tell everyone else a

1458
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 5: little bit about that one, because that was fascinating to me.

1459
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:14,879
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1460
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:19,679
Speaker 8: So a gentleman contacted me and he wanted to come

1461
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 8: and work with the herd. Uh And what had happened

1462
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 8: is he was wrongly accused of of a crime that

1463
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 8: he did not commit, and the court system, Uh, he

1464
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 8: was he was looking at going on trial and he

1465
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 8: had a significant amount amount of anxiety on a daily

1466
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 8: and pretty chronic basis, being faced with the with the

1467
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,080
Speaker 8: fear of spending five years in prison for something he

1468
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 8: didn't do, and how that would alter and impact his life.

1469
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 8: And uh So when he came to work with the

1470
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,920
Speaker 8: with the horses again, it's the you know, the three

1471
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 8: of us, myself and the guests that's there that day,

1472
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:07,639
Speaker 8: and uh and the horses just so sweetly and gently

1473
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 8: and slowly and moved at it at a snail's pace,

1474
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:15,519
Speaker 8: which is really really important for any type of trauma,

1475
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:18,600
Speaker 8: so that then there's plenty of time for things to

1476
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,400
Speaker 8: open gradually and then also be able to be integrated

1477
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 8: and then ultimately restored. And and he left the session

1478
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 8: feeling feeling really confident in himself, much calmer.

1479
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 7: Uh.

1480
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 8: We we did some guided imagery also, so that then

1481
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 8: when he was in the courtroom on the stand, he

1482
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:41,759
Speaker 8: would be able to imagine me, me, Penny and Salsa

1483
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 8: standing in there and being his coal regulating force and support. Ultimately.

1484
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have not met me La, but I'm feeling

1485
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 5: regulated already.

1486
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 6: Just hearing their names. It makes me feel.

1487
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:01,759
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you know, was it was so beautiful because

1488
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 8: he was found not guilty, because he was not guilty, thankfully,

1489
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 8: and and you know, it's just it's, uh, it's it's

1490
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 8: it's unfortunate that they that the justice system falls so

1491
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:19,720
Speaker 8: much on how well someone can lawyer up and and

1492
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 8: how well everyone does understand as opposed to what the

1493
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 8: actual truth is.

1494
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:25,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, we've talked about that.

1495
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 2: Everybody gets hit, you know, you you talk about trauma.

1496
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:34,320
Speaker 2: We've like, we we hear stories that are so tragic

1497
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 2: nightly literally nightly of people who have the wherewithal to

1498
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,320
Speaker 2: push on. But you know, sometimes it's without tools, right,

1499
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 2: So we're like, oh, it will get better with time,

1500
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 2: what does it even mean? Or you go to therapy

1501
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 2: and you can talk about it, and that just keeps

1502
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 2: bringing it up and they're like, oh hours up, Okay,

1503
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 2: oh my goodness. But the actual healing piece of it,

1504
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 2: I do think you don't heal alone. And maybe then

1505
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 2: not alone isn't always just applying to humans. It could

1506
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 2: apply to animals and to horses and to yourself, who

1507
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 2: are just kind of like taking a reback everybody back

1508
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 2: to their authentic state where they can kind of regulate

1509
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 2: themselves at some point once you get the kick in

1510
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 2: the right direction.

1511
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 4: Or even it's it is amazing how much and we've

1512
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:27,600
Speaker 4: spoken about this both on the show and quiet a

1513
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 4: bit off the show, of just how much trauma does

1514
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:32,480
Speaker 4: live in your body.

1515
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 3: I mean, it'll make you sick. Oh, next thing you

1516
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:36,000
Speaker 3: know you have.

1517
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 2: I don't know a single by the way, in my

1518
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 2: friend group, and I have the coolest, greatest friends that

1519
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 2: I can't wait for you all to meet. Everybody's dealing

1520
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:47,759
Speaker 2: with some sort of autoimmune thing myself included.

1521
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 3: You know, I have Celiac disease. Who cares? It's like

1522
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 3: the most worrying topic.

