WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 5 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.640 Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.560 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:17.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:27.400 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.400 here a podcast that is on the cycle of being 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.040 sort of Okayley introduced. When this episode goes out, it 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.000 will be Indigenous People's Day and so to to talk 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.919 about that more where we're gonna talk to Dalia Killsbach, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.480 who is a member of the Northern Chyenne, has Northern 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.000 Cheyenne tribal citizenship and has sort of studied and worked 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.239 in federal India tribal policy. Dahlia, Hello, how how are 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.400 you doing? I'm doing well. Thank you for inviting me 0:00:55.480 --> 0:01:00.440 here today. Of course Garrison is also here. Garrison, Hello, Hello, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.440 I'm I'm currently also doing writing about indigenous stuff, but 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.639 within the context of Canada, which people should will probably 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.199 here later this week. Um so yeah, I guess first 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.880 thing I wanted to talk about is a little bit 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.840 is about what Indigenous People's Day is and why it 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.720 is that and not the other thing. UM. Yeah. So 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:29.360 Indigenous People's Day UM, as many people know, is replacing 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.000 I'm gonna say, Chris Christopher Columbus Day, UM that is 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.000 still like a federal holiday. But so multiple cities and 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:42.560 states have opted to use Indigenous People's Day instead UM. 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.640 And the reasoning for that is acknowledging the atrocities that 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.160 were committed by Christopher Columbus, who first of all did 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:57.040 not discover America UM, but um continue to UM not 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:03.440 only use slavery, but um commit different forms of genocide, rape, etcetera, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.480 all of these terrible atrocities. And so rather than celebrating 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:13.600 UM somebody like that UM, Indigenous people say, UM has 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.560 been implemented in order to recognize the people who are 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:24.680 actually here first UM and indigenous people's across the America's 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:32.160 there histories, UM, cultures and contributions. Yeah, Columbus, real piece 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.760 of ship, worst Christopher, Like, yeah, it really cannot be 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.320 overstated how baddy that guy was, even you know, even 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.280 people in that era who had committed their own genocides 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.120 like Isabelle and Ferdinand, who you know, expelled the Jews 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.760 from Spain, where it's like, you know, if once you've 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.799 reached the sentence expelled the Jews from X like you 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.720 you're are, You're already in the ship lists of the 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.880 worst people in human history. And even they saw what 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.200 Columbus was doing, it was like what on Earth, bad 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.240 bad guy, bad name. Things are going to continue to 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.200 go badly? And yeah, that that was an everything that 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:14.440 I wanted to talk about, which is federal Indian policy. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.359 And you know this this is an incredibly broad This 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.280 is an incredibly broad area spanning like three hundred years. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.320 So we're not gonna be able to go into like 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.400 an enormous amount of depth in it. But I think 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:33.400 it's important that people have an understanding of, i mean, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.960 aged what the US did and how everyone else has 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.120 had this sort of deal with it. And then also 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.280 the fact that this is something that changes over time 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.880 and has has looked different, It's looked it's been bad 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.240 in different ways. Yeah, and so when talking about federal 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.600 Indian policy, I always like to contextualize it within a 0:03:53.840 --> 0:04:00.440 larger um sort of like Euro American, like Teley bology 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.800 of colonial conquests and then moving on to settler colonialism 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.240 and where we are with federal federal Indian policy currently. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.600 Um So, how do we connect Christopher Columbus to where 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:18.440 we are currently? Um? And this is the history of 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:25.400 federal Indian policy and Western legal discourse and how UM 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:30.919 European powers throughout history have defined what it means to 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:36.240 be an Indian person in relationship to UM indigenous people's 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.760 rights to their own land and to self governance. UM. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.400 So when we're looking at the different periods of federal 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.320 Indian policy UM, prior to their being the United States government, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.760 we have the colonial period UM, which is fourteen ninety 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.880 two to seventeen seventies six. UM. This is how federal 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.640 Indian policy illegal scholars divide that UM. And it's really 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:07.720 important to kind of give the difference between what is 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.480 um a colonial state versus a settler colonial state when 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.800 you're talking about not just the United States government, but 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:20.479 also the Canadian government and UM different governments globally. UM. 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.800 But I want to talk just a little bit about 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.560 what I mean by the difference between a colonial government 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:32.000 and a settler colonial government, because they're tied together. UM. 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:36.000 So by a settler colonial government. I mean what I 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:41.880 mean is that it is defined by the d territorialization 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.159 of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.640 colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:54.120 Spanish and with the English, etcetera, UM is rather than 0:05:54.680 --> 0:06:01.640 a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.160 are going back to the metrical all these resources are 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.279 going back to England or to Spain, etcetera. And colonial 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:15.360 occupation is in is um conceptualized within this way. In 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.640 settler colonial governments, UM, the colonists come to these lands 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.120 and stay and they're what they define as sovereignty is 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.760 within this land that they define now as their own. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.440 So and in order for that process to happen, UM, 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.839 there needs to be different forms of genocide of the 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.880 indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:42.039 Columbus and throughout history UM was just the depletion of 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.800 a lot of our indigenous populous UM. And so when 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:52.000 I mean about the United States UM being a settler 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.240 colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.520 And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, UM, 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:03.240 federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:08.400 started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery and um, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.400 so that's how we define the colonial period and feel 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.160 free to like stop me and ask me questions. Else 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.840 I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.480 a lot. Yeah, I think we probably should briefly talk 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.400 about what the doctory discovery is m letasy before we 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.440 get to sit at the martial trilogy and stuff. For sure, 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:37.239 what does that actually mean legally? Um? So legally, UM, 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.880 it's the discovery of a quote unquote New found Land 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:46.800 UM by European colonial forces. And the reason why it's 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.360 called the doctrine of discovery was that indigenous peoples on 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.320 these lands were deemed unable to govern themselves and they 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.240 did not know how to utilize their land up to 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:03.280 the definition of what the European powers thought um land 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:09.080 use was that um, indigenous peoples didn't have the same 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:15.360 concept of property um, and same with their relationship with 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:22.120 resources and resource extraction. So when um, Christopher Columbus and 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.800 all of these other colonizers clunky clunkyst doors came to 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.960 the quote unquote New Land, UM, they saw all of 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:35.000 this rich plentiful resource and thoughts of themselves. Well, obviously 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.160 these people don't know what they're doing because there's just 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.360 so much they have not done anything with it. Um. 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.760 And we're going to take this back to two hours 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:51.000 because obviously their inferior beings and don't know what property is. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:57.240 So um legally um it the doctrine of discovery conveyed 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.000 legal title to an ownership of Americans soil to European 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.719 nations um, a title that devolved to the United States 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:11.480 and so UM. This definition is expansive UM. And expansive 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.360 discovery implies that Native nations have a right to lands 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.280 as occupants or possessors, but they are incompetent to manage 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:24.160 those lands and need a quote unquote benevolent guardian such 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:30.559 as a federal government who holds legal title and UM. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.720 So when we're talking about this legal title, it devolves 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.640 to the United States later on UM in history, after 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.760 the American Revolution UM, and so rather than being colonial 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.560 states um as the United States like thirteen original colonies, 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:53.640 given um the American Revolution and its own constitution and 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:58.600 its creation of itself as a nation state, then that 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:05.000 turns into a set colonial government. Yeah, I think we can, Yeah, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:09.240 we can get to what happens next then, because yeah, yeah, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.440 you have you have this elaborate legal framework that lets 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.320 you steal people's land and murder them and then control it. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:19.480 And then the outgrowth of that is this sort of 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.680 weird event where the colonies go into rebellion and suddenly, yeah, 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:24.880 there's there's not a colony. They're not colonies anymore. They 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.760 just are the state. And so yeah, about what happens 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.280 next after the sort of formation of the United States. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:37.960 So after the formation of the United States, Um, so 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.600 we have this period the American Revolution, it's all not 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.320 really dive that into. It is seventeen seventy six to 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.440 seventeen eighty nine, and it's called the Confederation period. But 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.840 next we have the Trade and Intercourse AFT era, which 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.800 is from seventeen eighty nine to eighteen thirty five. And 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.720 so this is defined with the United States Constitution and 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.760 Congress's exclusive right to regulate trade relations and make lands 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.320 since the land secessions, and enter into treaties with tribes. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.680 So this is a treaty making era with the tribes 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.960 that only the United States federal government is able to 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.920 And there's a distinction there because there had been a 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:25.320 lot of contestation between states and the federal government as 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.320 to who is going to now deal with these, um, 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.840 these nations that are with our within our own settler 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:39.600 colonial borders. So whose job is that to solve this issue? Um? 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.480 So within the United States Constitution, there are three clauses 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:49.360 that define the United States legal relationship to American Indians. 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.439 And so these are the treaty making clause, the commerce clause, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:58.199 and the property clause. Um. And so this this movement 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:03.520 from just relying on the doctrine of discovery and treaty 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.680 making processes between different European powers now is between the 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.800 United States federal government and tribes. And so what this 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:16.720 does is now tribes are located within the United States territory, 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.200 and this places Indians within the boundaries and jurisdiction of 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.800 the United States, and now there are a matter of 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.280 domestic interest something It leads it to one of the 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.280 sort of complicated questions that changes to this whole era, 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.560 which is about what does sovereignty mean for these tribes 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.960 and to what extent to the even continue to possess it? 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.600 And how does that even sort of how does that 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.360 work if you have when you have this new state 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.559 that's sort of just has his clean control here, right, 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:53.000 and also during this period UM, well, well later on 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.160 when we have UM, sorry jumping ahead of myself, when 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.120 we have the extermination of the treaty making process, and 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:08.160 this completely removes seeing tribes as independent sovereign nations. UM. 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.680 So I think that will kind of get more into 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:16.120 that later. But the thing with federal Indian policy UM 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:22.000 is that it's sort of self prophesizing. So as settlers 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.560 are moving across America, UM, the United States government also 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:31.360 has to create these policies UM in order to legalize 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.200 these land cessations and movements. And a pattern that we 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.560 do see here UM throughout history and throughout time is 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.600 that the United States federal government, as a settler state 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:49.000 is UM over the rights of over the um rights 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:53.320 to land and rights of indigenous peoples themselves. You have 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.240 a priority of the settler state in order to acquire land. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.400 So that a lot of the reason why um, later 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.960 these treaties will be broken, etcetera, is because settlers are 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.680 moving into these lands and the United States is then 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:15.679 breaking these treaties in order to um have more more land, 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.920 more land secessions. Yeah, the laws are of just following 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.680 the violence, and it's just becomes a sort of retroactive justification. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:30.320 For yes, it's it's a self justifying sort of sovereignty. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.680 So this is the Removal period and what a lot 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:36.200 of people may have heard of. So it's from five 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.240 to eighteen sixty one. And what we have is the 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.160 extinguishment of Indian title to eastern lands and the removal 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.840 of Indian tribes westward. So UM. One of the most 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.360 notable acts is the Removal Act which was authorized by 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:56.320 President Andrew Jackson, which moved Um Indians from the east 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.320 to the west of the Mississippi River into what was 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.760 called Indian Territory UM. And what brought about this UM 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:10.160 Federal Federal Act UM was a series of three foundational 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.960 statutes within Federal Indian Policy UM dictated by Chief Justice 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.040 John Marshall. So first we have Johnson B. Macintosh Cherokee 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.920 Nation be Georgia and Worcester be Georgia. And I won't 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.160 go into too much detail, but what this these essentially 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:34.240 UM did and legally defined tribes as being domestic dependent nations. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:39.040 And so it clarified more that again tribal nations are 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:44.880 underneath the federal government's overview, not the states. So yeah, 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.440 it placed tribes above state jurisdiction. And what this is 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:53.000 trying to do was UM solve some issues that tribes 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.160 such as the Cherokee Nation had with different states when 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:02.120 it came to land and UM jurisdiction over said land. Um. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:07.000 But that is kind of the basis of a lot 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.840 of federal Indian policy and still remains truth day And 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:15.160 what is notable um in each one of these statutes um, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:20.800 I believe, particularly in Worcester the Georgia, although it seems 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:25.200 that it was supporting tribal sovereignty in them and that 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:30.440 they were above state jurisdiction, a lot of these UM 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:36.040 statute sided racist president and the doctrine of Discovery. So um, 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.520 what you see for federal Indian policy is that a 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.560 lot of the found well all the foundation for federal 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.400 Indian policy based on President is the doctrine of Discovery, 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.880 which is reliant on the idea that American Indians were 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:56.920 savages and needed um federal benevolence and um paternalism in 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:02.520 order to regulate their own affairs. Yeah, and I think 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.320 that's well, okay, we should probably not just immediatelys's get 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.360 to allotment. But yeah, because there there's there's, there's there's 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.760 also Yeah, this is also the period of used. Yeah, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.240 the thing you were talking about earlier, the thing you 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.920 helped me know about, which is okay, it's not true 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.200 to say this is when this starts, but this is 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:23.360 Indian Removal Act Trail of Tears territory. And one thing 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:24.680 that you know, I think one of one of the 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.320 sort of running themes of this is that you know, 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.640 the the law in this context is just sort of 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.159 it becomes a sort of retroactive excuse to do whatever 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.080 needs to be done from the perspective quote unquote of 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.520 the sort of of the settler state to just take 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.879 all of this land. Yeah. And I think maybe like 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:48.080 one of the keystones of this is Andrew Jackson just 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.679 straight up tellings between court to funk Off so that 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.680 he can do so he can do with Trail of Tears. Yeah. Um, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:01.720 so the Removal Act have and after all of these 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:07.080 statutes that you already had that supported um, federal Indian sovereignty, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.199 and so the Cherokees in Georgia were one of the 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:16.040 tribes that were removed. Um. And so you kind of 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:21.400 see what you talked about the the retrograde kind of 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:27.040 justifications for said removal despite um the statutes that are there. 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:32.640 So although that like Marshall UM in Worcester, g Georgia 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.840 determined that the State of Georgia did not have jurisdiction 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.639 over Cherokee territory, all this territory, although this territory was 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.960 in the state's borders. UM. Later on you see with 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:48.920 the Removal Act that although these statutes are still president 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:54.439 in federal Indian policy, those were noel in order for 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.200 UM there to be more UM expansion of settlers within 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.240 these areas. Is so when it was decided that, oh, wait, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.760 we do need this land, and we don't actually want 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.600 these Indians here, let's put them to the side over 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.280 past the Mississippi so that they're out of side, out 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.840 of mind. Right, So we see more of this UM 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.880 justification for settler expansion. And so again we bring back 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.080 to these themes of like settler colonialism in order to 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.639 UM kind of gain more of this land. And a 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.159 lot of these statutes are still cited the doctrine of 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:37.919 discovery in them and rather than supporting tribal policy, the 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.080 relationship between the United States federal government and American Indians. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.960 Um was not based on the rights of Indians, but 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.239 more that they can't they can't govern themselves, right and 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.040 so so and that's the whole issue. It is like 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.119 people are like they don't know what they're doing, so 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.639 we're gonna push them and like take their land again. 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.119 So I I I don't know if you want me 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:05.919 to go too much into the trail of tears, but um, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.679 you're seeing a lot of patterns here, I think, different 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.760 forms of genocide, different forms of taking land. This was 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.719 This is all around the same time as the Indian 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.920 Acting Canada as well, which was did a very similar thing, 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.600 especially starting in the starting in the twenty century as 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:29.160 well with the like expansion of the like assimilation programs. Yeah, 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.080 and I think I guess the only thing I want 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.239 to point out about this is that, you know, so 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:34.960 one of one of the things that happens trailers tears 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.720 at the Streame Court like tells Jackson that he can't 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:42.720 do this, and j actually just does it anyways, And 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.000 I think that's a very interesting important moment because you know, 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.000 this is this is this thing right where the federal 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.760 government can tell there's Supreme Court to funk off right, 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.520 and there's nothing that streame courts could do about it. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.000 And if you look at what they did it to do, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.159 the thing they did it to do was genocide. And 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.159 it's I think it's it's just I think it's a 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.320 very sort of I don't know, this incredibly grim like 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.080 you know, encapsulation of like what this state actually is, 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.480 which is the sort of genocide machine and whatever sort 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:14.119 of you know, this is what sovereignty is, right, the 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.240 ability to break your own rules to sort of into 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.440 or to maintain the system. So you know, you break 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.240 your own laws and you know, as we're gonna get 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.959 you in a second, like you break your own treaties continuously. 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.120 And you do this because you know, the genoside machine 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.359 has to keep moving, right. And um there's a couple 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:35.359 of federal and new policy theorists, um Bindeler Jr. Who's 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.800 one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins, 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.240 who talks about how there is no need for checks 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:45.639 and balances within the federal ding policy system. So you 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.040 have Congress that is able to um pass whatever act 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.800 they want, and and then you also have the Supreme Court, 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.280 and then you also have executive action, but it wasn't 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:03.360 really delineated at well UM within especially when it comes 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.399 to this period as to who is going to be 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.280 dealing with the Indians kind of thing UM. And so 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:15.200 this kind of confusion and not really completely defining what 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.720 it means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.840 really just goes to show how much of a fragile 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:28.280 edifice like settler um colonial policy is for it is 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:32.280 within the system UM. But again moving on, it comes 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:37.000 back again to land. So the reservation area era in 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:42.760 eighteen sixty one to eighteen eighty seven UM has you 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:47.000 have a lot of westward expansion of non Indians UM settlers, 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.680 specifically to California. You also have the creation of Indian 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:58.639 reservations and resulting Indian wars UM. Uh. So during this 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:00.880 era what you see a lot a lot of UM 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.679 are different types of attempts that assimilation UM and a 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:07.720 lot of warfare. So you have a lot of the 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:13.120 Plains tribes my tribe for instance, UM, that are going 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:17.720 through all of these battles fighting UM forced removal onto 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:23.400 reservations UM. One of the most famous ones was UM 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.200 the Battle of Greasy Grass or a little big Horn 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:32.520 UM where General Custer was killed by Sue Cheyennes and Arapahos, 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:36.280 and different instances of battles such as those, and also 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:41.480 where a lot of tribes UM were forcibly removed to 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.840 areas that they weren't originally from. So like how the 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:51.480 Sheriffees were moved to Oklahoma, there was attempts of my tribe, 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.879 for instance, more than Cheyenne to be moved down to 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:58.800 Oklahoma as well, and that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:02.200 in Oklahoma and and my tribes and norther Insurance in Montana. 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:07.959 Another UM. Another thing that is happening during this period 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.560 are boarding schools UM, the boarding school era. So this 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:17.520 attempt at assimilation through education UM, and assimilation is also 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:23.920 UM within within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.760 it's defined as a process where indigenous people end up 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:34.840 UM conforming to different constructed notions of UM settler norms UM. 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.720 So if they're not absorbed within the state completely, then 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:44.639 their attempted attempt to be assimilated UM culturally UM through education, 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:48.600 through languages. In terms of economics and how you have 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:53.960 a bunch of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations, 0:24:54.000 --> 0:25:02.000 trying to make tribal governments appear to be UM or 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:08.040 constructed as as settler colonial governments are UM. So maybe 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:12.520 it's the three branches UM in ways that aren't just 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:18.359 compatible with different tribes culturally, and you also have the 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:23.680 attemptive eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices, 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:30.480 and a lot of Christianity be cours not to different people, 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.920 and just kind of terrible things that UM. I think 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:37.359 more and more people are becoming aware of due to 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:40.640 due to current movements. But we'll get into that moment later. 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.440 Do we want to talk about a lot and briefly 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:48.280 because if I remember quickly, this is in the same period, yes, 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:52.639 a lotment period and UM course assimilation. So this is 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.600 like eighteen seventy one to nineteen thirty four, and so 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:58.119 this is the end of the treaty making process. So 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:03.720 the whole idea of UM trying to force tribes onto 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:08.720 reservations and signed these treaties were too again take land 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:11.200 and make sure that the United States has more land 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:15.160 and all the land etcetera that they possibly have UM. 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:22.080 So at this end of treaty making, UM federal allotment 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:26.800 of Indian lands also happened in the UM the Jaws 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:32.560 Act UM. And so what this was was an attempt 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:39.080 to UM further shrink the reservation lands that tribes are 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:45.639 already guaranteed within treaties UM. So during this period, I 0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:51.479 think that somewhere like nine million acres were UM taken 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:55.159 from tribal reservations during the allotment process. So that what 0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:58.840 the allotment process did was it counted each in every 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:03.560 individual Indian UM that was eligible. I think there were 0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:11.120 adults UM. Yeah, adults that were eligible UM, and each 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:13.679 one of them were given a certain parcel of land, 0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:19.159 a certain number of acreage UM. And once all of 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:23.000 this land was calculated, what you had was an excess 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:26.160 of land quote unquote excess of land that the tribes 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:30.320 obviously didn't need because they had still too too many people. 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:35.080 And so what the excess of land UM was utilized 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:39.520 force for pioneers and for settlers UM. If it didn't 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:44.840 go UM to the federal government, it was to UM 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:52.920 incentivized settlers to colonized, esscial settle on Indian lands. So 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:58.520 trying its hardest to not stay true to its treaty 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:01.800 making practices. I think the everything goes interesting to me 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.520 about this is that like because one of the other 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:06.159 goals of this is to sort of like, oh is 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.320 the civilizing mission. It's like, yeah, we're gonna turn them 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:12.160 into We're gonna turn these people into like like human farmers, 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.240 like true American fintiersman or whatever. And it's just like 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:18.920 it just doesn't work because economically it doesn't make any sense, 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:21.960 like breaking up all these like lands, It's like, it 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.560 doesn't you can't just give someone like a small patch 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:26.920 of like shitty land and have them farm like this 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.920 doesn't like this, it doesn't. It doesn't. Like they certainly tried, 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:33.640 and yeah, yeah, like that was one of the main things. 