WEBVTT - The Problem of Immortality: Terror Management Theory 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.000 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:14.080 Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to bow 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.800 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.439 you live in Atlanta, Georgia. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.680 or we live in to Caatijo, wherever we're in the 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.960 vast frawl that that that we call the city of Atlanta. 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.000 And uh, you have therefore been to the Bodies Exhibit, 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.240 because I think it's been entombed here in the city 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.920 for like a decade now. Yeah. Actually, I probably was 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.320 one of the first people who was lining up to 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.440 see that exhibit, sure that it would be gone within 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.720 weeks and I would never have a chance to see 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.839 these plastic sized cadavers frolicking around playing basketball. Yeah, we 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:50.760 had no idea that we would see flyers and and 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.520 posters for the Body's Exhibit for almost almost the next 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.800 ten years. It's it feels like on like every surface 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:00.760 imaginable on the Marta train, it just gets to where 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.520 your board with with it. You're just on your commute, 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:04.920 you're you're reading a book. You look up, Oh, there's 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.600 a flayed Chinese man. Yeah, although every once in a 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.800 while it will sort of catch me off guard. Like 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.000 if I come up an escalator and I saw I 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.000 see this raw imagery of this physical body in front 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.080 of me, I will be kind of shocked a bit 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.240 because it's really I mean, it's the human body stripped 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.800 to its bare essence. It's a reminder that we die, 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.120 that we are this material, and we're ephemeral beings that 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.680 this material it rots, it leaves. But the question is 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.600 is taking a cadaver, removing its skin, plasticizing it, and 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.720 then rearranging it. Is this really a confrontation with death? Yeah? 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.280 Because what goes through your mind when you confront this 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.480 this image of this this flayed body that's been it's 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.400 been essentially turned to plastic, but to retaining all of 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.160 its its features and surfaces. Uh, what are we thinking 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.840 when we watch it play chess or play basketball or 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.920 whatever the pose happens happens to be um, A lot 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.440 of the personality is taken away when you remove the 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.720 skin from it. It becomes more of an anatomical specimen 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.640 than a person. If you have any any lingering concerns 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.400 about who was this, this guy, this, this girl, you 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.240 know in their former life and and this is something 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.040 they wanted for themselves. Those tend that those thoughts that 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.799 tend to come later after you have left the facility. Yeah. 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.440 According to Jane Desmond, she's a professor of anthropology at 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.200 the University of Illinois and an author on a paper 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.640 on this very topic, she says, this process of subtraction 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.720 that's taken away all the social markers in a sense, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:39.760 idealizes and universalizes these individuals so that symbolically they come 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.440 to stand for undifferentiated humans, which allows us to look 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.200 with impunity. Impunity because we're not really looking at the 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.080 person or an individual. And she says, in many ways, 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.200 we don't see graphic images of death. We see fictionalized 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.440 images of death. Yeah. And I would also add that 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:59.600 that the bodies exhibit in the in the way that 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.960 these these cadavers are are frozen in time like this, 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.240 they're more symbols of life than death. You're seeing like 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.799 this eternally living uh sample of physiology before you. You're 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.480 not seeing a rotting body. You're seeing this eternally fresh 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.040 red uh, you know, just right off the meat counter body. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.920 That's I love the way you put that, because it 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.960 really does show you the distance that we have put 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.960 between ourselves and death. We think we're confronting it because 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:32.160 we're seeing the human body which is no longer alive, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.880 laid bare, but really we are immortalizing it. Yeah, and 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.760 I imagine that's not what the Gunte von Hagens, the 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.320 German physician and anatomist uh that created the body's exhibit, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.280 really wanted for us. Uh. Gunther On Haggins seems like 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.839 a guy who's all about confronting death. He himself often 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:54.200 talks about his inevitable demise from Parkinson's disease, so it's 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.040 it's interesting that he's created something that distances us from 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.320 death rather than brings us closer to our under standing 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.160 of it. Well, and in a sense too, he's immortalizing 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:07.000 himself through this act right live on in history as 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.360 the person who came up with this plastination technique which 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.680 allowed people to really view cadavers in various ways, whether 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:16.600 or not they were reconfigured to look like they were 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.600 playing sports, or maybe one section of their body was 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.200 cut up so much so that you could really see 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.320 the tissues in a way that had never really been 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:28.240 displayed before. So I wanted to bring up this this 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.120 idea by Burned Heinrich, and I'm reading a book by 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.240 him right now called Everlasting Life, and it's about insect 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.239 and animal death and it's really interesting, and he says 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.640 that human death is becoming more and more divorced from nature. 