1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 2: and it's Saturday, so we are heading into the vault 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: for an older episode of the show. This one originally 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: published July twenty third, twenty twenty four, and it's part 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: two of our series about burning hair. Hair on Fire Enjoy. 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert. 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: part two in our discussion of burning hair. This topic 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: was inspired by a personal experience for me. I actually 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: singed a bunch of hair off my arm while grilling 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: at a family get together for the Fourth of July, 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: and not the first time I've done that, well grilling 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: for a crowd, and it got me thinking about what 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: happened when hair burns. So in the last episode we 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: talked about the distinctive and sometimes overpowering smell of burning hair, 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 2: which seems to be mostly due to the presence of 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: sulfur compounds that are formed and released when hair burns, 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: a chief one being sulfur dioxide which is released when 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: the keratin of hair is decomposed by fire. Sulfur dioxide 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: is also a major part of the characteristic smell of 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: a burning match head. We also ended up talking about 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: a couple of studies of hair catching on fire in 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: space ships, specifically addressing the question of whether human hair 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: is a fire hazard in environments with higher levels of 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: oxygen than Earth's atmosphere, and the answer seems to be yes. 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: In oxygen rich environments, where things catch fire more easily 30 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: because there's more oxygen, human hair can be a potent 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: fuel source and fire can spread quickly over it. So 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: these papers ended up talking about strategies to mitigate that 33 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: risk in future spacecraft and space habitation environments that might 34 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: be using elevated levels of oxygen. And then finally we 35 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: talked about stories of the seventeenth and early eighteenth century 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: English pirate Edward Teach, better known as Blackbeard, who famously 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: was said to put burning slow matches under his hat 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: and he's drawn with like these slow matches and it 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: kind of fuses, sticking out alongside his hair. In some 40 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: evolved versions of this legend, maybe he's said to have 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: the burning slow matches in his hair or in his beard, 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: and we discussed to where these stories come from, how 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: historically plausible they are, including considerations of the danger of 44 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: catching one's own hair or beard on fire in general. 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: In case you don't listen to that episode, don't try 46 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: any of this at home. Don't set out to do 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: anything flammable with your beard or. 48 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: Hair now, kind of continuing on that theme, I ended 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: up pursuing a research trail where I didn't turn up 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: quite as much as I expected to, but I at 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: least want to report what I did come across. So 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: I had a vague idea from somewhere that the powdered 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: wigs that were popular in parts of Western Europe, especially 54 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century, were prone to catching on fire. 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: My impression here may have been formed by seeing older 56 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: illustrations of this, or like cartoons from the period that 57 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: show people with elaborate hair wigs and headdresses catching on 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: fire due to a candle placed underneath them or something. Ultimately, 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: I found less about this than I expected to, and 60 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: I can't tell if it was actually any more common 61 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: than regular instances of people catching their hair on fire, 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: which of course does happen occasionally. Here and there, but 63 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: just to get into what it did come across, I 64 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: found mentioned in a post on the British Library's Untold 65 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: Lives blog, and I may have mentioned this on the 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: show before, but generally I think the British Libraries have 67 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: some great blogs and archives about history and some interesting 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: documents in their collections. This post was by Julia Armfield 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: from August twenty thirteen, and it's a short post concerning 70 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: how the elaborate wigs that had been so popular among 71 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: the wealthy during the Georgian Era, which was about seventeen 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: fourteen to eighteen thirty seven, these elaborate wigs began to 73 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: fall out of fashion later on in that period and 74 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: going into the Victorian period, they sort of fill out 75 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: out of fashion after the French Revolution and then especially 76 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: after the eighteen thirties. According to the author, this was 77 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: in part because of changing social perceptions about wigs that 78 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: they came to be seen not just as fashion but 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: in some cases as a kind of undesirable show of 80 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: vanity or as a deception. Which is funny because I 81 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: realized that even today there are like changes in how 82 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: you know, people are always like trying to affect their 83 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: outward appearance. There's like, you know, there's haircare and cosmetics 84 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: and stuff like that in every era, and for some reason, 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: you can look at someone trying to shape their appearance 86 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: in a certain way and just say, well, that's just fashion, 87 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: but with just a different kind of emotional spin on it. 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: You start to think of it as they're trying to 89 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: look unreal, They're trying to look away they're not supposed to. 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: Now it's a deception. 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's interesting to think about. I guess the 92 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: stigma against powdered wigs in particular has pretty much stuck. 93 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: I think, yea, you know, there's certainly there's nothing wrong 94 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: with wearing a wig or a hair piece. But if 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: it is a powdered wig or a hair piece like 96 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: out of the period piece broadly speaking, like there's a 97 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: certain air that comes with that, then I guess there 98 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 1: are probably some exceptions in the fashion world and so forth. 99 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: Well, like why would wearing a wig be a deception, 100 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: but like wearing clothes that cover your skin is not 101 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: a deception. 