WEBVTT - #485 Jason Flom with Lamont Hunter

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, it's Connor Hall, the producer for Wrongful Conviction. Today

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<v Speaker 1>we're sharing Lamont Hunter's story not because of a new

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<v Speaker 1>development in his case, but for how closely it resembles

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<v Speaker 1>that of Robert Robertson and how different the outcomes have

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<v Speaker 1>been so far. In both cases, there were unfounded accusations

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<v Speaker 1>of sexual assault that loomed large over their death penalty prosecutions,

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<v Speaker 1>while medical experts for the state touted tenets of the

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<v Speaker 1>now debunked hypothesis known as shaken baby syndrome. This hypothesis

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<v Speaker 1>was taken on faith by an establishment of science and

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<v Speaker 1>could only be tested by time, which eventually revealed a

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<v Speaker 1>flawed theory. The neurologist who developed it back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>seventy one, doctor Norman guth Kelch, before his death in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty sixteen, said quote, I am frankly quite disturbed that

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<v Speaker 1>what I intended as a friendly suggestion for avoiding injury

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<v Speaker 1>to children has become I'm an excuse for imprisoning innocent parents.

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<v Speaker 2>End quote.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet many prosecutors and lawmakers around the globe have not

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<v Speaker 1>found the same courage as they continue to fight to

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<v Speaker 1>maintain wrongful convictions as well as prosecute newly aggrieved in

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<v Speaker 1>innocent parents, and Robert Robertson will be the first of

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<v Speaker 1>them to be put to death if we do not

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<v Speaker 1>continue to fight those that value finality over humanity. Robert

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<v Speaker 1>was scheduled to be executed in the state of Texas

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<v Speaker 1>on October seventeen, twenty twenty four, but through an unprecedented

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<v Speaker 1>series of legal maneuvers, the Texas Supreme Court issued his stay.

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<v Speaker 1>A new death warrant will likely be sought as Robert

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<v Speaker 1>lives to fight another day. Governor's attorneys, general, lawmakers, prosecutors,

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<v Speaker 1>they have the power, but not a responsibility, to do

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<v Speaker 1>something about injustice. We saw that play out last month

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<v Speaker 1>with the execution of Marcella's Williams in Missouri. Innocence is

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<v Speaker 1>not enough to set you free. The Supreme Court decided

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<v Speaker 1>that back in nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 2>Three Herrera v. Collins.

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<v Speaker 1>That's your system to them, and it's why folks who

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<v Speaker 1>are in my opinion, in humane and Mortley bankrupt. They're

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<v Speaker 1>just carrying out the law. I mean, it's only as

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<v Speaker 1>a matter of what seems to be chance in both

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<v Speaker 1>cases that you know, I was lucky enough to meet

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<v Speaker 1>Lamont Hunter as a freeman on a boat in New Orleans,

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<v Speaker 1>while the image of Robert touching the plexiglasses Jason and

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<v Speaker 1>I walked away from the visiting area is going to

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<v Speaker 1>continue to haunt me, especially if the efforts to kill

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<v Speaker 1>this innocent man succeed.

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<v Speaker 3>In two thousand and six, Lamont Hunter lived with his

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<v Speaker 3>girlfriend los Milda, along with their blended family in Cincinnati, Ohio.

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<v Speaker 3>Leismilda's three year old son, Trustin, had been previously hospitalized

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<v Speaker 3>for what was believed to be injuries resulting from child abuse. However,

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<v Speaker 3>no charges ever materialized. Then, on January nineteenth, two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and six, Trustin was in Lamont's care when paramedics were

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<v Speaker 3>called to take Trustin again to the hospital, where he

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<v Speaker 3>passed away. Lamont told police that Trusten took a tumble

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<v Speaker 3>down the stairs, but the state's experts believed that the

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<v Speaker 3>medical evidence told a different story, that Trustin's injuries could

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<v Speaker 3>not have resulted from a fall down the stairs, but

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<v Speaker 3>rather from violent shaking coupled with forceful impact. In addition,

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<v Speaker 3>that the three year old boy may have been sexually assaulted.

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<v Speaker 3>With evidence like this, it didn't take long for a

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<v Speaker 3>three judge panel to sentence Lamont Hunter to death. But

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<v Speaker 3>this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful conviction has always given voice

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<v Speaker 3>to innocent people in prison, and now we're expanding that

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<v Speaker 3>voice to you. Call us at eight three three two

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<v Speaker 3>O seven four six sixty six and tell us how

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<v Speaker 3>these stories make you feel and what you've done to

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<v Speaker 3>help the cause, even if it's something as simple as

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<v Speaker 3>telling a friend or sharing on social media, and you

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<v Speaker 3>might just hear yourself in a future episode. Call us

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<v Speaker 3>A three three two O seven four six sixty six.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today we have a story

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<v Speaker 3>of a crime that never happened, that resulted in a

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<v Speaker 3>death sentence for a man who should have been given

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<v Speaker 3>time to grieve. Laman Hunter a sentenced to death in

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<v Speaker 3>the state of Ohio for a crime that never happened,

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<v Speaker 3>and here to help him tell his story. I'm going

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<v Speaker 3>to introduce I actually asked how she would like to

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<v Speaker 3>be introduced, and Laman jumped right in and said, just

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<v Speaker 3>call her the amazing Aaron Barnhardt. But for context, she

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<v Speaker 3>is Assistant Public Defender at the Southern Ohio Federal Public

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<v Speaker 3>Defender Capital Habeas Unit. So Aarin, thank you for being.

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<v Speaker 4>Here, Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>And here to tell his own story with this assist

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<v Speaker 3>from Aaron and myself is the man himself who survived

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<v Speaker 3>this incredible ordeal. Lamont Hunter La Mont. I'm so happy

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<v Speaker 3>you're here.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>It's kind of a miracle that you're here, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and Aaron, you are a big part of that miracle.

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<v Speaker 3>So let's go back to your upbringing. The place that

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<v Speaker 3>you were born and where you lived has a lot

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<v Speaker 3>to do with your wrongful conviction. But did you actually

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<v Speaker 3>grow up there in Hamilton County.

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<v Speaker 2>Ohio, Cincinnati. Yes, I did Hamilton County.

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<v Speaker 5>I was born in the late sixties, so I grew

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<v Speaker 5>up through the seventies and eighties and nineties. My mother,

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<v Speaker 5>my father, hit my heroes work their fingers to the

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<v Speaker 5>bone to provide a good life for me and my siblings.

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<v Speaker 2>My childhood was amazing.

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<v Speaker 5>Like I always say, I was fortunate to be born

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<v Speaker 5>in a family that I was born in school. I

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<v Speaker 5>mean cousins, aunts, uncles. We are all very close knit family,

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<v Speaker 5>you know.

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<v Speaker 3>I understand eventually you became a father as well.

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, I got four biological children and two children that

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<v Speaker 5>I raised, and I have an honorary daughter, Aisha.

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<v Speaker 3>What are the kids' names, Ashley.

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<v Speaker 5>Mariah, Lamont Junior, Valita, Eric, Aisha, and Trinity. I've been

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<v Speaker 5>instrumental in very hands on and raising all my children,

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<v Speaker 5>all six of them.

