Speaker 1: It was sort of cult like. Honestly, when I was
Speaker 1: in the middle of it, I was absolutely deranged.
Speaker 2: As regular listeners will know, midnight chats can be about anything,
Speaker 2: which is good. Because tonight's episode is about demonic chihuahua's,
Speaker 2: the joys of humping the wall, and the enduring appeal
Speaker 2: of Alanis Morrissette. That's the kind of entertaining pick and
Speaker 2: mix of a conversation that you only get with a
Speaker 2: guest like Mike Hadrias, better known as Perfume Genius. I'm
Speaker 2: Greg by the way, good evening, Thank you for joining me. Welcome.
Speaker 2: The chat that you're about to hear is pretty fresh.
Speaker 2: Recorded last week, so mid November twenty twenty, Mike was
Speaker 2: at home in Los Angeles, California. I was envious of
Speaker 2: the warm sunshine streaming in through his apartment window while
Speaker 2: we chatted. His dog, Wander was playing with her favorite
Speaker 2: chew toy in the background. Lots to get into, not
Speaker 2: least some conversation about the release of Perfume Genius's fifth album,
Speaker 2: the gloriously titled Set My Heart on Fire Immediately, which
Speaker 2: came out back in May. A strange time might admit
Speaker 2: to release a record a couple of months into the
Speaker 2: COVID nineteen pandemic and quarantine and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2: We get a bit into that, but recently he's been
Speaker 2: trying to make the best of the situation, coming up
Speaker 2: with some imaginative solutions for his live performances on some
Speaker 2: of the huge US late night talk shows. We also
Speaker 2: chat a bit about the dance project he was involved
Speaker 2: with last year. If you don't catch that in the conversation,
Speaker 2: it was called the Sun Still Burns Here. Also, it's
Speaker 2: been ten years since his debut album Learning, so some
Speaker 2: reflections on that and his favorite place where his music
Speaker 2: has been used in a movie soundtrack, because it has
Speaker 2: been loads and there's a certain drama to perfume genius
Speaker 2: stuff that just seems to lend itself to that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. So naturally, as always, I've put some links
Speaker 2: to the stuff we reference in the episode descript that
Speaker 2: will be below wherever you're listening to this, and it
Speaker 2: includes the thread about the one eyed dog, and that
Speaker 2: will make sense in a minute. Just finally, this is
Speaker 2: the penultimate episode of the run of Midnight Chats. I'll
Speaker 2: be back next week with the final one of series ten.
Speaker 2: All our guests have been great this time round, but
Speaker 2: we've got a really good one lined up for we
Speaker 2: take a break for Christmas. So as always, if you
Speaker 2: are a first time listener, or maybe you've been tuning
Speaker 2: in for ages, please do rate the podcast, leave a review,
Speaker 2: or tell a friend. It all helps spread the word.
Speaker 2: But until then, this is episode one hundred and two
Speaker 2: of Midnight Chats in the Great Company of Perfume Genius.
Speaker 2: Can I start by asking you about chuahwas, because we've
Speaker 2: all had a tough year and you've got to take
Speaker 2: the sort of smiles where you can get them. On
Speaker 2: the other day, on Twitter, you asked your followers to
Speaker 2: send you photos of their Chiuawa dogs and you'd pair
Speaker 2: them with the song. People were sending you all sorts
Speaker 2: of amazing photos of dogs and you were pairing them
Speaker 2: with Elliott Smith songs and something I.
Speaker 1: Know I loved. Because there are so many, there's so
Speaker 1: many submissions, I couldn't get to.
Speaker 2: All of them who knew that you were.
Speaker 1: I felt also felt bad too, because people that were
Speaker 1: sending me like chiuaua memes were much easier for me
Speaker 1: to pair with the song than just sort of like
Speaker 1: a canted shot of somebody's small dog, just like on
Speaker 1: a couch. So I had to like really investigate, like
Speaker 1: I don't know the things around the chihuahua, and then
Speaker 1: like try to like look in its eyes and see
Speaker 1: if they could glean any sort of vibe from it
Speaker 1: for the song. But if they send me like a
Speaker 1: chiuaha with a knife, like I'm it's pretty easy for
Speaker 1: me to figure out which song or which genre.
Speaker 2: Maybe, I mean, who knew that chiuaas could come in
Speaker 2: such varieties as well?
Speaker 1: Did you?
Speaker 2: Did you have any I knew that? Did you? Did
Speaker 2: you are? You're kind of quite familiar with the all
Speaker 2: the different kinds of chiuaha.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure for an apple head chiuaha. Like, I
Speaker 1: don't judge any chihuahas, he love them all, but I
Speaker 1: do prefer an apple head. That's just I had shape. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that shape of hed.
Speaker 2: There was one there was a chihuahua with one eye,
Speaker 2: and you said that you paid it with a Robert
Speaker 2: Wyatt song. I think.
Speaker 1: That might have been my favorite. Yeah, I was wondering
Speaker 1: if anybody could feel that like connection to me. Wait,
Speaker 1: he doesn't he has two eyes, doesn't he?
Speaker 2: Oh? I thought I thought it was a one eyed chiuaa.
Speaker 2: I could be wrong. I could be wrong, you.
