1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to bow 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: you live in Atlanta, Georgia. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: or we live in to Caatijo, wherever we're in the 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: vast frawl that that that we call the city of Atlanta. 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: And uh, you have therefore been to the Bodies Exhibit, 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: because I think it's been entombed here in the city 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: for like a decade now. Yeah. Actually, I probably was 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: one of the first people who was lining up to 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: see that exhibit, sure that it would be gone within 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: weeks and I would never have a chance to see 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: these plastic sized cadavers frolicking around playing basketball. Yeah, we 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: had no idea that we would see flyers and and 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: posters for the Body's Exhibit for almost almost the next 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: ten years. It's it feels like on like every surface 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: imaginable on the Marta train, it just gets to where 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: your board with with it. You're just on your commute, 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: you're you're reading a book. You look up, Oh, there's 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: a flayed Chinese man. Yeah, although every once in a 21 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: while it will sort of catch me off guard. Like 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: if I come up an escalator and I saw I 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: see this raw imagery of this physical body in front 24 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: of me, I will be kind of shocked a bit 25 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: because it's really I mean, it's the human body stripped 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: to its bare essence. It's a reminder that we die, 27 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: that we are this material, and we're ephemeral beings that 28 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: this material it rots, it leaves. But the question is 29 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: is taking a cadaver, removing its skin, plasticizing it, and 30 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: then rearranging it. Is this really a confrontation with death? Yeah? 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: Because what goes through your mind when you confront this 32 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: this image of this this flayed body that's been it's 33 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: been essentially turned to plastic, but to retaining all of 34 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: its its features and surfaces. Uh, what are we thinking 35 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: when we watch it play chess or play basketball or 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: whatever the pose happens happens to be um, A lot 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: of the personality is taken away when you remove the 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: skin from it. It becomes more of an anatomical specimen 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: than a person. If you have any any lingering concerns 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: about who was this, this guy, this, this girl, you 41 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: know in their former life and and this is something 42 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: they wanted for themselves. Those tend that those thoughts that 43 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: tend to come later after you have left the facility. Yeah. 44 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: According to Jane Desmond, she's a professor of anthropology at 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: the University of Illinois and an author on a paper 46 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: on this very topic, she says, this process of subtraction 47 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: that's taken away all the social markers in a sense, 48 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: idealizes and universalizes these individuals so that symbolically they come 49 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: to stand for undifferentiated humans, which allows us to look 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: with impunity. Impunity because we're not really looking at the 51 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: person or an individual. And she says, in many ways, 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: we don't see graphic images of death. We see fictionalized 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: images of death. Yeah. And I would also add that 54 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: that the bodies exhibit in the in the way that 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: these these cadavers are are frozen in time like this, 56 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: they're more symbols of life than death. You're seeing like 57 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: this eternally living uh sample of physiology before you. You're 58 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: not seeing a rotting body. You're seeing this eternally fresh 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: red uh, you know, just right off the meat counter body. 60 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: That's I love the way you put that, because it 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: really does show you the distance that we have put 62 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: between ourselves and death. We think we're confronting it because 63 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: we're seeing the human body which is no longer alive, 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: laid bare, but really we are immortalizing it. Yeah, and 65 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: I imagine that's not what the Gunte von Hagens, the 66 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: German physician and anatomist uh that created the body's exhibit, 67 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: really wanted for us. Uh. Gunther On Haggins seems like 68 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,839 Speaker 1: a guy who's all about confronting death. He himself often 69 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: talks about his inevitable demise from Parkinson's disease, so it's 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting that he's created something that distances us from 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: death rather than brings us closer to our under standing 72 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: of it. Well, and in a sense too, he's immortalizing 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: himself through this act right live on in history as 74 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: the person who came up with this plastination technique which 75 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: allowed people to really view cadavers in various ways, whether 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: or not they were reconfigured to look like they were 77 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: playing sports, or maybe one section of their body was 78 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: cut up so much so that you could really see 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: the tissues in a way that had never really been 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: displayed before. So I wanted to bring up this this 81 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: idea by Burned Heinrich, and I'm reading a book by 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: him right now called Everlasting Life, and it's about insect 83 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 1: and animal death and it's really interesting, and he says 84 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: that human death is becoming more and more divorced from nature. 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: We pump are dead with polluting chemicals like formaldehyde. We 86 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: put them into airtight boxes and then plant them in 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: precious real estate that could be used for agriculture. We 88 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: think we're denying death that way. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I've 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: I've thought this for some time. It's just look, go 90 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: to these remarkable meanings to distance ourselves not only from 91 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: the decay of the body, but but also from the 92 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: act of dying. I mean, we have whole institutions in 93 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: place so that we don't have to confront the realities 94 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: of physical death, right so much so to the point 95 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: that we're embalming ourselves and this hope that there's some 96 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: sort of immortality available to us. And that's what we're 97 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: gonna talk about today, This idea of immortality, why it's problematic, 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: and why we need this story of immortality yea, and 99 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: arguably why immortality and the quest for immortality is at 100 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: the heart of every human endeavor. Now we'll we'll put 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: that to you the end of the episode. If you 102 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: believe that that the quest for immortality is in fact 103 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: such a vital part of who we are as humans, 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: or if there's a little more to us right like 105 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, could it be affecting 106 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: our decisions? Yeah, we shall see. Now, I feel like 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: we should before we go further, we should discuss our 108 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: own takes on this. I feel like I probably think 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: about death a lot, and I feel like I've always 110 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of thought about death. Um Like, I can't remember 111 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: a time when when I when I didn't think about it, 112 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: and and and it's not not like I was encountering 113 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: death at an early stage in life. You know, my 114 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: life was was comfortably death free for for the longest 115 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: period of time. But it seems like there's always been 116 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: a kind of confrontation of it, at least in the 117 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: media that I've consumed throughout my life. So it seems 118 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: like I've I've always been there with it. Yeah. I 119 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: I have said before that this podcast has had me 120 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: thinking about it quite a bit um since we began. 121 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: Although I am difficult to work with right, right, I'll 122 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: just bring me death, no, but more and from the 123 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: route of consciousness, because I equate you know, non consciousness, 124 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: not so much sleep or or even coma with death. 125 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: But you know, basically, when you start thinking about consciousness 126 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: and life and you begin to try to center where 127 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: all this is coming from, inevitably you will land on 128 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: the death card and start to think about that. So 129 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: when we struck upon this talk by Stephen Cave who 130 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: has a book out about immortality and and he discusses 131 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: these various ways in which we approach immortality, it really 132 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: struck me because he says that we can't help it. 133 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: We humans have several different ways that we create this 134 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: narrative of immortality. And he says, really there are four 135 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: different types of it. One really well known. In fact, 136 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: it's a pretty historical one. I think everybody is familiar 137 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: with resurrection, this idea that you might come back to 138 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: life after dying, and this is a belief that is 139 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: found in various religions. We're talking about a literal resurrection 140 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: of the body, but also a heavenly resurrection or a 141 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: recycling of the soul into a new body and time, 142 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: which leads to different ideas about what this resurrection could be. Yeah, 143 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: this one's pretty pretty fabulous because again it's part of 144 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: the three major Judaeo Christian religions, I mean Judaism, Christianity, 145 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: and Islam. And it's the idea that resurrection life after 146 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: death involves you being born again in this body or 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: perhaps in another body just like this one, and we 148 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: it's it's often, it's often something that you end up 149 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: skimming over within those faiths. You end up being told, 150 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: all right, yeah, you know there's a bodily resurrection, but 151 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: you really end up buying into other ideas of resurrection 152 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: that we'll discuss um. Because there are so many complications. 153 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: You get into questions of well, which version of me, 154 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: which which body is going to come back? And my 155 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: coming back is this this rotting body of this uh, 156 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: this preserved body. What happens if something happens to the 157 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: body of the body is not not not prepared properly 158 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: for burial, but it's not buried the right way of 159 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: it's lost. You get into all these concerns, and then 160 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: you get into all these additional theological concerns, Well, what 161 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: happens to my soul when it's not in a body, 162 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: is there an intermediate place that it goes to? And 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: we touched on some of the additional issues in our 164 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: our episode on Hell and the problem with Hell when 165 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: you start figuring out, well, where does the soul go 166 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: when it goes to Hell, because a lot of these 167 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: interpretations of hell also require you to have a physical 168 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: body again in order for it to work, and then 169 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: in some cases your soul is destroyed. It's logistical nightmare 170 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: because yes, you, like you said, you know, if the 171 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: body didn't come back exactly as it was, what about 172 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: the soul? Do they match up? And this is really interesting. 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Stephen Cave had pointed this out in his talk that 174 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: Romans would get so annoyed with early Christians about this 175 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: idea of resurrection that they would say, Okay, you think 176 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: this guy's coming back, We'll let me chop him up 177 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: to bits and pieces and bury him in various locations 178 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: throughout these lands, and we'll see if he gets resurrected bodily, 179 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, resurrect that. It was kind of mean spirited 180 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: by the Romans, you have to admit though they were 181 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: trying to prove a point, But yes, it was um 182 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: any anytimes you're anytime you're chopping up a corpse. Just 183 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: despite your seria, it's you're you're in a weird area 184 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: and you need to rethink where you are. But but 185 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: to your point, uh, it does. It's just one slice 186 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: of the cake when you're looking at the problems and 187 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: trying to square away, um, how bodily resurlection resurrection would work. 188 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: And then you've got that soul, the idea that this 189 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: soul might persist. Yeah, this now, the idea that there 190 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: is this um, this part of us that is spirit. 191 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: That's of course, and it's a very ancient idea. You 192 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: look back to the the ancient Egyptians, you look back 193 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: to even more primitive models, uh, and you will see 194 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: this idea that there's something in us that lives on. Now, 195 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: they're sort of cave focuses on just one version of this, 196 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: but they're they're according to some other experts, they're they're 197 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: kind of two. One is the idea of an astral body. Now, 198 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: that's the idea that when we're alive, we're just kind 199 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: of this conjoined thing. We have two bodies. We have 200 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: a physical body and an astral body living is one. 201 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: And then when that physical body dies this astral body 202 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: lives on to U two, mourn for our own death too, 203 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: maybe haunt somewhere, to say goodbye to loved ones, to 204 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: go off wandering through the universe, what have you? Uh. 205 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: But and it's and it's worth on. This is the idea, 206 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: this is the the immortality, this is the life after 207 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: death that is most commonly encountered in works of fiction. 