1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 2 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. On this week's 3 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: External Exam, we will be speaking with doctor Jason Bird. 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 2: Doctor Bird is a professor and Associate director of the 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: William R. Maples Center for Forensic Medicine at the University 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: of Florida's College of Medicine, and he is also a 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: board certified forensic entomologist. Hi, doctor Bird, Welcome The Mother 8 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: Knows Death. 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for having me on, Thanks so much. 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: For being here. Before we get started, can you tell 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: us exactly what an entomologist is for our listeners who 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: have no idea what. 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: You do for a living well. An entomologist is a 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: scientist who studies insects, and an insect is an organism 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: with three pairs of legs, six total three body segments 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: exosculpton of course, some compound eyes, and a pair of antennae. 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: And forensic entomologists are entomologists who focus on insects of 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: forensic important particular species that are in the Carrian community. 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: And the other thing that we really specialize in is 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: taking this very complex ecology of decomposers in the environment 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: and then being able to a explain it to law 22 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: enforcement in a way that they can understand how to 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: apply it for casework, apply it to case work to 24 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: determine things such as post more minerval estimations, movement of 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: bodies after death where the body may have come from geographically, 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: and then post more to movement of remains, attempts to 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: conceal post more to handling, freezing of remains. All of 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: that will tend to change the insects on a and 29 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: then finally we have to go into a courtroom and 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: explain all of that to a trier effect be that, 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, just a judge and a judge based trial 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: or a jury, and the courtroom is not the classroom 33 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: sometimes a painful lesson. So trying to explain all of 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: that to a jury in a way that they can 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: not only believe you as a scientist, but more importantly 36 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: believe that your entomology the science can add some credibility 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: to the case and making it not overly complicated for 38 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: the jury. So if you can tie all of that together, 39 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: then forensic entomology may be for you. 40 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I have little kids, and most 41 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: kids are scared of bugs, they freak out if there's 42 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: a fly near them or a bee near them. And 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: when you were a kid, were you interested in bugs? Like, 44 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: how did you get in interested in this? 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: Well, I grew up on a very large farm, so agriculture, 46 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, certainly was very familiar to me. And being 47 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: on a farm, you're not too far away from insects, right, 48 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you have to worry about insect control. You 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: see insects all the time. So I always thought that 50 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: they were very interesting, partricularly social insects and their seemingly 51 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: ability to communicate and have you know, hundreds thousands, tens 52 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: of thousands individuals all somehow work together to accomplish some 53 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: common goal for the overall organism, which is the colony. 54 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: So you know, I was always pretty impressed with that. 55 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: And the only other thing that I really had an 56 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: interest in other than you know, the insects, is forensic science. 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure why didn't have any forensic scientists 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: in the family, just something that appealed to me. So 59 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: I was able to merge those two childhood interests into 60 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: a career in forensic entomology. 61 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: So when you were younger and you didn't have anyone 62 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: in your family that did forensics, and the internet was 63 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: not what it is now. Obviously when you were younger, 64 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: what how did you even know about it? 65 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: Well, magazine subscriptions, you know, back then there was the 66 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: Smithsonian magazine was popular National Geographic. There was a weekly 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: science magazine it was Science Digest, well that was published 68 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: of course, had some subscriptions to those. And then of 69 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: course the library. You know, go into the library public 70 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: libraries in the area and going into the science section 71 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: and just browsing books. And not a lot of people 72 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: appreciate it anymore. But you know, encyclopedia sets where I think, 73 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: so you you can look up stuff in volumes encyclopedias. 74 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: It may have been very old at that point in time, 75 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: but encyclopedia's were a wealth of information. 76 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,559 Speaker 2: So when you got older and went to high school, 77 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: did you you know exactly what you wanted to go 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: to college for? And what did you go to college for? 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 2: At first? 80 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I always maintain the interest in entomology 81 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: and forensic science, you know, as a kid, I mean 82 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: all throughout high school. So graduating high school, you know, 83 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: time to determine what to do. I really wanted to 84 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: go to college to do forensics, specifically crime scene investigation. 85 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a crime scene investigator. Didn't want 86 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: to sit in a lab, you know, didn't want to 87 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: do chemistry or toxicology, and crime scene was something which 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: different each day, you know, outside a little bit of 89 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: outside work, a little bit inside work. So that was 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: really my goal was to do crime scene And even 91 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: at the time, really to get on with the State 92 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: of Florida, with the state crime lab system, you needed 93 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: a four year to inter natural science or chemistry or 94 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: physics biology. So I really set out to just get 95 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: a four year degree so I could check that box 96 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: and then apply for some crimson jobs. 97 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 2: And so when you started college, you didn't really did 98 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: you really know that there was a specialty for forensics 99 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: that you can combine forensics and your love of insects. 100 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: So, yes, I had the idea. I went. There were 101 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: several colleges that I was looking at, you all, in Florida, 102 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: I was, I'm a Florida native, and uh, the University 103 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: of Florida was the land Grant college and you know, 104 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: had the largest agricultural programs and a very large department 105 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: entomology as well. So I figured, well, if I'm going 106 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: to go to college. It's either going to be biology, 107 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, or something in one of the ad colleges. 108 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: And UF has, you know, the entomology department. So I 109 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: set up in a point it and went in to 110 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: talk to the undergraduate coordinator and of course, you know, 111 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: they have to go through the routine checklist and well, 112 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: why do you want this degree? And I said, well, 113 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, I would like this degree because it essentially 114 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: puts the you know, four year degree checkbox on applications, 115 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: and I can do forensic science work. And the graduate 116 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: coordinator said, well, and had you ever been interested in 117 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: forensic entomology? I said, well, yo about you know, there 118 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: are no programs in Florida in it at that time, 119 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: There's only three in the United States that had programs 120 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: that you know, I knew about that were accepting students. 