Speaker 1: Know, it does er Wyatt had to im sorry, I
Speaker 1: think so we can edit it out if if it's yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: I don't want to wish you.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure he has too. But it was that
Speaker 1: wasn't the connector.
Speaker 2: But yeah, what else was on there? There was some
Speaker 2: some particularly angry looking chu hours on there, and some
Speaker 2: ones with sort of like demonic looking eyes as well.
Speaker 1: I noticed there was a lot of like red eyed
Speaker 1: chiuhahas chiuaas with syringes and knives, and yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's why I like them though, because they're sort of
Speaker 1: deranged in whatever direction they're going, whether they're like joyful
Speaker 1: or satanic. It's like it's this specific kind of chaotic
Speaker 1: wildness to it and abandoned. That's why they're so like savage,
Speaker 1: you know, but they're also very sweet. Do you have
Speaker 1: to like those things existing in the same small thing?
Speaker 2: Have you got a chiuaa?
Speaker 1: I do? Yeah? What's your ord to you? Oh?
Speaker 2: In a sunny spot? Brilliant for Wanda wonder, fantastic for listeners.
Speaker 2: Mike's Mike's Jiuawa is looking very comfortable on the on
Speaker 2: the floor in a in a beautiful sunny spot in
Speaker 2: the morning in Los Angeles, living the life. To be honest,
Speaker 2: I think that looks like a good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Honestly though, I feel like it's a
Speaker 1: it's like a coded message to me because I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to take her out for a walk. So she's just
Speaker 1: in the light of like the outside, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, like trying to guilt me into how much
Speaker 1: she wants to actually be out there.
Speaker 2: What kind of personality is one the guy?
Speaker 1: She's not very obedient, She's needy, but not like whiny,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. She more just like looks
Speaker 1: at you and will kind of glare at you. She
Speaker 1: doesn't like beg but she does like energetically. You know.
Speaker 1: When we got her, she was very shy, very sickly,
Speaker 1: and very kind of meek. And then over the years
Speaker 1: she got very bitchy, you know, But I love that.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I have this whole like I'm scared
Speaker 1: of talking about her because I kind of thought about
Speaker 1: her life story and like what her story would be
Speaker 1: the other day and it was very close to mine.
Speaker 1: So I realized that I'm like fully projecting. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you know, that's why she's like that,
Speaker 1: she just went through a lot and now she's sick
Speaker 1: of taking shit and blah blah blah. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh god, that's like exactly what how I think about myself.
Speaker 1: So I'm asn't in talking about her at all. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I feel like I get too into it, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and then I feel like I'm in like an indie
Speaker 1: movie about like some I don't know, somebody talking too
Speaker 1: much about their dog and everybody's like rolling their rise
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: So away from smooth Oaks, then how are things at
Speaker 2: the moment? What does your average day at the moment
Speaker 2: that like.
Speaker 1: Oh god, I'm doing okay. No, I've been all over
Speaker 1: the place. You know, there's a lot going on externally.
Speaker 1: Internally there's a lot of room too for me to think.
Speaker 1: And I'm lucky enough that I can am able to
Speaker 1: stay home. But it also kind of makes me cannibalize
Speaker 1: myself in a lot of ways, Like if I don't
Speaker 1: have somewhere for my energy your brain to go, then
Speaker 1: I just sort of focus it inward in a bad way.
Speaker 1: And I'm really bad at creating good things to do.
Speaker 1: You know, if I don't have like a routine, then
Speaker 1: I just kind of sit there and like think, sometimes
Speaker 1: that's really fun and sometimes it's really not. It's usually
Speaker 1: both of those things in equal measure. Like it's been
Speaker 1: half the day like laughing and then half the day
Speaker 1: like spinning out. So that's my routine.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, in the UK at the moment, we're in
Speaker 2: a second total lockdown. So right, I don't know what
Speaker 2: situation there is in LA, but it's no meeting with
Speaker 2: other people that aren't in your household, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 2: so pretty stringent stuff. And everybody's freaking out about Christmas
Speaker 2: because they're you know, they don't know whether they can
Speaker 2: go and meet their families for Christmas and things like that.
Speaker 2: So it does feel like a moment where of real
Speaker 2: sort of high anxiety for people. It's that space where
Speaker 2: the space of the unknown where you just don't know
Speaker 2: what's going on. So it is Difficultyeah, it is difficult.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you kind of still manage to
Speaker 2: do day to day that helps? As in you know,
Speaker 2: do you still you mentioned there that not having a
Speaker 2: routine can be difficult. Do you still manage to kind
Speaker 2: of do and things every day you guys for a
Speaker 2: walk or anything like that that just keeps you so grounded?