208 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: Jacob Marley's ghost that is essentially an astral body. It's 209 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: really convenient, yeah, because your your body dies and then 210 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: there's this sort of see through you that looks just 211 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: like you. It's it's a Hamlet's ghost. And it's also 212 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: a kind of version of life after death that we 213 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: often end up buying into, at least a little bit, 214 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: you know now and again, despite what we believe, uh, 215 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, based on our faith, based on our science, 216 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: based on our reason as we discussed in our Hell episode. Uh, 217 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: it's it's rare for someone to really have one solid 218 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: idea of what they think the soul is and what 219 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: the the the afterlife may or may not consist of. 220 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: We're we're likely to dabble, as humans were likely to 221 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: entertain certain ideas or believe in things on one level, 222 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: while we don't believe in them in the other, and 223 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: the astral body is one of them. Now, from the 224 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: astral body, we get into the idea of the immaterial soul. Well, now, 225 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: what's the difference. The difference is that the astral body 226 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: is like, my body dies, and here's this version of me, 227 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: that spirit that looks just like me. But the immaterial 228 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: soul doesn't necessarily look like a body. It's just like 229 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: it's an energy. It's it can't be perceived by the senses, 230 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: and and it and it doesn't need the body to exist. Right, 231 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: And that idea dates back at least in a formal 232 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: form to Plato. So again, im material soul, astral body. 233 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: It's a great literary device, right, because you can really 234 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: call into that presence. But there's this idea that we 235 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: all have that there's this core to ourselves, you know, 236 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: that perhaps could persist beyond us, that what makes me 237 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: me certainly couldn't die with my physical body. Yeah, and 238 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: Plato is really into it based on two core arguments. 239 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: One was the cycle of opposites. This is the idea 240 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: that that that everything in the natural world hasn't has 241 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: an opposite, And these opposites are often interlocked. So death 242 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: comes from life, and therefore life must come from death 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: and uh, and the other the other argumenting makes is 244 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: is reminiscence. And this is the idea that that the 245 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: view of learning is really the process of remembering knowledge 246 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: from past lives, which, you know, you could take that 247 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: in different interpretations. You could just go on with the 248 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: straight up um um, you know, hippie dippie past lives 249 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: kind of view, where you know, I've been an Egyptian 250 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: king in my past life, or you can maybe even 251 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: look at that from a sort of a genetic counterpoint. 252 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: That's one of the interesting things when you start looking 253 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: at at some of these ideas of immortality, like what, uh, 254 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, what is reminiscence, but but epigenetic or genetic 255 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: influence on who you are, you can sort of go 256 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: wild with sort of breaking these down and trying to 257 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: apply Yeah, you're not going to have your grandmother's um 258 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: sort of our great grandmother's ghostly experiences, but as you say, 259 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: you might have epigenetic markers of her physical experience manifest 260 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: themselves in you later in physical ways in which genetics 261 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: get turned on and off. So that's very interesting. The 262 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: third way that Cave says that we are chasing immortality 263 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: is that we're trying to solve death. And he says, 264 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: this has been going on for time immemorial, and you've 265 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: got alchemy and now you have all sorts of different technologies. 266 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: Today you have nanotechnology, you have different ways of delivering drugs. 267 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: This is and we've talked about this with Aubrey de 268 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: Gray who says that the first person UH to live 269 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: to five hundred years old has already been born today 270 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: because we have these sort of technologies that can maintain 271 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: our bodies like a classic car. And you start to 272 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: think about this, You think our ancestors lived to be 273 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: forty years old. We now have a life expectancy of 274 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: eighty years old currently right now. Um, is this a 275 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of Moore's law of life expectancy that is emerging 276 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: the you know, the Moore's law of the idea that 277 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: computer processing can be doubled every two years. So in 278 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: the same way, you know, every x amount of decades 279 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: is human life extending by twenty years. Yeah. He makes 280 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: an impressive argument and uh, and he also takes the 281 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: war against death, which is that's the whole topic in itself, 282 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: I mentioned, but he breaks it down into into core 283 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: arguably winnable battles like this is what death is. This 284 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: is what is happening on a physical level to the body. 285 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: And here are the areas where we can we could 286 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: fight it. We figured, you know, and we discussed in 287 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: the past, past episode, So I'll refer you back to 288 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: that for all the details are degree in its ways 289 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: to vanquish death. Yeah. So the fourth type of immortality 290 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: that Stephen Cave says we we are after is narrative. 