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, I mean, I guess on one level, 103 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: someone can make the argument, well, the hair supposedly grows 104 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: out of you. The hair is of course, by its 105 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: very nature, something you put on you. But I don't know, yeah, 106 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: I mean, when you get down to it, why does 107 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: it matter one way or the other. 108 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: Anyway, This blog post mentions, in apart from changing social 109 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: perceptions of wigs, that there were that there were practical 110 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: problems presented by the wigs of the Georgian era, including 111 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: the fact that some wigs were so huge and heavy 112 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: that they actually caused people wearing them to develop sores 113 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: on their scalps. Another thing is infestation by insects or 114 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: other unwanted critters and parasites. Lice and fleas sometimes would 115 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: get into wigs, and that's also sometimes held up as 116 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: one reason for the popularity of wigs. Is that, well, 117 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: maybe the lice will get into the wig instead of 118 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: getting into your actual hair, if you can cut your 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: hair short or shave it, and then you know, they 120 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: just get into the wig instead. But then you've got 121 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: lice in your wig. I've read in separate places about 122 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: mitigation strategies for this, including historical trends in wigs that 123 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: would include built in lice or flea traps that would 124 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: be some kind of container with like bait hidden inside 125 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: the hair. But also this British Library post mentions that 126 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: Georgian wigs would be flammable due to the presence of 127 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: palmades made in large part out of animal fats such 128 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: as hogs lard or mutton renderings. Of course, animal fat 129 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: can be quite combustible, and so if you're using that 130 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: as the base of a kind of hair styling material 131 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: or pomade that we would think of today, you know, 132 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: to hold the wig in its in its styling shape, 133 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: you can imagine there would be trouble. Like you know, 134 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: combined wigs gelled up with animal fat and the use 135 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: of candles as a primary light source, and it just 136 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 2: seems like it would be a recipe for wig fires. 137 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: But I wasn't able to turn up a lot about 138 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: this in like history books or academic articles about the 139 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: history of wigs. I did find another blog post. This 140 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: one was on a history blog called all Things Georgian 141 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: by an author named Syria Murden, that managed to dig 142 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: up a handful of eighteenth century newspaper reports from England 143 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: and Scotland of young women's wigs or headdresses catching on 144 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: fire from a candle or in one case I think 145 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: from a fireplace and in a couple of cases leading 146 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: to their deaths. But again I did not find convincing 147 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: evidence that this was actually a really common occurrence or anything. So, 148 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: you know, with candles everywhere and large smeared masses of 149 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 2: hair bobbing around all over the place, it does seem 150 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: plausible that this would happen a lot, But apart from 151 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: a few reports here and there, I'm not sure it 152 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: actually did. Historians of wigs and hair, if you're aware 153 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 2: of something I'm not right in. 154 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is often weird to look back on times 155 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: when candles were your main form of elimination. There were 156 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: a lot more open fires and less in the way 157 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: of fire safety, And on one level, you just kind 158 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: of think, well, why wasn't everything on fire all the time? 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: And certainly fire was a huge threat. But yeah, I 160 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe part of it is we sometimes don't 161 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: give our ancestors enough credit for not catching everything on fire. 162 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, we think of them as the way 163 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: we might think of our own children if they're in 164 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: the presence of an open flame. 165 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, I guess sometimes when we think about a historical 166 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: activity or apparatus that came with certain hazards. We imagine 167 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 2: the prevalence, but without the accustomedness that would accompany prevalence. 168 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: I mean, a world with lots of candles also had 169 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: people who were used to handling candles. 170 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Now, at this point in the episode, we're 171 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: going to get a little bit into hair of fire 172 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: and flaming beards and so forth, and mythology and folklore 173 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: and literature. And I have to admit this is an 174 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: area where I thought we were going to have more 175 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: to draw from. And certainly, you know, we probably left 176 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: some things off, and certainly, as always right in and 177 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: let us know if you have some great examples to 178 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: bring to mind. But generally I was thinking, Okay, hair 179 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: can burn, and it's reasonable to assume that every fire 180 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: bearing culture would have some experience with this that they 181 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: might further craft into various myths and legends, jokes, you know, 182 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: turns of phrase and so forth. Right, I mean, you 183 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: have fire, Hair can catch on fire. Maybe it doesn't 184 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: happen that often, but if it happens once, it's memorable. 185 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: And therefore you might have some traditions, you might have 186 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: some magical creatures, you might have some gods and goddesses 187 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: that have flaming hair. And while this is true, we 188 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: do have some examples to discuss, we didn't. I wasn't 189 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: able to find as many examples as I was expecting. 190 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: I was expecting it to be just a long list 191 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: of creatures and entities, but there's there's actually a lot 192 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: of like bleed over into other categories that makes it difficult, 193 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: you know, like just characters with red hair or characters 194 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: who have some sort of a halo or an ara. 195 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,599 Speaker 1: But then it's kind of left to exactly what languages 196 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: used as to whether you would call this flaming hair. 197 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are a lot of examples that 198 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: are arguable or edge cases, but I also was expecting 199 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: there just to be a lot more defined with it. 200 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: Was just like, here's a figure with fire for hair. 201 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: Maybe because I'm used to Hades from the Disney movie. 