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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen

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Speaker 1: here a podcast that is on the cycle of being

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Speaker 1: sort of Okayley introduced. When this episode goes out, it

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Speaker 1: will be Indigenous People's Day and so to to talk

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Speaker 1: about that more where we're gonna talk to Dalia Killsbach,

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Speaker 1: who is a member of the Northern Chyenne, has Northern

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Speaker 1: Cheyenne tribal citizenship and has sort of studied and worked

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Speaker 1: in federal India tribal policy. Dahlia, Hello, how how are

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Speaker 1: you doing? I'm doing well. Thank you for inviting me

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Speaker 1: here today. Of course Garrison is also here. Garrison, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm currently also doing writing about indigenous stuff, but

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Speaker 1: within the context of Canada, which people should will probably

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Speaker 1: here later this week. Um so yeah, I guess first

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Speaker 1: thing I wanted to talk about is a little bit

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Speaker 1: is about what Indigenous People's Day is and why it

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Speaker 1: is that and not the other thing. UM. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: Indigenous People's Day UM, as many people know, is replacing

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, Chris Christopher Columbus Day, UM that is

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Speaker 1: still like a federal holiday. But so multiple cities and

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Speaker 1: states have opted to use Indigenous People's Day instead UM.

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Speaker 1: And the reasoning for that is acknowledging the atrocities that

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Speaker 1: were committed by Christopher Columbus, who first of all did

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Speaker 1: not discover America UM, but um continue to UM not

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Speaker 1: only use slavery, but um commit different forms of genocide, rape, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: all of these terrible atrocities. And so rather than celebrating

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Speaker 1: UM somebody like that UM, Indigenous people say, UM has

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Speaker 1: been implemented in order to recognize the people who are

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Speaker 1: actually here first UM and indigenous people's across the America's

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Speaker 1: there histories, UM, cultures and contributions. Yeah, Columbus, real piece

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Speaker 1: of ship, worst Christopher, Like, yeah, it really cannot be

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Speaker 1: overstated how baddy that guy was, even you know, even

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Speaker 1: people in that era who had committed their own genocides

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Speaker 1: like Isabelle and Ferdinand, who you know, expelled the Jews

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Speaker 1: from Spain, where it's like, you know, if once you've

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Speaker 1: reached the sentence expelled the Jews from X like you

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Speaker 1: you're are, You're already in the ship lists of the

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Speaker 1: worst people in human history. And even they saw what

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Speaker 1: Columbus was doing, it was like what on Earth, bad

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Speaker 1: bad guy, bad name. Things are going to continue to

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Speaker 1: go badly? And yeah, that that was an everything that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about, which is federal Indian policy.

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Speaker 1: And you know this this is an incredibly broad This

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Speaker 1: is an incredibly broad area spanning like three hundred years.

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Speaker 1: So we're not gonna be able to go into like

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Speaker 1: an enormous amount of depth in it. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's important that people have an understanding of, i mean,

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Speaker 1: aged what the US did and how everyone else has

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Speaker 1: had this sort of deal with it. And then also

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Speaker 1: the fact that this is something that changes over time

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Speaker 1: and has has looked different, It's looked it's been bad

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Speaker 1: in different ways. Yeah, and so when talking about federal

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Speaker 1: Indian policy, I always like to contextualize it within a

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Speaker 1: larger um sort of like Euro American, like Teley bology

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Speaker 1: of colonial conquests and then moving on to settler colonialism

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Speaker 1: and where we are with federal federal Indian policy currently.

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Speaker 1: Um So, how do we connect Christopher Columbus to where

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Speaker 1: we are currently? Um? And this is the history of

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Speaker 1: federal Indian policy and Western legal discourse and how UM

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Speaker 1: European powers throughout history have defined what it means to

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Speaker 1: be an Indian person in relationship to UM indigenous people's

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Speaker 1: rights to their own land and to self governance. UM.

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Speaker 1: So when we're looking at the different periods of federal

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Speaker 1: Indian policy UM, prior to their being the United States government,

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Speaker 1: we have the colonial period UM, which is fourteen ninety

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Speaker 1: two to seventeen seventies six. UM. This is how federal

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Speaker 1: Indian policy illegal scholars divide that UM. And it's really

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Speaker 1: important to kind of give the difference between what is

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Speaker 1: um a colonial state versus a settler colonial state when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about not just the United States government, but

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Speaker 1: also the Canadian government and UM different governments globally. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I want to talk just a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what I mean by the difference between a colonial government

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Speaker 1: and a settler colonial government, because they're tied together. UM.

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Speaker 1: So by a settler colonial government. I mean what I

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Speaker 1: mean is that it is defined by the d territorialization

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Speaker 1: of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a

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Speaker 1: colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the

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Speaker 1: Spanish and with the English, etcetera, UM is rather than

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Speaker 1: a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources

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Speaker 1: are going back to the metrical all these resources are

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Speaker 1: going back to England or to Spain, etcetera. And colonial

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Speaker 1: occupation is in is um conceptualized within this way. In

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Speaker 1: settler colonial governments, UM, the colonists come to these lands

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Speaker 1: and stay and they're what they define as sovereignty is

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Speaker 1: within this land that they define now as their own.

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Speaker 1: So and in order for that process to happen, UM,

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Speaker 1: there needs to be different forms of genocide of the

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Speaker 1: indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher

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Speaker 1: Columbus and throughout history UM was just the depletion of

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Speaker 1: a lot of our indigenous populous UM. And so when

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Speaker 1: I mean about the United States UM being a settler

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Speaker 1: colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing.

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Speaker 1: And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, UM,

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Speaker 1: federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what

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Speaker 1: started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery and um,

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Speaker 1: so that's how we define the colonial period and feel

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Speaker 1: free to like stop me and ask me questions. Else

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, I think we probably should briefly talk

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Speaker 1: about what the doctory discovery is m letasy before we

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Speaker 1: get to sit at the martial trilogy and stuff. For sure,

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Speaker 1: what does that actually mean legally? Um? So legally, UM,

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Speaker 1: it's the discovery of a quote unquote New found Land

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Speaker 1: UM by European colonial forces. And the reason why it's

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Speaker 1: called the doctrine of discovery was that indigenous peoples on

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Speaker 1: these lands were deemed unable to govern themselves and they

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Speaker 1: did not know how to utilize their land up to

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Speaker 1: the definition of what the European powers thought um land

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Speaker 1: use was that um, indigenous peoples didn't have the same

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Speaker 1: concept of property um, and same with their relationship with

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Speaker 1: resources and resource extraction. So when um, Christopher Columbus and

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Speaker 1: all of these other colonizers clunky clunkyst doors came to

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote New Land, UM, they saw all of

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Speaker 1: this rich plentiful resource and thoughts of themselves. Well, obviously

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Speaker 1: these people don't know what they're doing because there's just

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Speaker 1: so much they have not done anything with it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to take this back to two hours

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Speaker 1: because obviously their inferior beings and don't know what property is.

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Speaker 1: So um legally um it the doctrine of discovery conveyed

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Speaker 1: legal title to an ownership of Americans soil to European

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Speaker 1: nations um, a title that devolved to the United States

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Speaker 1: and so UM. This definition is expansive UM. And expansive

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Speaker 1: discovery implies that Native nations have a right to lands

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Speaker 1: as occupants or possessors, but they are incompetent to manage

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Speaker 1: those lands and need a quote unquote benevolent guardian such

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Speaker 1: as a federal government who holds legal title and UM.

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Speaker 1: So when we're talking about this legal title, it devolves

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Speaker 1: to the United States later on UM in history, after

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Speaker 1: the American Revolution UM, and so rather than being colonial

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Speaker 1: states um as the United States like thirteen original colonies,

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Speaker 1: given um the American Revolution and its own constitution and

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Speaker 1: its creation of itself as a nation state, then that

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Speaker 1: turns into a set colonial government. Yeah, I think we can, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we can get to what happens next then, because yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have you have this elaborate legal framework that lets

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Speaker 1: you steal people's land and murder them and then control it.

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Speaker 1: And then the outgrowth of that is this sort of

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Speaker 1: weird event where the colonies go into rebellion and suddenly, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's there's not a colony. They're not colonies anymore. They

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Speaker 1: just are the state. And so yeah, about what happens

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Speaker 1: next after the sort of formation of the United States.

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Speaker 1: So after the formation of the United States, Um, so

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Speaker 1: we have this period the American Revolution, it's all not

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Speaker 1: really dive that into. It is seventeen seventy six to

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighty nine, and it's called the Confederation period. But

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Speaker 1: next we have the Trade and Intercourse AFT era, which

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Speaker 1: is from seventeen eighty nine to eighteen thirty five. And

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Speaker 1: so this is defined with the United States Constitution and

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Speaker 1: Congress's exclusive right to regulate trade relations and make lands

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Speaker 1: since the land secessions, and enter into treaties with tribes.

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Speaker 1: So this is a treaty making era with the tribes

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Speaker 1: that only the United States federal government is able to

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Speaker 1: And there's a distinction there because there had been a

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Speaker 1: lot of contestation between states and the federal government as

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Speaker 1: to who is going to now deal with these, um,

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Speaker 1: these nations that are with our within our own settler

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Speaker 1: colonial borders. So whose job is that to solve this issue? Um?

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Speaker 1: So within the United States Constitution, there are three clauses

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Speaker 1: that define the United States legal relationship to American Indians.

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Speaker 1: And so these are the treaty making clause, the commerce clause,

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Speaker 1: and the property clause. Um. And so this this movement

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Speaker 1: from just relying on the doctrine of discovery and treaty

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Speaker 1: making processes between different European powers now is between the

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Speaker 1: United States federal government and tribes. And so what this

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Speaker 1: does is now tribes are located within the United States territory,

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Speaker 1: and this places Indians within the boundaries and jurisdiction of

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Speaker 1: the United States, and now there are a matter of

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Speaker 1: domestic interest something It leads it to one of the

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Speaker 1: sort of complicated questions that changes to this whole era,

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Speaker 1: which is about what does sovereignty mean for these tribes

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Speaker 1: and to what extent to the even continue to possess it?

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Speaker 1: And how does that even sort of how does that

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Speaker 1: work if you have when you have this new state

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Speaker 1: that's sort of just has his clean control here, right,

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Speaker 1: and also during this period UM, well, well later on

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Speaker 1: when we have UM, sorry jumping ahead of myself, when

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Speaker 1: we have the extermination of the treaty making process, and

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Speaker 1: this completely removes seeing tribes as independent sovereign nations. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I think that will kind of get more into

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Speaker 1: that later. But the thing with federal Indian policy UM

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Speaker 1: is that it's sort of self prophesizing. So as settlers

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Speaker 1: are moving across America, UM, the United States government also

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Speaker 1: has to create these policies UM in order to legalize

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Speaker 1: these land cessations and movements. And a pattern that we

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Speaker 1: do see here UM throughout history and throughout time is

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Speaker 1: that the United States federal government, as a settler state

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Speaker 1: is UM over the rights of over the um rights

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Speaker 1: to land and rights of indigenous peoples themselves. You have

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Speaker 1: a priority of the settler state in order to acquire land.

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Speaker 1: So that a lot of the reason why um, later

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Speaker 1: these treaties will be broken, etcetera, is because settlers are

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Speaker 1: moving into these lands and the United States is then

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Speaker 1: breaking these treaties in order to um have more more land,

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Speaker 1: more land secessions. Yeah, the laws are of just following

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Speaker 1: the violence, and it's just becomes a sort of retroactive justification.

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Speaker 1: For yes, it's it's a self justifying sort of sovereignty.

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Speaker 1: So this is the Removal period and what a lot

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Speaker 1: of people may have heard of. So it's from five

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Speaker 1: to eighteen sixty one. And what we have is the

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Speaker 1: extinguishment of Indian title to eastern lands and the removal

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Speaker 1: of Indian tribes westward. So UM. One of the most

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Speaker 1: notable acts is the Removal Act which was authorized by

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Speaker 1: President Andrew Jackson, which moved Um Indians from the east

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Speaker 1: to the west of the Mississippi River into what was

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Speaker 1: called Indian Territory UM. And what brought about this UM

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Speaker 1: Federal Federal Act UM was a series of three foundational

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Speaker 1: statutes within Federal Indian Policy UM dictated by Chief Justice

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Speaker 1: John Marshall. So first we have Johnson B. Macintosh Cherokee

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Speaker 1: Nation be Georgia and Worcester be Georgia. And I won't

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Speaker 1: go into too much detail, but what this these essentially

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Speaker 1: UM did and legally defined tribes as being domestic dependent nations.

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Speaker 1: And so it clarified more that again tribal nations are

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Speaker 1: underneath the federal government's overview, not the states. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it placed tribes above state jurisdiction. And what this is

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Speaker 1: trying to do was UM solve some issues that tribes

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Speaker 1: such as the Cherokee Nation had with different states when

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Speaker 1: it came to land and UM jurisdiction over said land. Um.

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Speaker 1: But that is kind of the basis of a lot

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Speaker 1: of federal Indian policy and still remains truth day And

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Speaker 1: what is notable um in each one of these statutes um,

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Speaker 1: I believe, particularly in Worcester the Georgia, although it seems

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Speaker 1: that it was supporting tribal sovereignty in them and that

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Speaker 1: they were above state jurisdiction, a lot of these UM

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Speaker 1: statute sided racist president and the doctrine of Discovery. So um,

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Speaker 1: what you see for federal Indian policy is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the found well all the foundation for federal

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Speaker 1: Indian policy based on President is the doctrine of Discovery,

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Speaker 1: which is reliant on the idea that American Indians were

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Speaker 1: savages and needed um federal benevolence and um paternalism in

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Speaker 1: order to regulate their own affairs. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's well, okay, we should probably not just immediatelys's get

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Speaker 1: to allotment. But yeah, because there there's there's, there's there's

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Speaker 1: also Yeah, this is also the period of used. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the thing you were talking about earlier, the thing you

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Speaker 1: helped me know about, which is okay, it's not true

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Speaker 1: to say this is when this starts, but this is

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Speaker 1: Indian Removal Act Trail of Tears territory. And one thing

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Speaker 1: that you know, I think one of one of the

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Speaker 1: sort of running themes of this is that you know,

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Speaker 1: the the law in this context is just sort of

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Speaker 1: it becomes a sort of retroactive excuse to do whatever

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Speaker 1: needs to be done from the perspective quote unquote of

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Speaker 1: the sort of of the settler state to just take

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Speaker 1: all of this land. Yeah. And I think maybe like

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Speaker 1: one of the keystones of this is Andrew Jackson just

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Speaker 1: straight up tellings between court to funk Off so that

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Speaker 1: he can do so he can do with Trail of Tears. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: so the Removal Act have and after all of these

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Speaker 1: statutes that you already had that supported um, federal Indian sovereignty,

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Speaker 1: and so the Cherokees in Georgia were one of the

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Speaker 1: tribes that were removed. Um. And so you kind of

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Speaker 1: see what you talked about the the retrograde kind of

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Speaker 1: justifications for said removal despite um the statutes that are there.

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Speaker 1: So although that like Marshall UM in Worcester, g Georgia

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Speaker 1: determined that the State of Georgia did not have jurisdiction

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Speaker 1: over Cherokee territory, all this territory, although this territory was

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Speaker 1: in the state's borders. UM. Later on you see with

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Speaker 1: the Removal Act that although these statutes are still president

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Speaker 1: in federal Indian policy, those were noel in order for

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Speaker 1: UM there to be more UM expansion of settlers within

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Speaker 1: these areas. Is so when it was decided that, oh, wait,

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Speaker 1: we do need this land, and we don't actually want

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Speaker 1: these Indians here, let's put them to the side over

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Speaker 1: past the Mississippi so that they're out of side, out

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Speaker 1: of mind. Right, So we see more of this UM

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Speaker 1: justification for settler expansion. And so again we bring back

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Speaker 1: to these themes of like settler colonialism in order to

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Speaker 1: UM kind of gain more of this land. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of these statutes are still cited the doctrine of

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Speaker 1: discovery in them and rather than supporting tribal policy, the

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Speaker 1: relationship between the United States federal government and American Indians.

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Speaker 1: Um was not based on the rights of Indians, but

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Speaker 1: more that they can't they can't govern themselves, right and

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Speaker 1: so so and that's the whole issue. It is like

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Speaker 1: people are like they don't know what they're doing, so

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Speaker 1: we're gonna push them and like take their land again.

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Speaker 1: So I I I don't know if you want me

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Speaker 1: to go too much into the trail of tears, but um,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a lot of patterns here, I think, different

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Speaker 1: forms of genocide, different forms of taking land. This was

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Speaker 1: This is all around the same time as the Indian

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Speaker 1: Acting Canada as well, which was did a very similar thing,

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Speaker 1: especially starting in the starting in the twenty century as

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Speaker 1: well with the like expansion of the like assimilation programs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think I guess the only thing I want

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Speaker 1: to point out about this is that, you know, so

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Speaker 1: one of one of the things that happens trailers tears

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Speaker 1: at the Streame Court like tells Jackson that he can't

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Speaker 1: do this, and j actually just does it anyways, And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very interesting important moment because you know,

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Speaker 1: this is this is this thing right where the federal

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Speaker 1: government can tell there's Supreme Court to funk off right,

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Speaker 1: and there's nothing that streame courts could do about it.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at what they did it to do,

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Speaker 1: the thing they did it to do was genocide. And

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Speaker 1: it's I think it's it's just I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very sort of I don't know, this incredibly grim like

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Speaker 1: you know, encapsulation of like what this state actually is,

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Speaker 1: which is the sort of genocide machine and whatever sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, this is what sovereignty is, right, the

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Speaker 1: ability to break your own rules to sort of into

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Speaker 1: or to maintain the system. So you know, you break

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Speaker 1: your own laws and you know, as we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: you in a second, like you break your own treaties continuously.

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Speaker 1: And you do this because you know, the genoside machine

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Speaker 1: has to keep moving, right. And um there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of federal and new policy theorists, um Bindeler Jr. Who's

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins,

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Speaker 1: who talks about how there is no need for checks

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Speaker 1: and balances within the federal ding policy system. So you

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Speaker 1: have Congress that is able to um pass whatever act

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Speaker 1: they want, and and then you also have the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and then you also have executive action, but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: really delineated at well UM within especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this period as to who is going to be

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Speaker 1: dealing with the Indians kind of thing UM. And so

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Speaker 1: this kind of confusion and not really completely defining what

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Speaker 1: it means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think

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Speaker 1: really just goes to show how much of a fragile

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Speaker 1: edifice like settler um colonial policy is for it is

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Speaker 1: within the system UM. But again moving on, it comes

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Speaker 1: back again to land. So the reservation area era in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty one to eighteen eighty seven UM has you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of westward expansion of non Indians UM settlers,

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Speaker 1: specifically to California. You also have the creation of Indian

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Speaker 1: reservations and resulting Indian wars UM. Uh. So during this

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Speaker 1: era what you see a lot a lot of UM

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Speaker 1: are different types of attempts that assimilation UM and a

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Speaker 1: lot of warfare. So you have a lot of the

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Speaker 1: Plains tribes my tribe for instance, UM, that are going

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Speaker 1: through all of these battles fighting UM forced removal onto

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Speaker 1: reservations UM. One of the most famous ones was UM

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Speaker 1: the Battle of Greasy Grass or a little big Horn

341
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Speaker 1: UM where General Custer was killed by Sue Cheyennes and Arapahos,

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Speaker 1: and different instances of battles such as those, and also

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Speaker 1: where a lot of tribes UM were forcibly removed to

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Speaker 1: areas that they weren't originally from. So like how the

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Speaker 1: Sheriffees were moved to Oklahoma, there was attempts of my tribe,

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Speaker 1: for instance, more than Cheyenne to be moved down to

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma as well, and that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes

348
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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma and and my tribes and norther Insurance in Montana.

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Speaker 1: Another UM. Another thing that is happening during this period

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Speaker 1: are boarding schools UM, the boarding school era. So this

351
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: attempt at assimilation through education UM, and assimilation is also

352
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Speaker 1: UM within within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's

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Speaker 1: it's defined as a process where indigenous people end up

354
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Speaker 1: UM conforming to different constructed notions of UM settler norms UM.

355
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Speaker 1: So if they're not absorbed within the state completely, then

356
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Speaker 1: their attempted attempt to be assimilated UM culturally UM through education,

357
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Speaker 1: through languages. In terms of economics and how you have

358
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations,

359
00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: trying to make tribal governments appear to be UM or

360
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: constructed as as settler colonial governments are UM. So maybe

361
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: it's the three branches UM in ways that aren't just

362
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: compatible with different tribes culturally, and you also have the

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00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: attemptive eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices,

364
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Speaker 1: and a lot of Christianity be cours not to different people,

365
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Speaker 1: and just kind of terrible things that UM. I think

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Speaker 1: more and more people are becoming aware of due to

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Speaker 1: due to current movements. But we'll get into that moment later.

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Speaker 1: Do we want to talk about a lot and briefly

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Speaker 1: because if I remember quickly, this is in the same period, yes,

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Speaker 1: a lotment period and UM course assimilation. So this is

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Speaker 1: like eighteen seventy one to nineteen thirty four, and so

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Speaker 1: this is the end of the treaty making process. So

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Speaker 1: the whole idea of UM trying to force tribes onto

374
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Speaker 1: reservations and signed these treaties were too again take land

375
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Speaker 1: and make sure that the United States has more land

376
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Speaker 1: and all the land etcetera that they possibly have UM.

377
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Speaker 1: So at this end of treaty making, UM federal allotment

378
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Speaker 1: of Indian lands also happened in the UM the Jaws

379
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Speaker 1: Act UM. And so what this was was an attempt

380
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Speaker 1: to UM further shrink the reservation lands that tribes are

381
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: already guaranteed within treaties UM. So during this period, I

382
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 1: think that somewhere like nine million acres were UM taken

383
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Speaker 1: from tribal reservations during the allotment process. So that what

384
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: the allotment process did was it counted each in every

385
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: individual Indian UM that was eligible. I think there were

386
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: adults UM. Yeah, adults that were eligible UM, and each

387
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: one of them were given a certain parcel of land,

388
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: a certain number of acreage UM. And once all of

389
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: this land was calculated, what you had was an excess

390
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: of land quote unquote excess of land that the tribes

391
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: obviously didn't need because they had still too too many people.

392
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: And so what the excess of land UM was utilized

393
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: force for pioneers and for settlers UM. If it didn't

394
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: go UM to the federal government, it was to UM

395
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: incentivized settlers to colonized, esscial settle on Indian lands. So

396
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: trying its hardest to not stay true to its treaty

397
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: making practices. I think the everything goes interesting to me

398
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: about this is that like because one of the other

399
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: goals of this is to sort of like, oh is

400
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: the civilizing mission. It's like, yeah, we're gonna turn them

401
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: into We're gonna turn these people into like like human farmers,

402
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: like true American fintiersman or whatever. And it's just like

403
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work because economically it doesn't make any sense,

404
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: like breaking up all these like lands, It's like, it

405
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: doesn't you can't just give someone like a small patch

406
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: of like shitty land and have them farm like this

407
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: doesn't like this, it doesn't. It doesn't. Like they certainly tried,

408
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, like that was one of the main things.

409
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: One of the main things in Canada was about getting

410
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: them to adopt like like European farming practices, which which

411
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: they already knew how to get their own food, right,

412
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: they were trying to change this whole system of of

413
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: like of of food growth to to this like to

414
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: this European way of of farming, and it just and

415
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: they were just forcing them to and there's yeah, it's

416
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: it's yeah, gets it gets it gets super gets super

417
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: like dark and horrible once you like look at like

418
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: the letters that were being written by like the heads

419
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: of these programs, um, like you know, instructing, like these

420
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 1: agents were stationed at these like reservations that to like

421
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: force people to be doing doing this horrible farming for

422
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: like all day every day. And I think, you know,

423
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: the sign that this was like like this is this

424
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: is so bad that even the US government eventually is

425
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: like wait this this like this is fucked up and

426
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: doesn't work. So I think that's yeah, you're transition to

427
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: sort of like the next phase. I guess, yeah, a

428
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: very short phase. Um. Yeah. So the next phase um

429
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: is the Indian Reorganization Act. And so this only lasted

430
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: six years from nineteen thirty four in nineteen forty um,

431
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: so this is when allotment ended. As you said, the

432
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. Um,

433
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: what can we do? What? The Indians aren't dying off,

434
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: they're not assimilating, they're not a culturating. We don't know

435
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: what to do with them. UM, so maybe we'll we'll

436
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: have them adopt these constitutions and a lot of them

437
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: were just templates, so regardless of whether or not they

438
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: were um, I think compatible with tribal different tribes way

439
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: of life. They were like, you have these constitutions now, um,

440
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: now you're you're a tribe, and this is what each

441
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: tribe has to look like in order for us the

442
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: federal government to recognize you as a legitimate entity. Uh

443
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,239
Speaker 1: and um. And then so you have the establishment of

444
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: these um tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and

445
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: the business committees, etcetera. However, this period is fleeting, very

446
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: fleeting UM. And next UM, you have the termination era.

447
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: So this is the period of time where the federal

448
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: government essentially even more so, wants to just get rid

449
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: of the quote unquote Indian problem, which is the existence

450
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: of indigenous peoples UM that are reminders to the government

451
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: essentially that um, they are a settler colonial force and

452
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: they don't know what to do with us because they

453
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: tried to commit genocide, they tried to remove us, etcetera, etcetera.

454
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: It's still not working. Um. They decided that our travel

455
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: governments UM aren't aren't legitimate, and they just decide, well,

456
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: it's too much to try to keep up with our

457
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: treaties and what we promised them. When it comes to healthcare, education, housing, etcetera, etcetera.

458
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility

459
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: that are delineated in federal in the policy and in

460
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: our treaties, UM and give them off to this to

461
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: the states to decide what to do with and says.

462
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: During this period you see um sort of the federal

463
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: um dissolution of some tribes such as the monomy Um

464
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: and other ones um as well. So this is another

465
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: dark time there. The dark times just keep on coming.

466
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: And what federal policy scholars have UM characterized federal undw

467
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: policy as a pendulum the swinging swinging from side to

468
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: side between this terminal, this termination of tribes, So the

469
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: federal Indian government as trying to get rid of tribes,

470
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: especially as you can see in this era, and then

471
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: the pendulum of the other side of self determination. But

472
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: both of these are held within the context of goals

473
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: of assimilation. So um, this is just another phase of terribleness. Well,

474
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: I think this space also like one thing I think

475
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: that also like is important people understand is it like

476
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: like it's not like people aren't fighting this like the

477
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: whole time, I mean even going like even going back

478
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: to the stuff the Seventh Cafrey, like the Seventh Cavalry,

479
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: lose like bores. They lose bells all the time. People

480
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: are fighting constantly. And this is this period determination period

481
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: is also where you see the rise of the American

482
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: Indian movements. Yeah, a lot of these periods can be

483
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: like dovee into more and all of these different things, um.

484
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: And every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy,

485
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: you have resistance, which we are not covering here right now, um,

486
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have

487
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: fought for their rights to land, to um, for their community,

488
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: to being sovereign nations, etcetera. And that's why the federal Indians,

489
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: the federal government, not Federal Indian government, the federal government,

490
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: it has not been able to eradicate us, much to

491
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: their dismay, um UM. And so now I'm going to

492
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: switch into the eraw that we are considered to be in,

493
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: which I have mentioned when I talked about the pendulum

494
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the

495
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: self determination era, um, which began in nineteen sixty two, UM,

496
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: and we have um the right it's characterized with the

497
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: revitalization of tribal entities. So UM, going kind of back

498
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: to when there was the Indian Reorganization Acts that we

499
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: have our tribal councils. UM, there's restoration of some tribes

500
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: under federal recognition who are terminated, again not all of them.

501
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act, so this

502
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: this kind of guaranteed individual Indians UM some rights UM,

503
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: not just characterized by their trib I've also the self

504
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: determination policy, so this is when UM Nixon condemned determination

505
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: policy and gave more control to Indians rather than the

506
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: Bureau of Indian Fairs, which is a federal bureau. And

507
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: just kind of like other policies that UM have given

508
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: the tribes more rights to UM determine for themselves in

509
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: their own trust, their own people, UM to a certain

510
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: degree underneath the federal government as a mess of dependent nations.

511
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: And again I think that we have seen a lot

512
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: more movement, but within the context of being within a

513
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: settler colonial state. UM. It's always I think a possibility

514
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: that the federal Indian government or the federal government I

515
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: keep saying Indian, the federal government will try UM to

516
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: take more and more and I think UM, for instance,

517
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of

518
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: UM hunting rights with states, not even just with the

519
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout

520
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: throughout history but still ongoing UM that attempt to encroach

521
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: on UM tribal treaties UM. And again, treaties are the

522
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: basis of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, that lands

523
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: would have never been succeeded to the United States. And

524
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: so UM there's just this sort of like legal legal

525
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: conundrum I would say, of where all these all treaties

526
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: in the history of the United States with India, with

527
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or

528
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: form UM. But still UM American Indians have to live

529
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: on their reservations instead of having their their land back.

530
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: And so nowadays a lot of movement has been towards

531
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: UM land back. What this means, what is this process?

532
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: And I think it means a lot of different things

533
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: for different people indigenous people because again there's there's seventy

534
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: four federally recognized tribes and so it's not one monolith

535
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: of ideas, the monolith of the beliefs. But but just

536
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: by saying land back, that's like recognition that this is

537
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: our this was our land first, and you're not keeping

538
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 1: your side of the deal and never have been. Could

539
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: you maybe go a bit more into land back with

540
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: the topic, because like specifically, like the past five years,

541
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: it has really gain a lot more like um popularity

542
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: as like a slogan UM. But I think for a

543
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people who chanted and here

544
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: it don't always really know exactly what it means. That

545
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like mixed opinions on what it

546
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: means UM. Of course, on like the more like reactionary side,

547
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: it's like people be like, what you're going to like

548
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: kick white people out of these areas? Like that's kind

549
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: of that's what a lot of like the reactionary takes

550
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: on land back is UM. And I'm sure most people

551
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: are listening to this podcast that's not what they think, UM,

552
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: but they may not really know exactly what it means either. UM.

553
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: They may think it sounds like a good idea, but

554
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: they're not quite sure what it is. Do you mind

555
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: kind of talking about how land back is like developed

556
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: as as an idea and what like what like you

557
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: mean by it personally? At least, Yeah, I think I

558
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: can talk about more about like what I mean by

559
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: it personally and what I've understood it to mean to

560
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: other people, because I think UM land back itself, it

561
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: means like a lot of different things, and I don't

562
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: think that there has been a concrete kind of idea

563
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: of what it means. But I think a lot of

564
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: the movement I want to contextualize it within a lot

565
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: of the sort of act activism that we've seen in

566
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: their recent years. Um SO for instance, no Japple the

567
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 1: Dakota Access Pipeline in two thousand and sixteen, and kind

568
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: of I think that's one of the more recent events

569
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: that have really illustrated on a wide scale, like globally

570
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: about UM indigenous movements, UM sovereignty movements, and especially when

571
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: it comes to environmental justice. But what you saw there

572
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: was encroachment on tribal treaty land within UM that we

573
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: when it had to do with the Dakota Access Pipeline.

574
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Um so, although it didn't cross some of the current

575
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: reservation borders, it was in treaty land, you know that

576
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: kind of thing. The same thing was Stop line three,

577
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: how it encroached on the hunting land and the farmland

578
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: that was not technically in that like residential sholl like

579
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: like um like like not in like the reservation area

580
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: where people live, but it's in the surrounding area that

581
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: is for hunting that is specified in the treaty. So

582
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: people trying to use these loopholes to get the pipelines

583
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 1: through right, right. And so I think what you see

584
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: is a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is

585
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: not new. This has never been new, and a lot

586
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: of tribes can relate to that. And what you've seen

587
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 1: and what I've hoped that I've highlighted throughout this kind

588
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: of very brief overview of federally new policy is the

589
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: different ways that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has

590
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: been attacked in different forms by settler and colonial governments. Um.

591
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: And I think that the day and age that we

592
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: live in now has allowed for um, sort of more

593
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: widespread solidarity, especially over social media. UM. And so when

594
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: we say land back for me, how I interpret it

595
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: as what people mean when they're saying it is recognition

596
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land

597
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 1: that has not been respected. And then I also think

598
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: that it means well, if these treaties aren't being respected,

599
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: then how is this treaty still UM valid? Right? How

600
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: come we aren't getting our land back because you're not

601
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 1: upholding your end of the deal. While some people also

602
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: might mean and recognize that this whole United States government

603
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: is a settler state, right based on the doctrine of discovery,

604
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: which is based on denying tribes and American Indians of

605
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: their rights to this land. UM, So some people might

606
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 1: take it to this whole other context of yeah, well

607
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: maybe this is this is all of our land, etcetera, etcetera.

608
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: But in practice, what does this look like? And I

609
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: think in practice a lot of people UM are seeing

610
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: it with reparations or people buying land back for tribes

611
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and giving it back to tribes. And we have seen

612
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: some of that or um also just people interrupting the

613
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: narrative UM in their own mind of their euro American identity,

614
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: so non non UM American Indians and primarily European settlers

615
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: and their history of their own families taking part of

616
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: the settler colonial process, and how has that um what

617
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: about their lands? There's everyone who UM descends I guess

618
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: from these these settlers, and I want to be specific

619
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: when I'm talking about euro American settlers um, um, and

620
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: how they currently benefit from these systems. And I think

621
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: by saying land back, UM, it's we're able to highlight

622
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: this movement for tribal sovereignty and recognition on a global

623
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 1: scale instead of searching for justice within the quote unquote

624
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: like UM, searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror.

625
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: How how do we expect um for the conqueror to

626
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: be held accountable for all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation,

627
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: et cetera. By taking it more towards a global scale,

628
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: such as no Adapple, highlighting these two other people as

629
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: these are injustices, UM, this is this is ongoing genocide.

630
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: I think that land back has many, like a plethora

631
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: of meanings in the in that sense. Yeah, yeah, I

632
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: hope that answers your question. I myself, UM might use

633
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: it in in some some different ways. UM, because land,

634
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: as we conceive it to be property kind of grew.

635
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: That concept grew in conversation with Euro American Yeah. Absolutely, yeah,

636
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: conceptions of property. So I think that UM, moving forward,

637
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: when we talk about de colonization as a process and

638
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:11,479
Speaker 1: not like a metaphor, UM, that thinking of land back

639
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: not within that whole idea of your American property as well.

640
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of another thing to consider. Yeah, I

641
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: think I think lend back would just be a whole

642
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 1: other thing that will pay someone more qualified than our

643
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: team to talk about on this show. UM. Because Yeah,

644
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,479
Speaker 1: that's definitely, like you know, like all of the things

645
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: we've we've discussed, they deserve their own deep dives by

646
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: people that are uh not me, Robert and Chris. UM.

647
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: Let's see, is there any kind of resources either books

648
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: or stuff online that you would recommend for people wanting

649
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: to learn more about this history? UM? And then any

650
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 1: kind of ways to I don't know, I I guess

651
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: show support in these and these kind of like efforts

652
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: that are going on. Yeah, for sure. UM. So in

653
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: terms of resources and reading, UM, I have read Lorenzo

654
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: Verrocchini's UM Settler book on Settler Colonialism. UM. That's really

655
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: helpful when you're trying to understand that framework in terms

656
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: of getting to know kind of more of the basics

657
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: of like current UM issues impacting tribes. UM. The National

658
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: Congress of American Indians does a lot of work on

659
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: the federal level. UM. If you want to talk more

660
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: about UM kind of lived current lived experiences of American Indians.

661
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: There's illuminatives UM and getting more involved in those as well.

662
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: I think that they have some tips, but I would

663
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: recommend UM everyone getting more familiar with the land that

664
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: they are on currently, the tribes within their states and

665
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: what they can do UM, not just on the local level,

666
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: but on the state level to support tribal sovereignty UM,

667
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: because a lot of issues UH. For instance, I worked

668
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: on the on the state policy level in Washington and

669
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: in Montana, and both of those have a significant amount

670
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: of tribes UM, but you have a lot of legislation

671
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty rights.

672
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: And the thing is is UM as ugly as it

673
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: may be to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous

674
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 1: people's are listened to more within those UM contexts. So

675
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: you need to get more involved on on those levels. UM.

676
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: What sort of like at UM nonprofit organizations UM work

677
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: with your tribes or and what sort of issues are

678
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: impacting tribes And again, these are all gonna probably be

679
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: surrounding travel sovereignty. So maybe it's UM fishing access, hunting rights, etcetera. UM,

680
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good way to make some

681
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: more palate, UM tangible change, to feel like you're doing

682
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself

683
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: and making sure that their voices are at the forefront.

684
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: And that's also applicable to the federal level, especially with

685
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: as you already said, like stop line three in Minnesota,

686
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: contacting your legislators, etcetera, etcetera. And I think also with

687
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: when it comes to one of one of the larger

688
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: issues besides UM, environmental justice for indigenous peoples such as pipelines,

689
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: you have right now missing a murdered indigenous women UM.

690
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: So looking and looking into that UM a little bit

691
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: more and who you can support who's addressing those issues

692
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: along with UM. There is another movement with boarding schools

693
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: right now because there's been a lot of UM bodies

694
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: of young children UM that have been uncovered. And this

695
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,959
Speaker 1: is not an issue that happened a long long time ago,

696
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: like for instance, my grandmother went to a boarding school. UM.

697
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: There's still schools that UM although they're not called boarding

698
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: schools right now that we're boarding schools, but are still

699
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: an operation under different names. Etcetera. UM, so kind of

700
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then also there's a

701
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: UM national UM I think it's called the National Boarding

702
00:48:55,239 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: School Healing Coalition based out of Minnesota, and UM looking

703
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 1: into them and supporting their efforts UM with this issue

704
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: is also a good place to start. UM. Is there

705
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: anywhere that people can find you online? Yes? I don't.

706
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: I don't really use UM social media not much. Yeah, yeah,

707
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: I try not to. I don't know. If I want

708
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:33,919
Speaker 1: people to find me, do not, don't, don't do it.

709
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: It's better that people don't find anyone online. It's better

710
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: we're all just just posting into the void. There's nothing not,

711
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: just just a void. Well that that is I think

712
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: going to wrap up what we have today, Chris do

713
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: want to close us out with a funny bit. I

714
00:49:54,719 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: light your local gas station on fire. Wow? Is christ

715
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 1: killing you? Oh my god? Jeez? Wow? All right, goodbye

716
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: for buddy. What's terrible? My me? This is it could

717
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 1: happen here a podcast about collapse And that's appropriate because

718
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 1: everyone's faith in me as a colleague has collapsed today

719
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: as the result of a series of horrific cluster fox

720
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: on my part I'm late to the meeting. I accidentally

721
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: left the meeting when they started recording just a just

722
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: a complete fucking ship show. Speaking of ship shows, my

723
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: co host Garrison Davis, how are you, Harrison, I'm the

724
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: one that saved this. I had to send the guest

725
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: to the zoom call. I know, I'm not even supposed

726
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: to be on this call. No you're not. You're not

727
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: even supposed to be working today. That's not true. But

728
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: you're not on this call, not in this call. But

729
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: here am saving. This is enough. This is enough witty banter.

730
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: This is a daily podcast. And now let's bring on

731
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: our guest for today, monsignor Alex new House. Alex, how

732
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: are you doing. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

733
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: I feel like I was pulled in off the street,

734
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: just like bundled into a van and then yeah, yeah,

735
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: we uh. You know how people used to get like shanghaied,

736
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: like like captured by it, allegedly allegedly and forced to

737
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: work on on on boats in like San Francisco and whatnot.

738
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: We do that with podcasts. I mean, that is actually

739
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: most of what I've done to the people who work

740
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: on your podcast. I think I think I've had everyone

741
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: from your show on our show now, and it has

742
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: been very much like I'm just pulling them on a string.

743
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, Alex, you are one of the hosts

744
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 1: of the Terrorism Is Bad podcast, a very uh controversially

745
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: named podcast. Uh. And you work at the Middlebury Institute

746
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: of Internet National Studies at Monterey Center of Terrorism, Extremism

747
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: and counter Terrorism Center on not not of that would

748
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: be a different center, very important, very important. Yeah, and

749
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: we're not We're not bringing you on to talk about

750
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: how to make explosively formed penetrators, not this time. That

751
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: is someone else. Yeah, but you are also you were

752
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: also a actual games journalist. Yes, yeah, I got my

753
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: start in this weird space. How do you How do

754
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: you feel about ethics in the game journalism industry? Alex? Uh?

755
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: Always been fine, Like yeah, alright, anyway, that's the end

756
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah. I do want to actually start there, Alex,

757
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: because you and I both have something in common, which

758
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: is that we we got our start writing in a

759
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: field that's wildly different from consulting with like governments on terrorism.

760
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: Like for me, it was I wanted to write like

761
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: Dick jokes on the Internet, and I just like stumbled

762
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: into a bunch of ices propaganda to that most people

763
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: weren't aware of. And and that started me like lecturing

764
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: at universities and ship and for you it was gamer Gates.

765
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of you telling your story a

766
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: little bit to start us off. Yeah, so I was.

767
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: I was during undergrad. I enterned every summer at game

768
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 1: Spot video game website you may have heard of. It's

769
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: one of the two big ones along with I g

770
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: n UM. And when I was doing that, I was

771
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: So this was like right in the at the beginning

772
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: stages of of gamer Gate really popping off. And what

773
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: ended up happening is a lot of the people I

774
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: worked with, a lot of my colleagues and friends were

775
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: just in the blast zone. They were just targeted by

776
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: the absolute ons thought of of harassment. UM, and I

777
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: just had a curiosity started looking into some of those

778
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: people who were who are targeting my friends and colleagues,

779
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: and it ended up being a lot of the people

780
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: that were still talking about today. Uh you know, it

781
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: all all rolls back up to the bright bart metropolitan area,

782
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: if you will. And um, I don't know what are

783
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: the thing that made me want to I mean, obviously

784
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: I've been aware of your work for well, but the

785
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: thing that maybe want to specifically bring you on as

786
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: you started on a new project to create like a

787
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: video game that that will hopefully have an ability to

788
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,479
Speaker 1: help like de radicalize people. And I'm I'm not entirely

789
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: certain like of the details of the project, but I

790
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: think it's a fascinating project because, as as you note

791
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: all too well, a lot of this stuff started in gaming,

792
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: not as a result of anything specifically about gaming, but

793
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: the kind of like socialization that occurs in those spaces

794
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: and the kind of like different communities, and it's been

795
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: like we have going back to the nineties evidence of

796
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: like different Nazi groups on the early Internet, like talking

797
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: about like these are specifically specific groups and subcultures that

798
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: you know will have an easier time radicalizing and whatnot.

799
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm interested in kind of what actually is

800
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: going on with this project, um, and and how you

801
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: think it's going to look at this stage. I understand

802
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: it's pretty early in development right now, so I'm not expecting, like,

803
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, an E three walkthrough, Yeah, our E three,

804
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: I wish we had that. Um. We won a grant

805
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: from DHS and FEMA, their their Terrorism Prevention Grand Program

806
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: this year. We just got awarded it like literally two

807
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: weeks ago, so I have not even started work on

808
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: it at all. But the project will be a collaboration

809
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: between my center and a nonprofit games development company called

810
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: the Eye Thrive Foundation. UH. And basically what we are

811
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: going to do is like build digital scenarios, digital narratives

812
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: that can be engaged with UH within classroom settings. So

813
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: we're targeting high schools for rolling this out UH. And

814
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: the idea is that we're going to give students the

815
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: ability to take on roles that empower them to better

816
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: understand how extremism and radicalization work as mechanisms, which will

817
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: hopefully the idea is that it will it will improve

818
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: resilience and you know, civil integrity and all those fun

819
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: buzzwords within within high school communities. So we're not necessarily

820
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: trying to de radicalize already radicalize people, but we're really

821
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: trying to build community awareness, community resilience to too radicalization pathways.

822
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 1: I mean, this is something I think about constantly because

823
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: I get asked this a lot. You know, I'll get

824
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: I'll get emailed questions from people, sometimes as much detail

825
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: as like hey, I'm like a teacher and here's some

826
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: things this kid in my classes set or something he

827
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: put in an essay, and like, I'm growing really concerned

828
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: about him, and like, I, I, what do I do?

