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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mob Never told you. From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and we are talking about cosplay today

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Speaker 1: because it's the season of the con. Well, it might

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Speaker 1: be a little past the season of the con, but

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Speaker 1: there are still some cons happening. There's still some cons happening,

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Speaker 1: namely a dragon Con here in Atlanta on Labor Day weekend. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and as of when we are recording this episode, Comic

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Speaker 1: Con just wrapped up. So there's been lots of news

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Speaker 1: in our world of the past as the super podcast

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Speaker 1: is coming out now about cosplay and particularly women in cosplay. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so what is it real quick? Obviously, it's a mash

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Speaker 1: up of costume and play, particularly dressing up like a

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Speaker 1: sci fi superhero, comic book, video game character, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And cosplaying can range from just wearing a mask, even

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Speaker 1: though I have a feeling if you show up at

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Speaker 1: dragon Con and just the mask and jeans that is

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Speaker 1: not going to cut it, to actually becoming a character.

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Speaker 1: And it's almost a form of performance art at that point,

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Speaker 1: because not only do you wear a costume and makeup

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Speaker 1: and wigs and all sorts of things, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of people tend to embody fully, embody whoever it is

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Speaker 1: they're dressed up as. Yeah, and it it sort of

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Speaker 1: becomes your cultural capital when you go to these conferences

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Speaker 1: as far as your accuracy, the accuracy of everything from

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Speaker 1: your hat to your makeup, to the clothes you're wearing,

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Speaker 1: to the shoes you're wearing. I have a friend who

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Speaker 1: goes to dragon Con every year and loves to dress

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Speaker 1: up for it. And she's typically a character out of

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Speaker 1: Star Wars and not somebody like Leia or Han Solo,

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Speaker 1: not like a main character, but usually one of like

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Speaker 1: the pilots, the types of pilots. And I remember being

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Speaker 1: so impressed at how accurate it I thought her costume was.

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Speaker 1: But she got some major flak when she went to

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Speaker 1: dragon Con because there was like a single piece of

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Speaker 1: her costume that wasn't completely accurate. Yeah, accuracy is highly

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Speaker 1: valued and stuff you missed in history class. Fans are

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Speaker 1: probably well aware that Host Holly is an incredible costume

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Speaker 1: designer on top of being an incredible podcaster, and the

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Speaker 1: creations that she makes for dragon Con are downright incredible

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Speaker 1: and take months to make because it's all about those details. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I know. I have another friend who she'll kill me

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Speaker 1: if she hears me saying this. That she has two jobs,

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Speaker 1: and one of her job is working at a fabric

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Speaker 1: store crafting and fabric store. And part of the reason

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Speaker 1: why she works there is she gets some pretty good

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Speaker 1: deals to make some costume make some incredible costumes. She's

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Speaker 1: an incredible seamstress and can whip up these amazing costumes.

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Speaker 1: And I just I admire the time and dedication that

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Speaker 1: goes into that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, the history

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Speaker 1: of cosplay is pretty fascinating as well, and involves a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention to detail and time intensive costumes. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And while a lot of times people seem to think

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Speaker 1: that cosplay just originated in Japan and was imported to

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Speaker 1: the US, in fact, it has a pretty rich history

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Speaker 1: in the US goes all the way back to nine

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Speaker 1: nine when sci fi fan Forest Jay Ackerman attended the

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Speaker 1: first ever World Science Fiction Convention a k a. World

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Speaker 1: Con and dressed in a quote futuristic costume all one

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Speaker 1: word yeah, And he was pretty much, along with his

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Speaker 1: friend Myrtle Jones, the first to do so. Um So,

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Speaker 1: I just want our cosplaying and con going friends out

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Speaker 1: there to close your eyes and imagine a con where

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Speaker 1: no one is dressed up, and that you're the weirdo

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Speaker 1: if you do show up dressed up. And so Myrtle,

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Speaker 1: his friend, Myrtle wore a gown to accompany him, based

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Speaker 1: on one from the nineteen thirty three film Things to Come,

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Speaker 1: and these kids really got into character. They walked around

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Speaker 1: looking like a pair of superheroes speaking Esperanto to each

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Speaker 1: other and I was like, what speaking what? It's actually

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Speaker 1: a language that was constructed in modern history to be

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Speaker 1: politically neutral. I am showing my ignorance here. I had

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Speaker 1: literally never heard of Esperanto. I have seen the one

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Speaker 1: feature film shot in complete Esperanto, and it stars William Shatner.