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:36.760 One of the main things in Canada was about getting 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:42.800 them to adopt like like European farming practices, which which 0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:45.840 they already knew how to get their own food, right, 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.320 they were trying to change this whole system of of 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:52.480 like of of food growth to to this like to 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:55.479 this European way of of farming, and it just and 0:28:55.520 --> 0:28:58.160 they were just forcing them to and there's yeah, it's 0:28:58.160 --> 0:29:02.400 it's yeah, gets it gets it gets super gets super 0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:04.720 like dark and horrible once you like look at like 0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:07.280 the letters that were being written by like the heads 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:11.280 of these programs, um, like you know, instructing, like these 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:14.479 agents were stationed at these like reservations that to like 0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:17.800 force people to be doing doing this horrible farming for 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:22.000 like all day every day. And I think, you know, 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:27.240 the sign that this was like like this is this 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:30.120 is so bad that even the US government eventually is 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:32.600 like wait this this like this is fucked up and 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:36.160 doesn't work. So I think that's yeah, you're transition to 0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:41.880 sort of like the next phase. I guess, yeah, a 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:46.680 very short phase. Um. Yeah. So the next phase um 0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:50.360 is the Indian Reorganization Act. And so this only lasted 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:54.040 six years from nineteen thirty four in nineteen forty um, 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.760 so this is when allotment ended. As you said, the 0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.600 United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. Um, 0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:02.760 what can we do? What? The Indians aren't dying off, 0:30:03.040 --> 0:30:05.920 they're not assimilating, they're not a culturating. We don't know 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:10.240 what to do with them. UM, so maybe we'll we'll 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:14.520 have them adopt these constitutions and a lot of them 0:30:15.000 --> 0:30:19.240 were just templates, so regardless of whether or not they 0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:26.560 were um, I think compatible with tribal different tribes way 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:30.560 of life. They were like, you have these constitutions now, um, 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:33.520 now you're you're a tribe, and this is what each 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:35.640 tribe has to look like in order for us the 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:40.200 federal government to recognize you as a legitimate entity. Uh 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:44.239 and um. And then so you have the establishment of 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:48.240 these um tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:53.400 the business committees, etcetera. However, this period is fleeting, very 0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:58.640 fleeting UM. And next UM, you have the termination era. 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:02.600 So this is the period of time where the federal 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:07.520 government essentially even more so, wants to just get rid 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:10.640 of the quote unquote Indian problem, which is the existence 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:16.400 of indigenous peoples UM that are reminders to the government 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:19.880 essentially that um, they are a settler colonial force and 0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:21.760 they don't know what to do with us because they 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:26.000 tried to commit genocide, they tried to remove us, etcetera, etcetera. 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:31.480 It's still not working. Um. They decided that our travel 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:36.000 governments UM aren't aren't legitimate, and they just decide, well, 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:40.400 it's too much to try to keep up with our 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:47.880 treaties and what we promised them. When it comes to healthcare, education, housing, etcetera, etcetera. 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:52.600 How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility 0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:55.480 that are delineated in federal in the policy and in 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:58.720 our treaties, UM and give them off to this to 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:01.360 the states to decide what to do with and says. 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:05.680 During this period you see um sort of the federal 0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:13.040 um dissolution of some tribes such as the monomy Um 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:20.920 and other ones um as well. So this is another 0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:23.880 dark time there. The dark times just keep on coming. 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:29.840 And what federal policy scholars have UM characterized federal undw 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:33.120 policy as a pendulum the swinging swinging from side to 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:39.240 side between this terminal, this termination of tribes, So the 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.640 federal Indian government as trying to get rid of tribes, 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:44.960 especially as you can see in this era, and then 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:47.920 the pendulum of the other side of self determination. But 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:51.320 both of these are held within the context of goals 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:59.200 of assimilation. So um, this is just another phase of terribleness. Well, 0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:02.120 I think this space also like one thing I think 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:06.800 that also like is important people understand is it like 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:09.440 like it's not like people aren't fighting this like the 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.480 whole time, I mean even going like even going back 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:14.840 to the stuff the Seventh Cafrey, like the Seventh Cavalry, 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:18.360 lose like bores. They lose bells all the time. People 0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:22.160 are fighting constantly. And this is this period determination period 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:25.880 is also where you see the rise of the American 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:28.880 Indian movements. Yeah, a lot of these periods can be 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:33.880 like dovee into more and all of these different things, um. 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.240 And every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy, 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:41.760 you have resistance, which we are not covering here right now, um, 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:46.920 but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:51.520 fought for their rights to land, to um, for their community, 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:56.640 to being sovereign nations, etcetera. And that's why the federal Indians, 0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:00.000 the federal government, not Federal Indian government, the federal government, 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:03.480 it has not been able to eradicate us, much to 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:08.880 their dismay, um UM. And so now I'm going to 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:13.120 switch into the eraw that we are considered to be in, 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:17.120 which I have mentioned when I talked about the pendulum 0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:20.239 of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:26.280 self determination era, um, which began in nineteen sixty two, UM, 0:34:26.320 --> 0:34:28.920 and we have um the right it's characterized with the 0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:34.000 revitalization of tribal entities. So UM, going kind of back 0:34:34.040 --> 0:34:37.560 to when there was the Indian Reorganization Acts that we 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:41.600 have our tribal councils. UM, there's restoration of some tribes 0:34:41.719 --> 0:34:46.520 under federal recognition who are terminated, again not all of them. 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:51.440 We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act, so this 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:58.720 this kind of guaranteed individual Indians UM some rights UM, 0:34:58.719 --> 0:35:01.040 not just characterized by their trib I've also the self 0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:06.719 determination policy, so this is when UM Nixon condemned determination 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:12.080 policy and gave more control to Indians rather than the 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:15.439 Bureau of Indian Fairs, which is a federal bureau. And 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:20.040 just kind of like other policies that UM have given 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:25.160 the tribes more rights to UM determine for themselves in 0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:29.040 their own trust, their own people, UM to a certain 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:33.000 degree underneath the federal government as a mess of dependent nations. 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:37.399 And again I think that we have seen a lot 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:43.239 more movement, but within the context of being within a 0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:49.279 settler colonial state. UM. It's always I think a possibility 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.920 that the federal Indian government or the federal government I 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:58.239 keep saying Indian, the federal government will try UM to 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:02.520 take more and more and I think UM, for instance, 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:08.000 when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:12.000 UM hunting rights with states, not even just with the 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.280 federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:19.920 throughout history but still ongoing UM that attempt to encroach 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:24.440 on UM tribal treaties UM. And again, treaties are the 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:30.760 basis of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, that lands 0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:34.200 would have never been succeeded to the United States. And 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:41.000 so UM there's just this sort of like legal legal 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:45.440 conundrum I would say, of where all these all treaties 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:47.920 in the history of the United States with India, with 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.680 Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:57.200 form UM. But still UM American Indians have to live 0:36:57.239 --> 0:37:00.359 on their reservations instead of having their their land back. 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:04.680 And so nowadays a lot of movement has been towards 0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:09.280 UM land back. What this means, what is this process? 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:11.120 And I think it means a lot of different things 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:17.960 for different people indigenous people because again there's there's seventy 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:23.520 four federally recognized tribes and so it's not one monolith 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:26.440 of ideas, the monolith of the beliefs. But but just 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:30.120 by saying land back, that's like recognition that this is 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:33.360 our this was our land first, and you're not keeping 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.919 your side of the deal and never have been. Could 0:37:37.000 --> 0:37:39.680 you maybe go a bit more into land back with 0:37:39.800 --> 0:37:42.360 the topic, because like specifically, like the past five years, 0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:47.560 it has really gain a lot more like um popularity 0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:51.520 as like a slogan UM. But I think for a 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.560 lot of a lot of people who chanted and here 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:58.960 it don't always really know exactly what it means. That 0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:01.560 there's a lot of like mixed opinions on what it 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:05.960 means UM. Of course, on like the more like reactionary side, 0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:08.040 it's like people be like, what you're going to like 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:10.960 kick white people out of these areas? Like that's kind 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.160 of that's what a lot of like the reactionary takes 0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:16.439 on land back is UM. And I'm sure most people 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:19.800 are listening to this podcast that's not what they think, UM, 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:23.480 but they may not really know exactly what it means either. UM. 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:25.920 They may think it sounds like a good idea, but 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:27.799 they're not quite sure what it is. Do you mind 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.600 kind of talking about how land back is like developed 0:38:30.640 --> 0:38:34.440 as as an idea and what like what like you 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.600 mean by it personally? At least, Yeah, I think I 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:40.160 can talk about more about like what I mean by 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.560 it personally and what I've understood it to mean to 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:48.520 other people, because I think UM land back itself, it 0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:51.000 means like a lot of different things, and I don't 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:56.840 think that there has been a concrete kind of idea 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.840 of what it means. But I think a lot of 0:38:59.880 --> 0:39:02.560 the movement I want to contextualize it within a lot 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:07.360 of the sort of act activism that we've seen in 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:11.279 their recent years. Um SO for instance, no Japple the 0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:15.399 Dakota Access Pipeline in two thousand and sixteen, and kind 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:19.800 of I think that's one of the more recent events 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.719 that have really illustrated on a wide scale, like globally 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:30.480 about UM indigenous movements, UM sovereignty movements, and especially when 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:34.279 it comes to environmental justice. But what you saw there 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:41.200 was encroachment on tribal treaty land within UM that we 0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:43.440 when it had to do with the Dakota Access Pipeline. 0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:47.120 Um so, although it didn't cross some of the current 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:50.600 reservation borders, it was in treaty land, you know that 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:53.879 kind of thing. The same thing was Stop line three, 0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:56.920 how it encroached on the hunting land and the farmland 0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:00.680 that was not technically in that like residential sholl like 0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:03.239 like um like like not in like the reservation area 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:06.200 where people live, but it's in the surrounding area that 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.640 is for hunting that is specified in the treaty. So 0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:12.520 people trying to use these loopholes to get the pipelines 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.439 through right, right. And so I think what you see 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:19.960 is a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:23.480 not new. This has never been new, and a lot 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:26.360 of tribes can relate to that. And what you've seen 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:29.439 and what I've hoped that I've highlighted throughout this kind 0:40:29.440 --> 0:40:33.600 of very brief overview of federally new policy is the 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:40.239 different ways that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:46.359 been attacked in different forms by settler and colonial governments. Um. 0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:49.080 And I think that the day and age that we 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.000 live in now has allowed for um, sort of more 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:58.239 widespread solidarity, especially over social media. UM. And so when 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.239 we say land back for me, how I interpret it 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:06.120 as what people mean when they're saying it is recognition 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.600 of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:12.959 that has not been respected. And then I also think 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:18.200 that it means well, if these treaties aren't being respected, 0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:23.600 then how is this treaty still UM valid? Right? How 0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:25.920 come we aren't getting our land back because you're not 0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:29.240 upholding your end of the deal. While some people also 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:33.880 might mean and recognize that this whole United States government 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:37.400 is a settler state, right based on the doctrine of discovery, 0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:45.960 which is based on denying tribes and American Indians of 0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:50.080 their rights to this land. UM, So some people might 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:52.439 take it to this whole other context of yeah, well 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.920 maybe this is this is all of our land, etcetera, etcetera. 0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:59.239 But in practice, what does this look like? And I 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.800 think in practice a lot of people UM are seeing 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:08.320 it with reparations or people buying land back for tribes 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:10.680 and giving it back to tribes. And we have seen 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:14.480 some of that or um also just people interrupting the 0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:18.520 narrative UM in their own mind of their euro American identity, 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:25.080 so non non UM American Indians and primarily European settlers 0:42:25.120 --> 0:42:29.000 and their history of their own families taking part of 0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:33.440 the settler colonial process, and how has that um what 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:39.320 about their lands? There's everyone who UM descends I guess 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:42.120 from these these settlers, and I want to be specific 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:46.120 when I'm talking about euro American settlers um, um, and 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:50.399 how they currently benefit from these systems. And I think 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:54.520 by saying land back, UM, it's we're able to highlight 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:59.840 this movement for tribal sovereignty and recognition on a global 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:03.760 scale instead of searching for justice within the quote unquote 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.640 like UM, searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror. 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:11.000 How how do we expect um for the conqueror to 0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:15.400 be held accountable for all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation, 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.840 et cetera. By taking it more towards a global scale, 0:43:18.880 --> 0:43:22.239 such as no Adapple, highlighting these two other people as 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:27.960 these are injustices, UM, this is this is ongoing genocide. 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:33.000 I think that land back has many, like a plethora 0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:37.480 of meanings in the in that sense. Yeah, yeah, I 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:41.279 hope that answers your question. I myself, UM might use 0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:47.360 it in in some some different ways. UM, because land, 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:52.000 as we conceive it to be property kind of grew. 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:57.839 That concept grew in conversation with Euro American Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:02.440 conceptions of property. So I think that UM, moving forward, 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:05.640 when we talk about de colonization as a process and 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:11.479 not like a metaphor, UM, that thinking of land back 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.920 not within that whole idea of your American property as well. 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:20.160 That's that's kind of another thing to consider. Yeah, I 0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:21.879 think I think lend back would just be a whole 0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:27.439 other thing that will pay someone more qualified than our 0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:32.279 team to talk about on this show. UM. Because Yeah, 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:34.479 that's definitely, like you know, like all of the things 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:38.480 we've we've discussed, they deserve their own deep dives by 0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:43.880 people that are uh not me, Robert and Chris. UM. 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:48.760 Let's see, is there any kind of resources either books 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:52.040 or stuff online that you would recommend for people wanting 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:55.600 to learn more about this history? UM? And then any 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:58.799 kind of ways to I don't know, I I guess 0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:01.480 show support in these and these kind of like efforts 0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:06.040 that are going on. Yeah, for sure. UM. So in 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:11.880 terms of resources and reading, UM, I have read Lorenzo 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:17.919 Verrocchini's UM Settler book on Settler Colonialism. UM. That's really 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:21.760 helpful when you're trying to understand that framework in terms 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:24.920 of getting to know kind of more of the basics 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:31.600 of like current UM issues impacting tribes. UM. The National 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:34.160 Congress of American Indians does a lot of work on 0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:37.439 the federal level. UM. If you want to talk more 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:43.080 about UM kind of lived current lived experiences of American Indians. 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:49.719 There's illuminatives UM and getting more involved in those as well. 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.600 I think that they have some tips, but I would 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:56.440 recommend UM everyone getting more familiar with the land that 0:45:56.480 --> 0:46:00.239 they are on currently, the tribes within their states and 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:04.200 what they can do UM, not just on the local level, 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:08.400 but on the state level to support tribal sovereignty UM, 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:11.880 because a lot of issues UH. For instance, I worked 0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.239 on the on the state policy level in Washington and 0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:19.080 in Montana, and both of those have a significant amount 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:24.279 of tribes UM, but you have a lot of legislation 0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:28.560 that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty rights. 0:46:28.640 --> 0:46:33.120 And the thing is is UM as ugly as it 0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:41.080 may be to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:45.760 people's are listened to more within those UM contexts. So 0:46:46.600 --> 0:46:50.560 you need to get more involved on on those levels. UM. 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:56.719 What sort of like at UM nonprofit organizations UM work 0:46:56.760 --> 0:46:59.920 with your tribes or and what sort of issues are 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.520 impacting tribes And again, these are all gonna probably be 0:47:03.680 --> 0:47:12.480 surrounding travel sovereignty. So maybe it's UM fishing access, hunting rights, etcetera. UM, 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:14.600 I think that's a really good way to make some 0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:19.560 more palate, UM tangible change, to feel like you're doing 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:24.239 something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:27.560 and making sure that their voices are at the forefront. 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:33.319 And that's also applicable to the federal level, especially with 0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:36.480 as you already said, like stop line three in Minnesota, 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:42.960 contacting your legislators, etcetera, etcetera. And I think also with 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:47.240 when it comes to one of one of the larger 0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:53.080 issues besides UM, environmental justice for indigenous peoples such as pipelines, 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:57.040 you have right now missing a murdered indigenous women UM. 0:47:57.160 --> 0:48:01.560 So looking and looking into that UM a little bit 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:04.560 more and who you can support who's addressing those issues 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:12.200 along with UM. There is another movement with boarding schools 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:17.160 right now because there's been a lot of UM bodies 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:24.520 of young children UM that have been uncovered. And this 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:27.959 is not an issue that happened a long long time ago, 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:32.440 like for instance, my grandmother went to a boarding school. UM. 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:37.320 There's still schools that UM although they're not called boarding 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.359 schools right now that we're boarding schools, but are still 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:43.799 an operation under different names. Etcetera. UM, so kind of 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:48.719 familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then also there's a 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:55.160 UM national UM I think it's called the National Boarding 0:48:55.239 --> 0:49:00.080 School Healing Coalition based out of Minnesota, and UM looking 0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:03.800 into them and supporting their efforts UM with this issue 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:06.560 is also a good place to start. UM. Is there 0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:14.680 anywhere that people can find you online? Yes? I don't. 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:22.759 I don't really use UM social media not much. Yeah, yeah, 0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.480 I try not to. I don't know. If I want 0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:33.919 people to find me, do not, don't, don't do it. 0:49:33.880 --> 0:49:36.839 It's better that people don't find anyone online. It's better 0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:41.560 we're all just just posting into the void. There's nothing not, 0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:45.879 just just a void. Well that that is I think 0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:50.080 going to wrap up what we have today, Chris do 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:53.000 want to close us out with a funny bit. I 0:49:54.719 --> 0:50:00.800 light your local gas station on fire. Wow? Is christ 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:07.280 killing you? Oh my god? Jeez? Wow? All right, goodbye 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:22.759 for buddy. What's terrible? My me? This is it could 0:50:22.760 --> 0:50:26.280 happen here a podcast about collapse And that's appropriate because 0:50:26.640 --> 0:50:30.240 everyone's faith in me as a colleague has collapsed today 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:33.840 as the result of a series of horrific cluster fox 0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:36.879 on my part I'm late to the meeting. I accidentally 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:39.840 left the meeting when they started recording just a just 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:43.799 a complete fucking ship show. Speaking of ship shows, my 0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:47.480 co host Garrison Davis, how are you, Harrison, I'm the 0:50:47.520 --> 0:50:49.920 one that saved this. I had to send the guest 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:52.840 to the zoom call. I know, I'm not even supposed 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:54.440 to be on this call. No you're not. You're not 0:50:54.480 --> 0:50:57.920 even supposed to be working today. That's not true. But 0:50:57.960 --> 0:50:59.719 you're not on this call, not in this call. But 0:50:59.760 --> 0:51:04.040 here am saving. This is enough. This is enough witty banter. 0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:08.920 This is a daily podcast. And now let's bring on 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:15.960 our guest for today, monsignor Alex new House. Alex, how 0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:18.799 are you doing. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:20.800 I feel like I was pulled in off the street, 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:24.240 just like bundled into a van and then yeah, yeah, 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:27.320 we uh. You know how people used to get like shanghaied, 0:51:27.480 --> 0:51:31.719 like like captured by it, allegedly allegedly and forced to 0:51:31.719 --> 0:51:34.960 work on on on boats in like San Francisco and whatnot. 0:51:35.000 --> 0:51:37.440 We do that with podcasts. I mean, that is actually 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:39.719 most of what I've done to the people who work 0:51:39.760 --> 0:51:42.600 on your podcast. I think I think I've had everyone 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:44.839 from your show on our show now, and it has 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:47.200 been very much like I'm just pulling them on a string. 0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:50.399 Speaking of which, Alex, you are one of the hosts 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:55.760 of the Terrorism Is Bad podcast, a very uh controversially 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:59.480 named podcast. Uh. And you work at the Middlebury Institute 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:03.319 of Internet National Studies at Monterey Center of Terrorism, Extremism 0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:06.399 and counter Terrorism Center on not not of that would 0:52:06.440 --> 0:52:10.120 be a different center, very important, very important. Yeah, and 0:52:10.200 --> 0:52:12.080 we're not We're not bringing you on to talk about 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:17.239 how to make explosively formed penetrators, not this time. That 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:20.400 is someone else. Yeah, but you are also you were 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:24.799 also a actual games journalist. Yes, yeah, I got my 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.960 start in this weird space. How do you How do 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:32.800 you feel about ethics in the game journalism industry? Alex? Uh? 0:52:34.400 --> 0:52:39.480 Always been fine, Like yeah, alright, anyway, that's the end 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:42.520 of that. Yeah. I do want to actually start there, Alex, 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:46.040 because you and I both have something in common, which 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:48.000 is that we we got our start writing in a 0:52:48.080 --> 0:52:52.480 field that's wildly different from consulting with like governments on terrorism. 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:55.719 Like for me, it was I wanted to write like 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:58.440 Dick jokes on the Internet, and I just like stumbled 0:52:58.440 --> 0:53:00.919 into a bunch of ices propaganda to that most people 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:04.480 weren't aware of. And and that started me like lecturing 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:07.000 at universities and ship and for you it was gamer Gates. 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:09.040 I'm interested in kind of you telling your story a 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:11.160 little bit to start us off. Yeah, so I was. 0:53:11.520 --> 0:53:14.839 I was during undergrad. I enterned every summer at game 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:17.839 Spot video game website you may have heard of. It's 0:53:17.880 --> 0:53:19.600 one of the two big ones along with I g 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:21.400 n UM. And when I was doing that, I was 0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:26.840 So this was like right in the at the beginning 0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:30.520 stages of of gamer Gate really popping off. And what 0:53:30.680 --> 0:53:33.080 ended up happening is a lot of the people I 0:53:33.120 --> 0:53:35.279 worked with, a lot of my colleagues and friends were 0:53:35.320 --> 0:53:38.000 just in the blast zone. They were just targeted by 0:53:38.040 --> 0:53:42.719 the absolute ons thought of of harassment. UM, and I 0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:44.839 just had a curiosity started looking into some of those 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.480 people who were who are targeting my friends and colleagues, 0:53:47.480 --> 0:53:49.000 and it ended up being a lot of the people 0:53:49.000 --> 0:53:51.279 that were still talking about today. Uh you know, it 0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:55.040 all all rolls back up to the bright bart metropolitan area, 0:53:55.400 --> 0:53:59.440 if you will. And um, I don't know what are 0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:02.600 the thing that made me want to I mean, obviously 0:54:02.600 --> 0:54:03.719 I've been aware of your work for well, but the 0:54:03.719 --> 0:54:05.480 thing that maybe want to specifically bring you on as 0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:07.839 you started on a new project to create like a 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.600 video game that that will hopefully have an ability to 0:54:11.600 --> 0:54:14.479 help like de radicalize people. And I'm I'm not entirely 0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:16.520 certain like of the details of the project, but I 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:20.000 think it's a fascinating project because, as as you note 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:23.440 all too well, a lot of this stuff started in gaming, 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:25.600 not as a result of anything specifically about gaming, but 0:54:25.640 --> 0:54:28.520 the kind of like socialization that occurs in those spaces 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:31.600 and the kind of like different communities, and it's been 0:54:31.640 --> 0:54:33.920 like we have going back to the nineties evidence of 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:37.000 like different Nazi groups on the early Internet, like talking 0:54:37.040 --> 0:54:40.239 about like these are specifically specific groups and subcultures that 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:42.600 you know will have an easier time radicalizing and whatnot. 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:45.640 But yeah, I'm interested in kind of what actually is 0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:48.480 going on with this project, um, and and how you 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:50.320 think it's going to look at this stage. I understand 0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:52.920 it's pretty early in development right now, so I'm not expecting, like, 0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:58.200 you know, an E three walkthrough, Yeah, our E three, 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.120 I wish we had that. Um. We won a grant 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:05.520 from DHS and FEMA, their their Terrorism Prevention Grand Program 0:55:05.560 --> 0:55:08.279 this year. We just got awarded it like literally two 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:11.279 weeks ago, so I have not even started work on 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:15.080 it at all. But the project will be a collaboration 0:55:15.160 --> 0:55:19.239 between my center and a nonprofit games development company called 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:22.640 the Eye Thrive Foundation. UH. And basically what we are 0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:26.560 going to do is like build digital scenarios, digital narratives 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:30.400 that can be engaged with UH within classroom settings. So 0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:33.360 we're targeting high schools for rolling this out UH. And 0:55:33.400 --> 0:55:35.239 the idea is that we're going to give students the 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.960 ability to take on roles that empower them to better 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:42.520 understand how extremism and radicalization work as mechanisms, which will 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:45.480 hopefully the idea is that it will it will improve 0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:48.359 resilience and you know, civil integrity and all those fun 0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:52.719 buzzwords within within high school communities. So we're not necessarily 0:55:52.719 --> 0:55:55.640 trying to de radicalize already radicalize people, but we're really 0:55:55.680 --> 0:56:00.920 trying to build community awareness, community resilience to too radicalization pathways. 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:04.360 I mean, this is something I think about constantly because 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:06.000 I get asked this a lot. You know, I'll get 0:56:06.000 --> 0:56:08.640 I'll get emailed questions from people, sometimes as much detail 0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:10.640 as like hey, I'm like a teacher and here's some 0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:12.640 things this kid in my classes set or something he 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:14.840 put in an essay, and like, I'm growing really concerned 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:17.560 about him, and like, I, I, what do I do? 