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Speaker 2: All right, welcome in it's our usual Sunday hour. John Middlecoff,
Speaker 2: former NFL scout who just got back from the Combine
Speaker 2: like Thursday night, after spending four or five days there.
Speaker 2: For the volume, we certainly appreciated that I should mention
Speaker 2: right off the top. Chris Mortenson passed away today. He'd
Speaker 2: been battling cancer for some time. He was seventy two
Speaker 2: years old. Mort was one of the more respected you know,
Speaker 2: he was as kind as he was wise, one of
Speaker 2: those kind of guys that I think transcended eras Paul
Speaker 2: Zimmerman Sports Illustrated the first like NFL guy I remember,
Speaker 2: like what you would call like your beat columnist, Peter King.
Speaker 2: Chris Mortenson. He came from the Atlanta Journal Constitution where
Speaker 2: he was breaking stories down there. Just a really nice guy.
Speaker 2: How was he viewed in the league, John, I mean,
Speaker 2: these guys now it's basically about breaking story. Schefter took
Speaker 2: kind of Mortenson's role, and it's like minute to minute
Speaker 2: breaking stories. Chris grew up in a generation without the iPhone.
Speaker 2: It was more about contextualizing stories and breaking stories. How
Speaker 2: was he viewed her on the league?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people loved him. I mean I saw
Speaker 1: Peyton Manning, who obviously was very close with him in
Speaker 1: the Manning family in general. You know, when I think
Speaker 1: about football, like like you said, I mean growing up
Speaker 1: in the nineties, Chris Mortenson, Peter King, I mean those
Speaker 1: guys really, you know, from outside of people broadcasting games
Speaker 1: like a John Madden played an integral role, integral role
Speaker 1: and all of us that love football. I mean the
Speaker 1: access that they had, it's so I mean you can
Speaker 1: find out everything now on social media and all these
Speaker 1: articles or all these blogs. They had something that not
Speaker 1: many people had, and that was information. So I think
Speaker 1: he was a trailblazer that way for sure. Uh and
Speaker 1: just an awful day obviously had been sick for a while, sucks.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's I think he's one of the key
Speaker 1: figures in terms of like NFL reporting NFL just stories
Speaker 1: and someone that you had to go to for information
Speaker 1: before inform when information was really really hard to get
Speaker 1: and it was much more difficult to communicate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, you know, he was one of the
Speaker 2: first guys that was a beacon right at a major network.
Speaker 2: I mean remember sports departments at the network level were
Speaker 2: just abcnbccbs. You didn't get daily stuff. They were basically
Speaker 2: on for the weekends. And then guys like mort who
Speaker 2: were on this this this initially tiny cable outfit that
Speaker 2: could give you hour by hour, day by day report.
Speaker 2: It made kind of rock stars out of all of them.
Speaker 2: And mort oas helett and check in terms of gratitude,
Speaker 2: very very gracious, you know, rest in peace to Chris
Speaker 2: Mortens and one of the old time greats.
Speaker 1: You were. You know.
Speaker 2: The combine. I think it's kind of interesting is that
Speaker 2: everybody likes Kirk Cousins everybody. And somebody the other day
Speaker 2: said this, They said, you know, everybody talks about Russell
Speaker 2: Wilson and Justin Fields and Baker Mayfield. And this person said,
Speaker 2: you know, he's got like a career ninety nine passer
Speaker 2: rating and completed sixty nine percent of his throws last year,
Speaker 2: And I mean is a proven high accuracy, high values,
Speaker 2: win a bunch of game quarterback. When you were at
Speaker 2: the combine a lot of stuff. Guy like me in
Speaker 2: the opinion space, we don't talk about Kirk Cousins because
Speaker 2: he doesn't make news. You know, he's just very quiet.
Speaker 2: But when you're at the combine, how is that Atlanta
Speaker 2: opening viewed? For instance?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people think
Speaker 1: that Cousins is the biggest domino to fall in terms
Speaker 1: of he's the number one target for the teams that
Speaker 1: are aggressively going to try to get a quarterback here
Speaker 1: in two weeks or whenever the official date is the thirteenth.
Speaker 1: Because Justin Fields is not viewed very highly. He's viewed
Speaker 1: highly on Twitter, not by NFL gms and coaches, right,
Speaker 1: not people that are trying to win nine ten games
Speaker 1: last year. And Russell's a little more fascinating because he's
Speaker 1: a very interesting guy because his money's going to be low.
Speaker 1: But you always talk about this when you're really famous
Speaker 1: coming into a place, it's a little more complicated, right
Speaker 1: with Russell, even though actually number wise he wasn't terrible.
Speaker 1: He resurrected his career based on two years ago. He
Speaker 1: was terrible. Cousins before he tore that Achilles remember that
Speaker 1: money and I came against the forty nine ers. He
Speaker 1: looked at Peyton Manning he had really kind.
Speaker 2: Of oh and the year before he had a game
Speaker 2: at Buffalo against Josh Allen and outdueled him. He has
Speaker 2: He's got a list of six or seven games against Mahomes,
Speaker 2: Josh Allen, the Niners where he has been the best
Speaker 2: player on the field.
Speaker 1: I think he mastered his talent right. He knows exactly
Speaker 1: what he is and his mind. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of quarterbacks talk about this right that they get as
Speaker 1: they get older. They realize the game becomes easier than
Speaker 1: the problem is their physical skills diminish. Right. Tom's like,
Speaker 1: I've never been smarter a football. I just don't want
Speaker 1: to get hit anymore. Peyton Manning's arm was shot, Drew
Speaker 1: Brees's arm was shot. Cousins did get injured, though, and
Speaker 1: a pretty major injury. I was with his agent one night,
Speaker 1: who I've known for a long time, obviously loves him.
Speaker 1: I mean they've made a lot of money together. He
Speaker 1: got a special contraption that like a lot of I'm
Speaker 1: sure facilities have and like hospitals have when it comes
Speaker 1: to rehabbing the achilles, because that's so much money. He
Speaker 1: just bought it for his house. You know, this is
Speaker 1: the guy that takes this stuff very, very seriously, and
Speaker 1: I guess that's gone really well. He's like, we've put
Speaker 1: out videos of him moving around. They're not bounding their
Speaker 1: chest like Aaron Rodgers, like this is going to be
Speaker 1: a three month but they think all things can considered
Speaker 1: with the injury. Here's the other thing, Colin. His game
Speaker 1: isn't predicated on running around, right, Like when a corner
Speaker 1: or a wide receiver tears an achilles, you go even Rogers,
Speaker 1: like a big part of Rogers' game is the movement.
Speaker 1: Cousins is Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Philip River. He has
Speaker 1: a move so when you look at it, you go, well,
Speaker 1: if he's healthy, it's not like you have to worry. Well,
Speaker 1: he's not as fast we never ran to begin with.
Speaker 1: So you're getting a guy, I think Atlanta. I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of signs are pointing to that. Now. He's
Speaker 1: not cheap, right, and he's proven like that. From a
Speaker 1: business standpoint, they have been very like they don't take discounts,
Speaker 1: so you're not getting the guy for two years sixty
Speaker 1: million dollars would you be willing to give him, you know,
Speaker 1: seventy eighty ninety million dollars guaranteed for sure. You know
Speaker 1: it's a three four year contract. But if he's healthy,
Speaker 1: I mean, Atlanta could all of a sudden be an intriguing,
Speaker 1: you know, playoff level contender. I mean, hell, they were
Speaker 1: kind of right there this year for a long periods
Speaker 1: during the season, but their quarterback played like me or you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's interesting in this league. There's there's
Speaker 2: sort of three levels of successful quarterbacks. The stars, you know,
Speaker 2: and we all know who those are, Mahomes, Lamar Josh.
Speaker 1: It's a small handful two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very small, six seven. And then the rising young
Speaker 2: stars people are excited about, you know, c J. Stroud,
Speaker 2: you know, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts, whoever. And then there's
Speaker 2: the guys that you know there'll be no chaos, Jared Goff,
Speaker 2: Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins. I think Goff's the most talented
Speaker 2: of those. But there they don't get the fan base
Speaker 2: necessarily excited, but the minute they land, you start winning
Speaker 2: double digit games. I mean, say what you want about Dak.
Speaker 2: He may he may have a lower ceiling. Dak gets
Speaker 2: you into the playoffs. Dak wins on twelve games three
Speaker 2: years in a row. So I find like Kirk Cousins,
Speaker 2: he's almost you juxta oppose him with justin Fields. He's
Speaker 2: the opposite. There's no flash, no excitement, there's no topics.
Speaker 2: But I just get sixty nine percent completion percentage and
Speaker 2: not a lot of doesn't miss a lot of games,
Speaker 2: doesn't turn it over a lot moves the chains. If
Speaker 2: he doesn't score, he puts your defense in pretty good
Speaker 2: field position. So I think within the league there's a
Speaker 2: great appreciation for guys like Golf and guys like Kirk Cusions.
Speaker 2: I just don't think in the media there is.