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Speaker 1: Was very strange. It's also in black and white, so

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Speaker 1: if you ever want, if you ever if you love

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Speaker 1: William Shatner, you should watch it. Well. So the following year,

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Speaker 1: World Con holds its first mas gade ball, So obviously

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Speaker 1: Ackerman and Jones were doing something right. And then sixteen

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Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen fifty six, Ackerman returns to World

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Speaker 1: count were word on it and notes how common costumes

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Speaker 1: have become. I'm assuming he felt like like the o

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Speaker 1: G cost player, like, oh, look at all these beons

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Speaker 1: during this Now he had to have. Although I feel

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Speaker 1: like Ackerman always gets the cred but wasn't it Myrtle

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Speaker 1: Jones who made his costume? I mean, like obviously gets

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Speaker 1: credit for wearing it, but I'm pretty sure that it

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Speaker 1: was Jones who constructed his costume, which sort of looked

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Speaker 1: like a nineteen what you would think of as a

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties spaceman. It was like a like trousers and

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Speaker 1: a top with pointy shoulder pieces. It wasn't it didn't

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Speaker 1: look crazy elaborate, but that might be because it was

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Speaker 1: a black and white photographs and also well, also, we're

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Speaker 1: so used to costumes. Now, this is true, Dragon Con

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Speaker 1: has spoiled us, Caroline, it has, indeed. But so you know,

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Speaker 1: from the sixties on where we start to see fans

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Speaker 1: spending a lot more time, money, and effort creating their

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Speaker 1: costumes to attend these cons. And then in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: we get the first comic con taking place in San Diego.

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Speaker 1: Only three people attended and costuming was not really a

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Speaker 1: big part of it. And then in seventy five it

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Speaker 1: becomes clear that even though costuming wasn't huge at comic

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Speaker 1: con at the time, there was a German newspaper that

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Speaker 1: published an article on sci fi conventions as quote largely

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Speaker 1: devoted to costume dances, partties and mutual flattery. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like a lot of fun, but I think the costume

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Speaker 1: dances at the time were often still just more along

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Speaker 1: the lines of a traditional masquerade. Yeah. Well so five

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Speaker 1: years later, nineteen eighty, if we look to Japan, the

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Speaker 1: manga series Uras Yet Sarah is released, Sorry if I

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Speaker 1: butchered that, um, and, along with the nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 1: series Mobile Suit Gundam, it helped jump start cosplay in Japan,

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Speaker 1: although it wasn't called cosplay yet. Um. That wasn't until

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Speaker 1: Night four when Japanese reporters LA manga publisher Takahashi Nobiyuki

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Speaker 1: was the first to use the word cosplay after attending

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Speaker 1: World Con in Los Angeles. Yeah, so the development of

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Speaker 1: cosplay is actually the result of this sort of back

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Speaker 1: and forth between cons in the US and then the

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Speaker 1: growing anime world in Japan. And Japanese readers apparently loved

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Speaker 1: the term cosplay because well that and the concept because

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Speaker 1: it really takes hold, and in just a few years

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Speaker 1: you have cosplayers dressing as anime characters. And then in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, that's when you see cosplay really starting

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Speaker 1: to take off with the explosion of anime and manga

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Right. Yeah, in the early nineties

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Speaker 1: you have the first Anime Expo in l A that

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Speaker 1: attracted only about seventeen hundred people, but by twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: almost fifty thousand people attended that con and A nine nine.

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Speaker 1: There was even a cosplay cafe that opened up in Tokyo,

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Speaker 1: and by now there are entire cosplay districts in Japan

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Speaker 1: and it's not it's common to see people in cosplay

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Speaker 1: on the streets of Japan, not just because they're on

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Speaker 1: their way to a con, but just because that's all

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Speaker 1: they dress. They're always in cosplay. Yeah, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like historic historic Williamsburg, Virginia. I guess

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Speaker 1: they're always dressed like it's the eighteen fifties or something,

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Speaker 1: or the seventeen Anyway, by twelve, anime conventions are being

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Speaker 1: held in thirty states in the US and five provinces

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Speaker 1: in Canada, and the following year, costplayers hit Reality TV

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Speaker 1: with the Sci Fi channels Heroes of Cosplay, so it

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Speaker 1: is like cosplay. As much as a lot of people

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Speaker 1: think of it as being outside the mainstream and weird

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Speaker 1: and something strange and foreign, it's pretty mainstream. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think cosplay is becoming mainstream, probably to the chagrin of

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Speaker 1: some hardcore cause players. I know that, uh not everyone

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Speaker 1: who was big into cosplay was a big fan of

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Speaker 1: Heroes of Cosplay on sci Fi. I read a blog

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Speaker 1: post on I think it was a comics related blog

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Speaker 1: talking about how it was just edited for reality and

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Speaker 1: it's not really. It kind of ignored the heart of cosplay,

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Speaker 1: which is all about just appreciating something and having a

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Speaker 1: space to let your fandom run wild to finally, you know,

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Speaker 1: to to actually be the characters that you love, and

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Speaker 1: also be surrounded by people who love you for that,

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Speaker 1: who look at the tiniest of details on your costume

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Speaker 1: and I think it's amazing. It's incredible. But it's not

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Speaker 1: just about the costumes. In fact, the focus of this

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Speaker 1: podcast really isn't so much on the costumes, but rather

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Speaker 1: the underlying gender play that some scholars have looked into. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting. The whole issue of cross play, which

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Speaker 1: I kind of in my mind as a complete outsider,

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Speaker 1: I never really subdivided like cross play out from cosplay.

