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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you, If you think.

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Speaker 3: That one person has all the answers.

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Speaker 5: Don't welcome to Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 1: hosts who've actually experienced it. I'm Megan Elizabeth, and this

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Speaker 1: week we are doing part two of our discussion with

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Speaker 1: Roberta Blevins. Lola's out of town this week, So I'll

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Speaker 1: just quickly describe what we're going to talk about this

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Speaker 1: week and then we'll jump right into it. We discuss

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Speaker 1: everything about Lula Roe's founder Dean Brady, who I'm wow,

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Speaker 1: cannot believe this person actually exists in her bizarre family,

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Speaker 1: the mother figure she provided in Roberta's life, dealing with

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Speaker 1: toxic positivity, and a thorough list of red flags to

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Speaker 1: look out for. Plus how Roberta finally realized that she

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Speaker 1: was in a cult, and how starting her own podcast

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Speaker 1: helped with her own recovery. Let's get right into it.

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Speaker 1: We got to get into Dan at some point because

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Speaker 1: she a little bit of time one of my main

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Speaker 1: obsessions in life.

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Speaker 4: I cannot She's a psychopath.

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Speaker 1: She's the craziest fucking person I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: So, Okay, just to wrap up your Lula Roe chapter,

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Speaker 2: you start noticing things not super ethical practices, not running

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Speaker 2: like a business, and you decide to leave.

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Speaker 3: So how did.

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Speaker 2: You end up realizing it was maybe bigger than that

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Speaker 2: and there are people who'd really been harmed.

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Speaker 3: Like, what was the next step in your journey?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So one of the main things was that I

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Speaker 4: wasn't allowed to be a part of these Facebook groups

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Speaker 4: that were full of haters. So once I became a hater,

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Speaker 4: I was like, well, I got to join the Facebook

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Speaker 4: group because like, obviously this is where I belong. So

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Speaker 4: I got added to the Facebook group and started talking

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Speaker 4: to people in there. The first week was literally me

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Speaker 4: just deconstructing and crying and being like, Okay, I'm not crazy,

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Speaker 4: I'm not a liar. Everything did happen. It happened to

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Speaker 4: all these people too. I'm not alone. This is not

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Speaker 4: a singular weird experience. Other people got dead, fart leggings. Okay,

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Speaker 4: everything's a lie the whole time, Yes, the whole time.

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Speaker 4: This is so strange. So I started connecting with those

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Speaker 4: people and probably for like a week or so, was super,

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Speaker 4: super heavily immersed just like in it all the time, responding, tagging, sharing,

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Speaker 4: just like going off like I'm like, I have stories

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Speaker 4: I can corroborate, and just like going off on everything.

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad that that Facebook group eventually did get

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Speaker 4: deleted because we just we were feral, and I'm like

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Speaker 4: it was it was like very much like processing grief,

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Speaker 4: like Live twenty four to seven for right, And I

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Speaker 4: just remember being like, Okay, I need to take a

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Speaker 4: break social media. I don't want to talk to these

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Speaker 4: people anymore. I just need a little bit of a break.

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Speaker 4: And my now ex husband was like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 4: we've got an Aftermath on the DVR if you want

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Speaker 4: to watch that. I know how much you love Leah

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Speaker 4: Remeny and I was like yeah, So I watched Scientology

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Speaker 4: Aftermath and burst into tears and was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: I was in a cult. It was Claire Hedley that

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Speaker 4: was on that was like telling her story, and I

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Speaker 4: was like, it's not the same, but it's damn near

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Speaker 4: close enough that I had a similar experience to every

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Speaker 4: single point that these survivors of Scientology had. And I

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Speaker 4: knew Scientology was a cult because I had been obsessed

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Speaker 4: with it during the time I lived in la when

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Speaker 4: Tom Cruise was jumping on couches and wearing black turtlenecks,

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Speaker 4: I was all about it, So I was fully aware. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so I was like, oh my god, I'm in a cult,

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Speaker 4: Like I.

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Speaker 2: What what were there some of those parallels that you saw.

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Speaker 4: The excommunication, the control of you know, there was no

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Speaker 4: like whole in Lulaau. But if you didn't do something

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Speaker 4: that that the owners didn't like, if you couldn't get

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Speaker 4: to California for the thing they said you needed to do,

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Speaker 4: or if you couldn't be there to be on the webinar,

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Speaker 4: like you didn't get asked again, you just sort of

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Speaker 4: got black like blackballed. You just were like shunned, like

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Speaker 4: blacklisted done. You're like, what did I do? I just

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Speaker 4: like her own family members, there was someone who was like, oh, sorry,

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Speaker 4: Aunty Anne, like we have a family vacation, and she

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Speaker 4: was like, lulaou comes first, and she was like what,

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Speaker 4: Like I've had this thing planned, like I come to everything,

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Speaker 4: I haven't missed anything, and I need to miss this

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Speaker 4: one thing. And like Dan made a huge think about it,

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Speaker 4: so that those kind of things controlling what we wore.

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Speaker 4: We weren't allowed to wear anything that wasn't Lularoe and

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Speaker 4: if like at home, obviously nobody cared, but if you

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Speaker 4: were at an event and Dane saw you or someone

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Speaker 4: higher up saw you, they might say something like why

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Speaker 4: are you wearing jeans? Now, lulao sells jeans, but like

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Speaker 4: at the time, like if you were wearing something that

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Speaker 4: wasn't lul row. They made examples of people. There was

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Speaker 4: a whole thing one time at convention where they're like

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Speaker 4: people in the audience wearing Lula Roux not as intended

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Speaker 4: and if you're going to be a representation of the brand,

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Speaker 4: you need to wear our clothes as intended and like

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Speaker 4: made people cry, oh my God, like no reason. And

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Speaker 4: so it was weird. Little things like that just just

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Speaker 4: control and abuse, just just like micro macro tiny like

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Speaker 4: very covert, very like covert abuse where I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: Lulaou did that, but it was with this, or Okay,

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Speaker 4: well it wasn't that, but it was this. But there

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Speaker 4: were so many similarities and it was just abuse. It

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Speaker 4: was just ways to control people. And so realizing that

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Speaker 4: I was in that, I then like headed to Reddit

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Speaker 4: and was like, I need to figure out what this

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Speaker 4: is because it's like, it's not a business, it might

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Speaker 4: be a cult. What else is this? And I remember

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Speaker 4: going to Reddit and finding anti EMLM Reddit and sharing

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Speaker 4: my story and having other people be like, oh, I

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Speaker 4: was in this MLM and that happened to me too.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, wait a second, So the shit

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Speaker 4: that's happening in Lulaou is happening and unique too. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's happening over here in you know, Avon, or it's

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Speaker 4: happening over here in Beach Body too. And I was

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Speaker 4: talking to all these different survivors from different MLMs and

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Speaker 4: being like, oh my God, like, this is what's happening

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Speaker 4: to me. And luckily for us, Lulaauu was fucking up

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Speaker 4: a lot in the media, and so when the when

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Speaker 4: the media came knocking, they were like, hey, we want

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Speaker 4: to talk to survivors. I was out, I had already

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Speaker 4: signed that paper. I was free and clear of lu laau,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, I'll share, that's fine. Nobody wanted

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Speaker 4: to talk about it because nobody wanted to put a

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Speaker 4: target on their back. And I was like, look, I've

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Speaker 4: heard the worst stories possible with scientology, Like it can't

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Speaker 4: be as bad as like digging through somebody's trash, Like

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Speaker 4: what's the worst that they're going to do? Right, Like

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Speaker 4: I'm already not allowed to sell like leggings. I don't

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Speaker 4: want to, like, what's the worst that they're going to do?