Speaker 1: I do. I mean I exercise pretty regularly, which is
Speaker 1: very new for me. That's only the last couple well
Speaker 1: maybe even just one year that I've been doing that,
Speaker 1: And the only reason that it's become a habit is
Speaker 1: because it truly makes me feel better, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Like I've always thought that I'd be motivated
Speaker 1: about vanity or just wanting to like get in shape
Speaker 1: for some to look better anything, But that's never motivated
Speaker 1: me at all. But once I started exercising and feeling
Speaker 1: like more, I don't know, it almost like gives me
Speaker 1: more access to to myself, to my body, to being
Speaker 1: present in a way, or I don't know, it just
Speaker 1: sort of smooths it gives you access to my more
Speaker 1: access to my life, and then also smooths it a
Speaker 1: little bit. It just sort of like it's almost like
Speaker 1: anti inflammatory for the spirit. So I tried to do that,
Speaker 1: but it's so counterintuitive a lot. You know, like if
Speaker 1: you're feeling down, it does not feel like the thing
Speaker 1: that you are supposed to do to get up, but
Speaker 1: after you like do it enough and realize that it
Speaker 1: actually works, like it's a little better. It's very strange.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just old, and so I have
Speaker 1: a long history of like depressive time periods, and then
Speaker 1: I have some history of like healthy practices and stuff,
Speaker 1: so they're just all kind of mixed together now, Like
Speaker 1: it's not when I was younger. I feel like whenever
Speaker 1: something would happen to me, I was just fully in it,
Speaker 1: you know what, even like, oh my god, the world is,
Speaker 1: you know, everything's horrible, and I was just fully in it.
Speaker 1: And I can't. I don't really do that as much
Speaker 1: anymore because I have so much history of things getting
Speaker 1: better and or looking back on it and realizing that
Speaker 1: I had completely lost perspective, you know, Like I have
Speaker 1: a lot of history of some healthy practices now, so
Speaker 1: they're just all kind of mixed together. It's kind of
Speaker 1: it's very chaotic because you can you end up acting
Speaker 1: from your anxiety, but knowing you're doing it. You know,
Speaker 1: like I have this like awareness of how I'm acting.
Speaker 2: Definitely, when something like the pandemic comes along and it changes,
Speaker 2: you're forced to change your behaviors. Some of those things
Speaker 2: that are your basics that you then can't do. So,
Speaker 2: like you're talking there about exercise, same for me, like
Speaker 2: getting out and like just some of the basics of
Speaker 2: having like a decent night sleep, going for a run
Speaker 2: each day or something like that. They seem like such
Speaker 2: simple things, but then when you can't do them, it
Speaker 2: feels like you're sort of untethered and you're suddenly just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't feel those are my things that I do,
Speaker 2: my sort of pillars of how I keep my mind attached.
Speaker 2: I think there's definite truth in that for sure.
Speaker 1: While so you have to be soft on yourself when
Speaker 1: you're not doing any of those things and when you're
Speaker 1: completely giving in to whatever like immediate comforts that are
Speaker 1: probably not going to pan out very well, you know,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, just trying to be soft with
Speaker 1: yourself in general, and that like makes it more room
Speaker 1: for you to actually take care of yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: which also is counterintuitive to me because I feel like
Speaker 1: I can shame and guilt myself into doing things, but
Speaker 1: it's never really worked.
Speaker 2: In terms of like if you go back to the springtime,
Speaker 2: so February March, when obviously COVID nineteen sort of entered
Speaker 2: all of our lives and changed things. You were on
Speaker 2: the verge of you started releasing music from the new album,
Speaker 2: and you were almost on the sort of beginnings of
Speaker 2: the promotional trail, something that you were probably quite familiar
Speaker 2: with because obviously you released four albums before that. So yeah,
Speaker 2: did it feel like the sort of ground was shifting
Speaker 2: beneath your feet a little bit? Because you knew what
Speaker 2: it takes to go out there and promote an album,
Speaker 2: and then suddenly it's like, I'm promoting an album in
Speaker 2: a very different time now. So what was that experience?
Speaker 1: Like, I mean, it was wild because I kind of
Speaker 1: gear up for that whole experience. It's like a year
Speaker 1: and a half of my life, like touring, doing press,
Speaker 1: you know, like after the record is done, then the
Speaker 1: whole next year and a half is this really outward
Speaker 1: facing energy of like promoting and playing and singing and
Speaker 1: talking about it. So I kind of have to None
Speaker 1: of that ever really came naturally to me, So I
Speaker 1: had to really work, you know, and a lot of
Speaker 1: things are second nature now. That made me uncomfortable in
Speaker 1: the beginning, but it's still this very like outward outside energy.
Speaker 1: But to do all that while very much being like
Speaker 1: inside my house and being you know, not seeing anybody
Speaker 1: in person, not seeing not playing shows. Everything's on zoom.
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be this thing that's like I'm trying
Speaker 1: to connect to other people or bring it to other people.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm lucky that, you know,
Speaker 1: it is, it's there, like the music itself is. You
Speaker 1: can listen to it, people can hear it, you know.
Speaker 1: And I made a couple of videos before I couldn't
Speaker 1: roll around on people where I rolled around on people,
Speaker 1: you know, And so I got a couple of those
Speaker 1: out before it was not allowed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, po rolling around on people is not allowed anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah until twenty twenty one, until there's a vaccine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dolly Partner's vaccines coming out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That was one of the more unlikely headlines that
Speaker 2: I read recently. Dolly She's like she's a superhero, isn't she.
