Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that kind of surprised me is there was
Speaker 1: all that concern about commercial real estate and specifically office buildings,
Speaker 1: and instead we've seen it feels like we've seen more
Speaker 1: stress in the multifamily space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know, Like I'm
Speaker 2: still worried because I still see these numbers, at least
Speaker 2: an aggregate of vacancies not improving. And I sort of thought,
Speaker 2: you know, about six months ago there was another rash
Speaker 2: of headlines about companies calling workers back to the office.
Speaker 2: But I'm not sure if there's improvement. Like I'm still anxious.
Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable saying coast is clear yet.
Speaker 1: But what do I know? You're caveating yourself caveat I
Speaker 1: feel like that's what you're doing.
Speaker 2: I did a deadlift one.
Speaker 3: Okay, barges.
Speaker 2: This isn't after school special, except.
Speaker 1: I've decided I'm in a base my entire personality going
Speaker 1: forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US.
Speaker 2: Where's the best with imposta?
Speaker 1: These are the important question? Is that robots taking over
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: No, I think that, like in a couple of years,
Speaker 2: the AI will do a really good job of making
Speaker 2: the Odd Lonch podcast and people today, I don't really
Speaker 2: need to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore.
Speaker 1: We do have touching. You're listening to lots more where
Speaker 1: we catch up with friends about what's going on right now, because.
Speaker 2: Even when the Odd Lots is over, there's always lots more.
Speaker 1: And we really do have the perfect guest. So Rich,
Speaker 1: we had you on basically a year ago talking about
Speaker 1: where stress is in the massive market for commercial real estate.
Speaker 1: What have we seen since then?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, first of all, it sort of feels like
Speaker 3: dejean vous all over again. For me. There was a
Speaker 3: bunch of three bank failures this time last year. Right
Speaker 3: fast forward a year we didn't have any, and then
Speaker 3: suddenly we have another bank failure or another bank stress test,
Speaker 3: if you will, So look, maybe I'll start with office.
Speaker 3: I think I'm certainly tired of talking about office. I
Speaker 3: think most people understand that office valuations are down rather significantly.
Speaker 3: We think office valuations generically are down around thirty five
Speaker 3: percent or so, and peak to trough that'll probably be
Speaker 3: down closer to fifty percent. So I think most people
Speaker 3: understand that at this point, I do think there's still
Speaker 3: a little bit of debate and a little bit of
Speaker 3: misunderstandings about well, not all office is bad. New clean
Speaker 3: and green office even in New York city's doing exceptionally well.
Speaker 3: And then maybe some of the Sunbell office properties where
Speaker 3: you're seeing strong demographic shifts, those are working working as well.
Speaker 3: But are people willing to step their toes in? Probably not.
Speaker 3: I think they share share your views.
Speaker 1: They share Joe's tendency towards self cavitation. That's a word
Speaker 1: that I just came up with. We're speaking with Rich Hill.
Speaker 1: He is the head of real estate strategy and Research
Speaker 1: over at Cohen and Steers, formerly of Morgan Stanley, which
Speaker 1: is how I met you and read your research for
Speaker 1: a number of years. One thing I wanted to get
Speaker 1: your sense on. We have seen a rally in broad
Speaker 1: cre since sort of November December. How much of that
Speaker 1: is just echoing the expectation for rate cuts? And I
Speaker 1: feel like I feel like I should add a caveat here,
Speaker 1: which is that we're recording this on March twentieth, the
Speaker 1: day of the Fed interest rate decision, so who knows
Speaker 1: what will happen, but the expectation is still for cuts,
Speaker 1: So how much of that is feeding into the rally?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so maybe just a level set. The trough in
Speaker 3: listed rates listed real estate was October twenty fifth of
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. Since that time, listed reads are up
Speaker 3: more than twenty percent. November was one of the best
Speaker 3: months ever. December was pretty strong as well, top ten
Speaker 3: month ever. So you bring up a good question how
Speaker 3: much of this is just driven by rate cuts? So
Speaker 3: let me let me unpack that a little bit for you.
Speaker 3: And I think I'm going to be a little bit
Speaker 3: wonky here, but I think that's probably that's great. That's
Speaker 3: what we like. First and foremost listed reads do really
Speaker 3: well in the aftermath of the FED stopping hiking interest rates.
