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Speaker 1: Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and hello everyone from Aspen. We

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Speaker 1: put in some miles for the pot this year, haven't we, Brian.

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Speaker 1: We have. We were hardly back from our tapings in

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Speaker 1: London when the mountains and the greenery of Colorado beckoned us.

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Speaker 1: That's right. More specifically, the Aspen Ideas Festival came a calling,

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Speaker 1: and I love coming here. I've done it for several years.

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Speaker 1: Not only is the setting magnificent, but the conversations are

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Speaker 1: so stimulating. You feel much smarter when you leave here

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Speaker 1: than when you came. People like Steve Case talking about

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Speaker 1: his efforts to really expand the startup revolution in Middle America,

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Speaker 1: to John Carey, the former Secretary of State to Toronto, Burke,

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Speaker 1: who of course is the founder of the Me Too movement,

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Speaker 1: and everyone in between. It's really such a fun event.

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Speaker 1: And today we're bringing you one of those conversations because Katie,

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Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to sit down with James Comey.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't know who that is, you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be listening to this podcast. That's not true. He's a

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Speaker 1: former director of the FBI who has been embroiled in

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Speaker 1: controversy now for about the past two years. Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: believes that he cost her the election. Many of people

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Speaker 1: agree with her on that, and President Trump, who fired

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Speaker 1: Comy last spring, has said, well tweeted, of course, that

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Speaker 1: Comy will go down as the worst all caps FBI

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Speaker 1: director in history by far exclamation point. That may be

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Speaker 1: the only thing that Trump and Hillary actually agree on

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Speaker 1: every same time. Other people like Senator John McCain have

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Speaker 1: praised Komy for his integrity, and we know that during

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Speaker 1: his tenures FBI Director, Comy was very respected by the

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Speaker 1: rank and file agents who served under him. Well. Since

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Speaker 1: being fired by President Trump without warning last May, he's

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Speaker 1: been teaching at Howard University and has come out with

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Speaker 1: a best selling memoir called A Higher Loyalty. It tells

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Speaker 1: the story of his life, how he became interested in

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Speaker 1: law and law enforcement, and of course, what it was

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Speaker 1: like working in the chaotic early days of the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: I was excited to talk to Mr Comey because just

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Speaker 1: last month, the Justice Department issued a five page report

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Speaker 1: highly critical of him and the FBI during the two

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Speaker 1: thousand sixteen presidential election. Of course, we should note that

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Speaker 1: if we learned anything from his congressional testimony, Comey is

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Speaker 1: a pretty disciplined guy. He knows how to say what

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Speaker 1: he wants to say and nothing more. But of course

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Speaker 1: that didn't stop me from trying. So here's my conversation

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Speaker 1: with James Coomy. I feel like Sarah Palin when I say,

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Speaker 1: can I call you Jim Can? I? You've known me

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Speaker 1: since I was like six to all right, seriously, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for being here. We've got a lot

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Speaker 1: to cover, so let's get right to it. An interesting

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Speaker 1: thing happened towards the end of your media blitz. The

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Speaker 1: Justice Department's Inspector General of former colleague of yours name

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Speaker 1: Michael Horowitz, issued a five page report about your actions

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Speaker 1: as head of the FBI during the two thousand sixteen campaign.

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Speaker 1: It was highly critical, as you know, let me read

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Speaker 1: you some excerpts. Your press conference in July of two

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Speaker 1: thousand sixteen was quote on an extraordinary and insubordinate thing

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Speaker 1: to do. Quote. We found none of Mr Comey's reasons

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Speaker 1: to be a persuasive basis for deviating from well established

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Speaker 1: department policies. You engage in your own quote subjective ad

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Speaker 1: hoc decision making. The report also said you're October letter

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Speaker 1: to Congress announcing a reopen Clinton investigation was a quote

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Speaker 1: serious error in judgment. Take us back to the day

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Speaker 1: you were reading this report. What was that like? It

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Speaker 1: was painful. I had encouraged the report when I was director,

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Speaker 1: and even after I got fired. I wanted them to

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Speaker 1: do it because I think accountability is incredibly important to

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Speaker 1: the institution, especially and reading it was painful for a

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Speaker 1: couple of reasons. First, it was a bit of a

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Speaker 1: it's a trauma to go back through one of the

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Speaker 1: most painful things I've ever been through as a leader.

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Speaker 1: And then it's painful to read yourself being criticized, even

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Speaker 1: though I expected to be criticized. It was painful. And

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Speaker 1: let's talk about these three big decisions you made. I

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Speaker 1: know you've addressed them all during your numerous interviews, but

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Speaker 1: the IG report really did breathe new life into the controversy.

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Speaker 1: So July five, two thousand and sixteen, you held a

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Speaker 1: press conference announcing you were not recommending charges be brought

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Speaker 1: against Secretary Clinton, that quote, no reasonable prosecutor would bring

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Speaker 1: such a case. But you also said that Clinton was

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Speaker 1: quote extremely careless in her handling of emails. My question

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Speaker 1: is this, what were you doing making this announcement the

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Speaker 1: first place. You were not the attorney general, you weren't

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Speaker 1: even a prosecutor. Why was it appropriate for you, as

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Speaker 1: the investigator to make that announcement. That's a great question.

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Speaker 1: I was doing something I never could have imagined, because

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Speaker 1: normally the responsibility for announcing the closing of an investigation

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Speaker 1: and offering transparency, which is done in cases of extraordinary

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Speaker 1: public interest. For example in Ferguson, we did a public

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Speaker 1: report there, but it's always the attorney general that announces,

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Speaker 1: and the FBI director is typically standing next to the

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Speaker 1: attorney general. The reason I did it here was I

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Speaker 1: thought it was between two options, offering transparency separately or

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Speaker 1: offering it standing next to the attorney general, the one

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Speaker 1: least likely to do lasting damage to the institutions? Was

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Speaker 1: this bad option? Not this bad option? And I'm not

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Speaker 1: picking on Loretta Lynch by saying that, but there were

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Speaker 1: a number of things that had happened that led me

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Speaker 1: to believe, and reasonable people I knew at the time

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Speaker 1: could see it differently, but led me to believe that

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Speaker 1: it will be very difficult for her to credibly announce

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Speaker 1: the completion of an investigation of one of the two

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Speaker 1: candidates for president of the United States, the candidate from

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Speaker 1: the party, the same party that she was in, and

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Speaker 1: President Obama. But there were other prosecutors who could have

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Speaker 1: done that. Well, no, not the way it was set

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Speaker 1: up Loretta had it was. I don't I assume folks