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Speaker 4: And so I just started sharing my story and I

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Speaker 4: made sure that I used protective language and I didn't

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Speaker 4: accuse anybody of anything that I couldn't back up with

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Speaker 4: screenshots and personal experience and videos and everything. And I

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Speaker 4: was just like hell health, no fear, Like you know,

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Speaker 4: hell health, no fury, like a woman scorned, like you

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Speaker 4: fucked with the wrong girl, and you know you shouldn't

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Speaker 4: have unfriended me and spread lies about me and made

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Speaker 4: things up about me, because none of that was real.

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Speaker 4: And that's like one of my hyperfixations, like being accused

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Speaker 4: of things I have not done in the way that

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Speaker 4: I grew up of having to constantly always be defending

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Speaker 4: myself and my actions because I was accute, Like no,

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no no.

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Speaker 4: I made money, I was well liked, I had a

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Speaker 4: good time. I had a good experience, Like you're not

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Speaker 4: gonna use your platitudinous bullshit to make me into somebody

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Speaker 4: who couldn't hack it, like I was near the top

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Speaker 4: of the pyramid. I have multiple like I met Diana

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Speaker 4: a bunch of times, like she gave me horrible life advice,

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Speaker 4: like you are not going to paint me as a

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Speaker 4: failure like everybody else. How much money? And I just

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Speaker 4: how much? Mon I just jumped in and dovid.

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Speaker 5: How much money were you making when you quit? Or

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Speaker 5: about how much?

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Speaker 4: Not enough? Yeah, Like the six five thousand dollars were

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Speaker 4: bonuses for a year and a half, so I don't know,

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Speaker 4: forty five to fifty thousand dollars a year less than

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Speaker 4: the other job I was doing that I quit to

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Speaker 4: do this full time, right, But I was like, well,

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Speaker 4: I don't have to travel. That was wrong. I traveled

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Speaker 4: more with Lula Row than I did when I was

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Speaker 4: going to La once a week because I was traveling

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Speaker 4: to go to all these stupid parties to set up

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Speaker 4: to sell five things, to break down and be like,

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Speaker 4: what a waste of my day. I could have gone

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Speaker 4: to the zoo with my daughter or gone swimming or

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Speaker 4: like played and had a good time, but no, I'm

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Speaker 4: driving up to Temecula to have a friggin leggings party

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Speaker 4: in somebody's living room.

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Speaker 2: Like no, Yeah, at that point, the Facebook group still existed,

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Speaker 2: and you were just like, this is not the atmosphere

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to look elsewhere for my info.

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Speaker 2: I'm really fascinated by how Facebook groups sometimes can like yeah,

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Speaker 2: go on track.

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Speaker 4: Right before I left Lula Rowe, there was this woman

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Speaker 4: that was blogging and sharing like all these secrets and

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Speaker 4: because this is literally the only reason I was asked

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Speaker 4: because I had been a blogger, a professional blogger prior,

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Speaker 4: they were like, oh, well, we don't know if it's

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Speaker 4: a real blog or a serious blog. Because I was like,

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Speaker 4: all blogs are real, that's weird, and they're like, we

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Speaker 4: don't know if it's like a real blog or just like,

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Speaker 4: could you look at it for us and tell us

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Speaker 4: if it's like a legit blog, okay, and I just

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Speaker 4: I went I was like, I don't understand what you're asking,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, sure, if you're gonna let me look at things,

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Speaker 4: so I'm gonna look. And I remember reading the articles

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Speaker 4: and being like is this true? Because if this is true,

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Speaker 4: like this changes a lot. And so those were some

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Speaker 4: of the first like seeds that were planted where I

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Speaker 4: was like, well, she said this, and I know that

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Speaker 4: that happened, and then she said this, so if I

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Speaker 4: know that's true, there's a possibility that this over here

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Speaker 4: is also true. And it was always just in the

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Speaker 4: back of my mind. And then it was like that

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Speaker 4: Facebook group was another like okay, don't now that you've

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Speaker 4: looked at the blog and you say it's just a

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Speaker 4: regular blog, you don't need to look at the blog anymore.

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Speaker 4: But I kept looking at the blog and you know,

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Speaker 4: and then when I find left because the Facebook group

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Speaker 4: would not let me in because they knew I was

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Speaker 4: an act of Lularo consultant. They blocked me the first

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Speaker 4: time I tried to get in because They're like, we

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Speaker 4: don't want consultants in here, and I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm in the middle of leaving. I have questions, I

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Speaker 4: need answers, please help me, and they allowed me in.

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Speaker 4: I just the group was so instrumental in just every like,

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Speaker 4: just everything like. And I'm still friends with all of

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Speaker 4: those people and I'm still in that group and I

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Speaker 4: just talked to them the other day. I just it

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Speaker 4: was so instrumental in just having just like somewhere to

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Speaker 4: put my thoughts and like someone to respond and say,

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Speaker 4: you're not alone. Because for so long, every time anything

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Speaker 4: happened in Lulaow, I was always hold, that's so weird.

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Speaker 4: That's never happened before. I was like, how come it

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Speaker 4: always happens to me? Yeah, all the stuff that's never

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Speaker 4: happened before, it happens to me multiple times, right, And

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Speaker 4: those sort of questions were like, yeah, I know what

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Speaker 4: happened to me too. It happened to me too. It

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Speaker 4: happened to me too, And it was it was so

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Speaker 4: instrumental and just knowing I wasn't alone. Yeah, And the

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Speaker 4: group is still around, it's just it's different now. It's

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Speaker 4: called I think it's called Defector's Support now, but it

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Speaker 4: was called like defective Leggings or something before. And it's

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Speaker 4: still there and there's lots of people that are in there,

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Speaker 4: and they still keep updates of everything LULAO. I don't

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Speaker 4: really focus, Like my content's not really Lularo focused as opposed,

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Speaker 4: it's like mostly just MLM focused, right, But they keep

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Speaker 4: up with it so if people are interested, like that's

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Speaker 4: the best most up to date information. I think everybody

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Speaker 4: from the Lula Rich documentary is in there, most ones

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Speaker 4: that are at least out are in there, and they

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Speaker 4: do ama stuff in there all the time for people

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Speaker 4: that have lots of Luluo questions, because there are so

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Speaker 4: many questions, like I could have a whole just Luluo

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Speaker 4: podcast and probably do like three or four seasons of

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Speaker 4: stories like no problem. That's crazy, Like no.

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Speaker 5: Problem, I don't doubt it.

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Speaker 2: You see these parallels, You're like, this is basically a

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Speaker 2: cult that I was in and all of these other

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Speaker 2: people in MLM's same deal. Megan, I want to address

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Speaker 2: your questions before we go into like more general.

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Speaker 4: Ashs I have.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I just I want to know everything.

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Speaker 1: What is so compelling about her and what did you

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Speaker 1: find yourself drawn.

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Speaker 3: To that's the president then their husband.

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Speaker 1: Own it, Mark and Dian Yeah, yeah, so what is

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Speaker 1: so compelling about Diane and why were you drawn to her?

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Speaker 5: She makes the prints too correct at first, and making

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Speaker 5: buy she.

