1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,519 Speaker 1: Return now to the US's role in the Israel Gaza conflict, 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: and bring in Michael Orn, former Israeli Ambassador to the US. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Mister ambassador, we appreciate your joining us at what I 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: know is a late hour in Tel Aviv. But President 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Biden is just now on his way home, and i'd 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: like you to listen to part of the message that 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: he delivered in Tel Aviv and get your reaction here. 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: He is. 9 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 2: Vast majority of Palestins are not Hamas. Hamas does not 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: represent the Palestinian people. Hamas uses innocence, innocent families in 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: Gaza as human shields, putting their command centers, their weapons, 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: their communications, tonels in residential areas. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: Mister ambassador. 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: President Biden also referred to some of the mistakes that 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: were made by the US in the wake of nine 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: to eleven as part of his message of restraint, while 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: also allowing for Israel to seek justice. How did that 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: message land in Tel Aviv? 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: Oh? 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 4: I think people may understood that as I understood that. 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 4: It was a reference not to get involved in sort 22 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 4: of a quagmire in Gaza. If you're going to go 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 4: in there and you're going to uproot Hamas, then get 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 4: it done, and get the hell out of there. 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 3: And it had a particular residence. 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 4: For me, Joe, because in two thousand and three I 27 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 4: was called to testify in front of Congress about the 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 4: impending Iraq war. 29 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 3: I was merely in Storian back. 30 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 4: Then, and I testified that it would be a big 31 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 4: mistake to get involved in state making in Iraq. I 32 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 4: go in, kill Stan Hussein, and get out. But the 33 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 4: British had lost their stumbing for it, and the French 34 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 4: had lost their stomach for it, and withdrawn, and I 35 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 4: particted the United States would lose his stomach for it too, 36 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 4: and also withdraw, and the Iranian border would moved about 37 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 4: eight hundred miles westward toward US. And I think I'mnfortunately 38 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 4: I was right by that, so I understood exactly what 39 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 4: the President was saying. As for his first remark about 40 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 4: the majority of Palace City is not being moss drawing 41 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 4: in distinction, you know, I understand why he has to 42 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 4: say that. Unfortunately, it's not entirely true. The Palestinians in 43 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 4: the in Gaza overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, supported Habas, celebrated 44 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 4: Haas celebrated. 45 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: When Hamas butchered guards. 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 4: Citizens and in the jude and Samario, the West Bank 47 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 4: Palasing Authority in the Mahamoudabas, he's in the eighteenth year 48 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: of his four year term and he won't stand for 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 4: reelection because he that knows that Hamas would overwhelmingly win 50 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 4: there too. One of our big, big problems, maybe our 51 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 4: biggest problems with Pala cities that the majority of them 52 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 4: support AMAS. And you can't ignore that fact. No, it's true, 53 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 4: not all of them are Hamas, but an awful lot 54 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 4: of them are. 55 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 5: Okay, But ambassador, is support for Hamas enough to justify 56 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 5: the potential massive loss of life we could see for 57 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 5: Palestine Palestinian civilians. How should that be balanced here? 58 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: All we're trying to do is get the Palisadian civilians 59 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: to move out of the battleground. That is an attempt 60 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 4: to actually save palacity of lives. I understand it. It's 61 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 4: not pleasantness at all to be displaced and moved to 62 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 4: a different area, but the alternative be far worse. Hamas 63 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 4: uses its population as a humane seald AAMAS builds massive 64 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 4: labyrinths of tunnels under cities, under schools. It has its 65 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 4: headquarters under hospitals. That's where they have their arsenals in 66 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: moss as well. And the only way that Israel can 67 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: defend itself from further horrendous massacres of this stripe we 68 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: experienced on October seventh and eighth is to go in 69 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 4: there and uproot Hamas. And it's a fighting you know, 70 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 4: I'm an old I'm an old paratrooper. I know what 71 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 4: it is to be in a killing zone. But these 72 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 4: streets are a nightmare for any army. It's it's endless 73 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 4: booby traps and mines, and beneath it this warrant of tunnels, 74 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 4: and the only way to fight against it. The only 75 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 4: way to Uppercommas is to move that civilian population away, 76 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 4: otherwise they will be caught in crossfire, which is precisely 77 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 4: precisely what Amas wants. 78 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot there to consider, mister ambassador, But 79 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: the President was supposed to be honest. Way to Jordan 80 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: right now instead of heading back home to sleep in 81 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: his own bed tonight. And I wonder your thoughts on 82 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: this summit in Jordan, a summit of Arab nation leaders 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: being canceled, and what that means for geopolitics in that region. 84 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: On the eve of what appears to be a ground 85 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: invasion of Gaza, well. 86 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 4: Certainly unfortunate, and the summit would have been welcomed I 87 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 4: think by all Israelis and certainly by the leaders of Jordan, 88 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 4: Egypt and the palaest In authority. But there's the palest Indian, 89 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 4: there's the Arab street, there's public opinion which also tends 90 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 4: to be very favorable towards AMAS. 91 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: Leaders aren't but the people are. 92 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 4: And when it was abundantly clear that it was not 93 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 4: an Israeli airstrike that destroyed that hospital, at least the 94 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 4: Parking Model Hospital, killing so many civilians, a an errant 95 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 4: Palestinian Islamic Jihat missile that was fired at us and 96 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 4: sort of crash prematurely, the people in those streets are 97 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 4: unwilling to believe that, and they were demonstrating and rioting 98 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 4: and made such a summit untenable. That's unfortunate. I think 99 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: that in I said, is going to try to continue 100 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 4: to maintain close relations with its allies, to maintain our 101 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 4: relations Jesus relations with the abraham accre segatory countries that's 102 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 4: the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco, and to try to 103 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: ex once the small clear of this crisis to go 104 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 4: back and try to affect the rapt reschemump between Israel 105 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: and Saudi Arabia, which would be a real game changer 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 4: from the entire region. 