1
00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:02,400
Speaker 1: Oh God, here we go.

2
00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 2: Nonam tom thumb thumb thumb.

3
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:20,120
Speaker 3: Sweet yes, Sweet Daddy Grace, wool sweete, sweet yeah, Sweet

4
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:21,160
Speaker 3: Daddy Grace.

5
00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: Hey, ain't in a shame. That's his name.

6
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: It's not a shame, Daddy Grace. He comes in the morning,

7
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 2: comes afternoon, comes in the d to get this fool.

8
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 3: Sweet yeah, Sweet Daddy Grace.

9
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 2: Hallelu yak ain't his name, He's got a name, Sweete.

10
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,519
Speaker 4: That's the voice of a civil rights activist in legend

11
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,559
Speaker 4: who for many years has lived in my hometown of

12
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,200
Speaker 4: New Bedford, Massachusetts. You may know him by the name

13
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 4: he was given at his birth.

14
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,240
Speaker 2: My name is Jabriel Kazan, but my birth name is

15
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 2: Ezelanda Blair Junior.

16
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 5: As is is al Blair Junior.

17
00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 4: He was one of the four young black men known

18
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 4: as the Greensboro for who in nineteen sixty walked into

19
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 4: a Woolworths in the Jim Crow South and sat down

20
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,760
Speaker 4: at the lunch counter. Their sit in was a direct

21
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 4: action protest of the store's policy of segregation in North

22
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,319
Speaker 4: Carolina and more largely the Deep South. This sit in

23
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 4: is widely considered one of the mile markers of the

24
00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 4: movement for civil rights. I talked with Jabriel not only

25
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,759
Speaker 4: because of his legacy, but because of his own stories

26
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 4: about Daddy Grace.

27
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 2: Coreen. My mother was a country girl from southa the City,

28
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 2: North Carolina. Mom gradu from high school, came to Greensboro.

29
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 2: She live with a lady who attended Daddy Grace's church.

30
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 2: So my mom went to see Daddy Grace at the church.

31
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 2: So what was he like, Mama? She said, he was

32
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 2: a very handsome man, plus that he could dress himmacreately,

33
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,520
Speaker 2: three piece soup like he was God. Men hold him

34
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,799
Speaker 2: on his shoulders and took him in. Wow. And then

35
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,519
Speaker 2: she said, Then I walked in the church and gets

36
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:17,079
Speaker 2: what I saw?

37
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 1: What?

38
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 6: Mom?

39
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,919
Speaker 2: She said, five ten, twenty dollars bills on the floor

40
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,520
Speaker 2: and people were walking on to get the Daddy Grace step.

41
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,080
Speaker 5: I said, WHOA come talk to me?

42
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: Oh what?

43
00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 2: Thousands of dollars on that floor. And the people took

44
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,280
Speaker 2: off his shoes and walked down that aisle the way.

45
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 2: They took the money up and they put more money

46
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 2: in the basket. That's Daddy Grace.

47
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 4: But when other folks spoke about Daddy Grace and the

48
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 4: money he and his churches raked in they weren't always

49
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 4: so laudatory, so supportive. In fact, of all the things

50
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,040
Speaker 4: Daddy Grace was criticized for, the one that really seemed

51
00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,200
Speaker 4: to bother people, including money in my family, was his

52
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 4: and his church's relationship with money, because there appeared to

53
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,839
Speaker 4: be a lot of it, so much in fact, that

54
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 4: the church was able to purchase an expansive real estate empire,

55
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,240
Speaker 4: much of which they still hold on to today. In

56
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,720
Speaker 4: the nineteen forties and fifties, this was unheard of for

57
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,519
Speaker 4: most Black Americans, and although he was primarily a man

58
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 4: of God, I have to admit that what Daddy Grace

59
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 4: did with real estate has always impressed me.

60
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 5: Daddy Grace didn't.

61
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 4: Come to America to be poor. He came to spread

62
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 4: the word of God. It just so happened that he

63
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 4: also found the word of God paid very well. I'm

64
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 4: Marcy Depina and from iHeart Podcasts, Enforce and Media group.

65
00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 5: This is sweet Daddy Grace.

66
00:03:47,360 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 7: Glad to be happy.

67
00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 4: All right. So the parade is over and I am

68
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:47,080
Speaker 4: walking down the street. I am seeing that a lot

69
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:48,640
Speaker 4: of the people that were.

70
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 5: In the various bands are here. I am in Washington,

71
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:52,480
Speaker 5: d C.