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<v Speaker 3>To support his family, Lamont worked as a roofer, but

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<v Speaker 3>also he had a side hustle sending drugs through Federal Express,

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<v Speaker 3>which landed him in federal prison. Now, drug trafficking is

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<v Speaker 3>in no way related to how Lamont ended up on

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<v Speaker 3>Ohio's death row, but his prior conviction comes up later

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<v Speaker 3>in the story. So after his stint in prison, he

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<v Speaker 3>went back to roofing and met a woman named los Milda,

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<v Speaker 3>and together they had Lamont's youngest child, Trinity. Louis Milda

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<v Speaker 3>also had three boys from a previous relationship, Tyree, Tyrell,

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<v Speaker 3>and Trustin.

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<v Speaker 4>So Lamont actually didn't spend much time.

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<v Speaker 6>With trust In.

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<v Speaker 4>The little boy who died in this case, Trustan was

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<v Speaker 4>Luzmilda's son, and because of complications with her health, he

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<v Speaker 4>was born. He was basically raised by other people family

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<v Speaker 4>friends and relatives.

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<v Speaker 3>Right Wilma Forte and Amber White.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, after she delivered Trusting she had kidney stones, so

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<v Speaker 5>she had immediately go back in for kidney surgery, and

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<v Speaker 5>she couldn't care for Trusting. So they were loving enough

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<v Speaker 5>to take Trusting And for some reason I don't agree

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<v Speaker 5>with luz Milde on this, she just chose to let

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<v Speaker 5>him stay there. That's where Trustin lived.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, Loismilda Lamont rarely took care of Trusting, and prior

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<v Speaker 3>to the two thousand and sixth incident that resulted in

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<v Speaker 3>Trustin's death, there had been some suspected abuse back in

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<v Speaker 3>two thousand and four.

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<v Speaker 4>In January of two thousand and four, Lamont had been

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<v Speaker 4>carrying trust In up a flight of stairs and tripped

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<v Speaker 4>and fell on trust In and ended up breaking his

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<v Speaker 4>leg bone his tibia. At the time, his two older

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<v Speaker 4>half siblings were there, saw what happened. It was obviously

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<v Speaker 4>an accident. No one even suspected it wasn't an accident.

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<v Speaker 4>He was treated and let go. Then in June of

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand and four, Trustin had sort of a constellation

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<v Speaker 4>of injuries, some swelling, scratches, rashes, some other abrasions like

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<v Speaker 4>by his lips and his ears. When Luizmilda goes to

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<v Speaker 4>change trust In's diaper, she sees that it's really raw

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<v Speaker 4>and red and irritated. Luzimlda wondered if his genital swelling

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<v Speaker 4>was a bug bite or diaper rash, so she takes

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<v Speaker 4>him to a local urgent care. When they see these conditions,

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<v Speaker 4>they end up sending him to the hospital and it's

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<v Speaker 4>treated as a case of abuse. Now, I don't think

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<v Speaker 4>we'll ever know what happened to Trustin. I think it's

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<v Speaker 4>probably a combination of things. We found in medical records

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<v Speaker 4>that Trustin had a lot of skin conditions ezema, other

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<v Speaker 4>sort of conditions where his hair was falling out, environmental

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<v Speaker 4>stressors and things like that, and then he was playing

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<v Speaker 4>with two older, rambunctious kids. And I think probably what

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<v Speaker 4>happened was there was some combination of maybe a little

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<v Speaker 4>rough housing, maybe some irritation that trust In himself could

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<v Speaker 4>have scratched or irritated that resulted in these conditions. No

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<v Speaker 4>matter what happened, everyone agrees Lamont wasn't involved, but these

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<v Speaker 4>circumstances were treated as abuse. And at the hospital when

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<v Speaker 4>they did a skeletal survey an X ray, they discovered

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<v Speaker 4>that Trusten had a number of older healing fractures in

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<v Speaker 4>his hands and feet. Now, Trustin was hardly ever taken

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<v Speaker 4>care of by his mother, and therefore Lamont so at

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<v Speaker 4>the time that these injuries would have been dated when

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<v Speaker 4>he sustained them. Trustin was not around either Lamont or

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<v Speaker 4>his mother. He was in the care of other.

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<v Speaker 2>People, so he had lived with them.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, So even if these older injuries were the result

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<v Speaker 4>of the abuse, it was not from Lamont or his mother.

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<v Speaker 3>No one was charged in this two thousand and four incident,

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<v Speaker 3>but child protective services were made aware, and even though

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<v Speaker 3>Lamont was never even considered a suspect in two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and four, the Hamilton County prosecutors raised the specter of

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<v Speaker 3>ongoing abuse while seeking the death penalty for Lamont in

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<v Speaker 3>two thousand and six.

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<v Speaker 4>The Death Penalty Information Center has a report called the

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<v Speaker 4>two Percent Report. If you look statistically, Hamilton County and

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<v Speaker 4>Kyga County in Ohio, Cleveland and Cincinnati are part of

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<v Speaker 4>the two percent of counties in the entire nation that

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<v Speaker 4>account for more than half of people on death row

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<v Speaker 4>and more than half of people who've been executed in

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<v Speaker 4>this country.

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<v Speaker 3>We've covered a lot of Ohio wrongful convictions, too many

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<v Speaker 3>to list, but we're going to link Elwood Jones and

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<v Speaker 3>Keith Lamar both death penalty cases handled by Hamilton County

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<v Speaker 3>prosecutors in which they hid or ignored exculpatory evidence at trial,

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<v Speaker 3>and Lamont's story is no different. So let's get to that.

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<v Speaker 3>On January nineteenth, two thousand and six, tragedy struck when

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<v Speaker 3>Trustin was staying with Liz, Milda and Lamont Lois Milton.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, she get up and go to work, and about

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<v Speaker 5>an hour or two later, I get the boys up

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<v Speaker 5>to get ready for school themselves. So I get Jordan

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<v Speaker 5>and Tiree out the door on their way to school.

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<v Speaker 5>And now I got trust In in Trinity, and I

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<v Speaker 5>get trust and situated for breakfast in our living room

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<v Speaker 5>that I made him French toes sticks and little sausage links.

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<v Speaker 5>He wanted to watch the new Jurassic Park movie, so

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<v Speaker 5>set him in a chair, put it on for him,

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<v Speaker 5>and decided to start my daily chorice. I grabbed Trinity,

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<v Speaker 5>my nine month old, and I went downstairs in the

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<v Speaker 5>basement to finish doing the laundry. That's when I first

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<v Speaker 5>heard him running across the floor above me. Next thing,

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<v Speaker 5>I hear he's coming tumbling down the stairs and hit

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<v Speaker 5>his head. So I immediately run over. His head was

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<v Speaker 5>back and his eyes were fluttering. Now I'm scared. I

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<v Speaker 5>just scooped him up and run up the stairs. So

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<v Speaker 5>I figured I throw some water on his face to

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<v Speaker 5>try to jug him awake, and his eyes were still fluttering.

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<v Speaker 5>So I seeing that he was struggling to take a breath.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know how to do CPR, but I attempted it,

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<v Speaker 5>so I had to open his mouth. I noticed a

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<v Speaker 5>piece of sausage lodged in the back of his mouth,

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<v Speaker 5>blocking his airway, so I got that out on my finger.