Speaker 2: She's always there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, she don'tate so much of her money,
Speaker 1: and she's still super rich, and she looks amazing. She
Speaker 1: seems like she feels great, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But I don't know how to explain it. That is
Speaker 1: not the case for a lot of really rich famous people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, they they have their they have the acting nuts,
Speaker 1: which people are crazy, they're just crazy, which people are
Speaker 1: completely insane. They have their own specific brand of it.
Speaker 2: I mean, Elon Musk or something. Once you get to
Speaker 2: that level or Jeff Bezos or whatever, you know, you
Speaker 2: don't what do you do with that amount of money?
Speaker 2: Then you you can't help but lose your mind to
Speaker 2: a certain extent, surely.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and there's no real reason if you're not
Speaker 1: nice to care about anyone else anymore. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: because everything's said up for you just to kind of
Speaker 1: do and get whatever you want, So why should you
Speaker 1: look outside of that bubble? So if you're a dick,
Speaker 1: then it's just becomes this really surreal, like super villain dickness.
Speaker 2: When you did come to release the album and we
Speaker 2: were living in lockdown times, let's just call them, that,
Speaker 2: was there any part of your mind that thought, maybe
Speaker 2: I will postpone the release of this or maybe maybe
Speaker 2: actually conversely, this is a really good time to put
Speaker 2: this out because people have a bit more time and
Speaker 2: maybe they're they might listen more intently to something, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that I've heard people speak about both experiences
Speaker 2: during the last six months eight months. Some people saying
Speaker 2: I've turned off music, you know, I haven't, haven't listened
Speaker 2: to it at all. Other people saying it's been my
Speaker 2: total solace like music. I've listened to more music than
Speaker 2: ever before. So what were your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I could go either way, and
Speaker 1: it's complicated. I think there are some really great elements
Speaker 1: releasing it then and some definitely some negative ones. But
Speaker 1: I mean I don't have any free of reference for it.
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and also I kind of just make
Speaker 1: it and then trust the people that I'm working with
Speaker 1: to know all that side of it, because I'm not
Speaker 1: very good at that side honestly. Like I'm good at
Speaker 1: doing interviews, but I wouldn't be able to set them up,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I don't mean I'm
Speaker 1: good at doing interviews like I'm so excellent, and I
Speaker 1: just mean like I I will do them, and I
Speaker 1: don't mind that part of my job. But I'm not
Speaker 1: like a planner or I'm not ambitious in like a
Speaker 1: business way, honestly. So I listened to the people that
Speaker 1: are taking care of that part of it, and they
Speaker 1: said that we should put it out, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 1: I mean all I did was listening to music in
Speaker 1: the beginning of Lockdown. That's all I do honestly, anyway.
Speaker 2: Was the old stuff that was resonating with you. It's
Speaker 2: something new come out that you really loved.
Speaker 1: I mean it's usually old stuff, honestly. But there were
Speaker 1: a couple records in the beginning of Quarantine. Alice Bowman
Speaker 1: put a record out, and I was listening to her
Speaker 1: album a lot in the beginning of Quarantine. It was very,
Speaker 1: very comforting to me. I love her voice. I love
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really familiar elements to it, and
Speaker 1: maybe we just have some of the same influences, so
Speaker 1: it's like really comforting to me. But it's also, you know,
Speaker 1: something new. I like those things existing. At the same time,
Speaker 1: Westerman put an album out. I really liked the album.
Speaker 1: He probably thinks I'm obsessed with them because they talk
Speaker 1: about them a lot. I really, but I don't listen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I don't listen to I don't honestly listen to
Speaker 1: a lot of new music. So if I do like something,
Speaker 1: then then I'm going to bring it up, and a
Speaker 1: lot of times people don't know about good music, even
Speaker 1: though there's a lot of ways to find out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or maybe I want them to like what I like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like I like this, and
Speaker 1: so this should be important to you. Yeah. I have
Speaker 1: a little bit of that energy for sure. Honestly wish
Speaker 1: it didn't like us to watch this movie, like forcing
Speaker 1: people to watch a movie that I think is good
Speaker 1: because they must experience it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely do that too. I definitely do that too.
Speaker 2: You mentioned there that like normally when you'd put an
Speaker 2: album out, you'd go and do Yeah, you'd go and
Speaker 2: perform it for four people, you'd go on you'd go
Speaker 2: on tour, you'd go and do TV appearances, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And you have done some of the TV stuff. So
Speaker 2: what was the experience like of going out You went
Speaker 2: out to Joshua Tree to record a performance for the
Speaker 2: Jimmy Kimmel Live Show. What was that like? Because I
Speaker 2: loved watching the videos. I thought they were great.
Speaker 1: Essentially, we've've all just been home the band, We've all
Speaker 1: just been home, and then suddenly we're playing and singing.
Speaker 1: You know, we're not like in a van. We're not
Speaker 1: we don't have this like awareness of people or all
Speaker 1: the stuff that usually gears you up for a performance.