Speaker 1: I think one thing, too, is this offense from the
Speaker 1: Shanahan family is so invoke every team's running it. You
Speaker 1: have the league is right. The Atlanta Falcons Raheem Morris,
Speaker 1: brings Zach Robinson. What are they gonna run mcveay Shanahan's offense?
Speaker 1: And I was talking to Jason light about it. They
Speaker 1: just hired Liam Cohen, who used to be with the Rams,
Speaker 1: McVeigh offense. I said, why do you like this offense
Speaker 1: so much? From a scouting perspective? He say, it's very
Speaker 1: quarterback friendly. Now the quarterback still needs to be accurate
Speaker 1: within that quarterback front. The Jets ran the Shanahan offense
Speaker 1: for Zach Wilson. Howd that go? Like, you need to
Speaker 1: be accurate? Well, what is Cousins very very accurate? What
Speaker 1: is justin fields for example, not very accurate? Listen, Cam Newton,
Speaker 1: who is you know the conversation about things he has
Speaker 1: said he wasn't an elite talent, I mean an all
Speaker 1: time talent at that size, that movement, that arm strength.
Speaker 1: His accuracy was horrendous. I mean he was not a
Speaker 1: very He had to overcome it with all that other stuff,
Speaker 1: and he had it unlike probably less than two or
Speaker 1: three guys in the league history. But what happened early thirties.
Speaker 1: If you're not accurate, you can't even function the league
Speaker 1: because you're no longer running around cousins. As long as
Speaker 1: you have the arm right that Peyton and Breeze lost,
Speaker 1: you can function late into your career, right, especially in
Speaker 1: this league where the quarterback this isn't nineteen to eighty
Speaker 1: five in the Chicago Bears in.
Speaker 2: You yeah, you know. The other thing I find fascinating
Speaker 2: with Justin Fields is Lamar Jackson and when seventy six
Speaker 2: percent of his starts and I swear to God, I'm
Speaker 2: constantly defending him. He's just a winning quarterback and I
Speaker 2: think he's more a nimble athletically than Justin Fields. Justin
Speaker 2: Fields is like ten and twenty eight turnovers, bad second
Speaker 2: half quarterback, and he has defenders at every turn. It
Speaker 2: was interesting in Chicago most of this year they defended
Speaker 2: him and then in the final week he faced Jordan
Speaker 2: Love and you just saw this chasm, this gap, and
Speaker 2: then it all went away. You can go back to
Speaker 2: weeks twelve thirteen. There were a lot of Justin Field's
Speaker 2: supporters in Chicago, but I think when he matched up.
Speaker 1: They were playing on some of those wins. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was the level competition was a joke.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I yeah, I think Justin Fields. I think
Speaker 2: in the league, as you pointed out, people are realistic
Speaker 2: about it, but there is a difference between the public
Speaker 2: perception and people in the league. And I think back
Speaker 2: to our initial point, Kirk Cousins well Well represented a
Speaker 2: lot of fans in the league.
Speaker 1: Like, I talked to someone who is around Lamar Jackson,
Speaker 1: who I think has completely changed anyone that had any
Speaker 1: questions about him after this season, really kind of mastered
Speaker 1: his skill set. But what happened in that in the
Speaker 1: playoff game against the Chiefs, he kind of resorted back
Speaker 1: to a couple of years ago. Talked to someone around
Speaker 1: the Ravens. He thought the big issue was is one
Speaker 1: the offensive coordinator had a weird day. He tightened ut.
Speaker 1: But Lamar, when he gets around Patrick, he thought it
Speaker 1: was like playing Tiger Woods. First couple of holes, a
Speaker 1: couple of birdies, you get tight, and that threw them
Speaker 1: off because that guy, he's like, I've been around this
Speaker 1: guy for years now. That guy was not the guy
Speaker 1: that I saw season long, and we felt it. And
Speaker 1: let's let's face it, that's what Patrick, That's what Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan did, That's what Tiger Woods does, That's what Tom
Speaker 1: Brady did. They just make you unravel a little bit.
Speaker 1: And I think that's like I think the Ravens, like,
Speaker 1: I'm not betting against him this year. They're gonna be
Speaker 1: good again, I'm sure, and they just have to avoid
Speaker 1: that or have the moment, which never really happened to
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan in the nineties, like can you ever take
Speaker 1: down that guy and it's on you mentally as much
Speaker 1: as it is physically. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I think that's a real thing. I said in
Speaker 2: the Super Bowl with Patrick Mahomes, I thought Kyle Shanahan
Speaker 2: thought to himself, I want the ball first and third.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you do that if it's any
Speaker 2: other quarterback not named Patrick Mahomes. I think if it's
Speaker 2: like Jalen Hurts, You're like, you give him the ball first,
Speaker 2: we'll react to it. We can stop him. I think
Speaker 2: with Mahomes it changes even Kyle Shanahan's thinking, well, probably
Speaker 2: won't stop them. At least give us the ball third,
Speaker 2: give us another shot to move the rock. So I
Speaker 2: think your point to well taken. It by the way
Speaker 2: I saw you had a tweet. You are critical. I've
Speaker 2: watched The Dynasty all the episodes. So the book is
Speaker 2: obviously by Jeff Benedict. It takes a very favorable you know,
Speaker 2: the criticism of it. It's very much about the crafts.
Speaker 2: So the Aaron Hernandez it was episode six. So the
Speaker 2: first thing about Aaron Hernandez is Ernie Adams said during
Speaker 2: that hey, he was a first round talent and a
Speaker 2: fourth round pick. We knew there were headaches. It is
Speaker 2: remarkable that he never even entered his prime in the
Speaker 2: NFL and averaged sixty catches and six touchdowns. With Gronk
Speaker 2: on the other side.
Speaker 1: He was the second best player on the team behind
Speaker 1: Brady immediately.
Speaker 2: And if you go back to watch some of those videos,
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen, including Travis Kelcey or
Speaker 2: Kellen Winslow, I've never seen a tight end run like that.
Speaker 2: Patrick Chung was a guest on my show and I
Speaker 2: worked at the other place, and I asked him one time,
Speaker 2: who's the toughest guy in the league to defend? He goes,
Speaker 2: not even close. He goes, it's Aaron Hernandez and he
Speaker 2: had Gronk on the team. He goes, no, Aaron. He goes,
Speaker 2: Aaron's faster. You can't. Aaron's just different. He's a wide
Speaker 2: receiver playing tight end, and he's just you know, he's
Speaker 2: twenty five to thirty five pounds bigger than a strong
Speaker 2: wide receiver. But there is you know, I mean, Gronk
Speaker 2: and Belichick want nothing to do with the Aaron Hernandez story,
Speaker 2: and you said it bothered you the portrayal. It was
Speaker 2: a very Bob Craft supportive on Aaron Hernandez.
Speaker 1: I actually think it's very Jonathan Craft too. Who. I
Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear if you've ever been around the
Speaker 1: dynamics of an older business owner and maybe his right
Speaker 1: hand employee that he's leaned on to make a lot
Speaker 1: of money, their dynamic is always unique. Well in any
Speaker 1: family business, that child underneath the dad, that person that's
Speaker 1: made the dad all the money, does not view the
Speaker 1: child like the dad. Right. And Jonathan Craft in that episode,
Speaker 1: Brady didn't say was never interviewed for it. He won't
Speaker 1: touch it, has never right, has not touched it since
Speaker 1: it happened. Gronk was not interviewed in that. Belichick, I'll
Speaker 1: give him credit, was willing to sit there in front
Speaker 1: of the camera. He didn't really take it. Robert Craft
Speaker 1: kind of went back and forth it. I loved him
Speaker 1: like a child the moment the murder happened. Robert's like
Speaker 1: I was going to get him a defense attorney. Jonathan Craft, who,
Speaker 1: let's face it, is trying to shape the organization. Father's
Speaker 1: over eighty. Belichick's now gone. He's viewing himself like, this
Speaker 1: is my Clark Hunt time, this is my John Maher time,
Speaker 1: This is my time, said I was telling everybody get
Speaker 1: rid of them, right and no, it's like, give me
Speaker 1: a break. Even if you like Belichick doesn't want to
Speaker 1: murder around his team, your dad doesn't either. I just
Speaker 1: think Jonathan Craft is really utilizing this documentary like I
Speaker 1: think Robert is pretty genuine whatever he says he said
Speaker 1: before in the past, This is more shaping it for
Speaker 1: This is Jonathan Craft's team and it's gonna be I
Speaker 1: hope his dad doesn't pass away for a while, but
Speaker 1: he's getting up there in age like this is He's
Speaker 1: gonna play a very, very prominent role for this squad.
Speaker 1: And I can imagine it's been reported on a little bit.
Speaker 1: Doesn't like Belichick, Well why would he. I've met Belichick
Speaker 1: treated him like shit, And in fairness to Bill if
Speaker 1: your Bill, like, how do you respect this guy? Right
Speaker 1: when when I'm dealing with your dad and I think
Speaker 1: this is a And there have been reports that Bill
Speaker 1: is not happy with this the way this makes him look,
Speaker 1: because it makes him look like a scumback, which listen.