107 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: Who said it's going to be easy. This is the 108 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: Middle East, folks aa easy. 109 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, and on that subject, there is another country 110 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 5: in the Middle East to ask you about. That would 111 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 5: be Iran. This is actually a subject that was approached 112 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 5: by Jack lou President Biden's nominee to be the US 113 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 5: ambassador to Israel. He had his confirmation hearing in the 114 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 5: Senate today and this is what he said about the 115 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 5: threat of Iran. If you could take a listen. 116 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 6: I want to be clear, Iran is a threat to 117 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 6: regional stability and to Israel's existence. If confirmed, I will 118 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 6: uphold President Biden's commitment to deny Iran a nuclear weapon 119 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 6: and warning to the region that anyone who's thinking of 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 6: taking advantage of the current crisis don't. 121 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 5: Mister ambassador, what is your read on how great the 122 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 5: risk is that this crisis is taken advantage of that 123 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 5: this expands beyond just Israel and Hamas. 124 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: I don't think it's a matter of expansion that Iran 125 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: was largely behind it. 126 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: Iran saw weakness in Israel, that Israel was divided internally 127 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 4: over political debates. I saw the United States it was 128 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 4: unwilling to project power, withdrawing from the world, he withdrawing 129 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 4: the Middle East. 130 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 3: It was afraid that that Saudi is real peace. 131 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: Not only would the Arionions facing a joint Saudi is 132 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 4: really strategic front. 133 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: I think that the Irionis were very much afraid of 134 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 3: Saudi nuclerization. 135 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 4: Question whether Saudi would get Saudi Arabia would get nuclear 136 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 4: power as a result of that peace agreement was also 137 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 4: very very frightening to the Iranians if they want to 138 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: be the other ones that have nuclear power in that 139 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: area of the Virgin Gulf. And so it didn't take 140 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 4: very much to encourage Hamas to launch this strike and 141 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 4: to probe the funding and the training and the know 142 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: how and the intelligence for it. 143 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,119 Speaker 3: We believe that house the Islamic Jihad. 144 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: Are we good with that narrative, mister ambassador, because we 145 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: hear this from a lot of folks on the program 146 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: that hey, look they've historically back Toomas. You don't have 147 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: to be a genius to know that. But is it 148 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: not incumbent upon Benjamin net and Yahoo and Joe Biden 149 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: to show evidence of that connection. 150 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: Maybe they don't want to, maybe it's from course sources 151 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 4: that they don't want to reveal. 152 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: But I'll give you some evidence. 153 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 4: We know that how US senior officials met with Iran 154 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: and senior officials about several weeks before that operation, before 155 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 4: the attack. 156 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: We know that every missile that's fired at US, and 157 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: by the way, I had about three or four fire 158 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: just outside. 159 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 4: Of my window not long ago, they are either engineered 160 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 4: by Iran or Exit manufacturing Balueline. 161 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: I don't know how much more evidence you need. 162 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 5: Well, of course, the administration maintains that there was no 163 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 5: direct evidence that Iron had direct knowledge of this particular attack, 164 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 5: And mister ambassador at Bloomberg would like to share with 165 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 5: you we hope you remain safe as you are witnessing 166 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 5: that scene there in Tel Aviv. On the subject of 167 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 5: the Biden administration, though, of course, they're not just dealing 168 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 5: with the question of Iran, they are also dealing with 169 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 5: the question of providing funding and aid to Israel. Our 170 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 5: understanding here at Bloomberg is that the President could be 171 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 5: asking Congress for in total one hundred billion dollars for aid, 172 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 5: not just to Israel, but Ukraine as well. What does 173 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 5: Israel need most right now? What should the US be giving? 174 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 4: I says can provide essential forms of ammunition and and 175 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 4: capabilities for issuel. If we have to fight on one flounder, 176 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 4: perhaps even two fronts in the South and in the North, 177 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 4: we will need resupply of ammunition. Now, the United States 178 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 4: is pre supply, pre positioned about two billion dollars worth 179 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 4: of military equipment and ammunition beneath the state of issue 180 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 4: of that ammunition was put there by George Bush at 181 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 4: the beginning of the century to serve American armed forces 182 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 4: in this region. 183 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: There for the most part, not here anymore. 184 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 4: But we have the ability to ask for the keys, 185 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 4: literally for the keys to those warehouses when we need them, 186 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 4: and to go in and take what we need. 187 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: We write it down, we pay it back later. 188 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 4: So what we need are certain types of ammunition, We 189 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 4: need certain capabilities, certainly in the intelligence field, and we 190 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 4: need what I call the diplomatic. 191 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: Ironbill, which is America's readiness. 192 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 4: To cast vetos in the Security Council as they did 193 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 4: today as the Russians, the Chinese will move to try 194 00:09:58,920 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 4: to condemn us. 195 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 5: All right, mister ambassador, thank you very much for joining 196 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 5: us so late in the evening or I guess early 197 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 5: morning from Tel Aviv. We really appreciate your time and 198 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 5: again stay safe. That is former Israeli Ambassador to the 199 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 5: US Michael Orn