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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and Welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today's episode centers around two individuals who

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Speaker 1: scared the living ship out of me whenever their videos

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Speaker 1: appeared on MTV and I was in like elementary school.

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Speaker 1: We got Marilyn Manson, we got Trent res The nineties

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Speaker 1: really were a glory period for a specific kind of

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Speaker 1: rock star. You know, let's call it the horror movie

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Speaker 1: nihilistic keytonist, and Trent Resider and Marilyn Manson personify that archetype.

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Speaker 1: I mean, at their respective peaks, they were to go

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Speaker 1: to rock guys for provocation, back when rock bands still

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Speaker 1: had enough capital to have people care about whether they

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Speaker 1: were shocking or not. Oh yeah, I remember. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in this really, really small town in Massachusetts, like

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Speaker 1: we just got our second stoplight like a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: and we had this tiny civic center where they had

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Speaker 1: like ccuses and stuff, and I think it double was

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Speaker 1: a planetarium. It was a small, small venue and for

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Speaker 1: some reason, Marilyn Manson performed there and it tore the

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Speaker 1: town apart, like there was this huge debate, free speech

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Speaker 1: debate and all a little town hall, and it was

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Speaker 1: like in all the little local newspapers and extended into

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Speaker 1: the classrooms like English classrooms were talking about all sorts

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Speaker 1: of free speech debates and stuff. It was really interesting

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Speaker 1: to see it at like a ground level, and it's

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Speaker 1: just astonishing to look back now on what massive cultural

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Speaker 1: figures he was and Trent was too. Yeah, it's funny

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Speaker 1: to me that he played there in ninety seven and

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Speaker 1: not two thousand seven, because I feel like that was

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Speaker 1: the era with Marilyn Manson was basically just playing any

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Speaker 1: little theater that would have him at that point. But

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Speaker 1: you know, in the nineties, these two guys really were

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Speaker 1: a big deal, and you know, behind the theatrics, you

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Speaker 1: know they were friends and had a kind of mentor

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Speaker 1: student relationship, with Trent Resident playing the big brother genius

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Speaker 1: and Marilyn Manson acting as as his willing and eager pupil.

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Speaker 1: But then things fell apart and their friendship ended up

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Speaker 1: in a downward spiral, if you will. We got the

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Speaker 1: pun in early this week. Yeah, that's exactly. There's much

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Speaker 1: to dive into here. So without further ado, let's get

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Speaker 1: into this mess. Try. Wrestler grew up with his grandparents

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Speaker 1: in a small farming town in Pennsylvania, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people don't know is he was classically trained on

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Speaker 1: piano is a five year old and spent upwards of

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Speaker 1: ten hours a day practicing. And the funny thing is

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Speaker 1: a former piano teachers quoted as saying Restler always reminded

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Speaker 1: me of Harry Connick Jr. When he played which can

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Speaker 1: we get a Harry like Harry cover closer or something

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Speaker 1: like I really want to get amazing like a jazzy closer.

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Speaker 1: That's what the world needs. And he also played saxon

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Speaker 1: tuba in his school marching bands, performed in like the

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Speaker 1: drama Society. He was Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, which

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Speaker 1: is a little foreshadowing for Antichrist Superstar maybe. And then

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Speaker 1: his teenage years and he discovered kiss and horror films

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Speaker 1: which helped transform him into the Trent that we know

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Speaker 1: and love. And apparently he watched the Omen and became

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Speaker 1: convinced that he was the Antichrist himself and spent hours

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Speaker 1: searching his skull for three sixes in the Mirror. I

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Speaker 1: love that story and it is so telling with Trent Resiner.

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Speaker 1: But you know, along with you know, the Omen and

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Speaker 1: Kiss and horror films, I think it is important to

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Speaker 1: focus just as much on the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: classically trained on piano as a kid, and that he

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Speaker 1: was involved in productions of Jesus Christ Superstar, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I think at heart, Trent Resider is a music geek.

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Speaker 1: You know, he is a guy who devoted himself to

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Speaker 1: learning everything that he could have about music and it

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Speaker 1: really made him, I think, one of the most talented

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Speaker 1: musicians certainly of like the ault rock era that we saw.

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Speaker 1: And it's the reason why I think Trent Resiner, you know,

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Speaker 1: when we look at him in retrospect, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: had a much bigger career than just nine inch Nails.

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Speaker 1: He's moved into many different arenas and then we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about that in this episode. But that, to

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Speaker 1: me is like the crucial contrast between these guys, because

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Speaker 1: I think Resner, once he got past his shock rocker phase,

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Speaker 1: there was this whole other side to him musically that

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Speaker 1: allowed him, you know, to move on in his career,

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Speaker 1: whereas Marilyn Manson. I think you have the imagery, you

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Speaker 1: have the shock value, and what else do you have

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Speaker 1: beyond that? You know, it seems like there maybe isn't

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Speaker 1: as much of that core with Manson as we have

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Speaker 1: with Trent Resiner. You're right, yeah, Resiner. At his heart,

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Speaker 1: he's he's a songwriter, and I feel like that's something

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Speaker 1: that that gets overshadowed too much when you talk about him.

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Speaker 1: And he had a lot to say. I mean, growing

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Speaker 1: up in Rule, Pennsylvania, he had the strong desire to

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Speaker 1: escape this really sheltered existence and the sense of isolation

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Speaker 1: is what really motivated him the right and fueled the

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Speaker 1: rage in his music. He would say in an interview

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Speaker 1: with Rolling Stone in I don't know why I want

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Speaker 1: to do these things other than my desire to escape

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Speaker 1: small town USA, to dismiss the boundaries, to explore It

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Speaker 1: isn't a bad place where I grew up, but there

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Speaker 1: was nothing going on but the corn fields. And as

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Speaker 1: a kid, he's out, you know, in the corn fields,

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Speaker 1: consuming media that just bombarded him with images of cool

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Speaker 1: people in cool places and cool opportunities, things that weren't

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Speaker 1: available where he was, and it made him really angry

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Speaker 1: and resentful, and he would say, you know, it almost

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Speaker 1: taught you to realize that this isn't for you. And

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Speaker 1: for Trent, writing was his way out, you know it.

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Speaker 1: When we do this show, it really brings I think

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Speaker 1: to the fore for me about how certain kinds of

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Speaker 1: stories get repeated in rock history, and one of those

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Speaker 1: stories is the alienated midwesterner who is looking out, you know,

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Speaker 1: into the world and like Trent Resirees, seeing these cool

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Speaker 1: people who are living lives of excitement that he can't

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Speaker 1: live and he eventually turns to music in order to

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Speaker 1: reinvent himself. And we've seen this on our show. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about people like Michael Jackson, Axel Rose, Billy Corgan,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is also the case for Marilyn Manson.

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Speaker 1: We're going to see that when we get into his

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Speaker 1: story that he had a very similar background of you know,

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Speaker 1: in a way you look at the facade of their

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Speaker 1: lives and it's very you know, small town America. It's

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Speaker 1: all the things that you would associate with the middle

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Speaker 1: of the country, all the sort of corny heartland type stereotypes,

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Speaker 1: and yet beneath that, just like in you know, a

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Speaker 1: David Lynch movie. If you dig in to the depths

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Speaker 1: of it, you see all these like disgusting insects and

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Speaker 1: dirt and filth rolling around together. And that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: up rising to the surface eventually, midwesterners and pancake makeup.

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Speaker 1: What is he got? Billy Corgan, You've got Marilyn Manson,

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Speaker 1: but very pale nost furat to look, what is that? Well,

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Speaker 1: we don't get a lot of sunshine Jordan's, you know,

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Speaker 1: like we're suck inside for six months out of the year.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not even sure if it's pancake makeup. We're

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Speaker 1: just pale people here in the middle of the country.