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Speaker 1: I was always like, oh, well, you know, she's dressing

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Speaker 1: like a male character. He's dressing like a female character.

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Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of scholarship on this issue. So,

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Speaker 1: like I pointed out, cross play is dressing as a

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Speaker 1: character of another gender, and successful cross play is seen

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Speaker 1: as a means for cross players to distinguish themselves in

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Speaker 1: their art and their skills as a fan. So it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily about, you know, becoming someone of another gender,

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Speaker 1: but becoming that character so completely that people are like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: look at you, You're awesome. Yeah. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: just compare it to drag for for more lay audiences. Um.

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Speaker 1: And this is something, though specifically male to female cross play,

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Speaker 1: that Rachel Lang a Duke University, looked into, and she

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Speaker 1: wrote in a paper on this that when men cross

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Speaker 1: play as women, they're not merely dawning femininity but hyper femininity,

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Speaker 1: revealing the socially constructed nature of gender roles, yet can

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Speaker 1: commonly reinforcing them, which in a way is a lot

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Speaker 1: like drag because drag queens are not simply dressing up

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Speaker 1: as women, but as hyper feminine versions of women with

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Speaker 1: the big hair and the big makeup and the sparkles. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I thought this was such an interesting way to

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Speaker 1: look at it because they talk a lot about the

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Speaker 1: fictive nature of gender. So I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was I think it was. This paper was talking to

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Speaker 1: one particular cross player who talked about everything that he

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Speaker 1: had to go through to become these female, feminine characters.

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Speaker 1: He took voice lessons, he learned how to walk, He

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Speaker 1: has to pay so much attention to how he moves

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Speaker 1: his body to make sure that he's moving quote like

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Speaker 1: a woman and not like a man, which comes naturally

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Speaker 1: to him. And another interesting aspect of cross play that

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Speaker 1: Rachel Ling points out is that a lot of these

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Speaker 1: men who do cross play as female characters really stress

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're not gay. Not that there's not

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Speaker 1: gay cross players, but you know what I'm saying, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these men try to emphasize we're not gay.

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Speaker 1: It's part of what a big fan I am that

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Speaker 1: I'm dressing as this female character. And so just look

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Speaker 1: at the gender spiral of this. So a man who

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Speaker 1: is straight, is stressing as a female character, and to

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Speaker 1: do it and to show how good of a fan

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Speaker 1: he is, he's got to be super feminine while stressing

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Speaker 1: that he's masculine and so having to be so self

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Speaker 1: assured about that masculinity and heterosexuality while at the same

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Speaker 1: time asserting femininity layers. Well, yeah, and from that layers, Uh,

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Speaker 1: there sometimes comes extra respect from the cosplay community if

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Speaker 1: you dare to engage or maybe not dare. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem like it's that wild of an idea to engage

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Speaker 1: in cross play because a lot of times too, this

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Speaker 1: involves making your own costume, and like you talked about,

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Speaker 1: going to that extra effort to emulate these female characters

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Speaker 1: as closely as possible. And Lang identified two major motivations

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Speaker 1: that drive specifically the male to female cross play, which

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Speaker 1: are the desire to express fandom and skills, and also

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Speaker 1: the thrill of an enhanced which he calls carnivalesque experience

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Speaker 1: by transgressing the gender binary. In other words, it's just

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Speaker 1: more fun. Yeah, And a lot of cross players, serious

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Speaker 1: male to female cross players are really put off by

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Speaker 1: uh characters like I can't remember the official name, but

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Speaker 1: it's like basically like Bubba Sailor Moon, where guys who

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Speaker 1: are like bigger and hairy and are not making that

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Speaker 1: very strong physical effort to look like the female character

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Speaker 1: that they're depicting. But you know, so like the picture

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Speaker 1: and the story was a this rather large man with

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Speaker 1: a beard and a big gut, dressed up a sailor Moon,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the blonde wig over his beard and everything.