829
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: And my usual answer is, you know, there's a couple

830
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: of people who I respect that I'll try to direct

831
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: them to. But I I don't. I'm pretty good at

832
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: how people get radicalized. It's something I spent a lot

833
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: of time studying. I don't know how how you I

834
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: have trouble figuring out how to break down these pathways

835
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 1: because like, right, the the default for a lot of

836
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: people and for a lot of time has been will

837
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: you d platform? Right? You um, you get them off

838
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: of whatever. And there's there's still I do certainly think

839
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: there's there's utility in that. But there's also you know,

840
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: the toothpaste tube effect, the fact that when you you

841
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: squash these popular areas where they're able to spread them,

842
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: they filter off into increasingly isolated communities that developed new terms,

843
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: they find out ways to hide it, and that actually

844
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: increases you know, it may it may reduce the number

845
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: of people who get radicalized, but the people who remain

846
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: just get more and more extreme because they're even more

847
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: isolated from you know, everyone else, And I don't know,

848
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: how do you do how do you how do you

849
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: break that that radicalization cycle? Like, how do you how

850
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: do you stop that ship before it gets, you know,

851
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: to a tipping point? Yeah, I mean, in general, I'm

852
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: with you, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of de

853
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: radicalization strategies. Uh. And it's it's like an incredibly difficult

854
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: task to to pull someone out who's already going down

855
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: these pathways. And then, like you said, it's also an

856
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult task to make sure that when you are

857
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: disrupting the radicalization networks that they aren't just disappearing off

858
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: to some other corner of the Internet, which we know

859
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: they're doing. Like, one of the reasons why we're we're

860
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: working with a video game video game company is over

861
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: the last few years, we've noticed a big migration into

862
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: video game platforms, especially big social based video game platforms

863
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: like Roadblocks and Minecraft, which are not like, not even

864
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 1: remotely prepared deal with, you know, very well developed sophisticated

865
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: radicalization networks. They have moved over there, h both for

866
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: organization and radicalization reasons. Um, Since mainstream companies have started

867
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: taking more of an interest in deep platforming them. Uh

868
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: and so we're ending up like pretty wildly unprepared for

869
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: this sudden onslought of extremists being right in front of

870
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: kids as they're playing games or you know, teenagers or

871
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: even young adults. So our idea essentially is to use

872
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: that language, the same language that extremists are trying to

873
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: adopt the structures of video games three via the sort

874
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: of interactivity there, to better communicate the impacts of extremism,

875
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: what it looks like, how to identify it, and hopefully

876
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: how to avoid getting you know, falling into the traps

877
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: that are laid uh for for unsuspecting people. One of

878
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: the issues and I'm curiously thoughts on this because we

879
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: we we talk a lot about, like I think people

880
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: have become increasingly aware of how bad Facebook in particulars

881
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,439
Speaker 1: is a problem with this. It's it's really well real

882
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: a lot of the boogaloo movement to and now this

883
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: stuff is coming out about like the data Facebook has

884
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: had on just and this isn't this isn't this is

885
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: adjacent to radicalization, Um, the mental impact that it's been

886
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: having on teenagers right, like the just how bad it

887
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: is for people, and UM, I'm wondering, like how do

888
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: you scale this stuff? I guess is the question like

889
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: how do you actually how do you make the social

890
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: internet less dangerous? Yeah? I mean that's that's going to

891
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: be extremely tough. And we are even starting very very small,

892
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: like we're building We're building on a narrative platform to

893
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,959
Speaker 1: target three high schools right now. Um. But the hope

894
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: is that ultimately what we can do is build a

895
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: tool set and and a platform like literally a game

896
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: platform that can be used by high school teachers in

897
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: high school classes throughout the country or throughout the world. Um.

898
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: The idea will be to hopefully make a new sort

899
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: of package of different methods and interactive experiences that can

900
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: be reused into the future. But it is one of

901
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: the big open questions that we will hopefully come to

902
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: some sort of answer for throughout the project about how

903
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: do we actually scale this up? Um? But you know,

904
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: in general, it is again like one of the biggest

905
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: open questions right now. One of the reasons why I's

906
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 1: so skeptical of a lot of d RAD and CBE

907
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: techniques is they try to go for scale about effectiveness, um,

908
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: when in reality, one of the best and only de

909
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: radicalization pathways that we know of involves people that you

910
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: know and I know going out and meeting with these

911
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: people one on one and having intensive, frequent communications with them. So, um,

912
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: there's as far as we know, there's not a good

913
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: answer right now. This is a huge place of research

914
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: right now because we should just straight up do not

915
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: understand how to scale up um radicalization, prevention and de radicalization.

916
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: I mean in what you know, what you're trying to do,

917
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: and like reaching kids in high school in something it's

918
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: meant they're meant to be consuming while they're in school

919
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: is even such an additional challenge because I think you

920
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: and I are both young enough to at least remember

921
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: that like almost nothing that you put before kids in

922
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: that context in a school gets through. I can. I can.

923
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: I can think about like anti drug programs and stuff

924
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and how ineffective they were.

925
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: There was I had one one effective anti drug like

926
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: speech by a teacher and it was just a teacher

927
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: who whose son was part of this this There was

928
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: this one night and plane where like six kids indeed

929
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,439
Speaker 1: on heroin. It was there was big Rolling Stone article

930
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: about it was a very famous moment, and her son

931
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: was one of the kids who nearly died and she

932
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: was and she like just explained like physically what happened

933
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: to him and begged us not to do heroin, And

934
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: that actually did stick with me. I've never never shot

935
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: up anything, um, but you know, like the a lot

936
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: of it doesn't work. And I think part of why

937
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 1: it's this thing I talked about when I tried to

938
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 1: explain like why isis propaganda was so effective, it's the

939
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: it feels more authentic than the than the counter narrative,

940
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: right the counter narrati of because it's it's usually focus grouped,

941
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: it's coming as the result of like some sort of

942
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: government initiative, a bunch of people working in together. It

943
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: feels focus grouped as opposed to there's something inherently more

944
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: compelling about something that just like feels like somebody who

945
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: really gave a ship, cares a lot put this thing together,

946
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: even if it's terrible. And I that strikes me as

947
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: a really because if you're going to be scaling something

948
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: and trying to reach a lot of people, it's going

949
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: to have to be something that is put together at

950
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: scale by an organization. And how do you. I mean,

951
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: I know this must be on your mind as you're

952
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to craft this thing. I'm

953
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: just interested in your thoughts on that. Really, yeah, I

954
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: mean that exact challenge challenges what led us to proposing

955
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: the project project that we are, so the idea behind it,

956
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: or the the impetus behind what we did what we

957
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: proposed is, um, the exact problem of students just don't

958
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: listen to people in whether that's anti drug programs or

959
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: anything like that. Often, my uh my uh feeling about

960
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: it is they are often resistant to it because it's

961
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: very negative. It's very don't do this, don't do this.

962
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm setting up boundaries for for kids and analysts to

963
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: act within. It's all very declaratory, very you know, commanding. Um,

964
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: there's no there's no sense of treating kids like people

965
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: who have control, who have interests, who have motivations. It's

966
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 1: all attempting to restrict them. And so the idea is

967
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 1: that we're going to attempt to build a game platform

968
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: that actually empower students to operate within roles that have control,

969
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: that that have something to say, to give them, voices

970
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: to give them um and that sort of feeling of

971
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: being an established UM person within a within a certain scenario. Um.

972
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: The way that I've been thinking about it is that

973
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: we're basically merging video games with like the structure of

974
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: a model you in conference or something like that. Hopefully

975
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: we'll be a little less nerdy than Model U in conferences.

976
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: But that's the idea of giving people power to make decisions. Uh,

977
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: and and treat them like actual, you know, operating humans. Yeah,

978
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: I uh, I'm wondering do you have any kind of

979
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: models that you're looking at when you think of like

980
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: something that you see is is kind of worth I

981
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: don't emulating maybe the wrong word, but like, oh, these

982
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: people I think got it right and and this was effective?

983
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: Like or is this really a situation where you feel

984
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: like we're kind of in the fucking wilderness here. There's

985
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: not a lot of great models for what's effective. We

986
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: are very much in the wilderness. What I was expecting

987
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: you to say, Like, so much of CV and d

988
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: rad work of the last ten years has been directly

989
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: towards trying to essentially recreate that, like the Dare model

990
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: or the anti drug model, just in a different field. Um.

991
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: And so we're going to be pulling from scenario builders

992
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: and like mall un and debate and like all these

993
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: different models that seem to at least work to get

994
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: kids engage with like operating that sort of situation. But

995
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: it is going to be pretty I mean, at least

996
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: from what I understands, going be pretty new. We're going

997
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: to be out there really flying blind for a lot

998
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: of it UM, but we will. You know, we have

999
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: a pilot phase built in to try to bay to

1000
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: test this with with UM some of the students were

1001
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 1: incorporating students and instructors in the actual creation development stage,

1002
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: so that'll be another hopefully good part of this will

1003
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: we'll give some students experience with the game development process,

1004
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: which I think will help engage them as well. That

1005
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: strikes me as a particularly good idea of like giving

1006
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: and also just giving them some agency. So it's not

1007
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: like this is a thing that you are forced to consume,

1008
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: Like this is the thing that you can like learn

1009
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: something from. I think that's that's very important. I'm interested

1010
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: in how you see how you see this because like

1011
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: again we kind of both got in around the same time.

1012
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: Gamer Gate is when I started paying attention to radicalization

1013
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: to how do you think it's changed since then? How

1014
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: do you think like the nature of of how, particularly

1015
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: like younger people are being radicalized is changed. And I

1016
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 1: guess I'm also interested because I get the feeling that

1017
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: back then it was mostly younger people getting radicalized and

1018
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 1: that's no longer the case. Just as we're talking, I

1019
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: just came across the video on Twitter of a group

1020
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: of anti vax protesters chasing parents and children away from

1021
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 1: an elementary school and screaming at them that they're raping

1022
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 1: their kids with a vaccine. So clearly the problem is expanded.

1023
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, And honestly one of the things that

1024
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: keeps me up at night is when we start, if

1025
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, knocking movies are able to roll this out

1026
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: to more schools, we're going to run into some probably

1027
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: very resistant parents who have radicalized. Yum. Yeah, I mean

1028
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: the big one is, like what you said, like the

1029
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: radicalization demographics have vastly expanded to incorporate so many more

1030
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: different types of people, so many more ages and even

1031
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: ethnicities and genders. Um. But what we do know is

1032
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: that the hardcore of the of the violent extremists are

1033
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: still targeting adolescents. Um. We know accelerationists, for instance, hang

1034
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: out and try to essentially black pill about of teens,

1035
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: especially autistic teens, specially teens with mental health issues, UH,

1036
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 1: and bring them into a more violent, more accelerationist posture. UM.

1037
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think that has sort of stayed

1038
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: constant throughout all of this. One of the big UH

1039
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: changes has been platforms. You know, ten years ago, it

1040
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: was much easier for a neo Nazi to operate openly

1041
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: on YouTube or Facebook, but that has thankfully changed. UM.

1042
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 1: But they have spread out into like I mentioned earlier,

1043
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: they've spread out into video games. They spread out into

1044
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 1: other sorts of platforms where the social aspect isn't necessarily

1045
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 1: the first part of the platform, but rather a secondary

1046
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: aspect to it, and they try to engage UM adolescence

1047
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: on their own turf on you know, in a Roadblocks

1048
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: game or in a in a video game forum. Out there,

1049
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: it's not even enough to say it feels like the

1050
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,439
Speaker 1: task of reducing radicalization or or not not even mentioned

1051
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: pulling it back, just stopping the prod. This feels not

1052
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: just like whack a mole, but like whack a mole

1053
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: when you're surrounded by moles. UM and I guess that

1054
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 1: is the thing that keeps me up at night the

1055
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 1: most too, is that like the problem has gotten because

1056
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: of how social media scales, I think, in large part,

1057
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 1: has gotten so much worse than it ever was. And

1058
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,440
Speaker 1: the I see these crowds of adults, you know, assembling

1059
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: in you know, places like Los Angeles and showing up

1060
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: outside of schools to her ask people, and like, I

1061
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 1: don't know what, I don't know what to do about that.

1062
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: Like part of me thinks, um, part of me thinks

1063
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 1: that the only effective long term answer is to mobilize

1064
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: a larger number of people two show up to you know,

1065
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: not necessarily confront those people, but make them make them

1066
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: feel outnumbered, and maybe they'll stop, and that will start

1067
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: a process where they they alter their thinking. Like I'm

1068
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: thinking kind of back to in some aspects of the

1069
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 1: civil rights movement here right where you would have these

1070
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 1: people show up at schools just try to stop integration

1071
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: and whatnot, and they would be opposed often by by

1072
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: larger groups that they would see the size of the

1073
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: marches in the street. And like, I don't know, I

1074
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: don't even know if it works that way anymore. Like

1075
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: knowing that you know, tend to one, people think your

1076
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: stance on vaccines is stupid, and they're willing to show

1077
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: up to like yell at you if that would do anything.

1078
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 1: But I don't know what. I don't know what's going

1079
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 1: to do. Like I guess I'm asking you, like, can

1080
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: you have you figured this out? Because I don't know

1081
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: what the funk to do? Um, But it's it's it's

1082
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: not you can't we can't close our obviously you're someone

1083
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 1: who's trying to confront it directly, but we certainly can't

1084
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 1: keep ourselves like just pretend it's not going to get worse, right, No, totally,

1085
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: And um, you know, I often feel like it's almost

1086
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: too far gone. And you know, frequently I worry that

1087
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 1: we've already passed some sort of you know, point of

1088
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: no return on RODO causation, exploitation of social media. But

1089
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: one of the other things I've also recognized is that

1090
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: when you're in a space that is dedicated to one

1091
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:10,839
Speaker 1: type of confronting h one one method of confronting extremism,

1092
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: very often they will forget about, or de prioritize, or

1093
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 1: or even ignore the other types the other methods. And

1094
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: one of the tasks before us, I think, before we

1095
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: throw up our hands and give up, is trying to

1096
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:28,680
Speaker 1: tie together all of the different facets of resisting extremism,

1097
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: from the hardcore confrontational doxing and showing up in the

1098
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 1: streets counterprotesting, which I think is an essential part of it,

1099
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: to UM working as hard as we can to try

1100
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: to get tech companies to to realize what's going on UH,

1101
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: and then also on the educational side, like what we're

1102
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: doing with this with this project UM. Some of the

1103
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: things that make me at least a little bit optimistic

1104
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: is that there is obviously inertia, both intentional and unintentional

1105
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 1: at tech companies, but frankly, they are still extremely far

1106
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: behind in understand adding how to even do D platforming

1107
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: on their platforms, how to even identify WoT D platform

1108
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 1: like the majority of tech companies are still making contom

1109
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: moderation decisions on a piece by piece basis, specifically looking

1110
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: at content. Very few of them are doing actor analysis,

1111
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: very few of them are doing several network analysis. Very

1112
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,719
Speaker 1: few of them are looking at even the links between

1113
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 1: like off platform violence and on platform content like it's

1114
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,719
Speaker 1: the They are still very much in the stone ages

1115
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 1: when it comes to contom moderation. And that's so so

1116
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 1: key when I think about like what actually would reduce

1117
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:39,639
Speaker 1: the harm that these platforms are doing at scale. It's

1118
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: focusing on the actors um and and not just like

1119
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:45,760
Speaker 1: the individual actors, which is part of the patterns that

1120
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 1: let you tell whether or not someone is like that

1121
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:49,799
Speaker 1: same actor who's kind of like putting on a different

1122
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 1: hat so to speak. Um, are you aware of like,

1123
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,679
Speaker 1: is there any I because I have not seen that

1124
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 1: happen yet. I haven't seen Facebook take that seriously. Um,

1125
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 1: and I have I have spent some time there. I

1126
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 1: haven't seen certainly haven't seen Twitter take that seriously. Um,

1127
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: I haven't really seen. I don't believe TikTok is like

1128
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're just um, like you said, they're

1129
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 1: going after they're taking it on a piece bay piece basis,

1130
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: which is never there's too many pieces. That's never going

1131
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 1: to handle the problem. Yeah, I mean take stock is

1132
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 1: crawling right now. They're in their infancy. Um, they don't.

1133
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: They don't have a data sharing uh, any sort of

1134
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,719
Speaker 1: data sharing systems set up for for researchers or anything

1135
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 1: like that. Yet I've seen optimistic signals. So I think

1136
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 1: Facebook's approach to q and On and boogleoo movement over

1137
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:43,759
Speaker 1: the past year has been probably the best, the most

1138
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 1: positive development we've seen on the content moderation front because

1139
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 1: they took an actual network based approach to it. It

1140
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: was hands strung by a variety of different policy decisions,

1141
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 1: but it was still from like a from like a

1142
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: mechanics standpoint, the most sophisticated one any of the comedies

1143
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,839
Speaker 1: is actually talked about openly. Uh and YouTube has followed

1144
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,639
Speaker 1: in their path. They've started taking more network approaches um.

1145
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: They they've taken moderation action against q and on on

1146
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: a similar basis. But the thing that I want tech

1147
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: companies to start looking at is applying a lot of

1148
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,759
Speaker 1: the techniques they're using for disinformation and in info ops

1149
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 1: work to extremism and radicalization. It's very similar, but right

1150
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: now it seems to be just easier politically or just

1151
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 1: there further along with doing the large scale network analysis

1152
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 1: approaches on this info um like Twitter is doing a

1153
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: lot of that, but it's all on information operations and

1154
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 1: take info yeah as opposed to yeah people Yeah. And

1155
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 1: I I worry too because I'm paying attention to kind

1156
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 1: of you know, you have this whistle blower from Facebook,

1157
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 1: and how that's being politicized right, how the right is

1158
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,960
Speaker 1: kind of coming at this from a they're trying to say, like,

1159
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 1: as Ben Shapira said, they're trying to to UM the

1160
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 1: sensor alternative media voices and the like. And I I

1161
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 1: worry tremendously about the politicization because number one, it means

1162
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: that at best we've got like three years to get

1163
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: something together before you know, who knows whose wides up

1164
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,760
Speaker 1: in the White House next. But also if it's just

1165
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 1: this thing of like veering between who gets who gets

1166
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: paid attention to UM based on like what is politically

1167
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: viable for Facebook, we're never going to solve the problem.

1168
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: And I I think I agree with you for the

1169
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: most part on the Facebook's response to the boogle boo movement.

1170
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I think the problem was that

1171
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: by the time they developed a functional set of responses

1172
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 1: to it UM, it had metastasized, it had grown, it

1173
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: had grown strong enough to exist on its own, and

1174
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people have gotten exposed. What do you

1175
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: think is the actual is reasonable to expect in terms

1176
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,719
Speaker 1: of response time from these people, because with boogle Ooo stuff,

1177
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 1: it was about I want to say, about three months

1178
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 1: be well, no, it was more like five. It was

1179
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: about five months that it had from like December of

1180
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen was when I started really noticing it. And

1181
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: then like you know, May at the when when stuff

1182
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 1: really kicked off with the George Floyd protests, when you

1183
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: started to see action taking the tail in the May. Yeah,

1184
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: so I guess that I'm wondering, like, what is the

1185
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 1: half life of this ship? Like how quickly do you

1186
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 1: need to crack down on this stuff before it gets

1187
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 1: to be impossible to contain? Uh? Yeah, I mean that's

1188
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:34,560
Speaker 1: the biggest limiting factor on that effectiveness of uh contemnation

1189
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: in general, but also in particular these new approaches that

1190
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: the tech companies seem to be experimenting with. UM, my

1191
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 1: understanding is that part of the So I'm not I'm

1192
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: not defending Facebook by any stretch. I'm not here to

1193
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 1: be the Facebook rallying crew. But my understanding is that

1194
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: they literally did develop an entirely separate approach to taking

1195
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: down the biblie movements. So that explains at least a

1196
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,640
Speaker 1: little bit of the delay. But hopefully, you know, my

1197
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,880
Speaker 1: optimistic side hopes that they will be able to apply

1198
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: it more quickly in the future. Um The problem is

1199
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: a lot of the network approaches that have been developed

1200
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 1: are have like these very high thresholds for attribution. So

1201
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 1: it has to be like a dedicated network that has

1202
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: crossed the line into criminal activity and is actively calling

1203
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: for you know, political violence on like a network level,

1204
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 1: and that like we all know that that isn't that

1205
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,920
Speaker 1: is like the end goal or the end point in

1206
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: exactly right, Like that is the terminal point of the

1207
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: development of these extremist networks. So you know, we're one

1208
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:42,680
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that we're working on

1209
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out a way to convince tech

1210
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 1: companies that you can and should take action earlier before

1211
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: it reaches that point. And it's going to be a

1212
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,720
Speaker 1: mosaic of things. It's going to be combining violent extremism

1213
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 1: with hate speech, with even like c SAM child exploitation stuff,

1214
01:16:55,720 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 1: with um all, you know, criminal criminal conspiracy network, Paul seas.

1215
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: All of those things need to be sort of thought

1216
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 1: of as pieces in a single, big, overarching umbrella that

1217
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: we can use to take down networks earlier on. But

1218
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's a. It's a. That's one of the

1219
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 1: biggest tasks is just convincing them to think about it

1220
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: much much earlier. Yeah. Um, all right, well let's I

1221
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 1: think most of what I wanted to get into today.

1222
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you really wanted to like, kind

1223
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: of talk about while you're here? Um, those are the

1224
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,759
Speaker 1: those are the big ones for sure. We will hopefully

1225
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: have more to talk about very soon. And how we're

1226
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: approaching this project. Um, it's going to be a pretty

1227
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:40,680
Speaker 1: big project. It will take two years to implement, but um,

1228
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 1: we're pretty excited to see what comes out of it. Yeah. Um, Well,

1229
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: people can find you on Twitter at it's just at

1230
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 1: alex new house, right, alex B new house, alex B

1231
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: new house. Yeah, at alex b new House. Um, they

1232
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 1: can check out where you work at seat E, C, M, I,

1233
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: I s UM and yeah, I'm I'm excited to see. Well,

1234
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: maybe we'll have you back on when you UMU, when

1235
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: you you you actually put out the game. But I'm

1236
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 1: really interested in looking at that. Oh yeah, it was

1237
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 1: the last thing you brewed. Oh, I brewed a red

1238
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: I p A and I'm currently brewing three gallons of

1239
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: apple cider. Oh. Nice. We just um, we juiced ten

1240
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: gallons of apples and pears that I just kegged after

1241
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: almost four weeks of fermentation that I know. I've been

1242
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:29,920
Speaker 1: I've been looking at I've been looking at apple mills

1243
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 1: like apple presses, and yeah I should I should just

1244
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 1: buy one, And we found one to rent. Um. So

1245
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: it's just like I don't know, thirty bucks for the day. Uh,

1246
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 1: and we just gathered up all the apples on property.

1247
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: But it's it was rab definitely very soon. Yeah, we

1248
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 1: were juicing all of the apples the day that um

1249
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 1: tiny got shot at that protest in Olympia. So it's

1250
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 1: just like looking at the Twitter saying there's been a

1251
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: shooting into protests and be like, yeah, I'm glad I'm

1252
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 1: not working today. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not working today,

1253
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: afternoon press and this is this is a more enjoyable

1254
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: use of my time right now. All right, Well, Alex,

1255
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on. Thank you for

1256
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 1: what you're doing, and thank you all for listening. Go

1257
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: with you know whoever, whatever deity up to you, it

1258
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 1: could happen here, Mike is possibly anyway, I'm Robert Evans, Uh,

1259
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,519
Speaker 1: you know who I am because you're listening to this

1260
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: show unless you stumbled upon this having never heard of

1261
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 1: the internet before, in which case this is a show

1262
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: about how things are kind of falling apart, and we

1263
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:45,680
Speaker 1: also try to talk every now and then about how

1264
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: to maybe put them back together a little bit. My

1265
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: co host is Garrison Davis. Garrison, say hello to the people. Hello, people.

1266
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: I'd also like you to say hello to Sean Hi Shan. Yeah,

1267
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 1: there's a Sean somewhere up there. There's probably a few shots. Yeah,

1268
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 1: it was at least one or two. Garrison, What do we?

1269
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,799
Speaker 1: What do we? What do we? What? What? What are we? Well,

1270
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 1: we're finally doing something I've been wanting to do for

1271
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 1: a while, is branching off into kind of covering different

1272
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,599
Speaker 1: parts of like media and culture UM that kind of

1273
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: relate to all of these topics UM. I know both

1274
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 1: both me, but both me a little bit and and

1275
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: Robert more so have worked for or have have written

1276
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 1: for UM like an online investigative journalism website called belling

1277
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 1: Cat that deals in open source UM like research and

1278
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're big fans of that

1279
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 1: Belling Cat. I've talked with a few of the other

1280
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: people is a game called Her Story, which is a

1281
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,719
Speaker 1: video game that has maybe one of the better better

1282
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:54,479
Speaker 1: depictions of kind of open source um investigations. Uh. It's

1283
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very it's a very good game.

1284
01:20:56,320 --> 01:20:58,639
Speaker 1: I highly recommended. I played it a few years ago.

1285
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 1: It was lovely and I recently Uh well, originally, when

1286
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 1: I bought Her Story, I bought both that game and

1287
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 1: like a spiritual sequel called Telling Lies, which I did

1288
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,880
Speaker 1: did not play for a while because I was too busy. Um.

1289
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: And then I went to the Earth First Gathering this

1290
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,240
Speaker 1: summer and I and I came back and I had

1291
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 1: some free time, so I played Telling Lies, And because

1292
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:25,679
Speaker 1: of the continent of that game, I found it really interesting.

1293
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:28,599
Speaker 1: Because I'm not gonna spoil tons of it, I think

1294
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 1: you should play it for yourself, and part of it

1295
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: is solving the mystery on your own. But but part

1296
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:38,639
Speaker 1: of it does take place to like green environmentalism activism setting,

1297
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 1: and it has one of the more honest depictions of

1298
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:49,120
Speaker 1: environments like that. So I have we are we are

1299
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 1: graced with bringing on the creator of both Her Story

1300
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 1: and Telling Lies. Uh. Sam Barlow, Hello, Hey, exciting to

1301
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: be here. Lovely interest yeah, I I am. I'm very

1302
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: excited to talk with you. These games are some of

1303
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 1: my favorite things. Um. First off, I guess I would

1304
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,640
Speaker 1: just like to kind of talk about your inspiration for

1305
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 1: this type of detective game, because it is it is

1306
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:18,759
Speaker 1: unique to every other kind of investigative game out there. UM.

1307
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 1: And it's you know, very much grounded in open source research. Um.

1308
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: And like using computers in the real world. What what

1309
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,759
Speaker 1: kind of got you onto that kind of storytelling concept?

1310
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there was a whole bunch of

1311
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: things that all kind of sparked off at once, Like

1312
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 1: when I made Her Story. This was my first independent

1313
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,679
Speaker 1: video game. So I've been making video games for ten

1314
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: plus years, um, working on other people's franchises, more traditional

1315
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,040
Speaker 1: things kind of when I started out working on like

1316
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: Nicolas Cage movie tients and extreme sports games and all

1317
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 1: these kind of things. Um. But at some point I

1318
01:22:57,280 --> 01:22:59,320
Speaker 1: got to work on the Silent Hell franchise, which is

1319
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 1: this this very cool psychological horror franchise, and it's one

1320
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 1: of the certainly at that point in time, it was

1321
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 1: one of the few kind of established gaming franchises that

1322
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 1: had a story that was interesting and took place in

1323
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: the real world and had characters and things, So kind

1324
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 1: of from that point, I was really digging into kind

1325
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 1: of a lifelong interest in storytelling, especially what we can

1326
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: do with it interactively, and continue to be frustrated somewhat

1327
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: by working for these bigger publishers, and at one point

1328
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:35,080
Speaker 1: I worked for three years I was directing and writing

1329
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: this this big budget video game that got canceled, and

1330
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 1: that kind of gave me a moment to kind of

1331
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:44,720
Speaker 1: sit and think, like, what what do I want to do?

1332
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 1: Do I want to get on board another of these

1333
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: big video games. I was very frustrated at the kind

1334
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: of incremental change that you see in the kind of

1335
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: bigger budget video game space. It feels like things happened

1336
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 1: very slowly, which can be frustrating. So I was kind

1337
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 1: of looking around. This was when like iPhones, people gaming

1338
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 1: on their iPhones and stuff was kind of starting to

1339
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:09,800
Speaker 1: blow up. The fact that you could now distribute a

1340
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:14,680
Speaker 1: game individually digitally and reach an audience was sort of

1341
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 1: changing the landscape. So I kind of felt like I

1342
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:21,120
Speaker 1: should get into that. And so at its conception her

1343
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: story was was me going, what are all the things

1344
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 1: I've wanted to do that that I wasn't able to

1345
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 1: do when I was working with these bigger budgets, with

1346
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 1: these more established kind of gaming templates. So from the

1347
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: get go it was I wanted to deal with characters

1348
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:40,680
Speaker 1: that essentially lived in the real world, which is a

1349
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 1: hard pitch. You know, if you're asking for big bucks,

1350
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: every video game has to essentially be about superhero. It

1351
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 1: needs to be some kind of wish fulfillment for a

1352
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: teenage boy is generally what people are asking for. And

1353
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 1: the big thing with her story was subtext as someone's

1354
01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: interesting storytelling. I was always trying to post how important

1355
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 1: subtext is and the idea that there is. You know,

1356
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 1: there are layers to a narrative that you're not spelling

1357
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: out for the audience that they're going to extract through

1358
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 1: performance or through whatever um And that was always a

1359
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 1: hard sell when you were kind of dealing with these

1360
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: kind of a bigger companies that had a very simple

1361
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:20,600
Speaker 1: idea of what their audience was. So I wanted to

1362
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 1: prove that the audience was actually smarter than we were

1363
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 1: giving them credit for, and that if you gave more

1364
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 1: control to them, if you gave more of the kind

1365
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: of work of piecing these stories together that that would

1366
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:35,519
Speaker 1: be not not just something they could do, but which

1367
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 1: would actually be more interesting and more personal and um,

1368
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, and with her story, I had a kind

1369
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 1: of lifelong love of like crime fiction and slightly more

1370
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:49,360
Speaker 1: kind of Gothic leaning crime fiction. And so it's like, right,

1371
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to create a video game which is in

1372
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 1: that world and which kind of breaks a lot of

1373
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 1: the established rules of how you might tell a story. UM.

1374
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of that I was pulling from, Yeah,

1375
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:07,639
Speaker 1: my love of some of them more kind of avant

1376
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 1: gode literally stuff interesting pieces of kind of movies and things.

1377
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:13,600
Speaker 1: But it was, it was, it was pulling from a

1378
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 1: lot of different kind of storytelling traditions and ending up

1379
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:19,559
Speaker 1: in this this interesting place where, like you say, it's

1380
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:23,760
Speaker 1: kind of a game experience where you're essentially researching the

1381
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 1: story yourself and kind of putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah.

1382
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:29,440
Speaker 1: For for people who don't know, it's like you're basically

1383
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: on a virtual desktop, um, and you're sorting through like

1384
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 1: a hard drive full of footage and the versatility of

1385
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:39,639
Speaker 1: the game, and you know, people learning how to use

1386
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 1: like search terms, right, just like people try to use

1387
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 1: like um in open source it's called like using like

1388
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:49,800
Speaker 1: Google operators. It's the same kind of the same thing. Um,

1389
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 1: But also there's like the other side of things. I

1390
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 1: think a belling Cat wrote an article about your game

1391
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 1: where they like made like a Python script to scan

1392
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 1: all of the videos for specific keywords and put them

1393
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 1: into like different folders and files. So it's like you

1394
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:03,040
Speaker 1: can do the thing where you just like search it,

1395
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: but you could like take this to a ridiculous level.

1396
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: You're like breaking the game open and doing it like

1397
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 1: you're actually like investigating this and you need to be

1398
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: very quick. Um. So I think her story is is

1399
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 1: a lovely intro to this type of game concept. And

1400
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: then for Telling Lies, you kind of changed, you change

1401
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 1: some things with it. Um, you made like I guess,

1402
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: I guess like an expansion would be the way I

1403
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 1: would describe it for how it like it takes the

1404
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,759
Speaker 1: same concept and pushes it further. And I think watching

1405
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 1: these things now, it is very different after being like

1406
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:38,840
Speaker 1: two years on Zoom right, I'm I'm sure I'm sure

1407
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 1: you've heard this from other people as well as like

1408
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, because because because of how Telling Lies operates,

1409
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 1: it's like a lot of it is well you open

1410
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 1: the game because you're basically cracking open and then I

1411
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 1: say hard drive. So all of it is video from

1412
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:56,040
Speaker 1: like webcams and stuff. Um, so you know, watching people

1413
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 1: talking to their computer camera like this after spending years

1414
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:04,040
Speaker 1: on Zoom definitely hits harder. I guess it was one

1415
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 1: of those things where so when we were first working

1416
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 1: on this and conceiving of it, which was I don't know,

1417
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: maybe and something like that, Um, there was a leap, right,

1418
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:19,320
Speaker 1: and as a storyteller you allow yourself sometimes to take

1419
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:21,400
Speaker 1: that one leap that the audience will take with you.

1420
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:24,200
Speaker 1: And the leap there was like these people are using

1421
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 1: video chat a lot. But I mean and as I

1422
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,120
Speaker 1: was starting to put it together, I would start noticing

1423
01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: people around that time doing video chat in the street

1424
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,680
Speaker 1: on their phones, which was something I was not used

1425
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: to sing And I was like, oh, ship, maybe this

1426
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 1: is not too big of a leap. But yeah, I

1427
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 1: think I think it was The Virgin or somebody ran

1428
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 1: an article that was like telling Lies is still a

1429
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 1: great game mid pandemic, it's just real hard to play

1430
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 1: now that like this Zoom thing is our lives. That

1431
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that was that was a big thing.

1432
01:28:58,080 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 1: I was interested in at the time, was like, what

1433
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 1: is this doing to us? What is communicating over the internet,

1434
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 1: how does that change how conversations and and things happen,

1435
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:09,960
Speaker 1: And was kind of looking into some of the research there.

1436
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 1: So that, Yeah, that was wild. Was was was kind

1437
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:16,640
Speaker 1: of living in that world for several years putting the

1438
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:21,000
Speaker 1: game out and then spending two years on zoom Calls. Yeah.

1439
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean in a few ways, I think the game

1440
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 1: has aged very well because of that, and because the

1441
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,840
Speaker 1: way people. People are more used to interacting with the

1442
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:33,080
Speaker 1: computer in that format now, so when they're you know,

1443
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:35,920
Speaker 1: trying to search for these like hundreds of video files,

1444
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 1: I think they can understand it better. Um. So in

1445
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:40,720
Speaker 1: some ways I think it's not It's not necessarily a

1446
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 1: bad thing. Um But yeah, let's see. So I think, well,

1447
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit about kind of the

1448
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 1: influences for kind of the surveillance aspect, because like her

1449
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:56,559
Speaker 1: story is filmed in like a police um interrogation room

1450
01:29:56,600 --> 01:30:00,320
Speaker 1: for based basically basically the whole thing, whereas this pulls

1451
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 1: video footage of people like in private moments essentially. Of course,

1452
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: this was like after like the Snowden stuff and after

1453
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 1: all of the other kind of after the you know,

1454
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 1: surveillance became a bigger talking point. Um, but what what

1455
01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:16,360
Speaker 1: got you to decide you wanted to kind of revolve

1456
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: the game around this concept of internet surveillance. And then

1457
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, different three letter agencies kind of fighting each

1458
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:26,160
Speaker 1: other a little bit. So I think it was two things.

1459
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:30,600
Speaker 1: One was in making her story and making lots of

1460
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,840
Speaker 1: decisions somewhat intuitively kind of when it was finished and

1461
01:30:34,240 --> 01:30:36,080
Speaker 1: it was a big success and I looked back on it,

1462
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 1: and then kind of when a little bit of time

1463
01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:41,040
Speaker 1: and passed, I then had this very different relationship where

1464
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 1: I had forgotten that I was the person who had

1465
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:45,759
Speaker 1: made it and so could have opinions about it. And

1466
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:49,480
Speaker 1: I was really interested in how that that game established

1467
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 1: a level of intimacy with the main character that Viva players,

1468
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 1: that you're seeing being interrogated, despite the fact that it

1469
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 1: is happening through a computer desktop, despite the fact that

1470
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:01,400
Speaker 1: there's none of what tradition really you know that the

1471
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 1: agency you were traditionally having a video game, which you know,

1472
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: conventional logic would be that's how you would establish the

1473
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:09,240
Speaker 1: idea that this person is alive and that you're in

1474
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:13,479
Speaker 1: contact with them. But the act of like digging into

1475
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 1: all this video footage of Eva and seeing her on

1476
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 1: screen talking essentially at you created this this interesting amount

1477
01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:22,479
Speaker 1: of intimacy that a lot of people responded to. So

1478
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's one of the things that

1479
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 1: is interesting to me to take further, because it's it's

1480
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: very rare that a video game creates this sensation of

1481
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 1: kind of intimacy or of getting close to or understanding people.

1482
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 1: And then it was Snowden m I think it was

1483
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:45,280
Speaker 1: one of the the early reports UM from from all

1484
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 1: the various things that came out via Snowden. There was

1485
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 1: a particular UM operation in the UK, which I think

1486
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 1: was called Optic Nerve or something, and the idea there

1487
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:59,560
Speaker 1: was that they were spying on everyone's Internet traffic. And

1488
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:01,280
Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit easier to do that

1489
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:05,760
Speaker 1: in the UK than it is elsewhere. And this one

1490
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:08,760
Speaker 1: particular operation, I remember there was a PowerPoint slide that

1491
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:13,360
Speaker 1: was leaked that was like their internal presentation which proved that,

1492
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: like in any leaked government PowerPoint will be the worst

1493
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:19,760
Speaker 1: power point you've ever seen, like the clip art and

1494
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: just terrible nous, right um. But in this scheme, what

1495
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:26,639
Speaker 1: they did, and this blew my mind. Was for a period,

1496
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 1: if I think it was two years, every single video

1497
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 1: chat that went through Yahoo in the UK was captured

1498
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 1: and recorded, and they had this issue, which I think

1499
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 1: is if you want to talk about surveillance kind of

1500
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:46,320
Speaker 1: post nine eleven, the big problem with surveillance and the

1501
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 1: extent to which is now used, is like what you

1502
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: do with all this data? Like it's it's it's just

1503
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: too much. So they they were capturing all this Yahoo

1504
01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: video chat and attempting to add the metadata and sort it,

1505
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:04,240
Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting because that's kind of, to

1506
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,479
Speaker 1: some extent kind of how something like her story worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

1507
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 1: And the biggest issue they had, and they put up

1508
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: this power point and it blew my mind, was thirty

1509
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: of all the video chat through Yahoo at this point

1510
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:22,599
Speaker 1: was sexual in nature, and they were concerned about the

1511
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:25,640
Speaker 1: feelings of their operatives who were doing the tagging of

1512
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,639
Speaker 1: all this data. So they'd put their best computer minds

1513
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:30,559
Speaker 1: on it, and they'd come up with an algorithm which

1514
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 1: would detect an excessive amount of skin tone and would

1515
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 1: then kind of flag and silo those clips. And I

1516
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:38,960
Speaker 1: just remember reading this and being like, what about the

1517
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: feelings of the people whose skin tone you're capturing, right,

1518
01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 1: Like you weren't you weren't stopping to think like why

1519
01:33:45,479 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 1: are we doing this? Shouldn't we be doing this? You're

1520
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 1: you're you're solving for the problem of like how do

1521
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 1: we stop our agents seeing all this newnity? And I

1522
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:53,799
Speaker 1: think there was there was a bunch of other anecdotes

1523
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:59,080
Speaker 1: right in the snowed and stuff of people alongside him,

1524
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,439
Speaker 1: like you know, looking through people's webcom data and stuff

1525
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 1: and in a in a voyeuristic way, and just this

1526
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 1: constant invasion of people's rights. So I think that it

1527
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:11,880
Speaker 1: was one of those things where I was like, oh,

1528
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 1: this is this is like new, like you know, we

1529
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:19,960
Speaker 1: now have you know you you you worry about certain

1530
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:23,679
Speaker 1: levels of like your privacy being invaded, and you would

1531
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:26,200
Speaker 1: certainly worry if someone was letting themselves into your house

1532
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 1: at night. But we suddenly found ourselves in this position

1533
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:31,680
Speaker 1: where we have these phones that we put by our

1534
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 1: bedside at night, that have cameras and microphones that are

1535
01:34:34,400 --> 01:34:39,519
Speaker 1: pretty much just running right and capturing, and just the

1536
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: extent to which now technology has transformed surveillance, and that

1537
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:49,720
Speaker 1: that was really interesting to me because I um and

1538
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 1: a big thing I wanted to do. You know, I've

1539
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 1: made her story. And like, growing up, I loved cop shows,

1540
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:01,280
Speaker 1: and I particularly loved the good ones, like like Homicide,

1541
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:02,960
Speaker 1: Life on the Street in the US. There was a

1542
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,960
Speaker 1: show in the UK called Cracker Um and these were like,

1543
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, somewhat nuanced in how they with policing, but

1544
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're still you know, in this position

1545
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 1: now where we're starting to ask deeper questions about whether

1546
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:20,439
Speaker 1: we should watch this many cops shows. Yeah, when they're

1547
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:24,280
Speaker 1: like the main thing on all television all the time. Yeah, exactly.

1548
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:27,960
Speaker 1: And that would be like when I made her story,

1549
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:31,400
Speaker 1: Partly I pitched the bigger publishers like we should do

1550
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:33,760
Speaker 1: the equivalent of a cop show like that, we should

1551
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 1: do crime fictional cop show, video game. And they would

1552
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 1: always be like nah, And I would say, well, look,

1553
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:41,920
Speaker 1: this is like the evergreen. If you're a book publisher,

1554
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:43,479
Speaker 1: you have a crime show, you have a crime book.

1555
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:45,479
Speaker 1: You know, if you doing movies, you're going to have

1556
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:50,200
Speaker 1: some movies with this genres. It works. And they would

1557
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:52,639
Speaker 1: always kind of push against that. So when I made

1558
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:56,080
Speaker 1: her story, that was in fact, like the arc of

1559
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:59,160
Speaker 1: of playing her story to some extent mirrors my ark

1560
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 1: in that Like at the top of it, I was like,

1561
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: I want to make an interesting detective game, and I

1562
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:09,760
Speaker 1: want to deconstruct how detective stories work. And I then

1563
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:14,240
Speaker 1: started to do a bunch of research whereas digging into, well,

1564
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:17,760
Speaker 1: how do actual criminal investigations work, how does one interrogate

1565
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,719
Speaker 1: the suspect doing all that stuff? And then I started

1566
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 1: to pull up what at the time, like there was

1567
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 1: a bit it was slightly ahead of like the true

1568
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 1: crime explosion, but there was starting to be stuff on

1569
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 1: YouTube and in various places where footage from real investigations

1570
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 1: was online, and it was starting to get a bit

1571
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:38,640
Speaker 1: weird and interesting, and that people were kind of vicariously

1572
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:42,960
Speaker 1: watching these things. And yeah, that raised also of questions

1573
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:44,920
Speaker 1: they were trying to piece together their own kind of

1574
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:50,759
Speaker 1: conclusions based on these leaked or sometimes officially released interview segments. Yeah,

1575
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:54,320
Speaker 1: and and there was one in particularly got really into

1576
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:57,640
Speaker 1: the Jodi Arias case. It's just like a and and

1577
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:01,320
Speaker 1: the way the media spun that story and just really

1578
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:04,719
Speaker 1: dug into oh, there's like sex and murder and Mormons,

1579
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:07,280
Speaker 1: and there's this beautiful blonde woman who now when she

1580
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 1: goes to court, has gone brunette, and they were endlessly

1581
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,679
Speaker 1: talking about on cable news like her parents and setting

1582
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:19,160
Speaker 1: her up as this kind of them fatal kind of

1583
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:23,639
Speaker 1: ice maiden. On the slip side of this, I think

1584
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 1: there's like the thing with them the Making the Murderer documentary,

1585
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 1: which I think I have some issues with how they

1586
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: handle the main guy, but particularly how they showed the

1587
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 1: totally immoral interrogation tactics used on used on Brandon the

1588
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:40,599
Speaker 1: kid Um, and that really cracked that whole thing open,

1589
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, the way the police are interrogating miners

1590
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:47,760
Speaker 1: without it was the lawyers is shocking, and that was

1591
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 1: that was that was part of this transition for me.

1592
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 1: Was was was going into her story with like the

1593
01:37:52,439 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: hero of this is the detective. It's Andre Brower and

1594
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 1: homicide life in the street. It's the genius detective that's

1595
01:37:57,080 --> 01:37:59,559
Speaker 1: going to come in there and crack this case. And

1596
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: the more I dug into in cases like Jody's where

1597
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:10,479
Speaker 1: um there word various um aspects to that case. She

1598
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 1: definitely did murder her lover, but there are lots of

1599
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:18,160
Speaker 1: questions around whether the relationship itself was particularly healthy. Um

1600
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:20,479
Speaker 1: and by the end of it, like all of my

1601
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 1: sympathy was with Jody, not with the interrogator who you

1602
01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 1: watch it and you realize that, like, the reason this

1603
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 1: person is in this situation is because their life has

1604
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:35,479
Speaker 1: gone very badly, and the reason for that is everything

1605
01:38:35,520 --> 01:38:37,840
Speaker 1: that's happened in their life prior to this, and they've

1606
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:40,599
Speaker 1: never spoken to anyone about any of this stuff. And

1607
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: suddenly they're in this room with the homicide detective who's like, hey,

1608
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 1: you can talk to me. I'm the first person that's

1609
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 1: going to sit and listen to you, and all these

1610
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 1: tricks that they use to just get people talking, and

1611
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 1: it becomes very intimate and becomes kind of like therapy session.

