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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to

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Speaker 1: works not come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about Ronda

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Speaker 1: Rowdy Rowsey. That's right. She's so rowdy, so rowdy. Everyone

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Speaker 1: has been talking about her. And I did not follow

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Speaker 1: m m A Mixed Martial Arts really at all. I still,

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Speaker 1: honestly I don't get how, but you can't not pay

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Speaker 1: attention to rowdy Ronda. Well, I I had managed to

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Speaker 1: still not really pay attention to rowdy Ronda. Um. I

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Speaker 1: also don't follow any sort of fights. Dude roommates when

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Speaker 1: we lived together, was always shelling out big bucks to

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Speaker 1: watch m m A and UFC fights on pay per view. Um,

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Speaker 1: the dudes fighting, not not Ronda Rowsy. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: know that he, for one, is definitely impressed at her prowess.

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Speaker 1: You can't not be impressed by her. And speaking of

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Speaker 1: pay per view, he might have been a little frustrated

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Speaker 1: had he bought her history making fight with Cat Singano

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Speaker 1: when she knocked her out, Well, I guess it's not

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Speaker 1: technically like a knockout, but Zingano tapped out, basically surrendering

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Speaker 1: after only fourteen seconds. I watched the fight Caroline, and

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Speaker 1: then I watched it again because it happened so quickly

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Speaker 1: you didn't even see it. But she Rhonda Rousy ended

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Speaker 1: the fight with her classic armbar move, where she essentially

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Speaker 1: gets you pinned down and moves her thigh in such

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Speaker 1: a way that if you move your arms, she'll like

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Speaker 1: dislocate your elbow. That sounds like the worst. Well, of

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Speaker 1: course it's the worst, because you gotta win. Feel like, kids,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting lighthooded just thinking about the well, you would

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Speaker 1: not last a minute. Well, honestly, all she would have

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Speaker 1: to do is like do a fate coming at me

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Speaker 1: move and I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll stop.

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Speaker 1: What was I doing? Why am I here? What am

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Speaker 1: I doing in this scenario? Yeah? I heard part of

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Speaker 1: um Howard Stern interview with with Rousing and he was

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Speaker 1: asking her. He said, you know you're so dominant, You're

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Speaker 1: dominant in the sport, you dominate your fights. What does

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Speaker 1: that mean? Does it mean you just win really well

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Speaker 1: and effectively and fast? And she's like, yeah, I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because that's that pretty much sums it up.

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Speaker 1: She is incredibly fast. Yeah, she's super fast, and she

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Speaker 1: is super dominant. I mean, she dominates the UFC bantam

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Speaker 1: weight division, and she's won all twelve of her fights

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Speaker 1: under that banner. Uh and I think she's won eleven

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Speaker 1: out of twelve in the first round. So I mean

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Speaker 1: it's almost like her competitors don't stand a chance. People

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Speaker 1: have started actually booing her at fights because they want

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Speaker 1: to see her lose, so neither of us. We've fested

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Speaker 1: up our hardcore m m A fans shocking m m A. Honestly, like,

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Speaker 1: it's hard for me to watch those matches because I

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Speaker 1: don't enjoy watching people beat each other up now. But honestly, though,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it just looks like they're hugging on the ground. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does get huggy and they're like, oh, that's cute,

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Speaker 1: But then you realize how much it probably smells in

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Speaker 1: that hug. Oh it's so flippery. A lot of pheromones happening.

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Speaker 1: So why, though, are we devoting an entire podcast to

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Speaker 1: Ronda Rowsey? Well, I mean, if she come as no

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Speaker 1: surprise that she is an interesting character. I mean, she's

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Speaker 1: a woman in I mean, I think it's an understatement

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Speaker 1: to say that it's a male dominated sport. UM. She's

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Speaker 1: also incredibly Like we said, she's dominant, she's super athletic,

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Speaker 1: she's accomplished, she's determined. UM people have called her an inspiration,

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Speaker 1: they've hailed her as a feminist, but she's also been

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Speaker 1: in the news for a lot of trash talking, both

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Speaker 1: against opponents, against big names in men's boxing and wrestling

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Speaker 1: and UFC. But she's also had really not some nice

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Speaker 1: things to say about the trans community. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's worth talking about her because, yes, being this

