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Speaker 1: What's uh warming my my globe. I'm Robert Evans. My

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Speaker 1: hair conditioning is not currently functioning, so I'm hiding in

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Speaker 1: my basement, which I think this is a historic moment

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Speaker 1: everybody marks the first time a human being has experienced

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Speaker 1: the consequences of climate change. That that's that's me right now.

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Speaker 1: Number one. It is seventy four degrees maybe in my

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Speaker 1: basement upwards of seventy three degrees. So yeah, suffering, suffering

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Speaker 1: here still, I mean that in a basement. Is that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty That's pretty warm, dog, It's pretty It's pretty

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Speaker 1: warm for the basement. It might be more like seventy degrees.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what temperatures are. And I'm drinking coffee.

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Speaker 1: Andrew T. How are you doing today? Hi? What's up?

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Speaker 1: How's it going? I'm I'm um. I'm This is the honestly,

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Speaker 1: probably the first or second week that me long time

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Speaker 1: shorts Denier is wearing short Wow, I'm not short. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a short person. I wore I wore black

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Speaker 1: jeans to a Dodger game two years ago when it

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Speaker 1: was like a hundred and ten outside, and I did

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Speaker 1: almost pass out, but I was pretty committed and now

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Speaker 1: I'm now I'm wearing shorts. I have also purchased a

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Speaker 1: pair of shorts recently. I mean, just take this evidence

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Speaker 1: to any climate change and I are and be like Andrew,

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Speaker 1: two wear shorts. Now that's your that's the proof. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: climate change is a real problem. This is the first

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Speaker 1: evidence anyone has of it. Um, Andrew, it's good to

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Speaker 1: have you back. You are having Sophie and eyes one

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Speaker 1: of our very, very very favorite people to have on

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Speaker 1: the show. You have been doing a lot of Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: We call you Mr Hollywood with a private conversation. Such

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Speaker 1: a big Hollywood guy. But you know what other kind

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Speaker 1: of guy you are, Andrew. It's a very funny guy

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Speaker 1: who we like to have on every now and again

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Speaker 1: to talk about bits of history. You and I have

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Speaker 1: talked about King Leopold of Belgium. We've talked about the

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Speaker 1: Andaman Islands. We've had all sorts of history conversations. Andrew,

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Speaker 1: how do you How do you feel about the Roman Empire? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I probably as far as like contemporary Americans go, I

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Speaker 1: probably took more Latin than I think most people like.

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Speaker 1: That was my primary to Andrew corn quote unquote foreign language.

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Speaker 1: So I and ultimately all of three useless years propaganda. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I probably to the extent that I know anything,

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Speaker 1: I probably I'm like more aware of a sort of

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Speaker 1: sugarcoated version of whatever whatever the funk is happening here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're we're today. We're going to tell the story about

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Speaker 1: how the Roman Republic became a police stay um which did,

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Speaker 1: which is quite a tale um I have. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've we'ven't. We haven't done a lot of ancient history

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Speaker 1: stuff on this podcast for good reasons, among other things,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to like get good details about

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Speaker 1: people who died two thousand years ago that aren't just

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Speaker 1: like nonsense propaganda, right, because it's usually just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: some like poem about some kings. History is written by

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Speaker 1: the winners, especially yeah, when it's like sucking epigrams like

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Speaker 1: leftover from the Roman But also I I feel like

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Speaker 1: they're they're the the The worry is the sliding scale

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Speaker 1: of bastardom through history is Yes, I would imagine the

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Speaker 1: trickiest part because it's like there's sort of like no

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Speaker 1: amount of fascism and or um, you know, brutality that

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Speaker 1: doesn't eventually get justified by everyone else was doing it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that that's like it's are you gonna call

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Speaker 1: like Genghis Khan a bastard? Okay, well then like what

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Speaker 1: like sure, but but what is I It seems like

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Speaker 1: kind of pointless to be like and this guy was

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Speaker 1: a king who murdered people when it's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they all were, like why why is that? Like nobody's

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Speaker 1: like really going other than some people were better at it.

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Speaker 1: It's not that interesting to talk about them being like shitty,

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Speaker 1: that's not the One of the cool things about the

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Speaker 1: Roman Republic is number one, we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: detail on these guys and all that's bad, right, all

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Speaker 1: of our historians are propagandists, but at least there's more

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Speaker 1: than one of them. So you get like the this

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Speaker 1: dude rocked and like this dude was terrible story usually um.

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Speaker 1: And number two, they're basically exactly the same as modern

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Speaker 1: Americans um politically, so you get really modern like political

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Speaker 1: dick moves from from from from terrible people in a

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Speaker 1: way that's like very familiar. Um. And in fact, like

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Speaker 1: so we're talking about a lot of the things that

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Speaker 1: led up to the fall of the Roman Republic, and

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Speaker 1: like the end of of you the kind of democratic

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Speaker 1: experiment that had existed there for a few centuries. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that like people are talking about a

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Speaker 1: lot right now. So when when you get like history

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Speaker 1: nerds talking about how funked up politics are in America,

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Speaker 1: they're either going to go back to Weimar Germany, which

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Speaker 1: we've already done, or they're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: fall of the Roman Republic, which is why there's like

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Speaker 1: three three books out right. It's like three or four

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Speaker 1: books that have come out in the last year that

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Speaker 1: are like, here's what the Fall of the Roman Republic

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Speaker 1: can teach us about the fall of American or like

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Speaker 1: what's happening in American democracy. Most of these books are stupid. Um.

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Speaker 1: There is one really good book by podcaster Mike Duncan

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Speaker 1: who does the Revolutions podcast, called The Storm Before the Storm.

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Speaker 1: That's the one I would recommend if you want to

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Speaker 1: read a book like that. We're not gonna mainly be

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Speaker 1: telling that story. Instead, we're gonna talk about how Rome

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Speaker 1: invented militarized policing and the first police state and kind

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Speaker 1: of the first fbi um, because that's not a history,

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Speaker 1: and I think most people know, and it's pretty cool. Um,

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Speaker 1: but first we're going to talk about well some guys, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a lot of ship. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to cover quite a bit of ground today.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons we don't do so

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Speaker 1: many ancient history ones, because it's like, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: if you want to tell this story, you have to

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Speaker 1: go through like a thousand years shit. Yeah. Well, also

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Speaker 1: because the audience is like, like me, probably is like

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Speaker 1: not just a thousand years of ship, but so much

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Speaker 1: backstory in context. Yeah, I don't envy you. You have

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Speaker 1: to explain a lot. But thankfully the Romans were pretty

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Speaker 1: entertaining sons of bitches, um, not if they were killing

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Speaker 1: or enslaving you, but like sometimes if they were enslaving you.

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Speaker 1: There were some Greeks who had fun with that. So

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Speaker 1: the city of Rome andrew founded on April one, seven

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Speaker 1: fifty three BC by two brothers who were nursed by

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Speaker 1: a wolf. If you believe the myths that a lot

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Speaker 1: of Romans didn't believe, right, like, these are like the

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Speaker 1: things that we we we tell about Lindon, this is

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Speaker 1: what the Romans thought, Like most of them are like

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Speaker 1: I don't. I've never seen a wolf nurse two babies,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't think statue of of the of like

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Speaker 1: to two infants sucking on a wolf's breasts is or

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the statue in my living room, right,

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Speaker 1: yeah you know I have that instead of a television. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I made it out of a macaroni. Yes, um, just

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Speaker 1: harrowing stuff if you think about it, like it's just

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Speaker 1: so gross. Yeah, bad for the wolf, bad for the babies,

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Speaker 1: for anyone. But yeah, this is Romulus and Remus, right,

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Speaker 1: like that's the that's the legend. There's a good line

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Speaker 1: in um. I think it's the movie Spartacus where Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar and I believe it would have been Pompy are

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Speaker 1: like walking around and talking about like they're walking past

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Speaker 1: like a temple, and Caesar asked a question like don't

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Speaker 1: you venerate the gods and and Pompys Like well, publicly sure,

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Speaker 1: but privately I don't believe in any of them. And

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Speaker 1: that's probably how it was for a lot of Romans.

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Speaker 1: Like everyone's like, people aren't lockstep believing these silly as myths,

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Speaker 1: but this is the myth. April seventh through fifty three BC,

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Speaker 1: which is a slutely not when Rome was founded. Archaeologists

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Speaker 1: know that people have been living in that spot for

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Speaker 1: about fourteen thousand years um, because very rarely do just

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Speaker 1: there's just like a bunch of people suddenly arrive at

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Speaker 1: a chunk of land and be like and now it's

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Speaker 1: a city. That's not. Yeah, you just have like groups

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Speaker 1: of people farming. Like Rome has a bunch of hills,

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Speaker 1: so you could set up shop on a hill. It's

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Speaker 1: a good place to grow food. You can beat up

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Speaker 1: people if they try to like come onto your property

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Speaker 1: and stuff, because hills are easy to defend. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's just a good place for people to exist up

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Speaker 1: until the present day, where it's about to die because

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Speaker 1: there's no water. But for a while it was a

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Speaker 1: good place to be a person until we invented the car.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we're changing, we're changing the good places to be

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Speaker 1: a person. Yeah. Yeah, everybody's gonna have to go. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's not gonna be so many Italians in the future.

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Speaker 1: I was just I was just in Yeah, right, I

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Speaker 1: guess peninsula. Peninsula life is about to be Island life

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Speaker 1: is about to be Atlantis life. Yeah, I us just

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Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, and there was a real palpable sense of like,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be the new Miami Soude. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Minneapolis is going to be dealing with those hundred and

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Speaker 1: ten degree days. Time to get your beach body on,

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Speaker 1: Midwesterners or whatever part of the country. Minneapolis is lakes

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Speaker 1: fucking lakes. So even ancient Romans had a lot of

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Speaker 1: competing stories about the founding of the city. Uh. Probably

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Speaker 1: most likely, like most of them, tended to think that

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Speaker 1: it had been basically like a Greek colonial offshoot. There. Later,

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Speaker 1: when Rome becomes an empire, there's this state propaganda line

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Speaker 1: that it had been founded by a bunch of Trojan

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Speaker 1: war refugees and a Trojan king named Aeneas. None of

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Speaker 1: that's true either, um, and it doesn't really matter what.