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.159 We pump are dead with polluting chemicals like formaldehyde. We 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.120 put them into airtight boxes and then plant them in 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.320 precious real estate that could be used for agriculture. We 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.000 think we're denying death that way. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I've 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.200 I've thought this for some time. It's just look, go 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.000 to these remarkable meanings to distance ourselves not only from 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.160 the decay of the body, but but also from the 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.080 act of dying. I mean, we have whole institutions in 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.720 place so that we don't have to confront the realities 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.480 of physical death, right so much so to the point 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.000 that we're embalming ourselves and this hope that there's some 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.280 sort of immortality available to us. And that's what we're 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:25.719 gonna talk about today, This idea of immortality, why it's problematic, 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.520 and why we need this story of immortality yea, and 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:34.520 arguably why immortality and the quest for immortality is at 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.640 the heart of every human endeavor. Now we'll we'll put 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.599 that to you the end of the episode. If you 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.760 believe that that the quest for immortality is in fact 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.120 such a vital part of who we are as humans, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.359 or if there's a little more to us right like 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.880 on a day to day basis, could it be affecting 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.680 our decisions? Yeah, we shall see. Now, I feel like 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.720 we should before we go further, we should discuss our 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.000 own takes on this. I feel like I probably think 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.440 about death a lot, and I feel like I've always 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.360 kind of thought about death. Um Like, I can't remember 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.640 a time when when I when I didn't think about it, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.360 and and and it's not not like I was encountering 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.840 death at an early stage in life. You know, my 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.320 life was was comfortably death free for for the longest 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.520 period of time. But it seems like there's always been 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:23.320 a kind of confrontation of it, at least in the 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.200 media that I've consumed throughout my life. So it seems 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.440 like I've I've always been there with it. Yeah. I 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.480 I have said before that this podcast has had me 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.520 thinking about it quite a bit um since we began. 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.360 Although I am difficult to work with right, right, I'll 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.240 just bring me death, no, but more and from the 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.760 route of consciousness, because I equate you know, non consciousness, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.479 not so much sleep or or even coma with death. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.000 But you know, basically, when you start thinking about consciousness 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.760 and life and you begin to try to center where 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.360 all this is coming from, inevitably you will land on 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.800 the death card and start to think about that. So 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.440 when we struck upon this talk by Stephen Cave who 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:13.360 has a book out about immortality and and he discusses 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:18.160 these various ways in which we approach immortality, it really 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.960 struck me because he says that we can't help it. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.280 We humans have several different ways that we create this 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.560 narrative of immortality. And he says, really there are four 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.680 different types of it. One really well known. In fact, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.880 it's a pretty historical one. I think everybody is familiar 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.880 with resurrection, this idea that you might come back to 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.280 life after dying, and this is a belief that is 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.760 found in various religions. We're talking about a literal resurrection 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.920 of the body, but also a heavenly resurrection or a 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.800 recycling of the soul into a new body and time, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:59.080 which leads to different ideas about what this resurrection could be. Yeah, 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.400 this one's pretty pretty fabulous because again it's part of 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.800 the three major Judaeo Christian religions, I mean Judaism, Christianity, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.840 and Islam. And it's the idea that resurrection life after 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:15.080 death involves you being born again in this body or 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.880 perhaps in another body just like this one, and we 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.360 it's it's often, it's often something that you end up 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.000 skimming over within those faiths. You end up being told, 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.160 all right, yeah, you know there's a bodily resurrection, but 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.280 you really end up buying into other ideas of resurrection 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.400 that we'll discuss um. Because there are so many complications. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.640 You get into questions of well, which version of me, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.559 which which body is going to come back? And my 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.439 coming back is this this rotting body of this uh, 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.960 this preserved body. What happens if something happens to the 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.559 body of the body is not not not prepared properly 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.880 for burial, but it's not buried the right way of 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.840 it's lost. You get into all these concerns, and then 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.560 you get into all these additional theological concerns, Well, what 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.760 happens to my soul when it's not in a body, 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.360 is there an intermediate place that it goes to? And 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.480 we touched on some of the additional issues in our 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.680 our episode on Hell and the problem with Hell when 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.840 you start figuring out, well, where does the soul go 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.520 when it goes to Hell, because a lot of these 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.440 interpretations of hell also require you to have a physical 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.760 body again in order for it to work, and then 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:18.040 in some cases your soul is destroyed. It's logistical nightmare 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.120 because yes, you, like you said, you know, if the 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.240 body didn't come back exactly as it was, what about 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.760 the soul? Do they match up? And this is really interesting. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.720 Stephen Cave had pointed this out in his talk that 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.880 Romans would get so annoyed with early Christians about this 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.480 idea of resurrection that they would say, Okay, you think 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.920 this guy's coming back, We'll let me chop him up 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.120 to bits and pieces and bury him in various locations 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.199 throughout these lands, and we'll see if he gets resurrected bodily, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.520 you know, resurrect that. It was kind of mean spirited 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.200 by the Romans, you have to admit though they were 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.199 trying to prove a point, But yes, it was um 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.120 any anytimes you're anytime you're chopping up a corpse. Just 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.000 despite your seria, it's you're you're in a weird area 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.120 and you need to rethink where you are. But but 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.120 to your point, uh, it does. It's just one slice 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.520 of the cake when you're looking at the problems and 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:14.520 trying to square away, um, how bodily resurlection resurrection would work. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.000 And then you've got that soul, the idea that this 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.199 soul might persist. Yeah, this now, the idea that there 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.920 is this um, this part of us that is spirit. 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.320 That's of course, and it's a very ancient idea. You 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.920 look back to the the ancient Egyptians, you look back 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.560 to even more primitive models, uh, and you will see 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.120 this idea that there's something in us that lives on. Now, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.280 they're sort of cave focuses on just one version of this, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.600 but they're they're according to some other experts, they're they're 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.760 kind of two. One is the idea of an astral body. Now, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.040 that's the idea that when we're alive, we're just kind 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.520 of this conjoined thing. We have two bodies. We have 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.640 a physical body and an astral body living is one. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.920 And then when that physical body dies this astral body 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.800 lives on to U two, mourn for our own death too, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.920 maybe haunt somewhere, to say goodbye to loved ones, to 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.640 go off wandering through the universe, what have you? Uh. 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.560 But and it's and it's worth on. This is the idea, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.040 this is the the immortality, this is the life after 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.920 death that is most commonly encountered in works of fiction. 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.600 Jacob Marley's ghost that is essentially an astral body. It's 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.120 really convenient, yeah, because your your body dies and then 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.040 there's this sort of see through you that looks just 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.440 like you. It's it's a Hamlet's ghost. And it's also 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.480 a kind of version of life after death that we 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.240 often end up buying into, at least a little bit, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.360 you know now and again, despite what we believe, uh, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.400 you know, based on our faith, based on our science, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.840 based on our reason as we discussed in our Hell episode. Uh, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.720 it's it's rare for someone to really have one solid 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.040 idea of what they think the soul is and what 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.440 the the the afterlife may or may not consist of. 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.320 We're we're likely to dabble, as humans were likely to 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.240 entertain certain ideas or believe in things on one level, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:59.599 while we don't believe in them in the other, and 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.520 the astral body is one of them. Now, from the 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.800 astral body, we get into the idea of the immaterial soul. Well, now, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.679 what's the difference. The difference is that the astral body 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.880 is like, my body dies, and here's this version of me, 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.200 that spirit that looks just like me. But the immaterial 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.080 soul doesn't necessarily look like a body. It's just like 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.640 it's an energy. It's it can't be perceived by the senses, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.360 and and it and it doesn't need the body to exist. Right, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.760 And that idea dates back at least in a formal 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:32.480 form to Plato. So again, im material soul, astral body. 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.280 It's a great literary device, right, because you can really 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.360 call into that presence. But there's this idea that we 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.360 all have that there's this core to ourselves, you know, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.120 that perhaps could persist beyond us, that what makes me 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.880 me certainly couldn't die with my physical body. Yeah, and 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.960 Plato is really into it based on two core arguments. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.280 One was the cycle of opposites. This is the idea 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.040 that that that everything in the natural world hasn't has 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.640 an opposite, And these opposites are often interlocked. So death 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.600 comes from life, and therefore life must come from death 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.120 and uh, and the other the other argumenting makes is 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.360 is reminiscence. And this is the idea that that the 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.079 view of learning is really the process of remembering knowledge 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.120 from past lives, which, you know, you could take that 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.079 in different interpretations. You could just go on with the 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.080 straight up um um, you know, hippie dippie past lives 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.440 kind of view, where you know, I've been an Egyptian 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.760 king in my past life, or you can maybe even 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.800 look at that from a sort of a genetic counterpoint. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.440 That's one of the interesting things when you start looking 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.960 at at some of these ideas of immortality, like what, uh, 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.760 you know, what is reminiscence, but but epigenetic or genetic 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:38.880 influence on who you are, you can sort of go 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.280 wild with sort of breaking these down and trying to 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.160 apply Yeah, you're not going to have your grandmother's um 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.400 sort of our great grandmother's ghostly experiences, but as you say, 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.560 you might have epigenetic markers of her physical experience manifest 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.040 themselves in you later in physical ways in which genetics 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.559 get turned on and off. So that's very interesting. The 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.199 third way that Cave says that we are chasing immortality 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.640 is that we're trying to solve death. And he says, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.439 this has been going on for time immemorial, and you've 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.040 got alchemy and now you have all sorts of different technologies. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.559 Today you have nanotechnology, you have different ways of delivering drugs. 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.280 This is and we've talked about this with Aubrey de 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.520 Gray who says that the first person UH to live 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.080 to five hundred years old has already been born today 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.600 because we have these sort of technologies that can maintain 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.240 our bodies like a classic car. And you start to 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.480 think about this, You think our ancestors lived to be 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.880 forty years old. We now have a life expectancy of 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.560 eighty years old currently right now. Um, is this a 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:44.600 kind of Moore's law of life expectancy that is emerging 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.720 the you know, the Moore's law of the idea that 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.160 computer processing can be doubled every two years. So in 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.800 the same way, you know, every x amount of decades 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.680 is human life extending by twenty years. Yeah. He makes 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.080 an impressive argument and uh, and he also takes the 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.480 war against death, which is that's the whole topic in itself, 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.280 I mentioned, but he breaks it down into into core 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.800 arguably winnable battles like this is what death is. This 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.840 is what is happening on a physical level to the body. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.080 And here are the areas where we can we could 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.040 fight it. We figured, you know, and we discussed in 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.280 the past, past episode, So I'll refer you back to 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.360 that for all the details are degree in its ways 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:29.200 to vanquish death. Yeah. So the fourth type of immortality 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.200 that Stephen Cave says we we are after is narrative. 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.560 And this is what we were sort of alluding to 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.840 with the body's exhibit. Here we have this kind of 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.560 narrative unfolding that will ensure some sort of immortality of 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.600 the story of the bodies that are displayed of the 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.480 person who created this plascination technique. Yeah, it's the idea 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.600 that even though everything that we are is going to 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.280 cease to exist at some point, the things that we created, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.600 the things that we influenced, are going to live on, um, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.120 you know, not forever, but at least for a while, right, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.680 and are close enough to forever for the you know, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.320 for that brief life that we have. Yeah. Again, this 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.560 idea that through achievement by becoming so famous that your 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:15.040 your name lives on or infamous. Right. You know, if 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:16.880 you can't give the fame, go for the infamy. It's 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.080 generally easier to achieve, which, as we will discuss in 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.320 a little bit, could be tied up with the ways 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.760 that we behave. All right, before we go into that, 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.040 in this idea of being terrified of death and something 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:39.520 called terror management theory, let's take a quick break. All right, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.600 we are back, and before we get into terror management theory, 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.360 we have to talk about someone named Ernest Becker, Yes, 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.720 Ernest Becker, and he is the author of the book 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.320 The Denial of Death, and this is where we get 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:58.000 the idea of Terror management theory or t MT. That's right, 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.440 he was anthropologies. I actually want to polish a prize 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.840 for that work. It's in nineteen seventy three work and 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.879 among other things Becker Becker proposed that in times of crisis, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.800 when fears of death are aroused, people are more likely 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.880 to embrace leaders who provide psychological security by making their 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.840 citizens feel like they are valued contributors to a great 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.760 mission to eradicate evil. And that is what this terror 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.280 management theory is built on. It was proposed by social 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.840 psychologists in nineteen eighties six Jeff Greenberg, Tom Paczynski, and 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.640 Sheldon Solomon, and it was initiated by two really simple questions. 