121 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: And turns out that the day that I was in 122 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: their office, the local newspaper I had a front page 123 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: article on the university's medical inventory entomologist. And it wasn't 124 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: focusing on his medical inventary work. It was focusing on 125 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: his work as a forensic entomologist. So they slid the 126 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: paper over I. It was front page. I read the 127 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: headlines and read the first couple paragraphs, and I said, yeah, 128 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: that sounds like something that would certainly fit my bill. 129 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: And they said, well, would you like to go talk 130 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: to him? He's in his office. Said sure, so his 131 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: office was really across the hall, went in, talked to 132 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: him about my interest in forensic entomology. And then by 133 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: the time I left that day, I had a job 134 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: in his lab. I worked hourly as a student employee 135 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: and completed my undergraduate degree with him in the lab. 136 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: So everything came together because of a newspaper article that 137 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: just happened to be the day I was in the 138 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: undergraduate coordinator's office. 139 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's such fate, right, So what a 140 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: cool story. 141 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: So I still have the paper. 142 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: Oh dare you that's really cool? Yeah you should. I mean, 143 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: that's like what you got, what started your story. I 144 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: love hearing things like this because a similar thing happened 145 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 2: to me too. How just the whole thing kind of 146 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: started falling in my lap day to day, just based 147 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: upon all these people I were meeting at school and stuff. 148 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: And of course there was no Internet at the time 149 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 2: to be able to even know that some of these 150 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: things were even a possibility. So it's really cool that 151 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: that's how you got your start. So's it's also cool 152 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: to tell people that you originally started school just to 153 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: get a bachelor's degree, because the same thing happened with me. 154 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: I just first, I didn't even think I would be 155 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: a college person, and then I forced myself, Okay, I'll 156 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: just get an associate's degree, and then I kept going 157 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: and going. I never expected that I would in a 158 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: million years go to grad school. So you're a doctor, Now, 159 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: what do you have an MD PhD. What did you 160 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: go to school after your four year degree? 161 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? So I completed a bachelor's degree four year degree 162 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: in entomology and the medical inventory entomologist. I had some 163 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: very large grants on insect a tractancy and developing repellents 164 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: for industry. And with that grant, you know, he was 165 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: able to provide me with employment and then which gave 166 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: me access to the lab so I could do my 167 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: own research. So I finished my masters in the same 168 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: lab in entomology, got an undergrad uh a graduate minor 169 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: in criminology and law. At the time, I was the 170 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: first person in u's history to crossover between entomology and 171 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: criminology and law. Uh, and I completed that master's degree. 172 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: And during my master's degree, I wrote a grand proposal 173 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: for funding a PhD in forensic entomology, and then that 174 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: grant was awarded. So then I shifted my focus from 175 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: my work from medical entomology and insect repellants and attractments 176 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: over to just purely forensic science. 177 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: I love that. So you have such a great story. 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: I love this. So after you finished your PhD, you 179 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: became a board certified forensic entomologist. Was there did you 180 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 2: have to do a certain amount of a certain training 181 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,359 Speaker 2: in order to be eligible to take that board examination? 182 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: And if so, where did you do that training? 183 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I mean all of that. So there's a 184 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: there's a written exam, now a practical exam, and then 185 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: you your cases are reviewed, so your case work that 186 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: you have done. Fortunately for me, back then I was 187 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: board certified forends against coologist number nine. That were not 188 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: many even without a board CERTI occasion and you could 189 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: still get casework, you know, because people law enforcement agencies 190 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: just needed to help. So it's it's a multiple pronged 191 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: approach where colleagues peer review your cases to make sure 192 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: that your analysis and your conclusions are correct. There is 193 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: a Renten exam which is technical nature, and there's a 194 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: practical exam which includes insect identification and doing some post 195 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: more emit estimations and report writing on that. 196 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: Can you explain to us when you walk into work? 197 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: I guess there's all different types of things forensic entomologists 198 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: can do. But you know, when I'm a PA, I 199 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: go to work, and if a working in surgical pathology, 200 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: the specimens come down and I dissect them and describe 201 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: them and cut them up, look for what caused the disease? 202 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: What when you go to work? What what do you do? 203 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 2: What's what's the environment you look like? Is it a lab? 204 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: Do you have cases that are just sitting on your desk? 205 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: Are you working on cases for multiple months? How does 206 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: that go? 207 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? So for the entomology thing, I mean every day 208 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: for me, I wear a slightly different hat. But for 209 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: the entomology, law enforcement may drive a case up or 210 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: they may collact and send it in. So we received 211 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: the case, we go through what we log it into 212 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: our laboratory management system which helps us tract evident Then 213 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: I kind of triage the case. I open everything up 214 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: and look at it. Some of the collected insects will 215 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: be alive, you know, so they need care. So we 216 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: may have to set them up in environmental chambers or cages, 217 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: give them some feet water. Well, they may be preserved. 218 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: And even if they are preserved, they may not be 219 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: preserved properly. These insects can still decompose and a preservative 220 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: if they're not fixed first. So I make sure that 221 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: everything is properly preserved, that the live insects are taking 222 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: care of, and if there are live insects, we just 223 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: sit and wait wait for those insects to complete the 224 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: live cycles. We document when the insects change their life stages, 225 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: we document when the adults emerge, and then the insects 226 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: have to be identified. So we have to identify them 227 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: to species if possible, if not to possible, at least 228 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: to the genus. So I will try to do a 229 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: live microscopy identific just using morphology, and you know, if 230 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: that does not work, then I have a genetics lab, 231 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: so I hand it over to the geneticists to be 232 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: able to do some genetic identification of the species. That 233 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: usually gets it down to species for me. And once 234 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: I know the species then I can gather the weather information. 