WEBVTT - Gavin DeGraw 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.800 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.920 Studio on I Heart Radio. My name is Jordan runs Ug, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.680 but enough about me, my guests today. Recently released Face 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.280 the River or remarkable new record that follows in the 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.360 tradition of great musical storytellers like Bruce Springsteen, Billie Joel, 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.040 and Bob Seeger. And like the best storytellers, he draws 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.480 on moments from his own life both as a way 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.280 to heal and is a way to connect. Face the 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.520 River marks the recent passing of his parents, the figures 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.800 who nurtured him emotionally and musically, whom he refers to 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.519 as his heroes. The double loss changed him forever, and 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.600 this new record finds him coming to terms with the 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.760 grief and the resulting growth. Though born out of this sadness, 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.440 it's a record that lifts and inspires, a triumphant reminder 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.360 that we get stronger in all the broken places. I'm 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:58.680 so happy to welcome Gavin to grow This album Good Lord, 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.760 I is just so powerful. I I love it so 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.800 much as somebody who's lost a parent at a young 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.399 age myself. I it hits me in all sorts of 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.280 other ways. I mean, obviously, these songs. We'll touch everybody, 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.120 but I think for people who who have gone through 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.440 that particular loss, I think it's there's a little something 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.040 extra in there, and I want to thank you for that. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.480 I want to thank you for for for going to 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:26.080 that place and giving us that. Wow. Man, wow man, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.440 thank thank you. Man. I'm sorry, You're sorry. You're part 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.360 of this club we never wanted to join. Right, so 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:37.000 uh the uh the the uh the lost the lost club. Right, 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.120 but man, I I appreciate you a you um allowing 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.400 the music to speak to you. And I'm like annulences. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.920 I know I know exactly where you're at, man, um, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.400 but uh but I think that uh, in general, we 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.880 just have to uh, we just gotta keep going, right 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.600 So this this, this is the this is just this 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:02.000 is just life cycle stuff. And um, we're all we're 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.600 all going to have our have our number called one day, 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.440 um and uh, you just gotta keep going till then 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.359 that's it. I just think it's so inspiring that at 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.680 these moments, when you know your hardest moments, you can 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.079 make something as beautiful as this album. I just think 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.840 it's absolutely stunning. The songs are beautiful, the stories are beautiful. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.799 I mean just congratulations. It's it's such an incredible piece 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.880 of work that it means a lot. Thank you for 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.359 a compliment, thank you. I know this is obviously a 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.440 very different kind of record for you in a lot 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:33.320 of ways, as well as being a really personal one. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.040 And I mean I think it shows off just the 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.440 full extent of your talents as a singer and as 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.360 a songwriter. Uh. Full circle is the phrase that keeps 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.359 coming up when you're talking about this record. He was 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.560 the name of your tour for it, and it comes 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.240 up a lot when you're talking about Face the River. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.120 I want to ask you about full circle? What that 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.360 what that means to you? Well, Um, when I first 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:59.000 paid my father the first couple of songs of the album, uh, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:04.520 he said to full circle. And I, uh so, what 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.280 do you mean? He said? He said was he was 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.760 saying that it was the way he remembered me, you know, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.760 before I ever got signed, before I started you know, 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:22.000 making albums, you know, making these produced, produced records, and 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:27.800 that he remembers the music sounding more like more like 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.919 this when you know, when I was out playing live 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.280 and playing with pickup bands, and you know, and uh, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.600 you know, sitting there with people and and and going 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.600 through that phase of my my life and and and career, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.760 trying to just get your name out there. Just the 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:50.480 live sound and UH, I think Dave Coperty captured this 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:56.960 UM live sound and enhanced it and just just made 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.400 it so much better and kept it off then they can. 