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Speaker 1: know some of this background. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: controversy during the final week of the investigation where she

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Speaker 1: had had a meeting with Bill Clinton on an airplane,

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Speaker 1: and it was all kinds of storm about whether that

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Speaker 1: was fatally compromised her. All this kind of business. And

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Speaker 1: I had no doubt that Loretta was a person of principle,

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Speaker 1: but I worried a whole lot about the public perception

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Speaker 1: that the investigation was not done credibly. And so she announced,

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Speaker 1: without talking to me or Sally Yates, that she was

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Speaker 1: not going to step out of the investigation, but she

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Speaker 1: would accept my recommendation and that of the career prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know what option I had then, besides

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Speaker 1: choosing either to give her the traditional thing, the norm,

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Speaker 1: or do something I'd never imagined before, which has announced

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Speaker 1: the recommendation. She said she would accept the career prosecutors

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Speaker 1: right right, So why not let them, and you know

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Speaker 1: they would not being able to announce anything. Well, you

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Speaker 1: told the Justice Department about the press conference after the

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Speaker 1: meet had been notified, and you didn't tell them what

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Speaker 1: you were going to say. A friend of mine who's

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Speaker 1: a very respected former federal prosecutor, says, the only reason

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Speaker 1: not to fully inform the Internity General was that you

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Speaker 1: knew you were doing something wrong and you didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be stopped. I'm curious to hear your reaction to that.

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Speaker 1: Only the second part of that's accurate. When I first

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Speaker 1: read the words in subordination and the Inspector Generals report,

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Speaker 1: actually had an emotional reaction like are you kidding me?

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Speaker 1: She announced she would accept my recommendation. But I actually

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Speaker 1: think it's fair criticism because I was intentionally not telling

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Speaker 1: her what I was going to say, and a superior

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Speaker 1: in a normal circumstance would expect that, So I think

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Speaker 1: that was fair. I wasn't wasn't not telling her because

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Speaker 1: I thought I was doing something wrong. I thought, and

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Speaker 1: honestly I still think, between the two bad options, it

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Speaker 1: was the one that was best suited to protect the institutions.

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Speaker 1: But I was doing it because I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: give her the opportunity to stop me, because if she

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Speaker 1: had issued an order don't do it, I would have

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Speaker 1: followed that order. And so the second part of what

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Speaker 1: your friend said is fair. The first part is not.

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Speaker 1: You said you wanted to be transparent to make sure

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Speaker 1: the FBI kept its credibility. But almost any time someone

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Speaker 1: is investigated, you come up with damaging information about or

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Speaker 1: you can come up with damaging information about that person.

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Speaker 1: It's highly unusual for prosecutors, much less investigators, to share

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Speaker 1: that information if they're declining to prosecute. I'm not a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but I understand that's why they call it prosecutorial discretion,

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Speaker 1: not law enforcement discretion. So why did you do it?

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. As I said, the norm is

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Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, with the FBI standing next to them,

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Speaker 1: announces the closure of an investigation. It's not true that

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Speaker 1: it never happens that transparency is offered when the investigation

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Speaker 1: of prosecutions decline. It's done when the public interest requires it.

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Speaker 1: And and I don't think there's a serious argument that

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Speaker 1: the public interests didn't require some transparency here. I did

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Speaker 1: it because I stared at the two options. If I

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Speaker 1: do the normal thing stand next to the Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: A corrosive doubt will creep in about whether this was

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Speaker 1: a political hit job to can an investigation of one

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Speaker 1: of the two candidates for president of the United States,

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Speaker 1: and that will be fed by the fact the President

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Speaker 1: Obama has already twice said there's no they're there. The

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Speaker 1: Attorney General has met with Bill Clinton again. I don't

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Speaker 1: think she's anything and proper, but reasonable people forget partisan

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Speaker 1: wing nuts. Reasonable people could have a doubt about what's

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Speaker 1: going on with the Attorney General right before she announces

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Speaker 1: the closure of this investigation, meeting privately with Secretary Clinton's husband.

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Speaker 1: And so my thinking was, Okay, there's two options. This

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Speaker 1: one is much worse for the institutions of justice. I

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Speaker 1: can spend some of my personal credibility because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: viewed as a partisan and the FBI s and by

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Speaker 1: doing that protect the institution. I knew this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be terrible for me personally, because I knew reasonable people

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Speaker 1: could see it differently and say the things that they've said.

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Speaker 1: But I thought, as between the two, the FBI offering

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Speaker 1: transparency separately, is the is the result best calculated to

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Speaker 1: maintain the faith and comp and to the American people

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Speaker 1: and end the investigation in a credible way, which we did.

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Speaker 1: I thought, But why if your intentions were so noble

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Speaker 1: as you believe your actions were, have you been so

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Speaker 1: roundly criticized by just about everyone. Yeah? Yeah, And it's

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Speaker 1: funny you say that. I don't. Actually, Sometimes people say

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Speaker 1: when everybody's mad at you, it means you're right. No,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. It could be you're completely wrong. I don't

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Speaker 1: know for sure. I think people that have taken the

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Speaker 1: time to put themselves in my shoes, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about October, which is a much more

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Speaker 1: difficult decision, and stare at the options I stared at.

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Speaker 1: I would say, as the Inspector General did. I disagree

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Speaker 1: with the results, but I understand why he did what

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Speaker 1: he did and if people take the time to do that.

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Speaker 1: The most important thing about the Inspector General's report, I

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Speaker 1: believe for the Institution is we made the decisions in

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Speaker 1: a political way. We were trying to and honestly, I've

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Speaker 1: stared at this a thousand times. I would still do

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Speaker 1: the same thing because doing the normal thing norms produced

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Speaker 1: predictable results in the normal situation. This is a five

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Speaker 1: year flood. The Obama Justice Department, of which I'm a part,

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Speaker 1: is investigating the Democratic Canadate for President of the United

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Speaker 1: States is about to decline a criminal case on the

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Speaker 1: eve of the conventions. How do you do that and

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Speaker 1: maintain the faith and confidence of the American people? So

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Speaker 1: is that really your job? Is that your job to

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Speaker 1: decide how to maintain the faith and confidence of the

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Speaker 1: American people? Is that within your purview? Absolutely? When you

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Speaker 1: are the leader of one of the institutions of justice,

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Speaker 1: you must care about that deeply, because the entire institution

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Speaker 1: rests upon the faith and confidence of the American people.