235 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: You have to go back, you know, weeks or months 236 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: to determine what the temperature may have been at the 237 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: scene at the time, and then compare with laboratory data, 238 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: whether it's my own data that I generated or other 239 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: scientists data, and then that comes up with an estimate 240 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: of you know, how old those insects are. And then 241 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: once you know that bit of information, and that would 242 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: be the you know, approximate time of colonization. We call 243 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: it when the eggs or larvae or deposited on the body. 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: And then once I have all that information, I run 245 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: it up in a report and then send it off 246 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: to law enforcement and they just incorporate that is the 247 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: supplementary information in their investigations. 248 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: It's so cool. Are there ever times that you get 249 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: to that they call you to go on crime scenes? 250 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: Yes, you know, it's difficult due to my schedule and 251 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: and it's budget right, I mean, they can't have people 252 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: sitting around at the crime team just waiting on, you know, 253 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: me to show up. So I spent a lot of 254 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: my time training crime scene investigators how to make collections, 255 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, if they're properly equipped and properly trained, they 256 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: can make it certainly a reasonable collection at the scene. 257 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's procedural at that point, and then they 258 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: sent it to me, and then you know, the expertise 259 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: that I have is getting the identifications made in the 260 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: determining aide. But I do. I mean, the longest time 261 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: I've had a law enforcement agency hold a scene essentially 262 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: was three days. Just took me that long to get 263 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: there because it was out of the country. But they 264 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: were pretty insistent that you know, I get there and 265 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: I do the collections because it was a large case 266 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: for them. But yeah, I mean, if I can get there, 267 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: then I will. If not, hopefully they've been in one 268 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: of my classes before, and to make the collect actions 269 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: and just drive it up to the lab, which probably 270 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: happens more frequently than anything else. 271 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: That must be fun for you to go to different 272 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: countries and see insects that you don't typically see every 273 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: day in this country. Is that pretty exciting for you? 274 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? 275 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: It is. 276 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: You see different species, but you also have to be 277 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: somewhat cautious because there may not be as much developmental 278 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: information on some of these species as we would expect, 279 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: and just because it is a species that I may 280 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: be familiar with. We may have the species here, they 281 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: may have it somewhere else. Does not mean that there's 282 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: not some genetic drift on which has resulted in some 283 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: different developmental times and different behavior. So just because it's 284 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: the same species doesn't mean that it's doing the same thing. 285 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: I know that some insects can cause some serious pathology 286 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: if you get bit by one. Have you ever worked 287 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: with a species that you would consider to be dangerous? 288 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you know, we get being in the 289 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: College of Medicine, of course, you know, we get asked 290 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: to sometimes help out with some hospital cases. So we 291 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: have a number of cases where you know, people have 292 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: gone into shot being bitten stung by insects, and there's 293 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: a chance to try to identify the insects pieces that 294 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: is responsible for the death. You know, so through the 295 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: hospital system, that's not too terribly uncommon. 296 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. Do you have a specific species that 297 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: you could think of that people I mean, obviously in 298 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: Florida there's going to be more insects that are common 299 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: to bite people and cause serious injuries. But do you 300 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 2: have an example of one. 301 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: Oh, well, for us, you know, the the well, there's 302 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: always the threat of the Africanized be being out there. 303 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: But I mean for us, one of the common things 304 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: that are the yellow jacket nests. You know, they nest 305 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: underground and can make very large caverns, and not unusual 306 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: for someone to actually fall in and nest. I guess 307 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: it's been quite common for you know, farmers, land clearers, 308 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: people operating you know, tractors and bush hogs to you know, 309 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: the way of the tractor collapses in a nest, and 310 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: then due to the depth of the nest, you know, 311 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: that the tractor becomes stuck. Uh, and then the you know, 312 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: tractor or equipment operator becomes overwhelmed with all of the 313 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: stinging insects. And even though you may not have a 314 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: particularly particular sensitivity, you can't survive that many insects things 315 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: when you get them. 316 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: You said that sometimes when you get them to the 317 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: lab they're alive or they're special precautions you need to 318 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: take when you're handling those. 319 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: No, not really the insects that we deal with for 320 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the most part at forensics are you know, non biting insects. 321 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: Most of the adult flies have spongy mouth parts and 322 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: you know, not not typically a threat and not usually invasive, 323 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: although we we did have a case recently of an 324 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: innforted species that isn't supposed to be here. The primary 325 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: screwware So you do have some instances where you may 326 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: have to take some additional steps for biological control because 327 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: we get cases in from numerous locations and the people 328 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: collecting them, of course aren't expert entomologists. They don't know 329 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: what they are, so they may accidentally send in some 330 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: species that may be a biological control problem. Yeah, so 331 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: we just have to make sure that our lab is 332 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: you know, a BL two certified, and make sure that 333 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: you can contain the insects that come in. 334 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: My only experience with insects really working in pathology has 335 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: been getting maggots that are on legs with Gangreen and 336 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: when I was at the Medical Examiner's office doing autopsies 337 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: with lots of maggots, lots and lots, and I always, 338 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: I mean, this is just my thing, I guess. But 339 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: after I go home, even though I know that I'm 340 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: clean and it's all done, I just have this crazy 341 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: creepy crawley feeling in my skin and I have to 342 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: take a shower right away. I just have this fear 343 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: that one jumped on me somehow or got in my hair. 344 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: Do you I guess you never have that feeling happen 345 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: to you work working in this field. But have you 346 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: ever had anything like that happen that you're scared you 347 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: brought home something from work? 348 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: Oh? Well, yeah, actually yeah, we do a lot of 349 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: civil cases as well. It's not all criminal, so cases 350 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: of bedbugs. You know, being in a hotel, you have 351 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: to go to the property and inspect, so you know, 352 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: you're always worry about And did I bring some bed 353 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: bugs home with me? Crime scenes are not always clean. 