1612
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 1: But by the end of it so so for me,

1613
01:38:57,720 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: like the hook of her story is, oh, you get

1614
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:02,240
Speaker 1: to solver murder, but really, by the end of it,

1615
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:07,160
Speaker 1: it's like a character portna. You should entirely be with

1616
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:12,040
Speaker 1: her that is less about seeing justice done right. So

1617
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:14,680
Speaker 1: I even but even coming away from that, I was like,

1618
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:18,759
Speaker 1: I still feel slightly uncomfortable with with kind of having

1619
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:22,280
Speaker 1: made this thing that is reveling in how much fun

1620
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:25,200
Speaker 1: it is to be involved in the police work or whatever.

1621
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 1: And so I was definitely thinking about the snows and stuff,

1622
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:34,160
Speaker 1: thinking about that aspect and the extent to which technology

1623
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:41,280
Speaker 1: has just so empowered policing in general to the point

1624
01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:44,800
Speaker 1: where it's there's this great um Like one of the

1625
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:46,840
Speaker 1: core themes that I wanted to dig into and telling

1626
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,599
Speaker 1: lies was that when you see people try and defend

1627
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 1: this stuff and defend policing in general, is they try

1628
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:56,479
Speaker 1: and set it up so that you basically have They

1629
01:39:56,520 --> 01:40:00,640
Speaker 1: talk in terms of families and very close relationships, so

1630
01:40:00,640 --> 01:40:03,080
Speaker 1: they're kind of like, well, the government is your parent,

1631
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 1: and they're trying to look after you. And you understand

1632
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:10,960
Speaker 1: as a parent, you're going to sometimes invade the privacy

1633
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 1: of your children or sometimes you're going to inhibit their

1634
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:16,360
Speaker 1: freedoms because you're trying to protect them. And we all

1635
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:18,800
Speaker 1: understand that, and that's part of being human, and that's

1636
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:20,880
Speaker 1: all that's happening here with government, right We're trying to

1637
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:23,600
Speaker 1: protect you from the big bad, the evil sort of

1638
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 1: like there's some tweet from the YPD the other day

1639
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:30,040
Speaker 1: that was like you'll be come, You'll come running when

1640
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:35,080
Speaker 1: evil is on your doorstep. Someone was saying something and

1641
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:39,160
Speaker 1: and and for me, once you you take that understanding

1642
01:40:39,200 --> 01:40:42,360
Speaker 1: of how people relate directly to which they how families work.

1643
01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:46,200
Speaker 1: The second you scale it to the size of government,

1644
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 1: it breaks like that you cannot extend that metaphor. And

1645
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,760
Speaker 1: then when you add in tech, um, you know, the

1646
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 1: extent to which uh, you know, privacy has been degraded

1647
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,600
Speaker 1: of freedoms. Um, you know, when you start just blanket

1648
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 1: looking for crime, right, you start creating all the systemic

1649
01:41:05,880 --> 01:41:10,559
Speaker 1: issues that we have just suddenly become amplified. Um. So

1650
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 1: that that to me was kind of interesting. Um, well,

1651
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:19,439
Speaker 1: you know, here is like a means to explore that.

1652
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:22,799
Speaker 1: And I like one of the things that was interesting

1653
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 1: to me about her story that in retrospect was the

1654
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,519
Speaker 1: extent to which it was about watching video, which seems

1655
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 1: like a dumb thing to say, but like the choice

1656
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:35,519
Speaker 1: to use real video kind of inspired by watching all

1657
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: these interrogation piece of footage from Jodi and people. Um,

1658
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, it was was kind of made Oh yeah,

1659
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: that makes sense, and I just kind of got on

1660
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 1: with it. But then looking back, I was like, oh, well,

1661
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:48,439
Speaker 1: it's interesting because people talk about this game as being

1662
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:51,240
Speaker 1: an interactive movie, but it's nothing like a movie. No no,

1663
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: and it's not how movies work. It just happens that

1664
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:57,840
Speaker 1: it uses a video camera. Only similarity is that it

1665
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 1: has live action footage that yeah, So I was like,

1666
01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:03,960
Speaker 1: I really want to go even further into that texture.

1667
01:42:04,000 --> 01:42:05,840
Speaker 1: And so I was just thinking about and when I

1668
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:08,120
Speaker 1: was starting to do my research, like the idea of

1669
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:13,800
Speaker 1: surveillance and and the commonalities between like classic old school surveillance,

1670
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:17,920
Speaker 1: I you know, someone sat in a car some binoculars

1671
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:22,720
Speaker 1: watching someone and and modern surveillance. The commonalities that it's

1672
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:26,400
Speaker 1: quite boring, right, there's just a lot of sitting and

1673
01:42:26,439 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 1: watching nothing. Yeah, right. And but out of that, and

1674
01:42:31,360 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 1: when you kind of read the first hand accounts of

1675
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: the people doing the surveillance or some of the depictions

1676
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:40,840
Speaker 1: of this media, like there's a level of intimacy that

1677
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:45,240
Speaker 1: you get with the person you're surveilling right where you know,

1678
01:42:45,280 --> 01:42:47,519
Speaker 1: if you're just sat watching them and you schef someone's life,

1679
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:49,640
Speaker 1: if you're listening to a bug in someone's kitchen and

1680
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 1: just hearing all the just everyday ship in their lives,

1681
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,680
Speaker 1: or if you are you know, watching them through some

1682
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: kind of technology, Um, you're just spending all this time

1683
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 1: with them, and that's like a that's like a very

1684
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:05,120
Speaker 1: non cinematic thing. It's just like this that menu shy

1685
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:08,679
Speaker 1: and the time stretching out of just being present with somebody.

1686
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:13,080
Speaker 1: And that was kind of interesting to me of just

1687
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:16,880
Speaker 1: kind of putting you in that headspace and kind of

1688
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:20,759
Speaker 1: thinking about what that means. I think that totally gets

1689
01:43:20,760 --> 01:43:24,080
Speaker 1: through because of the way you break up the conversations

1690
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,559
Speaker 1: and telling lies. You have to sit and watch these

1691
01:43:26,680 --> 01:43:30,400
Speaker 1: characters as they're just doing nothing for sometimes like like

1692
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,640
Speaker 1: over five minutes. They're just like sitting there, um, and

1693
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 1: you do get like very intimate with these characters, but

1694
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:39,720
Speaker 1: it almost like in a very like creepy way where

1695
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:43,559
Speaker 1: you like you feel like I shouldn't be here, which

1696
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 1: is kind of the general feeling of telling us really

1697
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 1: interesting because I like some people would have a very

1698
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:52,320
Speaker 1: and and this was you know, completely again like trying

1699
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:56,759
Speaker 1: to process how I felt watching the like the videos

1700
01:43:56,800 --> 01:43:59,240
Speaker 1: of all the various police interrogations and stuff, was like,

1701
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:02,720
Speaker 1: this is fascinating because there's human beings were fascinated by

1702
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:05,839
Speaker 1: other human beings, and here is this extremely interesting dramatic

1703
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:08,599
Speaker 1: stuff where people are just really spilling their lives out.

1704
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:11,280
Speaker 1: It's why true crime blew up, right, But then you

1705
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 1: have all these moral questions around it. And obviously with

1706
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:17,720
Speaker 1: telling lies, it's inspired by lots of real things, but

1707
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:21,280
Speaker 1: it's fake and you're watching actors act this stuff. But

1708
01:44:21,360 --> 01:44:23,960
Speaker 1: still some people would have this real visceral reaction of

1709
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:26,760
Speaker 1: like I shouldn't be watching some of this stuff, and

1710
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 1: I'd be like, I mean, you you can. It's like

1711
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 1: that was that was where it became really not cinematic

1712
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 1: to me, was like, you know, if you're watching a

1713
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, a noir film or you know, a thriller

1714
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 1: and you have you know, or even like the The

1715
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:46,439
Speaker 1: thing for the domestic stuff for me was you know,

1716
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:48,920
Speaker 1: you could watch and a sitcom, watching any a normal

1717
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:53,160
Speaker 1: sitcom and the husband and wife are sat in bed chatting.

1718
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:55,519
Speaker 1: At no point do you feel like I shouldn't be

1719
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:58,639
Speaker 1: here because you're in the kind of classic Hollywood invisible

1720
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:01,839
Speaker 1: camera set up. You're this, you know, you have permission

1721
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 1: to be there as the invisible camera spectator, and it

1722
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 1: doesn't feel as weird as it would if you're hiding

1723
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 1: in the closet of this comple's bedroom. Um So with

1724
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 1: the setup I'm telling lies, you immediately feel like, oh,

1725
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 1: like this I am in this position that I shouldn't be,

1726
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 1: And so suddenly all those more domestic moments become charged

1727
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:25,599
Speaker 1: with like a very different vibe. Yeah, because you're watching

1728
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 1: them and you're you're not invited, like right, you're you know,

1729
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:30,640
Speaker 1: you're sitting looking at this ns A hard drive and

1730
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:32,160
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I'm not supposed to be watching this

1731
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 1: like this, this, this isn't They never invited me into

1732
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:38,880
Speaker 1: this conversation. Telling Lies very much feels like a much

1733
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 1: more mature game than her story. Not in terms of

1734
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:44,519
Speaker 1: like has like more mature content, but like in terms

1735
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 1: of like this concept growing up and like evolving and

1736
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:50,920
Speaker 1: gaining more depth. Um, particularly because you know, not only

1737
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:53,400
Speaker 1: just because it has way more characters, but because you know,

1738
01:45:53,479 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: you get to all of your kind of games deal

1739
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:58,800
Speaker 1: with some degree of like characters lying to you and

1740
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 1: like just doing like straight line to your face. That's

1741
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:02,840
Speaker 1: kind of a that's my read on a lot of

1742
01:46:02,840 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: a lot of your games. Um, I mean, you're the

1743
01:46:05,240 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 1: game is called Telling Lies, so so you definitely see

1744
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 1: like elements of of you know, all of these trying

1745
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 1: to figure out what is true and what is not.

1746
01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:16,599
Speaker 1: I think it is interesting looking at like how easier

1747
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:21,320
Speaker 1: it is to lie via these technological platforms. UM, I

1748
01:46:21,360 --> 01:46:24,200
Speaker 1: don't know to just like you feel like telling the

1749
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:26,200
Speaker 1: truth is just so much more work and you may

1750
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:28,840
Speaker 1: as well just get through this conversation by doing a

1751
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:31,839
Speaker 1: few white lives, which is that inspiral out of control. Um.

1752
01:46:31,880 --> 01:46:34,320
Speaker 1: When you combine this with you know, law enforcement infiltration

1753
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff, he gets it gets

1754
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:38,680
Speaker 1: very complicated very quickly. Um. One thing that I think

1755
01:46:38,720 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 1: you guys handled very well in Telling Lies was kind

1756
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:43,920
Speaker 1: of the activism side of things. So like when when

1757
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,639
Speaker 1: I play this game, like almost immediately after coming back

1758
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:50,000
Speaker 1: from the stop lining three protests, um, and like and

1759
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 1: and like in Earth First Gathering, you know, everyone there

1760
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:56,320
Speaker 1: is always very people try to be aware of surveillance

1761
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:57,760
Speaker 1: to be like, okay, you know, you don't talk about

1762
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:01,439
Speaker 1: certain things if there's phones nearby and stuff. So so

1763
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:04,439
Speaker 1: that whole side of things was very interesting to like

1764
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:06,920
Speaker 1: play this game right afterwards because you have to see

1765
01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:08,920
Speaker 1: like the other side of things, being like, okay, if

1766
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 1: the the FBI is infiltrating this group, here's you know,

1767
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:13,559
Speaker 1: one of the ways that they do it. And like

1768
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:17,719
Speaker 1: that from my perspective being you know, in activism spaces

1769
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:19,920
Speaker 1: for a while not just like environmental ones, but you

1770
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:23,559
Speaker 1: know other ones like here in Portland. Um, you had

1771
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:28,840
Speaker 1: you handled this topic very accurately. Um, where what kind

1772
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 1: of stuff did you pull from to kind of create

1773
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:35,760
Speaker 1: these like these you know environments and interactions between people.

1774
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:37,559
Speaker 1: Because I'm not sure if you have any experience yourself

1775
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:39,719
Speaker 1: and stuff like this or if you've got people onto

1776
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,800
Speaker 1: like like you talk to people who are more experienced activists.

1777
01:47:43,120 --> 01:47:45,240
Speaker 1: What was kind of your inspiration for like, you know,

1778
01:47:45,320 --> 01:47:47,959
Speaker 1: the opposite side of things, not on the law enforcement.

1779
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:50,120
Speaker 1: So that was that was like one of the big

1780
01:47:50,479 --> 01:47:55,640
Speaker 1: initial jumping off points. So uh like in terms of

1781
01:47:55,680 --> 01:47:59,400
Speaker 1: the kind of real life inspirations, Like the seed of

1782
01:47:59,439 --> 01:48:03,360
Speaker 1: this whole thing was to remember when this was it

1783
01:48:03,400 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: was I'm gonna say two thou could be completely wrong here,

1784
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,479
Speaker 1: but it was The Guardian in the UK I think

1785
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,680
Speaker 1: broke the story. But it was and we've recently had

1786
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 1: some good progress in this this area, but broke the

1787
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:24,160
Speaker 1: story of this UK spy Cops operation, which was a

1788
01:48:24,280 --> 01:48:28,960
Speaker 1: specific unit within the London Police whose job was to

1789
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:35,600
Speaker 1: infiltrate groups, to surveil them from the inside. And um,

1790
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:39,000
Speaker 1: it was horrific and they were like a couple of

1791
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,000
Speaker 1: things about it that were horrific. One of them was

1792
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:46,480
Speaker 1: that like, essentially their modus operandi was to find vulnerable

1793
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 1: young women on the periphery of groups, target them romantically,

1794
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: and then they would be the collateral to get, you know,

1795
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 1: to have people then more solidly enter into these groups.

1796
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: And then they had like a whole you know, stepped

1797
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:04,519
Speaker 1: plan of like once you're in, how you kind of

1798
01:49:04,720 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 1: would would destabilized steer these groups from within UM. And

1799
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:16,760
Speaker 1: the the thing that really made this even worse UM

1800
01:49:17,080 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: was the fact that most of the groups, I think

1801
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:23,519
Speaker 1: maybe all of the groups targeted with this particular unit

1802
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:31,559
Speaker 1: were green activists. There's this incredible, incredible, like you couldn't

1803
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:35,799
Speaker 1: make this stuff up. But there's a famous libel case

1804
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:38,960
Speaker 1: where McDonald's was suing these these two activists in the

1805
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:44,320
Speaker 1: UK right because they were putting up flyers exposing some

1806
01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:48,920
Speaker 1: of the practices of McDonald's and the group that they

1807
01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:51,360
Speaker 1: were members of, which I think at this point was

1808
01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:53,920
Speaker 1: called Green Piece, but it was different to the kind

1809
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:58,479
Speaker 1: of more famous Green Piece in London. Prior to them

1810
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:02,680
Speaker 1: doing this big kind of mcd arnold's thing, UM was

1811
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:05,599
Speaker 1: losing members and it got to a point where there

1812
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:08,639
Speaker 1: were so few people in this group that it would

1813
01:50:08,680 --> 01:50:11,240
Speaker 1: have shut down had it not been for the fact

1814
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:17,640
Speaker 1: that there were a large number of undercover cops in

1815
01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:19,760
Speaker 1: this group. So you know, if you imagine at some

1816
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:23,600
Speaker 1: point there were actually more undercover cops and private security

1817
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:27,120
Speaker 1: people undercover in this group that actual activists, which has

1818
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 1: enabled the group to continue. And in fact, the original

1819
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:35,280
Speaker 1: flyer that they put out was written I forget the

1820
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: guy's name now by one of these undercover cops. He

1821
01:50:38,840 --> 01:50:43,479
Speaker 1: wrote the copy for this flyer that went out and

1822
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:45,760
Speaker 1: then was you know, saw this these people dragged up

1823
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:48,320
Speaker 1: in court and was this huge you know, McDonald's won

1824
01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:50,400
Speaker 1: the case, but in terms of pr it was hugely

1825
01:50:50,439 --> 01:50:53,360
Speaker 1: damaging to them. But yeah, that that for me was

1826
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:56,639
Speaker 1: the thing that seemed even more a point because because

1827
01:50:56,640 --> 01:51:00,520
Speaker 1: here you had this story of the state so actioning

1828
01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:05,560
Speaker 1: the you know, one of the most terrible abuses. Like essentially,

1829
01:51:05,880 --> 01:51:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, what was happening was pretty easy to to

1830
01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 1: kind of call it rape, right. There was women in

1831
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:18,160
Speaker 1: sexual relationships with people and thinking it was consensual, but

1832
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 1: not realizing that they this was you know, what they

1833
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 1: were getting into was not what they thought it was,

1834
01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:28,880
Speaker 1: and so this was just so appalling and like from

1835
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:36,800
Speaker 1: a just to kind of base emotional level, just it

1836
01:51:36,880 --> 01:51:41,560
Speaker 1: was so hard for me to imagine the pain of

1837
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:44,599
Speaker 1: Um and these women when relationships with these undercover officers

1838
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: for years and then and and and part of the

1839
01:51:48,160 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 1: modus operanda was when you were done, you had to

1840
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:52,920
Speaker 1: exit and disappear. And they had this whole plan where

1841
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:56,680
Speaker 1: the cops would claim that they were being followed and

1842
01:51:56,680 --> 01:51:58,800
Speaker 1: that they were worried, and then they would disappear. And

1843
01:51:58,840 --> 01:52:02,160
Speaker 1: then they would cool from some European country and say

1844
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:03,840
Speaker 1: that they've kind of fled the country because they were

1845
01:52:03,880 --> 01:52:06,680
Speaker 1: worried that the cops were onto them, and then they

1846
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:08,920
Speaker 1: would slowly kind of disappear and this you know, some

1847
01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:11,880
Speaker 1: of these were kind of pre modern Internet, so it

1848
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 1: was easier for someone to kind of disappear. But this

1849
01:52:15,160 --> 01:52:17,759
Speaker 1: stuff totally happened in the Green Scare in the States,

1850
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:21,439
Speaker 1: in you know, around this was around this was My

1851
01:52:21,479 --> 01:52:24,639
Speaker 1: big question was was this you know, some of these

1852
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:27,040
Speaker 1: cases were kind of the original inspiration. And when I

1853
01:52:27,080 --> 01:52:31,120
Speaker 1: started thinking about trying to tell a story inspired by

1854
01:52:31,120 --> 01:52:34,519
Speaker 1: their originally it starts off and and and there's still

1855
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:37,120
Speaker 1: in based in the UK and based on these things,

1856
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:41,920
Speaker 1: and there was a particular, ah, a particular flavor to

1857
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:44,679
Speaker 1: it where the cops doing this work it was part

1858
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:47,560
Speaker 1: of the Matt Police, who were you know, that's the

1859
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:52,040
Speaker 1: more kind of gang story, Like there's there's a real

1860
01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:55,720
Speaker 1: reputation that the Matt Police have. So these cops that

1861
01:52:55,800 --> 01:52:58,320
Speaker 1: were chosen for this work were the ones that were

1862
01:52:58,320 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 1: a bit more kind of Marcho and edge. Um, and

1863
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: there were there was I mean, there was so much

1864
01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:04,519
Speaker 1: stuff to it was horrific, Like they would only pick

1865
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:11,479
Speaker 1: cops that were married, um because they felt that that

1866
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:17,799
Speaker 1: h gave them some level of ability to be sleeping

1867
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:21,240
Speaker 1: with these activists and not lose themselves in it. Um.

1868
01:53:21,280 --> 01:53:23,960
Speaker 1: But obviously the wives didn't know what was sending um.

1869
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:26,040
Speaker 1: And and there's just there's so many layers of this

1870
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 1: that I just thought was it was awful, and coming

1871
01:53:30,400 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: off the first story, I was like, well, I would

1872
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:36,760
Speaker 1: love to tell an undercover cops story in which we

1873
01:53:37,680 --> 01:53:41,600
Speaker 1: acknowledged that the undercover cop is bad. They aren't, like,

1874
01:53:42,080 --> 01:53:44,519
Speaker 1: you know, because because it's such a classic trope, is

1875
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:47,439
Speaker 1: the undercover cops story. Because you get to have your

1876
01:53:47,439 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 1: cake and eat it, you get to see someone on

1877
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:51,120
Speaker 1: both sides the law you get, you get all the

1878
01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:55,519
Speaker 1: tension and thrills of it. But usually, you know, whatever,

1879
01:53:55,680 --> 01:53:57,880
Speaker 1: even if the if the movie or the story or

1880
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:01,600
Speaker 1: whatever has a bitter sweet ending, the protagonists always the

1881
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: undercover cop. And ultimately, because they're the protagonist, they're the

1882
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:08,880
Speaker 1: one that your heart goes to, right. And the secondary characters,

1883
01:54:09,080 --> 01:54:11,439
Speaker 1: whether that's like the wife in Donnie Brasco or Good

1884
01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:13,960
Speaker 1: Fellows or something, you know, they basically serve as a

1885
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:16,000
Speaker 1: foil to the main character. So I was like, well,

1886
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: can we tell a story where, um, we we treat

1887
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:24,320
Speaker 1: the wife and the activist who's being targeted and the

1888
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:28,599
Speaker 1: other people on the periphery of this guys think more

1889
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:32,560
Speaker 1: about their perspective on this world, and let's acknowledge from

1890
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:36,800
Speaker 1: our perspective that this is wrong. Everything that's happening is

1891
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:39,000
Speaker 1: wrong and it's not justified. And then let's just see

1892
01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:42,120
Speaker 1: what the impact is on people. UM. So, once we

1893
01:54:42,120 --> 01:54:45,880
Speaker 1: started developing it, and when I was speaking to Anna

1894
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:49,000
Speaker 1: partner about doing it, um, I felt like, oh, we

1895
01:54:49,000 --> 01:54:52,960
Speaker 1: should move this to the States, um to make it

1896
01:54:54,480 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 1: feel certainly as well, because the larger audiences American to

1897
01:54:58,360 --> 01:55:01,840
Speaker 1: to kind of reiterate and make it feel kind of

1898
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:05,520
Speaker 1: more identifiable and have it be less quaint and British. Um.

1899
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:07,760
Speaker 1: So my number one question from day one was like, well,

1900
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 1: does this ship happen in the States, and as such,

1901
01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:12,280
Speaker 1: does it happen in the same way. And so we

1902
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:15,640
Speaker 1: brought on a researcher who then started pulling stuff up

1903
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 1: and and the big thing for me was replacing the

1904
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 1: undercover group the met with the FBI, and and then

1905
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:28,640
Speaker 1: I that became fascinating to me because then I started

1906
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:32,480
Speaker 1: digging into the FBI and understanding their history and everything

1907
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:37,280
Speaker 1: that's wrong there. But yeah, immediately I start seeing all

1908
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:41,720
Speaker 1: these great examples of of yeah, this explicit infiltration of

1909
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:47,320
Speaker 1: green groups um, some pretty horrific cases of entrapment um,

1910
01:55:47,360 --> 01:55:51,360
Speaker 1: where you know, people infiltrate these groups and then encourage

1911
01:55:51,400 --> 01:55:55,360
Speaker 1: them to do more extreme and violent things on the record.

1912
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:58,960
Speaker 1: It's the point where you're listening to like recorded FBI

1913
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:03,120
Speaker 1: stuff and and you can hear the group being like

1914
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that, Like that doesn't sound like

1915
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 1: a great idea, dude, And the the FBI person is

1916
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:12,920
Speaker 1: there going like, what, I don't know, I really do

1917
01:56:12,960 --> 01:56:16,600
Speaker 1: think we should blow this bridge up. Guys, and it's

1918
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:19,400
Speaker 1: so obvious like when you listen to which is why

1919
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:21,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these cases have ultimately been thrown out.

1920
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:25,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was it was It was I guess

1921
01:56:26,360 --> 01:56:29,160
Speaker 1: for the project, reassuring to see that all this stuff

1922
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:33,280
Speaker 1: was happening over here. Yeah. I mean, and the FBI,

1923
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 1: like the specific FBI agent that we kind of follow

1924
01:56:36,720 --> 01:56:40,960
Speaker 1: definitely feels very American and feels very real. Um. I

1925
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:44,440
Speaker 1: really like the actor that you got to play him. Um,

1926
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:46,280
Speaker 1: he definitely feels like a lot of kind of the

1927
01:56:46,360 --> 01:56:52,280
Speaker 1: law enforcement dudes who kind of handle this side of things. Um.

1928
01:56:52,720 --> 01:56:54,760
Speaker 1: That was that was That was definitely that was like

1929
01:56:54,800 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: an FBI. He became like the fbiis of it became

1930
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 1: very important to it. And it was interesting the way

1931
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: that the FBI they had this brand, which is partly

1932
01:57:05,160 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 1: reinforced by the media, Like they had the great idea

1933
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:11,560
Speaker 1: back in like forties or fifties to themselves fund and

1934
01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:15,080
Speaker 1: support cop shows. So this whole idea we have through

1935
01:57:15,120 --> 01:57:18,680
Speaker 1: the X Files, through pretty much every serial killer media whatever.

1936
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:21,840
Speaker 1: The idea of the FBI is being like the smartest

1937
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 1: and the best, like that's put out by them. But

1938
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:29,360
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to see they believe that like they

1939
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:34,520
Speaker 1: are beyond approach and like they have higher standards for like,

1940
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to join the FBI, there

1941
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 1: is in theory this kind of moral moral check that

1942
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 1: you have to pass. But into abi age and flipping

1943
01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:46,800
Speaker 1: backwards and shooting somebody when his gun falls out of

1944
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:50,360
Speaker 1: his pants at a clip. Well, then you read about

1945
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:53,000
Speaker 1: it and you're like, actually the experience, the lived experience,

1946
01:57:53,040 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 1: and we were it was it was so bizarre because

1947
01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 1: I was like, I really want to understand what it's

1948
01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:01,880
Speaker 1: like to be an FBI wife, and um let's find

1949
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:04,600
Speaker 1: let's reach out and the research I've done. Some of

1950
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:06,120
Speaker 1: the stuff we pulled up, I was like, oh it

1951
01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,960
Speaker 1: it does sound pretty bad. Like there's a requirement if

1952
01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 1: you're an FBI agent you have to move every three

1953
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:16,560
Speaker 1: years or something. So if you're the wife to an

1954
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:19,000
Speaker 1: FBI agent, you essentially move every three years, and so

1955
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:21,560
Speaker 1: you never get a chance to build your own career

1956
01:58:21,720 --> 01:58:24,480
Speaker 1: or to make roots. And so you're generally and the

1957
01:58:24,520 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 1: wage is not great, which is why they're very vulnerable

1958
01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:34,600
Speaker 1: to corruption. Really, um, so you're generally living. There's usually

1959
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of areas where all the FBI families live, so

1960
01:58:37,520 --> 01:58:41,600
Speaker 1: it's this very insular world, and you you start to

1961
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:47,120
Speaker 1: see where some of these wives have come out and

1962
01:58:47,160 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 1: spoken about it. They're like, it's really shitty because husbands

1963
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:53,760
Speaker 1: who believe themselves to be like you know, March of

1964
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 1: superheroes get to disappear for three days at a time

1965
01:58:57,160 --> 01:58:58,760
Speaker 1: and we can never ask where they are or what

1966
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:01,120
Speaker 1: they're doing. And there's this of internal code which you

1967
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:03,000
Speaker 1: seen a lot of law enforcement right where they will

1968
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: cover for each other and protect each other. Um. And

1969
01:59:07,120 --> 01:59:12,640
Speaker 1: you suddenly start to see that, like, ah, you know this,

1970
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:17,560
Speaker 1: this is not like And in fact, I remember reading

1971
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:21,160
Speaker 1: sort of the guy who inspired like Silenced the Lambs.

1972
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 1: The TV show mind Hunter was based on him in

1973
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:25,880
Speaker 1: his book. Um, this guy who was one of the

1974
01:59:25,920 --> 01:59:30,880
Speaker 1: early kind of serial killer profiling people within the FBI.

1975
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:35,200
Speaker 1: You read his book, it's a terrible book. When I

1976
01:59:35,200 --> 01:59:37,680
Speaker 1: heard that Fincher was adapting us like, wow, good luck,

1977
01:59:38,160 --> 01:59:42,880
Speaker 1: m But it's incredible the lack of self awareness he has. Um,

1978
01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:46,280
Speaker 1: this guy is so sexist and so bad. Every time

1979
01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:49,880
Speaker 1: he introduces a woman, it starts by from the legs up,

1980
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:53,840
Speaker 1: like he's describing and Um. At the very end of

1981
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,240
Speaker 1: the book, he reveals that his wife leaves him, and

1982
01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:58,360
Speaker 1: he kind of writes as if this is a huge surprise,

1983
01:59:58,400 --> 02:00:01,440
Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, he's calling u. Chapter one and

1984
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:03,480
Speaker 1: he has the best buddy, So like the guy who's

1985
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 1: who's the kind of number two in mind Hunter on TV,

1986
02:00:07,760 --> 02:00:10,280
Speaker 1: there's like a real life version of him. And halfway

1987
02:00:10,280 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: through the book, his wife hires an assassin to kind

1988
02:00:14,720 --> 02:00:17,080
Speaker 1: of hitman to come in and kill him, and the

1989
02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:19,760
Speaker 1: guy just narrowly avoids it. And the guy writing the

1990
02:00:19,760 --> 02:00:22,840
Speaker 1: book is like what an evil woman like, oh my

1991
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 1: poor friend, And you're like, well, hang on a minute,

1992
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:27,760
Speaker 1: what did your what was your friend? Like? Yeah, what

1993
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:30,520
Speaker 1: was going on? Yeah, there's there's there's probably something going

1994
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:35,440
Speaker 1: on there. So yeah, it was Yeah, that that sense

1995
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:40,640
Speaker 1: that which I think for me, expanded beautifully to the

1996
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:43,960
Speaker 1: bigger picture of like that character kind of believing that

1997
02:00:44,080 --> 02:00:46,880
Speaker 1: he's the good guy absolutely, you know, he's the sheriff

1998
02:00:46,920 --> 02:00:49,440
Speaker 1: in the Western. He's coming in and he's fixing problems

1999
02:00:49,480 --> 02:00:54,320
Speaker 1: and he's saving the world. But and then apart and

2000
02:00:54,320 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 1: and and his inability, like it's such a brittle worldview.

2001
02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:02,600
Speaker 1: That's yeah, guys, he he is very once, yeah, once

2002
02:01:02,600 --> 02:01:05,320
Speaker 1: he's exposed to thinking that the world is maybe different.

2003
02:01:05,360 --> 02:01:10,160
Speaker 1: It just totally breaks him. Yeah. His specific arc I

2004
02:01:10,200 --> 02:01:13,840
Speaker 1: think is extremely interesting. Um, but I don't want to

2005
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:16,520
Speaker 1: spoil it because I think it's it's it's too it's

2006
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:18,600
Speaker 1: too shocking. Once you get to the final piece of

2007
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:22,040
Speaker 1: his story, you're like, oh wow, um, I think that

2008
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:23,800
Speaker 1: was laid out in a really beautiful way. But it's

2009
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:25,760
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not like shocking away like oh this

2010
02:01:25,960 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 1: this like doesn't make sense. It's like, oh no, yeah,

2011
02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:29,720
Speaker 1: I can see that, I can see why he's doing this,

2012
02:01:30,280 --> 02:01:32,640
Speaker 1: but it's still it's like you kind of slowly watched

2013
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:36,480
Speaker 1: this guy get broken down piece by piece. Um, you know,

2014
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,240
Speaker 1: because he starts he's very much like the superhero FBI agent.

2015
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:41,400
Speaker 1: He's like yeah, ha ha, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop

2016
02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 1: these terrorists or whatever, and then he just like yeah,

2017
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,560
Speaker 1: watching him progress throughout the story and you can see

2018
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:49,600
Speaker 1: like how pathetic he is. Sometimes there's a great uh

2019
02:01:50,160 --> 02:01:53,960
Speaker 1: one of the UK spy cops. Um, I forget his name.

2020
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:56,160
Speaker 1: If we're doing this three years ago and I've had

2021
02:01:56,160 --> 02:01:59,640
Speaker 1: all these names in my head, but he um uh

2022
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:02,920
Speaker 1: he was assigned and he was he infiltrated this green

2023
02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 1: group somewhere in the UK for a couple of years

2024
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:11,480
Speaker 1: had this relationship with this girl. Um was participating and facilitating.

2025
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 1: The one detail that I loved and tried to make

2026
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:17,640
Speaker 1: sure he was accurate was all these cops would have

2027
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:20,440
Speaker 1: a van or they would have like a big truck

2028
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:23,760
Speaker 1: in the UK because they realized that, like in these

2029
02:02:23,760 --> 02:02:27,640
Speaker 1: smaller groups like being the transportation was like your superpower.

2030
02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:29,480
Speaker 1: So like if you are someone was like, oh, I'll

2031
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:31,480
Speaker 1: drive everyone to the thing, I'll get us all that

2032
02:02:31,600 --> 02:02:34,720
Speaker 1: because I have this big van. UM, that was the

2033
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 1: easiest way to just kind of make yourself useful. Um.

2034
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:41,000
Speaker 1: But this guy is doing all that. At some point, UM,

2035
02:02:41,040 --> 02:02:45,280
Speaker 1: they decided to pull him and they pull him out.

2036
02:02:45,360 --> 02:02:47,840
Speaker 1: He returns to his wife and his normal life back

2037
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:52,080
Speaker 1: in London. Um. But he can't go back to his

2038
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:54,920
Speaker 1: normal life, and so he starts and he's done all

2039
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:58,840
Speaker 1: the stuff of disappearing, but he just starts getting up

2040
02:02:58,880 --> 02:03:01,480
Speaker 1: and driving and maybe he's in the north of England somewhere,

2041
02:03:01,760 --> 02:03:04,000
Speaker 1: just just shows back up and he's like, oh, I'm back, guys,

2042
02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:05,760
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, ship, what happened? I thought you

2043
02:03:05,800 --> 02:03:07,680
Speaker 1: had to like disappear because people are after you, and

2044
02:03:07,720 --> 02:03:11,760
Speaker 1: he's like, no, it's all right, ah and just goes

2045
02:03:11,840 --> 02:03:15,400
Speaker 1: back to living as an activist. UM. And at some

2046
02:03:15,480 --> 02:03:19,560
Speaker 1: point one of his superiors notices that the mileage on

2047
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:25,120
Speaker 1: his police paid vehicle is huge, and they're like, why

2048
02:03:25,200 --> 02:03:27,480
Speaker 1: is this guy doing so much? My legion is because

2049
02:03:27,480 --> 02:03:30,880
Speaker 1: he's driving all the way back and continuing to live

2050
02:03:30,960 --> 02:03:35,200
Speaker 1: this life and inhabit this character that he's set up. UM.

2051
02:03:35,360 --> 02:03:38,480
Speaker 1: And at some point I think he gets found out

2052
02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:41,400
Speaker 1: and it all goes horribly wrong because he no longer

2053
02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:45,440
Speaker 1: has like the fake idea and stuff that they gave him.

2054
02:03:45,480 --> 02:03:48,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean that, and it's like that stuff

2055
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:50,880
Speaker 1: is interesting. But then you it was always important to

2056
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:56,560
Speaker 1: never be overly sympathetic. And when you see them struggling,

2057
02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:00,480
Speaker 1: there is returns of life. There is certain points where

2058
02:04:00,480 --> 02:04:02,840
Speaker 1: you see the FBI agents struggling because of how like

2059
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:05,840
Speaker 1: smug he is. You're like, yes, he's struggling, and you

2060
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:08,240
Speaker 1: like get excited when he gets like when he gets

2061
02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:11,120
Speaker 1: like reprimanded or he you know, people are like mad

2062
02:04:11,160 --> 02:04:13,080
Speaker 1: at him for various reasons, and it is very interesting

2063
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:15,600
Speaker 1: how you like how sympathies get pulled in certain directions

2064
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:17,280
Speaker 1: because like, by the end of the game, you definitely

2065
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 1: have a much fuller perspective on who this guy is

2066
02:04:20,800 --> 02:04:23,840
Speaker 1: and how his kind of psyche works, because he is

2067
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:26,560
Speaker 1: really in a lot of ways like kind of pathetic

2068
02:04:26,640 --> 02:04:29,240
Speaker 1: as like a person. Um And he like needs to

2069
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:32,760
Speaker 1: like hype himself up for himself, to like make himself

2070
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:35,120
Speaker 1: feel like he's special. Then when that gets broken down,

2071
02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:38,320
Speaker 1: he just completely collapses. I guess one of the last

2072
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:41,480
Speaker 1: things I want to talk about is like, throughout all

2073
02:04:41,560 --> 02:04:44,160
Speaker 1: your games, you have kind of a through line of

2074
02:04:44,160 --> 02:04:46,440
Speaker 1: like fairy tales. You kind of you bring in fairy

2075
02:04:46,440 --> 02:04:50,760
Speaker 1: tale concepts into all of these games. Um And. I

2076
02:04:50,840 --> 02:04:52,440
Speaker 1: like how a lot of your games are very open

2077
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:54,240
Speaker 1: ended in some ways. I think of her story being

2078
02:04:54,280 --> 02:04:57,360
Speaker 1: much more open ended than than telling lies in some ways.

2079
02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:01,320
Speaker 1: Um And, I really like that you kind of you

2080
02:05:01,360 --> 02:05:03,400
Speaker 1: can't like look up, like what is the ending of

2081
02:05:03,440 --> 02:05:05,240
Speaker 1: this game. It's like no, like you have to piece

2082
02:05:05,240 --> 02:05:07,720
Speaker 1: it together in your own brain like that, and whatever

2083
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:09,800
Speaker 1: you think the story is, that's what it is for you.

2084
02:05:09,840 --> 02:05:13,480
Speaker 1: There's no like definitive ending, especially like especially for her story.

2085
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:16,560
Speaker 1: Um And how this combines with fairy tales, I think

2086
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:18,640
Speaker 1: it's it's a really interesting way to like include like

2087
02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 1: mythology into these more modern stories. What's kind of your

2088
02:05:22,200 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 1: pot process behind you know, kind of kind of including

2089
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:28,480
Speaker 1: mythology and fairy tales into these more like modern stories

2090
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:31,760
Speaker 1: of like you know, people interacting with like government, law enforcement,

2091
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:33,520
Speaker 1: and then just you know, breaking down their own psyches

2092
02:05:33,600 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 1: under these heightened situations. Yeah, I mean I think it.

2093
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:41,040
Speaker 1: I think it came initially with her story of yeah,

2094
02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 1: thinking about that, the kind of meta storytelling nous of

2095
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:49,400
Speaker 1: these things, right, of the extent to which now experiments

2096
02:05:49,400 --> 02:05:52,360
Speaker 1: and like how we tell stories, um, and but a

2097
02:05:52,400 --> 02:05:55,720
Speaker 1: lot of times, like the myths and the the kind

2098
02:05:55,720 --> 02:05:59,760
Speaker 1: of classic stories that people go to those right to

2099
02:06:00,040 --> 02:06:05,560
Speaker 1: ryan understand the bigger questions or certainly like, um, I

2100
02:06:05,600 --> 02:06:11,120
Speaker 1: guess partly came out of Ah, the start of first story,

2101
02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:13,320
Speaker 1: I had like two youngest kids, and you're so you're

2102
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:15,720
Speaker 1: reading them all the classic stories, and you realize the

2103
02:06:15,720 --> 02:06:19,320
Speaker 1: extent to it, these are just encoding our society's values. Right.

2104
02:06:19,640 --> 02:06:23,400
Speaker 1: But I had this incredible book that was that my

2105
02:06:23,440 --> 02:06:26,960
Speaker 1: parents got for me, and I tracked down and made

2106
02:06:26,960 --> 02:06:28,680
Speaker 1: sure we still had when I had my kids. That

2107
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:31,720
Speaker 1: was called it was like folk Tales of the People's

2108
02:06:31,720 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 1: of the Soviet Republic from like the early eighties, and

2109
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:38,200
Speaker 1: it was collected like a lot of people. I think

2110
02:06:38,160 --> 02:06:42,200
Speaker 1: it was Ukrainian folk tales and they were amazing because

2111
02:06:42,200 --> 02:06:46,080
Speaker 1: they were so dark. Like the message of each of

2112
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:49,560
Speaker 1: these stories was trust nobody. The rich will always win,

2113
02:06:49,800 --> 02:06:53,320
Speaker 1: you will undet dead and unhappy, right, And each story

2114
02:06:53,400 --> 02:06:57,360
Speaker 1: would start with the poor peasant his brother gets rich,

2115
02:06:57,840 --> 02:07:01,320
Speaker 1: he asks for help. The brother like is horrible. Like

2116
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:04,520
Speaker 1: this is one story where this brother who's like, oh,

2117
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:08,080
Speaker 1: if you want some grain because you're starving, and then

2118
02:07:08,120 --> 02:07:10,240
Speaker 1: gouge out your own eye and I'll give you some grain.

2119
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:11,760
Speaker 1: And then it comes back from are grain later and

2120
02:07:11,760 --> 02:07:13,920
Speaker 1: he's like, gauge out your other eye. Now, chop off

2121
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:16,840
Speaker 1: your hand. And it's like they're so dark, and I'm like,

2122
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:21,760
Speaker 1: but this is reflecting what it was like to live

2123
02:07:22,120 --> 02:07:24,560
Speaker 1: in that world and grew up and you're preparing people

2124
02:07:24,800 --> 02:07:28,920
Speaker 1: for the realities. So um, you know, I think that

2125
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:32,280
Speaker 1: to me was really interesting and and her story tells

2126
02:07:32,280 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 1: this story that kind of to some extent, grows out

2127
02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:37,560
Speaker 1: of this childhood and then we're telling lies. Definitely, it

2128
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:44,360
Speaker 1: was part of this idea of of yeah, how Logan's

2129
02:07:44,400 --> 02:07:48,800
Speaker 1: character David sees the world and relates to his part

2130
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:51,320
Speaker 1: in it, and like his utter inability to realize that

2131
02:07:51,360 --> 02:07:53,840
Speaker 1: he's the bad guy in the story right and thinks

2132
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:56,960
Speaker 1: he's the good guy. Um, And and that was like

2133
02:07:57,040 --> 02:08:00,400
Speaker 1: that was partly the key to breaking his character, I

2134
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:02,520
Speaker 1: think was his daughter. So he has this character who's

2135
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:06,360
Speaker 1: the six seven year old daughter, and that's like, you know,

2136
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:09,840
Speaker 1: he lets down and does horrible things to a whole

2137
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:13,320
Speaker 1: bunch of people. Um, but the thing he's not going

2138
02:08:13,320 --> 02:08:15,400
Speaker 1: to be able to get over is knowing that he's

2139
02:08:15,440 --> 02:08:17,640
Speaker 1: laid his daughter down, right, knowing that at some point

2140
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:21,440
Speaker 1: she will grow up and be an adult woman who

2141
02:08:21,480 --> 02:08:24,760
Speaker 1: if she learns about what her father has done, we'll

2142
02:08:25,040 --> 02:08:28,360
Speaker 1: we'll think less of it and you know, we'll realize

2143
02:08:28,400 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 1: that he's the bad guy in the fairy tale whatever.

2144
02:08:30,640 --> 02:08:34,560
Speaker 1: So um, that was like just interesting to me to

2145
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: set him in that moment and have him reading those

2146
02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:42,840
Speaker 1: stories and see see his relationship with his daughter, and yeah,

2147
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:46,360
Speaker 1: I think that that, Yeah, he end up just relating

2148
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:48,960
Speaker 1: those things back to what are these these kind of

2149
02:08:48,960 --> 02:08:51,880
Speaker 1: base values and so much of those folk tales is

2150
02:08:51,920 --> 02:08:53,600
Speaker 1: preparing you for the fact that people are going to

2151
02:08:53,680 --> 02:08:55,880
Speaker 1: lie to you and trick you and you know all

2152
02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:59,360
Speaker 1: those kind of aspects. Yeah, well a lot of them

2153
02:08:59,400 --> 02:09:03,720
Speaker 1: do deal with, like, you know, failures of trusting people

2154
02:09:04,040 --> 02:09:06,600
Speaker 1: and you know, getting getting let down and being misled.

