WEBVTT - External Exam - How Insects Solve Crimes with Forensic Entomologist, Dr. Jason Byrd 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.239 Hi everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. On this week's 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.720 External Exam, we will be speaking with doctor Jason Bird. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.159 Doctor Bird is a professor and Associate director of the 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.360 William R. Maples Center for Forensic Medicine at the University 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.879 of Florida's College of Medicine, and he is also a 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.640 board certified forensic entomologist. Hi, doctor Bird, Welcome The Mother 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:40.280 Knows Death. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.320 Hi, thanks for having me on, Thanks so much. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.360 For being here. Before we get started, can you tell 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.080 us exactly what an entomologist is for our listeners who 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:52.680 have no idea what. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.760 You do for a living well. An entomologist is a 0:00:55.800 --> 0:01:01.120 scientist who studies insects, and an insect is an organism 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:07.240 with three pairs of legs, six total three body segments 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:12.600 exosculpton of course, some compound eyes, and a pair of antennae. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:18.760 And forensic entomologists are entomologists who focus on insects of 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:23.000 forensic important particular species that are in the Carrian community. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.959 And the other thing that we really specialize in is 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.200 taking this very complex ecology of decomposers in the environment 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.119 and then being able to a explain it to law 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.200 enforcement in a way that they can understand how to 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.000 apply it for casework, apply it to case work to 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.920 determine things such as post more minerval estimations, movement of 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.320 bodies after death where the body may have come from geographically, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.360 and then post more to movement of remains, attempts to 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.320 conceal post more to handling, freezing of remains. All of 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.120 that will tend to change the insects on a and 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.200 then finally we have to go into a courtroom and 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.320 explain all of that to a trier effect be that, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.480 you know, just a judge and a judge based trial 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.920 or a jury, and the courtroom is not the classroom 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.960 sometimes a painful lesson. So trying to explain all of 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.639 that to a jury in a way that they can 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.960 not only believe you as a scientist, but more importantly 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.720 believe that your entomology the science can add some credibility 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.160 to the case and making it not overly complicated for 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.800 the jury. So if you can tie all of that together, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.560 then forensic entomology may be for you. 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.880 It's really interesting because I have little kids, and most 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.200 kids are scared of bugs, they freak out if there's 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.720 a fly near them or a bee near them. And 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.320 when you were a kid, were you interested in bugs? Like, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:00.720 how did you get in interested in this? 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.120 Well, I grew up on a very large farm, so agriculture, 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:12.080 you know, certainly was very familiar to me. And being 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.600 on a farm, you're not too far away from insects, right, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:17.240 I mean, you have to worry about insect control. You 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.240 see insects all the time. So I always thought that 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.040 they were very interesting, partricularly social insects and their seemingly 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.720 ability to communicate and have you know, hundreds thousands, tens 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.280 of thousands individuals all somehow work together to accomplish some 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.640 common goal for the overall organism, which is the colony. 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:36.640 So you know, I was always pretty impressed with that. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.600 And the only other thing that I really had an 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:45.080 interest in other than you know, the insects, is forensic science. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.040 And I'm not sure why didn't have any forensic scientists 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.800 in the family, just something that appealed to me. So 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.680 I was able to merge those two childhood interests into 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.000 a career in forensic entomology. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.480 So when you were younger and you didn't have anyone 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.400 in your family that did forensics, and the internet was 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.200 not what it is now. Obviously when you were younger, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.400 what how did you even know about it? 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.880 Well, magazine subscriptions, you know, back then there was the 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:23.560 Smithsonian magazine was popular National Geographic. There was a weekly 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.160 science magazine it was Science Digest, well that was published 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.039 of course, had some subscriptions to those. And then of 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.280 course the library. You know, go into the library public 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.400 libraries in the area and going into the science section 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.240 and just browsing books. And not a lot of people 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.040 appreciate it anymore. But you know, encyclopedia sets where I think, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.120 so you you can look up stuff in volumes encyclopedias. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.440 It may have been very old at that point in time, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.880 but encyclopedia's were a wealth of information. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.559 So when you got older and went to high school, 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.280 did you you know exactly what you wanted to go 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.880 to college for? And what did you go to college for? 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:05.799 At first? 