291 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: And this is what we were sort of alluding to 292 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: with the body's exhibit. Here we have this kind of 293 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: narrative unfolding that will ensure some sort of immortality of 294 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: the story of the bodies that are displayed of the 295 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: person who created this plascination technique. Yeah, it's the idea 296 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: that even though everything that we are is going to 297 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: cease to exist at some point, the things that we created, 298 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: the things that we influenced, are going to live on, um, 299 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, not forever, but at least for a while, right, 300 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: and are close enough to forever for the you know, 301 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: for that brief life that we have. Yeah. Again, this 302 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: idea that through achievement by becoming so famous that your 303 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: your name lives on or infamous. Right. You know, if 304 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: you can't give the fame, go for the infamy. It's 305 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: generally easier to achieve, which, as we will discuss in 306 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: a little bit, could be tied up with the ways 307 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: that we behave. All right, before we go into that, 308 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: in this idea of being terrified of death and something 309 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: called terror management theory, let's take a quick break. All right, 310 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: we are back, and before we get into terror management theory, 311 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: we have to talk about someone named Ernest Becker, Yes, 312 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: Ernest Becker, and he is the author of the book 313 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: The Denial of Death, and this is where we get 314 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: the idea of Terror management theory or t MT. That's right, 315 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: he was anthropologies. I actually want to polish a prize 316 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: for that work. It's in nineteen seventy three work and 317 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: among other things Becker Becker proposed that in times of crisis, 318 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: when fears of death are aroused, people are more likely 319 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: to embrace leaders who provide psychological security by making their 320 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: citizens feel like they are valued contributors to a great 321 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: mission to eradicate evil. And that is what this terror 322 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: management theory is built on. It was proposed by social 323 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: psychologists in nineteen eighties six Jeff Greenberg, Tom Paczynski, and 324 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: Sheldon Solomon, and it was initiated by two really simple questions. 325 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: The first one was why do people have such a 326 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: great need to feel good about themselves? And too, why 327 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: do people have so much trouble getting along with those 328 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: people who have different ideas from them. Yeah, this is 329 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: a fascinating theory and one that really really drives home 330 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: a lot of what you end up seeing in the 331 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: world around you, especially as far as fearmongering, because when 332 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: political voices, when media voices start beating the wards ms 333 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: start mongering up all of that fear, they're playing into 334 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: t MT, that's right. Sheldon Solomon, who is one of 335 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: the authors of Terror Management Theory, in an interview with 336 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: John oh Lair for Scientific Americans, said, quote, although self 337 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: awareness gives rise to unbridled awe and joy, it can 338 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: also lead to the potentially overwhelming dread engendered by the 339 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: realization that, wait for this, it's so brutal, that death 340 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: is inevitable, that it can occur for reasons that can 341 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: never be anticipated or controlled, and that humans are corporeal 342 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: creatures breathing pieces of defecating meat no more significant or 343 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: enduring than porcupines of peaches. But he says that humans 344 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: as ingenious as we are have actually unconsciously solved this 345 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: existential dilemma by developing cultural world views. This has been 346 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: our savior when we are met with this kind of terror. Yeah, 347 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: and the world view doesn't. We're not just talking about 348 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: views on what happening to the state of the soul 349 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: in the afterlife, but also views about what is important 350 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: in life? What is uh, you know, what are the 351 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: values I hold to? What what is the the US 352 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: group that I'm a part of, and what are the 353 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: other groups outside of my world view outside of this 354 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: this sphere that I've built for myself with ideas, this 355 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: fortress of ideas. Uh. This this whole TMT issue um 356 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: terror management theory really brings to mind a scene from 357 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Willie want them, you know, 358 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: the scene where they drink the fizzy lifting uh liquid 359 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: for fizzy liquid juice or soda or whatever it's it's called. 360 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: They're in this huge cylindrical room, right, they drink this 361 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: uh this stuff and they start floating and they're floating 362 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: them in the bubbles, and it's all fun and games 363 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: until they realize that there is a big circular fan 364 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: at the top of the room, and then if they 365 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: keep floating up, they're gonna be chopped to pieces. So 366 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: as they float up and up, they suddenly become aware. 367 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: You know, at first, it's just all dreams and giggles. 368 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: Though I'm floating around. It's wonderful. But then they realize 369 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: they're going to die, and then so what do they 370 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: start doing? Then they start figuring out how am I 371 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: going to stop? How am I gonna what am I 372 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: gonna do? And so what do you what are you doing? 373 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: That state the only thing you can do is reach 374 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: out and try and grab the structures around you in 375 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: these In this case, the structures are these worldviews that 376 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: we've built for ourselves, things that that that seem or 377 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: we've certainly built up to be solid, something to to 378 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: give us some grounding about our place in the universe, 379 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: about what's important, why it's important, and and and and 380 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: and why life itself is important. Yeah, Solomon says that 381 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: we manage this, this potentially paralyzing terror resulting from this 382 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: awareness of death, that fan, that we're being sucked into 383 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: and that cultures provide three things, one meaning by offering 384 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: an account of the origin of the universe to a 385 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: blueprint for acceptable conduct on Earth right. Three a promise 386 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: of immortality symbolically um. And it could be by a 387 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: creation of say a large monument, great works of art 388 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: or science, fortunes having children, and literally literally through various 389 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: kinds of afterlives that are central peace of organized religions. 