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Speaker 4: Would buy the fabric. They would go to it like

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Speaker 4: downtown La Fabric District and they would buy fabric and

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Speaker 4: they would make MAXI skirts. Got it. Then they started

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Speaker 4: using like seamstresses, and then they started using like entire facilities,

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Speaker 4: and it grew from there into leggings and shirts and

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Speaker 4: tops and dresses and so many things. I met her

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Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen. I had not yet signed onto Lularoe.

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Speaker 4: It was the very first Lulao event I ever went to.

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Speaker 4: It was in want to say, like Ontario, California, at

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Speaker 4: like a holiday in or something. It was like a

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Speaker 4: little tiny thing, and I met her and I already

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Speaker 4: like I was waiting. I was in a queue, which

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Speaker 4: was like you joined Lularo, but you're not officially onboarded

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Speaker 4: because like they didn't have enough stuff, so there was

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Speaker 4: this really long wait list. So I was in the

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Speaker 4: wait list and I already had somebody that had joined

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Speaker 4: my team, and she was waiting in line too, so

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Speaker 4: like there was already people on my team before I

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Speaker 4: had even joined officially. And Diane was really impressed with that,

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Speaker 4: and she was like, oh my god, we have to

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Speaker 4: get you onboarded. Faster, we have to get you on

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Speaker 4: board and faster. Oh you're so you're such a rock star.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, we need to get you onboarded. And

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Speaker 4: I was like okay, and I just was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my gosh, this woman like she it was. It's bullshit, though,

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Speaker 4: because the person that I was eight years ago when

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Speaker 4: I thought this was appealing and wonderful, it's not the

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Speaker 4: person that I am now, right, And so the person

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Speaker 4: that I was back then was a struggling woman who

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Speaker 4: didn't understand her place in the world, was stuck in

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Speaker 4: diet culture and patriarchy and not understanding feminism and what

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Speaker 4: that means and where my life was headed. And I

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Speaker 4: just I wanted to be not a trad wife, but

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Speaker 4: I wanted to be like that perfect stay at home

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Speaker 4: mom who has it all and does it all and

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Speaker 4: hosts the pta and runs the book club and does

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Speaker 4: the whole you know, and she embodies that, and she

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Speaker 4: embodies that. Yeah, and I didn't have the best I

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Speaker 4: had a great childhood. I had a great dad, and

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Speaker 4: my mom is pretty cool. But my mom is a

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Speaker 4: little extra in a way that has impacted me my

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Speaker 4: whole life without having to say much. But y'all know,

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Speaker 4: So I've got this mom who was very withholding my

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Speaker 4: whole life silent treatment is like was like her best game.

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Speaker 4: And so somebody who saw my potential. And again, my

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Speaker 4: dad's dead now, right, so I don't have that person

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Speaker 4: that's like Bert, I'm proud of you. That was my dad.

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Speaker 4: So I don't have that anymore. And so finding a

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Speaker 4: woman a mother figure in my life was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, you're a rockstart. You are so incredible. I

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Speaker 4: was like, yes, I need more of this, like I

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Speaker 4: need more positive female empowerment. This is what female empowerment

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Speaker 4: feels like. And it wasn't because her advice was like,

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Speaker 4: make sure even if you even if you know barely

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Speaker 4: make it out of bed, make sure you always put

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Speaker 4: on your lipstick, like you're always naked without a without lipstick.

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Speaker 3: Yeah no, thank you?

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Speaker 4: Right? So what is there's something compelling about that to me?

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Speaker 1: Or like safe feeling to me, she's like the female Todd,

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Speaker 1: Chrissy or Christy or how I don't know, like like

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Speaker 1: she has some homespun wisdom about her, and I can

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Speaker 1: just find myself feeling safe in her presence.

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Speaker 4: And I felt that too, and I even told her

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Speaker 4: so many times, like I'm like, you're like the mother

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Speaker 4: figure that I always wanted, like the mom who's proud

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Speaker 4: of you, the mom who was like there, you know,

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Speaker 4: And I fell for that. And I don't know if

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Speaker 4: it's like because Diane has some of that narcissistic tendency

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Speaker 4: and like I'm finding comfort in the chaos and being like, oh,

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Speaker 4: someone who's emotionally unavailable, who's proud of me, Like I

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Speaker 4: want to be your best friend. I wasn't sure what

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Speaker 4: it was, you know, I didn't have language for any

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Speaker 4: of this. I was just lost. And I just wanted

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Speaker 4: to be the wife that could provide like relief for

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Speaker 4: my husband, like if I could just bring in all

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Speaker 4: this money so he didn't have to stress about bills,

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Speaker 4: Like wouldn't I be the hero of the day. And

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Speaker 4: I think it's like something that women think about a lot,

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Speaker 4: especially when I was like that was in my thirties,

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Speaker 4: Like I was so concerned about what everybody else was

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Speaker 4: thinking about me as me as a mother and a wife,

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Speaker 4: and I was just stuck in this thing and I thought, oh, wow,

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Speaker 4: like this answers so many of my problems, and Diane

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Speaker 4: embodied kind of that successful, like cute blonde he like.

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Speaker 4: I was like, hey, look she can. She can be

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Speaker 4: feminine and a badass like I can. I don't have

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Speaker 4: to be like like, I don't have to be the

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Speaker 4: man to be the man, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Like it was a weird feeling. I don't know how

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Speaker 4: to explaining it. Yeah, it was this very strange feeling.

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Speaker 4: And then being vulnerable with losing my dad and like

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Speaker 4: being vulnerable without having that feminine inspiration in my life.

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Speaker 4: It just was like a recipe for disaster. And I

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Speaker 4: was just like, she's the best, and I just wanted

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Speaker 4: to be near her, and I just wanted her to

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Speaker 4: be proud of me. And I thought if I worked

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Speaker 4: really hard and got a bunch of people on my team,

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Speaker 4: then she would be proud of me. And it happened.

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Speaker 4: It worked. She thought it was yeah, yeah, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I remember when I asked her, I said, my

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Speaker 4: husband's not on board and he still doesn't like lu LaRoe,

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Speaker 4: And she told me I should find a new husband.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, And that was like only

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Speaker 4: like a six months in Like I stayed for a

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Speaker 4: whole nother year.

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Speaker 3: How to interact with her?

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Speaker 4: How many times did I interact with her?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how frequently?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I probably saw her every couple months,

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Speaker 4: maybe usually at events. Because I was in southern California,

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Speaker 4: I just had the opportunity to go to more of

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Speaker 4: these events and so she just and I always my

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Speaker 4: dad was always like, make it a point to shake

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Speaker 4: hands with the people who make the decisions. Get your

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Speaker 4: face out there, like let people know who you are,

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Speaker 4: introduce yourself. And so I just remember doing that very

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Speaker 4: early on and being like, oh, I remember I'm in

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Speaker 4: San Diego. I'm so excited, Like I've already got a

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Speaker 4: personally team. Oh my god, you're a recent real want

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 4: Like I want them to know who I am because

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Speaker 4: I want to know who they are. It was just

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Speaker 4: this really strange thing, right, And I think because I

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Speaker 4: trusted them, because I wanted to trust them. Even after

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Speaker 4: I saw those red flags, I still wanted to believe

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Speaker 4: that when they said we're doing this because we love you,

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Speaker 4: that it was real. And it really wasn't until I

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Speaker 4: absolutely left and was gone that I could see any

393
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Speaker 4: of the evil. I still was like, I just I

394
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 4: think Dean's a good person, and I think maybe Mark

395
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 4: just controls her, but I don't. I still think that

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Speaker 4: Mark's kind of the puppet master, but I think Dian

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Speaker 4: controls a lot more than I originally thought Mark's her husband. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And it's this very like manufactured performative feminism of like

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Speaker 4: don't forget to butt your lipstick on, and it's not

400
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Speaker 4: very feminist, you know, And like leaving and seeing the

401
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 4: toxic femininity and the toxic masculinity and the toxic positivity

402
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,199
Speaker 4: and everything that was in that that like all of

403
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Speaker 4: the ingredients to make this work. That's when I started

404
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 4: going like, oh, I got it. I should probably tell

405
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 4: other people about this, all of these things that I'm uncovering,

406
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 4: because it connects with so many things, and I was

407
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 4: just like, I have to tell people about this. I

408
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 4: can't keep quiet anymore. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And what came first was it podcast TikTok? Where

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00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 2: did you kind of start talking?