Speaker 3: Usually on the next twelve month basis, they put up
Speaker 3: double digit returns. So what we've seen happen is consistent
Speaker 3: with what we've seen happen with history. But I also
Speaker 3: think there's a few other things that are maybe not
Speaker 3: as well understood, where I would say this is not
Speaker 3: all about rate cuts, and I'll come back to that
Speaker 3: in a second. October twenty fifth marked the high for
Speaker 3: the tenure Treasury rate. It peaked a little bit above
Speaker 3: five percent. At that point in time, people were really
Speaker 3: concerned that the tenure Treasury rate was probably going to
Speaker 3: be closer to six percent than four percent. Fast forward,
Speaker 3: in the tenure treasury is now closer to four percent
Speaker 3: than six percent. So I think that took a lot
Speaker 3: of fear off the table. The second thing that we've
Speaker 3: seen is we've actually seen lending conditions not begin to loosen,
Speaker 3: because linding conditions are still tightening, but they're not tightening
Speaker 3: as much as they used to, and so that basically
Speaker 3: means linding conditions, the worst for lending conditions are behind us.
Speaker 3: The second erouder has started to improve. The third point
Speaker 3: I would make to you is that guess what in
Speaker 3: AY growth net operating income growth for real estate is
Speaker 3: holding up really, really well. It's actually one of the
Speaker 3: few sectors of the S and P five hundred where
Speaker 3: you're seeing revisions higher not lower. That's interesting, and there's
Speaker 3: a couple of reasons for that. But I think what
Speaker 3: I would ultimately say here is listed reads are leaning
Speaker 3: indicator in downturns and recoveries, and what I think we're
Speaker 3: starting to see is maybe some of the fear that
Speaker 3: was in the market was it was turning out to
Speaker 3: be not as bad as feared, and that's led to
Speaker 3: a rally.
Speaker 2: So it always helps, even if things are bad, if
Speaker 2: they're going to be less bad because that's helped.
Speaker 1: The direction of travel is good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the direction of travel is good, better than expectations
Speaker 2: all the worst not being priced in. One of the
Speaker 2: things that's come up in our past CRI episodes just
Speaker 2: this gap between where people think the market might be
Speaker 2: and where the market actually is, which we have a
Speaker 2: hard time knowing because there is just not a lot
Speaker 2: of transaction period. So you can have these models and
Speaker 2: you can have expectations or maybe price something off the
Speaker 2: one building that did move. Are we seeing on the
Speaker 2: non listed side, on the private side, are we seeing
Speaker 2: any sort of pickup in transaction activity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a super fascinating conversation that we're having right now,
Speaker 3: and I think it's the very most important question that
Speaker 3: people can be asking right now. Let me explain how
Speaker 3: the transition mechanism usually works in fire cycles, transaction volumes fall,
Speaker 3: they trough because when they're falling, there's a big spread
Speaker 3: between where sellers want to sell and our buyers want
Speaker 3: to buy. There's no transaction activity. Then as transaction volumes
Speaker 3: trough and begin to rise, property valuations begin to fall.
Speaker 3: Transaction property valuations begin to fall, and then about twelve
Speaker 3: months later, appraisal valuations follow. What we're seeing this cycle
Speaker 3: is dramatically different than that it's actually flipping on its head.
Speaker 3: Appraisals are actually leading transaction volumes significantly right now. You're right, transactions,
Speaker 3: there's very little transparency in the transaction market. I just
Speaker 3: got some updated numbers for February of twenty twenty four,
Speaker 3: and the number of transactions that sold it looks like
Speaker 3: it's back to COVID lows. So there is still a
Speaker 3: pretty big bid asque spread. But appraisals, appraisal valueuas we
Speaker 3: think are down generically around twenty percent right now peak
Speaker 3: to trough. We think they'll be down twenty five to
Speaker 3: thirty once everything goes through. But why are appraisal valuations
Speaker 3: leading right now? What has everything to do with higher
Speaker 3: interest rates and higher discount rates, and appraiser has no
Speaker 3: choice but to deal with that. So this cycle is
Speaker 3: a little bit different where transactions are just now beginning
Speaker 3: to catch up to where appraisals are so.