390 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: And so the testable idea here is, if you confront 391 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: someone with death, are you going to can you actually 392 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 1: observe them reaching out and clinging to that structure, clinging 393 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: to those worldviews that they might have, you know, otherwise 394 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: otherwise drift a comfortable distance away from And is this 395 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: immortality narrative is it on some level destructive? Yeah? And 396 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: then the hidden question, and that is our most world views, 397 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: in their in their more little interpretation, destructive. But I'll 398 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: leave that to to our listeners to consider. Yeah. I mean, 399 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: because again we're talking about conceiving of death and very 400 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: abstract terms. Um. So when we fly too close to 401 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 1: that son of death, you know, we we we do 402 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: get singed by it, and we recoil and back into 403 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: ourselves and back into that immortality narrative. And the thing 404 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: that makes us fly too close that son of death 405 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: is something called mortality salience. Yeah, and that's just straight 406 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: up that moment when you realize, hey, I'm gonna die, 407 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: the closer you are to the reality uh and the 408 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: the well, maybe not acceptance of death, but at least 409 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: the confrontation of death. Now. Solomon says that there's a 410 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: huge body of evidence that shows that's just that momentarily, uh, 411 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: thinking about death typically by asking people to think about themselves. 412 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: Dying intensifies as people strivings to protect and bolster the 413 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: aspects of the world views that they coddle and hold dear. Yeah, 414 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: I mean it's we all encounter little bits of this 415 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: in our own life. You know, something, something bad happens 416 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: in the world. Are you hear you hear a story 417 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: about someone else in in your city or your neighborhood 418 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: dying or suffering, uh, some sort of bad bit of luck. 419 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: And then suddenly you're a little more like, well, maybe 420 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: I should, uh you know, maybe I should go home 421 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: and check on the house. Maybe I should uh you know, 422 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: upgrade the security systems. Maybe I should do this to 423 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: the other Suddenly the threats in life become a little 424 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: more real and it's changed your behavior. Right, you go 425 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: out and you get in his security systems. There have 426 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: been three hundred independent studies about mortality salience in whether 427 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: or not effects our behavior and in twenty different countries 428 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: that has lent support to this idea of terror management theory. 429 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: But perhaps one of the first studies is the most 430 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: startling in its ability to show people doubling down on 431 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: their beliefs when they think that they've been violated and 432 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: they're reminded at death at the same time. And Solomon 433 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: in his team pursued this with a group of judges. Yes, 434 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: this took place in Tucson, Arizona, and uh and involved 435 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: it involved actually recruited court judges because they wanted people 436 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: who whose job it is in theory to make unbiased 437 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: decisions about about issues of well, if not mortality, than 438 00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: at least ethics and law rational thinkers. Yeah, so, so 439 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: what do they confront them with? A nice sort of 440 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: a nice gray area, a nice a nice mortal quandary 441 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: for anyone to to chew over prostitution of course, Okay, 442 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about twenty two municipal court judges, and they 443 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: were told that in the study that the team was 444 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: studying the relation between personality traits, attitudes and bond decisions. 445 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: Bond decisions, of course, being that sum of money that 446 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: judges will assign that a defendant pays prior to trial 447 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: so that they can be released from prison. So what 448 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: did they do Well. They gave judges a set of 449 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: questionnaires that consisted of the standard personality assessment instruments, but 450 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: they also squeaked in a couple of those mortality salience 451 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: in there. And they did it by asking um them 452 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: to say, please briefly describe the emotions that the thought 453 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: of your own death arouses in you. And the second 454 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: one was jotted down as specifically as you can what 455 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: you think will happen to you as you physically die 456 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: and once you're physically dead. Now, only half of those 457 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: twenty two judges were given these sort of doctored personality 458 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: questions that had that mortality mortality salience in them. So 459 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: they each of the judges review the brief. They they 460 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: review this case of this individual brought in on a 461 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: prostitution charge, and they have to decide where they're going 462 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: to set the bond, right, how much money is the 463 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: is the is the individual going to have to pay 464 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: in order to walk the streets? Again, that's right. Judges 465 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: in the control conditions set an average bond of fifty dollars. 466 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: These are the people who did not have the reminders 467 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: of death, and that's a typical charge for this kind 468 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: of case. But the judges who thought about their death 469 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: set an average bond of four hundred and fifty five dollars. Yes, 470 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: so I'd like to like for you can imagine that 471 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: that room in the Willy Wonka movie, and here are 472 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: the judges. He's flow here, she is floating free am 473 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: in the bubbles, you know, and and they they're thinking, oh, well, prostitution, 474 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: it's a it's a great it's a very complicated issue. Uh. 475 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: You know, a nice low bond is a is an 476 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: acceptable place, uh from to to to to decide on 477 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: this particular topic. Then there made to look up. They 478 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: see the fan, they think about in imminent death, and 479 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: what do they do. They reach out. They hold onto 480 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: that structure that that that worldview structure that's made out 481 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: of morals and uh and ethics and ideas about what's 482 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: wrong and right in life. Maybe some of these ideas 483 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: are things that they have they've drifted away from a 484 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: lot in their life, you know, they they've drift away 485 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: from in their professional career. But just thinking about death 486 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: makes them clinging back to that, uh, that skeleton of 487 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: ideas and then make this, uh, this, this rougher call 488 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: on what the bond should be said at. And the 489 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: problem is that it can really cloud your thinking, right, 490 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: and it can actually like this is the real problem, 491 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: It can cause a person to be easily manipulated. And 492 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: this is where Becker's early work really comes into play 493 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: concerning fear and politics, and it's something that Solomon actually 494 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: followed up on with experiments in which participants were told 495 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: to review statements from and vote for one of three 496 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: political cool candidates. Okay, and they had different leadership styles. 