202 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is a great example to bring up 203 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: the Greek god Hades in the nineteen ninety seven Hercules 204 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: movie flaming blue hair, voiced by James Woods. He's not 205 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: actually a fire related deity in Greek mythology. This was 206 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: just a visual choice by Disney that actually, I guess 207 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: the exact alchemy of this is they're dragging in elements 208 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: often associated generally with the Christian devil, you know, fire 209 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: and so forth, and and creating this kind of like 210 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: Haiti Satan combo for their their main villain, and making 211 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: like a very distinct visual choice on how to just 212 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: to present him. 213 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a combination. So you associate the Christian 214 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: the Christian Satan with the lake of fire, I guess. 215 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: So there's your fire element. But then you you've got 216 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: to have it like cold, sort of more like you 217 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: would get in Dante's Lower levels of Hell, or like 218 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: you would get I think more often in Greek depictions 219 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: of the underworld. It's just kind of like a cold, 220 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: dark place. So they make the fire blue, which ironically 221 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: is actually the hottest color of flame. 222 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, that's that's a that's a fun example 223 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: to bring up. I mean, there's so many pop culture 224 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: examples of this, and I think that's one of the 225 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: confusing things, is you, I mean, I would assume anyway 226 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: that Okay, we have characters like Captain Marvel and and 227 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: and so forth from from Marvel comics, and and they 228 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: have like flaming hair at times. Then this is it's 229 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: just a more modern example of a longer health tradition, 230 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: and that we're gonna have all these other examples and 231 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: in all these different belief systems. But yeah, I found 232 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: that you have certainly have no shortage of things like 233 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: fire elementals in modern fiction and sci fi and fantasy, 234 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: all sorts of creatures and spirits with flaming hair and 235 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: flaming beards. But they're just they seem there's just seemed 236 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: to be less of them when you actually look into 237 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: folklore and mythology and legend. 238 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: As far as the recent pop culture examples go. You 239 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: brought up one in the notes that I didn't think of, 240 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: which is the one from the Wall the movie. 241 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, this is the animated Pink Floyd movie, 242 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: and I believe it's Pink's wife, and it is depicted 243 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: later on as this kind of like monstrous cannibal creature 244 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: with flaming hair, hair of literal fire. 245 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: I've seen this movie, I mean a long time ago. 246 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: I think I was in high school, but I completely 247 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: forgot about this. The main thing I remember is warning 248 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: for a gross thing about the scene shaves his nipple off. 249 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about that. How could you. I mainly 250 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: just remember the hammers like marching around. 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, yeah, the fascist imagery. 252 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's been a long time since I've seen 253 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: I think I saw it when I was a kid, 254 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: and you know, on TV parts of it. Anyway, Ultimately, 255 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: the examples of like fire elemental beings are too numerous 256 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: to mention, but I was reminded of that there's one 257 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: in The Dark Crystal. So I picked up my copy 258 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: of the Dark Crystal Bestiary, and there's a description of 259 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: these things called the fire Lings. And I believe these 260 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: pop up in some of the like Dark Crystal Expanded 261 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: Universe material, I guess, you know, in comic books and 262 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: so forth. And I think maybe they were going to 263 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: be a part of a possible film project that never 264 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: came to fruition. But these are supposed to be direct 265 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: descendants of Gelfling exiles who live in the superheated core 266 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: of the planet Thraw, and they're depicted as Gelfling like beings, 267 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: but they have hair of fire. And then I found 268 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: like a couple of different images that kind of portray 269 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: different ideas of this, Like in one of them you 270 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: can see the Gelfling or in this case, the fire 271 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: ling has hair that is literal fire, and the others 272 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: they just look like fiery, golden beings. And it's kind 273 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: of left up to your interpretation if their hair is 274 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: just actual physical hair, or if it is like the 275 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: chemical emergence, you know, this, this pyrotechnic experience of fire. 276 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. 277 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: I'm tempted to speculate that a lot of this modern 278 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: hair as fire imagery and cartoons and stuff specifically comes 279 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: from physical and visual similarities between hair and fire that emerge, 280 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: especially when they're being depicted in human drawing. That you know, 281 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: the ways that you sort of represent say hair blowing 282 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: in the wind, or hair flowing in a like a 283 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: still painting or photo or still painting or drawing can 284 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: very much resemble the kind of wisps of a fire, 285 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: but oriented in the opposite direction. Often. Yeah, I don't know, 286 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: and that's not a fully formed thought, but something almost 287 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: makes me think that it's something about like modern drawing 288 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: and animation traditions that give rise to seeing these things 289 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: as visually similar and then inviting the mind to make 290 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: a connection where it's not just that hair looks like fire, 291 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: but you have a character with fire fore hair. 292 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was definitely thinking a bit about like 293 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: how hair appears when it is say, caught by the wind, 294 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: or if one is underwater and you have like footage 295 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: of someone with long hair and the hair is