Speaker 1: We're talking about sales transactions. But the other thing that's
Speaker 1: happened in the market is you've had a lot of
Speaker 1: new financing. So call it what you will extend and
Speaker 1: pretend or amend and extend. There's different names, different pseudonyms
Speaker 1: for this activity, but that feels like it's one of
Speaker 1: the things that has really given the market a little
Speaker 1: bit of breathing room. So it's odd lots tradition to
Speaker 1: talk about the looming maturity wall, but the looming maturity
Speaker 1: wall is not so looming anymore. It's more of a
Speaker 1: three foot privacy shrub. I think I've joked before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you guys can see me on the podcast,
Speaker 3: I have a big smile on my face because this
Speaker 3: is one of my favorite topics. First of all, look,
Speaker 3: I push back on the idea of a maturity wall.
Speaker 3: Earlier in my career, I always talked about maturity walls
Speaker 3: because it gets a lot of clicks. But let's be clear.
Speaker 3: Commercial mortgages have a seven year wall that means fifteen
Speaker 3: percent of loans come due on average every single year,
Speaker 3: which means over a three year time period, you should
Speaker 3: expect forty five percent of loans to come due guess what,
Speaker 3: forty two percent of loans are coming due over the
Speaker 3: next three years. Not shocking at all, that's just sort
Speaker 3: of math. Is it great that they're coming due right
Speaker 3: now at this point of distress in the commercial real
Speaker 3: estate market. No, but that was inevitably going to happen
Speaker 3: at some point in the cycle. So that's point number one.
Speaker 3: Point number two is a statistic that's getting a ton
Speaker 3: of headlines right now that there's almost a trillion dollars
Speaker 3: of loans coming due in twenty twenty four. That is
Speaker 3: factually true. But this time last year there was only
Speaker 3: a little bit more than six hundred billion dollars of
Speaker 3: loans coming due in twenty twenty four. Like, you don't
Speaker 3: just make up four hundred billion dollars of loans. Why
Speaker 3: did that increase? Well, loan Behold, a lot of loans
Speaker 3: that were maturing in twenty twenty three were amenda and
Speaker 3: extended into twenty twenty four and beyond. Now, we actually
Speaker 3: think that same strategy is going to play out in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four as well. But what you're starting to
Speaker 3: see is this prisoner's limb are being solved. Borrowers are
Speaker 3: not in a good position lenders are not in a
Speaker 3: good position. They're sort of forced to work with each
Speaker 3: other right now. And I think your point about you know,
Speaker 3: call it what you will, modifications and extensions, what it's
Speaker 3: doing is that it's providing a little bit of a
Speaker 3: safety net for commercial real estate valuations, where whereby we
Speaker 3: think valuations are going to be down twenty five to
Speaker 3: thirty percent instead of like thirty five to forty like
Speaker 3: we saw during the GFC. And it's because this is
Speaker 3: a little bit more orderly process than what people feared
Speaker 3: a year ago.
Speaker 2: By the way, I just want to say Tracy that
Speaker 2: I'm really glad and thank you rich for saying that
Speaker 2: when you're on the cell side and getting clicks, because
Speaker 2: I've always had this intuition that journalists in cell side
Speaker 2: analysts are basically in the same job, and we sort
Speaker 2: of compete with each other for people's scarce attention. It's
Speaker 2: not that different. In fact, I would say, as I
Speaker 2: progressed in my journalism career, I felt I learned a
Speaker 2: lot from reading cell side research, both in terms of
Speaker 2: content but also in like, yeah, your job is, you know,
Speaker 2: people have a million emails and you want them to
Speaker 2: open yours instead of the next guys.
Speaker 1: So I feel no one will know your research is
Speaker 1: good if they don't read it.
Speaker 3: If they don't read it, yes, you got a in
Speaker 3: a northern around time is spent on titles, and oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I know they're getting really they've got they've gotten so good.
Speaker 2: If I own a building and it's one of these
Speaker 2: not on a B tier offices in New York City
Speaker 2: and I still have a bunch of empty units and
Speaker 2: the people who were my tenants aren't bringing their employees back,
Speaker 2: wish do I want? Do I want them to bring
Speaker 2: their employees back? Or do I want right cuts?