72
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,640
Speaker 4: For the United House of prayers, annual Memorial Day celebration

73
00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 4: and parade. Making my way to the national head quarters,

74
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 4: the main.

75
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 5: Church to the faithful.

76
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 4: It's called God's White House. And it's not lost on

77
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 4: me that Daddy Grace chose the nation's capital for the

78
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 4: headquarters of the United House of Prayer.

79
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 5: Oh this church is she.

80
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,720
Speaker 4: Oh Wow, has a five pointed star at the top

81
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 4: a gold dome. This church is truly notable. It's a

82
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,200
Speaker 4: building meant to cause a sensation. It's monumental. It's an

83
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 4: impressive piece of real estate. Inside is home to an

84
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 4: extensive public archive of the United House of Prayer history.

85
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 4: There are countless photos of Daddy Grace, newspaper clippings, letters

86
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 4: he wrote to the congregation, preserved copies of Grace magazine.

87
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,039
Speaker 4: It's like a museum. But the other piece of real

88
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 4: estate I was struck by during my trip was right

89
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:03,520
Speaker 4: on Logan Circle, eleven Logan Circle to be exact. It's

90
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,039
Speaker 4: in the historically black Shaw neighborhood, which has been home

91
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 4: to many prominent Black attorneys, judges, architects, politicians, and musicians,

92
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 4: including Duke Ellington. Eleven Logan Circle is a majestic house

93
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,480
Speaker 4: boasting seven bedrooms and five bathrooms. It's currently estimated to

94
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 4: be worth three point five million dollars, and it too

95
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,719
Speaker 4: is owned by the United House of Prayer starting in

96
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 4: the nineteen thirties. It was where Daddy Gray stayed whenever

97
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 4: he was in town. I cannot describe the feeling of

98
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 4: pride that I felt when walking along with the parade,

99
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 4: we rounded the corner and I first saw the house.

100
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 4: The neighborhood is gentrified now and Daddy Grace's home is

101
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 4: one of the few black owned properties in the circle,

102
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 4: one of the last reminders of the prosperous black neighborhood

103
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,880
Speaker 4: that once was here. Smith the church opens it up

104
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,520
Speaker 4: to the public, they also know it something to show off.

105
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 4: Eleven Logan Circle would be an impressive property for anyone.

106
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 4: But here's the thing, both in Daddy Grace's time and

107
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 4: for the House of Prayer today, it's just one of

108
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 4: many real estate holdings, one parcel in a vast empire.

109
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 4: This was very much on purpose. Daddy Grace's vision for

110
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 4: his church was to make sure it could and would

111
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,960
Speaker 4: always keep growing, and he knew that meant money. Daddy

112
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 4: Grace deeply understood that one of the best ways to

113
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 4: build wealth in America was by owning real estate.

114
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 5: Alvicente, who was born in.

115
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 4: Kabovid and has also studied Daddy Grace, spoke directly to

116
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 4: this point.

117
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 1: He bought.

118
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 8: Huge complex in Manhattan that didn't rent the Negroes, and

119
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 8: he bought it through you know, channels at that time,

120
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 8: was one of the big purchases in Manhattan.

121
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 4: The fact that Daddie Grace was able to purchase properties

122
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 4: that would not even rent to black tenants, never mind

123
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 4: sell to them, was remarkable. He hired white real estate

124
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,480
Speaker 4: agents and attorneys to make the arrangements for him. This

125
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 4: sprawling business empire he built with church funds and donations.

126
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 4: It wasn't just here in America, it was also an

127
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 4: international empire of real estate.

128
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,199
Speaker 8: He had a coffee farm in Brazil and egg farm

129
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 8: in Cuba, so he was pretty dynamic. He was a bright,

130
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,719
Speaker 8: bright guy and an astute businessman.

131
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 4: This was all the more impressive when you consider the

132
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 4: world he was operating in a black man in the

133
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,079
Speaker 4: nineteen thirties, forties and fifties.

134
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 6: As a black person in America, he does not have

135
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,000
Speaker 6: the access to credit and capital that white people have.

136
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 4: Doctor Hassan Jeffries is an associate professor of history at

137
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 4: the Ohio State University, where he teaches courses on the

138
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 4: civil rights and Black power movements. He's also of cathe

139
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 4: Verdian descent.

140
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 1: He's not being given access to credit.

141
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 6: Line for the most part, mortgages are not really available,

142
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 6: and so a lot of what he's having to leverage

143
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 6: is just cash.