1523
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 10: Everybody starts to giggle and like everybody just rolled their

1524
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 10: eyes as I said it out loud, I was like,

1525
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 10: and then you know what about me with my celiac

1526
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 10: disease by the viral central But like, now take that

1527
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:06,640
Speaker 10: out of it, like but like real autoimmune things that

1528
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:11,320
Speaker 10: are or you know, dealing with, you know, real dis ease,

1529
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,240
Speaker 10: the lack of ease, dis ease that is being brought

1530
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,960
Speaker 10: on from traumatic events that are not being discussed or

1531
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 10: shared out loud.

1532
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 3: I think the biggest issue.

1533
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 2: No one cares what I think, But like not having

1534
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 2: the luxury of sharing with a loved one, or not

1535
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:32,639
Speaker 2: having the luxury of sharing with a best friend or

1536
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 2: an ally, maybe a horse is the answer that somebody

1537
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 2: could who can tell you to take it down and

1538
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:42,360
Speaker 2: that it's okay and that you're not alone, and that

1539
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 2: this will get better and you will heal from this.

1540
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:49,080
Speaker 2: You know, sharing is the first step, right, like crying

1541
01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 2: with like we don't do it alone in isolation in

1542
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 2: our own screwed up heads. That is for sure the

1543
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 2: wrong answer, but only when you're in that, When you're

1544
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:01,040
Speaker 2: in a trauma state, you want to be alone and

1545
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 2: isolated in your own messed uphead, right, it requires somebody

1546
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 2: to pull you out of it, and not everybody has that,

1547
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 2: so maybe it's you and having horses that can sort

1548
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 2: of step in where the human can't, can remind people

1549
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 2: that you can not broken.

1550
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 3: This is just like a real good, you.

1551
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:23,360
Speaker 2: Know, crack and like we're getting along with the show

1552
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 2: and this will be a story we'll tell at some point,

1553
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,879
Speaker 2: but like when you're in it, it's really hard to see.

1554
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:32,080
Speaker 3: That so so true. Oh my goodness.

1555
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:35,679
Speaker 4: I just want to make sure we get this information out.

1556
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:38,679
Speaker 4: We have a little bit of time left, but listen,

1557
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:44,040
Speaker 4: whoever would like to find out more, or of course

1558
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 4: to engage in therapy with Belshuk. This equine guidance sounds

1559
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:52,600
Speaker 4: so amazing. I just want, yeah, like I want to

1560
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 4: be so good. It sounds so incredible and it sounds

1561
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:59,160
Speaker 4: life changing, honestly I love Yeah.

1562
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, But to point that out too and say that

1563
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 5: if you'd like to learn more about the experience or

1564
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 5: go for yourself, it's as simple as visiting equanguidance dot com.

1565
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:13,400
Speaker 5: And again that's equanguidance dot com and that I can

1566
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:15,760
Speaker 5: tell you right now that I've got my cowboy hat

1567
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 5: from Beyonce. I'm going to be packing that up and

1568
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 5: getting on a plane and going yah to visit you

1569
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,720
Speaker 5: because I need that cowboy boots. I got to do

1570
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 5: the whole outfit, the whole thing.

1571
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 4: And then also on TikTok and Instagram equine guidance as well.

1572
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:32,040
Speaker 3: So you're fine. But yeah, we all need a little

1573
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:36,719
Speaker 3: dysregulation or people break, right, people break.

1574
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:40,000
Speaker 2: It's a breakthrough, but maybe you need to have your

1575
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 2: nervous system regulated. And I think it's really remarkable. And

1576
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,240
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that we got to meet you, Bell,

1577
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:49,000
Speaker 2: and I want to go to Sedona. It sounds so

1578
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:52,639
Speaker 2: fun and again, thank you for sharing. And I think

1579
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:54,880
Speaker 2: we're all better for it. And listen, you're going to

1580
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 2: be back, right you promise, give raise your right hands.

1581
01:30:58,520 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 3: Come on, here we go.

1582
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 2: Nah, we're talking, so she will be back. So more

1583
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 2: equan therapy to go. This is true crime tonight. We

1584
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 2: will see you tomorrow.