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.280 The first one was why do people have such a 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:42.560 great need to feel good about themselves? And too, why 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.199 do people have so much trouble getting along with those 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.680 people who have different ideas from them. Yeah, this is 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.640 a fascinating theory and one that really really drives home 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.440 a lot of what you end up seeing in the 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.600 world around you, especially as far as fearmongering, because when 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.320 political voices, when media voices start beating the wards ms 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.000 start mongering up all of that fear, they're playing into 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.199 t MT, that's right. Sheldon Solomon, who is one of 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.480 the authors of Terror Management Theory, in an interview with 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.840 John oh Lair for Scientific Americans, said, quote, although self 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.240 awareness gives rise to unbridled awe and joy, it can 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.159 also lead to the potentially overwhelming dread engendered by the 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.560 realization that, wait for this, it's so brutal, that death 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.040 is inevitable, that it can occur for reasons that can 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:33.320 never be anticipated or controlled, and that humans are corporeal 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:38.440 creatures breathing pieces of defecating meat no more significant or 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.880 enduring than porcupines of peaches. But he says that humans 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.479 as ingenious as we are have actually unconsciously solved this 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.160 existential dilemma by developing cultural world views. This has been 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.480 our savior when we are met with this kind of terror. Yeah, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.399 and the world view doesn't. We're not just talking about 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.680 views on what happening to the state of the soul 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.400 in the afterlife, but also views about what is important 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.639 in life? What is uh, you know, what are the 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.040 values I hold to? What what is the the US 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.840 group that I'm a part of, and what are the 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.040 other groups outside of my world view outside of this 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.320 this sphere that I've built for myself with ideas, this 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:22.119 fortress of ideas. Uh. This this whole TMT issue um 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.160 terror management theory really brings to mind a scene from 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.960 Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Willie want them, you know, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.679 the scene where they drink the fizzy lifting uh liquid 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.000 for fizzy liquid juice or soda or whatever it's it's called. 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.840 They're in this huge cylindrical room, right, they drink this 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.439 uh this stuff and they start floating and they're floating 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.320 them in the bubbles, and it's all fun and games 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.800 until they realize that there is a big circular fan 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.240 at the top of the room, and then if they 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.200 keep floating up, they're gonna be chopped to pieces. So 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.639 as they float up and up, they suddenly become aware. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.840 You know, at first, it's just all dreams and giggles. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.919 Though I'm floating around. It's wonderful. But then they realize 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.399 they're going to die, and then so what do they 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.800 start doing? Then they start figuring out how am I 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:06.679 going to stop? How am I gonna what am I 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:08.440 gonna do? And so what do you what are you doing? 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.760 That state the only thing you can do is reach 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.480 out and try and grab the structures around you in 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.639 these In this case, the structures are these worldviews that 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.199 we've built for ourselves, things that that that seem or 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.040 we've certainly built up to be solid, something to to 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.120 give us some grounding about our place in the universe, 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:30.000 about what's important, why it's important, and and and and 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.560 and why life itself is important. Yeah, Solomon says that 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:38.280 we manage this, this potentially paralyzing terror resulting from this 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.040 awareness of death, that fan, that we're being sucked into 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.280 and that cultures provide three things, one meaning by offering 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.679 an account of the origin of the universe to a 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.280 blueprint for acceptable conduct on Earth right. Three a promise 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.760 of immortality symbolically um. And it could be by a 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.840 creation of say a large monument, great works of art 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.720 or science, fortunes having children, and literally literally through various 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.280 kinds of afterlives that are central peace of organized religions. 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.920 And so the testable idea here is, if you confront 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.520 someone with death, are you going to can you actually 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.719 observe them reaching out and clinging to that structure, clinging 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.920 to those worldviews that they might have, you know, otherwise 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.440 otherwise drift a comfortable distance away from And is this 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.920 immortality narrative is it on some level destructive? Yeah? And 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.399 then the hidden question, and that is our most world views, 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.000 in their in their more little interpretation, destructive. But I'll 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.520 leave that to to our listeners to consider. Yeah. I mean, 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:42.960 because again we're talking about conceiving of death and very 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.720 abstract terms. Um. So when we fly too close to 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.239