Speaker 3: You want rate cuts first and foremost, first and foremost.
Speaker 3: We had this debate internally at Colin Steers relatively recently.
Speaker 3: What are we rooting for? And I think everyone in
Speaker 3: there in the room said rate cuts. And so let's
Speaker 3: maybe explain what that means. Commercial real estates inherently elevered
Speaker 3: asset class. Yeah, very few people buy commercial real estate
Speaker 3: building and don't put debt on it, so the cost
Speaker 3: of financing actually really matters. I would much prefer right
Speaker 3: now a hard landing scenario, believe it or not, where
Speaker 3: real rates interest rates go much lower and grow slows
Speaker 3: and credit spreads widen than a no landing scenario, whereby
Speaker 3: rates sort of stay where they are in growth and
Speaker 3: credit spreads are just eh. I know, that's weird to
Speaker 3: get your arms.
Speaker 2: Rud No, I believe it, but it still blows my mind.
Speaker 3: It's inherently a level asset class. What matters more than
Speaker 3: anything else is the cost of financing.
Speaker 1: Wait, so, on that note, I want to go back
Speaker 1: to what we were talking about, the refinancing, the amend
Speaker 1: and extend dynamic that we've seen in the market. Who
Speaker 1: is refinancing? Is it the existing finance years Because as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, they basically don't want to take the marks
Speaker 1: on their portfolio or they don't want to have a
Speaker 1: catalyst that causes them to record that loss. Who's actually
Speaker 1: doing it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So let me first of all give you a
Speaker 3: stat that's I think really remarkable. If you looked at
Speaker 3: commercial mortgage backed securities, the loans that we're maturing in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, eighty percent of them paid off at
Speaker 3: or before their maturity date. Eighty percent. Now, some of
Speaker 3: them obviously paid off before their maturity date. You'll hear
Speaker 3: much lower statistic for loans that were still outstanding at
Speaker 3: their maturity date. But those loans still outstanding have inherent
Speaker 3: negative selection. If you didn't pay off your loan prior
Speaker 3: to the maturity date, there's probably something wrong with it.
Speaker 3: So let me answer your question directly though, and I'm
Speaker 3: going to focus on banks first and foremost. Why would
Speaker 3: a bank want to extend a loan, well, particularly.
Speaker 1: After March's banking drama and the expectation that there was
Speaker 1: going to be more pressure in terms of regulation.
Speaker 3: There's two reasons, well three reasons. First of all, they're
Speaker 3: not in the interest of owning properties. That's one number two.
Speaker 3: They actually don't want to sell a distress property into
Speaker 3: a distress market. But there's an even more important point
Speaker 3: here that I don't think people are focusing on the
Speaker 3: capital charges for modifying a loan at a new ninety
Speaker 3: percent LTV or actually lower than owning that property on
Speaker 3: your balance sheet. Oh, they're incentivized, assuming that they have
Speaker 3: appropriate reserves and the borrower has a plan, they're incentivized
Speaker 3: right now to actually extend that loan. I come back
Speaker 3: to the point I made previously. This is like classic
Speaker 3: prisoner's dilemma stuff. The barrower is not in a good spot,
Speaker 3: the lender doesn't want the property back. They're actually coming
Speaker 3: together and finding a solution. And I don't think this
Speaker 3: is necessarily to kick the can down the road like
Speaker 3: we've seen in the past. They're getting some pretty decent paydowns.
Speaker 3: They're actually not increasing their rate too much. It is
Speaker 3: a prisoner's dilemma.
Speaker 1: One thing I've come to realize in my own career
Speaker 1: as a financial journalist is that kicking the can down
Speaker 1: the road has all these terrible connotations, especially since two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, but actually it kind of worked right.
Speaker 1: We had a bunch of home loan modifications after two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, and you know, real estate recovered.
Speaker 2: I have come to the conclusion that all of human
Speaker 2: history is just a big hand ticket. We need to
Speaker 2: destigmatize that concept forever. We're just going to be kicking
Speaker 2: the can for thousands of years to come. Put it
Speaker 2: off to the next generation and they'll do the same.