2155
02:09:06,640 --> 02:09:07,960
Speaker 1: A lot a lot of those do kind of follow

2156
02:09:07,960 --> 02:09:12,280
Speaker 1: on these same same kind of rough templates. UM. Let's see,

2157
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: is there anything you're working on now that you wanna

2158
02:09:14,960 --> 02:09:17,720
Speaker 1: that you wanna plug? Um? And of course you know

2159
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:20,600
Speaker 1: people should pick up Telling Lies her story. UM. I

2160
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:22,640
Speaker 1: have them on Steam. I think they are best suited

2161
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:25,120
Speaker 1: to be playing on PC, but you can get them

2162
02:09:25,120 --> 02:09:28,280
Speaker 1: on console. We can get them on iOS. But in

2163
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:33,760
Speaker 1: any anything anything upcoming? Yeah, we're working on currently. This

2164
02:09:34,120 --> 02:09:40,320
Speaker 1: project is called Immortality UM, which is very ambitious. Uh.

2165
02:09:40,480 --> 02:09:42,960
Speaker 1: It will be out next year. It deals with the

2166
02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:46,839
Speaker 1: story of an actress who only ever made three movies

2167
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:50,800
Speaker 1: the latter half the twentieth century UM, and then disappeared.

2168
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:55,880
Speaker 1: And we have recovered footage from these three movies. UM.

2169
02:09:56,680 --> 02:10:01,800
Speaker 1: It's been interesting because telling Lies, Like, I've always been

2170
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:05,120
Speaker 1: someone that when I think about the kinds of stories

2171
02:10:05,120 --> 02:10:06,840
Speaker 1: I want to tell, I've always thought that I'm not

2172
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:09,720
Speaker 1: a capital P politics person, right, I tend to be

2173
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:12,240
Speaker 1: interested in how people relate to each other and some

2174
02:10:12,320 --> 02:10:16,560
Speaker 1: of the kind of smaller politics. Um and once I

2175
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: got to telling lies, it was like, oh, actually, like

2176
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:22,920
Speaker 1: there is some capital P politics want to present tied

2177
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:26,000
Speaker 1: to all this, and so dug into that was like, well,

2178
02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:27,880
Speaker 1: so I want to do right by this. Right, So

2179
02:10:28,040 --> 02:10:30,040
Speaker 1: we did involve speaking to lots of people, did involve

2180
02:10:30,080 --> 02:10:32,400
Speaker 1: bringing in all the research and everything. Um. So coming

2181
02:10:32,400 --> 02:10:35,720
Speaker 1: away from telling lies, and as I mean, it was

2182
02:10:36,120 --> 02:10:41,480
Speaker 1: making the game was insane because it was during Trump, right,

2183
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:44,840
Speaker 1: Trump happens, and I remember going into it thing like,

2184
02:10:45,040 --> 02:10:49,280
Speaker 1: we're making this story about the FBI being bad. That's

2185
02:10:49,320 --> 02:10:52,880
Speaker 1: a pretty reasonable endpoint. And then once we hit Trump,

2186
02:10:52,920 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 1: you had all that stuff of like the good FBI

2187
02:10:54,680 --> 02:10:57,920
Speaker 1: agents and theory or THEBI might be the people that

2188
02:10:58,000 --> 02:11:01,720
Speaker 1: bring Trump down, and suddenly they it was leaning into

2189
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:03,600
Speaker 1: the myth of the FBI and I was looked down

2190
02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 1: it and just everything getting worse, and it was like, oh,

2191
02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:11,800
Speaker 1: this is like so intense to be making something and

2192
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:15,800
Speaker 1: speaking to some of these issues whilst this is all happening. Um. So,

2193
02:11:15,880 --> 02:11:18,120
Speaker 1: finishing that, I was like, well, okay, for the next project,

2194
02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:23,400
Speaker 1: we are definitely going away from talking about real life

2195
02:11:23,440 --> 02:11:27,640
Speaker 1: issues and capital P politics, and then just accidentally it's

2196
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:31,000
Speaker 1: become because we're talking about an actress in the twentieth

2197
02:11:31,040 --> 02:11:37,800
Speaker 1: century and what it means to make movies, and ah,

2198
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:41,720
Speaker 1: digging into that suddenly becomes about a whole other bunch

2199
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:46,600
Speaker 1: of systemic issues. So yeah, not not managed to avoid

2200
02:11:46,640 --> 02:11:49,240
Speaker 1: the politics again, but it's I've been a really really

2201
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:51,680
Speaker 1: interesting project. I think. I think once you crack that

2202
02:11:51,720 --> 02:11:54,960
Speaker 1: egg open of realizing that politics are kind of intrinsic

2203
02:11:55,000 --> 02:11:57,640
Speaker 1: to every story we tell, it's hard to hand. It's

2204
02:11:57,640 --> 02:11:59,280
Speaker 1: hard to kind of put that back in the box

2205
02:11:59,320 --> 02:12:01,600
Speaker 1: because once you're realized you can use politics in a

2206
02:12:01,760 --> 02:12:04,960
Speaker 1: very interesting and complex storytelling way that still doesn't alienate

2207
02:12:05,000 --> 02:12:07,760
Speaker 1: a lot of audiences. It's like, oh, yeah, this is

2208
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:10,560
Speaker 1: just using another way to interact with the world. I

2209
02:12:10,560 --> 02:12:13,120
Speaker 1: think that was that was one of the things that

2210
02:12:13,160 --> 02:12:16,640
Speaker 1: were slightly disappointing. I guess we're telling lies was like

2211
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:18,080
Speaker 1: we we're working on it. I'm like, we want to

2212
02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:20,200
Speaker 1: make sure we get these things right because like, these

2213
02:12:20,200 --> 02:12:23,240
Speaker 1: are very important issues and there are some nuances and

2214
02:12:23,280 --> 02:12:26,480
Speaker 1: so we you know, we don't want to accidentally say

2215
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:28,760
Speaker 1: something that is incorrect or we don't want to give

2216
02:12:28,800 --> 02:12:32,680
Speaker 1: people the impression that we're you know, yeah, yeah, yeah wrong. Um,

2217
02:12:32,960 --> 02:12:36,560
Speaker 1: So I was expecting some level of scrutiny in terms

2218
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:40,160
Speaker 1: of discussing the games themes and everything. Um and I

2219
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:42,800
Speaker 1: guess like the video games world is still not quite

2220
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:46,480
Speaker 1: ready for that. Like they're quite happy to talk about

2221
02:12:46,480 --> 02:12:48,440
Speaker 1: the game mechanics and how this thing will works since

2222
02:12:48,440 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 1: we big picture emotional responses, but no one's willing to

2223
02:12:52,480 --> 02:12:55,840
Speaker 1: kind of dig deeper. And we had like as the

2224
02:12:55,920 --> 02:12:58,000
Speaker 1: game was coming out and continues to be, you have

2225
02:12:58,760 --> 02:13:01,000
Speaker 1: the bigger name developers being like, there's no politics in

2226
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:05,560
Speaker 1: our video games. As they're like to make a game

2227
02:13:05,640 --> 02:13:09,640
Speaker 1: about you know, you know, being a black Ops unit

2228
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:11,960
Speaker 1: taking down communist countries. We're not gonna about politics. We're

2229
02:13:11,960 --> 02:13:17,600
Speaker 1: gonna yeah that constantly a constantly just saying it's it's

2230
02:13:17,640 --> 02:13:20,280
Speaker 1: possible that they'll always say we we both sides it right, Well,

2231
02:13:20,320 --> 02:13:22,480
Speaker 1: we'll tell both sides and let people make the decision.

2232
02:13:22,800 --> 02:13:25,720
Speaker 1: And something that was very adamant was very im porn

2233
02:13:25,800 --> 02:13:29,520
Speaker 1: to me on telling lies was like, if we're making

2234
02:13:29,560 --> 02:13:34,040
Speaker 1: this game, it is not the point of the game

2235
02:13:34,160 --> 02:13:37,560
Speaker 1: is not to give you a mush of information and

2236
02:13:37,760 --> 02:13:43,680
Speaker 1: have you decide the moral. Yeah, good or bad, something

2237
02:13:44,280 --> 02:13:48,120
Speaker 1: like we're going into this with the assumption that we

2238
02:13:48,200 --> 02:13:50,560
Speaker 1: in the audience or most of the audience believe that

2239
02:13:52,160 --> 02:13:54,640
Speaker 1: people doing these things are wrong, and then we're just

2240
02:13:54,760 --> 02:13:56,960
Speaker 1: And then I'm interested in what does it due to

2241
02:13:57,080 --> 02:13:59,120
Speaker 1: the people, What what is it like to be in

2242
02:13:59,160 --> 02:14:02,280
Speaker 1: this world? What are the consequences of ramifications? How does

2243
02:14:02,360 --> 02:14:05,080
Speaker 1: one exist and continue to live a life after having

2244
02:14:05,080 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 1: been involved in these things? So for me, a political

2245
02:14:08,120 --> 02:14:12,520
Speaker 1: game is it can't be the political story in any media.

2246
02:14:12,920 --> 02:14:16,240
Speaker 1: It can't be going back to first principles pretending we're

2247
02:14:16,280 --> 02:14:18,240
Speaker 1: in debate club, because I just I think that's just

2248
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:21,600
Speaker 1: that's absolutely lies the audience. I think you can say

2249
02:14:22,160 --> 02:14:26,240
Speaker 1: a political story is one which embraces and acknowledges the

2250
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:30,080
Speaker 1: reality of the various power struggles and inequalities that we

2251
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:33,000
Speaker 1: have and then has something to say about or has

2252
02:14:33,000 --> 02:14:35,680
Speaker 1: a particular angle it wants to interrogate, or something it

2253
02:14:35,680 --> 02:14:38,760
Speaker 1: wants to shed light on. But it's very childish, and

2254
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:41,760
Speaker 1: I think we're definitely struggling with this in video games,

2255
02:14:41,800 --> 02:14:44,880
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, if it's about politics, then it

2256
02:14:44,880 --> 02:14:48,320
Speaker 1: should be a big question and we should assume no answers, right,

2257
02:14:48,320 --> 02:14:51,440
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, this is a completely bullshit and

2258
02:14:51,440 --> 02:14:54,400
Speaker 1: and it kind of it can lead to some problematic ways,

2259
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:56,640
Speaker 1: which is why you see a lot of you know,

2260
02:14:56,720 --> 02:15:01,960
Speaker 1: game footage in actual like harorist propaganda, like with like

2261
02:15:01,960 --> 02:15:03,920
Speaker 1: like with like not sayings and white supremacist stuff. They

2262
02:15:04,040 --> 02:15:06,879
Speaker 1: use a lot of game footage in their propaganda videos

2263
02:15:07,120 --> 02:15:09,760
Speaker 1: when especially when it's like both sides of these issues. Yeah,

2264
02:15:09,920 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: it's a I have I have a particular interest in

2265
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:15,560
Speaker 1: the intersection between like politics, extremism, and gaming because the

2266
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:19,200
Speaker 1: gaming is very important to our modern kind of extremist

2267
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:22,720
Speaker 1: ecosystem um, particularly around like four Chan and like you know,

2268
02:15:22,720 --> 02:15:25,360
Speaker 1: like mass shootings. All of these things play into game culture.

2269
02:15:25,480 --> 02:15:27,800
Speaker 1: Not not not saying games cause these events to happen, because

2270
02:15:27,840 --> 02:15:30,960
Speaker 1: they don't, but like the way they interact with these

2271
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:33,560
Speaker 1: people is actually interesting. You know, this is very different

2272
02:15:33,560 --> 02:15:34,880
Speaker 1: from like the way like this Senate is like, oh,

2273
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:37,040
Speaker 1: games are causing mass shooting because they're not. Yeah, I

2274
02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:39,920
Speaker 1: think it's it's it's it's it's it's a completely separate thing.

2275
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:43,480
Speaker 1: It's it's there is there is a Fox News kind

2276
02:15:43,480 --> 02:15:47,200
Speaker 1: of hysteria around gaming. But at the same time, like

2277
02:15:47,360 --> 02:15:50,240
Speaker 1: and and clearly, you know, one way I pitched her story.

2278
02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:52,280
Speaker 1: When I was telling people why it was interesting, It's like,

2279
02:15:52,320 --> 02:15:54,640
Speaker 1: this is a game about listening. I was like, that's

2280
02:15:54,720 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 1: cool because you know, whatever you think about the larger

2281
02:15:59,160 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 1: politics of it, or or the question of whether video

2282
02:16:01,680 --> 02:16:04,760
Speaker 1: games themselves are inherently harmful or anything like, the fact

2283
02:16:04,760 --> 02:16:07,960
Speaker 1: that's still the stories we tell are about someone with

2284
02:16:08,000 --> 02:16:09,640
Speaker 1: a gun in their hand or assault in their hand,

2285
02:16:10,160 --> 02:16:13,520
Speaker 1: and the power dynamics and the story the types of

2286
02:16:13,560 --> 02:16:17,200
Speaker 1: stories and the types of protagonists, Like, it's screwed up.

2287
02:16:17,280 --> 02:16:20,160
Speaker 1: And I think to the same extent that the fact that,

2288
02:16:20,240 --> 02:16:24,120
Speaker 1: like the Marvel Cinematic Universe is about a bunch of

2289
02:16:24,120 --> 02:16:28,280
Speaker 1: glorified cops going around saying in the world, like, you know,

2290
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:32,920
Speaker 1: if you continue to reinforce these things, yeahbously, all of

2291
02:16:32,959 --> 02:16:35,520
Speaker 1: the art we make are saying certain things about the world,

2292
02:16:35,640 --> 02:16:38,040
Speaker 1: and we're reinforcing a certain narrative over and over again

2293
02:16:38,240 --> 02:16:40,960
Speaker 1: and not really thinking critically about it. Yeah, that's a

2294
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:44,400
Speaker 1: problem with making art. I mean, I'm not trying to

2295
02:16:44,440 --> 02:16:46,200
Speaker 1: conf as being anti gamer. I would play a lot

2296
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:48,600
Speaker 1: of games. I really like gaming. I just think some

2297
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:53,120
Speaker 1: some companies need to figure out why why certain games

2298
02:16:53,160 --> 02:16:57,360
Speaker 1: are used in mass shooting manifestoes in certain games aren't

2299
02:16:58,120 --> 02:17:01,360
Speaker 1: particularly around like politics, like the particularly talking about like

2300
02:17:01,360 --> 02:17:04,320
Speaker 1: white supremacy, and how certain games kind of playing too

2301
02:17:04,360 --> 02:17:06,760
Speaker 1: certain things. Because even even a game like wilfon Stein,

2302
02:17:06,800 --> 02:17:09,280
Speaker 1: which I think handles this topic very well, still will

2303
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:11,959
Speaker 1: you know, get brought up in certain you know, propagandi

2304
02:17:12,040 --> 02:17:14,920
Speaker 1: videos because they do have cool shots of Nazis walking around. Right,

2305
02:17:14,920 --> 02:17:18,439
Speaker 1: that's the kind of the problem with some of these things. Um.

2306
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:20,320
Speaker 1: And you know, if they weren't killing if Nazis weren't

2307
02:17:20,400 --> 02:17:21,880
Speaker 1: killing people as much as wouldn't be as much of

2308
02:17:21,879 --> 02:17:24,400
Speaker 1: a problem. But because that's still a thing, that's still

2309
02:17:24,400 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 1: a thing that needs to get talked about. Anyway, this

2310
02:17:27,440 --> 02:17:30,240
Speaker 1: this this took a very sad sad turned towards the

2311
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:33,840
Speaker 1: end of anyway. Yeah, I will, I will, I will

2312
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:38,640
Speaker 1: just strongly recommend playing her story, playing telling lies. I

2313
02:17:38,680 --> 02:17:45,080
Speaker 1: think these games, you know, interrogate our our predispositions about

2314
02:17:45,160 --> 02:17:49,480
Speaker 1: about kind of police detective work, um, and you just

2315
02:17:49,480 --> 02:17:50,720
Speaker 1: get to learn a lot. You get to learn a

2316
02:17:50,720 --> 02:17:52,840
Speaker 1: lot about like people on characters because like a lot

2317
02:17:52,840 --> 02:17:54,320
Speaker 1: of these games, you know where the setup is, like, oh,

2318
02:17:54,360 --> 02:17:57,360
Speaker 1: solve this crime or mystery. But then by the end,

2319
02:17:57,400 --> 02:17:59,440
Speaker 1: you're solving a very different mystery and you're kind of

2320
02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:01,760
Speaker 1: solving what makes the person tick, and it's very You've

2321
02:18:02,240 --> 02:18:04,039
Speaker 1: I really like the art that you have in your games.

2322
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:07,200
Speaker 1: They've brought me a lot of happiness. So thank you.

2323
02:18:07,200 --> 02:18:09,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and thank you for talking with

2324
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:14,800
Speaker 1: all of us, um about your work. I'm jo, thank you,

2325
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:17,360
Speaker 1: thank you for having me and uh yeah, like I say,

2326
02:18:17,480 --> 02:18:21,640
Speaker 1: I was, I was hoping to have hundreds more conversations

2327
02:18:21,680 --> 02:18:25,279
Speaker 1: about what Telling Lies was about and about these issues

2328
02:18:25,400 --> 02:18:28,720
Speaker 1: when it came out. But it's uh, you know that,

2329
02:18:29,560 --> 02:18:33,040
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's hot just general media landscape now,

2330
02:18:33,080 --> 02:18:34,760
Speaker 1: like you put something out there and it comes out

2331
02:18:34,800 --> 02:18:37,680
Speaker 1: and people consume it, Yeah, move on, Like you don't

2332
02:18:37,760 --> 02:18:43,720
Speaker 1: have that it's bad of like discussion that I don't know,

2333
02:18:43,800 --> 02:18:45,840
Speaker 1: it feels like it used to used to be a thing. Yeah,

2334
02:18:46,040 --> 02:18:47,640
Speaker 1: I think it definitely did did used to be a thing.

2335
02:18:47,680 --> 02:18:52,360
Speaker 1: And definitely your games have had an influence on media

2336
02:18:52,440 --> 02:18:54,320
Speaker 1: in certain ways. And I know there's been like a

2337
02:18:54,320 --> 02:18:56,480
Speaker 1: few other like projects that like Netflix is doing that

2338
02:18:56,640 --> 02:18:58,920
Speaker 1: is kind of taking your concept but not really doing

2339
02:18:58,920 --> 02:19:04,200
Speaker 1: it correctly. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's definitely been a lot. Yeah,

2340
02:19:04,200 --> 02:19:06,040
Speaker 1: people always send me them. They're like, oh, this sounds

2341
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:08,760
Speaker 1: a lot like a story, this thing, and it's like, oh,

2342
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:13,959
Speaker 1: but it's it's build non linear. Yeah, exactly like you

2343
02:19:14,040 --> 02:19:16,560
Speaker 1: let people. I don't. Yeah. Usually it's like watch the

2344
02:19:16,760 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 1: eight episodes. You can watch them in any order, which

2345
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:21,600
Speaker 1: isn't how her story works. No, yeah, like, yeah, there's

2346
02:19:21,680 --> 02:19:23,240
Speaker 1: there's a yeah, there's a whole different thing going on.

2347
02:19:23,520 --> 02:19:27,120
Speaker 1: But no, I mean it's it's interesting times for that

2348
02:19:27,160 --> 02:19:31,599
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But anyway, play these games on Steam

2349
02:19:31,640 --> 02:19:33,959
Speaker 1: and that that doesn't for today. You can follow the

2350
02:19:33,959 --> 02:19:36,800
Speaker 1: show on Twitter and Instagram, at Happening here pod and

2351
02:19:36,959 --> 02:19:39,240
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Do you have Do you have a

2352
02:19:39,280 --> 02:19:41,160
Speaker 1: social media that you would like to plug or would

2353
02:19:41,200 --> 02:19:46,120
Speaker 1: your people? If people are on Twitter, that's where I

2354
02:19:46,160 --> 02:19:50,160
Speaker 1: tend to be despite its despite yeah, I know, I am.

2355
02:19:50,200 --> 02:19:54,440
Speaker 1: I am Mr Sambalow on Twitter, Mr sambal I will

2356
02:19:54,440 --> 02:19:57,080
Speaker 1: say I I actually I actually do like your Twitter account.

2357
02:19:57,240 --> 02:19:59,480
Speaker 1: You do. You do post some fun stuff every once

2358
02:19:59,520 --> 02:20:04,119
Speaker 1: in a while. That's that's kind of a weird contescen

2359
02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:14,000
Speaker 1: thing we think to say of anyway, by for Puddy,

2360
02:20:14,640 --> 02:20:17,240
Speaker 1: that's gonna that's gonna be way too jarring to open

2361
02:20:17,280 --> 02:20:21,080
Speaker 1: an episode ware, Well, we already did it, so keep moving. Yeah,

2362
02:20:21,200 --> 02:20:24,280
Speaker 1: uh huh. Um, the episode is actually gonna start with

2363
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:27,600
Speaker 1: Garrison saying that's way too jarring to open an episode with,

2364
02:20:27,680 --> 02:20:30,440
Speaker 1: and the listeners won't know that that is a much

2365
02:20:30,440 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 1: easier opening. Um, alright, so we're doing I'm gonna be

2366
02:20:35,400 --> 02:20:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be reading a thing today and then we're

2367
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:40,039
Speaker 1: going to talk about the thing that we're reading. Um,

2368
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:44,199
Speaker 1: and and and who are you? And who is here? Oh? Yeah,

2369
02:20:44,240 --> 02:20:46,720
Speaker 1: this is it happen here, this is it could happen here.

2370
02:20:47,000 --> 02:20:52,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm Garrison, I am our resident Canadian. Yeah, that's Anderson.

2371
02:20:53,280 --> 02:20:55,160
Speaker 1: That's Anderson the dog in here. We had we had

2372
02:20:55,200 --> 02:20:59,640
Speaker 1: to hire a Canadian for a diversity quota. You don't

2373
02:21:00,040 --> 02:21:05,520
Speaker 1: you do not anyway, we have Chris here, Robert Evans

2374
02:21:05,520 --> 02:21:10,200
Speaker 1: as usual, um, and Sophie. So we're gonna talk about

2375
02:21:10,360 --> 02:21:12,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk a little bit about about Canada today.

2376
02:21:12,879 --> 02:21:17,240
Speaker 1: So in the in like descripted what if scenarios first

2377
02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:19,800
Speaker 1: positive in the original it could happen here. Um. It

2378
02:21:19,840 --> 02:21:21,800
Speaker 1: detailed what it might be like to live in the

2379
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:25,600
Speaker 1: United States during a modern civil conflict. And like one

2380
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:27,680
Speaker 1: of the stories that we kind of tell ourselves as

2381
02:21:27,680 --> 02:21:30,120
Speaker 1: a culture is about you know, crossing up into the

2382
02:21:30,120 --> 02:21:34,880
Speaker 1: safe haven of Canada whenever stuff breaks out in the States. Um,

2383
02:21:35,000 --> 02:21:37,000
Speaker 1: whether that be like an escape from just the hell

2384
02:21:37,040 --> 02:21:39,880
Speaker 1: that's us politics, um, or you know, going up into

2385
02:21:39,959 --> 02:21:43,240
Speaker 1: the cold northern terrain better equipped to deal with climate change.

2386
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:46,280
Speaker 1: Canada is kind of just viewed as a bass gien

2387
02:21:46,320 --> 02:21:49,720
Speaker 1: of like of liberal democracy in North America. UM. You know,

2388
02:21:49,760 --> 02:21:51,760
Speaker 1: I've I've made jokes in the past about using my

2389
02:21:51,800 --> 02:21:54,480
Speaker 1: Canadian passport to escape up into the forest of Alberta

2390
02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:57,280
Speaker 1: when things get too dicey here in the States. But

2391
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:01,000
Speaker 1: this like weird utopian view of Canada, uh is not

2392
02:22:01,120 --> 02:22:05,840
Speaker 1: just wrong about Canada's current political state, but also assumes

2393
02:22:05,879 --> 02:22:08,320
Speaker 1: that Canada is like immune to the political shifts that

2394
02:22:08,320 --> 02:22:11,160
Speaker 1: the States have gone through the past few years. Which

2395
02:22:11,200 --> 02:22:16,240
Speaker 1: is it's it's very obviously not um so like Canada

2396
02:22:16,440 --> 02:22:19,800
Speaker 1: internationally is and specifically in the States, it's it's used

2397
02:22:19,800 --> 02:22:21,680
Speaker 1: as like, you know, Canada, it's it's used it's like

2398
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:25,360
Speaker 1: America's little brother, but it's you know, it's much more

2399
02:22:25,600 --> 02:22:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, democratic, it's much more liberal. It's like it's

2400
02:22:28,120 --> 02:22:31,400
Speaker 1: like this kind of ideal scenario for like what the

2401
02:22:31,480 --> 02:22:35,200
Speaker 1: state's could be, and like Canadians have a weird view

2402
02:22:35,240 --> 02:22:38,560
Speaker 1: of the States as well. Like Canadians, they're both like

2403
02:22:38,720 --> 02:22:40,760
Speaker 1: the like they're kind of obsessed, Like a lot of

2404
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:43,360
Speaker 1: Canadians think no more about US politics and then they

2405
02:22:43,400 --> 02:22:47,080
Speaker 1: know about Canadian politics, um, but almost in like a

2406
02:22:47,120 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 1: way that we watch sports. It's it's like it's like

2407
02:22:49,959 --> 02:22:52,959
Speaker 1: this thing that we like watch as entertainment, like like

2408
02:22:53,000 --> 02:22:55,240
Speaker 1: some kind of like sick reality show. That's how I

2409
02:22:55,320 --> 02:22:58,400
Speaker 1: think a lot of Canadians really view US politics, um,

2410
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:02,480
Speaker 1: because it's just so wacky compared to the kind of

2411
02:23:02,480 --> 02:23:05,280
Speaker 1: more like civil parliamentary system that we have in Canada.

2412
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:08,880
Speaker 1: US politics just looks very, very bizarre, and there's always

2413
02:23:08,920 --> 02:23:11,680
Speaker 1: this notion it's like, no matter how bad things can

2414
02:23:11,720 --> 02:23:14,320
Speaker 1: get in Canada, at least we're not the States. At

2415
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:16,480
Speaker 1: least at least we're not at least we're not the US.

2416
02:23:16,920 --> 02:23:18,640
Speaker 1: And that is kind of a lot of a lot

2417
02:23:18,720 --> 02:23:20,880
Speaker 1: of how a lot of stuff can get really get

2418
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:26,720
Speaker 1: can just like surviving Canada longer, because it's just they

2419
02:23:26,840 --> 02:23:29,920
Speaker 1: view it like at least, at least we're not as

2420
02:23:29,920 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 1: bad as the other people. So that's how you know

2421
02:23:33,000 --> 02:23:34,880
Speaker 1: it gives them kind of some kind of sense of security.

2422
02:23:35,160 --> 02:23:37,680
Speaker 1: But in terms of like, in terms of Canada as

2423
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:40,040
Speaker 1: a country, you know, we we we've said that Canada

2424
02:23:40,080 --> 02:23:42,600
Speaker 1: as a country is basically just you know, a few

2425
02:23:42,640 --> 02:23:44,840
Speaker 1: mining companies in a trench coat, and the trench coat

2426
02:23:44,920 --> 02:23:47,520
Speaker 1: is healthcare. Um. And that's that's really all they are

2427
02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:51,280
Speaker 1: is as as as a country. UM. But today we're

2428
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:56,520
Speaker 1: gonna be talking about kind of Canada's slide towards farther

2429
02:23:56,720 --> 02:24:00,680
Speaker 1: right wing politics, UM. Both you know, historically and then

2430
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:02,760
Speaker 1: more recently, because a lot of what we've seen in

2431
02:24:02,760 --> 02:24:05,760
Speaker 1: the States has happened kind of in its own weird

2432
02:24:05,920 --> 02:24:09,600
Speaker 1: Canadian way around the same time. UM. But before we

2433
02:24:09,600 --> 02:24:12,080
Speaker 1: really before we really get started, I think it would

2434
02:24:12,080 --> 02:24:14,200
Speaker 1: be remiss not to mention how the Canadian government has

2435
02:24:14,240 --> 02:24:17,720
Speaker 1: historically treated Indigenous and First Nations people um, living on

2436
02:24:17,760 --> 02:24:21,000
Speaker 1: that land. Of course, it's like not only just hundreds

2437
02:24:20,959 --> 02:24:22,880
Speaker 1: of years ago, but a lot more recently as well.

2438
02:24:23,120 --> 02:24:25,120
Speaker 1: Just in the past year, there have been thousands and

2439
02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:28,400
Speaker 1: thousands of like hidden graves found across the provinces at

2440
02:24:28,440 --> 02:24:31,520
Speaker 1: the sites of these residential schools. UM. And the process

2441
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:33,880
Speaker 1: of looking for these on Martin graves has like just

2442
02:24:33,879 --> 02:24:38,199
Speaker 1: just started. UM. The Canadian Historical Association published a letter

2443
02:24:38,280 --> 02:24:41,039
Speaker 1: this past Canada Day Canada Day is like Independence Day

2444
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:44,920
Speaker 1: but for Canada, UM, saying that it was abundantly clear

2445
02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:48,400
Speaker 1: that Canada is guilty of is guilty of genocide. UM.

2446
02:24:48,440 --> 02:24:51,400
Speaker 1: I know there's there's a few episodes behind the Bastards, UM,

2447
02:24:51,440 --> 02:24:53,360
Speaker 1: and I think even worse here that that talk about

2448
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:58,160
Speaker 1: residential schools UM and and the genocide of Indigenous Canada.

2449
02:24:58,320 --> 02:24:59,840
Speaker 1: So you can you can check those out. And I

2450
02:25:00,160 --> 02:25:03,879
Speaker 1: this episode to be more focused on Canada's political shifts

2451
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:05,840
Speaker 1: the past five years. But since we're talking to be

2452
02:25:05,879 --> 02:25:08,680
Speaker 1: talking about Canadian fascism, I thought it would be irresponsible

2453
02:25:08,680 --> 02:25:13,920
Speaker 1: to not mention this upfront as like a thing responsible responsible.

2454
02:25:14,040 --> 02:25:16,640
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna try to take us through aspects of

2455
02:25:16,680 --> 02:25:21,160
Speaker 1: Canadians of Canada's politics chronologically. UM. You guys can button

2456
02:25:21,200 --> 02:25:24,480
Speaker 1: and kind of ask questions and clarifications about stuff. UM.

2457
02:25:24,560 --> 02:25:26,320
Speaker 1: But the first thing that we're gonna start with is

2458
02:25:26,320 --> 02:25:28,520
Speaker 1: actually going to be on the First Nations side of things,

2459
02:25:28,600 --> 02:25:30,840
Speaker 1: and that that's kind of how that that's what mostly

2460
02:25:30,879 --> 02:25:33,760
Speaker 1: Indigenous people are called in Canada's First Nations. UM. Even

2461
02:25:33,800 --> 02:25:36,040
Speaker 1: you know the Indigenous people up in Canada, most amuse

2462
02:25:36,160 --> 02:25:37,720
Speaker 1: that term. So that's the term I'll be using for

2463
02:25:37,800 --> 02:25:39,360
Speaker 1: some some of this stuff, just because that's the one

2464
02:25:39,400 --> 02:25:46,040
Speaker 1: that's used up there. Um. So the the residential School's

2465
02:25:46,040 --> 02:25:48,160
Speaker 1: program is where I'm gonna briefly mention a few things

2466
02:25:48,200 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 1: about it, just because of how it kind of relates

2467
02:25:50,160 --> 02:25:51,680
Speaker 1: to some of the stuff that we're gonna be talking

2468
02:25:51,720 --> 02:25:55,119
Speaker 1: with for the rest of the episode. UM Yeah, I'm

2469
02:25:55,280 --> 02:25:57,440
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna read someone. I'm gonna read some words

2470
02:25:57,920 --> 02:26:01,680
Speaker 1: by by Duncan Can Bull Scott. Who was the department

2471
02:26:01,879 --> 02:26:05,280
Speaker 1: Who was who was the Deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs.

2472
02:26:05,360 --> 02:26:08,600
Speaker 1: This was like a rank in the Canadian government. Um.

2473
02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:11,920
Speaker 1: He served as the Deputy Superintendent from nineteen thirteen to

2474
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:14,840
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty two. UM. And he's arguably like the main

2475
02:26:14,959 --> 02:26:18,080
Speaker 1: architect of the residential schools program. Um he was. He

2476
02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:21,600
Speaker 1: was also good friends with the first Prime Minister of Canada,

2477
02:26:21,720 --> 02:26:27,240
Speaker 1: John John John McDonald. So here's here's here's how this

2478
02:26:27,280 --> 02:26:31,680
Speaker 1: guy the the architect of this program. This is this

2479
02:26:31,760 --> 02:26:34,400
Speaker 1: is how he kind of talked talked about this in

2480
02:26:34,480 --> 02:26:37,440
Speaker 1: letters to both his like his underlings and just like

2481
02:26:37,520 --> 02:26:41,480
Speaker 1: openly quote it is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose

2482
02:26:41,520 --> 02:26:44,680
Speaker 1: their natural resistance to illness by habituating so close in

2483
02:26:44,720 --> 02:26:46,720
Speaker 1: the residential schools, and that they die at a much

2484
02:26:46,800 --> 02:26:49,280
Speaker 1: higher rate than in their villages. But this does not

2485
02:26:49,360 --> 02:26:51,560
Speaker 1: justify a change in the policy of this department, which

2486
02:26:51,600 --> 02:26:55,439
Speaker 1: is geared towards a final solution for our Indian problem.

2487
02:26:55,480 --> 02:26:57,119
Speaker 1: It is quite within the market to say that fifty

2488
02:26:57,160 --> 02:26:59,440
Speaker 1: percent of children who passed through these schools did not

2489
02:26:59,480 --> 02:27:01,240
Speaker 1: live to ben of fit from the education in which

2490
02:27:01,280 --> 02:27:05,600
Speaker 1: they had received. So that's that's just what he calls it.

2491
02:27:05,720 --> 02:27:08,320
Speaker 1: He he says, the final solution to the Indian problem.

2492
02:27:08,320 --> 02:27:12,040
Speaker 1: It's very very very clear. What what like that? That's

2493
02:27:12,080 --> 02:27:14,320
Speaker 1: just the language he uses. And this was like before

2494
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:18,879
Speaker 1: Hitler though, like this was this was attention to these Yeah,

2495
02:27:19,040 --> 02:27:20,600
Speaker 1: yeah like this. This is just like this is the

2496
02:27:20,640 --> 02:27:22,920
Speaker 1: mindset of all of these same people. This is all

2497
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:27,080
Speaker 1: of all of the same thing. Um. Another another another

2498
02:27:27,160 --> 02:27:29,680
Speaker 1: quote from this dude is I want to get rid

2499
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:31,320
Speaker 1: of the Indian problem. I do not think of it

2500
02:27:31,360 --> 02:27:33,120
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact that the country ought to

2501
02:27:33,160 --> 02:27:35,800
Speaker 1: continually protect a class of people who are able to

2502
02:27:35,840 --> 02:27:38,600
Speaker 1: stand alone. That's my whole point our objective is to

2503
02:27:38,600 --> 02:27:41,160
Speaker 1: continue until there's not a single Indian in Canada that

2504
02:27:41,160 --> 02:27:44,120
Speaker 1: has not been absorbed into the into the body politic,

2505
02:27:44,240 --> 02:27:47,800
Speaker 1: and there's no Indian question and no Indian department. That

2506
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:50,560
Speaker 1: is the whole objective of this bill. The bill referring

2507
02:27:50,560 --> 02:27:55,160
Speaker 1: to the residential schools program. So that's that's how he

2508
02:27:55,240 --> 02:27:57,600
Speaker 1: talks about these things. Um. There there's other letters that

2509
02:27:57,680 --> 02:28:01,440
Speaker 1: he's sent that's like telling is um his like agents

2510
02:28:01,440 --> 02:28:04,879
Speaker 1: because he had like agents stationed at at Canadian at

2511
02:28:04,879 --> 02:28:08,840
Speaker 1: Canadian reserves to like not let Indians do dancing because

2512
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:11,360
Speaker 1: both that's you know, that's doing their cultural practice, but

2513
02:28:11,360 --> 02:28:13,360
Speaker 1: also it will distract them from learning how to do

2514
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:16,320
Speaker 1: Western farming. Um. Like they weren't allowed to go to

2515
02:28:16,480 --> 02:28:20,840
Speaker 1: fairs or exhibitions or anything that you like that anything

2516
02:28:20,879 --> 02:28:23,360
Speaker 1: that has like that is reminiscent of like any kind

2517
02:28:23,360 --> 02:28:28,039
Speaker 1: of cultural tradition that is not white in European. Um.

2518
02:28:28,160 --> 02:28:30,840
Speaker 1: So he he is, he is a pretty pretty pretty

2519
02:28:30,879 --> 02:28:33,360
Speaker 1: bad dude. He probably deserves his own his own thing

2520
02:28:33,520 --> 02:28:35,920
Speaker 1: that this this specific guy. But you can can you

2521
02:28:35,920 --> 02:28:37,800
Speaker 1: can kind of see like these like fascist ideas and

2522
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:40,480
Speaker 1: rhetoric are not foreign to Canada. Um. And you know

2523
02:28:40,560 --> 02:28:44,720
Speaker 1: it's been there since its infancy. Now, Canadian politics is

2524
02:28:44,800 --> 02:28:47,640
Speaker 1: very different in a lot of ways compared to American politics. Uh.

2525
02:28:47,720 --> 02:28:50,440
Speaker 1: Canada tries to kind of follow the European model, whereas

2526
02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:52,840
Speaker 1: America is very much like the rebel state that tries

2527
02:28:52,879 --> 02:28:55,360
Speaker 1: to play on its play by its own rules. Um.

2528
02:28:55,560 --> 02:28:58,680
Speaker 1: Kind of the first main difference is that Canada isn't

2529
02:28:58,680 --> 02:29:01,920
Speaker 1: a two party system. Um. It's it's more like a

2530
02:29:01,959 --> 02:29:04,240
Speaker 1: two party plus system, because yeah, there still is the

2531
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:06,480
Speaker 1: main Liberals and the main Conservatives, but there are there

2532
02:29:06,480 --> 02:29:09,560
Speaker 1: are other parties that actually can get elected. Um. And

2533
02:29:09,600 --> 02:29:11,760
Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not like a strictly two party

2534
02:29:11,760 --> 02:29:13,760
Speaker 1: system the same way the States is. So that makes

2535
02:29:13,800 --> 02:29:17,760
Speaker 1: things more interesting. Um. And another thing that's really interesting

2536
02:29:17,760 --> 02:29:20,600
Speaker 1: about like a cultural politics that's that's different from the States.

2537
02:29:20,720 --> 02:29:22,840
Speaker 1: You know. Besides, you know, Canada obviously has like a

2538
02:29:22,879 --> 02:29:27,640
Speaker 1: parliament and a prime minister. That's different, but that Canada

2539
02:29:28,280 --> 02:29:33,000
Speaker 1: view and Canadians view nationalism and patriotism very differently, uh,

2540
02:29:33,040 --> 02:29:38,760
Speaker 1: compared to to like United States. Um. Citizens patriotism and

2541
02:29:38,800 --> 02:29:41,760
Speaker 1: in some ways nationalism have always been kind of more

2542
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:45,199
Speaker 1: of a liberal, progressive thing, um. You know, in opposition

2543
02:29:45,240 --> 02:29:48,120
Speaker 1: to the states where it is not really seen as

2544
02:29:48,120 --> 02:29:51,400
Speaker 1: a liberal progressive thing. Um. It's like, even under conservative leadership,

2545
02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:54,320
Speaker 1: Canada kind of prides itself as as sort of like

2546
02:29:54,440 --> 02:29:57,000
Speaker 1: liberal utopia. And that's where a lot of the patriotism

2547
02:29:57,000 --> 02:29:59,520
Speaker 1: and celebration of Canada comes from among its you know,

2548
02:29:59,560 --> 02:30:02,760
Speaker 1: mostly liberal and more socially progressive citizens. They like celebrate

2549
02:30:02,800 --> 02:30:05,840
Speaker 1: Canada as like this great progressive nation, and that's where

2550
02:30:05,840 --> 02:30:08,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the patriotism comes from, is like, oh,

2551
02:30:08,280 --> 02:30:11,879
Speaker 1: look look how progressive we are. Um. Then the nationalism

2552
02:30:11,920 --> 02:30:14,200
Speaker 1: part can be a bit more tricky, uh, because you

2553
02:30:14,240 --> 02:30:17,320
Speaker 1: first need to understand like the English and French divide

2554
02:30:17,760 --> 02:30:20,560
Speaker 1: which within the country, which I barely understand that to

2555
02:30:20,840 --> 02:30:22,560
Speaker 1: be honest. I was I was, I was. I was

2556
02:30:22,600 --> 02:30:25,039
Speaker 1: born in the Prairies. That was you know, much more

2557
02:30:25,080 --> 02:30:29,200
Speaker 1: of like the Protestant English Ilish English settlement. You know,

2558
02:30:29,240 --> 02:30:31,800
Speaker 1: I'm not from Quebec, but we'll be talking about Quebec

2559
02:30:31,840 --> 02:30:33,440
Speaker 1: a lot here because it is very important to how

2560
02:30:33,560 --> 02:30:37,240
Speaker 1: nationalism works in Canada. So the divide between the French

2561
02:30:37,240 --> 02:30:41,199
Speaker 1: and the English make elections really interesting because the English

2562
02:30:41,240 --> 02:30:44,520
Speaker 1: majority politicians usually need to court some of the French

2563
02:30:44,560 --> 02:30:48,039
Speaker 1: Canadian population and and people in Quebec in order to

2564
02:30:48,040 --> 02:30:51,320
Speaker 1: get enough parliamentary seats to have a majority government, because

2565
02:30:51,760 --> 02:30:55,680
Speaker 1: Canada works on having a majority within the parliament. Um,

2566
02:30:55,879 --> 02:30:58,160
Speaker 1: you can have a minority in in in the parliament

2567
02:30:58,160 --> 02:31:00,640
Speaker 1: like the Liberals currently have. So even if you know,

2568
02:31:00,760 --> 02:31:02,920
Speaker 1: someone doesn't win a plurality of votes, that can still

2569
02:31:02,959 --> 02:31:04,959
Speaker 1: be in control of the government in an in a

2570
02:31:04,959 --> 02:31:07,520
Speaker 1: minority or usually a majority capacity. We'll get into this

2571
02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:11,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff later. Um. But even though they need

2572
02:31:11,200 --> 02:31:13,800
Speaker 1: to get seats from Quebec to have you know, a

2573
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:16,760
Speaker 1: decent control of parliament, Quebec kind of likes to act

2574
02:31:16,760 --> 02:31:19,800
Speaker 1: like its own special country. Um. They even have their

2575
02:31:19,800 --> 02:31:23,480
Speaker 1: own like federal political party, uh, the Block Kepuqua and

2576
02:31:23,640 --> 02:31:25,400
Speaker 1: so like that. That that's a that's a federal party

2577
02:31:25,440 --> 02:31:30,400
Speaker 1: that operates in forwarding the interests of Quebec. Sometimes it

2578
02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 1: functions as like a separatist party, but not really anymore. Um. So,

2579
02:31:35,120 --> 02:31:40,040
Speaker 1: although the Block Keuqua is a lot is a lot

2580
02:31:40,120 --> 02:31:43,600
Speaker 1: more secular and progressive than basically any any other major

2581
02:31:43,640 --> 02:31:46,960
Speaker 1: party outside of the n d P UM but despite

2582
02:31:46,959 --> 02:31:49,600
Speaker 1: them being much more like socially progressive that are also

2583
02:31:49,840 --> 02:31:53,240
Speaker 1: like one of the biggest nationalist parties um in Canada,

2584
02:31:53,680 --> 02:31:57,400
Speaker 1: and you know, the far right parties in Canada have

2585
02:31:57,600 --> 02:32:00,400
Speaker 1: had always had their you know, brand of ethno nationalism,

2586
02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:03,959
Speaker 1: but that was that's that's been much less pronounced than

2587
02:32:04,000 --> 02:32:06,760
Speaker 1: the kind of like keep non French Canadians out of

2588
02:32:06,800 --> 02:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Quebec and keep Americans out of Canada type of nationalism

2589
02:32:10,200 --> 02:32:13,320
Speaker 1: that's common with like liberals UM and specifically you know,

2590
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:16,600
Speaker 1: progressives inside Quebec, which you can't blame them for wanting

2591
02:32:16,640 --> 02:32:19,760
Speaker 1: to keep Americans no, yeah, like you can good sense.

