WEBVTT - Ep 102: Perfume Genius

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<v Speaker 1>It was sort of cult like. Honestly, when I was

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of it, I was absolutely deranged.

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<v Speaker 2>As regular listeners will know, midnight chats can be about anything,

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<v Speaker 2>which is good. Because tonight's episode is about demonic chihuahua's,

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<v Speaker 2>the joys of humping the wall, and the enduring appeal

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<v Speaker 2>of Alanis Morrissette. That's the kind of entertaining pick and

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<v Speaker 2>mix of a conversation that you only get with a

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<v Speaker 2>guest like Mike Hadrias, better known as Perfume Genius. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Greg by the way, good evening, Thank you for joining me. Welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>The chat that you're about to hear is pretty fresh.

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<v Speaker 2>Recorded last week, so mid November twenty twenty, Mike was

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<v Speaker 2>at home in Los Angeles, California. I was envious of

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<v Speaker 2>the warm sunshine streaming in through his apartment window while

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<v Speaker 2>we chatted. His dog, Wander was playing with her favorite

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<v Speaker 2>chew toy in the background. Lots to get into, not

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<v Speaker 2>least some conversation about the release of Perfume Genius's fifth album,

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<v Speaker 2>the gloriously titled Set My Heart on Fire Immediately, which

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<v Speaker 2>came out back in May. A strange time might admit

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<v Speaker 2>to release a record a couple of months into the

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<v Speaker 2>COVID nineteen pandemic and quarantine and all the rest of it.

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<v Speaker 2>We get a bit into that, but recently he's been

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<v Speaker 2>trying to make the best of the situation, coming up

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<v Speaker 2>with some imaginative solutions for his live performances on some

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<v Speaker 2>of the huge US late night talk shows. We also

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<v Speaker 2>chat a bit about the dance project he was involved

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<v Speaker 2>with last year. If you don't catch that in the conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>it was called the Sun Still Burns Here. Also, it's

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<v Speaker 2>been ten years since his debut album Learning, so some

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<v Speaker 2>reflections on that and his favorite place where his music

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<v Speaker 2>has been used in a movie soundtrack, because it has

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<v Speaker 2>been loads and there's a certain drama to perfume genius

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that just seems to lend itself to that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. So naturally, as always, I've put some links

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<v Speaker 2>to the stuff we reference in the episode descript that

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<v Speaker 2>will be below wherever you're listening to this, and it

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<v Speaker 2>includes the thread about the one eyed dog, and that

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<v Speaker 2>will make sense in a minute. Just finally, this is

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<v Speaker 2>the penultimate episode of the run of Midnight Chats. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>be back next week with the final one of series ten.

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<v Speaker 2>All our guests have been great this time round, but

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<v Speaker 2>we've got a really good one lined up for we

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<v Speaker 2>take a break for Christmas. So as always, if you

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<v Speaker 2>are a first time listener, or maybe you've been tuning

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<v Speaker 2>in for ages, please do rate the podcast, leave a review,

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<v Speaker 2>or tell a friend. It all helps spread the word.

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<v Speaker 2>But until then, this is episode one hundred and two

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<v Speaker 2>of Midnight Chats in the Great Company of Perfume Genius.

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<v Speaker 2>Can I start by asking you about chuahwas, because we've

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<v Speaker 2>all had a tough year and you've got to take

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of smiles where you can get them. On

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<v Speaker 2>the other day, on Twitter, you asked your followers to

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<v Speaker 2>send you photos of their Chiuawa dogs and you'd pair

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<v Speaker 2>them with the song. People were sending you all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of amazing photos of dogs and you were pairing them

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<v Speaker 2>with Elliott Smith songs and something I.

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<v Speaker 1>Know I loved. Because there are so many, there's so

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<v Speaker 1>many submissions, I couldn't get to.

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<v Speaker 2>All of them who knew that you were.

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<v Speaker 1>I felt also felt bad too, because people that were

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<v Speaker 1>sending me like chiuaua memes were much easier for me

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<v Speaker 1>to pair with the song than just sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>a canted shot of somebody's small dog, just like on

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<v Speaker 1>a couch. So I had to like really investigate, like

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know the things around the chihuahua, and then

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<v Speaker 1>like try to like look in its eyes and see

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<v Speaker 1>if they could glean any sort of vibe from it

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<v Speaker 1>for the song. But if they send me like a

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<v Speaker 1>chiuaha with a knife, like I'm it's pretty easy for

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<v Speaker 1>me to figure out which song or which genre.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe, I mean, who knew that chiuaas could come in

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<v Speaker 2>such varieties as well?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you have any I knew that? Did you? Did

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<v Speaker 2>you are? You're kind of quite familiar with the all

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<v Speaker 2>the different kinds of chiuaha.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure for an apple head chiuaha. Like, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't judge any chihuahas, he love them all, but I

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<v Speaker 1>do prefer an apple head. That's just I had shape. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I like that shape of hed.

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<v Speaker 2>There was one there was a chihuahua with one eye,

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<v Speaker 2>and you said that you paid it with a Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Wyatt song. I think.

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<v Speaker 1>That might have been my favorite. Yeah, I was wondering

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<v Speaker 1>if anybody could feel that like connection to me. Wait,

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<v Speaker 1>he doesn't he has two eyes, doesn't he?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I thought I thought it was a one eyed chiuaa.

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<v Speaker 2>I could be wrong. I could be wrong, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, it does er Wyatt had to im sorry, I

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<v Speaker 1>think so we can edit it out if if it's yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to wish you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty sure he has too. But it was that

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't the connector.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, what else was on there? There was some

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<v Speaker 2>some particularly angry looking chu hours on there, and some

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<v Speaker 2>ones with sort of like demonic looking eyes as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I noticed there was a lot of like red eyed

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<v Speaker 1>chiuhahas chiuaas with syringes and knives, and yeah, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>that's why I like them though, because they're sort of

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<v Speaker 1>deranged in whatever direction they're going, whether they're like joyful

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<v Speaker 1>or satanic. It's like it's this specific kind of chaotic

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<v Speaker 1>wildness to it and abandoned. That's why they're so like savage,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, but they're also very sweet. Do you have

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<v Speaker 1>to like those things existing in the same small thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Have you got a chiuaa?