floating 296 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: and so forth, and if that has anything to do 297 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: with I mean that you could sort of link it 298 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: to the history of underwater the underwater moving picture, which 299 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: of course isn't going to go back that far, and 300 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: you could perhaps, I guess arguably enhance comparisons that would 301 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: be made in general, because of course there are always 302 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: going to be comparisons made between you know, reddish hair 303 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: and fire. You can factor in things like you know, 304 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: length and texture as well. But you know, at the 305 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: end of the day, we do have at least a 306 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: few examples of creatures and entities that I feel like 307 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: are close enough that we can say, Okay, we can 308 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: quibble about the details, but these creatures kind of sound 309 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: like they have fire for hair. 310 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: Okay, what'd you come up with? 311 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: Now? A couple of these are from South America. One 312 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: is called the Kuma Conga, and this is a disembodied 313 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: head spirit of Brazilian folklore that I was reading about 314 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: in the werewolf in between Indians and Whites. This is 315 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: by Mark Harris and this was published in t PTE, 316 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: Journal of the Society for the Anthropology of Lowland South America. 317 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: And in this article, Harris describes this entity as entailing 318 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: aspects of what we might think of as a werewolf, 319 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, in Western folklore, especially as well as sightings 320 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: of balls or wheels of fire. So that's another thing 321 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: I saw several examples of. It's like you have sort 322 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: of like fire entities, kind of will of the wisp 323 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: sort of entities, and it depends on like how far 324 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: you push that from being like a mere strange light 325 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: to being a flaming entity or a flaming head or 326 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: something with you know, physiology to it. Now, another one 327 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: that I've ran across was the Kurapura. I've seen descriptions 328 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: of this spirit from Tupequar Knee traditions of Brazil, entailing 329 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: a beard of fire, though Carol Rose doesn't mention this 330 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: in her entry on the creature in the book Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns, 331 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: and Goblins and Encyclopedia, she describes it as a bright, 332 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: red faced gnome with cloven hoofs as well as a 333 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: shaggy creature with backward turned feet. It's kind of a 334 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: forest guardian of game. Then there's also an Afro Brazilian 335 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: tradition of the Kurupira that casts everything more as a 336 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: will of the wisp that leads people off track in 337 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: the forest, but maybe sort of bribe with offerings. But 338 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: I've seen some more recent articles that mention either red 339 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: hair or hair of fire, so I can't completely dispute 340 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: that idea. But again, it seems like we often run 341 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: into this territory of It's probably some linguistic drift in 342 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: some of these descriptions, especially when you're dealing with multiple translations, 343 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: so hard for me to tell anyway exactly like what 344 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: the tradition actually is. Are we dealing with creatures that 345 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: are thought to have hair of fire or does that 346 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: just sort of get added on somewhere in the chain. 347 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: Or I think, especially the further back you go in history, 348 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: just to kind of blending of the concepts of light 349 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 2: and fire, that in many cases any light source that 350 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: didn't come from the sky or whatever could be described 351 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: as a fire. 352 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, if you see a strange light in 353 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: the forest, for example, or in the sky and it 354 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: is of sufficient luminosity, like it's very reasonable to say, oh, 355 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: there was some sort of fire out there, there was 356 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: some sort of Yeah, what else could it be? If 357 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: it's like above, if it's not the moon, if it's 358 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: not a you know, something that is obviously celestial, and 359 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: it's not something that is like a firefly, then you 360 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: might reasonably think in terms of candles and torches and 361 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: so forth. I'm also reminded of a fireball yo kai 362 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: from Japanese traditions. I think we may have talked about 363 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: this one before and name Ubagabi, and this is more 364 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: of a fireball, but with the face of an old man. 365 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: And I guess if it is an old man's face, 366 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: then you could say, well, there the hair is fire. 367 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: But maybe not. Maybe that's adding too much on, you know. 368 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: I've also seen some ideas about low Key from Norse 369 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: mythology having hair of fire or flame hair. This I 370 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: didn't get a real strong feeling off of this either. 371 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: Hair with these two can get kind of complicated, and 372 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: in general are sort of understanding of them are kind 373 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: of you know, influenced by Marvel comics now, but you know, 374 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: Thor sometimes had red hair and a red beard, and 375 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: Loki is sometimes depicted with red hair, sometimes arguably resembling 376 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: a flame. And this is where I've seen various commentators, 377 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: you know, pointing out this idea that Loki may be 378 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: connected to the word Logi, which means flame, but is 379 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: also the name of one of the otin who personified fire. 380 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: So again, I don't know, there's that you could make 381 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: a case. I guess that sometimes Loki was perhaps a 382 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: fire headed god, but maybe not. Now one of the 383 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: stronger cases I came across is there is an Armenian 384 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: warrior god by the name of Vaughan the Dragon Reaper, 385 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: who apparently is more traditionally described as having celestial fire 386 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: for hair, a beard of flames, and eyes like suns. 387 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: So this one would seem a stronger example. Uh though 388 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: it is interesting here too that we're getting into like 389 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: celestial fire here in this idea of like a holy 390 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: flame that doesn't necessarily behave like a real flame, and 391 