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Speaker 1: What we definitely know is that sometime around the seven

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Speaker 1: hundred spec uh, there's this city state called Rome that

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Speaker 1: kind of comes together, probably from a bunch of different

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Speaker 1: light communities in the area, gradually sort of you know, merging,

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Speaker 1: and it starts to gain power and influence in central Italy. Now,

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Speaker 1: like most places, it's ruled by kings, and over time,

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Speaker 1: the Latins, who were like a tribe, right the Latins

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Speaker 1: are a tribe in Italy, and it's because they speak

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Speaker 1: Latin that that's yeah, or or vice versa. But yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: these these at this point, they're just like primitive tribesmen

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Speaker 1: wandering around Italy. They don't even know that in a

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Speaker 1: couple of thousand years you and I will be learning

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Speaker 1: their language badly, uh Eca, Romani and whatnot, because we

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Speaker 1: because we got scared by French and didn't want to

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Speaker 1: have to the pressure of learning a real language. I

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Speaker 1: honestly I cannot get back into the mindset of the bozoh.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't made the decision in middle school to just

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Speaker 1: be like, you know what Latin. I think I was

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Speaker 1: intimidated by like, oh no, that I don't want to

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Speaker 1: have to because the thing they promised us is you

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Speaker 1: don't have to do like pronunciation tests because nobody knows

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Speaker 1: how a lot of Latin was spro spoken. I did

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Speaker 1: actually my senior year of high school, they let me

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Speaker 1: go to the university and take Italian, oh, which Latin,

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Speaker 1: bicy Latin did not help me out very much for

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Speaker 1: I have so my family is incredibly fucking like my

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Speaker 1: my dad is first generation like American, like that's how

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Speaker 1: Italian my family is. And we had some relatives when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid come over who spoke only Italian,

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Speaker 1: and because they were old Catholics, Latin and so when

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Speaker 1: they were in town, my dad, who was also an

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Speaker 1: old Catholic, had to like translate for them, so they

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Speaker 1: would speak in Latin and then my dad would translate

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Speaker 1: to the rest of the family. Damn. Yeah, um, which

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Speaker 1: I think makes this yet crazy. Well, that was your

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Speaker 1: your Romulus is air, that's what everybody says. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that was one of the benefits of the fact that,

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Speaker 1: like all church services in the Catholic Church took place

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Speaker 1: in Latin. Is that like you could have people from

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Speaker 1: like England and Spain and fucking Portugal all in the

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Speaker 1: same room and they might not speak each other's land

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Speaker 1: which is but they all know Latin, right because they

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Speaker 1: have to do the Jesus stuff. Um So anyway, uh so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you get these Latins hanging around, and you know, these

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Speaker 1: are the people who are going to become the Romans,

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Speaker 1: but at the time they're just like some other group

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Speaker 1: of assholes in Italy. And these dudes called the Etruscans

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Speaker 1: are much more powerful and there's this Etruscan dynasty that

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Speaker 1: comes to be the Kings of Rome, known as the

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Speaker 1: Great House of Tarquin. But that's just kind of like

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Speaker 1: what more modern people call them. They were not a

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Speaker 1: great house. This is not game of throne ship. These

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Speaker 1: guys are like like petty petty chiefs. These are like

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Speaker 1: dudes with like sharpened sticks beating anybody who like the

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Speaker 1: tark Wins are the guys who have the most muscly

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Speaker 1: friends with sharpened sticks and are the best at stabbing

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Speaker 1: people who don't pay protection money. Right. Think of them

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Speaker 1: more as like street thugs than it's always it's always like, uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's organized crime until it's taxes, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And like the so they in the seven hundreds, they

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Speaker 1: kind of start to make the jump from organized crime

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Speaker 1: to taxes, but it's still more organized crime than anything.

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Speaker 1: So for a while Rome is like pretty much every

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Speaker 1: other city in the Mediterranean, um, and then in the

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Speaker 1: five hundreds ship changes. Um. The last king of Rome

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Speaker 1: is a guy named Lucius tarquinas Superbus, which is where

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Speaker 1: we get the words superb, although that's like anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: the nickname people gave him, and it's kind of Romans

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Speaker 1: have like a history of like this guy's an asshole.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's call him great or like superb or like

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Speaker 1: an awesome or something. Um. So, he's he gets to

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Speaker 1: power like five thirty four BC. He has a pretty

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Speaker 1: good reign for a while. He wins a bunch of

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Speaker 1: wars um, he signs the city's first treaty with Carthage.

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Speaker 1: He builds a big gas temple um and yeah, he

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Speaker 1: enslaves a bunch of people to make the first sewers

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Speaker 1: and drainage systems in Rome. Um. So he's he's definitely like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's solid king stuff. He's he's he's made

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Speaker 1: a step beyond gang leader. When you're making sewage, you've

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Speaker 1: made a move, have passed past gang shit. Um. And then,

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Speaker 1: according to myth, his son rapes a Roman noble woman

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Speaker 1: named Lucretia um and this this becomes a problem for him.

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Speaker 1: Here's how the Getty summarizes what's said to have happened.

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Speaker 1: The tragedy of Lucretia began when Sextist, son of the

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Speaker 1: tyrannical Etruscan King of Rome and member of the Tarquin family,

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Speaker 1: raped her. For the ancient Romans, a woman who was raped,

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Speaker 1: was guilty of adultery, a crime punishable by death, even

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Speaker 1: though she had not given herself willingly. After she was raped,

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Speaker 1: Lucretia made her husband and father swear an oath of

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Speaker 1: vengeance against the Tarkwin's, and then killed herself in shame.

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Speaker 1: Enraged by her death, Junius Brutus led a victorious rebellion

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Speaker 1: against the Etruscan king. So a couple of things there.

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Speaker 1: A couple of things there. Number one looked, obviously you

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Speaker 1: should be angry at the guy who did the rape,

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Speaker 1: but also most of your anger might be at like

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Speaker 1: the social custom that says that she has to kill

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Speaker 1: herself after this, Like that might that might be the

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Speaker 1: thing to be angrier at. The people don't think that way.

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Speaker 1: I guess it really is like this, this like it's

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Speaker 1: it's spoken so a matter of factly, and this is

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Speaker 1: where like the context of it makes it so hard

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Speaker 1: to figure out what the what the approach of this

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Speaker 1: is because I mean, look, the entire misogynist society, like

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Speaker 1: every misogyst society, this one, you know, worse by modern standards,

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Speaker 1: but you know it's pretty normal behind the yeah, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then you're just like you know, you're the family

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Speaker 1: members watching this happen, enraged that this had to happen,

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Speaker 1: but not not because of the like the society. Like

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like this classic everyone is always mad

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Speaker 1: at the wrong thing it is. It's also, though, I

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Speaker 1: think if you get yourself in a different mind state,

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Speaker 1: you can really feel this because like this is a

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Speaker 1: stupid rule that's like cruel and evil and is it

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Speaker 1: makes like a bad situation even more horrifying, and like

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Speaker 1: we can look at that as like, oh, look at

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Speaker 1: these fund up people in their cocked up rules. But

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Speaker 1: also the story you get is that like all of

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Speaker 1: the Romans are pissed at this, and Lucretia is a

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Speaker 1: sympathetic figure in their history. And think about all of

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Speaker 1: the different times in recent past when like everyone in

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Speaker 1: America has been like, wait, that's the law, that's the

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Speaker 1: way it works. That's stupid as ship, why the hell

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Speaker 1: are we doing it this way? But then the stupid

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Speaker 1: thing happens. That's fucked up because like can't change the law, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or we're not going to yeah, I mean you can't

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Speaker 1: just change laws. And you get the feeling that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the attitude people have. It's like, well, this is

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Speaker 1: all like stupid and fucked up. But at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, the only person we can really take

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Speaker 1: our anger out on is the Tarquin families. Let's get

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Speaker 1: them kings out of here um, which they do. And

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Speaker 1: it's also worth noting the guy who leads the rebellion,

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Speaker 1: Junius Brutus. That name Brutus should be familiar, right, that's

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Speaker 1: the guy who kills Well that the guy who kills

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Speaker 1: Caesar is this kid's descendant, you know, hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 1: of years down the line. That's part of why he

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Speaker 1: kills Caesar's his family's got this reputation of like when

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Speaker 1: people try to do kings stuff, murder them anyway, to

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Speaker 1: be fair, pretty good family tradition. It's a cool family tradition.

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Speaker 1: It does. So Junius Brutus is one of like forty

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Speaker 1: guys that all have the same name. So one of

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Speaker 1: the cool things in Roman history, and by cool I

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Speaker 1: mean very frustrating, is that if there's ever a guy

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Speaker 1: who does anything worth noting, there will be three other

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Speaker 1: guys who are also really important with the exact same name,

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Speaker 1: because that's how the Romans did things. To be like, yes,

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Speaker 1: Scipio Africanus. Well, which one the one from like the

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Speaker 1: one sixties or the one from like the or like

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Speaker 1: the two d the one from the one fifties and like, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's very frustrating, but that's if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: early on in Western civilization. How many names you can't

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Speaker 1: have that there's like seven names? Yeah, there's like seven names. Um.

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Speaker 1: So the details of obviously the Lucretia story are almost

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Speaker 1: certainly not exact, but there's a pretty decent chance that

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Speaker 1: it broadly is accurate as to what caused the insurrection

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Speaker 1: against Etruscan power. Um. Most people probably heard of the

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Speaker 1: right of prima nocta right which you see in Brave Heart.

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Speaker 1: You know this this right that like nobles supposedly had

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Speaker 1: to have sex with a woman the first night after

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Speaker 1: a marriage and stuff that. Like in Brave Heart, this

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Speaker 1: is depicted as like what sparks the Scottish. But it's

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Speaker 1: not a real thing. It never it was not a

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Speaker 1: thing in any medieval law. It didn't happen. It certainly

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with fucking William Wallace. Um. There

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Speaker 1: were some similar rules in history. The Epic of Gilgamesh

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Speaker 1: references customs that are similar to that, as do Herodotus histories.