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Speaker 1: When the FBI rises in a courtroom or in Congress,

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Speaker 1: in a cookout, they must be seen as independent in

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Speaker 1: American life and must be trusted as people who care

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Speaker 1: only about the facts. And so, despite the way you

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Speaker 1: were raised, I'm sure you're raised the same way my

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Speaker 1: mother said, you can't care what other people think. When

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Speaker 1: you're director of the FBI. You have to because you

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Speaker 1: run a public institution. So transparency is incredibly important. I

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Speaker 1: believe the American people were due transparency here, fair and

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Speaker 1: open description of why there was no criminal case. Here,

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Speaker 1: you called Hillary Clinton's behavior extremely careless, placing a value

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Speaker 1: judgment on her. Can you give me another example of

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Speaker 1: an FBI agent or prosecutor coming forward to publicly maligned

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Speaker 1: someone they decided not to prosecute. Lowest learner I r

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Speaker 1: S executive the f the Department of Justice described her

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Speaker 1: as a poor manager, but not engaged in criminal wrongdoing.

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Speaker 1: When they closed the investigation of the so called targeting

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Speaker 1: of the Tea Party Jose Padilla, who was a so

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Speaker 1: called dirty bomber in two thousand and four, I was

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Speaker 1: at the Justice Department. We did a public announcement of

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Speaker 1: why he had been detained and not prosecuted, and described

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Speaker 1: in great detail his conduct. It is part of the

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Speaker 1: norm to do that when the public interests requires it.

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Speaker 1: Now I've struggled with this. I wasn't trying to attack

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. I was trying to be transparent with the

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Speaker 1: American people and describe the conduct. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: could have credibly describe the closure of an investigation in

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Speaker 1: which the former Secretary of State discussed top secret information

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Speaker 1: eight times in emails and secret information fifty sometimes in

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Speaker 1: emails without offering some evaluation. Now I screwed it up

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Speaker 1: because extremely careless was a stupid term to use. I

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Speaker 1: should have said really sloppy, not being facetious, because I

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Speaker 1: was trying to explain to the American people. Look, there's

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Speaker 1: ordinary sloppiness you leave a documented the Starbucks. There's criminal

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Speaker 1: misconduct where you know you're doing something you shouldn't do.

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Speaker 1: David Petras is an example of that, and that's prosecuted.

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Speaker 1: You don't get prosecuted for this, you know, you get

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Speaker 1: prosecutor for this. Hillary Clinton was not this. It was

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Speaker 1: something much more seriousness. It was really sloppy, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't rise to the level of something that would be prosecuted,

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Speaker 1: and so I needed to describe that why we thought

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Speaker 1: the conduct fell short of this threshold for prosecution. But frankly,

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Speaker 1: if I described it as Starbucks documents stuff, the result

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Speaker 1: would have no credibility. Let's talk about the second big

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Speaker 1: decision you made, one that has made many Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: supporters angry to this day. On October two thousand, sixteen,

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Speaker 1: eleven days before the election, you sent a letter to

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Speaker 1: Congress that leaked to the public I believe nine minutes

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Speaker 1: later that said the FBI found new emails that could

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Speaker 1: be pertinent to the Clinton investigation, and you were reviewing them.

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Speaker 1: According to the IG report, these eight emails were actually

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Speaker 1: found more than a month earlier, and the FBI failed

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Speaker 1: to act. You were told about these emails either in

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Speaker 1: late September or early October, and you didn't act. Why

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Speaker 1: the delay? I don't know why the delay. The investor,

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Speaker 1: the investigators in New York, we are investigating Anthony Weener.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna assume you all know who all that is

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Speaker 1: and everything. Um. They had seized his laptop in a

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Speaker 1: criminal investigation and of him for improper sexual contact with

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Speaker 1: a young woman. And it was apparent to the investigators

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Speaker 1: there that there looked to be hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton's emails on there. And that's late September. Sometime

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Speaker 1: in early October. Somebody mentioned it to me in passing,

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Speaker 1: and I don't remember it because I wouldn't index on it.

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Speaker 1: Why would there be a connection between Anthony Weiner's computer

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Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton's email case. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: FBI did. Until I read the Inspector General's report in

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Speaker 1: that month, I know what happened with me. I walked

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Speaker 1: in on October to the investigative team sitting there telling

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Speaker 1: me exactly what they had found and asking me for

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Speaker 1: a decision. Had they told me the same thing a

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Speaker 1: month earlier, I'm confident I would have done the same

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Speaker 1: thing a month earlier. And I wish that's one piece

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Speaker 1: of time I wish I could go back and fix.

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Speaker 1: You said that, once you were aware of these emails

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Speaker 1: and the fact that they needed to be reviewed, you

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Speaker 1: had two choices, in your words, speak which was bad,

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Speaker 1: or conceal which was catastrophic. So you chose bad. But

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Speaker 1: the IG report says this miss mischaracterizes your two choices,

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Speaker 1: which were actually follow policy and practice or depart from

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Speaker 1: policy and practice, and that you chose to make your

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Speaker 1: own rules. Yeah, this is where I disagree with them.

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Speaker 1: And I really like these people and know them. I

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Speaker 1: think just framing it as follow the norms or depart

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Speaker 1: from the norms, it's just another way of saying you

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Speaker 1: have a decision to make right. Norms, as I said,

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Speaker 1: produced reliably good results in normal circumstances. But isn't it

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Speaker 1: important to adhere to norms and abnormal circumstances, particularly in

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Speaker 1: fact the I G went on to write Jim to

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Speaker 1: protect the institutions from allegations of abuse, political interference, and

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Speaker 1: biased enforcement of the law. The Department and the FBI

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Speaker 1: have developed policies and practices to guide their decisions, and

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of cases they are followed as a

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Speaker 1: matter of routine, but they are most important to follow

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Speaker 1: when the states are the highest and when the pressures

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Speaker 1: to divert from them, often based on well founded concerns

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Speaker 1: and highly fraught scenarios, are the greatest. And I think

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Speaker 1: as a as a statement of the importance of norms,

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Speaker 1: that's reasonable. They can't mean it, though, right. They can't

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Speaker 1: mean that in every circumstance you do what you would

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Speaker 1: always normally do. And this is where I disagree with

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Speaker 1: with their framing of it. That's you can't think about

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Speaker 1: it that way. As a lawyer and a leader, you

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Speaker 1: should always say, so, what's the norm? I love the norms?

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Speaker 1: I should try to adhere to the norms, which is

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Speaker 1: why to me, they're framing of follow the norm or

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Speaker 1: depart from the norm just tells yourself you have to

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Speaker 1: ask a question. And so the next question is, okay,

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Speaker 1: if I follow the norm, what happens to the institution?