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.360 In fact, I feel like he reached deeper and forced 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.520 me to reach deeper. UM. Then I would have arrived 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:13.320 at UM without his his influence and his input, UM, 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:18.200 his taste UM. And so the full circle thing was 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:23.120 was yet initially the comment my father made and then 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.400 UM and that in my opinion, is because Dave Cobb 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.680 had had really great taste and really authentic taste in 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.720 music and loose those almost those those seventies singer songwriter 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.600 type records. Uh, you know, those singer songwriter records, those 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.919 those rock records, but that nineteen seventies approach to sound 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.760 and UH and performance and UH. Also when we went 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.000 out and did our our little UH tour run that 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.240 we did for playing the music live, we decided we're gonna, 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.680 you know, go back and play a bunch of small 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:04.479 club and that that was really about getting back to 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:11.520 again that initial feeling of of performing live and small 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.600 venues that weren't necessarily the places that just had developed 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.839 acts playing at them. So it was important to me 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.279 to go back, in particular to play a place called 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.440 a Bit of Rent here in New York City. Um, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.039 because the Bit of Rent was the first place that 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.160 ever gave me a gig in New York City, you know, 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:32.800 before I ever got signed. And they were always good 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.479 to me, you know, And and UM, I wanted to 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:41.159 go back there and particularly reward those those smaller venues 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.560 that got really badly hurt during COVID that really could 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.960 use the business, you know, um, and and have keep 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.760 those relationships going because you know, loyalty is a big deal. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.440 And you know, you never forget who your friends are. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.800 Those are people who had your back when nobody you know, 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.599 gave a damn a value. And uh, you know, the 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.560 Bitter End is just one of those great places, the 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.120 Bitter End, the Red Lion. Um, there's places on Bleaker 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.600 and I want to keep those and yeah, and just 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.479 keep those places in Greenwich Village alive that have always 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:16.560 been a staple for live musicians like myself. There's there's 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.200 thousands of thousands of us and and those places are 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.919 home for for people like like me. There's there's great 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.080 talent out there that I always admired them. Maybe some 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.400 of them, you know, don't have a record deal, or 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.960 didn't get a record deal, or didn't didn't get lucky 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.640 here and there. Um, but there's still great talent. And 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.479 those are the houses that embraced that town, and I 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.240 want to keep those a lot. God bless you. They've 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.560 spent a lot of happy nights in both those places. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:51.720 You mentioned The Red Lion, the Bitters. Man, Absolutely, I 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.560 think I mean you mentioned the sounds on this record. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.880 I mean it just it sounds. It's so unique and classic. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:06:59.920 I mean one of my favorite tracks is Chasing Way, 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:01.720 in which to me, it's got a little bit about 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.240 like the band doing their muscle shoals, sound like going 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.960 down the Fame studios. It's so great, man, I love 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.800 just the classic sounds on this record. Wow. Man, that's 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.960 a huge compliment. Actually, uh, I had the bulk of 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.880 Chasing went finished and I wasn't sure how to start it. 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:27.880 And although it might be a cool deviation from the 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.120 the kind of the way the way the song sits, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:39.440 you know that brink D D D right, the way 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.680 the verse comes in. I thought a nice kind of 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:48.640 push against that would be that little into ding ding 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.679 ding ding ding ding ding ding. And I it's funny 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.360 you mentioned the band I was thinking about UH. I 0:07:55.400 --> 0:08:03.520 was channeling Cripple Creek when I when they exactly, I 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.640 was exactly channeling Cripple Creek, thinking something along the lines 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.360 of Cryptical Creek would be a good lead into UH. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.480 To Chason Winn and it's it's funny you mentioned it 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.200 because it's exactly what I was thinking about. Killer. You 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.760 get it. You totally get it. You're recorded this most 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:23.800 of it, or if not all of it in our 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.160 c A studio A, which is I mean, that's that's 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.559 the house the chet Atkins built. It's got everybody, Leon Russell, Lynn, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.760 Dolly Parton, Waylon Jennings. What was it like working in there? 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.760 I mean's just the energy in that space must have 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:40.680 been off the charts with Dave legendary, Oh yeah, man, 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:45.920 I mean legendary room. And I felt like I feel 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.440 like Dave knew every nook and cranny of that room, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.240 like you knew every sonic characteristic of that room, you know, 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.840 and had all of the gear to suit each space 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:06.280 when required, and um, yeah, you couldn't feel the ghosts, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.520 you know, the presence of of the many years of 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:17.600 acquired mojo that occurred in the room of live bands 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:25.040 playing together and and recording together. And it just felt right. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:30.120 And you know that place was built back when like 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.320 the labels were dumping money into creating spaces like that, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.440 into creating great sounding room you could record in orchestra 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.680 in that place, you know, so you know, being able 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.920 to go into a comfortable place like that that sounded 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:47.920 good everywhere and had enough space in it that we 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.120 could separate but be together and play together and make 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:57.440 eye contact, you know, and and read read each other 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.079 and be like, you know, like I got I got 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.319 this part right here, and you know you heard some 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.280 of my God, and you're like, I'm going, yeah, yeah, okay, 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.240 me right here, you know, and um, you had those 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:16.320 great um communicative moments because you were you're able to 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.240 have sight lines and be within the acoustic parameter of 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.120 what's coming out of the instrument. You know, that's that 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.439 that's there too, you know, it's not just headset. You're like, oh, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.360 it's right there. I hear it, I feel it, I 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.600 feel it in the I feel it coming through my heel, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.040 you know. And there's a great sensation when when you 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.480 get to uh, when you get to play like that, 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.760 and then you just keep the best takes. And Dave 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.440 had a really great sensibility of you know, casting the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:52.640 right players and and and just a great sensitivity to 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:57.560 which takes for the best, and you know about like, yo, man, 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:02.360 this is cool, that's cool. But those two other songs 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.120 you played me, they're too close to these two other songs. Here, 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.360 what else do you have? Let's go through your catalog 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.400 and stuff and see what else you have that is 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.240 different than what we already cut, so that the album 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:20.200 has real variety sonically. And by him doing that, it 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:24.760 also forced me to finish up songs I hadn't finished that, 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.520 and by finishing them during that time frame made the 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.800 lyrics more present to my life in that moment as well, 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.640 you know, by him saying, hey, has that done? Is 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.839 that that idea? I like? Is it finished? No? It's 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.520 not finished. When can you have it done? I could 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.280 have it done in an hour from now. I could 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.520 have it done tomorrow. Cool, finish it up, man, Let's 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.719 hear where you're you're at. Come in and play it 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.600 and uh and then we cut and I just feel 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:58.160 like it created a really um present approach to the album, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.720 feeling cohesive in some ways and at the same time 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:07.440 allowed the album to be varied stylistically because his taste 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:12.440 is excellent and and and he's got colectic taste. But 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:17.760 he was also looking for helping me find uh, a 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.080 sound that that that would allow it to feel like 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.599 a complete work, a complete album, you know, in a 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.839 in a you know, in a culture that isn't really 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:33.760 necessarily embracing for albums anymore, right, But I think that's 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.240 part of one of that's part of Dave's strong suit 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.560 is he's such a music purist. He has such good taste, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.959 and he also knows that, you know, we're making music 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.720 for an audience that's also grown up with me. They're 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.400 not just kids anymore right now. They're you know, now 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.960 their parents, now they have kids, and there were were 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.560 in these different stages of our lives now than when 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.280 they first may emerge a song of mine, you know, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.120 like on your first hit back in maybe two thousand 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.000 three or four. You know, life, life change, the world change, 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.560 and your music can change to reflect where you're at 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.640 in your life now, right, Um. And and he really 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.360 allowed me to He allowed me and helped me get 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.360 to a place where I could embrace those changes and 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:39.960 um and speak my my mind and my my my 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.840 current mindset. And it was really really really uh thoughtful 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.600 and and and he was sensitive about it, which was cool. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.600 And he wasn't afraid to challenge me, which is good. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.400 You know, it's always good to be around people who 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.200 who who can challenge you, you know, and you know, 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.720 and it's better for your ego to be people who 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.280 can challenge you and you know, and tell you that 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.360 you're wrong and for you to go you got me, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:16.240 you know, they know you're Yeah, that's exactly right, man. 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.600 And uh, it was all really a good, strong process 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.320 that you know. And at this point in my life, 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.760 I don't want to make children's music or music that's 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.720 necessarily market to kids. You know, the kids can grow 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.720 up and you know and become adults and listen to 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:40.000 music that speaks to someone who's actually you know, lived. Um. 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.400 You know, there's always music out there for children that's great, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.520 but you know, this is this is music for people 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.720 who have lived. Mm hmm. That's a beautiful way to 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.200 put it. I mean some of these songs, I they 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.080 sound like they could be fifty years old, and I 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.160 mean that is the highest compliment. I mean, you know, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.040 Destiny sounds like something that could have been on Talking Book, 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.440 or you know, it's a descendant of I Shall Be 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.120 Released or something. It's I mean, it's incredible just the 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.840 quality of these songs, and thank you for that. Thinks 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.800 that the blow me away. I mean, obviously these songs 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.240 are so personal and there's so much bravery in that. 