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Speaker 1: And we know that around this same period at least

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Speaker 1: one other Italian city revolted from Etruscan control because their

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Speaker 1: women were abused. You know, you often don't get a

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Speaker 1: lot of detail about this, just something notes that, like

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Speaker 1: they were angry about something the Etruscans had done to

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Speaker 1: their women, and so like there's a war and they win,

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Speaker 1: right right, yeah, right, and it is yeah, that's history.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's yeah, I mean often angry that they're

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Speaker 1: doing the thing because you were supposed to be doing

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Speaker 1: the thing. But yeah, well it's just like you know,

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Speaker 1: military occupations haven't changed, you can there's a long ugly

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Speaker 1: history of like when the US occupied Japan, you know,

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Speaker 1: raped by US service members and stuff that caused a

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Speaker 1: lot of problems. And that's it's the thing everywhere. It's

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Speaker 1: a thing in interrac it's the thing all throughout history. Um,

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Speaker 1: so whatever the excesses of Rome's last king, uh, they

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Speaker 1: kick out that last dude, Tarquin and a republic is

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Speaker 1: founded in five oh nine b c e UM. And

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Speaker 1: it was it was not a super different government in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways from the ones that are quote

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Speaker 1: unquote founding fathers established UM, and what I mean by

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Speaker 1: that is that only the very wealthiest people could actually

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Speaker 1: hold office UM. Now, one thing that's interesting is that

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Speaker 1: like pretty much everyone could vote though, so they didn't

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Speaker 1: have that difference like when when the United States is established,

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Speaker 1: you have to be like a property owning white male

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Speaker 1: in order to vote UM, and it's not until later

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Speaker 1: that every guy gets the vote. Basically, every freeman has

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Speaker 1: a vote in the Roman Republic. But it also doesn't

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Speaker 1: really work that way because so the Romans have this

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Speaker 1: this system, the client system, where every rich guy just

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Speaker 1: over the course of their life picks up hundreds or

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Speaker 1: even thousands or tens of thousands of like clients. And

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Speaker 1: these are like dudes who he has to give them

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Speaker 1: money and or food or something on a pretty regular basis.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like their social welfare program. Like this

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Speaker 1: rich guy has to take care of you a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but you have to do what he says when it's

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Speaker 1: time to vote, right, And this is kind of what

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Speaker 1: they have instead of political parties is these coalitions of

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Speaker 1: rich guys and their clients who are like, well, like

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Speaker 1: this is the guy that like my family, we all

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Speaker 1: go and he gives us bread every couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: and we vote for right. I guess it is just

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Speaker 1: the like local local gang leader. Yeah, it's a little

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Speaker 1: different from that yet at this point in that there's

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Speaker 1: not really violent coercion holding that together. At this point,

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Speaker 1: it's more like an extension of like the way familial

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Speaker 1: units and tribes and stuff would have worked in In In fact,

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Speaker 1: a lot of it kind of is based on tribal stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, um, probably likely, well probably I make that

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Speaker 1: point because these are going to turn into street gangs.

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Speaker 1: This absolutely ends with street gangs of people murdering each other.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean yeah it was. It's almost it's

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Speaker 1: like the same as the electoral college, or like you know,

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Speaker 1: it's exactly like the electoral college. Yeah, and we in

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Speaker 1: American need to get to the point where our electoral

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Speaker 1: college is just several hundred people beating each other to

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Speaker 1: death with SAPs in the street. We're getting closer every everything.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm waiting for it. I gotta fucking baseball

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Speaker 1: bat with a nail through it. I'm I'm down. Let's

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Speaker 1: let's let's become electors. Do you do you put the

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Speaker 1: nail like a big nail through making. You got a

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Speaker 1: couple of options, so yeah, I mean, I think you

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Speaker 1: just One of the better ways is you just kind

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Speaker 1: of like hammer the nail in through the edges and stuff,

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Speaker 1: so you get a couple of different nails poking out.

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Speaker 1: Another thing you could do you can actually like get

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Speaker 1: long screws and just like screw with like a like

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Speaker 1: a drill through a couple of areas of the bat.

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Speaker 1: That'll that'll help you. Like that's a little bit easier. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, a fun thing to do is you get

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Speaker 1: some like JB. Wild or a POxy or something. You

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Speaker 1: cut little runnels in the sides of the bat. You

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Speaker 1: jam razor blades in there, and yeah, you're kind of

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Speaker 1: making like a maquahedel. Anyway, I think I know what

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Speaker 1: that is, the stick with the It's like what the

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Speaker 1: Aztecs used. It's like the stick with all the obsidian,

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Speaker 1: but using dollar store razor blades on a baseball bat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: right right, anyway, I get I'm just I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not as crafty, but I just got an electric drill,

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, you know, man, do this anywhere to

422
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Speaker 1: interrupt the spark in your eye when I asked you

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Speaker 1: how to make a spike bat a little a little much.

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Speaker 1: I knew one of these days, Yeah, one of these days.

425
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: That's that's what We'll get back to the roots of

426
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: Western democracy and I'll be able to have a street

427
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: fight with my home made razor bat. Um. So, yeah,

428
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: you got all these So the Roman Republic, yeah, five

429
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: o nine BC. And you know, we don't exactly know

430
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: what all of the rules were at the start of

431
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 1: the republic because they were unwritten. Um So their constitution

432
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: is like it's not put down anywhere. It exists only

433
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 1: in the memories of the oldest rich people. So it's

434
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,719
Speaker 1: kind of like all of the rules are like whatever

435
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: the old people say they are. Um. So, again, very

436
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: similar to our current system in a lot of ways.

437
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: Um And yeah, what if Thomas Jefferson think, oh, now

438
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: the Senate parliamentary and is a thing that matters, Like

439
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: nobody thought about this before, but suddenly it's a huge problem.

440
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: Um So this caused problems over time, which I know

441
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: will surprise you because those patricians and patricians are like

442
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: they're basically nobility. At the start of the Roman Empire,

443
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: they're all of the rich people who's like, families have

444
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: been powerful for a long time. Um and yeah, they

445
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: are the ones who kind of get to tell everyone

446
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: what the constitution says effectively, and people say, yeah, it's

447
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: extremely American. These are the most American, but the Roman

448
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: Republic is the most American thing that ever existed. Um.

449
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: So the poor, the pleabs, the poor people, you know,

450
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: or at least you could call them the regular people

451
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: start to be like, well, this doesn't seem like a

452
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: very good system, Like if we're supposed to be a republic,

453
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: it kind of seems like this, this is a bad

454
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: way to do things. Um and yeah. It also over time,

455
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: as the republic goes on, it starts to change, like

456
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: the wealth situations. So the patricians are like noble because

457
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: of their birth, but they're not necessarily rich, um because

458
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: number one, they have all these obligations. So they have

459
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: all these clients that they have to like pay and feed,

460
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: and they have all these like when they get political office,

461
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: that often means they have to throw parties for everybody

462
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: in the city or like big religious festivals. So a

463
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: lot of them are fucking broke all of the time.

464
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: And this class of merchants rises up who aren't noble,

465
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: but they have a bunch of money. And they're like, well,

466
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: we're the ones paying for everything now, like one way

467
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: or the other. And we're like buying these patricians and

468
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: having them do stuff. Why don't we get to like

469
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: hold political office or have any kind of power. Um.

470
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: And part of like what's fucking these patricians over is

471
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: that the only way that they can acceptably make money

472
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 1: is like either going to war and conquering shit or

473
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: like agriculture. It's kind of considered gross for them to

474
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: be in business. So anyway, ship starts to change in

475
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: Rome and you get this like wealthy class of people

476
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: who are like plebeian but but have money. Um. And

477
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: over time, like the folks who are not patrician get

478
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: increasingly angry, and you know, you get your riots and

479
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: you get people threatening each other in the streets. And

480
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: then in four one BC they force the patricians to

481
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: commission a series to actually write out a constitution where

482
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, we're gonna actually like lay out what

483
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: the rules are in a way that people can see

484
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to us just being like oh yeah, I

485
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: remember the way. It's all it's supposed to be. I

486
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: remember how the law works. Um, So because it's the past,

487
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: they just like hammer a bunch of rules into big

488
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: bronze tablets, twelve of them, and stick them in the

489
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: center of town, so that if you want to know

490
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: what the law is, you just like walk up to

491
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: the bronze tablets and read them, um, which is a

492
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: flich is a fun way to do it. Now, Like

493
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: all democratic compromises, the new written Constitution codified extraordinary powers

494
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: for the wealthy. Most of it dealt with debts and debtors,

495
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: and noted that in the event that a debtor was

496
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: ruled to have failed to like pay a debt uh,

497
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: he would have to be basically on the after three

498
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: days or so, he would either be executed or sold

499
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: uh into slavery. So like, debt's a serious thing. And

500
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: this is on the separate point. Something that like a

501
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: Corey doctor and a couple of other people will make

502
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: a point of is that, like the Romans were the

503
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: first people would be like, debt is a thing that

504
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: exists forever for you and eventually like your family, as

505
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: opposed to like every twenty years we'd have a jubilee

506
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: and there's no more debt the Romans, because they have

507
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: this entrenched power structure that actually holds. You don't have

508
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: like a king who might be like, well, every twenty

509
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: years or so, I'm gonna do a jubilee because then

510
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: people get their debts cleared and they like the king more.

511
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: Now the people running it are like all of the

512
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: rich people, and they're like, well, no, we're never gonna

513
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: white people's debts. Where the funk would we do that? Ship,

514
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: And so that's where that whole process starts in history.

515
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: That's the source of our power right right as opposed. Yeah,

516
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: when it switched from large as to money, you know what,

517
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 1: making me miss kings Robert. Yeah, well it's not entirely

518
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: a good thing that they get rid of theirs, I

519
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: guess um. The Constitution also enshrined incredible powers for Roman men.

520
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: The pattern familius, or the head of each family was

521
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: essentially a little dictator. So we don't have a king,

522
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: but like if you're the dad, you you have the

523
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: absolute power of life and death. So number one, deformed

524
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: children have to be killed immediately. That's one of their

525
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: that's like there, that's like their first amendment in ancient

526
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: rome Um, which you know it's the past. Um. And

527
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: fathers have the power of life and death over their children,

528
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: UM and their wife. So you can, as the father,

529
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: execute your kids or other members of your family anytime

530
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: you want to. Um, the classic law of I brought

531
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: you into this world, I can take you out. Yeah,

532
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: which one is the most important societal bedrock? Look, if

533
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: that was the rule, I would have kids. I'd have

534
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: a buckload of kids, and they'd be they'd be doing

535
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: a lot of work for me. So. Um. There are

536
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: some like more sensible rules though, that kind of limits. So,

537
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: among other things, if you're a dad and you sell

538
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: your kid into slavery three times, um, then your son

539
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: no longer has to do what you say. I don't

540
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: know why three times is the rule, but like you

541
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: have to pick a number. I guess where. It's like

542
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: Genie ship, what is happening here? Uh, It's it's cool.

543
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, it's it's good stuff. It's this weird

544
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: mix of like nightmare social laws and then like broadly

545
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: reasonable stuff like yeah, if a child's born within ten

546
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: months of the father's death, they get some of the inheritance,

547
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, like stuff like that. It's like, well, that's

548
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: just like a pretty reasonable solution to a problem. Um. Now,

549
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: the Twelve Tables also note that women are always legally children.

550
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: They always have to have a guardian. This is because

551
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: of quote their levity of mind. Uh. And the only

552
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: exception to this are the vestal virgins, which are basically

553
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: older like O. G. Nuns um, but they're much cooler

554
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: than the nuns um and a lot more weird sex

555
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: stuff going on allegedly. And you know who else is

556
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: allegedly engaging in a lot of weird sex shit. Andrew

557
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: Yo hit me the products and services that support this podcast.