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:19.680 And my usual answer is, you know, there's a couple 0:56:19.719 --> 0:56:22.960 of people who I respect that I'll try to direct 0:56:22.960 --> 0:56:25.400 them to. But I I don't. I'm pretty good at 0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:28.319 how people get radicalized. It's something I spent a lot 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:31.880 of time studying. I don't know how how you I 0:56:31.920 --> 0:56:34.040 have trouble figuring out how to break down these pathways 0:56:34.040 --> 0:56:36.880 because like, right, the the default for a lot of 0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:38.200 people and for a lot of time has been will 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:40.640 you d platform? Right? You um, you get them off 0:56:40.680 --> 0:56:42.680 of whatever. And there's there's still I do certainly think 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:45.400 there's there's utility in that. But there's also you know, 0:56:45.440 --> 0:56:48.160 the toothpaste tube effect, the fact that when you you 0:56:48.200 --> 0:56:51.120 squash these popular areas where they're able to spread them, 0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:55.320 they filter off into increasingly isolated communities that developed new terms, 0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:57.560 they find out ways to hide it, and that actually 0:56:57.600 --> 0:57:00.520 increases you know, it may it may reduce the number 0:57:00.560 --> 0:57:03.000 of people who get radicalized, but the people who remain 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:05.560 just get more and more extreme because they're even more 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:09.279 isolated from you know, everyone else, And I don't know, 0:57:09.400 --> 0:57:12.520 how do you do how do you how do you 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:15.839 break that that radicalization cycle? Like, how do you how 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:18.280 do you stop that ship before it gets, you know, 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:21.200 to a tipping point? Yeah, I mean, in general, I'm 0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:24.400 with you, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of de 0:57:24.480 --> 0:57:28.720 radicalization strategies. Uh. And it's it's like an incredibly difficult 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:31.680 task to to pull someone out who's already going down 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:33.840 these pathways. And then, like you said, it's also an 0:57:33.840 --> 0:57:35.840 incredibly difficult task to make sure that when you are 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:39.840 disrupting the radicalization networks that they aren't just disappearing off 0:57:39.840 --> 0:57:41.840 to some other corner of the Internet, which we know 0:57:41.880 --> 0:57:44.320 they're doing. Like, one of the reasons why we're we're 0:57:44.440 --> 0:57:47.760 working with a video game video game company is over 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:50.640 the last few years, we've noticed a big migration into 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:55.520 video game platforms, especially big social based video game platforms 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:58.560 like Roadblocks and Minecraft, which are not like, not even 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:03.880 remotely prepared deal with, you know, very well developed sophisticated 0:58:03.920 --> 0:58:07.360 radicalization networks. They have moved over there, h both for 0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:12.480 organization and radicalization reasons. Um, Since mainstream companies have started 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:15.240 taking more of an interest in deep platforming them. Uh 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:18.920 and so we're ending up like pretty wildly unprepared for 0:58:18.960 --> 0:58:22.080 this sudden onslought of extremists being right in front of 0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:24.520 kids as they're playing games or you know, teenagers or 0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:28.960 even young adults. So our idea essentially is to use 0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:32.240 that language, the same language that extremists are trying to 0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:36.200 adopt the structures of video games three via the sort 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:42.080 of interactivity there, to better communicate the impacts of extremism, 0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:44.800 what it looks like, how to identify it, and hopefully 0:58:44.800 --> 0:58:47.920 how to avoid getting you know, falling into the traps 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:51.880 that are laid uh for for unsuspecting people. One of 0:58:51.920 --> 0:58:54.920 the issues and I'm curiously thoughts on this because we 0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:57.800 we we talk a lot about, like I think people 0:58:57.800 --> 0:59:01.720 have become increasingly aware of how bad Facebook in particulars 0:59:01.840 --> 0:59:03.439 is a problem with this. It's it's really well real 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:05.840 a lot of the boogaloo movement to and now this 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:08.360 stuff is coming out about like the data Facebook has 0:59:08.360 --> 0:59:10.360 had on just and this isn't this isn't this is 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:14.880 adjacent to radicalization, Um, the mental impact that it's been 0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:17.680 having on teenagers right, like the just how bad it 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:21.840 is for people, and UM, I'm wondering, like how do 0:59:21.920 --> 0:59:24.080 you scale this stuff? I guess is the question like 0:59:24.120 --> 0:59:26.800 how do you actually how do you make the social 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:31.560 internet less dangerous? Yeah? I mean that's that's going to 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:35.040 be extremely tough. And we are even starting very very small, 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:37.760 like we're building We're building on a narrative platform to 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:40.959 target three high schools right now. Um. But the hope 0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:43.720 is that ultimately what we can do is build a 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:47.120 tool set and and a platform like literally a game 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:49.680 platform that can be used by high school teachers in 0:59:49.760 --> 0:59:53.560 high school classes throughout the country or throughout the world. Um. 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:56.760 The idea will be to hopefully make a new sort 0:59:56.760 --> 1:00:01.720 of package of different methods and interactive experiences that can 1:00:01.760 --> 1:00:06.160 be reused into the future. But it is one of 1:00:06.200 --> 1:00:08.920 the big open questions that we will hopefully come to 1:00:08.960 --> 1:00:11.120 some sort of answer for throughout the project about how 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:14.480 do we actually scale this up? Um? But you know, 1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:18.000 in general, it is again like one of the biggest 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:20.200 open questions right now. One of the reasons why I's 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:22.880 so skeptical of a lot of d RAD and CBE 1:00:23.520 --> 1:00:27.280 techniques is they try to go for scale about effectiveness, um, 1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:29.920 when in reality, one of the best and only de 1:00:30.000 --> 1:00:33.920 radicalization pathways that we know of involves people that you 1:00:33.960 --> 1:00:36.080 know and I know going out and meeting with these 1:00:36.080 --> 1:00:42.680 people one on one and having intensive, frequent communications with them. So, um, 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:44.400 there's as far as we know, there's not a good 1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:46.840 answer right now. This is a huge place of research 1:00:46.920 --> 1:00:48.880 right now because we should just straight up do not 1:00:49.000 --> 1:00:53.600 understand how to scale up um radicalization, prevention and de radicalization. 1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:57.360 I mean in what you know, what you're trying to do, 1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:00.200 and like reaching kids in high school in something it's 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.960 meant they're meant to be consuming while they're in school 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:05.920 is even such an additional challenge because I think you 1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:07.720 and I are both young enough to at least remember 1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:11.640 that like almost nothing that you put before kids in 1:01:11.680 --> 1:01:14.520 that context in a school gets through. I can. I can. 1:01:14.560 --> 1:01:17.080 I can think about like anti drug programs and stuff 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:18.720 when I was a kid, and how ineffective they were. 1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:21.920 There was I had one one effective anti drug like 1:01:22.320 --> 1:01:24.280 speech by a teacher and it was just a teacher 1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:27.160 who whose son was part of this this There was 1:01:27.160 --> 1:01:29.120 this one night and plane where like six kids indeed 1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:31.439 on heroin. It was there was big Rolling Stone article 1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:33.480 about it was a very famous moment, and her son 1:01:33.560 --> 1:01:35.280 was one of the kids who nearly died and she 1:01:35.400 --> 1:01:38.360 was and she like just explained like physically what happened 1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:40.600 to him and begged us not to do heroin, And 1:01:40.640 --> 1:01:43.240 that actually did stick with me. I've never never shot 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:46.840 up anything, um, but you know, like the a lot 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:49.120 of it doesn't work. And I think part of why 1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:51.920 it's this thing I talked about when I tried to 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:54.960 explain like why isis propaganda was so effective, it's the 1:01:55.560 --> 1:01:59.040 it feels more authentic than the than the counter narrative, 1:01:59.160 --> 1:02:02.360 right the counter narrati of because it's it's usually focus grouped, 1:02:02.360 --> 1:02:04.160 it's coming as the result of like some sort of 1:02:04.160 --> 1:02:06.160 government initiative, a bunch of people working in together. It 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:10.800 feels focus grouped as opposed to there's something inherently more 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:14.160 compelling about something that just like feels like somebody who 1:02:14.240 --> 1:02:17.000 really gave a ship, cares a lot put this thing together, 1:02:17.040 --> 1:02:19.480 even if it's terrible. And I that strikes me as 1:02:19.480 --> 1:02:21.760 a really because if you're going to be scaling something 1:02:21.760 --> 1:02:23.280 and trying to reach a lot of people, it's going 1:02:23.320 --> 1:02:26.120 to have to be something that is put together at 1:02:26.200 --> 1:02:29.320 scale by an organization. And how do you. I mean, 1:02:29.360 --> 1:02:31.120 I know this must be on your mind as you're 1:02:31.120 --> 1:02:32.720 trying to figure out how to craft this thing. I'm 1:02:32.760 --> 1:02:34.720 just interested in your thoughts on that. Really, yeah, I 1:02:34.760 --> 1:02:37.960 mean that exact challenge challenges what led us to proposing 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:40.720 the project project that we are, so the idea behind it, 1:02:41.160 --> 1:02:44.120 or the the impetus behind what we did what we 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:48.480 proposed is, um, the exact problem of students just don't 1:02:48.560 --> 1:02:51.920 listen to people in whether that's anti drug programs or 1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:57.440 anything like that. Often, my uh my uh feeling about 1:02:57.480 --> 1:02:59.600 it is they are often resistant to it because it's 1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:01.960 very negative. It's very don't do this, don't do this. 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:06.560 I'm setting up boundaries for for kids and analysts to 1:03:06.600 --> 1:03:11.720 act within. It's all very declaratory, very you know, commanding. Um, 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:15.960 there's no there's no sense of treating kids like people 1:03:16.040 --> 1:03:20.000 who have control, who have interests, who have motivations. It's 1:03:20.000 --> 1:03:23.520 all attempting to restrict them. And so the idea is 1:03:23.560 --> 1:03:25.640 that we're going to attempt to build a game platform 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:29.440 that actually empower students to operate within roles that have control, 1:03:29.560 --> 1:03:32.800 that that have something to say, to give them, voices 1:03:33.120 --> 1:03:36.080 to give them um and that sort of feeling of 1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:41.000 being an established UM person within a within a certain scenario. Um. 1:03:41.040 --> 1:03:42.640 The way that I've been thinking about it is that 1:03:42.680 --> 1:03:45.960 we're basically merging video games with like the structure of 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:48.840 a model you in conference or something like that. Hopefully 1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:51.080 we'll be a little less nerdy than Model U in conferences. 1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:55.120 But that's the idea of giving people power to make decisions. Uh, 1:03:55.160 --> 1:04:01.760 and and treat them like actual, you know, operating humans. Yeah, 1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:04.480 I uh, I'm wondering do you have any kind of 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:06.400 models that you're looking at when you think of like 1:04:07.000 --> 1:04:09.080 something that you see is is kind of worth I 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:11.240 don't emulating maybe the wrong word, but like, oh, these 1:04:11.280 --> 1:04:14.600 people I think got it right and and this was effective? 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:17.360 Like or is this really a situation where you feel 1:04:17.440 --> 1:04:19.840 like we're kind of in the fucking wilderness here. There's 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:22.480 not a lot of great models for what's effective. We 1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:27.000 are very much in the wilderness. What I was expecting 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:30.680 you to say, Like, so much of CV and d 1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:34.160 rad work of the last ten years has been directly 1:04:34.200 --> 1:04:37.560 towards trying to essentially recreate that, like the Dare model 1:04:37.640 --> 1:04:41.360 or the anti drug model, just in a different field. Um. 1:04:41.440 --> 1:04:45.120 And so we're going to be pulling from scenario builders 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:48.680 and like mall un and debate and like all these 1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:51.000 different models that seem to at least work to get 1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:55.320 kids engage with like operating that sort of situation. But 1:04:55.440 --> 1:04:59.000 it is going to be pretty I mean, at least 1:04:59.000 --> 1:05:00.920 from what I understands, going be pretty new. We're going 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:03.440 to be out there really flying blind for a lot 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:06.520 of it UM, but we will. You know, we have 1:05:06.760 --> 1:05:08.640 a pilot phase built in to try to bay to 1:05:08.720 --> 1:05:11.280 test this with with UM some of the students were 1:05:11.560 --> 1:05:15.440 incorporating students and instructors in the actual creation development stage, 1:05:15.880 --> 1:05:19.320 so that'll be another hopefully good part of this will 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:23.960 we'll give some students experience with the game development process, 1:05:24.720 --> 1:05:27.080 which I think will help engage them as well. That 1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:30.720 strikes me as a particularly good idea of like giving 1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:32.880 and also just giving them some agency. So it's not 1:05:32.920 --> 1:05:36.000 like this is a thing that you are forced to consume, 1:05:36.240 --> 1:05:38.520 Like this is the thing that you can like learn 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:42.680 something from. I think that's that's very important. I'm interested 1:05:42.680 --> 1:05:45.720 in how you see how you see this because like 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:48.080 again we kind of both got in around the same time. 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:51.160 Gamer Gate is when I started paying attention to radicalization 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:53.840 to how do you think it's changed since then? How 1:05:53.840 --> 1:05:55.880 do you think like the nature of of how, particularly 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:58.720 like younger people are being radicalized is changed. And I 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:00.920 guess I'm also interested because I get the feeling that 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:04.680 back then it was mostly younger people getting radicalized and 1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:07.480 that's no longer the case. Just as we're talking, I 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:09.760 just came across the video on Twitter of a group 1:06:09.760 --> 1:06:12.760 of anti vax protesters chasing parents and children away from 1:06:12.760 --> 1:06:15.600 an elementary school and screaming at them that they're raping 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.480 their kids with a vaccine. So clearly the problem is expanded. 1:06:18.640 --> 1:06:21.520 But yeah, yeah, And honestly one of the things that 1:06:21.600 --> 1:06:23.640 keeps me up at night is when we start, if 1:06:23.840 --> 1:06:26.000 you know, knocking movies are able to roll this out 1:06:26.040 --> 1:06:28.880 to more schools, we're going to run into some probably 1:06:29.000 --> 1:06:33.680 very resistant parents who have radicalized. Yum. Yeah, I mean 1:06:33.960 --> 1:06:35.400 the big one is, like what you said, like the 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:41.080 radicalization demographics have vastly expanded to incorporate so many more 1:06:41.080 --> 1:06:43.640 different types of people, so many more ages and even 1:06:43.680 --> 1:06:48.120 ethnicities and genders. Um. But what we do know is 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:51.520 that the hardcore of the of the violent extremists are 1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:56.680 still targeting adolescents. Um. We know accelerationists, for instance, hang 1:06:56.680 --> 1:07:00.720 out and try to essentially black pill about of teens, 1:07:01.120 --> 1:07:04.640 especially autistic teens, specially teens with mental health issues, UH, 1:07:04.720 --> 1:07:09.200 and bring them into a more violent, more accelerationist posture. UM. 1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:11.800 So I mean, I think that has sort of stayed 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:16.680 constant throughout all of this. One of the big UH 1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:20.400 changes has been platforms. You know, ten years ago, it 1:07:20.480 --> 1:07:22.760 was much easier for a neo Nazi to operate openly 1:07:22.800 --> 1:07:28.520 on YouTube or Facebook, but that has thankfully changed. UM. 1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:31.640 But they have spread out into like I mentioned earlier, 1:07:31.680 --> 1:07:34.040 they've spread out into video games. They spread out into 1:07:34.040 --> 1:07:38.280 other sorts of platforms where the social aspect isn't necessarily 1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:41.440 the first part of the platform, but rather a secondary 1:07:41.440 --> 1:07:45.040 aspect to it, and they try to engage UM adolescence 1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:47.400 on their own turf on you know, in a Roadblocks 1:07:47.440 --> 1:07:50.800 game or in a in a video game forum. Out there, 1:07:51.760 --> 1:07:53.920 it's not even enough to say it feels like the 1:07:54.280 --> 1:07:58.439 task of reducing radicalization or or not not even mentioned 1:07:58.480 --> 1:08:01.200 pulling it back, just stopping the prod. This feels not 1:08:01.280 --> 1:08:03.200 just like whack a mole, but like whack a mole 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:07.120 when you're surrounded by moles. UM and I guess that 1:08:07.200 --> 1:08:08.640 is the thing that keeps me up at night the 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:12.680 most too, is that like the problem has gotten because 1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:15.000 of how social media scales, I think, in large part, 1:08:15.040 --> 1:08:18.599 has gotten so much worse than it ever was. And 1:08:18.680 --> 1:08:22.440 the I see these crowds of adults, you know, assembling 1:08:22.640 --> 1:08:26.040 in you know, places like Los Angeles and showing up 1:08:26.080 --> 1:08:30.080 outside of schools to her ask people, and like, I 1:08:30.080 --> 1:08:34.719 don't know what, I don't know what to do about that. 1:08:35.080 --> 1:08:41.240 Like part of me thinks, um, part of me thinks 1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:44.880 that the only effective long term answer is to mobilize 1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:50.840 a larger number of people two show up to you know, 1:08:50.920 --> 1:08:53.599 not necessarily confront those people, but make them make them 1:08:53.640 --> 1:08:56.160 feel outnumbered, and maybe they'll stop, and that will start 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:59.200 a process where they they alter their thinking. Like I'm 1:08:59.200 --> 1:09:01.000 thinking kind of back to in some aspects of the 1:09:01.000 --> 1:09:03.000 civil rights movement here right where you would have these 1:09:03.000 --> 1:09:05.280 people show up at schools just try to stop integration 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:08.400 and whatnot, and they would be opposed often by by 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:10.280 larger groups that they would see the size of the 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:12.360 marches in the street. And like, I don't know, I 1:09:12.360 --> 1:09:14.280 don't even know if it works that way anymore. Like 1:09:14.360 --> 1:09:17.720 knowing that you know, tend to one, people think your 1:09:17.760 --> 1:09:20.160 stance on vaccines is stupid, and they're willing to show 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:22.479 up to like yell at you if that would do anything. 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:24.720 But I don't know what. I don't know what's going 1:09:24.760 --> 1:09:28.280 to do. Like I guess I'm asking you, like, can 1:09:28.320 --> 1:09:30.000 you have you figured this out? Because I don't know 1:09:30.040 --> 1:09:33.040 what the funk to do? Um, But it's it's it's 1:09:33.120 --> 1:09:36.240 not you can't we can't close our obviously you're someone 1:09:36.280 --> 1:09:38.639 who's trying to confront it directly, but we certainly can't 1:09:39.120 --> 1:09:44.759 keep ourselves like just pretend it's not going to get worse, right, No, totally, 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:48.200 And um, you know, I often feel like it's almost 1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:51.080 too far gone. And you know, frequently I worry that 1:09:51.120 --> 1:09:53.720 we've already passed some sort of you know, point of 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:58.479 no return on RODO causation, exploitation of social media. But 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:01.960 one of the other things I've also recognized is that 1:10:02.160 --> 1:10:04.960 when you're in a space that is dedicated to one 1:10:04.960 --> 1:10:10.839 type of confronting h one one method of confronting extremism, 1:10:10.960 --> 1:10:14.880 very often they will forget about, or de prioritize, or 1:10:15.080 --> 1:10:19.240 or even ignore the other types the other methods. And 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:22.880 one of the tasks before us, I think, before we 1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.160 throw up our hands and give up, is trying to 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:28.680 tie together all of the different facets of resisting extremism, 1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:33.000 from the hardcore confrontational doxing and showing up in the 1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:36.320 streets counterprotesting, which I think is an essential part of it, 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:39.400 to UM working as hard as we can to try 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:43.120 to get tech companies to to realize what's going on UH, 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:45.400 and then also on the educational side, like what we're 1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:48.200 doing with this with this project UM. Some of the 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:50.040 things that make me at least a little bit optimistic 1:10:50.120 --> 1:10:55.040 is that there is obviously inertia, both intentional and unintentional 1:10:55.120 --> 1:10:58.880 at tech companies, but frankly, they are still extremely far 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:02.200 behind in understand adding how to even do D platforming 1:11:02.200 --> 1:11:05.960 on their platforms, how to even identify WoT D platform 1:11:06.000 --> 1:11:09.639 like the majority of tech companies are still making contom 1:11:09.680 --> 1:11:14.000 moderation decisions on a piece by piece basis, specifically looking 1:11:14.040 --> 1:11:17.040 at content. Very few of them are doing actor analysis, 1:11:17.200 --> 1:11:20.400 very few of them are doing several network analysis. Very 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:22.719 few of them are looking at even the links between 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:26.519 like off platform violence and on platform content like it's 1:11:27.360 --> 1:11:29.719 the They are still very much in the stone ages 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:33.439 when it comes to contom moderation. And that's so so 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:36.400 key when I think about like what actually would reduce 1:11:36.479 --> 1:11:39.639 the harm that these platforms are doing at scale. It's 1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:43.160 focusing on the actors um and and not just like 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:45.760 the individual actors, which is part of the patterns that 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:47.640 let you tell whether or not someone is like that 1:11:47.760 --> 1:11:49.799 same actor who's kind of like putting on a different 1:11:49.800 --> 1:11:53.320 hat so to speak. Um, are you aware of like, 1:11:53.840 --> 1:11:57.679 is there any I because I have not seen that 1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:01.760 happen yet. I haven't seen Facebook take that seriously. Um, 1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:04.880 and I have I have spent some time there. I 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:08.799 haven't seen certainly haven't seen Twitter take that seriously. Um, 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:12.000 I haven't really seen. I don't believe TikTok is like 1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:16.960 they're they're they're they're just um, like you said, they're 1:12:17.000 --> 1:12:19.439 going after they're taking it on a piece bay piece basis, 1:12:19.439 --> 1:12:21.400 which is never there's too many pieces. That's never going 1:12:21.439 --> 1:12:24.760 to handle the problem. Yeah, I mean take stock is 1:12:24.800 --> 1:12:27.920 crawling right now. They're in their infancy. Um, they don't. 1:12:27.960 --> 1:12:31.000 They don't have a data sharing uh, any sort of 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:33.719 data sharing systems set up for for researchers or anything 1:12:33.760 --> 1:12:37.599 like that. Yet I've seen optimistic signals. So I think 1:12:37.680 --> 1:12:40.200 Facebook's approach to q and On and boogleoo movement over 1:12:40.240 --> 1:12:43.759 the past year has been probably the best, the most 1:12:43.760 --> 1:12:46.519 positive development we've seen on the content moderation front because 1:12:46.560 --> 1:12:50.080 they took an actual network based approach to it. It 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:52.800 was hands strung by a variety of different policy decisions, 1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:55.680 but it was still from like a from like a 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:59.519 mechanics standpoint, the most sophisticated one any of the comedies 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:02.839 is actually talked about openly. Uh and YouTube has followed 1:13:03.080 --> 1:13:06.639 in their path. They've started taking more network approaches um. 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:10.880 They they've taken moderation action against q and on on 1:13:10.920 --> 1:13:14.880 a similar basis. But the thing that I want tech 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:18.200 companies to start looking at is applying a lot of 1:13:18.240 --> 1:13:21.759 the techniques they're using for disinformation and in info ops 1:13:22.160 --> 1:13:26.080 work to extremism and radicalization. It's very similar, but right 1:13:26.120 --> 1:13:28.800 now it seems to be just easier politically or just 1:13:29.160 --> 1:13:33.559 there further along with doing the large scale network analysis 1:13:33.600 --> 1:13:36.880 approaches on this info um like Twitter is doing a 1:13:36.880 --> 1:13:40.080 lot of that, but it's all on information operations and 1:13:40.560 --> 1:13:45.040 take info yeah as opposed to yeah people Yeah. And 1:13:45.080 --> 1:13:49.320 I I worry too because I'm paying attention to kind 1:13:49.360 --> 1:13:51.559 of you know, you have this whistle blower from Facebook, 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:53.920 and how that's being politicized right, how the right is 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:56.960 kind of coming at this from a they're trying to say, like, 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:00.120 as Ben Shapira said, they're trying to to UM the 1:14:00.200 --> 1:14:04.240 sensor alternative media voices and the like. And I I 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:08.639 worry tremendously about the politicization because number one, it means 1:14:08.680 --> 1:14:12.439 that at best we've got like three years to get 1:14:12.479 --> 1:14:15.360 something together before you know, who knows whose wides up 1:14:15.360 --> 1:14:17.760 in the White House next. But also if it's just 1:14:17.840 --> 1:14:21.759 this thing of like veering between who gets who gets 1:14:22.520 --> 1:14:25.880 paid attention to UM based on like what is politically 1:14:25.960 --> 1:14:29.479 viable for Facebook, we're never going to solve the problem. 1:14:29.520 --> 1:14:32.240 And I I think I agree with you for the 1:14:32.320 --> 1:14:35.559 most part on the Facebook's response to the boogle boo movement. 1:14:36.080 --> 1:14:37.960 I mean, I guess I think the problem was that 1:14:38.040 --> 1:14:41.360 by the time they developed a functional set of responses 1:14:41.400 --> 1:14:45.000 to it UM, it had metastasized, it had grown, it 1:14:45.080 --> 1:14:47.439 had grown strong enough to exist on its own, and 1:14:47.479 --> 1:14:50.800 a lot of people have gotten exposed. What do you 1:14:50.800 --> 1:14:53.479 think is the actual is reasonable to expect in terms 1:14:53.479 --> 1:14:56.719 of response time from these people, because with boogle Ooo stuff, 1:14:56.720 --> 1:14:59.599 it was about I want to say, about three months 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:01.479 be well, no, it was more like five. It was 1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:04.400 about five months that it had from like December of 1:15:04.400 --> 1:15:07.080 twenty nineteen was when I started really noticing it. And 1:15:07.120 --> 1:15:10.000 then like you know, May at the when when stuff 1:15:10.040 --> 1:15:12.120 really kicked off with the George Floyd protests, when you 1:15:12.200 --> 1:15:16.439 started to see action taking the tail in the May. Yeah, 1:15:16.479 --> 1:15:19.800 so I guess that I'm wondering, like, what is the 1:15:19.800 --> 1:15:21.519 half life of this ship? Like how quickly do you 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:25.760 need to crack down on this stuff before it gets 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:29.599 to be impossible to contain? Uh? Yeah, I mean that's 1:15:29.720 --> 1:15:34.560 the biggest limiting factor on that effectiveness of uh contemnation 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:38.000 in general, but also in particular these new approaches that 1:15:38.000 --> 1:15:41.080 the tech companies seem to be experimenting with. UM, my 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:43.439 understanding is that part of the So I'm not I'm 1:15:43.479 --> 1:15:45.320 not defending Facebook by any stretch. I'm not here to 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:49.559 be the Facebook rallying crew. But my understanding is that 1:15:50.040 --> 1:15:54.320 they literally did develop an entirely separate approach to taking 1:15:54.320 --> 1:15:57.320 down the biblie movements. So that explains at least a 1:15:57.320 --> 1:16:01.640 little bit of the delay. But hopefully, you know, my 1:16:01.760 --> 1:16:03.880 optimistic side hopes that they will be able to apply 1:16:03.920 --> 1:16:06.559 it more quickly in the future. Um The problem is 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:09.360 a lot of the network approaches that have been developed 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:14.120 are have like these very high thresholds for attribution. So 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:17.040 it has to be like a dedicated network that has 1:16:17.040 --> 1:16:20.479 crossed the line into criminal activity and is actively calling 1:16:20.560 --> 1:16:24.120 for you know, political violence on like a network level, 1:16:24.600 --> 1:16:27.120 and that like we all know that that isn't that 1:16:27.280 --> 1:16:30.920 is like the end goal or the end point in 1:16:32.120 --> 1:16:35.800 exactly right, Like that is the terminal point of the 1:16:35.800 --> 1:16:41.040 development of these extremist networks. So you know, we're one 1:16:41.040 --> 1:16:42.680 of the one of the things that we're working on 1:16:42.760 --> 1:16:44.280 is trying to figure out a way to convince tech 1:16:44.320 --> 1:16:47.000 companies that you can and should take action earlier before 1:16:47.040 --> 1:16:49.120 it reaches that point. And it's going to be a 1:16:49.120 --> 1:16:51.720 mosaic of things. It's going to be combining violent extremism 1:16:51.720 --> 1:16:55.639 with hate speech, with even like c SAM child exploitation stuff, 1:16:55.720 --> 1:17:00.240 with um all, you know, criminal criminal conspiracy network, Paul seas. 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:02.479 All of those things need to be sort of thought 1:17:02.520 --> 1:17:06.120 of as pieces in a single, big, overarching umbrella that 1:17:06.120 --> 1:17:09.000 we can use to take down networks earlier on. But 1:17:09.560 --> 1:17:11.280 you know, it's a. It's a. That's one of the 1:17:11.320 --> 1:17:13.640 biggest tasks is just convincing them to think about it 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:20.000 much much earlier. Yeah. Um, all right, well let's I 1:17:20.040 --> 1:17:21.800 think most of what I wanted to get into today. 1:17:21.840 --> 1:17:23.439 Is there anything else you really wanted to like, kind 1:17:23.479 --> 1:17:27.160 of talk about while you're here? Um, those are the 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:30.759 those are the big ones for sure. We will hopefully 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:33.360 have more to talk about very soon. And how we're 1:17:33.400 --> 1:17:36.400 approaching this project. Um, it's going to be a pretty 1:17:36.439 --> 1:17:40.680 big project. It will take two years to implement, but um, 1:17:40.720 --> 1:17:45.000 we're pretty excited to see what comes out of it. Yeah. Um, Well, 1:17:45.080 --> 1:17:48.920 people can find you on Twitter at it's just at 1:17:48.960 --> 1:17:52.040 alex new house, right, alex B new house, alex B 1:17:52.160 --> 1:17:55.960 new house. Yeah, at alex b new House. Um, they 1:17:56.000 --> 1:18:01.519 can check out where you work at seat E, C, M, I, 1:18:01.520 --> 1:18:06.160 I s UM and yeah, I'm I'm excited to see. Well, 1:18:06.200 --> 1:18:09.400 maybe we'll have you back on when you UMU, when 1:18:09.439 --> 1:18:12.040 you you you actually put out the game. But I'm 1:18:12.040 --> 1:18:14.160 really interested in looking at that. Oh yeah, it was 1:18:14.200 --> 1:18:17.160 the last thing you brewed. Oh, I brewed a red 1:18:17.160 --> 1:18:18.920 I p A and I'm currently brewing three gallons of 1:18:18.920 --> 1:18:22.120 apple cider. Oh. Nice. We just um, we juiced ten 1:18:22.160 --> 1:18:25.000 gallons of apples and pears that I just kegged after 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:27.880 almost four weeks of fermentation that I know. I've been 1:18:27.880 --> 1:18:29.920 I've been looking at I've been looking at apple mills 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:32.800 like apple presses, and yeah I should I should just 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:35.400 buy one, And we found one to rent. Um. So 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:38.040 it's just like I don't know, thirty bucks for the day. Uh, 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:40.320 and we just gathered up all the apples on property. 1:18:40.360 --> 1:18:43.559 But it's it was rab definitely very soon. Yeah, we 1:18:43.560 --> 1:18:45.880 were juicing all of the apples the day that um 1:18:46.080 --> 1:18:50.960 tiny got shot at that protest in Olympia. So it's 1:18:50.960 --> 1:18:53.200 just like looking at the Twitter saying there's been a 1:18:53.240 --> 1:18:55.240 shooting into protests and be like, yeah, I'm glad I'm 1:18:55.280 --> 1:18:58.200 not working today. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not working today, 1:18:59.160 --> 1:19:03.320 afternoon press and this is this is a more enjoyable 1:19:03.439 --> 1:19:07.120 use of my time right now. All right, Well, Alex, 1:19:07.120 --> 1:19:09.400 thank you so much for being on. Thank you for 1:19:09.439 --> 1:19:12.840 what you're doing, and thank you all for listening. Go 1:19:13.040 --> 1:19:27.280 with you know whoever, whatever deity up to you, it 1:19:27.280 --> 1:19:33.559 could happen here, Mike is possibly anyway, I'm Robert Evans, Uh, 1:19:33.600 --> 1:19:35.519 you know who I am because you're listening to this 1:19:35.600 --> 1:19:38.120 show unless you stumbled upon this having never heard of 1:19:38.120 --> 1:19:41.040 the internet before, in which case this is a show 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:43.320 about how things are kind of falling apart, and we 1:19:43.600 --> 1:19:45.680 also try to talk every now and then about how 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:49.040 to maybe put them back together a little bit. My 1:19:49.240 --> 1:19:54.400 co host is Garrison Davis. Garrison, say hello to the people. Hello, people. 1:19:54.920 --> 1:19:58.920 I'd also like you to say hello to Sean Hi Shan. Yeah, 1:19:58.920 --> 1:20:02.080 there's a Sean somewhere up there. There's probably a few shots. Yeah, 1:20:02.479 --> 1:20:05.479 it was at least one or two. Garrison, What do we? 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:08.799 What do we? What do we? What? What? What are we? Well, 1:20:08.840 --> 1:20:11.479 we're finally doing something I've been wanting to do for 1:20:11.520 --> 1:20:14.400 a while, is branching off into kind of covering different 1:20:14.680 --> 1:20:17.599 parts of like media and culture UM that kind of 1:20:17.600 --> 1:20:21.439 relate to all of these topics UM. I know both 1:20:22.160 --> 1:20:24.720 both me, but both me a little bit and and 1:20:24.840 --> 1:20:28.360 Robert more so have worked for or have have written 1:20:28.400 --> 1:20:33.040 for UM like an online investigative journalism website called belling 1:20:33.080 --> 1:20:37.160 Cat that deals in open source UM like research and 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:40.080 one of the things that we're big fans of that 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:42.240 Belling Cat. I've talked with a few of the other 1:20:42.439 --> 1:20:45.720 people is a game called Her Story, which is a 1:20:46.320 --> 1:20:49.719 video game that has maybe one of the better better 1:20:49.760 --> 1:20:54.479 depictions of kind of open source um investigations. Uh. It's 1:20:54.560 --> 1:20:56.240 it's a it's a very it's a very good game. 1:20:56.320 --> 1:20:58.639 I highly recommended. I played it a few years ago. 1:20:59.640 --> 1:21:04.680 It was lovely and I recently Uh well, originally, when 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:07.080 I bought Her Story, I bought both that game and 1:21:07.160 --> 1:21:10.519 like a spiritual sequel called Telling Lies, which I did 1:21:10.640 --> 1:21:13.880 did not play for a while because I was too busy. Um. 1:21:13.920 --> 1:21:18.479 And then I went to the Earth First Gathering this 1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:20.240 summer and I and I came back and I had 1:21:20.240 --> 1:21:23.479 some free time, so I played Telling Lies, And because 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:25.679 of the continent of that game, I found it really interesting. 1:21:26.360 --> 1:21:28.599 Because I'm not gonna spoil tons of it, I think 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:30.360 you should play it for yourself, and part of it 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:33.439 is solving the mystery on your own. But but part 1:21:33.439 --> 1:21:38.639 of it does take place to like green environmentalism activism setting, 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:43.120 and it has one of the more honest depictions of 1:21:44.520 --> 1:21:49.120 environments like that. So I have we are we are 1:21:49.160 --> 1:21:51.920 graced with bringing on the creator of both Her Story 1:21:51.960 --> 1:21:57.360 and Telling Lies. Uh. Sam Barlow, Hello, Hey, exciting to 1:21:57.360 --> 1:22:01.559 be here. Lovely interest yeah, I I am. I'm very 1:22:01.560 --> 1:22:04.559 excited to talk with you. These games are some of 1:22:04.600 --> 1:22:06.639 my favorite things. Um. First off, I guess I would 1:22:06.680 --> 1:22:09.640 just like to kind of talk about your inspiration for 1:22:09.720 --> 1:22:12.760 this type of detective game, because it is it is 1:22:13.200 --> 1:22:18.759 unique to every other kind of investigative game out there. UM. 1:22:18.840 --> 1:22:23.360 And it's you know, very much grounded in open source research. Um. 1:22:23.439 --> 1:22:27.040 And like using computers in the real world. What what 1:22:27.160 --> 1:22:29.759 kind of got you onto that kind of storytelling concept? 1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:33.000 I mean, I think there was a whole bunch of 1:22:33.000 --> 1:22:36.559 things that all kind of sparked off at once, Like 1:22:36.640 --> 1:22:39.599 when I made Her Story. This was my first independent 1:22:39.680 --> 1:22:42.679 video game. So I've been making video games for ten 1:22:42.720 --> 1:22:47.400 plus years, um, working on other people's franchises, more traditional 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:50.040 things kind of when I started out working on like 1:22:50.160 --> 1:22:53.400 Nicolas Cage movie tients and extreme sports games and all 1:22:53.439 --> 1:22:57.200 these kind of things. Um. But at some point I 1:22:57.280 --> 1:22:59.320 got to work on the Silent Hell franchise, which is 1:22:59.720 --> 1:23:03.320 this this very cool psychological horror franchise, and it's one 1:23:03.360 --> 1:23:06.360 of the certainly at that point in time, it was 1:23:06.400 --> 1:23:09.720 one of the few kind of established gaming franchises that 1:23:10.160 --> 1:23:13.000 had a story that was interesting and took place in 1:23:13.040 --> 1:23:16.280 the real world and had characters and things, So kind 1:23:16.280 --> 1:23:19.639 of from that point, I was really digging into kind 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:23.120 of a lifelong interest in storytelling, especially what we can 1:23:23.120 --> 1:23:28.439 do with it interactively, and continue to be frustrated somewhat 1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:32.120 by working for these bigger publishers, and at one point 1:23:32.120 --> 1:23:35.080 I worked for three years I was directing and writing 1:23:35.960 --> 1:23:39.240 this this big budget video game that got canceled, and 1:23:39.280 --> 1:23:41.920 that kind of gave me a moment to kind of 1:23:42.080 --> 1:23:44.720 sit and think, like, what what do I want to do? 1:23:44.720 --> 1:23:46.120 Do I want to get on board another of these 1:23:46.160 --> 1:23:51.040 big video games. I was very frustrated at the kind 1:23:51.040 --> 1:23:54.479 of incremental change that you see in the kind of 1:23:54.520 --> 1:23:56.960 bigger budget video game space. It feels like things happened 1:23:57.000 --> 1:24:00.800 very slowly, which can be frustrating. So I was kind 1:24:00.840 --> 1:24:04.040 of looking around. This was when like iPhones, people gaming 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:05.880 on their iPhones and stuff was kind of starting to 1:24:05.880 --> 1:24:09.800 blow up. The fact that you could now distribute a 1:24:09.920 --> 1:24:14.680 game individually digitally and reach an audience was sort of 1:24:14.760 --> 1:24:16.880 changing the landscape. So I kind of felt like I 1:24:16.880 --> 1:24:21.120 should get into that. And so at its conception her 1:24:21.160 --> 1:24:24.040 story was was me going, what are all the things 1:24:24.080 --> 1:24:27.320 I've wanted to do that that I wasn't able to 1:24:27.320 --> 1:24:29.200 do when I was working with these bigger budgets, with 1:24:29.280 --> 1:24:32.479 these more established kind of gaming templates. So from the 1:24:32.520 --> 1:24:37.519 get go it was I wanted to deal with characters 1:24:37.560 --> 1:24:40.680 that essentially lived in the real world, which is a 1:24:40.680 --> 1:24:43.880 hard pitch. You know, if you're asking for big bucks, 1:24:43.960 --> 1:24:46.680 every video game has to essentially be about superhero. It 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:48.920 needs to be some kind of wish fulfillment for a 1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:53.200 teenage boy is generally what people are asking for. And 1:24:53.600 --> 1:24:57.320 the big thing with her story was subtext as someone's 1:24:57.360 --> 1:25:01.760 interesting storytelling. I was always trying to post how important 1:25:01.800 --> 1:25:04.240 subtext is and the idea that there is. You know, 1:25:04.240 --> 1:25:06.599 there are layers to a narrative that you're not spelling 1:25:06.600 --> 1:25:08.519 out for the audience that they're going to extract through 1:25:08.600 --> 1:25:11.760 performance or through whatever um And that was always a 1:25:11.800 --> 1:25:15.240 hard sell when you were kind of dealing with these 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:19.000 kind of a bigger companies that had a very simple 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:20.600 idea of what their audience was. So I wanted to 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:23.559 prove that the audience was actually smarter than we were 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:26.920 giving them credit for, and that if you gave more 1:25:26.960 --> 1:25:29.880 control to them, if you gave more of the kind 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:33.240 of work of piecing these stories together that that would 1:25:33.280 --> 1:25:35.519 be not not just something they could do, but which 1:25:35.520 --> 1:25:39.080 would actually be more interesting and more personal and um, 1:25:39.120 --> 1:25:42.080 you know, and with her story, I had a kind 1:25:42.080 --> 1:25:46.080 of lifelong love of like crime fiction and slightly more 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:49.360 kind of Gothic leaning crime fiction. And so it's like, right, 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:53.000 I'm going to create a video game which is in 1:25:53.040 --> 1:25:56.040 that world and which kind of breaks a lot of 1:25:56.040 --> 1:25:59.040 the established rules of how you might tell a story. UM. 