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't view Belichick like his mother Teresa.
Speaker 1: But was this necessary? It feels a little calculated the timing,
Speaker 1: and this is not the players. You know, Tom and
Speaker 1: Gronk and Adaman, all these guys speak very highly to Bill.
Speaker 1: I do think Jonathan Kraft, though, wants to start like
Speaker 1: being anti Bill and anti everything that went on beside
Speaker 1: the Super Bowls and kind of a new sheriff in town,
Speaker 1: which is human nature how most children do when they
Speaker 1: inherit stuff. They kind of get rid of some of
Speaker 1: the people that were mean to him. Mark Davis did
Speaker 1: the same thing with Al's guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's funny. Wes Welker was the one
Speaker 2: guy that came out and said, yeah, it was obvious.
Speaker 2: A lot of guys trash talk and talk bullshit in
Speaker 2: the locker room. He's like, yeah, Aaron would say things
Speaker 2: that were just not like that. And then they played
Speaker 2: a piece of audio tape of Aaron talking about something
Speaker 2: that was pretty obscene and yeah, I mean you go
Speaker 2: back to his family, the whole Aaron Hernan his family,
Speaker 2: there was a there was a lot of truck going there.
Speaker 2: It was a lot going on, but it's pretty coldful.
Speaker 1: I don't blame the Patriots for the murder. I mean,
Speaker 1: no one in the right mind. I just felt like
Speaker 1: Jonathan Kraft kind of tried to point the fingers specifically
Speaker 1: at Bill, like Bill would have been cool playing with
Speaker 1: a murderer. Like, no one, no one in that building,
Speaker 1: full high character guys knew what was going on clearly,
Speaker 1: I mean, murdered the guy right down the street from
Speaker 1: his house and clearly had murdered people before. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is, you can go to every organization,
Speaker 2: even that most of the top college programs. Listen, you
Speaker 2: can't have eighty five guys on scholarship in college. You're
Speaker 2: gonna roll the dice on some guy. You know. Nick
Speaker 2: Saban said, what do you want me to do if
Speaker 2: a guy gets in trouble, Throw him out onto the streets,
Speaker 2: or you want me to rehab him. He goes a
Speaker 2: lot of people that get into trouble end up being
Speaker 2: great dads, great business people. And I completely you know,
Speaker 2: defend Saban in college or Belichick in the NFL, Aaron Hernandez.
Speaker 2: You can't blame anybody but Aaron. He's got to be
Speaker 2: culpable for him. Chris Carter said when he talks to rookies.
Speaker 2: They had a speech during the Dynasty where he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I had to look at myself in the mirror.
Speaker 2: Because Chris had kind of a turbulent early couple of
Speaker 2: years in the NFL. Aaron asked a question directly to
Speaker 2: Chris at one of those symposiums, as if it was
Speaker 2: kind of a foretell on what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: He said, basically, how did you turn it around? And
Speaker 2: Chris is like, I look myself in the mirror, and
Speaker 2: I told friends that were bad influences, don't call me. Well.
Speaker 1: I also think when he goes to Bill and asks
Speaker 1: for a trade to the West Coast and then he
Speaker 1: does get traded, people are, oh, Bill, Bill's best player.
Speaker 1: Bill doesn't know what's going on. There was a lot
Speaker 1: going on. The other thing, I went out the night
Speaker 1: before I left with a scouting buddy and he brought
Speaker 1: some other scouting buddies. One thing that can be very
Speaker 1: very difficult at these big programs, and I would put
Speaker 1: Florida under this umbrella, is so when you get these
Speaker 1: famous players and just players in general that are gonna
Speaker 1: get drafted, it's much harder to get the truth nowadays
Speaker 1: because it gets back to these programs so quickly of
Speaker 1: the recruiting elements that my friends have said, they have
Speaker 1: to work extra hard to get the on the character
Speaker 1: guys to really dig because you kind of get the
Speaker 1: PC version of like, hey he's got some issues, but
Speaker 1: everything's fine. It's it takes a lot of effort. We're
Speaker 1: back in the day they tell you everything. They weren't
Speaker 1: worried about it now everyone with social media stories getting out.
Speaker 1: Some of these programs are very very hesitant and they
Speaker 1: give you, you know, a very watered down version of
Speaker 1: what is going on, and they know what's truly going
Speaker 1: on because they're you know, helping some sweep some of
Speaker 1: the stuff under the rug because it all gets back
Speaker 1: to them and they don't want their program to look
Speaker 1: like it's anti player. So there are just a lot
Speaker 1: of variables with this stuff. So like you know, obviously
Speaker 1: those Florida teams, Urban there's some craziness going on, right
Speaker 1: but just giving out the information at will, I don't
Speaker 1: care who you are. I mean, Bill's one of his
Speaker 1: best friends.
Speaker 2: Urban Meyer, Yeah, leaned on him heavily through the years.
Speaker 2: He and Saban because Bill doesn't watch college football. Herm Edwills,
Speaker 2: you know, got him. Nikhil Harry. Was it Nikhil Henry?
Speaker 1: No, it was Harry. It was Nikhil Harry, who I
Speaker 1: thought was pretty good college player, but god, he was
Speaker 1: terrible in the pros.
Speaker 2: Couldn't separate. So you know, you and I have been
Speaker 2: on this for a while that offensive coaches. McVeigh moved
Speaker 2: off Golf who got to a Super Bowl. Shanahan moved
Speaker 2: off Garoppolo that got to a Super Bowl. Andy Reid
Speaker 2: moved off Alex Smith, who consistently could get into the playoffs.
Speaker 2: The Steelers defensive culture are sticking with Kenny Pickett. When
Speaker 2: I see that, I think to myself, you understand Burrow,
Speaker 2: Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson, and really some really sharp coaches
Speaker 2: are in the division. Do you think they're sticking with
Speaker 2: Kenny Pickett or they just don't want to publicly hammer
Speaker 2: a local kid because you can't watch him and think
Speaker 2: that's gonna win in the AFC. He could be the
Speaker 2: fourteenth to fifteenth best quarterback in the AFC.
Speaker 1: One thing, I heard a lot of Russell Wilson rumors
Speaker 1: to Pittsburgh just because with the Broncos paying almost forty
Speaker 1: million dollars. You can get him for a million dollars,
Speaker 1: so he's relatively cheap. But the moment you signed that,
Speaker 1: Russell's not competing for a job, right, He's better than
Speaker 1: Kenny Pickett. If that truly happens, and they're not interested
Speaker 1: in these other guys and don't are actively drafting a quarterback,
Speaker 1: that's insane. One thing I've heard in the league is
Speaker 1: for a long period of time with Kevin Colbert, who
Speaker 1: was one of the best general managers in the league,
Speaker 1: and Mike Tomlin, who's a really solid coach. I mean,
Speaker 1: has some flaws, but Mike Tomlin's better than most. I
Speaker 1: do think this transition and their new front office, I
Speaker 1: don't think they're quite viewed like the same powerhouse, like
Speaker 1: the Ravens transition from Azzie, who works more than any
Speaker 1: retired human you'll ever see. I thought I retired three
Speaker 1: years ago. You see him at the Comboy sitting right there.
Speaker 1: The Ravens didn't skip a beat, right, da Costa right there.
Speaker 1: I think the Steelers they got a lot going on,
Speaker 1: right when it comes to the transition in front off,
Speaker 1: which is natural. Most teams don't just go smooth GM
Speaker 1: to GM or coach to coach, and I just think
Speaker 1: they're an organization to kind of keep an eye on.
Speaker 1: Did I wonder if it's quite as how long can
Speaker 1: you keep this up? Let's face it, fifty years they've
Speaker 1: been pretty consistent, like it's bound to maybe they'll go
Speaker 1: through a little downturn right now, but a lot of
Speaker 1: people in the NFL kind of have them a little
Speaker 1: red flagged operationally. I would say, not necessarily Tomblin, just
Speaker 1: the new GM, just the new thoughts from the front office.
Speaker 1: He's more of an analytical guy had come over originally.
Speaker 1: I think from the contract stuff. Kevin Colbert more of
Speaker 1: an old school Rooney type scout. It's just something to
Speaker 1: peak at as we move on toward football.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's been you know, Tomlin has his defenders,
Speaker 2: and I like you, I think he in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, developing players, especially defensive players, they get better.
Speaker 2: He's a good motivator. There's some Pete Carroll there where
Speaker 2: he does a good job. You know, he's very good
Speaker 2: with young players giving him confidence, getting him into a system,
Speaker 2: and getting ramping young players up very quickly to play
Speaker 2: in this league and I don't think Pete was ever
Speaker 2: good with old lines. I don't think Tomlin is. I
Speaker 2: don't think McDermott necessarily is where I think Andy Reid
Speaker 2: and Shanahan and McVeigh, you know, they're rebuilding those old lines.
Speaker 2: Last year, what McVeigh did with the old line of
Speaker 2: the Rams insane. He had tackles playing guards, guards, plan tackle.