Speaker 1: So I tried to pick venues or situations that felt
Speaker 1: like eventful so that it kind of it provided some
Speaker 1: contexts for that feeling and if it wasn't the usual thing,
Speaker 1: you know, so having this playing outside and that and
Speaker 1: the sunset and Joashua Tree and having it be kind
Speaker 1: of a destination. We all to drive a couple hours
Speaker 1: to get there, and I kind of had that feeling
Speaker 1: like we're about to do something and kind of helped
Speaker 1: you gear up for it. And we did a live
Speaker 1: stream and I specifically picked an old theater that I
Speaker 1: thought would even if no one was there, that it
Speaker 1: would give energy, you know, like that in itself would
Speaker 1: be like helpful to the energy, not distracting, just make
Speaker 1: it feel more creepy or haunted or something that you
Speaker 1: can you can utilize.
Speaker 2: Did you play it to an empty studio? On Fallon
Speaker 2: as well?
Speaker 1: Which one was the foul?
Speaker 2: And then Jimmy Fallon, maybe did you do that one?
Speaker 1: Because oh yeah, no no, and that one that was
Speaker 1: very much just like in a venue that was empty,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And like I kind of
Speaker 1: liked that all the lights were on, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: try to make it look all moody, like we're playing
Speaker 1: a show and not I showed the empty theater. I
Speaker 1: showed them almost there, I think at the end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's still kind of novel in a way,
Speaker 1: like I can still get off on it if I'm
Speaker 1: aligning right. I'm sure I will definitely get sick of
Speaker 1: that every single time. It's so surprising how easily I
Speaker 1: click in to just okay, like I'm singing, I'm dancing,
Speaker 1: I'm moving, I just kind of it's like in my body,
Speaker 1: and it's so satisfying. I forget how much I miss it.
Speaker 1: And I also forget that it's what I do now,
Speaker 1: you know, because I don't know. I don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of reminders. I don't have constant reminders anymore.
Speaker 2: You've had to adapt and do new things, like you
Speaker 2: just described going and doing the Joshua Tree thing, playing
Speaker 2: to an empty TV studio Like normally you would when
Speaker 2: you put an album out, some of the things that
Speaker 2: you do would be very familiar. You'd be doing similar
Speaker 2: things each time. So is there a little part of
Speaker 2: you that has quite enjoyed having to come up with
Speaker 2: ideas to meet the challenge of what the situation is created.
Speaker 1: Now. Yes, in the beginning it was not. I was
Speaker 1: not so grateful for that. Well, because I had a
Speaker 1: lot of ideas before all this of what my show
Speaker 1: was going to be like, and I was working with
Speaker 1: someone to design lights and projections, you know, and I
Speaker 1: really wanted to make it. I wanted to make the
Speaker 1: show that I'd always wanted to do, but didn't really
Speaker 1: have the capability of can you hear my dogs playing
Speaker 1: with their toy?
Speaker 2: I can hear something I was thinking, is that squeaking
Speaker 2: in the background? I can hit?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. I was going to have like piles
Speaker 1: of rope that I was riding around and and I
Speaker 1: still can do that. I guess I don't. It's not
Speaker 1: like rope is gone. I can still source some rope,
Speaker 1: But I guess. I originally was trying to fit all
Speaker 1: of those ideas I had into this new like framework
Speaker 1: and these new limitations, and that wasn't really working very well.
Speaker 1: But once it started trying to think about, okay, let's
Speaker 1: scrap all that and just think of trying to think
Speaker 1: of some new ideas that actually use those limitations or
Speaker 1: like work within them instead of trying to jam stuff
Speaker 1: in there. It's gone better, you know, it just feels
Speaker 1: a little more like how it is now too Yeah,
Speaker 1: for better or for worse.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, well, I wanted to briefly jump
Speaker 2: back a bit further in time and ask you about
Speaker 2: the debut album Learning Actually, because it was released ten
Speaker 2: years ago. Now, what's the sort of overriding feeling when
Speaker 2: you look back on that body of work a decade later.
Speaker 1: I don't think I had an awareness that it was
Speaker 1: a decade later, But when I was writing my last record,
Speaker 1: I was thinking a lot about that album because I'm
Speaker 1: honestly most proud of those lyrics than any of my
Speaker 1: other records, or if it's not the lyricsist Selms, it's
Speaker 1: the way that like I thought about writing and just
Speaker 1: the practice of writing was a lot different than than
Speaker 1: it is now, and I wanted to go back to
Speaker 1: that because it was very I'm still really proud of
Speaker 1: those lyrics, you know. So I tried to write that
Speaker 1: way when I was writing this most recent record, which
Speaker 1: was something I wasn't really doing the last couple so
Speaker 1: it was more exploratory in like every direction, especially the
Speaker 1: one before this one.
Speaker 2: So was it this sort of innocence of it that
Speaker 2: you could recognize in those in those first songs. What
Speaker 2: was it about those songs that you wanted to get
Speaker 2: back to?