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<v Speaker 1>I do? Yeah? What's your ord to you? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>In a sunny spot? Brilliant for Wanda wonder, fantastic for listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>Mike's Mike's Jiuawa is looking very comfortable on the on

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<v Speaker 2>the floor in a in a beautiful sunny spot in

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<v Speaker 2>the morning in Los Angeles, living the life. To be honest,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that looks like a good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. Honestly though, I feel like it's a

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<v Speaker 1>it's like a coded message to me because I'm supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to take her out for a walk. So she's just

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<v Speaker 1>in the light of like the outside, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, like trying to guilt me into how much

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<v Speaker 1>she wants to actually be out there.

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<v Speaker 2>What kind of personality is one the guy?

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<v Speaker 1>She's not very obedient, She's needy, but not like whiny,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean. She more just like looks

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<v Speaker 1>at you and will kind of glare at you. She

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't like beg but she does like energetically. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>When we got her, she was very shy, very sickly,

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<v Speaker 1>and very kind of meek. And then over the years

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<v Speaker 1>she got very bitchy, you know, But I love that.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I have this whole like I'm scared

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<v Speaker 1>of talking about her because I kind of thought about

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<v Speaker 1>her life story and like what her story would be

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<v Speaker 1>the other day and it was very close to mine.

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<v Speaker 1>So I realized that I'm like fully projecting. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, oh, you know, that's why she's like that,

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<v Speaker 1>she just went through a lot and now she's sick

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<v Speaker 1>of taking shit and blah blah blah. I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>oh god, that's like exactly what how I think about myself.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm asn't in talking about her at all. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I get too into it, yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I feel like I'm in like an indie

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<v Speaker 1>movie about like some I don't know, somebody talking too

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<v Speaker 1>much about their dog and everybody's like rolling their rise

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<v Speaker 1>or something.

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<v Speaker 2>So away from smooth Oaks, then how are things at

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<v Speaker 2>the moment? What does your average day at the moment

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<v Speaker 2>that like.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh god, I'm doing okay. No, I've been all over

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<v Speaker 1>the place. You know, there's a lot going on externally.

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<v Speaker 1>Internally there's a lot of room too for me to think.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm lucky enough that I can am able to

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<v Speaker 1>stay home. But it also kind of makes me cannibalize

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<v Speaker 1>myself in a lot of ways, Like if I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have somewhere for my energy your brain to go, then

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<v Speaker 1>I just sort of focus it inward in a bad way.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm really bad at creating good things to do.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if I don't have like a routine, then

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<v Speaker 1>I just kind of sit there and like think, sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>that's really fun and sometimes it's really not. It's usually

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<v Speaker 1>both of those things in equal measure. Like it's been

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<v Speaker 1>half the day like laughing and then half the day

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<v Speaker 1>like spinning out. So that's my routine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, in the UK at the moment, we're in

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<v Speaker 2>a second total lockdown. So right, I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>situation there is in LA, but it's no meeting with

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<v Speaker 2>other people that aren't in your household, et cetera, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 2>so pretty stringent stuff. And everybody's freaking out about Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>because they're you know, they don't know whether they can

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<v Speaker 2>go and meet their families for Christmas and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>So it does feel like a moment where of real

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<v Speaker 2>sort of high anxiety for people. It's that space where

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<v Speaker 2>the space of the unknown where you just don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on. So it is Difficultyeah, it is difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there anything that you kind of still manage to

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<v Speaker 2>do day to day that helps? As in you know,

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<v Speaker 2>do you still you mentioned there that not having a

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<v Speaker 2>routine can be difficult. Do you still manage to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of do and things every day you guys for a

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<v Speaker 2>walk or anything like that that just keeps you so grounded?

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<v Speaker 1>I do. I mean I exercise pretty regularly, which is

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<v Speaker 1>very new for me. That's only the last couple well

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<v Speaker 1>maybe even just one year that I've been doing that,

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<v Speaker 1>And the only reason that it's become a habit is

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<v Speaker 1>because it truly makes me feel better, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean. Like I've always thought that I'd be motivated

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<v Speaker 1>about vanity or just wanting to like get in shape

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<v Speaker 1>for some to look better anything, But that's never motivated

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<v Speaker 1>me at all. But once I started exercising and feeling

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<v Speaker 1>like more, I don't know, it almost like gives me

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<v Speaker 1>more access to to myself, to my body, to being

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<v Speaker 1>present in a way, or I don't know, it just

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<v Speaker 1>sort of smooths it gives you access to my more

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<v Speaker 1>access to my life, and then also smooths it a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit. It just sort of like it's almost like

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<v Speaker 1>anti inflammatory for the spirit. So I tried to do that,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's so counterintuitive a lot. You know, like if

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<v Speaker 1>you're feeling down, it does not feel like the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that you are supposed to do to get up, but

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<v Speaker 1>after you like do it enough and realize that it

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<v Speaker 1>actually works, like it's a little better. It's very strange.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm just old, and so I have

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<v Speaker 1>a long history of like depressive time periods, and then

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<v Speaker 1>I have some history of like healthy practices and stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're just all kind of mixed together now, Like

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<v Speaker 1>it's not when I was younger. I feel like whenever

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<v Speaker 1>something would happen to me, I was just fully in it,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, even like, oh my god, the world is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, everything's horrible, and I was just fully in it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I can't. I don't really do that as much

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<v Speaker 1>anymore because I have so much history of things getting

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<v Speaker 1>better and or looking back on it and realizing that

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<v Speaker 1>I had completely lost perspective, you know, Like I have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of history of some healthy practices now, so

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<v Speaker 1>they're just all kind of mixed together. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>it's very chaotic because you can you end up acting

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<v Speaker 1>from your anxiety, but knowing you're doing it. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>like I have this like awareness of how I'm acting.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely, when something like the pandemic comes along and it changes,

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<v Speaker 2>you're forced to change your behaviors. Some of those things

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<v Speaker 2>that are your basics that you then can't do. So,

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<v Speaker 2>like you're talking there about exercise, same for me, like

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<v Speaker 2>getting out and like just some of the basics of

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<v Speaker 2>having like a decent night sleep, going for a run

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<v Speaker 2>each day or something like that. They seem like such

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<v Speaker 2>simple things, but then when you can't do them, it

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<v Speaker 2>feels like you're sort of untethered and you're suddenly just like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't feel those are my things that I do,

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<v Speaker 2>my sort of pillars of how I keep my mind attached.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's definite truth in that for sure.