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:03.519 And you know, a lot of that I was pulling from, Yeah, 1:26:04.479 --> 1:26:07.639 my love of some of them more kind of avant 1:26:07.640 --> 1:26:12.120 gode literally stuff interesting pieces of kind of movies and things. 1:26:12.240 --> 1:26:13.600 But it was, it was, it was pulling from a 1:26:13.680 --> 1:26:16.920 lot of different kind of storytelling traditions and ending up 1:26:16.960 --> 1:26:19.559 in this this interesting place where, like you say, it's 1:26:19.640 --> 1:26:23.760 kind of a game experience where you're essentially researching the 1:26:23.800 --> 1:26:27.200 story yourself and kind of putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah. 1:26:27.200 --> 1:26:29.440 For for people who don't know, it's like you're basically 1:26:29.840 --> 1:26:33.080 on a virtual desktop, um, and you're sorting through like 1:26:33.120 --> 1:26:37.360 a hard drive full of footage and the versatility of 1:26:37.400 --> 1:26:39.639 the game, and you know, people learning how to use 1:26:39.680 --> 1:26:42.240 like search terms, right, just like people try to use 1:26:42.280 --> 1:26:45.000 like um in open source it's called like using like 1:26:46.320 --> 1:26:49.800 Google operators. It's the same kind of the same thing. Um, 1:26:49.840 --> 1:26:51.240 But also there's like the other side of things. I 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:53.360 think a belling Cat wrote an article about your game 1:26:53.520 --> 1:26:56.400 where they like made like a Python script to scan 1:26:56.560 --> 1:26:58.880 all of the videos for specific keywords and put them 1:26:58.880 --> 1:27:01.280 into like different folders and files. So it's like you 1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:03.040 can do the thing where you just like search it, 1:27:03.120 --> 1:27:05.320 but you could like take this to a ridiculous level. 1:27:05.800 --> 1:27:07.880 You're like breaking the game open and doing it like 1:27:07.920 --> 1:27:09.960 you're actually like investigating this and you need to be 1:27:10.040 --> 1:27:13.120 very quick. Um. So I think her story is is 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:16.599 a lovely intro to this type of game concept. And 1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:22.240 then for Telling Lies, you kind of changed, you change 1:27:22.280 --> 1:27:24.439 some things with it. Um, you made like I guess, 1:27:24.520 --> 1:27:26.400 I guess like an expansion would be the way I 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:28.960 would describe it for how it like it takes the 1:27:29.000 --> 1:27:31.759 same concept and pushes it further. And I think watching 1:27:31.760 --> 1:27:35.200 these things now, it is very different after being like 1:27:35.360 --> 1:27:38.840 two years on Zoom right, I'm I'm sure I'm sure 1:27:39.040 --> 1:27:41.040 you've heard this from other people as well as like 1:27:41.080 --> 1:27:43.799 you know, because because because of how Telling Lies operates, 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:47.439 it's like a lot of it is well you open 1:27:47.479 --> 1:27:49.439 the game because you're basically cracking open and then I 1:27:49.479 --> 1:27:52.320 say hard drive. So all of it is video from 1:27:52.400 --> 1:27:56.040 like webcams and stuff. Um, so you know, watching people 1:27:56.040 --> 1:27:59.559 talking to their computer camera like this after spending years 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:04.040 on Zoom definitely hits harder. I guess it was one 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:07.400 of those things where so when we were first working 1:28:07.400 --> 1:28:11.160 on this and conceiving of it, which was I don't know, 1:28:12.840 --> 1:28:16.960 maybe and something like that, Um, there was a leap, right, 1:28:17.040 --> 1:28:19.320 and as a storyteller you allow yourself sometimes to take 1:28:19.400 --> 1:28:21.400 that one leap that the audience will take with you. 1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:24.200 And the leap there was like these people are using 1:28:24.560 --> 1:28:28.880 video chat a lot. But I mean and as I 1:28:28.960 --> 1:28:31.120 was starting to put it together, I would start noticing 1:28:31.160 --> 1:28:34.400 people around that time doing video chat in the street 1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:36.680 on their phones, which was something I was not used 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:38.479 to sing And I was like, oh, ship, maybe this 1:28:38.560 --> 1:28:41.120 is not too big of a leap. But yeah, I 1:28:41.160 --> 1:28:43.360 think I think it was The Virgin or somebody ran 1:28:43.400 --> 1:28:46.840 an article that was like telling Lies is still a 1:28:46.880 --> 1:28:50.559 great game mid pandemic, it's just real hard to play 1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:55.240 now that like this Zoom thing is our lives. That 1:28:55.320 --> 1:28:58.040 was like, yeah, that was that was a big thing. 1:28:58.080 --> 1:28:59.880 I was interested in at the time, was like, what 1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:05.000 is this doing to us? What is communicating over the internet, 1:29:05.080 --> 1:29:08.240 how does that change how conversations and and things happen, 1:29:08.280 --> 1:29:09.960 And was kind of looking into some of the research there. 1:29:10.000 --> 1:29:14.760 So that, Yeah, that was wild. Was was was kind 1:29:14.760 --> 1:29:16.640 of living in that world for several years putting the 1:29:16.640 --> 1:29:21.000 game out and then spending two years on zoom Calls. Yeah. 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:23.000 I mean in a few ways, I think the game 1:29:23.040 --> 1:29:26.280 has aged very well because of that, and because the 1:29:26.320 --> 1:29:29.840 way people. People are more used to interacting with the 1:29:29.840 --> 1:29:33.080 computer in that format now, so when they're you know, 1:29:33.240 --> 1:29:35.920 trying to search for these like hundreds of video files, 1:29:35.960 --> 1:29:38.840 I think they can understand it better. Um. So in 1:29:38.840 --> 1:29:40.720 some ways I think it's not It's not necessarily a 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:45.400 bad thing. Um But yeah, let's see. So I think, well, 1:29:45.439 --> 1:29:48.720 I want to talk a bit about kind of the 1:29:48.840 --> 1:29:52.920 influences for kind of the surveillance aspect, because like her 1:29:53.000 --> 1:29:56.559 story is filmed in like a police um interrogation room 1:29:56.600 --> 1:30:00.320 for based basically basically the whole thing, whereas this pulls 1:30:00.400 --> 1:30:04.120 video footage of people like in private moments essentially. Of course, 1:30:04.160 --> 1:30:06.360 this was like after like the Snowden stuff and after 1:30:06.400 --> 1:30:08.880 all of the other kind of after the you know, 1:30:08.920 --> 1:30:13.080 surveillance became a bigger talking point. Um, but what what 1:30:13.160 --> 1:30:16.360 got you to decide you wanted to kind of revolve 1:30:16.400 --> 1:30:20.080 the game around this concept of internet surveillance. And then 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:23.080 you know, different three letter agencies kind of fighting each 1:30:23.120 --> 1:30:26.160 other a little bit. So I think it was two things. 1:30:26.240 --> 1:30:30.600 One was in making her story and making lots of 1:30:30.640 --> 1:30:33.840 decisions somewhat intuitively kind of when it was finished and 1:30:34.240 --> 1:30:36.080 it was a big success and I looked back on it, 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:38.720 and then kind of when a little bit of time 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:41.040 and passed, I then had this very different relationship where 1:30:41.040 --> 1:30:43.120 I had forgotten that I was the person who had 1:30:43.120 --> 1:30:45.759 made it and so could have opinions about it. And 1:30:45.800 --> 1:30:49.480 I was really interested in how that that game established 1:30:49.479 --> 1:30:52.960 a level of intimacy with the main character that Viva players, 1:30:52.960 --> 1:30:55.960 that you're seeing being interrogated, despite the fact that it 1:30:56.040 --> 1:30:58.439 is happening through a computer desktop, despite the fact that 1:30:58.479 --> 1:31:01.400 there's none of what tradition really you know that the 1:31:01.439 --> 1:31:04.040 agency you were traditionally having a video game, which you know, 1:31:04.160 --> 1:31:07.280 conventional logic would be that's how you would establish the 1:31:07.400 --> 1:31:09.240 idea that this person is alive and that you're in 1:31:09.280 --> 1:31:13.479 contact with them. But the act of like digging into 1:31:13.640 --> 1:31:16.000 all this video footage of Eva and seeing her on 1:31:16.080 --> 1:31:20.360 screen talking essentially at you created this this interesting amount 1:31:20.360 --> 1:31:22.479 of intimacy that a lot of people responded to. So 1:31:22.520 --> 1:31:24.000 I was like, well, that's one of the things that 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:27.439 is interesting to me to take further, because it's it's 1:31:27.760 --> 1:31:31.200 very rare that a video game creates this sensation of 1:31:31.560 --> 1:31:34.960 kind of intimacy or of getting close to or understanding people. 1:31:35.520 --> 1:31:39.479 And then it was Snowden m I think it was 1:31:39.560 --> 1:31:45.280 one of the the early reports UM from from all 1:31:45.320 --> 1:31:48.360 the various things that came out via Snowden. There was 1:31:48.400 --> 1:31:53.519 a particular UM operation in the UK, which I think 1:31:53.600 --> 1:31:56.639 was called Optic Nerve or something, and the idea there 1:31:56.720 --> 1:31:59.560 was that they were spying on everyone's Internet traffic. And 1:31:59.560 --> 1:32:01.280 I think it's a little bit easier to do that 1:32:01.560 --> 1:32:05.760 in the UK than it is elsewhere. And this one 1:32:05.760 --> 1:32:08.760 particular operation, I remember there was a PowerPoint slide that 1:32:08.880 --> 1:32:13.360 was leaked that was like their internal presentation which proved that, 1:32:13.439 --> 1:32:16.920 like in any leaked government PowerPoint will be the worst 1:32:16.960 --> 1:32:19.760 power point you've ever seen, like the clip art and 1:32:19.880 --> 1:32:23.240 just terrible nous, right um. But in this scheme, what 1:32:23.320 --> 1:32:26.639 they did, and this blew my mind. Was for a period, 1:32:26.680 --> 1:32:29.960 if I think it was two years, every single video 1:32:30.080 --> 1:32:33.360 chat that went through Yahoo in the UK was captured 1:32:34.240 --> 1:32:37.760 and recorded, and they had this issue, which I think 1:32:37.840 --> 1:32:39.600 is if you want to talk about surveillance kind of 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:46.320 post nine eleven, the big problem with surveillance and the 1:32:46.360 --> 1:32:48.200 extent to which is now used, is like what you 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:51.240 do with all this data? Like it's it's it's just 1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:57.400 too much. So they they were capturing all this Yahoo 1:32:57.479 --> 1:33:01.960 video chat and attempting to add the metadata and sort it, 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:04.240 which is kind of interesting because that's kind of, to 1:33:04.320 --> 1:33:07.479 some extent kind of how something like her story worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:10.400 And the biggest issue they had, and they put up 1:33:10.439 --> 1:33:14.080 this power point and it blew my mind, was thirty 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:18.080 of all the video chat through Yahoo at this point 1:33:18.280 --> 1:33:22.599 was sexual in nature, and they were concerned about the 1:33:22.640 --> 1:33:25.640 feelings of their operatives who were doing the tagging of 1:33:25.680 --> 1:33:28.639 all this data. So they'd put their best computer minds 1:33:28.720 --> 1:33:30.559 on it, and they'd come up with an algorithm which 1:33:30.560 --> 1:33:33.880 would detect an excessive amount of skin tone and would 1:33:33.880 --> 1:33:36.439 then kind of flag and silo those clips. And I 1:33:36.479 --> 1:33:38.960 just remember reading this and being like, what about the 1:33:38.960 --> 1:33:42.439 feelings of the people whose skin tone you're capturing, right, 1:33:42.560 --> 1:33:45.479 Like you weren't you weren't stopping to think like why 1:33:45.479 --> 1:33:47.280 are we doing this? Shouldn't we be doing this? You're 1:33:47.400 --> 1:33:49.439 you're you're solving for the problem of like how do 1:33:49.520 --> 1:33:52.160 we stop our agents seeing all this newnity? And I 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:53.799 think there was there was a bunch of other anecdotes 1:33:53.880 --> 1:33:59.080 right in the snowed and stuff of people alongside him, 1:33:59.120 --> 1:34:01.439 like you know, looking through people's webcom data and stuff 1:34:01.520 --> 1:34:03.840 and in a in a voyeuristic way, and just this 1:34:03.960 --> 1:34:08.960 constant invasion of people's rights. So I think that it 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:11.880 was one of those things where I was like, oh, 1:34:12.160 --> 1:34:15.880 this is this is like new, like you know, we 1:34:16.000 --> 1:34:19.960 now have you know you you you worry about certain 1:34:21.040 --> 1:34:23.679 levels of like your privacy being invaded, and you would 1:34:23.680 --> 1:34:26.200 certainly worry if someone was letting themselves into your house 1:34:26.240 --> 1:34:29.280 at night. But we suddenly found ourselves in this position 1:34:29.280 --> 1:34:31.680 where we have these phones that we put by our 1:34:31.720 --> 1:34:34.400 bedside at night, that have cameras and microphones that are 1:34:34.400 --> 1:34:39.519 pretty much just running right and capturing, and just the 1:34:39.600 --> 1:34:45.720 extent to which now technology has transformed surveillance, and that 1:34:45.720 --> 1:34:49.720 that was really interesting to me because I um and 1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:52.360 a big thing I wanted to do. You know, I've 1:34:52.400 --> 1:34:56.320 made her story. And like, growing up, I loved cop shows, 1:34:56.479 --> 1:35:01.280 and I particularly loved the good ones, like like Homicide, 1:35:01.320 --> 1:35:02.960 Life on the Street in the US. There was a 1:35:02.960 --> 1:35:05.960 show in the UK called Cracker Um and these were like, 1:35:06.000 --> 1:35:11.320 you know, somewhat nuanced in how they with policing, but 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:13.360 you know, you're you're still you know, in this position 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:17.000 now where we're starting to ask deeper questions about whether 1:35:17.040 --> 1:35:20.439 we should watch this many cops shows. Yeah, when they're 1:35:20.479 --> 1:35:24.280 like the main thing on all television all the time. Yeah, exactly. 1:35:24.680 --> 1:35:27.960 And that would be like when I made her story, 1:35:28.040 --> 1:35:31.400 Partly I pitched the bigger publishers like we should do 1:35:32.040 --> 1:35:33.760 the equivalent of a cop show like that, we should 1:35:33.760 --> 1:35:37.080 do crime fictional cop show, video game. And they would 1:35:37.080 --> 1:35:39.240 always be like nah, And I would say, well, look, 1:35:39.280 --> 1:35:41.920 this is like the evergreen. If you're a book publisher, 1:35:41.960 --> 1:35:43.479 you have a crime show, you have a crime book. 1:35:43.520 --> 1:35:45.479 You know, if you doing movies, you're going to have 1:35:45.640 --> 1:35:50.200 some movies with this genres. It works. And they would 1:35:50.200 --> 1:35:52.639 always kind of push against that. So when I made 1:35:52.640 --> 1:35:56.080 her story, that was in fact, like the arc of 1:35:56.080 --> 1:35:59.160 of playing her story to some extent mirrors my ark 1:35:59.240 --> 1:36:01.519 in that Like at the top of it, I was like, 1:36:01.720 --> 1:36:05.160 I want to make an interesting detective game, and I 1:36:05.200 --> 1:36:09.760 want to deconstruct how detective stories work. And I then 1:36:09.880 --> 1:36:14.240 started to do a bunch of research whereas digging into, well, 1:36:14.280 --> 1:36:17.760 how do actual criminal investigations work, how does one interrogate 1:36:17.760 --> 1:36:20.719 the suspect doing all that stuff? And then I started 1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:23.479 to pull up what at the time, like there was 1:36:23.520 --> 1:36:25.840 a bit it was slightly ahead of like the true 1:36:25.920 --> 1:36:29.000 crime explosion, but there was starting to be stuff on 1:36:29.000 --> 1:36:32.880 YouTube and in various places where footage from real investigations 1:36:32.920 --> 1:36:35.000 was online, and it was starting to get a bit 1:36:35.479 --> 1:36:38.640 weird and interesting, and that people were kind of vicariously 1:36:39.320 --> 1:36:42.960 watching these things. And yeah, that raised also of questions 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:44.920 they were trying to piece together their own kind of 1:36:44.920 --> 1:36:50.759 conclusions based on these leaked or sometimes officially released interview segments. Yeah, 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:54.320 and and there was one in particularly got really into 1:36:54.320 --> 1:36:57.640 the Jodi Arias case. It's just like a and and 1:36:57.680 --> 1:37:01.320 the way the media spun that story and just really 1:37:01.400 --> 1:37:04.719 dug into oh, there's like sex and murder and Mormons, 1:37:04.800 --> 1:37:07.280 and there's this beautiful blonde woman who now when she 1:37:07.320 --> 1:37:12.519 goes to court, has gone brunette, and they were endlessly 1:37:12.560 --> 1:37:15.679 talking about on cable news like her parents and setting 1:37:15.680 --> 1:37:19.160 her up as this kind of them fatal kind of 1:37:20.360 --> 1:37:23.639 ice maiden. On the slip side of this, I think 1:37:23.680 --> 1:37:27.240 there's like the thing with them the Making the Murderer documentary, 1:37:27.240 --> 1:37:29.240 which I think I have some issues with how they 1:37:29.320 --> 1:37:33.040 handle the main guy, but particularly how they showed the 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:37.439 totally immoral interrogation tactics used on used on Brandon the 1:37:37.520 --> 1:37:40.599 kid Um, and that really cracked that whole thing open, 1:37:40.640 --> 1:37:43.960 being like, yeah, the way the police are interrogating miners 1:37:44.000 --> 1:37:47.760 without it was the lawyers is shocking, and that was 1:37:47.840 --> 1:37:49.840 that was that was part of this transition for me. 1:37:49.960 --> 1:37:52.400 Was was was going into her story with like the 1:37:52.439 --> 1:37:54.800 hero of this is the detective. It's Andre Brower and 1:37:54.840 --> 1:37:57.080 homicide life in the street. It's the genius detective that's 1:37:57.080 --> 1:37:59.559 going to come in there and crack this case. And 1:38:00.280 --> 1:38:03.400 the more I dug into in cases like Jody's where 1:38:03.880 --> 1:38:10.479 um there word various um aspects to that case. She 1:38:11.080 --> 1:38:14.280 definitely did murder her lover, but there are lots of 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:18.160 questions around whether the relationship itself was particularly healthy. Um 1:38:18.760 --> 1:38:20.479 and by the end of it, like all of my 1:38:20.520 --> 1:38:24.280 sympathy was with Jody, not with the interrogator who you 1:38:24.320 --> 1:38:28.080 watch it and you realize that, like, the reason this 1:38:28.120 --> 1:38:30.800 person is in this situation is because their life has 1:38:30.840 --> 1:38:35.479 gone very badly, and the reason for that is everything 1:38:35.520 --> 1:38:37.840 that's happened in their life prior to this, and they've 1:38:37.880 --> 1:38:40.599 never spoken to anyone about any of this stuff. And 1:38:40.680 --> 1:38:43.920 suddenly they're in this room with the homicide detective who's like, hey, 1:38:44.000 --> 1:38:46.080 you can talk to me. I'm the first person that's 1:38:46.120 --> 1:38:48.280 going to sit and listen to you, and all these 1:38:48.360 --> 1:38:51.240 tricks that they use to just get people talking, and 1:38:51.280 --> 1:38:54.000 it becomes very intimate and becomes kind of like therapy session. 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:56.800 But by the end of it so so for me, 1:38:57.720 --> 1:38:59.880 like the hook of her story is, oh, you get 1:38:59.880 --> 1:39:02.240 to solver murder, but really, by the end of it, 1:39:02.240 --> 1:39:07.160 it's like a character portna. You should entirely be with 1:39:07.200 --> 1:39:12.040 her that is less about seeing justice done right. So 1:39:12.120 --> 1:39:14.680 I even but even coming away from that, I was like, 1:39:14.760 --> 1:39:18.759 I still feel slightly uncomfortable with with kind of having 1:39:18.800 --> 1:39:22.280 made this thing that is reveling in how much fun 1:39:22.320 --> 1:39:25.200 it is to be involved in the police work or whatever. 1:39:26.400 --> 1:39:30.000 And so I was definitely thinking about the snows and stuff, 1:39:30.080 --> 1:39:34.160 thinking about that aspect and the extent to which technology 1:39:34.400 --> 1:39:41.280 has just so empowered policing in general to the point 1:39:41.320 --> 1:39:44.800 where it's there's this great um Like one of the 1:39:44.800 --> 1:39:46.840 core themes that I wanted to dig into and telling 1:39:46.880 --> 1:39:49.599 lies was that when you see people try and defend 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:53.040 this stuff and defend policing in general, is they try 1:39:53.040 --> 1:39:56.479 and set it up so that you basically have They 1:39:56.520 --> 1:40:00.640 talk in terms of families and very close relationships, so 1:40:00.640 --> 1:40:03.080 they're kind of like, well, the government is your parent, 1:40:03.800 --> 1:40:06.280 and they're trying to look after you. And you understand 1:40:06.280 --> 1:40:10.960 as a parent, you're going to sometimes invade the privacy 1:40:11.000 --> 1:40:13.120 of your children or sometimes you're going to inhibit their 1:40:13.120 --> 1:40:16.360 freedoms because you're trying to protect them. And we all 1:40:16.439 --> 1:40:18.800 understand that, and that's part of being human, and that's 1:40:18.840 --> 1:40:20.880 all that's happening here with government, right We're trying to 1:40:20.920 --> 1:40:23.600 protect you from the big bad, the evil sort of 1:40:23.600 --> 1:40:27.200 like there's some tweet from the YPD the other day 1:40:27.200 --> 1:40:30.040 that was like you'll be come, You'll come running when 1:40:30.080 --> 1:40:35.080 evil is on your doorstep. Someone was saying something and 1:40:34.920 --> 1:40:39.160 and and for me, once you you take that understanding 1:40:39.200 --> 1:40:42.360 of how people relate directly to which they how families work. 1:40:43.240 --> 1:40:46.200 The second you scale it to the size of government, 1:40:46.240 --> 1:40:49.320 it breaks like that you cannot extend that metaphor. And 1:40:49.360 --> 1:40:52.760 then when you add in tech, um, you know, the 1:40:52.800 --> 1:40:57.360 extent to which uh, you know, privacy has been degraded 1:40:57.439 --> 1:41:00.600 of freedoms. Um, you know, when you start just blanket 1:41:00.720 --> 1:41:05.840 looking for crime, right, you start creating all the systemic 1:41:05.880 --> 1:41:10.559 issues that we have just suddenly become amplified. Um. So 1:41:10.600 --> 1:41:15.360 that that to me was kind of interesting. Um, well, 1:41:15.520 --> 1:41:19.439 you know, here is like a means to explore that. 1:41:19.520 --> 1:41:22.799 And I like one of the things that was interesting 1:41:22.800 --> 1:41:26.880 to me about her story that in retrospect was the 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:29.519 extent to which it was about watching video, which seems 1:41:29.560 --> 1:41:31.599 like a dumb thing to say, but like the choice 1:41:31.640 --> 1:41:35.519 to use real video kind of inspired by watching all 1:41:35.520 --> 1:41:39.160 these interrogation piece of footage from Jodi and people. Um, 1:41:39.760 --> 1:41:42.040 you know, it was was kind of made Oh yeah, 1:41:42.040 --> 1:41:43.400 that makes sense, and I just kind of got on 1:41:43.439 --> 1:41:45.240 with it. But then looking back, I was like, oh, well, 1:41:45.280 --> 1:41:48.439 it's interesting because people talk about this game as being 1:41:48.439 --> 1:41:51.240 an interactive movie, but it's nothing like a movie. No no, 1:41:51.840 --> 1:41:54.240 and it's not how movies work. It just happens that 1:41:54.280 --> 1:41:57.840 it uses a video camera. Only similarity is that it 1:41:57.880 --> 1:42:01.080 has live action footage that yeah, So I was like, 1:42:01.360 --> 1:42:03.960 I really want to go even further into that texture. 1:42:04.000 --> 1:42:05.840 And so I was just thinking about and when I 1:42:05.840 --> 1:42:08.120 was starting to do my research, like the idea of 1:42:08.160 --> 1:42:13.800 surveillance and and the commonalities between like classic old school surveillance, 1:42:14.040 --> 1:42:17.920 I you know, someone sat in a car some binoculars 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:22.720 watching someone and and modern surveillance. The commonalities that it's 1:42:22.800 --> 1:42:26.400 quite boring, right, there's just a lot of sitting and 1:42:26.439 --> 1:42:31.320 watching nothing. Yeah, right. And but out of that, and 1:42:31.360 --> 1:42:33.920 when you kind of read the first hand accounts of 1:42:33.960 --> 1:42:36.559 the people doing the surveillance or some of the depictions 1:42:36.600 --> 1:42:40.840 of this media, like there's a level of intimacy that 1:42:40.960 --> 1:42:45.240 you get with the person you're surveilling right where you know, 1:42:45.280 --> 1:42:47.519 if you're just sat watching them and you schef someone's life, 1:42:47.560 --> 1:42:49.640 if you're listening to a bug in someone's kitchen and 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:52.160 just hearing all the just everyday ship in their lives, 1:42:52.880 --> 1:42:55.680 or if you are you know, watching them through some 1:42:55.760 --> 1:42:59.360 kind of technology, Um, you're just spending all this time 1:42:59.400 --> 1:43:02.160 with them, and that's like a that's like a very 1:43:02.400 --> 1:43:05.120 non cinematic thing. It's just like this that menu shy 1:43:05.280 --> 1:43:08.679 and the time stretching out of just being present with somebody. 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:13.080 And that was kind of interesting to me of just 1:43:13.160 --> 1:43:16.880 kind of putting you in that headspace and kind of 1:43:16.920 --> 1:43:20.759 thinking about what that means. I think that totally gets 1:43:20.760 --> 1:43:24.080 through because of the way you break up the conversations 1:43:24.080 --> 1:43:26.559 and telling lies. You have to sit and watch these 1:43:26.680 --> 1:43:30.400 characters as they're just doing nothing for sometimes like like 1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:33.640 over five minutes. They're just like sitting there, um, and 1:43:33.720 --> 1:43:36.400 you do get like very intimate with these characters, but 1:43:36.439 --> 1:43:39.720 it almost like in a very like creepy way where 1:43:39.760 --> 1:43:43.559 you like you feel like I shouldn't be here, which 1:43:43.600 --> 1:43:45.800 is kind of the general feeling of telling us really 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:48.479 interesting because I like some people would have a very 1:43:48.640 --> 1:43:52.320 and and this was you know, completely again like trying 1:43:52.320 --> 1:43:56.759 to process how I felt watching the like the videos 1:43:56.800 --> 1:43:59.240 of all the various police interrogations and stuff, was like, 1:43:59.720 --> 1:44:02.720 this is fascinating because there's human beings were fascinated by 1:44:02.720 --> 1:44:05.839 other human beings, and here is this extremely interesting dramatic 1:44:05.840 --> 1:44:08.599 stuff where people are just really spilling their lives out. 1:44:08.800 --> 1:44:11.280 It's why true crime blew up, right, But then you 1:44:11.320 --> 1:44:14.320 have all these moral questions around it. And obviously with 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:17.720 telling lies, it's inspired by lots of real things, but 1:44:17.760 --> 1:44:21.280 it's fake and you're watching actors act this stuff. But 1:44:21.360 --> 1:44:23.960 still some people would have this real visceral reaction of 1:44:24.000 --> 1:44:26.760 like I shouldn't be watching some of this stuff, and 1:44:27.120 --> 1:44:29.920 I'd be like, I mean, you you can. It's like 1:44:30.800 --> 1:44:33.400 that was that was where it became really not cinematic 1:44:33.439 --> 1:44:36.360 to me, was like, you know, if you're watching a 1:44:36.880 --> 1:44:40.160 you know, a noir film or you know, a thriller 1:44:40.880 --> 1:44:44.640 and you have you know, or even like the The 1:44:44.680 --> 1:44:46.439 thing for the domestic stuff for me was you know, 1:44:46.479 --> 1:44:48.920 you could watch and a sitcom, watching any a normal 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:53.160 sitcom and the husband and wife are sat in bed chatting. 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:55.519 At no point do you feel like I shouldn't be 1:44:55.560 --> 1:44:58.639 here because you're in the kind of classic Hollywood invisible 1:44:58.680 --> 1:45:01.839 camera set up. You're this, you know, you have permission 1:45:01.880 --> 1:45:04.519 to be there as the invisible camera spectator, and it 1:45:04.560 --> 1:45:07.160 doesn't feel as weird as it would if you're hiding 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:11.320 in the closet of this comple's bedroom. Um So with 1:45:11.360 --> 1:45:14.760 the setup I'm telling lies, you immediately feel like, oh, 1:45:14.960 --> 1:45:18.280 like this I am in this position that I shouldn't be, 1:45:18.320 --> 1:45:23.080 And so suddenly all those more domestic moments become charged 1:45:23.080 --> 1:45:25.599 with like a very different vibe. Yeah, because you're watching 1:45:25.600 --> 1:45:28.160 them and you're you're not invited, like right, you're you know, 1:45:28.240 --> 1:45:30.640 you're sitting looking at this ns A hard drive and 1:45:30.640 --> 1:45:32.160 you're like, yeah, I'm not supposed to be watching this 1:45:32.240 --> 1:45:34.880 like this, this, this isn't They never invited me into 1:45:34.880 --> 1:45:38.880 this conversation. Telling Lies very much feels like a much 1:45:38.880 --> 1:45:42.160 more mature game than her story. Not in terms of 1:45:42.200 --> 1:45:44.519 like has like more mature content, but like in terms 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:47.800 of like this concept growing up and like evolving and 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:50.920 gaining more depth. Um, particularly because you know, not only 1:45:50.960 --> 1:45:53.400 just because it has way more characters, but because you know, 1:45:53.479 --> 1:45:56.120 you get to all of your kind of games deal 1:45:56.160 --> 1:45:58.800 with some degree of like characters lying to you and 1:45:58.800 --> 1:46:00.920 like just doing like straight line to your face. That's 1:46:00.960 --> 1:46:02.840 kind of a that's my read on a lot of 1:46:02.840 --> 1:46:05.240 a lot of your games. Um, I mean, you're the 1:46:05.240 --> 1:46:09.120 game is called Telling Lies, so so you definitely see 1:46:09.160 --> 1:46:10.960 like elements of of you know, all of these trying 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:12.920 to figure out what is true and what is not. 1:46:13.320 --> 1:46:16.599 I think it is interesting looking at like how easier 1:46:16.640 --> 1:46:21.320 it is to lie via these technological platforms. UM, I 1:46:21.360 --> 1:46:24.200 don't know to just like you feel like telling the 1:46:24.240 --> 1:46:26.200 truth is just so much more work and you may 1:46:26.240 --> 1:46:28.840 as well just get through this conversation by doing a 1:46:28.840 --> 1:46:31.839 few white lives, which is that inspiral out of control. Um. 1:46:31.880 --> 1:46:34.320 When you combine this with you know, law enforcement infiltration 1:46:34.320 --> 1:46:35.599 and all this kind of stuff, he gets it gets 1:46:35.720 --> 1:46:38.680 very complicated very quickly. Um. One thing that I think 1:46:38.720 --> 1:46:41.120 you guys handled very well in Telling Lies was kind 1:46:41.120 --> 1:46:43.920 of the activism side of things. So like when when 1:46:43.920 --> 1:46:46.639 I play this game, like almost immediately after coming back 1:46:47.040 --> 1:46:50.000 from the stop lining three protests, um, and like and 1:46:50.000 --> 1:46:52.400 and like in Earth First Gathering, you know, everyone there 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:56.320 is always very people try to be aware of surveillance 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:57.760 to be like, okay, you know, you don't talk about 1:46:57.800 --> 1:47:01.439 certain things if there's phones nearby and stuff. So so 1:47:01.600 --> 1:47:04.439 that whole side of things was very interesting to like 1:47:04.640 --> 1:47:06.920 play this game right afterwards because you have to see 1:47:06.960 --> 1:47:08.920 like the other side of things, being like, okay, if 1:47:08.960 --> 1:47:11.800 the the FBI is infiltrating this group, here's you know, 1:47:12.160 --> 1:47:13.559 one of the ways that they do it. And like 1:47:13.680 --> 1:47:17.719 that from my perspective being you know, in activism spaces 1:47:17.720 --> 1:47:19.920 for a while not just like environmental ones, but you 1:47:19.960 --> 1:47:23.559 know other ones like here in Portland. Um, you had 1:47:23.920 --> 1:47:28.840 you handled this topic very accurately. Um, where what kind 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:31.120 of stuff did you pull from to kind of create 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:35.760 these like these you know environments and interactions between people. 1:47:35.760 --> 1:47:37.559 Because I'm not sure if you have any experience yourself 1:47:37.600 --> 1:47:39.719 and stuff like this or if you've got people onto 1:47:40.000 --> 1:47:42.800 like like you talk to people who are more experienced activists. 1:47:43.120 --> 1:47:45.240 What was kind of your inspiration for like, you know, 1:47:45.320 --> 1:47:47.959 the opposite side of things, not on the law enforcement. 1:47:48.280 --> 1:47:50.120 So that was that was like one of the big 1:47:50.479 --> 1:47:55.640 initial jumping off points. So uh like in terms of 1:47:55.680 --> 1:47:59.400 the kind of real life inspirations, Like the seed of 1:47:59.439 --> 1:48:03.360 this whole thing was to remember when this was it 1:48:03.400 --> 1:48:07.160 was I'm gonna say two thou could be completely wrong here, 1:48:07.479 --> 1:48:10.479 but it was The Guardian in the UK I think 1:48:10.600 --> 1:48:13.680 broke the story. But it was and we've recently had 1:48:13.720 --> 1:48:18.439 some good progress in this this area, but broke the 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:24.160 story of this UK spy Cops operation, which was a 1:48:24.280 --> 1:48:28.960 specific unit within the London Police whose job was to 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:35.600 infiltrate groups, to surveil them from the inside. And um, 1:48:35.640 --> 1:48:39.000 it was horrific and they were like a couple of 1:48:39.040 --> 1:48:42.000 things about it that were horrific. One of them was 1:48:42.080 --> 1:48:46.480 that like, essentially their modus operandi was to find vulnerable 1:48:46.520 --> 1:48:51.000 young women on the periphery of groups, target them romantically, 1:48:51.360 --> 1:48:54.439 and then they would be the collateral to get, you know, 1:48:54.479 --> 1:48:58.519 to have people then more solidly enter into these groups. 1:48:58.560 --> 1:49:02.200 And then they had like a whole you know, stepped 1:49:02.280 --> 1:49:04.519 plan of like once you're in, how you kind of 1:49:04.720 --> 1:49:09.880 would would destabilized steer these groups from within UM. And 1:49:10.920 --> 1:49:16.760 the the thing that really made this even worse UM 1:49:17.080 --> 1:49:20.439 was the fact that most of the groups, I think 1:49:20.439 --> 1:49:23.519 maybe all of the groups targeted with this particular unit 1:49:23.720 --> 1:49:31.559 were green activists. There's this incredible, incredible, like you couldn't 1:49:31.560 --> 1:49:35.799 make this stuff up. But there's a famous libel case 1:49:36.080 --> 1:49:38.960 where McDonald's was suing these these two activists in the 1:49:39.040 --> 1:49:44.320 UK right because they were putting up flyers exposing some 1:49:44.400 --> 1:49:48.920 of the practices of McDonald's and the group that they 1:49:48.960 --> 1:49:51.360 were members of, which I think at this point was 1:49:51.360 --> 1:49:53.920 called Green Piece, but it was different to the kind 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:58.479 of more famous Green Piece in London. Prior to them 1:49:58.520 --> 1:50:02.680 doing this big kind of mcd arnold's thing, UM was 1:50:02.800 --> 1:50:05.599 losing members and it got to a point where there 1:50:05.600 --> 1:50:08.639 were so few people in this group that it would 1:50:08.680 --> 1:50:11.240 have shut down had it not been for the fact 1:50:11.800 --> 1:50:17.640 that there were a large number of undercover cops in 1:50:17.680 --> 1:50:19.760 this group. So you know, if you imagine at some 1:50:19.800 --> 1:50:23.600 point there were actually more undercover cops and private security 1:50:23.640 --> 1:50:27.120 people undercover in this group that actual activists, which has 1:50:27.520 --> 1:50:30.760 enabled the group to continue. And in fact, the original 1:50:31.479 --> 1:50:35.280 flyer that they put out was written I forget the 1:50:35.280 --> 1:50:38.760 guy's name now by one of these undercover cops. He 1:50:38.840 --> 1:50:43.479 wrote the copy for this flyer that went out and 1:50:43.520 --> 1:50:45.760 then was you know, saw this these people dragged up 1:50:45.760 --> 1:50:48.320 in court and was this huge you know, McDonald's won 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:50.400 the case, but in terms of pr it was hugely 1:50:50.439 --> 1:50:53.360 damaging to them. But yeah, that that for me was 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:56.639 the thing that seemed even more a point because because 1:50:56.640 --> 1:51:00.520 here you had this story of the state so actioning 1:51:01.280 --> 1:51:05.560 the you know, one of the most terrible abuses. Like essentially, 1:51:05.880 --> 1:51:10.400 you know, what was happening was pretty easy to to 1:51:11.120 --> 1:51:14.240 kind of call it rape, right. There was women in 1:51:14.320 --> 1:51:18.160 sexual relationships with people and thinking it was consensual, but 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:21.040 not realizing that they this was you know, what they 1:51:21.080 --> 1:51:22.920 were getting into was not what they thought it was, 1:51:23.720 --> 1:51:28.880 and so this was just so appalling and like from 1:51:28.880 --> 1:51:36.800 a just to kind of base emotional level, just it 1:51:36.880 --> 1:51:41.560 was so hard for me to imagine the pain of 1:51:41.760 --> 1:51:44.599 Um and these women when relationships with these undercover officers 1:51:44.680 --> 1:51:48.120 for years and then and and and part of the 1:51:48.160 --> 1:51:50.360 modus operanda was when you were done, you had to 1:51:50.400 --> 1:51:52.920 exit and disappear. And they had this whole plan where 1:51:53.200 --> 1:51:56.680 the cops would claim that they were being followed and 1:51:56.680 --> 1:51:58.800 that they were worried, and then they would disappear. And 1:51:58.840 --> 1:52:02.160 then they would cool from some European country and say 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:03.840 that they've kind of fled the country because they were 1:52:03.880 --> 1:52:06.680 worried that the cops were onto them, and then they 1:52:06.720 --> 1:52:08.920 would slowly kind of disappear and this you know, some 1:52:09.000 --> 1:52:11.880 of these were kind of pre modern Internet, so it 1:52:11.920 --> 1:52:15.120 was easier for someone to kind of disappear. But this 1:52:15.160 --> 1:52:17.759 stuff totally happened in the Green Scare in the States, 1:52:17.920 --> 1:52:21.439 in you know, around this was around this was My 1:52:21.479 --> 1:52:24.639 big question was was this you know, some of these 1:52:24.680 --> 1:52:27.040 cases were kind of the original inspiration. And when I 1:52:27.080 --> 1:52:31.120 started thinking about trying to tell a story inspired by 1:52:31.120 --> 1:52:34.519 their originally it starts off and and and there's still 1:52:34.560 --> 1:52:37.120 in based in the UK and based on these things, 1:52:37.200 --> 1:52:41.920 and there was a particular, ah, a particular flavor to 1:52:42.080 --> 1:52:44.679 it where the cops doing this work it was part 1:52:44.720 --> 1:52:47.560 of the Matt Police, who were you know, that's the 1:52:47.680 --> 1:52:52.040 more kind of gang story, Like there's there's a real 1:52:52.080 --> 1:52:55.720 reputation that the Matt Police have. So these cops that 1:52:55.800 --> 1:52:58.320 were chosen for this work were the ones that were 1:52:58.320 --> 1:53:01.080 a bit more kind of Marcho and edge. Um, and 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:02.280 there were there was I mean, there was so much 1:53:02.280 --> 1:53:04.519 stuff to it was horrific, Like they would only pick 1:53:05.320 --> 1:53:11.479 cops that were married, um because they felt that that 1:53:12.320 --> 1:53:17.799 h gave them some level of ability to be sleeping 1:53:17.840 --> 1:53:21.240 with these activists and not lose themselves in it. Um. 1:53:21.280 --> 1:53:23.960 But obviously the wives didn't know what was sending um. 1:53:24.000 --> 1:53:26.040 And and there's just there's so many layers of this 1:53:26.120 --> 1:53:30.360 that I just thought was it was awful, and coming 1:53:30.400 --> 1:53:32.519 off the first story, I was like, well, I would 1:53:32.600 --> 1:53:36.760 love to tell an undercover cops story in which we 1:53:37.680 --> 1:53:41.600 acknowledged that the undercover cop is bad. They aren't, like, 1:53:42.080 --> 1:53:44.519 you know, because because it's such a classic trope, is 1:53:44.560 --> 1:53:47.439 the undercover cops story. Because you get to have your 1:53:47.439 --> 1:53:48.920 cake and eat it, you get to see someone on 1:53:48.960 --> 1:53:51.120 both sides the law you get, you get all the 1:53:51.200 --> 1:53:55.519 tension and thrills of it. But usually, you know, whatever, 1:53:55.680 --> 1:53:57.880 even if the if the movie or the story or 1:53:57.880 --> 1:54:01.600 whatever has a bitter sweet ending, the protagonists always the 1:54:01.680 --> 1:54:05.280 undercover cop. And ultimately, because they're the protagonist, they're the 1:54:05.320 --> 1:54:08.880 one that your heart goes to, right. And the secondary characters, 1:54:09.080 --> 1:54:11.439 whether that's like the wife in Donnie Brasco or Good 1:54:11.439 --> 1:54:13.960 Fellows or something, you know, they basically serve as a 1:54:14.000 --> 1:54:16.000 foil to the main character. So I was like, well, 1:54:17.040 --> 1:54:21.200 can we tell a story where, um, we we treat 1:54:21.640 --> 1:54:24.320 the wife and the activist who's being targeted and the 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:28.599 other people on the periphery of this guys think more 1:54:28.680 --> 1:54:32.560 about their perspective on this world, and let's acknowledge from 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:36.800 our perspective that this is wrong. Everything that's happening is 1:54:36.800 --> 1:54:39.000 wrong and it's not justified. And then let's just see 1:54:39.040 --> 1:54:42.120 what the impact is on people. UM. So, once we 1:54:42.120 --> 1:54:45.880 started developing it, and when I was speaking to Anna 1:54:45.920 --> 1:54:49.000 partner about doing it, um, I felt like, oh, we 1:54:49.000 --> 1:54:52.960 should move this to the States, um to make it 1:54:54.480 --> 1:54:58.360 feel certainly as well, because the larger audiences American to 1:54:58.360 --> 1:55:01.840 to kind of reiterate and make it feel kind of 1:55:01.880 --> 1:55:05.520 more identifiable and have it be less quaint and British. Um. 1:55:05.520 --> 1:55:07.760 So my number one question from day one was like, well, 1:55:07.760 --> 1:55:10.640 does this ship happen in the States, and as such, 1:55:10.680 --> 1:55:12.280 does it happen in the same way. And so we 1:55:12.360 --> 1:55:15.640 brought on a researcher who then started pulling stuff up 1:55:15.640 --> 1:55:19.920 and and the big thing for me was replacing the 1:55:20.000 --> 1:55:25.840 undercover group the met with the FBI, and and then 1:55:25.840 --> 1:55:28.640 I that became fascinating to me because then I started 1:55:28.640 --> 1:55:32.480 digging into the FBI and understanding their history and everything 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:37.280 that's wrong there. But yeah, immediately I start seeing all 1:55:37.320 --> 1:55:41.720 these great examples of of yeah, this explicit infiltration of 1:55:41.800 --> 1:55:47.320 green groups um, some pretty horrific cases of entrapment um, 1:55:47.360 --> 1:55:51.360 where you know, people infiltrate these groups and then encourage 1:55:51.400 --> 1:55:55.360 them to do more extreme and violent things on the record. 