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Speaker 1: I love? What's the damage that flows if I depart

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Speaker 1: from the norm, what happens to the institution. So let

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Speaker 1: me just finish, Katie, And so you have to still

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Speaker 1: ask the question. I believe, and I don't mean this

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Speaker 1: to be facetious. If I had concealed from the American

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Speaker 1: people that what I and Laretta Lynch had said under oath,

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Speaker 1: repeated in the summer that we're done with Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 1: American people, you can take that to the bank. You

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Speaker 1: can vote knowing this is over. And Hillary Clinton were

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Speaker 1: elected president, and it came out that the FBI had

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Speaker 1: hidden the restarting of that investigation. And I don't mean

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Speaker 1: this to be facetious. There would be an inspector General

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Speaker 1: report about me and how I had destroyed the institution

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Speaker 1: by departing from another norm, which is candor with a tribunal.

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Speaker 1: When you make a statement under oath to a tribunal

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Speaker 1: and you know it's not true, another norm in the

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Speaker 1: FBI and the Department Justice, you corrected. So I honestly

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Speaker 1: think this was a nightmare. But if I had chosen

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Speaker 1: to conceal that, I actually think there be an Inspector

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Speaker 1: General report ripping me for being a slavish adherent to

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Speaker 1: following what we always do in all circumstances. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of this was timing. Eleven days before the election.

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Speaker 1: You said you put out the letter because you had

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Speaker 1: a duty to correct the record, because you told Congress

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Speaker 1: and the public the investigation was closed, and you now

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Speaker 1: knew evidence had emerged. But wouldn't any prosecutor or investor,

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Speaker 1: stigator or his or her sault wait to see if

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Speaker 1: the new evidence was significant enough before charging out and

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Speaker 1: announcing it, knowing that it was such a political grenade

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Speaker 1: you were throwing. That's a reasonable question. But here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: You're sitting there as the director of the FBI and

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General. By the way, I offered her the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to weigh on in this decision, and she passed.

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Speaker 1: I said, here's what we and that's the truth. Here's

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Speaker 1: what we face. The investigative team is telling me, not

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Speaker 1: only are the hundreds of thousands of Hillary Clinton's emails

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Speaker 1: on Anthony Weiner's laptop for reasons we can't possibly explain,

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Speaker 1: but we may have found the missing emails. Remember this

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Speaker 1: what I described. The reason there was no prosecution here

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Speaker 1: is there was no evidence that she knew she was

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Speaker 1: doing something wrong. If there was going to be that evidence,

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Speaker 1: it would come at the beginning of her tenures secretary

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Speaker 1: of State. We never found any emails from her first

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Speaker 1: three months of secretary because those are on a BlackBerry device.

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Speaker 1: That morning, October, the investigative team says to me, not

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Speaker 1: only are there hundreds of thousands of her Clinton Domain emails,

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Speaker 1: there are tens of thousands of her BlackBerry emails on

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Speaker 1: Anthony Leener's laptop. So they said to me, so the

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Speaker 1: result may change, so you may decide to wait, maybe

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Speaker 1: wait and see. They're also telling me, we can't possibly

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Speaker 1: finish before the election. So what do I do? Do

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Speaker 1: I wait and see if we can get a peek?

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Speaker 1: Do I wait till after the election. That's what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't finish before the election because they did well.

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Speaker 1: That the reason they were saying it made complete sense

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Speaker 1: to me. You couldn't bring in recruits from Quantico like

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Speaker 1: you would if you're looking for a bullet in a

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Speaker 1: hay field, because people who knew the context had to

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Speaker 1: actually read these emails to see if they contain classified

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Speaker 1: information or if they contain clues to her intent. They said,

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Speaker 1: we can't possibly do that in the eleven days left,

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Speaker 1: and we can't use de duplicating software that's commonly available

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Speaker 1: law firms use because the emails are all and have

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Speaker 1: to be on our classified networks. We have no capability

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Speaker 1: on the classified networks. And then what they did over

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Speaker 1: that frantic week was our software engineers built de duplicating

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Speaker 1: software for the classified networks and cut it down to

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Speaker 1: six thousand or so they had to read individually, and

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Speaker 1: so a team of about half a dozen read them

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Speaker 1: night after night after night, and finished on the Sunday

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Speaker 1: before the election, and they found lots of new stuff.

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Speaker 1: But they said to me on Sunday morning before the election,

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Speaker 1: our view of her culpability has not changed. And I

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Speaker 1: think you have done that though before making that writing

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Speaker 1: that letter. But how would I do that though? I mean,

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Speaker 1: the team is telling me credibly we can't possibly finish

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Speaker 1: before the election, and so what would be my reason

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Speaker 1: to wait? Now? There's been a lot of speculation out there, like, well,

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Speaker 1: was he counting on a leak? No? In fact, I

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Speaker 1: thought there was some prospect that it would leak once

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Speaker 1: we enlarged the circle, and we had a big team

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Speaker 1: in New York knowing about the search warrant. But I

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Speaker 1: thought that in a way would be the worst of

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Speaker 1: all worlds for the FBI, because that would be speaking

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Speaker 1: and concealing. So you were afraid of a leak, of course.

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Speaker 1: And and Loretta Lynch when she was consoling me on

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Speaker 1: October thirty one after I wrote the letter, said would

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Speaker 1: they feel better for a leaked on November four? And

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Speaker 1: what I understood her to be saying is this was

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Speaker 1: gonna come out anyway. But my view was, I can't

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Speaker 1: make a decision about something of this cup, this incredibly

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Speaker 1: importance by assuming it's going to leak. I have to

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Speaker 1: own the decision on behalf of the institution and offer

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General the opportunity to help me make it.

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Speaker 1: So she consoled you, Yeah, what did she say? She

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Speaker 1: hugged me, And I'm an awkward hugger to begin with,

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Speaker 1: but we've seen that in the Oval office sector. Now

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Speaker 1: I have to correct that there was no hug and

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Speaker 1: no kiss, and there was no kiss, but she she

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Speaker 1: hugged me, and then she said, you asked me. I've

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Speaker 1: known Laurette a long time and really like her, and

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Speaker 1: I think she really likes me. She hugged me and said,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing. I said, it's a complete nightmare.