144
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:29,120
Speaker 1: Right.

145
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 6: So this is where so the cash coming in by

146
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:38,400
Speaker 6: the church becomes really important, because you're buying stuff outright, and.

147
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,360
Speaker 4: The properties Daddy Grace wanted to buy, they were often

148
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 4: expensive and big in wealthy areas.

149
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 1: And so how did a black person do that?

150
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 6: It wasn't enough just to have the money, right, You

151
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 6: then have to negotiate, and not one on one negotiate,

152
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,120
Speaker 6: I'm saying, negotiate the color line.

153
00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: In order to actually do.

154
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 6: The thing that allow you to purchase, you got to

155
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,720
Speaker 6: have some white bankers. You got to have some white

156
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 6: front people, right who were willing to do these negotiations

157
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 6: on your behalf.

158
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,200
Speaker 1: Because a lot of these not.

159
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 6: Just real estate brokers, but homeowners, business owners would not

160
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,679
Speaker 6: sell to an African American period the Rockefellers, they had

161
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 6: to worry about that, like if they had the money,

162
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 6: they just showed up. They got better deals than anybody else.

163
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,560
Speaker 6: Right because of the name. That doesn't hold for black folk,

164
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 6: that doesn't hold for Daddy Grays.

165
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,839
Speaker 4: But Daddy Grace seemed to thrive in this environment, buying

166
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 4: up the property of rivals like Father Divine and Harlem

167
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 4: and Prophet Jones in Detroit right from under them. He

168
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 4: bought a theater in Newark, mansions in New Bedford, Montclair Bridgeport,

169
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,600
Speaker 4: the sort of places that require staff to take care

170
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 4: of them, the sort of places where white neighbors complained

171
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 4: when they found out.

172
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,959
Speaker 5: Who the new owner was. And in nineteen.

173
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,439
Speaker 4: Fifty three he bought the crown jewel of his achievement,

174
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 4: the El Dorado, an Art Deco apartment building right on

175
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,079
Speaker 4: Central Park in New York City. At the time, it

176
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,920
Speaker 4: was called the tallest apartment building in the world, some

177
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,960
Speaker 4: thirty stories high with two pinnacled towers, It's an iconic

178
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 4: structure part of the backdrop of the park. Daddy Grace

179
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,679
Speaker 4: claimed it was one of the largest real estate transactions

180
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 4: of its kind on record. The El Dorado had thirteen

181
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 4: manual elevators and a lobby full of murals statues and

182
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:41,200
Speaker 4: fourteen carrot gold decorations. It housed more than two hundred apartments,

183
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 4: and as Daddy Grace well knew, all of his renters

184
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 4: were white. As he told the press, the income from

185
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 4: the property would be used as an investment for the

186
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 4: betterment and welfare of his congregation. Daddy Grace knew how

187
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 4: to take care of his people, and the congregation was

188
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 4: proud their church. Daddy Grace's church owned one of the

189
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 4: grandest buildings in one of the most famous cities in

190
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 4: the world. It was such a point of pride that

191
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 4: many of the United House of Prayer churches, not just

192
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,119
Speaker 4: in New York but around the country, had framed photos

193
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 4: of the El Dorado at the altar right next to

194
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 4: the picture of Daddy Grace himself. Daddy Grace seemed to

195
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 4: be untouched by the cold hand of faith by economic ruin.

196
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,920
Speaker 4: He and his church endured. If anything, they prospered. But

197
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 4: although preachers like Daddy Grace seemed to be getting rich,

198
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 4: much of their congregations were just trying to hold.

199
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 5: On to what they had.

200
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,960
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, Daddy Grace wore fancy suits, custom hats, and expensive jewelry.

201
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,680
Speaker 4: He drove or had others drive him around in a

202
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 4: brand new car. In Daddy Grace's view, the Bible clearly

203
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 4: says that the riches of the Kingdom of Heaven should

204
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,480
Speaker 4: be found on earth too. But it wasn't just that

205
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,800
Speaker 4: he was rich and lived well. There was also much

206
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 4: talk about the spectacles of money to be seen inside

207
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,600
Speaker 4: the church. For instance, the dollar bills all stacked up

208
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 4: in the shape of a house or a full size

209
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 4: money well that his follower's bill and presented to Bishop

210
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,400
Speaker 4: Grace as a love offering when he was in town.