0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.880
<v Speaker 1>While so you have to be soft on yourself when

0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.719
<v Speaker 1>you're not doing any of those things and when you're

0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.040
<v Speaker 1>completely giving in to whatever like immediate comforts that are

0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.679
<v Speaker 1>probably not going to pan out very well, you know,

0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.040
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know, just trying to be soft with

0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.760
<v Speaker 1>yourself in general, and that like makes it more room

0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.880
<v Speaker 1>for you to actually take care of yourself, you know,

0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.559
<v Speaker 1>which also is counterintuitive to me because I feel like

0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.000
<v Speaker 1>I can shame and guilt myself into doing things, but

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.280
<v Speaker 1>it's never really worked.

0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.479
<v Speaker 2>In terms of like if you go back to the springtime,

0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.040
<v Speaker 2>so February March, when obviously COVID nineteen sort of entered

0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.319
<v Speaker 2>all of our lives and changed things. You were on

0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.280
<v Speaker 2>the verge of you started releasing music from the new album,

0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.400
<v Speaker 2>and you were almost on the sort of beginnings of

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 2>the promotional trail, something that you were probably quite familiar

0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.400
<v Speaker 2>with because obviously you released four albums before that. So yeah,

0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.079
<v Speaker 2>did it feel like the sort of ground was shifting

0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.520
<v Speaker 2>beneath your feet a little bit? Because you knew what

0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>it takes to go out there and promote an album,

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.520
<v Speaker 2>and then suddenly it's like, I'm promoting an album in

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.360
<v Speaker 2>a very different time now. So what was that experience?

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Like, I mean, it was wild because I kind of

0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.440
<v Speaker 1>gear up for that whole experience. It's like a year

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.320
<v Speaker 1>and a half of my life, like touring, doing press,

0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, like after the record is done, then the

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.400
<v Speaker 1>whole next year and a half is this really outward

0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 1>facing energy of like promoting and playing and singing and

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.800
<v Speaker 1>talking about it. So I kind of have to None

0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 1>of that ever really came naturally to me, So I

0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 1>had to really work, you know, and a lot of

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.520
<v Speaker 1>things are second nature now. That made me uncomfortable in

0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.840
<v Speaker 1>the beginning, but it's still this very like outward outside energy.

0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.160
<v Speaker 1>But to do all that while very much being like

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:21.320
<v Speaker 1>inside my house and being you know, not seeing anybody

0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 1>in person, not seeing not playing shows. Everything's on zoom.

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640
<v Speaker 1>It's supposed to be this thing that's like I'm trying

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.800
<v Speaker 1>to connect to other people or bring it to other people.

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, I'm lucky that, you know,

0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 1>it is, it's there, like the music itself is. You

0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.960
<v Speaker 1>can listen to it, people can hear it, you know.

0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.040
<v Speaker 1>And I made a couple of videos before I couldn't

0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 1>roll around on people where I rolled around on people,

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, And so I got a couple of those

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 1>out before it was not allowed.

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, po rolling around on people is not allowed anymore.

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah until twenty twenty one, until there's a vaccine.

0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Dolly Partner's vaccines coming out.

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That was one of the more unlikely headlines that

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.600
<v Speaker 2>I read recently. Dolly She's like she's a superhero, isn't she.

0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 2>She's always there.

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, she don'tate so much of her money,

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>and she's still super rich, and she looks amazing. She

0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 1>seems like she feels great, you know what I mean.

0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 1>But I don't know how to explain it. That is

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 1>not the case for a lot of really rich famous people. Yeah,

0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, they they have their they have the acting nuts,

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 1>which people are crazy, they're just crazy, which people are

0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 1>completely insane. They have their own specific brand of it.

0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Elon Musk or something. Once you get to

0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 2>that level or Jeff Bezos or whatever, you know, you

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 2>don't what do you do with that amount of money?

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Then you you can't help but lose your mind to

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:49.920
<v Speaker 2>a certain extent, surely.

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, and there's no real reason if you're not

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.560
<v Speaker 1>nice to care about anyone else anymore. Yeah, you know,

0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 1>because everything's said up for you just to kind of

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.840
<v Speaker 1>do and get whatever you want, So why should you

0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 1>look outside of that bubble? So if you're a dick,

0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.720
<v Speaker 1>then it's just becomes this really surreal, like super villain dickness.

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 2>When you did come to release the album and we

0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.000
<v Speaker 2>were living in lockdown times, let's just call them, that,

0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 2>was there any part of your mind that thought, maybe

0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I will postpone the release of this or maybe maybe

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 2>actually conversely, this is a really good time to put

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 2>this out because people have a bit more time and

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe they're they might listen more intently to something, you know,

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that I've heard people speak about both experiences

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 2>during the last six months eight months. Some people saying

0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.960
<v Speaker 2>I've turned off music, you know, I haven't, haven't listened

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 2>to it at all. Other people saying it's been my

0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.800
<v Speaker 2>total solace like music. I've listened to more music than

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.920
<v Speaker 2>ever before. So what were your thoughts on that?

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think I could go either way, and

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 1>it's complicated. I think there are some really great elements

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.040
<v Speaker 1>releasing it then and some definitely some negative ones. But

0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean I don't have any free of reference for it.