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Speaker 1: It's the worst thing I've ever been involved in. And

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Speaker 1: she said and I said, explain, I said, what choice

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Speaker 1: do I have? And she said would they feel better

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Speaker 1: if at leaked on November the fourth? And what I

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Speaker 1: understood it to be saying was basically, don't be so

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Speaker 1: hard on yourself this. Your decision was actually not as

432
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: important as you think it was because it was going

433
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: to come out anyway. Maybe, but you can't make decisions

434
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 1: that way when you're leading an institution. The IG report says,

435
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: the other reason you wrote the letter to Congress was

436
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: your belief that Clinton would win and this would taint

437
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: her presidency. Looking back on this, do you ever think

438
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: what was I thinking? Political prognostication should have absolutely nothing

439
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: to do with my decision making. I should not even

440
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: be contemplating the political future. I didn't. I didn't. I

441
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: intentionally pushed that to the side. One of my best

442
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: advisors we talked about I made this decision, actually made

443
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: it with a group of about ten or twelve people.

444
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: One of the best people in that group was a

445
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: very talented lawyer who asked me a searing question. She said,

446
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: should you consider that what you're about to do may

447
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: help elect Donald Trump president? And I said, thank you

448
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: for asking that question. It's a great question, not for

449
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: a moment, because down that path lies to death of

450
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: the FBI as an independent force in the United States

451
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: of America. If I ever start considering whose political fortunes

452
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: will be helped in what way by a decision, we're

453
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: just another partisan player. I can you never worried this

454
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: would taint her presidency if you did not come forward

455
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: with this information, or if it came out later. We

456
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: visualize that, talked about it, and then pushed it aside.

457
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 1: Now what I've done in the book, which they tell

458
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: me is a mistake for a Washington book, I've tried

459
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: to be introspective and asked myself that could it have

460
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: affected me that the whole world assumed she was going

461
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: to be elected president? And the honest answer is, of course,

462
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: I was making that decision in an environment where everyone

463
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: thought she was gonna win. But I don't remember consciously

464
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: thinking about it, and honestly, it wouldn't change the decision.

465
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: I can't conceal that if Hillary Clinton's up twenty points

466
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: in the polls, and I can't conceal it if Donald

467
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: Trump's up twenty points in the polls, because either way

468
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: it would be catastrophic for the institution. Now makes the

469
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: decision easier because the damage, if you think about it,

470
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: if the damage to Hillary Clinton would be far, far

471
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: worse if she was a president elected, imagine the result changes.

472
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: She's a president elected with an investigation underway, the FBI

473
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: hid from the American people, and the FBI conclude she's

474
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: criminally culpable after the election. Oh my lord, but that

475
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: is not why I made the decision. Well, many people

476
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: think thanks to your actions, we don't even have to

477
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: contemplate that. No, I get that. I get that, and

478
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: I hope and pray that's not true. And I don't this.

479
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: I don't mean this to sound also dismissive. It doesn't

480
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: change how I think about the result, as painful as

481
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: it is, even in hindsight, I think I made the

482
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: right choice, and I know the Inspector General just a Greece.

483
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: But I say to people, please come with me to

484
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: October and stare at those choices and tell me which

485
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: is the one most consistent with the values of the institution.

486
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: You leave, and I get that the I g season differently.

487
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: I like them, I think they're wrong. Time to take

488
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: a quick break. We'll return with more of my conversation

489
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: with former FBI director James Comey live from the Aspen

490
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: Ideas Festival right after this. Now back to my conversation

491
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: with James Comey. Let's talk about the impact this letter

492
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: to Congress eleven days before the election had on the results.

493
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: Nate Silver, the highly respected polling guru, wrote Hillary Clinton

494
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: would probably be president if FBI Director James Comey had

495
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: not sent a letter to Congress on October That must

496
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 1: be a tremendously heavy burden for you. Do you feel

497
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: responsible for the action of Donald Trump and the current

498
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: state of the Union. I I hope these answers don't

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: sound contradictory. I don't, but I also it is a

500
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: heavy burden. And I've said this and I think our

501
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: current president misunderstood what I meant. It leaves me feeling

502
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: mildly nauseous to think, and I should have said nauseated.

503
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: I know, but it leaves me feeling my dad used

504
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: to always correct means you make people nausea, which I

505
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: may may anyway, But one of my daughters corrected me.

506
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: But here's why I say that that I've devoted my

507
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: whole life to institutions of justice that want nothing to

508
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: do with elections. The most powerful norm I've lived under

509
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: is you take no action in the run up to

510
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: an election that might have an impact on the election.

511
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: I believe in that to my core. My problem was

512
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't find a door labeled no action on October.

513
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: I could see two actions and they were both really bad.

514
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: And so, look, I feel sick to my stomach about it,

515
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: but I in an odd way, I don't feel responsible

516
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: because I'm proud of the way we made the decisions.

517
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: We thought about the right things. One of the things

518
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: the I g confirmed from me is I didn't miss

519
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: anything in terms of norms. There aren't any rules about this.

520
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: We thought about it well, we argued about it, we

521
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: debated it. I offered the leadership of the Department of

522
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: Justice the chance to take the decision from me, and

523
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: the response was, we think it's a bad idea, but

524
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: it's his call. And so I think we made the

525
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: decision in the right way, thinking about the right things,

526
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: and honestly wouldn't change it. Going back and so there's

527
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: peace in that, and I know it seems contradictory, there's

528
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: peace in that. Just the same time, there's nausea about

529
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: the fact that you had any involvement. If I could

530
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: change time, you would never have heard of me. Right.

531
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to be famous. I don't. I didn't

532
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: want to be involved at all. This was a living nightmare.

533
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: But I'm very proud of the way the leadership team

534
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: around me made this decision. You say you don't want

535
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: want to be famous, but you wrote in your book,

536
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: I've long worried about my ego, and you've admitted you

537
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: can be driven by ego. So you don't think any

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: of this was driven by ego even a little bit.

539
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: I don't think so, although how how well do any

540
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: of us really know ourselves? That's true about me? I've

541
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: I thought I was such hot stuff, as my mother

542
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: used to say, especially when I was younger. I married

543
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: an amazing person who has beaten that out of me

544
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But look, I I do

545
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: worry any leaders should worry about that. It's the reason

546
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: I put a team around me of people who will

547
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: speak the truth to me. And so I don't think

548
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: this decision was made for ego reasons. And one of

549
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: the reasons I say that is I could see the future.

550
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: I knew how bad this is gonna be for me personally.

551
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: The best thing for me personally would have been to

552
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: do the normal thing in July and let Lauretta Lynch

553
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: in now this baby, and do the normal thing in

554
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: October and say, well, we never comment and let the

555
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: institution take the hit. One of the things that it

556
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: annoys my amazing wife is she says, why are you

557
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: stepping in front of the institutions and getting shot repeatedly?