211
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 4: None of this was ever mentioned in the Bible. Yet

212
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 4: there was Daddy Grace telling his faithful congregants during services

213
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 4: that he didn't want to hear the sound of jingling

214
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 4: coins being dropped into the donation basket. He wanted to

215
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 4: hear the sound of paper. People outside the church would

216
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,280
Speaker 4: sometimes ask Daddy Grace about this, about the money they

217
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 4: figured that he had. He said personally that he didn't

218
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 4: care about money, that he only had a small salary

219
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,240
Speaker 4: or none at all. It was enough of a sticking

220
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,040
Speaker 4: point that he'd even sometimes address it in his sermons.

221
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 4: How he wasn't there because of any financial incentive.

222
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 9: I'm the only poor man going and charge these people

223
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 9: a dying I ask him, man, see why chide, I'm

224
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 9: gonna die?

225
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,320
Speaker 4: And he repeated over and over that the money collected

226
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,480
Speaker 4: from the congregation belonged to the United House of Prayer, which,

227
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 4: of course was technically true, And it was equally true

228
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,480
Speaker 4: that as the head of the church, under the church's bylaws,

229
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:46,320
Speaker 4: the bishop was given funds for personal use, funds for travel, food, housing, clothing,

230
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 4: and servants. All of that to say, Daddy Grace's lavish

231
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 4: lifestyle was all above board, But was it out of line?

232
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,920
Speaker 4: There is a cultural discription and that needs to be clarified.

233
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 4: For many people of faith in America, it might seem

234
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 4: obscene for a religious leader to spend church funds on

235
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 4: a luxurious lifestyle. Many Christians would not recognize a holy

236
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 4: expression in Daddy Grace's chauffeured cars and expensive manicures, But

237
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 4: among the faithful in Black America, this isn't always the case.

238
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 4: We often expect our religious leaders.

239
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 5: To be doing well.

240
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 4: If anything, it was a sign of God's blessing to

241
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 4: speak to this truth of life in the black faith communities.

242
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 4: I spoke with someone who knows the criticisms and the rationale.

243
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,840
Speaker 4: Bishop Talbert Swan.

244
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 1: The preacher is often caught in a catch twenty two.

245
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 10: If the preacher is lacking in resources and destitute, it

246
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 10: has to seek help himself to support his own life

247
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 10: style in his family. Then he's mocked and the question

248
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 10: is asked, what kind of God do you serve when

249
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 10: you can't even take care of yourself.

250
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 4: Bishop Swan is the prelate and the Bishop of the

251
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 4: Church of God in Christ in Springfield, Massachusetts. He's also

252
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 4: an activist, an author, and the president of the local

253
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 4: NAACP chapter. His own style is more understated, but he

254
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 4: recognized the internal dilemma a man like Bishop Grace might

255
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 4: have faced the ways Daddy Grace made much of his

256
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 4: money often rubbed people the wrong way. He had a

257
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 4: whole product line blessed by his touch and bearing his

258
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 4: name Daddy Grace, soap, Daddy Greces, toothpaste, hair creams, face powder,

259
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 4: and cookies, emblems, badges, buttons, banners. This capitalistic promotion of

260
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 4: himself for a lot of people didn't seem right. For

261
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 4: a man of God, it seemed the opposite. But it's

262
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 4: important here to recall Daddy Grace's Catholic roots the Catholic

263
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:12,760
Speaker 4: Church has stacked cash for centuries, growing rich by selling rosaries, handkerchiefs.

264
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 5: Photos of the Pope, statues.

265
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,480
Speaker 4: Of saints, any and all blessed by the Pope, and

266
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,200
Speaker 4: for sale in the gift shops and at the Vatican.

267
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 4: So I can see the criticisms of Daddy Grace. I

268
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 4: see how he presented himself. I understand how his way

269
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 4: could be offensive to someone. But I also see someone

270
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 4: who was attempting to create a lifestyle really an entire

271
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 4: faith based ecosystem, one that operated pretty similarly to the

272
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,439
Speaker 4: Catholic Church, with the same kind of money.

273
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 5: And so for Daddy.

274
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 4: Grace, just like for the Pope, if you asked him,

275
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 4: there was no doubt he was a man of God

276
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 4: and just speaking to our modern moment, Daddy Grace should

277
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 4: rightly be considered one of the forefathers of contemporary megachurches,

278
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 4: the religious movement best exemplified by Bishop td Jakes craftlow Dollar,

279
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 4: and Joel Ostein these prosperity gospel evangelists have all built

280
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 4: large followings as well as political power and of course,

281
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,240
Speaker 4: multimillion dollar business verticals. While Bishop Swan isn't part of

282
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 4: this group of prosperity Gospel ministers. He understands why Daddy

283
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 4: Grace may have chosen this path.

