1 00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:11,445 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:12,765 --> 00:00:17,205 Speaker 2: On Saturday, September twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, neighbors on a 3 00:00:17,285 --> 00:00:20,805 Speaker 2: quiet street in a quiet neighborhood in Clearwater, Florida were 4 00:00:20,805 --> 00:00:25,445 Speaker 2: getting worried. But in this case, the suspicious activity wasn't 5 00:00:25,485 --> 00:00:27,765 Speaker 2: from anything that was actually going on. It was kind 6 00:00:27,765 --> 00:00:31,245 Speaker 2: of the opposite. The neighbors were concerned because things were 7 00:00:31,245 --> 00:00:33,085 Speaker 2: a little bit too quiet. 8 00:00:33,365 --> 00:00:34,445 Speaker 1: They had their eyes. 9 00:00:34,205 --> 00:00:36,925 Speaker 2: On a little, one story white house at ten thirty 10 00:00:36,925 --> 00:00:40,405 Speaker 2: three Flushing Avenue, where eighty eight year old David Swan 11 00:00:40,565 --> 00:00:44,965 Speaker 2: and his wife, eighty year old Minu Swan lived. They 12 00:00:45,045 --> 00:00:47,485 Speaker 2: had lived in that home for the past twenty years. 13 00:00:48,045 --> 00:00:51,005 Speaker 2: Mina had actually lived there for forty years. This was 14 00:00:51,005 --> 00:00:54,045 Speaker 2: a second marriage for both David and Mina. She had 15 00:00:54,085 --> 00:00:56,605 Speaker 2: lived there with her first husband until he passed away, 16 00:00:56,725 --> 00:00:59,045 Speaker 2: and then later made a home there with David, her 17 00:00:59,045 --> 00:01:03,005 Speaker 2: second husband. According to friends and family, David and Mina 18 00:01:03,285 --> 00:01:05,845 Speaker 2: were in a very happy marriage. They had had no 19 00:01:05,885 --> 00:01:10,565 Speaker 2: known enemies, and they had a really regular routine. They 20 00:01:10,645 --> 00:01:14,045 Speaker 2: always came out to get their newspaper. They had a 21 00:01:14,045 --> 00:01:17,005 Speaker 2: neighbor across the street named Joel Locke who lived there 22 00:01:17,085 --> 00:01:20,725 Speaker 2: with his father, John Locke. Now Joel told police that 23 00:01:20,805 --> 00:01:23,965 Speaker 2: he last saw the Swans on Thursday afternoon at around 24 00:01:24,005 --> 00:01:28,845 Speaker 2: three pm. Then on Friday they never walked outside to 25 00:01:28,845 --> 00:01:33,805 Speaker 2: get the paper. Then over the weekend, Joel said he 26 00:01:33,965 --> 00:01:37,285 Speaker 2: noticed that the Swan's lights were on, but again on Saturday, 27 00:01:37,325 --> 00:01:40,325 Speaker 2: there was no sign of either David or Mina. So 28 00:01:40,445 --> 00:01:49,005 Speaker 2: by Saturday he told police he was getting concerned. David 29 00:01:49,045 --> 00:01:51,365 Speaker 2: and Mina had married later in life, so they never 30 00:01:51,405 --> 00:01:55,325 Speaker 2: had any children together, but they had seven children between them. 31 00:01:55,885 --> 00:01:58,325 Speaker 2: Both of them were involved in each other's children's lives. 32 00:01:58,325 --> 00:02:02,965 Speaker 2: The families were close. Finally, on Saturday, a little before 33 00:02:03,005 --> 00:02:07,285 Speaker 2: two pm, Joel got in touch with Mina's daughter, Noel Divine. 34 00:02:08,525 --> 00:02:11,045 Speaker 2: It says in media reports that Noel had a key 35 00:02:11,125 --> 00:02:13,605 Speaker 2: to the house, but in the end she didn't need 36 00:02:13,645 --> 00:02:15,965 Speaker 2: to use it because Noel came to the neighborhood she 37 00:02:16,045 --> 00:02:20,685 Speaker 2: lived nearby, and she and Joel approached David and Mina's house. 38 00:02:21,445 --> 00:02:23,765 Speaker 2: They went in through the back door and it was unlocked, 39 00:02:24,405 --> 00:02:26,805 Speaker 2: and what they saw when they walked in that house 40 00:02:27,005 --> 00:02:30,685 Speaker 2: was horrific. David and Mina were at the kitchen table, 41 00:02:30,845 --> 00:02:34,565 Speaker 2: slumped over in pools of blood. Forensic testing revealed they 42 00:02:34,565 --> 00:02:37,845 Speaker 2: had been dead for at least a day, Joel Loppe 43 00:02:38,005 --> 00:02:42,725 Speaker 2: told WFLA news Channel eight. Quote, Noel could not handle it. 44 00:02:43,165 --> 00:02:45,285 Speaker 2: She ran out the door and I was with her 45 00:02:45,485 --> 00:02:50,765 Speaker 2: right behind end quote. David and Mina were shot execution style. 46 00:02:51,205 --> 00:02:54,245 Speaker 2: They were sitting at the kitchen table. David had been 47 00:02:54,285 --> 00:02:58,765 Speaker 2: shot once, Mina multiple times. There was nothing stolen and 48 00:02:58,845 --> 00:03:00,205 Speaker 2: no sign of forest entry. 49 00:03:03,485 --> 00:03:04,565 Speaker 1: Of course, there. 50 00:03:04,405 --> 00:03:07,285 Speaker 2: Were a lot of media reports after this case because 51 00:03:07,325 --> 00:03:10,765 Speaker 2: it was shocking the murder of two elderly people, And 52 00:03:11,005 --> 00:03:13,125 Speaker 2: what we kept hearing on the news was that this 53 00:03:13,245 --> 00:03:16,085 Speaker 2: shock the town of Clearwater, which is a place probably 54 00:03:16,165 --> 00:03:20,805 Speaker 2: best known for having a large presence of Scientology church members. 55 00:03:21,725 --> 00:03:24,405 Speaker 2: A few early commenters on the case kind of wondered 56 00:03:24,445 --> 00:03:26,445 Speaker 2: if Scientologists could have had something to do with it. 57 00:03:26,485 --> 00:03:28,965 Speaker 2: But let me just say right off the bat, there 58 00:03:29,005 --> 00:03:33,125 Speaker 2: is zero indication that Scientology had anything to do with 59 00:03:33,205 --> 00:03:35,525 Speaker 2: these murders. So before I get a lot of calls, 60 00:03:35,565 --> 00:03:39,965 Speaker 2: I just want to say that upfront, all we heard 61 00:03:40,045 --> 00:03:42,685 Speaker 2: on the news was that David and Mina were this 62 00:03:42,805 --> 00:03:47,685 Speaker 2: super happy older couple, and the headline has basically been 63 00:03:48,125 --> 00:03:51,245 Speaker 2: who would want to kill this nice elderly couple who. 64 00:03:51,165 --> 00:03:55,845 Speaker 1: Had no known enemies? But as hele Gong. 65 00:03:55,965 --> 00:03:59,485 Speaker 2: Listeners know, I always try to look beyond the headlines, 66 00:03:59,605 --> 00:04:02,365 Speaker 2: so I've spent a lot of time doing a deep 67 00:04:02,485 --> 00:04:05,965 Speaker 2: dive into the probate records that followed these deaths. By 68 00:04:06,005 --> 00:04:09,445 Speaker 2: the way, thank you Pinalis County, Florida, because this county 69 00:04:09,485 --> 00:04:12,045 Speaker 2: does have a really good open record system. 70 00:04:14,045 --> 00:04:14,325 Speaker 1: Now. 71 00:04:14,525 --> 00:04:19,005 Speaker 2: Joel Locke, the neighbor, gave more details to another news organization. 72 00:04:19,765 --> 00:04:22,525 Speaker 2: He said that when he was in that kitchen, he 73 00:04:22,645 --> 00:04:26,325 Speaker 2: saw signs that food had been prepared. He said quote 74 00:04:26,685 --> 00:04:29,525 Speaker 2: she meaning Mina, was face down and he was on 75 00:04:29,565 --> 00:04:32,485 Speaker 2: his back. She was on one side of the coffee table. 76 00:04:32,645 --> 00:04:38,845 Speaker 2: He was on the other side. So at least in 77 00:04:38,885 --> 00:04:42,125 Speaker 2: the beginning, it seems as though they were just hanging 78 00:04:42,165 --> 00:04:45,005 Speaker 2: out at home about to eat dinner when the killer 79 00:04:45,085 --> 00:04:49,365 Speaker 2: walked in and shot them. Their obituaries focused on how 80 00:04:49,405 --> 00:04:53,085 Speaker 2: happy David and Minus Swan were. According to his obituary, 81 00:04:53,605 --> 00:04:56,965 Speaker 2: after retirement, David had fulfilled a lifelong dream of travel. 82 00:04:57,605 --> 00:05:00,925 Speaker 2: He and Mina loved to have new adventures. He hiked 83 00:05:00,925 --> 00:05:03,365 Speaker 2: the Appalachian Trail in two thousand and two, and his 84 00:05:03,445 --> 00:05:06,885 Speaker 2: trail name was twinkletoes. Hyked part of it with him 85 00:05:06,885 --> 00:05:08,925 Speaker 2: and her trail name was Artzy because she had been 86 00:05:08,965 --> 00:05:12,885 Speaker 2: an art teacher. David had a private pilot's license. He 87 00:05:12,925 --> 00:05:17,485 Speaker 2: and Mina traveled everywhere. They went to Europe, China, Chile, Argentina, 88 00:05:17,645 --> 00:05:21,445 Speaker 2: the Panama Canal, Australia, New Zealand, the South Pacific. This 89 00:05:21,565 --> 00:05:25,445 Speaker 2: list goes on and on. But again, even though they 90 00:05:25,485 --> 00:05:28,845 Speaker 2: appeared to be living this idyllic lifestyle and apparently David 91 00:05:28,845 --> 00:05:32,525 Speaker 2: had been this very successful CPA who was retired, I 92 00:05:32,645 --> 00:05:36,485 Speaker 2: wondered what the real story was because now the police 93 00:05:36,525 --> 00:05:38,725 Speaker 2: have admitted they're pretty much stumped. 