558
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: Because that's my job. I knew how bad this was

559
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: going to be for me, so I really I've asked

560
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: myself that's a million times because I worry about myself.

561
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: I really don't think these were driven by ego. Let's

562
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: talk about the third decision. And I want to roll

563
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: through this because there's so much I want to ask

564
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: you about what's going on today. But this concerns the

565
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: Russia investigation. We now know that by the time the

566
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: election rolled around, that investigation had been going on for months.

567
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: It was never made public. You refuse to confirm or

568
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: deny it, and you followed a FBI protocol. Can you

569
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: explain what appears to be a blatant double standard. It's

570
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: a reasonable question. Actually was an easy decision for us

571
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: because think about the difference between the Clinton investigation and

572
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: the Russia counter intelligence investigation. Clinton investigation began with a

573
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: public referral in two thousand fifteen to the FBI. The

574
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: subject of the investigation was Hillary Clinton herself. I refused

575
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: to confirm that even existed for three months after it

576
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: came to us publicly, and then spoke not another word

577
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: until we closed it with transparency. The Russia counter intelligence

578
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: investigation is different. There's two things going on in the

579
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: summer of two thousand sixteen about Russia. One is are

580
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: trying to understand the massive Russian effort to mess with

581
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: our election. There. I thought we ought to offer the

582
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: American people transparency, and I wrote an op ed that

583
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: I offered to the Obama administration to tell the American people,

584
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: here's what's going on. That's one thing with Russia. The

585
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: separate and very different was we got information in late

586
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: July that Americans may be connected to that effort, and

587
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: so we opened a counterintelligence investigation, not focused on Donald Trump,

588
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: but focused on people in the Trump orbit on whom

589
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: we had kind of wisps of information, and so we

590
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: actually never talked about disclosing that it because what would

591
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: we say, We just opened this investigation on Americans. We

592
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: don't know there's anything to it at all, and it

593
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: doesn't involve the candidate himself, And so it honestly never

594
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: came up. We wrestled a whole lot about what to

595
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: say about this, but I can't imagine anyone in our

596
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: shoes disclosing the beginning of a counterintelligence investigation. But on

597
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: October thirty one, two thousand sixteen, that was nine days

598
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: before the election, the New York Times published a story

599
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: saying that the FBI had found quote no conclusive or

600
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: direct link between Mr Trump and the Russian government. FBI

601
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: sources also said that Russian hacking was aimed simply at

602
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: disrupting the presidential election and not helping Donald Trump. You

603
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: said in an interview with The New Yorker with David

604
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Remnick that was false. Did you know the story was

605
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: wrong at the time, and if so, why not correct

606
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: the record? Well, when the stories that are wrong about

607
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: classified investigations, classified subjects, we never correct them unless we're

608
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: in a position where the matter, you know, the matter

609
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: is public in some way. So that story was wrong

610
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: in the second respect. In that what we concluded about

611
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: Russia was they were trying to damage our democracy most

612
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: of all, that was their overwhelming desire. Second heard Hillary Clinton.

613
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Third help elect Donald Trump. So in that respect it

614
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: was wrong. The first part was not wrong, but yeah,

615
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: there was no serious discussion about correcting that. There was agony.

616
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: President Obama had a hard decision to make. Do I

617
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: tell the American people the Russians are coming for our election?

618
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: That was a very hard decision that was his to make,

619
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: but couldn't a reasonable voter. In October of two thousand

620
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: and sixteen conclude, based on information coming from Jim Comey's

621
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: FBI that Hillary Clinton was a candidate overwhelmed by scandal

622
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: who had acted extremely carelessly and Donald Trump did nothing wrong,

623
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: did nothing wrong in what sense, did nothing wrong in

624
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: terms of there was no collusion. There was suspicion that

625
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: he was involved with the Russians, and you know that

626
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: that was kind of a case closed. Is at least

627
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: that article that led people to that I think conclusion

628
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: right now. The thing about the Times is a detail,

629
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: but it matters. They weren't reporting official disclosures by the

630
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: FBI of the Department Justice, which is an important thing.

631
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: They were reporting whatever they were getting from their sources,

632
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: whatever they were doing. They were giving voters an impression. Right.

633
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: But it's not the government's responsible to correct erroneous reports

634
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: based on sources. It just isn't. But to come to

635
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: the most important question, Donald Trump was not the subject

636
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: of a counter intelligence investigation. In October of two thousand

637
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: and sixteen. We were still trying to figure out was

638
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: anybody in that orbit working with the Russians And still

639
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: didn't know the answer at that point, and I don't

640
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: I actually don't know what the answer is. Today we

641
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: had enough to open an investigation, but by that point

642
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: I had no basis to believe there was evidence of

643
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: a connection between people, and a solid connection people in

644
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: the Russian effort. What do you think now? I don't know.

645
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: I don't know what Bob Mueller will find, and I

646
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: worry that people from all points of the political spectrum

647
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 1: project onto him hopes for a result. My only hope

648
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: is for the truth. If he's left to do his job,

649
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: he may find there's not significant evidence of a connection

650
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: he may find. I don't know what he'll find. An

651
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: obstruction of justice, I honestly don't know. It's just he'll

652
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: find the facts if he's allowed to finish. Let's let's

653
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: talk about President Trump's temperament um. You have said, I

654
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: think he has an emptiness inside of him and a

655
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: hunger for affirmation in him I've never seen in an adult,

656
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: which sounds like a textbook definition of a narcissist. After

657
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: his comments following the White Supremacy rally in Charlottesville, you

658
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: said you believed he is morally unfit to be president.

659
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: Has your opinion of President Trump changed for better or

660
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: for worse in the last say year. It's gotten worse

661
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: because I see more of the behavior that I think,

662
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: whether you're Republican or Democrat or independent, you should care

663
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: deeply about the erosion of the central norm of the

664
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: United States of America, the truth, and an attack on

665
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: the rule of law that I've never imagined before. And

666
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: so it's those, those attacks on our norms and our

667
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 1: values have only gotten more serious, and and everybody should

668
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: care about them, no matter where you are in the

669
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: policy spectrum, because all we are in this country is

670
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: a collection of values and we lose those. Really, you're

671
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: going to trade that for some position on taxes or

672
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: immigration or anything else. You should never trade what is

673
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: essentially America. Is there anything specifically you're particularly concerned about

674
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: out when you look at his actions and his rhetoric, Well,

675
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: those two. I think the central touchstone of American public

676
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: life is the truth. We always measure our leaders by

677
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: their tether to the truth. George W. Bush spoke falsely

678
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: when he said their weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

679
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: Barack Obama spoke falsely when he said, if you like

680
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: your doctor, you can keep your doctor. And then both

681
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: of those people spent the rest of their tenure and

682
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: probably the rest of their lives explaining the tether to

683
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: the touchstone. I didn't know that I meant this. I

684
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: understood this because the touchstone is something they see. There's

685
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: so much line going on right now, there's a risk

686
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: this is gonna melt like a sand castle at the

687
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: beach and we will become numb to the fact that

688
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: it is the center of the United States of America

689
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: and stop judging our leader by the touchstone to this

690
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: that is deeply concerning and closely connected the rule of law.