284
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,120
Speaker 10: He was the prosperity preacher before it was such a thing.

285
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 10: And I believe that the preacher ought to be an

286
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,680
Speaker 10: example of what they're preaching to the people. So if

287
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,159
Speaker 10: I'm telling you that you need to get into a

288
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 10: position where you're debt free, or you need to conduct

289
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 10: your life in such a way that you can secure

290
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 10: a future for your family and pass on generational wealth,

291
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 10: well I've got to be the first example of that.

292
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 10: And for some reason, folks think that the preacher should

293
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 10: teach those things, but then not be the example of

294
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 10: those things that he or she teaches.

295
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 4: It's inarguably true that sweet Daddy Grace didn't mind a

296
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 4: little bit of flash or a flare of style, and yes,

297
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 4: he certainly had that swagger and bravado. He clearly took

298
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 4: great care in terms of how he presented himself to

299
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 4: the world and to his congregants. But what also made

300
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 4: him special was the little things that set him apart

301
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 4: from his followers. Like he insisted that no one in

302
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 4: the church could grow fingernails as long as his or

303
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 4: there were the big things that set him apart, like

304
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 4: the boasts that he spoke twenty eight languages, or his

305
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 4: far more incredible boasts like that he alone ended World

306
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 4: War Two. You have to understand Daddy Grace had to

307
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,479
Speaker 4: constantly contend and combat how other people, especially the press,

308
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 4: doubted him. The press, when they did write about him,

309
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 4: would often put his title bishop and quote, or would

310
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 4: focus far more on the money he raised than and

311
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 4: what he actually preached from the pulpit. Even Ebony Magazine

312
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 4: was guilty of this mistreatment. The magazine made for black readers,

313
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 4: It too, seemed to believe some of the rumors. In

314
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 4: one article, the journalist wrote that Grace is not his

315
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 4: real name, but serves a symbolic purpose. This is something

316
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 4: that was said a lot about Daddy Grace, that he

317
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 4: made up the name to sound more legit, but it

318
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 4: just wasn't true. Grace was the Anglicized version of Daddy

319
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 4: Grace's cap Verdian birth name, the Grassa. It was also

320
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 4: the name he'd been using way before he started his church.

321
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 4: But the notion that he'd changed his name to sound

322
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 4: more godly it definitely helped perpetuate the myth that Daddy

323
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 4: Grace was a con man or worse.

324
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 5: A joke.

325
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 6: It is not a surprise nor a coincidence that we're

326
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 6: talking about the depression era, and the depression doesn't begin

327
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 6: just in early thirties people African Americans.

328
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: We see it through the twenties and lasting through the

329
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: nineteen forties.

330
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 5: That's Professor Jeffries again.

331
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 6: And so people are searching for something and they're finding

332
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 6: a bit of salvation here on earth. But for white

333
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 6: people to look at that, that's particularly troubling. If white

334
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 6: people can dismiss Daddy Grace, if they can dismiss him

335
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 6: as a charlatan, then they can dismiss all of the

336
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 6: other things that he's actually doing. When we think about

337
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 6: the big personalities with large followings during the first couple

338
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 6: of decades of the twentieth century, you know, I think

339
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 6: we have to put it into the sort of broader

340
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 6: context of the power of performance, the power of the

341
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 6: big ego.

342
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 4: This is something far more common now. We almost expect

343
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 4: the big ego to be highly visible and the sccessful

344
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 4: black man. In that era, you most certainly had to

345
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 4: have a big ego, and you had to put it

346
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 4: on display where it could cost you your life or

347
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 4: at the very least your livelihood.

348
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we saw the same thing with Marcus Garvey. Right.

349
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 6: If you can convince people not to take the person

350
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 6: who is speaking seriously, then you can dismiss the people

351
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 6: who'll find resonance in the message that is being offered.

352
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 4: Marcus Garvey, the Jamaican immigrant and political activists, advocated for

353
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 4: black self determination and unity between the African diaspora and Africa.

354
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 4: He championed ideas like Black pride and Black nationalism, and

355
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 4: like Daddy Grace, he was also charismatic and a polarizing figure.