0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.680
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know, and also I kind of just make

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.640
<v Speaker 1>it and then trust the people that I'm working with

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 1>to know all that side of it, because I'm not

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.880
<v Speaker 1>very good at that side honestly. Like I'm good at

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.520
<v Speaker 1>doing interviews, but I wouldn't be able to set them up,

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.440
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean. So I don't mean I'm

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 1>good at doing interviews like I'm so excellent, and I

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 1>just mean like I I will do them, and I

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 1>don't mind that part of my job. But I'm not

0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 1>like a planner or I'm not ambitious in like a

0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>business way, honestly. So I listened to the people that

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.720
<v Speaker 1>are taking care of that part of it, and they

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>said that we should put it out, and I was like, okay.

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean all I did was listening to music in

0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of Lockdown. That's all I do honestly, anyway.

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Was the old stuff that was resonating with you. It's

0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 2>something new come out that you really loved.

0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's usually old stuff, honestly. But there were

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:58.000
<v Speaker 1>a couple records in the beginning of Quarantine. Alice Bowman

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.360
<v Speaker 1>put a record out, and I was listening to her

0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.200
<v Speaker 1>album a lot in the beginning of Quarantine. It was very,

0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.360
<v Speaker 1>very comforting to me. I love her voice. I love

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.320
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of really familiar elements to it, and

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>maybe we just have some of the same influences, so

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.359
<v Speaker 1>it's like really comforting to me. But it's also, you know,

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.920
<v Speaker 1>something new. I like those things existing. At the same time,

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Westerman put an album out. I really liked the album.

0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.000
<v Speaker 1>He probably thinks I'm obsessed with them because they talk

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.640
<v Speaker 1>about them a lot. I really, but I don't listen. Yeah,

0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.679
<v Speaker 1>well I don't listen to I don't honestly listen to

0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.120
<v Speaker 1>a lot of new music. So if I do like something,

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 1>then then I'm going to bring it up, and a

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of times people don't know about good music, even

0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:47.119
<v Speaker 1>though there's a lot of ways to find out. Yeah,

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 1>or maybe I want them to like what I like. Yeah,

0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.399
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, Like I like this, and

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.439
<v Speaker 1>so this should be important to you. Yeah. I have

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.520
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of that energy for sure. Honestly wish

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.679
<v Speaker 1>it didn't like us to watch this movie, like forcing

0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.480
<v Speaker 1>people to watch a movie that I think is good

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 1>because they must experience it.

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I definitely do that too. I definitely do that too.

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>You mentioned there that like normally when you'd put an

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.399
<v Speaker 2>album out, you'd go and do Yeah, you'd go and

0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 2>perform it for four people, you'd go on you'd go

0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.639
<v Speaker 2>on tour, you'd go and do TV appearances, et cetera.

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 2>And you have done some of the TV stuff. So

0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.359
<v Speaker 2>what was the experience like of going out You went

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.119
<v Speaker 2>out to Joshua Tree to record a performance for the

0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Jimmy Kimmel Live Show. What was that like? Because I

0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:33.720
<v Speaker 2>loved watching the videos. I thought they were great.

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Essentially, we've've all just been home the band, We've all

0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.040
<v Speaker 1>just been home, and then suddenly we're playing and singing.

0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, we're not like in a van. We're not

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 1>we don't have this like awareness of people or all

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the stuff that usually gears you up for a performance.

0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 1>So I tried to pick venues or situations that felt

0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.959
<v Speaker 1>like eventful so that it kind of it provided some

0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.880
<v Speaker 1>contexts for that feeling and if it wasn't the usual thing,

0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, so having this playing outside and that and

0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.239
<v Speaker 1>the sunset and Joashua Tree and having it be kind

0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.399
<v Speaker 1>of a destination. We all to drive a couple hours

0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 1>to get there, and I kind of had that feeling

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.120
<v Speaker 1>like we're about to do something and kind of helped

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 1>you gear up for it. And we did a live

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.960
<v Speaker 1>stream and I specifically picked an old theater that I

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.879
<v Speaker 1>thought would even if no one was there, that it

0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 1>would give energy, you know, like that in itself would

0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.879
<v Speaker 1>be like helpful to the energy, not distracting, just make

0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>it feel more creepy or haunted or something that you

0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 1>can you can utilize.

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 2>Did you play it to an empty studio? On Fallon

0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:39.520
<v Speaker 2>as well?

0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:40.879
<v Speaker 1>Which one was the foul?

0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.640
<v Speaker 2>And then Jimmy Fallon, maybe did you do that one?

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:50.720
<v Speaker 1>Because oh yeah, no no, and that one that was

0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 1>very much just like in a venue that was empty,

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.000
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, And like I kind of

0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:57.960
<v Speaker 1>liked that all the lights were on, Like I didn't

0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 1>try to make it look all moody, like we're playing

0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 1>a show and not I showed the empty theater. I

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.200
<v Speaker 1>showed them almost there, I think at the end. Yeah,

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's still kind of novel in a way,

0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 1>like I can still get off on it if I'm

0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 1>aligning right. I'm sure I will definitely get sick of

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 1>that every single time. It's so surprising how easily I

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.360
<v Speaker 1>click in to just okay, like I'm singing, I'm dancing,

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm moving, I just kind of it's like in my body,

0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.280
<v Speaker 1>and it's so satisfying. I forget how much I miss it.

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:36.160
<v Speaker 1>And I also forget that it's what I do now,

0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, because I don't know. I don't have a

0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of reminders. I don't have constant reminders anymore.

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:43.919
<v Speaker 2>You've had to adapt and do new things, like you

0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 2>just described going and doing the Joshua Tree thing, playing

0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.160
<v Speaker 2>to an empty TV studio Like normally you would when

0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 2>you put an album out, some of the things that

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 2>you do would be very familiar. You'd be doing similar

0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 2>things each time. So is there a little part of

0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.119
<v Speaker 2>you that has quite enjoyed having to come up with

0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 2>ideas to meet the challenge of what the situation is created.