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: is also kind of like a halo, kind of like 392 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: a holy aura. But I feel like this this guy, 393 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: you can make a stronger case and say, Okay, this 394 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: guy has has fire for hair. 395 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: So I was not initially familiar with a hagan the 396 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: dragon reaper, but the dragon reaper apparently is like a 397 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: that's a translation of a traditional epithet. But that's it's 398 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: amazing how much that sounds like modern cool. It sounds 399 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: like something out of a video game. 400 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is old school cool right here. 401 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: It makes me think I really need to get into 402 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: Armenian mythology more. I really don't know much about about 403 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: Armenian myth and lore, but if this is any indication 404 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: that they have warriors with flaming hair that slay dragons, 405 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: then I want to know more about it now. There 406 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: are a lot of additional possible examples in Buddhist i 407 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: Canog and Hindu iconography where you have things like hair 408 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: of fire going on. But also again sometimes it's might 409 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: be more akin to a halo or an aura or 410 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: multiple auras. And of course there's often a lot of 411 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: information that is being relayed through these religious images. But 412 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: for instance, the tantric Buddhist Paul Deen Mamo is sometimes 413 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: depicted with hair of flame. The Hindu god Agny is 414 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: sometimes depicted with hair of fire two varying degrees, but 415 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: sometimes it's more of an aura of flame so again, 416 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of drift here, and 417 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: a lot of it is going to be left to 418 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: personal interpretation. Now one of the more interesting things to discuss, though, 419 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: really gets us more I guess into the literature end 420 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, getting into Latin literature here. But are 421 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: there's not one? But there are two instances in Virgil's 422 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: Eneid concerning omens of burning hair and or hair that 423 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: becomes or is surrounded by a holy fire. 424 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 2: M okay. 425 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: So Virgil's Eneid has come up on the show before, 426 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: but I thought we should maybe take a moment just 427 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: to ground it properly and talk about what it is. So. 428 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: Virgil was a Roman poet who lived seventy BCE through 429 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: nineteen BCE and served Emperor Augustus. He composed the epic 430 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: poem the Eneid between twenty nine and nineteen BCE as 431 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: an attempt to ground Rome, the Roman people, and the 432 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: rule of his boss Augustus within a deeper mythopoetic tradition, 433 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: because while Romans he certainly had epics such as Homer's 434 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: the Iliad and the Odyssey, they lacked for a true 435 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: national epic and a true founding work of mythic literature. 436 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: So that's what Virgil had set out to do, to 437 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: create one, spinning a saga out of Greek myth and 438 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: the of Homer into a Roman history. Now, Virgil died 439 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: at the young age of fifty, possibly due to complications 440 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: from heatstroke. I think maybe there's some back and forth 441 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: over this, but sometimes I see it rather matter of 442 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: factly said that it was probably heat stroke. But he dies, 443 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: and as he is dying, he requests this unpublished and 444 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: unfinished epic to be destroyed. He's like, it's not ready yet, 445 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: I just get rid of it. Underlings, please destroy it. 446 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: His orders are are not obeyed, though, and Augustus, having 447 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: been exposed to some very flattering passages of the epic 448 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: in which the hero, the hero of the tale, mirrors 449 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: and predicts the rise of Augustus, he says, now, this 450 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: work is great, Please make sure that it is published. 451 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: And then it is published, and as we'll get into 452 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: maybe not every passage of the Aenead is as flattering 453 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: as those that Augustus initially heard. 454 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So for more context on Virgil, by the way, 455 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: I just wanted to say we did talk about him 456 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: a good bit in our episode a few years back 457 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: on insect funerals, because there is an apocryphal legend in 458 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: which Virgil and his friends held an elaborate funeral for 459 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: a fly. I think we concluded that this probably did 460 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 2: not actually happen, but the story arose like within the 461 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 2: logic of the story, it's something like they're using it 462 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: as a legal loophole to protect some estate from being seized. 463 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: But also in that episode, we talked about how Dante, 464 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: the author of The Divine Comedy, thought Virgil was just 465 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: like the coolest guy ever and the best example of 466 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: poetic virtues, which is why he uses him as the 467 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: virtuous pagan character who guides his fictionalized tour of Hell. 468 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, And ultimately that's where I've certainly more 469 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: read on the Divine Comedy than I am on the 470 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: actual works of Virgil. But you end up learning about 471 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: Virgil in his works through Dante, like you end up 472 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: learning about everything that Dante's into. Yeah, as you travel 473 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: with him across the three Realms. 474 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Virgil's really great. 475 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: Did you know this? 476 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: Beatrice is really great too. 477 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: Not only is Virgil really great, but we're basically best friends. Now. 478 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, he liked me. 479 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Aeneid is the story of Aneas, who 480 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: flees the destruction of Troy and ultimately conquers Italy to 481 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: become the ancestor of the Romans. The first six books 482 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: of this epic cover his journey to Italy, but it's 483 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: not like a direct journey, like there's a joint through 484 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: the underworld, for example, and that's key as an influence 485 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: on Dante. And then books seven through twelve if the 486 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: Aeneid concerned the wars in Italy, So the first book 487 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: is a road trip, very much in the spirit of 488 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: the Odyssey, and the second book is very much in 489 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: the spirit of the Iliad because it's concerned mostly with 490 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: this big war. Now, to be clear, this in this 491 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: treatment in others, the founding of Rome and the Roman 492 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: people is greatly embellished by myth and literature. I mean, 493 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: that's again, that's kind of that's basically what Virgil set 494 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: out to do. Right. 