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Speaker 1: woman who has made women's m m A and the

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Speaker 1: UFC fights even possible, but someone who stardom really skyrocketed

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Speaker 1: in the mainstream this year when she was awarded an

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Speaker 1: s V for Best Fighter when she beat out Floyd Mayweather,

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Speaker 1: who was a boxer who also has a history of

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Speaker 1: domestic violence against UM former partners. And she used that

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Speaker 1: when to call him out on that, but it was

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Speaker 1: also a jab at him for having previously mentioned in

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Speaker 1: an interview that he had no idea who she was, well,

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Speaker 1: he didn't exactly say that. This was back in July,

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Speaker 1: Mayweather was asked whether he would fight Ronda Rousy and

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Speaker 1: he said, I don't even know who he is. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so playing a little bit dumb. And so after Rondo

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Speaker 1: won that sp award, um, she said, I can't help

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Speaker 1: but really say, I wonder how Floyd feels being beaten

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Speaker 1: by a woman for once. I'd like to see him

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Speaker 1: pretend not to know who I am now. And it

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Speaker 1: was really with that quote that she was launched into

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Speaker 1: the mainstream. I mean, people have been talking about her

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Speaker 1: for a while, but suddenly she was on every lady

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Speaker 1: blog that I read, and that's how she came on

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Speaker 1: my radar. But who is she aside from an sp winning,

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Speaker 1: smack talking, fierce mm A fighter. Yeah, well, briefly, she

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Speaker 1: is a former judo player and Olympic medalist turned m

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Speaker 1: m A fighter. She actually signed with UFC, which is

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Speaker 1: Ultimate Fighting Championship, m m a's biggest promoter in case

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Speaker 1: you didn't know back in and she like we said,

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Speaker 1: it's currently the UFC bantam Weight Champion of the World.

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Speaker 1: But you also might know her from rolls in Fast

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Speaker 1: and Fear Is seven, The Expendables three, and the Entourage movie.

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Speaker 1: Definitely The Expendables three and I was in line for that.

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Speaker 1: I have that on DVD, Blu ray and VHS Caroline,

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Speaker 1: it's just gonna say, but do you have it on tape? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so she's kind of following Gina Karana, who's a

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Speaker 1: fellow m m A fighter. She's kind of following Gina

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Speaker 1: Karana's example there in terms of transitioning from fighting over

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Speaker 1: to uh movies. And I wonder though, if it's related,

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Speaker 1: because she just announced that now at twenty eight, she

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Speaker 1: just announced that she'll probably be retiring in the next

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Speaker 1: three or four years because she is so dominant and

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Speaker 1: now that she's getting some movie roles. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: she's like, well, I can just transition and not you know,

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Speaker 1: dominate these women anymore. Yeah. I mean, she's talked about

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Speaker 1: how she really enjoys acting and being in action films

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Speaker 1: and also doing her own stunts, So that seems like

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Speaker 1: something that's super appealing to her and will probably make

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Speaker 1: her a lot more money than being a female mm

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Speaker 1: A fighter. Even though she's the best female fighter out there,

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Speaker 1: the money still isn't as big as what Hollywood would

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Speaker 1: offer her. Yeah. Absolutely, And it's also not surprising considering

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Speaker 1: how just in the past few months, I really ever

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Speaker 1: since the SPS, she has become this almost every woman's heroine.

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Speaker 1: I mean very quickly. She was escalated from oh this

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Speaker 1: mm a fighter, too feminist heroine. Yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people do love her, um, just for her personality, beyond

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Speaker 1: just the fighting and beyond being an amazing athlete. People

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Speaker 1: just love her as a person. Hillary Weaver over at Bustle,

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Speaker 1: for instance, hailed Rousy for calling the shots, saying what's

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Speaker 1: in her mind, just being open about her fears. In

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Speaker 1: addition to being at the top of her game and

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Speaker 1: the fact that Rousy is very vocal about things like

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Speaker 1: body image, eating disorders, and self esteem. Weaver quotes Rowsies saying,

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Speaker 1: when I was in school, martial arts made you adore

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Speaker 1: and I became self conscious that I was too masculine.