691
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: I wake up probably once a week, and the President

692
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: of the United States has tweeted that I should be

693
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: in jail. And I honestly laugh because I know there's

694
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: no there's nothing to that. It's just him saying stuff.

695
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: And then I stop and actually criticize myself and say,

696
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: what are you doing. You're becoming numb to something that

697
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: is profoundly threatening to the central norm of rule of

698
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: law in this country. And I say to my I

699
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: used to be a Republican. I say to my former

700
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: Republican colleagues, Imagine Barack Obama wakes up in the morning

701
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: and announces that so and so should be in jail.

702
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: Your head would explode. And why would it explode? Because

703
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: that norm, the rule of law in this country, Lady,

704
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: justice with a blindfold is all we are as a country.

705
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: So I'm deeply concerned about all of us becoming numb

706
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: to what's happening to us. And why are are your

707
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: Republican colleagues with whom you have these conversations, are they outraged? Well,

708
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: most Republicans don't talk to me anymore. Um, so I've

709
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: succeeded in pissing off everyone except Patrice, who still loves

710
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: me um the the I think what they're doing is

711
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: making a trade. They've convinced themselves that the Supreme Court,

712
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: or a tax cut or something is worth it. And

713
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: I keep saying to them, And because they don't talk

714
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: to me personally, I say it in the media. I

715
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: asked them to take the grandchildren test. What are you

716
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: going to tell your grandchildren? You were here and you

717
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: traded what for this? You traded that. So my small contribution,

718
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 1: and what I hope is a very brief period where

719
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: I'm a celebrity, is to raise all of our eyes

720
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: above the things we normally fight about and stare at

721
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: the values in this country, because without them, I mean,

722
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: we're a country that shouldn't exist. Right. We're not united

723
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: by religion, by ethnicity, by anything except our commitment to

724
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: a set of ideas. We hold these truths to be

725
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: self evident. Truth is our fourth word in our foundational documents.

726
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: We've always been imperfect, but we are organized around a

727
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: set of values. They're not worth trading for anything. And

728
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: in the long run, your grandchildren are going to look

729
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: up at you and say, what did you do? And

730
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: I hope to God all of us realize that In

731
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: the end, that's the most important question for us to answer,

732
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: and I get the power of the moment. Right. People

733
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: are passionate about this, passionate about that. Holy cow, please

734
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: take the long view. I called my book a Higher

735
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: Loyalty because I hope all of us are loyal first

736
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: and foremost to those things, and then we can get

737
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: back to these other things. I hope in the next

738
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: presidential election, people will vote their values, and I don't

739
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: care who they vote for, so long as they vote

740
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: those values. First of all, we have to restore the

741
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: presidency as the representative. The embodiment imperfect because it's always people,

742
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: but are representative of those values. Then we get back

743
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: to all the important disagreements. Does Donald Trump have a

744
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: single does he have a single attribute other than his

745
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: energy that you admire or is there anything he's done

746
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: at all in the last year and a half that

747
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: you appreciate or support. Energy is one, so I'll that'll

748
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: be the given. I think he is extraordinarily perceptive and

749
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: very good of public mood, certain and communication. I think

750
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: what he's done with his ability to step through filters

751
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: and communicate directly is genius. I think a lot of

752
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: it is really bad the way it's done, but it's

753
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 1: it's really extraordinary and will change the way public figures

754
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: think and talk about communication in the future. So I

755
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: think that's extraordinary. I don't because I focus so much

756
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: on his erosion, his attack on our central norms and values.

757
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: I really can't think of much positive to say beyond that.

758
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Justice Kennedy, who announced he's retiring. What

759
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: do you believe will be the biggest consequences of a

760
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: new more conservative Supreme Court. I don't know for sure,

761
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: because it will depend upon their adherence to the principle

762
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: of starry decisives, which is a really important norm in

763
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: the court system. That is, you respect that which has

764
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: been decided unless there's a significant change in facts or

765
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: an intervening change in the law. I would imagine on

766
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: close calls there will be more of a so called

767
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: conservative much easier, much easier to assemble a conservative majority

768
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: to win a five four case on important issues. Well, well,

769
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: I know that legal analysts and writer Jeff tub And

770
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: predicted Roe v. Wade would be overturned and within eighteen

771
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: months abortion would be illegal in twenty states. I don't that.

772
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that because of the Again, it's a

773
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: really important part of the entire judicial system, especially the

774
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, this notion that precedent must be respected absence

775
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: something fundamental, especially fundamental change in facts. So I actually

776
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: don't know that it's possible, but my view is I

777
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: would probably you'd have to take a deeply unprincipled stand

778
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: with respect to tradition and precedent, and I can't imagine

779
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: a new justice supporting that, at least that early in

780
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: their tenure. Let's talk about your future. I know in

781
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: the acknowledgements, you thanked a lot of people and you

782
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: said thank you for the joy and the journey, which

783
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 1: isn't over yet. So let's talk about what's ahead for you.

784
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: On June six, you tweet it's so good to see

785
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: new growth in Iowa and across the country, with a

786
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: picture of yourself in an Iowa field. Yeah, that just

787
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 1: means people don't realize I'm married to an Iowa girl

788
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: and I visit there all the time. And that was

789
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: actually my subtle way of maybe temporarily, maybe forever, ending

790
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: my presence on Twitter because it began with Patrice took

791
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: a picture of me. I'm so tall standing in a

792
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,479
Speaker 1: corn field and then people like he's running No never,

793
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: but but she took a picture of me as we

794
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: went for a walk through a new field, and then

795
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: we tweeted it out kind of as a book end

796
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: on my Twitter Twitter alias thing is very confounding to

797
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: people talk about that my Twitter areless is Reinhold Neiber,

798
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: who's a theologian and philosopher who had a tremendous influence

799
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 1: on me as a young person, still does because it's

800
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: really the message I hope to share with young people.