Speaker 2: Your point about there's something wrong if you don't prepay
Speaker 2: your loan like this is because real estate investors are
Speaker 2: allergic to building up equity. The moment they have a
Speaker 2: little bit of equity in the building, they want to
Speaker 2: pull it out and buy the next building.
Speaker 3: That's that's that's not wrong. Yeah, it's constantly refinancing. And
Speaker 3: now some of this is because we've been a secular
Speaker 3: decline in ten your treasure eight since nineteen eighty. You
Speaker 3: could always refinance into a lower and lower and lower
Speaker 3: interest rate month after month after month.
Speaker 2: So someone I was talking to was explain to me,
Speaker 2: like some of the banking issues that we've seen with
Speaker 2: some of the community banks. Part of it, I mean,
Speaker 2: we hit did an episode on Newyor Community Bank and
Speaker 2: the issues that they've had in like the rent regulated
Speaker 2: multifamily area. But the part of it is that a
Speaker 2: lot of these banks just made a bunch of money
Speaker 2: on prepayment penalties. I don't know if they're called penalties,
Speaker 2: but those prepayment fees, and then the moment rates shot
Speaker 2: up shoot up for the first time in forty years,
Speaker 2: you just get that big slow down in Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, well, it's probably fairly nuanced, but when you
Speaker 3: prepay a fixed rate loan, you have a prepayment penalty
Speaker 3: which basically compensates the lender for the interest cost that
Speaker 3: they otherwise would have received over the life of the loan.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of different. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: different reasons. I mean, I think the real issue that
Speaker 3: the market's dealing with is a return to the old normal.
Speaker 3: I get asked all the time, what do you think
Speaker 3: about this new normal environment? It's not new normal environment.
Speaker 3: What was weird was the last ten years where interest
Speaker 3: rates were historically low, inflation was historically low. That created
Speaker 3: a lot of weird dynamics for the commercial real estate market.
Speaker 3: All the markets dealing with is a return to the
Speaker 3: old normal and what that does for valuations. Valuations being
Speaker 3: down twenty five to thirty percent. That's huge on a
Speaker 3: headline basis, but if you actually think about what it
Speaker 3: means in terms of how much valuations have increased over
Speaker 3: the past ten years, it's really nothing. This is just
Speaker 3: a deflating of the balloon that should occur from time
Speaker 3: to time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is where I have to say, like,
Speaker 1: even before the twenty twenty pandemic, there was talk about
Speaker 1: underwriting standards slipping in CRE and CMBs specifically, I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you one more thing. So one of the
Speaker 1: themes that comes up on all these cre episodes is
Speaker 1: this is not a monolithic asset class. So you obviously
Speaker 1: have office, multifamily retail. So you have that segmentation. But
Speaker 1: then even within those categories there's additional segmentation. So Joe
Speaker 1: mentioned the idea of a Class B office, you would
Speaker 1: also have fancy offices that are Class A. You might
Speaker 1: have a really nice shopping mall and then a zombie
Speaker 1: one that's going out of business. I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: in retail on shopping malls we heard recently in an
Speaker 1: episode we did with Tom McGee from the International Council
Speaker 1: of Shopping Centers, he would I was talking about there's
Speaker 1: sort of a revival of demand for shopping centers and
Speaker 1: that there's a structural lack of supply in certain types
Speaker 1: of shopping centers. Is that something that you've seen as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, we really like open air shopping centers, and
Speaker 3: we like them for a couple different reasons. First of all,
Speaker 3: we think institutional investors in private real estate are under
Speaker 3: index to them.
Speaker 1: Is that a result of like the shopping mall fears
Speaker 1: of the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're just redline. I mean, no one wanted to
Speaker 3: buy a retail property from twenty ten until twenty twenty
Speaker 3: because it was going through clickbait so called retail apocalypse.
Speaker 3: That's not a great environment. So you've actually seen institutional
Speaker 3: ownership of retail go down, while institutional ownership of multifamily
Speaker 3: industrial has risen significantly. But there's actually something really interesting
Speaker 3: that's happening. Two things in particular, no one was really
Speaker 3: dumb enough to buy to build a new retail property
Speaker 3: host the Great Financial Crisis because there was this big
Speaker 3: shakeout coming, so there's been no new supply of shopping centers.