497 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: We're talking about charismatic, task oriented in relationship oriented. The 498 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 1: participants then selected the candidate that they would vote for. Now, 499 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: in the control condition, those people who didn't get the 500 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: death reminders, only four of participants voted for the charismatic candidate. Now, 501 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: for those people who were given the the death reminder, 502 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: there was an almost eight hundred percent increase in votes 503 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: for the charismatic leader. And Solomon again followed up with 504 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: several other studies concerning President Bush the Second and John 505 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: Kerry and found again and again that when those death 506 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: reminders were sublime early or overtly inserted, bushes support levels 507 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: sword the charismatic candidate. So again we're reminded of death, 508 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: we end up clinging to these worldviews. It's it's it's 509 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: fascinating and frightening to think about, because it really breaks 510 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: down what's happening in the world around is I'm I'm 511 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: both a large and a small level. Certainly when we 512 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: see the media or a politician, uh, you know, mongering 513 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: up those feelings of insecurity and fear, but but also 514 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: like the smaller moments in life, like when you see 515 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: some sort of really severe attitude on something suddenly come 516 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: out of a person that and you didn't expect it 517 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: by For instant example, this I was I was, I 518 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: was hearing about somebody talking about encountering this guy who 519 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: suddenly out of nowhere. Um mentioned that he didn't think 520 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: that his his son should wear pink, just in case 521 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: it would have some sort of a negative influence on 522 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: his character. For for an infant to wear the color pink. 523 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: Uh and and the the individual who said this was 524 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: somebody that when they would normally look at them and think, oh, 525 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: this this is just a normal dude. This guy doesn't 526 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: have any weird hang ups. But but now that after 527 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: I've you know, really read about this, this t M 528 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: T about t MT and its effects. Honest, you can 529 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: easily imagine, uh, this this being a guy who maybe 530 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: grew up with that kind of severe worldview in his 531 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: in the backbone of his of his his views on life, 532 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: he's drifted away from him. And then something like having 533 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: a child, uh bring him a little closer to that mortality, 534 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: make him have to think about that and therefore force 535 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: him to cling to some of these, uh, these ideas 536 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: and notions that he normally would have drifted away from. Yeah, 537 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: and you can look at heteronorms really that the basis 538 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: of that is being um motivated from fear, fear of 539 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: the other. So and by the way, pink used to 540 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: be a color that men war like back in the day. 541 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: I think Josh Clark usually has an article on that. Uh. 542 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: So to delightful color. I wish, you know, I wish 543 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: everyone would be cool with it. Yeah, except for that 544 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: pepptal bismol one. Yeah, that and that just reminds you 545 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: of throwing up. Yeah, and that's a shade that's often 546 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: found in hospitals, to which I find really disconcerting. But anyway, 547 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: that's for another day. Yea color color theory. That's that 548 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: would be a whole other episode that we should probably 549 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: do someday. We probably should. Um. But the thing is 550 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: is that we can't help but cling to these immortality myths, 551 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: these narratives. And his piece for The New York Times, 552 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: Cave actually wrote this opinion opinion piece that looks at 553 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: the BBC show Torchwood, which examines immortality and death and says, 554 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: what would happen to all our death defying systems? If 555 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: there were no more death, we would have no need 556 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: for progress or our faith or fame. Suddenly we would 557 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: have nothing to do. Yet, in the greatest of ironies, 558 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: we would have endless eons in which to do it. 559 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: Action would lose its purpose, in time, its value. This 560 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: is the true awfulness of immortality. Yeah, this is this 561 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: is where we get into the really deep far future 562 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: gazing stuff where for for a while that there's been 563 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: that idea. Okay, if we can live forever, we just 564 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: get bored. What would we do now? On one hand, 565 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: I definitely buy that because I I like to think 566 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: of of books. For instance, Uh, we've all read a 567 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: book that's that really strikes a chord with us. We're 568 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: really digging, and on some level we think, Man, I 569 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: wish this book would never end because I'm enjoying it 570 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: that much. But of course books follow a certain pattern. 571 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: There's a narrative arc, there's a there's a story that 572 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: has to be told, their pinpoints that have to be hit. 573 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: There's rising action, there's following action, there's a climax, uh, etcetera. 