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<v Speaker 5>I held his nose and I blew in his mouth

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<v Speaker 5>like I see people do on TV.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't know how to do it.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not certified or nothing that so I probably blew

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<v Speaker 5>too much in his mouth because his stomach was getting bloated.

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<v Speaker 5>I got scared, so I called his mother and she

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<v Speaker 5>immediately came home. They made a big deal of this,

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<v Speaker 5>by the way, at my trial that I didn't immediately

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<v Speaker 5>call the paramedics instead of calling his mother.

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<v Speaker 2>They thought it was something to Farius, but it wasn't.

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<v Speaker 5>It was just I panicked, and so paramedics got there

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<v Speaker 5>very quick and started tending to him.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just a mess.

0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.600
<v Speaker 6>The dog is running around parking.

0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.680
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, I could never prove this, but I know my

0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.440
<v Speaker 5>dog when I left the room, tried to take his

0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.720
<v Speaker 5>food from him while he was sitting in that chair.

0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.880
<v Speaker 5>I believe that's what prompted Trusting to run across that.

0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.880
<v Speaker 3>Floor, and that might explain why he ended up with

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:42.760
<v Speaker 3>a piece of food lodge in his throat.

0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.559
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, the sausage, and I know my dog was harassing

0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.959
<v Speaker 5>for it. But they get Trusting in the ambulance and

0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.439
<v Speaker 5>Zamilda gets in the ambulance with him, and me and

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.480
<v Speaker 5>Trinity we followed them to the emergency room at Children's.

0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 5>That's how my day started. January nineteenth, one thousand and six.

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.959
<v Speaker 3>You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this

0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.720
<v Speaker 3>and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.160
<v Speaker 3>and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:21.600
<v Speaker 3>on Apple Podcasts.

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.440
<v Speaker 4>Trustin had head injuries that were fatal. He had blood

0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 4>trapped between the layers of his brain, which they call

0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 4>subdural hematoma, and then his brain also swelled, which is

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 4>what happens anytime there's any sort of injury or trauma.

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.119
<v Speaker 4>To the brain. They call it cerebral edema. And anytime

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 4>your brain swells that also puts pressure on your optic

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.120
<v Speaker 4>nerve and results in rental hemorrhages, so bleeding on the

0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:51.239
<v Speaker 4>back of your eye.

0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 3>And by now our listeners are familiar with these findings

0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 3>as what are commonly associated with the grotesque junk science

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 3>prosecution theory as shaking baby syndrome. We're going to have

0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.400
<v Speaker 3>our shaken baby syndrome episode of wronful conviction junk science

0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.080
<v Speaker 3>lenked as well. For years, the theory was widely accepted

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.840
<v Speaker 3>across the medical establishment that the presentation of these three

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.520
<v Speaker 3>things could mean only one thing, that the infant or

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.960
<v Speaker 3>toddler had been shaken to death by their most recent caretaker,

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 3>denying any other potential or even probable causes. But over

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.960
<v Speaker 3>time this theory has gradually fallen apart.

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.160
<v Speaker 4>And this field has been very nimble because anytime someone

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.360
<v Speaker 4>shows well guess what this person, we know it was

0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 4>an accident and they show these injuries and then they

0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 4>say like, oh, okay, well, first of all, we're not

0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 4>going to call it shaking baby. Because they did experiments.

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 4>They had big, beefy football players shaik a crash test

0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 4>dummy baby, and they could not generate the type of

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.000
<v Speaker 4>force needed to cause the brain injuries without breaking the

0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 4>child's neck. And so they said, okay, so so maybe

0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.200
<v Speaker 4>shaking alone can't cause it. So shaking with impact, that's

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 4>what we'll say, shaking with impact. So we don't call

0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 4>it shaken baby, will call it abusive head trauma. And

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.440
<v Speaker 4>they just keep morphine and adapting to whatever fits.

0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 3>No matter what has been revealed through biomechanical studies and

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.520
<v Speaker 3>a confluence of medical histories that prove that in addition

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 3>to accidental causes like a fall down the stairs, there

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 3>are eighty one pre existing medical conditions and counting that

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 3>can cause the presentation of those findings. And yet there

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:33.200
<v Speaker 3>are still proponents of this theory that refused to admit

0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.960
<v Speaker 3>that limiting the cause to shaking alone is an unscientific

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 3>leap in logic. And so, in two thousand and six,

0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.280
<v Speaker 3>even though some of the medical establishment had begun to

0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.720
<v Speaker 3>realize the problem with this theory, including the neuroscientists who

0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.680
<v Speaker 3>had developed it, the state's witnesses attributed Trusten's triad of

0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 3>findings to shaking and any other injuries, including a sheared

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.400
<v Speaker 3>vertebrae and what appeared to be an impact injury to

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.520
<v Speaker 3>further violence. Lamount was arrested on January twenty second, two

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 3>thousand and six, three days after Trustin's death. He's taken

0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.880
<v Speaker 3>a trial in June two thousand and seven.

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 4>The prosecutor, through their child abuse pediatrician witnesses, said these

0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.040
<v Speaker 4>kinds of injuries could not have come from a fall

0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 4>down the stairs. It had to have been abuse. You know,

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 4>we only see these kinds of injuries from forces like

0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 4>in a car accident or maybe LaMotte swung trusting around like.

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 6>A base ball base.

0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 4>You know, that's what have caused it, but not from

0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 4>falling down the stairs. And then in addition, Trusten had

0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 4>some injuries in his anal rectal era. He had three

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.240
<v Speaker 4>puncture wounds in his rectal mucosa, so kind of up

0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 4>in his rectum. There were three wounds. I think they

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.720
<v Speaker 4>were about two millimeters in diameter, and then kind of

0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 4>on the outside lip of his anus. It's not entirely

0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 4>clear if it's a tear or a cut. It wasn't

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.840
<v Speaker 4>that accurately described. And so those injuries were used to

0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:55.640
<v Speaker 4>support a charge of rape.

0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 3>As we'll explained later there was a completely innocent explanation

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 3>for those anal and rect injuries, yet the child abuse

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.600
<v Speaker 3>pediatrician painted a completely different picture.

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.400
<v Speaker 4>The child abuse pediatrician did say that the injuries were

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.480
<v Speaker 4>consistent with an adult penis. Now that's the magic word, right, consistent,

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.159
<v Speaker 4>which I think a lot of fact finders here and

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.399
<v Speaker 4>think that means a match, but it doesn't at all.

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.280
<v Speaker 4>It just means we can't exclude it as the cause.

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.719
<v Speaker 3>I mean, what adult penis is two millimeters in diameter.

0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 4>So macrof is only talking about the external injury kind

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.359
<v Speaker 4>of along the edge of the anus. She never saw

0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.399
<v Speaker 4>the internal injuries, the puncture wounds.

0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.960
<v Speaker 3>So the child abuse pediatrician did not have a full

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 3>understanding of the injuries, which may explain why the coroner,

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.280
<v Speaker 3>doctor Gretel Stevens, true different conclusions.

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.879
<v Speaker 4>What the coroner said was that it looked like the

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.680
<v Speaker 4>interior wounds were like poked with something sharp, like maybe

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.520
<v Speaker 4>a pencil. And the prosecutors argued at trial that this

0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.200
<v Speaker 4>wasn't penile rape, but this was rape with some sort

0:17:59.240 --> 0:17:59.840
<v Speaker 4>of object.