Speaker 3: At the same time, you had this great Darwinistic event
Speaker 3: that happened in COVID where maybe I'm going to use
Speaker 3: to bold of retirement, but it killed all the stuff
Speaker 3: that wasn't you know, it was cuspy. So now you
Speaker 3: actually have an environment that's right size from a supply
Speaker 3: standpoint at a time that retailers e commerce companies have
Speaker 3: actually realized that they can do micro fulfillment through the
Speaker 3: retail stores. Consumer likes it. So you're actually seeing vacancies
Speaker 3: for things like neighborhood centers, community centers, power centers actually
Speaker 3: near historical lows. We haven't seen an environment like this before,
Speaker 3: so it's actually a really strong asset class that people
Speaker 3: aren't paying enough attention to.
Speaker 2: So I take this key point that Okay, there's been
Speaker 2: part of this story is that there's been this game
Speaker 2: theory cooperation from lenders and borrowers to avoid pain. I
Speaker 2: take this point that there are some in New York
Speaker 2: City even that there are prime offices that are doing
Speaker 2: very well, and that not you know, CIRI and even
Speaker 2: office is not a monolith. On the other hand, it
Speaker 2: does seem as though in many cities that there is
Speaker 2: still just a lot of empty square footage within buildings,
Speaker 2: and I don't think people know what is going to
Speaker 2: happen with it, or whether it's you know, where that's going.
Speaker 2: And there's still you know, obviously there are some fancy
Speaker 2: buildings in New York City, but there's a lot that's
Speaker 2: just done between every block where it's just old and
Speaker 2: shabby and you just see clearly not a lot of activity.
Speaker 2: What is happening with that? And of course in some cities,
Speaker 2: you know, there's this fear of the urban death spiral,
Speaker 2: which would be a very good headline for a research
Speaker 2: piece or for a clickbait piece. But I guess the
Speaker 2: retail apocalypse of the twenty tens has been replaced by
Speaker 2: the urban death spiral that you have people are coming
Speaker 2: back to work, that you have dropped the tax base,
Speaker 2: that the restaurants closed down and people don't want to
Speaker 2: come back to work, et cetera. And then you just
Speaker 2: have this sort of you know, like something out of
Speaker 2: a horror movie or a zombie movie. What are people
Speaker 2: saying about that these days?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the first point I would make is the
Speaker 3: professor I think. I think he went to a professor
Speaker 3: from NYU that coined the death spiral for New York
Speaker 3: City actually came back relatively recently and said, I was wrong.
Speaker 3: That's not playing out like the way I thought it was. Okay,
Speaker 3: So look, the cliche answer is you take all these
Speaker 3: dead dead, take all these underutilized office buildings and confront
Speaker 3: them a multifamily. Guess what, guys, That's easier said than
Speaker 3: done for a lot of different reasons. So I think
Speaker 3: the real answer is people don't know, and that's one
Speaker 3: of the reasons that people are unwilling to step into
Speaker 3: the office sector right now, even though valuations have come
Speaker 3: down a lot. What do I think. I actually think
Speaker 3: this is a once in a generation opportunity, once in
Speaker 3: a lifetime opportunity for public and private stakeholders. To come
Speaker 3: together and rethink how these cities should work. So it
Speaker 3: probably requires a master plan where you actually redevelop all
Speaker 3: of these into I hate to say work, live, play,
Speaker 3: but there's a real opportunity to do that. And so
Speaker 3: could you imagine like walking down New York City where
Speaker 3: it used to be all these Class B office buildings
Speaker 3: that no one really wanted to work in, and now
Speaker 3: suddenly it's like vibrant parks, it's restaurants. Well, I think
Speaker 3: that's going to solve the world's problems apparently.
Speaker 1: Cos I think New York should let us redesign the city.
Speaker 2: I'm done. By the way, Tracy, the NYU professor the
Speaker 2: Rich mentioned, I'm pretty sure Arbat Gupta, who who has
Speaker 2: been to our odd lotch trivia event, we really need
Speaker 2: to have him on the show because he was talking
Speaker 2: about the urban doom loop. So there's a message to
Speaker 2: us basically that we really got to book the ARPIT episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.
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