354 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: Some of them have massive roads infestations, and you know, 355 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: he may be in tie back, but you still have 356 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: roaches crawling all over your tie back and all over 357 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, the equipment that's seeing. So now, roaches still 358 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: give me the ev GBI's Magats and flies don't bother 359 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: me too much, But don't like roaches. Not a big fan. Yeah. 360 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: I used to work at a hospital in the city 361 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: of Philadelphia and we had such a bad roach problem, 362 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: and especially the more is in the basement and they 363 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: used to come up out of the dream but they 364 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: would be in the light fixtures, you know, like the 365 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 2: fluorescent lights you would see in the hospital, and they 366 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 2: just were all over the place all the time. And 367 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: one of the secretaries was working in an office on 368 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: the second floor and one fell from the ceiling out 369 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: of one of those lights onto her jacket. It was 370 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: like this huge, this huge scene. They're just I don't 371 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: know what it is about them, They're so gross, but living. 372 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: I live in New Jersey, which is twenty minutes away 373 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: from Philadelphia in the burbs, and I never saw a 374 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: bug like that until I started working in the city. 375 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: And I can't imagine just like having one of those 376 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: things in my house. It would freak me out so bad. 377 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: All right, So let's get on too. You're an educator. 378 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 2: You're a professor and associate director of the William R. 379 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: Bapel Center or Forensic Medicine at the University of Florida's 380 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: College of Medicine. So I have a couple questions about 381 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 2: that because I used to work with pathology residents, and 382 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: when they decided that they wanted to go into forensics, 383 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: they would go get a they would do their residency 384 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: and pathology, and then they would go get a fellowship 385 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: in forensics. So most of them they either went to 386 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 2: the Philly Medical Examiner's office. Some of them went to 387 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 2: New York or Miami and they would go there for 388 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 2: a year or two to do a fellowship to become 389 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: eligible to take the board exam to become a board 390 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: certified forensic pathologist. Do you teach medical students like that 391 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 2: in your program or do you have programs for other 392 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: levels of education like crime scene texts, crime scene investigators, 393 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: things like that. 394 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: Well, we're trying to cover all of that and plus so, 395 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean we are in the College of Medicine, so 396 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, our department of course has anatomical and clinical 397 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: pathologists that you know, go other places and do the residents. 398 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: As you're talking about, we do have residents come here. 399 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: We do go down and give lectures to Miami and 400 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: their residence. That's one of the things that we do quarterly. 401 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: I've been doing that for a number of years. But 402 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, in our veterinary program, we also have veterinary 403 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: pathologists that we teach. We're starting a residency program for 404 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: those as well for the animals. But you know, we 405 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: also teach non non MD bound people. So we specialize 406 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: in training medical legal death investigators in crime scene techniques, 407 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: and some are certain aspects of forensic medicine and forensic mythology, 408 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: so we focus on those who want to be medical 409 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: legal death investigators as well. And uh, you know a 410 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: lot of our students are interested in forensics as an undergraduate, 411 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: and because it's you know, essentially a STEM approved curriculum, 412 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: they go to many places. You know, you have them 413 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: go to ved school on the med school of course, 414 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: it's the normal thing. He'll go on to psychiatry law program. 415 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: So our students really go everywhere once they finish their masters, 416 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: if they don't go straight into employment. 417 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 2: You're also you have the most impressive resume I ever saw. 418 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: By the way, after I read all the things that 419 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: you do, I'm like, well, I'm such a loser anything. 420 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 2: But you're also you're involved with the educational program. You're 421 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: the actual administrator for the University of Florida's Vet Science 422 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: forensic program. And I got to thinking about that a 423 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 2: lot recently in the past month because in one I 424 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 2: found the case of a dog that was shot to 425 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 2: death along with his owner and how they used the 426 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: animal in order to collect bullets from him and do 427 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: a forensic analysis. And that really got me thinking because 428 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 2: I never really I've never really thought about that that 429 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: an animal would get a forensic autopsy two and I 430 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: started looking into it, and last week I actually interviewed 431 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: a veterinarian pathologist who also does forensics as well. She 432 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 2: does both medical and forensic or necruptcies on these animals. 433 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: Is that what you teach them how to collect evidence 434 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 2: and how to perform a necropsy on these animals, because 435 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: I'm sure it's done a little bit differently than you 436 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: would do for to look for a tumor or something 437 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: like that. 438 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: Well, I mean the process is very much the same. 439 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean it's for a legal case, right, You're going 440 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: to go to court, so you want to make sure 441 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: that you're not just doing a medical exam, you're doing 442 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: a forensic documentation. So yeah, we have our boarded veterinary pathologist. 443 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: We'll do the ney cropsies. You know, the problem with 444 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: the veterinary forensics in general is you never know what 445 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: species is going to happen. Right, So with our forensic 446 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: medicine program that focuses on people in your training meta 447 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: legal death investigators, they're going to be doing human crime 448 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: and our vet and wildlife program, it could be companion animals, 449 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: farm animals, any wildlife species. We have a huge program 450 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: with marine mammals now and trauma that it is being 451 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: afflicted to marine mammals and trying to figure out, you know, 452 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: who is actually doing them, what types of weapons are 453 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: they using. So, yeah, it becomes a very different application 454 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with animals, but that forensic exam and 455 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: the level of documentation that you want to perform is 456 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: much the same whether it be an animal or a human. 