356
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 4: But not everyone, including those in his own community, approved

357
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 4: of his approach and his focus on the needs of

358
00:22:58,680 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 4: the everyday black.

359
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 6: And yet Garvey says, the people need it, the people

360
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 6: need the celebration, and there's something to be said when

361
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 6: we go back to the history of enslaved folk having parades, right,

362
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 6: having these ceremonial elections, right, which of course draw on

363
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 6: West African traditions. I think we're too quick sometimes to say,

364
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 6: oh that this was just a play the ego, Like no,

365
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 6: I mean, there was a value and understanding of the

366
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 6: power of this kind of performative rhetoric and performative action

367
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 6: in the service of religion and community building. That wasn't

368
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 6: just oh, you know, I'm playing a role. This is

369
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 6: a way of communication that is resonating because my people.

370
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: See the value in this.

371
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 6: Especially, I would add at a time when black folk

372
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 6: people of color are told to be seen and not

373
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 6: her having a.

374
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 4: Big ego, it was an act of strength and rebellion.

375
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 6: The louder you were, the more attention you drew, the

376
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 6: more danger you drew. Because the most dangerous place to

377
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 6: be for a person of color was in the presence

378
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 6: of white people. So we are conditioning ourselves and our

379
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 6: children to survive, to be silent, to be unseen. And

380
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 6: here you have somebody who was standing up like.

381
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: No, you are going to see me.

382
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 6: And by people, that is an attraction in and of

383
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 6: itself because they're like, boy, that's daring, that's bold, that's

384
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 6: the vine, and that's what we like because we don't

385
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 6: get enough of it.

386
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 4: The thing is, despite all this controversy surrounding him, theologically,

387
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 4: the United House of Prayer fit pretty soundly into other

388
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 4: Black Pentecostal and Apostolic churches, and Daddy Grace knew his

389
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: Bible as well as any preacher, maybe even better. Those

390
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: long fingernails he had, he said it was proof that

391
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 4: he he was a prophet, referencing an obscure Bible verse

392
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 4: about a prophet with horns growing.

393
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 5: Out of his hands.

394
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 4: And the name of his church was taken directly from

395
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 4: Isaiah fifty six to seven, from my house shall be

396
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 4: called a house of.

397
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 5: Prayer for all peoples.

398
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 4: He impressed people by how often he quoted scripture verbatim,

399
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 4: But maybe even more impressive were the connections he fostered

400
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 4: within his church. As is common in the Black faith communities,

401
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 4: Daddy Grace supplied his congregants a way to be fully

402
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 4: immersed in church life. For many House of Prayer members,

403
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 4: the church became the central part of their spiritual and

404
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 4: social lives. The services which are held every day are

405
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 4: lively and full of music, especially shout music. The call

406
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 4: and response with the repetitive sounds enraptured the congregants. They

407
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 4: spoke in tongs filled by the Holy Ghost. And there

408
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 4: were and are still to this day, various clubs for

409
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 4: different interests for all different ages, band choir, literature, banking,

410
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: junior nurses, scouts, and there were also rewards in the

411
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: form of cash, titles and positions. It was a major

412
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: privilege to be a Graceguard, Grace Queen, or a Grace

413
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 4: made personal attendance for Daddy Grace when he came to town.

414
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: All of this was intentionally designed to keep House of

415
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 4: Prayer members fully submerged in a life where God was

416
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: at the center and the forefront. But more than that,

417
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: it was a reminder of their own importance to God,

418
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 4: a message they often didn't receive outside of the church.

419
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 10: The first Black denomination was founded as a result of

420
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 10: the inability of white folks to accept our full humanity.

421
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 4: As Bishop Swan can speak to and knows well, Black churches,

422
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: including the United House of Prayer, have always been both

423
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 4: foundations and load bearing pillars of their communities.

424
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 10: They have provided services in black communities. They have spoken

425
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 10: on behalf of black people, and done all of this

426
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 10: with only the support of their congregates. We're not talking

427
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 10: about endowments, We're not talking about grants and loans.

428
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: We're talking about.

429
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 10: Chicken dinners and tag sales and people giving to support

430
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 10: the minister, to support the church.

431
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: In short, the Black Church gave people opportunities that they

432
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 4: weren't allowed to have outside in the wider world.

433
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 10: Black people as we are today wouldn't be where we

434
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 10: are today without the Black Church. The Black Church honed

435
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 10: our leadership, trained our leaders. You could be the janitor

436
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 10: somewhere in the world with the head of the trustee

437
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 10: board in the church. You could be without a job

438
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 10: in the world with the head of the deacon board

439
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 10: in the church. And so our churches helped our people

440
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 10: see their own self worth. It was the one stop

441
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 10: plaza for everything.