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Speaker 1: So Resident moved to Cleveland in five and he was

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Speaker 1: twenty three, and he got a job as an engineer

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Speaker 1: at a local studio and the owner let him use

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Speaker 1: the space on the off hours to to work on

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Speaker 1: his demos, and he drew lyrics from his diary, and

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Speaker 1: many of these early songs ended up on the nine

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Speaker 1: inch Nail's first album, Pretty Hate Machine, And his reaction

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Speaker 1: to the success of this record was to effectively rebel

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Speaker 1: against it, and he put out two EPs just a

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Speaker 1: few months apart, Broken and Fixed, and this is kind

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Speaker 1: of a unique, someone say, tricky promotional strategy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: following up a successful album with two EPs released in

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Speaker 1: rapid succession. It's definitely unusual. But this is nothing compared

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Speaker 1: to the string of really nightmare inducing music videos that

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Speaker 1: MTV deemed too graphic to air. I mean, the most

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Speaker 1: infamous of this is the video for Happiness and Slavery,

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Speaker 1: which shows a man being ripped to pieces by a machine,

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Speaker 1: seemingly for some element of sexual pleasure. It's I tried

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Speaker 1: to rewatch that and I got about maybe a minute

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Speaker 1: and a half in, and I just think I couldn't

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Speaker 1: do it. It's a laugh a minute, feel good hit.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a lot, you know. I mean, despite, or

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Speaker 1: probably because of, these bands, Nine Inch Nails popularity continued

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Speaker 1: to grow, and Resident really stood out when viewed against

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Speaker 1: these like really kind of grotesquely decadent hair metal bands

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Speaker 1: that were holdovers from from the late eighties and and

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Speaker 1: they were looking more and more like cultural dinosaurs at

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Speaker 1: that point, and Resident was on the cutting edge. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think the imagery of those videos it was so

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Speaker 1: overwhelming that I think people in some ways like overlooked

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Speaker 1: the music of Nine Inch Nails uh, and where Trent

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Speaker 1: resident was coming from, because you like, when I revisit

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Speaker 1: those early you know records, you know, pretty eight Machine

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Speaker 1: in the Broken p and and Fixed, you know what

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Speaker 1: strikes me is one, like how good the production is,

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Speaker 1: Like just how good at putting together records Trent Resoner is,

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Speaker 1: and and to like how poppy a lot of the

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Speaker 1: songs are, you know, even like Broken, which I think

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Speaker 1: at the time was conceived as like the angry follow

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Speaker 1: up to Pretty Hate Machine. You know, it's a much

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Speaker 1: noisier record if you get past the noise and you

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Speaker 1: get past the scary videos, Like there's really good hooks

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Speaker 1: on that EP, and like the lyrics are evocative, and

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Speaker 1: they're and they're strongly emotional. And I don't think it

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Speaker 1: was really until people like Johnny Cash started covering Trent

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Speaker 1: Resoner songs that people could look beyond again the iconography

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Speaker 1: of ninage nails and and just appreciate Trent Resoner as

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Speaker 1: a musician. But you know, again, that's his strength, the

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Speaker 1: fact that like he wasn't just a guy pushing cultural buttons,

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Speaker 1: like he could do that. But I think it was

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Speaker 1: a means to an end. It was a way to

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Speaker 1: get attention for his music, which once we get past

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Speaker 1: the shock value of the time, like the music I

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Speaker 1: think really can stand on its own, which again I

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Speaker 1: want to take this opportunity to say, Harry Connick Jr.

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Speaker 1: If you're listening Trent Resiner covers album, it will be great.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Melody, Happiness and Slavery. You know, some

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Speaker 1: scat singing on that little orchestra would be beautiful. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. So Trent Star was on the ascent in

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Speaker 1: the late eighties, he crossed pass with Marilyn Manson, who

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Speaker 1: then was working as a journalist for a South Florida

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Speaker 1: lifestyle magazine called Parallel and uh I I presumably he

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Speaker 1: was using his real name, Brian Warner, and not Marilyn Manson,

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Speaker 1: which isn't the most friendly pen name in the world,

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Speaker 1: but who knows. I love that his name is Brian Warner,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the most generic like guy name of

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Speaker 1: the time, Like it couldn't be anymore bland. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he was Brian Warner at the time. And

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Speaker 1: then you know what he had to transform into Marylyn

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Speaker 1: Manson later on. Can you imagine he wasn't just showing

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Speaker 1: up to like an interview. Hey, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm Merylen Parallel. Yeah, he's this a good Spot's

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Speaker 1: a good time, Like, yeah, that's that would be one

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Speaker 1: way to get a unique interview in that era. But

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Speaker 1: but anyway, Brian Warner slash Marilyn Manson meets up with

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Speaker 1: Trent Resiner at a club in Florida. According to Manson's memoir,

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Speaker 1: he describes Resoner is just sort of sulking in a

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Speaker 1: corner during their first meeting and thought a little bit

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Speaker 1: when they started chatting, but you would say they had

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Speaker 1: a lot in common and they became friendly. It was

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Speaker 1: a good interview. But the power dynamic is really clear.

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Speaker 1: I mean Manson would say, I was just another journalist

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Speaker 1: talking to me. It was a good way, is any

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Speaker 1: for him to pass the time in a show in

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Speaker 1: a city where he didn't know anybody. So the power

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Speaker 1: dynamic there was very clear. I mean I wouldn't even

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Speaker 1: say that it was like a journalist rockstar dynamic. It

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Speaker 1: was more like a fanboy rock star dynamic. And you

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Speaker 1: can see that like the second time that they meet.

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Speaker 1: This is like a few years later, and by now

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Speaker 1: Brian Warner has become Marilyn Manson. He has a band

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Speaker 1: called the Spooky Kids, which I think it's like a

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Speaker 1: hilarious name, like I mean, come on, like the Spooky Kids, Like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, these kids are spooky, Like look out

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Speaker 1: for this BANDO. Anyway, like, they were opening up for

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Speaker 1: nine Inch Nails at this club in Miami, and after

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Speaker 1: the show, Manson walked up to Resoner. He was tripping

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Speaker 1: on acid at the time, and he was basically like

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Speaker 1: looking for feedback from Resoner, and he quickly ascertained that,

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Speaker 1: like Resiner did not watch the opening act, he probably

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Speaker 1: saw that they were called the Spooky Kids and was like,

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Speaker 1: now this band definitely sucks. I don't have to pay attention.

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Speaker 1: And uh, Manson is is basically just blathering on, you know,

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Speaker 1: high office kite and just being a fanboy with Resident's

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Speaker 1: and he's passing him. I think he eventually passes him

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Speaker 1: a tape and he's like, yo, please listen to this.

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Speaker 1: And you think at that point, like, how many tapes

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Speaker 1: has Resiner been passed at this point in his career.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure many, and yet this tape somehow ends up

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Speaker 1: making an impression on him. Yeah, it's incredible that like

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Speaker 1: that was the one he chose to listen to because

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Speaker 1: a short time later, when he's launching Nothing Records, his

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Speaker 1: sort of vanity side label from Interscope, Manson gets a

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Speaker 1: call from Residers manager and he wants to hear more.

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Speaker 1: And then days after Manson sends him a more complete demo,

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Speaker 1: he gets a call from Resider himself to tell him

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Speaker 1: that he's recording an album, the album that will become

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Speaker 1: a downward spiral at the bell Air home on Clo

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Speaker 1: Drive where Sharon Tate was murdered in nine which Trent,

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Speaker 1: Chris and Lee pig after the message written on the

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Speaker 1: door in Sharon Tate's blood. Uh for a guy who

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Speaker 1: named themselves Marilyn Manson, you know, the chance to go

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Speaker 1: work in the famous Manson murders home is just like

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Speaker 1: too good to pass up. And I guess he always

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Speaker 1: wanted to record a version of the the Charles Manson

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Speaker 1: song My Monkey in the middle of that house. So

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Speaker 1: Resu said, yeah, come on out. We're working on some

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Speaker 1: some recordings and let's try to get something happening. And

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Speaker 1: I think the first thing they actually collaborated on was

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Speaker 1: a video for the nine Inch Nails song Gave Up

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Speaker 1: and Manson's pretending to play guitar in the background in

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Speaker 1: in Sharon Tate's living room, which is Fate. Fate's a

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Speaker 1: hell of a thing. Yeah, and you know, can we

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Speaker 1: just say pretty tasteless too, I mean, come on, like

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Speaker 1: these two guys, It's like, look, I have loud respect

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Speaker 1: for Trent Resoner, I have like some affection for Manson.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if i'd say respect necessarily, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like these two like nerdy guys hanging out

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Speaker 1: in a place where horrific murders took place and glamorizing

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Speaker 1: just is kind of lame to me. Yeah. Years later,

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Speaker 1: I think he tried to say that he passed it

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Speaker 1: off as he had no idea the history of the

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Speaker 1: place until after he had already like the deal had

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Speaker 1: already been done. But that seems pretty hard to believe.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty identifiable place. Yeah, exactly. So. Anyway, Marilyn Manson,

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Speaker 1: he's now entering the nine in Shnails world. And you know,

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Speaker 1: just to give a little background on Manson, as we

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Speaker 1: said before, just as Trent Resoner was from the middle

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Speaker 1: of the country and he grew up, you know, dreaming

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Speaker 1: of a more exciting life and feeling alienated by the

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Speaker 1: world around him. Manson was also from the middle of

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Speaker 1: the countries, from Ohio, but you know, like Resoner's story,

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Speaker 1: it seems like a little more conventional, like he's really

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Speaker 1: just describing the lives of I think millions of people

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Speaker 1: from the Midwest, where you know, he's talking about being alienated.