457 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was something that I was talking to her 458 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: about how really knowledgeable a vet has to be because 459 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: with humans, you're just dealing with one species. Well, I 460 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: guess it's the same with your job too, and when 461 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 2: you're working with animals or insects, you just have to 462 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: know so many more things about anatomy and the different 463 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: diseases they can and everything. It's it's just it's all 464 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: just very interesting to me. There was a show, oh 465 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 2: go ahead. 466 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: No, I mean the harsh reality of that is is, 467 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, you may not know as much about one species, 468 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: you know, like we as entomologists may not have as 469 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: much developmental information about a particular fly species, so it 470 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: may not be able to provide the level of detail 471 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: in one case that we had did on a you know, 472 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: we had performed by another case. So the same thing 473 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: in the vetinary forensic world. You just may not have 474 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: a data on the animal to give. 475 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: Law enforcement what want when you take these samples from animals. 476 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: I know what happens with humans that they go for 477 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: trace evidence and they go for toxicology and just the 478 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: medical examiner look at the microscopy. What would you send 479 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: those specimens to the same labs or are there specific 480 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 2: vet specific forensic labs. 481 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, we send them to different laboratories, so the histology 482 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: to different labs, the toxicology will go to a different lab. 483 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, your laboratory support for the most part, between 484 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: humans and animals is somewhat divided. Like our pathologist doesn't 485 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: send the histo in toxicology out to the same labs 486 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: that you know, our medical examiner's office does here in town. 487 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: It's a very different support system. 488 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: So you are also an administrator of the Wildlife Forensic 489 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: Science Laboratory for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservatory Commission. 490 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: And it made me think about this episode I saw 491 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: years ago on this show called Autopsy, which was one 492 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: of it was on HBO. It was one of the 493 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: original forensic shows with Doctor Boden, and I thought this 494 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: was a really cool case. It was about this famous 495 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: elk that lived in Yellowstone National Park named Charger, and 496 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: in the episode they were saying that someone came and 497 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: a poacher killed and killed the elk, and throughout the 498 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: investigtion gation on this episode they were showing it was 499 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: really cool. I mean, it was a sad story, but 500 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: it was cool how they were able to figure out 501 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 2: who killed this elk and catch them and here it 502 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: was there was an award given. I believe to the 503 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: taxidermist that the person brought this elk to is that 504 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: something working for a commission like this? Are these Are 505 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: they the kind of cases that you guys work on? 506 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, so our 507 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: Wildlife lab is somewhat split. We have a Wildlife Forensic 508 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: Laboratory who will take in cases from anywhere, and in 509 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: addition to that, we have the Wildlife Lab that supports 510 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, and that lab supports 511 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,479 Speaker 1: approximately eight hundred law enforcement officers around the state of Florida, 512 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: and we will help them with a forensic analysis on 513 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: any case they have. Sometimes it is identification of the 514 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: animal species, you know, if they have and to see 515 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: some you know, meat that has been field dressed or processed, 516 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: the sex of that species, you know, whether it's a 517 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: male or female, determined, whether it's taken out of season 518 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: or not. So it's usually species determination and sex determination. 519 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: A lot of time with illegal take, it may be 520 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: a size determination of the animal. A lot of that 521 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: may be a photograph. You know, people like to post 522 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: everything on social media, so even if you're doing a crime, 523 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: then they take a picture of the animal that they 524 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: have poached and put it on social media. Typically with fish, 525 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: everybody likes to hold up the trophy fish right for 526 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: the for the picture. So a lot of it may 527 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: be doing some photogrammetry to determine what size that fish 528 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: may be because there may be limits on size. It 529 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: may be too small, may be too big. So a 530 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: lot of it is just illegal take analysis and trying 531 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: to decide whether that is applicable with the law or not. 532 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: And that's where that stops. And you know, other efforts 533 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: like our vet forensic scientists do and the other part 534 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: of our wildlife forensic lab where gets into maybe mistreatment 535 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: of animals and animal cruelty and how long do the 536 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: animals suffer and all that, you know, starvation cases. You know, 537 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: those are all have to be split out at a 538 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: laboratory because we have different different experts to be able 539 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: to handle the different cases depending on what you're trying 540 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: to prove or what species you're dealing with with wildlife. 541 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I never really thought of how much more 542 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: complex that all gets with social media and things like that, 543 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: because how do you even stay on top of that 544 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: or there has to be a whole entire unit dedicated 545 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 2: to just taking care of that type of stuff. 546 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. They have an entire Internet crimes unit 547 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: and the investigators, so we just provide them support as needed. 548 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, they're doing traditional law enforcement investigations and we're 549 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: just a small part of that overall investigation for the agency. 550 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by my book, Nicole 551 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,239 Speaker 2: and Jemmy's Anatomy. Do you have my book yet? If not, 552 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: you better get it because it's really awesome. It is 553 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: an A through Z journey of the human body and 554 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: everything that could go wrong with it. Get it now 555 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: at thedorramodern dot com slash book. Now we're going to 556 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: talk about something else that you do on your list 557 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: of millions things that you do. This is really cool. 558 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: So you serve as a medico legal death investigator with 559 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: the National Disaster Medical System Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team 560 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: or d MORE Region for and serve as a commander 561 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: for the Florida Emergency Mortuary Operations Response System. That's a mouthful. 562 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 2: Can you Can you explain to us what these organizations 563 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: do and give us an example of any kind of 564 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: deployments that you've been on. 565 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: Sure, So, the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response System is the 566 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: federal Mass Fatality Teams. Essentially, they are all organized under 567 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: the National Disaster Medical System and historically there's been ten 568 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: regional teams and those teams can be deployed anywhere where 569 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: the United States government needs mass fatality assistants and femores. 