2592
02:32:19,840 --> 02:32:22,440
Speaker 1: If I could keep Americans out of America, I would

2593
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:25,360
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah. But so that kind of sentiment, you

2594
02:32:25,360 --> 02:32:28,240
Speaker 1: can see how that connect, like you know, be used

2595
02:32:28,280 --> 02:32:32,200
Speaker 1: to foster some not good things though that that that

2596
02:32:32,200 --> 02:32:35,080
Speaker 1: that specific type of thinking of of like keeping nationals,

2597
02:32:35,120 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 1: like you know, keeping four nationals out of your state. Yeah,

2598
02:32:38,440 --> 02:32:40,720
Speaker 1: it's good to not have Americans there, but you know

2599
02:32:40,800 --> 02:32:45,400
Speaker 1: that's going to get extended towards other people's unfortunate Yeah,

2600
02:32:45,480 --> 02:32:47,800
Speaker 1: and and like so even though you know, the nationalism

2601
02:32:47,840 --> 02:32:50,000
Speaker 1: can be a lot more progressive, that's not to say

2602
02:32:50,000 --> 02:32:52,960
Speaker 1: as no nationalism does not come up within these sex

2603
02:32:53,440 --> 02:32:56,120
Speaker 1: um which is going to bring us to uh when

2604
02:32:56,200 --> 02:33:00,119
Speaker 1: when a briefly talk about something from the thirties call

2605
02:33:00,160 --> 02:33:03,480
Speaker 1: the called the National Unity Party of the National Unity

2606
02:33:03,560 --> 02:33:07,560
Speaker 1: Party of Canada. Um, the National Union National Unity Party.

2607
02:33:07,640 --> 02:33:10,520
Speaker 1: That is a weird thing to say. Um was was

2608
02:33:10,560 --> 02:33:15,560
Speaker 1: originally called the Canadian National Socialist Unity Party. Oh wait,

2609
02:33:15,600 --> 02:33:23,080
Speaker 1: now that remindmate national socialism. That seems like a term

2610
02:33:23,080 --> 02:33:26,400
Speaker 1: with a little bit of baggage. Yeah, remember correctly, yep,

2611
02:33:27,120 --> 02:33:29,640
Speaker 1: it sort of does. Um so that this was a

2612
02:33:29,680 --> 02:33:33,920
Speaker 1: party formed in nineteen thirty four by a little Nazi

2613
02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:37,560
Speaker 1: shirt head named Adrian R. Khan. Um. Now that is

2614
02:33:37,560 --> 02:33:39,119
Speaker 1: if you cannot tell that it's me trying to say

2615
02:33:39,120 --> 02:33:41,120
Speaker 1: a French name. So he is from Quebec. This is

2616
02:33:41,160 --> 02:33:45,959
Speaker 1: a lot of Canadian Nazi stuff originates inside Quebec because

2617
02:33:45,959 --> 02:33:50,760
Speaker 1: it already has such nationalist tendencies. Um So. Our cohns

2618
02:33:50,800 --> 02:33:53,800
Speaker 1: introduction into nationalism started around the turn of the century

2619
02:33:54,320 --> 02:33:58,200
Speaker 1: amid fears in Quebec that Chinese immigration would threaten the

2620
02:33:58,280 --> 02:34:01,840
Speaker 1: white French Canadian working class. Um, this is still a

2621
02:34:01,879 --> 02:34:05,880
Speaker 1: big thing in Canada. Uh. Racism and nationalism against the

2622
02:34:05,959 --> 02:34:08,199
Speaker 1: Chinese is still a big thing. We will talk about

2623
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:10,160
Speaker 1: this at the very end of this of this of

2624
02:34:10,160 --> 02:34:12,240
Speaker 1: of these episodes because it's that's still a thing the

2625
02:34:12,280 --> 02:34:16,480
Speaker 1: Conservative Party talks about a lot um. So, yeah, his

2626
02:34:16,600 --> 02:34:19,920
Speaker 1: his internationalism was because of fears of Chinese immigration in

2627
02:34:19,920 --> 02:34:23,920
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds. Um the the anti his so

2628
02:34:24,000 --> 02:34:26,880
Speaker 1: his anti immigrants upbringing, plus the fact that he attended

2629
02:34:26,879 --> 02:34:29,200
Speaker 1: the Catholic school um that there there there was no

2630
02:34:29,280 --> 02:34:31,800
Speaker 1: there was no public schools in Quebec until the nineteen sixties.

2631
02:34:31,959 --> 02:34:35,600
Speaker 1: All of the schools were either Catholic or Protestant. Now,

2632
02:34:35,760 --> 02:34:38,520
Speaker 1: this is also part of the cultural divide inside Canada,

2633
02:34:38,560 --> 02:34:41,320
Speaker 1: where usually the English speakers are Protestant and they're usually

2634
02:34:41,360 --> 02:34:44,800
Speaker 1: further west and the and the Catholics are usually you know,

2635
02:34:44,840 --> 02:34:47,880
Speaker 1: French Canadians. There's a lot of that inside Quebec. Um,

2636
02:34:47,920 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 1: so he went to a Catholic school, uh, which were

2637
02:34:51,320 --> 02:34:54,800
Speaker 1: at the time very anti Jewish because what was happening

2638
02:34:54,840 --> 02:34:56,600
Speaker 1: is the Jewish people in Quebec wanted to make their

2639
02:34:56,640 --> 02:34:59,800
Speaker 1: own Jewish schools and the Catholics, like in charge, didn't

2640
02:34:59,800 --> 02:35:01,959
Speaker 1: want that because then that'd be less people were inside

2641
02:35:01,959 --> 02:35:04,840
Speaker 1: Catholic schools and they weren't you know, learning Catholicism. So

2642
02:35:05,080 --> 02:35:06,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot a lot of stuff going on here

2643
02:35:06,760 --> 02:35:09,920
Speaker 1: that is kind of extreme contributing. So he was you know,

2644
02:35:09,959 --> 02:35:12,040
Speaker 1: already anti immigrant because of the Chinese and then he

2645
02:35:12,080 --> 02:35:15,200
Speaker 1: got got exposed to anti Semitism inside its Catholic schools

2646
02:35:15,280 --> 02:35:17,680
Speaker 1: UM and that you know, pushed him onto this specific path.

2647
02:35:17,840 --> 02:35:20,680
Speaker 1: So in nineteen thirty our Khan made a deal with

2648
02:35:20,720 --> 02:35:23,520
Speaker 1: the head of the Conservative Party R. B. Bennett that

2649
02:35:23,600 --> 02:35:25,879
Speaker 1: in exchange for fifteen thousand dollars, which is like two

2650
02:35:25,959 --> 02:35:28,680
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thou dollars in today's money, our our

2651
02:35:28,760 --> 02:35:32,520
Speaker 1: con would craft a smear campaign UM trying to assist

2652
02:35:32,520 --> 02:35:36,080
Speaker 1: the Conservatives in basically smearing the Liberals to gain more

2653
02:35:36,080 --> 02:35:38,800
Speaker 1: Conservative support inside the province of Quebec, which at the

2654
02:35:38,800 --> 02:35:42,960
Speaker 1: time was majority liberal leaning. So our Kan got to

2655
02:35:42,959 --> 02:35:46,200
Speaker 1: work and started prepping like pseudo fascist propaganda for the

2656
02:35:46,200 --> 02:35:49,400
Speaker 1: Conservatives UM and by the nineteen thirty federal election it

2657
02:35:49,440 --> 02:35:52,879
Speaker 1: absolutely worked UM Bennett and the Conservatives one they gained

2658
02:35:52,920 --> 02:35:56,360
Speaker 1: twenty four parliamentary seats in Quebec, which is a massive success.

2659
02:35:56,400 --> 02:35:59,080
Speaker 1: Like before they did not win any seats in Quebec,

2660
02:35:59,080 --> 02:36:01,560
Speaker 1: So gain twenty four seats in for over the course

2661
02:36:01,560 --> 02:36:05,240
Speaker 1: of just one election, massive win. UM. So after getting

2662
02:36:05,240 --> 02:36:09,039
Speaker 1: the after getting the Conservatives elected, the Conservative Party dropped

2663
02:36:09,040 --> 02:36:12,119
Speaker 1: our Khan because he was you know, a little hashtag problematic.

2664
02:36:12,640 --> 02:36:16,360
Speaker 1: Um uh huh. So after he got dropped by the

2665
02:36:16,360 --> 02:36:19,760
Speaker 1: Conservatives short shortly later, our Khan made contact with the

2666
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:23,600
Speaker 1: growing National Socialist Party in Germany. Um. And over the

2667
02:36:23,640 --> 02:36:25,840
Speaker 1: next few years he just he started to gain more

2668
02:36:25,879 --> 02:36:28,720
Speaker 1: fascist contacts around the world. He would exchange letters people

2669
02:36:28,760 --> 02:36:31,320
Speaker 1: from people like Peteople, people from the German Nazis would

2670
02:36:31,320 --> 02:36:33,520
Speaker 1: come over and meet with what and come over to

2671
02:36:33,520 --> 02:36:35,280
Speaker 1: Canada and see what he was doing. He would travel

2672
02:36:35,320 --> 02:36:38,920
Speaker 1: around meeting other other Nazis around the world. UM. So

2673
02:36:38,959 --> 02:36:40,959
Speaker 1: it's kind of just like just gaining a lot, a

2674
02:36:40,959 --> 02:36:43,800
Speaker 1: lot more contacts. So then in nineteen thirty four he

2675
02:36:43,840 --> 02:36:46,360
Speaker 1: formed his own fascist party, which is the Canadian National

2676
02:36:46,440 --> 02:36:49,800
Speaker 1: Socialist Unity Party. And within that year, so in in

2677
02:36:49,840 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 1: the you know midnighteen thirties, it merged with other Canadian

2678
02:36:52,920 --> 02:36:55,959
Speaker 1: nationalist parties that were more based in the west, so

2679
02:36:56,000 --> 02:36:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, in the prairies like Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC.

2680
02:36:59,720 --> 02:37:02,960
Speaker 1: So emerged a few other kind of nationalist groups and

2681
02:37:03,080 --> 02:37:05,800
Speaker 1: started gaining traction, getting thousands and thousands of members. This

2682
02:37:05,879 --> 02:37:08,080
Speaker 1: actually became an actual thing. You can find footage of

2683
02:37:08,080 --> 02:37:10,440
Speaker 1: of his rallies and they're just terrifying, just like you know,

2684
02:37:10,800 --> 02:37:12,480
Speaker 1: just it's it's the same thing whenever you see like

2685
02:37:12,840 --> 02:37:16,119
Speaker 1: the Nazis, you know, rallying in Britain. You know, it's

2686
02:37:16,400 --> 02:37:18,760
Speaker 1: it feels different than watching a Nazi rally in Germany

2687
02:37:18,760 --> 02:37:20,959
Speaker 1: because you can feel a lot more, you know, if

2688
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:23,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's the same feeling. But but come home

2689
02:37:24,320 --> 02:37:26,959
Speaker 1: your own countrymen kind of do the same thing that

2690
02:37:27,000 --> 02:37:33,199
Speaker 1: you associate with the old footage of dead people is exactly. Yeah.

2691
02:37:33,360 --> 02:37:36,400
Speaker 1: So he was getting thousand numbers across Canada, um you know,

2692
02:37:36,520 --> 02:37:39,800
Speaker 1: mostly in the provinces of of Quebec and Alberta. So

2693
02:37:40,280 --> 02:37:42,760
Speaker 1: the two main provinces we're to talk about are going

2694
02:37:42,800 --> 02:37:44,840
Speaker 1: to be Quebeca and and Alberta because that's where a

2695
02:37:44,879 --> 02:37:47,080
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the far right stuff gets

2696
02:37:47,080 --> 02:37:50,800
Speaker 1: started out. Um So in ninety eight, so that's like

2697
02:37:50,840 --> 02:37:53,720
Speaker 1: four years after he started this, Uh, the Canadian National

2698
02:37:53,760 --> 02:37:57,359
Speaker 1: Socialist Unity Party merged again, this time with various nationalist

2699
02:37:57,360 --> 02:38:02,120
Speaker 1: group groups and so called swastika clubs. Um in there

2700
02:38:02,120 --> 02:38:04,440
Speaker 1: we're already inside like Ontario and Quebec, so on the

2701
02:38:04,440 --> 02:38:07,440
Speaker 1: eastern side of Canada. So now he he united both

2702
02:38:07,440 --> 02:38:10,840
Speaker 1: the Quebec stuff Eastern Canada and Western Canada, and then

2703
02:38:10,879 --> 02:38:13,640
Speaker 1: he called that the National Unity Party um and Our

2704
02:38:13,680 --> 02:38:20,680
Speaker 1: Khan appointed himself the Canadian fural Gosh, yes so, and

2705
02:38:20,800 --> 02:38:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from a time Time magazine piece

2706
02:38:23,520 --> 02:38:29,080
Speaker 1: from July of nineteen. Our con scheduled Canada's first national

2707
02:38:29,120 --> 02:38:32,760
Speaker 1: fascist convention for Kingston, Ontario. The mayor and city council

2708
02:38:32,800 --> 02:38:35,119
Speaker 1: did not want a fascist convention held in their city

2709
02:38:35,280 --> 02:38:38,480
Speaker 1: and called the police to prevent it. Defiantly, Leader Arkhan

2710
02:38:38,640 --> 02:38:41,039
Speaker 1: slipped forty five of his leaders into a room near

2711
02:38:41,080 --> 02:38:45,600
Speaker 1: police headquarters. It's this old tibe language held forth unmolested

2712
02:38:45,720 --> 02:38:49,560
Speaker 1: for five and a half hours. Upon emerging, Leader Arkan

2713
02:38:49,920 --> 02:38:52,760
Speaker 1: wired thanks to the mayor for his courtesy extended and

2714
02:38:52,800 --> 02:38:55,800
Speaker 1: announced the formation of the new National Unity Party. A

2715
02:38:55,879 --> 02:38:59,879
Speaker 1: flaming torch will be the new party's emblem, Canada for Canadians,

2716
02:39:00,000 --> 02:39:03,000
Speaker 1: its slogan, and the upraised arm of its salute for

2717
02:39:03,160 --> 02:39:09,879
Speaker 1: King Country and Christianity. Moving onto Ontario, Leader Arkhan, supported

2718
02:39:09,920 --> 02:39:13,280
Speaker 1: by eighty five of his Blue Shirts uh he claims

2719
02:39:13,280 --> 02:39:15,800
Speaker 1: there were eighty thousand members at the time, held a

2720
02:39:15,840 --> 02:39:18,680
Speaker 1: meeting in Mancy Hall that there was attended by about

2721
02:39:18,760 --> 02:39:23,040
Speaker 1: eight hundred sympathizers. More impressive, however, there were three anti

2722
02:39:23,080 --> 02:39:27,920
Speaker 1: fascist counter demonstrations held simultaneously. Two outdoor anti fascist meetings

2723
02:39:28,120 --> 02:39:31,560
Speaker 1: drew four hundred persons until broken up by police fearing

2724
02:39:31,600 --> 02:39:34,720
Speaker 1: a clash, but at Maple Leaf Gardens the Canadian League

2725
02:39:34,760 --> 02:39:38,480
Speaker 1: of Peace and Democracy attracted ten thousand so as was

2726
02:39:38,520 --> 02:39:41,960
Speaker 1: the first big fascist rally in Canada. There was like,

2727
02:39:42,040 --> 02:39:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, ten thousands of these more liberal people rallying

2728
02:39:44,440 --> 02:39:47,920
Speaker 1: elsewhere and four hundred like anti fascists ready to you know,

2729
02:39:48,120 --> 02:39:51,080
Speaker 1: beat up these Nazis, um, but then the police beat

2730
02:39:51,120 --> 02:39:54,000
Speaker 1: them up. Because history doesn't change. Times of flat circle,

2731
02:39:54,040 --> 02:39:56,120
Speaker 1: we're still doing the same thing. Now. Do you know

2732
02:39:56,200 --> 02:40:00,520
Speaker 1: who won't rally eight hundred Canadian Nazis called the Blue

2733
02:40:00,520 --> 02:40:07,320
Speaker 1: Shirts to sell you products? Tell us promise that yeah,

2734
02:40:07,520 --> 02:40:14,520
Speaker 1: depending depending what Hello Fresh has recently been sending there.

2735
02:40:14,640 --> 02:40:17,560
Speaker 1: Why do you always pick Hello Fresh? There are so

2736
02:40:17,600 --> 02:40:22,920
Speaker 1: many worse brands that we can't ignore the fact that

2737
02:40:22,959 --> 02:40:26,199
Speaker 1: they've been increasingly building their militant capacity for the last

2738
02:40:26,200 --> 02:40:28,680
Speaker 1: seven years. Anyway, here's some ads. You have too much

2739
02:40:28,720 --> 02:40:33,080
Speaker 1: to read, and we are back talking about the Canadian

2740
02:40:33,120 --> 02:40:40,840
Speaker 1: Blue Shirts. Um. The Hello fresh hello shirt. Please continue

2741
02:40:40,879 --> 02:40:47,200
Speaker 1: blue aprons, the blue Aprons. Thanks Chris, Thanks Chris for

2742
02:40:47,280 --> 02:40:50,720
Speaker 1: saving the bit all right, thank you. Um. So next

2743
02:40:50,800 --> 02:40:53,959
Speaker 1: year after his first rally, nine, World War two obviously

2744
02:40:54,040 --> 02:40:56,520
Speaker 1: started to ramp up and the Canadian government arrested our

2745
02:40:56,600 --> 02:40:59,520
Speaker 1: Cohn for plotting to overthrow the state UM and his

2746
02:40:59,600 --> 02:41:02,600
Speaker 1: national In the party was banned from federal elections. Arkhan

2747
02:41:02,720 --> 02:41:05,480
Speaker 1: was released from prison after the war, but he continued

2748
02:41:05,520 --> 02:41:08,280
Speaker 1: his political aspirations. UM. He ran for federal election twice

2749
02:41:08,320 --> 02:41:10,800
Speaker 1: in Quebec, once in nineteen forty nine and once in

2750
02:41:10,879 --> 02:41:14,199
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three. Both times he uh, he ran under

2751
02:41:14,280 --> 02:41:17,200
Speaker 1: his National Unity Party banner, despite it being banned from elections.

2752
02:41:17,200 --> 02:41:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how he did that, um, both times.

2753
02:41:20,600 --> 02:41:24,200
Speaker 1: Laws are fake. Yeah, both times he placed second with

2754
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:27,240
Speaker 1: over five and a half five and a half thousand votes,

2755
02:41:27,520 --> 02:41:30,640
Speaker 1: just about like thirty percent of of of the vote. Um. Actually,

2756
02:41:30,640 --> 02:41:33,200
Speaker 1: but the second time he ran as he ran just

2757
02:41:33,320 --> 02:41:36,199
Speaker 1: under a nationalist banner UM, and he got second as well.

2758
02:41:36,440 --> 02:41:38,680
Speaker 1: But he got like the vote, so he did a

2759
02:41:38,720 --> 02:41:41,400
Speaker 1: slight slightly better just running as a nationalist in Quebec,

2760
02:41:41,560 --> 02:41:43,480
Speaker 1: not like the National Unity thing, because that was you

2761
02:41:43,520 --> 02:41:47,000
Speaker 1: know more overtly Nazi, but he kept holding National Unity

2762
02:41:47,000 --> 02:41:50,920
Speaker 1: Party public rallies until the mid sixties. His last rally

2763
02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:55,200
Speaker 1: I think attracted like one thousand supporters, too many. I

2764
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:57,039
Speaker 1: was hoping you were going to say like three and

2765
02:41:57,040 --> 02:42:00,080
Speaker 1: there was probably sad footage, but that's sad in a

2766
02:42:00,120 --> 02:42:05,400
Speaker 1: different way. Yeah. So he finally died in nineteen sixty seven,

2767
02:42:06,400 --> 02:42:10,720
Speaker 1: and with him also died the National Unity Party. I

2768
02:42:10,840 --> 02:42:13,520
Speaker 1: So I bring this one up because it's one fund

2769
02:42:13,560 --> 02:42:17,039
Speaker 1: up and interesting, um and too. It's like it's indicative

2770
02:42:17,120 --> 02:42:20,440
Speaker 1: of the weirdness that can come out of Quebec's nationalist

2771
02:42:20,480 --> 02:42:23,840
Speaker 1: political bent. Uh. We can see that now with a

2772
02:42:23,879 --> 02:42:27,320
Speaker 1: modern fact, you know, neo fascist Canadian political party that's

2773
02:42:27,320 --> 02:42:30,640
Speaker 1: based out of Quebec, which we will talk about shortly, um.

2774
02:42:30,680 --> 02:42:33,720
Speaker 1: But even like the nationalist tendencies within Quebec's more mainstream

2775
02:42:33,760 --> 02:42:36,720
Speaker 1: progressive population, Like I'm going to read some of the

2776
02:42:36,760 --> 02:42:40,080
Speaker 1: policy positions of the block keebu Qua party. That's that's

2777
02:42:40,080 --> 02:42:44,000
Speaker 1: that that's that's like the Quebec Sovereignty you know, party

2778
02:42:44,080 --> 02:42:48,200
Speaker 1: that is still actually very very popular in elections specifically

2779
02:42:48,200 --> 02:42:50,480
Speaker 1: in Quebec, and just ahead of this, if you're a

2780
02:42:50,520 --> 02:42:54,200
Speaker 1: French speaker, and you're frustrated by Garrison's pronunciations or my

2781
02:42:54,280 --> 02:42:59,760
Speaker 1: pronunciations of Quebecqua that your language isn't real and it's

2782
02:43:01,000 --> 02:43:04,680
Speaker 1: and you're deed from the French. Yeah, and you're responsible

2783
02:43:04,720 --> 02:43:09,039
Speaker 1: for this Nazi so unlike unlike English speakers who have

2784
02:43:09,040 --> 02:43:15,160
Speaker 1: been responsible for Spanish. That's my take, okay, anyway, saying

2785
02:43:15,200 --> 02:43:19,240
Speaker 1: Spanish here here, here is the progressive liberal block Kibuqua

2786
02:43:20,120 --> 02:43:23,960
Speaker 1: policy positions UM Quebec sovereignty you know, up into independence.

2787
02:43:23,959 --> 02:43:26,000
Speaker 1: But usually it's just you know them pushing the interests

2788
02:43:26,000 --> 02:43:30,440
Speaker 1: of Quebec. UM environmentalism, abortion rights, you know, pro abortion

2789
02:43:30,560 --> 02:43:33,800
Speaker 1: rights UM, l g l g lgbt Q rights, UM,

2790
02:43:34,360 --> 02:43:39,080
Speaker 1: legalization of assisted suicide, UM, opposition to Canadian participation in

2791
02:43:39,200 --> 02:43:44,880
Speaker 1: the Iraq war, UM abolition, abolition of the abolition of

2792
02:43:44,920 --> 02:43:50,440
Speaker 1: the monarchy right UH forcing forcing immigrants to speak French

2793
02:43:50,520 --> 02:43:56,720
Speaker 1: in Quebec. Lost lost blocking immigration to Quebec. You've also

2794
02:43:56,840 --> 02:44:00,640
Speaker 1: lost me The Quebec Secularism law, which banned public workers

2795
02:44:00,680 --> 02:44:03,680
Speaker 1: in positions of authority from wearing religious symbols primarily targeted

2796
02:44:03,720 --> 02:44:10,960
Speaker 1: at Muslims, and seeks exemption Quebec's exemption from the requirements

2797
02:44:11,000 --> 02:44:14,320
Speaker 1: of the Multiculturalism Act. Yeah, I mean, I don't know

2798
02:44:14,360 --> 02:44:17,160
Speaker 1: the Multicultural Act, but I'm it's great. It's it's it's good.

2799
02:44:17,480 --> 02:44:19,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you can kind of see how like

2800
02:44:19,520 --> 02:44:22,880
Speaker 1: they have you know, all these like you know, pretty good,

2801
02:44:23,240 --> 02:44:27,080
Speaker 1: pretty good progressive SIGs and then and then they get

2802
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:30,200
Speaker 1: really anti immigrant, right, so this is like, this is

2803
02:44:30,280 --> 02:44:32,360
Speaker 1: kind of hard to explain to Americans, how like you

2804
02:44:32,400 --> 02:44:35,199
Speaker 1: can be very like pro gay, pro you know, abolition

2805
02:44:35,240 --> 02:44:37,040
Speaker 1: of the monarchy, but then also be like, no, but

2806
02:44:37,160 --> 02:44:43,400
Speaker 1: we don't want those brown people in Quebec. Yeah. So yeah, anyway,

2807
02:44:43,920 --> 02:44:46,120
Speaker 1: we're gon we're gonna move on from Quebec specifically, but

2808
02:44:46,200 --> 02:44:49,280
Speaker 1: don't worry, we will be back because you're still a problem.

2809
02:44:49,760 --> 02:44:51,760
Speaker 1: But there there are there are other things too, are

2810
02:44:51,840 --> 02:44:55,680
Speaker 1: other things to discuss. So after our cons fascist Canadian movement,

2811
02:44:55,879 --> 02:44:58,920
Speaker 1: there was a stint of like Canadian skinheads in the seventies,

2812
02:44:59,000 --> 02:45:00,920
Speaker 1: you know, a on the same time as the UK

2813
02:45:01,040 --> 02:45:03,640
Speaker 1: and the US UM in the seventies, there was an

2814
02:45:03,720 --> 02:45:07,000
Speaker 1: unsuccessful Nazi party called the Nationalist Party of Canada that

2815
02:45:07,160 --> 02:45:11,000
Speaker 1: spawned a skinhead gang called Heritage Front. Um. Heritage Front

2816
02:45:11,000 --> 02:45:14,040
Speaker 1: disbanded around the mid two thousands because the Canadian FEDS

2817
02:45:14,080 --> 02:45:16,560
Speaker 1: infiltrated it and kind of you know, cut that down.

2818
02:45:16,680 --> 02:45:19,840
Speaker 1: So critical support to the Canadian Feds. But now we're

2819
02:45:19,879 --> 02:45:22,840
Speaker 1: gonna move on to unite the right, not not not

2820
02:45:23,040 --> 02:45:25,640
Speaker 1: the United Right that you're thinking of, the Canadian Unite

2821
02:45:25,680 --> 02:45:28,800
Speaker 1: the Right movement from the ninety nineties and early two thousands.

2822
02:45:29,320 --> 02:45:33,040
Speaker 1: That one probably wasn't problematic right there. It has no

2823
02:45:33,240 --> 02:45:38,600
Speaker 1: lasting problems. So because of Canada, because of Canada's multi

2824
02:45:38,640 --> 02:45:42,360
Speaker 1: multiparty system, there's more opportunity for ideologically similar parties to

2825
02:45:42,480 --> 02:45:44,880
Speaker 1: split the vote, you know, of people leaning in a

2826
02:45:44,959 --> 02:45:48,160
Speaker 1: certain direction. Um. Throughout most of the later half of

2827
02:45:48,200 --> 02:45:51,400
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, they were multiple conservative right wing parties

2828
02:45:52,000 --> 02:45:54,160
Speaker 1: that were operating at the same time, which did split

2829
02:45:54,200 --> 02:45:56,200
Speaker 1: the right of center vote. This is in part what

2830
02:45:56,280 --> 02:45:58,800
Speaker 1: allowed Canada to rise as like a liberal haven, because

2831
02:45:58,840 --> 02:46:01,680
Speaker 1: for a while the Conservatives just couldn't get elected because

2832
02:46:01,680 --> 02:46:03,560
Speaker 1: they were splitting the vote too many ways, leaving the

2833
02:46:03,640 --> 02:46:06,880
Speaker 1: main liberal party to win the vast majority of elections. UM.

2834
02:46:07,160 --> 02:46:10,440
Speaker 1: Obviously this frustrated right wing politicians and vote and voters

2835
02:46:11,040 --> 02:46:13,080
Speaker 1: than in the ninety nineties there were there were there

2836
02:46:13,080 --> 02:46:15,240
Speaker 1: were two main right wing parties, there was the older

2837
02:46:15,560 --> 02:46:19,720
Speaker 1: Progressive Conservative Party. They're like a classically fiscal conservative party

2838
02:46:20,000 --> 02:46:23,960
Speaker 1: with slightly less socially conservative beliefs, So you know, I

2839
02:46:24,200 --> 02:46:27,119
Speaker 1: would rather take them compared to the alternatives here. Um.

2840
02:46:27,520 --> 02:46:30,080
Speaker 1: The other major party was a right of center party

2841
02:46:30,160 --> 02:46:32,320
Speaker 1: called the Reform Party, which was much more of like

2842
02:46:32,400 --> 02:46:36,280
Speaker 1: a right wing populist and extremely socially conservative party, more

2843
02:46:36,400 --> 02:46:39,400
Speaker 1: similar to like the Trump era Republican Party. You know,

2844
02:46:39,440 --> 02:46:41,800
Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're much they're much more right wing populist,

2845
02:46:42,200 --> 02:46:44,840
Speaker 1: they're way more socially conservative, kind of what we traditionally

2846
02:46:44,920 --> 02:46:47,280
Speaker 1: think of as like, you know, like a racist Republican

2847
02:46:47,360 --> 02:46:49,400
Speaker 1: that this this this is their party called called the

2848
02:46:49,440 --> 02:46:53,440
Speaker 1: Reform Party. So after after loss after loss throughout the

2849
02:46:53,520 --> 02:46:56,520
Speaker 1: nineties and during the turn of the century, conservative efforts

2850
02:46:56,520 --> 02:46:59,520
Speaker 1: were being made between these two parties to unite into one.

2851
02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:02,880
Speaker 1: In nineteen there was a Unite the Right conference held

2852
02:47:02,920 --> 02:47:06,440
Speaker 1: in Toronto, Ontario, trying to bring together politicians and delegates

2853
02:47:06,480 --> 02:47:09,320
Speaker 1: from these two main conservative parties. But they also brought

2854
02:47:09,400 --> 02:47:13,080
Speaker 1: in some much more extreme Christian fascist parties, which there

2855
02:47:13,160 --> 02:47:14,360
Speaker 1: was like four of at the time. There was a

2856
02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:17,600
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of Christian fascist parties around this time.

2857
02:47:18,040 --> 02:47:21,880
Speaker 1: Um So, the conference garnered a negative news coverage in

2858
02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:24,039
Speaker 1: part to due to the inclusion of these far right

2859
02:47:24,120 --> 02:47:27,440
Speaker 1: Christian extremist parties. And then after the conference, polls were

2860
02:47:27,480 --> 02:47:31,000
Speaker 1: conducted that suggested that many of the Progressive Conservative supporters

2861
02:47:31,120 --> 02:47:33,600
Speaker 1: would rather vote liberal than vote for the new kind

2862
02:47:33,640 --> 02:47:37,160
Speaker 1: of merged more extreme right wing parties. So like a

2863
02:47:37,240 --> 02:47:39,720
Speaker 1: lot of these a lot of these fiscal conservatives are like, no,

2864
02:47:39,959 --> 02:47:42,359
Speaker 1: I'm not going to vote for all of this weird racism.

2865
02:47:42,680 --> 02:47:44,560
Speaker 1: I just don't want there to be higher taxes. So

2866
02:47:44,680 --> 02:47:46,879
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna rather vote for the liberals

2867
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:49,440
Speaker 1: than vote for these fucking weirdos, which I mean, yeah,

2868
02:47:49,480 --> 02:47:52,280
Speaker 1: Like that's that. That's the conservative I would rather have.

2869
02:47:53,720 --> 02:47:57,600
Speaker 1: Um So, the conference didn't sit well with the with

2870
02:47:57,680 --> 02:48:01,000
Speaker 1: the Progressive Conservative Party. Um it's a politicians or or

2871
02:48:01,160 --> 02:48:04,680
Speaker 1: the political leaders. So the merger plans were cut off.

2872
02:48:04,720 --> 02:48:06,320
Speaker 1: They're like, no, we're not gonna do this. You guys

2873
02:48:06,360 --> 02:48:09,360
Speaker 1: are too weird and racist. We're not doing this. Um

2874
02:48:09,800 --> 02:48:12,320
Speaker 1: Then in two thousand to No, I think it's important

2875
02:48:12,360 --> 02:48:14,920
Speaker 1: that this was after nine eleven. I think this is

2876
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:17,840
Speaker 1: really the reason why this happened. Um. One of the

2877
02:48:17,920 --> 02:48:20,760
Speaker 1: original Reform Party founders that the Reform Party is the

2878
02:48:20,840 --> 02:48:23,680
Speaker 1: more populist one. So one of the original founders named

2879
02:48:23,720 --> 02:48:27,800
Speaker 1: Stephen Harper, took control of the populist Conservative Party and

2880
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:30,640
Speaker 1: worked to improve the optics of the more extreme sides

2881
02:48:30,680 --> 02:48:33,080
Speaker 1: of his party. I think it's very important this. This

2882
02:48:33,200 --> 02:48:35,160
Speaker 1: happened after nine eleven, and this is how the merger

2883
02:48:35,200 --> 02:48:38,119
Speaker 1: actually worked. So in two thousand three, merger talks sort

2884
02:48:38,160 --> 02:48:40,280
Speaker 1: of up again, and in August of that year the

2885
02:48:40,320 --> 02:48:42,920
Speaker 1: two parties announced the merger had been completed. There was

2886
02:48:42,959 --> 02:48:46,480
Speaker 1: a new United Conservative Party. Um. In the announcement, Harper

2887
02:48:46,600 --> 02:48:49,800
Speaker 1: is quoted as saying, our swords will henceforth be pointed

2888
02:48:49,879 --> 02:48:52,920
Speaker 1: at the Liberals, not to each other, and in December

2889
02:48:53,000 --> 02:48:56,080
Speaker 1: Harper was voted in as the new party leader. The

2890
02:48:56,280 --> 02:48:58,480
Speaker 1: work did pay off in the two US and six

2891
02:48:58,560 --> 02:49:02,400
Speaker 1: Canadian federal election. The Conservatives gained a controlling minority government

2892
02:49:02,440 --> 02:49:05,920
Speaker 1: among the electorate, with the former co founder of the extremist,

2893
02:49:06,480 --> 02:49:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, populist Reform Party, Stephen Harper, becoming the new

2894
02:49:09,879 --> 02:49:12,840
Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Canada. So this is how he got

2895
02:49:12,920 --> 02:49:14,920
Speaker 1: from Reform Party to being the you know, the prime

2896
02:49:14,920 --> 02:49:17,800
Speaker 1: Minister in through through the two thousand's um he was

2897
02:49:17,879 --> 02:49:19,400
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister of Canada for most of the time

2898
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:21,040
Speaker 1: I lived there. That that that's who I think of

2899
02:49:21,080 --> 02:49:22,680
Speaker 1: when I think of the Prime Minister of Canada's I

2900
02:49:22,760 --> 02:49:26,840
Speaker 1: think of Stephen Harper. So Harper remained as Prime minister

2901
02:49:27,040 --> 02:49:29,879
Speaker 1: until the two thousand and fifteen election that saw noted

2902
02:49:29,920 --> 02:49:33,920
Speaker 1: black face appreciator Justin Trudeau elected under the Liberal Party.

2903
02:49:34,560 --> 02:49:38,920
Speaker 1: So that's good. What a good system we have that

2904
02:49:39,240 --> 02:49:46,360
Speaker 1: that that man like just your range of his black look.

2905
02:49:46,520 --> 02:49:50,800
Speaker 1: Say what you will about the man, very careful. You

2906
02:49:50,920 --> 02:49:53,840
Speaker 1: know you under no circumstances got to hand it to him.

2907
02:49:55,560 --> 02:49:57,960
Speaker 1: You do not, in fact, have to hand it to him.

2908
02:49:58,680 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 1: Well you have to hand him, uh the little the

2909
02:50:02,200 --> 02:50:04,080
Speaker 1: towel that he uses to get the black face off

2910
02:50:04,120 --> 02:50:07,840
Speaker 1: of his face. He can go into his work running Canada.

2911
02:50:08,200 --> 02:50:13,840
Speaker 1: Uh huh, yep, cool country. So didn't find out that

2912
02:50:13,959 --> 02:50:16,400
Speaker 1: like five of our governors all had black face photos.

2913
02:50:18,120 --> 02:50:20,840
Speaker 1: It was it was. It was a big year for

2914
02:50:20,959 --> 02:50:24,760
Speaker 1: black face. It really it's incredible because I can't picture

2915
02:50:25,120 --> 02:50:28,200
Speaker 1: Like again, I grew up very right wing and definitely

2916
02:50:28,959 --> 02:50:31,600
Speaker 1: had some said some uncomfortable things in my time. I

2917
02:50:31,640 --> 02:50:33,120
Speaker 1: don't think there was ever a point at which I

2918
02:50:33,120 --> 02:50:35,240
Speaker 1: would have been like, yeah, this seems like a good idea.

2919
02:50:36,959 --> 02:50:43,840
Speaker 1: It's what the fuck? Like, Yeah, what is the joke there?

2920
02:50:43,959 --> 02:50:53,800
Speaker 1: It's pretty it's pretty bad. Justin Trudeau liberal. Yeah, he

2921
02:50:54,000 --> 02:50:58,039
Speaker 1: is incredible. He is the one all of the wind

2922
02:50:58,120 --> 02:51:06,920
Speaker 1: Mom's thirst over. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Um, Beyond making it

2923
02:51:07,000 --> 02:51:09,680
Speaker 1: easier to vote in right of center candidates, what what

2924
02:51:09,840 --> 02:51:12,760
Speaker 1: the Canadian unit the right accomplished was pushing the conservative

2925
02:51:12,800 --> 02:51:15,560
Speaker 1: establishment much further to the right than what the previously

2926
02:51:15,640 --> 02:51:19,800
Speaker 1: popular Progressive Conservatives had established, while maintaining the respectability and

2927
02:51:19,920 --> 02:51:24,080
Speaker 1: civility the progressive Conservatives had cultivated. We are now going

2928
02:51:24,120 --> 02:51:28,600
Speaker 1: to skip ahead to two thousand seventeen. UM. In January seventeen,

2929
02:51:29,000 --> 02:51:31,959
Speaker 1: soon after the US President Donald Trump put into place

2930
02:51:32,040 --> 02:51:35,680
Speaker 1: the travel band from from you know, seven Muslim majority countries,

2931
02:51:35,920 --> 02:51:39,080
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau delivered a message via Twitter to

2932
02:51:39,200 --> 02:51:42,640
Speaker 1: those fleeing persecution, terror, and war, Canadians will welcome you,

2933
02:51:42,720 --> 02:51:46,360
Speaker 1: regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength hashtag welcome

2934
02:51:46,440 --> 02:51:50,640
Speaker 1: to Canada. So Trudeau is like, if the US is

2935
02:51:50,640 --> 02:51:53,920
Speaker 1: gonna be racist, we're gonna we're gonna let them in.

2936
02:51:54,360 --> 02:51:56,960
Speaker 1: Um for this, uh, for this next part I'm going

2937
02:51:57,000 --> 02:52:00,280
Speaker 1: to quote from the New York Times. Um Just hours

2938
02:52:00,320 --> 02:52:03,760
Speaker 1: after watching the television reports suggesting Canada would accept immigrants

2939
02:52:04,480 --> 02:52:07,080
Speaker 1: that were shunned by Trump, the twenty eight year old

2940
02:52:07,200 --> 02:52:10,560
Speaker 1: political science student packed his glock, handgun and rifle and

2941
02:52:10,680 --> 02:52:13,000
Speaker 1: trudged through the snow covered streets of Quebec to a

2942
02:52:13,120 --> 02:52:17,359
Speaker 1: nearby Islamic cultural center. As fifty three men were finishing

2943
02:52:17,440 --> 02:52:20,880
Speaker 1: evening prayers, he unloaded forty eight rounds. Six people were killed,

2944
02:52:21,160 --> 02:52:23,760
Speaker 1: several of them with shots to the head, and nineteen

2945
02:52:23,800 --> 02:52:27,000
Speaker 1: others were injured. One was paralyzed for life. In the

2946
02:52:27,080 --> 02:52:30,560
Speaker 1: month before his rampage, the shooter tralled the Internet eight

2947
02:52:30,680 --> 02:52:34,039
Speaker 1: hundred and nineteen times for posts related to Mr Trump,

2948
02:52:34,320 --> 02:52:36,880
Speaker 1: reading his Twitter feed daily, and homing in on the

2949
02:52:36,959 --> 02:52:40,800
Speaker 1: American president's travel ban on several Muslim majority countries. He

2950
02:52:40,920 --> 02:52:42,800
Speaker 1: kept a cash of guns underneath his bed at his

2951
02:52:42,920 --> 02:52:45,760
Speaker 1: parents house, and among his friends was just his twin brother.

2952
02:52:46,200 --> 02:52:48,320
Speaker 1: The shooter told investigators that he wished he had killed

2953
02:52:48,400 --> 02:52:50,480
Speaker 1: more people and he wanted to protect his family from

2954
02:52:50,520 --> 02:52:54,360
Speaker 1: Islamic terrorists. Experts on radicalization say that in Quebec, the

2955
02:52:54,400 --> 02:52:57,120
Speaker 1: French speaking province surrounded by an English speaking majority, The

2956
02:52:57,160 --> 02:53:01,600
Speaker 1: anti immigrant far right offers fertile for fertile, imperious ground

2957
02:53:01,800 --> 02:53:05,000
Speaker 1: for psychologically unstable youths seeking a sense of identity and

2958
02:53:05,120 --> 02:53:08,600
Speaker 1: a scapegoat the head of the Canadian based Center of

2959
02:53:08,680 --> 02:53:12,000
Speaker 1: Prevention of Radicalization leading to Violence that they said that

2960
02:53:12,000 --> 02:53:13,920
Speaker 1: the Quebec mosque shooter was in part of it was

2961
02:53:14,000 --> 02:53:16,600
Speaker 1: part of a growing number of educated, middle class white

2962
02:53:16,640 --> 02:53:19,560
Speaker 1: youths in Quebec drawn to far right ideas, fueled by

2963
02:53:19,600 --> 02:53:21,800
Speaker 1: the election of Mr Trump and fanned by fears of

2964
02:53:21,840 --> 02:53:25,760
Speaker 1: immigration that threatens Quebec's identity. When the Anti Radicalization Center

2965
02:53:25,840 --> 02:53:27,960
Speaker 1: was started in two thousand and fifteen, they dealt with

2966
02:53:28,040 --> 02:53:30,720
Speaker 1: sixteen cases of youths in the province that we're getting

2967
02:53:30,760 --> 02:53:34,440
Speaker 1: radicalized by the far right last year, which was like sixteen, uh,

2968
02:53:34,600 --> 02:53:37,960
Speaker 1: this center had one d and fifty four such cases.

2969
02:53:39,640 --> 02:53:43,200
Speaker 1: So this is this is kind of the the arc

2970
02:53:43,320 --> 02:53:46,640
Speaker 1: of things. Really, Trump's Trump's election did spire did did

2971
02:53:46,720 --> 02:53:50,840
Speaker 1: spur a lot of this growing like oh, these political

2972
02:53:50,920 --> 02:53:53,880
Speaker 1: beliefs are acceptable now, right, Like this is something that

2973
02:53:54,040 --> 02:53:56,240
Speaker 1: is like we are we are we are allowed to

2974
02:53:56,360 --> 02:53:59,240
Speaker 1: do this, and that that did echo in Canada and

2975
02:53:59,240 --> 02:54:00,920
Speaker 1: across a lot of the a lot of a lot

2976
02:54:01,000 --> 02:54:03,200
Speaker 1: of other countries. Um. What what one of one of

2977
02:54:03,240 --> 02:54:06,720
Speaker 1: the victims of the of the Quebec uh massacre his

2978
02:54:07,080 --> 02:54:10,120
Speaker 1: his father said that he come to Canada from Algeria

2979
02:54:10,360 --> 02:54:14,560
Speaker 1: in the to escape terrorism. Um. And he said that

2980
02:54:14,720 --> 02:54:17,400
Speaker 1: like Quebec did not create the monster the shooter, but

2981
02:54:17,520 --> 02:54:21,840
Speaker 1: the Islamophobia that is inherent inside Quebec gave him like

2982
02:54:22,200 --> 02:54:25,600
Speaker 1: the motive. So this is really does relate to connate

2983
02:54:25,760 --> 02:54:28,360
Speaker 1: to like the political situation of Canada. And it's very

2984
02:54:28,879 --> 02:54:31,000
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not a coincidence that the majority of

2985
02:54:31,040 --> 02:54:35,039
Speaker 1: these types of attacks are inside either Quebec, Toronto or um.

2986
02:54:35,120 --> 02:54:37,000
Speaker 1: You know, if you're if you're a white, if you're

2987
02:54:37,520 --> 02:54:39,720
Speaker 1: if you're in Alberta. It's said it's more tied to

2988
02:54:39,760 --> 02:54:42,600
Speaker 1: like other other like conservative values, but like a lot

2989
02:54:42,680 --> 02:54:44,800
Speaker 1: of it is around Quebec for a lot of these

2990
02:54:44,879 --> 02:54:48,320
Speaker 1: like shootings and always acts of terrorism. Um. There was

2991
02:54:48,400 --> 02:54:51,600
Speaker 1: like the there was the in cell guy who ran

2992
02:54:51,640 --> 02:54:54,680
Speaker 1: over tons of people in Toronto with his car. Um.