Speaker 1: Was they were more storyline? They were more like slice
Speaker 1: of life y even if I wasn't, you know, specifically
Speaker 1: saying the story like he went to the store or
Speaker 1: something there was a store in it, or like that
Speaker 1: someone's name or there are more world world nouns and
Speaker 1: things that kind of it was, I guess more like
Speaker 1: showing instead of telling a little bit. And though as
Speaker 1: I went on and the songs became more like telling
Speaker 1: people how I'm feeling or trying to figure out, honestly,
Speaker 1: a lot of it was just ended up being about
Speaker 1: me more specifically, not that they all weren't always about me,
Speaker 1: but I used stories to kind of in scenes to
Speaker 1: paint the picture of how I'm feeling, And in a
Speaker 1: way it was more accurate than me trying to actually
Speaker 1: just straight up say it, because I've never been very
Speaker 1: good at that. That's the whole reason I make songs
Speaker 1: to begin with this, because I have no idea how
Speaker 1: to talk about how I'm feeling most of the time,
Speaker 1: but I definitely know I am feeling a lot or
Speaker 1: too much or whatever, and so I make these little
Speaker 1: scenes or portals or something to get it out. The
Speaker 1: record before this, I think just the way it sounded
Speaker 1: and the way the world I kind of built sonically,
Speaker 1: that was doing it, That was communicating it for me,
Speaker 1: you know, And the lyrics were too. But in the
Speaker 1: very very beginning, it was essentially only the lyrics, you know,
Speaker 1: that was like the main thing, and then everything else
Speaker 1: was underneath. And then it kind of slowly moved to
Speaker 1: the music and the lyrics underneath, Like I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk shit about myself. This feels like I'm talking
Speaker 1: shit about myself. But now I feel like there the
Speaker 1: last record felt like a harmony of both of those things.
Speaker 1: I felt like I was still being experimental and thinking
Speaker 1: about songs in sounds and writing, you know, when before
Speaker 1: I used to feel like I was doing one or
Speaker 1: the other. You know, I started singing in Gibberish so
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think about the words and he would only
Speaker 1: be guided by the sound and have that be communicating,
Speaker 1: you know. But then it kind of came hard to
Speaker 1: fit lyrics into the gibberish. Afterwards, I kind of found
Speaker 1: a way to do that, I mean, because I've been
Speaker 1: doing it for ten years. But that first record was
Speaker 1: also the first songs I'd ever written, so now I'm
Speaker 1: kind of learning how to do it all as I go.
Speaker 2: In terms of actually getting back in touch with the
Speaker 2: essence of those lyrics that you liked so much from
Speaker 2: that debut album, did you physically go and put the
Speaker 2: record on to remind yourself of that or do you
Speaker 2: didn't need to because presumably the majority of the time
Speaker 2: you're only revisiting those songs when you perform them live now,
Speaker 2: like ten years later.
Speaker 1: It's more just thinking about that time and what writing
Speaker 1: felt like it meant to me then in a way
Speaker 1: that was different than it does now, And a lot
Speaker 1: of that probably had to do with that. I I
Speaker 1: didn't know anybody was going to listen or hear it,
Speaker 1: you know, so I didn't have to carry that idea
Speaker 1: even though I like that, you know. And it also
Speaker 1: that has been a big giant fuel to me too.
Speaker 1: So it's just finding a way to bring all those
Speaker 1: things together and not have them be conflicting.
Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about music fandom,
Speaker 2: because we've already mentioned some albums and some artists that
Speaker 2: you've really enjoyed the work of this year. But going
Speaker 2: back a bit further in terms of the artists or
Speaker 2: some artists that you really connected with specifically, people like
Speaker 2: Alanis Morissette and Liz Fair and Cyndi Lauper, all names
Speaker 2: that you've name checked a lot over the years. What
Speaker 2: was it about those artists that really spoke to you
Speaker 2: so much when you were first discovering music or or
Speaker 2: really discovering a passion for music.
Speaker 1: Well, I got Liz Fair. I think I got Whip
Speaker 1: Smart first, which is your second record, maybe sixth grade,
Speaker 1: So what is that like twelve thirteen, and before then
Speaker 1: I was mainly listening to pop music. But I don't
Speaker 1: I think I stall I've told this story before. I
Speaker 1: feel like she's another person thing. So I'm obsessed with
Speaker 1: their But that's okay. It's because it's true. It's because
Speaker 1: it's true. So and I'm not a liar. But I
Speaker 1: stole a spin magazine from the grocery store and she
Speaker 1: was in there and they were talking about her stage
Speaker 1: fright and her lyrics, you know, and I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: that sounds really I don't know. Something about it was
Speaker 1: very interesting to me. So I bought her CD and
Speaker 1: I had never heard anything like it before, and I
Speaker 1: had never heard someone singing about the things she was
Speaker 1: singing about in that way and without shame and without apology,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it just completely changed everything for me.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is who I want to be,
Speaker 1: this is how I want to feel, this is who
Speaker 1: I want to hang out with, you know. And I
Speaker 1: also it felt like a companion to me. And a
Speaker 1: lot of feelings that I was having that couldn't figure
Speaker 1: out are aspirational or how I wanted to feel. I
Speaker 1: had never really thought of music as doing that, and
Speaker 1: so it just changed. I just became obsessed with music
Speaker 1: and listening and I really that record, I think, is
Speaker 1: what kind of changed everything for me.
Speaker 2: One of the other autists I mentioned just there is
Speaker 2: Alonis Morissette. And then here was the onny of the
Speaker 2: other day that I realized they've made a musical about
Speaker 2: Jagged Little Pill, and it's a Broadway music really about this.