801
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: Neiber said, the world sucks, so what right? So what

802
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: don't you dare withdraw just because it sucks? Get in there,

803
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: step into the public square, and achieve justice. My great

804
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 1: worry today is the young people gonna look at and say, God,

805
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: it's so ikey. I don't want to be involved in that,

806
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: and they can't. We need them to step forward. And

807
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: I see it already. At the end of my book,

808
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: I described Donald Trump as a forest fire, and I

809
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: chose that metaphor on purpose because he's doing tremendous damage

810
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: to this country. But forest fires allow things to grow

811
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: that could not grow before. And I see the growth

812
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: already as I travel around I've had to travel a

813
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: lot as part of the book tour, and I see

814
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 1: young people engaged like I never imagined. I see record

815
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: numbers of women running for off as, so many that

816
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: they're competing with each other. Could you ever imagine that

817
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: five years ago? And so I'm essentially I'm optimistic. And

818
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: I also just finished John Meecham's book, which told me

819
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: it has sucked before and it will suck again, it

820
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: will suck again. But but I walked out of Meecham's

821
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: book with this, this graphical metaphor. America's line is always

822
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: an upward slope, but if you stare at it's not

823
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: a solid line. It's a jagged line. Periods of progress, retrenchment, progress, retrenchment. Right,

824
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: we think we forget the nine twenty four there were

825
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: twenty se million Kupucks Klan members in this country. A

826
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: third of the Congress was KKK members as a reaction

827
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: to women getting the vote, huge numbers of immigrants, blacks

828
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: getting marginal improvements. And then we saw it again in

829
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties ninety fifty four. Joe McCarthy dominated our politics.

830
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: His fellow party members were afraid to speak out against him,

831
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: and then he faded, this too shall pass. What's really

832
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: important for all of us is know that it will pass.

833
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: But cabin the danger can find the fire. So the recovery,

834
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: the healing of those scars is faster. But we are

835
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: going to heal. We're going to recover patrices. I will

836
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: roots the side. Would you ever consider running for president? So?

837
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: What are your immediate plans? To teach? Work for a

838
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: law firm, to have your own talk show? I've done

839
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: Netflix and Chill. What are you going to be doing?

840
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: I've already so I've already lined it up. I just

841
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: spent this year teaching at Howard University, which was really

842
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: really cool for me, and that the student of the

843
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: university that once booed you. Remember when we went and spoken,

844
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: he interrupted my first lecture chanting, comey is not our homie,

845
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty awesome. And I'll tell you something.

846
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: By the end of the year, the kids who chanted that,

847
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: we're coming to my lectures and talking. No, no, no,

848
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: still still disagreeing with me. But it's hard to hate

849
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: up close. And when you get up close with people

850
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: and see them as human beings, it's much easier to

851
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: have a conversation so I found the year at Howard

852
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: really rewarding, was all about law enforcement and race at

853
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: their request. And now starting in August, I'm teaching it

854
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: my beloved alma mater, not U v A. William and Mary.

855
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: It's a great it's a great school, and so what

856
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna be teaching in the public policy program

857
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: about leadership and ethical decisions and hard decisions. And that's

858
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: really fun. And my book will be one of the

859
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: books which I have given to the students who registered.

860
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: I never want to be that professor. How many books

861
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: have you sold, by the way, a ridiculous amount, more

862
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: than a million, I don't know exactly, a lot more

863
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: than a million, I think so so closing, because I

864
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: was told I could not go over. When all is

865
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: said and done, what do you hope your legacy will be?

866
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: This is an odd thing. I hope to be forgotten

867
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: that in this sense. I hope that in Patricio also

868
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: slieve that. Well, here's what I hope. I hope that

869
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: someone will establish that what I did had absolutely no impact,

870
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: that that there's a way to prove that. And then

871
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: failing that, for my most important thing is I want

872
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: to be a great husband, a great father and a

873
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: great grandfather, and a great neighbor and community member. That's

874
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: the only thing that has value in my life. The

875
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: rest of it. I hope that I'm known as a

876
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: person we try to do the right thing, who thought

877
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: well about things and made judgments with an eye on

878
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: the right things, and and that's something that I'll be

879
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 1: very proud of. Realistically, what do you think your legacy

880
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: will be? I don't know. I guess it will depend

881
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: on where you sit, and people have a passion. You

882
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: all know this. But the people think I was on

883
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: Hilly Clinton's side, the Clinton people think I was on

884
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: Trump side. I really hope that in the in the

885
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: long sweep of things, it'll be clear we weren't on

886
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: anybody's side. We were people in the middle of a

887
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: five your flood trying to make good decisions. And whether

888
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,959
Speaker 1: you agree with the decisions or not, they were good

889
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: decisions in the way they were made and the values

890
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: that guided them. And I actually think in the long

891
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: run people will see that that's I know, this sounds crazy,

892
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: that's actually not all that important to me. The other

893
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: things I talked about are more important to me. But

894
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: that's I think that's most likely that once the storm

895
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: passes and we've resumed our inevitable progress in this country,

896
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: there'll be a more dispassionate look at it. But I

897
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe not. Jim Comey, thank you very much,

898
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: Thank you, a big thank you to the Aspen Ideas

899
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: Festival for inviting me to interview James Comey, with extra

900
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: special thanks to my Frank Kitty Boone, the executive director

901
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: of the Ideas Festival, and the enormously talented Zach st. Louis,

902
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: who's been answering our every tech and production question. Thank you, Zach,

903
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: and listeners will be bringing you another conversation from Aspen

904
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: for our next episode. That will be an interview with

905
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: Steve Huffman, the CEO of the website Reddit. The first

906
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: we're taking a week off. That means no new episode

907
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: on July twelve. In the meantime, get outside and enjoy

908
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: the sunshine people, but please, we're sunscreen and our conversation

909
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: with Steve Huffman from Aspen, Colorado will drop on July nine.

910
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: Of course, we'd like to say our usual thanks to

911
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: our team at Stitcher. That's Gianna Palmer, our inimitable producer

912
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: Nora Richie, our assistant producer, and Jared O'Connell, our engineer extraordinaire.

913
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: So many superlatives, Brian, thank you to the incredibly talented

914
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: and efficient Beth Dems and the enormously creative Alison Bresnick

915
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: over at Katie Current Media ATTY like that Mr Brian

916
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: and I are the executive producers of the show. Mark

917
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: Phillips wrote our theme music. And if you're a fan

918
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: of this show, we'd love to have you leave us

919
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: a rating on Apple Podcasts and or hit subscribe wherever

920
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: you listen. It really helps more people find our podcast.

921
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: So that's all, folks. Will talk to you the week

922
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 1: after next