Speaker 2: It was incredible. But I look at Tomlin and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, the standard of Pittsburgh for most of my
Speaker 2: life was like Super Bowls and AFC championships. Whenever I
Speaker 2: hear this never had a losing season. It's so odd
Speaker 2: to me. Can you imagine McVeigh bragging about that, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just like Pittsburgh's standard went down.
Speaker 2: And again you can go look at Dave wanstat wanstat
Speaker 2: when he was in Miami his four years there had
Speaker 2: a better winning percentage, I believe than Tomlin, and he
Speaker 2: got run. So I think it's one of those things
Speaker 2: where the Rooneys are reticent to make big sweeping changes
Speaker 2: and Mike secure. But I just, off the top of
Speaker 2: my head when I think of Super Bowl teams, I
Speaker 2: haven't thought of the Steelers in seven eight years. I
Speaker 2: think of the Ravens immediately, I think of McVeigh and
Speaker 2: Shanahan immediately, I think of Andy Reid immediately. There's four
Speaker 2: Philadelphia as always in the mix. There's like five or
Speaker 2: six teams in the league. Baltimore's won. I just think
Speaker 2: quarterback or not. It's like that structurally sound the standard
Speaker 2: in Pittsburgh Queer, I was anti pitt It's just like
Speaker 2: I consider them to be about like the twentieth best
Speaker 2: football team. If Kenny Pickett starts twentieth best football team
Speaker 2: in the league, well.
Speaker 1: Then factor in their division. Right. The Ravens have proven
Speaker 1: with Lamar Jackson as long as he's playing, even when
Speaker 1: he missed a couple of years ago in Huntley. But
Speaker 1: they're gonna be good with Lamar Jackson, right, They're not
Speaker 1: going away. The Bengals, who I had a pro scout.
Speaker 1: I remember Greg Papa told me this is the super Bowl.
Speaker 1: He's been calling games for twenty five years, the best
Speaker 1: game he's ever seen live. Joe Burrow this year against
Speaker 1: the forty nine ers, pro scout told me it was
Speaker 1: the best game he saw on tape. Now, injuries are
Speaker 1: a question with Joe Burrow. What is not a question.
Speaker 1: If he's on the field, he's a dominant, elite player.
Speaker 1: And the Bengals haven't lost. They didn't lose their defensive coordinator,
Speaker 1: so they had the same play caller, the head coach,
Speaker 1: they have the quarterback, they have this infrastructure of an offense,
Speaker 1: they have an excellent defensive coordinator. If Joe Burrow plays
Speaker 1: a full season, which it's fair to question that right
Speaker 1: now because he's been injured, they're a playoff team. So
Speaker 1: we're Pittsburgh benefited this year because Burrow. How many games
Speaker 1: did he play right? He was by middle of the
Speaker 1: season he tore his armyes out and they were still
Speaker 1: kind of competitive. But if he plays like Pittsburgh's definitely
Speaker 1: looking up at those two and the Browns. I talked
Speaker 1: to Stefanski for a little. Stefanski is an impressive guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's clearly a good play caller. Now they you know,
Speaker 1: Watson's cap hit this year goes from like nineteen to
Speaker 1: sixty these next three years, so they're gonna lose a
Speaker 1: lot of the depth. So they're I'm not feeling as strong,
Speaker 1: They're just gonna be as good. But I know the
Speaker 1: Ravens are good and I know the Bengals dominate when
Speaker 1: they got Joe Burrow. So you just look at the Steelers.
Speaker 1: They're very dependent on some of these MIKEU. Fitzpatricks and TJ.
Speaker 1: Watt having thirty sacks or else you're gonna win Eventually.
Speaker 1: This is you're not gonna have one of those nine
Speaker 1: to eight seasons where you can pind your chest and
Speaker 1: you're gonna win five games. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna look up here very quickly the free
Speaker 2: agent period in the NFL. So what day does it
Speaker 2: start here?
Speaker 1: Well, the negotiations the eleven, Then he kicks off the.
Speaker 2: Thirteenth, so we're about ten days from it. Do you think?
Speaker 2: What do you think? So, if you had to hedge
Speaker 2: your bet here, give me your three biggest free agent signings.
Speaker 1: Well, I think I do think Kirk Cousin's gonna end
Speaker 1: up in Atlanta because I think they're gonna throw a
Speaker 1: lot of money at him. I mean, their owner, another
Speaker 1: guy over eighty ton of money. There's gonna be some
Speaker 1: urgency on them to win financially. This will be one
Speaker 1: of the lowest, but I do think it's by far
Speaker 1: the biggest headlines. I do think Russell Wilson and Pittsburgh
Speaker 1: makes some sense because Russell's been humbled a lot, right,
Speaker 1: And I also think, what's he going to do go
Speaker 1: in there with TJ. Watt and MIKEA. Fitzpatrick and Cam
Speaker 1: Hayward and act kind of weird like it's not and
Speaker 1: Mike tomlin So and even Sean Payton kind of forced
Speaker 1: it like hey, you just either got to ship in
Speaker 1: or ship out.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: Ultimately he was always gonna ship him out. But I
Speaker 1: think that's a place that is just I think it
Speaker 1: makes some sense because, like you said, the standard, you
Speaker 1: can't roll back Canny Pickett. There's pressure on you win
Speaker 1: the AFC. I mean you got Harbaugh. Now, the charges
Speaker 1: are gonna be good. Yeah, the Chiefs are a dynasty.
Speaker 1: Even Miami it's got some question marks, Like their coach
Speaker 1: is pretty good, they can score on offense, They're gonna
Speaker 1: be competitive the Bills, like it's the AFC is really
Speaker 1: really hard. And then I think it'll be one of
Speaker 1: the defensive linemen. You know, one thing talking to It's
Speaker 1: always funny when you talk to pro scouts because I
Speaker 1: always assume, like, Eh, how's this organization. They're pretty impressive.
Speaker 1: We're like Yeah, I'm hearing some things. You know, you
Speaker 1: get that sometimes, right. We know that the Rams, the Niners,
Speaker 1: the Chiefs, the Ravens, but then there are all these
Speaker 1: like the Dolphins, and one thing I heard is they
Speaker 1: got a lot of financial cap issues. Right. The Fangio
Speaker 1: thing was a disaster. A lot of theories at the combine,
Speaker 1: which makes sense. Hard and you and I have talked
Speaker 1: about this hard place to build a culture in Miami.
Speaker 1: When you have all these young guys in their twenties,
Speaker 1: beautiful women everywhere social media, it's easy to find stuff
Speaker 1: going on. Vic Fangio had had enough, no one would
Speaker 1: listen on there. Like his track record kind of speaks
Speaker 1: for herself. He knows what he's doing. So Christian Wilkins,
Speaker 1: who's one of the better defensive tackles in the NFL.
Speaker 1: They're probably not gonna franchise them because I can't afford them, right,
Speaker 1: because of their cap situation. Very good, they're elite and
Speaker 1: those type guys don't often. It's a second contract hit
Speaker 1: the open market. Same thing with the defensive tackle ninety
Speaker 1: two for the Ravens. I screw up his name. I'd
Speaker 1: have got coach with the Ravens like he's like John Randall.
Speaker 1: So when if those type players hit the market, I
Speaker 1: mean you're talking seventy eighty million dollars guaranteed and then
Speaker 1: you know the NFL contractor you got to decipher him,
Speaker 1: but probably one hundred and forty million dollar contract. So
Speaker 1: anytime defensive lineman hit offensive linemen usually don't you know
Speaker 1: the Cowboys Tyron Smith, Well, he's what thirty five years old,
Speaker 1: he's been injured a million times. He's got the Chiefs
Speaker 1: or someone will sign him to a one year deal,
Speaker 1: but his name is bigger than is what you can
Speaker 1: But the young defensive linemen who are four or five
Speaker 1: years in they are going to get an astronomical amount
Speaker 1: of money if they true If Chris Joe just say,
Speaker 1: I mean what Kansas City is gonna have to pay them?
Speaker 1: Like Lugerious Snead who is a big time corner. But
Speaker 1: what are the Chiefs proof, Well, we just drafted Trent McDuffie.
Speaker 1: Heach has proven he can draft dbs. So what will
Speaker 1: they do? I would imagine they're going to try to
Speaker 1: trade him to a team like the Lions desperate for
Speaker 1: a dB. Hey, this guy could be your star dB
Speaker 1: he's been a star for us. He's one you know
Speaker 1: his character, you know he's smart. You give us your
Speaker 1: late first round pick. Here's this guy, you give him
Speaker 1: sixty seventy million dollars guaranteed. Like that. Those are the
Speaker 1: type and that's what happens at the combine all those
Speaker 1: type discussions. But look at the Chiefs. They're in position.