1:55:55.920 --> 1:55:58.960 It's the point where you're listening to like recorded FBI 1:56:00.520 --> 1:56:03.120 stuff and and you can hear the group being like 1:56:03.160 --> 1:56:05.280 I'm not sure about that, Like that doesn't sound like 1:56:05.320 --> 1:56:09.720 a great idea, dude, And the the FBI person is 1:56:09.760 --> 1:56:12.920 there going like, what, I don't know, I really do 1:56:12.960 --> 1:56:16.600 think we should blow this bridge up. Guys, and it's 1:56:16.640 --> 1:56:19.400 so obvious like when you listen to which is why 1:56:19.440 --> 1:56:21.760 a lot of these cases have ultimately been thrown out. 1:56:21.880 --> 1:56:25.720 But yeah, it was it was It was I guess 1:56:26.360 --> 1:56:29.160 for the project, reassuring to see that all this stuff 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:33.280 was happening over here. Yeah. I mean, and the FBI, 1:56:34.040 --> 1:56:36.280 like the specific FBI agent that we kind of follow 1:56:36.720 --> 1:56:40.960 definitely feels very American and feels very real. Um. I 1:56:41.520 --> 1:56:44.440 really like the actor that you got to play him. Um, 1:56:44.440 --> 1:56:46.280 he definitely feels like a lot of kind of the 1:56:46.360 --> 1:56:52.280 law enforcement dudes who kind of handle this side of things. Um. 1:56:52.720 --> 1:56:54.760 That was that was That was definitely that was like 1:56:54.800 --> 1:56:58.360 an FBI. He became like the fbiis of it became 1:56:58.440 --> 1:57:01.200 very important to it. And it was interesting the way 1:57:01.320 --> 1:57:04.280 that the FBI they had this brand, which is partly 1:57:05.160 --> 1:57:07.360 reinforced by the media, Like they had the great idea 1:57:07.400 --> 1:57:11.560 back in like forties or fifties to themselves fund and 1:57:11.600 --> 1:57:15.080 support cop shows. So this whole idea we have through 1:57:15.120 --> 1:57:18.680 the X Files, through pretty much every serial killer media whatever. 1:57:19.440 --> 1:57:21.840 The idea of the FBI is being like the smartest 1:57:21.880 --> 1:57:25.160 and the best, like that's put out by them. But 1:57:25.320 --> 1:57:29.360 it's really interesting to see they believe that like they 1:57:29.400 --> 1:57:34.520 are beyond approach and like they have higher standards for like, 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:36.120 you know, if you want to join the FBI, there 1:57:36.200 --> 1:57:39.440 is in theory this kind of moral moral check that 1:57:39.520 --> 1:57:44.040 you have to pass. But into abi age and flipping 1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:46.800 backwards and shooting somebody when his gun falls out of 1:57:46.840 --> 1:57:50.360 his pants at a clip. Well, then you read about 1:57:50.360 --> 1:57:53.000 it and you're like, actually the experience, the lived experience, 1:57:53.040 --> 1:57:56.080 and we were it was it was so bizarre because 1:57:56.120 --> 1:57:58.120 I was like, I really want to understand what it's 1:57:58.160 --> 1:58:01.880 like to be an FBI wife, and um let's find 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:04.600 let's reach out and the research I've done. Some of 1:58:04.640 --> 1:58:06.120 the stuff we pulled up, I was like, oh it 1:58:07.480 --> 1:58:10.960 it does sound pretty bad. Like there's a requirement if 1:58:10.960 --> 1:58:13.440 you're an FBI agent you have to move every three 1:58:13.520 --> 1:58:16.560 years or something. So if you're the wife to an 1:58:16.560 --> 1:58:19.000 FBI agent, you essentially move every three years, and so 1:58:19.040 --> 1:58:21.560 you never get a chance to build your own career 1:58:21.720 --> 1:58:24.480 or to make roots. And so you're generally and the 1:58:24.520 --> 1:58:28.360 wage is not great, which is why they're very vulnerable 1:58:28.400 --> 1:58:34.600 to corruption. Really, um, so you're generally living. There's usually 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:37.480 kind of areas where all the FBI families live, so 1:58:37.520 --> 1:58:41.600 it's this very insular world, and you you start to 1:58:41.640 --> 1:58:47.120 see where some of these wives have come out and 1:58:47.160 --> 1:58:51.720 spoken about it. They're like, it's really shitty because husbands 1:58:51.840 --> 1:58:53.760 who believe themselves to be like you know, March of 1:58:53.840 --> 1:58:57.080 superheroes get to disappear for three days at a time 1:58:57.160 --> 1:58:58.760 and we can never ask where they are or what 1:58:58.800 --> 1:59:01.120 they're doing. And there's this of internal code which you 1:59:01.200 --> 1:59:03.000 seen a lot of law enforcement right where they will 1:59:03.080 --> 1:59:06.800 cover for each other and protect each other. Um. And 1:59:07.120 --> 1:59:12.640 you suddenly start to see that, like, ah, you know this, 1:59:12.640 --> 1:59:17.560 this is not like And in fact, I remember reading 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:21.160 sort of the guy who inspired like Silenced the Lambs. 1:59:21.200 --> 1:59:23.160 The TV show mind Hunter was based on him in 1:59:23.200 --> 1:59:25.880 his book. Um, this guy who was one of the 1:59:25.920 --> 1:59:30.880 early kind of serial killer profiling people within the FBI. 1:59:31.400 --> 1:59:35.200 You read his book, it's a terrible book. When I 1:59:35.200 --> 1:59:37.680 heard that Fincher was adapting us like, wow, good luck, 1:59:38.160 --> 1:59:42.880 m But it's incredible the lack of self awareness he has. Um, 1:59:42.920 --> 1:59:46.280 this guy is so sexist and so bad. Every time 1:59:46.280 --> 1:59:49.880 he introduces a woman, it starts by from the legs up, 1:59:49.960 --> 1:59:53.840 like he's describing and Um. At the very end of 1:59:53.880 --> 1:59:56.240 the book, he reveals that his wife leaves him, and 1:59:56.280 --> 1:59:58.360 he kind of writes as if this is a huge surprise, 1:59:58.400 --> 2:00:01.440 and you're like, yeah, he's calling u. Chapter one and 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:03.480 he has the best buddy, So like the guy who's 2:00:03.520 --> 2:00:06.800 who's the kind of number two in mind Hunter on TV, 2:00:07.760 --> 2:00:10.280 there's like a real life version of him. And halfway 2:00:10.280 --> 2:00:14.680 through the book, his wife hires an assassin to kind 2:00:14.720 --> 2:00:17.080 of hitman to come in and kill him, and the 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:19.760 guy just narrowly avoids it. And the guy writing the 2:00:19.760 --> 2:00:22.840 book is like what an evil woman like, oh my 2:00:22.880 --> 2:00:24.840 poor friend, And you're like, well, hang on a minute, 2:00:24.840 --> 2:00:27.760 what did your what was your friend? Like? Yeah, what 2:00:27.800 --> 2:00:30.520 was going on? Yeah, there's there's there's probably something going 2:00:30.560 --> 2:00:35.440 on there. So yeah, it was Yeah, that that sense 2:00:35.640 --> 2:00:40.640 that which I think for me, expanded beautifully to the 2:00:40.640 --> 2:00:43.960 bigger picture of like that character kind of believing that 2:00:44.080 --> 2:00:46.880 he's the good guy absolutely, you know, he's the sheriff 2:00:46.920 --> 2:00:49.440 in the Western. He's coming in and he's fixing problems 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:54.320 and he's saving the world. But and then apart and 2:00:54.320 --> 2:00:57.680 and and his inability, like it's such a brittle worldview. 2:00:58.160 --> 2:01:02.600 That's yeah, guys, he he is very once, yeah, once 2:01:02.600 --> 2:01:05.320 he's exposed to thinking that the world is maybe different. 2:01:05.360 --> 2:01:10.160 It just totally breaks him. Yeah. His specific arc I 2:01:10.200 --> 2:01:13.840 think is extremely interesting. Um, but I don't want to 2:01:14.000 --> 2:01:16.520 spoil it because I think it's it's it's too it's 2:01:16.520 --> 2:01:18.600 too shocking. Once you get to the final piece of 2:01:18.640 --> 2:01:22.040 his story, you're like, oh wow, um, I think that 2:01:22.120 --> 2:01:23.800 was laid out in a really beautiful way. But it's 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:25.760 it's it's it's not like shocking away like oh this 2:01:25.960 --> 2:01:27.800 this like doesn't make sense. It's like, oh no, yeah, 2:01:27.840 --> 2:01:29.720 I can see that, I can see why he's doing this, 2:01:30.280 --> 2:01:32.640 but it's still it's like you kind of slowly watched 2:01:32.680 --> 2:01:36.480 this guy get broken down piece by piece. Um, you know, 2:01:36.520 --> 2:01:39.240 because he starts he's very much like the superhero FBI agent. 2:01:39.280 --> 2:01:41.400 He's like yeah, ha ha, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop 2:01:41.440 --> 2:01:44.000 these terrorists or whatever, and then he just like yeah, 2:01:44.160 --> 2:01:46.560 watching him progress throughout the story and you can see 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:49.600 like how pathetic he is. Sometimes there's a great uh 2:01:50.160 --> 2:01:53.960 one of the UK spy cops. Um, I forget his name. 2:01:54.200 --> 2:01:56.160 If we're doing this three years ago and I've had 2:01:56.160 --> 2:01:59.640 all these names in my head, but he um uh 2:02:00.080 --> 2:02:02.920 he was assigned and he was he infiltrated this green 2:02:02.960 --> 2:02:05.600 group somewhere in the UK for a couple of years 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:11.480 had this relationship with this girl. Um was participating and facilitating. 2:02:12.520 --> 2:02:14.360 The one detail that I loved and tried to make 2:02:14.400 --> 2:02:17.640 sure he was accurate was all these cops would have 2:02:17.720 --> 2:02:20.440 a van or they would have like a big truck 2:02:20.880 --> 2:02:23.760 in the UK because they realized that, like in these 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:27.640 smaller groups like being the transportation was like your superpower. 2:02:27.720 --> 2:02:29.480 So like if you are someone was like, oh, I'll 2:02:29.560 --> 2:02:31.480 drive everyone to the thing, I'll get us all that 2:02:31.600 --> 2:02:34.720 because I have this big van. UM, that was the 2:02:34.720 --> 2:02:37.240 easiest way to just kind of make yourself useful. Um. 2:02:37.640 --> 2:02:41.000 But this guy is doing all that. At some point, UM, 2:02:41.040 --> 2:02:45.280 they decided to pull him and they pull him out. 2:02:45.360 --> 2:02:47.840 He returns to his wife and his normal life back 2:02:47.840 --> 2:02:52.080 in London. Um. But he can't go back to his 2:02:52.080 --> 2:02:54.920 normal life, and so he starts and he's done all 2:02:54.960 --> 2:02:58.840 the stuff of disappearing, but he just starts getting up 2:02:58.880 --> 2:03:01.480 and driving and maybe he's in the north of England somewhere, 2:03:01.760 --> 2:03:04.000 just just shows back up and he's like, oh, I'm back, guys, 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:05.760 and they're like, oh, ship, what happened? I thought you 2:03:05.800 --> 2:03:07.680 had to like disappear because people are after you, and 2:03:07.720 --> 2:03:11.760 he's like, no, it's all right, ah and just goes 2:03:11.840 --> 2:03:15.400 back to living as an activist. UM. And at some 2:03:15.480 --> 2:03:19.560 point one of his superiors notices that the mileage on 2:03:19.760 --> 2:03:25.120 his police paid vehicle is huge, and they're like, why 2:03:25.200 --> 2:03:27.480 is this guy doing so much? My legion is because 2:03:27.480 --> 2:03:30.880 he's driving all the way back and continuing to live 2:03:30.960 --> 2:03:35.200 this life and inhabit this character that he's set up. UM. 2:03:35.360 --> 2:03:38.480 And at some point I think he gets found out 2:03:38.600 --> 2:03:41.400 and it all goes horribly wrong because he no longer 2:03:41.440 --> 2:03:45.440 has like the fake idea and stuff that they gave him. 2:03:45.480 --> 2:03:48.920 But yeah, I mean that, and it's like that stuff 2:03:48.960 --> 2:03:50.880 is interesting. But then you it was always important to 2:03:50.960 --> 2:03:56.560 never be overly sympathetic. And when you see them struggling, 2:03:58.000 --> 2:04:00.480 there is returns of life. There is certain points where 2:04:00.480 --> 2:04:02.840 you see the FBI agents struggling because of how like 2:04:03.080 --> 2:04:05.840 smug he is. You're like, yes, he's struggling, and you 2:04:05.920 --> 2:04:08.240 like get excited when he gets like when he gets 2:04:08.280 --> 2:04:11.120 like reprimanded or he you know, people are like mad 2:04:11.160 --> 2:04:13.080 at him for various reasons, and it is very interesting 2:04:13.080 --> 2:04:15.600 how you like how sympathies get pulled in certain directions 2:04:15.600 --> 2:04:17.280 because like, by the end of the game, you definitely 2:04:17.800 --> 2:04:20.680 have a much fuller perspective on who this guy is 2:04:20.800 --> 2:04:23.840 and how his kind of psyche works, because he is 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:26.560 really in a lot of ways like kind of pathetic 2:04:26.640 --> 2:04:29.240 as like a person. Um And he like needs to 2:04:29.320 --> 2:04:32.760 like hype himself up for himself, to like make himself 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:35.120 feel like he's special. Then when that gets broken down, 2:04:35.200 --> 2:04:38.320 he just completely collapses. I guess one of the last 2:04:38.320 --> 2:04:41.480 things I want to talk about is like, throughout all 2:04:41.560 --> 2:04:44.160 your games, you have kind of a through line of 2:04:44.160 --> 2:04:46.440 like fairy tales. You kind of you bring in fairy 2:04:46.440 --> 2:04:50.760 tale concepts into all of these games. Um And. I 2:04:50.840 --> 2:04:52.440 like how a lot of your games are very open 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:54.240 ended in some ways. I think of her story being 2:04:54.280 --> 2:04:57.360 much more open ended than than telling lies in some ways. 2:04:57.880 --> 2:05:01.320 Um And, I really like that you kind of you 2:05:01.360 --> 2:05:03.400 can't like look up, like what is the ending of 2:05:03.440 --> 2:05:05.240 this game. It's like no, like you have to piece 2:05:05.240 --> 2:05:07.720 it together in your own brain like that, and whatever 2:05:07.840 --> 2:05:09.800 you think the story is, that's what it is for you. 2:05:09.840 --> 2:05:13.480 There's no like definitive ending, especially like especially for her story. 2:05:13.920 --> 2:05:16.560 Um And how this combines with fairy tales, I think 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:18.640 it's it's a really interesting way to like include like 2:05:18.680 --> 2:05:22.160 mythology into these more modern stories. What's kind of your 2:05:22.200 --> 2:05:25.520 pot process behind you know, kind of kind of including 2:05:25.600 --> 2:05:28.480 mythology and fairy tales into these more like modern stories 2:05:28.480 --> 2:05:31.760 of like you know, people interacting with like government, law enforcement, 2:05:31.760 --> 2:05:33.520 and then just you know, breaking down their own psyches 2:05:33.600 --> 2:05:37.440 under these heightened situations. Yeah, I mean I think it. 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:41.040 I think it came initially with her story of yeah, 2:05:41.400 --> 2:05:47.000 thinking about that, the kind of meta storytelling nous of 2:05:47.040 --> 2:05:49.400 these things, right, of the extent to which now experiments 2:05:49.400 --> 2:05:52.360 and like how we tell stories, um, and but a 2:05:52.400 --> 2:05:55.720 lot of times, like the myths and the the kind 2:05:55.720 --> 2:05:59.760 of classic stories that people go to those right to 2:06:00.040 --> 2:06:05.560 ryan understand the bigger questions or certainly like, um, I 2:06:05.600 --> 2:06:11.120 guess partly came out of Ah, the start of first story, 2:06:11.120 --> 2:06:13.320 I had like two youngest kids, and you're so you're 2:06:13.360 --> 2:06:15.720 reading them all the classic stories, and you realize the 2:06:15.720 --> 2:06:19.320 extent to it, these are just encoding our society's values. Right. 2:06:19.640 --> 2:06:23.400 But I had this incredible book that was that my 2:06:23.440 --> 2:06:26.960 parents got for me, and I tracked down and made 2:06:26.960 --> 2:06:28.680 sure we still had when I had my kids. That 2:06:28.800 --> 2:06:31.720 was called it was like folk Tales of the People's 2:06:31.720 --> 2:06:36.240 of the Soviet Republic from like the early eighties, and 2:06:36.280 --> 2:06:38.200 it was collected like a lot of people. I think 2:06:38.160 --> 2:06:42.200 it was Ukrainian folk tales and they were amazing because 2:06:42.200 --> 2:06:46.080 they were so dark. Like the message of each of 2:06:46.120 --> 2:06:49.560 these stories was trust nobody. The rich will always win, 2:06:49.800 --> 2:06:53.320 you will undet dead and unhappy, right, And each story 2:06:53.400 --> 2:06:57.360 would start with the poor peasant his brother gets rich, 2:06:57.840 --> 2:07:01.320 he asks for help. The brother like is horrible. Like 2:07:01.400 --> 2:07:04.520 this is one story where this brother who's like, oh, 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:08.080 if you want some grain because you're starving, and then 2:07:08.120 --> 2:07:10.240 gouge out your own eye and I'll give you some grain. 2:07:10.280 --> 2:07:11.760 And then it comes back from are grain later and 2:07:11.760 --> 2:07:13.920 he's like, gauge out your other eye. Now, chop off 2:07:13.960 --> 2:07:16.840 your hand. And it's like they're so dark, and I'm like, 2:07:17.040 --> 2:07:21.760 but this is reflecting what it was like to live 2:07:22.120 --> 2:07:24.560 in that world and grew up and you're preparing people 2:07:24.800 --> 2:07:28.920 for the realities. So um, you know, I think that 2:07:29.240 --> 2:07:32.280 to me was really interesting and and her story tells 2:07:32.280 --> 2:07:34.680 this story that kind of to some extent, grows out 2:07:34.680 --> 2:07:37.560 of this childhood and then we're telling lies. Definitely, it 2:07:37.640 --> 2:07:44.360 was part of this idea of of yeah, how Logan's 2:07:44.400 --> 2:07:48.800 character David sees the world and relates to his part 2:07:48.840 --> 2:07:51.320 in it, and like his utter inability to realize that 2:07:51.360 --> 2:07:53.840 he's the bad guy in the story right and thinks 2:07:53.880 --> 2:07:56.960 he's the good guy. Um, And and that was like 2:07:57.040 --> 2:08:00.400 that was partly the key to breaking his character, I 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:02.520 think was his daughter. So he has this character who's 2:08:02.640 --> 2:08:06.360 the six seven year old daughter, and that's like, you know, 2:08:06.440 --> 2:08:09.840 he lets down and does horrible things to a whole 2:08:09.840 --> 2:08:13.320 bunch of people. Um, but the thing he's not going 2:08:13.320 --> 2:08:15.400 to be able to get over is knowing that he's 2:08:15.440 --> 2:08:17.640 laid his daughter down, right, knowing that at some point 2:08:17.720 --> 2:08:21.440 she will grow up and be an adult woman who 2:08:21.480 --> 2:08:24.760 if she learns about what her father has done, we'll 2:08:25.040 --> 2:08:28.360 we'll think less of it and you know, we'll realize 2:08:28.400 --> 2:08:30.560 that he's the bad guy in the fairy tale whatever. 2:08:30.640 --> 2:08:34.560 So um, that was like just interesting to me to 2:08:34.760 --> 2:08:37.080 set him in that moment and have him reading those 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:42.840 stories and see see his relationship with his daughter, and yeah, 2:08:42.880 --> 2:08:46.360 I think that that, Yeah, he end up just relating 2:08:46.400 --> 2:08:48.960 those things back to what are these these kind of 2:08:48.960 --> 2:08:51.880 base values and so much of those folk tales is 2:08:51.920 --> 2:08:53.600 preparing you for the fact that people are going to 2:08:53.680 --> 2:08:55.880 lie to you and trick you and you know all 2:08:55.920 --> 2:08:59.360 those kind of aspects. Yeah, well a lot of them 2:08:59.400 --> 2:09:03.720 do deal with, like, you know, failures of trusting people 2:09:04.040 --> 2:09:06.600 and you know, getting getting let down and being misled. 2:09:06.640 --> 2:09:07.960 A lot a lot of those do kind of follow 2:09:07.960 --> 2:09:12.280 on these same same kind of rough templates. UM. Let's see, 2:09:12.400 --> 2:09:14.120 is there anything you're working on now that you wanna 2:09:14.960 --> 2:09:17.720 that you wanna plug? Um? And of course you know 2:09:17.760 --> 2:09:20.600 people should pick up Telling Lies her story. UM. I 2:09:20.640 --> 2:09:22.640 have them on Steam. I think they are best suited 2:09:22.680 --> 2:09:25.120 to be playing on PC, but you can get them 2:09:25.120 --> 2:09:28.280 on console. We can get them on iOS. But in 2:09:28.360 --> 2:09:33.760 any anything anything upcoming? Yeah, we're working on currently. This 2:09:34.120 --> 2:09:40.320 project is called Immortality UM, which is very ambitious. Uh. 2:09:40.480 --> 2:09:42.960 It will be out next year. It deals with the 2:09:42.960 --> 2:09:46.839 story of an actress who only ever made three movies 2:09:47.440 --> 2:09:50.800 the latter half the twentieth century UM, and then disappeared. 2:09:51.320 --> 2:09:55.880 And we have recovered footage from these three movies. UM. 2:09:56.680 --> 2:10:01.800 It's been interesting because telling Lies, Like, I've always been 2:10:02.040 --> 2:10:05.120 someone that when I think about the kinds of stories 2:10:05.120 --> 2:10:06.840 I want to tell, I've always thought that I'm not 2:10:06.880 --> 2:10:09.720 a capital P politics person, right, I tend to be 2:10:09.800 --> 2:10:12.240 interested in how people relate to each other and some 2:10:12.320 --> 2:10:16.560 of the kind of smaller politics. Um and once I 2:10:16.640 --> 2:10:19.480 got to telling lies, it was like, oh, actually, like 2:10:19.560 --> 2:10:22.920 there is some capital P politics want to present tied 2:10:22.920 --> 2:10:26.000 to all this, and so dug into that was like, well, 2:10:26.040 --> 2:10:27.880 so I want to do right by this. Right, So 2:10:28.040 --> 2:10:30.040 we did involve speaking to lots of people, did involve 2:10:30.080 --> 2:10:32.400 bringing in all the research and everything. Um. So coming 2:10:32.400 --> 2:10:35.720 away from telling lies, and as I mean, it was 2:10:36.120 --> 2:10:41.480 making the game was insane because it was during Trump, right, 2:10:41.600 --> 2:10:44.840 Trump happens, and I remember going into it thing like, 2:10:45.040 --> 2:10:49.280 we're making this story about the FBI being bad. That's 2:10:49.320 --> 2:10:52.880 a pretty reasonable endpoint. And then once we hit Trump, 2:10:52.920 --> 2:10:54.640 you had all that stuff of like the good FBI 2:10:54.680 --> 2:10:57.920 agents and theory or THEBI might be the people that 2:10:58.000 --> 2:11:01.720 bring Trump down, and suddenly they it was leaning into 2:11:01.800 --> 2:11:03.600 the myth of the FBI and I was looked down 2:11:03.600 --> 2:11:08.320 it and just everything getting worse, and it was like, oh, 2:11:08.360 --> 2:11:11.800 this is like so intense to be making something and 2:11:11.840 --> 2:11:15.800 speaking to some of these issues whilst this is all happening. Um. So, 2:11:15.880 --> 2:11:18.120 finishing that, I was like, well, okay, for the next project, 2:11:19.080 --> 2:11:23.400 we are definitely going away from talking about real life 2:11:23.440 --> 2:11:27.640 issues and capital P politics, and then just accidentally it's 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:31.000 become because we're talking about an actress in the twentieth 2:11:31.040 --> 2:11:37.800 century and what it means to make movies, and ah, 2:11:38.120 --> 2:11:41.720 digging into that suddenly becomes about a whole other bunch 2:11:41.760 --> 2:11:46.600 of systemic issues. So yeah, not not managed to avoid 2:11:46.640 --> 2:11:49.240 the politics again, but it's I've been a really really 2:11:49.320 --> 2:11:51.680 interesting project. I think. I think once you crack that 2:11:51.720 --> 2:11:54.960 egg open of realizing that politics are kind of intrinsic 2:11:55.000 --> 2:11:57.640 to every story we tell, it's hard to hand. It's 2:11:57.640 --> 2:11:59.280 hard to kind of put that back in the box 2:11:59.320 --> 2:12:01.600 because once you're realized you can use politics in a 2:12:01.760 --> 2:12:04.960 very interesting and complex storytelling way that still doesn't alienate 2:12:05.000 --> 2:12:07.760 a lot of audiences. It's like, oh, yeah, this is 2:12:07.800 --> 2:12:10.560 just using another way to interact with the world. I 2:12:10.560 --> 2:12:13.120 think that was that was one of the things that 2:12:13.160 --> 2:12:16.640 were slightly disappointing. I guess we're telling lies was like 2:12:16.680 --> 2:12:18.080 we we're working on it. I'm like, we want to 2:12:18.120 --> 2:12:20.200 make sure we get these things right because like, these 2:12:20.200 --> 2:12:23.240 are very important issues and there are some nuances and 2:12:23.280 --> 2:12:26.480 so we you know, we don't want to accidentally say 2:12:26.560 --> 2:12:28.760 something that is incorrect or we don't want to give 2:12:28.800 --> 2:12:32.680 people the impression that we're you know, yeah, yeah, yeah wrong. Um, 2:12:32.960 --> 2:12:36.560 So I was expecting some level of scrutiny in terms 2:12:36.600 --> 2:12:40.160 of discussing the games themes and everything. Um and I 2:12:40.160 --> 2:12:42.800 guess like the video games world is still not quite 2:12:44.120 --> 2:12:46.480 ready for that. Like they're quite happy to talk about 2:12:46.480 --> 2:12:48.440 the game mechanics and how this thing will works since 2:12:48.440 --> 2:12:52.400 we big picture emotional responses, but no one's willing to 2:12:52.480 --> 2:12:55.840 kind of dig deeper. And we had like as the 2:12:55.920 --> 2:12:58.000 game was coming out and continues to be, you have 2:12:58.760 --> 2:13:01.000 the bigger name developers being like, there's no politics in 2:13:01.000 --> 2:13:05.560 our video games. As they're like to make a game 2:13:05.640 --> 2:13:09.640 about you know, you know, being a black Ops unit 2:13:09.720 --> 2:13:11.960 taking down communist countries. We're not gonna about politics. We're 2:13:11.960 --> 2:13:17.600 gonna yeah that constantly a constantly just saying it's it's 2:13:17.640 --> 2:13:20.280 possible that they'll always say we we both sides it right, Well, 2:13:20.320 --> 2:13:22.480 we'll tell both sides and let people make the decision. 2:13:22.800 --> 2:13:25.720 And something that was very adamant was very im porn 2:13:25.800 --> 2:13:29.520 to me on telling lies was like, if we're making 2:13:29.560 --> 2:13:34.040 this game, it is not the point of the game 2:13:34.160 --> 2:13:37.560 is not to give you a mush of information and 2:13:37.760 --> 2:13:43.680 have you decide the moral. Yeah, good or bad, something 2:13:44.280 --> 2:13:48.120 like we're going into this with the assumption that we 2:13:48.200 --> 2:13:50.560 in the audience or most of the audience believe that 2:13:52.160 --> 2:13:54.640 people doing these things are wrong, and then we're just 2:13:54.760 --> 2:13:56.960 And then I'm interested in what does it due to 2:13:57.080 --> 2:13:59.120 the people, What what is it like to be in 2:13:59.160 --> 2:14:02.280 this world? What are the consequences of ramifications? How does 2:14:02.360 --> 2:14:05.080 one exist and continue to live a life after having 2:14:05.080 --> 2:14:08.040 been involved in these things? So for me, a political 2:14:08.120 --> 2:14:12.520 game is it can't be the political story in any media. 2:14:12.920 --> 2:14:16.240 It can't be going back to first principles pretending we're 2:14:16.280 --> 2:14:18.240 in debate club, because I just I think that's just 2:14:18.480 --> 2:14:21.600 that's absolutely lies the audience. I think you can say 2:14:22.160 --> 2:14:26.240 a political story is one which embraces and acknowledges the 2:14:26.320 --> 2:14:30.080 reality of the various power struggles and inequalities that we 2:14:30.120 --> 2:14:33.000 have and then has something to say about or has 2:14:33.000 --> 2:14:35.680 a particular angle it wants to interrogate, or something it 2:14:35.680 --> 2:14:38.760 wants to shed light on. But it's very childish, and 2:14:38.800 --> 2:14:41.760 I think we're definitely struggling with this in video games, 2:14:41.800 --> 2:14:44.880 to be like, oh, if it's about politics, then it 2:14:44.880 --> 2:14:48.320 should be a big question and we should assume no answers, right, 2:14:48.320 --> 2:14:51.440 and it's like, yeah, this is a completely bullshit and 2:14:51.440 --> 2:14:54.400 and it kind of it can lead to some problematic ways, 2:14:54.400 --> 2:14:56.640 which is why you see a lot of you know, 2:14:56.720 --> 2:15:01.960 game footage in actual like harorist propaganda, like with like 2:15:01.960 --> 2:15:03.920 like with like not sayings and white supremacist stuff. They 2:15:04.040 --> 2:15:06.879 use a lot of game footage in their propaganda videos 2:15:07.120 --> 2:15:09.760 when especially when it's like both sides of these issues. Yeah, 2:15:09.920 --> 2:15:12.560 it's a I have I have a particular interest in 2:15:12.600 --> 2:15:15.560 the intersection between like politics, extremism, and gaming because the 2:15:15.680 --> 2:15:19.200 gaming is very important to our modern kind of extremist 2:15:19.360 --> 2:15:22.720 ecosystem um, particularly around like four Chan and like you know, 2:15:22.720 --> 2:15:25.360 like mass shootings. All of these things play into game culture. 2:15:25.480 --> 2:15:27.800 Not not not saying games cause these events to happen, because 2:15:27.840 --> 2:15:30.960 they don't, but like the way they interact with these 2:15:31.000 --> 2:15:33.560 people is actually interesting. You know, this is very different 2:15:33.560 --> 2:15:34.880 from like the way like this Senate is like, oh, 2:15:34.920 --> 2:15:37.040 games are causing mass shooting because they're not. Yeah, I 2:15:37.040 --> 2:15:39.920 think it's it's it's it's it's it's a completely separate thing. 2:15:40.120 --> 2:15:43.480 It's it's there is there is a Fox News kind 2:15:43.480 --> 2:15:47.200 of hysteria around gaming. But at the same time, like 2:15:47.360 --> 2:15:50.240 and and clearly, you know, one way I pitched her story. 2:15:50.280 --> 2:15:52.280 When I was telling people why it was interesting, It's like, 2:15:52.320 --> 2:15:54.640 this is a game about listening. I was like, that's 2:15:54.720 --> 2:15:59.120 cool because you know, whatever you think about the larger 2:15:59.160 --> 2:16:01.680 politics of it, or or the question of whether video 2:16:01.680 --> 2:16:04.760 games themselves are inherently harmful or anything like, the fact 2:16:04.760 --> 2:16:07.960 that's still the stories we tell are about someone with 2:16:08.000 --> 2:16:09.640 a gun in their hand or assault in their hand, 2:16:10.160 --> 2:16:13.520 and the power dynamics and the story the types of 2:16:13.560 --> 2:16:17.200 stories and the types of protagonists, Like, it's screwed up. 2:16:17.280 --> 2:16:20.160 And I think to the same extent that the fact that, 2:16:20.240 --> 2:16:24.120 like the Marvel Cinematic Universe is about a bunch of 2:16:24.120 --> 2:16:28.280 glorified cops going around saying in the world, like, you know, 2:16:28.560 --> 2:16:32.920 if you continue to reinforce these things, yeahbously, all of 2:16:32.959 --> 2:16:35.520 the art we make are saying certain things about the world, 2:16:35.640 --> 2:16:38.040 and we're reinforcing a certain narrative over and over again 2:16:38.240 --> 2:16:40.960 and not really thinking critically about it. Yeah, that's a 2:16:41.080 --> 2:16:44.400 problem with making art. I mean, I'm not trying to 2:16:44.440 --> 2:16:46.200 conf as being anti gamer. I would play a lot 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:48.600 of games. I really like gaming. I just think some 2:16:48.600 --> 2:16:53.120 some companies need to figure out why why certain games 2:16:53.160 --> 2:16:57.360 are used in mass shooting manifestoes in certain games aren't 2:16:58.120 --> 2:17:01.360 particularly around like politics, like the particularly talking about like 2:17:01.360 --> 2:17:04.320 white supremacy, and how certain games kind of playing too 2:17:04.360 --> 2:17:06.760 certain things. Because even even a game like wilfon Stein, 2:17:06.800 --> 2:17:09.280 which I think handles this topic very well, still will 2:17:09.360 --> 2:17:11.959 you know, get brought up in certain you know, propagandi 2:17:12.040 --> 2:17:14.920 videos because they do have cool shots of Nazis walking around. Right, 2:17:14.920 --> 2:17:18.439 that's the kind of the problem with some of these things. Um. 2:17:18.480 --> 2:17:20.320 And you know, if they weren't killing if Nazis weren't 2:17:20.400 --> 2:17:21.880 killing people as much as wouldn't be as much of 2:17:21.879 --> 2:17:24.400 a problem. But because that's still a thing, that's still 2:17:24.400 --> 2:17:27.320 a thing that needs to get talked about. Anyway, this 2:17:27.440 --> 2:17:30.240 this this took a very sad sad turned towards the 2:17:30.360 --> 2:17:33.840 end of anyway. Yeah, I will, I will, I will 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:38.640 just strongly recommend playing her story, playing telling lies. I 2:17:38.680 --> 2:17:45.080 think these games, you know, interrogate our our predispositions about 2:17:45.160 --> 2:17:49.480 about kind of police detective work, um, and you just 2:17:49.480 --> 2:17:50.720 get to learn a lot. You get to learn a 2:17:50.720 --> 2:17:52.840 lot about like people on characters because like a lot 2:17:52.840 --> 2:17:54.320 of these games, you know where the setup is, like, oh, 2:17:54.360 --> 2:17:57.360 solve this crime or mystery. But then by the end, 2:17:57.400 --> 2:17:59.440 you're solving a very different mystery and you're kind of 2:17:59.440 --> 2:18:01.760 solving what makes the person tick, and it's very You've 2:18:02.240 --> 2:18:04.039 I really like the art that you have in your games. 2:18:04.360 --> 2:18:07.200 They've brought me a lot of happiness. So thank you. 2:18:07.200 --> 2:18:09.480 Thank you for that, and thank you for talking with 2:18:09.520 --> 2:18:14.800 all of us, um about your work. I'm jo, thank you, 2:18:14.840 --> 2:18:17.360 thank you for having me and uh yeah, like I say, 2:18:17.480 --> 2:18:21.640 I was, I was hoping to have hundreds more conversations 2:18:21.680 --> 2:18:25.279 about what Telling Lies was about and about these issues 2:18:25.400 --> 2:18:28.720 when it came out. But it's uh, you know that, 2:18:29.560 --> 2:18:33.040 it's I mean, it's hot just general media landscape now, 2:18:33.080 --> 2:18:34.760 like you put something out there and it comes out 2:18:34.800 --> 2:18:37.680 and people consume it, Yeah, move on, Like you don't 2:18:37.760 --> 2:18:43.720 have that it's bad of like discussion that I don't know, 2:18:43.800 --> 2:18:45.840 it feels like it used to used to be a thing. Yeah, 2:18:46.040 --> 2:18:47.640 I think it definitely did did used to be a thing. 2:18:47.680 --> 2:18:52.360 And definitely your games have had an influence on media 2:18:52.440 --> 2:18:54.320 in certain ways. And I know there's been like a 2:18:54.320 --> 2:18:56.480 few other like projects that like Netflix is doing that 2:18:56.640 --> 2:18:58.920 is kind of taking your concept but not really doing 2:18:58.920 --> 2:19:04.200 it correctly. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's definitely been a lot. Yeah, 2:19:04.200 --> 2:19:06.040 people always send me them. They're like, oh, this sounds 2:19:06.040 --> 2:19:08.760 a lot like a story, this thing, and it's like, oh, 2:19:08.800 --> 2:19:13.959 but it's it's build non linear. Yeah, exactly like you 2:19:14.040 --> 2:19:16.560 let people. I don't. Yeah. Usually it's like watch the 2:19:16.760 --> 2:19:18.840 eight episodes. You can watch them in any order, which 2:19:18.920 --> 2:19:21.600 isn't how her story works. No, yeah, like, yeah, there's 2:19:21.680 --> 2:19:23.240 there's a yeah, there's a whole different thing going on. 2:19:23.520 --> 2:19:27.120 But no, I mean it's it's interesting times for that 2:19:27.160 --> 2:19:31.599 sort of stuff. But anyway, play these games on Steam 2:19:31.640 --> 2:19:33.959 and that that doesn't for today. You can follow the 2:19:33.959 --> 2:19:36.800 show on Twitter and Instagram, at Happening here pod and 2:19:36.959 --> 2:19:39.240 cool Zone Media. Do you have Do you have a 2:19:39.280 --> 2:19:41.160 social media that you would like to plug or would 2:19:41.200 --> 2:19:46.120 your people? If people are on Twitter, that's where I 2:19:46.160 --> 2:19:50.160 tend to be despite its despite yeah, I know, I am. 2:19:50.200 --> 2:19:54.440 I am Mr Sambalow on Twitter, Mr sambal I will 2:19:54.440 --> 2:19:57.080 say I I actually I actually do like your Twitter account. 2:19:57.240 --> 2:19:59.480 You do. You do post some fun stuff every once 2:19:59.520 --> 2:20:04.119 in a while. That's that's kind of a weird contescen 2:20:04.120 --> 2:20:14.000 thing we think to say of anyway, by for Puddy, 2:20:14.640 --> 2:20:17.240 that's gonna that's gonna be way too jarring to open 2:20:17.280 --> 2:20:21.080 an episode ware, Well, we already did it, so keep moving. Yeah, 2:20:21.200 --> 2:20:24.280 uh huh. Um, the episode is actually gonna start with 2:20:24.560 --> 2:20:27.600 Garrison saying that's way too jarring to open an episode with, 2:20:27.680 --> 2:20:30.440 and the listeners won't know that that is a much 2:20:30.440 --> 2:20:35.320 easier opening. Um, alright, so we're doing I'm gonna be 2:20:35.400 --> 2:20:37.560 I'm gonna be reading a thing today and then we're 2:20:37.560 --> 2:20:40.039 going to talk about the thing that we're reading. Um, 2:20:40.080 --> 2:20:44.199 and and and who are you? And who is here? Oh? Yeah, 2:20:44.240 --> 2:20:46.720 this is it happen here, this is it could happen here. 2:20:47.000 --> 2:20:52.640 I'm I'm Garrison, I am our resident Canadian. Yeah, that's Anderson. 2:20:53.280 --> 2:20:55.160 That's Anderson the dog in here. We had we had 2:20:55.200 --> 2:20:59.640 to hire a Canadian for a diversity quota. You don't 2:21:00.040 --> 2:21:05.520 you do not anyway, we have Chris here, Robert Evans 2:21:05.520 --> 2:21:10.200 as usual, um, and Sophie. So we're gonna talk about 2:21:10.360 --> 2:21:12.720 We're gonna talk a little bit about about Canada today. 2:21:12.879 --> 2:21:17.240 So in the in like descripted what if scenarios first 2:21:17.280 --> 2:21:19.800 positive in the original it could happen here. Um. It 2:21:19.840 --> 2:21:21.800 detailed what it might be like to live in the 2:21:21.840 --> 2:21:25.600 United States during a modern civil conflict. And like one 2:21:25.640 --> 2:21:27.680 of the stories that we kind of tell ourselves as 2:21:27.680 --> 2:21:30.120 a culture is about you know, crossing up into the 2:21:30.120 --> 2:21:34.880 safe haven of Canada whenever stuff breaks out in the States. Um, 2:21:35.000 --> 2:21:37.000 whether that be like an escape from just the hell 2:21:37.040 --> 2:21:39.880 that's us politics, um, or you know, going up into 2:21:39.959 --> 2:21:43.240 the cold northern terrain better equipped to deal with climate change. 2:21:43.520 --> 2:21:46.280 Canada is kind of just viewed as a bass gien 2:21:46.320 --> 2:21:49.720 of like of liberal democracy in North America. UM. You know, 2:21:49.760 --> 2:21:51.760 I've I've made jokes in the past about using my 2:21:51.800 --> 2:21:54.480 Canadian passport to escape up into the forest of Alberta 2:21:54.760 --> 2:21:57.280 when things get too dicey here in the States. But 2:21:57.400 --> 2:22:01.000 this like weird utopian view of Canada, uh is not 2:22:01.120 --> 2:22:05.840 just wrong about Canada's current political state, but also assumes 2:22:05.879 --> 2:22:08.320 that Canada is like immune to the political shifts that 2:22:08.320 --> 2:22:11.160 the States have gone through the past few years. Which 2:22:11.200 --> 2:22:16.240 is it's it's very obviously not um so like Canada 2:22:16.440 --> 2:22:19.800 internationally is and specifically in the States, it's it's used 2:22:19.800 --> 2:22:21.680 as like, you know, Canada, it's it's used it's like 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:25.360 America's little brother, but it's you know, it's much more 2:22:25.600 --> 2:22:28.080 you know, democratic, it's much more liberal. It's like it's 2:22:28.120 --> 2:22:31.400 like this kind of ideal scenario for like what the 2:22:31.480 --> 2:22:35.200 state's could be, and like Canadians have a weird view 2:22:35.240 --> 2:22:38.560 of the States as well. Like Canadians, they're both like 2:22:38.720 --> 2:22:40.760 the like they're kind of obsessed, Like a lot of 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:43.360 Canadians think no more about US politics and then they 2:22:43.400 --> 2:22:47.080 know about Canadian politics, um, but almost in like a 2:22:47.120 --> 2:22:49.920 way that we watch sports. It's it's like it's like 2:22:49.959 --> 2:22:52.959 this thing that we like watch as entertainment, like like 2:22:53.000 --> 2:22:55.240 some kind of like sick reality show. That's how I 2:22:55.320 --> 2:22:58.400 think a lot of Canadians really view US politics, um, 2:22:58.440 --> 2:23:02.480 because it's just so wacky compared to the kind of 2:23:02.480 --> 2:23:05.280 more like civil parliamentary system that we have in Canada. 2:23:05.560 --> 2:23:08.880 US politics just looks very, very bizarre, and there's always 2:23:08.920 --> 2:23:11.680 this notion it's like, no matter how bad things can 2:23:11.720 --> 2:23:14.320 get in Canada, at least we're not the States. At 2:23:14.400 --> 2:23:16.480 least at least we're not at least we're not the US. 2:23:16.920 --> 2:23:18.640 And that is kind of a lot of a lot 2:23:18.720 --> 2:23:20.880 of how a lot of stuff can get really get 2:23:21.040 --> 2:23:26.720 can just like surviving Canada longer, because it's just they 2:23:26.840 --> 2:23:29.920 view it like at least, at least we're not as 2:23:29.920 --> 2:23:33.000 bad as the other people. So that's how you know 2:23:33.000 --> 2:23:34.880 it gives them kind of some kind of sense of security. 2:23:35.160 --> 2:23:37.680 But in terms of like, in terms of Canada as 2:23:37.680 --> 2:23:40.040 a country, you know, we we we've said that Canada 2:23:40.080 --> 2:23:42.600 as a country is basically just you know, a few 2:23:42.640 --> 2:23:44.840 mining companies in a trench coat, and the trench coat 2:23:44.920 --> 2:23:47.520 is healthcare. Um. And that's that's really all they are 2:23:47.640 --> 2:23:51.280 is as as as a country. UM. But today we're 2:23:51.280 --> 2:23:56.520 gonna be talking about kind of Canada's slide towards farther 2:23:56.720 --> 2:24:00.680 right wing politics, UM. Both you know, historically and then 2:24:00.840 --> 2:24:02.760 more recently, because a lot of what we've seen in 2:24:02.760 --> 2:24:05.760 the States has happened kind of in its own weird 2:24:05.920 --> 2:24:09.600 Canadian way around the same time. UM. But before we 2:24:09.600 --> 2:24:12.080 really before we really get started, I think it would 2:24:12.080 --> 2:24:14.200 be remiss not to mention how the Canadian government has 2:24:14.240 --> 2:24:17.720 historically treated Indigenous and First Nations people um, living on 2:24:17.760 --> 2:24:21.000 that land. Of course, it's like not only just hundreds 2:24:20.959 --> 2:24:22.880 of years ago, but a lot more recently as well. 2:24:23.120 --> 2:24:25.120 Just in the past year, there have been thousands and 2:24:25.160 --> 2:24:28.400 thousands of like hidden graves found across the provinces at 2:24:28.440 --> 2:24:31.520 the sites of these residential schools. UM. And the process 2:24:31.520 --> 2:24:33.880 of looking for these on Martin graves has like just 2:24:33.879 --> 2:24:38.199 just started. UM. The Canadian Historical Association published a letter 2:24:38.280 --> 2:24:41.039 this past Canada Day Canada Day is like Independence Day 2:24:41.080 --> 2:24:44.920 but for Canada, UM, saying that it was abundantly clear 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:48.400 that Canada is guilty of is guilty of genocide. UM. 2:24:48.440 --> 2:24:51.400 I know there's there's a few episodes behind the Bastards, UM, 2:24:51.440 --> 2:24:53.360 and I think even worse here that that talk about 2:24:53.560 --> 2:24:58.160 residential schools UM and and the genocide of Indigenous Canada. 2:24:58.320 --> 2:24:59.840 So you can you can check those out. And I 2:25:00.160 --> 2:25:03.879 this episode to be more focused on Canada's political shifts 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:05.840 the past five years. But since we're talking to be 2:25:05.879 --> 2:25:08.680 talking about Canadian fascism, I thought it would be irresponsible 2:25:08.680 --> 2:25:13.920 to not mention this upfront as like a thing responsible responsible. 2:25:14.040 --> 2:25:16.640 So I'm gonna try to take us through aspects of 2:25:16.680 --> 2:25:21.160 Canadians of Canada's politics chronologically. UM. You guys can button 2:25:21.200 --> 2:25:24.480 and kind of ask questions and clarifications about stuff. UM. 2:25:24.560 --> 2:25:26.320 But the first thing that we're gonna start with is 2:25:26.320 --> 2:25:28.520 actually going to be on the First Nations side of things, 2:25:28.600 --> 2:25:30.840 and that that's kind of how that that's what mostly 2:25:30.879 --> 2:25:33.760 Indigenous people are called in Canada's First Nations. UM. Even 2:25:33.800 --> 2:25:36.040 you know the Indigenous people up in Canada, most amuse 2:25:36.160 --> 2:25:37.720 that term. So that's the term I'll be using for 2:25:37.800 --> 2:25:39.360 some some of this stuff, just because that's the one 2:25:39.400 --> 2:25:46.040 that's used up there. Um. So the the residential School's 2:25:46.040 --> 2:25:48.160 program is where I'm gonna briefly mention a few things 2:25:48.200 --> 2:25:50.160 about it, just because of how it kind of relates 2:25:50.160 --> 2:25:51.680 to some of the stuff that we're gonna be talking 2:25:51.720 --> 2:25:55.119 with for the rest of the episode. UM Yeah, I'm 2:25:55.280 --> 2:25:57.440 gonna I'm gonna read someone. I'm gonna read some words 2:25:57.920 --> 2:26:01.680 by by Duncan Can Bull Scott. Who was the department 2:26:01.879 --> 2:26:05.280 Who was who was the Deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs. 2:26:05.360 --> 2:26:08.600 This was like a rank in the Canadian government. Um. 2:26:08.640 --> 2:26:11.920 He served as the Deputy Superintendent from nineteen thirteen to 2:26:12.040 --> 2:26:14.840 nineteen thirty two. UM. And he's arguably like the main 2:26:14.959 --> 2:26:18.080 architect of the residential schools program. Um he was. He 2:26:18.120 --> 2:26:21.600 was also good friends with the first Prime Minister of Canada, 2:26:21.720 --> 2:26:27.240 John John John McDonald. So here's here's here's how this 2:26:27.280 --> 2:26:31.680 guy the the architect of this program. This is this 2:26:31.760 --> 2:26:34.400 is how he kind of talked talked about this in 2:26:34.480 --> 2:26:37.440 letters to both his like his underlings and just like 2:26:37.520 --> 2:26:41.480 openly quote it is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose 2:26:41.520 --> 2:26:44.680 their natural resistance to illness by habituating so close in 2:26:44.720 --> 2:26:46.720 the residential schools, and that they die at a much 2:26:46.800 --> 2:26:49.280 higher rate than in their villages. But this does not 2:26:49.360 --> 2:26:51.560 justify a change in the policy of this department, which 2:26:51.600 --> 2:26:55.439 is geared towards a final solution for our Indian problem. 