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Speaker 4: Okay? So I started talking in that fa Facebook group

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Speaker 4: and I would have we would do Facebook live interviews.

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Speaker 4: So the very first interviews I ever did were Facebook

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Speaker 4: live interviews with Courtney, with Sam and with Darryl. They're

415
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Speaker 4: all in Lula Rich. They were my very first interviews,

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Speaker 4: and we would talk in Facebook Live. I really liked

417
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Speaker 4: doing that. I had a friend that had an anti

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Speaker 4: EMLM podcast who had asked me to come on, and

419
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Speaker 4: I had had so much fun that they asked me

420
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Speaker 4: to be a part time co host sometimes and don't

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Speaker 4: tell me that that's an option, because I hit the

422
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Speaker 4: ground running and was like booking all these appointments and

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Speaker 4: interviews and like I'm like, look at this logo I made,

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Speaker 4: and the other two people were just not as gung ho,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, we should do this. And while

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Speaker 4: I'm doing all of this, and I also made a

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Speaker 4: documentary call. It was called like Leaving Lulaou or something.

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Speaker 4: It was on Vice It it's on YouTube search Vice

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Speaker 4: Lulaau on YouTube. It'll pop right up. You'll see my face.

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Speaker 4: You'd be like, oh. And that was the first thing

431
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 4: I ever did that led to like multiple articles with

432
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 4: like Bloomberg. I was a source for BuzzFeed. I was

433
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 4: a source for Business Insider for a while, and then

434
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 4: the documentary came.

435
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 5: Around, which is fantastic, by the way, Yeah, Rich.

436
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,959
Speaker 4: Came and this was in This was in the summer

437
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty, so we were on lockdown. Yep. I

438
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 4: was not yet going through my divorce, but my salon

439
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 4: was closed and I was on medical leave because my

440
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 4: back had I had thrown out my back really bad,

441
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 4: and I didn't have a lot going on. And I

442
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 4: got this phone call that they were like, we want

443
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 4: to do this. Are you interested? I said yes. I

444
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 4: helped gather a lot of the people that are in it,

445
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 4: and we filmed in November of twenty twenty, right after

446
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 4: the election. Was right after the election, and I had

447
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 4: just left my husband and I was living with my

448
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 4: mom with my daughter, and it was really not the

449
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 4: best situation, but I didn't have a lot of options.

450
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 4: And I remember filming and my birthday come or like

451
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 4: my birthday was coming up. It was going to be

452
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 4: my fortieth birthday, and I'm like, I just don't know

453
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 4: what I'm doing with my life. I don't know where

454
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 4: I'm going, Like, you know, I don't have a job,

455
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 4: I don't have a husband, I don't have a future,

456
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 4: Like I don't know what I'm gonna do. You know,

457
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: I can't live with my mother for like live with

458
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 4: my mother forever, because like the trauma of my childhood

459
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 4: was coming back, and I was like, I need an outlet.

460
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: And I'd thought back and I was doing this other

461
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 4: podcast with my friends, and like I said, I'd hit

462
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: the ground running and they were always like, well, we

463
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 4: can't really record today. And I sat and I said,

464
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 4: you know what, I think I was gonna do my

465
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 4: own podcast. Lula Rich was coming out. It had I

466
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 4: knew it was coming because I'd filmed, but it wasn't

467
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 4: going to be out for until the end of the year.

468
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 4: And I thought, this is like the iron is so hot,

469
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 4: Like if you don't strike it now, then you're not

470
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 4: going to do this. Like if you want to do this,

471
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 4: if you want to get your voice out there and

472
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 4: your activism and like start this podcast and like help people,

473
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 4: like you need to ride this wave because there's a

474
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 4: tsunami coming. Because I knew Lula Rich would be amazing

475
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 4: because I knew what had happened, I said, I have to.

476
00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 4: If I'm gonna do what, I'm gonna do it now.

477
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 4: And so Valentine's Day twenty twenty one came around. It

478
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 4: was my first Valentine's Day in the longest that I

479
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 4: can remember that I didn't have a Valentine, and I

480
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, I'll be my own Valentine.

481
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 4: And I downloaded like a pot like it was like

482
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 4: anchor back then, and I was like, I'm just going

483
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 4: to start a podcast. And I just sat down and

484
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 4: I recorded the pilot episode, which was my story, and

485
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 4: then I reached out to a couple friends and I

486
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 4: was like, now I need episode two through four, five

487
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 4: and six. Can somebody help me? And we just started recording.

488
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 4: And at the time, it was therapy, it was commiserating.

489
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 4: It was just getting it out of me so that

490
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 4: it wasn't eating away at me anymore. And I didn't edit.

491
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 4: I didn't I'm sure we it's a hot mess. I

492
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 4: haven't listened to it since twenty twenty one, so it's

493
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 4: it's the proof of my growth. But near the end

494
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 4: of twenty one when Lularch came out, is like the

495
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 4: podcast just went crazy and it just spiked and it

496
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 4: has been like that since, and I really wanted to.

497
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 4: There were a lot of things that as I was

498
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 4: learning about MLM and the connections with cults and different

499
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 4: belief systems and control that there were so many like

500
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 4: subtopics that kept coming up, like evangelicalism and Mormonism and feminism,

501
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 4: toxic patriarchy, different things like this where I'm like, it

502
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 4: keeps coming up, and so then I just said, you

503
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 4: know what, Look, I know the show is called Life

504
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 4: After MLM, but that also means it's my life after MLM.

505
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: And these topics intersect with MLM so much that if

506
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 4: I don't talk about it, I'm doing a disservice to

507
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 4: the people who I'm trying to help, because you might

508
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 4: listen to my show and be like, well, I was

509
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 4: only in an evangelical bolt, but you're gonna hear similarities

510
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 4: or like I experienced realizing I was in a cult

511
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 4: by watching someone else's scientology experience, And I thought, if

512
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 4: I could bring that, if I could bring it and

513
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 4: make it easily consumable with jokes and talking about stuff

514
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 4: that's relatable and giving people permission to fail and giving

515
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 4: people permission to say I've fucked up and be like

516
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 4: me too, party time. Oh well, like then it would

517
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 4: help people because it have helped me. And we just

518
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: we're in season four now. We just had our third

519
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 4: year anniversary and started season four this year, and it

520
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 4: is my full time job now. It is not anything

521
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 4: I ever would have experienced in a million year, Like

522
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: I never would have expected this, and it all brought

523
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 4: me here to be able to do activism and to

524
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 4: talk to cool people and to share stories and to

525
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 4: just be like a cautionary tale and be like, if

526
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: you're going to join an MLM, like I can't stop you,

527
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 4: but at least have some of the information that they

528
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 4: will definitely not give you. Right, were some red flags

529
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 4: to look out for.