94 00:05:39,925 --> 00:05:41,005 Speaker 1: After these murders. 95 00:05:41,365 --> 00:05:44,885 Speaker 2: They had no time of death and no suspects, and 96 00:05:45,205 --> 00:05:48,205 Speaker 2: over three years later, this case is still unsolved. 97 00:05:49,005 --> 00:05:51,805 Speaker 1: So who could have killed David and Minus one? 98 00:05:52,445 --> 00:05:55,525 Speaker 2: Could it be someone like a tradesperson, Could it be 99 00:05:55,565 --> 00:06:00,365 Speaker 2: a serial killer or someone targeting elderly residents, or could 100 00:06:00,405 --> 00:06:03,645 Speaker 2: it be one of David's former business associates from Chicago, 101 00:06:04,645 --> 00:06:07,165 Speaker 2: or was it some one a lot closer to home. 102 00:06:08,485 --> 00:06:13,405 Speaker 2: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. If 103 00:06:13,445 --> 00:06:15,205 Speaker 2: you have a case you'd like me and my team 104 00:06:15,245 --> 00:06:17,605 Speaker 2: to look into, you can reach out to us at 105 00:06:17,645 --> 00:06:20,565 Speaker 2: our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven 106 00:06:20,605 --> 00:06:24,085 Speaker 2: four four six one four five. That's six seven eight 107 00:06:24,285 --> 00:07:03,405 Speaker 2: seven four four, six, one four or five. A week 108 00:07:03,525 --> 00:07:07,845 Speaker 2: after David and Minus Swans were found, Chief Daniel Slaughter 109 00:07:07,885 --> 00:07:10,645 Speaker 2: at the Clearwater Police Department held a press conference to 110 00:07:10,645 --> 00:07:11,645 Speaker 2: talk about the murders. 111 00:07:12,245 --> 00:07:13,125 Speaker 1: This is what he said. 112 00:07:13,965 --> 00:07:16,605 Speaker 3: What I can share in the investigation is that David 113 00:07:16,645 --> 00:07:19,845 Speaker 3: Emina we're seen alive on Thursday September twenty seventh in 114 00:07:19,965 --> 00:07:24,245 Speaker 3: the early afternoon. From the investigation, we are looking closely 115 00:07:24,285 --> 00:07:27,525 Speaker 3: at a twenty four hour window from Thursday September twenty 116 00:07:27,525 --> 00:07:31,405 Speaker 3: seventh around three pm to Friday September twenty eighth about. 117 00:07:31,165 --> 00:07:32,805 Speaker 4: At the same time three pm. 118 00:07:33,005 --> 00:07:35,845 Speaker 3: Although our investigation is looking closely at that window as 119 00:07:35,885 --> 00:07:38,885 Speaker 3: a suspected period of time when this offensive, these two 120 00:07:38,965 --> 00:07:42,245 Speaker 3: murders occurred, the investigators are also looking at deeds outside 121 00:07:42,245 --> 00:07:45,485 Speaker 3: of that window. I could share that David and Mina 122 00:07:45,805 --> 00:07:48,885 Speaker 3: were both shot and killed, and has previously reported our 123 00:07:48,925 --> 00:07:50,205 Speaker 3: homicide victims. 124 00:07:50,685 --> 00:07:51,525 Speaker 4: The evidence does. 125 00:07:51,405 --> 00:07:54,805 Speaker 3: Not indicate that the offender, I'm sorry, The evidence does 126 00:07:54,845 --> 00:07:57,085 Speaker 3: indicate that the offender came with the intent to kill 127 00:07:57,165 --> 00:07:59,765 Speaker 3: David and Miana. This does not appear to be a 128 00:07:59,845 --> 00:08:04,045 Speaker 3: random out being vigilant and following simple common crime prevention 129 00:08:04,285 --> 00:08:07,085 Speaker 3: techniques like locking your old, your car doors, your home doors, 130 00:08:07,125 --> 00:08:09,205 Speaker 3: your garage doors is always a very crudent thing to 131 00:08:09,245 --> 00:08:11,605 Speaker 3: do for safety, but we do not believe there is 132 00:08:11,925 --> 00:08:14,125 Speaker 3: any reason for the rest of the community to be concerned. 133 00:08:14,645 --> 00:08:17,965 Speaker 3: Clear Water Detectives and Penell's County Sheriff's Office friends especialists 134 00:08:17,965 --> 00:08:21,805 Speaker 3: spent over forty hours working in the crime scene, documenting 135 00:08:21,845 --> 00:08:24,885 Speaker 3: the crime scene, processing the crime scene, and collecting trace evidence. 136 00:08:25,405 --> 00:08:28,925 Speaker 3: The collection trace evidence is very time consuming. Any person 137 00:08:28,965 --> 00:08:31,805 Speaker 3: that entered the Swan home would leave trace evidence behind, 138 00:08:31,845 --> 00:08:33,165 Speaker 3: and that would be in the form of pair. 139 00:08:33,125 --> 00:08:36,765 Speaker 4: Fibers, skin cells, touch, DNA, a variety of different things. 140 00:08:37,445 --> 00:08:41,685 Speaker 3: That those traceable substances were the very vitally important for 141 00:08:41,725 --> 00:08:44,165 Speaker 3: our investigation, and so it's very important that we. 142 00:08:44,125 --> 00:08:46,845 Speaker 4: Collect them in a very methodical manner and in a 143 00:08:46,925 --> 00:08:47,925 Speaker 4: very appropriate manner. 144 00:08:48,485 --> 00:08:50,765 Speaker 3: We know that in murder cases there's usually some form 145 00:08:50,805 --> 00:08:54,325 Speaker 3: of a victim offender relationship. Investigators will therefore speak to 146 00:08:54,365 --> 00:08:56,765 Speaker 3: anyone that had a relationship with the Swans. 147 00:08:56,565 --> 00:08:58,925 Speaker 4: Whether it's family, friends, or business dealings. 148 00:08:59,325 --> 00:09:01,845 Speaker 3: We're going to talk to everyone, and then anyone involved 149 00:09:01,925 --> 00:09:03,765 Speaker 3: or connected to the family until we get to the 150 00:09:03,805 --> 00:09:04,325 Speaker 3: bottom of it. 151 00:09:07,645 --> 00:09:12,205 Speaker 2: So let's break down those statements. First, Chief Slaughter kind 152 00:09:12,205 --> 00:09:14,725 Speaker 2: of clarified the window of time when David and Mina 153 00:09:14,805 --> 00:09:18,285 Speaker 2: were killed. The last time the Swans were seen alive 154 00:09:18,405 --> 00:09:21,725 Speaker 2: that was verifiable was Thursday, September twenty seventh at around 155 00:09:21,765 --> 00:09:24,805 Speaker 2: three pm. Remember that's when the neighbors saw them come 156 00:09:24,845 --> 00:09:28,325 Speaker 2: outside and pick up those newspapers. They didn't come out 157 00:09:28,365 --> 00:09:31,605 Speaker 2: of their house on Friday or Saturday when Noel and 158 00:09:31,685 --> 00:09:35,485 Speaker 2: Joel went into the house. So this is why investigators 159 00:09:35,485 --> 00:09:39,125 Speaker 2: were concentrating on the twenty four hour window between Thursday 160 00:09:39,205 --> 00:09:42,725 Speaker 2: at three pm and Friday at three pm. If the 161 00:09:42,805 --> 00:09:45,885 Speaker 2: neighbor's reports are true, if the lights were left on 162 00:09:46,165 --> 00:09:49,605 Speaker 2: all night on Thursday night, Thursday night, in my opinion, 163 00:09:49,765 --> 00:09:52,725 Speaker 2: becomes the most likely time when they could have been murdered, 164 00:09:52,845 --> 00:09:56,565 Speaker 2: especially if we believe Joel. If there was food on 165 00:09:56,605 --> 00:09:58,405 Speaker 2: the counter that looked like they were about to eat dinner, 166 00:09:59,205 --> 00:10:03,005 Speaker 2: the lights were on and the door was unlocked. Also, 167 00:10:03,165 --> 00:10:06,445 Speaker 2: the Tampa Bay Times talked to a neighbor, Bob Anderson. 168 00:10:06,925 --> 00:10:09,765 Speaker 2: Bob said his wife had gone by the Swan house 169 00:10:09,805 --> 00:10:12,485 Speaker 2: on Friday to drop off some pamphlets and that nobody 170 00:10:12,605 --> 00:10:19,165 Speaker 2: entered the door. Noel talked to reporters about her experience 171 00:10:19,245 --> 00:10:22,565 Speaker 2: going into the house. She said, quote, when I heard 172 00:10:22,605 --> 00:10:25,045 Speaker 2: the papers were building up, I just panicked. 173 00:10:25,565 --> 00:10:26,765 Speaker 1: End quote. 174 00:10:26,925 --> 00:10:29,405 Speaker 2: As she drove to her mother's house, she said that 175 00:10:29,485 --> 00:10:31,485 Speaker 2: she was trying to tell herself there could be a 176 00:10:31,565 --> 00:10:34,805 Speaker 2: rational explanation, maybe her mom and stepdad went off on 177 00:10:34,845 --> 00:10:38,365 Speaker 2: a last minute trip. Then once she went into that 178 00:10:38,485 --> 00:10:43,365 Speaker 2: house and saw those bodies, her world fell apart. She said, 179 00:10:43,445 --> 00:10:46,045 Speaker 2: quote it was just a moment that I would never 180 00:10:46,085 --> 00:10:47,485 Speaker 2: wish on anyone. 