2:26:55.480 --> 2:26:57.119 It is quite within the market to say that fifty 2:26:57.160 --> 2:26:59.440 percent of children who passed through these schools did not 2:26:59.480 --> 2:27:01.240 live to ben of fit from the education in which 2:27:01.280 --> 2:27:05.600 they had received. So that's that's just what he calls it. 2:27:05.720 --> 2:27:08.320 He he says, the final solution to the Indian problem. 2:27:08.320 --> 2:27:12.040 It's very very very clear. What what like that? That's 2:27:12.080 --> 2:27:14.320 just the language he uses. And this was like before 2:27:14.360 --> 2:27:18.879 Hitler though, like this was this was attention to these Yeah, 2:27:19.040 --> 2:27:20.600 yeah like this. This is just like this is the 2:27:20.640 --> 2:27:22.920 mindset of all of these same people. This is all 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:27.080 of all of the same thing. Um. Another another another 2:27:27.160 --> 2:27:29.680 quote from this dude is I want to get rid 2:27:29.720 --> 2:27:31.320 of the Indian problem. I do not think of it 2:27:31.360 --> 2:27:33.120 as a matter of fact that the country ought to 2:27:33.160 --> 2:27:35.800 continually protect a class of people who are able to 2:27:35.840 --> 2:27:38.600 stand alone. That's my whole point our objective is to 2:27:38.600 --> 2:27:41.160 continue until there's not a single Indian in Canada that 2:27:41.160 --> 2:27:44.120 has not been absorbed into the into the body politic, 2:27:44.240 --> 2:27:47.800 and there's no Indian question and no Indian department. That 2:27:47.920 --> 2:27:50.560 is the whole objective of this bill. The bill referring 2:27:50.560 --> 2:27:55.160 to the residential schools program. So that's that's how he 2:27:55.240 --> 2:27:57.600 talks about these things. Um. There there's other letters that 2:27:57.680 --> 2:28:01.440 he's sent that's like telling is um his like agents 2:28:01.440 --> 2:28:04.879 because he had like agents stationed at at Canadian at 2:28:04.879 --> 2:28:08.840 Canadian reserves to like not let Indians do dancing because 2:28:08.879 --> 2:28:11.360 both that's you know, that's doing their cultural practice, but 2:28:11.360 --> 2:28:13.360 also it will distract them from learning how to do 2:28:13.480 --> 2:28:16.320 Western farming. Um. Like they weren't allowed to go to 2:28:16.480 --> 2:28:20.840 fairs or exhibitions or anything that you like that anything 2:28:20.879 --> 2:28:23.360 that has like that is reminiscent of like any kind 2:28:23.360 --> 2:28:28.039 of cultural tradition that is not white in European. Um. 2:28:28.160 --> 2:28:30.840 So he he is, he is a pretty pretty pretty 2:28:30.879 --> 2:28:33.360 bad dude. He probably deserves his own his own thing 2:28:33.520 --> 2:28:35.920 that this this specific guy. But you can can you 2:28:35.920 --> 2:28:37.800 can kind of see like these like fascist ideas and 2:28:37.840 --> 2:28:40.480 rhetoric are not foreign to Canada. Um. And you know 2:28:40.560 --> 2:28:44.720 it's been there since its infancy. Now, Canadian politics is 2:28:44.800 --> 2:28:47.640 very different in a lot of ways compared to American politics. Uh. 2:28:47.720 --> 2:28:50.440 Canada tries to kind of follow the European model, whereas 2:28:50.440 --> 2:28:52.840 America is very much like the rebel state that tries 2:28:52.879 --> 2:28:55.360 to play on its play by its own rules. Um. 2:28:55.560 --> 2:28:58.680 Kind of the first main difference is that Canada isn't 2:28:58.680 --> 2:29:01.920 a two party system. Um. It's it's more like a 2:29:01.959 --> 2:29:04.240 two party plus system, because yeah, there still is the 2:29:04.280 --> 2:29:06.480 main Liberals and the main Conservatives, but there are there 2:29:06.480 --> 2:29:09.560 are other parties that actually can get elected. Um. And 2:29:09.600 --> 2:29:11.760 it's it's not it's not like a strictly two party 2:29:11.760 --> 2:29:13.760 system the same way the States is. So that makes 2:29:13.800 --> 2:29:17.760 things more interesting. Um. And another thing that's really interesting 2:29:17.760 --> 2:29:20.600 about like a cultural politics that's that's different from the States. 2:29:20.720 --> 2:29:22.840 You know. Besides, you know, Canada obviously has like a 2:29:22.879 --> 2:29:27.640 parliament and a prime minister. That's different, but that Canada 2:29:28.280 --> 2:29:33.000 view and Canadians view nationalism and patriotism very differently, uh, 2:29:33.040 --> 2:29:38.760 compared to to like United States. Um. Citizens patriotism and 2:29:38.800 --> 2:29:41.760 in some ways nationalism have always been kind of more 2:29:41.760 --> 2:29:45.199 of a liberal, progressive thing, um. You know, in opposition 2:29:45.240 --> 2:29:48.120 to the states where it is not really seen as 2:29:48.120 --> 2:29:51.400 a liberal progressive thing. Um. It's like, even under conservative leadership, 2:29:52.240 --> 2:29:54.320 Canada kind of prides itself as as sort of like 2:29:54.440 --> 2:29:57.000 liberal utopia. And that's where a lot of the patriotism 2:29:57.000 --> 2:29:59.520 and celebration of Canada comes from among its you know, 2:29:59.560 --> 2:30:02.760 mostly liberal and more socially progressive citizens. They like celebrate 2:30:02.800 --> 2:30:05.840 Canada as like this great progressive nation, and that's where 2:30:05.840 --> 2:30:08.240 a lot of the patriotism comes from, is like, oh, 2:30:08.280 --> 2:30:11.879 look look how progressive we are. Um. Then the nationalism 2:30:11.920 --> 2:30:14.200 part can be a bit more tricky, uh, because you 2:30:14.240 --> 2:30:17.320 first need to understand like the English and French divide 2:30:17.760 --> 2:30:20.560 which within the country, which I barely understand that to 2:30:20.840 --> 2:30:22.560 be honest. I was I was, I was. I was 2:30:22.600 --> 2:30:25.039 born in the Prairies. That was you know, much more 2:30:25.080 --> 2:30:29.200 of like the Protestant English Ilish English settlement. You know, 2:30:29.240 --> 2:30:31.800 I'm not from Quebec, but we'll be talking about Quebec 2:30:31.840 --> 2:30:33.440 a lot here because it is very important to how 2:30:33.560 --> 2:30:37.240 nationalism works in Canada. So the divide between the French 2:30:37.240 --> 2:30:41.199 and the English make elections really interesting because the English 2:30:41.240 --> 2:30:44.520 majority politicians usually need to court some of the French 2:30:44.560 --> 2:30:48.039 Canadian population and and people in Quebec in order to 2:30:48.040 --> 2:30:51.320 get enough parliamentary seats to have a majority government, because 2:30:51.760 --> 2:30:55.680 Canada works on having a majority within the parliament. Um, 2:30:55.879 --> 2:30:58.160 you can have a minority in in in the parliament 2:30:58.160 --> 2:31:00.640 like the Liberals currently have. So even if you know, 2:31:00.760 --> 2:31:02.920 someone doesn't win a plurality of votes, that can still 2:31:02.959 --> 2:31:04.959 be in control of the government in an in a 2:31:04.959 --> 2:31:07.520 minority or usually a majority capacity. We'll get into this 2:31:07.560 --> 2:31:11.160 kind of stuff later. Um. But even though they need 2:31:11.200 --> 2:31:13.800 to get seats from Quebec to have you know, a 2:31:13.800 --> 2:31:16.760 decent control of parliament, Quebec kind of likes to act 2:31:16.760 --> 2:31:19.800 like its own special country. Um. They even have their 2:31:19.800 --> 2:31:23.480 own like federal political party, uh, the Block Kepuqua and 2:31:23.640 --> 2:31:25.400 so like that. That that's a that's a federal party 2:31:25.440 --> 2:31:30.400 that operates in forwarding the interests of Quebec. Sometimes it 2:31:30.440 --> 2:31:35.000 functions as like a separatist party, but not really anymore. Um. So, 2:31:35.120 --> 2:31:40.040 although the Block Keuqua is a lot is a lot 2:31:40.120 --> 2:31:43.600 more secular and progressive than basically any any other major 2:31:43.640 --> 2:31:46.960 party outside of the n d P UM but despite 2:31:46.959 --> 2:31:49.600 them being much more like socially progressive that are also 2:31:49.840 --> 2:31:53.240 like one of the biggest nationalist parties um in Canada, 2:31:53.680 --> 2:31:57.400 and you know, the far right parties in Canada have 2:31:57.600 --> 2:32:00.400 had always had their you know, brand of ethno nationalism, 2:32:01.360 --> 2:32:03.959 but that was that's that's been much less pronounced than 2:32:04.000 --> 2:32:06.760 the kind of like keep non French Canadians out of 2:32:06.800 --> 2:32:10.160 Quebec and keep Americans out of Canada type of nationalism 2:32:10.200 --> 2:32:13.320 that's common with like liberals UM and specifically you know, 2:32:13.360 --> 2:32:16.600 progressives inside Quebec, which you can't blame them for wanting 2:32:16.640 --> 2:32:19.760 to keep Americans no, yeah, like you can good sense. 2:32:19.840 --> 2:32:22.440 If I could keep Americans out of America, I would 2:32:22.480 --> 2:32:25.360 do it. Yeah. But so that kind of sentiment, you 2:32:25.360 --> 2:32:28.240 can see how that connect, like you know, be used 2:32:28.280 --> 2:32:32.200 to foster some not good things though that that that 2:32:32.200 --> 2:32:35.080 that specific type of thinking of of like keeping nationals, 2:32:35.120 --> 2:32:38.320 like you know, keeping four nationals out of your state. Yeah, 2:32:38.440 --> 2:32:40.720 it's good to not have Americans there, but you know 2:32:40.800 --> 2:32:45.400 that's going to get extended towards other people's unfortunate Yeah, 2:32:45.480 --> 2:32:47.800 and and like so even though you know, the nationalism 2:32:47.840 --> 2:32:50.000 can be a lot more progressive, that's not to say 2:32:50.000 --> 2:32:52.960 as no nationalism does not come up within these sex 2:32:53.440 --> 2:32:56.120 um which is going to bring us to uh when 2:32:56.200 --> 2:33:00.119 when a briefly talk about something from the thirties call 2:33:00.160 --> 2:33:03.480 the called the National Unity Party of the National Unity 2:33:03.560 --> 2:33:07.560 Party of Canada. Um, the National Union National Unity Party. 2:33:07.640 --> 2:33:10.520 That is a weird thing to say. Um was was 2:33:10.560 --> 2:33:15.560 originally called the Canadian National Socialist Unity Party. Oh wait, 2:33:15.600 --> 2:33:23.080 now that remindmate national socialism. That seems like a term 2:33:23.080 --> 2:33:26.400 with a little bit of baggage. Yeah, remember correctly, yep, 2:33:27.120 --> 2:33:29.640 it sort of does. Um so that this was a 2:33:29.680 --> 2:33:33.920 party formed in nineteen thirty four by a little Nazi 2:33:33.920 --> 2:33:37.560 shirt head named Adrian R. Khan. Um. Now that is 2:33:37.560 --> 2:33:39.119 if you cannot tell that it's me trying to say 2:33:39.120 --> 2:33:41.120 a French name. So he is from Quebec. This is 2:33:41.160 --> 2:33:45.959 a lot of Canadian Nazi stuff originates inside Quebec because 2:33:45.959 --> 2:33:50.760 it already has such nationalist tendencies. Um So. Our cohns 2:33:50.800 --> 2:33:53.800 introduction into nationalism started around the turn of the century 2:33:54.320 --> 2:33:58.200 amid fears in Quebec that Chinese immigration would threaten the 2:33:58.280 --> 2:34:01.840 white French Canadian working class. Um, this is still a 2:34:01.879 --> 2:34:05.880 big thing in Canada. Uh. Racism and nationalism against the 2:34:05.959 --> 2:34:08.199 Chinese is still a big thing. We will talk about 2:34:08.240 --> 2:34:10.160 this at the very end of this of this of 2:34:10.160 --> 2:34:12.240 of these episodes because it's that's still a thing the 2:34:12.280 --> 2:34:16.480 Conservative Party talks about a lot um. So, yeah, his 2:34:16.600 --> 2:34:19.920 his internationalism was because of fears of Chinese immigration in 2:34:19.920 --> 2:34:23.920 the early nineteen hundreds. Um the the anti his so 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:26.880 his anti immigrants upbringing, plus the fact that he attended 2:34:26.879 --> 2:34:29.200 the Catholic school um that there there there was no 2:34:29.280 --> 2:34:31.800 there was no public schools in Quebec until the nineteen sixties. 2:34:31.959 --> 2:34:35.600 All of the schools were either Catholic or Protestant. Now, 2:34:35.760 --> 2:34:38.520 this is also part of the cultural divide inside Canada, 2:34:38.560 --> 2:34:41.320 where usually the English speakers are Protestant and they're usually 2:34:41.360 --> 2:34:44.800 further west and the and the Catholics are usually you know, 2:34:44.840 --> 2:34:47.880 French Canadians. There's a lot of that inside Quebec. Um, 2:34:47.920 --> 2:34:51.240 so he went to a Catholic school, uh, which were 2:34:51.320 --> 2:34:54.800 at the time very anti Jewish because what was happening 2:34:54.840 --> 2:34:56.600 is the Jewish people in Quebec wanted to make their 2:34:56.640 --> 2:34:59.800 own Jewish schools and the Catholics, like in charge, didn't 2:34:59.800 --> 2:35:01.959 want that because then that'd be less people were inside 2:35:01.959 --> 2:35:04.840 Catholic schools and they weren't you know, learning Catholicism. So 2:35:05.080 --> 2:35:06.720 there's a lot a lot of stuff going on here 2:35:06.760 --> 2:35:09.920 that is kind of extreme contributing. So he was you know, 2:35:09.959 --> 2:35:12.040 already anti immigrant because of the Chinese and then he 2:35:12.080 --> 2:35:15.200 got got exposed to anti Semitism inside its Catholic schools 2:35:15.280 --> 2:35:17.680 UM and that you know, pushed him onto this specific path. 2:35:17.840 --> 2:35:20.680 So in nineteen thirty our Khan made a deal with 2:35:20.720 --> 2:35:23.520 the head of the Conservative Party R. B. Bennett that 2:35:23.600 --> 2:35:25.879 in exchange for fifteen thousand dollars, which is like two 2:35:25.959 --> 2:35:28.680 hundred and fifty thou dollars in today's money, our our 2:35:28.760 --> 2:35:32.520 con would craft a smear campaign UM trying to assist 2:35:32.520 --> 2:35:36.080 the Conservatives in basically smearing the Liberals to gain more 2:35:36.080 --> 2:35:38.800 Conservative support inside the province of Quebec, which at the 2:35:38.800 --> 2:35:42.960 time was majority liberal leaning. So our Kan got to 2:35:42.959 --> 2:35:46.200 work and started prepping like pseudo fascist propaganda for the 2:35:46.200 --> 2:35:49.400 Conservatives UM and by the nineteen thirty federal election it 2:35:49.440 --> 2:35:52.879 absolutely worked UM Bennett and the Conservatives one they gained 2:35:52.920 --> 2:35:56.360 twenty four parliamentary seats in Quebec, which is a massive success. 2:35:56.400 --> 2:35:59.080 Like before they did not win any seats in Quebec, 2:35:59.080 --> 2:36:01.560 So gain twenty four seats in for over the course 2:36:01.560 --> 2:36:05.240 of just one election, massive win. UM. So after getting 2:36:05.240 --> 2:36:09.039 the after getting the Conservatives elected, the Conservative Party dropped 2:36:09.040 --> 2:36:12.119 our Khan because he was you know, a little hashtag problematic. 2:36:12.640 --> 2:36:16.360 Um uh huh. So after he got dropped by the 2:36:16.360 --> 2:36:19.760 Conservatives short shortly later, our Khan made contact with the 2:36:19.840 --> 2:36:23.600 growing National Socialist Party in Germany. Um. And over the 2:36:23.640 --> 2:36:25.840 next few years he just he started to gain more 2:36:25.879 --> 2:36:28.720 fascist contacts around the world. He would exchange letters people 2:36:28.760 --> 2:36:31.320 from people like Peteople, people from the German Nazis would 2:36:31.320 --> 2:36:33.520 come over and meet with what and come over to 2:36:33.520 --> 2:36:35.280 Canada and see what he was doing. He would travel 2:36:35.320 --> 2:36:38.920 around meeting other other Nazis around the world. UM. So 2:36:38.959 --> 2:36:40.959 it's kind of just like just gaining a lot, a 2:36:40.959 --> 2:36:43.800 lot more contacts. So then in nineteen thirty four he 2:36:43.840 --> 2:36:46.360 formed his own fascist party, which is the Canadian National 2:36:46.440 --> 2:36:49.800 Socialist Unity Party. And within that year, so in in 2:36:49.840 --> 2:36:52.840 the you know midnighteen thirties, it merged with other Canadian 2:36:52.920 --> 2:36:55.959 nationalist parties that were more based in the west, so 2:36:56.000 --> 2:36:59.160 you know, in the prairies like Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC. 2:36:59.720 --> 2:37:02.960 So emerged a few other kind of nationalist groups and 2:37:03.080 --> 2:37:05.800 started gaining traction, getting thousands and thousands of members. This 2:37:05.879 --> 2:37:08.080 actually became an actual thing. You can find footage of 2:37:08.080 --> 2:37:10.440 of his rallies and they're just terrifying, just like you know, 2:37:10.800 --> 2:37:12.480 just it's it's the same thing whenever you see like 2:37:12.840 --> 2:37:16.119 the Nazis, you know, rallying in Britain. You know, it's 2:37:16.400 --> 2:37:18.760 it feels different than watching a Nazi rally in Germany 2:37:18.760 --> 2:37:20.959 because you can feel a lot more, you know, if 2:37:21.000 --> 2:37:23.680 it's it's it's the same feeling. But but come home 2:37:24.320 --> 2:37:26.959 your own countrymen kind of do the same thing that 2:37:27.000 --> 2:37:33.199 you associate with the old footage of dead people is exactly. Yeah. 2:37:33.360 --> 2:37:36.400 So he was getting thousand numbers across Canada, um you know, 2:37:36.520 --> 2:37:39.800 mostly in the provinces of of Quebec and Alberta. So 2:37:40.280 --> 2:37:42.760 the two main provinces we're to talk about are going 2:37:42.800 --> 2:37:44.840 to be Quebeca and and Alberta because that's where a 2:37:44.879 --> 2:37:47.080 lot of a lot of the far right stuff gets 2:37:47.080 --> 2:37:50.800 started out. Um So in ninety eight, so that's like 2:37:50.840 --> 2:37:53.720 four years after he started this, Uh, the Canadian National 2:37:53.760 --> 2:37:57.359 Socialist Unity Party merged again, this time with various nationalist 2:37:57.360 --> 2:38:02.120 group groups and so called swastika clubs. Um in there 2:38:02.120 --> 2:38:04.440 we're already inside like Ontario and Quebec, so on the 2:38:04.440 --> 2:38:07.440 eastern side of Canada. So now he he united both 2:38:07.440 --> 2:38:10.840 the Quebec stuff Eastern Canada and Western Canada, and then 2:38:10.879 --> 2:38:13.640 he called that the National Unity Party um and Our 2:38:13.680 --> 2:38:20.680 Khan appointed himself the Canadian fural Gosh, yes so, and 2:38:20.800 --> 2:38:23.320 I'm going to quote from a time Time magazine piece 2:38:23.520 --> 2:38:29.080 from July of nineteen. Our con scheduled Canada's first national 2:38:29.120 --> 2:38:32.760 fascist convention for Kingston, Ontario. The mayor and city council 2:38:32.800 --> 2:38:35.119 did not want a fascist convention held in their city 2:38:35.280 --> 2:38:38.480 and called the police to prevent it. Defiantly, Leader Arkhan 2:38:38.640 --> 2:38:41.039 slipped forty five of his leaders into a room near 2:38:41.080 --> 2:38:45.600 police headquarters. It's this old tibe language held forth unmolested 2:38:45.720 --> 2:38:49.560 for five and a half hours. Upon emerging, Leader Arkan 2:38:49.920 --> 2:38:52.760 wired thanks to the mayor for his courtesy extended and 2:38:52.800 --> 2:38:55.800 announced the formation of the new National Unity Party. A 2:38:55.879 --> 2:38:59.879 flaming torch will be the new party's emblem, Canada for Canadians, 2:39:00.000 --> 2:39:03.000 its slogan, and the upraised arm of its salute for 2:39:03.160 --> 2:39:09.879 King Country and Christianity. Moving onto Ontario, Leader Arkhan, supported 2:39:09.920 --> 2:39:13.280 by eighty five of his Blue Shirts uh he claims 2:39:13.280 --> 2:39:15.800 there were eighty thousand members at the time, held a 2:39:15.840 --> 2:39:18.680 meeting in Mancy Hall that there was attended by about 2:39:18.760 --> 2:39:23.040 eight hundred sympathizers. More impressive, however, there were three anti 2:39:23.080 --> 2:39:27.920 fascist counter demonstrations held simultaneously. Two outdoor anti fascist meetings 2:39:28.120 --> 2:39:31.560 drew four hundred persons until broken up by police fearing 2:39:31.600 --> 2:39:34.720 a clash, but at Maple Leaf Gardens the Canadian League 2:39:34.760 --> 2:39:38.480 of Peace and Democracy attracted ten thousand so as was 2:39:38.520 --> 2:39:41.960 the first big fascist rally in Canada. There was like, 2:39:42.040 --> 2:39:44.400 you know, ten thousands of these more liberal people rallying 2:39:44.440 --> 2:39:47.920 elsewhere and four hundred like anti fascists ready to you know, 2:39:48.120 --> 2:39:51.080 beat up these Nazis, um, but then the police beat 2:39:51.120 --> 2:39:54.000 them up. Because history doesn't change. Times of flat circle, 2:39:54.040 --> 2:39:56.120 we're still doing the same thing. Now. Do you know 2:39:56.200 --> 2:40:00.520 who won't rally eight hundred Canadian Nazis called the Blue 2:40:00.520 --> 2:40:07.320 Shirts to sell you products? Tell us promise that yeah, 2:40:07.520 --> 2:40:14.520 depending depending what Hello Fresh has recently been sending there. 2:40:14.640 --> 2:40:17.560 Why do you always pick Hello Fresh? There are so 2:40:17.600 --> 2:40:22.920 many worse brands that we can't ignore the fact that 2:40:22.959 --> 2:40:26.199 they've been increasingly building their militant capacity for the last 2:40:26.200 --> 2:40:28.680 seven years. Anyway, here's some ads. You have too much 2:40:28.720 --> 2:40:33.080 to read, and we are back talking about the Canadian 2:40:33.120 --> 2:40:40.840 Blue Shirts. Um. The Hello fresh hello shirt. Please continue 2:40:40.879 --> 2:40:47.200 blue aprons, the blue Aprons. Thanks Chris, Thanks Chris for 2:40:47.280 --> 2:40:50.720 saving the bit all right, thank you. Um. So next 2:40:50.800 --> 2:40:53.959 year after his first rally, nine, World War two obviously 2:40:54.040 --> 2:40:56.520 started to ramp up and the Canadian government arrested our 2:40:56.600 --> 2:40:59.520 Cohn for plotting to overthrow the state UM and his 2:40:59.600 --> 2:41:02.600 national In the party was banned from federal elections. Arkhan 2:41:02.720 --> 2:41:05.480 was released from prison after the war, but he continued 2:41:05.520 --> 2:41:08.280 his political aspirations. UM. He ran for federal election twice 2:41:08.320 --> 2:41:10.800 in Quebec, once in nineteen forty nine and once in 2:41:10.879 --> 2:41:14.199 nineteen fifty three. Both times he uh, he ran under 2:41:14.280 --> 2:41:17.200 his National Unity Party banner, despite it being banned from elections. 2:41:17.200 --> 2:41:20.320 I don't know how he did that, um, both times. 2:41:20.600 --> 2:41:24.200 Laws are fake. Yeah, both times he placed second with 2:41:24.360 --> 2:41:27.240 over five and a half five and a half thousand votes, 2:41:27.520 --> 2:41:30.640 just about like thirty percent of of of the vote. Um. Actually, 2:41:30.640 --> 2:41:33.200 but the second time he ran as he ran just 2:41:33.320 --> 2:41:36.199 under a nationalist banner UM, and he got second as well. 2:41:36.440 --> 2:41:38.680 But he got like the vote, so he did a 2:41:38.720 --> 2:41:41.400 slight slightly better just running as a nationalist in Quebec, 2:41:41.560 --> 2:41:43.480 not like the National Unity thing, because that was you 2:41:43.520 --> 2:41:47.000 know more overtly Nazi, but he kept holding National Unity 2:41:47.000 --> 2:41:50.920 Party public rallies until the mid sixties. His last rally 2:41:50.920 --> 2:41:55.200 I think attracted like one thousand supporters, too many. I 2:41:55.240 --> 2:41:57.039 was hoping you were going to say like three and 2:41:57.040 --> 2:42:00.080 there was probably sad footage, but that's sad in a 2:42:00.120 --> 2:42:05.400 different way. Yeah. So he finally died in nineteen sixty seven, 2:42:06.400 --> 2:42:10.720 and with him also died the National Unity Party. I 2:42:10.840 --> 2:42:13.520 So I bring this one up because it's one fund 2:42:13.560 --> 2:42:17.039 up and interesting, um and too. It's like it's indicative 2:42:17.120 --> 2:42:20.440 of the weirdness that can come out of Quebec's nationalist 2:42:20.480 --> 2:42:23.840 political bent. Uh. We can see that now with a 2:42:23.879 --> 2:42:27.320 modern fact, you know, neo fascist Canadian political party that's 2:42:27.320 --> 2:42:30.640 based out of Quebec, which we will talk about shortly, um. 2:42:30.680 --> 2:42:33.720 But even like the nationalist tendencies within Quebec's more mainstream 2:42:33.760 --> 2:42:36.720 progressive population, Like I'm going to read some of the 2:42:36.760 --> 2:42:40.080 policy positions of the block keebu Qua party. That's that's 2:42:40.080 --> 2:42:44.000 that that's that's like the Quebec Sovereignty you know, party 2:42:44.080 --> 2:42:48.200 that is still actually very very popular in elections specifically 2:42:48.200 --> 2:42:50.480 in Quebec, and just ahead of this, if you're a 2:42:50.520 --> 2:42:54.200 French speaker, and you're frustrated by Garrison's pronunciations or my 2:42:54.280 --> 2:42:59.760 pronunciations of Quebecqua that your language isn't real and it's 2:43:01.000 --> 2:43:04.680 and you're deed from the French. Yeah, and you're responsible 2:43:04.720 --> 2:43:09.039 for this Nazi so unlike unlike English speakers who have 2:43:09.040 --> 2:43:15.160 been responsible for Spanish. That's my take, okay, anyway, saying 2:43:15.200 --> 2:43:19.240 Spanish here here, here is the progressive liberal block Kibuqua 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:23.960 policy positions UM Quebec sovereignty you know, up into independence. 2:43:23.959 --> 2:43:26.000 But usually it's just you know them pushing the interests 2:43:26.000 --> 2:43:30.440 of Quebec. UM environmentalism, abortion rights, you know, pro abortion 2:43:30.560 --> 2:43:33.800 rights UM, l g l g lgbt Q rights, UM, 2:43:34.360 --> 2:43:39.080 legalization of assisted suicide, UM, opposition to Canadian participation in 2:43:39.200 --> 2:43:44.880 the Iraq war, UM abolition, abolition of the abolition of 2:43:44.920 --> 2:43:50.440 the monarchy right UH forcing forcing immigrants to speak French 2:43:50.520 --> 2:43:56.720 in Quebec. Lost lost blocking immigration to Quebec. You've also 2:43:56.840 --> 2:44:00.640 lost me The Quebec Secularism law, which banned public workers 2:44:00.680 --> 2:44:03.680 in positions of authority from wearing religious symbols primarily targeted 2:44:03.720 --> 2:44:10.960 at Muslims, and seeks exemption Quebec's exemption from the requirements 2:44:11.000 --> 2:44:14.320 of the Multiculturalism Act. Yeah, I mean, I don't know 2:44:14.360 --> 2:44:17.160 the Multicultural Act, but I'm it's great. It's it's it's good. 2:44:17.480 --> 2:44:19.160 So yeah, so you can kind of see how like 2:44:19.520 --> 2:44:22.880 they have you know, all these like you know, pretty good, 2:44:23.240 --> 2:44:27.080 pretty good progressive SIGs and then and then they get 2:44:27.120 --> 2:44:30.200 really anti immigrant, right, so this is like, this is 2:44:30.280 --> 2:44:32.360 kind of hard to explain to Americans, how like you 2:44:32.400 --> 2:44:35.199 can be very like pro gay, pro you know, abolition 2:44:35.240 --> 2:44:37.040 of the monarchy, but then also be like, no, but 2:44:37.160 --> 2:44:43.400 we don't want those brown people in Quebec. Yeah. So yeah, anyway, 2:44:43.920 --> 2:44:46.120 we're gon we're gonna move on from Quebec specifically, but 2:44:46.200 --> 2:44:49.280 don't worry, we will be back because you're still a problem. 2:44:49.760 --> 2:44:51.760 But there there are there are other things too, are 2:44:51.840 --> 2:44:55.680 other things to discuss. So after our cons fascist Canadian movement, 2:44:55.879 --> 2:44:58.920 there was a stint of like Canadian skinheads in the seventies, 2:44:59.000 --> 2:45:00.920 you know, a on the same time as the UK 2:45:01.040 --> 2:45:03.640 and the US UM in the seventies, there was an 2:45:03.720 --> 2:45:07.000 unsuccessful Nazi party called the Nationalist Party of Canada that 2:45:07.160 --> 2:45:11.000 spawned a skinhead gang called Heritage Front. Um. Heritage Front 2:45:11.000 --> 2:45:14.040 disbanded around the mid two thousands because the Canadian FEDS 2:45:14.080 --> 2:45:16.560 infiltrated it and kind of you know, cut that down. 2:45:16.680 --> 2:45:19.840 So critical support to the Canadian Feds. But now we're 2:45:19.879 --> 2:45:22.840 gonna move on to unite the right, not not not 2:45:23.040 --> 2:45:25.640 the United Right that you're thinking of, the Canadian Unite 2:45:25.680 --> 2:45:28.800 the Right movement from the ninety nineties and early two thousands. 2:45:29.320 --> 2:45:33.040 That one probably wasn't problematic right there. It has no 2:45:33.240 --> 2:45:38.600 lasting problems. So because of Canada, because of Canada's multi 2:45:38.640 --> 2:45:42.360 multiparty system, there's more opportunity for ideologically similar parties to 2:45:42.480 --> 2:45:44.880 split the vote, you know, of people leaning in a 2:45:44.959 --> 2:45:48.160 certain direction. Um. Throughout most of the later half of 2:45:48.200 --> 2:45:51.400 the twentieth century, they were multiple conservative right wing parties 2:45:52.000 --> 2:45:54.160 that were operating at the same time, which did split 2:45:54.200 --> 2:45:56.200 the right of center vote. This is in part what 2:45:56.280 --> 2:45:58.800 allowed Canada to rise as like a liberal haven, because 2:45:58.840 --> 2:46:01.680 for a while the Conservatives just couldn't get elected because 2:46:01.680 --> 2:46:03.560 they were splitting the vote too many ways, leaving the 2:46:03.640 --> 2:46:06.880 main liberal party to win the vast majority of elections. UM. 2:46:07.160 --> 2:46:10.440 Obviously this frustrated right wing politicians and vote and voters 2:46:11.040 --> 2:46:13.080 than in the ninety nineties there were there were there 2:46:13.080 --> 2:46:15.240 were two main right wing parties, there was the older 2:46:15.560 --> 2:46:19.720 Progressive Conservative Party. They're like a classically fiscal conservative party 2:46:20.000 --> 2:46:23.960 with slightly less socially conservative beliefs, So you know, I 2:46:24.200 --> 2:46:27.119 would rather take them compared to the alternatives here. Um. 2:46:27.520 --> 2:46:30.080 The other major party was a right of center party 2:46:30.160 --> 2:46:32.320 called the Reform Party, which was much more of like 2:46:32.400 --> 2:46:36.280 a right wing populist and extremely socially conservative party, more 2:46:36.400 --> 2:46:39.400 similar to like the Trump era Republican Party. You know, 2:46:39.440 --> 2:46:41.800 they're they're they're they're much they're much more right wing populist, 2:46:42.200 --> 2:46:44.840 they're way more socially conservative, kind of what we traditionally 2:46:44.920 --> 2:46:47.280 think of as like, you know, like a racist Republican 2:46:47.360 --> 2:46:49.400 that this this this is their party called called the 2:46:49.440 --> 2:46:53.440 Reform Party. So after after loss after loss throughout the 2:46:53.520 --> 2:46:56.520 nineties and during the turn of the century, conservative efforts 2:46:56.520 --> 2:46:59.520 were being made between these two parties to unite into one. 2:47:00.000 --> 2:47:02.880 In nineteen there was a Unite the Right conference held 2:47:02.920 --> 2:47:06.440 in Toronto, Ontario, trying to bring together politicians and delegates 2:47:06.480 --> 2:47:09.320 from these two main conservative parties. But they also brought 2:47:09.400 --> 2:47:13.080 in some much more extreme Christian fascist parties, which there 2:47:13.160 --> 2:47:14.360 was like four of at the time. There was a 2:47:14.440 --> 2:47:17.600 lot of a lot of Christian fascist parties around this time. 2:47:18.040 --> 2:47:21.880 Um So, the conference garnered a negative news coverage in 2:47:22.000 --> 2:47:24.039 part to due to the inclusion of these far right 2:47:24.120 --> 2:47:27.440 Christian extremist parties. And then after the conference, polls were 2:47:27.480 --> 2:47:31.000 conducted that suggested that many of the Progressive Conservative supporters 2:47:31.120 --> 2:47:33.600 would rather vote liberal than vote for the new kind 2:47:33.640 --> 2:47:37.160 of merged more extreme right wing parties. So like a 2:47:37.240 --> 2:47:39.720 lot of these a lot of these fiscal conservatives are like, no, 2:47:39.959 --> 2:47:42.359 I'm not going to vote for all of this weird racism. 2:47:42.680 --> 2:47:44.560 I just don't want there to be higher taxes. So 2:47:44.680 --> 2:47:46.879 like I'm gonna I'm gonna rather vote for the liberals 2:47:47.120 --> 2:47:49.440 than vote for these fucking weirdos, which I mean, yeah, 2:47:49.480 --> 2:47:52.280 Like that's that. That's the conservative I would rather have. 2:47:53.720 --> 2:47:57.600 Um So, the conference didn't sit well with the with 2:47:57.680 --> 2:48:01.000 the Progressive Conservative Party. Um it's a politicians or or 2:48:01.160 --> 2:48:04.680 the political leaders. So the merger plans were cut off. 2:48:04.720 --> 2:48:06.320 They're like, no, we're not gonna do this. You guys 2:48:06.360 --> 2:48:09.360 are too weird and racist. We're not doing this. Um 2:48:09.800 --> 2:48:12.320 Then in two thousand to No, I think it's important 2:48:12.360 --> 2:48:14.920 that this was after nine eleven. I think this is 2:48:15.040 --> 2:48:17.840 really the reason why this happened. Um. One of the 2:48:17.920 --> 2:48:20.760 original Reform Party founders that the Reform Party is the 2:48:20.840 --> 2:48:23.680 more populist one. So one of the original founders named 2:48:23.720 --> 2:48:27.800 Stephen Harper, took control of the populist Conservative Party and 2:48:27.920 --> 2:48:30.640 worked to improve the optics of the more extreme sides 2:48:30.680 --> 2:48:33.080 of his party. I think it's very important this. This 2:48:33.200 --> 2:48:35.160 happened after nine eleven, and this is how the merger 2:48:35.200 --> 2:48:38.119 actually worked. So in two thousand three, merger talks sort 2:48:38.160 --> 2:48:40.280 of up again, and in August of that year the 2:48:40.320 --> 2:48:42.920 two parties announced the merger had been completed. There was 2:48:42.959 --> 2:48:46.480 a new United Conservative Party. Um. In the announcement, Harper 2:48:46.600 --> 2:48:49.800 is quoted as saying, our swords will henceforth be pointed 2:48:49.879 --> 2:48:52.920 at the Liberals, not to each other, and in December 2:48:53.000 --> 2:48:56.080 Harper was voted in as the new party leader. The 2:48:56.280 --> 2:48:58.480 work did pay off in the two US and six 2:48:58.560 --> 2:49:02.400 Canadian federal election. The Conservatives gained a controlling minority government 2:49:02.440 --> 2:49:05.920 among the electorate, with the former co founder of the extremist, 2:49:06.480 --> 2:49:09.800 you know, populist Reform Party, Stephen Harper, becoming the new 2:49:09.879 --> 2:49:12.840 Prime Minister of Canada. So this is how he got 2:49:12.920 --> 2:49:14.920 from Reform Party to being the you know, the prime 2:49:14.920 --> 2:49:17.800 Minister in through through the two thousand's um he was 2:49:17.879 --> 2:49:19.400 the Prime Minister of Canada for most of the time 2:49:19.400 --> 2:49:21.040 I lived there. That that that's who I think of 2:49:21.080 --> 2:49:22.680 when I think of the Prime Minister of Canada's I 2:49:22.760 --> 2:49:26.840 think of Stephen Harper. So Harper remained as Prime minister 2:49:27.040 --> 2:49:29.879 until the two thousand and fifteen election that saw noted 2:49:29.920 --> 2:49:33.920 black face appreciator Justin Trudeau elected under the Liberal Party. 2:49:34.560 --> 2:49:38.920 So that's good. What a good system we have that 2:49:39.240 --> 2:49:46.360 that that man like just your range of his black look. 2:49:46.520 --> 2:49:50.800 Say what you will about the man, very careful. You 2:49:50.920 --> 2:49:53.840 know you under no circumstances got to hand it to him. 2:49:55.560 --> 2:49:57.960 You do not, in fact, have to hand it to him. 2:49:58.680 --> 2:50:02.040 Well you have to hand him, uh the little the 2:50:02.200 --> 2:50:04.080 towel that he uses to get the black face off 2:50:04.120 --> 2:50:07.840 of his face. He can go into his work running Canada. 2:50:08.200 --> 2:50:13.840 Uh huh, yep, cool country. So didn't find out that 2:50:13.959 --> 2:50:16.400 like five of our governors all had black face photos. 2:50:18.120 --> 2:50:20.840 It was it was. It was a big year for 2:50:20.959 --> 2:50:24.760 black face. It really it's incredible because I can't picture 2:50:25.120 --> 2:50:28.200 Like again, I grew up very right wing and definitely 2:50:28.959 --> 2:50:31.600 had some said some uncomfortable things in my time. I 2:50:31.640 --> 2:50:33.120 don't think there was ever a point at which I 2:50:33.120 --> 2:50:35.240 would have been like, yeah, this seems like a good idea. 2:50:36.959 --> 2:50:43.840 It's what the fuck? Like, Yeah, what is the joke there? 2:50:43.959 --> 2:50:53.800 It's pretty it's pretty bad. Justin Trudeau liberal. Yeah, he 2:50:54.000 --> 2:50:58.039 is incredible. He is the one all of the wind 2:50:58.120 --> 2:51:06.920 Mom's thirst over. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Um, Beyond making it 2:51:07.000 --> 2:51:09.680 easier to vote in right of center candidates, what what 2:51:09.840 --> 2:51:12.760 the Canadian unit the right accomplished was pushing the conservative 2:51:12.800 --> 2:51:15.560 establishment much further to the right than what the previously 2:51:15.640 --> 2:51:19.800 popular Progressive Conservatives had established, while maintaining the respectability and 2:51:19.920 --> 2:51:24.080 civility the progressive Conservatives had cultivated. We are now going 2:51:24.120 --> 2:51:28.600 to skip ahead to two thousand seventeen. UM. In January seventeen, 2:51:29.000 --> 2:51:31.959 soon after the US President Donald Trump put into place 2:51:32.040 --> 2:51:35.680 the travel band from from you know, seven Muslim majority countries, 2:51:35.920 --> 2:51:39.080 Prime Minister Justin Trudeau delivered a message via Twitter to 2:51:39.200 --> 2:51:42.640 those fleeing persecution, terror, and war, Canadians will welcome you, 2:51:42.720 --> 2:51:46.360 regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength hashtag welcome 2:51:46.440 --> 2:51:50.640 to Canada. So Trudeau is like, if the US is 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:53.920 gonna be racist, we're gonna we're gonna let them in. 2:51:54.360 --> 2:51:56.960 Um for this, uh, for this next part I'm going 2:51:57.000 --> 2:52:00.280 to quote from the New York Times. Um Just hours 2:52:00.320 --> 2:52:03.760 after watching the television reports suggesting Canada would accept immigrants 2:52:04.480 --> 2:52:07.080 that were shunned by Trump, the twenty eight year old 2:52:07.200 --> 2:52:10.560 political science student packed his glock, handgun and rifle and 2:52:10.680 --> 2:52:13.000 trudged through the snow covered streets of Quebec to a 2:52:13.120 --> 2:52:17.359 nearby Islamic cultural center. As fifty three men were finishing 2:52:17.440 --> 2:52:20.880 evening prayers, he unloaded forty eight rounds. Six people were killed, 2:52:21.160 --> 2:52:23.760 several of them with shots to the head, and nineteen 2:52:23.800 --> 2:52:27.000 others were injured. One was paralyzed for life. In the 2:52:27.080 --> 2:52:30.560 month before his rampage, the shooter tralled the Internet eight 2:52:30.680 --> 2:52:34.039 hundred and nineteen times for posts related to Mr Trump, 2:52:34.320 --> 2:52:36.880 reading his Twitter feed daily, and homing in on the 2:52:36.959 --> 2:52:40.800 American president's travel ban on several Muslim majority countries. He 2:52:40.920 --> 2:52:42.800 kept a cash of guns underneath his bed at his 2:52:42.920 --> 2:52:45.760 parents house, and among his friends was just his twin brother. 2:52:46.200 --> 2:52:48.320 The shooter told investigators that he wished he had killed 2:52:48.400 --> 2:52:50.480 more people and he wanted to protect his family from 2:52:50.520 --> 2:52:54.360 Islamic terrorists. Experts on radicalization say that in Quebec, the 2:52:54.400 --> 2:52:57.120 French speaking province surrounded by an English speaking majority, The 2:52:57.160 --> 2:53:01.600 anti immigrant far right offers fertile for fertile, imperious ground 2:53:01.800 --> 2:53:05.000 for psychologically unstable youths seeking a sense of identity and 2:53:05.120 --> 2:53:08.600 a scapegoat the head of the Canadian based Center of 2:53:08.680 --> 2:53:12.000 Prevention of Radicalization leading to Violence that they said that 2:53:12.000 --> 2:53:13.920 the Quebec mosque shooter was in part of it was 2:53:14.000 --> 2:53:16.600 part of a growing number of educated, middle class white 2:53:16.640 --> 2:53:19.560 youths in Quebec drawn to far right ideas, fueled by 2:53:19.600 --> 2:53:21.800 the election of Mr Trump and fanned by fears of 2:53:21.840 --> 2:53:25.760 immigration that threatens Quebec's identity. When the Anti Radicalization Center 2:53:25.840 --> 2:53:27.960 was started in two thousand and fifteen, they dealt with 2:53:28.040 --> 2:53:30.720 sixteen cases of youths in the province that we're getting 2:53:30.760 --> 2:53:34.440 radicalized by the far right last year, which was like sixteen, uh, 2:53:34.600 --> 2:53:37.960 this center had one d and fifty four such cases. 2:53:39.640 --> 2:53:43.200 So this is this is kind of the the arc 2:53:43.320 --> 2:53:46.640 of things. Really, Trump's Trump's election did spire did did 2:53:46.720 --> 2:53:50.840 spur a lot of this growing like oh, these political 2:53:50.920 --> 2:53:53.880 beliefs are acceptable now, right, Like this is something that 2:53:54.040 --> 2:53:56.240 is like we are we are we are allowed to 2:53:56.360 --> 2:53:59.240 do this, and that that did echo in Canada and 2:53:59.240 --> 2:54:00.920 across a lot of the a lot of a lot 2:54:01.000 --> 2:54:03.200 of other countries. Um. What what one of one of 2:54:03.240 --> 2:54:06.720 the victims of the of the Quebec uh massacre his 2:54:07.080 --> 2:54:10.120 his father said that he come to Canada from Algeria 2:54:10.360 --> 2:54:14.560 in the to escape terrorism. Um. And he said that 2:54:14.720 --> 2:54:17.400 like Quebec did not create the monster the shooter, but 2:54:17.520 --> 2:54:21.840 the Islamophobia that is inherent inside Quebec gave him like 2:54:22.200 --> 2:54:25.600 the motive. So this is really does relate to connate 2:54:25.760 --> 2:54:28.360 to like the political situation of Canada. And it's very 2:54:28.879 --> 2:54:31.000 it's it's it's not a coincidence that the majority of 2:54:31.040 --> 2:54:35.039 these types of attacks are inside either Quebec, Toronto or um. 2:54:35.120 --> 2:54:37.000 You know, if you're if you're a white, if you're 2:54:37.520 --> 2:54:39.720 if you're in Alberta. It's said it's more tied to 2:54:39.760 --> 2:54:42.600 like other other like conservative values, but like a lot 2:54:42.680 --> 2:54:44.800 of it is around Quebec for a lot of these 2:54:44.879 --> 2:54:48.320 like shootings and always acts of terrorism. Um. There was 2:54:48.400 --> 2:54:51.600 like the there was the in cell guy who ran 2:54:51.640 --> 2:54:54.680 over tons of people in Toronto with his car. Um. 2:54:55.000 --> 2:54:56.880 Same same kind of thing of like of getting more 2:54:57.000 --> 2:54:59.080 more used to these kind of having these far right 2:54:59.120 --> 2:55:02.400 ideas be more loud um and then thinking them as 2:55:02.440 --> 2:55:06.560 more of like a normalized thing. So that so the 2:55:07.360 --> 2:55:11.920 Quebec mosque shooting, uh kind of well, couple a lot 2:55:11.959 --> 2:55:14.320 of people in Canada's being like, oh, we're not immune 2:55:14.360 --> 2:55:16.640 to this. This is like an actual thing that we 2:55:17.000 --> 2:55:20.760 have to deal with. Two. Um. And the next few 2:55:20.800 --> 2:55:25.240 months after Trade's January announcement, border crossings did see an 2:55:25.280 --> 2:55:29.440 increase in Canada formally accepted more immigrants and refugees and 2:55:29.640 --> 2:55:33.039 and not. And there was like the term in Canada 2:55:33.160 --> 2:55:36.600 is like an irregular spike of border crossings. Um. The 2:55:36.720 --> 2:55:39.960 fact the way Canadian media reported this, I think it's 2:55:40.040 --> 2:55:42.600 very irresponsible, the way they tried to like frame this 2:55:42.720 --> 2:55:45.439 as like after this announcement, We're getting so many irregular 2:55:45.480 --> 2:55:49.199 crossings that only fueled this type of like this type 2:55:49.200 --> 2:55:51.920 of anti immigrant sentiment. Um. It was. It was not 2:55:52.080 --> 2:55:54.040 really great. A lot of the old articles I pulled 2:55:54.080 --> 2:55:57.000 up for this for like, had really had really disgusting framing, 2:55:57.640 --> 2:56:02.080 especially you know, viewing it now. So in March, the 2:56:02.120 --> 2:56:06.240 Canadian Parliament passed a motion that condemns Islamophobia and request 2:56:06.280 --> 2:56:09.000 that the government recognized the need to quell the public 2:56:09.240 --> 2:56:13.400 of a climate of fear and hate, specifically around Muslims. 2:56:13.560 --> 2:56:17.040 And immigrants. Um. The motion was non binding, so it 2:56:17.080 --> 2:56:19.480 doesn't it doesn't mean anything. It's just the government saying 2:56:19.600 --> 2:56:23.560 something nice. Um. But it's still it's it's still sparked 2:56:23.680 --> 2:56:26.800 tons of outrage. Um. You know. It called on the 2:56:26.840 --> 2:56:30.320 government to condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism 2:56:30.400 --> 2:56:34.400 and discrimination. Uh. The the margin was passed by like 2:56:35.400 --> 2:56:37.360 it was passed by a margin of like two hundred 2:56:37.840 --> 2:56:42.200 two h two over ninety so people a lot of 2:56:42.280 --> 2:56:44.440 a lot of the Conservatives in Parliament didn't didn't like this, 2:56:44.840 --> 2:56:48.560 but it it's it's it garnered so much online backlash. 2:56:48.640 --> 2:56:51.440 There were there were petitions and nationwide protests condemning this 2:56:51.560 --> 2:56:55.240 bill as an attack on free speech. Um and Uh. 2:56:55.360 --> 2:56:58.920 The person who introduced the bill um uh in an 2:56:59.040 --> 2:57:04.840 MP named um Ikracalid, received death threats um on through 2:57:04.920 --> 2:57:06.959 like their email and like they had like their private 2:57:07.000 --> 2:57:10.879 private information leaked. And it turned in this very very 2:57:10.920 --> 2:57:13.280 big kind of one of the first things where it 2:57:13.320 --> 2:57:15.800 had like these like national protests in Canada that you know, 2:57:15.920 --> 2:57:17.480 similar to how we had like the free speech thing 2:57:17.480 --> 2:57:19.640 around to two and seventeen. This was like the Canadian 2:57:19.720 --> 2:57:21.920 version of that and how this kind of started Um. 2:57:22.640 --> 2:57:25.480 Then in December, Urdeau signed into the United Nations Global 2:57:26.040 --> 2:57:29.360 Migration Pact. There's another non binding incentive designed to provide 2:57:29.440 --> 2:57:32.480 understanding among nations, but how to deal with the global 2:57:32.480 --> 2:57:35.760 immigration crisis. Again, all these things are just people talking. Um. 2:57:35.920 --> 2:57:39.800 But it made people very, very mad, because if you're 2:57:39.800 --> 2:57:41.440 talking about it, that means it actually is real and 2:57:41.480 --> 2:57:43.680 it's actually gonna affect you, or it's just ignoring that 2:57:43.720 --> 2:57:48.520 these problems exist. So really, after Trump's election, after the Quebec, 2:57:48.600 --> 2:57:51.120 after after the Quebec Mosque shooting, then we have all 2:57:51.120 --> 2:57:55.400 these bills. This kind of ignited a in person rallying 2:57:55.640 --> 2:57:58.440 possibility and in person protests that Canada hadn't really seen 2:57:58.520 --> 2:58:03.480 before for this type of like anti immigration sentiments. Um. 2:58:04.000 --> 2:58:06.880 And we'll we'll talk more about these protests after after 2:58:07.040 --> 2:58:08.959 we have a little little bit of an ad break. 