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 3>While that explanation is still incorrect, at least doctor Stevens's

0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 3>assumptions were more grounded in reality. However, the investigation failed

0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.680
<v Speaker 3>to find any such object or any efforts to cover

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 3>up that kind of crime. Doctor Stevens also acknowledged the

0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.400
<v Speaker 3>evolving science on shaking baby syndrome, saying that a rotational

0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.120
<v Speaker 3>fall would be consistent with the shearing of the neck

0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 3>that trust And experienced, and that stairfalls are responsible for

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 3>the kinds of findings that were present in trust In situation.

0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.840
<v Speaker 4>And that's the thing, like doctor Stevens pretty much was

0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.960
<v Speaker 4>a straight shooter at trial, and it was just the

0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.679
<v Speaker 4>fact that she hadn't seen the photographs of the actual

0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.400
<v Speaker 4>staircase to know that there was a ledge abutting one

0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:45.840
<v Speaker 4>side of the stairs that kind of mashed up with

0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.680
<v Speaker 4>some injuries that she saw. There was also a throw

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 4>rug if he had slipped on, that may have contributed.

0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 4>She didn't know that Lamont had reported hearing trust and running.

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.919
<v Speaker 3>In addition, the coroner was unaware of the innocent explanation

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.320
<v Speaker 3>for these anal and rectal injuries. So since neither one

0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.360
<v Speaker 3>of the state's experts had a full picture of the incident, this,

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.120
<v Speaker 3>along with Lamont's ineffective council, allowed the state's erroneous narrative

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 3>to take hold.

0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.280
<v Speaker 4>Lamont's trial counsel, Clyde Bennett is the attorney's name, is

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.160
<v Speaker 4>not a bad criminal defense attorney. He's actually pretty well

0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.719
<v Speaker 4>known as a good criminal defense attorney. But there are

0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.359
<v Speaker 4>a couple things that just weren't going to work in

0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:27.640
<v Speaker 4>Lamont's case. Number One, a death penalty case is different,

0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 4>A dead kid is different, and you can't just kind

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 4>of rely on your old tricks and techniques in this

0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.119
<v Speaker 4>kind of case. Number two, this is a case where

0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:45.159
<v Speaker 4>the evidence is all based on medical expert testimony. The

0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.119
<v Speaker 4>evidence is the state expert coming in and saying you

0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:52.159
<v Speaker 4>can only get these injuries from abuse, period. And his

0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 4>trial council did not hire an expert, not only not

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 4>to testify or just even to consult with an expert

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.440
<v Speaker 4>to explain the medical records to him, to explain the

0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:09.240
<v Speaker 4>flaws in the state experts testimony and reasoning. He said

0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.080
<v Speaker 4>he thought that he could just rely on cross examination.

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.159
<v Speaker 4>And his theory was that this chatabusee pediatrician. She's not

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.200
<v Speaker 4>qualified to be talking about retinal hemorrhages. She's not an ophthalmologist.

0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 4>She's not qualified to be talking about the mechanism of injury.

0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.600
<v Speaker 4>She doesn't have a degree in biomechanics or anything. Now,

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.080
<v Speaker 4>this is all true. The problem was when he made

0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.720
<v Speaker 4>that objection, the court overruled it, and he had no

0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.200
<v Speaker 4>plan B. So when that didn't work, he was left

0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 4>to just kind of on his own try to cross examine.

0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.320
<v Speaker 4>And he knew enough to be dangerous, and so he's

0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 4>asking questions about stuff that's not relevant. Like he's trying

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.280
<v Speaker 4>to say, isn't it true that you could have a

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.480
<v Speaker 4>delayed onset of injury? And that is true sometimes, except

0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.080
<v Speaker 4>for that's not what happened in Tresten's case. We know

0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.639
<v Speaker 4>what happened. He fell down the stairs and was immediately unresponsive,

0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.679
<v Speaker 4>So that line of questioning was completely irrelevant. Also, he

0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.480
<v Speaker 4>didn't hire an expert to look through the medical records.

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.440
<v Speaker 6>And he didn't look through the records himself.

0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, Lamont would have been better off with his

0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 3>original court appointed attorney, not I mean much better off.

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.399
<v Speaker 3>Because it turns out that mister Bennett was more than

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.240
<v Speaker 3>a little bit distracted at the time.

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.520
<v Speaker 4>That's true, he was a little distracted with his own

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 4>legal troubles. Mister Bennett himself was being investigated for some

0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:35.840
<v Speaker 4>pretty serious federal crimes. And in fact, shortly after Lamont

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.960
<v Speaker 4>was sentenced to death, he signed his own plea agreement

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.679
<v Speaker 4>and turned himself into federal custody and went away to

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:49.040
<v Speaker 4>federal prison. He pled to structured deposits, so depositing money

0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:50.959
<v Speaker 4>just under the reporting limit.

0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Unbeknownst to Lamont, Clyde Bennett was connected to a major

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.560
<v Speaker 3>drug dealer out of Dayton, Ohio, both of whom were

0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.919
<v Speaker 3>subjects of a federal investigation that ended in cooperation and

0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.000
<v Speaker 3>a plea deal for Clyde. Meanwhile, in Lamont's trial, Clyde

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.560
<v Speaker 3>neglected to prepare the vital medical expert testimony, as well

0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 3>as advised Lamont to take a bench trial in front

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 3>of a three judge panel, reasoning that a jury might

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 3>be susceptible to the emotion surrounding a dead child.

0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 4>Turns out, so are three judge panels.

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.800
<v Speaker 5>Exactly, especially when we know for sure that this judge

0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:27.960
<v Speaker 5>who's now passed on. Norbert Natel told Clyde Bennett and

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.720
<v Speaker 5>his chambers it wouldn't be wise for him to bring

0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 5>me in front of him on a bench trial because

0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.919
<v Speaker 5>I lose, And he still advised me not to have

0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:37.800
<v Speaker 5>a jury.

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.080
<v Speaker 4>Now, the advantage of not having a jury is that

0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.640
<v Speaker 4>you can save a lot of time because you don't

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.240
<v Speaker 4>have to go through vaidir and get a death qualified jury.

0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.960
<v Speaker 6>So Clyde took a flat fee.

0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 4>From Lamont's family. So it's just economical to make the

0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.280
<v Speaker 4>trial go as fast as possible, and so great way

0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:58.639
<v Speaker 4>to cut down on time is to wave jury.

0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.679
<v Speaker 3>It sounds to me like the judge actually was telling

0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:03.840
<v Speaker 3>him if you do this, you're going to lose, and

0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:09.879
<v Speaker 3>he was like, great. I mean, I'm glad you're laughing

0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.240
<v Speaker 3>a lot, because you know, sometimes I feel like I'm

0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 3>laughing to keep from crying. But you live through this.

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 5>That what I'm doing I've been doing in society. Oh

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:20.919
<v Speaker 5>my god, I've been laughing to keep from crying.

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Man. It's just so much trauma on this journey. Man,

0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:25.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just a lot of trauma.

0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.240
<v Speaker 3>So this bench troul played out exactly as this judge

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:30.879
<v Speaker 3>told Lamont's attorney it would.