181 00:10:47,565 --> 00:10:53,885 Speaker 1: It's my mother, and I couldn't help her. End quote. 182 00:10:54,125 --> 00:10:57,965 Speaker 2: At the press conference and also later, law enforcements made 183 00:10:57,965 --> 00:11:00,845 Speaker 2: a point to say this was likely an isolated attack, 184 00:11:01,485 --> 00:11:04,165 Speaker 2: and they said the community did not need to be worried, 185 00:11:04,645 --> 00:11:07,405 Speaker 2: which I think is a little bit misleading because what 186 00:11:07,445 --> 00:11:10,485 Speaker 2: they mean is that this is a person who is 187 00:11:10,565 --> 00:11:14,485 Speaker 2: targeting this one specifically. It's not some random person out there. 188 00:11:14,525 --> 00:11:18,085 Speaker 2: But in my opinion, if someone killed a person, whatever 189 00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:21,645 Speaker 2: their motivation was, and they're still out there, someone could 190 00:11:21,685 --> 00:11:25,245 Speaker 2: find out about those killings, confront that person, and they 191 00:11:25,245 --> 00:11:27,725 Speaker 2: could be in danger. So I get what the police 192 00:11:27,725 --> 00:11:29,765 Speaker 2: are trying to do. Here they don't want the community 193 00:11:29,805 --> 00:11:32,485 Speaker 2: to panic. But I do feel like, and I hear 194 00:11:32,525 --> 00:11:35,845 Speaker 2: this statement often about the public not needing to be concerned. 195 00:11:35,885 --> 00:11:42,245 Speaker 2: I don't think it's always that valid. So let's take 196 00:11:42,245 --> 00:11:44,165 Speaker 2: a closer look at this couple. We're going to see 197 00:11:44,285 --> 00:11:47,805 Speaker 2: very soon that there are two different versions of their 198 00:11:47,845 --> 00:11:51,445 Speaker 2: life story that start to emerge, the official version and 199 00:11:51,485 --> 00:11:53,405 Speaker 2: what I call kind of the unofficial version. 200 00:11:53,885 --> 00:11:56,045 Speaker 1: This isn't meant with any kind of disrespect at all. 201 00:11:56,085 --> 00:12:00,205 Speaker 2: By the way, everyone has secrets, but sometimes if you 202 00:12:00,245 --> 00:12:03,085 Speaker 2: want to find out who killed someone who wanted them dead, 203 00:12:03,565 --> 00:12:05,765 Speaker 2: you have to look behind some of these headlines that 204 00:12:05,805 --> 00:12:08,445 Speaker 2: are just superficial. You have to try and discover some 205 00:12:08,485 --> 00:12:12,645 Speaker 2: of their secrets. So we know the killing was very 206 00:12:12,725 --> 00:12:15,765 Speaker 2: personal and that the Swans were targeted. So the question 207 00:12:16,005 --> 00:12:20,965 Speaker 2: is who could have wanted to kill them and why. 208 00:12:22,005 --> 00:12:25,365 Speaker 2: David Sidney Swann, Junior, and this is from his obituary, 209 00:12:25,765 --> 00:12:29,445 Speaker 2: was born on April fifteenth, nineteen thirty. He was raised 210 00:12:29,445 --> 00:12:32,725 Speaker 2: in Shreveport, Louisiana. He enlisted in the Navy, and after 211 00:12:32,765 --> 00:12:34,925 Speaker 2: his naval service, he went to work for an accounting 212 00:12:34,965 --> 00:12:38,325 Speaker 2: firm called Swift and Company in Chicago. He met his 213 00:12:38,365 --> 00:12:42,085 Speaker 2: first wife, whose name was Eva Sorenson, in Chicago. He 214 00:12:42,165 --> 00:12:48,645 Speaker 2: graduated from Northwestern University and became a CPA. He later 215 00:12:48,725 --> 00:12:51,325 Speaker 2: worked at another firm, and he and his wife had 216 00:12:51,325 --> 00:12:55,725 Speaker 2: four kids, Julia, Janet, Stephen, and a son named David. 217 00:12:56,525 --> 00:12:59,125 Speaker 2: So David and his first wife raised their family. Then 218 00:12:59,165 --> 00:13:01,965 Speaker 2: in the early nineteen eighties, they moved to Clearwater, Florida. 219 00:13:02,365 --> 00:13:05,285 Speaker 2: David set up his own practice doing taxes, and eventually 220 00:13:05,605 --> 00:13:10,765 Speaker 2: David and his first wife retired there. That's what I 221 00:13:10,805 --> 00:13:13,565 Speaker 2: saw in the obituary. But there's something in that part 222 00:13:13,605 --> 00:13:16,685 Speaker 2: of my brain that gets activated when I have insomnia, 223 00:13:16,725 --> 00:13:19,325 Speaker 2: which is often, so one night I woke up and 224 00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:22,605 Speaker 2: started looking through court records. It was like two am 225 00:13:22,685 --> 00:13:25,085 Speaker 2: that night, and I found some court documents that mention 226 00:13:25,205 --> 00:13:29,525 Speaker 2: a woman connected to David Swan named MacEwan. These court 227 00:13:29,565 --> 00:13:32,645 Speaker 2: documents said that David was divorced from this woman. But 228 00:13:32,925 --> 00:13:36,965 Speaker 2: I noticed that this alleged second wife was apparently never 229 00:13:37,085 --> 00:13:40,765 Speaker 2: mentioned in his obituary. So that just got me wondering 230 00:13:40,885 --> 00:13:44,845 Speaker 2: why not, why would that not be mentioned. Again, not 231 00:13:44,845 --> 00:13:47,405 Speaker 2: trying to air any dirty laundry, but in a case 232 00:13:47,445 --> 00:13:51,125 Speaker 2: where money could be involved, someone clearly had a grudge 233 00:13:51,125 --> 00:13:53,325 Speaker 2: against this couple. So we need to try to cover 234 00:13:53,405 --> 00:13:55,925 Speaker 2: all the facts. And these facts are, by the way, 235 00:13:55,925 --> 00:13:59,405 Speaker 2: in public records if you look deep enough. And also, 236 00:13:59,565 --> 00:14:01,685 Speaker 2: I feel like with a lot of these media reports, 237 00:14:01,725 --> 00:14:04,925 Speaker 2: there's this kind of flippant idea that just because these 238 00:14:04,965 --> 00:14:08,765 Speaker 2: people are elderly, that they're just this sweet little old couple. 239 00:14:09,525 --> 00:14:10,005 Speaker 1: I don't know. 240 00:14:10,125 --> 00:14:12,245 Speaker 2: Maybe it's because I watched The Golden Girls a lot, 241 00:14:12,365 --> 00:14:15,605 Speaker 2: or because I have some very active older Southern women 242 00:14:15,645 --> 00:14:18,365 Speaker 2: in my family, but I reject the notion that just 243 00:14:18,405 --> 00:14:21,165 Speaker 2: because someone is older means they don't have drama or 244 00:14:21,245 --> 00:14:24,165 Speaker 2: conflict or any kind of an inner life, or for 245 00:14:24,205 --> 00:14:28,365 Speaker 2: that matter, that they're not capable of being criminals. Life 246 00:14:28,445 --> 00:14:33,125 Speaker 2: is complicated no matter what age you are. So I 247 00:14:33,245 --> 00:14:36,885 Speaker 2: need to find out more about this woman May and 248 00:14:37,045 --> 00:14:39,485 Speaker 2: try and figure out what happened between her and David 249 00:14:39,565 --> 00:14:44,125 Speaker 2: and where she is now. Mina was an art teacher. 250 00:14:44,205 --> 00:14:46,965 Speaker 2: She taught at a local high school. She was married 251 00:14:46,965 --> 00:14:50,045 Speaker 2: to her first husband, Harold, for many years. According to 252 00:14:50,085 --> 00:14:53,245 Speaker 2: Mina's children, mine and Harold were very happy together. 253 00:14:53,765 --> 00:14:54,485 Speaker 1: They had three. 254 00:14:54,405 --> 00:14:58,085 Speaker 2: Kids, Noel, John, and William, and they were living in 255 00:14:58,165 --> 00:15:00,405 Speaker 2: that home in Clearwater until he passed away in the 256 00:15:00,485 --> 00:15:05,525 Speaker 2: late nineties, David and Mina met in Clearwater. They he 257 00:15:05,605 --> 00:15:10,245 Speaker 2: started dating and married in nineteen ninety nine. Now, according 258 00:15:10,285 --> 00:15:15,565 Speaker 2: to Noel in the deposition, David was actually her parents' accountant. 259 00:15:15,845 --> 00:15:19,365 Speaker 2: He did some accounting work for Mina and her late husband, which, 260 00:15:19,405 --> 00:15:22,085 Speaker 2: as we will see in a minute, Noel appears to 261 00:15:22,125 --> 00:15:25,165 Speaker 2: have a big problem with. But let's go back to 262 00:15:25,205 --> 00:15:27,845 Speaker 2: the murders. Months go by, and then over a year 263 00:15:28,205 --> 00:15:32,845 Speaker 2: the police have no suspects. But then there's an item 264 00:15:32,885 --> 00:15:33,685 Speaker 2: in a news. 265 00:15:33,405 --> 00:15:34,685 Speaker 1: Report about a lawsuit. 