Speaker 2: It won like some Tony Awards or something the other day,
Speaker 2: and I was like, they made a musical about Jagged
Speaker 2: Little Pill. That sounds brilliant because that was that album
Speaker 2: was sort of omnipresent when I was growing up. It
Speaker 2: was you know, when you think of albums that were
Speaker 2: always playing in the car when you would for whatever
Speaker 2: reason you're going somewhere, You're like, that was the album
Speaker 2: that was always on. And Yeah, and I was going
Speaker 2: to ask you whether you'd heard about the music or
Speaker 2: even seen it. I think it only opened last year.
Speaker 2: It's probably shut now because of the COVID.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. Well, that's what was amazing about
Speaker 1: that record is that it had some nasty ideas, but
Speaker 1: like your mom was to car, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So it's just like there's something really powerful about that
Speaker 1: to like hear like a woman singing about those things
Speaker 1: and having that be like widely loved and feeling that
Speaker 1: when I was young, it was like was inspiring.
Speaker 2: Your experience of working with different disciplines. Last year you
Speaker 2: did The Sun Still Burns Here, which was a project
Speaker 2: well you probably better for you to describe it rather
Speaker 2: than me, but it was it was a move outside
Speaker 2: of just the music making that you've been doing the
Speaker 2: last couple of years. How was that experience. What did
Speaker 2: you take away from it and is it something you
Speaker 2: want to want to pursue further?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so much went into that, so much,
Speaker 1: like I took so much from it. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like talking about my dog. I feel like I'm not.
Speaker 1: It was sort of cult like. Honestly, it felt very
Speaker 1: culty like. When I was in the middle of it,
Speaker 1: I was absolutely deranged and the things that I was
Speaker 1: talking about are crazy. I influenced my record, influenced a
Speaker 1: lot about how I was thinking about where I was
Speaker 1: in my life and who I love and what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: It like really rocked me, but I didn't know what. Essentially,
Speaker 1: in the beginning, it was me and Kate, the choreographer.
Speaker 1: She reached out and we wanted to make a dance
Speaker 1: piece that had live music in it, where those two
Speaker 1: things weren't super disconnected. It wasn't just a band playing
Speaker 1: on one side and then a dance happening on the other.
Speaker 1: I wanted to dance and if they wanted to sing,
Speaker 1: which that didn't end up happening as much, but have
Speaker 1: those things be mixed together. I also wanted to go
Speaker 1: about writing the music for like an hour long dance
Speaker 1: piece and not having it just be like textual ambient music.
Speaker 1: I wanted it almost more like an opera. I wanted
Speaker 1: them to be songs, you know, and the songs are
Speaker 1: like ten minutes long and longer and more experimental. But
Speaker 1: I still tried to make it something that if you
Speaker 1: took it away from the dance, you would want to
Speaker 1: listen to it, but also having it not be really
Speaker 1: able to exist without the dance. But it was just
Speaker 1: a whole new way of writing. And then it was
Speaker 1: a very different way of performing because I was with
Speaker 1: a lot of other people in a very different way.
Speaker 1: Like with the band, I'm usually the one throwing myself
Speaker 1: around everywhere and screaming and you know, homping the floor
Speaker 1: and everything. And now I'm like humping the floor with
Speaker 1: like seven other people that are also doing that, you know,
Speaker 1: and I would like look up and it's like whoa,
Speaker 1: They're in the exact same place as me. And even
Speaker 1: in rehearsals, like humping the floor, that's something that I
Speaker 1: was doing before I was a musician, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like getting into some weird energetic space with
Speaker 1: a wall. Not always humping. It could be something more
Speaker 1: sacred than that. Not this, I'll just you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. But I was getting to weird places physically, energetically,
Speaker 1: and then in rehearsals, like I would be looking out
Speaker 1: the window crying at a car for no reason, like
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at a car crying, and I would
Speaker 1: look over and LoVa and other dancers looking at the
Speaker 1: same car crying, and it's just nonsensical but very real
Speaker 1: thing meeting together. And that's what was so beautiful. It
Speaker 1: is like work and real life mixing together when they
Speaker 1: used to feel very separate.
Speaker 2: It sounds very visceral, like I had a real like
Speaker 2: physical effect as well. I mean always that means to
Speaker 2: state the obvious of the physical element of it, but
Speaker 2: like excavating loads of feelings and chemicals. Oh yeah, everything
Speaker 2: mixed in together.
Speaker 1: Very very much like that, you know, And like I
Speaker 1: feel like all I really do is sit around and
Speaker 1: think a lot about Oh I want to leave my body,
Speaker 1: I want to go to space, blah blah blah, like
Speaker 1: all this wild ship and I'm just sitting still. I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm just thinking. But then I was doing all
Speaker 1: those feelings like in movement and with people, and just
Speaker 1: like screaming into someone's like backbones, and like someone's biting
Speaker 1: my shin, and I'm like, you know, I'm like somebody's
Speaker 1: screaming at God or something. You know. It's like very
Speaker 1: exciting to me that these things were happening. I wasn't
Speaker 1: just like making a joke about it or doing some
Speaker 1: weird song in my room by myself about it. It
Speaker 1: is like I had company and I was in my
Speaker 1: actual body. I wasn't you know, I was in. I
Speaker 1: was there, Like these people are real, this room is real,
Speaker 1: and my body is real.