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Speaker 1: But like when Manson recounts his origin story, of course

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Speaker 1: it has to be way more colorful than anyone's story. Ever.

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Speaker 1: And there's two I think big things from his childhood

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Speaker 1: that are worth highlighting. The first is the fact that

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Speaker 1: when he was growing up, he was a very sickly child.

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Speaker 1: He had allergies. He was allergic to everything from like

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Speaker 1: eggs to like fabric softener, so he was bedridden for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and he found out later that in fact,

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Speaker 1: he probably wasn't actually allergic to a lot of things

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Speaker 1: because his mother essentially was mentally ill. She had this

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Speaker 1: syndrome called Munchausen by proxy, which is this phenomenon where

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Speaker 1: parents basically make their kids sick in order to satisfy

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Speaker 1: some steep psychological need. I think the idea is that

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Speaker 1: the parent feels needed when their child is sick, and

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Speaker 1: it's also something that they can obsess over and maybe

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Speaker 1: like project their anxiety onto. So Manson discovers us later

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Speaker 1: in his life, and not only did he have to

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Speaker 1: deal with the difficulty of being a sick child, but

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Speaker 1: now he has to also contend with the betrayal of

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Speaker 1: a parent who was really abusing him, like throughout his childhood,

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Speaker 1: just to satisfy, you know, whatever psychological need that they had.

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Speaker 1: So there's that that is a very big thing. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a story about his grandfather. And this is

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Speaker 1: uh story. Yeah, I remember this story. This is He

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Speaker 1: writes about this in his memoir The Long Hard Road

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Speaker 1: out of Hell, which is one of the most I

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Speaker 1: think notorious rock memoirs ever and also I think one

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Speaker 1: of the most sort of factually suspect rock memoirs. Ridiculous. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of things in that book that, like

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Speaker 1: you cannot take at face value, and one of them

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Speaker 1: is the story about his grandfather. He tells the story

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Speaker 1: about how when when Manson was around the age of twelve,

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Speaker 1: he was in the basement of his grandfather's house and

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Speaker 1: he discovered what can be described I guess we'll call

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Speaker 1: it a masturbation den would that be the proper term

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Speaker 1: that sounds about right? Yeah, it's basically this part of

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Speaker 1: the basement like where his grandfather would keep very disturbing pornography, uh,

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Speaker 1: including instances of beast reality, and he would sit in

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Speaker 1: a chair while wearing lingerie and he would masturbate while

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Speaker 1: watching this this porn. And I guess there were like

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Speaker 1: weird sex toys everywhere, and there's like used condoms there apparently.

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Speaker 1: I guess his grandfather had like a tracheotomy, So like

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Speaker 1: the sounds that held make while you know, pleasuring himself

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Speaker 1: were even more disgusting than they would be otherwise. And

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Speaker 1: I guess he turned on like a model train to

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Speaker 1: cover the sounds of his masturbatory sounds. Now, like, look

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Speaker 1: this story, if it were just the fact that he

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Speaker 1: had a tricky out of me and that he liked to,

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Speaker 1: you know, masturbate in the basement, I could buy that.

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Speaker 1: Because Manson says, he writes in his book that he

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Speaker 1: used to like eavesdrop on his grandfather while he would

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Speaker 1: be pleasuring himself, and that this was something that fascinated him.

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Speaker 1: And you can extrapolate from there that this sort of

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00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 1: formulated who he was going to be as a grown up.

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Speaker 1: It's like I can buy the tricky otomy. I can

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Speaker 1: buy the masturbation, but like when you start adding like

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Speaker 1: the beast reality part and like the lingerie part, it

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Speaker 1: just seems like bullshit to me, Like maybe there's a

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Speaker 1: germ of reality there, but I think there's just seems

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00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 1: to be a ton of exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration.

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Speaker 1: For me, it's the train bit that pushes it over

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00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: the ends. The model train that's like a deleted scene

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00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 1: from seven. That's like, yeah, it's definitely makes you wonder

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Speaker 1: if this was like a rejected video concept that he

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Speaker 1: wanted to use somewhere and so he was really happy

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Speaker 1: to like work it into his memoir or something, because it's, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty extreme. It's just like it's like trying so hard,

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Speaker 1: you know, to you know, and like the mother story,

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Speaker 1: I mean I buy that story. You know, that seems plausible.

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Speaker 1: And it's like again, like if you just wrote a

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Speaker 1: story about, like, you know, discovering your grandfather masturbating, that's

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00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 1: a pretty disgusting story just on its own. You don't

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Speaker 1: need the lingerie part. I just feel like that makes

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00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 1: it less believable. But you know, maybe we're both wrong.

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Speaker 1: Maybe this was the most unique masturbator in all of Ohio.

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00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 1: And you know, and this is the thing that made

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Speaker 1: Marilyn Manson who he became. It's definitely in him. Whether

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00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 1: or not it was real or just in his imagination,

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00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 1: it's definitely in his mind. And it comes out on

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Speaker 1: his first album. Once he signed to Nothing Records in Uh,

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00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,479
Speaker 1: Manson begins working on his debut LP, which was initially

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00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,119
Speaker 1: called The Manson Family Album, solid title there, but it

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00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 1: ultimately morphed into portrait of an American family. And the

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00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: original producer this album was Rolly Massaman, who previously worked

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Speaker 1: with bands like The Swans, but as the recording progressed,

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00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: the band felt that his style of production really wasn't

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Speaker 1: working for him. They were I felt Roy was trying

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Speaker 1: to make a more just kind of shaved down all

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Speaker 1: the rough edges and make them in the more of

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Speaker 1: a pop band, which is really not what they were

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Speaker 1: about at all. So Resner ended up stepping up into

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00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 1: the producer's seat and it seemed like the ideal solution,

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00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, who better to nurture the depraved

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00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 1: mind of Marilyn Manson than the guy from nine inch Nails,

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00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 1: and in Yeah It's October, Resiner commits the project. He

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00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 1: takes members of the touring members of nine inch Nails

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00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 1: to help complete the album. UH. They re record many

383
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 1: of the tracks and reworked some of the old material

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Speaker 1: and release it under the name Portrait of an American Family.

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Speaker 1: And it didn't make a huge splash, but I don't

386
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,919
Speaker 1: think it charted, but it had some huge standout songs

387
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: now like Dope Hat, lunch Box and Cake and Sodomi

388
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: Uh in which he proclaims himself the god of Fuck,

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00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 1: which I hastened to add was a that's a Charles

390
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,119
Speaker 1: Manson line right there. That's what he used to say

391
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 1: to his followers. But but it ended up sticking more

392
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,959
Speaker 1: with with Maryland and in addition to Trent's musical expertise,

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00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: he kind of becomes almost like a paternal figure in

394
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 1: a way to Manson, and I love the story. It

395
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: was one night doing the sessions where I guess Manson

396
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 1: was freaking out on psychedelics and Trent took him and

397
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 1: some of his band UH in his minivan over to McDonald's,

398
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 1: this trying him like a chill out happy meal or

399
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,640
Speaker 1: something and started a little food fight in the car

400
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 1: and just got the vibes back on, you know, on

401
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 1: an even playing, which is adorable in its own weird,

402
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 1: twisted way. Yeah. I mean again, when they make the uh,

403
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: the Marylyn Manson biopic, I hope that scene is in there.