0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:34.960
<v Speaker 4>It was pretty easy for them to convict because all

0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:40.120
<v Speaker 4>of the state's expert testimony was entirely unrebutted. So they

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.359
<v Speaker 4>have these experts from the States saying this had to

0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.200
<v Speaker 4>be abuse. There is no way this could have come

0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.920
<v Speaker 4>from a fall down the stairs. And then on top

0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 4>of that, they had the state saying and look at

0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 4>all this other suspicious stuff injuries in his anal rectal era,

0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.119
<v Speaker 4>these injuries in the past when Lamont was around, trust in.

0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:03.960
<v Speaker 5>Clyde Bennett pops up in the jail on a Sunday

0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 5>and I'm pissed at this point.

0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:07.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, what are you doing here?

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.640
<v Speaker 5>And he just said, man, you know, I just wanted

0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:13.560
<v Speaker 5>to come and ask you how are federal prisons, how

0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 5>are they ran, what it's like in federal prison. I'm

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 5>looking at him, like, what does that have to do

0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:21.280
<v Speaker 5>with my case? He said, well, he's well, I know

0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:23.720
<v Speaker 5>you've been in federal prison before, and I'm going there.

0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.439
<v Speaker 5>I'm fighting for my own life, Lamont, so I just

0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:28.840
<v Speaker 5>wanted to know how these federal prisons. I walked off

0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:30.479
<v Speaker 5>on him and went back to my sale. Man, I

0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:32.600
<v Speaker 5>was done with him at the time, so all hope

0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:36.680
<v Speaker 5>was lost at that point. I was convicted and then

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:40.520
<v Speaker 5>mitigation will you have to get the most closest loving

0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:44.199
<v Speaker 5>person in your life. They had to literally beg the

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.480
<v Speaker 5>courts to save my life. It was humiliating for me

0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.479
<v Speaker 5>and my family, and it didn't work, so they were

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:51.000
<v Speaker 5>dug in.

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.320
<v Speaker 2>So I still got sentenced to death.

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 5>And my father, who I have a lot of love

0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:00.879
<v Speaker 5>and respect for, he's actually my hero. I getting on

0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.560
<v Speaker 5>a stand and testifying and asking the course to save

0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.320
<v Speaker 5>my life and telling the story that he did about

0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:09.960
<v Speaker 5>me and growing up with my siblings. He had a

0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 5>heart attack right there in the courtroom.

0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:15.280
<v Speaker 3>He had a heart attack right there in the courtroom.

0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:18.199
<v Speaker 5>Right in the courtroom. Ambulance was called. They saved his

0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:21.040
<v Speaker 5>life there, but he had a heart attack right in

0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.639
<v Speaker 5>the courtroom. They never got talked about in the media

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 5>or nothing like that. They was too busy calling me

0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 5>a monster and a child rapist. And my father, he's

0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.720
<v Speaker 5>no longer with us. He died in twenty eighteen before

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:36.400
<v Speaker 5>I got home, but from that day his health.

0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:54.879
<v Speaker 2>Just declined since to death.

0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 5>Isolated away from general population, there's no programming set up

0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:03.760
<v Speaker 5>for us back there. It's just mundane and waking up

0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:05.840
<v Speaker 5>every day knowing that your name is on a list

0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:10.240
<v Speaker 5>to be executed. The State of Ohio intents on executing you.

0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:13.760
<v Speaker 5>And that's like having a gorilla constantly on your shoulders,

0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.760
<v Speaker 5>weighing you down. And this is it from far as

0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:19.439
<v Speaker 5>you can see, is it every day? It's like the

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:22.720
<v Speaker 5>same day. The first year I was there, I was

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:25.120
<v Speaker 5>still in the haze. I didn't know what to expect

0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 5>as far as the courts. I've never appealed the sentence before,

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 5>so I was, of course jaded and kind of paranoid

0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:36.119
<v Speaker 5>of my attorneys after coming through the horror show of

0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:38.159
<v Speaker 5>the trial that I went through and being served up

0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:41.440
<v Speaker 5>by my trial attorney, like, well, what's going to happen

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:42.160
<v Speaker 5>at this phase.

0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:46.560
<v Speaker 4>Although Lamont had pretty capable post conviction attorneys from the

0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:51.119
<v Speaker 4>Ohio Public Defender's Office, unfortunately they couldn't get any traction

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:55.320
<v Speaker 4>in state court, which is not uncommon. But their claims

0:26:55.320 --> 0:26:57.919
<v Speaker 4>that they raised were not that different than what we

0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:01.040
<v Speaker 4>raised in our federal habeas petition, and the problem is

0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.840
<v Speaker 4>they didn't have access to the evidence they needed. They

0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.800
<v Speaker 4>asked for discovery to get the medical records to depose

0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.640
<v Speaker 4>the coroner, just like we did, and it was all denied.

0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 3>As we've mentioned a trial, both states experts Macaroff and

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:19.199
<v Speaker 3>Stevens have been operating with incomplete understandings of the incident. Additionally,

0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:23.160
<v Speaker 3>Makarov had ignored the evolving science on SBS, which continued

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.000
<v Speaker 3>through post conviction. Even as the science continued to evolve

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.680
<v Speaker 3>further and further away from her position.

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:35.199
<v Speaker 4>Doctor macaroff, she's doubling down on everything, as everyone in

0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:39.119
<v Speaker 4>her sort of little industry has to do. This is

0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:44.120
<v Speaker 4>what makes this field so dangerous and unscientific is the

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:48.399
<v Speaker 4>feedback loop that exists. During our deposition, doctor Macroff cited

0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:52.840
<v Speaker 4>an article about stairfalls, saying, look, we know stairfalls aren't

0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:56.360
<v Speaker 4>fatal because we draw all this data from different hospitals.

0:27:56.640 --> 0:27:58.800
<v Speaker 4>All these kids come in after falling down the stairs

0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:01.200
<v Speaker 4>and they didn't die. And I said, okay, I said,

0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:04.280
<v Speaker 4>would trust In's case be included in that data set?

0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:06.200
<v Speaker 4>And she said, well, what do you mean? I said, well,

0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:08.800
<v Speaker 4>is his case classified as a stairfall because you guys

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:12.240
<v Speaker 4>don't believe mister Hunter that he fell down the stairs.

0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:14.679
<v Speaker 6>Right, And she was like, oh, that's.

0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:18.520
<v Speaker 4>A good point. They're self selecting the data they're using

0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:21.560
<v Speaker 4>to draw the conclusions that they used to exclude the

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:24.119
<v Speaker 4>data that they don't want. And then they say that,

0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:27.000
<v Speaker 4>you know these are so rare, and I agree. You know,

0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 4>most kids who tumble down the stairs don't die. From it,

0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.359
<v Speaker 4>But that doesn't mean that it's impossible, which is what

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.919
<v Speaker 4>they say to put people on death row. And just

0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.560
<v Speaker 4>because something is rare doesn't mean that they know which

0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:43.680
<v Speaker 4>is the rare case and which isn't. So there's all

0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:46.560
<v Speaker 4>this bad science that goes into it. The thing that

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 4>actually is scientific about this would be biomechanics, right Force

0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:55.440
<v Speaker 4>chaw Tobe s Pediatricians don't think biomechanics have any place

0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:58.840
<v Speaker 4>in their world. And when doctor Macroff, she says, I

0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.000
<v Speaker 4>didn't say lamont use trust and I just said that

0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:05.000
<v Speaker 4>his report does not match the mechanism of injury.