2:58:09.560 --> 2:58:13.480 You know, who doesn't get protested except for that one 2:58:13.560 --> 2:58:18.320 time when they illegally overthrew the government of Ecuador. Uh 2:58:18.680 --> 2:58:21.560 have to be more the the That's right, Garrison, our 2:58:21.600 --> 2:58:29.680 sponsors only one time did they inside cause mass protests 2:58:29.840 --> 2:58:35.080 as a result of overthrowing a sovereign government. That's pretty good, 2:58:36.920 --> 2:58:38.480 Pretty good, are you? Trying to do like a Banana 2:58:38.520 --> 2:58:40.520 Republic thing. What are you? What are you doing? I'm 2:58:40.600 --> 2:58:45.000 just saying most podcasts three to four governments overthrown by 2:58:45.040 --> 2:58:48.000 their sponsors. All Right, it could happen here, just the 2:58:48.040 --> 2:58:52.640 one baby, Hello, welcome to Why Canada isn't a liberal 2:58:52.720 --> 2:58:54.959 utopia and actually has a lot of the same systemic 2:58:55.040 --> 2:58:57.800 problems that every other Western country does and it's not 2:58:57.920 --> 2:59:05.760 immune to fascist infiltration and fact co option. So as so, 2:59:06.000 --> 2:59:07.440 I know, we we've we've talked a lot about Quebec 2:59:07.480 --> 2:59:11.120 and stuff, which is uh great because yeah, it is 2:59:11.160 --> 2:59:14.680 a problem. But this exists in the western provinces as well. Saskatchewan, Alberta, 2:59:14.720 --> 2:59:16.920 BC have a lot of these growing kind of things. 2:59:17.240 --> 2:59:19.160 But they're not French Canadians doing this. They're more like 2:59:19.280 --> 2:59:22.199 you know what we in America would you know recognize 2:59:22.200 --> 2:59:26.440 as like rural conservatives. Um. So around all of this, 2:59:26.560 --> 2:59:30.360 you know, increased discussion around immigration in two seventeen UM, 2:59:30.800 --> 2:59:33.320 around the same time people in Western Canada had We're 2:59:33.320 --> 2:59:35.640 facing a bit of an economic recession. They had you know, 2:59:35.920 --> 2:59:39.160 significant job loss around this time UM, and projects that 2:59:39.240 --> 2:59:41.760 traditionally brought work to the area, like pipelines were you know, 2:59:41.840 --> 2:59:44.160 there was discussion of them getting stalled and people you know, 2:59:44.360 --> 2:59:46.760 moving more towards renewable energy. This kind of increased a 2:59:46.800 --> 2:59:49.240 lot of the political tensions between the Eastern you know, 2:59:49.400 --> 2:59:54.200 liberal majority Canada and the western more rule Canada. Um 2:59:54.800 --> 2:59:57.880 quoting an article from the CBC, uh, Toureau just keeps 2:59:57.920 --> 3:00:02.240 giving away all of our money to immigrants. Samantha two boy, 3:00:02.320 --> 3:00:03.960 that is a that is a French name. I'm not 3:00:04.040 --> 3:00:10.400 even attempted that one. Samantha Frenchie anyway, this mother of five, 3:00:10.640 --> 3:00:14.440 she attained a January fifth rally with a webster, her husband, 3:00:14.560 --> 3:00:17.039 and two of their children. It was her first protest 3:00:17.160 --> 3:00:20.040 for any cause we're stuck paying for all this money 3:00:20.120 --> 3:00:22.440 that he wants to give away to everybody but Canadians. 3:00:22.760 --> 3:00:24.760 My kids are growing up, and my grandkids and all 3:00:24.800 --> 3:00:26.400 of their kids are going to be poor and stuck 3:00:26.440 --> 3:00:27.880 in a hole that they're never going to get out of. 3:00:29.320 --> 3:00:31.480 This is this is you know, very common type of thing, 3:00:31.640 --> 3:00:34.080 like oh, we're getting taxed and taking all of our 3:00:34.120 --> 3:00:36.400 money and giving giving away to immigrants. This happened after this, 3:00:36.520 --> 3:00:39.400 after the Syrian refugee crisis, when Canada is sort of 3:00:39.440 --> 3:00:42.120 accepting a lot of Syrian immigrants. That's that's around the 3:00:42.120 --> 3:00:46.320 time that I left Canada. Um. But I totally remember people, 3:00:46.400 --> 3:00:50.120 you know having very similar sentiments of like, why are 3:00:50.160 --> 3:00:53.160 we you know, paying for all of these refugees, you know, 3:00:53.240 --> 3:00:55.640 and and that that that's that's the thing that happens 3:00:55.640 --> 3:00:59.560 in the States too, yeah. Um. So the economic tensions 3:00:59.560 --> 3:01:02.760 developed in Western Canada, combined with the increase in anti 3:01:02.760 --> 3:01:05.880 immigration sentiments among conservatives, were in part spurred by the 3:01:05.879 --> 3:01:10.760 Trump presidency, led to the Canadian Yellow Vest movement. UM. 3:01:11.280 --> 3:01:14.240 This is totally separate from the French protest movement. UM. 3:01:14.320 --> 3:01:17.400 The Canadian version just stole like the working class branding 3:01:17.840 --> 3:01:21.120 and just used it for their proto fascist crusade. Um. 3:01:21.400 --> 3:01:25.400 So the Canadian yellow Vests were a a group of 3:01:26.000 --> 3:01:30.440 connected protest movements over the course of nineteen that had 3:01:30.480 --> 3:01:32.320 a lot of like impersonalities but also a lot of 3:01:32.400 --> 3:01:36.000 online mobilization. It's kind of since tid out, but it 3:01:36.200 --> 3:01:39.640 was a major force in pushing right wing extremism in 3:01:39.760 --> 3:01:44.600 Canada and having it be accessible to like regular people. 3:01:44.760 --> 3:01:47.040 Right It's it's not it's not like the Proud Boys 3:01:47.080 --> 3:01:48.720 at all, where it's like you know, specific you know, 3:01:48.920 --> 3:01:51.960 bad people doing this thing. It was like appealing to like, 3:01:52.040 --> 3:01:54.920 you know, the oil workers, appealing to like the moms. 3:01:55.040 --> 3:01:56.959 It was like it was, it was. It was primarily 3:01:57.040 --> 3:02:00.680 used Facebook as a means of sting off this type 3:02:00.680 --> 3:02:04.520 of information and making it seem you know, acceptable. UM 3:02:05.120 --> 3:02:09.000 the Canadian Loovest's quoting an article from vice UM Canadian yelvests, 3:02:09.000 --> 3:02:11.080 which had over a hundred thousand members on their Facebook 3:02:11.080 --> 3:02:16.080 as of May, carries the greatest potential for radicalization leading 3:02:16.120 --> 3:02:18.680 to violence in Canada right now, according to the executive 3:02:18.720 --> 3:02:21.480 director of the Canadian Anti Hate Network UH. The group's 3:02:21.480 --> 3:02:24.320 description says it says it was created to protest the 3:02:24.440 --> 3:02:28.040 carbon tax and build that pipeline and stand against the 3:02:28.120 --> 3:02:30.480 treason of our country's politicians who have the audacity to 3:02:30.560 --> 3:02:34.080 sell our country's sovereignty over to the globalist u N 3:02:34.200 --> 3:02:38.040 and their tyrannical policies. But concerns over Canadian soil sector 3:02:38.120 --> 3:02:41.120 appeared to be a very little factor in the discussion 3:02:41.160 --> 3:02:44.200 that goes on inside these groups. Instead, members are obsessing 3:02:44.280 --> 3:02:47.400 over with the defending you know, Western civilization from Islam, 3:02:47.840 --> 3:02:50.920 bashing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and spreading whatever you know, 3:02:51.000 --> 3:02:53.200 far right conspiracy theory is trending at the time, and 3:02:53.320 --> 3:02:56.200 I cannot overstate the amount that these people hate Trudeau. 3:02:56.520 --> 3:02:59.200 But it's it's not for like reasons because he wore 3:02:59.240 --> 3:03:02.560 black face. Like they find the most bizarre ways to 3:03:02.800 --> 3:03:05.640 hate this man. Um A lot of these people think 3:03:05.720 --> 3:03:08.760 that Justin Trudeau is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. 3:03:09.160 --> 3:03:15.920 This is this is this is a very a very 3:03:16.080 --> 3:03:20.480 popular conspiracy theory in Canada. It is like the way 3:03:20.600 --> 3:03:23.320 that Trudeau is treated by Conservatives is baffling because like, 3:03:23.440 --> 3:03:25.720 I hate Justin Trudeau, but I think I hate him 3:03:25.720 --> 3:03:28.120 for like reasonable reasons, Like he made a lot bunch 3:03:28.120 --> 3:03:30.480 of promises around you know, environment stuff that he didn't 3:03:30.480 --> 3:03:33.840 follow through on. He doesn't do he doesn't do anything 3:03:34.200 --> 3:03:37.760 he is. He does a lot of blackface. It's like 3:03:38.680 --> 3:03:41.120 there's a lot of reasons to hate Justin Trudeau, but 3:03:41.360 --> 3:03:44.199 not because he's the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro leading 3:03:44.400 --> 3:03:46.920 us to like leading trying to sneak Canada into what 3:03:47.000 --> 3:03:49.320 the socialist you end, Like, that's not that's not what 3:03:49.400 --> 3:03:51.960 he's doing, Like, yeah, he was the illegitimate son of 3:03:52.000 --> 3:03:55.000 Fidel Castro. There's a couple of those in the United States. 3:03:55.080 --> 3:03:57.320 One of his daughters is now like a right wing 3:03:57.520 --> 3:04:01.600 radio personality, and god, that makes so much sense. He 3:04:02.800 --> 3:04:04.760 you know, he's castro. He did a lot of fucking 3:04:04.920 --> 3:04:07.600 like who who would care? It's not your your fault, 3:04:07.640 --> 3:04:10.200 who your dad is. It's just like this is it's 3:04:10.320 --> 3:04:15.920 it's like it's like a weaker, like funnier version of birtherism. Yeah, 3:04:16.400 --> 3:04:19.400 it is. It makes it. It is like the Canadian 3:04:19.520 --> 3:04:23.720 version of that. Like it's very weird. He's like Justin 3:04:23.760 --> 3:04:25.960 Trudeau is very cringe e. He lies about all of 3:04:26.000 --> 3:04:29.120 his promises. Um, he talks about game, He does a 3:04:29.160 --> 3:04:30.960 lot of virtue signaling. He does a lot of black face. 3:04:31.040 --> 3:04:35.000 There's are all really good reasons to face. Um, yeah, 3:04:35.040 --> 3:04:38.240 a lot of black face. But the way the ways 3:04:38.280 --> 3:04:39.960 that they come up with trying to make him seem 3:04:40.000 --> 3:04:43.080 like a bad dude or just baffling, um, very very bizarre. 3:04:43.240 --> 3:04:46.720 So um. In an interview with somebody from the Yellow 3:04:46.800 --> 3:04:49.560 Vests exposed Anti Fascist Research Team, which was a very 3:04:49.560 --> 3:04:53.240 good Twitter account around it's it's it's inactive now, but 3:04:53.360 --> 3:04:55.119 this this was a very good account, a very good 3:04:55.120 --> 3:04:57.280 account that did really really solid research into the into 3:04:57.320 --> 3:04:59.920 the Yellows movement UM. In an interview, they were asked 3:05:00.080 --> 3:05:01.960 type of impact they think the yellowsts could have in 3:05:02.040 --> 3:05:06.080 Canada and this was This was their response. The image 3:05:06.080 --> 3:05:09.160 of the threat is no longer the skinhead, blood, blood, 3:05:09.160 --> 3:05:11.400 blood and honor type. We're dealing with average people who 3:05:11.440 --> 3:05:14.080 don't understand the impact of the rhetoric. They're calling for 3:05:14.160 --> 3:05:16.840 the mass death of an entire religion, or they're celebrating them, 3:05:16.959 --> 3:05:19.520 or they're celebrating the violence against that religion, or they're 3:05:19.520 --> 3:05:22.840 celebrating violence against government officials. They are just one step 3:05:22.920 --> 3:05:25.480 away from outright fascism, but they can't see that, and 3:05:25.520 --> 3:05:28.280 they refuse to see that, which I think it's very 3:05:28.400 --> 3:05:31.520 is a very good UM summary of like how the 3:05:31.760 --> 3:05:36.959 yellow vests were a popular movement specifically on Facebook. UM. 3:05:37.800 --> 3:05:40.320 Another part of it was the idea of like Western 3:05:40.400 --> 3:05:43.279 separatism UM, Like you know, the people in Western Canada 3:05:43.360 --> 3:05:45.720 feel ignored, They feel you know, put upon, they feel 3:05:45.720 --> 3:05:48.600 oppressed not just for feelings, not not just for being Westerners, 3:05:48.879 --> 3:05:52.760 but they honestly feel oppressed because they're white. They feel like, oh, 3:05:52.879 --> 3:05:55.160 we're focusing on you know, only going to give money 3:05:55.200 --> 3:05:57.520 to the brown people. That's the kind of thing that 3:05:57.600 --> 3:06:00.640 they feel like in the West. UM, they're like, well, 3:06:00.760 --> 3:06:02.600 you know, my right to free speech was taken away 3:06:02.640 --> 3:06:05.360 because of the because of the non binding bill, and 3:06:05.560 --> 3:06:07.720 refugees can just walk across the border and they make 3:06:07.800 --> 3:06:09.640 more money than I do. So they they have they 3:06:09.680 --> 3:06:11.480 have all these all these ideas that are not actually 3:06:11.480 --> 3:06:14.120 based in reality, but they can believe them. UM. And 3:06:14.280 --> 3:06:16.000 they you know, find these news sources that are just 3:06:16.080 --> 3:06:18.920 echo chambers that reinforce this belief to the point where 3:06:19.000 --> 3:06:23.520 they become radicalize themselves. UM. It's very it's a very 3:06:23.760 --> 3:06:26.879 very common thing, especially around twenties nineteen. I was tracking 3:06:26.879 --> 3:06:28.840 a lot of these Facebook groups around twenty nine as well, 3:06:29.120 --> 3:06:31.920 just in my spare time, UM, because it's just interesting 3:06:31.959 --> 3:06:36.120 to watch them interact. UM. I'm gonna give like, you know, 3:06:36.240 --> 3:06:39.880 like a brief recap of like a typical yell yellow 3:06:39.920 --> 3:06:43.520 best protest around like Edmonton, UM, based a bit off 3:06:43.520 --> 3:06:46.080 of of of of of a few CBC articles. So 3:06:46.200 --> 3:06:49.160 you know, protesters would gather around in front of UM 3:06:49.480 --> 3:06:55.039 like the Legislative building, holding signs, wearing bright yellow vests. UM. 3:06:55.280 --> 3:06:57.920 And they would do this like basically every every weekend 3:06:58.440 --> 3:07:01.120 for you know, months and months and months on end. Um. 3:07:01.280 --> 3:07:03.920 Some protesters when we stand at the podium showing conspiracy 3:07:03.959 --> 3:07:07.039 theories about how powerful the Jewish families controlling the world are. 3:07:07.520 --> 3:07:10.120 Um as one as one dude did at the Alberta 3:07:10.800 --> 3:07:16.400 legislature um on like January. Um. Some may come sporting 3:07:16.760 --> 3:07:21.600 red make Alberta great again. Hats uh this was very 3:07:21.879 --> 3:07:26.039 very popular, very popular. Um. Others may proud the sidelines, 3:07:26.040 --> 3:07:28.000 stress like they belong to a biker gang. Um. Instead 3:07:28.000 --> 3:07:30.480 of only instead of Hell's Angels patches, they have patricks 3:07:30.520 --> 3:07:35.800 that say Wolves of Odin and Canadian Infidels. Uh. I'm 3:07:35.840 --> 3:07:38.040 gonna give you one, guests, what type of ideology the 3:07:38.280 --> 3:07:44.920 Wolves of Odin have? Yeah? The the communists, Yeah, no, 3:07:45.040 --> 3:07:48.440 they're not easy. Um. But most of the protesters voices 3:07:48.480 --> 3:07:51.000 are not away from are not from the fringes. Most 3:07:51.040 --> 3:07:53.480 of them just have jobs, um you know, you know 3:07:53.600 --> 3:07:55.800 in like high rises, or they drive it for uber 3:07:56.000 --> 3:07:58.600 or their teachers or pipe fitters or real estate agents. 3:07:59.400 --> 3:08:01.960 And although their message is like muddled by all of 3:08:02.000 --> 3:08:04.480 these other like you know, much more overtly extremist kind 3:08:04.480 --> 3:08:06.760 of talking points, they all have one thing in common 3:08:06.800 --> 3:08:08.680 that they feel like they're getting ignored and being left 3:08:08.720 --> 3:08:11.960 behind by the liberals in the East. UM. This is 3:08:12.040 --> 3:08:14.160 echoed by one of the person that got interviewed at 3:08:14.160 --> 3:08:16.640 these rallies was named Lynn Smith, who was a former 3:08:17.200 --> 3:08:20.039 oil and gas worker who now works in the school system. UM. 3:08:20.480 --> 3:08:22.680 They were at a a yellow vest rally on in 3:08:22.800 --> 3:08:26.879 January nine that was like the first first fourth protest 3:08:27.000 --> 3:08:30.400 she attended. UM. She said, they're just giving away our country. 3:08:30.760 --> 3:08:33.000 We have no rights anymore, they're taking them away. No 3:08:33.160 --> 3:08:35.640 more Lord's prayer, but they're putting prayer, prayer rooms in 3:08:35.680 --> 3:08:39.240 schools for Muslims. Um, Mary, Christmas, you're you're You're not 3:08:39.280 --> 3:08:40.800 You're not allowed to say anymore. It's supposed to be 3:08:40.800 --> 3:08:43.480 happy holidays. They're changing, they're changing our country, and we've 3:08:43.480 --> 3:08:45.480 got to stand up and say something about it, because 3:08:45.840 --> 3:08:47.920 because this is our country. I was born here, my 3:08:48.000 --> 3:08:51.720 parents are born here. It's wrong. So, you know, I'm 3:08:51.760 --> 3:08:53.840 sure people in the States they're familiar with this type 3:08:53.840 --> 3:08:57.440 of rhetoric. Um, but just the the increased nature of 3:08:57.520 --> 3:09:00.520 in Canada was surprising to a lot of Nadians, and 3:09:00.600 --> 3:09:02.920 like president of a lot of like liberal Canadians, because 3:09:02.920 --> 3:09:05.400 they're like, but you're you're in Canada. Why are you 3:09:05.440 --> 3:09:07.160 doing the States thing? What? Why are you doing the 3:09:07.200 --> 3:09:08.480 thing that they do in the States. Why are you 3:09:08.560 --> 3:09:11.080 doing it here? Um? But you know the same reason 3:09:11.120 --> 3:09:12.600 you know people do in the States is because they 3:09:12.640 --> 3:09:15.080 feel ignored by politicians, you know, saying that's that's why 3:09:15.160 --> 3:09:19.280 this happens in Saskatchewan and Alberta m NBC way more 3:09:19.320 --> 3:09:21.600 than it happens in like Ontario, right is because you know, 3:09:21.720 --> 3:09:23.720 the more farther away you are from you know, the 3:09:23.800 --> 3:09:26.640 big cities, the less your interests are cared for by 3:09:26.640 --> 3:09:28.440 a lot of politicians. So the ones that speak to 3:09:28.480 --> 3:09:30.400 you are these like extremists who are trying to prey 3:09:30.480 --> 3:09:34.920 on these actual you know, financial insecurities. Um so. A 3:09:35.000 --> 3:09:36.840 lot some of the protesters say that they're not like 3:09:36.920 --> 3:09:39.720 a post immigration but but most of the focus of 3:09:39.760 --> 3:09:42.600 the Edmonton Yellow Best rallies has been has been about 3:09:42.640 --> 3:09:44.440 who can come into the country and how they're allowed 3:09:44.480 --> 3:09:48.039 to get here. Um uh. One one guy named Brett Webster, 3:09:48.280 --> 3:09:52.080 the father of five, who works like a construction construction industry, says, 3:09:52.320 --> 3:09:54.879 they're overwhelming our resources. We can't properly let these people 3:09:54.879 --> 3:09:56.120 and make sure it's safe for them to come in 3:09:56.400 --> 3:09:58.320 and make sure that they're skilled and assimilate into our 3:09:58.360 --> 3:10:01.880 country and know our ways and our values. So most 3:10:01.920 --> 3:10:04.520 of the extremest stuff in Canada outside of Quebec does 3:10:04.600 --> 3:10:07.440 come from does come specifically from Alberta. You know, the 3:10:07.480 --> 3:10:10.280 big big cities in Alberta are are Calgary and Edmonton. 3:10:10.680 --> 3:10:12.600 This happens also in a lot of the more rural 3:10:12.640 --> 3:10:14.760 areas that you know, mostly used to run on like 3:10:14.920 --> 3:10:19.120 oil drilling. Um. After losing an election to the more 3:10:19.240 --> 3:10:24.360 social democratic NDP party, UH, the two provincial Conservative parties 3:10:24.400 --> 3:10:27.280 in Alberta had their own little mini Unite the Right 3:10:27.400 --> 3:10:30.480 and merged together in to us in seventeen, leading to 3:10:30.520 --> 3:10:33.040 their success in the polls in nineteen. So then the 3:10:33.120 --> 3:10:35.480 Conservatives have since then, they've done a whole bunch of 3:10:35.520 --> 3:10:38.560 stuff in Alberta, like cutting down their health care to 3:10:38.640 --> 3:10:40.360 actually a lot of a lot of the Conservative voters 3:10:40.400 --> 3:10:42.600 don't like, but like they voted for because that was 3:10:42.640 --> 3:10:45.440 the platform. You just were being scared of brown people, 3:10:45.480 --> 3:10:47.360 so you voted for the Conservatives. But now but now 3:10:47.440 --> 3:10:51.480 your healthcare is cut. So that's that's how politics works. Um. 3:10:52.160 --> 3:10:53.680 So that that's kind of a brief summary of the 3:10:53.760 --> 3:10:55.920 Yellowist movement and how it how it gained a lot 3:10:55.959 --> 3:10:58.920 of popularity. Um. They they would do rallies around like 3:10:59.000 --> 3:11:00.959 polling centers, the would they would they would like they 3:11:01.000 --> 3:11:04.400 would attack people. They would have you know, violent rallies 3:11:04.440 --> 3:11:06.960 where a lot of like older older men who were 3:11:06.959 --> 3:11:09.600 in the Yellows movement would be you know, pretty violence 3:11:09.640 --> 3:11:13.000 towards you know and anyone in their area during a protest. UM. 3:11:14.120 --> 3:11:17.879 But they kind of kind of around COVID, the Yellow 3:11:17.920 --> 3:11:20.760 Vess kind of sput it out. A lot of the 3:11:20.800 --> 3:11:23.160 people in these Facebook groups got you know, moved into 3:11:23.320 --> 3:11:26.560 other conspiracy theory groups um, and the l S movement 3:11:26.640 --> 3:11:28.840 kind of lost its train. UM. So that's where we're 3:11:28.879 --> 3:11:31.000 kind of going to end for today, is with the 3:11:31.080 --> 3:11:34.080 kind of the Eloss kind of fizzling out. And then 3:11:34.080 --> 3:11:37.360 the next part we'll talk about what's happening from and 3:11:37.480 --> 3:11:39.960 the election that year took like kind of the present 3:11:40.400 --> 3:11:45.560 fascist rumblings um inside different sectors of Canadian politics. So yeah, 3:11:45.760 --> 3:11:48.520 that is that's my that's my very very brief right 3:11:48.640 --> 3:11:53.080 up of of right wing populism and extremism in Canada. 3:11:53.640 --> 3:12:00.560 Uh pre p yep. It's fun. It's not, it's it's 3:12:00.600 --> 3:12:04.000 it's it's it's upsetting. Um, and it's you know, it's 3:12:04.000 --> 3:12:05.560 a lot of the same problems we have here of 3:12:05.680 --> 3:12:08.960 you know, politicians really ignoring people in certain parts of 3:12:09.000 --> 3:12:12.960 the country which provide provide very fertile recruiting ground for 3:12:13.040 --> 3:12:15.480 a lot of extremists. I think it's going to all 3:12:15.640 --> 3:12:20.120 end well, well, that is our that is our that 3:12:20.280 --> 3:12:22.760 is our official policy, that everything is going to turn 3:12:22.800 --> 3:12:26.600 out great. Yeah, it seems fine. I mean there's like 3:12:26.680 --> 3:12:28.640 there is actual ways of preventing this from happening. Right, 3:12:28.640 --> 3:12:30.280 it's not it's not it's not a hopeless thing. We 3:12:30.440 --> 3:12:33.360 can actually do it if we want to. Just people 3:12:33.360 --> 3:12:37.080 with power to do it, don't don't don't like doing it. Yeah, 3:12:37.640 --> 3:12:41.040 well and good, that is the message of the pod Sophie. 3:12:41.360 --> 3:12:49.360 Cool and good. So yep, that's that's Canadian fascism part one. Cool. Um. 3:12:49.560 --> 3:12:51.400 I would recommend if people want to learn more about 3:12:51.440 --> 3:12:55.119 the Canadian uh yellow vests, check out the yellow Best 3:12:55.160 --> 3:12:58.640 Exposed Twitter account. Uh. There's also like there's also articles 3:12:58.640 --> 3:13:01.640 about them. They were a very very good anti fascist 3:13:02.040 --> 3:13:04.960 research team. Um. Yeah, I would just recommend if you 3:13:05.000 --> 3:13:07.080 want to learn more about this the specific movement, all 3:13:07.120 --> 3:13:10.320 of their work on it has been great. Um, so yeah, 3:13:10.560 --> 3:13:17.320 shout out, shout out to yellow vests exposed. That's the pod. Alright, 3:13:17.520 --> 3:13:21.080 Well go get your Tim Hortons and tomorrow, Yeah, I 3:13:21.120 --> 3:13:23.280 go get your Tim Horton's and you're I don't know, 3:13:23.400 --> 3:13:27.080 maple syrup and go find a moose, find and just 3:13:27.320 --> 3:13:31.080 follow us. Zone Media or happened here? Pot on, the 3:13:31.200 --> 3:13:38.240 twits and the inst against Bye bye everybody, a goodbye, 3:13:38.320 --> 3:13:52.280 a hello. Nope, that's not it. Nope, that's it. Garrison 3:13:52.640 --> 3:13:59.280 started the episode. Yes, has begun, It cannot be unbegun. 3:13:59.320 --> 3:14:02.080 A oh that's all right. Let's let's roll right into it. 3:14:02.160 --> 3:14:06.560 Let's talk so well, welcome. This says it could happen here. 3:14:06.720 --> 3:14:10.880 Um today the today, the here is is Canada, that 3:14:11.080 --> 3:14:13.440 is the that is where it could happen. Um. This 3:14:13.600 --> 3:14:15.200 is gonna be part two of my little deep dive 3:14:15.600 --> 3:14:18.480 into Canadian fascism and the far right rumblings in general 3:14:18.920 --> 3:14:21.200 in the Great White North. And oh god, that is 3:14:21.280 --> 3:14:24.960 a bad, bad nickname for Canada, the Great White North. 3:14:27.040 --> 3:14:31.880 Did not really think that went through, oopsie doodle of 3:14:33.360 --> 3:14:37.520 maybe the yeah, there's a good chance did anyway. Um, 3:14:37.680 --> 3:14:42.000 the last episode we left off with the Canadian yellow vests. Um, 3:14:42.120 --> 3:14:44.800 and you know of frightening increase in Islamophobia and anti 3:14:44.800 --> 3:14:51.200 immigration rhetoric around late after Trump selection. And we started 3:14:51.240 --> 3:14:54.520 the last episode by talking about one of Canada's first 3:14:54.640 --> 3:14:57.560 fascist political parties. And we're gonna start to part two 3:14:57.959 --> 3:15:01.480 but talking about Canada's new kne oh fascist political party 3:15:01.600 --> 3:15:04.960 that also got started inside the province of Quebec, just 3:15:05.120 --> 3:15:07.880 like the National Unity Party did. Uh. This one is 3:15:07.959 --> 3:15:12.680 called the People's Party of Canada. Um. Before we get 3:15:12.760 --> 3:15:15.160 into the People's Party, And first to give some background 3:15:15.280 --> 3:15:18.760 on the founder of the party, Maxine Bernier. Um. And 3:15:18.840 --> 3:15:21.280 that's how that's that's how I'm gonna say his name. Um, 3:15:21.560 --> 3:15:25.760 No one at me, It's good enough. Um. Bernair was 3:15:25.840 --> 3:15:28.080 born in Quebec in nineteen sixty three. On is the 3:15:28.200 --> 3:15:31.959 son of a Conservative talk radio host turned politician. Isn't 3:15:32.000 --> 3:15:38.680 that funny? Isn't that funny? How that keeps happening? Um? Yeah. 3:15:38.800 --> 3:15:43.080 So Bernair entered politics into US in six um. He 3:15:43.240 --> 3:15:45.280 ran as the Conservative Party candidate for the House of 3:15:45.480 --> 3:15:48.040 Commons in the same writing district that his father had 3:15:48.080 --> 3:15:51.960 represented in the eighties and nineties. Stephen Harper, leader of 3:15:52.000 --> 3:15:55.520 the New United Conservative Party initially wanted Maxine's father to 3:15:55.640 --> 3:15:59.040 re enter politics, but Bernair Senior was less keen on 3:15:59.120 --> 3:16:01.840 that idea, and in dead told Harper that he that 3:16:02.120 --> 3:16:06.040 perhaps his son should run in his place. Radio and nepotism, 3:16:06.400 --> 3:16:12.000 radio and nepotism, yep, and politicians and yeah it is 3:16:12.120 --> 3:16:15.039 it is starting great. Um. So at this point Bernair 3:16:15.160 --> 3:16:19.240 was more like a free market libertarian, libertarian type guy, 3:16:19.760 --> 3:16:21.800 you know, still with some of the same like conservative 3:16:22.320 --> 3:16:25.040 immigration stuff that's that's common in Quebec, but he was 3:16:25.120 --> 3:16:28.600 more of just like a libertarian dude. Berner easily won 3:16:28.879 --> 3:16:31.400 the writing writings for what we call districts here in 3:16:31.440 --> 3:16:35.040 the States, ranking at sixty seven percent of the popular vote, 3:16:35.080 --> 3:16:38.760 which was the largest majority for a Conservative politician outside 3:16:38.760 --> 3:16:41.120 of the province of Alberta. So he he did, he 3:16:41.240 --> 3:16:44.160 did very well. Bernaer, who had a background in business, 3:16:44.400 --> 3:16:47.280 quickly rose through the ranks of the Conservative Party. Within 3:16:47.360 --> 3:16:49.400 the same year, he was appointed to be a cabinet 3:16:49.440 --> 3:16:52.200 minister in the Harper government. Um and he worked as 3:16:52.280 --> 3:16:54.880 a as an industry minister from to us in six 3:16:55.000 --> 3:16:57.640 to US and seven before being promoted to a foreign 3:16:57.680 --> 3:17:00.480 affairs minister and then in two thousands eleven, he was 3:17:00.480 --> 3:17:03.320 appointed of he was appointed as Minister of the State. 3:17:04.879 --> 3:17:08.800 So in in spring of after the fifth after the 3:17:09.480 --> 3:17:12.840 federal election, uh Brennair put in his bid to be 3:17:12.959 --> 3:17:17.160 the new elected Conservative Party leader. Um, so I'm gonna 3:17:17.200 --> 3:17:20.680 briefly explain how Canadian elections work. You You don't vote 3:17:20.920 --> 3:17:23.880 for a prime minister. You vote for a party within 3:17:24.040 --> 3:17:28.039 your specific district if you if if your party wins, 3:17:28.400 --> 3:17:30.480 they get a seat in parliament. Whoever has the most 3:17:30.480 --> 3:17:33.960 seats in parliament, that's whose prime minister gets elected. So 3:17:34.480 --> 3:17:36.840 whoever is whoever is the leader of the party, they 3:17:36.879 --> 3:17:39.200 will be prime minister if that party gets in the 3:17:39.280 --> 3:17:42.880 most seats. So in two as in sixteen, Burnair put 3:17:42.920 --> 3:17:46.160 in his bid to be the new Conservative Party leader. Uh. 3:17:46.280 --> 3:17:49.680 He got remarkably close to securing the spot as leader 3:17:49.720 --> 3:17:52.520 of the Conservatives. In the final round of voting, he 3:17:52.680 --> 3:17:55.600 received forty nine point zero five percent of the vote, 3:17:56.520 --> 3:18:00.400 losing to Saskatchewan Conservative politician Andrew Sheer who got fifty 3:18:00.480 --> 3:18:04.920 point nine percent, less less than two percent difference. He 3:18:05.120 --> 3:18:08.000 was so close to becoming leader of the Conservative Party, 3:18:08.080 --> 3:18:13.000 like ridiculous. So yeah, after his extremely slight loss, he 3:18:13.120 --> 3:18:16.880 continued to work in Shear's Conservative Party for a few years. Um, 3:18:17.000 --> 3:18:19.480 if you remember from the last episode, around this time 3:18:19.879 --> 3:18:22.600 was when these homophobia and anti immigration talking points were 3:18:22.640 --> 3:18:26.039 starting to gain a new popularity, and Berner followed along 3:18:26.160 --> 3:18:28.840 with this trend. He would tweet out about the dangers 3:18:28.920 --> 3:18:33.959 of extreme multiculturalism and he had like an increasingly racist 3:18:34.000 --> 3:18:36.880 and divisive rhetoric, and that kind of caused some drama 3:18:36.959 --> 3:18:42.640 within the Conservative establishment. So in August of eighteen, around 3:18:42.680 --> 3:18:44.960 the same time the Yellow vest movement in Canada was 3:18:45.000 --> 3:18:49.200 starting up, Berner resigned from the Conservative Party with the 3:18:49.280 --> 3:18:53.119 stated intention of forming a new federal populist far right 3:18:53.200 --> 3:18:57.000 political party. Um here here, here's a segment from his 3:18:57.120 --> 3:18:59.560 resignation speech and he he does talk in a very 3:18:59.640 --> 3:19:08.480 thick Utch accent. I am not going to do that. Yeah, 3:19:08.560 --> 3:19:16.120 you're channel the energy. Um that was that was just 3:19:16.280 --> 3:19:22.640 direct audio instead of leading as a principal Conservative and 3:19:22.720 --> 3:19:25.880 defending the interests of Canada and Canadians. Andrew Sheer is 3:19:25.959 --> 3:19:29.400 following the Trudeau Liberals. I was told that internal polling 3:19:29.480 --> 3:19:32.120 is showing that the Liberals response to Trump is popular 3:19:32.400 --> 3:19:34.520 and that in six months, if the polls change, the 3:19:34.600 --> 3:19:37.720 party's stand may change to the same thing happened in 3:19:37.840 --> 3:19:41.320 reaction to my tweets on diversity and multiculturalism. This is 3:19:41.320 --> 3:19:44.160 another crucial debate for the future of our country. Do 3:19:44.240 --> 3:19:47.280 we want to emphasize or ethnic and religious differences or 3:19:47.320 --> 3:19:49.920 exploit them to buy votes as the liberals are doing, 3:19:50.400 --> 3:19:52.680 or emphasize what unites us and the values that can 3:19:52.760 --> 3:19:56.560 guarantee social cohesion. Just like other Western societies grappling with 3:19:56.600 --> 3:19:59.240 this issue. A large number of Canadians, and certainly the 3:19:59.320 --> 3:20:01.959 vast majority of Conservatives, are worried that we are heading 3:20:02.000 --> 3:20:05.080 in the wrong direction. But it's not correct to raise 3:20:05.240 --> 3:20:09.080 such questions. So yeah, and I think the honestly one 3:20:09.120 --> 3:20:13.720 of the main reasons why Brenair hasn't been super successful 3:20:14.320 --> 3:20:18.080 um is because of his accent. Like he is, it's 3:20:18.160 --> 3:20:24.320 harder for Protestant white Canadians to support him because he 3:20:24.480 --> 3:20:27.880 talks with a French Canadian accent. Um If if if 3:20:27.920 --> 3:20:31.520 he talked in like good English, I think he would 3:20:31.560 --> 3:20:34.520 have he would have won Conservative leadership um and his 3:20:34.640 --> 3:20:37.680 Populist party would be way more popular than than than 3:20:37.760 --> 3:20:42.959 it is now. So critical support to other French racism 3:20:43.080 --> 3:20:46.080 is preventing the racist from being racist enough. Yes, you 3:20:46.760 --> 3:20:52.040 love to see you certainly see it. We do, we 3:20:52.120 --> 3:20:55.840 do see it. So Bernair faced some pushback from his 3:20:55.920 --> 3:20:59.560 conservative colleagues, including Stephen Harper U of trying to divide 3:20:59.600 --> 3:21:02.560 the right and split the right of center vote. UM 3:21:03.440 --> 3:21:06.240 and some of the less socially conservative members of the 3:21:06.280 --> 3:21:10.600 main Conservative party decried Berner's departure and subsequent New People's 3:21:10.640 --> 3:21:13.160 Party as just a plain attempt to pander to xenophobia 3:21:13.440 --> 3:21:17.360 and racist right wingers. But Berner went right to work 3:21:17.680 --> 3:21:20.240 and ran enough candidates under his new party to secure 3:21:20.280 --> 3:21:23.400 a spot in the federal election debates that were like that, 3:21:23.640 --> 3:21:26.120 you know that how we watch presidential debates, same thing, 3:21:26.200 --> 3:21:27.920 but these have you know, multiple candidates because there are 3:21:28.000 --> 3:21:31.200 multiple parties, the same thing. But basically he was able 3:21:31.200 --> 3:21:34.560 to get in the televised debates. Um, the PPC, which 3:21:34.600 --> 3:21:36.160 is the People's Party of Canada. I'm just gonna say 3:21:36.160 --> 3:21:38.840 the PPC now because it sounds funny. Um. They started 3:21:38.840 --> 3:21:41.880 going viral on the internet after pictures of massive billboards 3:21:41.920 --> 3:21:45.200 with Berner's face and big text that said say no 3:21:45.640 --> 3:21:48.200 to mass immigration. This this this guy very is this 3:21:48.320 --> 3:21:53.320 guy very Mimi around like these big these big PPC 3:21:53.480 --> 3:21:56.320 billboards um I'm gonna I'm gonna read a bit from 3:21:56.360 --> 3:21:58.400 a write up and it's going down by some local 3:21:58.840 --> 3:22:03.080 um Montreal anti fascists. There have been suggestions that the 3:22:03.120 --> 3:22:07.119 PPC spokesperson and architect of its public relations strategy, Martin Mass, 3:22:07.360 --> 3:22:09.440 has been key to its embrace of the far right. 3:22:09.920 --> 3:22:12.880 Mass was owner of the publisher of the Capucua Libre, 3:22:13.280 --> 3:22:15.920 which is an online libertarian news outlet that shut down 3:22:15.920 --> 3:22:20.640 in ten and that pp but that PPC's cozy relationship 3:22:20.680 --> 3:22:22.720 with racist is primarily due to the influence of this 3:22:22.879 --> 3:22:26.880 one person is highly doubtful. However, that's the PPC is 3:22:26.920 --> 3:22:29.400 positioning itself as the option of choice for those who 3:22:29.480 --> 3:22:33.440 find the Conservative Party insufficiently right wing. Racism is clearly 3:22:33.520 --> 3:22:36.000 just one of the most effective tools for such a strategy. 3:22:36.280 --> 3:22:40.400 Witnessing PPC billboards and tweets against mass immigration, also tweets 3:22:40.440 --> 3:22:44.520 about being against Antifa and Bernara's Diet tribe, about radical 3:22:44.600 --> 3:22:46.880 Islam being the biggest threat to freedom and peace and 3:22:46.959 --> 3:22:50.119 security the world today, and how he complains about other 3:22:50.200 --> 3:22:54.400 parties are are complacent and pandering to Islamists and promising 3:22:54.440 --> 3:22:57.480 that the PPC will make no compromise with the tolitarian ideology. 3:22:58.240 --> 3:23:00.360 A number of media articles have revealed all the far 3:23:00.480 --> 3:23:03.880 right connections to people active in the PPC as organizers 3:23:04.240 --> 3:23:06.960 and members whose signatures were used for the PPC to 3:23:07.040 --> 3:23:10.640 gain official party status. UM. For instance, a Derek Horn, 3:23:11.000 --> 3:23:14.360 the PPC volunteer and a security agent who accompanied Bernair 3:23:14.680 --> 3:23:17.520 at a variety of offense and media interviews. He has 3:23:17.560 --> 3:23:19.640 been revealed to be a founding member of the neo 3:23:19.760 --> 3:23:22.920 fascist Canadian Nationalist Party, which we we briefly mentioned in 3:23:22.959 --> 3:23:27.200 the last episode. UM. Sean Walker is an American immigrant 3:23:27.240 --> 3:23:30.480 and organizer with the PPC in St. Catharine's UM, as 3:23:30.520 --> 3:23:31.880 well as one of the people who signed on for 3:23:31.920 --> 3:23:34.000 PPC to be an official party. He was revealed to 3:23:34.040 --> 3:23:36.640 be the president of the National Alliance US, based in 3:23:36.680 --> 3:23:42.160 the Nazi organization seven. He was also convicted. He was 3:23:42.160 --> 3:23:44.240 also convicted of hate crimes at the time for violence 3:23:44.240 --> 3:23:47.200 Stands People of Color UM. Following these revelations, Walker was 3:23:47.240 --> 3:23:50.560 expelled from the PPC and Bernard claimed that he'd slipped 3:23:50.560 --> 3:23:53.080 through the party's betting process. However, was also revealed that 3:23:53.240 --> 3:23:57.760 Bernar follows him on Twitter. UM. Others who signed up 3:23:57.800 --> 3:23:59.560 for the for the PPC to be an official party 3:23:59.600 --> 3:24:03.480 include Janice Bulch, a founding member of the Patriotic Europeans 3:24:03.800 --> 3:24:09.080 against the Islamification of Accent, and also Justin L. Smith, 3:24:09.240 --> 3:24:12.000 leader of this of the Sudbury chapter of the Soldiers 3:24:12.040 --> 3:24:14.880 of Odin. So a whole bunch of whole bunch of 3:24:14.920 --> 3:24:17.760 fascist people are working work working for the party. Um 3:24:18.080 --> 3:24:20.720 And unsurprisingly a number of a number of candidates have 3:24:20.840 --> 3:24:23.040 made headlines. But there as there you know, social media 3:24:23.120 --> 3:24:27.679 posts from the past and present have surfaced featuring like racism, Islamophobia, 3:24:28.120 --> 3:24:30.880 and a lot of spreading of far right conspiracy theories. 3:24:31.000 --> 3:24:32.959 You know that was just kind of common. There's too many, 3:24:33.040 --> 3:24:36.480 honestly to mention. UM. And it's it's not just that 3:24:36.560 --> 3:24:38.400 the PPC has a few bad apples in it. It's 3:24:38.440 --> 3:24:40.400 like the whole the whole party is rife with these 3:24:40.480 --> 3:24:43.400 kind of one of these kind of sentiments. UM. One 3:24:43.520 --> 3:24:45.680 gauge of this and the sign and a sign that 3:24:45.800 --> 3:24:48.400 like this is intentional is the as looking at the 3:24:48.440 --> 3:24:50.800 candidates who have left the party or have been kicked out. 3:24:51.120 --> 3:24:53.720 When it became clear that there would be no condemnation 3:24:53.800 --> 3:24:56.760 of the far right from the upper ranks, there was 3:24:56.879 --> 3:25:00.520 like and justin like twenty ninet alone, there was like 3:25:00.640 --> 3:25:03.760 three candidates who were who left or were either kicked 3:25:03.760 --> 3:25:07.480 out um because they you know, had objections to the 3:25:07.600 --> 3:25:10.720 racism rampant within the party. They were like complaining about, hey, 3:25:10.800 --> 3:25:12.320 these guys seem kind of racist, and then they were 3:25:12.360 --> 3:25:14.840 kicked out of the party or or or or they left. 3:25:15.520 --> 3:25:20.440 So yeah, that's that's a not a good problem to have. Um, 3:25:21.640 --> 3:25:25.560 so in in uh finishing up this this little quote here. Um. Indeed, 3:25:25.640 --> 3:25:29.040 a cursory, ac cursory look at the Facebook pages of 3:25:29.120 --> 3:25:32.680 PPC candidates reveals what's been really noteworthy is how selective 3:25:32.760 --> 3:25:36.000 the news stories about racist tweets or Facebook posts have been. 3:25:36.200 --> 3:25:39.560 Almost every PPC candidate in Quebec has recently in repeatedly 3:25:39.640 --> 3:25:42.920 shared articles from climate denialist sources, including many with a 3:25:42.959 --> 3:25:47.480 conspiratorial bent. A candidate for Pap and You even produced 3:25:47.560 --> 3:25:50.360 his own YouTube expose revealing how George sorrows it's behind 3:25:50.400 --> 3:25:53.560 an international and global conspiracy theory to crash economies and 3:25:53.600 --> 3:25:57.400 make money spending um panic about climate change. Secondary to 3:25:57.440 --> 3:25:59.959 climate denial, there's a lot of fears around free speed 3:26:00.040 --> 3:26:03.040 chin mass immigration, which are both recurring themes in the 3:26:03.120 --> 3:26:06.880 PPC candidates, and roughly one in five have recently shared 3:26:07.080 --> 3:26:10.440 news articles from what we would deem a national populist 3:26:10.560 --> 3:26:13.640 or fall right sources, including less manchetz dot com, which 3:26:13.680 --> 3:26:16.160 is the website of the French language of the French 3:26:16.280 --> 3:26:21.280 language translator of the christ Church Um Manifesto um, and 3:26:21.520 --> 3:26:23.280 that that the guy who ends the website is also 3:26:23.360 --> 3:26:26.840 involved with organizing in the Montreal in the Montreal chapter 3:26:26.959 --> 3:26:30.879 of the Yellow Bests. Um. Yeah, so he he both 3:26:30.920 --> 3:26:35.440 translated the manifesto and he's also running the Montreal Yellowest movement. 3:26:35.520 --> 3:26:38.200 So that's fun. Um, it's not fun, it's bad, um, 3:26:38.600 --> 3:26:44.240 Andre Pietrie pipe poo wow. And it's so Remember so 3:26:44.840 --> 3:26:47.120 I didn't learn French in Canada because I was in 3:26:47.200 --> 3:26:49.920 a weird Christian private school. Otherwise I could be a 3:26:49.959 --> 3:26:55.240 lot better at this job. But anyway, there's there's a 3:26:55.360 --> 3:26:57.320 there's a there's a there's just like a far right 3:26:57.360 --> 3:27:02.520 YouTube channel. But this guy called a studio who a 3:27:02.600 --> 3:27:04.560 lot of his stuff was shared. Um. And there's a 3:27:04.600 --> 3:27:07.480 more like eccentric and sporadic mix of of of other 3:27:07.560 --> 3:27:11.039 news sources, including Unite the Right attendee Faith Goldie who 3:27:11.080 --> 3:27:13.240 also ran for mayor of Toronto and got third place. 3:27:13.840 --> 3:27:17.720 UM Quebec based que and on figure Alexus trudell Um 3:27:17.879 --> 3:27:20.760 and the al right YouTuber black Pigeon Speaks. Of course, 3:27:20.840 --> 3:27:23.800 the main yellow Vest page was shared a lot, and 3:27:23.920 --> 3:27:27.320 also sources from the highly racist The Voice of Europe. 3:27:27.440 --> 3:27:30.920 So yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot 3:27:31.040 --> 3:27:34.959 of not not great news sources being being shared by 3:27:35.000 --> 3:27:38.640 the PBC. UM. So that is the gist of the 3:27:38.680 --> 3:27:43.480 People's Party as of twenty nine UM. Overall, their performance 3:27:43.520 --> 3:27:47.760 in the election was kind of a flop. Bernair lost 3:27:47.840 --> 3:27:50.680 his own seat in Quebec. No PC candidates got into 3:27:50.760 --> 3:27:53.720 office and the party only managed to get one. Uh. 3:27:53.920 --> 3:27:56.040 The party only managed to get one point six percent 3:27:56.160 --> 3:28:01.920 of the total national popular vote, so that's good. It 3:28:02.040 --> 3:28:05.840 only got one point six percent of all of the 3:28:05.920 --> 3:28:08.800 votes in Canada. So we're gonna take a break from 3:28:08.840 --> 3:28:11.760 the People's Party for now and we will circle back 3:28:11.800 --> 3:28:15.840 towards it um at the end. But after after an 3:28:15.840 --> 3:28:18.000 ad break, we will we will talk about the what 3:28:18.080 --> 3:28:20.280 the main Conservative Party was up to during this time 3:28:20.720 --> 3:28:26.160 and uh a little bit after the election, so yeah, yep, 3:28:26.320 --> 3:28:28.360 and now the cats just blocking the whole thing. All right, 3:28:29.840 --> 3:28:32.480 we're back. The cat is in the bathroom. I moved 3:28:32.560 --> 3:28:36.600 my cats. They were blocking the camera. Hello. Um, people's 3:28:36.640 --> 3:28:38.920 party not doing great in the first election. That's fun. 3:28:39.400 --> 3:28:41.560 Let's see what the regular conservatives are up to. I'm 3:28:41.600 --> 3:28:43.720 sure it was things that are just good and cool. 3:28:44.600 --> 3:28:49.280 If I know anything about conservatives, it's that they're not 3:28:51.120 --> 3:28:55.520 not hashtag problematic. Yeah, you just let's just go okay, 3:28:56.480 --> 3:28:58.680 So I'll just be sad over here, and the audience 3:28:58.720 --> 3:29:00.720 can know that I'm sad the whole time you're talking. 3:29:01.040 --> 3:29:03.520 I would rather as episode not such a not such 3:29:03.560 --> 3:29:05.320 a downer, but it's it's hard to make it. The 3:29:05.440 --> 3:29:08.080 is kind of an upper I'll make a bargain with 3:29:08.200 --> 3:29:10.520 the audience that if they listen, I will I will 3:29:10.560 --> 3:29:13.400 do my French accent at least one more time. We'll 3:29:13.440 --> 3:29:15.840 see doing the French accent. This is the happiest I 3:29:15.920 --> 3:29:20.560 have seen Robert all day. Well, he does look very tired. 