442
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 4: By nineteen forty nine, the United House of Prayer claimed

443
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 4: to have two million members. This may or may not

444
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 4: have been an inflated count, but regardless of the numbers,

445
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 4: the church served the needs of its followers, people who

446
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 4: were only too happy to tithe and to contribute their

447
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: time and efforts to something that was so meaningful to

448
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 4: them and their community. They gave to the House of Prayer,

449
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: and as far as they were concerned, the House of

450
00:28:51,960 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 4: Prayer it gave back. After World War Two ended, America

451
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 4: began to imagine its place in the world and to

452
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: adjust its domestic agenda, its balances of power, its traditions

453
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: of exclusion. As the United States grew and changed, so

454
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 4: did the world of black Americans. In the post war period,

455
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: black gis returned home having seen how others might treat

456
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 4: and respect them as full human beings, and they returned

457
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 4: home trained by the armed services in terms of how

458
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 4: to fight a war against racial intolerance.

459
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 5: They brought that fight back.

460
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: Home to America and began a new era in the

461
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 4: fight for civil rights. Daddy Grace was not at the

462
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 4: center of that fight, nor involved in any public way

463
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 4: at least, but Professor Jeffrey says that really that wasn't unusual.

464
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 4: Not everyone is a Malcolm or a Martin.

465
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 6: I think we have an outst understanding of what the

466
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 6: black church was in the civil rights movement.

467
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: The vast majority of churches never took part in civil

468
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: rights actions period.

469
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 6: It's like the vast majority of black people never took

470
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 6: part in civil rights protests, civil rights demonstration, civil rights actions. Now,

471
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 6: to be sure, the church space becomes very important to

472
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 6: civil rights organizing. Right, the beedifics itself becomes important because

473
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 6: it's one of the few spaces that black people had.

474
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: Autonomous control over.

475
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 6: Right, but in all of these local communities where we

476
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 6: see movements emerging, you might have one hundred churches and

477
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 6: four opened their doors. And so in a way, the

478
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 6: fact that you know, Daddy Grace is not a frontline

479
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 6: activist as a member of the clergy, it's actually not

480
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 6: that surprising.

481
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 4: Especially after death, this perceived in action has been for

482
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 4: some people a mark against Daddy Grace.

483
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 6: I mean, the criticism comes because they're like, oh, man,

484
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 6: if you're this powerful with access to these many resources,

485
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 6: could you and should you be doing more?

486
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: Like that's a separate question.

487
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 6: I think then, you know, should you be doing more

488
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 6: as a preacher, because in a sense it's kind of.

489
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: Along the lines of where most were. King was an exception.

490
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 6: Yet we look back and we say, oh, everybody, all

491
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 6: the preachers were like King, No.

492
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: They weren't right. They were like, look, we're not getting

493
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: involved in this message.

494
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 6: Y'all gonna burn down my sanctuary, right, y'all are gonna

495
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 6: come after me. I ain't dealing with that. And so

496
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 6: it really was the rare few. But you know, we

497
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 6: look back now, it's like, oh, you should have been

498
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 6: in it.

499
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 4: This is always important when assessing history to measure the

500
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 4: people against the standards of their time, not ours.

501
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 6: I think we have to we just have to look

502
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 6: at the universe of possible actions, rather than just saying, oh, well,

503
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 6: you weren't with.

504
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: King and Selma, so therefore you had nothing. You did

505
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: nothing at all.

506
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 4: I don't think it's in either or, and ask doctor

507
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 4: Jeffries points out this same calculation was made by another

508
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 4: prominent religious leader of the day.

509
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 6: You know, we see a very similar and perhaps even

510
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 6: more extreme decision being made by Elijah Muhammad and the

511
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 6: Nation of Islam. We think about the Nation of Islam,

512
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 6: which gives us Malcolm X as being sort of these

513
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 6: radical activists. Well, the Nation of Islam, as a small

514
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 6: group in the late nineteen thirties nineteen forties are conscientious

515
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 6: objectives to World War Two, and Elijah Muhammad and others

516
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 6: go to jail and the Nation of Islam almost implodes.

517
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 6: And so when Elijah Muhammad comes out, he says, we're

518
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 6: never doing that again, and so they stay on the sideline.