495 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: Virgil is not like Herodotus or Thucydides, people in the 496 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: ancient world who were to some extent concerned with trying 497 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: to create an accurate historical record of events. He's like, 498 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: he's he's got he's telling a good story, and it 499 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: has a political agenda. 500 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: Right, And but that political agenda does, in very strong 501 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,719 Speaker 1: terms concern Augustus. But while Augustus had again heard very 502 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: apparently heard very flattering parts of the work prior to publication, 503 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: it's thought that he might not have heard all of it, 504 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: because there are parts of the work that also cast Augustus, 505 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: or at least his his analog Aneas, in a more 506 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: flawed light, you know. And idea is that his ascension 507 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: and long term legacy are not completely assured. And we'll 508 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: get into some examples of that as we go. But 509 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: any rate, it's a book that's very concerned with prophesizing 510 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: the future of Rome, mostly saying great things are ahead, 511 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: but sometimes with little caveats, like bringing up probably great 512 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: things are ahead, but watch watch out for this or that. Right. 513 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: And at the end of book two we have the 514 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: omen of Ascanius is burning hair, So Ascanius, who is 515 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: also believe called LULUs. At times he's he's like a 516 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: little boy. At this point point, he is the he 517 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: is the son of Aeneas. He's eventually going to become 518 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: the king of the Latin city state of Alba Longa, 519 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: and is uh and in disrespect. He's you know, he 520 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: can kind of loop him in as being one of 521 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: the founders of the Roman race. But again, his father 522 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: a Eneas is this position as an ancestor of Romulus 523 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: and Remus. He's the hero of Troy. He's fled the 524 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: burning city of Troy with his son after receiving uh 525 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: he after he receives this omen of the burning hair 526 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: from the god Jupiter. Uh. So his son's hair catches 527 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: a flame. And there's you know, some back and forth 528 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: over this, and and and and and it becomes like 529 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: it's like a divine flame, a sort of soft, harmless fire, uh, 530 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: that is around and his brow like a crown. So 531 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: even here we have some there's some room to interpret it. 532 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: You can think of it as a like a crown 533 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: of flame, hair of flame, halo aurra and so forth. 534 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: So his son's head appears with flame on it, and 535 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: this seems to be delivering a message from the gods. 536 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: Right, But of course he's not completely sure. So he's like, 537 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, mighty Jupiter, if this is a sign, give 538 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: me another one. And so there's like a shooting star 539 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: and and and Virgil, you know, has a lot of 540 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: a lot of fun with this, you know, poetically comparing 541 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: the two. But you know, so ultimately we also have 542 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: the connection here to the burning city that they are 543 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: now going to have to escape. But it's a great 544 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: omen a signifier of deliverance there, you know. And again 545 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: their direct comparisons to be made between the tail the 546 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: shooting star and a flaming arrow. And again there's this 547 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 1: idea that y'all got to get out of here and 548 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: go on to great things, in other words, the founding 549 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: of Rome and so forth. Anna Rogerson in twenty seventeen's 550 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: Virgils Zoskanias writes that this episode illuminates quote the path 551 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: that must be taken in order ultimately to achieve the 552 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: Roman dream. But she also stresses that the fire also 553 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: carries with it other associations quote, hinting at different potential 554 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 1: outcomes and reminding us again that his role as a 555 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: sign and guaranteur of a Roman future is not as 556 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: secure or as patent as it might seem. 557 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, especially if I'm interpreting this right. I 558 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: don't know at all if this is what Rogerson is 559 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: getting at, but the idea of a fire appearing around 560 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 2: his son's brow could have it. On one hand, it 561 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: could resemble this imagery like halo imagery that we see 562 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: in other cases, where it's sort of like an anointing 563 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: by the gods or a showing of divine favor light 564 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: showing around the head. And I'll mention another example of 565 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: that in a minute. But also the idea of fire 566 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: appearing around the child's head has the connotation of danger, right, 567 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: and so it's like both at the same time. Do 568 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: you think that's at all what Rogerson is getting at here? 569 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: That that I believe that I believe that's that's what 570 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: they're getting at here. And and it does match up 571 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: with with other arguments I've seen, you know that that 572 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: that Virgil is of course talking about the greatness of 573 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: Rome and the greatness of his boss, but also adding 574 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: in these warnings and hints, you know, these uh uh, 575 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, speaking speaking truth to power at least a 576 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: little bit u through the poetry. Interesting, so Ascanius and 577 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: his father flee Troy with Aneas carrying his own elderly 578 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: father on his back. There are some great depictions of this, 579 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: you have, like a cross generational trio escaping the burning city. 580 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: And so there are all, you know, various images where 581 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: you'll have Aneas with this older man, huge older man 582 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: on his shoulders, kind of piggyback style, and then here's 583 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: the young and behind him kind of like tugging on 584 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: his his clothing a little bit like Dad, are we 585 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: there yet? Have we founded Rome yet? And so forth. Now, 586 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: later on in book seven, Aneas's last wife of Lavinia, 587 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: she has an episode with burning hair as well. I 588 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: told you there was going to be a second one. 589 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: Her hair catches fire during a sacrifice at the altar 590 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: of the gods. And I'm going to read a bit here. 591 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: This is in a translation, of course, from the Aeneid. 