0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.879
<v Speaker 1>Now. Yes, in the beginning it was not. I was

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.080
<v Speaker 1>not so grateful for that. Well, because I had a

0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of ideas before all this of what my show

0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 1>was going to be like, and I was working with

0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 1>someone to design lights and projections, you know, and I

0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.359
<v Speaker 1>really wanted to make it. I wanted to make the

0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.240
<v Speaker 1>show that I'd always wanted to do, but didn't really

0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.320
<v Speaker 1>have the capability of can you hear my dogs playing

0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:28.840
<v Speaker 1>with their toy?

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 2>I can hear something I was thinking, is that squeaking

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:32.639
<v Speaker 2>in the background? I can hit?

0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know. I was going to have like piles

0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.919
<v Speaker 1>of rope that I was riding around and and I

0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 1>still can do that. I guess I don't. It's not

0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:48.560
<v Speaker 1>like rope is gone. I can still source some rope,

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:51.880
<v Speaker 1>But I guess. I originally was trying to fit all

0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.480
<v Speaker 1>of those ideas I had into this new like framework

0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.240
<v Speaker 1>and these new limitations, and that wasn't really working very well.

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.920
<v Speaker 1>But once it started trying to think about, okay, let's

0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.120
<v Speaker 1>scrap all that and just think of trying to think

0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:11.159
<v Speaker 1>of some new ideas that actually use those limitations or

0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 1>like work within them instead of trying to jam stuff

0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.560
<v Speaker 1>in there. It's gone better, you know, it just feels

0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:18.960
<v Speaker 1>a little more like how it is now too Yeah,

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:19.960
<v Speaker 1>for better or for worse.

0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to ask, well, I wanted to briefly jump

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.360
<v Speaker 2>back a bit further in time and ask you about

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 2>the debut album Learning Actually, because it was released ten

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>years ago. Now, what's the sort of overriding feeling when

0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.320
<v Speaker 2>you look back on that body of work a decade later.

0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't think I had an awareness that it was

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 1>a decade later, But when I was writing my last record,

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.200
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking a lot about that album because I'm

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 1>honestly most proud of those lyrics than any of my

0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.640
<v Speaker 1>other records, or if it's not the lyricsist Selms, it's

0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:01.439
<v Speaker 1>the way that like I thought about writing and just

0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:04.600
<v Speaker 1>the practice of writing was a lot different than than

0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.919
<v Speaker 1>it is now, and I wanted to go back to

0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 1>that because it was very I'm still really proud of

0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:13.920
<v Speaker 1>those lyrics, you know. So I tried to write that

0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.040
<v Speaker 1>way when I was writing this most recent record, which

0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.639
<v Speaker 1>was something I wasn't really doing the last couple so

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 1>it was more exploratory in like every direction, especially the

0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:26.400
<v Speaker 1>one before this one.

0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:28.879
<v Speaker 2>So was it this sort of innocence of it that

0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.639
<v Speaker 2>you could recognize in those in those first songs. What

0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:33.440
<v Speaker 2>was it about those songs that you wanted to get

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:33.760
<v Speaker 2>back to?

0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Was they were more storyline? They were more like slice

0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 1>of life y even if I wasn't, you know, specifically

0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 1>saying the story like he went to the store or

0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.760
<v Speaker 1>something there was a store in it, or like that

0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:52.320
<v Speaker 1>someone's name or there are more world world nouns and

0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.239
<v Speaker 1>things that kind of it was, I guess more like

0:23:55.280 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 1>showing instead of telling a little bit. And though as

0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.080
<v Speaker 1>I went on and the songs became more like telling

0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 1>people how I'm feeling or trying to figure out, honestly,

0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:08.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot of it was just ended up being about

0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:14.520
<v Speaker 1>me more specifically, not that they all weren't always about me,

0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 1>but I used stories to kind of in scenes to

0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:26.399
<v Speaker 1>paint the picture of how I'm feeling, And in a

0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:30.160
<v Speaker 1>way it was more accurate than me trying to actually

0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.720
<v Speaker 1>just straight up say it, because I've never been very

0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:34.679
<v Speaker 1>good at that. That's the whole reason I make songs

0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:36.360
<v Speaker 1>to begin with this, because I have no idea how

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.040
<v Speaker 1>to talk about how I'm feeling most of the time,

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 1>but I definitely know I am feeling a lot or

0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.200
<v Speaker 1>too much or whatever, and so I make these little

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 1>scenes or portals or something to get it out. The

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.400
<v Speaker 1>record before this, I think just the way it sounded

0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 1>and the way the world I kind of built sonically,

0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.240
<v Speaker 1>that was doing it, That was communicating it for me,

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, And the lyrics were too. But in the

0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:08.359
<v Speaker 1>very very beginning, it was essentially only the lyrics, you know,

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:10.360
<v Speaker 1>that was like the main thing, and then everything else

0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:13.159
<v Speaker 1>was underneath. And then it kind of slowly moved to

0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.080
<v Speaker 1>the music and the lyrics underneath, Like I don't want

0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.240
<v Speaker 1>to talk shit about myself. This feels like I'm talking

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:24.000
<v Speaker 1>shit about myself. But now I feel like there the

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.760
<v Speaker 1>last record felt like a harmony of both of those things.

0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:31.280
<v Speaker 1>I felt like I was still being experimental and thinking

0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 1>about songs in sounds and writing, you know, when before

0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:39.320
<v Speaker 1>I used to feel like I was doing one or

0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 1>the other. You know, I started singing in Gibberish so

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't think about the words and he would only

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.680
<v Speaker 1>be guided by the sound and have that be communicating,

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 1>you know. But then it kind of came hard to

0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 1>fit lyrics into the gibberish. Afterwards, I kind of found

0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:56.399
<v Speaker 1>a way to do that, I mean, because I've been

0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:58.680
<v Speaker 1>doing it for ten years. But that first record was

0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:02.240
<v Speaker 1>also the first songs I'd ever written, so now I'm

0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:04.399
<v Speaker 1>kind of learning how to do it all as I go.