Speaker 1: Then keep a guy, they can trade a guy. And
Speaker 1: then you got a team like the Dolphins, one of
Speaker 1: their best players that they can't even franchise because financially
Speaker 1: doesn't even make sense on their books. So a lot
Speaker 1: of different organizations, who are you know, struggling? One thing
Speaker 1: I noticed, just because I know so many people with
Speaker 1: the Chiefs, it turns out I know a bunch a
Speaker 1: lot of people with the Ravens. The top seven eight
Speaker 1: organizations are really just kind of competing with themselves.
Speaker 2: I know, yep, I.
Speaker 1: Mean ten organizations. You kind of walk around, you see
Speaker 1: people wearing the logo, You're like, you got no shot,
Speaker 1: you got no shot. And then a couple teams if
Speaker 1: they hit, like the Texans are clearly on the common
Speaker 1: moving forward, But a lot of teams they're just getting
Speaker 1: that four hundred million dollar check from the league. They're
Speaker 1: making some money, but they have no shot John in
Speaker 1: this league.
Speaker 2: One of the things I talked about last week on
Speaker 2: the show. I think it was last week or the
Speaker 2: week before. I was on vacation. I said, yeah, I
Speaker 2: came back and I talked about this. My takeaway when
Speaker 2: they said every team got an additional thirty an additional
Speaker 2: thirty million dollars in cap space because of the TV contracts.
Speaker 2: So that was a pleasant surprise to these cap strained
Speaker 2: NFL teams. And my takeaway is you're going to see
Speaker 2: the same six to seven teams at the top because
Speaker 2: now Kansas City gets to they could franchise Tag Sneed
Speaker 2: or move him, and they got to keep Chris Jones,
Speaker 2: and so San Francisco a lot of discussion about what
Speaker 2: to do with Kittle, what do we do with both linebackers,
Speaker 2: But now you can keep them, and so I looked
Speaker 2: at that as the league becomes this surprisingly nimble revenue machine,
Speaker 2: all it does is make the NFL a bit more
Speaker 2: like college football, where you kind of know the top
Speaker 2: six to eight programs annually. So I mean, the one
Speaker 2: team I think is very interesting as a breakthrough team
Speaker 2: is Washington because of all their cap space. I like
Speaker 2: their I don't know if I love Dan Quinn. I
Speaker 2: like the Kingsbury, Dan Combo. I think you have a
Speaker 2: very smart guy in the front office now the GM.
Speaker 2: I like the cap space. I like their weapons. It's
Speaker 2: just I increasingly think Jayden Daniels is going to get
Speaker 2: picked over Drake May And I'm going to pivot to
Speaker 2: that in a second. But there's very few If I
Speaker 2: said to you, give me Houston this year, because if
Speaker 2: you really look at what happened, takes Cincinnati because they
Speaker 2: would have been good with Burrow. They always are. The
Speaker 2: only surprise in the late Green I mean, Detroit wasn't
Speaker 2: a surprise them to win the division? You did, everybody did.
Speaker 2: We knew they were good and loaded. The only surprise
Speaker 2: was Houston. If I said give me the Houston, the
Speaker 2: only one I can look at is Washington, and the
Speaker 2: cap space is a big part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it would be more like you would
Speaker 1: pick Green Bay is gonna win the Super Bowl. It'd
Speaker 1: be one of those teams that was a first or
Speaker 1: second or the Rams Super Bowl. It'd be that team
Speaker 1: that's already kind of that was one and done this
Speaker 1: year takes a big step and it's a thirteen to
Speaker 1: fourteen win team competing to be the number one seed.
Speaker 1: That's back to what I said about the group like,
Speaker 1: it's the Lions are really well run. Now I met
Speaker 1: a guy who's out to lunch with one of my
Speaker 1: buddies from the Eagles the Packers, one of their number
Speaker 1: two guys comes over. You're just like, God, this guy's impressive.
Speaker 1: No wonder, they're well run. And you just see some
Speaker 1: of these other people. You hear some stories are pointing
Speaker 1: at these guys. You just this league. Like most industries,
Speaker 1: the best people usually work for the best teams. And
Speaker 1: when the shitty teams hire good people. Look at what
Speaker 1: the Lions did. That GM they hired from the Rams
Speaker 1: is clearly really good. Yes. And dan Quinn is he
Speaker 1: ever gonna be? Really the mold he's in in the
Speaker 1: umbrella he's under. He's not a Shannon Handerma because he's
Speaker 1: not a true play caller. He's much more like a
Speaker 1: hardball brother. He's more of a leader, and you gotta
Speaker 1: give him credit. He's a good coach. Hire Look he
Speaker 1: hired and this is where you get credit. Ben Johnson,
Speaker 1: I'd never heard of Ben Johnson three years ago, and
Speaker 1: you get a lot of credit for doing that. Like
Speaker 1: one thing that was clear with the Eagles. I've been
Speaker 1: around him and known these people fifteen year. They are
Speaker 1: a well run organization. They had a bad year hiring
Speaker 1: two assistant coaches. The two coordinators were whiffs. Well what
Speaker 1: they do. They went out and got Vic Fangio and
Speaker 1: they're paying Kellen More a ton of money, so they
Speaker 1: have no problem pivoting really fast. They don't go, well,
Speaker 1: let's just try to make this work. They're like, no,
Speaker 1: you're gone. You're gone. And they're a little more cutthroat
Speaker 1: than some but it's why they're able to turn things
Speaker 1: over and figure it out quicker where some people hold
Speaker 1: on for dear life and the dan Quinn thing. Like
Speaker 1: I've known Adam Peters forever. I think Adam Peters is
Speaker 1: a superstar. Like I mean, I think he's a GM Yeah,
Speaker 1: Bob Myers, you know John Lynch, he's in that mold
Speaker 1: of just kind of has it right his personality. He
Speaker 1: played at UCLA. He's worked for Belichick, John Elway, and
Speaker 1: John Lynch. Yeah, those are three guys. He's got rings
Speaker 1: multiple different teams, and was a big part of two
Speaker 1: Super Bowl teams with the forty nine ers. I think
Speaker 1: what Washington's looking for is this isn't apples d apples.
Speaker 1: But when Mark Jackson took over the Warriors, the Warriors
Speaker 1: had been shitty for a couple decades. He just got
Speaker 1: the train on the tracks. I think they just looking
Speaker 1: for dan Quinn, just get us competitive, Like we'd love
Speaker 1: for you to be one of the best coach in
Speaker 1: the league. But if you just get us in a
Speaker 1: couple of years, we're just winning nine or ten games.
Speaker 1: That's where I think the Giants are in a little trouble.
Speaker 1: When you look at that division. The Cowboys a well run. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the Eagles have proven they're pretty consistent in their ability
Speaker 1: to find talent. Washington's gonna be dramatically better than they've
Speaker 1: been for twenty plus years. So the Giants have a
Speaker 1: lot of question mark, starting with their quarterback, which is
Speaker 1: an al latrosh awful contract, and the coach. Let's face it,
Speaker 1: it was an impressive years first year. Turns out him
Speaker 1: and the defensive coordinator couldn't stand each other. Two years
Speaker 1: ago he walked out of the building. A lot of
Speaker 1: coaching turnover in that building, in the talent is just
Speaker 1: not great.
Speaker 2: Kind of wrapping up the combine, I want to talk
Speaker 2: about this. You know, when when I was younger, you know,
Speaker 2: some women you date and some you look at and think,
Speaker 2: you know, this could be long term. You could marry
Speaker 2: and that's okay. Women look at men just the same way.
Speaker 2: Some you date, some you marry. And I've thought about
Speaker 2: this for a long time as I watched the combine
Speaker 2: and listened to all the quarterback talk. If you told
Speaker 2: me Michael Pennix gave me four years, I would draft
Speaker 2: him if I was a team that was just sort
Speaker 2: of stuck. If I was Sean Payton and somebody said,
Speaker 2: you know, he's available, It's funny. Whereas everybody else is
Speaker 2: viewed as a long term solution this league. Now by
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving of year two, people in the building are making
Speaker 2: decisions on quarterbacks. I mean, I think the Giants coaches
Speaker 2: that they're not dan Neil Jones fans mara Is there's
Speaker 2: some sort of weird connectivity to Eli Manning and Daniel Jones,
Speaker 2: Southern kids, tall, dark hair, whatever. But I sort of
Speaker 2: look at Michael Pennix and I'm like, not every quarterback
Speaker 2: you draft has to be Brady. If you're in Washington's
Speaker 2: in chaos.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: They're not going to get him with that pick, obviously,
Speaker 2: But if you start looking where Pennicks goes.
Speaker 1: Isn't two of the best example with Miami, he's not great,
Speaker 1: but he's just he just stabilized the franchise.
Speaker 2: Like I see Pennis in terms of throwing the football.
Speaker 2: You know, big strong kid, he's not going to run.
Speaker 2: He's clearly a pocket guy. What are you hearing about him?
Speaker 2: Because you know he came out, his hand size, his wingspan.
Speaker 2: I watched him live. He throws up the sideline like
Speaker 2: a twelve year pro. Like he is really aside. You
Speaker 2: know a lot of these quarterbacks like bow next, I like,
Speaker 2: doesn't throw a deep ball. Pennix was a great deep ball.