558
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: They never stop fucking, not not not once. And that

559
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: ship I was gonna say, is not in the Bible,

560
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 1: but it very much is in the Bible. What they're doing,

561
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: most of what they're doing is in the Bible. But

562
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: they go off the map every now and then. You

563
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: know it's gonna enter any situation. It goes into cock first,

564
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: and you don't know what's going to happen. Like they're

565
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: just they're just gonna they live to penetrate. That's actually

566
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: the corporate motto, we live to penetrate. I was going

567
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: to ask you which sponsor you were specifically referring to

568
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: and then I realized that you already had one in mind,

569
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 1: and that sorry, good luck with that. Bleep. I know

570
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: you love it. I would love I would love a

571
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: Bible that has like a just like a map of

572
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, the Bible, parts of the parts of the

573
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: Bible story like like the like an edition of Lord

574
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: of the Rings or whatever, just like a little map

575
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: of the front page. Yeah, lit, they should do that.

576
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: They probably do. So there's this broad understanding that political

577
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: violence is undesirable, um, and there's actually not as far

578
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 1: as we can tell. It doesn't seem to have been

579
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: a thing that happened very often, um in in the

580
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: early Republic, right, like when people had political disputes, they

581
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: didn't murder each other generally, which is a big thing

582
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: right in this period of time, If you've like gotten

583
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: to that point in your society, that's pretty cool. Um.

584
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: We have trouble with that today. We don't. We don't

585
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah. And one of the reasons for this,

586
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: so the Romans have this written constitution kind of thing. Now,

587
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: they also have this thing called the most mal um,

588
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: which is it just literally means way of the ancestors,

589
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: and it's it's another unwritten legal code kind of and

590
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: it's basically just a bunch of like, you don't murder

591
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: people who are elected leaders, you know, you don't like

592
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: bribe people in order to make them vote the way

593
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: you want. You don't do this, you don't do that, um.

594
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of different things in there, including

595
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: there's a rule that you don't carry weapons inside the city. Now,

596
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 1: this band gets misinterpreted a lot of times. You might

597
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: think of it as the ancient equivalent of an assault

598
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: weapons ban, right, So they're not banning all weapons because spoilers,

599
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: everybody still has weapons, but they don't have military weapons,

600
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: so they're not support you're it's like you can get

601
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: executed and ship if you're caught carrying a sword or

602
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: like a dagger within the what's called the pomarium, which

603
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: is this like kind of sacred quasi ethereal boundary that

604
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: like is the supposed to be the actual like boundary

605
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: of rome Um. Now obviously, so again this just refers

606
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: to like military weapons. So when people do have fights

607
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: and stuff, they'll usually have like chair legs that they'll

608
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: stick sharp things into, or they'll they'll make SAPs or

609
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: brass knuckles are super popular. The Romans have their own

610
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, they call it a cestis. Yeah,

611
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: it's basically brass knuckles or like punch daggers that like

612
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: really nasty fighting weapons, right, so you don't have swords

613
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: and stuff. So people are just like calling it and

614
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: beating the ship out of each other with like stuff

615
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: they make in their fucking garages. Um, which is pretty cool.

616
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: It's like the Warriors stuff, right, Like that's that's very

617
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: very Yeah, you spike bat is just too big? Yeah,

618
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: what's the what's the what's the fucking millwall thing where

619
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: you make it with just like a bunch of editions

620
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: of like the like the Daily Mirror or whatever. Yeah

621
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, for some fucking it's basically the Jason Bourne

622
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: shop where he fights a dude with the magazine or whatever. Yeah. Yeah,

623
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: I mean the the coolest thing that the fucking Romans

624
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: had was this thing called a cestus or castis or whatever,

625
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: and it was basically it was like a boxing glove

626
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: that had was covered in iron balls, so that like

627
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: when you so it's like this combination box singlove slash,

628
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: brass knuckles and yeah you can eat. Yeah, they so

629
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: they had plenty of weapons, they just did not allow

630
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: military weapons. And you're not allowed to bring soldiers into

631
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: the city of Rome. Nobody can take an army into Rome.

632
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: They have to camp outside of the city if you've

633
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: got an army nearby, because again they recognize pretty early

634
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: on that, like, well, if we want to have a republic,

635
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: it's probably a bad idea to let people march their

636
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: army into the city. That could end badly, that might

637
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: not go well. Um, but most of this stuff is

638
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: just like it's not written law. It's everybody knows that

639
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to do these things, right, right, A

640
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: wonderful way to run a government. Yes, a norm, right,

641
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: these are their norms. You know. The other thing, too,

642
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: is like the army thing is like I think it's

643
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: I mean obviously just because I'm a soft child of

644
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, but it is like wild to kind

645
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: of remember how threatening a parade really should be. Yeah,

646
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: a parade. I mean historically, the Romans are kind of

647
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: one of the first groups of people to try to

648
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: stop a raid from being a threat because they have

649
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: this these things called triumphs, and so if you win

650
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: a military victory, that's big enough, the Senate will vote

651
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: you a triumph and you basically are king of the

652
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: city for a day and you get to take your

653
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: army and march them through the city with all your captives,

654
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: and everybody pretty much worships you. But the whole time

655
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: you're doing it, Number one, it's just for a day,

656
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: And the whole time you're doing it, there's a guy

657
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: whose only job is to like walk behind you and

658
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: be like, hey, bro, you're gonna die one of these days.

659
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: Hey bro, Like you're still fucked. Like everybody's fucked. Nobody

660
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,959
Speaker 1: lives forever, Like you're not actually a king or a god.

661
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: You're gonna die, dude, like, which is kind of neat.

662
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: I think it's it's one of my favorite parts of

663
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: Roman history. Um yeah, so the best job, Yeah, civic life.

664
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: This These were the first. Like nowadays, anybody can like

665
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: go on Twitter and ratio a political leader, um, if

666
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: they're if they're good enough at trolling. This was. This

667
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: was that job in the ancient world, like the dude

668
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: who follows the imperatore around being like, hey bro, you

669
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: kind of suck. Actually, yeah exactly. My god, Rome would

670
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 1: have adopted Twitter immediately, like they basically they had like

671
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: like their Roman graffiti is a whole other story, but

672
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: like they had Twitter, they had their own Twitter. Um.

673
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: I think my favorite piece of Roman graffiti that was

674
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: like found in fucking POMPEII is this guy being like

675
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: all of the women in Rome or all of the

676
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: women in the Empire should weep because I'm just fucking

677
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: dudes now, Like I'm I'm so tired of fucking ladies.

678
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna i'm my dicks for nothing, but men. Now

679
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: that's pretty. That is peaked Twitter. It is incredibly peaked Twitter.

680
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: Amazing Twitter. How does it? What is it just like

681
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: paint and brush? I guess yeah, they're just like paint

682
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: and ship. Yeah, they've got paint, Like they're just like

683
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: painting stuff on walls and whatnot. I guess I was

684
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: just thinking, like the advent of spray paint for graffiti,

685
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: Like what again they would have taken to spray paint

686
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: Immediately you show like literally any Roman citizen spray paint

687
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh fuck, I'm gonna be able to

688
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: yell at like my neighbor so much more efficiently. Um,

689
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: you'll probably make a primitive air brush Yeah. So the

690
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: Roman system is it's it's a little bit wacky, but

691
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: it works really well, and for most of like three

692
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: hundred years they get by without any massive internal political violence. Now,

693
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: a big part of this is that for these first

694
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: couple of hundred years, Romans nearly destroyed. Like every thirty

695
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: years or so, like every couple of decades, somebody will

696
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: invade Italy and almost wipe them out. And usually the

697
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: way it goes is the Romans. There's an invasion, the

698
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: Romans get together a massive army and they send it

699
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: to fight the invasion, and they all get wiped out

700
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: because some idiot makes a stupid mistake on the Roman side.

701
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: And then the Romans some how put together another army

702
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: and eventually win the war. Um. And this is like

703
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: how every war works out for Rome. They take these

704
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: like the thing that distinguishes Romans as a military power

705
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: is they're able to like lose all of their guys

706
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: and then win the war anyway, um, which is like

707
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: a mixed sort of reputation to have militarily UM. A

708
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: good example of this would be the Pyric War from

709
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: two eighty to two seventy b c. The gist of

710
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: it is that the Romans go to war with a

711
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: bunch of Greek cities in southern Italy, and those Greek

712
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: cities are like, hey, we need help, and they called

713
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: to this Greek king over in Greece called Pyrus, and

714
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: he invades Italy to like funk up the Romans. And

715
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: Pirus is a scary old son of a bit. She's

716
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: got a big army, a bunch of war elephants, and

717
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: he just shatters the Roman military. And this series of

718
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: horrible grinding thousands and thousands of people massacred, but also

719
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: every battle is so ugly that like he loses most

720
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: of his army fighting it, so kind of at the

721
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: end of this series of battles, the Romans can't continue

722
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: to prosecute the war um. But Pirrus doesn't really want

723
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: to keep fighting either, because he doesn't have much of

724
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: an army left. And this is where we get the

725
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: term pyric victory, right. Um. So he like goes to

726
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: Rome and he's like, hey, guys, you're you're y'all are fucked,

727
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: let's do a peace deal. Um. And he offers them

728
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: pretty good terms. And I'm gonna quote what comes next

729
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: from a rite up in the New York Times. When

730
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: the Senate convened to debate the offer, an old blind

731
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: senator named Appius Claudius was carried into the Senate house

732
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: by his sons. As the chamber fell silent, he stood

733
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: to chastise his colleagues. I have, he said, long thought

734
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: of the unfortunate state of my eyes as an affliction.

735
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: But now that I hear you debates shameful resolutions which

736
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: would diminish the glory of Rome, I wish that I

737
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: were not only blind, but also death. By giving in

738
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: to Pyrus, Claudius warned, the Roman Republic would only invite

739
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: more outside powers to mess with it. Low as the

740
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: odds of victory might be, Rome had no choice but

741
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: to keep fighting, and they actually somehow win. Um. Pyrus like, yeah,

742
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's the whole thing. Um. He tries to

743
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: to bribe a bunch of his way out of like

744
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: fighting the more, but it doesn't work. Um. And yeah,

745
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: this is like this is a somewhat idolized version of

746
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: events of how like Warm beats Rome beats pirates And

747
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: it's based on the writings of a guy named Edward J. Watts,

748
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: who is one of these historians who's written a book

749
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: about the Roman Republic to talk about the collapse of

750
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: the United States. Um. Yeah, But as kind of biased

751
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: as his take on things is, it is worth noting

752
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: that like what they build really works, like as flawed

753
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: as we're going to talk about all of the flaws

754
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: as it is, the Romans create this political structure that's

755
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: able to like repeatedly almost get wiped out in disastrous

756
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: military defeats and not lose wars um. And part of

757
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: it is because everybody's got skin in the game. The

758
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: entire ruling class is out there fighting whenever there's a war,

759
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: along with like all of the and and in fact,

760
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: most of the people fighting are people with like property.