0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:07.280
<v Speaker 6>And I said, well, when.

0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:09.320
<v Speaker 4>You're talking about the mechanism of injury, that kind of

0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:10.280
<v Speaker 4>sounds like force.

0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:13.400
<v Speaker 4>Oh, no, I'm not a physicist. Biomechanics doesn't fit there

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.120
<v Speaker 4>or whatever. I don't know how right, I don't know

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:20.360
<v Speaker 4>how you can talk about a mechanism without using biomechanics. Anyway,

0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.520
<v Speaker 4>we did hire a biol mechanical engineer and we went

0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.040
<v Speaker 4>to the site and he took measurements of the stairs

0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:31.960
<v Speaker 4>and the elasticity of the surface, and he used a

0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:34.800
<v Speaker 4>computer program and he put in the height that Trustin

0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:36.440
<v Speaker 4>was and his weight and the.

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:38.600
<v Speaker 6>Average that a child his age.

0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.680
<v Speaker 4>Could run, and you know, ran through all these different

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.640
<v Speaker 4>scenarios of how he could have fallen and showed that,

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:48.479
<v Speaker 4>like the forces generated were well within the range that

0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 4>have been shown to be enough to generate the kind

0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:52.120
<v Speaker 4>of injuries.

0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 6>That he had.

0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:56.360
<v Speaker 4>So absolutely stair falls can cause this. And also now

0:29:56.400 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 4>with cell phones and security cameras, like, people have started

0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:05.400
<v Speaker 4>capturing injuries that otherwise would have been indicted as abuse

0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 4>if we didn't have proof that it was actually accidental.

0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:11.600
<v Speaker 4>And doctor Macaroff claims it.

0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Even that could be doctors, even that could be doctored.

0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:16.320
<v Speaker 4>She maybe would have to see it with her own

0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:19.640
<v Speaker 4>eyes to be convinced, and so you know, there's just

0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:22.760
<v Speaker 4>no pleasing the child abuse pediatricians.

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:26.680
<v Speaker 3>However, the defense was able to please the Carner doctor

0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 3>Stevens when they provided a fuller picture of the incident,

0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:34.800
<v Speaker 3>including photographs of the staircase, a biomechanical expert, and finally

0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 3>the innocent explanation for the anal and rectal injuries that

0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:41.520
<v Speaker 3>were available to prosecutors, the States, experts, and even la

0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:45.440
<v Speaker 3>Mon's attorney at the trial. Had he even bothered to look.

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.520
<v Speaker 4>He would have found like our investigator Pam Swanson did

0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:52.520
<v Speaker 4>when we took over the case notations in the medical

0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.960
<v Speaker 4>records that staff at the hospital in the pice had

0:30:56.000 --> 0:31:00.600
<v Speaker 4>attempted to take Trusten's temperature three times with a rector thermometer,

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:05.000
<v Speaker 4>had been unsuccessful, and immediately after that had noted blood

0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 4>in his rectum, which of course perfectly matches up with

0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 4>the three puncture wounds that the coroner identified and said

0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:15.120
<v Speaker 4>could have been caused by something sharp like a pencil.

0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.880
<v Speaker 4>And in fact, and in another piece of undisclosed evidence,

0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:22.440
<v Speaker 4>the coroner even told detectives that she couldn't rule out

0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:26.120
<v Speaker 4>a temperature probe as the cause of this. Now, nobody

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:29.360
<v Speaker 4>turned that over to Lamont at trial, and the prosecutor

0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:32.520
<v Speaker 4>didn't ask the coroner that question, but he did ask

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:36.720
<v Speaker 4>the child abuse pediatrician at trial if Trusten's injuries could

0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:38.960
<v Speaker 4>have been caused by a thermometer, and she said no.

0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 4>When we deposed the coroner and showed her these records,

0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:46.160
<v Speaker 4>she immediately changed her opinion on the cause of those injuries.

0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.200
<v Speaker 4>She still said it was non accidental, but it was

0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:51.720
<v Speaker 4>inflicted medically, not as an assault. For me, I saw

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:53.760
<v Speaker 4>that and felt like I was just shouting into the

0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 4>void for.

0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Years after that.

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:58.320
<v Speaker 4>Nobody seemed to care about it until the coroner did.

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:00.280
<v Speaker 6>But I was like, people, this is it.

0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:05.120
<v Speaker 5>This explains everything, because that was a huge void in

0:32:05.120 --> 0:32:05.760
<v Speaker 5>my defense.

0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was a huge gag because nobody could explain I.

0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:11.560
<v Speaker 5>Never could explain the rape to the time we found

0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:14.800
<v Speaker 5>that in the record, I could not explain the rape.

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 2>I didn't rapeing.

0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:20.720
<v Speaker 3>So these idiots couldn't even figure out the three pokes

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 3>with the thermometer were what caused what otherwise sounded like

0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:27.600
<v Speaker 3>an awful thing that was done to this child, right.

0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, that's the really troubling thing is that I

0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:35.800
<v Speaker 4>think nobody looked at these records, including doctor Stevens. You know,

0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:39.520
<v Speaker 4>at the time, had she she would have learned things

0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:43.480
<v Speaker 4>about the scene that would have explained the mechanism of injury,

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:47.440
<v Speaker 4>plus the findings about the anal and rectal injuries, and

0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:51.160
<v Speaker 4>so then like she did her deposition when we showed

0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:54.040
<v Speaker 4>them to her, she would have changed her opinion not

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:58.360
<v Speaker 4>only about the injuries that supported the rape, but also

0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 4>about the cause of death that it was not a homicide.

0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.000
<v Speaker 4>And his trial attorney is just as much to blame.

0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:08.320
<v Speaker 3>So in addition to the Brady violations. This was also

0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.720
<v Speaker 3>a clear case of ineffective assistance of counsel as well.

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.960
<v Speaker 4>When we went back to our judge in federal court judgment,

0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:19.200
<v Speaker 4>Michael Watson, with the deposition testimony from Clyde, he kind of,

0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:21.080
<v Speaker 4>in his opinion went through all the things he didn't do,

0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:23.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, didn't hire experts, didn't talk to witnesses, didn't

0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:25.760
<v Speaker 4>look at the records, blah blah blah. And then the

0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:28.520
<v Speaker 4>way he put it was he appeared to settle on

0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:32.000
<v Speaker 4>his strategy of not using an expert, not as a

0:33:32.040 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 4>result of a strategic investigation, but rather in lieu of one,

0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:39.240
<v Speaker 4>which is kind of the classic definition of being an

0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:44.840
<v Speaker 4>effective lawyer. You know, like all these people participate in

0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:48.920
<v Speaker 4>a process that could result in a man's execution, and

0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:52.000
<v Speaker 4>that there's so little you know, I mean plenty of time.

0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:56.480
<v Speaker 4>I think there's outright misconduct and malicious intent, and I

0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:58.720
<v Speaker 4>think there's some of that here with the Brady evidence,

0:33:58.800 --> 0:34:00.960
<v Speaker 4>the withheld evidence that we see, but a lot of

0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:05.960
<v Speaker 4>other is I think just in competence, a lack of thoroughness.