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.440 I mean, the things that blows me away about these songs, 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.680 like the best story songs like the Billy Joels and 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.680 the Springsteens and the Bob Seekers, is that they're so 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.320 specific and so uniquely personal to you. Yet they hit 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:31.960 me and so many others in such a personal way. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.720 I think that's such a delicate line to hit. How 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.920 was there ever a fear of being this this open 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.120 and this vulnerable when you were working on this? I mean, 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.960 it's it's funny you say it for a couple of reasons. 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.120 One is there's a great irony in it, and that 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:50.600 I was telling a buddy mine the other day I said, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.960 the irony all this is that I wrote the songs 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.160 so so I wouldn't have to talk about it because 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.920 I couldn't talk about it, you know. And I feel 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.680 like the songwriting was a way too say the things 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:15.040 I wasn't able to say, uh in conversation. And so 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.760 the therapy for me was writing songs UM, which is 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.360 often therapy for me and just in life. So I 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:28.680 always been therapy for me UM. And so that's one 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.560 of the great ironies of it is is that the 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.240 songwriting took place because I wasn't having an easy time 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.680 talking about how I felt. I still don't have an 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:44.440 easy time talking about how I feel UM, because part 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.640 of it is because your emotions are such a crazy 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.800 range of emotions, seemingly by the you know, by the moment. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.800 You know, it's just so much stuff that life is, 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.360 so you know, some of it's just man, it said, 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.760 oh man, this hurts me right now. I missed them, 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.000 you know, I miss these people. I missed my parents. 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.399 And then there's very my dad did this. You know, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.199 you're laughing about it, and nobody gets the joke, but 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.760 you do. You know that you know, someone says something 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.720 at dinner and you make a face and you think 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.359 to yourself, Wow, that's weird. I just made the face 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.840 my dad used to make. I've never made that or 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:25.800 you know, it happened to me yesterday. I made a 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.240 face at dinner and I thought, oh my god, I 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.440 just made the face my dad used to make. I've 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.720 never felt the desire to do that. Always thought it 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.720 was weird when he did that, particular based on just 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:39.800 I know, I just made that face. You know. You 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.320 know what I mean, don't you. I'm I'm looking back 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.960 at my face and zoom right now actually and having 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:49.320 a similar moment somebody else's face coming back at me. 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.120 So I totally hear you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and um. 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.320 And it's one of those things. And some of those 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.879 things are it's just they make their way into your songs. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.960 One of the other things that happened with the making 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.240 of the album was, you know, the my initial meeting 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.720 with Dave Um. You know, he took a lunch meeting 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.840 with me. He's like, I really like what he did 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.119 um with that Paul McCartney cover. Maybe I'm a base 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.160 because I love the cover that song thinks a perfect song, 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.600 and and I think maybe that that could have been 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.120 why he took the project. You know, maybe he saw 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.000 the live thing and and thought, okay, cool, this guy's 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.200 all right, you know. Um. And we talked about that 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.119 and that kind of music, that kind of song, that 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.840 kind of records. And then we talked about are the 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.639 records that we loved, and you know old you know, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.680 the stack stuff, you know, the classic R and B stuff, 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.600 the great old soul stuff, you know, Duck Dunne and 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:03.240 Steve Cropper, but um, so that kind of stuff, and 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.000 then classic country records and great old songwriter records. And 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.720 you know, I'm a big odist reading Sam Cook fan. 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.280 You know, I'm a big you know, George Jones fan. Uh, 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:20.560 you know, I like those kinds of singers, imperfect singers, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.399 because that's where the feeling, the feeling is there, you know, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:29.359 um and imperfect records. And he asked me, what do 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.040 you want to do? I say, well, it's the world 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.600 is you know, I said, the world's all fucked up. Man. 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:38.760 It was right at the hide of COVID. I said, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:44.280 the world's fucked up. My life is fucked up. I'm 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:49.639 sucked up. Things are all sucked up everywhere around me. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.040 And I have a lot to say. And you know, 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.520 I've written a bunch of songs, and I want to 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.920 write this record alone. I wrote my first few record 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.240 it along, but I really have a lot to say. 