570 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: Which is the Florida Emercy Operations Response System is Florida's 571 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: state Mass Fatality team of which I'm the director and commander. 572 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: The two are not related. One of the state team 573 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: and one is the federal team. On the federal team, 574 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: I have been lucky enough to serve as a medical 575 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: legal death investigator for many years. And you know that 576 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: team that's deployed to Hurricane Katrina, the Haiti earthquake, and 577 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: they send assessment teams out all the time. They responded 578 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: to the wildfires in Hawaii, and then the assessment teams 579 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: determined whether a you know, a full response is needed, 580 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: and if a full response is it needed, and then 581 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: exactly what experts may be needed or what equipment may 582 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: be needed. But that is all operated essentially with the 583 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: Department of Health and Human Services, with our federal government. 584 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: It's it. 585 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: My husband is part of the New Jersey Task Force one. 586 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: It sounds like it's a similar type of thing. He 587 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 2: gets deployed on things. He's been to a couple of 588 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: the hurricanes in Florida actually, and of course he was 589 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: there a couple of years ago. He was deployed to 590 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: the surf Side condo collapse for a couple of weeks. 591 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 2: And when he got home, obviously I had a million 592 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: questions for him because he was there retrieving bodies unfortunately, 593 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 2: and I had so many questions like what did you 594 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: do next? Like who was there taking care of it? 595 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: And he's just like Cale, I don't know there was 596 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: a refrigerator there. We brought the body. It's the end 597 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 2: of it for me. So is that thing that that 598 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: one of those teams that you work for would do 599 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 2: in a case like that, where there's going to be 600 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: multiple people that didn't survive an accident, you would actually 601 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 2: set up kind of a morgue on site. 602 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: It depends. We did the surf side collapse. We assisted 603 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: the Medical Sailor's Office in Miami DAPD. So these teams 604 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: do a number of things. They may help with the 605 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: family assistance aspect of it, which we typically call. You know, 606 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: our microcosm is the victim Information center. We need to 607 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: collect any order data right now. You need a missing 608 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: person's list essentially, and then from that list you start 609 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: vetting it down to who the potential victims may be. 610 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: And then you have to do interviews. Right you know 611 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: who's missing, you know what what if their hair color, 612 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: eye color, natural nails, artificial nails, you know, the whole 613 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: thing that makes that person a person, surgical scars, so 614 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: on and so forth. Get a DNA sample, maybe that 615 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: DNA samples from siblings or a biological parent, and that 616 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: builds up your anti mortem database, and then your post 617 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: mortem database are the identifiers that come in from the 618 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: forensic examination of the remains. We may be able to 619 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: do that in an existing medical examiner's office, which is 620 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: what happened with the surf side collapse. You know, the 621 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: medical Examiner's office in Miami has a tremendous capacity. That 622 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: office wasn't impacted at all, so they're still able to 623 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: use their facility. We just provided people and you know, 624 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: additional expertise. But for like Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Michael 625 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: and Hurricane Ian, where the medical examiner's offices themselves are impacted, 626 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: we have the ability to bring in basically a mobile 627 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: more that has all the cooling capacity, all of the 628 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: forensic stations, all the equipment. We basically set up a 629 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: portable medical examiner's office for the duration of the response 630 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: until that medical examiner's office gets back to capacity and 631 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: is operational. So both the National Disaster Medical Site Stone 632 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: has that capability and Florida has that capability. Our equipment 633 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: is very similar. The equipment often comes from the same vendors. 634 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: It is packed the same, it's often numbered the same, 635 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: and we do that on purpose because if we need 636 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: the federal teams is backup. We don't want to have 637 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: to train those individuals on our system. We want our 638 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: system to be very familiar to them so they can 639 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: come in have all those zero just in time training, 640 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: they walk in that environment and they should feel very 641 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: at home because everything looks the same to them. The 642 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: equipment's in the same spot, and they can literally come 643 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: in and just start to work. And that was very 644 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: important to Florida's disaster preparedness. We are a team of 645 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: about two hundred and fifty people and you know at 646 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: times the DMOORT teams are around twelve hundred, so they 647 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: have much more reserve capacity than we do. So trying 648 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: to interface those two systems is seamlessly impossible was very 649 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: important to us. 650 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I never really thought that you would have 651 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: to talk to family members and god get that kind 652 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: of information for them. Is that hard for you to 653 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: have to have those conversations with people? 654 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: It is very difficult. You know, they're in their maximum 655 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: time of grief. So we have a special team who 656 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: trains on being able to do these interviews and that's 657 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: really all they do. And then we make sure that 658 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: the people who are conducting the family interviews and being 659 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: with the families and the relatives and friends are really 660 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: never in the morgue capacity. We make sure that those 661 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: two worlds are separate. So we have a distinct victim 662 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: information team that handles all the anti mortem stuff and 663 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: then a forensic science team that handles all of the 664 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: post mortem, and then we have essentially a disaster site 665 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: recovery team who was there at surfside as well. We 666 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: are not technically trained to get on rebel piles, so 667 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: that is where a lot of these others, very specialized 668 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: teams come in to be able to assist with that. 669 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: But once they come off the rebel pile and you know, 670 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: they were in a safe environment, and then we take over. 671 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: And then our specialty is conducting the forensic identifications to 672 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: help that medical examiner of jurisdiction or corner of jurisdiction 673 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: the thing on my state you're in, you know, made 674 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: that confirmatory identification. 675 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 2: Well, we're I'm going to crime con which we will 676 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: talk about you going there as well. My husband's going 677 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: with me, so I'm sure he's going to want to 678 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: talk to you about this because it was it was 679 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 2: a lot for him to be there that was physically 680 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: mentally it was very it was very hot. They were 681 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: doing a lot of hard work in the sun, and 682 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 2: just very emotionally taxing. It just was But he would 683 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 2: be interested in speaking with you, I'm sure because I 684 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 2: did ask him last night, do you do you buy 685 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 2: a chance to meet this guy when you were there? 