530
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 6: Hello, I'm Rabia Jadriy. You may know me as an

531
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 6: attorney and a nonsance advocate from the podcast serial the

532
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 6: host of the hit podcast Undisclosed, or the current co

533
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 6: host of the true crime talk show podcast Robbia and

534
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 6: Ellen Solve the Case. But some of you know me

535
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 6: as the narrator of the storytelling podcast Nighty Night. I

536
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 6: invite you to join me Tuesday for new episodes of

537
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 6: Nighty Night Bedtime Stories to keep you awake now on

538
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 6: podcast one. This new incarnation of Nighty Night is an

539
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 6: anthology of stories that bring to life classic horror stories,

540
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 6: some you're definitely familiar with and others you'll be hearing

541
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 6: for the first time. And at the end of every story,

542
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 6: there will be more creepy, tantalizing tidbits about the story

543
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 6: you just heard, all of it narrated by yours truly.

544
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 6: Starting this Halloween, join me as I tuck you into

545
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 6: bed with stories that will leave you sleepless all night long.

546
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 6: Get new episodes of Nighty Night every Tuesday on podcast

547
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 6: one or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember to rate,

548
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 6: review and spread the word.

549
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: What are some of the red flags to look out for.

550
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, here's the thing. On my show, I like

551
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 4: to talk to such a multitude of people, so sometimes people.

552
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: I just had someone come on my show who was like, look,

553
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 4: I didn't have a bad experience in an MLM, and

554
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 4: I want to tell you my story of how I

555
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 4: figured out it was a scam. And she talks about

556
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 4: how she had a great time, she met her best friend,

557
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 4: she had great like she was just in an EMLM

558
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 4: that paid for more things. So she's like, we had

559
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 4: great conventions and vacations and it was so fun and

560
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 4: I used the product and it was so great. She goes,

561
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 4: I didn't realize how harmful it was until I did

562
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 4: my taxes and she found out she had lost fifteen

563
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 4: thousand dollars in one year on her emils.

564
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: See that's where it gets you, because you were saying

565
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: that even on the cruises that you went on that

566
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: are like free, you're being taxed for them.

567
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 4: Correct, Mmm, oh yeah, nothing's free. Yeah nothing. Yeah, So

568
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 4: it was that kind of thing. So like we'll even

569
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 4: tell stories like that. So I just want people to know.

570
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: But just because like you had a good time doesn't

571
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 4: mean that there's not bad. And also just because it

572
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 4: was horrific doesn't mean that there's not some good. So

573
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 4: I always ask people like the worst and the best thing,

574
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 4: like the end, because I think it's important to take

575
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 4: some positivity away. A lot of people are like I

576
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 4: learned how strong I was, I learned how to not

577
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 4: run a business, so now I know how to run

578
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 4: a business. Things like that, But there are so many

579
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 4: red flags, and I think there's always going to be

580
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 4: like that cultiness, like if you feel culty, like if

581
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 4: you feel like people are controlling you, what you're wearing,

582
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 4: what you're doing, where, how you're spending your time, Like

583
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 4: are you're going to a lot of like late night

584
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 4: meetings so you're missing sleep, Like that's sleep deprivation, whether

585
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 4: or not. It's like obvious or not. If you're only

586
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: getting four hours of sleep because you're going all these

587
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 4: zoom meetings and having to do all these times in meetings.

588
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: Oh well, I'm mostly this is like Amway. Amway meetings

589
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 4: will go to like midnight sometimes wow wow, but you

590
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 4: have to like drive to them, so then you have

591
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 4: to drive home. It's wild some of the stories that

592
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 4: people tell us that it's it's like we'll go down

593
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: like biite model checklists and things and it's just like yep,

594
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 4: that too. Wow.

595
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're exhausting you as one of the red flags.

596
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so many red flags. So red flags. Uh,

597
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 4: having an upline is a real flanage because you means

598
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 4: you're in an MLM. Having somebody control where you spend

599
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: your money. Not having any real business advice would be

600
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 4: a red flag. If you ask any genuine, actual question

601
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 4: that you would expect a normal answer from and you

602
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: get pushed back, that's a red flag. If somebody's asking

603
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 4: you to take out credit cards or sell your things

604
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 4: or anything like any means necessary to get the money

605
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 4: to invest in something that you don't really need. Like

606
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 4: that's so scientology. That's so like, do you have a

607
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 4: Grandma that's about to die, that you might be able

608
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: to borrow money from, Like it's so predatory. So anything

609
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: that gives you the ick like that is a red flag.

610
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 4: But the problem with MLM and a lot of colts

611
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 4: is the moment you walk through the door, they hand

612
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: you rose colored glasses and they make it seem so

613
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: wonderful and amazing, and so the red flags when you're

614
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: wearing rose colored glasses just look like regular flags. So

615
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: it's really, really really important to take those glasses off

616
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 4: and to have like a little bit more of a

617
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: critical eye to ask questions. And again, like I said,

618
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: if you're getting pushed back, like pushback is usually the

619
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 4: biggest telltale sign that there's something weird is going on,

620
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 4: because it's you should be able to like your shit,

621
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 4: should be able to hold up to a little bit

622
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: of scrutiny, you know what I mean, Like you should

623
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: I should be able to be like, well what about this?

624
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: And you should be able to be like, I'm so

625
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 4: glad you asked here's the answer, as opposed to being

626
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 4: like why are you asking that? Who have you been

627
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 4: talking to? Right? If they don't tell you the name

628
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 4: of the company, that's a red flag. Amway will literally

629
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 4: send you through like they call it the process, and

630
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 4: they'll send you through like two or three meetings before

631
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 4: they ever mentioned that it's Amway. So you think you

632
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: just met like a cool couple or like a nice

633
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 4: lady in town who's interested in what you do and

634
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 4: wants to have coffee and spend time with you, and

635
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, your fourth meeting, they're like, whiteboard,

636
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 4: let me introduce the Amway. And you're like, wait, what,

637
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: So it's weird stuff like that, Like I'm telling you

638
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 4: if you if you have to pay to be a

639
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 4: part of a job as a red flag, and it's

640
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 4: not just like buying non slips shoes because you're working

641
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: at a restaurant. I'm talking about like you have to

642
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 4: buy all this inventory and you're encouraged to buy more,

643
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: and you're told like there's lots of future faking, like, oh,

644
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 4: you invest it now because a year from now you're

645
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 4: gonna be making so much money that like the couple

646
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 4: hundred dollars you spent today is nothing. There's a lot

647
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 4: of that future faking. There's a lot of promises, there's

648
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 4: a lot of like empty, hollow nothing news makes me so.

649
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: I Mean, one of the things you said that's so

650
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: interesting is like you're looking at red flags from like

651
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: through rose colored glasses, which is very poetic.

652
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: Yes, but I can't take credit. That's from BoJack Horsemen.

653
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: Okay, that's true.

654
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 7: But like those rose colored glasses aren't just like life

655
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 7: is perfect whatever. It's like most people have just gone

656
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 7: through something super traumatic and they're just like trying to

657
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 7: make the best of something.