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:03.920 I feel like I need to write this one along. 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:05.720 I feel like I need to get this out of me. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.080 And I just feel like it's also personal. I have 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.520 to do it that way. But I feel like you're 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.280 the greatest producer in the world, specifically for this kind 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:21.120 of record. And he was like, fuck, yeah, man, let's 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.760 do it. And and we went in the room and 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:32.680 he really he really permitted me to stretch beyond what 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:37.640 I would have, you know, like like the greatest production experience, 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:45.960 so sensitive, so sensitive to what I was doing, and um, 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.720 but not at all yes man about it. He really 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.120 wanted me to reach man. And it was a beautiful thing. 0:20:54.400 --> 0:21:00.199 It was a beautiful thing. Um. And he you know, man, 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.480 I remember it. I was writing the song um Face 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:11.400 the River, and um, I wasn't finished yet. So he said, yeah, man, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.440 let me know when you're done. I said okay, and 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:20.240 I finally finished it. I walked into into the room 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.280 by saying, man, um, I'm done. He's like finished. I 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.840 was like, yeah, I'm done. Now it's done, alright. That cool, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.239 come on, let's go played first man played for us, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.440 I said, okay. We walked out to the PM and 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:40.040 I played him. You know, I am tired of the waiting. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.879 Got to the end of the song and goes, why man, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:52.480 you go let it's like a masterpiece. I said what. 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:58.920 He goes, you were a masterpiece, You're a masterpiece. I 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:03.400 was like, I did. He was like, yeah, man, mastarpiece, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.240 let's cut it. Let's cut it, you know. And it 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.840 was just like immediately, you know, he wanted to cut 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.320 it immediately, which is one of the things I loved, 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:12.879 Like as soon as he heard it, as soon as 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:15.680 he felt it, and it was in the moment he 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.400 wanted to cut it. It wasn't let's make a plan, 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:23.440 let's uh blah blah blah, let's set a click, let's 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.760 find it. There was none of that bullshit. You know. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.840 One of the first things that happened in the studio, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.720 I think it was on Johnny Song Johnny Songs, the 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:39.000 first on Freedom, first song that we cut. I'm sitting 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.520 at the piano and I want it goes like this, 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.960 goes like this, And before he said did anything, I said, so, 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.520 do you want to set a click. He was like, no, no, 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:57.800 let's play and I said, my man, I said, my man, exactly. 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.639 I knew it was the right of guys, especially when 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.400 he said no click, because I don't want to play 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:09.000 to a click. Music is supposed to move, man, it's 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.400 supposed to be varied. All those great records we love, 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.520 you know, they don't know in on the exact same 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:24.040 bpm they move. You know, that's stuff, all that bpm 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.480 stuff being shared right there. That's not for the music 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:32.600 to be better, that's for the editing to be easier. Yeah, 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.760 that's got nothing to do with music. And so we 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:41.520 got to really we got to play music at and 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.960 I felt like I had been freed because musically we 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:51.160 got to go outside the fence. And that's what made 0:23:51.200 --> 0:24:08.800 it cool. Is there a supernatural element that goes into 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:14.280 making music? That's why is you're concerned. I honestly think 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:22.440 that there's uh things that we can't control. And you 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.440 may have your craft and that's very special, right. We 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:28.960 all know that there's a there's a almost like a 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.719 thing that has nothing to do with you that you channel. 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:35.120 Sometimes you get lucky you have a piece of an idea, 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:36.920 Like I didn't do that it just kind of came 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.040 to me. And then there's a craft element of it, 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:44.160 which is the carpenter part of it, which is creating 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:47.600 the right structure around the song, working through a line 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:52.200 here and there and whatnot. But then there's the other thing, 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:58.680 and the other really special thing is you go and 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:04.399 you get in the room and you play it. And 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:07.800 once you play it, particularly when you play it together. 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.520 It was it was I think it was Joe Walsh 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:19.760 talking about where the mojo is, saying, it's not one 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.919 guy playing that makes the mojo, you know, the way 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:24.720 a lot of albums are made now, A lot of 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:28.600 songs are cut now, it's one guy with his laptop 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:35.000 programming his drumps, and then he's programming the baseline and 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:38.879 then the guitar parts, and the he's singing, and then 0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:42.720 he's doing the synth section, and then he's auto tuning everything. 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:49.199 It's on that bpm metronome gridd and you're looking at 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:52.320 the music instead of hearing it. Right, it's going to click. 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:58.439 Are staring at music, that's it, and the people are 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.720 lining things up to hit the line with the beats 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:02.080