0:34:06.280 --> 0:34:10.000
<v Speaker 4>I don't know that might even be worse, because you know,

0:34:10.120 --> 0:34:14.240
<v Speaker 4>you care so little about being careful in case.

0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:17.080
<v Speaker 2>It was such magnitude as a person's life.

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 3>Right, with proceeding so fraught with constitutional violations and convincing

0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:25.200
<v Speaker 3>evidence of innocence. The Hamilton County Prosecutor's office joined Lamont's

0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:27.439
<v Speaker 3>motion for a new trial in April twenty twenty three,

0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:31.040
<v Speaker 3>but this didn't mean that they were finally seeking justice

0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:31.600
<v Speaker 3>for Lamont.

0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:34.279
<v Speaker 4>After Lamont had a new trial and we are trying

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:37.600
<v Speaker 4>to get him out on bond, the prosecutor's office ran

0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:40.960
<v Speaker 4>to the coroner's office and got the other pathologists in

0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:46.360
<v Speaker 4>the office to issue this addendum to the original autopsy

0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:49.720
<v Speaker 4>report that basically just says, like, we think the coroner

0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:52.440
<v Speaker 4>was wrong to change her opinion under oath and the deposition.

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.680
<v Speaker 4>We do think that this should still be a homicide

0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 4>and still be a rape with zero explanation. And then

0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.719
<v Speaker 4>those we just refused to talk to us without the

0:35:02.760 --> 0:35:06.080
<v Speaker 4>prosecutors being present. It just became so obvious to us

0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:10.400
<v Speaker 4>that I believe the Hamilton County Corner's Office, there's supposed

0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:15.520
<v Speaker 4>to be neutral experts guided by science, considers itself an

0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:17.600
<v Speaker 4>arm of the prosecutor's office.

0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.400
<v Speaker 3>So while Lamont was still trying to get out on bond,

0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:22.760
<v Speaker 3>and the lead up to his new trial, the prosecutor's

0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 3>office began to apply pressure and here comes to please offer.

0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 4>Basically, Lamont had this pressure of stay here in jail

0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:33.520
<v Speaker 4>for at least another year, or take a plea and

0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:36.439
<v Speaker 4>get out time served. Lamont could walk out the door. Well,

0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:38.960
<v Speaker 4>we decided to fight it and ask for bond, and

0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:41.000
<v Speaker 4>the prosecutors fought dirty.

0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:42.480
<v Speaker 6>Basically had to go through.

0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:45.879
<v Speaker 4>A little mini trial where they're allowed to summarize their

0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:49.440
<v Speaker 4>case by presenting evidence, including evidence that wasn't even presented

0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:53.040
<v Speaker 4>at trial the first time, so stuff that isn't tested

0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 4>in any way, but just allegations. We were able to

0:35:56.040 --> 0:35:58.399
<v Speaker 4>beat them there. The judge ruled that they hadn't met

0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 4>their burden to keep him locked up. But then the

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 4>bond was five hundred thousand dollars, which he would have

0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:08.040
<v Speaker 4>needed to get fifty thousand dollars together cash to meet.

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Which would have been very hard, which we couldn't.

0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:12.400
<v Speaker 4>Do, I mean, So that was one problem. And then

0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:15.840
<v Speaker 4>the other problem was the prosecutor convinced the judge to

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:19.719
<v Speaker 4>order no contact for Lamont with anyone under eighteen, so

0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:23.160
<v Speaker 4>that meant all of his nine grandchildren eight.

0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:24.399
<v Speaker 2>At the time and went on the way.

0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:26.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, okay, he wouldn't be able to meet them.

0:36:26.719 --> 0:36:29.560
<v Speaker 5>My children was in the courtroom when they asked for that,

0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 5>and just seeing them cry, man, and they want me

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:34.200
<v Speaker 5>to meet their kids so bad, and I want to

0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:35.839
<v Speaker 5>meet my grandchildren so bad.

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:36.720
<v Speaker 2>They're right there.

0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 5>That's when you know the decision was firmly made that

0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:41.840
<v Speaker 5>I'm taking his plea agreement.

0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:44.719
<v Speaker 3>It sounds like the prosecutor, Seth Tiger, was just trying

0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:45.880
<v Speaker 3>to have it both ways.

0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:49.320
<v Speaker 4>You're saying that he's so dangerous and such a monster

0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:51.640
<v Speaker 4>that you don't think you should be let at at all.

0:36:51.920 --> 0:36:54.440
<v Speaker 4>But you've offered him a plea, and if he agrees

0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:55.239
<v Speaker 4>to that, he.

0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:57.920
<v Speaker 6>Walks out of the door today.

0:36:57.760 --> 0:37:00.680
<v Speaker 4>With no conditions at all, no conditions, which is what

0:37:00.719 --> 0:37:01.640
<v Speaker 4>he ended up doing.

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:05.600
<v Speaker 3>Lamar took the plea for time served, which also meant

0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:09.400
<v Speaker 3>that he's not eligible for state compensation regardless. He was

0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:14.640
<v Speaker 3>finally free after sixteen long years on June fifteenth, twenty twenty.

0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:17.839
<v Speaker 5>Three, one of the best days of my life mine too,

0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:22.080
<v Speaker 5>on Aaron's birthday, by the way, and ironically I was

0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:26.240
<v Speaker 5>convicted on her birthday as well, sixteen years earlier. Aaron

0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:28.840
<v Speaker 5>had already told me it's a bank of cameras and

0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:31.600
<v Speaker 5>reporters out there, so be prepared when you walk through

0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:34.080
<v Speaker 5>the door. One of the questions was how are you

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 5>feeling getting your freedom back? And my answer then and

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:40.840
<v Speaker 5>today is still the same. Imagine feeling all of the

0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:45.440
<v Speaker 5>emotions anger, stress, joy and relief, frustration, all of those

0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 5>emotions at the same time. I'm still going through it,

0:37:49.040 --> 0:37:49.879
<v Speaker 5>trying to figure it out.

0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:50.160
<v Speaker 2>Man.

0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:53.759
<v Speaker 5>It's been amazing though, and I actually got a good

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:57.840
<v Speaker 5>start on everything too, got my driver's license, my cousin

0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:01.320
<v Speaker 5>gave me a vehicle. I got a job rather quickly.

0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 5>It took a little longer for me to get in

0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:05.399
<v Speaker 5>an apartment. I have to go in for a full

0:38:05.480 --> 0:38:08.840
<v Speaker 5>knee replacement surgery because the writer is on set in

0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:11.719
<v Speaker 5>on it, bone on bone, so I haven't been able

0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:15.680
<v Speaker 5>to work, and that is frustrating. So I'm just trying

0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:18.719
<v Speaker 5>to figure things out. Aaron set up a GoFundMe page

0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:20.359
<v Speaker 5>that's been helping a little bit.