574 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: And and so it has to follow that basic pattern 575 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: in order to be effective. And that's why you're loving 576 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: it so much, because because it is obeying a form 577 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: and function. If it went on forever, then it would 578 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: lose that form and function, and then it would lose 579 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: its effect to to to entertain you. So and I 580 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: feel like life is sort of like that. You know, 581 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: there has to be a short amount of time in 582 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: which to accomplish things. There has to be um uh, 583 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: the rising action and following action for it all to 584 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: make sense. But then on the other hand, when when 585 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: mortals say, oh, immortality probably sucks because you probably would 586 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: get bored, it does sort of sound like um like 587 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: us non celebrity us, non you know, super rich people 588 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: thinking oh, well those rich people, they're they're just all miserable. Anyway, 589 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: we're in deep down. We we like to think. But 590 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: if I had it, if I had that money, if 591 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: I had an immortality, well, I could probably do something 592 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: proper with it. Yeah, the lottery might destroy the average 593 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: person because it's just too much money and and just 594 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: totally destroys their lives. But me, I think I might 595 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: be able to pull it off because I'm I'm a 596 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: little more grounded, and I feel like we we all 597 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: have those feelings. That is, it's the fantasy. It's again 598 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: the immortality fantasy that we all have that if we 599 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: could just reach it, we would do something worthwhile with it. Now, 600 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: in the meantime, we have mortality to deal with, and 601 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: so the question becomes, is there a better way to 602 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: deal with our own mortality rather than play into fear. 603 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: I mean, narratives of immortality are great, but is there 604 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: a way to be rational about death and not disince 605 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: ourselves from it, really examine it and be okay with it. Well, 606 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about here is simply and 607 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: we talk about it. Can we have conversations about death? 608 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: And can we you know, if not actually dragged the 609 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: bodies out into the open and um, you know, and 610 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: pull them apart. Can we at least drag the topic 611 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: out in the open and pull it apart? Yeah? No. Um. 612 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: Becker of The Denial of Death, which was written at 613 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: teen seventy three, said, stripping away the destructions of death quote, 614 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: with the right intensity and scope of shock, we might 615 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: even ask ourselves what are we to do with our lives? 616 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: We might then begin to think of how again to 617 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: give to people a secure feeling that their lives count, 618 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: that there is a heroic human condition contribution to be 619 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: made to cosmic life. In a dialogue with the community 620 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: of Once Fellows, that was very nice. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, 621 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: in a way, it's it's about taking the punch out 622 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: of death, you know, because in all this distancing ourselves 623 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: from it, which we've done just throughout human history, we 624 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: end up giving it so much more power. We i mean, 625 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: the very active personifying death of creating this kind of 626 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: like grim reaper image that either exist as an actual 627 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: symbol or listen on abstract symbol in the human psyche. 628 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: It comes from from this point in our time where 629 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: we we get away from the idea that death is 630 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: something that our body does, and rather it's something external. 631 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: Death is something that happens to it's death is something 632 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: that's done to us. It's an enemy that can be 633 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,959 Speaker 1: thought and can be defeated and should be feared rather 634 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: than a natural part of the ark. You can actually 635 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: meet up at something called a death cafe if you 636 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: wanted to discuss this, and if you go to death 637 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: dot com you will be met with the message. At 638 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: death cafes, people drink tea, eat cake and discuss death. 639 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: Our aim is to increase awareness of death to help 640 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: people make the most of their finite lives. You can 641 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: find meetups in your city. I would hope we all listen, 642 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: we all wear black and listen to eyesters into New 643 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: Button as well. Like it seems like that would be 644 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: a good, good vibe. I'm getting a very German vibe 645 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: from all of this. I don't know, I'm getting some 646 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: like some red hat society people. Yeah, yeah, why not 647 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: cheerful discussions? Yeah, instead of going to nonsense and um, celebrating, 648 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: you know, with your passage into menopause, why not go 649 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: to the death cafe. That may be something that I 650 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,479 Speaker 1: do instead of doing the red hat thing. Yeah, yeah, 651 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: I'm planning ahead. Well, you know, you should definitely check 652 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: one of these out and then report back. I mean, 653 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: our listeners should do the same. I was thinking about that. Actually, 654 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: you know. The one thing I always come back to 655 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: is a is something my dad told him, and he said, 656 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: and he was talking about death at some point, and 657 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: he said, well, you know, everybody does it, so it 658 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: couldn't be that big of a deal. And uh and 659 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: and certainly that's the case. Everybody dies. And I don't 660 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: even necessarily buy into this idea that there there's anyone 661 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: alive today that's going to live to see six years old, 662 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: or much less that six thousand year point. That actuaries 663 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: have have figured out that if you could live forever 664 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: like six thousand, it's pretty much the maximum you get 665 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: to without dying in a car wreck or something. Um. Yeah, 666 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: I saw that, but then I don't know, there's so 667 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: many problems I have with that. Um, it's the other 668 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: way of looking at it, in a more sort of 669 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: cosmic way to think about it is you have existence 670 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: and you have non existence, and throughout human history, each 671 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: of us has not existed, and then for just an 672 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: instant we've existed, and then we're gonna not exist again. 