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.040 Well, you know, I always maintain the interest in entomology 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.480 and forensic science, you know, as a kid, I mean 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.039 all throughout high school. So graduating high school, you know, 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:23.919 time to determine what to do. I really wanted to 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:29.880 go to college to do forensics, specifically crime scene investigation. 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.800 I wanted to be a crime scene investigator. Didn't want 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:34.760 to sit in a lab, you know, didn't want to 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.800 do chemistry or toxicology, and crime scene was something which 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.480 different each day, you know, outside a little bit of 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:47.599 outside work, a little bit inside work. So that was 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:52.279 really my goal was to do crime scene And even 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.080 at the time, really to get on with the State 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.039 of Florida, with the state crime lab system, you needed 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.520 a four year to inter natural science or chemistry or 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.080 physics biology. So I really set out to just get 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.520 a four year degree so I could check that box 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.920 and then apply for some crimson jobs. 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:16.599 And so when you started college, you didn't really did 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.560 you really know that there was a specialty for forensics 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.120 that you can combine forensics and your love of insects. 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:33.320 So, yes, I had the idea. I went. There were 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.920 several colleges that I was looking at, you all, in Florida, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.919 I was, I'm a Florida native, and uh, the University 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.680 of Florida was the land Grant college and you know, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.800 had the largest agricultural programs and a very large department 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.760 entomology as well. So I figured, well, if I'm going 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.480 to go to college. It's either going to be biology, 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.160 you know, or something in one of the ad colleges. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.080 And UF has, you know, the entomology department. So I 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.880 set up in a point it and went in to 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.919 talk to the undergraduate coordinator and of course, you know, 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.840 they have to go through the routine checklist and well, 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.040 why do you want this degree? And I said, well, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.040 you know, I would like this degree because it essentially 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.120 puts the you know, four year degree checkbox on applications, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.520 and I can do forensic science work. And the graduate 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.760 coordinator said, well, and had you ever been interested in 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.760 forensic entomology? I said, well, yo about you know, there 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.880 are no programs in Florida in it at that time, 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:36.720 There's only three in the United States that had programs 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.560 that you know, I knew about that were accepting students. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.280 And turns out that the day that I was in 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.840 their office, the local newspaper I had a front page 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.680 article on the university's medical inventory entomologist. And it wasn't 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.440 focusing on his medical inventary work. It was focusing on 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.880 his work as a forensic entomologist. So they slid the 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.840 paper over I. It was front page. I read the 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.160 headlines and read the first couple paragraphs, and I said, yeah, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.440 that sounds like something that would certainly fit my bill. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.960 And they said, well, would you like to go talk 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.040 to him? He's in his office. Said sure, so his 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.640 office was really across the hall, went in, talked to 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.440 him about my interest in forensic entomology. And then by 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.240 the time I left that day, I had a job 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:26.960 in his lab. I worked hourly as a student employee 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:31.200 and completed my undergraduate degree with him in the lab. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.520 So everything came together because of a newspaper article that 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.760 just happened to be the day I was in the 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:38.760 undergraduate coordinator's office. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.640 Oh my god, that's such fate, right, So what a 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:42.440 cool story. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.160 So I still have the paper. 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.120 Oh dare you that's really cool? Yeah you should. I mean, 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.160 that's like what you got, what started your story. I 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.080 love hearing things like this because a similar thing happened 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.079 to me too. How just the whole thing kind of 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.959 started falling in my lap day to day, just based 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.120 upon all these people I were meeting at school and stuff. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.559 And of course there was no Internet at the time 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.719 to be able to even know that some of these 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:10.280 things were even a possibility. So it's really cool that 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.400 that's how you got your start. So's it's also cool 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.280 to tell people that you originally started school just to 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.280 get a bachelor's degree, because the same thing happened with me. 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.360 I just first, I didn't even think I would be 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.880 a college person, and then I forced myself, Okay, I'll 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.480 just get an associate's degree, and then I kept going 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.040 and going. I never expected that I would in a 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.800 million years go to grad school. So you're a doctor, Now, 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.600 what do you have an MD PhD. What did you 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.800 go to school after your four year degree? 