0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:23.279
<v Speaker 3>Well, we're hoping our audience can help out a whole

0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:25.200
<v Speaker 3>bunch more. And who knows how long it's going to

0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 3>be till Lemon is on his feet again. So if

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:31.480
<v Speaker 3>you have a few bucks, a few thousand bucks, a

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 3>few million bucks laid around, whatever you can spare, and

0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:37.000
<v Speaker 3>you want to help this man who has already been

0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 3>through so much. We're going to have the GoFundMe linked

0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:44.000
<v Speaker 3>in the episode description along with Lamont's LinkedIn page. He's

0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:47.000
<v Speaker 3>begun public speaking, and he's a great speaker, so if

0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 3>anyone's interested, I'm sure he'd be very happy to have

0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:52.680
<v Speaker 3>work that's not as physically demanding as a job he

0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:55.520
<v Speaker 3>was able to find before the surgery. And with that,

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 3>we're going to go to closing arguments, where first of all,

0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:00.440
<v Speaker 3>I want to thank Aaron and Lamont, both of you

0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.480
<v Speaker 3>so much for joining us today. And now I'm just

0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:05.279
<v Speaker 3>gonna do what I do best. I'm going to kick

0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 3>back in my chair, turn off my microphone, leave my

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.840
<v Speaker 3>headphones on, close my eyes, and just listen to anything

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 3>you feel is left to be said. So let's start

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:17.000
<v Speaker 3>with you Erin and then just hand the mic off

0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.520
<v Speaker 3>to Lamont, and Lamont you take us out into the sunset.

0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:23.799
<v Speaker 4>Nothing like this happens without the help of a village,

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.600
<v Speaker 4>and that's certainly true in Lamont's case. In our office,

0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:32.239
<v Speaker 4>attorneys Tasiplesio and Justin Thompson. We're also on Lamont's team.

0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:36.279
<v Speaker 4>I mentioned Pam Swanson, she's retired now, but she's the

0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:40.879
<v Speaker 4>investigator that kick things off. And then our paralegal extraordinary

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:42.560
<v Speaker 4>Shannon Flammer.

0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, yes, who runs.

0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:47.520
<v Speaker 4>The office and is really the backbone of everything. Was

0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:49.920
<v Speaker 4>absolutely wonderful. But I honestly don't know if there's a

0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:52.439
<v Speaker 4>single person in the Capitol Habeus unit who didn't help

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:55.360
<v Speaker 4>in some way with Lamont's case. And that includes a

0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:58.560
<v Speaker 4>lot of our law student externs who helped us with

0:39:58.640 --> 0:40:03.200
<v Speaker 4>research and writing, people helped with site checking, just brainstorming

0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:08.000
<v Speaker 4>figuring out how to approach this crazy developments in the case,

0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:11.160
<v Speaker 4>especially when the Supreme Court is changing the law on

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:13.480
<v Speaker 4>what we're allowed to present in the state court and

0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:16.680
<v Speaker 4>federal court, you know, as it's going on, you know.

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:19.799
<v Speaker 4>And then he had post conviction attorneys Melissa Jackson and

0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.799
<v Speaker 4>Kim Rigby at the Ohio Public Defender's Office who fought

0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:28.000
<v Speaker 4>valiantly and kept hitting a brick wall but stayed supportive

0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:31.640
<v Speaker 4>of Lamont. And then we are just so grateful for

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:35.879
<v Speaker 4>al Gerhartstein who's been so supportive and brought on some

0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:39.440
<v Speaker 4>amazing attorneys to help us in state court, Sarah Jelsonino

0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:42.839
<v Speaker 4>and Elizabeth Bonham and Marcus Siddodi. They really made an

0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:46.800
<v Speaker 4>awesome team. And then Kate Jutson, who's the executive director

0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:50.319
<v Speaker 4>at the Center for Integrity of Forensic Sciences, helped with

0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:53.760
<v Speaker 4>in particular her expertise in shaking baby science and abuse

0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:57.759
<v Speaker 4>of head trauma. Finally, I think a big part of

0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.239
<v Speaker 4>Lamont's success has been his family. He's mentioned, I think

0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:03.200
<v Speaker 4>he has maybe one of the most supportive families that

0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:06.400
<v Speaker 4>I've ever seen. It's been a real privilege to have

0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:09.360
<v Speaker 4>Lamont and his family trust me with his life and

0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:13.399
<v Speaker 4>with his case, because it's pretty scary, especially when it's

0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:16.359
<v Speaker 4>so complicated and technical and you don't know what's going on.

0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:19.720
<v Speaker 4>And they let me into their home to explain things

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:23.480
<v Speaker 4>and we're patient as I explained why we need to

0:41:23.520 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 4>be patient and why it takes so long, and that

0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:27.000
<v Speaker 4>kind of thing.

0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:30.480
<v Speaker 5>So one of the things I talk about, especially when

0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:33.080
<v Speaker 5>talking to the law students, is about you know, how

0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:37.080
<v Speaker 5>to try your best to meet your client where they are,

0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:41.600
<v Speaker 5>you know, intellectually, emotionally if you could. Because I just

0:41:41.680 --> 0:41:44.040
<v Speaker 5>had an attorney asked me you know, after doing the

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:46.279
<v Speaker 5>talk up there, she said, what could I do better?

0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:48.400
<v Speaker 5>I have a kind of a guarded client. You know

0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:50.799
<v Speaker 5>what I'm saying that I can't seem to get through too,

0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:53.200
<v Speaker 5>you know, and he don't trust me. I said, well,

0:41:53.560 --> 0:41:56.680
<v Speaker 5>my recommendation, this is what worked for me and my family.

0:41:57.080 --> 0:41:59.759
<v Speaker 5>It might not work for everybody. If you could pinpoint

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.600
<v Speaker 5>somebody in his family or trusted a friend or something

0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:05.960
<v Speaker 5>who he listens to and try to get through to

0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:09.360
<v Speaker 5>that person and let that person be the liaison or whatever,

0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.160
<v Speaker 5>maybe you can, you know, get a better working relationship

0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:12.760
<v Speaker 5>with your client.

0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:16.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, Aaron took the time, Aaron justin to you.

0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:20.080
<v Speaker 5>They took the time to explain the process going forward

0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:22.399
<v Speaker 5>when Aaron first came on my case, when we first

0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:25.239
<v Speaker 5>met each other, and it was very effective. I don't

0:42:25.280 --> 0:42:28.040
<v Speaker 5>know what other attorneys do with their clients, but Aaron

0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:31.879
<v Speaker 5>took the necessary time literally explain what to expect going

0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:36.200
<v Speaker 5>forward and to relate the same information to my family

0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:40.760
<v Speaker 5>through a liaison, which we chose to be my sister Debbie,

0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:44.879
<v Speaker 5>who has been amazing in this process as well as

0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:50.120
<v Speaker 5>keeping me straight when I give Aaron problems and have

0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:53.239
<v Speaker 5>phone calls and stuff, So it's a whole village. Like

0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:56.759
<v Speaker 5>like Aaron just mentioned, on both sides, it's just it

0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:57.480
<v Speaker 5>takes a village.

0:42:57.480 --> 0:42:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Man.

0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:06.160
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:08.560
<v Speaker 3>to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:11.560
<v Speaker 3>week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor

0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:17.760
<v Speaker 3>Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive

0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:21.439
<v Speaker 3>producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn. The music

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 3>in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:27.160
<v Speaker 3>composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all

0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:30.840
<v Speaker 3>social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:34.200
<v Speaker 3>You can also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm.

0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 3>Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:39.759
<v Speaker 3>and association with Signal Company Number one