Speaker 2: He's not gonna move it all. What are you hearing?
Speaker 1: You know? I think Daniel Jeremiah said it yesterday when
Speaker 1: he was throwing. He throws the most beautiful ball here
Speaker 1: by far of the quarterbacks that were throwing. I mean
Speaker 1: half of him didn't throw. I had friends, I remember
Speaker 1: watching him a lot. I remember the game you went
Speaker 1: to and watching that game. Thing like this is a
Speaker 1: top ten pick and start texting around. A lot of
Speaker 1: people had him in the second and third rounds. Now,
Speaker 1: when you're a scout, you're closer to it, right, you
Speaker 1: have all the in depth medical information. He had basically
Speaker 1: not completed four straight years, and a couple of those
Speaker 1: were shoulders, So if you've been scouting for ten fifteen years,
Speaker 1: that terrifies you. And then in the game against Oregon,
Speaker 1: In both games against Oregon, and definitely the game against Michigan,
Speaker 1: which are his best competition and NFL level players everywhere
Speaker 1: on the other side of the ball, he had to
Speaker 1: be picked up and kind of carried. So physically he's
Speaker 1: not His arms are really long and his hands are huge,
Speaker 1: but he's not a very I don't want to call
Speaker 1: him slender. To me, jayde more slender, but Jaden's much.
Speaker 1: Jaden's an elite athlete, so he can get away. Mike
Speaker 1: Pennix is not a lot like TUA. Their pocket quarterbacks.
Speaker 1: They're not mobile guys. They can move a little bit,
Speaker 1: but you're not running them at all. So I think
Speaker 1: the the size and he did not play well in
Speaker 1: that Michigan game, and that's an NFL team, and he
Speaker 1: had an NFL team in terms of his wide receivers.
Speaker 1: So I think you can find people like myself. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm just a couch scout now that went like, I'm
Speaker 1: with you. I've seen enough shitty quarterbacks in the NFL.
Speaker 1: If you're Sean Payton just a couple of years figured
Speaker 1: it out. Can this guy have you competing for the playoffs?
Speaker 1: And I have a lot of people to go. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't touch him in the first round. So he is
Speaker 1: easily one of the more most polarizing guys because ultimately
Speaker 1: Jaden McDaniel or Jade Daniels and Drake May they're going
Speaker 1: two and three in some order. Even Caleb he's not
Speaker 1: polarizing at all. He's going number one. Bo Nicks polarizing
Speaker 1: a little bit, but he's still gonna go pretty high. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. And JJ McCarthy a guy someone people are
Speaker 1: having a lot of discussion on, is gonna get drafted high.
Speaker 1: I bet you go in some draft rooms and they'll
Speaker 1: have this guy in the third round and other draft
Speaker 1: rooms that have them, you know, competing to be a
Speaker 1: top twenty pick. I like him because accuracy always matters.
Speaker 1: Deep ball in this NFL matters. If This was nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety two and we had to play the Cowboys, the
Speaker 1: forty nine Ers and the Packers, and Reggie White was tackling.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy's gonna get broken in half. The
Speaker 1: quarterback doesn't get touched that much. I've seen Brock Ferdy.
Speaker 1: It's not that big. Doesn't really get touched a lot
Speaker 1: of small quarterbacks, right, It's just even some of Kyler
Speaker 1: Murray didn't get injured in terms of tearing his acl tackled.
Speaker 1: He tore it running. And Michael Penix is not a runner.
Speaker 1: So the offensive line's gonna matter like it will with
Speaker 1: any young quarterback. But I like Michael PENNOCKX. But I
Speaker 1: don't think a lot of NFL teams. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of NFL teams lean second day draft pick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Andy Reid goes to the combine McVeigh Shannon and
Speaker 2: not interested.
Speaker 1: What is that? I think Andy Reid One defense I've
Speaker 1: heard of the Shanahans and the mcveigh's and McCarthy is
Speaker 1: this events become commercialized, right. They like prodding around their
Speaker 1: coaches and almost profiting off them. And it pisses off
Speaker 1: that crew of guys, which I push back and say,
Speaker 1: the reason you guys make twelve fifteen million dollars is
Speaker 1: the commercialization of the NFL, Like, welcome to the deal, guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They also would say, well, I still zoom into all
Speaker 1: the interviews at night, so when we interview ten guys
Speaker 1: at night, I'm sitting right there on the computer, and
Speaker 1: any human being would say it is not the same
Speaker 1: that being there. Andy Reid told me none of this matters. Right,
Speaker 1: the workouts, the medical I have nothing to do with
Speaker 1: as the head coach is out of my hands. The
Speaker 1: only thing that I come here for is when that
Speaker 1: guy walks into the room, Trent McDuffie, and for the
Speaker 1: first time I meet him and get to talk to
Speaker 1: him and just get a feel for been in the
Speaker 1: league long enough, just like all those guys. I get
Speaker 1: to introduce myself and talk to him and see how
Speaker 1: he interacts with my coaches. We tape tape that too.
Speaker 1: But the react you've interviewed people, what's your reaction interviewing
Speaker 1: someone for your show when they're on zoom or when
Speaker 1: you're sitting next to him in person, when you're interviewing
Speaker 1: someone for the volume in person at you know, meeting
Speaker 1: him for lunch then a telephone call. It's dramatically different.
Speaker 1: And these are million dollar investments. So I don't agree
Speaker 1: with them not coming. Can I understand some of the stuff.
Speaker 1: You're not obligated to talk to the media. You don't
Speaker 1: have to go to that little thing that Andy goes to.
Speaker 1: Belichick never did, never went. He still showed up for
Speaker 1: all the other stuff, the football stuff, which is very important.
Speaker 1: One thing with the forty nine ers, like they've hit
Speaker 1: on a lot of picks in the third, fourth, and
Speaker 1: fifth round. They've missed on a lot of high picks.
Speaker 1: So you know, if Andy Reid's going to be there,
Speaker 1: if Belichick went for forty years, Pete Carroll never missed it,
Speaker 1: there's definitely some value there. And I'm not these guys
Speaker 1: aren't lazy individuals, but I do think they're wrong. I mean,
Speaker 1: who am I to tell them, But I just there's
Speaker 1: a value there. Clearly the best coach in the league.
Speaker 1: If you said, hey, there's a podcasting convention, Coward's going,
Speaker 1: Rogan's going, and Big Cat's going, should I go? Probably right,
Speaker 1: It's like, what are we doing? You know I would
Speaker 1: get if Kyle of just won the Super Bowl and
Speaker 1: he was off with his family, like you lost. This
Speaker 1: draft's kind of big McVeigh. You've been They got knocked
Speaker 1: out in the first round, right, but they just can't stay.
Speaker 1: I saw a less sneed somewhere. He didn't even go like,
Speaker 1: it's not pinching pennies. This league's making so much money.
Speaker 1: I can't get behind the interview meeting these guys because
Speaker 1: it is important. And then you talked to a lot
Speaker 1: of it. Then what happens middle of the season. This
Speaker 1: guy can't learn, this guy can't figure it out. It's
Speaker 1: not this guy. Well, you had the opportunity to meet
Speaker 1: the guy, right, you could have controlled some more of it.
Speaker 1: So coaches are always QUI to complain when they don't
Speaker 1: want to do some of this, and in fairness like
Speaker 1: this is not the combines, more about the scouting staff.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, once the guy's drafted, the coaches around him
Speaker 1: a lot more in the GM and the scouts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's interesting. I'd less needs take was, you know,
Speaker 2: we do things a little different around here. I don't
Speaker 2: have any My guess was a lot of the young
Speaker 2: coaches feel like it's an old boys network, you know,
Speaker 2: like when McVay decided I'm not going to play any
Speaker 2: starters in the preseason and got, you know, some pushback,
Speaker 2: and then they went eight to no to start the season.
Speaker 2: And now the young guys, now Bruce Arians when he coached,
Speaker 2: wanted to play starters. Belichick did, and he did, but
Speaker 2: the young coaches it was like Robin Hood. All the
Speaker 2: young coaches fall of McVeigh. They didn't want to play
Speaker 2: any of their starters. So I do think there's a
Speaker 2: division of coaches in the NFL. There's been McVeigh and
Speaker 2: Lafleur and Shanahan, Raheem Morris, you know they see the
Speaker 2: world a little bit differently.
Speaker 1: Well, that's Shanahan crew for sure. We'll look at to
Speaker 1: all the parcels, guys parcells, Sean Payton there, Dan Campbell,
Speaker 1: parcels under Sean Payton there. So I think, whoever all
Speaker 1: Andy Reid's guys go to this, Pete Carroll's guys go
Speaker 1: to this. Dan quinn was there, So I think, whoever
Speaker 1: your mentor is or if Kyle's not going, I don't
Speaker 1: need to mcveigh's not going, I don't need to go.
Speaker 1: Not quite sure on McCarthy, he's surprised to be there,
Speaker 1: but Jerry Steven that's a little bit of a unique organization.