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.480 Yeah? So I completed a bachelor's degree four year degree 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:53.080 in entomology and the medical inventory entomologist. I had some 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:59.280 very large grants on insect a tractancy and developing repellents 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:05.080 for industry. And with that grant, you know, he was 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.160 able to provide me with employment and then which gave 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:09.760 me access to the lab so I could do my 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.200 own research. So I finished my masters in the same 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.920 lab in entomology, got an undergrad uh a graduate minor 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.600 in criminology and law. At the time, I was the 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.199 first person in u's history to crossover between entomology and 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.840 criminology and law. Uh, and I completed that master's degree. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.079 And during my master's degree, I wrote a grand proposal 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:36.040 for funding a PhD in forensic entomology, and then that 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.920 grant was awarded. So then I shifted my focus from 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.559 my work from medical entomology and insect repellants and attractments 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.920 over to just purely forensic science. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.680 I love that. So you have such a great story. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:54.120 I love this. So after you finished your PhD, you 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:59.360 became a board certified forensic entomologist. Was there did you 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.959 have to do a certain amount of a certain training 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.359 in order to be eligible to take that board examination? 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.160 And if so, where did you do that training? 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.120 Yeah? Well, I mean all of that. So there's a 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:19.600 there's a written exam, now a practical exam, and then 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.440 you your cases are reviewed, so your case work that 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.880 you have done. Fortunately for me, back then I was 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.840 board certified forends against coologist number nine. That were not 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.480 many even without a board CERTI occasion and you could 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.840 still get casework, you know, because people law enforcement agencies 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.760 just needed to help. So it's it's a multiple pronged 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:49.120 approach where colleagues peer review your cases to make sure 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.360 that your analysis and your conclusions are correct. There is 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.520 a Renten exam which is technical nature, and there's a 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:59.480 practical exam which includes insect identification and doing some post 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.760 more emit estimations and report writing on that. 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:08.240 Can you explain to us when you walk into work? 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.040 I guess there's all different types of things forensic entomologists 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.240 can do. But you know, when I'm a PA, I 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.040 go to work, and if a working in surgical pathology, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.360 the specimens come down and I dissect them and describe 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.920 them and cut them up, look for what caused the disease? 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.280 What when you go to work? What what do you do? 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.559 What's what's the environment you look like? Is it a lab? 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.600 Do you have cases that are just sitting on your desk? 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.240 Are you working on cases for multiple months? How does 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:38.600 that go? 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.280 Yeah? So for the entomology thing, I mean every day 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.920 for me, I wear a slightly different hat. But for 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.400 the entomology, law enforcement may drive a case up or 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.960 they may collact and send it in. So we received 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.319 the case, we go through what we log it into 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:02.080 our laboratory management system which helps us tract evident Then 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.679 I kind of triage the case. I open everything up 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.079 and look at it. Some of the collected insects will 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.160 be alive, you know, so they need care. So we 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.960 may have to set them up in environmental chambers or cages, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.360 give them some feet water. Well, they may be preserved. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.520 And even if they are preserved, they may not be 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.719 preserved properly. These insects can still decompose and a preservative 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.800 if they're not fixed first. So I make sure that 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.839 everything is properly preserved, that the live insects are taking 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.880 care of, and if there are live insects, we just 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.360 sit and wait wait for those insects to complete the 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:43.440 live cycles. We document when the insects change their life stages, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:48.320 we document when the adults emerge, and then the insects 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.960 have to be identified. So we have to identify them 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.959 to species if possible, if not to possible, at least 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.640 to the genus. So I will try to do a 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:03.200 live microscopy identific just using morphology, and you know, if 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.040 that does not work, then I have a genetics lab, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.880 so I hand it over to the geneticists to be 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.400 able to do some genetic identification of the species. That 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.400 usually gets it down to species for me. And once 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.680 I know the species then I can gather the weather information. 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.240 You have to go back, you know, weeks or months 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.640 to determine what the temperature may have been at the 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.360 scene at the time, and then compare with laboratory data, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.520 whether it's my own data that I generated or other 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.160 scientists data, and then that comes up with an estimate 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.600 of you know, how old those insects are. And then 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.840 once you know that bit of information, and that would 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.560 be the you know, approximate time of colonization. We call 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.560 it when the eggs or larvae or deposited on the body. 