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Speaker 1: It's like more making light of it, whereas serious cross

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Speaker 1: players are having none of that, and they are really

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Speaker 1: making an effort to embody that character. Well. Probably even

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Speaker 1: more common, as a guardian reported on in is female

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Speaker 1: to male cross play because a lot of times female

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Speaker 1: casse players just might be challenged by the fact that

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Speaker 1: there aren't as many. Specifically, we're talking about comic book heroes,

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Speaker 1: interesting independent, strong female characters, like if they really want

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Speaker 1: to be a super tough character, it might demand cross playing,

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Speaker 1: and and one benefit or you know whatever. One good

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Speaker 1: thing about like anime and manga in particular is that

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Speaker 1: while a lot of the comic book or video games

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Speaker 1: sources that we have in the West, while the characters

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Speaker 1: there might be very masculine, and so women are choose

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Speaker 1: to cross play as these male characters. In a lot

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Speaker 1: of manga and anime series, the characters are more ambiguous,

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Speaker 1: so helping to enable this cross play is things like

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Speaker 1: what's called bi shown in which are highly feminized male

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Speaker 1: characters with model like proportions that tend to appear in

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Speaker 1: manga geared toward women. And along those lines, what's super

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Speaker 1: common to see when you have women cause players dressing

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Speaker 1: up as traditionally male characters is what's called femming. So

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Speaker 1: dressing up, say as Doctor Who, but not trying to

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Speaker 1: be one of the all male Doctor Who characters over

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Speaker 1: the years, but rather being a female Doctor Who, but

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Speaker 1: a female version I should say, of a specific Doctor Who.

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Speaker 1: And you see this all the time. It's it's also

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Speaker 1: kind of um. You get into pockets of cosplay where

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Speaker 1: it does start to look like the whole Halloween costume thing,

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Speaker 1: where it's just sexify anything. So you could be like

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Speaker 1: a sexy Bay and you'd just be wearing you know,

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Speaker 1: the scary face mask, but just a crop top. The

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Speaker 1: croptp will do, right, and so um blogger night Sky

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Speaker 1: said that feming a Doctor Who character is a way

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Speaker 1: for geek women to reclaim their femininity as legitimate in

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Speaker 1: a subculture that often denigrates all things girly. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's you know, it's interesting that there seems to be

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Speaker 1: so much cred, at least according to that Duke paper,

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Speaker 1: in the more realistic uh male to female cross play

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Speaker 1: of men dressing up as female characters and really owning

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Speaker 1: that female character. Um. And then sort of similar to that,

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Speaker 1: there also seems to be a lot of cred for

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Speaker 1: feming cosplay as well, which is kind of cool. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of fascinating gender

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Speaker 1: play at work on han floors. Yeah, exactly. And responding

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Speaker 1: to that blogger night Sky, the Guardian writer does point

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Speaker 1: out that yes, she's absolutely right. Um, you know, it

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Speaker 1: is a way to reclaim characters to say that, hey,

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Speaker 1: girley is okay. But it's also serving as that reminder

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Speaker 1: that a lot of female characters, including female characters in

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Speaker 1: Doctor Who, are the sidekicks. Yeah, it's like going back

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Speaker 1: to that whole lack of good source material. Yeah, and uh,

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Speaker 1: speaking of that, cosplay has been a way to offer

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Speaker 1: women entry into the traditionally male dominated gaming world, comic world,

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Speaker 1: world of fandom. I mean just think about the term fanboy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty clearly gendered. Uh. And And one

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Speaker 1: example called out in a paper we found in the

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Speaker 1: journal Intersections, Gender and Sexuality in Asia and the Pacific

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Speaker 1: is how in Japan, in particular, cosplay open doors for

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Speaker 1: japan needs women into the so called technic cultures. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so we've talked about the concept of kauai on

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Speaker 1: the podcast before. That's basically just like hypercuteness. And the

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Speaker 1: paper was talking about how you see this rise of

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Speaker 1: the cute culture, the kauai, alongside techno cultures that revolve

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Speaker 1: around using a mobile device. And so basically that kauai

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Speaker 1: served as sort of a gateway from um passive consumer

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Speaker 1: to women actually entering the gaming realm, the anime realm,

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Speaker 1: and actively participating. Because in the same way that a

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Speaker 1: woman might fem a doctor who character, they're talking about

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Speaker 1: Japanese girls and young women who are kind of cuting

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Speaker 1: up characters and participating in cosplay that way. And on

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Speaker 1: top of that, they were focusing on this specific type

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Speaker 1: of younger Japanese woman. And I don't have the Japanese

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Speaker 1: term for it, but it essentially means the single, independent

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Speaker 1: woman who is most closely associated with these cultures, who

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Speaker 1: is getting more into or has gotten more into, um,

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Speaker 1: the technoculture and really the participatory aspects of that. And

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Speaker 1: the paper also talks about how dressing up as characters

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Speaker 1: in these games in particular sort of opens up new

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Speaker 1: forms of gender performance. It decenters the geek guy as

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Speaker 1: the prime game consumer, and so it's just the same

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Speaker 1: kind of thing that you see happening over in the

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Speaker 1: US as well. But while there are all sorts of

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Speaker 1: fascinating gender performance aspects to this, and the name that

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Speaker 1: comes up over and over again actually in these papers

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Speaker 1: on cosplay is Judith Butler. You know who is the

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd want to be called the

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Speaker 1: mother of it, but she's the matriarch of the idea

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Speaker 1: of gender as performance UM and women are certainly welcomed

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Speaker 1: in the cosplay world and are prominent part of it,

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Speaker 1: but it's not it's not all costumes and roses. Caroline, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the whole thing about you know, cosplay not being

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Speaker 1: all Kauai all the time is that while on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, you've got all these women coming into cons

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Speaker 1: and cosplay and that's great, and that's amazing and they should.