266 00:15:35,085 --> 00:15:38,365 Speaker 2: By the way, David's son, Stephen is the personal representative 267 00:15:38,525 --> 00:15:42,245 Speaker 2: of David's estate and Mina's daughter Noel is the representative 268 00:15:42,245 --> 00:15:45,645 Speaker 2: of her mother's estate. It turns out that Noel is 269 00:15:45,685 --> 00:15:49,525 Speaker 2: suing Stephen and that the lawsuit is all about the 270 00:15:49,645 --> 00:15:52,965 Speaker 2: estate and money. So we're going to try to follow 271 00:15:52,965 --> 00:16:00,405 Speaker 2: that money. We need to answer the question of what 272 00:16:00,645 --> 00:16:05,125 Speaker 2: exactly was going on with David and Minuswan's financial situation. 273 00:16:05,925 --> 00:16:09,645 Speaker 2: We know that Mana owned her home and that David 274 00:16:09,725 --> 00:16:13,765 Speaker 2: had been a successful CPA. The police said that they 275 00:16:13,805 --> 00:16:16,845 Speaker 2: were living in a nice neighborhood and they had some investments, 276 00:16:16,845 --> 00:16:20,285 Speaker 2: but these were not super wealthy people. But the probate 277 00:16:20,365 --> 00:16:23,045 Speaker 2: records give us a lot more detail about what was 278 00:16:23,085 --> 00:16:27,245 Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes with their finances. According to 279 00:16:27,285 --> 00:16:30,525 Speaker 2: court documents, Mina and David Swan did have a prenup 280 00:16:30,525 --> 00:16:33,765 Speaker 2: when they got married, and that prenup basically said that 281 00:16:33,805 --> 00:16:37,765 Speaker 2: they would keep their finances separate, each one would provide 282 00:16:38,005 --> 00:16:43,085 Speaker 2: for their own biological children. Mina's will also discussed her property, 283 00:16:43,165 --> 00:16:45,805 Speaker 2: her house, and the will said if she and David 284 00:16:45,845 --> 00:16:48,765 Speaker 2: stayed married and she died before him, he would have 285 00:16:48,805 --> 00:16:51,205 Speaker 2: the right to live there for another six months, but 286 00:16:51,365 --> 00:16:55,805 Speaker 2: basically he would not inherit it everything went to her children. 287 00:16:56,405 --> 00:17:01,245 Speaker 2: But according to Noel, it wasn't that simple. Now here's 288 00:17:01,245 --> 00:17:05,205 Speaker 2: where it gets a little bit bizarre. Because Noel is 289 00:17:05,485 --> 00:17:07,885 Speaker 2: one of the main spokesperson for her mom and the 290 00:17:07,965 --> 00:17:11,605 Speaker 2: family talked a lot with police. They participated in press conferences, 291 00:17:12,125 --> 00:17:15,325 Speaker 2: and in the early press conferences, Noel would talk about 292 00:17:15,325 --> 00:17:18,245 Speaker 2: her mom and David and how they were soulmates. She 293 00:17:18,325 --> 00:17:21,485 Speaker 2: talked about him in a very endearing way. She said 294 00:17:21,565 --> 00:17:24,045 Speaker 2: that they loved to garden. She talked about how they 295 00:17:24,045 --> 00:17:26,445 Speaker 2: would have wine and cheese in the afternoons and they 296 00:17:26,485 --> 00:17:29,205 Speaker 2: would walk their dog, whose name was Benji, around town, 297 00:17:29,965 --> 00:17:33,005 Speaker 2: and she said something I remember well. She said they 298 00:17:33,045 --> 00:17:34,965 Speaker 2: would end up giving their dog a little slice of 299 00:17:35,005 --> 00:17:37,805 Speaker 2: the cheese, which I completely relate to. So it seemed 300 00:17:37,845 --> 00:17:41,445 Speaker 2: like she believed they were this great match. But behind 301 00:17:41,485 --> 00:17:45,725 Speaker 2: the scenes in twenty nineteen, it became clear that Noel 302 00:17:46,205 --> 00:17:52,805 Speaker 2: was developing a different view of her mom and David's relationship. Now, remember, 303 00:17:52,925 --> 00:17:55,525 Speaker 2: in the press conference, Chief Slaughter talked about all the 304 00:17:55,565 --> 00:17:57,885 Speaker 2: evidence that police took from the scene. They talked about 305 00:17:57,965 --> 00:18:01,565 Speaker 2: DNA testing, But some of the things that law enforcement 306 00:18:01,605 --> 00:18:04,285 Speaker 2: have said since then have continued to lead me to 307 00:18:04,325 --> 00:18:09,085 Speaker 2: believe that Dan probably won't be the key to this case. Now, 308 00:18:09,165 --> 00:18:11,565 Speaker 2: this could be for a couple of reasons. It could 309 00:18:11,565 --> 00:18:14,445 Speaker 2: be because whoever killed this ones wore gloves and was 310 00:18:14,525 --> 00:18:20,205 Speaker 2: super careful. That's a possibility. But it's also possible that 311 00:18:20,525 --> 00:18:22,925 Speaker 2: whoever killed this ones with someone who had been inside 312 00:18:22,965 --> 00:18:25,565 Speaker 2: the home before, maybe a family member or a friend, 313 00:18:25,965 --> 00:18:28,165 Speaker 2: someone who would have had a reason for their DNA 314 00:18:28,205 --> 00:18:32,005 Speaker 2: to be present in there. That's also a possibility I've considered. 315 00:18:32,685 --> 00:18:35,885 Speaker 2: In a later press conference, Detective Kinnicki, who became the 316 00:18:35,965 --> 00:18:38,605 Speaker 2: lead investigator on the case, seemed to allude to this. 317 00:18:39,085 --> 00:18:42,205 Speaker 2: He said, quote some cases are made on DNA or 318 00:18:42,205 --> 00:18:45,085 Speaker 2: fingerprints or ballistics. I think this is going to come 319 00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:49,685 Speaker 2: back to good old fashioned police work end quote. Police 320 00:18:49,765 --> 00:18:52,965 Speaker 2: say several times this was not a random home invasion, 321 00:18:53,605 --> 00:18:56,565 Speaker 2: and Chief Slaughter also said something that alluded to money 322 00:18:56,565 --> 00:18:59,725 Speaker 2: being involved. He said, quote, while they didn't live a 323 00:18:59,845 --> 00:19:05,845 Speaker 2: lavish lifestyle, both of them had investments end quote. So again, 324 00:19:06,165 --> 00:19:08,725 Speaker 2: what was their net worth? Were they an elderly couple 325 00:19:08,765 --> 00:19:11,245 Speaker 2: who lived simply? Was there a ton of money being 326 00:19:11,325 --> 00:19:14,805 Speaker 2: hidden somewhere? What was going on? There are at least 327 00:19:14,845 --> 00:19:21,005 Speaker 2: two versions of the story. David Swan's daughter, Julie Swan, 328 00:19:21,405 --> 00:19:24,165 Speaker 2: publicly spoke out. She said that her dad was quote 329 00:19:24,485 --> 00:19:26,485 Speaker 2: the type of person who was true to his word 330 00:19:26,765 --> 00:19:30,245 Speaker 2: end quote. She said he was a successful accountant and 331 00:19:30,245 --> 00:19:34,605 Speaker 2: he was generous with money. But Mina's daughter Noel, in 332 00:19:34,685 --> 00:19:38,965 Speaker 2: her lawsuit, alleged something very different. She seemed to say 333 00:19:39,045 --> 00:19:41,445 Speaker 2: in her lawsuit that David withheld money, that he was 334 00:19:41,525 --> 00:19:43,565 Speaker 2: kind of cheap, and that he had done some business 335 00:19:43,565 --> 00:19:45,565 Speaker 2: deals that had been, in her opinion, a. 336 00:19:45,525 --> 00:19:46,365 Speaker 1: Little bit shady. 337 00:19:46,725 --> 00:19:49,765 Speaker 2: She alleged that he had been controlling her mother's finances, 338 00:19:50,325 --> 00:19:53,005 Speaker 2: and she said that she had discovered a lot of 339 00:19:53,045 --> 00:19:55,285 Speaker 2: things in David's background that she was not. 340 00:19:55,365 --> 00:20:00,925 Speaker 1: Aware of, so let's take a deeper look. 341 00:20:00,725 --> 00:20:04,245 Speaker 2: At some of these allegations. On June twenty four, twenty nineteen, 342 00:20:04,365 --> 00:20:08,125 Speaker 2: Noel filed her laws suit. She asked for compensation from 343 00:20:08,205 --> 00:20:12,565 Speaker 2: David's estate for fourteen different items she listed there around 344 00:20:12,685 --> 00:20:16,565 Speaker 2: half a million dollars in total. Stephen Swann said from 345 00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:19,565 Speaker 2: the beginning that these allegations were ridiculous, that the estate 346 00:20:19,685 --> 00:20:22,765 Speaker 2: did not owe that money, that his father and Mina 347 00:20:22,845 --> 00:20:26,685 Speaker 2: had kept their finances separate. One of the items Noel 348 00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:29,645 Speaker 2: said she had an issue with was a promisory note. 349 00:20:29,845 --> 00:20:33,525 Speaker 2: It was signed in two thousand and six by David. Apparently, 350 00:20:34,005 --> 00:20:38,925 Speaker 2: Mina Swan had homeowner's insurance on her home and David 351 00:20:39,005 --> 00:20:41,165 Speaker 2: wanted her to drop the homeowner's insurance policy. 