519
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 6: I mean, part of his rip with Malcolm X in

520
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 6: the mid nineteen sixties is that Malcolm wants to get

521
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 6: involved in civil rights. Elijah Muhammad was like, we took

522
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 6: too much heat in the past. We're not going to

523
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 6: deal with that in the present. In order to preserve

524
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 6: what had been built. It was just too much of

525
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 6: a risk to take that heat by being front.

526
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: And center in a particular way.

527
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: As we wrapped up our conversation, I was thinking about

528
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: Daddy Grace's legacy, what he meant to not only his

529
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: congregation but to Black America.

530
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: I think Daddy Grace's principal legacy.

531
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 6: Was about institution building, about you have to build something

532
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 6: more than that which you just enjoy for yourself. And

533
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 6: so he had a very expansive understanding, I think, of

534
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 6: what needed to be done to create security for people.

535
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 6: And he also, I mean, he was living in a

536
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 6: capitalist society and he understood that. He made so the

537
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 6: surveying the land, It's like, okay, what do we have

538
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 6: here and how does this work?

539
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: Right?

540
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 6: And then he said, oh, I get it. It's all

541
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 6: about acquiring assets. And he did that in order to

542
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 6: insulate the organization that he was building that really was

543
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 6: committed to Some might dismiss as utopian, but really was

544
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 6: committed to building a better society for people. And I

545
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 6: think there's real value in that for us today.

546
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 4: Alphacente said something that struck me too, self.

547
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 11: Help, building from within, creating generational wealth, and your self

548
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 11: from age and say, hey, you can have here as

549
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 11: beautiful as mind. If you use Daddy Grace from you

550
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 11: can have the best coffee in the world if you

551
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 11: buy Daddy Grace coffee.

552
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: You know, stuff like that.

553
00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 11: But he he's learned from what I gathered from Walker,

554
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 11: where people were given some of his products and they

555
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 11: sold it and got some of the proceeds from it

556
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 11: so that they can build up themselves. But he had

557
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 11: Senior Citizens Center where he said people, daycare center. All

558
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 11: were involved in his churches because he believed in promoting

559
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 11: self help.

560
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: So I think that's that's the biggest part of his legacy.

561
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 4: I tend to agree with Alvicente and doctor Jeffries, people

562
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 4: who've studied Daddy Grace and understand what he was up

563
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,959
Speaker 4: against and what he accomplished. But I can see why

564
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 4: his behavior could rub members of my family the wrong way.

565
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: Keith Verdians as a general rule, are humble, they're conservative

566
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 4: and have always done their best to stay under the

567
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: radar to protect themselves and their families. Particularly with my

568
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: family being associated with a man like sweet Daddy Grace

569
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 4: who was not not only highly visible, extremely controversial and

570
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 4: had multiple run ins with the law, it felt dangerous.

571
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 4: We can't forget that Cape Verdians in America were foreigners,

572
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: African immigrants who always ran the risk of being on

573
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 4: the receiving end of racism or being deported back to

574
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: a life of abject poverty and famine. My folks were

575
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 4: just trying to make a life for themselves and being

576
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 4: caught up with the wrong people or situations could completely

577
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 4: derail their lives and the lives of their families. But

578
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 4: it wasn't only my relatives that thought that Daddy Grace

579
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 4: was dangerous. The US government did too, and so Uncle

580
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: Sam tried to have him stopped. That's next time. Sweet

581
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 4: Daddy Grace is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Force,

582
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 4: a media group. This show is hosted by Me Marcy

583
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 4: de Pina and produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our

584
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 4: story editors are Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedell, and Zarren Burnett. Editing,

585
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: sound design and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing

586
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: by Matt Russell. Show cover art by Viviana Salgado of

587
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 4: Studio Creative Group. Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive

588
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 4: producers are Marcy Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to

589
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 4: Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore, Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu

590
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 4: Phillip of iHeartMedia, and all of my family members who

591
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 4: talked to me for this show, my ancestors, the United

592
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 4: House of Prayer for All People, and the countless number

593
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 4: of people who shared their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace

594
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 4: with me. Thanks also to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor

595
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 4: Danielle brun Sigler, whose academic work on Sweet Dayaddy Grace

596
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 4: has been incredibly helpful. And finally, I want to thank

597
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 4: Bishop Grace himself for choosing me to tell his story.

598
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 4: For more information on Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out

599
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 4: the website Sweet Daddy Grace and follow me at Marcy

600
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 4: Depina on all social platforms