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Speaker 1: Why not. Um, the more women that show up, the

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Speaker 1: more reports surface of things like sexual harassment. You hear

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Speaker 1: the statement a lot that cosplay does not equal consent,

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Speaker 1: and we will talk a lot more about that in

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Speaker 1: a minute. But you know, there's the struggle with the

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Speaker 1: fact that, like we just mentioned a minute ago, source

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Speaker 1: material for women wanting to cosplay as strong characters is lacking.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the comic book women, video game women

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Speaker 1: characters are dressed on the more scantily clad side. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and and a lot of their proportions are

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Speaker 1: super busty or super leggy, and it lends itself to

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Speaker 1: sexy costumes. And even when you know we're doing you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're doing a film costume of a male character,

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Speaker 1: like I mentioned jokingly, uh, a lot of times those

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Speaker 1: costumes get sexy and provocative as well. And while some

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Speaker 1: of the cosplay world have argued that, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's two sexy, it's too booby, that's not what it's about. Um.

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Speaker 1: The fact of the matter is, even if you are

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Speaker 1: wearing a super sexy costume, whether it is being faithful

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Speaker 1: to that original character portrayal, or if you are reinterpreting

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Speaker 1: a costume in a sexier version. That's not an invitation

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Speaker 1: for someone to touch you or take up skirt photos

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Speaker 1: of you, or verbally harass you. And unfortunately that has

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Speaker 1: become at least a more media prominent part of the

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Speaker 1: cons So, for instance, recently with the San Diego Common Con,

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Speaker 1: there was this entire initiative started by a group called

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Speaker 1: Geeks for Consent. That's capital c O N sent consent, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And Geeks for Consent was basically pushing for comic Con

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Speaker 1: to adopt a stronger, more official anti sexual harassment policy

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Speaker 1: beyond just their standard code of conduct, and they ended

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Speaker 1: up collecting more than signatures on a petition to get

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Speaker 1: such a policy, and they stated on their website that

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Speaker 1: unfortunately some congo or see women in costumes it's just

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Speaker 1: a part of the convention scenery and believe that they

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Speaker 1: are dressed up solely to attract male attention. And you know,

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Speaker 1: they're arguing that it's not fair that like if you

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Speaker 1: have a mail, for instance, just to use the example

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Speaker 1: of a male to female cross player, like you know,

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Speaker 1: he's praised for being so faithful to the character's depiction,

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Speaker 1: and so if you have a woman who wants to

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Speaker 1: pick a strong woman from anime or video games or

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Speaker 1: movies or something, and that character happens to be scantily

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Speaker 1: out of wearing a crop top or ripped jeans or something.

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Speaker 1: You know, they want to be faithful to that strong character,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes that just involves being scantily clad themselves. But

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Speaker 1: that is not an okay, a past to harass these women,

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Speaker 1: grow these women, and it's what so many have to

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Speaker 1: end up dealing with. Yeah, there are groups that are

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Speaker 1: working to address this matter and to improve things. For instance,

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Speaker 1: the New York Cause Player Network has put together panels

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Speaker 1: to teach women how to stay safe and also deal

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Speaker 1: with harassment, although it does seem like it's not necessarily well,

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Speaker 1: let's just say it's not just the women who could

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Speaker 1: use some education regarding harassment and how to behave um.

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Speaker 1: And then beyond that, there have been some issues, particularly

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Speaker 1: with Cause players of color, because you know, as we

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Speaker 1: talked about, when it comes to cosplay, authenticity is the

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Speaker 1: number one currency. If you can look down to a

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Speaker 1: t like a particular character, than you are golden. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to representation in uh comic book heroes,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a lot of them not only are male,

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Speaker 1: but they're also very white as well. So there's actually

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Speaker 1: a tumbler um called cause playing while black just to

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Speaker 1: offer some visibility to, you know, cause players of color

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Speaker 1: that hey, look we can cause play too, just because

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Speaker 1: our skin tone might not match the skin tone of

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Speaker 1: whatever character we are dressing up as. Yeah, I hated

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Speaker 1: reading the kinds of things that blogger shak A cumber

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Speaker 1: Batch over at Exo Jane had to face when she

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Speaker 1: dressed up as Sailor Moon. She was like talking about

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Speaker 1: how excited she was to dress up as a character,

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Speaker 1: how great of a time she had, but that one

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Speaker 1: single picture of her dressed in character like blew the