352 00:20:41,205 --> 00:20:42,245 Speaker 1: He thought it was too expensive. 353 00:20:42,285 --> 00:20:44,445 Speaker 2: So what happened was he signed this promissory note in 354 00:20:44,485 --> 00:20:48,045 Speaker 2: two thousand and six saying he promised to pay twenty 355 00:20:48,125 --> 00:20:52,045 Speaker 2: five hundred dollars to Mina every year and to put 356 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:54,405 Speaker 2: that money in an account so that if anything ever 357 00:20:54,445 --> 00:20:57,845 Speaker 2: did happen, they would have money to do the home repairs. 358 00:21:00,005 --> 00:21:00,765 Speaker 1: She agreed to. 359 00:21:00,725 --> 00:21:04,205 Speaker 2: This, and they signed an agreement. He said he would 360 00:21:04,205 --> 00:21:06,765 Speaker 2: deposit money every year that would equal what the premium 361 00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:09,525 Speaker 2: would have been. If they ever needed that money, they 362 00:21:09,525 --> 00:21:11,885 Speaker 2: would take it out of that fund, and David agreed 363 00:21:11,925 --> 00:21:14,845 Speaker 2: to cover any amount that was in excess of that. Now, 364 00:21:14,845 --> 00:21:18,485 Speaker 2: there's nothing necessarily alarming about that at all. David may 365 00:21:18,525 --> 00:21:20,525 Speaker 2: have been totally right, it may not have been worth 366 00:21:20,525 --> 00:21:23,405 Speaker 2: the money to have that insurance policy, but it's obvious 367 00:21:23,605 --> 00:21:26,725 Speaker 2: from what Noel said in her lawsuit that she believed 368 00:21:26,725 --> 00:21:29,845 Speaker 2: this was about more than that. She obviously had issues 369 00:21:29,925 --> 00:21:34,685 Speaker 2: with David controlling her mother, so at first those payments 370 00:21:34,685 --> 00:21:36,885 Speaker 2: were put into an account Noel said her mom had 371 00:21:36,925 --> 00:21:40,605 Speaker 2: access to it. Then in June of twenty eighteen, the 372 00:21:40,685 --> 00:21:44,605 Speaker 2: balance was transferred into a new Charles Schwab account. Mina 373 00:21:44,805 --> 00:21:47,485 Speaker 2: was the joint owner of that account, but later Noel 374 00:21:47,605 --> 00:21:50,245 Speaker 2: claimed the money was moved into another account, an account 375 00:21:50,285 --> 00:21:53,525 Speaker 2: that only David had access to, and that wasn't Noel's 376 00:21:53,565 --> 00:21:57,405 Speaker 2: only complaint. Noel also alleged that David failed to make 377 00:21:57,445 --> 00:22:00,805 Speaker 2: payments that he agreed to make to her mother. Basically, 378 00:22:00,845 --> 00:22:04,405 Speaker 2: she claimed David had been trying to hide money from 379 00:22:04,405 --> 00:22:07,525 Speaker 2: her mother. Again, Steven Swann. 380 00:22:07,285 --> 00:22:10,045 Speaker 1: Said this entire lawsuit was bogus. 381 00:22:10,205 --> 00:22:12,885 Speaker 2: And in the end the court appeared to side with 382 00:22:12,965 --> 00:22:17,525 Speaker 2: him because Noel's lawsuit was dismissed. But I want to 383 00:22:17,525 --> 00:22:20,205 Speaker 2: dive into this a little bit because through Noell and 384 00:22:20,285 --> 00:22:24,645 Speaker 2: Stephen's depositions we get two drastically different versions of this 385 00:22:24,885 --> 00:22:27,485 Speaker 2: marriage that it seemed so perfect to the outside world. 386 00:22:28,405 --> 00:22:30,645 Speaker 2: It's one of the only ways I can think of 387 00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:33,485 Speaker 2: of really getting behind closed doors and finding out what's 388 00:22:33,485 --> 00:22:38,965 Speaker 2: going on. Noel and her sister were both deposed, and 389 00:22:39,245 --> 00:22:43,405 Speaker 2: they said David made their mother feel unsafe. They painted 390 00:22:43,405 --> 00:22:47,245 Speaker 2: a completely different picture of the relationship between David. 391 00:22:46,965 --> 00:22:47,685 Speaker 1: And Minus Wan. 392 00:22:47,805 --> 00:22:50,685 Speaker 2: And again, I have no idea if any of this 393 00:22:50,925 --> 00:22:55,445 Speaker 2: is true. They could be completely wrong. We just don't know. 394 00:22:56,005 --> 00:22:57,765 Speaker 2: All I'm saying is that when we're trying to figure 395 00:22:57,765 --> 00:23:01,805 Speaker 2: out victimology, it is crucial to understand how family members 396 00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:06,245 Speaker 2: and friends view this relationship between David and Mina. Remember 397 00:23:06,285 --> 00:23:09,645 Speaker 2: what I said about David's obituary and there being another 398 00:23:09,685 --> 00:23:11,725 Speaker 2: woman who showed up in court records but who was 399 00:23:11,765 --> 00:23:15,205 Speaker 2: not mentioned to the obituary. Well, the deposition seemed to 400 00:23:15,245 --> 00:23:19,965 Speaker 2: confirm that, according to Noel's deposition, David was actually married 401 00:23:19,965 --> 00:23:24,205 Speaker 2: to someone else when he got together with Mina. Noel 402 00:23:24,405 --> 00:23:27,325 Speaker 2: alleged that David had moved in on their mom very 403 00:23:27,405 --> 00:23:31,605 Speaker 2: quickly after their father's death. So it's interesting because the 404 00:23:31,645 --> 00:23:36,645 Speaker 2: initial financial dispute that Noel had seemed to be solved 405 00:23:36,685 --> 00:23:40,965 Speaker 2: pretty quickly. According to the information that Steven Swan provided 406 00:23:41,005 --> 00:23:44,565 Speaker 2: the court, Noel had made a mistake. She had been 407 00:23:44,605 --> 00:23:47,565 Speaker 2: double counting on certain accounts. She thought there was money 408 00:23:47,605 --> 00:23:51,925 Speaker 2: there that didn't exist. He also said that even if 409 00:23:52,165 --> 00:23:55,285 Speaker 2: there was money in a homeowner's insurance account that belonged 410 00:23:55,285 --> 00:23:59,045 Speaker 2: to Minus one after David and Mina's death, he said 411 00:23:59,565 --> 00:24:01,845 Speaker 2: Noel would have had no right to that money. The 412 00:24:01,885 --> 00:24:04,645 Speaker 2: money was for homeowner's insurance and in the end they 413 00:24:04,685 --> 00:24:07,005 Speaker 2: didn't need to use it for that reason. And again, 414 00:24:07,045 --> 00:24:10,045 Speaker 2: the fact that there was fighting over potential inheritance money 415 00:24:10,165 --> 00:24:14,685 Speaker 2: is not uncommon unfortunately. So in the end, David Swan's 416 00:24:14,805 --> 00:24:18,405 Speaker 2: estate was settled, but the court cases involving minus estate 417 00:24:18,445 --> 00:24:23,645 Speaker 2: are still ongoing. I found something else interesting in this lawsuit. 418 00:24:23,685 --> 00:24:28,405 Speaker 2: I found out Minus Swan's estate was frozen by police. Now, 419 00:24:28,445 --> 00:24:31,725 Speaker 2: apparently this has something to do with Florida's slayer statute, 420 00:24:31,765 --> 00:24:34,325 Speaker 2: and that's a law that's on the books. That basically 421 00:24:34,365 --> 00:24:39,085 Speaker 2: prevents anyone who is related to the deceased from profiting 422 00:24:39,805 --> 00:24:42,125 Speaker 2: off of the death if they are believed to have 423 00:24:42,125 --> 00:24:44,565 Speaker 2: had anything to do with it. I don't know all 424 00:24:44,605 --> 00:24:46,605 Speaker 2: the legalities of that law, but it is mentioned in 425 00:24:46,645 --> 00:24:49,045 Speaker 2: the deposition, and that is the reason why the estate 426 00:24:49,085 --> 00:24:52,885 Speaker 2: was frozen. So meanwhile, while all this stuff is going 427 00:24:52,965 --> 00:24:56,645 Speaker 2: on in the background, the family has publicly appealed for help. 428 00:24:58,085 --> 00:25:01,605 Speaker 2: Stephen has told reporters that he does believe that these 429 00:25:01,725 --> 00:25:05,165 Speaker 2: murders were about money. He said, quote, I already have 430 00:25:05,485 --> 00:25:07,885 Speaker 2: six theories of the case. Don't know if any of 431 00:25:07,885 --> 00:25:11,085 Speaker 2: them are correct, But what do you always hear? Follow 432 00:25:11,125 --> 00:25:15,965 Speaker 2: the money end quote. Seven months after the murders, police 433 00:25:16,005 --> 00:25:19,525 Speaker 2: reached out again again. The detective in charge of the investigation, 434 00:25:19,685 --> 00:25:23,285 Speaker 2: Brian Kinicki, told the Tampa Bay Times that they had 435 00:25:23,365 --> 00:25:25,045 Speaker 2: multiple detectives looking at the case. 436 00:25:25,085 --> 00:25:25,725 Speaker 1: They looked at. 437 00:25:25,685 --> 00:25:29,325 Speaker 2: Hundreds of pieces of evidence, and he said, quote, we're 438 00:25:29,405 --> 00:25:31,245 Speaker 2: kind of at a point right now where we're really 439 00:25:31,285 --> 00:25:33,445 Speaker 2: reaching out to our community and the communities that our 440 00:25:33,525 --> 00:25:36,725 Speaker 2: victims were previously from to see if anybody has any 441 00:25:36,725 --> 00:25:40,205 Speaker 2: information about their backgrounds, family issues, business issues that might 442 00:25:40,245 --> 00:25:41,565 Speaker 2: be pertinent to our investigation. 