761
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 1: The Roman army, you have to pay for your own weapons,

762
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: so poor people are not fighting. It's basically like the

763
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: middle class and the rich people who are actually like

764
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: going to war. And one of the downsides is that

765
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: all of their armies are led by the equivalent of

766
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 1: like Nancy Pelosi, which goes really badly sometimes, right because

767
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: you'll have like this eighty year old career politician trying

768
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: to like lead an army of seventy thousand guys and

769
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what the funk he's doing? Um, probably

770
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: there there's some argument that that is sort of why

771
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: the first the first crack at our first draft. At

772
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: any given Roman army is sort of just the ship

773
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: that needs to be exactly They all it's the guys

774
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: who suck the most, and you get like Ted Cruz

775
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: out there, and you just need to get rid of him.

776
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: Anyone who survives that first one plus the fresh recruits

777
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: is probably the way to go. Yeah, we gotta burn

778
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: off an army before we can get anything done. Yeah,

779
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: it's like making it's like making pancakes. The first one's

780
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: just for the trash. If we had invaded Afghanistan by

781
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: sending all of Congress in first, I think the United

782
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: States and Afghanistan would be in a state of perfect

783
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: peace with each other and there would be no more

784
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: problems in the world. I mean truly, this, like you know,

785
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: are the that is the least American thing about this

786
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: is about this particular iteration of Rome is putting middle

787
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: class and nobles on the line at all. Yeah, um,

788
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: if only, if only, but all of these nobles they

789
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: have fucking so like one of the things pirates tries

790
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: to bribe a bunch of guys and he can't bribe

791
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: them because they're like, well, no, this is like my

792
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: whole family's fighting, Like this is what we do. We

793
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: have this like system and we're kind of all in

794
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: it together. And one of the reasons this works is

795
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: that there's not a massive like there's rich people and

796
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: there's poor people. But within all of the people who

797
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: the freemen who have property, there's not a massive disparity

798
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: in wealth. Right, the rich are not very rich, um,

799
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: because like it's Rome's just kind of this scrappy little

800
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: city in the middle of Italy. Right, it's not like

801
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: this super powerful force. Um. But as time goes on,

802
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: they keep winning these wars, and so they wind up

803
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 1: in control of more and more and more of Italy,

804
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: and they get all of this land, and all of

805
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: this money starts coming in, and that's when things start

806
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: to go awry. Right. So, after Rome beats Purists and

807
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: conquers most of southern Italy, they settle into what's what's

808
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: going to be two hundred straight years of unbroken victories

809
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: in foreign wars. Rome's military record here Basically they spend

810
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: the length of the time that the United States has

811
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: existed as a country winning every fight they get into, um,

812
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: which is like a pretty solid record. Now they lose

813
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: battles constantly, like with Devon in the First Punic War,

814
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: which starts in two sixty BC. This is with Carthage.

815
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: It lasts twenty years. Like to tell you how silly

816
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 1: some of their wars go. So this war starts with

817
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: Rome going to Sicily to fight Carthage and they win there.

818
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: They invade North Africa and they win what's probably what

819
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: might be the largest naval battle in all history still

820
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: to this day. Like if you listen to the historians,

821
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: then it's like three hundred thousand people are all fighting

822
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: in boats. Um. And again this is like twenty three

823
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: hundred years ago. Fucking wild, how like many people that

824
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: they could put together at this point. Um. But they

825
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: win this series of battles. They win these naval battles.

826
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: Carthage sues for peace and Rome refuses to like have peace,

827
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: So Carthage keeps fighting and then beats them and like

828
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: chatters a Roman army. So Rome has to send a

829
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: fleet to evacuate the remains of this army that's gotten

830
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: it's askect in Africa, and then the entire fleet and

831
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand men all die in a storm like

832
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: heading back to Italy. That kind of ship happens constantly

833
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: to the Romans, and it just never stops them. Um.

834
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: Then you've got the Second Punic War, which starts into

835
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: eighteen BC. It also lasts like twenty fucking years. And

836
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: there's like we've talked about the Battle of kan I,

837
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: which is one of the most famous battles in history. Hannibal,

838
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, the elephant guy encircles their army and kills

839
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: fifty thou Romans in a day. It's like ten percent

840
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: of the male population of the Republic he like wipes out,

841
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: including like eight senators, like a bunch of a significant

842
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: percentage of the Roman It's like if it's like if

843
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: the United States had like ten percent of its male

844
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: population and half of its political class wiped out in

845
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: a battle in fucking Afghanistan. Um, Like, it's pretty it's

846
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: it's a bad day for them, and they just do

847
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: the same thing they always do. They make more guys senators,

848
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: they make more guys soldiers, and they send them back

849
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: out to fight, right um Um, And it's it's fine. Um.

850
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: But while these wars are going on, and they win

851
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: these wars. They win the First Punic War, they win

852
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: the Second Punic War, they get control of Sicily, they

853
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: get a bunch of influence and power in northern uh

854
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: in Northern Africa. They take control of all of Spain

855
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: in the Second Punic War, like Rome is now running Iberia.

856
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: While all this is going on, a couple of other

857
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: things are happening. One is that a lot of Roman

858
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: soldiers are dying right like shipload because Nancy Pelosi is

859
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: very often the battlefield commander, and she's not very good

860
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: at that. Um And and since these guys these are

861
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: like the Roman middle class, right, most of them are

862
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: small independent farmers. They have enough money to buy their

863
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: own weapons and armor and stuff and sometimes even horses.

864
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: Um And so the system that they set up works

865
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: really well when war means you have to like walk

866
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: two days to like funk with this town across like

867
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: the river from you. Um. But when you're going to

868
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: war for twenty years and your army is all of

869
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: the guys who make your food, then it becomes a problem, right,

870
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: are you seeing like the flaw and the Roman social

871
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: system also, it's it's like I mean and this I

872
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: guess is the thing that's like distressing is like you

873
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: would hope what this would do is lead towards like

874
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: more measured wars and like you know, no, no, it's

875
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: simply the opposite, is we will I mean your well,

876
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: we're seeing it obviously in our time also, I was like,

877
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: we will simply let society crumble rather than and that's

878
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: what happens because here's the thing. If you were to

879
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: make have less wars, well, the only ways that the

880
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: nobility can make money is war or taking a bunch

881
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: of farming land, right, because they're not allowed to have businesses,

882
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: they're not allowed to be merchants. Uh. And if they

883
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: don't get to have more wars and massacre more generations

884
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: of Roman boys, then the merchants who aren't nobles will

885
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: have more money than them and nicer houses. Do you

886
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: see why this is a problem, right? I know it's

887
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: so just like but like instead of being like the

888
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: custom is weird, and we could just diversify our ruling

889
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: classes economy look at the same point. Nope, I'm the farmers.

890
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm all for restricting our ruling classes economic sources of income.

891
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: It is interesting that if you look at the two

892
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: longest lived republics in history, which is the Roman Republic

893
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: and now US, and both of them, you have this group,

894
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: this hereditary nobility, who are like, well, if we're going

895
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 1: to stay rich, we're gonna have to kill the middle class.

896
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to We're gonna have to get rid

897
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: of those people. Um. So yeah, you this is you

898
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: start to get these serious problems where like these farmers

899
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: soldiers are spending like five years at a time out

900
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: on campaigns, and like fucking Africa or Spain which is

901
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: quite a distance from Italy when you have to walk

902
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: it right, like they are far as funk away and

903
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people listening probably are not farmers. I'll

904
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: let you in on a secret about farming. If you

905
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: don't do anything to your farm for five years, it

906
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: is no longer a farm. It's it's just the woods

907
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: like um, and that's that that that causes an issue.

908
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: These soldiers are spending like half a decade at a time,

909
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: you know, in addition to like whatever injuries and trauma

910
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: they suffer, they come home and their farms are ruined

911
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: and they can't afford to like put them back into shape.

912
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: So again, and as you noted a reasonable country might

913
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: go like, well, clearly, we need farmers and we need

914
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: people to become soldiers, so it's in our best interest

915
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: to like figure out a way to deal with this

916
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: um that is not and this is a volunteer army.

917
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: It wasn't right. Yeah, well, they do have conscriptions, like

918
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: especially during emergencies, they have conscriptions and stuff. So it's

919
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: more like it's kind of like a draft um a

920
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: lot of the time with these wars. So yeah, it's

921
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: generally sort of a you get called up, your number

922
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: gets called up effectively, and like it's time for you

923
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: to go serve. They do have a lot of like

924
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: there are volunteer anyway. Whatever. It's a whole thing that

925
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: we don't have the time to get into that today,

926
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: but it's worth noting that, like the money that they

927
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: are making by conquering everything around Rome is plenty of

928
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: money to take care of these farmers. And I want

929
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: to quote now from a Marxist account of Roman history

930
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: written by Alan Woods. Quote, after the Second Punic War

931
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: ended in two o two b c. The economy of

932
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: Italy and dured a massive up people. The legions that

933
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: conquered Spain Greece and North Africa returned home with riches

934
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: on an unprecedented scale. A proconsul that's like the mix

935
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: between the president and a general returned from campaign in

936
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: the East bearing a hundred and thirty seven thousand pounds

937
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: of raw silver, six hundred thousand silver pieces and a

938
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: hundred and forty thousand gold pieces. So like the nobles

939
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: are getting fucking rich in all of this money stays

940
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: in the hands of these the patricians and this new

941
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: class of people called the equities, who are like rich businessmen, right,

942
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: because the trade is a lot. The more you conquer,

943
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 1: the better trade gets for you if you're a fucking

944
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: Roman businessman, So they're making fucking bank um. Now, all

945
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: of the land that the Roman army captures during this

946
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: conquest of Italy they go over become state owned land,

947
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: which seems fair right. They call it the the ager

948
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: publicists popular Romani, which means the public land of the

949
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: Roman people. And over time the Senate votes to allow

950
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: people to own parcels of this public land and perpetuity

951
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: as long as they work it right. So that's how initially,

952
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: like soldiers get rewarded as you get some of this

953
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: public land and you can start a farm on it

954
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: and that will allow you to have like a degree

955
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: of economic independence. Um. But I'm gonna quote here from

956
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: a write up in the Anthropology Review. Quote the problem

957
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: was that if the land was left uncultivated, it could

958
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: be taken over by someone who could work it. So

959
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: soldiers who were out of the country fighting for the

960
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: glory of Rome came back to find themselves dispossessed. Vast

961
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: stretches of land were taken over by rich and powerful

962
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: Romans who used slaves who were not called for military service,

963
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: and thus we're always present to plow the fields and

964
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: tend to the crops and livestock. This meant that peasants

965
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: and returning soldiers had not only lost their land, but

966
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: also the possibility of finding decently paid work with which

967
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: to support their family, because it was impossible to compete

968
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: with slaves who had to work for free. So that's

969
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: that's a bad way to have the situation work, right,

970
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: So just like it is, Yeah, it's I guess it's

971
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: like like all things that's just cobbled together from like

972
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: tradition and like is what happened last time? Just like