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Speaker 1: Internet up with people saying incredibly off full racist things

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Speaker 1: and essentially boiled down to she wasn't suited because of

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Speaker 1: her skin, because of the her face shape, her nose shape,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't suited for such a cute character. I did

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Speaker 1: like her point though, and she says, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't understand being attacked for not being accurate down to

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Speaker 1: my skin color, because no one can be accurate when

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Speaker 1: a character is eight feet tall with quote basketballs for boobs,

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Speaker 1: which is a very good point because there there have

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Speaker 1: been issues not only with costplayers of color, but also

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Speaker 1: people of different body shapes and sizes being called out,

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Speaker 1: especially if they might be wearing a tighter fitting or

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Speaker 1: a more skin revealing costume, of saying oh no, you

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Speaker 1: you're too you're too big to wear that. None, none

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Speaker 1: of that now where you know that the people who

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Speaker 1: are really invested in cosplay would say, but that's the

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Speaker 1: whole part of this. This is for everybody. This is

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Speaker 1: the space where I can ring all of my super

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Speaker 1: geeky fandom that people that I work with are people

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Speaker 1: that I, you know, see regularly in public, just might

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Speaker 1: not get about me. This is where people can get me.

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Speaker 1: So why do I need to look a certain way?

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Speaker 1: And that whole issue too of visibility and representation UM

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Speaker 1: and cosplay for everyone is another reason why, sort of

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Speaker 1: as jumping off from cosplaying while black, there's also a

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Speaker 1: popular cause playing while trans Tumbler, because it was started

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Speaker 1: by a trans woman who said, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: caused by all the time, and I wanted some costume

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Speaker 1: inspiration from other trans cause players and I could find nothing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so that started as well because you know, and

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who came out on

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Speaker 1: the tumbler sharing their photos and talking about how wonderful

429
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: it was to see other trans people cosplaying because they

430
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: felt like they always needed to keep their sort identity

431
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: under wraps for fear of discrimination. Yeah, a lot of

432
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: the trans cost players in this article, we're sort of

433
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: talking about how they were on the defense. They had

434
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: to run defense all the time because people, it's that

435
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: whole layer gender thing. You know, are you are you

436
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: coss playing? Are you cross playing? You know what? Are

437
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: you really? You're really a guy? Like having to face

438
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: that abuse. So not only do you have to deal

439
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: with potential sexual harassment, but you also have to deal

440
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: with people harassing you for like not being biologically accurate.

441
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like there's there's so many ways

442
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: to be attacked. Well, it's interesting that that's happening, to

443
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: that it would happen, and I really hope that this

444
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: is the exception. I don't think that this is really

445
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: the rule. Um, But these are instances that are certainly

446
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: getting a lot more attention as they should. Um. But

447
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: it's fascinating that these kinds of things come up in

448
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: an area where it seems like it should all be about,

449
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: you know, it's all it's all about sort of deconstructing gender,

450
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, and what I mean, and and a lot

451
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: of these a lot of these characters aren't even human.

452
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: So what's the problem here, Yeah, exactly, Okay, Well moving

453
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: to you know, we want to continue this, this gender

454
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: discussion of cosplaying, but we obviously have to bring feminism

455
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: into it, because I mean, you could go in a

456
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: circle forever talking about a woman cosplayer dressing up as

457
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: a scantily clad comic book character and whether that's empowering

458
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: and feminist or whether that's being she's being exploited. I mean,

459
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: it's quite a discussion. It is quite a discussion. The

460
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: fact the matter is, there are uh, professional cause playing

461
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: women who essentially are just their models. They're very attractive

462
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: women with very conventionally attractive bodies that involve large breasts

463
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: and small waists and attractive behind and they you know,

464
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: have fan groups and fan pages is and make money,

465
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, by going to different cons and dressing up

466
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: and their costumes obviously are sexy and that's the whole

467
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: point of it. And not everybody likes that. So, for instance,

468
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: if someone like Jessica Nigri, who is a professional cause player.

469
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: She's probably one of the most successful and well known

470
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: and is very sexy. If she goes to a con,

471
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: people complain that, well, it's hard to get anywhere because

472
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: people are just crowding up to you know, and by people,

473
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: it's usually all guys crowding to take photos with her.