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.480 And then once I have all that information, I run 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.760 it up in a report and then send it off 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.200 to law enforcement and they just incorporate that is the 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.680 supplementary information in their investigations. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.880 It's so cool. Are there ever times that you get 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.680 to that they call you to go on crime scenes? 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.680 Yes, you know, it's difficult due to my schedule and 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.680 and it's budget right, I mean, they can't have people 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.920 sitting around at the crime team just waiting on, you know, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.320 me to show up. So I spent a lot of 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.360 my time training crime scene investigators how to make collections, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.560 you know, if they're properly equipped and properly trained, they 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.480 can make it certainly a reasonable collection at the scene. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.920 You know, it's procedural at that point, and then they 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.000 sent it to me, and then you know, the expertise 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.720 that I have is getting the identifications made in the 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.920 determining aide. But I do. I mean, the longest time 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.560 I've had a law enforcement agency hold a scene essentially 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.000 was three days. Just took me that long to get 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.160 there because it was out of the country. But they 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.120 were pretty insistent that you know, I get there and 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.560 I do the collections because it was a large case 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.160 for them. But yeah, I mean, if I can get there, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.960 then I will. If not, hopefully they've been in one 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.400 of my classes before, and to make the collect actions 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.480 and just drive it up to the lab, which probably 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.520 happens more frequently than anything else. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.320 That must be fun for you to go to different 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.560 countries and see insects that you don't typically see every 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.960 day in this country. Is that pretty exciting for you? 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:14.880 Yeah? 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:15.320 It is. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.920 You see different species, but you also have to be 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.120 somewhat cautious because there may not be as much developmental 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.840 information on some of these species as we would expect, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.440 and just because it is a species that I may 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.480 be familiar with. We may have the species here, they 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.760 may have it somewhere else. Does not mean that there's 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.680 not some genetic drift on which has resulted in some 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.800 different developmental times and different behavior. So just because it's 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.680 the same species doesn't mean that it's doing the same thing. 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.120 I know that some insects can cause some serious pathology 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.920 if you get bit by one. Have you ever worked 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.840 with a species that you would consider to be dangerous? 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.920 Well, I mean, you know, we get being in the 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:02.240 College of Medicine, of course, you know, we get asked 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.440 to sometimes help out with some hospital cases. So we 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.000 have a number of cases where you know, people have 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.840 gone into shot being bitten stung by insects, and there's 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.600 a chance to try to identify the insects pieces that 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.080 is responsible for the death. You know, so through the 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.000 hospital system, that's not too terribly uncommon. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.320 That's really interesting. Do you have a specific species that 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.879 you could think of that people I mean, obviously in 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.119 Florida there's going to be more insects that are common 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.280 to bite people and cause serious injuries. But do you 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:36.719 have an example of one. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.280 Oh, well, for us, you know, the the well, there's 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.400 always the threat of the Africanized be being out there. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.080 But I mean for us, one of the common things 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:51.440 that are the yellow jacket nests. You know, they nest 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.119 underground and can make very large caverns, and not unusual 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.560 for someone to actually fall in and nest. I guess 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.480 it's been quite common for you know, farmers, land clearers, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.960 people operating you know, tractors and bush hogs to you know, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.840 the way of the tractor collapses in a nest, and 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:13.639 then due to the depth of the nest, you know, 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.800 that the tractor becomes stuck. Uh, and then the you know, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.800 tractor or equipment operator becomes overwhelmed with all of the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.800 stinging insects. And even though you may not have a 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:31.679 particularly particular sensitivity, you can't survive that many insects things 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:33.520 when you get them. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.240 You said that sometimes when you get them to the 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.639 lab they're alive or they're special precautions you need to 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.200 take when you're handling those. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.280 No, not really the insects that we deal with for 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.800 the most part at forensics are you know, non biting insects. 