404
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: That the heartwarming McDonald scene with Trent Rustler and Manson

405
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: having a food fight. I think that's very moving. I know,

406
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 1: the first Manson music that I remember hearing came from

407
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 1: the follow up to the debut, which was Smells Like Children.

408
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 1: It was the EP it came out in and this

409
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: ended up the being the breakout hit for Ryan Manson

410
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 1: because of a very famous cover of the song Sweet

411
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: Dreams by Rhythmics, and of course, in Marilyn Manson's interpretation,

412
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 1: it became this very dark, dirgy, gothy metal song, alt

413
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 1: metal song. And you know, when I think about it now,

414
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: I don't really remember like what that song sounds like,

415
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,919
Speaker 1: but I remember the music video where Marilyn Manson is

416
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 1: like this very disturbing figure, like you don't really know

417
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: what he is. It's like is he a human? Is

418
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 1: he an alien? Is he a monster? There's something very

419
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,959
Speaker 1: unusual about him, and it reminds me in a lot

420
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 1: of ways of like horror movie franchises. Like when you

421
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 1: watch the first movie of a horror movie franchise, it's

422
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 1: like the first time you see Freddy Krueger or Jason,

423
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 1: it's very scary. It's like what is this thing? Like

424
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: how can we contend with this? It's like is this human?

425
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 1: Is he gonna kill me? What is it? And I

426
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 1: think Manson had that same sort of impact the first

427
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 1: time that you saw him on MTV. The thing about

428
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: shock value, though, is that, of course it has a

429
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 1: very short shelf life, and once you get over the

430
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: initial shock of seeing you know, like a monstrous figure

431
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 1: that's like, you know, mysterious and enigmatic, is that they

432
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 1: quickly become silly and even funny, you know. And like

433
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: I think as you get deeper into like the Nightmare

434
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: in elm Street movies, like the first one scary, but

435
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: like by the fifth one, it's like pretty dumb and

436
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: like you're just watching it for the camp value, you know.

437
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 1: It's the same thing with the Friday the Thirteenth films.

438
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: And I think as we'll see as we get deeper

439
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: in this episode that Marilyn Manson had a very similar

440
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: trajectory where when he first came on the scene, he

441
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,959
Speaker 1: was very terrifying. You know, he was the boogeyman of Suburbia.

442
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 1: People didn't know what to make of this guy. But

443
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 1: then as we get to the end of the nineties

444
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: and then into the auts and beyond, he is more

445
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: of a campy figure, I think, and more of a

446
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: person that is uh. I think, for the most part

447
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: unintentionally funny, although at times I think that he's in

448
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: on his own joke, maybe more than he gets credit for. Yeah,

449
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 1: it's tough to say. I mean, I feel like that

450
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: happened quickly. As he said, it's a short shelf life

451
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 1: for him doing his shock thing. Although I have to

452
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: say choosing to cover sweet Dreams with a video like

453
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: that was pretty genius because I mean it's basically, you

454
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: know you will not be having sweet dreams after watching

455
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: that video. I vividly remember having many nightmares after watching

456
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: matt As as a how overall, it would have been

457
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,239
Speaker 1: eight years old or something when that came out, So

458
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: totally good call for a video cover there. I mean,

459
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: I think of how when you were describing your first

460
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: reaction to Axel Rose and the Welcome with Jungle video,

461
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: just like, what is this figure? Yeah, it was truly

462
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: truly terrifying for a little kid. It was genuinely freaky. Yeah,

463
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: And again, I think it's got to be said where

464
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 1: we're at in the timeline right now, which is the

465
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: mid nineties, what he was doing was working like it

466
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: was legitimately effective and shocking, and he was getting a

467
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of attention and was like rapidly becoming like a

468
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: pretty huge rock star in the mid nineties. And he

469
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: really goes to a different level with Antichrist superstar, and

470
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: he goes down to Resiners Nothing Studios in New Orleans,

471
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: UH to record there and Resiners serving as producer again,

472
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: and he's got more of his nine inch Nails associates

473
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: associating with it um. And this is really the album

474
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: that made Manson a major musical force, but it was

475
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: also the album that would drive him in uh in

476
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: Trent apart. Yeah, I mean, I think there was a

477
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: degree of seriousness with Trent Resoner that he had for

478
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: his work that, like Manson to me, did not not

479
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: that he didn't take his music seriously, but I just

480
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: feel like when Resoner was working on a record. I

481
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: get the sense that he was deep into it and

482
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: was there to work, whereas Manson, it seems like it

483
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: was about the lifestyle, like we're gonna make the making

484
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: of this album epic in a very textbook, decadent kind

485
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, I mean, it seems like it was

486
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: designed to be a great chapter in his memoir, like

487
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: it's incredibly over the top. He writes in his memoir

488
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: that the sessions were not only not productive, we were destructive. Uh.

489
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: They were just tense and chaotic and just went off

490
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: the rails pretty much from day one. I mean, this

491
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: was the era when pretty much all were concerned were

492
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: smoking bones that they had swiped from graveyards in New

493
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: Orleans and snorting sea monkeys. And Manson would later say,

494
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: the first time I stayed up for We're days straight

495
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: on crystal meth. We started to put down the music

496
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: to Anti Christ Superstar, and I may say it sounds it.

497
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I mean that's what the record sounds like. He was

498
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: experimenting with prescription drugs, which had a really, you know,

499
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: equally corrosive effect on his creativity and band relations. Nothing

500
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: Studios was a formal funeral home. So I mean it

501
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: couldn't have been a great vibe, and the band weren't

502
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: really happy being in New Orleans. They just thought it

503
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: was it was a dark and creepy place, and Um

504
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: and the band dealt with their frustrations by acting out.

505
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: They would throw drum machines out the window and put

506
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: tape machines in the microwave, and fry the circuitry just

507
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: for the hell of it, and smash guitars. And my

508
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: favorite story from the sessions is when Manson and some

509
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: of his bandmates set up a tent in the middle

510
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: of the live room in the studio and watched all

511
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 1: three Alien movies back to back all night, and then

512
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: when they were overset off fireworks indoors and nearly burnt

513
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: the studio to the corn. Yeah, I mean, it's just

514
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: it's again trying too hard. And Man's would also say

515
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: he had taken to shoving sewing needles underneath his fingernails

516
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: at this time to tell his pain threshold, because, as

517
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: he wrote in his memoir, my emotional one had already

518
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: been crossed. So that's what we're dealing with, all right hand,

519
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more rivals. Yeah, when I

520
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: look at these sessions. Again, it just drives home that

521
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: doing blow and drinking all day long it's not really

522
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: good for your mental or your physical makeup, because it

523
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: seems like all the characters in this story at this

524
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: point like that's what they're doing, even Trent Resiner. Like

525
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: Resiner talked later, you know, after he cleaned up that

526
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: like he was deep into cocaine addiction at this time,

527
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: that he was really drinking a lot. And you know,

528
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: even though he was maybe the more serious one, even

529
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: he was acting out during these sessions. There's a story

530
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: about how he took one of Daisy Brookerwoods his guitars,

531
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: Daisy brook Woods as a guitar player in Marilyn Manson's band,

532
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: and he smashed it and like Brookwoods basically just like

533
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: walked out of the session after that because he was

534
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: like so put off by how Resiner was behaving. Because

535
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: I really feel like Resiner, you know, he still had

536
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: that I think big brother role. I think people were

537
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: looking to him for guidance and for approval because you know,

538
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: after Brookwooz leaves, Twiggy Ramirez really steps up as being

539
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: basically like the musical director of Marilyn Manson and whenever

540
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: Ramiers would be doing something, he would always look to

541
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,239
Speaker 1: Resiner for approval because he really considered Resiner to be

542
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: like the only other musician that was there at the time.

543
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: So that ended up being I think threatening for Manson

544
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: because this is a guy in his band, and yet

545
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: the guy in his band respected Resiner more than him.

546
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: Reser was the adult in the room basically at that

547
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: point that everyone looked to. This is really when the

548
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of the jealousy starts to creep in for Manson

549
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: and Resiner, and a big tipping point for them was

550
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: drugs sort of the chief reason why he and Trent

551
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: started to fall out during the sessions. Uh years later,

552
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: Manson claimed that Reser came them one day and basically said,

553
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: you know, this can't continue. We we we have to

554
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: stop with the drugs. This is We're not gonna get

555
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: any work done this way. We we die if we

556
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: doing this. We need we need to stop. And Manson

557
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: took it very seriously. You know, he's not only his

558
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: producer but really is his mentor, and Idol in a

559
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: lot of ways was telling him to clean up. Okay,

560
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: sure I'll do it, and he said the next day

561
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: he he got on the straight and narrow, to use

562
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: his words, and and tried to clean up, and uh,

563
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: Resiner didn't. He didn't follow through with that at all.