973
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: the fact that well, I want to be rich. I

974
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: want to be rich. Nothing nothing really matters more to

975
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: me than personally being richer. So let's let's do whatever

976
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: gets me the most money in the short term. And

977
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: I will never back down. This system can't change because

978
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: it's absolutely can work for us. And again, people at

979
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: the time noted note that this is like bad. Like

980
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: there's like a decent number of people in the Roman

981
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: political structure who are like, hey, guys, this is gonna

982
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: be a problem as as as we have in the

983
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: United States who are consistently being like, this is not

984
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: a good way to do things, um, because they're noticing

985
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: that all of these formerly independent freemen, the veterans who

986
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: have like conquered the world for Rome, are winding up

987
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: as almost like homeless in the city of Rome itself,

988
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: Like they have no work, no way to make money,

989
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: and they just kind of swell the city because the

990
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 1: state will will give them food when they're in the city,

991
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: kind of like it's the only thing they can do

992
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: is kind of become clients to some fucking rich guy

993
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: or whatever, um, and you know, basically exist to provide

994
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: a vote for a rich man and live marginally on

995
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: the edges of society. Um so as you can imagine

996
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: the fact that like the only way for a lot

997
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: of these poor people to get any kind of support

998
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: at all is to like vote for whatever guy has

999
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: the most money and thus can give them food. It

1000
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: makes this political system twist even more in favor of

1001
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 1: the wealthy. Right, inequality becomes a serious problem in the

1002
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Roman Republic. Now again, a lot of people recognize this

1003
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: as an issue, and in his wonderful book The Storm

1004
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: Before the Storm, Mike Duncan writes quote as early as

1005
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: one nine, Kato the Elder warned his colleagues, we have

1006
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: crossed in degrease in Asia, places filled with all the

1007
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: allurements of vice, and we are handling the treasures of kings.

1008
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: I fear that these things will capture us rather than

1009
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: we them. Every few years, the Senate would attempt to

1010
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: rein in the ostentatious displays of wealth, but the resulting

1011
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: limitations inevitably went unheeded and unenforced. By little coincidence, the

1012
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: Roman people at the same moment both acquired a taste

1013
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: for vice and obtained a license for gratifying it. Yeah,

1014
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: it's that's that's the way it always goes, right, they're

1015
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: no different from us. Oh god, yeah, they just we

1016
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: just have phones. Yeah, and it's it's it's interesting Karl

1017
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: Marx when he writes Capital is specifically looking at this

1018
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: period in Roman history, he bases a lot of his

1019
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: conclusions off of like what the history that he's like

1020
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: reading about. Why, like what happens in the Roman Republic?

1021
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 1: And he writes in Capital, quote it requires but a

1022
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: slight acquaintance with the history of the Roman Republic to

1023
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: be aware that it's secret history is the history of

1024
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: its landed property, right that like and essentially what he's

1025
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: saying is that, like you have this vision of what

1026
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: the Roman Republic was that like dudes like our quote

1027
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: unquote founding fathers have where they're just like masturbating over

1028
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: these like austere figures, and then you have the reality,

1029
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: which is that, yeah, this venal corrupt land holding class

1030
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: is choking out the middle class and the poor in

1031
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: order to make their already vast fortunes even larger. Yeah,

1032
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: and destroying the entire state as they do it, because

1033
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: they care about nothing but increasing the amount of wealth

1034
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: that they have, like like parasites on every level. Yeah,

1035
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: it's good stuff, you know, who else is a parasite

1036
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: on every level. Andrew, I've got to find out the

1037
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: sponsors of this podcast absolutely blood sucking ticks, just just

1038
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: guzzling the life out of your your veins. So if

1039
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: he is that a good wittily dads that gonna make

1040
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: him happen, that's the only way you can lead into ads,

1041
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: my friend. Excellent, excellent, Oh we're back. So this all

1042
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: brings us to the story of a guy who, depending

1043
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: on who you ask, is either the first socialist in

1044
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: history or this sinister populist precursor to Donald Trump. You

1045
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: there are think pieces that will say both things. They're

1046
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: all pretty silly because he's his own person and this

1047
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 1: is a long time ago, so stop stop it. But

1048
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: this guy's name is Tiberius Sempronius gracchus Um, and he's

1049
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: born in either one sixty three or one sixty two

1050
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: b C. And he comes into into being as like

1051
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: the bluest blood motherfucker. It is possible to be his

1052
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: father had served as console, which is kind of like again,

1053
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: it's like a mix between president in general, like if

1054
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: the senators are also leading art right, Yeah, exactly, it

1055
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: should be the same job. Get you get like voted

1056
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: to get a military command effectively. Um so in his

1057
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: dad like celebrates two triumphs for military victories, is like

1058
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: a young man. His mother is like the daughter of

1059
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: this great Roman war hero. Um. Now, everybody's main source

1060
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: on Tiberius gracuss life is a guy named Plutarch, who

1061
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 1: is a Greek historian who writes about him like a

1062
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: hundred years after he died. And it's worth knowing what

1063
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: Plutarch says because Plutarch's working from like sources that were

1064
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: written by people at the time when Gracis was alive.

1065
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: But like most Roman history, we still you're still just

1066
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: like most of Plutarch's history is like, well a guy

1067
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: told me this, Like I heard this from like a

1068
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: dude who's like his grandpa was around, and like I

1069
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: heard this, I heard the I a lot of It's

1070
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: like I guess that's all history anyway, But yeah, like

1071
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: after this, after what happens with this guy happens is

1072
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: like brother writes a pamphlet that he hands out and

1073
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: like a lot of Plutarch is based on like what

1074
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: people remember from being in the pamphlet. But I don't

1075
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: think we have the pamphlet still so it's like it's

1076
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: like if somebody if lot's like if somebody wrote a

1077
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: history of the of the George Floyd protests based on

1078
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: like a conversation with someone who remembered some zines about

1079
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: them right where it's like, yeah, like you're you're you're

1080
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: probably not gonna get all of the facts, but yeah,

1081
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: history is fucking crazy. Yeah it's good stuff. There's a

1082
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: story that Plutarch tells that like when Tiberius's dad is

1083
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: a kid, he goes to a soothsayer, you know, basically

1084
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: a fucking you know, a fortune teller, and uh, she's

1085
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: like you're gonna have to either. Uh like, I'll just

1086
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: read the quote because it's kind of weird. We're told

1087
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: moreover that he once caught a pair of serpents on

1088
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: his bed, and that the soothsayers, after considering the prodigy,

1089
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: forbade him to kill both serpents, or to let both go,

1090
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: but to decide the fate of one or the other

1091
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: of them, declaring that also the male serpent, if killed,

1092
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: would bring death to Tiberius and the female to Cornelia.

1093
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: That's his wife. Uh So Tiberius, accordingly, who loved his

1094
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: wife and thought that she was still young and he

1095
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: was older, and it was more fitting that he should

1096
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: die killed the male serpent, but let the female go.

1097
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,919
Speaker 1: A short time afterwards, as the story goes, he died.

1098
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: So that's what happens with this guy's dad. Like his

1099
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: dad supposedly dies because he kills the snake that represents

1100
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: him to let his wife live. Um, he leaves her

1101
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: with twelve children, three of which survived to adulthoods just

1102
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: like what a bonker's day at the the fortune teller's dates.

1103
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: Check this out. I tell him if he kills them

1104
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: fails snake, he's gonna die. Yeah at all. I'm gonna

1105
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: tell him kill one snake only Yeah, only one snake,

1106
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: let the other go. They had to just be I

1107
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: assume the fortune teller colleagues are just all, you know,

1108
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: fucking with you. Oh yeah, I mean they're fucking highest ship.

1109
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: They are unbearably lit. So Cornelia takes charge of the

1110
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: children in the estate. Uh she you know, she's good

1111
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: enough at being a mom that like a solid of

1112
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: her children lived to adulthood. Um. And two of those

1113
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: kids are the brothers Tiberius and Gaius Gracus. Now both

1114
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: of them are like a fancy boys. They hold a

1115
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: bunch of public offices that young patrician kids are expected

1116
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: to hold, uh as they climb up the political ladder. UM.

1117
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: At age seventeen, Tiberius goes to Africa to fight, you know,

1118
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: in the last big war against Carthage, and he's supposed

1119
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: to be the first man over the walls of Carthage

1120
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: during that final siege. Um. After that he goes to

1121
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: another war. So by the time you know he comes

1122
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: around in you know the one hundreds, like like ish BC,

1123
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: Rome is kind of locked into this Afghanistan style situation

1124
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: in Spain where they have conquered Spain, but like it's

1125
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 1: kind of hard to hold onto Spain. Like if you're anyone,

1126
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: there's a reason why Spain has mostly belonged to Spain

1127
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: throughout history. Um, it's not all that it's not always

1128
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: all that easy for Spain to be in charge of Spain. Um.

1129
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: So they're fighting this like endless series of like brush

1130
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: fire rebellions against and it is it's like Afghanistan that

1131
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: you've got like this this Roman military that's very organized

1132
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: and fairly modern and like it's it's command structure, and

1133
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: then there's these guys who are just like throwing rocks

1134
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: at them from the bushes and then running away. Um.

1135
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: And it works pretty well for the fucking Spanish. So

1136
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: Tiberius Gracis goes to go fight in northern Spain against

1137
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: these the city called Normentia um. And the war does

1138
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: not go very well, and the guy who's in charge

1139
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: of the Roman army gets his ass kicked, and so

1140
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: they have to negotiate a surrender. Um. Now the new

1141
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: maintains new Tiberius because his dad had beaten them in

1142
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 1: a war like twenty years ago, and he'd been cool

1143
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: about it, right, Like he hadn't been a dick about

1144
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: beating them in a war. So they were like, well,

1145
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: we'll let we'll talk with this guy. Will negotiate with

1146
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: this guy, because if he makes a peace treaty with us,

1147
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: we feel like Rome will will stick to it. So

1148
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: Tiberius works out a truce and a peace treaty and

1149
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: he saves this Roman army. But when they get back

1150
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: to Rome, all of these politicians, um, who had not

1151
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: left the city and who wanted the war to keep

1152
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: going because there was money in Spain, but didn't actually

1153
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: want to figure out how to fight it or like

1154
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: how dare you pull out of Spain with this army? Like,

1155
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: how how dare you? It's a little bit familiar to

1156
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: some things that have happened. It's like this bad situation

1157
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: and the guys back home had like didn't have any

1158
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: idea how to deal with it better than Tiberius did.