0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.000
<v Speaker 2>In terms of actually getting back in touch with the

0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:09.920
<v Speaker 2>essence of those lyrics that you liked so much from

0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:12.639
<v Speaker 2>that debut album, did you physically go and put the

0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.359
<v Speaker 2>record on to remind yourself of that or do you

0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:18.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't need to because presumably the majority of the time

0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:22.560
<v Speaker 2>you're only revisiting those songs when you perform them live now,

0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 2>like ten years later.

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:27.800
<v Speaker 1>It's more just thinking about that time and what writing

0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:30.440
<v Speaker 1>felt like it meant to me then in a way

0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 1>that was different than it does now, And a lot

0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:34.240
<v Speaker 1>of that probably had to do with that. I I

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:37.320
<v Speaker 1>didn't know anybody was going to listen or hear it,

0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, so I didn't have to carry that idea

0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:43.720
<v Speaker 1>even though I like that, you know. And it also

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:47.480
<v Speaker 1>that has been a big giant fuel to me too.

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:49.880
<v Speaker 1>So it's just finding a way to bring all those

0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:52.679
<v Speaker 1>things together and not have them be conflicting.

0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 2>I want to talk a little bit about music fandom,

0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.480
<v Speaker 2>because we've already mentioned some albums and some artists that

0:26:57.520 --> 0:26:59.760
<v Speaker 2>you've really enjoyed the work of this year. But going

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:01.720
<v Speaker 2>back a bit further in terms of the artists or

0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>some artists that you really connected with specifically, people like

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Alanis Morissette and Liz Fair and Cyndi Lauper, all names

0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:11.919
<v Speaker 2>that you've name checked a lot over the years. What

0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>was it about those artists that really spoke to you

0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:17.760
<v Speaker 2>so much when you were first discovering music or or

0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:19.400
<v Speaker 2>really discovering a passion for music.

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:22.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I got Liz Fair. I think I got Whip

0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Smart first, which is your second record, maybe sixth grade,

0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:31.480
<v Speaker 1>So what is that like twelve thirteen, and before then

0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:35.560
<v Speaker 1>I was mainly listening to pop music. But I don't

0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:38.600
<v Speaker 1>I think I stall I've told this story before. I

0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:40.680
<v Speaker 1>feel like she's another person thing. So I'm obsessed with

0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:44.119
<v Speaker 1>their But that's okay. It's because it's true. It's because

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.080
<v Speaker 1>it's true. So and I'm not a liar. But I

0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:51.520
<v Speaker 1>stole a spin magazine from the grocery store and she

0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:53.760
<v Speaker 1>was in there and they were talking about her stage

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:56.320
<v Speaker 1>fright and her lyrics, you know, and I was like, Wow,

0:27:56.400 --> 0:27:58.920
<v Speaker 1>that sounds really I don't know. Something about it was

0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:03.840
<v Speaker 1>very interesting to me. So I bought her CD and

0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:07.119
<v Speaker 1>I had never heard anything like it before, and I

0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:11.000
<v Speaker 1>had never heard someone singing about the things she was

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:14.600
<v Speaker 1>singing about in that way and without shame and without apology,

0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:18.840
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know, it just completely changed everything for me.

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.199
<v Speaker 1>I was like, this is who I want to be,

0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:24.360
<v Speaker 1>this is how I want to feel, this is who

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:27.000
<v Speaker 1>I want to hang out with, you know. And I

0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.560
<v Speaker 1>also it felt like a companion to me. And a

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.639
<v Speaker 1>lot of feelings that I was having that couldn't figure

0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:36.639
<v Speaker 1>out are aspirational or how I wanted to feel. I

0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:41.000
<v Speaker 1>had never really thought of music as doing that, and

0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.680
<v Speaker 1>so it just changed. I just became obsessed with music

0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:47.960
<v Speaker 1>and listening and I really that record, I think, is

0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:49.760
<v Speaker 1>what kind of changed everything for me.

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:52.000
<v Speaker 2>One of the other autists I mentioned just there is

0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:54.200
<v Speaker 2>Alonis Morissette. And then here was the onny of the

0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:57.120
<v Speaker 2>other day that I realized they've made a musical about

0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Jagged Little Pill, and it's a Broadway music really about this.

0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:04.440
<v Speaker 2>It won like some Tony Awards or something the other day,

0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:06.720
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, they made a musical about Jagged

0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Little Pill. That sounds brilliant because that was that album

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:12.239
<v Speaker 2>was sort of omnipresent when I was growing up. It

0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:14.400
<v Speaker 2>was you know, when you think of albums that were

0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>always playing in the car when you would for whatever

0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:19.520
<v Speaker 2>reason you're going somewhere, You're like, that was the album

0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that was always on. And Yeah, and I was going

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:23.800
<v Speaker 2>to ask you whether you'd heard about the music or

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 2>even seen it. I think it only opened last year.

0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>It's probably shut now because of the COVID.

0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:29.680
<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen it. Well, that's what was amazing about

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:34.360
<v Speaker 1>that record is that it had some nasty ideas, but

0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:37.600
<v Speaker 1>like your mom was to car, you know what I mean.

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:40.760
<v Speaker 1>So it's just like there's something really powerful about that

0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:45.160
<v Speaker 1>to like hear like a woman singing about those things

0:29:45.280 --> 0:29:48.760
<v Speaker 1>and having that be like widely loved and feeling that

0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:51.800
<v Speaker 1>when I was young, it was like was inspiring.

0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Your experience of working with different disciplines. Last year you

0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 2>did The Sun Still Burns Here, which was a project

0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:02.080
<v Speaker 2>well you probably better for you to describe it rather

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.480
<v Speaker 2>than me, but it was it was a move outside

0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.400
<v Speaker 2>of just the music making that you've been doing the

0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:09.200
<v Speaker 2>last couple of years. How was that experience. What did

0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:11.239
<v Speaker 2>you take away from it and is it something you

0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:13.400
<v Speaker 2>want to want to pursue further?