564
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: And in fact, Resner started to sort of make fun

565
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: of him and say that Manson was basically a nerd

566
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: for no longer doing drugs, and Resiner and Twiggy Ramrez

567
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: would just make fun of him by calling him Arch Deluxe,

568
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: And which is an incredible insult because this was at

569
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: the time in the nineties when McDonald's had a sandwich

570
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: that was marketing to adults, and it was a notorious

571
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: advertising PLoP because you know, McDonald's trying to market an

572
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: upscale burger too adults. It's preposterous, it's hokey, is disingenuous,

573
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: it's pompous, it's kind of pathetic, and the implication being

574
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 1: so is it cleaned up Marilyn Manson, So incredible insult,

575
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: but very hurtful to him. I gotta say, I'm going

576
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: to be utilizing our DeLux in my personal life. Yeah,

577
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: when I'm smacked talking like a friend of mine, I'm

578
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: gonna definitely be dropping an Arch Deluxe reference at some point.

579
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it shows that this wasn't just

580
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: a one way street in terms of like Manson acting

581
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: like a bozo and Resiner being the upstanding one. There's

582
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: certainly instances where it would be reversed, and again I

583
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 1: think that has to do with just the amount of

584
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: substance abuse that was going on at this time. A

585
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: story that really stands out from these sessions is this

586
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: this time when Resiner and Manson had a huge fight

587
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: and Resiner actually kicked Manson out of the studio and

588
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: then he took a hammer to the computer hard drive

589
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: where the masters for the album were held. And this

590
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: really becomes a huge incident for these guys because for many,

591
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: many years, and we're gonna be talking about this later

592
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: on in the episode, Manson thought that the masters for

593
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 1: Antichrist Superstar were destroyed and like lost forever because of

594
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: this uh you know active I guess drunken and drugged

595
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: out destruction by Resner, and it ended up being like

596
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: a huge wedge in their relationship when the album came

597
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: out in nineties six nine seven. This is really what

598
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: made Manson not only a rising rocks Are but just

599
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: America's most wanted rocker in the world. I mean, he

600
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: was just struck fear into the eyes of the country's

601
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: conservative sect, and Manson knew how to do it because

602
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: he was one of them. You know, he grew up

603
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: in Ohio and later suburban Florida. And it was basically

604
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: his way of critiquing uh organized religion and using it

605
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: as a metaphor for fascist elements in conservatism in the

606
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: United States. And his concerts took on the American flag,

607
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: and it took on the Bible, and there was gave

608
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: a famous performance of the Beautiful People at the v

609
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: m An and he's flanked by these sort of fake

610
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: secret Service agents and he steps up to the podium

611
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: and goes, my fellow Americans, we will no longer be

612
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: oppressed by the fascism that is Christianity. I mean, in

613
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: seven that is a huge thing to say on you know,

614
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: a basic cable hoard show. And it made him one

615
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: of the most talked about people in the country. I mean,

616
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: this was sort of just prior to the uproars caused

617
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: by Britney Spears and then Eminem slightly after that. I mean,

618
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: his his concerts were picketed by you know, pretty much

619
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 1: every major religious and civic organization you can imagine, and

620
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: he took on this mythic stature. I just I remember

621
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: being in school all the like urban legends involving like

622
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: beast reality and Satan and you know, removing a rib

623
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: for sexual reasons and all that kind of stuff. And

624
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: he became as larger in life figure. I mean, he

625
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: was banned from performing in state operated venues in utahs,

626
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: in schools in his home state of Florida, threatened to

627
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: expel kids for attending his shows. I mean this was huge,

628
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: huge cultural figure. Yeah, it reminds me of how like

629
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: in the eighties there was that Satanic panic going on,

630
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: like where people thought satanic cults were looking everywhere, and

631
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: that anxiety really transferred to Marilyn Manson in the nineties,

632
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: like he became the new again boogeyman that if you

633
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: were scared about the kids getting involved in the dark

634
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: side of of the world or you know, worshiping the

635
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: devil or whatever, like, Marilyn Manson is the person you're

636
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: gonna be afraid of. And it's an interesting contrast with

637
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: Trent Resoner at this time because you know Resiner, you

638
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: know Nine Inch Nails. They put out the Downward Spiral

639
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: in which is a huge landmark record. That's the album

640
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: of course that has Closer on it. Nine Inch Nails

641
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: ended up performing at Woodstack ninety four that year, a

642
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: very iconic performance Trent Resoner covered in the Mud, you know,

643
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: maybe the most famous performance of the band's career. But

644
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: then after that he goes into this long hibernation period

645
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: where he is working for years on this album called

646
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: The Fragile, a double record that comes out in which

647
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: is an album I love, by the way, and I

648
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: would say it's probably my favorite Nine Inch Nails record,

649
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: and I think history has proven that, you know, for

650
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: Nine Inch Nails fans, that that is one of the

651
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: band's great records. But like I remember when that album

652
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: finally dropped in ninety nine after that five year gap,

653
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: that you know, it debuted at number one and then

654
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: it fell fifteen spots the next week, which at the

655
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: time was the biggest drop I think in street for

656
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: a number one album. And there really was this window

657
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: in the late nineties where Marilyn Manson seemed like significantly

658
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: more famous than Trent Resoner. Even again, the people ultimately

659
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: held I think even then like they I think they

660
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: held Resoner in higher esteem Critically you know, I think

661
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: he was looked at as like a better artist. But

662
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: as you were saying, like, he didn't have the same

663
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: sort of like mythic boogeyman stature that Manson had. And

664
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: I'm curious, like, do you think on some level, like

665
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: the teacher became the student in this scenario or that,

666
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: or that he became the person that like, in some

667
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: way looked to Manson with envy. It's tough to say.

668
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that he envied any of the celebrity

669
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: stuff that went along with Manson. I mean, you know,

670
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: I one of the most iconic images from Manson for

671
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: me is on the VMA's Red Carpet with UH with

672
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: Rose McGowan, you know, looking like it looks like Jamaric

673
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: wis got like a big I think he's got in

674
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: my memory, at least he's got like a big fuzzy

675
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: top hat or something. And I mean he looks kind

676
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: of more ridiculous than Marilyn Manson ordinarily would. And I

677
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: just I can't imagine that became so much of Manson's life,

678
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: it seemed like in the late nineties, and I can't

679
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: imagine Resner would have cared too much about that. I

680
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: almost feel like he resented the fact that he was

681
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: more prolific in that time because it was a long

682
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: gap between. It was five years between Downward Spiral and

683
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: UH and The Fragile, and I almost feel like I

684
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: pictured Resoner at that time. It's sort of like constantly

685
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: being in the studio trying to work out his next

686
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: move and if anything else, just feeling he was falling

687
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: behind in a production race standpoint, almost like Brian Wilson

688
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: and the Beatles UH as opposed to any of the

689
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: major Like you know that, I don't think he wanted

690
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: to be that big of a cultural figure as Manson became.

691
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I think that that the musical output

692
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: that that Manson had after that UH definitely affected him. Well.

693
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: There was also one project that Resiner released in that

694
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: gap between The Downward Spiral and The Fragile was the

695
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Lost Highway soundtrack, which is an awesome thing that he

696
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: put together for the David Lynch movie that came out

697
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: in even but that was also a competitive thing for

698
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: him and Manson, Like it wasn't Manson going to do

699
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: that soundtrack originally, Yeah, David Lyndes him first, and I

700
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: don't really know why he got taken off of it,

701
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: but Resner eventually got the job, and yeah, that was

702
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: a huge blow to Manson's ego at that time. It

703
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: also took Trent away from sessions for Any Christ Superstar

704
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: because I think they were done about in tandem too,

705
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: so that kind of hurt Manson's feelings also that not

706
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: only is is Trent not here at certain points, but

707
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: he's doing this other job that he missed out on,

708
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: so that kind of I think. I think Manson at

709
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: this point is really starting to resent Trent's role in

710
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: his success, which is why Mechanical Animals, the album that

711
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: followed it, with which Trend had nothing to do with,

712
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: had such a completely different sound. It was almost like

713
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: t Rex or something. It was such a changing course

714
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: and uh, it was also the most autobiographical album to

715
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: date and really established him as an artist who you know,

716
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: took musical risks in addition to social ones. Yeah, and

717
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: you see them moving in opposite directions, Resner and Manson.