658
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. The biggest red flag And like the

659
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 4: biggest thing that I tell people if if you're even

660
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 4: leaving your house for the day, know what your vulnerabilities

661
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 4: are in that moment. Know what your vulnerabilities are when

662
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 4: you go into public you know, is your skin bothering

663
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 4: you that day and you feel like you have an

664
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: acne breakout that somebody might be like, oh my god,

665
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 4: I have the perfect skincare for you. Are you going

666
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: out and wishing that you have more money, because every

667
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: single MLM can promise you that, Like what you're sharing

668
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 4: on social media, if you're complaining about certain things, like

669
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 4: there's somebody who has been trained on your friends list,

670
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: multiple somebodies who have been trained by the company that

671
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 4: they're in to look for your posts of you complaining

672
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 4: about your money or your hair, or your diet or

673
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 4: your whatever. Because emlms sell everything. They sell workout tapes,

674
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 4: they sell meal replacements, they sell clothes, they sell skincare,

675
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 4: they sell wellness, they sell cure alls. Like, so if

676
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: you have anything anything you're complaining about, so knowing what

677
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: your vulnerabilities are, knowing who to share those vulnerabilities with,

678
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 4: knowing what to say and what not to say to

679
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: protect yourself because you are a constant, walking like target

680
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: for these people. Because that's what we're We're not told

681
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 4: go out and find someone who looks real desperate. We're

682
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 4: told all these people that you love, they're going through

683
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 4: tough things too, and this can bless their lives the

684
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 4: way it blessed yours. And yes, that's exactly what I

685
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 4: want to do for somebody that I love. So it

686
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 4: doesn't seem predatory to anybody, but the company, like the

687
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 4: company is what they're doing. But for us, we think

688
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 4: we're being so kind and we're just I just really

689
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 4: wanted to share that lipstick. I just really wanted to

690
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 4: give you this oil blend because you were complaining about

691
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 4: your headaches. Everything is a way in to commodify your

692
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: relationships in a multi level marketing company or a commercial

693
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 4: cult or a capitalist cult, or whatever you want to

694
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: call them.

695
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: Right, anytime there's any want or any need that is

696
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: capable of being filled, there's someone out there to filip

697
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: for you.

698
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the Guru complex. Yeah, it's like I've got

699
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 4: all the questions and all the answers and all the solutions.

700
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 4: Just give me all your money and I'll save you. Right,

701
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 4: And people.

702
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 8: Are so broken they don't want to have therapy. I'm like,

703
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 8: just get therapy. It's al much cheaper. They don't want

704
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 8: to do that because of the stigmas. They think that

705
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 8: they can solve things and then they get stuck in

706
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 8: this stuff and they get even taken even worse.

707
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's it's really insidious.

708
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: I just want to hear a little bit more about

709
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: the family because they were Mormon, correct, there's still more

710
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: so they're Mormon, and like this is a family affair

711
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: and they have like a nephew who's djaying all these

712
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: trips and stuff forgot. Can you just talk us through

713
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of the culture, And like the trips

714
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: there were ties to Disney or something like, can you

715
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: just like.

716
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 5: What world are we in?

717
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 4: And this Lula Roux, it's it's a colorful like jellybean world,

718
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 4: like it doesn't exist, it's not real. So the DJ

719
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 4: guy that was Sam, he's in Lula Rich. He's the

720
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 4: guy that has the hole in his pants. He's not

721
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 4: my favorite person. I don't have a lot of like

722
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 4: out and proud enemies, but Sam Schultz knows it and

723
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 4: I am not.

724
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: A fan of that man for multiple reasons, his musical

725
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: taste being one of them for me.

726
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 4: He was very heavily involved in the promotion of the

727
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 4: Raw Raw Cis Boomba Sisterhood party aspect of Lulaou, which

728
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 4: got a lot of people in I'm not gonna lie.

729
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 4: Sam knows how to throw a really killer party. Every

730
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: single party that I ever went to that he planned

731
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: was great. We had parties at like water parks. There

732
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: was a Katy Perry concert like it was legit, like

733
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: it was fun. Yeah, I'm like, I credit where credit

734
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 4: is due. But he's grifter. He I call him the

735
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 4: Billy McFarland of LULUO. Yeah, because he is. He's just

736
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 4: a grifter. He's always got some sort of scam he's

737
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 4: always got some sort of restitution he's paying off. He's

738
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 4: literally just the Billy McFarland of Luluou. It's all family.

739
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 4: They there was this one thing. Okay, here's the weirdest

740
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: thing about the documentary. I've only seen it three times.

741
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 4: We just recently watched it on discord again and I

742
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 4: was like.

743
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 8: Oh, yeah, I forgot I said that that's fun.

744
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 4: But there's this part in the movie where they talk

745
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 4: about how two of their family members married each other

746
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 4: like siblings. Oh, and it was this whole viral thing

747
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 4: where people were like, did they just say that their

748
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 4: son married their daughter?

749
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: What?

750
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: And so I want to tell this story because I

751
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: think the truth is creepier than the lie that they perpetuated.

752
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 7: Great.

753
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: So in the documentary they say that it's so funny

754
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 4: because like our daughter married our son. The woman was

755
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 4: never the daughter and the man was an adopted son,

756
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 4: so they are not biologically related in any way. This

757
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 4: the adopted son was adopted as a baby and raised

758
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 4: as their son, you know, like a regular adoption. He

759
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,479
Speaker 4: went away when he went to college. He went away

760
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 4: to college. She was in Romania, and while he was

761
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: away at college, she came to live with them and

762
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: go to school and lived with them in California. I

763
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 4: don't know where he was where the other where Michael

764
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 4: was going to school. But this woman, Anna moved from

765
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 4: the from Romania and came to live with the Stidhams

766
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 4: while Michael was out going to college somewhere else, and

767
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 4: she lived there when he came back to town at Christmas.

768
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 4: Is when they first met. They are adults at this point,

769
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 4: They were not raised together. They are not actually married,

770
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 4: and Anna was never officially adopted. She was just like, oh,

771
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 4: she's our adopted daughter. How people will say she's our

772
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 4: adopted daughter. They were never ever officially adopted or legally

773
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 4: adopted it at all. I believe she was like nineteen

774
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: when she first came over, So it was not a

775
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 4: thing like that at all. It was literally in a

776
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 4: broad thing like an educational thing. They meet, they fall

777
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 4: in love, they end up dating, they end up getting married.

778
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 4: In the movie, they claim that their son married their daughter,

779
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 4: and on the outside, sure, that's what that is. But

780
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 4: the fact that they make up this weird our son

781
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 4: married our daughter story when that's not actually what it is.

782
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 4: When it's our adopted son married a student like in

783
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 4: a broad student that came to visit who we claimed

784
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 4: was our daughter, and they turned it into this weird,

785
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 4: quirky incest Mormon incest story. Like it's weird, do you

786
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like the truth is really kind

787
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 4: of a cute story, right, but they've now made it

788
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 4: creepy and sexualized this relationship before it was ever like that.

789
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 4: But it's just weird. So for me when I saw that,

790
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 4: I was like, but that's not even what happened. The

791
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 4: fact that they're making it into incest is weirder, yes,

792
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: than if it actually was that, because it's like it's

793
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 4: just weird. Yes, So they were not actually related.

794
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 2: I mean, they just think they're being charming or something.

795
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: It's just weird.

796
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: It's just they like like they had a like plane,

797
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: don't don't they have like a private plane?

798
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 4: They did, They had a jet. That's why they like

799
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 4: jet jet.

800
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 5: Like this world was fucking crazy.

801
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: Yeah. They would spend all of their profits on like

802
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 4: property and jets and things. So they would they would

803
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: buy like a house and then they would turn they

804
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 4: would open up an LLC for that house, and then

805
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 4: the LLC would own the house. So Lula Oa doesn't

806
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 4: own the house. The Stidems don't own the house, like

807
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 4: some random LLC called like main Street owns the house

808
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 4: on Main Street. And then the LLC that owned their

809
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: plane was named after the tail numbers of the plane.