1159
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: But they're still angry about it, because that's what you

1160
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: do in politics. Probably, well, it's tell me more honest

1161
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: to just have the military industrial complex openly advocating like

1162
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: we need this war for money to continue, we need

1163
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: this war for money to continue, and for pride um,

1164
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: how fucking dare you? Uh So, Tiberius he takes a

1165
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: beating from these guys, but they can't punish him because

1166
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: he did just save the entire army's life and that

1167
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: kind of makes you popular in a way that's dangerous

1168
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: to funk with too much. But they do his commanding

1169
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: officer who had lost the war, They like strip him

1170
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: naked and chain him up and send him back to

1171
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: the enemy and are like, you guys can have him,

1172
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: like we don't want this guy anymore, like do whatever

1173
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: you want to him, which again, if we've done that

1174
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: with David Petre s would have I think been cool.

1175
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: I think that's what we should have done with David.

1176
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: A few more conuences for some of the people's fucking

1177
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: strip Dick Cheney naked and just air drop him into

1178
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: Bosra like like let and whatever happens happens. Right, we're

1179
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: not saying what the penalty should be. It's up to

1180
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: them to figure it out. Um. So the people vote

1181
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: to clear Tiberius of all charges, YadA YadA. Things go

1182
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: pretty good for him. Um. And and this is like

1183
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: what you might call a pretty decent start in Roman

1184
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: public life. Um. And as he's you know, there's a

1185
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: story that later gets told that like while he's kind

1186
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: of going back and forth between Spain and Rome, he's

1187
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: like walking around the countryside and he notices quote um

1188
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: or he notices basically that like there's nobody here. There's

1189
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: no Romans here. It's all slaves. All of these farms

1190
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: are worked by slaves. Um. All of the actual free

1191
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: people are like desperately poor because they've all lost their lands.

1192
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: They're just like huddled in these shanties at the edge

1193
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: of town. Um And like, oh wow, it kind of

1194
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: seems like we've done a terrible thing. And destroyed the

1195
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: class of people who have made like our success possible.

1196
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: This is probably a problem, right, So again basic observation. Um.

1197
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: So he decides to set up this policy to reform

1198
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: the public lands of Rome, to make it impossible for

1199
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: individual rich guys to buy a huge tracts of land,

1200
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: and to guarantee that small, freeholding farmers will continue to

1201
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: be the core of Roman society. Now, the way the

1202
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: popular story gets told, it's just Tiberius who like sees

1203
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: these poor farmers who are dispossessed and has this idea

1204
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: to fix everything. That's not really true. The reality is

1205
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: that this block of senators had been working for years

1206
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to reform the land system

1207
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: to fix this problem, and Tiberius is just kind of

1208
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: like he's young and he's popular, and these senators are like,

1209
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: you're the guy to be like the fucking frontman, right,

1210
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: which I guess is how a lot of big political

1211
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 1: form has to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's again

1212
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: a fairly modern seeming story. So they come up with

1213
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: this plan where they're going to limit the amount of

1214
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: public land that any individual can have to three hundred

1215
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: and thirty acres um. Now, this is like too harsh

1216
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: for the rich people, and so they start howling. Um,

1217
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: so they kind of like alter it in order to

1218
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: allow like an additional like I don't know, a hundred

1219
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 1: or so acres or a couple of hundred acres if

1220
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 1: you like already hold the legs they put in like

1221
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: some again, they immediately are like, all right, we'll look

1222
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: like we'll work. We like, we understand like the rich people,

1223
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: and you already have all this land, so we'll let

1224
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: you have more than we think that you should should

1225
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 1: be having, just to try to be friendly. Now, think

1226
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: about modern politics. When you offer to let rich conservatives

1227
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 1: like to compromise with them, do they a compromise or

1228
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: be go ape ship and declare war on you? Yeah, exactly, Yeah,

1229
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: it's like exactly so no, we like the lesson that

1230
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: we I guess we'll never learn from, uh is like

1231
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: don't negotiate with conservative terrorists. No, no, exactly, do not

1232
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: do not talk with these guys. They're not you can't

1233
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: they're not trustworthy. Yeah. Um, so you know, they they

1234
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: start Tiberius Gratis and these other senators and stuff, start

1235
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: putting together this legislation that they're going to introduce at

1236
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: the forum. And while they're doing all of this, this

1237
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: horrible war in Spain is raging on because the Senates

1238
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: rejected the peace deal that Tiberius cooked up, which means

1239
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: they have to raise another army and send it to Spain.

1240
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 1: But at this point they're kind of having trouble finding soldiers,

1241
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: right because nobody has enough money to like buy weapons,

1242
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: and like, it doesn't matter even if you can script people,

1243
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: they don't have the ability to like arm themselves. Um.

1244
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: And so there's this rich politician who's very much against

1245
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,919
Speaker 1: land reform, Skipio Aemilianus, who figures out how to fix

1246
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: this problem, and it's by using his vast personal wealth

1247
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: to recruit and arm an army of his own. This

1248
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: is the first time this happens in Roman history where

1249
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: just a rich guy buys an army and takes it

1250
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: to war. Um. This will not be the last time

1251
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: this happens, and it will prove to be a serious problem.

1252
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: He's kind of like, he's kind of like the Roman

1253
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: Eric prince where he's like, well, what do I just

1254
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: buy an army? Why don't we just do it that way?

1255
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: And then I can take minerals and ship you know, um. So,

1256
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: this guy Amilianis is again super against the land reform bill,

1257
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: and he's one of the big people organizing against Tiberius

1258
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 1: and his block. But once he leaves the city to

1259
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: go funk with Spain, he can't like do anything politically,

1260
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: Like there's no sending messages back effectively. So once he

1261
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: leaves the city with this army he's bought, Tiberius and

1262
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: his rivals take this law that they've built and they

1263
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: put it on the docket and they like which literally

1264
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 1: means that it go to the middle of the city

1265
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 1: and they're like, hey, guys, we got a fucking law

1266
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: to vote on. Everybody show up and let's vote our

1267
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 1: asses off around gather around motherfucker's um. Now, since most

1268
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: of the Senate is against land reform, Tiberius and his

1269
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 1: allies decided to present the bill directly to the Assembly

1270
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 1: to the voters without letting the Senate debate it. Now,

1271
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 1: this was not illegal. You did not have to present

1272
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: a law to the Senate first and let them debate it.

1273
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 1: But the most majoram this like unwritten set of agreement,

1274
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 1: says that you don't propose a law to the public

1275
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: without letting the Senate debate it. Right, So this is

1276
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: the first big break with like political tradition and decorum,

1277
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: and it's from Tiberius a side. They're like, well, now

1278
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: where fun the Senate, Like, we're just gonna take this

1279
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: one straight to the people. Um. So the rich people

1280
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 1: are like, okay, well, I guess fuck all of the

1281
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: things that we used to do like now now now

1282
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 1: there's no rules, right, so so we're just gonna fucking

1283
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: do it. Um, you're went, you went nuclear, and yeah,

1284
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: now we're going to do that too, right, And this

1285
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 1: is he does go nuclear because when Tiberius light goes

1286
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: up and he's like, hey, guys, I want to take

1287
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: all of this land that only the rich people have,

1288
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be all of our land, and give

1289
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: it to all of you. And this makes people very excited, right.

1290
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 1: It's it's such a big deal that like because basically

1291
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: he gets up and he announces this and says in

1292
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks, we're gonna have a vote

1293
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: on it. And so all of these poor citizens start

1294
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 1: flooding out of the city and like finding their relatives

1295
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 1: who are like living on the outskirts of town or

1296
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: in other towns and bringing them in. And so suddenly

1297
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of people start heading into Room Rome,

1298
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,879
Speaker 1: including Italians, people who are not Roman citizens but agree

1299
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 1: with this like land reform bill because fuck the rich

1300
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: people in Rome, UM who like show up and like

1301
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 1: are protesting. Basically, they're showing placards, they're like announcing their

1302
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 1: support for this thing. Obviously, Rome does not have mass

1303
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: media the way we have it, but they do have

1304
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: this forum, which is like Times Square mixed with c

1305
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 1: Span and also a nineties era mall right, it's this

1306
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: like big stage with shops around it, and it's not

1307
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: it's not even that big a stage. And if you're

1308
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:51,720
Speaker 1: doing politics, you stand up there and you talk to

1309
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: people about like what you're trying to get them to do. UM.

1310
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 1: So every day Tiberius is up there while they're waiting

1311
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: for because they're like saying, we're gonna have the vote

1312
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 1: in you know, excenent of days, right, So, and that's

1313
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: to give everyone time to get into the city because

1314
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: you have to physically be there to vote. So while

1315
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: all he's waiting for everyone to get in town, he's

1316
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: like speaking every day. And I'm gonna quote again from

1317
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 1: Plutarch here about like that's describing one of his speeches.

1318
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: The wild beasts that roam over Italy, he would say,

1319
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 1: have every one of them a cave or a layer

1320
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: to lurkin. But the men who fight and die for

1321
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 1: Italy enjoy the common air and light, indeed, but nothing else.

1322
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: Houseless and homeless, they wander about with their wives and children.

1323
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: It is with lying lips that their imperators exhort the

1324
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: soldiers in their battles to defend some pokers and shrines

1325
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: from the enemy. For not a man of them has

1326
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: an hereditary altar, not one of these many Romans an

1327
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 1: ancestral tomb. But they fight and die to support others

1328
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,799
Speaker 1: in wealth and luxury. And though they are styled masters

1329
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 1: of the world, they have not a single clot of

1330
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 1: earth that is their own. Pretty good speech, Yeah, it's

1331
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: pretty speech. You put on you put on your speech

1332
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 1: voice hard I was. I might have been doing a

1333
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: little bit of Dan Carlin there. Um. So this goes

1334
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: really well, And this is where the Trump comparisons get in, right.

1335
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: He is the first like populist politician in Roman history.

1336
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: He's tapping into decades of anger and resentment among the

1337
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,719
Speaker 1: lower classes. He's promising to take the fight to the elite,

1338
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: which he is clearly a member of, right on their behalf. Um,

1339
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 1: So you could you can make some Trump comparisons, but

1340
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 1: you can also make direct comparisons to Lennon and Mao. Right.

1341
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: Lennon and maw are both upper class, rich people who

1342
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: become these socialist fire brands and ignite uprising again against

1343
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: an entrenched in decade and elite. Right, you can see

1344
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 1: comparisons to all these guys, right, you can see him

1345
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,759
Speaker 1: as like this first uh like um, like a grarian

1346
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 1: populist sort of Trumpian figure. Or he could be like, well,

1347
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,640
Speaker 1: he's the first socialist, you know, I mean, I I

1348
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:55,440
Speaker 1: think I think though it's the like like contemporary illusion

1349
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: of the word populist with just like a small band

1350
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 1: of raceists. Yes, so that's where Trump fits in everyone

1351
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: the other ones are more truly populist. Yeah, because he's

1352
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: this is a real problem he's trying to solve. Is

1353
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: supposed to like howling about again like and like calling

1354
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 1: calling Trump like a populist is such like a New

1355
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: York Times thing, because they the only population that matters

1356
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: to them is like racists in Ohio. Well, and also like, yeah,

1357
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: it is weird to call him a populist because he's

1358
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 1: never literally not a popular vote, Like it's literally not

1359
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: most people. Um, whereas most people are really on board

1360
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 1: with what Tiberians is saying because most people are fucking

1361
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 1: poor as shit, right, and they're like, yeah, this sounds great.