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Speaker 1: I was a sixteen year old girl with ringworm and

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Speaker 1: cauliflower ears. People made fun of my arms and called

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Speaker 1: me miss man. It wasn't until I got older that

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Speaker 1: I realized these people are idiots. I'm fabulous. So how

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Speaker 1: could you not love her? Some incredible athlete who's preaching

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Speaker 1: about body acceptance, self acceptance, self esteem. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: seems like a great role model, and Rowsey has been

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Speaker 1: pretty quotable. UM in her career. There was one quote

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Speaker 1: especially that jumped out not only to a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks on the internet, but also Beyonce Cardinals Um. She

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Speaker 1: used this quote like up on screen um during her

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Speaker 1: most recent performance, and it's probably rouseys most famous quote

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Speaker 1: at this point that she uh said in a ufc

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Speaker 1: vlog in July. And it's all about being a quote

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Speaker 1: do nothing bit, that's right. So this quote actually resonated

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people, obviously including Beyonce, who projected

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Speaker 1: it at the Maid in America festival. Um. So, Rolesy says,

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Speaker 1: I have one term for the kind of woman that

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Speaker 1: my mother raised me not to be. And of course

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about Rolesy's mother. It's a little bit more later,

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Speaker 1: she says, and I call it a do nothing bitch,

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Speaker 1: a kind of chick that just tries to be pretty

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Speaker 1: and be taken care of by somebody else. That's why

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Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious from people say my body looks

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Speaker 1: masculine or something like that. Listen, just because my body

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Speaker 1: was developed for a purpose other than bleeping millionaires doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean it's masculine. I think it's femininely badass as bleep

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Speaker 1: because there's not a single muscle in my body that

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Speaker 1: isn't for a purpose, because I'm not a do nothing bitch.

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Speaker 1: And so this quote was hailed by a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: especially in the feminist blog sphere, as being empowering. Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, she's encouraging women to go out there and

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Speaker 1: accept themselves and be active and be proud of their bodies,

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Speaker 1: their athletic bodies that might look different from the model

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Speaker 1: bo das you see in magazines. But other people, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a mixed bag. Other people definitely took issue with

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Speaker 1: her sort of perceived finger pointing at a name calling

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Speaker 1: it other women, you mean, feminists and universally agree on

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Speaker 1: what a celebrity said. Oh my god, I shocking. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: A lot of Vaganos writing over at huff Post said

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Speaker 1: it left the feminist in me quietly cringing, which is

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Speaker 1: not surprising because there is the woman shamy element of it,

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Speaker 1: where it's categorizing her as really not like other girls.

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Speaker 1: She's not one of those do nothing bitches. Um. So

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Speaker 1: you can see how that could seem feminist that it's

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Speaker 1: on its face, but have an underbelly of misogyny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I did wonder about that. A lot of

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Speaker 1: her comments and we'll get into some more of the

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Speaker 1: not so nice comments in a second, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of her comments seem to reflect a sort of I

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Speaker 1: feel maybe an internal lot I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: internal as misogyny, but an internalized, uh distaste at the

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Speaker 1: very least for certain types of women, whether those are

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Speaker 1: helpless women that she she feels, you know, are just

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Speaker 1: relying on other people or not lifting a finger like

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Speaker 1: those d n b s. But Vaganas that Kristen de cited,

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Speaker 1: was really worried that rond Arousy was like pointing it Housewives.

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Speaker 1: She's like, well, why are we judging women for for

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Speaker 1: not wanting to do things? And it's like, well, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's really the context that she meant. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think reading Housewives into it is a little much,

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Speaker 1: but it is reminiscent of our Trophy Wives and gold

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Speaker 1: Diggers episodes where you do have they're just so many,

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Speaker 1: so many value judgments made on women who dressed themselves

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Speaker 1: in particular kinds of ways and categorizing them all as

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Speaker 1: d n b s. Yeah, you could say that that

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Speaker 1: um can can be unnecessar fairly cruel and reductive. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's also worth remembering too that at

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Speaker 1: no point up until now, at least not that I've seen,

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Speaker 1: has Ronda Rousey self identified as a feminist. Am I right?