443 00:25:42,325 --> 00:25:43,925 Speaker 1: It's very very rare for. 444 00:25:43,965 --> 00:25:46,405 Speaker 2: Us to have an elderly couple or any type of 445 00:25:46,445 --> 00:25:49,645 Speaker 2: homicide occurring where we don't have an obvious suspect right away. 446 00:25:50,085 --> 00:25:53,365 Speaker 2: You know, typically they're domestic related or drug gang related 447 00:25:53,645 --> 00:25:57,885 Speaker 2: end quote. This is interesting to me for a couple 448 00:25:57,885 --> 00:26:00,725 Speaker 2: of reasons. First of all, I just want to say 449 00:26:00,765 --> 00:26:04,005 Speaker 2: I think it's great that the police department continues to 450 00:26:04,045 --> 00:26:06,445 Speaker 2: provide updates even if they don't have that much information, 451 00:26:06,605 --> 00:26:08,925 Speaker 2: just keeping it in the public eye, allowing the families 452 00:26:08,925 --> 00:26:10,645 Speaker 2: of boys. I think it's a great thing because a 453 00:26:10,645 --> 00:26:13,765 Speaker 2: lot of police departments don't do that. Secondly, though, I 454 00:26:13,765 --> 00:26:16,805 Speaker 2: think it's very telling police are admitting they're basically to 455 00:26:16,885 --> 00:26:20,485 Speaker 2: dead end. They're saying they need help. I wonder how 456 00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:25,165 Speaker 2: many of their detectives have experience with what I call 457 00:26:25,285 --> 00:26:27,885 Speaker 2: fraud detection homicides. I've talked a lot on my other 458 00:26:27,925 --> 00:26:33,565 Speaker 2: podcast about red collar cases, and one of the most 459 00:26:33,605 --> 00:26:38,165 Speaker 2: important things in a potential fraud detection homicide is finding 460 00:26:38,165 --> 00:26:40,685 Speaker 2: out everything that you can about the finances of the 461 00:26:40,725 --> 00:26:44,325 Speaker 2: deceased and finding people who are close to them, who 462 00:26:44,365 --> 00:26:48,685 Speaker 2: they have financial relationships with. And the question ask is 463 00:26:48,765 --> 00:26:53,405 Speaker 2: not necessarily always what would a potential killer gain from 464 00:26:53,485 --> 00:26:56,845 Speaker 2: someone's death. But at the time of death, did they 465 00:26:56,885 --> 00:26:58,805 Speaker 2: have a desperate financial situation? 466 00:26:58,885 --> 00:27:01,245 Speaker 1: What did they believe that they were about to lose? 467 00:27:01,685 --> 00:27:06,325 Speaker 2: So that's what I've been trying to figure out. So 468 00:27:06,485 --> 00:27:09,245 Speaker 2: let's take a closer look at some of David and 469 00:27:09,285 --> 00:27:13,605 Speaker 2: Mina's other family relationships. Noel has been deposed multiple times 470 00:27:13,645 --> 00:27:16,165 Speaker 2: for the litigation, and she's actually shed a lot of 471 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:20,085 Speaker 2: light on the relationship between David, her mother, and her siblings. 472 00:27:20,645 --> 00:27:22,725 Speaker 2: Noel said both she and her husband worked in the 473 00:27:22,725 --> 00:27:26,125 Speaker 2: banking industry. Several years before the killing, she moved back 474 00:27:26,125 --> 00:27:28,685 Speaker 2: to an area of Florida near her mom, so she 475 00:27:28,725 --> 00:27:30,845 Speaker 2: saw Mina a lot. She got to spend a lot 476 00:27:30,845 --> 00:27:35,765 Speaker 2: of time with her. David's children lived in Chicago and Oregon, 477 00:27:35,885 --> 00:27:40,205 Speaker 2: so farther away, but both of Mina's other sons, William 478 00:27:40,405 --> 00:27:45,245 Speaker 2: and John, also lived in Florida. In her deposition, Noel 479 00:27:45,405 --> 00:27:48,605 Speaker 2: said she had learned that David Swan was not, according 480 00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:51,725 Speaker 2: to her, everything he appeared to be, even with really 481 00:27:51,765 --> 00:27:55,685 Speaker 2: simple things. For example, David was a serious bridge player. 482 00:27:56,085 --> 00:27:58,165 Speaker 2: She said in her deposition that when David went to 483 00:27:58,165 --> 00:28:01,645 Speaker 2: play bridge every day that he quote lied to my 484 00:28:01,725 --> 00:28:04,645 Speaker 2: mother for twenty years about where he was every day 485 00:28:04,925 --> 00:28:08,485 Speaker 2: end quote. So now I'm wondering what was he supposedly 486 00:28:08,565 --> 00:28:11,245 Speaker 2: lying about that. She believed he was playing bridge somewhere else. 487 00:28:11,325 --> 00:28:24,005 Speaker 2: Was there something else going on there? According to the depositions, 488 00:28:24,485 --> 00:28:27,845 Speaker 2: there were also other issues between this perfect couple and 489 00:28:27,885 --> 00:28:31,005 Speaker 2: some of their other children. In two thousand and nine, 490 00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:34,965 Speaker 2: David Swan apparently had an issue with his son, David A. Swan, 491 00:28:35,485 --> 00:28:38,205 Speaker 2: and they weren't speaking as a result of that, and 492 00:28:38,325 --> 00:28:41,285 Speaker 2: according to the court documents, this dispute they had was 493 00:28:41,325 --> 00:28:45,805 Speaker 2: about money. During the deposition, something else came out. Noel 494 00:28:45,965 --> 00:28:50,245 Speaker 2: apparently told people that the police considered her and possibly 495 00:28:50,325 --> 00:28:54,285 Speaker 2: one of her siblings suspects. At one point, the attorney 496 00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:57,645 Speaker 2: questioning Noel asks you did volunteer that you were aware, 497 00:28:57,765 --> 00:29:01,445 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, remaining as a suspect by the Clearwater 498 00:29:01,525 --> 00:29:06,085 Speaker 2: Police Department in this matter. She answers, we heard it 499 00:29:06,085 --> 00:29:09,005 Speaker 2: from a neighbor, didn't hear it from the police, And 500 00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:12,325 Speaker 2: we talked before about the freeze that police had put 501 00:29:12,405 --> 00:29:16,165 Speaker 2: on these funds. Noel talks about trying to remove the 502 00:29:16,205 --> 00:29:20,125 Speaker 2: freeze from those funds and get access to them. She said, quote, 503 00:29:20,405 --> 00:29:22,645 Speaker 2: so it sounds like to remove the freeze. I need 504 00:29:22,685 --> 00:29:25,565 Speaker 2: to solve the case that the police are incapable of solving. 505 00:29:25,885 --> 00:29:27,005 Speaker 1: End quote. 506 00:29:27,645 --> 00:29:32,285 Speaker 2: I can completely understand her frustration here because it's been years, 507 00:29:32,525 --> 00:29:36,485 Speaker 2: and naturally I can understand why she would want access 508 00:29:36,685 --> 00:29:39,525 Speaker 2: to her mother's estate. At the same time, I can 509 00:29:39,565 --> 00:29:42,045 Speaker 2: see the other side, the police don't want to get 510 00:29:42,045 --> 00:29:44,685 Speaker 2: this wrong, and they want to keep those funds locked 511 00:29:44,685 --> 00:29:49,325 Speaker 2: down until they know exactly what happened. It also emerged 512 00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:54,525 Speaker 2: in the depositions that Mina's son, John Wolfe, was terminally ill. 513 00:29:55,485 --> 00:30:00,325 Speaker 2: Noel said John had stage four cancer non Hodgkins lymphoma, 514 00:30:00,405 --> 00:30:03,045 Speaker 2: and that over the years, David and Mina had been 515 00:30:03,085 --> 00:30:07,485 Speaker 2: helping him financially. Noel said that John had a lot 516 00:30:07,525 --> 00:30:11,325 Speaker 2: of health issues they had left him basically unable to work. 517 00:30:11,725 --> 00:30:14,805 Speaker 2: She said he'd had the lifetime maximum of chemotherapy over 518 00:30:14,845 --> 00:30:17,365 Speaker 2: the years, and eventually his illness meant he got put 519 00:30:17,365 --> 00:30:21,325 Speaker 2: on