686 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: But he doesn't, you know, he doesn't remember. Oh yeah, exactly. 687 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: But so let's talk about crime Con. I have your 688 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: book Forensic Entomology behind me and I'm going to bring 689 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: it with me so you could sign it when I 690 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 2: meet you in person. But so you're going to crime con. 691 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 2: What what are you going to be doing at crime Con? 692 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 2: Are you presenting a lecture? 693 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: Yeah? For for crime Con, we often will present a 694 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: lecture on a particular forensic topic or case. And then 695 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, like what we did with the last crime 696 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: Con is set up the mock crime scenes for the 697 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: teams to be able to go through. You know, we 698 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 1: try to make it a competitive environment as to who 699 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: saws the who done it aspect of that, and set 700 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: up some mystery cases. So we're our initial plan is 701 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: to really go and kind of do what we have 702 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: done before when we set up a mock crime scene 703 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: see which teams can collect the most evidence, uh and 704 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: and really get the who done it aspect of it correctly. 705 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: And then we're planning on some of our faculty at 706 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: least giving two lectures on a forensic specialization. 707 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 2: That's awesome. I can't wait to sit in on those. 708 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 2: You're you're doing so many things, are you, I mean, 709 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 2: you're doing crime clime, You're doing You're just in charge 710 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 2: of all these really great things that are helping so 711 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 2: many people every day. Are you working on any other 712 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 2: kind of projects or events that you have coming up? 713 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we do a lot of grant work 714 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: in research. It's not just me, it's the entire team 715 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: here at the University of Florida, lots of people involved 716 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: in you know, probably one of our most rewarding things 717 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: right now is trying to work with marine mammals, trying 718 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: to be able to get information on their decompositional times. 719 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: A lot of the post mortal rtffacts that marine scientists 720 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: are seeing on these animals, we're trying to determine if 721 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: they're naturally occurring because of the you know, the organism 722 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: the fish or the mammal coming into contact with something 723 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: in its environment, either before death or after death, or 724 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: rather it's something that's human induced that is causing these 725 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: what appears to be you know, obvious trauma. A lot 726 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: of them are shot pretty good, but they have penetrating 727 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: injuries and some blunt force trauma that you know, could 728 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: be ships strike, but it's so isolated on some of 729 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: them it looks like, you know, maybe they're being clobbed 730 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: with some sort of an instrument. So just trying to 731 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: give some forensic expertise and some data to the you know, 732 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: the Breen mammal community where they try to conserve, conserve 733 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: these species and and and solve what could be crimes 734 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: against federally protected species. It is very rewarding to us. 735 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: That's interesting we I think in New Jersey we kind 736 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 2: of have something like that going on because all of 737 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 2: these marine animals keep washing up. I think it seems 738 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 2: that there's a little bit more than usual, and there's 739 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 2: all this talk of did all of these wind things 740 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 2: that they just put up or is it causing I 741 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: don't know much about it, but I've been hearing this 742 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 2: back and forth of it may be causing a problem 743 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 2: for the ant and then they're trying to just investigate 744 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,720 Speaker 2: to see if it if the timing is just coincidental, 745 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 2: or if it actually is Is that something like that 746 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: you would work on as well. 747 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, you know, I mean we have single stranding 748 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: events all the time, so very important to determine, uh, 749 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, the cause. But then you have mass strandings, 750 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, so it's pathology. You know, you have to 751 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: understand what is natural before you can start to understand 752 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: the unnatural. So you know, we have to rule out 753 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: disease processes, environmental causes. Maybe you know, algae blooms. You know, 754 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: red tide happens down here in Florida, you know quite 755 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: a bit. So you know, is it environmental and in 756 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: natural or environmental and is becoming more pronounced because you 757 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: know our environment is changing or rather, you know, this 758 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: is something that's actually human induced. Pretty easy to see 759 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: if you know the stranding networks out there, if they see, 760 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: you know, a marine animal is entangled in a net 761 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: or anything like that, you know, and they monitor the animal, 762 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: they try to assist the animal, but you know, they 763 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: may find an animal with scars and is that from 764 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: a prior entanglement? Is it from encounter with another marine organism. 765 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: You know, sharks attack dolphins quite a bit and leave 766 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: some very interesting scars on these dolphins. Or you know, 767 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: is it indeed, you know, human aduced with some of 768 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: these penetrating injuries that we see. So we're trying to 769 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: figure that out and then give some reliable scientific information 770 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: to our colleagues in the marine mammal world and marine 771 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: biology and maybe they can help answer these questions for everybody. 772 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 2: Do you guys have your team, Do you have a 773 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 2: website or do you do any social media with any 774 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 2: of the subjects that you talked about today? 775 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we do. I can go to the University of 776 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: Florida homepage and search for the Maple Center So it's 777 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: Maple's Hypencenter dot ufl eu and that has all of 778 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: our classes, our training, and links to our social media pages. 779 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: You can see what we're doing. 780 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 2: That's awesome and that's great for people. I always want 781 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: to introduce people to all of these different professions because 782 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 2: they're just so cool, and I think I hear a 783 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 2: lot of younger people, some of my friends, kids that 784 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 2: are in their twenties that go to school and they're 785 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 2: just getting a degree in biology and then they graduate 786 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: and they can't do anything with it. So I want 787 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 2: them to know there's all these cool opportunities that they 788 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 2: can do with that degree, maybe with additional training. 789 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,359 Speaker 1: I think a degree in the forensic sciences is it's 790 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: an excellent path for students. Well, to me, it's interesting, 791 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: but if you're interested in anything, there's a forensic application 792 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: to it. I mean, forensic accounting, forensic meteorology, there's forensic engineering. 793 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: It just encompasses so many areas of study, and I 794 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: think it's important to let these students know that mean 795 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: you can you can find employment in it. You know, 796 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: it's not just a pathologist standing in an authosy cable. 