718
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: It seems like personally too, they were moving in opposite directions.

719
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: Like Manson that up writing about this in his book

720
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: that in the late nineties he was making attempts like

721
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: to reach out to Restiner, I think, just to hang out,

722
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: you know, just to be pals again, and Resiner was

723
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: really blowing him off. And again this was when he

724
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: was in the middle of that I think intense deliberation

725
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: over the fragile But it seems like there was also

726
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: a feeling on resiner side that like he had to

727
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: put distance between him and Manson, that like, I think

728
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: he looked at Manson as a toxic presence in his life.

729
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: He gave an interview I think it was in ninety

730
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: seven with Spin where he referred to Manson as a careerist,

731
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: which I think, you know, whenever someone accuses another person

732
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: of being a career is I do feel like there

733
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: is an element of jealousy sometimes in that, you know,

734
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: this idea that like, well, the reason that you're doing

735
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: so well is because you care about your career. Well,

736
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I'm sure Trent Resider also cared about

737
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 1: his career. I mean, you don't become as successful as

738
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: Resiner without also being a careerist. But I think that

739
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: as you were saying before, the pursuit of fame and

740
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: self mythology that Manson I think was primarily concerned with

741
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: at this time, even more than music. It was something

742
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: that I think for Resoner he was starting to back

743
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: away from. I think he was starting to grow that

744
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: moment in his life. And you know, to go back

745
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: to the Long Road out of Hell, the Manson memoirks

746
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: that came out, I think it was it was like

747
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: late nineties, which is a crazy time for him to

748
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: be putting on a memoir. I mean, this guy, he

749
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: hasn't had that long of a career yet and he's

750
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: already writing his life story. And you know, as we've

751
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: said before, there's a lot of things in that book

752
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: that have the feel of bullshit, and there's also just

753
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: like a lot of ugliness in that book for the

754
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: sake of ugliness. Like I think it's fair to call

755
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: that a misogynist book. Like the treatment of women in

756
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: that book, and like how how it glamorizes the debasement

757
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: of women, women that would be backstage admiral and massive concerts,

758
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: especially in retrospect, it's very gross. Has an age well

759
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: in the least, and I just think that with Resner,

760
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: it just feels like that maybe he was moving beyond

761
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: that in some respects. Yeah, I mean that book is

762
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: just filled with so many grotesque scenes. I mean the

763
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: meet and Greek section alone, uh is absolutely horrifying. Yeah,

764
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: it is such a weird move. Was he thirty years

765
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: old when he wrote that too? I mean, it was

766
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: such a weird move to do that at that point.

767
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: And you're right, it seemed purely to be done to

768
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: sort of like establish his own myth at this period,

769
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: which I can't imagine that that Trent when given a

770
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: shit about what people knew about him. I don't. I

771
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: know very little about you know, his personal life and

772
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: his his story. There doesn't seem to be much of

773
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: a myth to Trent. To me, I picked him as,

774
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: as you know, a workman like songwriter and producer, and

775
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: I mean that as a compliment, whereas he, you know,

776
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: Manson is this uh cartoon in a lot of ways.

777
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: But Trent really is starting to resent that sort of

778
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: the more career a side of Manson. And he puts

779
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: his feelings into a song on the Fragile called star

780
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: Fuckers Incorporated, which is very subtle. Yeah, yeah, subtle criticism there.

781
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: Incredible title. It's directed at Man and also at Courtney

782
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: Love and you know, as the title suggests that criticizes

783
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: sort of the careerest fame hungry artists who were driven

784
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: more by celebrity culture than by this authentic need to

785
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: to create um. And you also got the impression that

786
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: Resident is one of those people that believes that art

787
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: comes from pain, and I think that he resents people

788
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: that maybe looks like they're having sort of a better

789
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: time than he is doing it. Maybe, I don't know,

790
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: maybe if that plays a role in it. Two, Like

791
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: I picture him a sort of like again, scowling in

792
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: a dark studio as opposed to being on the red

793
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: carpet like Manson at the vim as. I think he was.

794
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, he was a decade into his career at

795
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: that point, and I think he had gotten maybe some

796
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: of that a lot of that decadence out of the system,

797
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: even though he was still not cleaned up at this point.

798
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: I think he actually ended up having an overdose like

799
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: on the Fragile tour, so like he wasn't totally cleaned

800
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: up himself, but I mean, I think he was in

801
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: a year's long process at that point of like slowly

802
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: sort of extricating himself from the rock star lifestyle, and

803
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: maybe once he got some distance from it. It just

804
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: seemed unseemly to him, and in a way, I think

805
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: Manson personified that in a way. I almost wonder if

806
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: you looked at Manson as being like his own sort

807
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: of dark it, you know, and this is this is

808
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: like the person I have to get away from, you know,

809
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: because it's like the worst part of myself. And he

810
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: tells him off in the song star Fuckers, Inc. And

811
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: it includes a nod to another legendary tell off song,

812
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: Carly Simon's You're So Vain. I bet you think the

813
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: song is about you. And Manson knew all too well

814
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: that the song was about him, but instead of sniping

815
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: back in the song or in the press, he had

816
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: a better idea and I love this. He called Trent

817
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: and basically said, you know what, I'm sick of people

818
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: asking if this song is about me. So I got

819
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: a really cool idea for a video that's gonna funk

820
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: with everybody. So Manson co directs the song's video and

821
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: even makes a cameo at the end, which is just

822
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: sort of like the big twist ending and everyone knows

823
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: this song is a distract to Manson, And at the

824
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: very end, it turns out that he's in on it,

825
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: and then he would join Nine Inch Nails on stage

826
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: at Madison Square Garden in the summer two thousand to

827
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: do it on the song together. And I think this

828
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: is kind of like possibly a rivals first, you know,

829
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: it's the best response to a distract. Ever, aside from

830
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: writing a better distract, it sucked with people. It got

831
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: Manson an extra dose of publicity, and it brought him

832
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: back with his friend, although temporarily. They would say at

833
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: the time in two thousand, like it was really good

834
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: to see each other again, and Resner would say, you know,

835
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: I reluctantly missed him. We were like brothers and I

836
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: couldn't even tell you what we fell out. It was

837
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: something to do with getting some fame and both of

838
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: us being out of our minds. But they were reunited

839
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: against a common shared enemy at this period. Uh, they

840
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: wanted to unite against Limp Biscuit and New Metal. I

841
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: think Manson was saying, you know, we shouldn't be competing.

842
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: There's much more terrible music that we should be united against.

843
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: And they they name dropped Limp Biscuit as one of them. Yeah,

844
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: you know, to me, this just uh, you know, points

845
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: to like the pro wrestler Carnival Barker side of Marilyn Manson.

846
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: You know that he could put aside his own ego

847
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: and hurt that Resiner would have written a song like

848
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: this about him and and and just recognize the promotional opportunities,

849
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: you know that like to actually get involved in this,

850
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: like to lean into you this depiction, rather than to

851
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: act offended. It was only going to play to his benefit.

852
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: Like you said, it makes him look like he has

853
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: a sense of humor about himself. Uh. And it was

854
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: just a great opportunity for publicity. So I think you know,

855
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: that is Manson's genius to me, He's willing to make

856
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: himself look like the clown if it's going to get

857
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: him a little extra attention. Now, what's interesting about this

858
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: is that there's still this issue lurking in the background

859
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: having to do with Marilyn Manson's Masters, you know, the

860
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: albums that he made when he was on Nothing Records. Uh.