disability. So for several years John lived at a 520 00:30:21,365 --> 00:30:24,405 Speaker 2: property that was owned by Mina on New York Avenue 521 00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:28,045 Speaker 2: in Clearwater. Noel said John didn't pay rent, but for 522 00:30:28,085 --> 00:30:29,645 Speaker 2: a long time he did a lot of work on 523 00:30:29,685 --> 00:30:32,445 Speaker 2: the property. She said it really wasn't in very good shape, 524 00:30:32,485 --> 00:30:35,165 Speaker 2: and since he did construction type work, he helped fix 525 00:30:35,165 --> 00:30:39,285 Speaker 2: it up. Noel said that they needed to sell the 526 00:30:39,325 --> 00:30:42,565 Speaker 2: home at some point, and also John was getting sicker 527 00:30:42,605 --> 00:30:45,125 Speaker 2: and he couldn't really keep up with the physical labor 528 00:30:45,165 --> 00:30:48,165 Speaker 2: that he needed to do on that property. So Noel 529 00:30:48,325 --> 00:30:50,925 Speaker 2: said she found John an apartment for around one thousand 530 00:30:50,925 --> 00:30:54,845 Speaker 2: dollars a month. She gave him emergency distributions from their 531 00:30:54,845 --> 00:30:57,805 Speaker 2: mother's estate to pay for his rent and his moving costs, 532 00:30:58,325 --> 00:31:02,085 Speaker 2: which meant that as of January twenty twenty two, ninety 533 00:31:02,085 --> 00:31:05,165 Speaker 2: two thousand dollars had been taken out of Minus one's estate. 534 00:31:05,765 --> 00:31:09,165 Speaker 2: Just over fifty seven thousand dollars of that was emergency 535 00:31:09,205 --> 00:31:14,365 Speaker 2: distributions to John. In the deposition, Noel said police have 536 00:31:14,485 --> 00:31:17,845 Speaker 2: told her that they believe that her brother John is 537 00:31:17,965 --> 00:31:22,565 Speaker 2: faking his cancer. She said, quote, the police have accused 538 00:31:22,605 --> 00:31:25,085 Speaker 2: him of not being sick, which is insulting to those 539 00:31:25,085 --> 00:31:27,765 Speaker 2: of us who live with this every day watching him. 540 00:31:28,005 --> 00:31:29,685 Speaker 2: Were focused on keeping him alive. 541 00:31:30,165 --> 00:31:30,685 Speaker 1: End quote. 542 00:31:31,725 --> 00:31:34,685 Speaker 2: She also says that to her knowledge, John is still 543 00:31:34,685 --> 00:31:37,605 Speaker 2: a suspect, but she says that her brother William apparently 544 00:31:37,645 --> 00:31:43,285 Speaker 2: is not what emerged during this deposition was a picture 545 00:31:43,525 --> 00:31:48,725 Speaker 2: of John's finances, and we know that he lived in 546 00:31:49,085 --> 00:31:52,365 Speaker 2: Minuswan's house for several years with his son. His son 547 00:31:52,485 --> 00:31:53,885 Speaker 2: was sick at one point and had to go to 548 00:31:53,965 --> 00:31:57,805 Speaker 2: children's hospital. But Noel said that a year or two 549 00:31:57,925 --> 00:32:02,125 Speaker 2: before David and Mine's deaths, circumstances started to change. She 550 00:32:02,205 --> 00:32:04,765 Speaker 2: said that there was apparently a buyer who was interested 551 00:32:04,885 --> 00:32:07,125 Speaker 2: in the New York Avenue house, the one that John 552 00:32:07,205 --> 00:32:09,925 Speaker 2: was living in. She said that a couple days later, 553 00:32:10,005 --> 00:32:13,605 Speaker 2: after this buyer contacted David and Mina, David went over 554 00:32:13,645 --> 00:32:16,805 Speaker 2: to John's house and quote started screaming at him and 555 00:32:16,845 --> 00:32:19,165 Speaker 2: telling him he had to leave and move out in 556 00:32:19,205 --> 00:32:23,445 Speaker 2: seven days end quote. Now, at this point in the deposition, 557 00:32:23,525 --> 00:32:27,245 Speaker 2: the attorney questioning Noel starts asking her about her mom's will. 558 00:32:27,805 --> 00:32:31,245 Speaker 2: Noel said that her understanding was that David would take 559 00:32:31,285 --> 00:32:33,885 Speaker 2: care of her mother they would keep their finances separate, 560 00:32:33,885 --> 00:32:37,285 Speaker 2: as we've discussed. But Noel alleged that she'd learned a 561 00:32:37,325 --> 00:32:40,045 Speaker 2: lot about David since her mom's death. She said what 562 00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:41,805 Speaker 2: she had learned had changed her. 563 00:32:41,845 --> 00:32:42,365 Speaker 1: View of him. 564 00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:46,965 Speaker 2: She said that before Mina got involved with David, that 565 00:32:47,085 --> 00:32:50,965 Speaker 2: her mom had a long time financial broker, but Noel 566 00:32:51,085 --> 00:32:53,685 Speaker 2: said David allegedly pressured her mom to get rid of 567 00:32:53,725 --> 00:32:57,685 Speaker 2: this woman, who Noel said was a family friend. She 568 00:32:57,845 --> 00:33:01,285 Speaker 2: said that in twenty twelve, this woman had witnessed David 569 00:33:01,365 --> 00:33:04,445 Speaker 2: put his hand over Miya's mouth and that he would 570 00:33:04,445 --> 00:33:07,285 Speaker 2: throw huge temper tantrums every time they would get in 571 00:33:07,365 --> 00:33:11,245 Speaker 2: arguments about money. Noel said that David tried to control 572 00:33:11,285 --> 00:33:15,205 Speaker 2: her mother financially, and Noel said since David's death, she 573 00:33:15,245 --> 00:33:16,445 Speaker 2: looked into some court records. 574 00:33:17,125 --> 00:33:18,325 Speaker 1: She said that she had. 575 00:33:18,205 --> 00:33:21,205 Speaker 2: Found records from Illinois that showed a lot of loans, 576 00:33:21,285 --> 00:33:25,725 Speaker 2: mortgage foreclosures, and what she called unusual behavior in David's records. 577 00:33:26,605 --> 00:33:28,965 Speaker 2: Noel said she had a bad feeling about David because, 578 00:33:28,965 --> 00:33:31,485 Speaker 2: in her opinion, he had kind of taken advantage of 579 00:33:31,485 --> 00:33:33,685 Speaker 2: her mother when she was in a vulnerable position after 580 00:33:33,725 --> 00:33:38,965 Speaker 2: her father passed away. She said, quote he moved into 581 00:33:39,005 --> 00:33:49,645 Speaker 2: mom's house weeks after Dad's funeral end quote. So, reading 582 00:33:49,685 --> 00:33:53,405 Speaker 2: between the lines from Noel's deposition, it appears that she 583 00:33:53,805 --> 00:33:55,845 Speaker 2: believed that David did kind of a bait and switch 584 00:33:55,885 --> 00:33:58,365 Speaker 2: on her mom, that he had presented himself as this 585 00:33:58,405 --> 00:34:00,845 Speaker 2: amazing businessman who was going to love Mina and take 586 00:34:00,845 --> 00:34:03,445 Speaker 2: care of her, and that he swept Mina off her 587 00:34:03,485 --> 00:34:06,005 Speaker 2: feet and took her on trips. I must her this 588 00:34:06,045 --> 00:34:08,485 Speaker 2: great life, but then in the end turned out to 589 00:34:08,485 --> 00:34:12,565 Speaker 2: be very controlling with money. Noel claims her mom was 590 00:34:12,605 --> 00:34:14,485 Speaker 2: not allowed to have a cell phone, or to open 591 00:34:14,525 --> 00:34:17,485 Speaker 2: the mail or to answer the phone. She claimed that 592 00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:21,245 Speaker 2: David had isolated her mother from her friends. Now, again, 593 00:34:21,525 --> 00:34:25,405 Speaker 2: this is only one side of the story. David's son, 594 00:34:25,525 --> 00:34:29,605 Speaker 2: Steven Swan has said publicly and in court documents that 595 00:34:29,805 --> 00:34:34,285 Speaker 2: these allegations are completely ridiculous and obviously this is only 596 00:34:34,365 --> 00:34:37,485 Speaker 2: one person's view of what was going on in this relationship. 597 00:34:38,125 --> 00:34:40,845 Speaker 2: But in my opinion, we absolutely need to find out 598 00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:43,205 Speaker 2: more about what was actually going on in that marriage. 599 00:34:43,245 --> 00:34:52,685 Speaker 2: We really need to talk to the family and Minuswan's friends. 600 00:34:55,605 --> 00:34:58,605 Speaker 2: Six months after Minah and David were found dead, the 601 00:34:58,685 --> 00:35:02,485 Speaker 2: families and law enforcement did a public update. Noel made 602 00:35:02,485 --> 00:35:03,605 Speaker 2: a plea for new information. 603 00:35:05,085 --> 00:35:08,925 Speaker 4: We are looking very very much for answers. We know 604 00:35:09,005 --> 00:35:10,165 Speaker 4: that there's answers out there. 