797 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: There is, you know, a small army of forensic scientists 798 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: out there with you know, an imaginable specialization that they 799 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: have acquired in techniques, and we it's very employable and 800 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: we certainly need, you know, more students coming into it 801 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: because we have to replace ourselves, you know. So it's 802 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: one of my activities and my jobs to talk to 803 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: student groups and try to get them interested in forensic science. 804 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: We have lots of students who have over one thousand 805 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: students in our programs right now, so it's been very 806 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: successful to us. In the flip side of that coin 807 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 1: is forensic science, in at least in the universities I've 808 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: been involved with in some of the data I've seen 809 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: her for first year incoming students has a fairly high 810 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: attrition rate. You lose a lot of first year students 811 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,399 Speaker 1: because I think the CSI effect hits right. They watch 812 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: too much TV and true crime and it is very interesting, 813 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of science behind it, and you 814 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: really can't get away from the science and the field 815 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: work and the data analysis. The most common questions that 816 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,839 Speaker 1: I get from concerned first year students as well. I 817 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: like the forensics part, but I don't like the science part. 818 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: So how do I do forensics without science? So you know, 819 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: the harsh reality is it's not cut out for everyone 820 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: because you can't get away from a lot of the sciences. 821 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: But if you can get through the science aspect, it's 822 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: a very rewarding career and very employable. 823 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,240 Speaker 2: Forensics is science. How do you I don't even understand. 824 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 2: I do know what you mean, though, because while I 825 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 2: was and I didn't specifically go for forensics. I went 826 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 2: for pathology, but there was a lot of the chemistry 827 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 2: and learning about moles and doing algebra problems and organic 828 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 2: chemistry and this and that, things that don't necessarily apply 829 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 2: to what I ended up doing for a living, but you. 830 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: Have to get through that. 831 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 2: But a lot of it does apply. I try to 832 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 2: tell my kids that all the time. With math, that 833 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 2: it stretches your brain and it helps you problem solve. 834 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 2: And with forensics especially, you really need to be able 835 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 2: to think about things because everything isn't always going to 836 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 2: be how it's presented, you know. 837 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a reason why you suffer through the physical chemistry, 838 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 1: using the organic chemistries and the algebra and calculastic It 839 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: does have application. May take you a while to realize it, 840 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,959 Speaker 1: of course, but there is an application for it. But yeah, 841 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,479 Speaker 1: physic science I think is a highly suggested career for 842 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, students looking for their place. 843 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that the CSI shows and stuff, they 844 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 2: make everything look so glamorous and that it's very easy 845 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 2: to solve something in a half hour. And then you 846 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 2: go into a real morgue in the city and just think, Okay, 847 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 2: that medical examiner isn't some hot chick, and this office 848 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 2: doesn't have any shiny stainless seal walls. It looks like 849 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies in. 850 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: Here, and yeah, we don't work in the dark either, 851 00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, good lights really bad. Yea. So the 852 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: you know CSI and all of this editions, you know, Miami, 853 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, New York, I mean that it there. Uh, 854 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of negativity around that because a lot 855 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: of people think that it doesn't play, you know, portray 856 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: forensic science accurately, of course, and it can't, right, I mean, 857 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 1: it is entertainment. And there are several people have now 858 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: done dissertations on the CSI effect, you know, and the 859 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: unreasonable expectation that sometimes the public has and what we 860 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: can do. But the flip side of the coin is 861 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: it is made the word forensics kind of a household name, right, 862 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 1: Lots of people talk about it, lots of people are interested. 863 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: But you know, the show CSI wasn't the first time 864 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,720 Speaker 1: we had it. I mean Nancy Drew and Sherlock Holmes 865 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: and then we had Quincy Medical Examiner or television show. 866 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 2: Uh. 867 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 1: You know, each generation has its you know, attachment to 868 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: that type of type of work, and it's a if 869 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: you watch old episodes of Quincy, there's a lot of 870 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: similarities there and how they portray stuff. But yeah, I 871 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: mean if you get through that and really get down 872 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,879 Speaker 1: into what is it, uh, I think it still has 873 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: interest for a massive out of people. 874 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 2: I always tell people that with my Instagram that because 875 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 2: so many people want to end up doing what I 876 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 2: do as a pathologist assistant. And I say, like, the 877 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 2: actual job isn't as exciting as I make it out 878 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 2: to be because I just show you the really cool stuff. 879 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 2: But if you just recorded me at work all day 880 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 2: disecting surgical smess, evens, it might be kind of boring, 881 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,319 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, there are definitely fun part for 882 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 2: me because I'm a science nerd and I just think 883 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,320 Speaker 2: everything is exciting, but I think it wouldn't be entertaining 884 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 2: to the mass public. That's what I think anyway. 885 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: I amend you exactly right on that. 886 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 2: All right, well, awesome, thank you so much for being 887 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 2: here today, and I can't wait to meet you. 888 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: Right thick Air and I'll see you at crime Con. 889 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 2: I'll say yeah bye, thank you for listening to mother 890 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 2: nos Death. As a reminder, my training is as a 891 00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 2: pathologist assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize 892 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 2: in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor 893 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 2: and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or 894 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 2: alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, 895 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 2: my website, and social media accounts are designed to educate 896 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 2: and inform people based on my experience working in pathology, 897 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 2: so they can make healthier decisions regarding their life and 898 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,439 Speaker 2: well being. Always remember that science is changing every day 899 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 2: and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on 900 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 2: my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication. 901 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 2: If you are having a medical problem, have a medical question, 902 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 2: or having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or 903 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:50,240 Speaker 2: visit an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, 904 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 2: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, 905 00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 2: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks the job, A little 906 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 2: w