3:29:21.040 --> 3:29:23.960 You didn't say earlier, Garrison, and this was very funny 3:29:24.080 --> 3:29:25.840 that you'd be better at your job if you could 3:29:25.840 --> 3:29:30.080 speak French. But given what we are here, it cools 3:29:30.120 --> 3:29:34.960 ow mediate you would actually be much worse at your job. Um, 3:29:35.360 --> 3:29:38.480 and in fact, if you if you were to speak French, 3:29:38.680 --> 3:29:41.600 I would I would fire you immediate. It's actually requirement. 3:29:42.040 --> 3:29:47.480 You can't pronounce things to certainly not French. There's other 3:29:47.560 --> 3:29:50.320 languages you're allowed to know how to pronounce, but not French. 3:29:50.600 --> 3:29:59.600 No oblo francaie. So let's pick up right after Maxine 3:29:59.640 --> 3:30:05.000 Bernard lost the Conservative leadership to Andrew Sheer in um. 3:30:05.360 --> 3:30:08.520 Sheer won the leadership on a on on like a 3:30:08.600 --> 3:30:12.879 platform of classical financial conservatism and a slightly more socially 3:30:12.959 --> 3:30:16.640 moderate platform um. When Sheer got into office, though, one 3:30:16.640 --> 3:30:18.680 of the things he faced criticism for, even among the 3:30:18.720 --> 3:30:22.840 Conservative caucus was his association with a little media with 3:30:23.080 --> 3:30:26.800 was his association with a little media outlet called rebel Media. 3:30:28.480 --> 3:30:33.800 Yeah so most most listeners may not know what rebel 3:30:33.840 --> 3:30:36.760 media is, but you've certainly seen their stuff or felt 3:30:36.800 --> 3:30:39.879 their effect. Yeah, it's like the rough draft of bright 3:30:40.000 --> 3:30:45.240 bart and also Canadian and Canadian, Yes so Canadian. Uh so, 3:30:45.959 --> 3:30:48.920 Rebel Media is a Canadian far right neo fascist propaganda 3:30:48.920 --> 3:30:52.280 Outlet's start that has a lot of a lot of 3:30:52.480 --> 3:30:59.360 bright Barti vibes um rebel media. Yeah, bright Bartesque, rebel media, 3:30:59.440 --> 3:31:02.520 host thinking tribute years have included a white nationalist and 3:31:02.600 --> 3:31:06.080 white genocide proponent, Laurence Southern UM and Proud Boy founder 3:31:06.120 --> 3:31:11.360 Gavin McGinness um. McGinnis produced a quote satirical video for 3:31:11.480 --> 3:31:19.120 Rebel called ten Things I Hate about the Jews. Yeah so, 3:31:19.560 --> 3:31:22.080 and it's and it is worth noting that both Southern 3:31:22.240 --> 3:31:26.200 and McGinnis are Canadian. Um, They're actually a lot of 3:31:26.760 --> 3:31:29.200 alt figures that are Canadian. Of course we have we 3:31:29.240 --> 3:31:32.760 have Lauren Southern, Gavin McGinnis, Um, we have Stephen Crowder, 3:31:33.200 --> 3:31:36.160 uh Stefan malin you and of course Jordan Peterson. All 3:31:36.240 --> 3:31:38.520 of those people are are Canadian and most of them, 3:31:40.160 --> 3:31:44.200 most of them still live in Canada. Yes, he's still alive. 3:31:44.600 --> 3:31:49.320 Made he made insane tweet the other day. God, he 3:31:49.440 --> 3:31:54.000 made the most tweet. That tweet made it all worthwhile. Baby, 3:31:54.680 --> 3:31:57.040 he got everyone to go check his Twitter feed. It 3:31:57.160 --> 3:32:00.600 is amazing. You can you can hear his brain shorting 3:32:00.640 --> 3:32:05.720 out when you read that tweet, Like you need to 3:32:05.760 --> 3:32:07.960 find the tweet it is. It is just it is 3:32:08.080 --> 3:32:10.920 the most beautiful piece of poetry of ever. It's like 3:32:11.080 --> 3:32:17.480 somebody taught a stroke out of type. It makes no sense. God, 3:32:17.520 --> 3:32:21.480 it's so good. Um, I'm going to quote an article 3:32:21.640 --> 3:32:24.720 by a Global news dot c a on Andrew Sheer 3:32:24.800 --> 3:32:28.080 and Rebel media. Quote. Despite a string of controversies faced 3:32:28.120 --> 3:32:30.879 by Canadian right wing media outlet of The Rebel, including 3:32:30.920 --> 3:32:34.920 allegations of downplaying the Holocaust movie minted, Conservative Party leader 3:32:34.959 --> 3:32:37.520 Andrew Sheer has so far continued to make himself available 3:32:37.560 --> 3:32:41.279 to the company that other prominent Conservative politicians have criticized 3:32:41.320 --> 3:32:45.840 for its controversial reporting and activism. Shear's campaign organization also 3:32:45.879 --> 3:32:48.640 has a direct connection to The Rebel. His campaign manager, 3:32:48.760 --> 3:32:51.440 Hamish Marshall, is listed as a director of the company's 3:32:51.560 --> 3:32:55.119 federal incorporation records, which show its most recent annual gathering 3:32:55.160 --> 3:32:58.360 meeting was in February this year. Following the leadership election 3:32:58.400 --> 3:33:01.359 in Toronto on Saturday, she granted one on one interviews 3:33:01.360 --> 3:33:03.880 with a handful of major media organizations, including a face 3:33:03.920 --> 3:33:07.199 to face interview with The Rebels Ottawa correspondent Brian Lily. 3:33:08.120 --> 3:33:11.039 Prior to his convention interview, Sheer appeared on The Rebel 3:33:11.080 --> 3:33:13.920 in February in a studio interview with host Faith Goldie 3:33:14.000 --> 3:33:17.080 on her show on the Hunt. At the end of 3:33:17.120 --> 3:33:19.920 the discussion, Goldie asked she Er if if he would 3:33:19.920 --> 3:33:21.520 agree to go on a duck hunting trip with her 3:33:21.680 --> 3:33:25.320 after after he wins the leadership on Canada Day, which 3:33:25.400 --> 3:33:29.360 he agreed to. UM We briefly mentioned faith Goldie earlier 3:33:29.440 --> 3:33:31.760 in her connection to the People's Party UM and her 3:33:31.840 --> 3:33:35.640 brief campaign for the Toronto mayor, but here's some more 3:33:35.720 --> 3:33:38.920 background on her UM and her coverage and her coverage 3:33:38.959 --> 3:33:42.080 of the Unite the Right rally for Rebel media. Quoting 3:33:42.160 --> 3:33:46.160 from Winnipeg Free Press, in the course of her dispatches, 3:33:46.440 --> 3:33:49.280 Goldie argued the events in the Charlottesville were evidence of 3:33:49.320 --> 3:33:52.680 a rising white racial consciousness that was going to change 3:33:52.720 --> 3:33:55.840 the political landscape in America. She also wanted to she's 3:33:55.840 --> 3:33:59.320 actually not wrong there. That was, Yeah, she's not wrong, 3:33:59.760 --> 3:34:02.440 but I think she's she's on the other side of 3:34:02.520 --> 3:34:04.200 the ai alat and whether this is a good or 3:34:04.320 --> 3:34:08.240 bad thing. Yeah. She went to great lengths to laud 3:34:08.360 --> 3:34:12.400 the twenty point Meta political Manifesto composed by White National's 3:34:12.480 --> 3:34:15.720 leader Richard Spencer, a document that includes calls to organize 3:34:15.959 --> 3:34:19.840 U states along ethnic and racial divides and celebrates the 3:34:19.840 --> 3:34:24.200 superiority of white America. Faith Goldie described Spencer's manifesto as 3:34:24.360 --> 3:34:28.920 robust and well thought out. Goldie was fired by Rebel 3:34:29.040 --> 3:34:32.360 in mid August and seventeen, but not due to her 3:34:32.400 --> 3:34:35.640 participation in Unite the Right. She was fired for appearing 3:34:35.760 --> 3:34:39.039 on a Daily Stormer podcast to discuss Unite the Right. 3:34:40.560 --> 3:34:44.440 So yeah, yeah, that's that's fine. So yeah, fine, nice 3:34:44.480 --> 3:34:49.360 to have her. Interviewing Conservative leader Andrew Sheer asked for 3:34:49.480 --> 3:34:52.320 his reaction to Unite the Right and Rebel media um 3:34:52.560 --> 3:34:57.160 after what happened in Charlotte'sville in Sheer, who had previously 3:34:57.240 --> 3:35:00.200 been interviewed by Rebel multiple times, finally di of ad 3:35:00.280 --> 3:35:02.680 the outlets, saying, look, I believe there's a fine line 3:35:02.720 --> 3:35:05.320 between covering events and giving a platform to groups who 3:35:05.320 --> 3:35:08.080 are promoting a violent, disgusting point of view. I won't 3:35:08.120 --> 3:35:11.960 be granting interviews going forward. So that's nice that it 3:35:12.040 --> 3:35:14.280 took someone dying in Charlotte's Bill to realize that you 3:35:14.320 --> 3:35:18.520 probably shouldn't talk to the fascist media source. Um. So, 3:35:18.920 --> 3:35:22.000 in the aftermath of Unite the Right, the mainstream conservatives 3:35:22.200 --> 3:35:25.320 kind of had to tread carefully around social issues because 3:35:25.360 --> 3:35:27.280 it's like, oh, yeah, they're there's still not seas we 3:35:27.400 --> 3:35:30.400 probably shouldn't be pandering to them. Um. But as more 3:35:30.560 --> 3:35:33.560 time a distance led the air cool. Some Conservatives went 3:35:33.640 --> 3:35:35.879 back to the same old rhetoric around the twenty nineteen 3:35:35.920 --> 3:35:40.280 election um. For instance, in his twenty nineteen election campaign, 3:35:40.760 --> 3:35:44.080 uh Tom Chemick, of the parliamentary representative of one of 3:35:44.120 --> 3:35:48.080 the parliamentary representatives for Calgary, Alberta, wrote out and spread 3:35:48.160 --> 3:35:51.360 flyers with the all claps with the all caps header 3:35:51.480 --> 3:35:55.680 of crisis at the Border with text reading deer constituent. 3:35:55.840 --> 3:35:58.640 The Independent Autor General of Canada has published a scathing 3:35:58.680 --> 3:36:01.920 report confirming that the Ottawa Liberals have failed to safely 3:36:01.959 --> 3:36:05.680 and responsibly manage Canada's borders since Justin Trudeau you responsibly 3:36:05.720 --> 3:36:08.480 tweeted out that Canada would open sporers to anyone seeking entry. 3:36:08.720 --> 3:36:11.240 The number of people illegally crossing the board into Canada 3:36:11.240 --> 3:36:14.080 from the United States has surged past one thousand a month, 3:36:14.160 --> 3:36:18.680 with almost twenty people illegally enteringen alone, and while speaking 3:36:18.720 --> 3:36:21.560 to voters of CONAC repeatedly insisted that all the problems 3:36:21.600 --> 3:36:24.800 of people illegally crossing the Canadian border isn't a symptom 3:36:24.840 --> 3:36:27.400 of a failure of systems to respond to a growing crisis, 3:36:27.760 --> 3:36:30.200 but merely a failure for border patrol. To with to 3:36:30.320 --> 3:36:34.840 assert control over people. UM. Quotes and flyer courtesy of 3:36:35.200 --> 3:36:38.840 about This Tom chemic Guy A courtesy of a. Dan 3:36:39.000 --> 3:36:42.720 Olson of Folding Ideas. He's a great Canadian documentarian who 3:36:42.760 --> 3:36:45.280 released a magnificent piece on Q and on and conspiracy 3:36:45.320 --> 3:36:49.480 theories last year on his YouTube channel of Folding Ideas. Overall, 3:36:49.879 --> 3:36:53.200 I really really like Dan. He makes very good stuff. UM, 3:36:54.000 --> 3:36:56.720 so thank thank you to him for sending me those 3:36:56.800 --> 3:37:00.520 those those flyers. UM. Anyway, during the twenty steen election, 3:37:00.760 --> 3:37:03.320 Sheer led the Conservatives to gain a total of twenty 3:37:03.440 --> 3:37:07.520 six seats in the party inside Parliament, going from ninety 3:37:07.640 --> 3:37:10.760 five up to one hundred and twenty one, but they 3:37:10.840 --> 3:37:14.880 did finish thirty six seats behind the Liberals despite beating 3:37:14.920 --> 3:37:17.680 the Liberals in the popular vote by one point three percent. 3:37:18.320 --> 3:37:20.400 So there was a thirty four point four percent for 3:37:20.440 --> 3:37:22.720 Conservatives and thirty three point one percent of the popular 3:37:22.840 --> 3:37:24.959 vote for Liberals. The margin was just over like two 3:37:25.040 --> 3:37:28.080 hundred and forty thousand votes. UM. The Liberals lost twenty 3:37:28.120 --> 3:37:31.279 seats in the election and the n DP lost fifteen seats, 3:37:31.480 --> 3:37:34.240 and this was the first time since to UH since 3:37:34.360 --> 3:37:37.320 nineteen seventy nine that a party won the most seats 3:37:37.480 --> 3:37:41.200 without also winning the popular vote. Um. What what pushed 3:37:41.240 --> 3:37:43.920 the Conservatives over on the popular vote was due to 3:37:44.000 --> 3:37:47.240 you know, extremely high conservative turnout in uh in in 3:37:47.600 --> 3:37:51.520 in various in various writings. So basically more Conservatives voted 3:37:51.560 --> 3:37:53.320 in certain runnings than they usually do, so even if 3:37:53.320 --> 3:37:55.800 the Liberals still win the district, there was still more 3:37:55.800 --> 3:37:59.959 Conservative votes to be counted. Um. And also they based 3:38:00.000 --> 3:38:02.840 really swept the Prairie provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, where 3:38:02.840 --> 3:38:05.640 they won seventy of the vote in sixties five percent 3:38:05.680 --> 3:38:09.120 of the vote respectively. But their victories in those states 3:38:09.240 --> 3:38:12.199 and their higher turnout did not convert into many seats 3:38:12.640 --> 3:38:15.680 because the less population dense areas have fewer federal writings 3:38:15.760 --> 3:38:19.680 and fewer available seats um. And the Liberals had to 3:38:19.800 --> 3:38:23.040 rely heavily for seats in Ontario though, you know, the 3:38:23.160 --> 3:38:26.760 most populous province that include cities like Toronto, um and 3:38:26.879 --> 3:38:30.160 you know other a few other big cities. So you know, 3:38:30.480 --> 3:38:33.000 Canada doesn't have the most democratic system like so the 3:38:33.080 --> 3:38:35.280 same way you know in the States were familiar with 3:38:35.360 --> 3:38:38.400 you know, people losing popular votes, um but still getting 3:38:38.400 --> 3:38:40.600 elected president and stuff. You know, in Canadas, it's it's 3:38:40.680 --> 3:38:42.680 it's a little bit different because of how you vote 3:38:42.720 --> 3:38:46.120 for parties in your own little district. Um. But you know, 3:38:46.160 --> 3:38:48.200 it's still not perfect, right because, like it is, it 3:38:48.440 --> 3:38:51.520 does feel weird for the leader of the leader of 3:38:51.560 --> 3:38:53.560 the country to not have his party to not have 3:38:53.640 --> 3:38:55.400 also won the popular vote because of how you know, 3:38:55.480 --> 3:38:58.279 districts work out and how higher turnout in some areas 3:38:58.320 --> 3:39:01.120 doesn't mean that it's going to have more seats, um. 3:39:01.920 --> 3:39:03.640 You know. But the other side of things here is 3:39:03.720 --> 3:39:07.320 that like Canada also doesn't have ranked choice, so like, 3:39:07.720 --> 3:39:10.000 still the majority of people voted for left of center 3:39:10.040 --> 3:39:12.040 candidates if you include you know, the Green Party, the 3:39:12.160 --> 3:39:14.959 n DP, and the Liberals. So even the Liberals lost 3:39:15.000 --> 3:39:17.320 the popular vote, there's still like a majority left of 3:39:17.400 --> 3:39:20.000 center voting. So if they if they had ranked choice, 3:39:20.040 --> 3:39:23.360 maybe the results would have been different. So Canada's system, 3:39:23.800 --> 3:39:26.880 it definitely is in perfect for how they do elections. UM, 3:39:26.959 --> 3:39:29.560 I would I would prefer ranked choice, as you know, 3:39:29.879 --> 3:39:32.400 basically basically I would prefer that for like every country 3:39:32.400 --> 3:39:35.080 if they're gonna have elections. Um. So yeah, just kind 3:39:35.080 --> 3:39:37.760 of explaining why they can lose the popular vote, but still, 3:39:37.920 --> 3:39:41.920 you know, still win a majority controlling government. UM. So 3:39:42.280 --> 3:39:45.080 after the election, Sheer announced he was resigning as head 3:39:45.120 --> 3:39:47.880 of the Conservatives in December of twenty nineteen. UH. This 3:39:48.040 --> 3:39:49.800 was after it was revealed that he had used party 3:39:49.840 --> 3:39:53.879 funds for his children's own private schooling. So good for him, UM, 3:39:54.760 --> 3:39:57.280 a new bid for Conservative leadership went into effect. We're 3:39:57.280 --> 3:40:00.800 gonna mainly focus on two candidates here. There was an 3:40:01.000 --> 3:40:04.880 erin o'tool and Derek Solan. UM. O'tool fancies himself as 3:40:04.879 --> 3:40:08.080 another kind of like classic financial conservative and a social moderate. 3:40:08.560 --> 3:40:11.840 He feels more like the old progressive Conservative candidates from 3:40:11.879 --> 3:40:13.760 back before the two of US and three Unite the 3:40:13.840 --> 3:40:18.320 Right merger. Um. We got some like John McCain vibes here, UM, 3:40:18.560 --> 3:40:21.440 but Derek solan is more similar to the farther right 3:40:21.520 --> 3:40:24.520 parts of the U s IS current Republican Party, like 3:40:24.560 --> 3:40:30.160 anti abortion, anti LGBT, racist tweets, etcetera. UM. But as 3:40:30.240 --> 3:40:34.320 a whole, Solon's extremism was rejected by the Canadian Conservatives. 3:40:34.720 --> 3:40:36.400 UM he got only he got like only fourth. He 3:40:36.480 --> 3:40:38.920 got fourth placed with fifteen percent of the vote during 3:40:38.959 --> 3:40:42.280 the first round of voting. UM and ultimately o'tool one 3:40:42.400 --> 3:40:46.480 leadership after three rounds of votes, um and o'tool now 3:40:46.640 --> 3:40:49.880 has the has the new challenge of trying to appeal 3:40:50.240 --> 3:40:53.400 to the Canadian Conservatives more moderate wing, as well as 3:40:53.480 --> 3:40:56.240 the more Trumpian wing that's developed the past few years. 3:40:56.879 --> 3:41:00.560 He's been relatively successful in crafting like a boring, polite 3:41:00.720 --> 3:41:04.480 Canadian version of Trump's nationalism, with slogans like Canada First 3:41:04.560 --> 3:41:07.920 and take Canada Back, um, you know, despite supporting trade 3:41:08.000 --> 3:41:12.080 deals outsourcing Canadian jobs to cheaper overseas markets because they 3:41:12.160 --> 3:41:15.840 never actually mean what they say, um and the and 3:41:15.959 --> 3:41:18.720 As the Liberals have grown more aware of Canada's bloody 3:41:18.800 --> 3:41:21.280 history and have like toned down the red and white 3:41:21.320 --> 3:41:25.040 maple leaf patriotism, the Conservative Party under o'tool has seized 3:41:25.080 --> 3:41:27.760 on this opportunity to make Canadian patriotism more of a 3:41:27.920 --> 3:41:30.800 right leaning staple, just like patriotism is, you know, it's 3:41:30.800 --> 3:41:32.240 more of like a right wing thing in the States. 3:41:32.879 --> 3:41:36.400 So basically, after we were like, oh yeah, residental schools 3:41:36.400 --> 3:41:38.840 were bad, Canada's kind of sucked up, liberals are like, Okay, 3:41:38.920 --> 3:41:41.680 we maybe shouldn't be so we shouldn't be waving our 3:41:42.040 --> 3:41:44.720 maple leaf legs everywhere. Maybe we're not a perfect country. 3:41:45.080 --> 3:41:46.920 The Conservatives like, no, you have to be proud to 3:41:46.959 --> 3:41:49.280 be Canadian. So they've kind of taken patriotism to be 3:41:49.320 --> 3:41:51.520 their new thing. Well, previously it was much more of 3:41:51.560 --> 3:41:55.320 like a liberal thing. The Islamophobia and overt religious bigotry 3:41:55.440 --> 3:41:58.040 under a tool has been slightly trimmed down UM, and 3:41:58.120 --> 3:42:01.320 climate change has at least been mentioned as a existing UM. 3:42:01.879 --> 3:42:03.960 But there has also been increased discussion on trying to 3:42:04.080 --> 3:42:08.640 hack down Canada's healthcare and privatize more aspects of it, which, yeah, 3:42:08.840 --> 3:42:13.800 good job, guys, take away the only good part of Canada. UM. 3:42:14.280 --> 3:42:18.000 Like Uh. The province of Alberta under Jason Kenny has 3:42:18.080 --> 3:42:20.400 done this to a disastrous effect UM, raising the cost 3:42:20.480 --> 3:42:23.760 of medical care for lower class people, many of whom 3:42:23.840 --> 3:42:27.120 voted Conservative. UM. I have family in Alberta, and just 3:42:27.240 --> 3:42:29.120 the past five years the changes to the healthcare system 3:42:29.160 --> 3:42:32.280 there has been horrible. UM, it's not it's not great. 3:42:33.000 --> 3:42:35.680 So basically, what what what o'tool wants is he he 3:42:35.840 --> 3:42:38.320 wants he wants to ba just privatize more elements of it. 3:42:38.400 --> 3:42:40.240 He has a specific term he uses like he wants 3:42:40.320 --> 3:42:42.840 like a he wants to like split the fed like 3:42:42.959 --> 3:42:45.480 the like the taxpayer healthcare and privatized health care into 3:42:45.520 --> 3:42:47.200 two sections, and you can choose which one to join 3:42:47.280 --> 3:42:52.120 in anyway, it's silly. Um. O'cheval did take a wee 3:42:52.200 --> 3:42:54.959 little stance to distance himself from the more extreme wings 3:42:55.040 --> 3:42:57.680 of his party when he decided to remove MP Derek 3:42:57.720 --> 3:43:01.120 Solan from the caucus. Uh TOO announced that Solan will 3:43:01.120 --> 3:43:02.800 not be allowed to run as a candidate for the 3:43:03.280 --> 3:43:06.039 for the Conservative Party in the next election either, saying 3:43:06.440 --> 3:43:08.720 racism is a disease of the soul, repugnance to our 3:43:08.760 --> 3:43:10.960 core values. It has no place in our country and 3:43:11.000 --> 3:43:12.960 has no place in the Conservative Party of Canada. I 3:43:13.080 --> 3:43:16.520 won't tolerate it. Um. Also last year, O'Toole refused to 3:43:16.560 --> 3:43:21.280 say whether he thinks systemic racism exists UM. But the 3:43:21.480 --> 3:43:25.240 decision to remove Soland was made after it was revealed 3:43:25.280 --> 3:43:28.560 that he accepted a donation from the Canadian Nazi Paul 3:43:28.640 --> 3:43:33.279 from during uh during Soland's bid for a Conservative leadership 3:43:33.840 --> 3:43:35.880 back in the nineties of From was a figurehead of 3:43:35.879 --> 3:43:39.080 the Canadian far right movement, appearing at Heritage Front rallies 3:43:39.480 --> 3:43:42.600 and also caught on video at a party celebrating Hitler's birthday, 3:43:43.160 --> 3:43:47.720 which he lost his high school teaching job over well, look, 3:43:48.280 --> 3:43:51.400 it's just polite to celebrate a guy's birthday, you know, 3:43:51.560 --> 3:43:54.440 whether or not he's Hitler. Under no circumstances do you 3:43:54.600 --> 3:44:03.880 got us celebrate this? This is a a hot take. Um. So, 3:44:04.480 --> 3:44:06.000 there has been a bit of the there has been 3:44:06.040 --> 3:44:08.400 a bit of a rift in the Conservative Party over 3:44:08.560 --> 3:44:11.520 how much Trumpian rhetoric should be allowed in the Canadian 3:44:11.560 --> 3:44:14.600 Conservative Party. UM and this kind of rift has definitely 3:44:14.760 --> 3:44:19.440 increased after January six. UM. The problem for Conservative politicians 3:44:19.520 --> 3:44:21.440 is that to win elections they need to appeal to 3:44:21.520 --> 3:44:25.040 the largest swath of voters um and that includes more 3:44:25.160 --> 3:44:29.120 socially conservative and increasingly far right rule folks. But if 3:44:29.160 --> 3:44:31.240 they go too far, they'll lose the moderates to the 3:44:31.320 --> 3:44:33.560 Liberal Party. So you have it's like this delicate balance. 3:44:33.920 --> 3:44:35.960 But to kind of give you like an overview of 3:44:36.080 --> 3:44:38.800 what the current state of the Conservative of Like votership 3:44:38.959 --> 3:44:42.720 is UM four. Intent of the Conservative Party of Canada members, 3:44:42.800 --> 3:44:44.560 So you know, people signed up to vote in the party, 3:44:44.840 --> 3:44:48.640 you know, regular people UM four in ten would say 3:44:48.640 --> 3:44:50.959 that they would have voted for Trump for intents, say 3:44:51.040 --> 3:44:54.400 that they think Democrats told the presdential election and for 3:44:54.560 --> 3:44:58.560 intents say that the Conservative and four intent believe that 3:44:59.120 --> 3:45:02.160 the January six riot was staged or was done by 3:45:02.200 --> 3:45:05.520 the Democrats, are done by Antiva. So that's kind of 3:45:05.640 --> 3:45:08.200 the state of the Conservative Party in Canada for like 3:45:08.760 --> 3:45:11.520 the for the voters. So you know, politicians have to 3:45:11.680 --> 3:45:13.200 kind of in order to win, they need they need 3:45:13.240 --> 3:45:15.640 to still still need to appeal to those people, but 3:45:15.800 --> 3:45:19.200 they don't want to do that thing usually, like they 3:45:19.280 --> 3:45:23.000 usually don't like usually there like a big talking point 3:45:23.160 --> 3:45:26.600 is like rejecting the divisive politics of the of the 3:45:26.760 --> 3:45:28.640 of the United States. Like that's a big thing people 3:45:28.680 --> 3:45:31.120 say in Canada. Is that, like they don't want it 3:45:31.160 --> 3:45:33.840 to become like, you know, like a fighting match because 3:45:33.840 --> 3:45:36.880 like the other main difference between Canada's elections in America's 3:45:36.879 --> 3:45:39.840 elections is like America is like always an election season, 3:45:40.080 --> 3:45:42.360 right like every you know, even after each election, it's 3:45:42.360 --> 3:45:45.039 like you feel like campaigns start right up again. Um, 3:45:45.440 --> 3:45:48.600 Canada's campaigns only run like a few months before the election, 3:45:48.840 --> 3:45:52.000 Like like it is not like those things you guys 3:45:52.080 --> 3:45:54.640 do objectively better than a lot of the world does. 3:45:54.720 --> 3:45:56.960 It's not just Canada. The idea that like, oh, elections 3:45:56.959 --> 3:45:59.880 are terrible. We should spend this little time. It's like 3:46:00.160 --> 3:46:03.440 it's like like two or three months of campaigning. That's it. Like, 3:46:03.520 --> 3:46:06.440 it's not it's not like a two year, four year thing. No, 3:46:06.680 --> 3:46:09.000 that is a thing that we should absolutely the election 3:46:09.040 --> 3:46:11.720 should be about eleven minutes from from the start of 3:46:11.760 --> 3:46:14.800 the campaign to the vote. Everybody gets a minute to 3:46:15.000 --> 3:46:18.560 explain their their politics and then we vote and then 3:46:19.000 --> 3:46:23.280 we throw them into the sea. Yeah, So trying to 3:46:23.400 --> 3:46:26.000 trying to craft marketing to the divided right wing. It's 3:46:26.040 --> 3:46:28.600 been interesting to watch. You know, there's like videos about 3:46:28.600 --> 3:46:31.440 Tool walking through you know, downtowns with Pride flags in 3:46:31.480 --> 3:46:35.480 the background and you know, featuring visible like minority Canadians intermingling. 3:46:35.760 --> 3:46:37.560 But then you also have a tool like raally against 3:46:37.600 --> 3:46:41.560 cancel culture feeling suggestions that the liberal government's pandemic response 3:46:41.640 --> 3:46:44.640 is part of a socialist great reset and pulling out 3:46:44.680 --> 3:46:47.560 the dog whistle on like China and the coronavirus, you know, 3:46:47.680 --> 3:46:50.280 as often as you can. UM Tools in the past 3:46:50.320 --> 3:46:55.520 also downplayed Canadians Residential Schools program UM and described the 3:46:55.600 --> 3:46:58.560 efforts of activists pushing to removal of statues of the 3:46:58.680 --> 3:47:02.240 of the Residentary of School architect as stupid. Um, so 3:47:02.400 --> 3:47:05.880 I I do think o'tool prefers a Conservative party resistant 3:47:05.920 --> 3:47:08.040 too far right branding, but he knows he needs to 3:47:08.040 --> 3:47:10.400 appeal to its voters in order to win elections. So 3:47:11.600 --> 3:47:14.440 it's it's it's it's just it's the thing that's not great, 3:47:14.520 --> 3:47:18.480 but it's interesting to watch. Um. In August one, Justin 3:47:18.560 --> 3:47:22.600 Trudeau noted black face appreciator called a snap election in 3:47:22.680 --> 3:47:25.200 an effort to gain more parliamentary seats in hopes of 3:47:25.240 --> 3:47:28.400 getting a majority Liberal government, something a prime minister should 3:47:28.400 --> 3:47:29.720 not be allowed to do, by the way, like a 3:47:29.760 --> 3:47:31.640 priva minister should not be able to decide when to 3:47:31.720 --> 3:47:35.000 do elections. That is, like should totally not be a thing, 3:47:36.280 --> 3:47:41.000 Like what, no, you shouldn't do that. But anyway, um. 3:47:41.320 --> 3:47:45.160 As snap election ramped up, the Conservative Party under a tool, 3:47:45.480 --> 3:47:50.720 made some extremely questionable choices for their marketings and their slogans. Um, 3:47:51.000 --> 3:47:56.959 what does the phrase secure the future bring to mind? Anything? Yeah? 3:47:57.440 --> 3:48:00.440 So that became the new tagline for the entire Servative 3:48:00.520 --> 3:48:05.000 Party under a tool. Kay, sure, we got, we got, 3:48:05.080 --> 3:48:07.560 we got, we got Secure the Future, billboards, we got, 3:48:07.760 --> 3:48:10.440 we got, we got websites Conservative dot c a slash 3:48:10.520 --> 3:48:15.000 Secure the future. We got mailer's magazine covers all emblazoned 3:48:15.080 --> 3:48:19.120 with secure the future or secure our future. Um, and 3:48:19.200 --> 3:48:23.480 you know what will secure our future? Garrison the Chevron 3:48:23.520 --> 3:48:28.879 ads that keep popping up. We keep securing our future. Yeah. Great, 3:48:29.240 --> 3:48:35.400 you're welcome. It's a great time. Chevron appreciators for everyone. Ah, 3:48:35.760 --> 3:48:40.800 we're back and just appreciating Chevron, just like Justin Trudeau. 3:48:40.800 --> 3:48:46.560 Appreciate Justin Trudeau. Yeah, so secure the future great slogan, 3:48:46.720 --> 3:48:49.039 not a good slogan. Bad um. I'm going to read 3:48:49.080 --> 3:48:51.840 a bit from a mailer that went out to Conservative 3:48:51.840 --> 3:48:55.600 Party members after a tool one leadership quote. I firmly 3:48:55.640 --> 3:48:58.240 believe Canada has everything. It has everything it takes to 3:48:58.280 --> 3:49:01.520 recover from COVID nineteen and enjoy prosperous future if we 3:49:01.640 --> 3:49:03.960 have a government that knows how to secure the future. 3:49:04.440 --> 3:49:07.560 If the truth, if the Trudeau Liberals stay in power, 3:49:07.600 --> 3:49:11.160 they'll continue spending taxpayer money at pandemic era levels long before, 3:49:11.320 --> 3:49:14.240 long after the virus is behind us. The result, all 3:49:14.320 --> 3:49:16.720 the things we love about Canada will be in serious jeopardy. 3:49:16.880 --> 3:49:18.920 Our debt will become out of control, and they'll never 3:49:18.960 --> 3:49:20.600 be able to get back the Canada. You and I 3:49:20.760 --> 3:49:23.120 grew up in the kind of Canada our children and 3:49:23.240 --> 3:49:27.240 grandchildren deserve. So later on in the page, oh tool 3:49:27.240 --> 3:49:29.360 says we need to stand up to the Chinese Communist 3:49:29.400 --> 3:49:32.400 Party and hold Beijing accountable for sabotaging our economy and 3:49:32.480 --> 3:49:36.680 taking jobs from Canadian workers. Um And. On August sixteen, 3:49:36.920 --> 3:49:41.000 the Canadian Conservative Party twitter account tweeted out and I quote, 3:49:41.920 --> 3:49:45.720 Canada's recovery program will secure the future for you, your children, 3:49:45.880 --> 3:49:50.960 and your grand and your grandchildren. So that's fun. Also, also, 3:49:51.120 --> 3:49:53.160 guess how guess guess how many words is in that 3:49:53.280 --> 3:49:58.360 last sentence? Yeah, yeah, we're going back to calling Canada 3:49:58.480 --> 3:50:02.240 Calanada again. That's it's like a dog whistle, but except 3:50:02.280 --> 3:50:04.400 for you know, a dog whistle, only dogs can hear it, 3:50:04.720 --> 3:50:08.200 except everyone. It's just a whistle. It's just it's just 3:50:08.240 --> 3:50:11.440 a regular whistle. Yeah, it's it's it's that he just 3:50:11.560 --> 3:50:16.920 tweeted it tweet Yeah. So as anyway, um as O'Toole 3:50:17.000 --> 3:50:19.840 was getting all secure the future piled um. Canada's actual 3:50:20.080 --> 3:50:23.480 far right populist party, the People's Party, was gaining much 3:50:23.600 --> 3:50:27.520 more popularity amid the pandemic and the anti mask, anti lockdown, 3:50:27.600 --> 3:50:31.680 anti VAXX protests. The COVID nineteen pandemic was a gift 3:50:31.760 --> 3:50:33.600 to the far right in general, as it allowed the 3:50:33.640 --> 3:50:36.880 injection and proliferation of conspiracy theories to accelerate at levels 3:50:36.920 --> 3:50:40.160 almost never before seen and provided fair recruiting ground to 3:50:40.240 --> 3:50:43.240 gain new followers. The PPC latched onto this and was 3:50:43.280 --> 3:50:45.960 extremely successful. They were you know, they sponsored protests, They 3:50:46.000 --> 3:50:47.680 did a whole bunch of campaigns that are around like 3:50:47.720 --> 3:50:51.400 anti mask stuff, anti vaccine, you know, all all of it. Um. 3:50:51.840 --> 3:50:53.840 So the PPC was able to be not just a 3:50:53.880 --> 3:50:56.880 safe harper for anti immigration, white nationalists and neo Nazis 3:50:56.880 --> 3:50:59.600 and other far right groups, but also now more mainstream 3:50:59.640 --> 3:51:02.720 anti lockdown, anti vaccine, anti government protesters as well as 3:51:02.760 --> 3:51:06.000 you know, gun rights activists and some general rule workers 3:51:06.080 --> 3:51:09.040 feeling left behind from even the Conservative Party. So the 3:51:09.120 --> 3:51:12.240 PPC has changed from a niche right nationalist party to 3:51:12.320 --> 3:51:16.120 a full blown far right populist force. What Bernar in 3:51:16.200 --> 3:51:18.040 the and the PPC have done so effectively since the 3:51:18.080 --> 3:51:20.480 pandemic is to use the broad concerns around COVID and 3:51:20.640 --> 3:51:24.480 freedom and the more you know, mainstream concerns about economic anxieties, 3:51:24.600 --> 3:51:28.000 job loss, lots of businesses, immigration and changing culture and 3:51:28.040 --> 3:51:30.120 managed and managed to rule all of these things up 3:51:30.120 --> 3:51:32.960 into one tight package, which is really appealing to a 3:51:33.000 --> 3:51:35.360 lot of Canadians who are very anxious about the state 3:51:35.400 --> 3:51:39.800 of their country, especially amid the COVID nineteen pandemic. So 3:51:40.360 --> 3:51:42.720 the results of the September snap election, which was you 3:51:42.760 --> 3:51:45.400 know last month, we're basically the same as the twenty 3:51:45.760 --> 3:51:49.160 election UM, except the PPC went from one point six 3:51:49.200 --> 3:51:51.000 percent of the vote to five percent of the vote, 3:51:51.080 --> 3:51:54.240 A big, big change, uh. They That means they were 3:51:54.280 --> 3:51:58.000 ranking above the Green Party and nearly tying the block 3:51:58.160 --> 3:52:02.320 kebu Qua, So they made I know, like one of 3:52:02.320 --> 3:52:04.720 five percent doesn't seem like tons, but like this is 3:52:04.760 --> 3:52:07.840 a really big jump for a brand new party UM, 3:52:08.320 --> 3:52:10.640 especially especially if they're ahead of the Green Party and 3:52:10.800 --> 3:52:15.280 tying the Block Party. That is like a notable shift UM. 3:52:15.560 --> 3:52:19.320 The University of Ghulaf Professor of of Political Science Tamra 3:52:19.440 --> 3:52:21.960 Small said that said this after the results of the 3:52:22.040 --> 3:52:24.680 last snap election. Quote, I think the only leader who's 3:52:24.680 --> 3:52:27.120 a static about last night's results is Bernair. I don't 3:52:27.160 --> 3:52:29.320 think they're going anywhere. I think it seems that he's 3:52:29.360 --> 3:52:32.040 taken the populism and attached to far right politics, the 3:52:32.160 --> 3:52:34.240 idea that Canada was immune to this sort of far 3:52:34.360 --> 3:52:36.320 right populism, the idea that Canada was going to be 3:52:36.680 --> 3:52:38.920 free from the populism that we saw in Europe, like 3:52:39.120 --> 3:52:41.840 what Nigel Farage is in the UK. But I think 3:52:41.960 --> 3:52:43.920 lots of people are wondering if Bernara is just gonna 3:52:43.920 --> 3:52:46.000 say I'm not here to form an actual government, I'm 3:52:46.040 --> 3:52:48.320 just here to challenge the system and use that as 3:52:48.360 --> 3:52:52.720 a way of gaining massive support. Um. After a CTV 3:52:52.880 --> 3:52:56.920 news emailed the PPC for comment for their post election story, uh, 3:52:57.000 --> 3:53:00.520 the party spokesperson sent back a one line email response, 3:53:01.080 --> 3:53:04.640 I don't respond to requests from leftists. Activists masquerading as 3:53:04.760 --> 3:53:09.040 journalists get lost, so that's fun. Also in late September, 3:53:09.320 --> 3:53:12.960 Bernard's Twitter account was temporarily suspended for encouraging his supporters 3:53:13.000 --> 3:53:18.280 to attack journalists. Yeah just not like I'm okay with 3:53:18.320 --> 3:53:21.080 criticizing journalists stuff, because most journalists are like not great. 3:53:21.200 --> 3:53:24.160 But when you're using your political Twitter account to just 3:53:24.240 --> 3:53:27.400 like tell people to just go attack the press, usually 3:53:27.440 --> 3:53:29.520 it's a bad sign of of like a political party. 3:53:30.280 --> 3:53:32.520 Usually it's just like, yeah, political parties when they do 3:53:32.600 --> 3:53:35.600 that usually leads to bad things. UM, we are going 3:53:35.640 --> 3:53:38.440 to talk about one kind of wrapping up here. We're 3:53:38.560 --> 3:53:42.280 talking about one Ontario People's Party candidate named Mario Greco, 3:53:42.720 --> 3:53:46.160 who was a another another high school teacher UM and 3:53:46.240 --> 3:53:50.680 self proclaimed game developer UM of A few years ago, 3:53:50.840 --> 3:53:53.520 I I see Chriss Vincent because like you know, this 3:53:53.640 --> 3:53:57.120 can't lead to good things the gamers, it can't be good. 3:53:57.560 --> 3:54:00.720 So a few years ago, Greco made a video game 3:54:00.880 --> 3:54:06.080 called Happy Culture Shootout UM. Quoting an article from Press 3:54:06.120 --> 3:54:09.080 Progress dot c A Happy Culture Shootout is a Space 3:54:09.080 --> 3:54:11.720 Invaders style game that allows players to control spaceship that 3:54:11.760 --> 3:54:15.960 shoots laser beams at caricatures of various identity groups. Quote 3:54:16.080 --> 3:54:18.040 this game, it's about an alien order to invade Earth 3:54:18.040 --> 3:54:20.800 and transport all humans to happy Land, Greco says on 3:54:20.880 --> 3:54:23.400 his personal website, which includes other games that he authored, 3:54:23.600 --> 3:54:26.400 like Die mar which is about a young, misunderstood hero 3:54:26.480 --> 3:54:31.480 who sees to liberate post war Germany. Umo in in 3:54:31.520 --> 3:54:35.280 asist in a since telated video obtained by Press Progress, 3:54:35.360 --> 3:54:38.360 The People's Party Canadate delivered a presentation to university students 3:54:38.640 --> 3:54:42.640 several years ago, offering his postmortem on the game UM. 3:54:42.960 --> 3:54:47.400 Reco expressed surprise that his students and faculty reacted negatively 3:54:47.480 --> 3:54:49.760 to the game, with one calling it the most racist 3:54:49.800 --> 3:54:52.240 game I've ever played. Greco says his game is not 3:54:52.440 --> 3:54:54.560 racist in the slightest, noting that he made fun of 3:54:54.600 --> 3:54:58.240 his own Italian heritage. He also claimed that some students 3:54:58.320 --> 3:55:02.920 thought his gay Pride parade level was hilarious. My friends 3:55:02.960 --> 3:55:05.080 and I love people of all cultures, and we also 3:55:05.160 --> 3:55:08.280 love humor of all types that includes harmless racist jokes. 3:55:08.360 --> 3:55:10.960 Greco said in the video, the game was intended to 3:55:11.000 --> 3:55:13.480 make a joke about how ridiculous cultural stereotypes are, so 3:55:13.520 --> 3:55:15.040 we can laugh about it together and move on with 3:55:15.120 --> 3:55:18.600 our lives. UM. During the presentation, the People's Party candidate 3:55:18.760 --> 3:55:22.360 offered a interesting side note about the games Israel level. 3:55:23.000 --> 3:55:26.120 According according to Greco, a faculty member at the university 3:55:26.120 --> 3:55:29.440 strongly recommended that he removed Jewish stereotypes from the game. 3:55:29.720 --> 3:55:31.920 He was like, no, get rid of it immediately. Don't 3:55:31.960 --> 3:55:34.960 have any religious content whatsoever. I know that subject is very, 3:55:35.080 --> 3:55:39.360 very touchy. So yeah, this is just a game where 3:55:39.360 --> 3:55:42.360 you race shoot to minority people. UM. Anyway. In twenty 3:55:42.440 --> 3:55:46.240 six and Greco posted a photo on Facebook of an 3:55:46.280 --> 3:55:48.840 illustration of Pepe the Frog, which he said was drawn 3:55:48.880 --> 3:55:51.520 by one of his students in in the white board 3:55:51.600 --> 3:55:55.600 of his York Region high school. Um Peppe had a 3:55:55.600 --> 3:56:01.560 little speech bubble that said free Kuekistan Gray yep. So 3:56:02.080 --> 3:56:07.000 now nazis so. Currently Greco is spending his time tweeting 3:56:07.000 --> 3:56:09.920 about critical race theory and trying to get into office 3:56:10.000 --> 3:56:12.640 under the People's Party banner UM. In his Twitter bio, 3:56:12.800 --> 3:56:16.920 he calls himself an egalitarian, libertarian nationalist, and he still 3:56:16.960 --> 3:56:20.960 also teaches computer science at Ontario High School. Diferent call 3:56:21.080 --> 3:56:25.840 themselves fascists. I know it's it's not fun. These people 3:56:25.880 --> 3:56:30.840 are all all for the worst, most scum. Um. And 3:56:31.120 --> 3:56:34.760 one one more thing before we sign off. UM. Last month, 3:56:34.960 --> 3:56:38.440 right before the September election, I was forwarded some pictures 3:56:39.360 --> 3:56:43.360 of some People's Party of Canada posters and flyers put 3:56:43.440 --> 3:56:46.840 up linking to their campaign website. That someone came across 3:56:47.040 --> 3:56:50.920 UM around town, not not Portland's, like somewhere in Canada. 3:56:51.360 --> 3:56:55.360 UM under the PPC logo there was you know, pictures 3:56:55.400 --> 3:56:58.720 of people's faces and big black text that said it's 3:56:58.760 --> 3:57:05.520 okay to be white, right bad. So that's the liberal utopia. 3:57:05.520 --> 3:57:10.000 Of Canada everybody, um, And basically, like the reason why 3:57:10.000 --> 3:57:11.480 I wanted to put these episodes together, it's because like 3:57:11.520 --> 3:57:12.840 we we lots of like, you know, we make a 3:57:12.880 --> 3:57:14.840 lot of jokes about, you know, escaping to Canada as 3:57:14.880 --> 3:57:16.680 the States gets too fascist, and I just want to 3:57:16.760 --> 3:57:19.400 like say, like I'm not saying Canada's getting at the 3:57:19.480 --> 3:57:22.440 same rate, but Canada is not immune to the same thing. 3:57:22.600 --> 3:57:26.400 Like it's it's it's it's it's you can't you can't 3:57:26.480 --> 3:57:31.880 run away from authoritarianism by moving, yeah to a country 3:57:31.960 --> 3:57:34.720 with no history of authoritarianism, like I don't know Germany, 3:57:35.440 --> 3:57:38.040 uh huh. Yeah. And I think the everything is important 3:57:38.040 --> 3:57:40.720 with with Canada particularly is that like Canada is like 3:57:40.960 --> 3:57:43.800 affected by American political trends. And you see this absolutely 3:57:44.200 --> 3:57:45.840 like like one of one of the things that I 3:57:45.920 --> 3:57:47.680 remember looking at when I was when I was looking 3:57:47.720 --> 3:57:50.240 into sort of if you look at the history of 3:57:50.400 --> 3:57:52.720 like anti astion riots for example, So there's a huge 3:57:52.760 --> 3:57:54.320 wave and night No. Seven that goes like it goes 3:57:54.320 --> 3:57:55.680 all the way up the West coast because a lot 3:57:55.760 --> 3:57:58.680 of them, and it ends in Toronto, yeah, a lot 3:57:58.760 --> 3:58:00.760 of you know, yeah, and you see you see that 3:58:00.840 --> 3:58:03.360 like and you see that like today to where it's like, yeah, 3:58:03.440 --> 3:58:06.960 the Toronto I think has the highest rate of anti 3:58:07.040 --> 3:58:10.640 Asian attacks like in North America. That's not pretty impressive 3:58:10.680 --> 3:58:13.680 considering like the absolute shit show going on in like 3:58:14.160 --> 3:58:16.640 New York, in LA and Seattle, and it's like, no, 3:58:16.760 --> 3:58:21.080 Toronto's worse. No, it's it's it's real bad. There's I 3:58:21.480 --> 3:58:23.960 talk a lot about how the far right is getting 3:58:24.000 --> 3:58:26.000 a lot, a lot more, a lot stronger of an 3:58:26.040 --> 3:58:28.960 influence in Alberta, and it is spreading into other eastern 3:58:29.120 --> 3:58:31.720 eastern provinces, not just inside Quebec. You know, there was 3:58:31.760 --> 3:58:33.960 the insult attack in Toronto a few years ago that 3:58:34.080 --> 3:58:36.360 killed like I think like a dozen people. Of course, 3:58:36.400 --> 3:58:39.120 there was the Quebec mosque shooting. There's been a lot 3:58:39.200 --> 3:58:41.360 of these kind of things popping off, and you know, 3:58:41.480 --> 3:58:45.040 there's there's even more starting in like British Columbia as well, 3:58:45.160 --> 3:58:47.680 which is which has a decent far right kind of 3:58:47.760 --> 3:58:50.560 influence at least on the eastern side of BC, um 3:58:50.880 --> 3:58:55.200 away from like Victoria and from Vancouver. UM. So yeah, 3:58:55.240 --> 3:58:56.960 I just wanted to like place together and be like, hey, 3:58:57.040 --> 3:58:59.160 you know, it's it's worth looking at these countries that 3:58:59.200 --> 3:59:01.960 we usually view with you know, generally doing better and 3:59:02.080 --> 3:59:04.680 be like no, like it's the same thing is happening there, 3:59:04.720 --> 3:59:07.320 and it's all it's all part of the same overarching 3:59:07.480 --> 3:59:10.360 slide right word that we've seen in both in the 3:59:10.560 --> 3:59:13.240 UK we were even seeing it now in Germany, we're 3:59:13.280 --> 3:59:15.840 seeing it, you know, in the obviously the States under Trump, 3:59:16.000 --> 3:59:18.480 and in Canada, even though the Liberals have won the 3:59:18.560 --> 3:59:22.480 past few elections, it's still scooting right word. So yeah, 3:59:22.560 --> 3:59:24.640 I just wanted to put this thing together. If you 3:59:24.680 --> 3:59:26.480 want to keep up to date on Canadian stuff, you 3:59:26.520 --> 3:59:29.600 can check out the Canadian Antihit network, which does work 3:59:29.640 --> 3:59:34.280 tracking extremism in Canada. And yeah, that is uh, that 3:59:34.400 --> 3:59:38.240 is what I put together. Thanks Garrison. Yeah, you're welcoming 3:59:38.320 --> 3:59:41.960 from You're welcome. Well, that's the episode that's gonna do 3:59:42.080 --> 3:59:43.920 it for us here and it could happen here today, 3:59:44.280 --> 3:59:47.360 come back tomorrow or you know whenever, and we'll talk 3:59:47.400 --> 3:59:51.320 about another part of the world. Maybe I don't know Portugal. 3:59:51.600 --> 3:59:57.920 Fuck it, I don't have stuff pulled for partures. No, 3:59:58.240 --> 4:00:01.840 that's what we're doing now. Follow us on Twitter, on Instagram, 4:00:01.920 --> 4:00:03.440 and it could happen here. Pod and Cools on media 4:00:03.560 --> 4:00:12.200 leafive star reviews, whatever, Goodbye, Goodbye Hey. We'll be back 4:00:12.240 --> 4:00:15.400 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 4:00:15.480 --> 4:00:18.360 heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is 4:00:18.400 --> 4:00:21.080 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 4:00:21.120 --> 4:00:24.000 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 4:00:24.200 --> 4:00:25.920 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 4:00:25.960 --> 4:00:29.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 4:00:29.320 --> 4:00:32.000 find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 4:00:32.040 --> 4:00:35.240 cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.