0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean so much went into that, so much,

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:19.720
<v Speaker 1>like I took so much from it. It's kind of

0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 1>like talking about my dog. I feel like I'm not.

0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:24.480
<v Speaker 1>It was sort of cult like. Honestly, it felt very

0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:26.720
<v Speaker 1>culty like. When I was in the middle of it,

0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 1>I was absolutely deranged and the things that I was

0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.960
<v Speaker 1>talking about are crazy. I influenced my record, influenced a

0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:37.400
<v Speaker 1>lot about how I was thinking about where I was

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:41.160
<v Speaker 1>in my life and who I love and what I'm doing.

0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:46.400
<v Speaker 1>It like really rocked me, but I didn't know what. Essentially,

0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:49.560
<v Speaker 1>in the beginning, it was me and Kate, the choreographer.

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.640
<v Speaker 1>She reached out and we wanted to make a dance

0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 1>piece that had live music in it, where those two

0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:01.040
<v Speaker 1>things weren't super disconnected. It wasn't just a band playing

0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 1>on one side and then a dance happening on the other.

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to dance and if they wanted to sing,

0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.520
<v Speaker 1>which that didn't end up happening as much, but have

0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:16.080
<v Speaker 1>those things be mixed together. I also wanted to go

0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:18.200
<v Speaker 1>about writing the music for like an hour long dance

0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:22.960
<v Speaker 1>piece and not having it just be like textual ambient music.

0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I wanted it almost more like an opera. I wanted

0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:27.360
<v Speaker 1>them to be songs, you know, and the songs are

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.320
<v Speaker 1>like ten minutes long and longer and more experimental. But

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:34.960
<v Speaker 1>I still tried to make it something that if you

0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 1>took it away from the dance, you would want to

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:39.560
<v Speaker 1>listen to it, but also having it not be really

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.200
<v Speaker 1>able to exist without the dance. But it was just

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:44.960
<v Speaker 1>a whole new way of writing. And then it was

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:48.040
<v Speaker 1>a very different way of performing because I was with

0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other people in a very different way.

0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Like with the band, I'm usually the one throwing myself

0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:56.720
<v Speaker 1>around everywhere and screaming and you know, homping the floor

0:31:56.800 --> 0:31:58.800
<v Speaker 1>and everything. And now I'm like humping the floor with

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:02.120
<v Speaker 1>like seven other people that are also doing that, you know,

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.440
<v Speaker 1>and I would like look up and it's like whoa,

0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:07.480
<v Speaker 1>They're in the exact same place as me. And even

0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:10.600
<v Speaker 1>in rehearsals, like humping the floor, that's something that I

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:13.840
<v Speaker 1>was doing before I was a musician, you know what

0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Like getting into some weird energetic space with

0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:20.280
<v Speaker 1>a wall. Not always humping. It could be something more

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.000
<v Speaker 1>sacred than that. Not this, I'll just you know what

0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean. But I was getting to weird places physically, energetically,

0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:30.840
<v Speaker 1>and then in rehearsals, like I would be looking out

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:34.000
<v Speaker 1>the window crying at a car for no reason, like

0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:36.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm just looking at a car crying, and I would

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:38.360
<v Speaker 1>look over and LoVa and other dancers looking at the

0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:44.120
<v Speaker 1>same car crying, and it's just nonsensical but very real

0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:48.280
<v Speaker 1>thing meeting together. And that's what was so beautiful. It

0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:53.400
<v Speaker 1>is like work and real life mixing together when they

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:54.560
<v Speaker 1>used to feel very separate.

0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:57.480
<v Speaker 2>It sounds very visceral, like I had a real like

0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.640
<v Speaker 2>physical effect as well. I mean always that means to

0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:02.880
<v Speaker 2>state the obvious of the physical element of it, but

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:07.040
<v Speaker 2>like excavating loads of feelings and chemicals. Oh yeah, everything

0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:08.080
<v Speaker 2>mixed in together.

0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Very very much like that, you know, And like I

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:12.800
<v Speaker 1>feel like all I really do is sit around and

0:33:12.880 --> 0:33:15.400
<v Speaker 1>think a lot about Oh I want to leave my body,

0:33:15.800 --> 0:33:18.280
<v Speaker 1>I want to go to space, blah blah blah, like

0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:21.680
<v Speaker 1>all this wild ship and I'm just sitting still. I'm

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:24.640
<v Speaker 1>not I'm just thinking. But then I was doing all

0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:28.200
<v Speaker 1>those feelings like in movement and with people, and just

0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:32.840
<v Speaker 1>like screaming into someone's like backbones, and like someone's biting

0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:36.600
<v Speaker 1>my shin, and I'm like, you know, I'm like somebody's

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:40.080
<v Speaker 1>screaming at God or something. You know. It's like very

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:43.600
<v Speaker 1>exciting to me that these things were happening. I wasn't

0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 1>just like making a joke about it or doing some

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:50.680
<v Speaker 1>weird song in my room by myself about it. It

0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.880
<v Speaker 1>is like I had company and I was in my

0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:57.640
<v Speaker 1>actual body. I wasn't you know, I was in. I

0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:01.360
<v Speaker 1>was there, Like these people are real, this room is real,

0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:02.360
<v Speaker 1>and my body is real.

0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Your music has soundtracked some iconic moments in movies and

0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:09.719
<v Speaker 2>TV over the past decade, thinking of eighth Grade and

0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:12.399
<v Speaker 2>Thirteen Reasons Why, and my favorite, which was stip Away

0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:16.080
<v Speaker 2>used in books Smart. Are there any places where your

0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:19.920
<v Speaker 2>music has been used that you've been particularly really pleased with,

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:23.279
<v Speaker 2>Just like that is perfect in terms of bringing a

0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>moment together.