861
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: There was that incident that we talked about earlier where Resiner,

862
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: you know, took a hammer to this hard drive and

863
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: at the time, I think uh, Manson believed that res

864
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: actually like destroyed the Masters that they wouldn't be able

865
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: to be retrieved. And and then many years later, like

866
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: once we get into the mid odds, you know, Manson

867
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: was thinking about I want to do an anniversary edition

868
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: of Antichrist Superstar and he reaches out that Nothing Records

869
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: to ask you know, for access to his answers, and

870
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: he's told that they're basically lost. They can't find any

871
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: of the original recordings for the first three albums. And

872
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 1: Manson is understandably crushed by this because not only does

873
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: he feel that this label has wronged him, and I

874
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: guess by this point, like Nothing Records didn't even exist.

875
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: I think it was shuttered in two thousand four. But

876
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: I think he looked at it as like almost like

877
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: an intentional betrayal on Restner's part, that like Resiner essentially

878
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: erased his artistic legacy and did it to hurt him,

879
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: and it was something that was like a huge deal

880
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: for him in the moment, and it really reignited this

881
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: feud at this point. It was either intentional or just

882
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: lack of caring. I mean, this was a guy's life's

883
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: work and it really broke his heart and he would say,

884
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what kind of people do

885
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: things like that. It's a racing history, it's erasing your

886
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: life's work, it's killing a part of you. Uh, And

887
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: so that really hurt Manson deeply, and they spent much

888
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: of the next ten years just sort of sniping at

889
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: one another in the press. I mean, Resner would say

890
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: in an interview he and I are two strong per

891
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: Sun allies that could co exist for a while, but

892
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: things changed, and then Manson fired back. I think fame

893
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: and power distort people's personalities, referring to Resiner. When Resiner

894
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: got off drugs in two thousand one, he used that

895
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: as another excuse to sort of put some distance between

896
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: the two of them. Resiner called Manson unhealthy to be around,

897
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: and he openly mocked his two thousand four cover of

898
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: Depeche Modes Personal Jesus. He said somebody, I guess on

899
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: one of his like fan forums, he was talking to

900
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: fans and somebody asked him if he'd ever want to

901
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: do a cover, and Resoner's response was, I was really

902
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: hoping to do something unique and pertinent, like do an

903
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: exact copy of Personal Jesus, but it was already taken

904
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: ship well. And I mean the quote that really stands

905
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: out to me is that interview Resiner did in two

906
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: thousand nine where he referred to Marilyn Manson as a

907
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: dope clown, uh, which you know, and I think he

908
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: meant dope, you know, in the figurative sense and also

909
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: a literal sense, because you know, he was making fun

910
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: of Manson for basically being this guy that was glamorizing

911
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: being on rugs and alcohol, you know, even now that

912
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: he was in middle age, which I think for Resner

913
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: this was something that was a particular sticking point because

914
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: he had to fight hard, I think for his own

915
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: sobriety and I don't know if he was embarrassed by

916
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: how he was in the nineties, but I think he

917
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: certainly felt like that's not something I need to relive

918
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: at this moment in my life. You know. He gave

919
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: an interview in twenty eleven where I think someone asked

920
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: him about whether he'd want to work with with Manson,

921
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: and you know, at first he was diplomatic. He said,

922
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: you know, Manson, he's a talented person, and he said,

923
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: we've had our problems. But he said, but I wear suits.

924
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm an adult now, you know, And that really underscores

925
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: this idea. It's like, Okay, it's almost like, you know,

926
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: like Manson was his college years, you know, it's like,

927
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: that's the guy I partied with when I was in college.

928
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: But like now I'm you know, I'm in my forties.

929
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: I'm not going to act like I did, you know,

930
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: back in my twenties. And it's always funny with me

931
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: because we've had this again. This is like another recurring

932
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: thing and our episodes that like when you have two

933
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: people who are rivals but they're also friends, you know,

934
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: like they started out as friends and then maybe they

935
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: have a falling out when they at each other publicly,

936
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: it's really mean, but there's always a ring of truth

937
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: to it. It's like you get the sense that the

938
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: rivals know each other better than anyone else knows them.

939
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: Because when Manson fires back at Resiner, he says, you know,

940
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: we I don't think we ever had a whole lot

941
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: in common. We had a certain sense of humor in common.

942
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: He was always more of the jock and I was

943
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: more of the burnout. And I think that seems to

944
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: be a shot at like what happened to Resoner in

945
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: the nineties and and beyond that, like he went from

946
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: being the skinny guy in leather pants to like being

947
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: like pretty muscular and jacked, which was kind of a

948
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: weird transformation I think for a lot of people, because

949
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: he didn't look like the outsider anymore, like by the

950
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: odds and beyond, like Restiner actually was like a pretty,

951
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: like handsome, even hunky guy, you know. He was like

952
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: a good shape rock sex symbol, yeah, exactly, which I

953
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: think is what Manson is referencing there. I mean, I

954
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: don't think it's fair to call Resinr like a sellout

955
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: or something like that, but there definitely was a transformation

956
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: like where he was more of a rock star, you know,

957
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: by the end of the nineties, and I think he

958
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: projected that kind of image moving forward. And something really

959
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: happened in the late two thousands and early two thousand tents.

960
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: I think Restler's career reputation and overall fame seemed to

961
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: shoot way past Manson's again, And I think it began

962
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: after Johnny Cash covered Hurt, which gave him this bonus

963
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: dose of cred as like a songwriter with a capital

964
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: S as opposed to like a nineties shock rocker, which

965
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: is what Manson's reputation to really rested on at this point,

966
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: and you know, he'd won an Oscar, which is, you know,

967
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: without question, the single most prestigious award in entertainment, UH

968
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: for his work on the two thousand tens Social Network soundtrack,

969
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: and his recording career also bounced back after the sort

970
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: of relative failure of the Fragile at two thousand threes

971
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: with Teeth, which had some really great radio friendly tracks

972
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: like the Hand That Feeds and only and every Day

973
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: It's exactly the same. So this is kind of when

974
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: when Trent sort of mounts his slow but steady come back. Yeah,

975
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: I mean, Resner ultimately became an artist who was not

976
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: defined just by one decade. I think Nineage Nails is

977
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: always going to be associated with the nineties, but like

978
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: Resner himself, he's done a lot of great things since

979
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: the nineties, and for a lot of people, they might

980
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: know him more for his film scores at this point

981
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: than they know him from closer in the nineties, whereas

982
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: Manson is always going to be fixed in that moment

983
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, like where he was the national

984
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: boogeyman and it was a very strong image in the

985
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: short run, but overall. Again, it goes back to the

986
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: horror movie franchise analogy I was making earlier that like

987
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: all horror movie franchises eventually turned into a campy joke

988
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: at some point. You know, like the first couple of

989
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: movies are scary, but once you get to the seventh

990
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: or eighth movie, you know people are going just to

991
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: laugh at it. And I think about that classic Onion

992
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: headline about Marilyn Manson, Marilyn Manson now going door to

993
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: door trying to shock people. I mean, that's such a

994
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: devastating own. I'm surprised that Manson still had a career

995
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: after that. He didn't just like wipe the makeup off

996
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: and go back to Ohio. I will say this, like

997
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 1: I interviewed Marilyn Manson in he put out a record

998
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: that year called The Pale Emperor, which I gotta say,

999
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: like for a late period Marilyn Manson record is like

1000
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: pretty solid. And I think around that time he had

1001
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: a song on the John Wick soundtrack, so he was

1002
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: kind of making like a mini comeback himself. And I

1003
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: have to say that, like, I think Manson is always

1004
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: going to be somewhat relevant with the music press because

1005
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: he's such a great interview. He's so good at like

1006
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: giving these quotes that I think are self aware but

1007
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: are also I think unintentionally hilarious in a lot of ways.

1008
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: Like one of my favorite quotes from our interview was

1009
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: he he was talking about his latest record, he said,

1010
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 1: there was a time when metaphorically, you sold your soul

1011
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: to become a rock star. I think that I stopped

1012
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: paying for a couple of years, or I didn't pay

1013
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: as much as I should have. This record was my

1014
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: payment to him saying check is through now, motherfucker, this

1015
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: is payment due plus interest. Like he can say this

1016
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: stuff with a straight face. I have to say too

1017
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: that like a lot of our interview, we just talked

1018
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: about the doors, you know, And I also, was you

1019
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: another indication of like where Manson is coming from. I mean, again,

1020
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: he's a ridiculous guy, but I'm glad he exists because

1021
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: there really aren't any other rock stars quite like him,

1022
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, even now, No absolutely, And you know it's

1023
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: heartwarming because in later years he and Trent did bury

1024
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: the hatchet. It came in a weird way and Manson

1025
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: was watching the HBO series of Defiant Ones, which is

1026
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: a portrait of the working relationship between Dr Dre and

1027
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: Jimmy Irvine, and the series included interviews with Manson and

1028
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: Trent and it made a nostalgic for their time working together.