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Speaker 1: I believe you're correct, But so it's interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how that mantle has been placed on her. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think she clearly espouses a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: feminist ideals, and it's totally all about gender equality. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know that she cares to be the feminist

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Speaker 1: advocate that everyone is trying to read into her career. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's I mean, she's like so so many women who

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Speaker 1: do get stuck with some label or another in the

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Speaker 1: media just because of some quotes. And I can appreciate

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Speaker 1: her her powerful statements about body image and about following

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Speaker 1: your dreams and being determined and accepting yourself and saying

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Speaker 1: screw everybody else. Does that mean she's a feminist? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's not really for us to say. And there has

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Speaker 1: also been some backtracking on the feminist bloggo sphere because

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Speaker 1: of transphobic comments that Rousey has made as well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's she's not a perfect public speaker. In that regard,

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Speaker 1: even with that bustle piece that you started a few

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Speaker 1: minutes ago and now has an addendem on there saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she said some really great stuff, but also uh, some

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Speaker 1: not so great stuff. Yeah. Her attitudes about trans women

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Speaker 1: in particular are far from unique among m m A

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Speaker 1: and UFC fighters. Um, there's a lot of conversation around

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Speaker 1: this because of just the physical nature and the violent

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Speaker 1: nature of these types of competitions. So back in two,

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Speaker 1: UFC fighter Matt Mitrianni made some transphobic comments about fighter

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Speaker 1: Fallon Fox, a trans woman who came out that year,

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Speaker 1: and Mitrianni was suspended for them not cut and Rousey

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Speaker 1: responded by saying about fallon Fox, she can try hormones,

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Speaker 1: chopper pecker off, but it's still the same bone structure

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Speaker 1: a man has. It's an advantage. I don't think it's fair.

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Speaker 1: I understand the UFC doesn't want to be associated with

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Speaker 1: views like matrionis. I'm also glad they didn't straight cut him.

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Speaker 1: And that's a sentiment echoed by UFC President Dana White,

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Speaker 1: who's Rousey's boss effectively, who disagrees with that whole notion

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Speaker 1: of CIS and trans women fighting each other. He also

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Speaker 1: said bone structure is different, hands are bigger, jaws bigger,

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Speaker 1: everything is bigger. I don't believe in it. So this

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Speaker 1: is not Rousey is far from the only person in

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Speaker 1: m m A who's espousing these pretty terrible and exclusionary views,

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Speaker 1: and nor was this one time incident in Rousey told

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Speaker 1: the highly esteemed TMZ news outlet that she wouldn't fight

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Speaker 1: a trans woman, specifically referring to fallon Fox, saying it's

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Speaker 1: a case by case scenario thing. I've tried to research

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Speaker 1: it a lot. I feel like, if you go through

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Speaker 1: puberty as a man, it's not something can reverse. There's

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Speaker 1: no undo button on that, even though there has been

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Speaker 1: research on it and it's found that hormone therapy does

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Speaker 1: diminish your muscle mass. I mean, if you're going if

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Speaker 1: you're a trans woman going through hormone therapy, I should say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this this strikes me as uh people not just rousy,

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Speaker 1: I mean definitely rousy, but people in m m A

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Speaker 1: having uh, definitely preconceived notions and prejudices towards trans people

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Speaker 1: that I think a little education would go a long

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Speaker 1: way towards combating these attitudes. But yeah, No, I mean

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Speaker 1: her smack talk. She is a smack talker and her

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Speaker 1: smack talk does not stop at the trans community. Um.

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Speaker 1: She made assertions about wrestler Sarah McCann's abilities and dedication

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Speaker 1: because she's a mother. Rousey says, I'm more of a

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Speaker 1: fighter than she is. She has a kid at home

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Speaker 1: and she has to go home to that kid. I

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Speaker 1: can afford to be selfish where she can't. I'm willing

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Speaker 1: to die in there, which, of course is like are

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Speaker 1: we are? We really will to die in the octagon,

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Speaker 1: Rhonda Rousey. Um, And I understand that that's more of

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Speaker 1: like a I'm going to prove myself at how dedicated

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Speaker 1: I am, and I'm going to help promote myself on

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Speaker 1: social media by smack talking my opponents. I understand that

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Speaker 1: this is nothing new in the world of fighting, whatever

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Speaker 1: type of fighting it is, whether you're a man or

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Speaker 1: a woman. However, again, it goes back to like feminist

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Speaker 1: in me, like putting my head in my hands and

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Speaker 1: being like, let's not talk smack about women who have kids. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it's how gendered A lot of these jabs are,