673 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: We have so much experience that not existing that we 674 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: were gonna be able to handle it just fine. This 675 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: is not gonna be really a new state for any 676 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: of us. It's gonna be returned to the status quo. Uh. 677 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: And and then another way to look at it, too 678 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: is to think about the nature of time. Uh. And 679 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: you know when we talk about oh, living forever, uh, 680 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: that we want to be something that that lasts in 681 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: this universe. But as we've discussed before, if you if you, 682 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: if you look at time and space and you you 683 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: take away the human perspective, uh, in time and space 684 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: are one, and there's no moment that has been or 685 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: will be or is right now that has any uh 686 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: any any special privilege in the time space continuum. So 687 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: in a sense, everything is currently uh nothing really was 688 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: or will be. So everything is immortal. I mean, it's 689 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: all part of the fabric of the universe. I always 690 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: think about this way. You think that Oprah is sort 691 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: of an immortal being right, everybody knows her, all corners 692 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: of the earth, perhaps Bill Gates even maybe there uh, 693 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: these sort of iconic images will laugh for five hundred years, 694 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: a thousand, maybe ten thousand, doubt it. But you know, 695 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: all of this, even this, even these immortality narratives that 696 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 1: we come up with our finite except for Gilgamesh, because 697 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: that one, which is, you know, one of the like 698 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: the oldest story about the quest for immortality, it sticks 699 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: with us. But otherwise the Osmandiez principle definitely applies to everybody. 700 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: No matter how awesome you are, no matter how much 701 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: of an impact you make on this life, you're probably 702 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: gonna be forgotten eventually. Now, if anybody's interested in that 703 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: six thousand year figure that we dropped, the actuaries are saying, hey, 704 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: that's a possibility. I believe that's from the Economist article 705 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: that features Stephen Cave. I'm sorry, I don't have the 706 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: title with me right now, but if you want to 707 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: check that out, you can just go to Economist dot com. 708 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: All right, so we have presented you with a lot 709 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: of food for thought about immortality, about the nature of 710 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: the human soul, about our about how terror management theory 711 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: um effects us? I mean, does the fear of death 712 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: and the quest for immortality really influence us at such 713 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: a deep and impressive level? Uh, it's it's certainly a 714 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: strong argument. Um. Also, what would happen if we if 715 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: we could live forever? That's a wonderful question to explore. 716 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: Do you think that we would get bored? Uh? And 717 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: uh and and just lose interest? Do you think that 718 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: we'd find enough stuff to occupy our minds for three 719 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: hundred years, six thousand years? Or what have you? Do 720 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: you believe you follow the philosophy of Emmanuel? Can't that 721 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: who who stated that if that without a belief in 722 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: God and a belief in the immortal nature of the soul, 723 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: that there would there'd be no virtue in the world 724 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: at all. That it's ultimately that that fear of of 725 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: what will happened to us and what will happen to 726 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: us long term, that it that informs human morality? Or 727 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: is there a kinder way for for humans to organize themselves? Also, 728 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: would you want to live forever? I would love to 729 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 1: see what the results are from you guys on that one. Well, 730 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: on that note, let's call over the robot because I 731 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: have a related bit of listener mail to share here. 732 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: This coming to us through Facebook. Alec writes in and says, Hi, 733 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: my name is Alec. I love your podcast so much 734 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: that I've been going back and listening to all the 735 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: old ones. I recently listened to the death on Ice 736 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: podcast and this brought up so many what if scenarios. 737 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: One I thought of is what if someone is signed 738 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: up to be put on ice, you know, crime frozen, 739 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: but committed a horrible crime and are put to death 740 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: by the state. Will they be allowed to be frozen afterwards? 741 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,439 Speaker 1: Does that count is serving their sentence even if revived later. 742 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: The other interesting scenario I thought of, UH could make 743 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: a good future drama or sitcom where the guy's wife 744 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: dies and his frozen, then he marries again and him 745 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: and his current wife or frozen later and all three 746 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: year brought back at the same time. That'd be crazy, 747 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: and that would indeed be for make for an awesome 748 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: futuristic sitcom. But indeed, when we start talking about the 749 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: idea of living forever or uh coming back to life 750 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: in some sort of scientific sense and all with all 751 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: of its complications, then does life after death and or 752 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: resurrection and or immortality. Do these things become basic human 753 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: rights or these just privileges for the elite? Yeah, we 754 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: talked about this before that there's a service called Virtual 755 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: Eternity which will actually give people different levels of access 756 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: to your history and maybe even personal messages you want 757 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: to give to people in your life after you are gone. 758 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: And it brings up this whole idea of how you'll 759 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: be represented in this other way once you are gone. 760 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: Not to mention even just the ability one day to 761 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: try to download memories or you know, the synaptic uh 762 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: flashes that format. And if you want to see a 763 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: really cool fictional examination of that scenario, check out the 764 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: Black Mirror episode. I'll be right back, really top notch. 765 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, you want to check out all 766 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: sorts of podcasts that we've done, all the videos, the 767 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: blog post, what have you, links to our various social 768 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: media accounts including Facebook, Twitter and all that. You need 769 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: to go to stuff to blow your mind. Dot com Uh, 770 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: that's where you find everything. That's the mothership. Oh and 771 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: I want to add real quick to if you're a 772 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: long term listener or a new listener, uh, and you 773 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: dig our show and you're an iTunes user, go to 774 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: iTunes and give us a positive rating because the show 775 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: has been around for a long time and uh, and 776 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: there's their views on there from our very early days 777 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: when we had a different title, different set up and 778 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: we were just learning the ropes. Uh, So we could 779 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: use a little boost in the algorithm there every now 780 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: and then. So, so check us out, indeed, and if 781 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: you'd like to send us a note, you can do 782 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: so at Blow the Mind at Discovery dot com for 783 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Does It 784 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works dot com MHM