810
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 4: It was like, I'm nine three seven four L four

811
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 4: to a something. Lawsuits to protect everything absolutely, to compartmentalize

812
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 4: everything into shell companies so if anything were to go down,

813
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: nothing is connected.

814
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 5: Dude, do you think that they ever oh sorry, like their.

815
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 4: Cars, their cars are all owned by individual LACA twenty

816
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 4: five LLCs or something. It's wild. Do you think that

817
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 4: that we would find these by like googling the address

818
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 4: on like open Corporates or whatever, and we'd be like,

819
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 4: I found another one, and it would be named after

820
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 4: someone in the family, so we'd be like, it's this person,

821
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 4: Like this is definitely this because this is a name

822
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 4: of one of their kids. Like it was. It was

823
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 4: wild just uncovering all of that.

824
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if you think that there's a was

825
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: ever a plan, because I know that the husband's got

826
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: thrown under the bus of this whole thing a lot

827
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: of times where they would be like women would be

828
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: pressured because it was mostly women selling to be like, hey,

829
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: you should quit your job and just help me sell

830
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: these leggings and we're going to make a ton of money.

831
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: And sometimes it would work for a bit and some

832
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: times it would fall apart. But like you said, after

833
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: six months when your husband wasn't on board, they're like

834
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: you should leave him? Like do you think that they

835
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: ever had all this property? And we're like, maybe we'll

836
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: get a bunch of sellers to like live together away

837
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: from their husbands.

838
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 3: And I don't know where they going full cult like

839
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: going communes.

840
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, like common legging compan.

841
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 4: They do have like a ranch in Wyoming. If any

842
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 4: of their properties would be colty, I would I would

843
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 4: think it would be the ranch. I never got to

844
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 4: go there because they got it like right after I

845
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 4: started mouthing up, So why couldn't you get off post ranch?

846
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 5: Well we should go undercover.

847
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 4: Oh my god. They and then they made everybody when

848
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 4: they would go to the ranch, they made everybody bring

849
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 4: something and then they would do a branding ceremony and

850
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 4: everybody would have to brand the item that they brought.

851
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 4: It was very nexium. I was like, why are we

852
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 4: branding things? Like what is happening? So it got really

853
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 4: coldy branding it with like a cow with a branding iron. Yeah,

854
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 4: it was like branding iron.

855
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: Something about Dan and Keith Nary Strike is like I

856
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: would love to lock them in the same room for

857
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: a couple of months.

858
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 3: I would watch that movie, so.

859
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: I would watch that volleyball game.

860
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's they're a very dark family.

861
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: And I also remember the cousin would like send people

862
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 1: pictures of his money and it would be like reverse

863
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: Google search it and it would just be fake stacks

864
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: of not his money. It's just like so ridiculous, and like,

865
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, to an extent, it's like the perfect righteous

866
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: Gemstones type of TV show about just oh it's totally

867
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: righteous first family, but like it's it's ruining people's lives.

868
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: So you know, whatever whatever it takes to stop them

869
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: is you're doing the quote unquote Lord's work, you know.

870
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even focus on them that

871
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 4: much anymore now. I'm just really focused on the industry

872
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 4: as a whole. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, come after me.

873
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: Once you started talking to other people from other MLMs

874
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: and kind of expanding, like were there patterns that you

875
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: saw that you had that had never occurred to you before.

876
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 2: Were there things that you learned about your own experience?

877
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: You know, I guess obviously the cult parallels, but like

878
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: just just kind of gathering all these stories, what's some

879
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: knowledge that you feel like you gained from that.

880
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure a ton, but.

881
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 4: You know, there's something that people in an MLM say

882
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 4: all the time when you're like exposing MLMs and people

883
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 4: who are like I'll be like, oh, my time in

884
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 4: lulorel blah blah blah. And then someone will comment and

885
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 4: they'll be like, my MLEM isn't like that. We don't,

886
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 4: we don't do that in my MLM. My MLEM is different.

887
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 4: And they say that, and I know inherently they're not,

888
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 4: because they're all founded from the same structure, which is

889
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 4: that Amway from nineteen seventy nine. So I know that

890
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: they're not different, but they'll say things like my MLEM

891
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 4: is different. And what I've earned by talking to I

892
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 4: have two hundred and twenty seven episodes and not all

893
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 4: of them are MLM, but most of them are. And

894
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 4: what I've learned from talking to hundreds and hundreds of

895
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 4: people is that they are all the same. Yeah, and

896
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 4: that they all have these weird things, and they might

897
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 4: call it something else, so they have a different name

898
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 4: for it, but they're all the same. And people will

899
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 4: tell me these stories and they'll be like, oh, roberta

900
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 4: blah blah blah blah blah, and I'll be like, yep,

901
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 4: like that's an MLM thing like that. That's not the

902
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,479
Speaker 4: first time I've heard that. That's not the first time

903
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 4: that somebody has said that that has happened, or that

904
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 4: that's what's going on. And a lot of times the

905
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 4: people that I talk to, like they haven't done the

906
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 4: research of understanding that it's like this everywhere. So they're

907
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 4: telling me about their experience and their MLM and they're

908
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 4: saying this horrible thing, and I'm going, yeah, no, like

909
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 4: that's that's a part of it, Like that's part of

910
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 4: why the MLM succeeds, like these specific instances or these

911
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: specific the way that they treat you or the way

912
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 4: that this happens. And so I just think it's interesting

913
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 4: that you would think that talking to so many different

914
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 4: people like that, you would get a variety of stories,

915
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 4: and I do, but there are so many things, and

916
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 4: I think it's kind of almost become a joke with

917
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 4: the people that listen where we're like that's an MLM thing,

918
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 4: like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's not surprising at all,

919
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 4: Like I could have called it. And it's funny because

920
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 4: now I know so much about so many different MLMs

921
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 4: and like the certain like Orwellian word that this MLM

922
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 4: uses versus this MLM. So when I get tagged in

923
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 4: videos on TikTok of people being like I don't know

924
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 4: what this is, but they said blah blah blah blah blah,

925
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 4: and then I get to meet their mentor, I'm like

926
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 4: it's Amway send Like I'm like, it's Amway. I know

927
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 4: that Amway talks about this and Primerica talks about this,

928
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 4: and so it's like I've learned some of their language,

929
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 4: and because it is so similar, I'm able to like

930
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 4: discern what these things are. Just in like a random

931
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 4: TikTok video of somebody be like, somebody stop me at Target,

932
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 4: I was like, it's probably am I.

933
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 5: You would like a secret language, like I just.

934
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:11,399
Speaker 4: Know their mo so well, yeah, because I've heard the truth, right,

935
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 4: because what we see if we get stopped at Target

936
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 4: is what they want us to see. But the stories

937
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 4: that I'm telling are the people that did that that

938
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 4: feel remorse, who are like, this is what I did,

939
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 4: and this is why I did it, and this is

940
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: how I did it, and like it's just really interesting

941
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 4: to get confirmation of those things because I know it's happening,

942
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 4: and I can see it happening, but then to have

943
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: those conversations and you know, I'm not surprised it happens

944
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 4: all the time. It's really really really fascinating to be like, no,

945
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: this is literally a machine, Like it is a plug

946
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 4: and play machine. You put in what you want and

947
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 4: it spits it out on the other side. It's slightly different,

948
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 4: but it's all the same. And I think that's probably

949
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 4: one of the most interesting similarities is just how similar

950
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 4: they are.