Speaker 2: Your music has soundtracked some iconic moments in movies and
Speaker 2: TV over the past decade, thinking of eighth Grade and
Speaker 2: Thirteen Reasons Why, and my favorite, which was stip Away
Speaker 2: used in books Smart. Are there any places where your
Speaker 2: music has been used that you've been particularly really pleased with,
Speaker 2: Just like that is perfect in terms of bringing a
Speaker 2: moment together.
Speaker 1: The book Smart was pretty perfect, like that like big
Speaker 1: coming of age moment with like a kind of a
Speaker 1: big explosion in the song. I love how I'm soundtracking
Speaker 1: either like deaths, a lot of deaths, or like teenage
Speaker 1: like coming of age things, you know, those I'm into
Speaker 1: that when any of those are captured perfectly, it's like
Speaker 1: really not like a death. I don't feel like a
Speaker 1: death capture profectly. It just means like a really like
Speaker 1: heavy moment, and I don't know, it's cathartic to me.
Speaker 1: That's like why I make all of the songs, so
Speaker 1: if I feel like I can help that seen be
Speaker 1: more of that in a movie way. Well, those are
Speaker 1: the songs you remember too, Like I feel like I
Speaker 1: remember all those when you're teenager and you watch those
Speaker 1: movies and those moments. Those are the things that you
Speaker 1: hear around with you. So I feel lucky to have
Speaker 1: that sort of place in it.
Speaker 2: It's a big one for me. ISS songs on video
Speaker 2: games as well, really like place a certain time for me,
Speaker 2: like because video game soundtracks and stuff. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't play a lot of video games now, but I
Speaker 2: did when I was younger, and so the songs, some
Speaker 2: songs are still ready attached to that for me in
Speaker 2: the same way that TV movie song.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it, but one of my songs on
Speaker 1: the last record, somebody said that it sounded a lot
Speaker 1: like the Final Fantasy theme song, And I listen to
Speaker 1: it and it's almost like the harp kind of the
Speaker 1: heart part in the very beginning of my song Leave
Speaker 1: is very very close to it, and I had been
Speaker 1: playing a lot of final Fantasy around when I was
Speaker 1: making that record. I didn't even intend to.
Speaker 2: Do it, just absorbed it.
Speaker 1: I mean that song that's specific little line. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a heart, it's some generated instrument, but it's
Speaker 1: so like classic I feel like I can borrow from
Speaker 1: a little bit. I feel that way about if you're
Speaker 1: gonna be influenced by things, it should be like classic
Speaker 1: things at least twenty years ago, at least twenty yeah,
Speaker 1: or something that's like an immediate classic. It's very strange
Speaker 1: to me when people are writing songs that are clearly
Speaker 1: influenced by something like six months ago, like just.
Speaker 2: Have just wait a little bit you can hear on
Speaker 2: the radio. And so that's why it sounds jarring, I think,
Speaker 2: because it just feels like, yeah, you'll you're borrowing ideas
Speaker 2: from two minutes ago, and that's why it sounds nope, no,
Speaker 2: great again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a conic though, when I think about it,
Speaker 1: like everybody kind of has the same All American singers
Speaker 1: have the same sort of like faux English accent too
Speaker 1: that they're all singing in. Yeah, I've never really missed.
Speaker 1: It's not even an English accent. I don't even know
Speaker 1: what you call it. It's just spec I think it's
Speaker 1: from a cheering like a lot of the guys have
Speaker 1: this kind of vaguely cheer any sound to the what
Speaker 1: they're from, like Idaho, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose. The final thing I wanted to ask
Speaker 2: you about was like, every time you've made a new album,
Speaker 2: you've you've come to sort of inhabit a new world
Speaker 2: visually stylistically, and everything feels so coherent. What's going around
Speaker 2: your mind now, Like has it been a creative time
Speaker 2: recently or not at all? And what might happen next
Speaker 2: in terms of where you want to take things, And
Speaker 2: you've got any thoughts about what you might want to
Speaker 2: do next year and things like that.
Speaker 1: I think it's starting to happen. I honestly felt it
Speaker 1: felt like a like nothingness for a while, but I
Speaker 1: think things were happening in the background. I'm definitely going
Speaker 1: to have a lot to respond to and definitely have
Speaker 1: a lot that I haven't processed that I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to so I can start of feel happening, and
Speaker 1: I want to be able to present the music for
Speaker 1: the dance in it. I want to share that music,
Speaker 1: and I want to present it in some sort of way,
Speaker 1: like when I'm not really able to tour that show
Speaker 1: at the moment and I'm not able to dance. So
Speaker 1: I've been working on something that can still have all
Speaker 1: those elements and be shareable, have it fit in to
Speaker 1: this moment. So we'll see how that goes. Future future thinking.
Speaker 1: It's very futuristic my idea. Yeah, so we'll see.
Speaker 2: Great. Well, I look forward to what you're going to
Speaker 2: come up with. Listen, thank you, Mike. I should probably
Speaker 2: let you go and move the dog.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I gotta walk Wanda anyway. Good night,