592 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: While the old king lit fires at the altars with 593 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: a pure tortch, the girl Lavinia with him. It seemed 594 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: her long hair caught, her head dress caught in crackling flame, 595 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: her queenly tresses blazed, her jeweled crown blazed, mantled, Then 596 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: in smoke and russet light, she scattered divine fire throughout 597 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: all the house. No one could hold that site anything 598 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: but hair raising marvelous. And it was read by Sears 599 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: to mean the girl would have renown in glorious days 600 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: to come. But that she brought a great war on 601 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: her people, And I was reading about interpretation of this 602 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: by John E. Rexen from nineteen sixty one in fire 603 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: Symbolism in the Eneid, and this author wrote, these flames 604 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: presented both destructive and constructive aspects. Laviniu's people would be 605 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: involved in the conflagration of war with the Trojans, but 606 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: a marriage torch would unite her with Aeneas, who had 607 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: found a new city in Italy named Lavinium after her Ah. 608 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: So it's almost that same duality we interpreted with the 609 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: crown of fire around Buscanius's head. 610 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's really it's really potent 611 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: when you think about it, Like the idea of any 612 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: divine being giving you messages and laying out your course 613 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: for you, you know, making sure that you're walking, you know, 614 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 1: a conditioned path like that's at both powerful but also 615 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: terrifying because in all these various traditions, you know, we 616 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: know what sorts of fates the gods sometimes lay in 617 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: front of our heroes and heroines. You know, it's not 618 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: all it's not all roses. Sometimes there is a burning 619 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: city and so forth. 620 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, this actually connected for me to something that is 621 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: in the Iliad itself. We talked about how Virgil he 622 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 2: bases his epic in part on the epics of Homer, 623 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: but this came up a few years back when we 624 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: did episodes on the religious imagery of the Halo. You 625 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: can look up those older episodes if you want. There's 626 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: a good bit of overlap with what we're talking about today. Actually, 627 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: but this specific connection with the Iliad comes in book eighteen. 628 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 2: So I was thinking about the passage where the great 629 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 2: warrior Achilles he finds out that his bosom companion, a Patroclus, 630 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: has been killed in battle by the Trojan prince Hector, 631 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 2: and Achilles reacts sort of by losing his mind. He's 632 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 2: filled with grief and rage and a thirst for vengeance. 633 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: And so the Greeks and the Trojans in this part 634 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 2: of the poem are fighting over the right to retrieve 635 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 2: Petroclus's body from the field of battle. And then the 636 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: goddess Athena puts this godlike power and aura into Achilles 637 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: so that he will be able to terrify the Trojans 638 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: and drive them into a route. And so this is 639 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: from the translation by Caroline Alexander. Achilles beloved of Zeus arose, 640 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: and Athena casts the tasseled aegis about his mighty shoulders. 641 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: She shining among goddesses. Encircled round his head a cloud 642 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 2: of gold, and from it blazed bright, shining fire. Okay, 643 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 2: so maybe a little bit different. Maybe not hair directly 644 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: on fire, but a cloud of gold around the head 645 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: from which blazes bright fire. It goes on to say, 646 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 2: and as when smoke rising from a city reaches the 647 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 2: clear high air from a distant island, which enemy men 648 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: fight round, and they, the whole day long, are pitted 649 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: in hateful warfare around the city walls. But with the 650 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: sun's setting, the beacon fires blaze torch upon torch, and 651 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: flaring upward, the glare becomes visible to those who live around, 652 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: in the hope that they might come with ships as 653 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: allies against destruction. So from a killer head the radiance 654 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: reached the clear high air, and going away from the wall, 655 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: he stood at the ditch. Nor did he mix with 656 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: the Achaeans, for he observed his mother's knowing command, and 657 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 2: standing there he shouted, and from the distance Pallas Athena 658 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: cried out. Too unspeakable was the uproar he incited in 659 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 2: the Trojans, as when a clarion voice is heard, when 660 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 2: cries the trumpet of life, destroying enemies who surround the city. 661 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: Such then was the clarion voice of Eacides. And when 662 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: they heard the brazen voice of Eacides, the spirit in 663 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 2: each man was thrown in turmoil. The horses, with their 664 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: fine manes, wheeled their chariots back, for in their hearts 665 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 2: they forebode distress to come. And the charioteers were struck 666 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 2: from their senses when they saw the weariless, terrible fire 667 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: above the head of Peleus's great hearted son blazing. And 668 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: this the gleaming eyed goddess Athena caused to blaze. So 669 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 2: again it's sort of an edge case because it doesn't 670 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: say directly the hair is on fire, in that it's 671 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: literally being consumed by flame. But it's this more common 672 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: imagery we get of a radiance that appears around or 673 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 2: over the top of the head and is described as 674 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: burning like fire or burning like his hair were on fire. 675 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: And in fact it comes back more towards Virgil's time period, 676 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: the context of the early Roman Empire. You can think 677 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: of cases of imagery like this that appear in say, 678 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: the Christian New Testament. So in the New Testament, in 679 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 2: the Book of Acts, chapter two, we get the story 680 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 2: of the Pentecost, which is the anointing by the Holy 681 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: Spirit of Jesus's apostles in Jerusalem, fifty days after the 682 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 2: Resurrection has taken place. And this part says that in 683 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: the NRSV translation quote, when the day of Pentecost had come, 684 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 2: they were all together in one place, and suddenly from 685 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: heaven there came a sound, like the rush of a 686 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 2: violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they 687 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 2: were divided. Tongues as of fire appeared among them, and 688 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 2: a tongue rested on each of them. All of them 689 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak 690 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 2: in other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability. 