951
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: Right, We find that too, Like once you kind of

952
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 2: know a few cult stories, you kind of know all

953
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: the cult stories.

954
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: The playbooks are the same.

955
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: We're really like sims where you just humans or you

956
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 2: just like type in the code of like what to do,

957
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: and it will influence a human's behavior a particular way

958
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: if they're at the if they're primed for it in

959
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: the right way at the right time.

960
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: Which is so depressing that.

961
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: You can just kind of you can just do that,

962
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 2: you can just manipulate people.

963
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: But but yeah, they all do the same thing.

964
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, antidote seems to be just information and community, right, Yeah,

965
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 1: and that's yeah, you know, that's how people can unsem themselves.

966
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the community as an antidote to controlling community.

967
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

968
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: Absolutely. And I'll tell people, you know, when I get

969
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 4: pushed back and they're like you just seem like a

970
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 4: bitter hater, and I'll be like, Okay, well that's fine.

971
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 4: I'll be here when you need me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

972
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 4: I'll still be here six months. And you know, they

973
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 4: might give me like a I'm not gonna need you,

974
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 4: I'm gonna block you. But guess who comes back, and

975
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 4: guess who emails me? Or the people that are listening

976
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 4: to the show going, I'm in an MLM and the

977
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 4: stories you're telling are so triggering. Yes, all of this

978
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 4: is happening to me. I didn't know that this was

979
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 4: a thing. How do I get out? How do I, like,

980
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 4: you know, distance myself from this. I've got people who

981
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 4: are like I'm at the top of the pyramid, like

982
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 4: I'm one of the mega huns you speak of. I

983
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 4: didn't know, like how do I get out of this?

984
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 4: Like my husband quit his job, how do we do this?

985
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 4: And talking to people on the back end and saying, Okay,

986
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 4: let's get your husband back into the workforce, and like,

987
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 4: let's reconvene in three months and see where you guys

988
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 4: are at. She's like, Okay, I'm not gonna recruit any

989
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 4: more people. I'm not gonna buy any more inventory I

990
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 4: don't need. I'm only gonna sell what I've got. Okay. Cool.

991
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: I'm like, do your profit and loss. And I'm like

992
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,439
Speaker 4: talking to these people on the back end because they're

993
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 4: seeing it. But like most cults, you can't just decide, oh,

994
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna leave today, you know, like scientology, you

995
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 4: can't get out. You're in the a base in the

996
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 4: middle of the desert. You need somebody to come pick

997
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 4: you up or something. And so there's a lot of

998
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 4: this where people that are not involved in colts don't understand.

999
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 4: They're like, how are you so dumb one to join

1000
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 4: and two to not just walk out the door. And

1001
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 4: it's like, it's not that easy. That's not what happens.

1002
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 4: You don't just randomly join a cult and randomly leave

1003
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 4: a cult. It is so innocuous and slow and as

1004
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 4: slow as you get into it where it feels normal,

1005
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 4: like frogs being boiled, it's the same way you have

1006
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 4: to get out. And you know there are people who

1007
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 4: will message me and say, hey, I've been listening for

1008
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 4: like the last year and just like silent and really

1009
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 4: taking everything in and I just quit my MLM today

1010
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 4: and I wanted you to be the first person to know.

1011
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 4: And I respond, oh my god, congratulations, It's so wonderful,

1012
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 4: and that you know, it's always an open invitationist if

1013
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: you ever want to tell your story, whenever you're ready,

1014
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 4: you dictate when you're ready to tell the story, like,

1015
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 4: let's not be hasty. You'll always have a space and

1016
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 4: to tell these stories and to connect with people who

1017
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 4: are like your show is the reason I figured this out,

1018
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 4: or I heard your show. I heard you on this

1019
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 4: show and that led me here because it was so similar.

1020
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 4: It's wild and then the opposite of people hearing me

1021
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 4: on a show and going to listen because I'm on it,

1022
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 4: and then connecting with a different cult podcast or scam podcast.

1023
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 4: And I had one woman realize that she had been

1024
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 4: medically abused as a child because my friend Andrea Dunlop

1025
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 4: from the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me about munchaus and

1026
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 4: by proxy, I'd come on my show to talk about

1027
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 4: child medical abuse and she was like, oh, this is

1028
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 4: so fascinating and started listening to Andrew's podcast and within

1029
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 4: a few episodes it was like, Oh my god, this

1030
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 4: is this is what I went through as a child,

1031
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 4: like this, this is what happened to me. And she

1032
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 4: then reached out to me and said, I want to

1033
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: tell my story because you were the person that was

1034
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 4: the catalyst that pushed me in my sixties to realizing

1035
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 4: that this is what happened to me as a child.

1036
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 4: So it's so connected and fascinating to talk to people

1037
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 4: in similar things and it's just it's so full circle

1038
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 4: and it's so reward and so incredible, and it just

1039
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 4: because I didn't have anything else to do during COVID,

1040
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean?

1041
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, what a secret blessing?

1042
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah right. I was like, look at what we've done.

1043
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah.

1044
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: It's also just impressive how you were able to take

1045
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: those experiences in the midst of a divorce and not

1046
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: having stability in your life and like turn it into

1047
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: this whole you know, spinning it into gold. I mean

1048
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 2: it's just really impressive and.

1049
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 4: Thank you and admirable and it's just fun. I mean's

1050
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 4: just a really fun job.

1051
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: How does everybody find you? Where can they find you

1052
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: and listen and join the conversation?

1053
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 4: So I'm everywhere. We are really good This year. We're

1054
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 4: really ramping up the community portion of it, because community

1055
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 4: is so hard to find when you're leaving these sort

1056
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 4: of groups. So we've got We're back on YouTube. We

1057
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 4: do like video podcasts sometimes and premieres and fun stuff.

1058
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 4: So if you're a YouTube person, you're on YouTube. We're

1059
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 4: on Instagram, we're on TikTok, we're on discord. You can

1060
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 4: find the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Uh. The

1061
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 4: podcast is Life after MLM. We have Life after mlmpod

1062
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 4: dot com with all the links all to join everything,

1063
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 4: merch everything you could possibly want for the podcast, and

1064
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 4: then everything else At Robertablevins dot com. You can find

1065
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 4: me there. Really I'm easy to find find me. Follow me, like,

1066
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 4: send me a message, leave a comment and be like, hey,

1067
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 4: you know I heard you. I heard you on the

1068
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 4: podcast and connect because it's just a really wonderful growing

1069
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 4: community and we just we just keep doing this red

1070
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 4: flag education and seeing it in all these similar groups

1071
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 4: and comparing our experiences with our red flag instances with

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Speaker 4: others and connecting and finding commonality I think is so important.

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Speaker 4: So it's been, it's been really kind of a blessing

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Speaker 4: and a wonderful adventure.

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Speaker 1: Every time we talk about MLMs, the more I realize

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00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: how susceptible we all are to them. I still to

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00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: this day, I'm kind of like I could still get

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00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: see myself getting sucked in. So the more, you know,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending another week with us.

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Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again next week, and

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00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out FORRAD

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Speaker 1: five and never ever trust me.

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Speaker 2: Hi Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp

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00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 2: and Steve Delemator.

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00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 9: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

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00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 9: I'm Uhla Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

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00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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Speaker 9: Remember to rate and review and spread the word