0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:27.879
<v Speaker 1>The book Smart was pretty perfect, like that like big

0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:30.759
<v Speaker 1>coming of age moment with like a kind of a

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:35.319
<v Speaker 1>big explosion in the song. I love how I'm soundtracking

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:39.920
<v Speaker 1>either like deaths, a lot of deaths, or like teenage

0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:44.040
<v Speaker 1>like coming of age things, you know, those I'm into

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.279
<v Speaker 1>that when any of those are captured perfectly, it's like

0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:49.719
<v Speaker 1>really not like a death. I don't feel like a

0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:53.400
<v Speaker 1>death capture profectly. It just means like a really like

0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 1>heavy moment, and I don't know, it's cathartic to me.

0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:01.040
<v Speaker 1>That's like why I make all of the songs, so

0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 1>if I feel like I can help that seen be

0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:09.080
<v Speaker 1>more of that in a movie way. Well, those are

0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the songs you remember too, Like I feel like I

0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:13.960
<v Speaker 1>remember all those when you're teenager and you watch those

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:16.520
<v Speaker 1>movies and those moments. Those are the things that you

0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:19.960
<v Speaker 1>hear around with you. So I feel lucky to have

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:21.880
<v Speaker 1>that sort of place in it.

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:23.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a big one for me. ISS songs on video

0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:26.880
<v Speaker 2>games as well, really like place a certain time for me,

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.239
<v Speaker 2>like because video game soundtracks and stuff. I mean, I

0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:30.920
<v Speaker 2>don't play a lot of video games now, but I

0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:33.120
<v Speaker 2>did when I was younger, and so the songs, some

0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>songs are still ready attached to that for me in

0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:36.359
<v Speaker 2>the same way that TV movie song.

0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I didn't realize it, but one of my songs on

0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:40.919
<v Speaker 1>the last record, somebody said that it sounded a lot

0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 1>like the Final Fantasy theme song, And I listen to

0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:48.680
<v Speaker 1>it and it's almost like the harp kind of the

0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.239
<v Speaker 1>heart part in the very beginning of my song Leave

0:35:51.400 --> 0:35:53.560
<v Speaker 1>is very very close to it, and I had been

0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.239
<v Speaker 1>playing a lot of final Fantasy around when I was

0:35:57.280 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 1>making that record. I didn't even intend to.

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Do it, just absorbed it.

0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean that song that's specific little line. I don't

0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 1>think it's a heart, it's some generated instrument, but it's

0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:10.600
<v Speaker 1>so like classic I feel like I can borrow from

0:36:10.600 --> 0:36:13.319
<v Speaker 1>a little bit. I feel that way about if you're

0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:16.280
<v Speaker 1>gonna be influenced by things, it should be like classic

0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:21.400
<v Speaker 1>things at least twenty years ago, at least twenty yeah,

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.560
<v Speaker 1>or something that's like an immediate classic. It's very strange

0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:26.640
<v Speaker 1>to me when people are writing songs that are clearly

0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 1>influenced by something like six months ago, like just.

0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Have just wait a little bit you can hear on

0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:35.759
<v Speaker 2>the radio. And so that's why it sounds jarring, I think,

0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:38.680
<v Speaker 2>because it just feels like, yeah, you'll you're borrowing ideas

0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 2>from two minutes ago, and that's why it sounds nope, no,

0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:43.520
<v Speaker 2>great again. Yeah.

0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of a conic though, when I think about it,

0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:49.560
<v Speaker 1>like everybody kind of has the same All American singers

0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:53.239
<v Speaker 1>have the same sort of like faux English accent too

0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 1>that they're all singing in. Yeah, I've never really missed.

0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 1>It's not even an English accent. I don't even know

0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 1>what you call it. It's just spec I think it's

0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:04.200
<v Speaker 1>from a cheering like a lot of the guys have

0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:09.279
<v Speaker 1>this kind of vaguely cheer any sound to the what

0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:11.880
<v Speaker 1>they're from, like Idaho, you know.

0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I suppose. The final thing I wanted to ask

0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>you about was like, every time you've made a new album,

0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:20.240
<v Speaker 2>you've you've come to sort of inhabit a new world

0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:25.640
<v Speaker 2>visually stylistically, and everything feels so coherent. What's going around

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:28.239
<v Speaker 2>your mind now, Like has it been a creative time

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:31.279
<v Speaker 2>recently or not at all? And what might happen next

0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.200
<v Speaker 2>in terms of where you want to take things, And

0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:34.680
<v Speaker 2>you've got any thoughts about what you might want to

0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:35.879
<v Speaker 2>do next year and things like that.

0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:39.560
<v Speaker 1>I think it's starting to happen. I honestly felt it

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.640
<v Speaker 1>felt like a like nothingness for a while, but I

0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:46.319
<v Speaker 1>think things were happening in the background. I'm definitely going

0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 1>to have a lot to respond to and definitely have

0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:50.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot that I haven't processed that I'm going to

0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:55.759
<v Speaker 1>have to so I can start of feel happening, and

0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 1>I want to be able to present the music for

0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the dance in it. I want to share that music,

0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:03.520
<v Speaker 1>and I want to present it in some sort of way,

0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:06.920
<v Speaker 1>like when I'm not really able to tour that show

0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:10.680
<v Speaker 1>at the moment and I'm not able to dance. So

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:13.960
<v Speaker 1>I've been working on something that can still have all

0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:18.080
<v Speaker 1>those elements and be shareable, have it fit in to

0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:22.800
<v Speaker 1>this moment. So we'll see how that goes. Future future thinking.

0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:26.960
<v Speaker 1>It's very futuristic my idea. Yeah, so we'll see.

0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Great. Well, I look forward to what you're going to

0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:31.760
<v Speaker 2>come up with. Listen, thank you, Mike. I should probably

0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:32.719
<v Speaker 2>let you go and move the dog.

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:44.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, I gotta walk Wanda anyway. Good night,