2993
02:54:55,000 --> 02:54:56,880
Speaker 1: Same same kind of thing of like of getting more

2994
02:54:57,000 --> 02:54:59,080
Speaker 1: more used to these kind of having these far right

2995
02:54:59,120 --> 02:55:02,400
Speaker 1: ideas be more loud um and then thinking them as

2996
02:55:02,440 --> 02:55:06,560
Speaker 1: more of like a normalized thing. So that so the

2997
02:55:07,360 --> 02:55:11,920
Speaker 1: Quebec mosque shooting, uh kind of well, couple a lot

2998
02:55:11,959 --> 02:55:14,320
Speaker 1: of people in Canada's being like, oh, we're not immune

2999
02:55:14,360 --> 02:55:16,640
Speaker 1: to this. This is like an actual thing that we

3000
02:55:17,000 --> 02:55:20,760
Speaker 1: have to deal with. Two. Um. And the next few

3001
02:55:20,800 --> 02:55:25,240
Speaker 1: months after Trade's January announcement, border crossings did see an

3002
02:55:25,280 --> 02:55:29,440
Speaker 1: increase in Canada formally accepted more immigrants and refugees and

3003
02:55:29,640 --> 02:55:33,039
Speaker 1: and not. And there was like the term in Canada

3004
02:55:33,160 --> 02:55:36,600
Speaker 1: is like an irregular spike of border crossings. Um. The

3005
02:55:36,720 --> 02:55:39,960
Speaker 1: fact the way Canadian media reported this, I think it's

3006
02:55:40,040 --> 02:55:42,600
Speaker 1: very irresponsible, the way they tried to like frame this

3007
02:55:42,720 --> 02:55:45,439
Speaker 1: as like after this announcement, We're getting so many irregular

3008
02:55:45,480 --> 02:55:49,199
Speaker 1: crossings that only fueled this type of like this type

3009
02:55:49,200 --> 02:55:51,920
Speaker 1: of anti immigrant sentiment. Um. It was. It was not

3010
02:55:52,080 --> 02:55:54,040
Speaker 1: really great. A lot of the old articles I pulled

3011
02:55:54,080 --> 02:55:57,000
Speaker 1: up for this for like, had really had really disgusting framing,

3012
02:55:57,640 --> 02:56:02,080
Speaker 1: especially you know, viewing it now. So in March, the

3013
02:56:02,120 --> 02:56:06,240
Speaker 1: Canadian Parliament passed a motion that condemns Islamophobia and request

3014
02:56:06,280 --> 02:56:09,000
Speaker 1: that the government recognized the need to quell the public

3015
02:56:09,240 --> 02:56:13,400
Speaker 1: of a climate of fear and hate, specifically around Muslims.

3016
02:56:13,560 --> 02:56:17,040
Speaker 1: And immigrants. Um. The motion was non binding, so it

3017
02:56:17,080 --> 02:56:19,480
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't mean anything. It's just the government saying

3018
02:56:19,600 --> 02:56:23,560
Speaker 1: something nice. Um. But it's still it's it's still sparked

3019
02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:26,800
Speaker 1: tons of outrage. Um. You know. It called on the

3020
02:56:26,840 --> 02:56:30,320
Speaker 1: government to condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism

3021
02:56:30,400 --> 02:56:34,400
Speaker 1: and discrimination. Uh. The the margin was passed by like

3022
02:56:35,400 --> 02:56:37,360
Speaker 1: it was passed by a margin of like two hundred

3023
02:56:37,840 --> 02:56:42,200
Speaker 1: two h two over ninety so people a lot of

3024
02:56:42,280 --> 02:56:44,440
Speaker 1: a lot of the Conservatives in Parliament didn't didn't like this,

3025
02:56:44,840 --> 02:56:48,560
Speaker 1: but it it's it's it garnered so much online backlash.

3026
02:56:48,640 --> 02:56:51,440
Speaker 1: There were there were petitions and nationwide protests condemning this

3027
02:56:51,560 --> 02:56:55,240
Speaker 1: bill as an attack on free speech. Um and Uh.

3028
02:56:55,360 --> 02:56:58,920
Speaker 1: The person who introduced the bill um uh in an

3029
02:56:59,040 --> 02:57:04,840
Speaker 1: MP named um Ikracalid, received death threats um on through

3030
02:57:04,920 --> 02:57:06,959
Speaker 1: like their email and like they had like their private

3031
02:57:07,000 --> 02:57:10,879
Speaker 1: private information leaked. And it turned in this very very

3032
02:57:10,920 --> 02:57:13,280
Speaker 1: big kind of one of the first things where it

3033
02:57:13,320 --> 02:57:15,800
Speaker 1: had like these like national protests in Canada that you know,

3034
02:57:15,920 --> 02:57:17,480
Speaker 1: similar to how we had like the free speech thing

3035
02:57:17,480 --> 02:57:19,640
Speaker 1: around to two and seventeen. This was like the Canadian

3036
02:57:19,720 --> 02:57:21,920
Speaker 1: version of that and how this kind of started Um.

3037
02:57:22,640 --> 02:57:25,480
Speaker 1: Then in December, Urdeau signed into the United Nations Global

3038
02:57:26,040 --> 02:57:29,360
Speaker 1: Migration Pact. There's another non binding incentive designed to provide

3039
02:57:29,440 --> 02:57:32,480
Speaker 1: understanding among nations, but how to deal with the global

3040
02:57:32,480 --> 02:57:35,760
Speaker 1: immigration crisis. Again, all these things are just people talking. Um.

3041
02:57:35,920 --> 02:57:39,800
Speaker 1: But it made people very, very mad, because if you're

3042
02:57:39,800 --> 02:57:41,440
Speaker 1: talking about it, that means it actually is real and

3043
02:57:41,480 --> 02:57:43,680
Speaker 1: it's actually gonna affect you, or it's just ignoring that

3044
02:57:43,720 --> 02:57:48,520
Speaker 1: these problems exist. So really, after Trump's election, after the Quebec,

3045
02:57:48,600 --> 02:57:51,120
Speaker 1: after after the Quebec Mosque shooting, then we have all

3046
02:57:51,120 --> 02:57:55,400
Speaker 1: these bills. This kind of ignited a in person rallying

3047
02:57:55,640 --> 02:57:58,440
Speaker 1: possibility and in person protests that Canada hadn't really seen

3048
02:57:58,520 --> 02:58:03,480
Speaker 1: before for this type of like anti immigration sentiments. Um.

3049
02:58:04,000 --> 02:58:06,880
Speaker 1: And we'll we'll talk more about these protests after after

3050
02:58:07,040 --> 02:58:08,959
Speaker 1: we have a little little bit of an ad break.

3051
02:58:09,560 --> 02:58:13,480
Speaker 1: You know, who doesn't get protested except for that one

3052
02:58:13,560 --> 02:58:18,320
Speaker 1: time when they illegally overthrew the government of Ecuador. Uh

3053
02:58:18,680 --> 02:58:21,560
Speaker 1: have to be more the the That's right, Garrison, our

3054
02:58:21,600 --> 02:58:29,680
Speaker 1: sponsors only one time did they inside cause mass protests

3055
02:58:29,840 --> 02:58:35,080
Speaker 1: as a result of overthrowing a sovereign government. That's pretty good,

3056
02:58:36,920 --> 02:58:38,480
Speaker 1: Pretty good, are you? Trying to do like a Banana

3057
02:58:38,520 --> 02:58:40,520
Speaker 1: Republic thing. What are you? What are you doing? I'm

3058
02:58:40,600 --> 02:58:45,000
Speaker 1: just saying most podcasts three to four governments overthrown by

3059
02:58:45,040 --> 02:58:48,000
Speaker 1: their sponsors. All Right, it could happen here, just the

3060
02:58:48,040 --> 02:58:52,640
Speaker 1: one baby, Hello, welcome to Why Canada isn't a liberal

3061
02:58:52,720 --> 02:58:54,959
Speaker 1: utopia and actually has a lot of the same systemic

3062
02:58:55,040 --> 02:58:57,800
Speaker 1: problems that every other Western country does and it's not

3063
02:58:57,920 --> 02:59:05,760
Speaker 1: immune to fascist infiltration and fact co option. So as so,

3064
02:59:06,000 --> 02:59:07,440
Speaker 1: I know, we we've we've talked a lot about Quebec

3065
02:59:07,480 --> 02:59:11,120
Speaker 1: and stuff, which is uh great because yeah, it is

3066
02:59:11,160 --> 02:59:14,680
Speaker 1: a problem. But this exists in the western provinces as well. Saskatchewan, Alberta,

3067
02:59:14,720 --> 02:59:16,920
Speaker 1: BC have a lot of these growing kind of things.

3068
02:59:17,240 --> 02:59:19,160
Speaker 1: But they're not French Canadians doing this. They're more like

3069
02:59:19,280 --> 02:59:22,199
Speaker 1: you know what we in America would you know recognize

3070
02:59:22,200 --> 02:59:26,440
Speaker 1: as like rural conservatives. Um. So around all of this,

3071
02:59:26,560 --> 02:59:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, increased discussion around immigration in two seventeen UM,

3072
02:59:30,800 --> 02:59:33,320
Speaker 1: around the same time people in Western Canada had We're

3073
02:59:33,320 --> 02:59:35,640
Speaker 1: facing a bit of an economic recession. They had you know,

3074
02:59:35,920 --> 02:59:39,160
Speaker 1: significant job loss around this time UM, and projects that

3075
02:59:39,240 --> 02:59:41,760
Speaker 1: traditionally brought work to the area, like pipelines were you know,

3076
02:59:41,840 --> 02:59:44,160
Speaker 1: there was discussion of them getting stalled and people you know,

3077
02:59:44,360 --> 02:59:46,760
Speaker 1: moving more towards renewable energy. This kind of increased a

3078
02:59:46,800 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 1: lot of the political tensions between the Eastern you know,

3079
02:59:49,400 --> 02:59:54,200
Speaker 1: liberal majority Canada and the western more rule Canada. Um

3080
02:59:54,800 --> 02:59:57,880
Speaker 1: quoting an article from the CBC, uh, Toureau just keeps

3081
02:59:57,920 --> 03:00:02,240
Speaker 1: giving away all of our money to immigrants. Samantha two boy,

3082
03:00:02,320 --> 03:00:03,960
Speaker 1: that is a that is a French name. I'm not

3083
03:00:04,040 --> 03:00:10,400
Speaker 1: even attempted that one. Samantha Frenchie anyway, this mother of five,

3084
03:00:10,640 --> 03:00:14,440
Speaker 1: she attained a January fifth rally with a webster, her husband,

3085
03:00:14,560 --> 03:00:17,039
Speaker 1: and two of their children. It was her first protest

3086
03:00:17,160 --> 03:00:20,040
Speaker 1: for any cause we're stuck paying for all this money

3087
03:00:20,120 --> 03:00:22,440
Speaker 1: that he wants to give away to everybody but Canadians.

3088
03:00:22,760 --> 03:00:24,760
Speaker 1: My kids are growing up, and my grandkids and all

3089
03:00:24,800 --> 03:00:26,400
Speaker 1: of their kids are going to be poor and stuck

3090
03:00:26,440 --> 03:00:27,880
Speaker 1: in a hole that they're never going to get out of.

3091
03:00:29,320 --> 03:00:31,480
Speaker 1: This is this is you know, very common type of thing,

3092
03:00:31,640 --> 03:00:34,080
Speaker 1: like oh, we're getting taxed and taking all of our

3093
03:00:34,120 --> 03:00:36,400
Speaker 1: money and giving giving away to immigrants. This happened after this,

3094
03:00:36,520 --> 03:00:39,400
Speaker 1: after the Syrian refugee crisis, when Canada is sort of

3095
03:00:39,440 --> 03:00:42,120
Speaker 1: accepting a lot of Syrian immigrants. That's that's around the

3096
03:00:42,120 --> 03:00:46,320
Speaker 1: time that I left Canada. Um. But I totally remember people,

3097
03:00:46,400 --> 03:00:50,120
Speaker 1: you know having very similar sentiments of like, why are

3098
03:00:50,160 --> 03:00:53,160
Speaker 1: we you know, paying for all of these refugees, you know,

3099
03:00:53,240 --> 03:00:55,640
Speaker 1: and and that that that's that's the thing that happens

3100
03:00:55,640 --> 03:00:59,560
Speaker 1: in the States too, yeah. Um. So the economic tensions

3101
03:00:59,560 --> 03:01:02,760
Speaker 1: developed in Western Canada, combined with the increase in anti

3102
03:01:02,760 --> 03:01:05,880
Speaker 1: immigration sentiments among conservatives, were in part spurred by the

3103
03:01:05,879 --> 03:01:10,760
Speaker 1: Trump presidency, led to the Canadian Yellow Vest movement. UM.

3104
03:01:11,280 --> 03:01:14,240
Speaker 1: This is totally separate from the French protest movement. UM.

3105
03:01:14,320 --> 03:01:17,400
Speaker 1: The Canadian version just stole like the working class branding

3106
03:01:17,840 --> 03:01:21,120
Speaker 1: and just used it for their proto fascist crusade. Um.

3107
03:01:21,400 --> 03:01:25,400
Speaker 1: So the Canadian yellow Vests were a a group of

3108
03:01:26,000 --> 03:01:30,440
Speaker 1: connected protest movements over the course of nineteen that had

3109
03:01:30,480 --> 03:01:32,320
Speaker 1: a lot of like impersonalities but also a lot of

3110
03:01:32,400 --> 03:01:36,000
Speaker 1: online mobilization. It's kind of since tid out, but it

3111
03:01:36,200 --> 03:01:39,640
Speaker 1: was a major force in pushing right wing extremism in

3112
03:01:39,760 --> 03:01:44,600
Speaker 1: Canada and having it be accessible to like regular people.

3113
03:01:44,760 --> 03:01:47,040
Speaker 1: Right It's it's not it's not like the Proud Boys

3114
03:01:47,080 --> 03:01:48,720
Speaker 1: at all, where it's like you know, specific you know,

3115
03:01:48,920 --> 03:01:51,960
Speaker 1: bad people doing this thing. It was like appealing to like,

3116
03:01:52,040 --> 03:01:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, the oil workers, appealing to like the moms.

3117
03:01:55,040 --> 03:01:56,959
Speaker 1: It was like it was, it was. It was primarily

3118
03:01:57,040 --> 03:02:00,680
Speaker 1: used Facebook as a means of sting off this type

3119
03:02:00,680 --> 03:02:04,520
Speaker 1: of information and making it seem you know, acceptable. UM

3120
03:02:05,120 --> 03:02:09,000
Speaker 1: the Canadian Loovest's quoting an article from vice UM Canadian yelvests,

3121
03:02:09,000 --> 03:02:11,080
Speaker 1: which had over a hundred thousand members on their Facebook

3122
03:02:11,080 --> 03:02:16,080
Speaker 1: as of May, carries the greatest potential for radicalization leading

3123
03:02:16,120 --> 03:02:18,680
Speaker 1: to violence in Canada right now, according to the executive

3124
03:02:18,720 --> 03:02:21,480
Speaker 1: director of the Canadian Anti Hate Network UH. The group's

3125
03:02:21,480 --> 03:02:24,320
Speaker 1: description says it says it was created to protest the

3126
03:02:24,440 --> 03:02:28,040
Speaker 1: carbon tax and build that pipeline and stand against the

3127
03:02:28,120 --> 03:02:30,480
Speaker 1: treason of our country's politicians who have the audacity to

3128
03:02:30,560 --> 03:02:34,080
Speaker 1: sell our country's sovereignty over to the globalist u N

3129
03:02:34,200 --> 03:02:38,040
Speaker 1: and their tyrannical policies. But concerns over Canadian soil sector

3130
03:02:38,120 --> 03:02:41,120
Speaker 1: appeared to be a very little factor in the discussion

3131
03:02:41,160 --> 03:02:44,200
Speaker 1: that goes on inside these groups. Instead, members are obsessing

3132
03:02:44,280 --> 03:02:47,400
Speaker 1: over with the defending you know, Western civilization from Islam,

3133
03:02:47,840 --> 03:02:50,920
Speaker 1: bashing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and spreading whatever you know,

3134
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:53,200
Speaker 1: far right conspiracy theory is trending at the time, and

3135
03:02:53,320 --> 03:02:56,200
Speaker 1: I cannot overstate the amount that these people hate Trudeau.

3136
03:02:56,520 --> 03:02:59,200
Speaker 1: But it's it's not for like reasons because he wore

3137
03:02:59,240 --> 03:03:02,560
Speaker 1: black face. Like they find the most bizarre ways to

3138
03:03:02,800 --> 03:03:05,640
Speaker 1: hate this man. Um A lot of these people think

3139
03:03:05,720 --> 03:03:08,760
Speaker 1: that Justin Trudeau is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro.

3140
03:03:09,160 --> 03:03:15,920
Speaker 1: This is this is this is a very a very

3141
03:03:16,080 --> 03:03:20,480
Speaker 1: popular conspiracy theory in Canada. It is like the way

3142
03:03:20,600 --> 03:03:23,320
Speaker 1: that Trudeau is treated by Conservatives is baffling because like,

3143
03:03:23,440 --> 03:03:25,720
Speaker 1: I hate Justin Trudeau, but I think I hate him

3144
03:03:25,720 --> 03:03:28,120
Speaker 1: for like reasonable reasons, Like he made a lot bunch

3145
03:03:28,120 --> 03:03:30,480
Speaker 1: of promises around you know, environment stuff that he didn't

3146
03:03:30,480 --> 03:03:33,840
Speaker 1: follow through on. He doesn't do he doesn't do anything

3147
03:03:34,200 --> 03:03:37,760
Speaker 1: he is. He does a lot of blackface. It's like

3148
03:03:38,680 --> 03:03:41,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons to hate Justin Trudeau, but

3149
03:03:41,360 --> 03:03:44,199
Speaker 1: not because he's the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro leading

3150
03:03:44,400 --> 03:03:46,920
Speaker 1: us to like leading trying to sneak Canada into what

3151
03:03:47,000 --> 03:03:49,320
Speaker 1: the socialist you end, Like, that's not that's not what

3152
03:03:49,400 --> 03:03:51,960
Speaker 1: he's doing, Like, yeah, he was the illegitimate son of

3153
03:03:52,000 --> 03:03:55,000
Speaker 1: Fidel Castro. There's a couple of those in the United States.

3154
03:03:55,080 --> 03:03:57,320
Speaker 1: One of his daughters is now like a right wing

3155
03:03:57,520 --> 03:04:01,600
Speaker 1: radio personality, and god, that makes so much sense. He

3156
03:04:02,800 --> 03:04:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, he's castro. He did a lot of fucking

3157
03:04:04,920 --> 03:04:07,600
Speaker 1: like who who would care? It's not your your fault,

3158
03:04:07,640 --> 03:04:10,200
Speaker 1: who your dad is. It's just like this is it's

3159
03:04:10,320 --> 03:04:15,920
Speaker 1: it's like it's like a weaker, like funnier version of birtherism. Yeah,

3160
03:04:16,400 --> 03:04:19,400
Speaker 1: it is. It makes it. It is like the Canadian

3161
03:04:19,520 --> 03:04:23,720
Speaker 1: version of that. Like it's very weird. He's like Justin

3162
03:04:23,760 --> 03:04:25,960
Speaker 1: Trudeau is very cringe e. He lies about all of

3163
03:04:26,000 --> 03:04:29,120
Speaker 1: his promises. Um, he talks about game, He does a

3164
03:04:29,160 --> 03:04:30,960
Speaker 1: lot of virtue signaling. He does a lot of black face.

3165
03:04:31,040 --> 03:04:35,000
Speaker 1: There's are all really good reasons to face. Um, yeah,

3166
03:04:35,040 --> 03:04:38,240
Speaker 1: a lot of black face. But the way the ways

3167
03:04:38,280 --> 03:04:39,960
Speaker 1: that they come up with trying to make him seem

3168
03:04:40,000 --> 03:04:43,080
Speaker 1: like a bad dude or just baffling, um, very very bizarre.

3169
03:04:43,240 --> 03:04:46,720
Speaker 1: So um. In an interview with somebody from the Yellow

3170
03:04:46,800 --> 03:04:49,560
Speaker 1: Vests exposed Anti Fascist Research Team, which was a very

3171
03:04:49,560 --> 03:04:53,240
Speaker 1: good Twitter account around it's it's it's inactive now, but

3172
03:04:53,360 --> 03:04:55,119
Speaker 1: this this was a very good account, a very good

3173
03:04:55,120 --> 03:04:57,280
Speaker 1: account that did really really solid research into the into

3174
03:04:57,320 --> 03:04:59,920
Speaker 1: the Yellows movement UM. In an interview, they were asked

3175
03:05:00,080 --> 03:05:01,960
Speaker 1: type of impact they think the yellowsts could have in

3176
03:05:02,040 --> 03:05:06,080
Speaker 1: Canada and this was This was their response. The image

3177
03:05:06,080 --> 03:05:09,160
Speaker 1: of the threat is no longer the skinhead, blood, blood,

3178
03:05:09,160 --> 03:05:11,400
Speaker 1: blood and honor type. We're dealing with average people who

3179
03:05:11,440 --> 03:05:14,080
Speaker 1: don't understand the impact of the rhetoric. They're calling for

3180
03:05:14,160 --> 03:05:16,840
Speaker 1: the mass death of an entire religion, or they're celebrating them,

3181
03:05:16,959 --> 03:05:19,520
Speaker 1: or they're celebrating the violence against that religion, or they're

3182
03:05:19,520 --> 03:05:22,840
Speaker 1: celebrating violence against government officials. They are just one step

3183
03:05:22,920 --> 03:05:25,480
Speaker 1: away from outright fascism, but they can't see that, and

3184
03:05:25,520 --> 03:05:28,280
Speaker 1: they refuse to see that, which I think it's very

3185
03:05:28,400 --> 03:05:31,520
Speaker 1: is a very good UM summary of like how the

3186
03:05:31,760 --> 03:05:36,959
Speaker 1: yellow vests were a popular movement specifically on Facebook. UM.

3187
03:05:37,800 --> 03:05:40,320
Speaker 1: Another part of it was the idea of like Western

3188
03:05:40,400 --> 03:05:43,279
Speaker 1: separatism UM, Like you know, the people in Western Canada

3189
03:05:43,360 --> 03:05:45,720
Speaker 1: feel ignored, They feel you know, put upon, they feel

3190
03:05:45,720 --> 03:05:48,600
Speaker 1: oppressed not just for feelings, not not just for being Westerners,

3191
03:05:48,879 --> 03:05:52,760
Speaker 1: but they honestly feel oppressed because they're white. They feel like, oh,

3192
03:05:52,879 --> 03:05:55,160
Speaker 1: we're focusing on you know, only going to give money

3193
03:05:55,200 --> 03:05:57,520
Speaker 1: to the brown people. That's the kind of thing that

3194
03:05:57,600 --> 03:06:00,640
Speaker 1: they feel like in the West. UM, they're like, well,

3195
03:06:00,760 --> 03:06:02,600
Speaker 1: you know, my right to free speech was taken away

3196
03:06:02,640 --> 03:06:05,360
Speaker 1: because of the because of the non binding bill, and

3197
03:06:05,560 --> 03:06:07,720
Speaker 1: refugees can just walk across the border and they make

3198
03:06:07,800 --> 03:06:09,640
Speaker 1: more money than I do. So they they have they

3199
03:06:09,680 --> 03:06:11,480
Speaker 1: have all these all these ideas that are not actually

3200
03:06:11,480 --> 03:06:14,120
Speaker 1: based in reality, but they can believe them. UM. And

3201
03:06:14,280 --> 03:06:16,000
Speaker 1: they you know, find these news sources that are just

3202
03:06:16,080 --> 03:06:18,920
Speaker 1: echo chambers that reinforce this belief to the point where

3203
03:06:19,000 --> 03:06:23,520
Speaker 1: they become radicalize themselves. UM. It's very it's a very

3204
03:06:23,760 --> 03:06:26,879
Speaker 1: very common thing, especially around twenties nineteen. I was tracking

3205
03:06:26,879 --> 03:06:28,840
Speaker 1: a lot of these Facebook groups around twenty nine as well,

3206
03:06:29,120 --> 03:06:31,920
Speaker 1: just in my spare time, UM, because it's just interesting

3207
03:06:31,959 --> 03:06:36,120
Speaker 1: to watch them interact. UM. I'm gonna give like, you know,

3208
03:06:36,240 --> 03:06:39,880
Speaker 1: like a brief recap of like a typical yell yellow

3209
03:06:39,920 --> 03:06:43,520
Speaker 1: best protest around like Edmonton, UM, based a bit off

3210
03:06:43,520 --> 03:06:46,080
Speaker 1: of of of of of a few CBC articles. So

3211
03:06:46,200 --> 03:06:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, protesters would gather around in front of UM

3212
03:06:49,480 --> 03:06:55,039
Speaker 1: like the Legislative building, holding signs, wearing bright yellow vests. UM.

3213
03:06:55,280 --> 03:06:57,920
Speaker 1: And they would do this like basically every every weekend

3214
03:06:58,440 --> 03:07:01,120
Speaker 1: for you know, months and months and months on end. Um.

3215
03:07:01,280 --> 03:07:03,920
Speaker 1: Some protesters when we stand at the podium showing conspiracy

3216
03:07:03,959 --> 03:07:07,039
Speaker 1: theories about how powerful the Jewish families controlling the world are.

3217
03:07:07,520 --> 03:07:10,120
Speaker 1: Um as one as one dude did at the Alberta

3218
03:07:10,800 --> 03:07:16,400
Speaker 1: legislature um on like January. Um. Some may come sporting

3219
03:07:16,760 --> 03:07:21,600
Speaker 1: red make Alberta great again. Hats uh this was very

3220
03:07:21,879 --> 03:07:26,039
Speaker 1: very popular, very popular. Um. Others may proud the sidelines,

3221
03:07:26,040 --> 03:07:28,000
Speaker 1: stress like they belong to a biker gang. Um. Instead

3222
03:07:28,000 --> 03:07:30,480
Speaker 1: of only instead of Hell's Angels patches, they have patricks

3223
03:07:30,520 --> 03:07:35,800
Speaker 1: that say Wolves of Odin and Canadian Infidels. Uh. I'm

3224
03:07:35,840 --> 03:07:38,040
Speaker 1: gonna give you one, guests, what type of ideology the

3225
03:07:38,280 --> 03:07:44,920
Speaker 1: Wolves of Odin have? Yeah? The the communists, Yeah, no,

3226
03:07:45,040 --> 03:07:48,440
Speaker 1: they're not easy. Um. But most of the protesters voices

3227
03:07:48,480 --> 03:07:51,000
Speaker 1: are not away from are not from the fringes. Most

3228
03:07:51,040 --> 03:07:53,480
Speaker 1: of them just have jobs, um you know, you know

3229
03:07:53,600 --> 03:07:55,800
Speaker 1: in like high rises, or they drive it for uber

3230
03:07:56,000 --> 03:07:58,600
Speaker 1: or their teachers or pipe fitters or real estate agents.

3231
03:07:59,400 --> 03:08:01,960
Speaker 1: And although their message is like muddled by all of

3232
03:08:02,000 --> 03:08:04,480
Speaker 1: these other like you know, much more overtly extremist kind

3233
03:08:04,480 --> 03:08:06,760
Speaker 1: of talking points, they all have one thing in common

3234
03:08:06,800 --> 03:08:08,680
Speaker 1: that they feel like they're getting ignored and being left

3235
03:08:08,720 --> 03:08:11,960
Speaker 1: behind by the liberals in the East. UM. This is

3236
03:08:12,040 --> 03:08:14,160
Speaker 1: echoed by one of the person that got interviewed at

3237
03:08:14,160 --> 03:08:16,640
Speaker 1: these rallies was named Lynn Smith, who was a former

3238
03:08:17,200 --> 03:08:20,039
Speaker 1: oil and gas worker who now works in the school system. UM.

3239
03:08:20,480 --> 03:08:22,680
Speaker 1: They were at a a yellow vest rally on in

3240
03:08:22,800 --> 03:08:26,879
Speaker 1: January nine that was like the first first fourth protest

3241
03:08:27,000 --> 03:08:30,400
Speaker 1: she attended. UM. She said, they're just giving away our country.

3242
03:08:30,760 --> 03:08:33,000
Speaker 1: We have no rights anymore, they're taking them away. No

3243
03:08:33,160 --> 03:08:35,640
Speaker 1: more Lord's prayer, but they're putting prayer, prayer rooms in

3244
03:08:35,680 --> 03:08:39,240
Speaker 1: schools for Muslims. Um, Mary, Christmas, you're you're You're not

3245
03:08:39,280 --> 03:08:40,800
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to say anymore. It's supposed to be

3246
03:08:40,800 --> 03:08:43,480
Speaker 1: happy holidays. They're changing, they're changing our country, and we've

3247
03:08:43,480 --> 03:08:45,480
Speaker 1: got to stand up and say something about it, because

3248
03:08:45,840 --> 03:08:47,920
Speaker 1: because this is our country. I was born here, my

3249
03:08:48,000 --> 03:08:51,720
Speaker 1: parents are born here. It's wrong. So, you know, I'm

3250
03:08:51,760 --> 03:08:53,840
Speaker 1: sure people in the States they're familiar with this type

3251
03:08:53,840 --> 03:08:57,440
Speaker 1: of rhetoric. Um, but just the the increased nature of

3252
03:08:57,520 --> 03:09:00,520
Speaker 1: in Canada was surprising to a lot of Nadians, and

3253
03:09:00,600 --> 03:09:02,920
Speaker 1: like president of a lot of like liberal Canadians, because

3254
03:09:02,920 --> 03:09:05,400
Speaker 1: they're like, but you're you're in Canada. Why are you

3255
03:09:05,440 --> 03:09:07,160
Speaker 1: doing the States thing? What? Why are you doing the

3256
03:09:07,200 --> 03:09:08,480
Speaker 1: thing that they do in the States. Why are you

3257
03:09:08,560 --> 03:09:11,080
Speaker 1: doing it here? Um? But you know the same reason

3258
03:09:11,120 --> 03:09:12,600
Speaker 1: you know people do in the States is because they

3259
03:09:12,640 --> 03:09:15,080
Speaker 1: feel ignored by politicians, you know, saying that's that's why

3260
03:09:15,160 --> 03:09:19,280
Speaker 1: this happens in Saskatchewan and Alberta m NBC way more

3261
03:09:19,320 --> 03:09:21,600
Speaker 1: than it happens in like Ontario, right is because you know,

3262
03:09:21,720 --> 03:09:23,720
Speaker 1: the more farther away you are from you know, the

3263
03:09:23,800 --> 03:09:26,640
Speaker 1: big cities, the less your interests are cared for by

3264
03:09:26,640 --> 03:09:28,440
Speaker 1: a lot of politicians. So the ones that speak to

3265
03:09:28,480 --> 03:09:30,400
Speaker 1: you are these like extremists who are trying to prey

3266
03:09:30,480 --> 03:09:34,920
Speaker 1: on these actual you know, financial insecurities. Um so. A

3267
03:09:35,000 --> 03:09:36,840
Speaker 1: lot some of the protesters say that they're not like

3268
03:09:36,920 --> 03:09:39,720
Speaker 1: a post immigration but but most of the focus of

3269
03:09:39,760 --> 03:09:42,600
Speaker 1: the Edmonton Yellow Best rallies has been has been about

3270
03:09:42,640 --> 03:09:44,440
Speaker 1: who can come into the country and how they're allowed

3271
03:09:44,480 --> 03:09:48,039
Speaker 1: to get here. Um uh. One one guy named Brett Webster,

3272
03:09:48,280 --> 03:09:52,080
Speaker 1: the father of five, who works like a construction construction industry, says,

3273
03:09:52,320 --> 03:09:54,879
Speaker 1: they're overwhelming our resources. We can't properly let these people

3274
03:09:54,879 --> 03:09:56,120
Speaker 1: and make sure it's safe for them to come in

3275
03:09:56,400 --> 03:09:58,320
Speaker 1: and make sure that they're skilled and assimilate into our

3276
03:09:58,360 --> 03:10:01,880
Speaker 1: country and know our ways and our values. So most

3277
03:10:01,920 --> 03:10:04,520
Speaker 1: of the extremest stuff in Canada outside of Quebec does

3278
03:10:04,600 --> 03:10:07,440
Speaker 1: come from does come specifically from Alberta. You know, the

3279
03:10:07,480 --> 03:10:10,280
Speaker 1: big big cities in Alberta are are Calgary and Edmonton.

3280
03:10:10,680 --> 03:10:12,600
Speaker 1: This happens also in a lot of the more rural

3281
03:10:12,640 --> 03:10:14,760
Speaker 1: areas that you know, mostly used to run on like

3282
03:10:14,920 --> 03:10:19,120
Speaker 1: oil drilling. Um. After losing an election to the more

3283
03:10:19,240 --> 03:10:24,360
Speaker 1: social democratic NDP party, UH, the two provincial Conservative parties

3284
03:10:24,400 --> 03:10:27,280
Speaker 1: in Alberta had their own little mini Unite the Right

3285
03:10:27,400 --> 03:10:30,480
Speaker 1: and merged together in to us in seventeen, leading to

3286
03:10:30,520 --> 03:10:33,040
Speaker 1: their success in the polls in nineteen. So then the

3287
03:10:33,120 --> 03:10:35,480
Speaker 1: Conservatives have since then, they've done a whole bunch of

3288
03:10:35,520 --> 03:10:38,560
Speaker 1: stuff in Alberta, like cutting down their health care to

3289
03:10:38,640 --> 03:10:40,360
Speaker 1: actually a lot of a lot of the Conservative voters

3290
03:10:40,400 --> 03:10:42,600
Speaker 1: don't like, but like they voted for because that was

3291
03:10:42,640 --> 03:10:45,440
Speaker 1: the platform. You just were being scared of brown people,

3292
03:10:45,480 --> 03:10:47,360
Speaker 1: so you voted for the Conservatives. But now but now

3293
03:10:47,440 --> 03:10:51,480
Speaker 1: your healthcare is cut. So that's that's how politics works. Um.

3294
03:10:52,160 --> 03:10:53,680
Speaker 1: So that that's kind of a brief summary of the

3295
03:10:53,760 --> 03:10:55,920
Speaker 1: Yellowist movement and how it how it gained a lot

3296
03:10:55,959 --> 03:10:58,920
Speaker 1: of popularity. Um. They they would do rallies around like

3297
03:10:59,000 --> 03:11:00,959
Speaker 1: polling centers, the would they would they would like they

3298
03:11:01,000 --> 03:11:04,400
Speaker 1: would attack people. They would have you know, violent rallies

3299
03:11:04,440 --> 03:11:06,960
Speaker 1: where a lot of like older older men who were

3300
03:11:06,959 --> 03:11:09,600
Speaker 1: in the Yellows movement would be you know, pretty violence

3301
03:11:09,640 --> 03:11:13,000
Speaker 1: towards you know and anyone in their area during a protest. UM.

3302
03:11:14,120 --> 03:11:17,879
Speaker 1: But they kind of kind of around COVID, the Yellow

3303
03:11:17,920 --> 03:11:20,760
Speaker 1: Vess kind of sput it out. A lot of the

3304
03:11:20,800 --> 03:11:23,160
Speaker 1: people in these Facebook groups got you know, moved into

3305
03:11:23,320 --> 03:11:26,560
Speaker 1: other conspiracy theory groups um, and the l S movement

3306
03:11:26,640 --> 03:11:28,840
Speaker 1: kind of lost its train. UM. So that's where we're

3307
03:11:28,879 --> 03:11:31,000
Speaker 1: kind of going to end for today, is with the

3308
03:11:31,080 --> 03:11:34,080
Speaker 1: kind of the Eloss kind of fizzling out. And then

3309
03:11:34,080 --> 03:11:37,360
Speaker 1: the next part we'll talk about what's happening from and

3310
03:11:37,480 --> 03:11:39,960
Speaker 1: the election that year took like kind of the present

3311
03:11:40,400 --> 03:11:45,560
Speaker 1: fascist rumblings um inside different sectors of Canadian politics. So yeah,

3312
03:11:45,760 --> 03:11:48,520
Speaker 1: that is that's my that's my very very brief right

3313
03:11:48,640 --> 03:11:53,080
Speaker 1: up of of right wing populism and extremism in Canada.

3314
03:11:53,640 --> 03:12:00,560
Speaker 1: Uh pre p yep. It's fun. It's not, it's it's

3315
03:12:00,600 --> 03:12:04,000
Speaker 1: it's it's it's upsetting. Um, and it's you know, it's

3316
03:12:04,000 --> 03:12:05,560
Speaker 1: a lot of the same problems we have here of

3317
03:12:05,680 --> 03:12:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, politicians really ignoring people in certain parts of

3318
03:12:09,000 --> 03:12:12,960
Speaker 1: the country which provide provide very fertile recruiting ground for

3319
03:12:13,040 --> 03:12:15,480
Speaker 1: a lot of extremists. I think it's going to all

3320
03:12:15,640 --> 03:12:20,120
Speaker 1: end well, well, that is our that is our that

3321
03:12:20,280 --> 03:12:22,760
Speaker 1: is our official policy, that everything is going to turn

3322
03:12:22,800 --> 03:12:26,600
Speaker 1: out great. Yeah, it seems fine. I mean there's like

3323
03:12:26,680 --> 03:12:28,640
Speaker 1: there is actual ways of preventing this from happening. Right,

3324
03:12:28,640 --> 03:12:30,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's not it's not a hopeless thing. We

3325
03:12:30,440 --> 03:12:33,360
Speaker 1: can actually do it if we want to. Just people

3326
03:12:33,360 --> 03:12:37,080
Speaker 1: with power to do it, don't don't don't like doing it. Yeah,

3327
03:12:37,640 --> 03:12:41,040
Speaker 1: well and good, that is the message of the pod Sophie.

3328
03:12:41,360 --> 03:12:49,360
Speaker 1: Cool and good. So yep, that's that's Canadian fascism part one. Cool. Um.

3329
03:12:49,560 --> 03:12:51,400
Speaker 1: I would recommend if people want to learn more about

3330
03:12:51,440 --> 03:12:55,119
Speaker 1: the Canadian uh yellow vests, check out the yellow Best

3331
03:12:55,160 --> 03:12:58,640
Speaker 1: Exposed Twitter account. Uh. There's also like there's also articles

3332
03:12:58,640 --> 03:13:01,640
Speaker 1: about them. They were a very very good anti fascist

3333
03:13:02,040 --> 03:13:04,960
Speaker 1: research team. Um. Yeah, I would just recommend if you

3334
03:13:05,000 --> 03:13:07,080
Speaker 1: want to learn more about this the specific movement, all

3335
03:13:07,120 --> 03:13:10,320
Speaker 1: of their work on it has been great. Um, so yeah,

3336
03:13:10,560 --> 03:13:17,320
Speaker 1: shout out, shout out to yellow vests exposed. That's the pod. Alright,

3337
03:13:17,520 --> 03:13:21,080
Speaker 1: Well go get your Tim Hortons and tomorrow, Yeah, I

3338
03:13:21,120 --> 03:13:23,280
Speaker 1: go get your Tim Horton's and you're I don't know,

3339
03:13:23,400 --> 03:13:27,080
Speaker 1: maple syrup and go find a moose, find and just

3340
03:13:27,320 --> 03:13:31,080
Speaker 1: follow us. Zone Media or happened here? Pot on, the

3341
03:13:31,200 --> 03:13:38,240
Speaker 1: twits and the inst against Bye bye everybody, a goodbye,

3342
03:13:38,320 --> 03:13:52,280
Speaker 1: a hello. Nope, that's not it. Nope, that's it. Garrison

3343
03:13:52,640 --> 03:13:59,280
Speaker 1: started the episode. Yes, has begun, It cannot be unbegun.

3344
03:13:59,320 --> 03:14:02,080
Speaker 1: A oh that's all right. Let's let's roll right into it.

3345
03:14:02,160 --> 03:14:06,560
Speaker 1: Let's talk so well, welcome. This says it could happen here.

3346
03:14:06,720 --> 03:14:10,880
Speaker 1: Um today the today, the here is is Canada, that

3347
03:14:11,080 --> 03:14:13,440
Speaker 1: is the that is where it could happen. Um. This

3348
03:14:13,600 --> 03:14:15,200
Speaker 1: is gonna be part two of my little deep dive

3349
03:14:15,600 --> 03:14:18,480
Speaker 1: into Canadian fascism and the far right rumblings in general

3350
03:14:18,920 --> 03:14:21,200
Speaker 1: in the Great White North. And oh god, that is

3351
03:14:21,280 --> 03:14:24,960
Speaker 1: a bad, bad nickname for Canada, the Great White North.

3352
03:14:27,040 --> 03:14:31,880
Speaker 1: Did not really think that went through, oopsie doodle of

3353
03:14:33,360 --> 03:14:37,520
Speaker 1: maybe the yeah, there's a good chance did anyway. Um,

3354
03:14:37,680 --> 03:14:42,000
Speaker 1: the last episode we left off with the Canadian yellow vests. Um,

3355
03:14:42,120 --> 03:14:44,800
Speaker 1: and you know of frightening increase in Islamophobia and anti

3356
03:14:44,800 --> 03:14:51,200
Speaker 1: immigration rhetoric around late after Trump selection. And we started

3357
03:14:51,240 --> 03:14:54,520
Speaker 1: the last episode by talking about one of Canada's first

3358
03:14:54,640 --> 03:14:57,560
Speaker 1: fascist political parties. And we're gonna start to part two

3359
03:14:57,959 --> 03:15:01,480
Speaker 1: but talking about Canada's new kne oh fascist political party

3360
03:15:01,600 --> 03:15:04,960
Speaker 1: that also got started inside the province of Quebec, just

3361
03:15:05,120 --> 03:15:07,880
Speaker 1: like the National Unity Party did. Uh. This one is

3362
03:15:07,959 --> 03:15:12,680
Speaker 1: called the People's Party of Canada. Um. Before we get

3363
03:15:12,760 --> 03:15:15,160
Speaker 1: into the People's Party, And first to give some background

3364
03:15:15,280 --> 03:15:18,760
Speaker 1: on the founder of the party, Maxine Bernier. Um. And

3365
03:15:18,840 --> 03:15:21,280
Speaker 1: that's how that's that's how I'm gonna say his name. Um,

3366
03:15:21,560 --> 03:15:25,760
Speaker 1: No one at me, It's good enough. Um. Bernair was

3367
03:15:25,840 --> 03:15:28,080
Speaker 1: born in Quebec in nineteen sixty three. On is the

3368
03:15:28,200 --> 03:15:31,959
Speaker 1: son of a Conservative talk radio host turned politician. Isn't

3369
03:15:32,000 --> 03:15:38,680
Speaker 1: that funny? Isn't that funny? How that keeps happening? Um? Yeah.

3370
03:15:38,800 --> 03:15:43,080
Speaker 1: So Bernair entered politics into US in six um. He

3371
03:15:43,240 --> 03:15:45,280
Speaker 1: ran as the Conservative Party candidate for the House of

3372
03:15:45,480 --> 03:15:48,040
Speaker 1: Commons in the same writing district that his father had

3373
03:15:48,080 --> 03:15:51,960
Speaker 1: represented in the eighties and nineties. Stephen Harper, leader of

3374
03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:55,520
Speaker 1: the New United Conservative Party initially wanted Maxine's father to

3375
03:15:55,640 --> 03:15:59,040
Speaker 1: re enter politics, but Bernair Senior was less keen on

3376
03:15:59,120 --> 03:16:01,840
Speaker 1: that idea, and in dead told Harper that he that

3377
03:16:02,120 --> 03:16:06,040
Speaker 1: perhaps his son should run in his place. Radio and nepotism,

3378
03:16:06,400 --> 03:16:12,000
Speaker 1: radio and nepotism, yep, and politicians and yeah it is

3379
03:16:12,120 --> 03:16:15,039
Speaker 1: it is starting great. Um. So at this point Bernair

3380
03:16:15,160 --> 03:16:19,240
Speaker 1: was more like a free market libertarian, libertarian type guy,

3381
03:16:19,760 --> 03:16:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, still with some of the same like conservative

3382
03:16:22,320 --> 03:16:25,040
Speaker 1: immigration stuff that's that's common in Quebec, but he was

3383
03:16:25,120 --> 03:16:28,600
Speaker 1: more of just like a libertarian dude. Berner easily won

3384
03:16:28,879 --> 03:16:31,400
Speaker 1: the writing writings for what we call districts here in

3385
03:16:31,440 --> 03:16:35,040
Speaker 1: the States, ranking at sixty seven percent of the popular vote,

3386
03:16:35,080 --> 03:16:38,760
Speaker 1: which was the largest majority for a Conservative politician outside

3387
03:16:38,760 --> 03:16:41,120
Speaker 1: of the province of Alberta. So he he did, he

3388
03:16:41,240 --> 03:16:44,160
Speaker 1: did very well. Bernaer, who had a background in business,

3389
03:16:44,400 --> 03:16:47,280
Speaker 1: quickly rose through the ranks of the Conservative Party. Within

3390
03:16:47,360 --> 03:16:49,400
Speaker 1: the same year, he was appointed to be a cabinet

3391
03:16:49,440 --> 03:16:52,200
Speaker 1: minister in the Harper government. Um and he worked as

3392
03:16:52,280 --> 03:16:54,880
Speaker 1: a as an industry minister from to us in six

3393
03:16:55,000 --> 03:16:57,640
Speaker 1: to US and seven before being promoted to a foreign

3394
03:16:57,680 --> 03:17:00,480
Speaker 1: affairs minister and then in two thousands eleven, he was

3395
03:17:00,480 --> 03:17:03,320
Speaker 1: appointed of he was appointed as Minister of the State.