474
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: And it's women like that who are making it super

475
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: sexy who are ruining it for the rest of us,

476
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: to which Jessica at all, who are also you know,

477
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: making money off of this, partially because they look really

478
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: great and sexy costumes say hey, now, no, I'm just

479
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing, right, And so there's a

480
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: lot of argument over whether something like that is empowering

481
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: and feminist or not. And an I. G. N actually

482
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: talked to three women cost players who talked a lot

483
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: about enjoying the validation and attention that comes along with

484
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: dressing up like this, a feeling feminine and or powerful,

485
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: and also using their sexuality, all of this in the

486
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: framework of feminism. But they also do talk in this

487
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: interview a lot about the extreme sexual harassment that they face,

488
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: whether it's just verbal or actually physical, and the misogyny

489
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: that they know exists. But the whole thing about talking

490
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: to these three women is, um, they really really took

491
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: issue with feminism. Yeah, they all completely disavowed feminism because

492
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: it seemed like the women who were most critical of

493
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: them were coming from a feminist stance, basically saying that

494
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: they were degrading themselves by being sexy. And this this

495
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: gets into a whole different kind of converse station though, Well, yeah,

496
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: because somebody like the Vixen gamer she says, we're seeing

497
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: a big spearhead of feminism in the gaming industry, and

498
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: I think, don't sacrifice your feminine femininity to fit in.

499
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: And then there's the whole conversation of well what is

500
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: I mean, Let's not get super philosophical right now, but

501
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: like what is femininity? And who are you being feminine? Four?

502
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: And who are you performing your gender four? And are

503
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: you really doing it to make yourself happy? Or are

504
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: you doing it because you are fitting into what men

505
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: expect of you? And on and on and on. I

506
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: am I would love to hear from cause players on

507
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: this particular issue, because you know you and I can

508
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: only offer outside perspectives to me. The simplest way to

509
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: boil it down is ladies, you do you okay if

510
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: this is the way that you make your your money

511
00:31:54,560 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: and you feel empowered and safe doing it, okay A

512
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: but do other lady caused players is solid and unlike

513
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: black Cat, don't blame them for men behaving badly, because,

514
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: as she describes, if you don't turn around and threaten

515
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: to hurt them in the penis region, then you're the

516
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 1: one to blame for your own harassment. It's like everyone

517
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: just needs to could we all just get on the

518
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: same page regarding harassment and good behavior? And because you

519
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: just promote good behavior, and then then can't we all

520
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: just con together in peace and harmony. That would be great.

521
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: But something that I thought was so strange and and

522
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: another blogger thought this was odd too. But in this

523
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: interview Ardella Costclaire Ardella says that sexism is really a

524
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: point of view. It's how you react to it and

525
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: how you betray yourself as to whether or not you

526
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: allow people to objectify you. She basically said, don't let

527
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: anyone treat you like an object if that's not the

528
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: way you want to be treated to, which you know,

529
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: I just like my eyes rolled into the back of

530
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: my head because Okay, Blogger interest sceptive ak a read

531
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: Jenkins had an appropriate response. I thought she said that

532
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: to suggest that sexism, rather than being inherently wrong, is

533
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: simply a matter of how the person affected deals with

534
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: it is ridiculous, and she takes issue with a lot

535
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: of the arguments that were raised in the interview. Well yeah,

536
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean she compared that to saying, uh, you know, okay,

537
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: so let's take this this assertion that sexism is just

538
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: how you, the the objectified person, deals with it. She

539
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, you've said that, but just replaced sexism

540
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: with racism. Clearly everyone would disagree with you, and so

541
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: it's a similar kind of thing with sexism. Um. Over

542
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: at the Geek Feminism blog, Uh, there's an entire more

543
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: academic presentation on this whole issue of the sexy geek

544
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: caused play thing and um she talks about how quote

545
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: geek media representations of women influence geek women's decision decisions

546
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: to dress in sexy cause play, and how what makes

547
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: sexy cosplay sexy is not just that women are attractive,

548
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: but that they're performing and actively seeking the male approval.

549
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: It's that question that you raise, Caroline of like well,

550
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 1: who are you performing this for? And obviously for professional

551
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: cost players who make money off of other people buying

552
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: calendars and whatnot of them in sexy costumes. Yeah, obviously

553
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: they're performing it for, you know, to to look sexy

554
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: for the male gaze. That's their job. Yeah yeah, but

555
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they're talking too about like people

556
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: who aren't just the just the professional ones, not just

557
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: the professional cost players, but just um women who might

558
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: go to these cons and do want to capture that

559
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: empowered feeling by dressing a certain way. And the Geek

560
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: Feminism blogger talked about how it is that particular type

561
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: of gender performance that is rewarded in this culture, whether

562
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: you're a professional or an amateur. To me that the

563
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: Geeks for consent response is sort of the cleanest across

564
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 1: the board response to all of this, which is simply

565
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: that cosplay does not equal consent. And perhaps if you know,

566
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: Comic Con as other cons are doing outlines of stricter

567
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: sexual harassment policy. The more that people talk about it,

568
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: the more media coverage it gets, the more you know,

569
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: perhaps these kinds of behaviors that taint the cosplay experience

570
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: um might improve. Yeah, well, we can look to Washington,

571
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: d C is Awesome Con as an example where this worked.