Speaker 1: Like they ain't ask him McCarthy's opinion. They're gonna take
Speaker 1: whoever they want to take. Anyway, Robert Sala was a
Speaker 1: guy who didn't want to go, and I think some
Speaker 1: articles were written like you guys aren't good enough to
Speaker 1: not show up, and he ended up showing up.
Speaker 2: You know, I had ian Ian O'Connor on great author.
Speaker 2: He's wrote Belichick, Derek cheterbook Captain, The Rising Ring of
Speaker 2: Mike Krzyzewski. He's writing an Aaron Rodgers book, Out of
Speaker 2: the Darkness, which it comes out September. I cannot wait
Speaker 2: to read that book. And I think the Jets, I think,
Speaker 2: first of all, I think Aaron's a very complex, fascinating
Speaker 2: pro athlete. You know, he's got he's got a little
Speaker 2: bit of the smartest guy in the room thing, but
Speaker 2: he's a smart guy. So that's who Aeron is. I've
Speaker 2: said this before and I said it last year. I
Speaker 2: didn't pick him as a playoff team. They got they
Speaker 2: gotta be good early because that Jets situation. When that
Speaker 2: Nicole Hardman came thing out, he said basically, yeah, I've
Speaker 2: been with the Chiefs, and I've been with the Jets.
Speaker 2: You guys don't have to believe me, but I know
Speaker 2: what winning looks like, and that ain't it. And that
Speaker 2: offense is just making shit up as they go With Aaron,
Speaker 2: I got to tell you can. You don't have to
Speaker 2: be a great player to have great access. Like I
Speaker 2: thought that was damning by the way you could tell
Speaker 2: it was because multiple Jets fired back and a guy
Speaker 2: who had one catch as a Jet. What did you
Speaker 2: make of that?
Speaker 1: Well? I said this when the season and ended, I
Speaker 1: am one hundred percent not falling from them again. I
Speaker 1: will not pick them to make the playoffs. I don't
Speaker 1: even give a shit who they sign or draft. I'm
Speaker 1: not buying it, no chance none. I think the Rogers
Speaker 1: thing five plays or whatever it was, but if you've
Speaker 1: watched him for a long time, you could tell he
Speaker 1: wasn't quite as quick. And you're telling me, and this
Speaker 1: is the thing with the Cousins. Cousins doesn't move outside
Speaker 1: of a two yard radius. Rogers greatness. And the reason
Speaker 1: you give a first round pick for a guy thirty
Speaker 1: nine you're paying all this money to was all the
Speaker 1: ad libbing and the movement stuff on top of the
Speaker 1: arm in the accuracy that's gone, I'm betting against that.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is the organizational. No one
Speaker 1: I know thinks Nathaniel Hackett's any good and that's not
Speaker 1: even factoring in. Rogers tells him everything to do. So
Speaker 1: you got this guy that is not some natural talent.
Speaker 1: You talk to people in the NFL, and I do
Speaker 1: agree with this is most coaches on offense, if you
Speaker 1: just get a quarterback coach, no coverages and no schemes,
Speaker 1: there is like an innate ability to call plays. Some
Speaker 1: guys have it, some guys do not. A lot of
Speaker 1: people have personalities. If you put a microphone in front
Speaker 1: of them, could they carry a show for an hour?
Speaker 1: Probably not, but some people would be able to, just
Speaker 1: like Shane Stiken had it. Brian Johnson this year the
Speaker 1: Eagles found out does not have it right. Both of
Speaker 1: them could get on a whiteboard and tell you different
Speaker 1: things right, and you'd be like, Ah, this guy knows
Speaker 1: a lot of football. So Nathaniel Hackett is not viewed
Speaker 1: that way. Rogers kind of is, But he's kind of
Speaker 1: like this Lebron James figure where he always gets his
Speaker 1: way well you're not quite the same player. And then
Speaker 1: there's these weird dynamics in the organization. I mean, the
Speaker 1: athletic article coming out people whatever there is that never happens,
Speaker 1: Andy Reid. Why because everyone respects everyone. A lot of organizations,
Speaker 1: when people don't respect each other, they start stabbing each
Speaker 1: other in the back self preservation.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like a white house. If there's a lot
Speaker 2: of leaks, it tells you everything you know about the
Speaker 2: president of the White House.
Speaker 1: It's chaotic, and that to me was on full display.
Speaker 1: And in fairness to everyone in there, if you're leaking,
Speaker 1: you're like, this is all going down. So you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get some stuff out there. And that's what's
Speaker 1: happening because you realize right away Aaron can't save us.
Speaker 1: And even if he was one hundred percent healthy this year,
Speaker 1: do they make the playoffs? The on line was terrible.
Speaker 1: Probably not well, their on line's not gonna be that
Speaker 1: much better. Their talent's not that great. I think they're
Speaker 1: headed for complete implosion and a complete disaster. So and
Speaker 1: a lot's gonna have to do with a guy. We've
Speaker 1: seen it with these other older quarterbacks of his generation.
Speaker 1: Manning in breeze the moment they lost, and those guys
Speaker 1: weren't dependent on movement at all, but their arms just went.
Speaker 1: It was done. Roger's arm is still gonna be solid.
Speaker 1: If he can't move, he's gonna be much closer to
Speaker 1: the fifteenth overall guy than he is the six or seven.
Speaker 1: And then you got a problem because they're not good
Speaker 1: enough to overcome that.
Speaker 2: Go look at old quarterbacks. So Stafford had Whitworth, Andrew Whitworth.
Speaker 2: Stafford had a good O line. Older quarterback won a
Speaker 2: Super Bowl with the Rams. Brady had a good O line,
Speaker 2: they drafted, they were weak at right tackle. Tristan Wurfs
Speaker 2: won a Super Bowl. Russell and Denver with Peyton decent
Speaker 2: O line had a decent year Rogers battle line out
Speaker 2: in four snaps. O lines are significantly more important to
Speaker 2: older quarterbacks, and that there's no question. By the way
Speaker 2: Whitworth retires, Stafford gets hurt and the wheels come off.
Speaker 2: Then last year they shore you know, they get Dotson
Speaker 2: from the Steelers, they draft another guard, they shore up
Speaker 2: their middle. They're good enough at center, and Stafford's good again.
Speaker 2: So I don't think you can say what you want.
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, an offensive line matters much less
Speaker 2: for a hyper athletic quarterback. In the first three or
Speaker 2: four years. I mean, Kyler Murray made the playoffs running
Speaker 2: for his life. Russell Wilson never had. They had Tom Cable.
Speaker 2: Russell will never had great on lines in Seattle in
Speaker 2: his prime. He got to two Super Bowls. The weakness
Speaker 2: was the offensive line. That Jets on line. Let's say
Speaker 2: they get the third best left tackle, because about eight
Speaker 2: will get picked in this draft. That guy's Andrew Thomas
Speaker 2: and the Giants is excellent. He wasn't ready to play
Speaker 2: as a rookie. These left tackles. None of these guys
Speaker 2: are great. Trent Williams, Tyron Smith was for.
Speaker 1: The Cowboys outliers.
Speaker 2: Even successful left tackles scrap for until Thanksgiving. That the
Speaker 2: game is just so fast. These I mean, the best
Speaker 2: athletes outside a wide receiver in this league are arguably
Speaker 2: rush ends. So I just think they're gonna get a
Speaker 2: left tackle. He'll be fine. Rest of the O line
Speaker 2: is makeshift. Elijah Vera Tucker is never healthy. I think
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a mess.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is that that city like Philly
Speaker 1: is unlike anything else and there is a massive bullseye
Speaker 1: on that organized with Aaron and just with this operation.
Speaker 1: Now these articles coming out like everyone's paying attention. So
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're two and four. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking about Robert sala. If they are under five
Speaker 1: hundred throughout the season getting fired in the middle of
Speaker 1: the season, that's very possible. All of a sudden, Gerrod
Speaker 1: Mayo beat you on Halloween with some random quarterback and
Speaker 1: you fall to four and six. Dode luck see you later.
Speaker 1: And Rogers starts acting weird. Everyone starts pointing the fingers.
Speaker 1: That's what happens in New York, you know, it's It's
Speaker 1: just you can see it coming from a mile away.
Speaker 2: With this team, it's interesting. So Brady had some wants
Speaker 2: when he went to Tampa. But what he wanted he
Speaker 2: wanted Gronk, a winning player that still had juice in
Speaker 2: the tank. He wanted a b you know, a winning
Speaker 2: player who could make plays Aaron befriends like Randall Cobb,
Speaker 2: or an offensive lineman who's rotational, or Nat Hackett like
Speaker 2: I understand an older quarterback wanting to bring an ally
Speaker 2: like I totally get it on that side of the ball.
Speaker 1: Coaches do it all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just bring a guy that can play. It's like
Speaker 2: Aaron Alan Lazard, Randall Cobb and that Hackett that I mean,
Speaker 2: Brady came out and said, listen, I need my security blanket.