3396
03:17:04,879 --> 03:17:08,800
Speaker 1: So in in spring of after the fifth after the

3397
03:17:09,480 --> 03:17:12,840
Speaker 1: federal election, uh Brennair put in his bid to be

3398
03:17:12,959 --> 03:17:17,160
Speaker 1: the new elected Conservative Party leader. Um, so I'm gonna

3399
03:17:17,200 --> 03:17:20,680
Speaker 1: briefly explain how Canadian elections work. You You don't vote

3400
03:17:20,920 --> 03:17:23,880
Speaker 1: for a prime minister. You vote for a party within

3401
03:17:24,040 --> 03:17:28,039
Speaker 1: your specific district if you if if your party wins,

3402
03:17:28,400 --> 03:17:30,480
Speaker 1: they get a seat in parliament. Whoever has the most

3403
03:17:30,480 --> 03:17:33,960
Speaker 1: seats in parliament, that's whose prime minister gets elected. So

3404
03:17:34,480 --> 03:17:36,840
Speaker 1: whoever is whoever is the leader of the party, they

3405
03:17:36,879 --> 03:17:39,200
Speaker 1: will be prime minister if that party gets in the

3406
03:17:39,280 --> 03:17:42,880
Speaker 1: most seats. So in two as in sixteen, Burnair put

3407
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:46,160
Speaker 1: in his bid to be the new Conservative Party leader. Uh.

3408
03:17:46,280 --> 03:17:49,680
Speaker 1: He got remarkably close to securing the spot as leader

3409
03:17:49,720 --> 03:17:52,520
Speaker 1: of the Conservatives. In the final round of voting, he

3410
03:17:52,680 --> 03:17:55,600
Speaker 1: received forty nine point zero five percent of the vote,

3411
03:17:56,520 --> 03:18:00,400
Speaker 1: losing to Saskatchewan Conservative politician Andrew Sheer who got fifty

3412
03:18:00,480 --> 03:18:04,920
Speaker 1: point nine percent, less less than two percent difference. He

3413
03:18:05,120 --> 03:18:08,000
Speaker 1: was so close to becoming leader of the Conservative Party,

3414
03:18:08,080 --> 03:18:13,000
Speaker 1: like ridiculous. So yeah, after his extremely slight loss, he

3415
03:18:13,120 --> 03:18:16,880
Speaker 1: continued to work in Shear's Conservative Party for a few years. Um,

3416
03:18:17,000 --> 03:18:19,480
Speaker 1: if you remember from the last episode, around this time

3417
03:18:19,879 --> 03:18:22,600
Speaker 1: was when these homophobia and anti immigration talking points were

3418
03:18:22,640 --> 03:18:26,039
Speaker 1: starting to gain a new popularity, and Berner followed along

3419
03:18:26,160 --> 03:18:28,840
Speaker 1: with this trend. He would tweet out about the dangers

3420
03:18:28,920 --> 03:18:33,959
Speaker 1: of extreme multiculturalism and he had like an increasingly racist

3421
03:18:34,000 --> 03:18:36,880
Speaker 1: and divisive rhetoric, and that kind of caused some drama

3422
03:18:36,959 --> 03:18:42,640
Speaker 1: within the Conservative establishment. So in August of eighteen, around

3423
03:18:42,680 --> 03:18:44,960
Speaker 1: the same time the Yellow vest movement in Canada was

3424
03:18:45,000 --> 03:18:49,200
Speaker 1: starting up, Berner resigned from the Conservative Party with the

3425
03:18:49,280 --> 03:18:53,119
Speaker 1: stated intention of forming a new federal populist far right

3426
03:18:53,200 --> 03:18:57,000
Speaker 1: political party. Um here here, here's a segment from his

3427
03:18:57,120 --> 03:18:59,560
Speaker 1: resignation speech and he he does talk in a very

3428
03:18:59,640 --> 03:19:08,480
Speaker 1: thick Utch accent. I am not going to do that. Yeah,

3429
03:19:08,560 --> 03:19:16,120
Speaker 1: you're channel the energy. Um that was that was just

3430
03:19:16,280 --> 03:19:22,640
Speaker 1: direct audio instead of leading as a principal Conservative and

3431
03:19:22,720 --> 03:19:25,880
Speaker 1: defending the interests of Canada and Canadians. Andrew Sheer is

3432
03:19:25,959 --> 03:19:29,400
Speaker 1: following the Trudeau Liberals. I was told that internal polling

3433
03:19:29,480 --> 03:19:32,120
Speaker 1: is showing that the Liberals response to Trump is popular

3434
03:19:32,400 --> 03:19:34,520
Speaker 1: and that in six months, if the polls change, the

3435
03:19:34,600 --> 03:19:37,720
Speaker 1: party's stand may change to the same thing happened in

3436
03:19:37,840 --> 03:19:41,320
Speaker 1: reaction to my tweets on diversity and multiculturalism. This is

3437
03:19:41,320 --> 03:19:44,160
Speaker 1: another crucial debate for the future of our country. Do

3438
03:19:44,240 --> 03:19:47,280
Speaker 1: we want to emphasize or ethnic and religious differences or

3439
03:19:47,320 --> 03:19:49,920
Speaker 1: exploit them to buy votes as the liberals are doing,

3440
03:19:50,400 --> 03:19:52,680
Speaker 1: or emphasize what unites us and the values that can

3441
03:19:52,760 --> 03:19:56,560
Speaker 1: guarantee social cohesion. Just like other Western societies grappling with

3442
03:19:56,600 --> 03:19:59,240
Speaker 1: this issue. A large number of Canadians, and certainly the

3443
03:19:59,320 --> 03:20:01,959
Speaker 1: vast majority of Conservatives, are worried that we are heading

3444
03:20:02,000 --> 03:20:05,080
Speaker 1: in the wrong direction. But it's not correct to raise

3445
03:20:05,240 --> 03:20:09,080
Speaker 1: such questions. So yeah, and I think the honestly one

3446
03:20:09,120 --> 03:20:13,720
Speaker 1: of the main reasons why Brenair hasn't been super successful

3447
03:20:14,320 --> 03:20:18,080
Speaker 1: um is because of his accent. Like he is, it's

3448
03:20:18,160 --> 03:20:24,320
Speaker 1: harder for Protestant white Canadians to support him because he

3449
03:20:24,480 --> 03:20:27,880
Speaker 1: talks with a French Canadian accent. Um If if if

3450
03:20:27,920 --> 03:20:31,520
Speaker 1: he talked in like good English, I think he would

3451
03:20:31,560 --> 03:20:34,520
Speaker 1: have he would have won Conservative leadership um and his

3452
03:20:34,640 --> 03:20:37,680
Speaker 1: Populist party would be way more popular than than than

3453
03:20:37,760 --> 03:20:42,959
Speaker 1: it is now. So critical support to other French racism

3454
03:20:43,080 --> 03:20:46,080
Speaker 1: is preventing the racist from being racist enough. Yes, you

3455
03:20:46,760 --> 03:20:52,040
Speaker 1: love to see you certainly see it. We do, we

3456
03:20:52,120 --> 03:20:55,840
Speaker 1: do see it. So Bernair faced some pushback from his

3457
03:20:55,920 --> 03:20:59,560
Speaker 1: conservative colleagues, including Stephen Harper U of trying to divide

3458
03:20:59,600 --> 03:21:02,560
Speaker 1: the right and split the right of center vote. UM

3459
03:21:03,440 --> 03:21:06,240
Speaker 1: and some of the less socially conservative members of the

3460
03:21:06,280 --> 03:21:10,600
Speaker 1: main Conservative party decried Berner's departure and subsequent New People's

3461
03:21:10,640 --> 03:21:13,160
Speaker 1: Party as just a plain attempt to pander to xenophobia

3462
03:21:13,440 --> 03:21:17,360
Speaker 1: and racist right wingers. But Berner went right to work

3463
03:21:17,680 --> 03:21:20,240
Speaker 1: and ran enough candidates under his new party to secure

3464
03:21:20,280 --> 03:21:23,400
Speaker 1: a spot in the federal election debates that were like that,

3465
03:21:23,640 --> 03:21:26,120
Speaker 1: you know that how we watch presidential debates, same thing,

3466
03:21:26,200 --> 03:21:27,920
Speaker 1: but these have you know, multiple candidates because there are

3467
03:21:28,000 --> 03:21:31,200
Speaker 1: multiple parties, the same thing. But basically he was able

3468
03:21:31,200 --> 03:21:34,560
Speaker 1: to get in the televised debates. Um, the PPC, which

3469
03:21:34,600 --> 03:21:36,160
Speaker 1: is the People's Party of Canada. I'm just gonna say

3470
03:21:36,160 --> 03:21:38,840
Speaker 1: the PPC now because it sounds funny. Um. They started

3471
03:21:38,840 --> 03:21:41,880
Speaker 1: going viral on the internet after pictures of massive billboards

3472
03:21:41,920 --> 03:21:45,200
Speaker 1: with Berner's face and big text that said say no

3473
03:21:45,640 --> 03:21:48,200
Speaker 1: to mass immigration. This this this guy very is this

3474
03:21:48,320 --> 03:21:53,320
Speaker 1: guy very Mimi around like these big these big PPC

3475
03:21:53,480 --> 03:21:56,320
Speaker 1: billboards um I'm gonna I'm gonna read a bit from

3476
03:21:56,360 --> 03:21:58,400
Speaker 1: a write up and it's going down by some local

3477
03:21:58,840 --> 03:22:03,080
Speaker 1: um Montreal anti fascists. There have been suggestions that the

3478
03:22:03,120 --> 03:22:07,119
Speaker 1: PPC spokesperson and architect of its public relations strategy, Martin Mass,

3479
03:22:07,360 --> 03:22:09,440
Speaker 1: has been key to its embrace of the far right.

3480
03:22:09,920 --> 03:22:12,880
Speaker 1: Mass was owner of the publisher of the Capucua Libre,

3481
03:22:13,280 --> 03:22:15,920
Speaker 1: which is an online libertarian news outlet that shut down

3482
03:22:15,920 --> 03:22:20,640
Speaker 1: in ten and that pp but that PPC's cozy relationship

3483
03:22:20,680 --> 03:22:22,720
Speaker 1: with racist is primarily due to the influence of this

3484
03:22:22,879 --> 03:22:26,880
Speaker 1: one person is highly doubtful. However, that's the PPC is

3485
03:22:26,920 --> 03:22:29,400
Speaker 1: positioning itself as the option of choice for those who

3486
03:22:29,480 --> 03:22:33,440
Speaker 1: find the Conservative Party insufficiently right wing. Racism is clearly

3487
03:22:33,520 --> 03:22:36,000
Speaker 1: just one of the most effective tools for such a strategy.

3488
03:22:36,280 --> 03:22:40,400
Speaker 1: Witnessing PPC billboards and tweets against mass immigration, also tweets

3489
03:22:40,440 --> 03:22:44,520
Speaker 1: about being against Antifa and Bernara's Diet tribe, about radical

3490
03:22:44,600 --> 03:22:46,880
Speaker 1: Islam being the biggest threat to freedom and peace and

3491
03:22:46,959 --> 03:22:50,119
Speaker 1: security the world today, and how he complains about other

3492
03:22:50,200 --> 03:22:54,400
Speaker 1: parties are are complacent and pandering to Islamists and promising

3493
03:22:54,440 --> 03:22:57,480
Speaker 1: that the PPC will make no compromise with the tolitarian ideology.

3494
03:22:58,240 --> 03:23:00,360
Speaker 1: A number of media articles have revealed all the far

3495
03:23:00,480 --> 03:23:03,880
Speaker 1: right connections to people active in the PPC as organizers

3496
03:23:04,240 --> 03:23:06,960
Speaker 1: and members whose signatures were used for the PPC to

3497
03:23:07,040 --> 03:23:10,640
Speaker 1: gain official party status. UM. For instance, a Derek Horn,

3498
03:23:11,000 --> 03:23:14,360
Speaker 1: the PPC volunteer and a security agent who accompanied Bernair

3499
03:23:14,680 --> 03:23:17,520
Speaker 1: at a variety of offense and media interviews. He has

3500
03:23:17,560 --> 03:23:19,640
Speaker 1: been revealed to be a founding member of the neo

3501
03:23:19,760 --> 03:23:22,920
Speaker 1: fascist Canadian Nationalist Party, which we we briefly mentioned in

3502
03:23:22,959 --> 03:23:27,200
Speaker 1: the last episode. UM. Sean Walker is an American immigrant

3503
03:23:27,240 --> 03:23:30,480
Speaker 1: and organizer with the PPC in St. Catharine's UM, as

3504
03:23:30,520 --> 03:23:31,880
Speaker 1: well as one of the people who signed on for

3505
03:23:31,920 --> 03:23:34,000
Speaker 1: PPC to be an official party. He was revealed to

3506
03:23:34,040 --> 03:23:36,640
Speaker 1: be the president of the National Alliance US, based in

3507
03:23:36,680 --> 03:23:42,160
Speaker 1: the Nazi organization seven. He was also convicted. He was

3508
03:23:42,160 --> 03:23:44,240
Speaker 1: also convicted of hate crimes at the time for violence

3509
03:23:44,240 --> 03:23:47,200
Speaker 1: Stands People of Color UM. Following these revelations, Walker was

3510
03:23:47,240 --> 03:23:50,560
Speaker 1: expelled from the PPC and Bernard claimed that he'd slipped

3511
03:23:50,560 --> 03:23:53,080
Speaker 1: through the party's betting process. However, was also revealed that

3512
03:23:53,240 --> 03:23:57,760
Speaker 1: Bernar follows him on Twitter. UM. Others who signed up

3513
03:23:57,800 --> 03:23:59,560
Speaker 1: for the for the PPC to be an official party

3514
03:23:59,600 --> 03:24:03,480
Speaker 1: include Janice Bulch, a founding member of the Patriotic Europeans

3515
03:24:03,800 --> 03:24:09,080
Speaker 1: against the Islamification of Accent, and also Justin L. Smith,

3516
03:24:09,240 --> 03:24:12,000
Speaker 1: leader of this of the Sudbury chapter of the Soldiers

3517
03:24:12,040 --> 03:24:14,880
Speaker 1: of Odin. So a whole bunch of whole bunch of

3518
03:24:14,920 --> 03:24:17,760
Speaker 1: fascist people are working work working for the party. Um

3519
03:24:18,080 --> 03:24:20,720
Speaker 1: And unsurprisingly a number of a number of candidates have

3520
03:24:20,840 --> 03:24:23,040
Speaker 1: made headlines. But there as there you know, social media

3521
03:24:23,120 --> 03:24:27,679
Speaker 1: posts from the past and present have surfaced featuring like racism, Islamophobia,

3522
03:24:28,120 --> 03:24:30,880
Speaker 1: and a lot of spreading of far right conspiracy theories.

3523
03:24:31,000 --> 03:24:32,959
Speaker 1: You know that was just kind of common. There's too many,

3524
03:24:33,040 --> 03:24:36,480
Speaker 1: honestly to mention. UM. And it's it's not just that

3525
03:24:36,560 --> 03:24:38,400
Speaker 1: the PPC has a few bad apples in it. It's

3526
03:24:38,440 --> 03:24:40,400
Speaker 1: like the whole the whole party is rife with these

3527
03:24:40,480 --> 03:24:43,400
Speaker 1: kind of one of these kind of sentiments. UM. One

3528
03:24:43,520 --> 03:24:45,680
Speaker 1: gauge of this and the sign and a sign that

3529
03:24:45,800 --> 03:24:48,400
Speaker 1: like this is intentional is the as looking at the

3530
03:24:48,440 --> 03:24:50,800
Speaker 1: candidates who have left the party or have been kicked out.

3531
03:24:51,120 --> 03:24:53,720
Speaker 1: When it became clear that there would be no condemnation

3532
03:24:53,800 --> 03:24:56,760
Speaker 1: of the far right from the upper ranks, there was

3533
03:24:56,879 --> 03:25:00,520
Speaker 1: like and justin like twenty ninet alone, there was like

3534
03:25:00,640 --> 03:25:03,760
Speaker 1: three candidates who were who left or were either kicked

3535
03:25:03,760 --> 03:25:07,480
Speaker 1: out um because they you know, had objections to the

3536
03:25:07,600 --> 03:25:10,720
Speaker 1: racism rampant within the party. They were like complaining about, hey,

3537
03:25:10,800 --> 03:25:12,320
Speaker 1: these guys seem kind of racist, and then they were

3538
03:25:12,360 --> 03:25:14,840
Speaker 1: kicked out of the party or or or or they left.

3539
03:25:15,520 --> 03:25:20,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's a not a good problem to have. Um,

3540
03:25:21,640 --> 03:25:25,560
Speaker 1: so in in uh finishing up this this little quote here. Um. Indeed,

3541
03:25:25,640 --> 03:25:29,040
Speaker 1: a cursory, ac cursory look at the Facebook pages of

3542
03:25:29,120 --> 03:25:32,680
Speaker 1: PPC candidates reveals what's been really noteworthy is how selective

3543
03:25:32,760 --> 03:25:36,000
Speaker 1: the news stories about racist tweets or Facebook posts have been.

3544
03:25:36,200 --> 03:25:39,560
Speaker 1: Almost every PPC candidate in Quebec has recently in repeatedly

3545
03:25:39,640 --> 03:25:42,920
Speaker 1: shared articles from climate denialist sources, including many with a

3546
03:25:42,959 --> 03:25:47,480
Speaker 1: conspiratorial bent. A candidate for Pap and You even produced

3547
03:25:47,560 --> 03:25:50,360
Speaker 1: his own YouTube expose revealing how George sorrows it's behind

3548
03:25:50,400 --> 03:25:53,560
Speaker 1: an international and global conspiracy theory to crash economies and

3549
03:25:53,600 --> 03:25:57,400
Speaker 1: make money spending um panic about climate change. Secondary to

3550
03:25:57,440 --> 03:25:59,959
Speaker 1: climate denial, there's a lot of fears around free speed

3551
03:26:00,040 --> 03:26:03,040
Speaker 1: chin mass immigration, which are both recurring themes in the

3552
03:26:03,120 --> 03:26:06,880
Speaker 1: PPC candidates, and roughly one in five have recently shared

3553
03:26:07,080 --> 03:26:10,440
Speaker 1: news articles from what we would deem a national populist

3554
03:26:10,560 --> 03:26:13,640
Speaker 1: or fall right sources, including less manchetz dot com, which

3555
03:26:13,680 --> 03:26:16,160
Speaker 1: is the website of the French language of the French

3556
03:26:16,280 --> 03:26:21,280
Speaker 1: language translator of the christ Church Um Manifesto um, and

3557
03:26:21,520 --> 03:26:23,280
Speaker 1: that that the guy who ends the website is also

3558
03:26:23,360 --> 03:26:26,840
Speaker 1: involved with organizing in the Montreal in the Montreal chapter

3559
03:26:26,959 --> 03:26:30,879
Speaker 1: of the Yellow Bests. Um. Yeah, so he he both

3560
03:26:30,920 --> 03:26:35,440
Speaker 1: translated the manifesto and he's also running the Montreal Yellowest movement.

3561
03:26:35,520 --> 03:26:38,200
Speaker 1: So that's fun. Um, it's not fun, it's bad, um,

3562
03:26:38,600 --> 03:26:44,240
Speaker 1: Andre Pietrie pipe poo wow. And it's so Remember so

3563
03:26:44,840 --> 03:26:47,120
Speaker 1: I didn't learn French in Canada because I was in

3564
03:26:47,200 --> 03:26:49,920
Speaker 1: a weird Christian private school. Otherwise I could be a

3565
03:26:49,959 --> 03:26:55,240
Speaker 1: lot better at this job. But anyway, there's there's a

3566
03:26:55,360 --> 03:26:57,320
Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's just like a far right

3567
03:26:57,360 --> 03:27:02,520
Speaker 1: YouTube channel. But this guy called a studio who a

3568
03:27:02,600 --> 03:27:04,560
Speaker 1: lot of his stuff was shared. Um. And there's a

3569
03:27:04,600 --> 03:27:07,480
Speaker 1: more like eccentric and sporadic mix of of of other

3570
03:27:07,560 --> 03:27:11,039
Speaker 1: news sources, including Unite the Right attendee Faith Goldie who

3571
03:27:11,080 --> 03:27:13,240
Speaker 1: also ran for mayor of Toronto and got third place.

3572
03:27:13,840 --> 03:27:17,720
Speaker 1: UM Quebec based que and on figure Alexus trudell Um

3573
03:27:17,879 --> 03:27:20,760
Speaker 1: and the al right YouTuber black Pigeon Speaks. Of course,

3574
03:27:20,840 --> 03:27:23,800
Speaker 1: the main yellow Vest page was shared a lot, and

3575
03:27:23,920 --> 03:27:27,320
Speaker 1: also sources from the highly racist The Voice of Europe.

3576
03:27:27,440 --> 03:27:30,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot

3577
03:27:31,040 --> 03:27:34,959
Speaker 1: of not not great news sources being being shared by

3578
03:27:35,000 --> 03:27:38,640
Speaker 1: the PBC. UM. So that is the gist of the

3579
03:27:38,680 --> 03:27:43,480
Speaker 1: People's Party as of twenty nine UM. Overall, their performance

3580
03:27:43,520 --> 03:27:47,760
Speaker 1: in the election was kind of a flop. Bernair lost

3581
03:27:47,840 --> 03:27:50,680
Speaker 1: his own seat in Quebec. No PC candidates got into

3582
03:27:50,760 --> 03:27:53,720
Speaker 1: office and the party only managed to get one. Uh.

3583
03:27:53,920 --> 03:27:56,040
Speaker 1: The party only managed to get one point six percent

3584
03:27:56,160 --> 03:28:01,920
Speaker 1: of the total national popular vote, so that's good. It

3585
03:28:02,040 --> 03:28:05,840
Speaker 1: only got one point six percent of all of the

3586
03:28:05,920 --> 03:28:08,800
Speaker 1: votes in Canada. So we're gonna take a break from

3587
03:28:08,840 --> 03:28:11,760
Speaker 1: the People's Party for now and we will circle back

3588
03:28:11,800 --> 03:28:15,840
Speaker 1: towards it um at the end. But after after an

3589
03:28:15,840 --> 03:28:18,000
Speaker 1: ad break, we will we will talk about the what

3590
03:28:18,080 --> 03:28:20,280
Speaker 1: the main Conservative Party was up to during this time

3591
03:28:20,720 --> 03:28:26,160
Speaker 1: and uh a little bit after the election, so yeah, yep,

3592
03:28:26,320 --> 03:28:28,360
Speaker 1: and now the cats just blocking the whole thing. All right,

3593
03:28:29,840 --> 03:28:32,480
Speaker 1: we're back. The cat is in the bathroom. I moved

3594
03:28:32,560 --> 03:28:36,600
Speaker 1: my cats. They were blocking the camera. Hello. Um, people's

3595
03:28:36,640 --> 03:28:38,920
Speaker 1: party not doing great in the first election. That's fun.

3596
03:28:39,400 --> 03:28:41,560
Speaker 1: Let's see what the regular conservatives are up to. I'm

3597
03:28:41,600 --> 03:28:43,720
Speaker 1: sure it was things that are just good and cool.

3598
03:28:44,600 --> 03:28:49,280
Speaker 1: If I know anything about conservatives, it's that they're not

3599
03:28:51,120 --> 03:28:55,520
Speaker 1: not hashtag problematic. Yeah, you just let's just go okay,

3600
03:28:56,480 --> 03:28:58,680
Speaker 1: So I'll just be sad over here, and the audience

3601
03:28:58,720 --> 03:29:00,720
Speaker 1: can know that I'm sad the whole time you're talking.

3602
03:29:01,040 --> 03:29:03,520
Speaker 1: I would rather as episode not such a not such

3603
03:29:03,560 --> 03:29:05,320
Speaker 1: a downer, but it's it's hard to make it. The

3604
03:29:05,440 --> 03:29:08,080
Speaker 1: is kind of an upper I'll make a bargain with

3605
03:29:08,200 --> 03:29:10,520
Speaker 1: the audience that if they listen, I will I will

3606
03:29:10,560 --> 03:29:13,400
Speaker 1: do my French accent at least one more time. We'll

3607
03:29:13,440 --> 03:29:15,840
Speaker 1: see doing the French accent. This is the happiest I

3608
03:29:15,920 --> 03:29:20,560
Speaker 1: have seen Robert all day. Well, he does look very tired.

3609
03:29:21,040 --> 03:29:23,960
Speaker 1: You didn't say earlier, Garrison, and this was very funny

3610
03:29:24,080 --> 03:29:25,840
Speaker 1: that you'd be better at your job if you could

3611
03:29:25,840 --> 03:29:30,080
Speaker 1: speak French. But given what we are here, it cools

3612
03:29:30,120 --> 03:29:34,960
Speaker 1: ow mediate you would actually be much worse at your job. Um,

3613
03:29:35,360 --> 03:29:38,480
Speaker 1: and in fact, if you if you were to speak French,

3614
03:29:38,680 --> 03:29:41,600
Speaker 1: I would I would fire you immediate. It's actually requirement.

3615
03:29:42,040 --> 03:29:47,480
Speaker 1: You can't pronounce things to certainly not French. There's other

3616
03:29:47,560 --> 03:29:50,320
Speaker 1: languages you're allowed to know how to pronounce, but not French.

3617
03:29:50,600 --> 03:29:59,600
Speaker 1: No oblo francaie. So let's pick up right after Maxine

3618
03:29:59,640 --> 03:30:05,000
Speaker 1: Bernard lost the Conservative leadership to Andrew Sheer in um.

3619
03:30:05,360 --> 03:30:08,520
Speaker 1: Sheer won the leadership on a on on like a

3620
03:30:08,600 --> 03:30:12,879
Speaker 1: platform of classical financial conservatism and a slightly more socially

3621
03:30:12,959 --> 03:30:16,640
Speaker 1: moderate platform um. When Sheer got into office, though, one

3622
03:30:16,640 --> 03:30:18,680
Speaker 1: of the things he faced criticism for, even among the

3623
03:30:18,720 --> 03:30:22,840
Speaker 1: Conservative caucus was his association with a little media with

3624
03:30:23,080 --> 03:30:26,800
Speaker 1: was his association with a little media outlet called rebel Media.

3625
03:30:28,480 --> 03:30:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah so most most listeners may not know what rebel

3626
03:30:33,840 --> 03:30:36,760
Speaker 1: media is, but you've certainly seen their stuff or felt

3627
03:30:36,800 --> 03:30:39,879
Speaker 1: their effect. Yeah, it's like the rough draft of bright

3628
03:30:40,000 --> 03:30:45,240
Speaker 1: bart and also Canadian and Canadian, Yes so Canadian. Uh so,

3629
03:30:45,959 --> 03:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Rebel Media is a Canadian far right neo fascist propaganda

3630
03:30:48,920 --> 03:30:52,280
Speaker 1: Outlet's start that has a lot of a lot of

3631
03:30:52,480 --> 03:30:59,360
Speaker 1: bright Barti vibes um rebel media. Yeah, bright Bartesque, rebel media,

3632
03:30:59,440 --> 03:31:02,520
Speaker 1: host thinking tribute years have included a white nationalist and

3633
03:31:02,600 --> 03:31:06,080
Speaker 1: white genocide proponent, Laurence Southern UM and Proud Boy founder

3634
03:31:06,120 --> 03:31:11,360
Speaker 1: Gavin McGinness um. McGinnis produced a quote satirical video for

3635
03:31:11,480 --> 03:31:19,120
Speaker 1: Rebel called ten Things I Hate about the Jews. Yeah so,

3636
03:31:19,560 --> 03:31:22,080
Speaker 1: and it's and it is worth noting that both Southern

3637
03:31:22,240 --> 03:31:26,200
Speaker 1: and McGinnis are Canadian. Um, They're actually a lot of

3638
03:31:26,760 --> 03:31:29,200
Speaker 1: alt figures that are Canadian. Of course we have we

3639
03:31:29,240 --> 03:31:32,760
Speaker 1: have Lauren Southern, Gavin McGinnis, Um, we have Stephen Crowder,

3640
03:31:33,200 --> 03:31:36,160
Speaker 1: uh Stefan malin you and of course Jordan Peterson. All

3641
03:31:36,240 --> 03:31:38,520
Speaker 1: of those people are are Canadian and most of them,

3642
03:31:40,160 --> 03:31:44,200
Speaker 1: most of them still live in Canada. Yes, he's still alive.

3643
03:31:44,600 --> 03:31:49,320
Speaker 1: Made he made insane tweet the other day. God, he

3644
03:31:49,440 --> 03:31:54,000
Speaker 1: made the most tweet. That tweet made it all worthwhile. Baby,

3645
03:31:54,680 --> 03:31:57,040
Speaker 1: he got everyone to go check his Twitter feed. It

3646
03:31:57,160 --> 03:32:00,600
Speaker 1: is amazing. You can you can hear his brain shorting

3647
03:32:00,640 --> 03:32:05,720
Speaker 1: out when you read that tweet, Like you need to

3648
03:32:05,760 --> 03:32:07,960
Speaker 1: find the tweet it is. It is just it is

3649
03:32:08,080 --> 03:32:10,920
Speaker 1: the most beautiful piece of poetry of ever. It's like

3650
03:32:11,080 --> 03:32:17,480
Speaker 1: somebody taught a stroke out of type. It makes no sense. God,

3651
03:32:17,520 --> 03:32:21,480
Speaker 1: it's so good. Um, I'm going to quote an article

3652
03:32:21,640 --> 03:32:24,720
Speaker 1: by a Global news dot c a on Andrew Sheer

3653
03:32:24,800 --> 03:32:28,080
Speaker 1: and Rebel media. Quote. Despite a string of controversies faced

3654
03:32:28,120 --> 03:32:30,879
Speaker 1: by Canadian right wing media outlet of The Rebel, including

3655
03:32:30,920 --> 03:32:34,920
Speaker 1: allegations of downplaying the Holocaust movie minted, Conservative Party leader

3656
03:32:34,959 --> 03:32:37,520
Speaker 1: Andrew Sheer has so far continued to make himself available

3657
03:32:37,560 --> 03:32:41,279
Speaker 1: to the company that other prominent Conservative politicians have criticized

3658
03:32:41,320 --> 03:32:45,840
Speaker 1: for its controversial reporting and activism. Shear's campaign organization also

3659
03:32:45,879 --> 03:32:48,640
Speaker 1: has a direct connection to The Rebel. His campaign manager,

3660
03:32:48,760 --> 03:32:51,440
Speaker 1: Hamish Marshall, is listed as a director of the company's

3661
03:32:51,560 --> 03:32:55,119
Speaker 1: federal incorporation records, which show its most recent annual gathering

3662
03:32:55,160 --> 03:32:58,360
Speaker 1: meeting was in February this year. Following the leadership election

3663
03:32:58,400 --> 03:33:01,359
Speaker 1: in Toronto on Saturday, she granted one on one interviews

3664
03:33:01,360 --> 03:33:03,880
Speaker 1: with a handful of major media organizations, including a face

3665
03:33:03,920 --> 03:33:07,199
Speaker 1: to face interview with The Rebels Ottawa correspondent Brian Lily.

3666
03:33:08,120 --> 03:33:11,039
Speaker 1: Prior to his convention interview, Sheer appeared on The Rebel

3667
03:33:11,080 --> 03:33:13,920
Speaker 1: in February in a studio interview with host Faith Goldie

3668
03:33:14,000 --> 03:33:17,080
Speaker 1: on her show on the Hunt. At the end of

3669
03:33:17,120 --> 03:33:19,920
Speaker 1: the discussion, Goldie asked she Er if if he would

3670
03:33:19,920 --> 03:33:21,520
Speaker 1: agree to go on a duck hunting trip with her

3671
03:33:21,680 --> 03:33:25,320
Speaker 1: after after he wins the leadership on Canada Day, which

3672
03:33:25,400 --> 03:33:29,360
Speaker 1: he agreed to. UM We briefly mentioned faith Goldie earlier

3673
03:33:29,440 --> 03:33:31,760
Speaker 1: in her connection to the People's Party UM and her

3674
03:33:31,840 --> 03:33:35,640
Speaker 1: brief campaign for the Toronto mayor, but here's some more

3675
03:33:35,720 --> 03:33:38,920
Speaker 1: background on her UM and her coverage and her coverage

3676
03:33:38,959 --> 03:33:42,080
Speaker 1: of the Unite the Right rally for Rebel media. Quoting

3677
03:33:42,160 --> 03:33:46,160
Speaker 1: from Winnipeg Free Press, in the course of her dispatches,

3678
03:33:46,440 --> 03:33:49,280
Speaker 1: Goldie argued the events in the Charlottesville were evidence of

3679
03:33:49,320 --> 03:33:52,680
Speaker 1: a rising white racial consciousness that was going to change

3680
03:33:52,720 --> 03:33:55,840
Speaker 1: the political landscape in America. She also wanted to she's

3681
03:33:55,840 --> 03:33:59,320
Speaker 1: actually not wrong there. That was, Yeah, she's not wrong,

3682
03:33:59,760 --> 03:34:02,440
Speaker 1: but I think she's she's on the other side of

3683
03:34:02,520 --> 03:34:04,200
Speaker 1: the ai alat and whether this is a good or

3684
03:34:04,320 --> 03:34:08,240
Speaker 1: bad thing. Yeah. She went to great lengths to laud

3685
03:34:08,360 --> 03:34:12,400
Speaker 1: the twenty point Meta political Manifesto composed by White National's

3686
03:34:12,480 --> 03:34:15,720
Speaker 1: leader Richard Spencer, a document that includes calls to organize

3687
03:34:15,959 --> 03:34:19,840
Speaker 1: U states along ethnic and racial divides and celebrates the

3688
03:34:19,840 --> 03:34:24,200
Speaker 1: superiority of white America. Faith Goldie described Spencer's manifesto as

3689
03:34:24,360 --> 03:34:28,920
Speaker 1: robust and well thought out. Goldie was fired by Rebel

3690
03:34:29,040 --> 03:34:32,360
Speaker 1: in mid August and seventeen, but not due to her

3691
03:34:32,400 --> 03:34:35,640
Speaker 1: participation in Unite the Right. She was fired for appearing

3692
03:34:35,760 --> 03:34:39,039
Speaker 1: on a Daily Stormer podcast to discuss Unite the Right.

3693
03:34:40,560 --> 03:34:44,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that's that's fine. So yeah, fine, nice

3694
03:34:44,480 --> 03:34:49,360
Speaker 1: to have her. Interviewing Conservative leader Andrew Sheer asked for

3695
03:34:49,480 --> 03:34:52,320
Speaker 1: his reaction to Unite the Right and Rebel media um

3696
03:34:52,560 --> 03:34:57,160
Speaker 1: after what happened in Charlotte'sville in Sheer, who had previously

3697
03:34:57,240 --> 03:35:00,200
Speaker 1: been interviewed by Rebel multiple times, finally di of ad

3698
03:35:00,280 --> 03:35:02,680
Speaker 1: the outlets, saying, look, I believe there's a fine line

3699
03:35:02,720 --> 03:35:05,320
Speaker 1: between covering events and giving a platform to groups who

3700
03:35:05,320 --> 03:35:08,080
Speaker 1: are promoting a violent, disgusting point of view. I won't

3701
03:35:08,120 --> 03:35:11,960
Speaker 1: be granting interviews going forward. So that's nice that it

3702
03:35:12,040 --> 03:35:14,280
Speaker 1: took someone dying in Charlotte's Bill to realize that you

3703
03:35:14,320 --> 03:35:18,520
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't talk to the fascist media source. Um. So,

3704
03:35:18,920 --> 03:35:22,000
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Unite the Right, the mainstream conservatives

3705
03:35:22,200 --> 03:35:25,320
Speaker 1: kind of had to tread carefully around social issues because

3706
03:35:25,360 --> 03:35:27,280
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, yeah, they're there's still not seas we

3707
03:35:27,400 --> 03:35:30,400
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be pandering to them. Um. But as more

3708
03:35:30,560 --> 03:35:33,560
Speaker 1: time a distance led the air cool. Some Conservatives went

3709
03:35:33,640 --> 03:35:35,879
Speaker 1: back to the same old rhetoric around the twenty nineteen

3710
03:35:35,920 --> 03:35:40,280
Speaker 1: election um. For instance, in his twenty nineteen election campaign,

3711
03:35:40,760 --> 03:35:44,080
Speaker 1: uh Tom Chemick, of the parliamentary representative of one of

3712
03:35:44,120 --> 03:35:48,080
Speaker 1: the parliamentary representatives for Calgary, Alberta, wrote out and spread

3713
03:35:48,160 --> 03:35:51,360
Speaker 1: flyers with the all claps with the all caps header

3714
03:35:51,480 --> 03:35:55,680
Speaker 1: of crisis at the Border with text reading deer constituent.

3715
03:35:55,840 --> 03:35:58,640
Speaker 1: The Independent Autor General of Canada has published a scathing

3716
03:35:58,680 --> 03:36:01,920
Speaker 1: report confirming that the Ottawa Liberals have failed to safely

3717
03:36:01,959 --> 03:36:05,680
Speaker 1: and responsibly manage Canada's borders since Justin Trudeau you responsibly

3718
03:36:05,720 --> 03:36:08,480
Speaker 1: tweeted out that Canada would open sporers to anyone seeking entry.

3719
03:36:08,720 --> 03:36:11,240
Speaker 1: The number of people illegally crossing the board into Canada

3720
03:36:11,240 --> 03:36:14,080
Speaker 1: from the United States has surged past one thousand a month,

3721
03:36:14,160 --> 03:36:18,680
Speaker 1: with almost twenty people illegally enteringen alone, and while speaking

3722
03:36:18,720 --> 03:36:21,560
Speaker 1: to voters of CONAC repeatedly insisted that all the problems

3723
03:36:21,600 --> 03:36:24,800
Speaker 1: of people illegally crossing the Canadian border isn't a symptom

3724
03:36:24,840 --> 03:36:27,400
Speaker 1: of a failure of systems to respond to a growing crisis,

3725
03:36:27,760 --> 03:36:30,200
Speaker 1: but merely a failure for border patrol. To with to

3726
03:36:30,320 --> 03:36:34,840
Speaker 1: assert control over people. UM. Quotes and flyer courtesy of

3727
03:36:35,200 --> 03:36:38,840
Speaker 1: about This Tom chemic Guy A courtesy of a. Dan

3728
03:36:39,000 --> 03:36:42,720
Speaker 1: Olson of Folding Ideas. He's a great Canadian documentarian who

3729
03:36:42,760 --> 03:36:45,280
Speaker 1: released a magnificent piece on Q and on and conspiracy

3730
03:36:45,320 --> 03:36:49,480
Speaker 1: theories last year on his YouTube channel of Folding Ideas. Overall,

3731
03:36:49,879 --> 03:36:53,200
Speaker 1: I really really like Dan. He makes very good stuff. UM,

3732
03:36:54,000 --> 03:36:56,720
Speaker 1: so thank thank you to him for sending me those

3733
03:36:56,800 --> 03:37:00,520
Speaker 1: those those flyers. UM. Anyway, during the twenty steen election,

3734
03:37:00,760 --> 03:37:03,320
Speaker 1: Sheer led the Conservatives to gain a total of twenty

3735
03:37:03,440 --> 03:37:07,520
Speaker 1: six seats in the party inside Parliament, going from ninety

3736
03:37:07,640 --> 03:37:10,760
Speaker 1: five up to one hundred and twenty one, but they

3737
03:37:10,840 --> 03:37:14,880
Speaker 1: did finish thirty six seats behind the Liberals despite beating

3738
03:37:14,920 --> 03:37:17,680
Speaker 1: the Liberals in the popular vote by one point three percent.

3739
03:37:18,320 --> 03:37:20,400
Speaker 1: So there was a thirty four point four percent for

3740
03:37:20,440 --> 03:37:22,720
Speaker 1: Conservatives and thirty three point one percent of the popular

3741
03:37:22,840 --> 03:37:24,959
Speaker 1: vote for Liberals. The margin was just over like two

3742
03:37:25,040 --> 03:37:28,080
Speaker 1: hundred and forty thousand votes. UM. The Liberals lost twenty

3743
03:37:28,120 --> 03:37:31,279
Speaker 1: seats in the election and the n DP lost fifteen seats,

3744
03:37:31,480 --> 03:37:34,240
Speaker 1: and this was the first time since to UH since

3745
03:37:34,360 --> 03:37:37,320
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine that a party won the most seats

3746
03:37:37,480 --> 03:37:41,200
Speaker 1: without also winning the popular vote. Um. What what pushed

3747
03:37:41,240 --> 03:37:43,920
Speaker 1: the Conservatives over on the popular vote was due to

3748
03:37:44,000 --> 03:37:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, extremely high conservative turnout in uh in in

3749
03:37:47,600 --> 03:37:51,520
Speaker 1: in various in various writings. So basically more Conservatives voted

3750
03:37:51,560 --> 03:37:53,320
Speaker 1: in certain runnings than they usually do, so even if

3751
03:37:53,320 --> 03:37:55,800
Speaker 1: the Liberals still win the district, there was still more

3752
03:37:55,800 --> 03:37:59,959
Speaker 1: Conservative votes to be counted. Um. And also they based

3753
03:38:00,000 --> 03:38:02,840
Speaker 1: really swept the Prairie provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, where

3754
03:38:02,840 --> 03:38:05,640
Speaker 1: they won seventy of the vote in sixties five percent

3755
03:38:05,680 --> 03:38:09,120
Speaker 1: of the vote respectively. But their victories in those states

3756
03:38:09,240 --> 03:38:12,199
Speaker 1: and their higher turnout did not convert into many seats

3757
03:38:12,640 --> 03:38:15,680
Speaker 1: because the less population dense areas have fewer federal writings

3758
03:38:15,760 --> 03:38:19,680
Speaker 1: and fewer available seats um. And the Liberals had to

3759
03:38:19,800 --> 03:38:23,040
Speaker 1: rely heavily for seats in Ontario though, you know, the

3760
03:38:23,160 --> 03:38:26,760
Speaker 1: most populous province that include cities like Toronto, um and

3761
03:38:26,879 --> 03:38:30,160
Speaker 1: you know other a few other big cities. So you know,

3762
03:38:30,480 --> 03:38:33,000
Speaker 1: Canada doesn't have the most democratic system like so the

3763
03:38:33,080 --> 03:38:35,280
Speaker 1: same way you know in the States were familiar with

3764
03:38:35,360 --> 03:38:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, people losing popular votes, um but still getting

3765
03:38:38,400 --> 03:38:40,600
Speaker 1: elected president and stuff. You know, in Canadas, it's it's

3766
03:38:40,680 --> 03:38:42,680
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different because of how you vote

3767
03:38:42,720 --> 03:38:46,120
Speaker 1: for parties in your own little district. Um. But you know,

3768
03:38:46,160 --> 03:38:48,200
Speaker 1: it's still not perfect, right because, like it is, it

3769
03:38:48,440 --> 03:38:51,520
Speaker 1: does feel weird for the leader of the leader of

3770
03:38:51,560 --> 03:38:53,560
Speaker 1: the country to not have his party to not have

3771
03:38:53,640 --> 03:38:55,400
Speaker 1: also won the popular vote because of how you know,

3772
03:38:55,480 --> 03:38:58,279
Speaker 1: districts work out and how higher turnout in some areas

3773
03:38:58,320 --> 03:39:01,120
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's going to have more seats, um.