572
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: Um Awesome Con partnered with Geeks for Consent to provide

573
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: a team on site who could act as a resource

574
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: for attendees who feel unsafe. UM and Awesome Con now

575
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: has adopted a zero tolerance policy against harassment, groping, stalking,

576
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: and inappropriate photography. And they said that gender based harassment

577
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: doesn't have to happen in the workplace to be unacceptable.

578
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: And so I think it's great that there are groups

579
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: out there and cons out there who are taking definite,

580
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: concrete steps to say hey, no, no, no, no, no,

581
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: you don't get to be a harasser and you shouldn't

582
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: have to be a victim just because you want to

583
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: come to this convention, Like, harassment is not an acceptable

584
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: part of dressing up and having an awesome time with

585
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: your fellow geek culture people. Well, personally, I don't feel

586
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: qualified to jump directly into this phray regarding you know,

587
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: all of the causeplay politics of sexy costumes. I think

588
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: there are a lot of different layers to it in

589
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: terms of the representations of women in these fandom sources,

590
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: the source texts and sourced films and television shows and

591
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: et cetera. Um, we are relying on our audience to

592
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: fill in the blank for this because I know we

593
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: got some cause players listening. Yeah. I cannot wait to

594
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: see your pictures. By the way, Yes, please send us photos.

595
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: They are appreciated. Yeah. I want to see photos. And

596
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you if you've had any

597
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: of these sorts of whether you're male or female, cosplaying

598
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: or cross playing, I do want to hear from you

599
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: about has have you faced harassment or have you just

600
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: been getting high fives everywhere you go? I want to

601
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: I want to hear about it. And is this something

602
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: that is overblown in the media. Is this simply, you know,

603
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: sort of a very small aspect of con the con life, um,

604
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: that maybe gets too much attention. Let us know Mom's

605
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: Stuff at how Stuffwork dot com is our email address.

606
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

607
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we have a couple of messages

608
00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. We have some letters

609
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: here about our Wanderlust Traveling Women episode. I have one

610
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: from Anna. She said three years ago, I had a

611
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: stable partner, good job prospects, and a home I soon

612
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: discovered I was pregnant and gave up my career to

613
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: start down the path of motherhood. Later, I experienced a

614
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: rather traumatic miscarriage in which I had to have a

615
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: d n C. Following my miscarriage, my partner left me

616
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: and blamed me for the loss of the child. Realizing

617
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: that I gave up my career for a child that

618
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: would never be that resulted in the loss of my

619
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: partner was too much, so I decided that I needed

620
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: to go. I didn't just travel, but I moved to

621
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: rural Japan by myself. I've since moved around the southern

622
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: island of Kyushu, met my future husband, and have been

623
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: enjoying the freedom that comes with being a contract worker

624
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: in Japan. I've never read any travel memoirs, and this

625
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: podcast was the first time I didn't feel alone and

626
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: what happened to me. I think more women should go

627
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: out and live in another country by themselves for a while,

628
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: because it really does help you to see how small

629
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: your problems are in the grand scheme of things. But

630
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: thanks Anna, and I've got a similar letter here from

631
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: Natalie about um how she got wander lusty after a breakup.

632
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: She writes, it's almost embarrassing how true most of the

633
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 1: things you discussed are in regard to myself and my story.

634
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: Over the past year, my significant other of eleven years

635
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: and I broke up, and I found myself lost, never

636
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: having experienced adult life without him. I'm a school teacher

637
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: and have the summers off, which allowed me to take

638
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: what I refer to as an epic summer adventure, all

639
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: of which she capitalized. I got in my car and

640
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: just drove to as many places as I could. I

641
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,479
Speaker 1: think the most life changing spot for me was seeing

642
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon for the first time. It could be

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Speaker 1: because of how impressive the Grand Canyon is, but I

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Speaker 1: think it was more because it was my first major stop.

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Speaker 1: Walking up to this amazing place that exists in the

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Speaker 1: world and knowing that I got there by myself was

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Speaker 1: completely and utterly overwhelming and empowering. I sat on the

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Speaker 1: rim of the canyon and just cried while others walked

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Speaker 1: around me, wondering what my problem was. After that, I

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00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: knew that I could do anything, and that being alone

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Speaker 1: has some great benefits. You can check out a blog

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Speaker 1: I kept while I was gone at Natalie Genie dot

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Speaker 1: tumbler dot com and see photos from my trip on

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Speaker 1: my Instagram using the hashtag my Epic Summer Adventure. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for all the time and effort you put into your show.

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Speaker 1: You never disappoint, So thanks Natalie, and thanks everybody who's

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Speaker 1: written into us. Mom Steff at house set works dot

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Speaker 1: com is our email address and for links to all

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Speaker 1: of our social media's as well as all of our

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Speaker 1: blog post, videos, and podcasts, including this one, which also

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Speaker 1: includes its sources so you can follow along. There's one

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Speaker 1: place to go, and it's stuff Mom Never Told You

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Speaker 1: dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics.

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Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com