1362
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 1: So the rich people they know they have to be

1363
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 1: careful because he has this huge mob of people who

1364
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: are like on his side, and it would be really

1365
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 1: easy for them to just murder anybody who who tries

1366
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: to stop him from passing this law. So they bribe

1367
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: a tribune and tribunes are like, it's this political office

1368
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 1: that the main thing the tribunes can do is they

1369
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: can veto any law that anyone may right. The tribunes,

1370
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 1: their primary power is that they can just say no

1371
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: and nothing can be done. Right. It's just like there's

1372
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: two guys who get that job, and that's like a

1373
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 1: thing that they can do. Yeah, it is a little

1374
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: bit supreme courty, although it's more of a it's more

1375
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 1: of a populist position because one of the tribunes, the

1376
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: tribune of the police, can only be a poor person, right,

1377
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: or if they're not actually poor people, but likely be

1378
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: a non noble um. So it's there is like there

1379
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: is a cool thing in this which is that like, well,

1380
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 1: the poor people should have a representative who can just

1381
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,560
Speaker 1: say no to everybody, right, But in this case, the

1382
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: tribune gets bribed, um, and so he says, hey, you

1383
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: can't vote on this bill, period. So now Tiberius has

1384
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: to take action. So Tiberius is like, because Tiberius is

1385
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: also a tribune, right, so you've got one tribune who's like,

1386
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to let anyone vote on this fucking

1387
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 1: land reform bills. So Tiberius is like, all right, well

1388
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: then I won't let anyone vote on fucking anything, and

1389
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: I won't let anyone spend the state's money. And he

1390
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: locks the treasury, like he physically locks the Roman treasury

1391
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:05,760
Speaker 1: and says, like, the government just he does a government shutdown, right,

1392
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: Like that's what happens, Like no one can do anything now. Um.

1393
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:12,640
Speaker 1: So while all this is happening, this is becoming like

1394
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 1: a show, so like people are flooding into the forum

1395
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 1: to watch. Most a lot of the people who are

1396
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 1: like in the streets arguing and debating and like watching

1397
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: this political drama unfold are like veterans. They're like former

1398
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,560
Speaker 1: farmers and sons of farmers and all this ship, and

1399
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: they start talking about violence, and Tiberia starts stoking this

1400
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: talk of violence by telling everyone. He gets up on

1401
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: stage and he says, hey, I have evidence that my

1402
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 1: enemies are planning to assassinate me. And he starts carrying

1403
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 1: a dagger under his cloak, which is technically illegal, but

1404
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:41,800
Speaker 1: he'll like pull it out during speeches and be like

1405
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: so serious that I gotta keep a knife on me,

1406
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta be ready to cut a bit.

1407
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 1: He's exactly like fifty cent um. So the Tribune, who

1408
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: had been bribed this guy Octavia's, decides at this point

1409
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 1: to let the people vote about He's not gonna let

1410
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 1: them vote on the land bill, but will be like,

1411
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 1: all right, look, if you guys are so unhappy with

1412
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, you can vote about whether or not

1413
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 1: to strip me of like my office. Um so, this

1414
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 1: had never happened before, and this starts to scare Tiberius

1415
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 1: because he's like, ship, we're now kind of like way

1416
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 1: off the beaten path of like what politics is supposed

1417
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 1: to be. And I'm kind of worried that the wheels

1418
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 1: that there's no breaks on this thing, um, because it

1419
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: gets scary to everyone when all of the social and

1420
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 1: political mores stop start crumbling at once. Um. But this

1421
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 1: vote happens, Octavius gets stripped out of his office. He

1422
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 1: only survives the mob like murdering him because his friends

1423
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 1: like push their way through a crowd to get him away. Um.

1424
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 1: And Tiberius gets to have a vote on his law

1425
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 1: and it passes resoundingly passes. Now, when the law passes,

1426
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: they have to set up a state commission to like

1427
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: redistribute this public land. And so his enemies, these rich people,

1428
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 1: are like, well, we won't vote to actually pay any

1429
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: funds for the commission to redistribute public lands, so you

1430
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: can't afford to do anything with this new law. And

1431
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 1: right as this happens is they're like fuck you. Type Arius,

1432
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: A rich king dies. And this king, for completely separate reasons,

1433
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 1: wants to funk over his dumbship kids, so he leaves

1434
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 1: all of his money to the Roman people. Right, So

1435
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: Tiberius is like, all right, you're not gonna fund me. Well,

1436
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: this guy left his money to the Roman people, so

1437
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna use his money to fund this Land

1438
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 1: Reform Commission. And this is a problem for a bunch

1439
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 1: of reasons, but basically, the rich people are number one

1440
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 1: angry that they're not going to get that gold. And

1441
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,640
Speaker 1: number two, they're like, well, you're not supposed to have

1442
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: the power to decide how state money gets spent. So

1443
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 1: now you've number one year deciding what what can get

1444
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: voted on. You've stripped this other tribune of his power.

1445
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 1: You're now like exercising power of the purse and like

1446
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,759
Speaker 1: what the state can be spent on. Like you're getting

1447
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 1: kind of close to becoming a king, right, which is

1448
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: not entirely like wrong. Like they're like, wow, this, you

1449
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 1: are exercising more power than a single person is supposed

1450
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 1: to have in our system. So they get really they

1451
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: decide like some ship needs to get done. And I'm

1452
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 1: gonna quote from Anthropology Review here. At the time, tribunes

1453
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,680
Speaker 1: were considered inviolable, so Siberius was encouraged to run for

1454
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 1: a third term to retain the protection that the position bestowed.

1455
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: To bolster his popularity with the citizens and increase his

1456
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 1: chances of being elected, he proposed several new populist measures

1457
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: that further enraged his enemies. These included proposals to reduce

1458
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 1: the mandatory term of military service as well has changed

1459
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 1: the balance of power in the Senate by increasing the

1460
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: number of equities to match that of the senators. Uh

1461
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 1: the night before the vote, Tiberius implored the citizens to

1462
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 1: vote for him because he feared for his life and

1463
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: the life of his family. His plea was so compelling

1464
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: that many people guarded his house all night to make

1465
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 1: sure he was safe. The next day, Tiberius went to

1466
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,720
Speaker 1: the capital, where he was surrounded by a crowd of

1467
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 1: people who wanted to protect him. Plutarch says that one

1468
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 1: of the senators, Flavius Flaccus, warned Tiberius that the wealthy

1469
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 1: Romans had resolved to assassinate him. Tiberius pointed at his

1470
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 1: head to indicate to his supporters that his life was

1471
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 1: in danger. This was interpreted by the spy sent from

1472
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: the Senate as a request for a crown, a claim

1473
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: they raced to relate to the senators, who immediately sent

1474
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 1: a mob of armed slaves and supporters to attack Tiberius

1475
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 1: and his followers. So what follows is a fucking massacre. Um.

1476
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: You have this group of political this political group who

1477
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 1: have come together to like reform the political system of

1478
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:13,760
Speaker 1: the entire government in order to make it fairer for

1479
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 1: poor people and the rich. Send an army into the

1480
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 1: city of slaves primarily and massacre them. They killed the

1481
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: ship out of Tiberius and like two or three hundred

1482
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:27,679
Speaker 1: of his followers. Like it's just this bloody nightmare. They're

1483
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: like throwing people's corpses in the river, like all sorts

1484
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: of fucked up ship. Um. Now, after they massacre all

1485
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 1: these people, they pass most of the reforms that he

1486
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 1: had suggested, which is another thing that happens repeatedly in

1487
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: Roman history, Like they'll have like they'll have a civil war,

1488
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 1: and they'll massacre the other side, and then they'll do

1489
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: what they asked for anyway, because it's a good idea. Um.

1490
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:54,559
Speaker 1: So a lot of his reforms happen. But by killing

1491
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 1: him and all of his followers in the middle of town,

1492
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: a seal has been broken, right, and the republic is

1493
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 1: never the same after this. I'm gonna quote from a

1494
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,560
Speaker 1: write up in the New York Times here. Over the

1495
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 1: next years, it quickly became normal for populist politicians to

1496
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 1: set aside longstanding norms to accomplish their goals, for military

1497
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,759
Speaker 1: commanders to bind the Senate to their will by threatening

1498
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: to occupy Rome, and for rival generals to wage war

1499
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: on one another. Within a generation of the first political

1500
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: assassination in Rome, politicians had begun to arm their supporters

1501
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 1: and use the threat of violence to influence the votes

1502
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: of assemblies and the election of magistrates. Within two generations,

1503
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: Rome fell into civil war. So that's good, and yeah,

1504
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: that's I mean, don't especially want to think about I

1505
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 1: guess that. I mean that is also just the American

1506
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 1: thing of like, look, if not that the artificial like

1507
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 1: armed services are not just basically malicious for the powerful,

1508
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 1: but codifying it that way, it feels like, hey, you

1509
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: you learned where this is going because in part two.

1510
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 1: Part one is about how the Romans, how Roman politics

1511
01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: turned from this like cordial thing where violence was not

1512
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 1: common too, we will murder anybody who tries to funk

1513
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 1: with the money, um and part two is about how

1514
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 1: they create the FBI. Yeah, cat fucking wait, grim as

1515
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:25,880
Speaker 1: fucking usual things. Andrew, you got anything to plug before

1516
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:30,760
Speaker 1: we roll out of here? Yes? Actually, this Saturday, um

1517
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:35,679
Speaker 1: my podcast yoss Racist is doing a show in Austin, Texas.

1518
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: So if you're in Austin, please come out. Um, but yeah,

1519
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: find me RSS racist. I'm Andrew t Uh. Well, you

1520
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: know it's funny because because you your podcast is eos

1521
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:48,719
Speaker 1: this racist. But we're talking about the Romans, and racism

1522
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,800
Speaker 1: didn't exist yet. They didn't have they did like they

1523
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 1: literally hadn't figured out how to be racist yet. That

1524
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 1: hadn't been invented because we also had not invented British people, right,

1525
01:20:58,400 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 1: and they also had a lot of a lot of

1526
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 1: other ship to fight about. Apparently they shared it. They

1527
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 1: shared it. Um yeah, but but but not racist woke kings,

1528
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:15,480
Speaker 1: the Roman woke woke Uh I here no woke proconsoles.

1529
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, Well until next time up yours

1530
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 1: Woke Moralists Behind the Bastards is a production of cool

1531
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:30,760
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1532
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com, or check us out

1533
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1534
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.