691 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: So in this case it does not seem intended to 692 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: terrify like it did in the Iliad. But what's sort 693 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 2: of common in all these stories across the Eneid by Virgil, 694 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: across the Iliad, and across the New Testament is the 695 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: appearance of fire or radiance above the crown of a 696 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: human head, to show in some way that God or 697 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 2: the gods have intervened on behalf of this person, either 698 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 2: to make them powerful in battle, to give them new 699 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: powers of speech or understanding, or to show a kind 700 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: of prophecy about them, to mark them as destined in 701 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: some way. 702 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: And then, yeah, you can imagine there's some crossover here. 703 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: Certainly we can look to various examples from the Bible too, 704 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: where there's people are in flames but they're not hurt, 705 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: or God speaking through the fire, the burning bush, and 706 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: so forth. So yeah, well, once you have these images 707 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: out there, they kind of there, they do kind of 708 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: brush up against each other and infect each other with 709 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: their their there ares. 710 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you want to learn more about the 711 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 2: Halo and the Ara, like I said, we did a 712 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 2: whole series on that a few years back. You can 713 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 2: go into our archives and check out. Ultimately, I feel 714 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: like a lot of the examples we were able to 715 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 2: turn up today I think do bleed more into the 716 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 2: halo are territory than into the more literal hair burning 717 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 2: territory that we were thinking about. So I don't know, 718 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 2: I want I guess this episode is one where we 719 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: turned up more dead ends than usual. But uh, maybe 720 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 2: that's useful to you. To you the listener to to 721 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 2: hear what it's like when you expect to find certain 722 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 2: things out there and you come up cold. 723 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: Well, at least with the second example from the Ania, 724 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: it seems to sort of at least start off like 725 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: hair catching on fire, where they're like, oh my god, 726 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: our hair's on fire. Wait, hold up, just an omen, 727 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: It's okay, put their water jugs down. So there is 728 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: there is at least a direct connection there. 729 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 2: I think the aenead is the closest we got to 730 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 2: what I had in mind. But like we said, and 731 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 2: maybe there are a bunch of great examples we just 732 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 2: didn't come across. 733 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I don't know, there could be examples 734 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: that are kind of that where we lose that emphasis 735 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: and translation. So I don't know. It's like the comparison 736 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: of hair to fire and all these various auras and 737 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: halo effects. You know, they do kind of bleed together 738 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: and they confuse the topic of it. And again, there 739 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: there's no shortage of modern examples that are far clearer. Again, 740 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: lots of fire, elemental beings and fantasy and probably in 741 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: science fiction as well. I didn't look there as much, 742 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: but you know, so many examples, certainly in the illustrated medium. 743 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: There I ran across like multiple superheroes that have like 744 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: hair of fire, So I do think you're onto something 745 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: with that possible connection to modern depictions of hair and 746 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: that kind of like propping up more and more examples 747 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: of fire, elemental beings with flaming hair, flaming beard. 748 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 2: Speaking of elementals, this has actually been on my list 749 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: for a bit. I've been thinking we should come and 750 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 2: do an episode on the elementals, like going back to Paris, 751 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 2: Elsis and stuff. 752 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I'd be up for that. Yeah, all 753 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: the way from ancient traditions on up to dungeons and dragons. 754 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 2: But okay, I think that does it for burning hair 755 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 2: for me. 756 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: All Right, we'll go ahead and close it off then, 757 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: but we'd love to hear from everyone out there if 758 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: you have thoughts on anything we discussed here, or examples 759 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: that we didn't bring up that we should sin them in, 760 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: and we'll cover them perhaps on a future episode of 761 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: Listener Mail. We're still doing listener Mails, They're just not 762 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: happening every week. They're going to occur every month or so, 763 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: and we're gonna they're gonna be longer. They're gonna be 764 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: in the place of Core episodes. Our Core episodes, of course, 765 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: are key science and culture episodes. They published on Tuesdays 766 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short form episode, 767 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 768 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 769 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: We're running those Weird House Cinema rewind episodes on Mondays now, 770 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: and of course regular Vault episodes reruns of Core episodes 771 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: those occur on Saturdays. 772 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 773 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 774 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 775 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 776 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 777 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:29,760 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 778 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 779 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 780 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.