605 00:35:10,285 --> 00:35:12,485 Speaker 5: We know that you know someone out there knows something, 606 00:35:12,605 --> 00:35:15,565 Speaker 5: and I hope they'll share that information. It's extremely important 607 00:35:15,565 --> 00:35:19,965 Speaker 5: to us. We wanted to be worn out there as 608 00:35:20,005 --> 00:35:25,325 Speaker 5: a reminder that Mom was loved and. 609 00:35:25,485 --> 00:35:26,245 Speaker 4: Very much missed. 610 00:35:28,045 --> 00:35:32,765 Speaker 6: And now the one thing that could not help, excuse me, 611 00:35:33,645 --> 00:35:37,325 Speaker 6: the one thing that could help is finding the answers 612 00:35:37,365 --> 00:35:40,845 Speaker 6: to what happened. So please, if anyone knows something, if 613 00:35:40,845 --> 00:35:44,405 Speaker 6: anyone hears anything, if they've seen anything, please please call 614 00:35:44,445 --> 00:35:45,045 Speaker 6: it tipline. 615 00:35:45,805 --> 00:35:51,485 Speaker 5: It's very important, dumbhele back. We would really love to 616 00:35:51,485 --> 00:35:52,845 Speaker 5: find the answers in this case. 617 00:35:52,965 --> 00:35:56,045 Speaker 4: We would like to have our piece. Thank you. 618 00:36:00,845 --> 00:36:03,565 Speaker 2: Noel and her brother William have spoken up during these 619 00:36:03,565 --> 00:36:08,645 Speaker 2: press conferences also made a brief statement. He said, I'm 620 00:36:08,765 --> 00:36:11,365 Speaker 2: very ill and I need some closure before I pass. 621 00:36:11,885 --> 00:36:16,285 Speaker 2: If you know something, say something. Billboards have been posted 622 00:36:16,325 --> 00:36:19,605 Speaker 2: across the Tampa Bay area asking for information, and there's 623 00:36:19,645 --> 00:36:23,485 Speaker 2: been several rewards offered. Right now, the reward is up 624 00:36:23,525 --> 00:36:28,445 Speaker 2: to fifty three thousand dollars. In twenty twenty, there was 625 00:36:28,485 --> 00:36:32,325 Speaker 2: another update in the case. Again, this was a little 626 00:36:32,325 --> 00:36:34,845 Speaker 2: bit bizarre. This is something I'd not seen before, because 627 00:36:35,045 --> 00:36:39,085 Speaker 2: in September of twenty twenty, the Clearwater Police Department released 628 00:36:39,085 --> 00:36:41,885 Speaker 2: crime scene photos in an attempt to help the case. 629 00:36:42,485 --> 00:36:45,645 Speaker 2: It was on the second anniversary two years no arrests. 630 00:36:46,525 --> 00:36:50,005 Speaker 2: These photos, though, are a little bit bizarre because they're 631 00:36:50,045 --> 00:36:53,125 Speaker 2: not actually of the crime scene. They're of the exterior 632 00:36:53,165 --> 00:36:56,645 Speaker 2: of the house, and they're these very mundane photos. I'm 633 00:36:56,685 --> 00:36:58,965 Speaker 2: going to provide a link to those because I'm really 634 00:36:59,005 --> 00:37:01,605 Speaker 2: hoping that someone out there will look at these and 635 00:37:01,645 --> 00:37:03,925 Speaker 2: they will see something that I miss or that the 636 00:37:03,965 --> 00:37:09,165 Speaker 2: police miss. One of the photos is a close up 637 00:37:09,205 --> 00:37:12,485 Speaker 2: shot of the Swan's front door of their house. You 638 00:37:12,485 --> 00:37:15,485 Speaker 2: can see the newspapers in front of their residence. There's 639 00:37:15,485 --> 00:37:17,805 Speaker 2: a Tampa Bay Times newspaper on top and some other 640 00:37:17,845 --> 00:37:21,085 Speaker 2: papers in a clear plastic bag. I noticed, though, that 641 00:37:21,125 --> 00:37:23,725 Speaker 2: the newspapers are neatly lying one on top of the 642 00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:27,965 Speaker 2: other next to the door. My first thought was usually 643 00:37:28,005 --> 00:37:30,645 Speaker 2: paper boys throw things in the yard in a kind 644 00:37:30,645 --> 00:37:34,645 Speaker 2: of crazy way, So who stacked those papers there that neatly? 645 00:37:35,245 --> 00:37:37,245 Speaker 2: There could be an explanation for it. It could be the 646 00:37:37,285 --> 00:37:39,125 Speaker 2: woman who knocked on the door to try to get 647 00:37:39,125 --> 00:37:41,085 Speaker 2: the Swan's flyers, or one of the neighbors. 648 00:37:41,605 --> 00:37:43,325 Speaker 1: But why would police not say that. 649 00:37:44,325 --> 00:37:46,685 Speaker 2: I zoomed in on the headline and the newspaper on 650 00:37:46,725 --> 00:37:49,885 Speaker 2: top was the Tampa Bay Times. I couldn't see the date, 651 00:37:50,005 --> 00:37:53,205 Speaker 2: but I googled the headline to figure out this was 652 00:37:53,325 --> 00:37:57,165 Speaker 2: the Tampa Bay Times from Saturday, September twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, 653 00:37:57,845 --> 00:38:01,205 Speaker 2: So we have Saturday's newspaper, presumably on top of Fridays. 654 00:38:02,285 --> 00:38:06,205 Speaker 2: Another photo shows the swan's mailbox, a white wooden box 655 00:38:06,245 --> 00:38:08,485 Speaker 2: with the address ten thirty three printed on it in 656 00:38:08,485 --> 00:38:11,765 Speaker 2: black letters. There's another picture of the open mailbox with 657 00:38:11,885 --> 00:38:15,125 Speaker 2: letters inside it. It's just a couple of envelopes and 658 00:38:15,205 --> 00:38:18,045 Speaker 2: what appears to be jump mail. I can't read what's 659 00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:20,245 Speaker 2: on the envelopes, and I've really tried. I've zoomed in 660 00:38:20,325 --> 00:38:22,885 Speaker 2: a lot. Then there's a photo of a car in 661 00:38:22,925 --> 00:38:26,445 Speaker 2: a garage and pictures of the screened in back porch 662 00:38:26,965 --> 00:38:29,245 Speaker 2: are what we call in Florida the lunai with the pool. 663 00:38:30,005 --> 00:38:31,885 Speaker 2: But there's nothing in the picture that I can see 664 00:38:31,885 --> 00:38:34,925 Speaker 2: that stands out, just a screen door and a closer 665 00:38:35,005 --> 00:38:38,245 Speaker 2: look inside a screened in porch. The water is blue 666 00:38:38,285 --> 00:38:41,685 Speaker 2: and clear in the pool. I go back to what 667 00:38:41,885 --> 00:38:45,125 Speaker 2: Chief of Police Dan Slaughter told media. Based on the 668 00:38:45,165 --> 00:38:47,725 Speaker 2: time they were last seen, it's likely that David and 669 00:38:47,765 --> 00:38:51,765 Speaker 2: Minus one were killed between three pm on Thursday and 670 00:38:51,845 --> 00:38:53,445 Speaker 2: three pm on the following day. 671 00:38:53,445 --> 00:38:53,845 Speaker 1: Friday. 672 00:38:55,085 --> 00:38:57,445 Speaker 2: Officers are asking neighbors and friends of the couple to 673 00:38:57,525 --> 00:39:00,365 Speaker 2: focus on that twenty four hour window. They say if 674 00:39:00,405 --> 00:39:03,805 Speaker 2: anything unusual stands out, regardless of how small it is. 675 00:39:03,725 --> 00:39:04,725 Speaker 1: They want to hear from you. 676 00:39:05,805 --> 00:39:09,645 Speaker 2: If you know anything about this case, please contact the 677 00:39:09,645 --> 00:39:12,445 Speaker 2: Clearwater Police. The number to call there is seven two 678 00:39:12,565 --> 00:39:17,045 Speaker 2: seven five six ' two four one four one. In 679 00:39:17,085 --> 00:39:19,205 Speaker 2: the meantime, I'm going to keep following up on this 680 00:39:19,245 --> 00:39:23,805 Speaker 2: case because I absolutely believe that the answers are out there. 681 00:39:25,085 --> 00:39:27,965 Speaker 2: There's something that someone miss There's a missing piece of 682 00:39:27,965 --> 00:39:29,925 Speaker 2: the puzzle, and we just have to work together to 683 00:39:30,005 --> 00:39:34,005 Speaker 2: try and figure it out. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is 684 00:39:34,085 --> 00:39:43,805 Speaker 2: Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a 685 00:39:43,845 --> 00:39:47,005 Speaker 2: production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written 686 00:39:47,005 --> 00:39:50,245 Speaker 2: and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. 687 00:39:51,005 --> 00:39:54,885 Speaker 2: Music is by Ben Sale. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, 688 00:39:55,005 --> 00:39:58,325 Speaker 2: Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. If you have a case 689 00:39:58,365 --> 00:40:00,405 Speaker 2: you'd like me and my team to look into, you 690 00:40:00,445 --> 00:40:02,445 Speaker 2: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 691 00:40:02,485 --> 00:40:05,405 Speaker 2: Line at six seven eight seven four four six one 692 00:40:05,685 --> 00:40:09,765 Speaker 2: four or five that six seven eight, seven, four, four, six, one, 693 00:40:09,805 --> 00:40:10,325 Speaker 2: four or five. 694 00:40:30,125 --> 00:40:31,045 Speaker 1: School of Humans,