3774
03:39:01,920 --> 03:39:03,640
Speaker 1: You know. But the other side of things here is

3775
03:39:03,720 --> 03:39:07,320
Speaker 1: that like Canada also doesn't have ranked choice, so like,

3776
03:39:07,720 --> 03:39:10,000
Speaker 1: still the majority of people voted for left of center

3777
03:39:10,040 --> 03:39:12,040
Speaker 1: candidates if you include you know, the Green Party, the

3778
03:39:12,160 --> 03:39:14,959
Speaker 1: n DP, and the Liberals. So even the Liberals lost

3779
03:39:15,000 --> 03:39:17,320
Speaker 1: the popular vote, there's still like a majority left of

3780
03:39:17,400 --> 03:39:20,000
Speaker 1: center voting. So if they if they had ranked choice,

3781
03:39:20,040 --> 03:39:23,360
Speaker 1: maybe the results would have been different. So Canada's system,

3782
03:39:23,800 --> 03:39:26,880
Speaker 1: it definitely is in perfect for how they do elections. UM,

3783
03:39:26,959 --> 03:39:29,560
Speaker 1: I would I would prefer ranked choice, as you know,

3784
03:39:29,879 --> 03:39:32,400
Speaker 1: basically basically I would prefer that for like every country

3785
03:39:32,400 --> 03:39:35,080
Speaker 1: if they're gonna have elections. Um. So yeah, just kind

3786
03:39:35,080 --> 03:39:37,760
Speaker 1: of explaining why they can lose the popular vote, but still,

3787
03:39:37,920 --> 03:39:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, still win a majority controlling government. UM. So

3788
03:39:42,280 --> 03:39:45,080
Speaker 1: after the election, Sheer announced he was resigning as head

3789
03:39:45,120 --> 03:39:47,880
Speaker 1: of the Conservatives in December of twenty nineteen. UH. This

3790
03:39:48,040 --> 03:39:49,800
Speaker 1: was after it was revealed that he had used party

3791
03:39:49,840 --> 03:39:53,879
Speaker 1: funds for his children's own private schooling. So good for him, UM,

3792
03:39:54,760 --> 03:39:57,280
Speaker 1: a new bid for Conservative leadership went into effect. We're

3793
03:39:57,280 --> 03:40:00,800
Speaker 1: gonna mainly focus on two candidates here. There was an

3794
03:40:01,000 --> 03:40:04,880
Speaker 1: erin o'tool and Derek Solan. UM. O'tool fancies himself as

3795
03:40:04,879 --> 03:40:08,080
Speaker 1: another kind of like classic financial conservative and a social moderate.

3796
03:40:08,560 --> 03:40:11,840
Speaker 1: He feels more like the old progressive Conservative candidates from

3797
03:40:11,879 --> 03:40:13,760
Speaker 1: back before the two of US and three Unite the

3798
03:40:13,840 --> 03:40:18,320
Speaker 1: Right merger. Um. We got some like John McCain vibes here, UM,

3799
03:40:18,560 --> 03:40:21,440
Speaker 1: but Derek solan is more similar to the farther right

3800
03:40:21,520 --> 03:40:24,520
Speaker 1: parts of the U s IS current Republican Party, like

3801
03:40:24,560 --> 03:40:30,160
Speaker 1: anti abortion, anti LGBT, racist tweets, etcetera. UM. But as

3802
03:40:30,240 --> 03:40:34,320
Speaker 1: a whole, Solon's extremism was rejected by the Canadian Conservatives.

3803
03:40:34,720 --> 03:40:36,400
Speaker 1: UM he got only he got like only fourth. He

3804
03:40:36,480 --> 03:40:38,920
Speaker 1: got fourth placed with fifteen percent of the vote during

3805
03:40:38,959 --> 03:40:42,280
Speaker 1: the first round of voting. UM and ultimately o'tool one

3806
03:40:42,400 --> 03:40:46,480
Speaker 1: leadership after three rounds of votes, um and o'tool now

3807
03:40:46,640 --> 03:40:49,880
Speaker 1: has the has the new challenge of trying to appeal

3808
03:40:50,240 --> 03:40:53,400
Speaker 1: to the Canadian Conservatives more moderate wing, as well as

3809
03:40:53,480 --> 03:40:56,240
Speaker 1: the more Trumpian wing that's developed the past few years.

3810
03:40:56,879 --> 03:41:00,560
Speaker 1: He's been relatively successful in crafting like a boring, polite

3811
03:41:00,720 --> 03:41:04,480
Speaker 1: Canadian version of Trump's nationalism, with slogans like Canada First

3812
03:41:04,560 --> 03:41:07,920
Speaker 1: and take Canada Back, um, you know, despite supporting trade

3813
03:41:08,000 --> 03:41:12,080
Speaker 1: deals outsourcing Canadian jobs to cheaper overseas markets because they

3814
03:41:12,160 --> 03:41:15,840
Speaker 1: never actually mean what they say, um and the and

3815
03:41:15,959 --> 03:41:18,720
Speaker 1: As the Liberals have grown more aware of Canada's bloody

3816
03:41:18,800 --> 03:41:21,280
Speaker 1: history and have like toned down the red and white

3817
03:41:21,320 --> 03:41:25,040
Speaker 1: maple leaf patriotism, the Conservative Party under o'tool has seized

3818
03:41:25,080 --> 03:41:27,760
Speaker 1: on this opportunity to make Canadian patriotism more of a

3819
03:41:27,920 --> 03:41:30,800
Speaker 1: right leaning staple, just like patriotism is, you know, it's

3820
03:41:30,800 --> 03:41:32,240
Speaker 1: more of like a right wing thing in the States.

3821
03:41:32,879 --> 03:41:36,400
Speaker 1: So basically, after we were like, oh yeah, residental schools

3822
03:41:36,400 --> 03:41:38,840
Speaker 1: were bad, Canada's kind of sucked up, liberals are like, Okay,

3823
03:41:38,920 --> 03:41:41,680
Speaker 1: we maybe shouldn't be so we shouldn't be waving our

3824
03:41:42,040 --> 03:41:44,720
Speaker 1: maple leaf legs everywhere. Maybe we're not a perfect country.

3825
03:41:45,080 --> 03:41:46,920
Speaker 1: The Conservatives like, no, you have to be proud to

3826
03:41:46,959 --> 03:41:49,280
Speaker 1: be Canadian. So they've kind of taken patriotism to be

3827
03:41:49,320 --> 03:41:51,520
Speaker 1: their new thing. Well, previously it was much more of

3828
03:41:51,560 --> 03:41:55,320
Speaker 1: like a liberal thing. The Islamophobia and overt religious bigotry

3829
03:41:55,440 --> 03:41:58,040
Speaker 1: under a tool has been slightly trimmed down UM, and

3830
03:41:58,120 --> 03:42:01,320
Speaker 1: climate change has at least been mentioned as a existing UM.

3831
03:42:01,879 --> 03:42:03,960
Speaker 1: But there has also been increased discussion on trying to

3832
03:42:04,080 --> 03:42:08,640
Speaker 1: hack down Canada's healthcare and privatize more aspects of it, which, yeah,

3833
03:42:08,840 --> 03:42:13,800
Speaker 1: good job, guys, take away the only good part of Canada. UM.

3834
03:42:14,280 --> 03:42:18,000
Speaker 1: Like Uh. The province of Alberta under Jason Kenny has

3835
03:42:18,080 --> 03:42:20,400
Speaker 1: done this to a disastrous effect UM, raising the cost

3836
03:42:20,480 --> 03:42:23,760
Speaker 1: of medical care for lower class people, many of whom

3837
03:42:23,840 --> 03:42:27,120
Speaker 1: voted Conservative. UM. I have family in Alberta, and just

3838
03:42:27,240 --> 03:42:29,120
Speaker 1: the past five years the changes to the healthcare system

3839
03:42:29,160 --> 03:42:32,280
Speaker 1: there has been horrible. UM, it's not it's not great.

3840
03:42:33,000 --> 03:42:35,680
Speaker 1: So basically, what what what o'tool wants is he he

3841
03:42:35,840 --> 03:42:38,320
Speaker 1: wants he wants to ba just privatize more elements of it.

3842
03:42:38,400 --> 03:42:40,240
Speaker 1: He has a specific term he uses like he wants

3843
03:42:40,320 --> 03:42:42,840
Speaker 1: like a he wants to like split the fed like

3844
03:42:42,959 --> 03:42:45,480
Speaker 1: the like the taxpayer healthcare and privatized health care into

3845
03:42:45,520 --> 03:42:47,200
Speaker 1: two sections, and you can choose which one to join

3846
03:42:47,280 --> 03:42:52,120
Speaker 1: in anyway, it's silly. Um. O'cheval did take a wee

3847
03:42:52,200 --> 03:42:54,959
Speaker 1: little stance to distance himself from the more extreme wings

3848
03:42:55,040 --> 03:42:57,680
Speaker 1: of his party when he decided to remove MP Derek

3849
03:42:57,720 --> 03:43:01,120
Speaker 1: Solan from the caucus. Uh TOO announced that Solan will

3850
03:43:01,120 --> 03:43:02,800
Speaker 1: not be allowed to run as a candidate for the

3851
03:43:03,280 --> 03:43:06,039
Speaker 1: for the Conservative Party in the next election either, saying

3852
03:43:06,440 --> 03:43:08,720
Speaker 1: racism is a disease of the soul, repugnance to our

3853
03:43:08,760 --> 03:43:10,960
Speaker 1: core values. It has no place in our country and

3854
03:43:11,000 --> 03:43:12,960
Speaker 1: has no place in the Conservative Party of Canada. I

3855
03:43:13,080 --> 03:43:16,520
Speaker 1: won't tolerate it. Um. Also last year, O'Toole refused to

3856
03:43:16,560 --> 03:43:21,280
Speaker 1: say whether he thinks systemic racism exists UM. But the

3857
03:43:21,480 --> 03:43:25,240
Speaker 1: decision to remove Soland was made after it was revealed

3858
03:43:25,280 --> 03:43:28,560
Speaker 1: that he accepted a donation from the Canadian Nazi Paul

3859
03:43:28,640 --> 03:43:33,279
Speaker 1: from during uh during Soland's bid for a Conservative leadership

3860
03:43:33,840 --> 03:43:35,880
Speaker 1: back in the nineties of From was a figurehead of

3861
03:43:35,879 --> 03:43:39,080
Speaker 1: the Canadian far right movement, appearing at Heritage Front rallies

3862
03:43:39,480 --> 03:43:42,600
Speaker 1: and also caught on video at a party celebrating Hitler's birthday,

3863
03:43:43,160 --> 03:43:47,720
Speaker 1: which he lost his high school teaching job over well, look,

3864
03:43:48,280 --> 03:43:51,400
Speaker 1: it's just polite to celebrate a guy's birthday, you know,

3865
03:43:51,560 --> 03:43:54,440
Speaker 1: whether or not he's Hitler. Under no circumstances do you

3866
03:43:54,600 --> 03:44:03,880
Speaker 1: got us celebrate this? This is a a hot take. Um. So,

3867
03:44:04,480 --> 03:44:06,000
Speaker 1: there has been a bit of the there has been

3868
03:44:06,040 --> 03:44:08,400
Speaker 1: a bit of a rift in the Conservative Party over

3869
03:44:08,560 --> 03:44:11,520
Speaker 1: how much Trumpian rhetoric should be allowed in the Canadian

3870
03:44:11,560 --> 03:44:14,600
Speaker 1: Conservative Party. UM and this kind of rift has definitely

3871
03:44:14,760 --> 03:44:19,440
Speaker 1: increased after January six. UM. The problem for Conservative politicians

3872
03:44:19,520 --> 03:44:21,440
Speaker 1: is that to win elections they need to appeal to

3873
03:44:21,520 --> 03:44:25,040
Speaker 1: the largest swath of voters um and that includes more

3874
03:44:25,160 --> 03:44:29,120
Speaker 1: socially conservative and increasingly far right rule folks. But if

3875
03:44:29,160 --> 03:44:31,240
Speaker 1: they go too far, they'll lose the moderates to the

3876
03:44:31,320 --> 03:44:33,560
Speaker 1: Liberal Party. So you have it's like this delicate balance.

3877
03:44:33,920 --> 03:44:35,960
Speaker 1: But to kind of give you like an overview of

3878
03:44:36,080 --> 03:44:38,800
Speaker 1: what the current state of the Conservative of Like votership

3879
03:44:38,959 --> 03:44:42,720
Speaker 1: is UM four. Intent of the Conservative Party of Canada members,

3880
03:44:42,800 --> 03:44:44,560
Speaker 1: So you know, people signed up to vote in the party,

3881
03:44:44,840 --> 03:44:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, regular people UM four in ten would say

3882
03:44:48,640 --> 03:44:50,959
Speaker 1: that they would have voted for Trump for intents, say

3883
03:44:51,040 --> 03:44:54,400
Speaker 1: that they think Democrats told the presdential election and for

3884
03:44:54,560 --> 03:44:58,560
Speaker 1: intents say that the Conservative and four intent believe that

3885
03:44:59,120 --> 03:45:02,160
Speaker 1: the January six riot was staged or was done by

3886
03:45:02,200 --> 03:45:05,520
Speaker 1: the Democrats, are done by Antiva. So that's kind of

3887
03:45:05,640 --> 03:45:08,200
Speaker 1: the state of the Conservative Party in Canada for like

3888
03:45:08,760 --> 03:45:11,520
Speaker 1: the for the voters. So you know, politicians have to

3889
03:45:11,680 --> 03:45:13,200
Speaker 1: kind of in order to win, they need they need

3890
03:45:13,240 --> 03:45:15,640
Speaker 1: to still still need to appeal to those people, but

3891
03:45:15,800 --> 03:45:19,200
Speaker 1: they don't want to do that thing usually, like they

3892
03:45:19,280 --> 03:45:23,000
Speaker 1: usually don't like usually there like a big talking point

3893
03:45:23,160 --> 03:45:26,600
Speaker 1: is like rejecting the divisive politics of the of the

3894
03:45:26,760 --> 03:45:28,640
Speaker 1: of the United States. Like that's a big thing people

3895
03:45:28,680 --> 03:45:31,120
Speaker 1: say in Canada. Is that, like they don't want it

3896
03:45:31,160 --> 03:45:33,840
Speaker 1: to become like, you know, like a fighting match because

3897
03:45:33,840 --> 03:45:36,880
Speaker 1: like the other main difference between Canada's elections in America's

3898
03:45:36,879 --> 03:45:39,840
Speaker 1: elections is like America is like always an election season,

3899
03:45:40,080 --> 03:45:42,360
Speaker 1: right like every you know, even after each election, it's

3900
03:45:42,360 --> 03:45:45,039
Speaker 1: like you feel like campaigns start right up again. Um,

3901
03:45:45,440 --> 03:45:48,600
Speaker 1: Canada's campaigns only run like a few months before the election,

3902
03:45:48,840 --> 03:45:52,000
Speaker 1: Like like it is not like those things you guys

3903
03:45:52,080 --> 03:45:54,640
Speaker 1: do objectively better than a lot of the world does.

3904
03:45:54,720 --> 03:45:56,960
Speaker 1: It's not just Canada. The idea that like, oh, elections

3905
03:45:56,959 --> 03:45:59,880
Speaker 1: are terrible. We should spend this little time. It's like

3906
03:46:00,160 --> 03:46:03,440
Speaker 1: it's like like two or three months of campaigning. That's it. Like,

3907
03:46:03,520 --> 03:46:06,440
Speaker 1: it's not it's not like a two year, four year thing. No,

3908
03:46:06,680 --> 03:46:09,000
Speaker 1: that is a thing that we should absolutely the election

3909
03:46:09,040 --> 03:46:11,720
Speaker 1: should be about eleven minutes from from the start of

3910
03:46:11,760 --> 03:46:14,800
Speaker 1: the campaign to the vote. Everybody gets a minute to

3911
03:46:15,000 --> 03:46:18,560
Speaker 1: explain their their politics and then we vote and then

3912
03:46:19,000 --> 03:46:23,280
Speaker 1: we throw them into the sea. Yeah, So trying to

3913
03:46:23,400 --> 03:46:26,000
Speaker 1: trying to craft marketing to the divided right wing. It's

3914
03:46:26,040 --> 03:46:28,600
Speaker 1: been interesting to watch. You know, there's like videos about

3915
03:46:28,600 --> 03:46:31,440
Speaker 1: Tool walking through you know, downtowns with Pride flags in

3916
03:46:31,480 --> 03:46:35,480
Speaker 1: the background and you know, featuring visible like minority Canadians intermingling.

3917
03:46:35,760 --> 03:46:37,560
Speaker 1: But then you also have a tool like raally against

3918
03:46:37,600 --> 03:46:41,560
Speaker 1: cancel culture feeling suggestions that the liberal government's pandemic response

3919
03:46:41,640 --> 03:46:44,640
Speaker 1: is part of a socialist great reset and pulling out

3920
03:46:44,680 --> 03:46:47,560
Speaker 1: the dog whistle on like China and the coronavirus, you know,

3921
03:46:47,680 --> 03:46:50,280
Speaker 1: as often as you can. UM Tools in the past

3922
03:46:50,320 --> 03:46:55,520
Speaker 1: also downplayed Canadians Residential Schools program UM and described the

3923
03:46:55,600 --> 03:46:58,560
Speaker 1: efforts of activists pushing to removal of statues of the

3924
03:46:58,680 --> 03:47:02,240
Speaker 1: of the Residentary of School architect as stupid. Um, so

3925
03:47:02,400 --> 03:47:05,880
Speaker 1: I I do think o'tool prefers a Conservative party resistant

3926
03:47:05,920 --> 03:47:08,040
Speaker 1: too far right branding, but he knows he needs to

3927
03:47:08,040 --> 03:47:10,400
Speaker 1: appeal to its voters in order to win elections. So

3928
03:47:11,600 --> 03:47:14,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's just it's the thing that's not great,

3929
03:47:14,520 --> 03:47:18,480
Speaker 1: but it's interesting to watch. Um. In August one, Justin

3930
03:47:18,560 --> 03:47:22,600
Speaker 1: Trudeau noted black face appreciator called a snap election in

3931
03:47:22,680 --> 03:47:25,200
Speaker 1: an effort to gain more parliamentary seats in hopes of

3932
03:47:25,240 --> 03:47:28,400
Speaker 1: getting a majority Liberal government, something a prime minister should

3933
03:47:28,400 --> 03:47:29,720
Speaker 1: not be allowed to do, by the way, like a

3934
03:47:29,760 --> 03:47:31,640
Speaker 1: priva minister should not be able to decide when to

3935
03:47:31,720 --> 03:47:35,000
Speaker 1: do elections. That is, like should totally not be a thing,

3936
03:47:36,280 --> 03:47:41,000
Speaker 1: Like what, no, you shouldn't do that. But anyway, um.

3937
03:47:41,320 --> 03:47:45,160
Speaker 1: As snap election ramped up, the Conservative Party under a tool,

3938
03:47:45,480 --> 03:47:50,720
Speaker 1: made some extremely questionable choices for their marketings and their slogans. Um,

3939
03:47:51,000 --> 03:47:56,959
Speaker 1: what does the phrase secure the future bring to mind? Anything? Yeah?

3940
03:47:57,440 --> 03:48:00,440
Speaker 1: So that became the new tagline for the entire Servative

3941
03:48:00,520 --> 03:48:05,000
Speaker 1: Party under a tool. Kay, sure, we got, we got,

3942
03:48:05,080 --> 03:48:07,560
Speaker 1: we got, we got Secure the Future, billboards, we got,

3943
03:48:07,760 --> 03:48:10,440
Speaker 1: we got, we got websites Conservative dot c a slash

3944
03:48:10,520 --> 03:48:15,000
Speaker 1: Secure the future. We got mailer's magazine covers all emblazoned

3945
03:48:15,080 --> 03:48:19,120
Speaker 1: with secure the future or secure our future. Um, and

3946
03:48:19,200 --> 03:48:23,480
Speaker 1: you know what will secure our future? Garrison the Chevron

3947
03:48:23,520 --> 03:48:28,879
Speaker 1: ads that keep popping up. We keep securing our future. Yeah. Great,

3948
03:48:29,240 --> 03:48:35,400
Speaker 1: you're welcome. It's a great time. Chevron appreciators for everyone. Ah,

3949
03:48:35,760 --> 03:48:40,800
Speaker 1: we're back and just appreciating Chevron, just like Justin Trudeau.

3950
03:48:40,800 --> 03:48:46,560
Speaker 1: Appreciate Justin Trudeau. Yeah, so secure the future great slogan,

3951
03:48:46,720 --> 03:48:49,039
Speaker 1: not a good slogan. Bad um. I'm going to read

3952
03:48:49,080 --> 03:48:51,840
Speaker 1: a bit from a mailer that went out to Conservative

3953
03:48:51,840 --> 03:48:55,600
Speaker 1: Party members after a tool one leadership quote. I firmly

3954
03:48:55,640 --> 03:48:58,240
Speaker 1: believe Canada has everything. It has everything it takes to

3955
03:48:58,280 --> 03:49:01,520
Speaker 1: recover from COVID nineteen and enjoy prosperous future if we

3956
03:49:01,640 --> 03:49:03,960
Speaker 1: have a government that knows how to secure the future.

3957
03:49:04,440 --> 03:49:07,560
Speaker 1: If the truth, if the Trudeau Liberals stay in power,

3958
03:49:07,600 --> 03:49:11,160
Speaker 1: they'll continue spending taxpayer money at pandemic era levels long before,

3959
03:49:11,320 --> 03:49:14,240
Speaker 1: long after the virus is behind us. The result, all

3960
03:49:14,320 --> 03:49:16,720
Speaker 1: the things we love about Canada will be in serious jeopardy.

3961
03:49:16,880 --> 03:49:18,920
Speaker 1: Our debt will become out of control, and they'll never

3962
03:49:18,960 --> 03:49:20,600
Speaker 1: be able to get back the Canada. You and I

3963
03:49:20,760 --> 03:49:23,120
Speaker 1: grew up in the kind of Canada our children and

3964
03:49:23,240 --> 03:49:27,240
Speaker 1: grandchildren deserve. So later on in the page, oh tool

3965
03:49:27,240 --> 03:49:29,360
Speaker 1: says we need to stand up to the Chinese Communist

3966
03:49:29,400 --> 03:49:32,400
Speaker 1: Party and hold Beijing accountable for sabotaging our economy and

3967
03:49:32,480 --> 03:49:36,680
Speaker 1: taking jobs from Canadian workers. Um And. On August sixteen,

3968
03:49:36,920 --> 03:49:41,000
Speaker 1: the Canadian Conservative Party twitter account tweeted out and I quote,

3969
03:49:41,920 --> 03:49:45,720
Speaker 1: Canada's recovery program will secure the future for you, your children,

3970
03:49:45,880 --> 03:49:50,960
Speaker 1: and your grand and your grandchildren. So that's fun. Also, also,

3971
03:49:51,120 --> 03:49:53,160
Speaker 1: guess how guess guess how many words is in that

3972
03:49:53,280 --> 03:49:58,360
Speaker 1: last sentence? Yeah, yeah, we're going back to calling Canada

3973
03:49:58,480 --> 03:50:02,240
Speaker 1: Calanada again. That's it's like a dog whistle, but except

3974
03:50:02,280 --> 03:50:04,400
Speaker 1: for you know, a dog whistle, only dogs can hear it,

3975
03:50:04,720 --> 03:50:08,200
Speaker 1: except everyone. It's just a whistle. It's just it's just

3976
03:50:08,240 --> 03:50:11,440
Speaker 1: a regular whistle. Yeah, it's it's it's that he just

3977
03:50:11,560 --> 03:50:16,920
Speaker 1: tweeted it tweet Yeah. So as anyway, um as O'Toole

3978
03:50:17,000 --> 03:50:19,840
Speaker 1: was getting all secure the future piled um. Canada's actual

3979
03:50:20,080 --> 03:50:23,480
Speaker 1: far right populist party, the People's Party, was gaining much

3980
03:50:23,600 --> 03:50:27,520
Speaker 1: more popularity amid the pandemic and the anti mask, anti lockdown,

3981
03:50:27,600 --> 03:50:31,680
Speaker 1: anti VAXX protests. The COVID nineteen pandemic was a gift

3982
03:50:31,760 --> 03:50:33,600
Speaker 1: to the far right in general, as it allowed the

3983
03:50:33,640 --> 03:50:36,880
Speaker 1: injection and proliferation of conspiracy theories to accelerate at levels

3984
03:50:36,920 --> 03:50:40,160
Speaker 1: almost never before seen and provided fair recruiting ground to

3985
03:50:40,240 --> 03:50:43,240
Speaker 1: gain new followers. The PPC latched onto this and was

3986
03:50:43,280 --> 03:50:45,960
Speaker 1: extremely successful. They were you know, they sponsored protests, They

3987
03:50:46,000 --> 03:50:47,680
Speaker 1: did a whole bunch of campaigns that are around like

3988
03:50:47,720 --> 03:50:51,400
Speaker 1: anti mask stuff, anti vaccine, you know, all all of it. Um.

3989
03:50:51,840 --> 03:50:53,840
Speaker 1: So the PPC was able to be not just a

3990
03:50:53,880 --> 03:50:56,880
Speaker 1: safe harper for anti immigration, white nationalists and neo Nazis

3991
03:50:56,880 --> 03:50:59,600
Speaker 1: and other far right groups, but also now more mainstream

3992
03:50:59,640 --> 03:51:02,720
Speaker 1: anti lockdown, anti vaccine, anti government protesters as well as

3993
03:51:02,760 --> 03:51:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, gun rights activists and some general rule workers

3994
03:51:06,080 --> 03:51:09,040
Speaker 1: feeling left behind from even the Conservative Party. So the

3995
03:51:09,120 --> 03:51:12,240
Speaker 1: PPC has changed from a niche right nationalist party to

3996
03:51:12,320 --> 03:51:16,120
Speaker 1: a full blown far right populist force. What Bernar in

3997
03:51:16,200 --> 03:51:18,040
Speaker 1: the and the PPC have done so effectively since the

3998
03:51:18,080 --> 03:51:20,480
Speaker 1: pandemic is to use the broad concerns around COVID and

3999
03:51:20,640 --> 03:51:24,480
Speaker 1: freedom and the more you know, mainstream concerns about economic anxieties,

4000
03:51:24,600 --> 03:51:28,000
Speaker 1: job loss, lots of businesses, immigration and changing culture and

4001
03:51:28,040 --> 03:51:30,120
Speaker 1: managed and managed to rule all of these things up

4002
03:51:30,120 --> 03:51:32,960
Speaker 1: into one tight package, which is really appealing to a

4003
03:51:33,000 --> 03:51:35,360
Speaker 1: lot of Canadians who are very anxious about the state

4004
03:51:35,400 --> 03:51:39,800
Speaker 1: of their country, especially amid the COVID nineteen pandemic. So

4005
03:51:40,360 --> 03:51:42,720
Speaker 1: the results of the September snap election, which was you

4006
03:51:42,760 --> 03:51:45,400
Speaker 1: know last month, we're basically the same as the twenty

4007
03:51:45,760 --> 03:51:49,160
Speaker 1: election UM, except the PPC went from one point six

4008
03:51:49,200 --> 03:51:51,000
Speaker 1: percent of the vote to five percent of the vote,

4009
03:51:51,080 --> 03:51:54,240
Speaker 1: A big, big change, uh. They That means they were

4010
03:51:54,280 --> 03:51:58,000
Speaker 1: ranking above the Green Party and nearly tying the block

4011
03:51:58,160 --> 03:52:02,320
Speaker 1: kebu Qua, So they made I know, like one of

4012
03:52:02,320 --> 03:52:04,720
Speaker 1: five percent doesn't seem like tons, but like this is

4013
03:52:04,760 --> 03:52:07,840
Speaker 1: a really big jump for a brand new party UM,

4014
03:52:08,320 --> 03:52:10,640
Speaker 1: especially especially if they're ahead of the Green Party and

4015
03:52:10,800 --> 03:52:15,280
Speaker 1: tying the Block Party. That is like a notable shift UM.

4016
03:52:15,560 --> 03:52:19,320
Speaker 1: The University of Ghulaf Professor of of Political Science Tamra

4017
03:52:19,440 --> 03:52:21,960
Speaker 1: Small said that said this after the results of the

4018
03:52:22,040 --> 03:52:24,680
Speaker 1: last snap election. Quote, I think the only leader who's

4019
03:52:24,680 --> 03:52:27,120
Speaker 1: a static about last night's results is Bernair. I don't

4020
03:52:27,160 --> 03:52:29,320
Speaker 1: think they're going anywhere. I think it seems that he's

4021
03:52:29,360 --> 03:52:32,040
Speaker 1: taken the populism and attached to far right politics, the

4022
03:52:32,160 --> 03:52:34,240
Speaker 1: idea that Canada was immune to this sort of far

4023
03:52:34,360 --> 03:52:36,320
Speaker 1: right populism, the idea that Canada was going to be

4024
03:52:36,680 --> 03:52:38,920
Speaker 1: free from the populism that we saw in Europe, like

4025
03:52:39,120 --> 03:52:41,840
Speaker 1: what Nigel Farage is in the UK. But I think

4026
03:52:41,960 --> 03:52:43,920
Speaker 1: lots of people are wondering if Bernara is just gonna

4027
03:52:43,920 --> 03:52:46,000
Speaker 1: say I'm not here to form an actual government, I'm

4028
03:52:46,040 --> 03:52:48,320
Speaker 1: just here to challenge the system and use that as

4029
03:52:48,360 --> 03:52:52,720
Speaker 1: a way of gaining massive support. Um. After a CTV

4030
03:52:52,880 --> 03:52:56,920
Speaker 1: news emailed the PPC for comment for their post election story, uh,

4031
03:52:57,000 --> 03:53:00,520
Speaker 1: the party spokesperson sent back a one line email response,

4032
03:53:01,080 --> 03:53:04,640
Speaker 1: I don't respond to requests from leftists. Activists masquerading as

4033
03:53:04,760 --> 03:53:09,040
Speaker 1: journalists get lost, so that's fun. Also in late September,

4034
03:53:09,320 --> 03:53:12,960
Speaker 1: Bernard's Twitter account was temporarily suspended for encouraging his supporters

4035
03:53:13,000 --> 03:53:18,280
Speaker 1: to attack journalists. Yeah just not like I'm okay with

4036
03:53:18,320 --> 03:53:21,080
Speaker 1: criticizing journalists stuff, because most journalists are like not great.

4037
03:53:21,200 --> 03:53:24,160
Speaker 1: But when you're using your political Twitter account to just

4038
03:53:24,240 --> 03:53:27,400
Speaker 1: like tell people to just go attack the press, usually

4039
03:53:27,440 --> 03:53:29,520
Speaker 1: it's a bad sign of of like a political party.

4040
03:53:30,280 --> 03:53:32,520
Speaker 1: Usually it's just like, yeah, political parties when they do

4041
03:53:32,600 --> 03:53:35,600
Speaker 1: that usually leads to bad things. UM, we are going

4042
03:53:35,640 --> 03:53:38,440
Speaker 1: to talk about one kind of wrapping up here. We're

4043
03:53:38,560 --> 03:53:42,280
Speaker 1: talking about one Ontario People's Party candidate named Mario Greco,

4044
03:53:42,720 --> 03:53:46,160
Speaker 1: who was a another another high school teacher UM and

4045
03:53:46,240 --> 03:53:50,680
Speaker 1: self proclaimed game developer UM of A few years ago,

4046
03:53:50,840 --> 03:53:53,520
Speaker 1: I I see Chriss Vincent because like you know, this

4047
03:53:53,640 --> 03:53:57,120
Speaker 1: can't lead to good things the gamers, it can't be good.

4048
03:53:57,560 --> 03:54:00,720
Speaker 1: So a few years ago, Greco made a video game

4049
03:54:00,880 --> 03:54:06,080
Speaker 1: called Happy Culture Shootout UM. Quoting an article from Press

4050
03:54:06,120 --> 03:54:09,080
Speaker 1: Progress dot c A Happy Culture Shootout is a Space

4051
03:54:09,080 --> 03:54:11,720
Speaker 1: Invaders style game that allows players to control spaceship that

4052
03:54:11,760 --> 03:54:15,960
Speaker 1: shoots laser beams at caricatures of various identity groups. Quote

4053
03:54:16,080 --> 03:54:18,040
Speaker 1: this game, it's about an alien order to invade Earth

4054
03:54:18,040 --> 03:54:20,800
Speaker 1: and transport all humans to happy Land, Greco says on

4055
03:54:20,880 --> 03:54:23,400
Speaker 1: his personal website, which includes other games that he authored,

4056
03:54:23,600 --> 03:54:26,400
Speaker 1: like Die mar which is about a young, misunderstood hero

4057
03:54:26,480 --> 03:54:31,480
Speaker 1: who sees to liberate post war Germany. Umo in in

4058
03:54:31,520 --> 03:54:35,280
Speaker 1: asist in a since telated video obtained by Press Progress,

4059
03:54:35,360 --> 03:54:38,360
Speaker 1: The People's Party Canadate delivered a presentation to university students

4060
03:54:38,640 --> 03:54:42,640
Speaker 1: several years ago, offering his postmortem on the game UM.

4061
03:54:42,960 --> 03:54:47,400
Speaker 1: Reco expressed surprise that his students and faculty reacted negatively

4062
03:54:47,480 --> 03:54:49,760
Speaker 1: to the game, with one calling it the most racist

4063
03:54:49,800 --> 03:54:52,240
Speaker 1: game I've ever played. Greco says his game is not

4064
03:54:52,440 --> 03:54:54,560
Speaker 1: racist in the slightest, noting that he made fun of

4065
03:54:54,600 --> 03:54:58,240
Speaker 1: his own Italian heritage. He also claimed that some students

4066
03:54:58,320 --> 03:55:02,920
Speaker 1: thought his gay Pride parade level was hilarious. My friends

4067
03:55:02,960 --> 03:55:05,080
Speaker 1: and I love people of all cultures, and we also

4068
03:55:05,160 --> 03:55:08,280
Speaker 1: love humor of all types that includes harmless racist jokes.

4069
03:55:08,360 --> 03:55:10,960
Speaker 1: Greco said in the video, the game was intended to

4070
03:55:11,000 --> 03:55:13,480
Speaker 1: make a joke about how ridiculous cultural stereotypes are, so

4071
03:55:13,520 --> 03:55:15,040
Speaker 1: we can laugh about it together and move on with

4072
03:55:15,120 --> 03:55:18,600
Speaker 1: our lives. UM. During the presentation, the People's Party candidate

4073
03:55:18,760 --> 03:55:22,360
Speaker 1: offered a interesting side note about the games Israel level.

4074
03:55:23,000 --> 03:55:26,120
Speaker 1: According according to Greco, a faculty member at the university

4075
03:55:26,120 --> 03:55:29,440
Speaker 1: strongly recommended that he removed Jewish stereotypes from the game.

4076
03:55:29,720 --> 03:55:31,920
Speaker 1: He was like, no, get rid of it immediately. Don't

4077
03:55:31,960 --> 03:55:34,960
Speaker 1: have any religious content whatsoever. I know that subject is very,

4078
03:55:35,080 --> 03:55:39,360
Speaker 1: very touchy. So yeah, this is just a game where

4079
03:55:39,360 --> 03:55:42,360
Speaker 1: you race shoot to minority people. UM. Anyway. In twenty

4080
03:55:42,440 --> 03:55:46,240
Speaker 1: six and Greco posted a photo on Facebook of an

4081
03:55:46,280 --> 03:55:48,840
Speaker 1: illustration of Pepe the Frog, which he said was drawn

4082
03:55:48,880 --> 03:55:51,520
Speaker 1: by one of his students in in the white board

4083
03:55:51,600 --> 03:55:55,600
Speaker 1: of his York Region high school. Um Peppe had a

4084
03:55:55,600 --> 03:56:01,560
Speaker 1: little speech bubble that said free Kuekistan Gray yep. So

4085
03:56:02,080 --> 03:56:07,000
Speaker 1: now nazis so. Currently Greco is spending his time tweeting

4086
03:56:07,000 --> 03:56:09,920
Speaker 1: about critical race theory and trying to get into office

4087
03:56:10,000 --> 03:56:12,640
Speaker 1: under the People's Party banner UM. In his Twitter bio,

4088
03:56:12,800 --> 03:56:16,920
Speaker 1: he calls himself an egalitarian, libertarian nationalist, and he still

4089
03:56:16,960 --> 03:56:20,960
Speaker 1: also teaches computer science at Ontario High School. Diferent call

4090
03:56:21,080 --> 03:56:25,840
Speaker 1: themselves fascists. I know it's it's not fun. These people

4091
03:56:25,880 --> 03:56:30,840
Speaker 1: are all all for the worst, most scum. Um. And

4092
03:56:31,120 --> 03:56:34,760
Speaker 1: one one more thing before we sign off. UM. Last month,

4093
03:56:34,960 --> 03:56:38,440
Speaker 1: right before the September election, I was forwarded some pictures

4094
03:56:39,360 --> 03:56:43,360
Speaker 1: of some People's Party of Canada posters and flyers put

4095
03:56:43,440 --> 03:56:46,840
Speaker 1: up linking to their campaign website. That someone came across

4096
03:56:47,040 --> 03:56:50,920
Speaker 1: UM around town, not not Portland's, like somewhere in Canada.

4097
03:56:51,360 --> 03:56:55,360
Speaker 1: UM under the PPC logo there was you know, pictures

4098
03:56:55,400 --> 03:56:58,720
Speaker 1: of people's faces and big black text that said it's

4099
03:56:58,760 --> 03:57:05,520
Speaker 1: okay to be white, right bad. So that's the liberal utopia.

4100
03:57:05,520 --> 03:57:10,000
Speaker 1: Of Canada everybody, um, And basically, like the reason why

4101
03:57:10,000 --> 03:57:11,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to put these episodes together, it's because like

4102
03:57:11,520 --> 03:57:12,840
Speaker 1: we we lots of like, you know, we make a

4103
03:57:12,880 --> 03:57:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of jokes about, you know, escaping to Canada as

4104
03:57:14,880 --> 03:57:16,680
Speaker 1: the States gets too fascist, and I just want to

4105
03:57:16,760 --> 03:57:19,400
Speaker 1: like say, like I'm not saying Canada's getting at the

4106
03:57:19,480 --> 03:57:22,440
Speaker 1: same rate, but Canada is not immune to the same thing.

4107
03:57:22,600 --> 03:57:26,400
Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's it's it's you can't you can't

4108
03:57:26,480 --> 03:57:31,880
Speaker 1: run away from authoritarianism by moving, yeah to a country

4109
03:57:31,960 --> 03:57:34,720
Speaker 1: with no history of authoritarianism, like I don't know Germany,

4110
03:57:35,440 --> 03:57:38,040
Speaker 1: uh huh. Yeah. And I think the everything is important

4111
03:57:38,040 --> 03:57:40,720
Speaker 1: with with Canada particularly is that like Canada is like

4112
03:57:40,960 --> 03:57:43,800
Speaker 1: affected by American political trends. And you see this absolutely

4113
03:57:44,200 --> 03:57:45,840
Speaker 1: like like one of one of the things that I

4114
03:57:45,920 --> 03:57:47,680
Speaker 1: remember looking at when I was when I was looking

4115
03:57:47,720 --> 03:57:50,240
Speaker 1: into sort of if you look at the history of

4116
03:57:50,400 --> 03:57:52,720
Speaker 1: like anti astion riots for example, So there's a huge

4117
03:57:52,760 --> 03:57:54,320
Speaker 1: wave and night No. Seven that goes like it goes

4118
03:57:54,320 --> 03:57:55,680
Speaker 1: all the way up the West coast because a lot

4119
03:57:55,760 --> 03:57:58,680
Speaker 1: of them, and it ends in Toronto, yeah, a lot

4120
03:57:58,760 --> 03:58:00,760
Speaker 1: of you know, yeah, and you see you see that

4121
03:58:00,840 --> 03:58:03,360
Speaker 1: like and you see that like today to where it's like, yeah,

4122
03:58:03,440 --> 03:58:06,960
Speaker 1: the Toronto I think has the highest rate of anti

4123
03:58:07,040 --> 03:58:10,640
Speaker 1: Asian attacks like in North America. That's not pretty impressive

4124
03:58:10,680 --> 03:58:13,680
Speaker 1: considering like the absolute shit show going on in like

4125
03:58:14,160 --> 03:58:16,640
Speaker 1: New York, in LA and Seattle, and it's like, no,

4126
03:58:16,760 --> 03:58:21,080
Speaker 1: Toronto's worse. No, it's it's it's real bad. There's I

4127
03:58:21,480 --> 03:58:23,960
Speaker 1: talk a lot about how the far right is getting

4128
03:58:24,000 --> 03:58:26,000
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot more, a lot stronger of an

4129
03:58:26,040 --> 03:58:28,960
Speaker 1: influence in Alberta, and it is spreading into other eastern

4130
03:58:29,120 --> 03:58:31,720
Speaker 1: eastern provinces, not just inside Quebec. You know, there was

4131
03:58:31,760 --> 03:58:33,960
Speaker 1: the insult attack in Toronto a few years ago that

4132
03:58:34,080 --> 03:58:36,360
Speaker 1: killed like I think like a dozen people. Of course,

4133
03:58:36,400 --> 03:58:39,120
Speaker 1: there was the Quebec mosque shooting. There's been a lot

4134
03:58:39,200 --> 03:58:41,360
Speaker 1: of these kind of things popping off, and you know,

4135
03:58:41,480 --> 03:58:45,040
Speaker 1: there's there's even more starting in like British Columbia as well,

4136
03:58:45,160 --> 03:58:47,680
Speaker 1: which is which has a decent far right kind of

4137
03:58:47,760 --> 03:58:50,560
Speaker 1: influence at least on the eastern side of BC, um

4138
03:58:50,880 --> 03:58:55,200
Speaker 1: away from like Victoria and from Vancouver. UM. So yeah,

4139
03:58:55,240 --> 03:58:56,960
Speaker 1: I just wanted to like place together and be like, hey,

4140
03:58:57,040 --> 03:58:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's worth looking at these countries that

4141
03:58:59,200 --> 03:59:01,960
Speaker 1: we usually view with you know, generally doing better and

4142
03:59:02,080 --> 03:59:04,680
Speaker 1: be like no, like it's the same thing is happening there,

4143
03:59:04,720 --> 03:59:07,320
Speaker 1: and it's all it's all part of the same overarching

4144
03:59:07,480 --> 03:59:10,360
Speaker 1: slide right word that we've seen in both in the

4145
03:59:10,560 --> 03:59:13,240
Speaker 1: UK we were even seeing it now in Germany, we're

4146
03:59:13,280 --> 03:59:15,840
Speaker 1: seeing it, you know, in the obviously the States under Trump,

4147
03:59:16,000 --> 03:59:18,480
Speaker 1: and in Canada, even though the Liberals have won the

4148
03:59:18,560 --> 03:59:22,480
Speaker 1: past few elections, it's still scooting right word. So yeah,

4149
03:59:22,560 --> 03:59:24,640
Speaker 1: I just wanted to put this thing together. If you

4150
03:59:24,680 --> 03:59:26,480
Speaker 1: want to keep up to date on Canadian stuff, you

4151
03:59:26,520 --> 03:59:29,600
Speaker 1: can check out the Canadian Antihit network, which does work

4152
03:59:29,640 --> 03:59:34,280
Speaker 1: tracking extremism in Canada. And yeah, that is uh, that

4153
03:59:34,400 --> 03:59:38,240
Speaker 1: is what I put together. Thanks Garrison. Yeah, you're welcoming

4154
03:59:38,320 --> 03:59:41,960
Speaker 1: from You're welcome. Well, that's the episode that's gonna do

4155
03:59:42,080 --> 03:59:43,920
Speaker 1: it for us here and it could happen here today,

4156
03:59:44,280 --> 03:59:47,360
Speaker 1: come back tomorrow or you know whenever, and we'll talk

4157
03:59:47,400 --> 03:59:51,320
Speaker 1: about another part of the world. Maybe I don't know Portugal.

4158
03:59:51,600 --> 03:59:57,920
Speaker 1: Fuck it, I don't have stuff pulled for partures. No,

4159
03:59:58,240 --> 04:00:01,840
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing now. Follow us on Twitter, on Instagram,

4160
04:00:01,920 --> 04:00:03,440
Speaker 1: and it could happen here. Pod and Cools on media

4161
04:00:03,560 --> 04:00:12,200
Speaker 1: leafive star reviews, whatever, Goodbye, Goodbye Hey. We'll be back

4162
04:00:12,240 --> 04:00:15,400
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

4163
04:00:15,480 --> 04:00:18,360
Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is

4164
04:00:18,400 --> 04:00:21,080
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from

4165
04:00:21,120 --> 04:00:24,000
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

4166
04:00:24,200 --> 04:00:25,920
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

4167
04:00:25,960 --> 04:00:29,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

4168
04:00:29,320 --> 04:00:32,000
Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

4169
04:00:32,040 --> 04:00:35,240
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.