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.480 Most of the adult flies have spongy mouth parts and 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:59.119 you know, not not typically a threat and not usually invasive, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.399 although we we did have a case recently of an 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.120 innforted species that isn't supposed to be here. The primary 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.800 screwware So you do have some instances where you may 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.679 have to take some additional steps for biological control because 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:19.320 we get cases in from numerous locations and the people 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.399 collecting them, of course aren't expert entomologists. They don't know 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.800 what they are, so they may accidentally send in some 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.840 species that may be a biological control problem. Yeah, so 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.480 we just have to make sure that our lab is 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.399 you know, a BL two certified, and make sure that 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.400 you can contain the insects that come in. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.640 My only experience with insects really working in pathology has 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.800 been getting maggots that are on legs with Gangreen and 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.920 when I was at the Medical Examiner's office doing autopsies 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.720 with lots of maggots, lots and lots, and I always, 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.080 I mean, this is just my thing, I guess. But 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.240 after I go home, even though I know that I'm 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.080 clean and it's all done, I just have this crazy 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.480 creepy crawley feeling in my skin and I have to 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.200 take a shower right away. I just have this fear 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.800 that one jumped on me somehow or got in my hair. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.160 Do you I guess you never have that feeling happen 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.760 to you work working in this field. But have you 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.320 ever had anything like that happen that you're scared you 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:21.800 brought home something from work? 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.200 Oh? Well, yeah, actually yeah, we do a lot of 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.040 civil cases as well. It's not all criminal, so cases 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.520 of bedbugs. You know, being in a hotel, you have 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.600 to go to the property and inspect, so you know, 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:40.520 you're always worry about And did I bring some bed 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.399 bugs home with me? Crime scenes are not always clean. 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.919 Some of them have massive roads infestations, and you know, 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.480 he may be in tie back, but you still have 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.960 roaches crawling all over your tie back and all over 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.680 you know, the equipment that's seeing. So now, roaches still 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:58.960 give me the ev GBI's Magats and flies don't bother 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:03.960 me too much, But don't like roaches. Not a big fan. Yeah. 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:05.960 I used to work at a hospital in the city 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.520 of Philadelphia and we had such a bad roach problem, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.359 and especially the more is in the basement and they 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.800 used to come up out of the dream but they 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.480 would be in the light fixtures, you know, like the 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.640 fluorescent lights you would see in the hospital, and they 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.719 just were all over the place all the time. And 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.960 one of the secretaries was working in an office on 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.600 the second floor and one fell from the ceiling out 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.560 of one of those lights onto her jacket. It was 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.280 like this huge, this huge scene. They're just I don't 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.960 know what it is about them, They're so gross, but living. 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.720 I live in New Jersey, which is twenty minutes away 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.800 from Philadelphia in the burbs, and I never saw a 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.000 bug like that until I started working in the city. 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.000 And I can't imagine just like having one of those 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.320 things in my house. It would freak me out so bad. 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.000 All right, So let's get on too. You're an educator. 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.120 You're a professor and associate director of the William R. 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.040 Bapel Center or Forensic Medicine at the University of Florida's 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.960 College of Medicine. So I have a couple questions about 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.399 that because I used to work with pathology residents, and 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.800 when they decided that they wanted to go into forensics, 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.240 they would go get a they would do their residency 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.560 and pathology, and then they would go get a fellowship 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.359 in forensics. So most of them they either went to 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.679 the Philly Medical Examiner's office. Some of them went to 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.640 New York or Miami and they would go there for 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.120 a year or two to do a fellowship to become 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.440 eligible to take the board exam to become a board 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:42.240 certified forensic pathologist. Do you teach medical students like that 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.120 in your program or do you have programs for other 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:49.320 levels of education like crime scene texts, crime scene investigators, 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:50.040 things like that. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:53.360 Well, we're trying to cover all of that and plus so, 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.040 I mean we are in the College of Medicine, so 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.120 you know, our department of course has anatomical and clinical 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:05.160 pathologists that you know, go other places and do the residents. 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:07.119 As you're talking about, we do have residents come here. 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.280 We do go down and give lectures to Miami and 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.920 their residence. That's one of the things that we do quarterly. 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.879