1029
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: And uh, I guess around the same time, Marilyn Manson

1030
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: collaborator Tyler Bates cross paths with Trent Resident at a

1031
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: movie orchestration event, and he told Tyler that that he

1032
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: wanted to get back in touch with Manson, and they

1033
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: connected over email, and Trent told him that, you know,

1034
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: he still had his masters. They hadn't been destroyed with

1035
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: a hammer or intentionally lost or anything. So that really

1036
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: removed the primary road block in their relationship, and Manson's

1037
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: anger dissipated, and he'd say, I just had a pent

1038
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: up resentment because I thought he'd ruined my career, like

1039
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: the history of my career, like burning the Dead Sea

1040
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: scrolls or something. But any sort of past squabbles or

1041
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: arguments have just all went away when he learned that

1042
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: his work hadn't been destroyed. And I think for on

1043
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: Resiner's side, you know, I think he got over that

1044
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: period in his life where he was embarrassed by Manson

1045
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: and embarrassed by the decadence and the hedonism that he represented.

1046
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: And I think he came to appreciate what those two

1047
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: guys together signified in the mid nineties, because again, it's

1048
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: a it's a kind of rock star m that is

1049
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: totally extinct now, Like there's no rock star now that

1050
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: like people are picketing, you know, because they're afraid that

1051
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: they're going to corrupt the youth. I mean, there's no

1052
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: rock star that's famous enough to have that kind of impact.

1053
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: And there's this email I guess that he wrote to Manson,

1054
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: like where he he told him that he's like, look,

1055
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, I it pisses me off that no one's

1056
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: dangerous anymore, you know, And I like that, you know,

1057
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate what we brought to the music scene in

1058
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: the mid nineties because I really feel like it's gone,

1059
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 1: you know now. I guess it's like a heartwarming end

1060
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: into this story, Like you would not expect a heartwarming ending,

1061
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: but I feel like these two came to appreciate what

1062
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: the other guy brought to the table. We're gonna take

1063
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 1: a quick break to get a word from our sponsor

1064
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: before we get to more rivals. We've now reached the

1065
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: part of our episode where we give the pro side

1066
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: of each side of the rivalry, Let's talk about the

1067
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: pro Trent Resioner side first. I mean, I think this

1068
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: is like the pretty easy case to make, This is

1069
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: the obvious one to make. I really feel like Trent

1070
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: Resider is maybe the most singularly talented musician to come

1071
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: out of the alt rock era of the nineties. I mean,

1072
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: not just the fact that he can play so many

1073
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: different instruments or that he's like a really great songwriter.

1074
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: Obviously he had a great visual aesthetic, and he's also

1075
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: been able to transfer those talents to different kinds of music,

1076
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: and now you know, he's like one of the great

1077
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: film composers to be working in cinema. And the arc

1078
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: of his career and the fact that he was again

1079
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: able to make such a strong impression with nine inch

1080
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: Nails but also not be sort of contained by nine

1081
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: inch nails, not to be find just by what he did, uh,

1082
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: you know, twenty five years ago. It just seems like

1083
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: he's always been able to keep moving forward right really

1084
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: good music, and really he's like one of the only

1085
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: people from that era where if I hear Trent wrestlers

1086
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: putting out new music. I have an expectation that it

1087
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: could be the best thing that he ever did, you know,

1088
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: And I think that's a real testament to an artist

1089
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: that you know, if you're like thirty years into your

1090
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: career and people still think that you're capable of greatness, um,

1091
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: that really puts you up there, like with the great

1092
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: musicians of all time. Yeah, there's a subtlety and I'll

1093
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: use that term loosely to to his music that I

1094
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: think is definitely more suited to the long game than

1095
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: Manson sort of throw it in your face approach, just

1096
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: like the ambient work, like like Ghosts one through four.

1097
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: I thought that was an incredible album. And you know,

1098
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 1: I mean Trent seems to have the power position across

1099
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: the board, you know, longer, more sustained career, and then

1100
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: Manson may have maybe had higher commercial peaks in the

1101
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: late nineties and and certainly higher celebrity status. But Resident's

1102
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: career was a lot more consistent, and like you said,

1103
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: he achieved success outside of the realm of mainstream radio.

1104
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: Plus he was the guy who who signed Manson in

1105
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: the first place, and I think was at very least

1106
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: you'd say the co architect of his sound that a

1107
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: crucial partner's career. So I think without Resider, you don't

1108
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 1: have Manson, or at least the Manson that that we

1109
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: we know and love and sometimes fear so going over

1110
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: the Pearl Maryland Manson side. You know, I think it

1111
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: is fair to say that at his peak he was

1112
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: I think significantly more famous than Trent Resider. I think

1113
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: people knew nine inch Nails, obviously, but Manson had the

1114
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: kind of fame where even if you never watched MTV

1115
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: or you never bought any rock records at all, you

1116
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: knew who Manson was, and chances are already scared the

1117
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: hell out of you. And it is the kind of

1118
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: rock stardom that really doesn't exist anymore, and he might

1119
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: be the last version of that, which I think still

1120
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: makes him relevant in his own way. I don't think

1121
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: he's ever going to come close to being as famous

1122
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: as he was in the mid nineties, but I really

1123
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: think that every couple of years, Manson's gonna bubble up

1124
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: and give a round of interviews that is reminds people

1125
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: that he is like a great talker, and he's a

1126
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: great self promoter, and even if you aren't interested in

1127
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: his latest record, You're gonna want to like hear what

1128
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: he has to say because it's probably going to be entertaining.

1129
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I mean, I can't pretend to be the

1130
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: world's biggest Marila Manson fan, because I'm absolutely not. But yeah,

1131
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: I kind of love him. I love the mythology, I

1132
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: love the self conscious provocation. I love the pro wrestling

1133
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: level ridiculousness and just his flamboyant persona and the outrage.

1134
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: You know, God, bless the God of fun. I have

1135
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: to say now, when we look at these two guys together,

1136
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: I mean, look, if you believe that rock and roll

1137
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: or youth music in general should be dangerous, then you

1138
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: have to look at the peak of these two guys

1139
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: in the nineties as one of the great moments in rock.

1140
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to imagine parents getting upset about

1141
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: rock stars now, but back in the nineties, these guys

1142
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: ensured that music would be unsafe. So for that reason alone,

1143
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: I think again, even if you're not a fan of

1144
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: Manson or like you've outgrown nine Is sh Nails, it's

1145
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: hard not to look back on these two guys not

1146
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: with fear, but with affection. Yeah, I also think they

1147
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: were one of the best examples of the sort of

1148
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: student teacher relationship in Rock. Resiner helped hone Manson's craft

1149
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,720
Speaker 1: and helped him reach his creative heights. And then Resiner's

1150
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: sense of competition kicked in once Manson's success threatened to

1151
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: overshadow his own, and it pushed them to do consistently

1152
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: good work to keep up. And despite all the snorted

1153
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: bones and ketamine and explosives and broken glass and god

1154
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: knows what else, Trent and Manson were able to patch

1155
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: things up and stay friends. And like you said, I

1156
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: think that's a happier ending than any of us all

1157
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: coming for the story. So, Jordan, it's been a lot

1158
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 1: of fun talking about these two beautiful people. Beautiful people. Well,

1159
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,439
Speaker 1: I I was wondering the whole episode how we're gonna

1160
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: get one in. But but you above and beyond that's

1161
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: the most dramatic part of our episode. What terrible pun

1162
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 1: will be dropped at the end of the episode, Steven,

1163
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: If if you didn't, you know, I would have been hurt. Well,

1164
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: if you're still listening after those two terrible puns, I'm

1165
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: here to say so long, thank you for listening to

1166
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: our episode this week. We'll be back with more feuds

1167
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: and beefs and long swimming resentments next week. Rivals is

1168
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are

1169
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor

1170
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: Chicoine and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat.

1171
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you

1172
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.

1173
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: For more podcast for my heart Radio, visit the I

1174
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

1175
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,