Speaker 2: Even Leonard Fournett, you know, Brady apparently just said, listen,
Speaker 2: he's a veteran, he's a little undervalued. He'll be fine.
Speaker 2: He's a gronk.
Speaker 1: They were, they were producing in yes games for the guy.
Speaker 1: All the guys Rogers brought over, if they were good,
Speaker 1: could not have produced. They would have been you know,
Speaker 1: kicked to the side for younger players. They weren't good
Speaker 1: enough to if the team had, if he had been healthy,
Speaker 1: to help them compete. That was clear when they were bad.
Speaker 1: So I'm with you, I mean, I he likes these guys.
Speaker 1: Randall Cobble was a really good player ten years ago,
Speaker 1: eight years ago, it's been a while. So And the
Speaker 1: other thing with Gronk they already had. He got to
Speaker 1: kind of rotate in and out, yes, and also helped
Speaker 1: teach everyone else the offense with Tom and kind of
Speaker 1: his quirks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's just it's interesting, is is Brady is always
Speaker 2: strategic and it felt like Aaron wanted to be comfortable.
Speaker 2: Tom wanted to be great. You know Tom's standard is
Speaker 2: Super Bowls. Tom still had that fire. Tom wanted to
Speaker 2: be great. You know, you wouldn't take Nat Hackett nobody.
Speaker 2: I don't think Aaron thinks he's great. I mean you
Speaker 2: watched Aaron Rodgers' reaction multiple times this season because the
Speaker 2: camera was always shake his head constantly, So like Aaron's
Speaker 2: no dummy, he knows. So it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's you know, I'll say this about like Lebron James.
Speaker 2: You know, Lebron James, he wanted Chris Bosh and Dwayne
Speaker 2: Wade and Kyrie and Kevin Love and Anthony Davis. You know,
Speaker 2: Lebron's got no loyalty. If you can't play, he'll bring
Speaker 2: his guys. But you know he'll bring clutch sports he'll
Speaker 2: bring so you know it. I think, you know, the
Speaker 2: great players not only are they strategic, but you've got
Speaker 2: to you've got to elevate them. Like Aaron brought over
Speaker 2: guys that I don't know if he drinks, but like
Speaker 2: it sounds like they were like drinking buddies or like
Speaker 2: like poker buddies it's like Aaron It's just you're going
Speaker 2: up against Buffalo Belichick's not good enough.
Speaker 1: Well, compare that, like how big that headline was last
Speaker 1: year Rogers to the Jets and the way everyone talked
Speaker 1: about it to now this year's version. It's not a
Speaker 1: it's not a quarterback, it's a coach. Hard bought of
Speaker 1: the Chargers. I didn't meet one person with at the combine.
Speaker 1: They didn't go They're gonna be good. It might this
Speaker 1: year might be a little bit of a transition. They
Speaker 1: got some cap stuff. We'll see how these next couple
Speaker 1: months play out. But even people like I bet they'll
Speaker 1: figure some of that out and they'll draft enough guys.
Speaker 1: They're a playoff team next year. No one. I mean
Speaker 1: they had eighteen guys at the combine. Eighteen. They had
Speaker 1: six offensive linemen. You can only play five at one time.
Speaker 1: This guy, I mean, he's the Chargers. That is a
Speaker 1: that's a team. And on the on the opposite side,
Speaker 1: and listen, I know you worked with him. I've never
Speaker 1: met him. I always when it comes to someone in
Speaker 1: football who supports you, and Antonio Pierce obviously as a player,
Speaker 1: was really good. Marvin Lewis really high level guy is
Speaker 1: his guy, and Tom Coughlin loves him. He's a good
Speaker 1: foot Antonio Piers is a good football guy. Being a
Speaker 1: head coach is a little different animal, and he's been
Speaker 1: talking a lot, like you do know you're going You
Speaker 1: got the big version of Andy Bill Walsh right now
Speaker 1: in Kansas City, and you got Jim Harbaugh who's been
Speaker 1: winning now for twenty plus years at every freaking level.
Speaker 1: And Sean Payton got paid ninety million dollars for a reason,
Speaker 1: like it's just it's gonna be very, very difficult. So
Speaker 1: you almost see most people I know think the Raiders
Speaker 1: are in trouble, not because they even think Antonio Pierce
Speaker 1: is like some idiot, it's just that's just gonna be difficult,
Speaker 1: and his natural reactions kind of a little more player
Speaker 1: talking a lot. It's not really how coaches operate. And
Speaker 1: then everyone's like thinks the Chargers are gonna just be
Speaker 1: good quick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's one of the things I've really
Speaker 2: come to terms with the NFL. There's a saying when
Speaker 2: you have kids, you don't have any yet, don't know
Speaker 2: if you plan to, But the saying, and it's really true,
Speaker 2: is the days are long, but the years fly by.
Speaker 2: You look up and your kids are like eighteen. My
Speaker 2: son had his eighteenth birthday the other day, and it
Speaker 2: feels like, you know, a few years ago, we were
Speaker 2: at Disneyland on rides, laughing or butt off. One of
Speaker 2: the things I think I've come to terms with is
Speaker 2: week to week, the NFL has surprises, but by the
Speaker 2: end of the year, it's the same seven to eight
Speaker 2: coaches and quarterbacks, and you know, week to week you're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I can't believe that team. You know,
Speaker 2: it's the owners are going to propose an eighteen game
Speaker 2: schedule here over the next calendar year.
Speaker 1: Many I don't think you propose. I think it's coming.
Speaker 2: So when you have eighteen weeks in the NFL, you're
Speaker 2: just gonna have guys beat up. Good teams are gonna
Speaker 2: have bad weeks. I mean the Chief scuffed. I mean,
Speaker 2: look at the look at the Niners. They got housed
Speaker 2: by the Ravens. I mean, it just didn't even show up.
Speaker 2: So I think the NFL is getting more predicted. I
Speaker 2: don't think it's a bad thing necessarily for ratings or
Speaker 2: consumer interest, but it's that salary cap going up just
Speaker 2: ensures they're really good teams. So what it ensures is
Speaker 2: the good teams can keep the guys they may have
Speaker 2: had to move, and the bad teams will overspend in
Speaker 2: the free agent market. That's the guarantee. Bad teams will overspend,
Speaker 2: good teams will smartly spend and retain good players. So
Speaker 2: I think I've already gone through kind of my predictions
Speaker 2: on the with all the coaching higher stuff. After free agency,
Speaker 2: I unless you know, Atlanta is the one team based
Speaker 2: on who they land at quarterback, I would significantly alter.
Speaker 2: I would have them win the division. If they got
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins, I could win the division.
Speaker 2: Outside of that, I feel like I'm taking Buffalo, Cincinnati, Baltimore,
Speaker 2: AFC South a little wonky, I'll take Kansas City Chargers.
Speaker 2: I think Washington's going to be the surprise team in
Speaker 2: the league. I'll take Dallas Washington, Philadelphia pulls back, I'll
Speaker 2: take Detroit, Green Bay, San Francisco Rams, And I'm totally
Speaker 2: comfortable with all that.
Speaker 1: I mean, so you basically have one or two swings,
Speaker 1: and that's how it basically is. So everyone talking worse
Speaker 1: from first, worse from first, it's not as it's usually
Speaker 1: an injury based that happens a lot when you have
Speaker 1: or a team with a lot of injuries. The Niners
Speaker 1: have been to the conference championship for the last five years.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, they lost half their team to injuries.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like the coach in the organization didn't know
Speaker 1: what happened. The Bengals missed the playoffs this year because
Speaker 1: their quarterback played like seven games. You know, this isn't
Speaker 1: a very complicated I'm telling you. It was eye opening
Speaker 1: at the combine talking to you, just Veach and Andy
Speaker 1: and I've known these guys forever that these organizations, like
Speaker 1: even Sean Payton, John Payton's really good. I'm a believer
Speaker 1: in them. They got some questions internally in the organization.
Speaker 1: I mean's sitting next to a guy when the camera
Speaker 1: goes to him, which is his new hire from personnel
Speaker 1: guy from the Saints. You know, is he forcing out?
Speaker 1: There's just a lot of moving parts as you're taking
Speaker 1: organ The Chiefs have none of that, The Rams have
Speaker 1: none of that. You replace a coach here in there.
Speaker 1: But like the organization, the way you look what you
Speaker 1: want in players, everything the Ravens. Everything's so streamlined. It's
Speaker 1: like Amazon. You know, there's no just question marks, it's
Speaker 1: just and some of these organizations are just trying to
Speaker 1: walk straight and chew gum at the same time.
Speaker 2: John Middlecoff, former NFL Scout three and out the volume.
Speaker 2: Good stuff. We wrapped up the combine. Next time we talk,
Speaker 2: it'll be more about quarterbacks moving. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: discussion about this. Stuff's going to happen very quickly, and
Speaker 2: it always comes out before March thirteenth, as always, Buddy,
Speaker 2: Good seeing.
Speaker 1: You, buckle up, Colin, see you soon.
Speaker 2: The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed
Speaker 2: the podcast, take a moment, rate and review