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Speaker 1: which does seem like a product of that mm A environment. UM,

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Speaker 1: but also too. I mean this is this is not

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Speaker 1: exclusive to m m A and UFC UM. But for instance,

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Speaker 1: she has an ongoing feud with another fighter named Misha

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Speaker 1: Cupcake Kate, and she said once I think she probably

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Speaker 1: wears a push up bra under her sports bra. So

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Speaker 1: she's criticizing her for her apparent girlliness, which is crazy

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Speaker 1: to me because Rolesy herself has to straddle that line

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Speaker 1: of be the aggressive fighter who's in tip top shape

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Speaker 1: and can knock out other women, but you have to

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Speaker 1: be beautiful and sexy and conventionally attractive while you do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's right. I don't think it's right

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Speaker 1: that you should have to look one way or another

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Speaker 1: to be an athlete of any kind. What I'm saying is,

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting that here you have Rousy, who's part

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Speaker 1: of her success and her promotion by UFC, who previously

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Speaker 1: had the position of we will never have women in

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Speaker 1: UFC is due to the fact that she is. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not entirely due the fact that she's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: She's obviously an incredible fighter and an incredible athlete. UM,

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Speaker 1: but so much of that is like, well, she's also

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Speaker 1: really pretty, which helps are promoting her. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: she's posed on the cover of Maxim before um and

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Speaker 1: not to not to say that that a judgment against her,

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Speaker 1: but it does seem like she kind of wants to

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Speaker 1: have it both ways a little bit. You can't. You

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Speaker 1: can't judge another woman negatively for her girliness if you

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Speaker 1: yourself are posing nude and magazines to show off your

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Speaker 1: beautiful figure. I mean she's I mean, she's got a

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Speaker 1: great bode. She's a freaking athlete, you know, to freaking athlete,

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Speaker 1: freaking athlete, and I think anyone would be hard pressed

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Speaker 1: to deny that Dana White, the UFC president, was not

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Speaker 1: partially persuaded to position her in terms of, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of opening up UFC two women fighters if she

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Speaker 1: were not as conventionally attractive as she is. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: we'll get to his reasoning behind excluding women in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But Rousing also criticized Chris Cyborg Justina. I

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Speaker 1: love nicknames by the way, for fighters she's in general,

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Speaker 1: It's like it's the same thing with a roller Derby names.

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Speaker 1: I just love them. But yeah, so Chris Cyborg Justino

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Speaker 1: Stedd positive for an anabolic steroid. A while back, and

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Speaker 1: along the same lines of her transphobic comments, Rousy said

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Speaker 1: that Justino ceased to be a woman anymore. In a

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Speaker 1: perfect world, she would be a girl and not an it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so not she's not up on the uh

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Speaker 1: acceptance thing. But when I read that, what it reminded

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Speaker 1: me of was that quote. I believe it was two

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated where she talked about growing up and kids

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Speaker 1: criticized her and made fun of her and called her

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Speaker 1: miss man. And here she is doing a similar kind

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Speaker 1: of thing to another woman. Yes, we have some internalized things,

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Speaker 1: I was saying. That's what I'm saying. Oh man, you

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Speaker 1: know what scares me right now is thinking about Rhonda

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Speaker 1: Rousey listening to this podcast where we're like critiquing what

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Speaker 1: she says in her you know, wanting to come and

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Speaker 1: and beat us up in an octagon. Well, luckily there's

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Speaker 1: no octagons at the Health Stuff Works headquarters. Yes, this

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Speaker 1: podcast studio where in is a square, and luckily there

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Speaker 1: is like sound dampening squishy material on the wall. So

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Speaker 1: she did come in here and like body slam us,

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Speaker 1: it would be soft, Yeah, it would be against patting.

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Speaker 1: So but I do Bruce easily anyway, me too. But

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Speaker 1: lest you think that Rowsey has not been on the

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Speaker 1: receiving of smack talk herself, we should tell you about

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Speaker 1: former UFC fighter and wrestler Tank Abbott, who had some

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Speaker 1: not so nice things to say about both Rowsy and

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Speaker 1: women in general, women fighters in particular. But so he

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Speaker 1: on a podcast after Rousies comments, challenging Mayweather to a

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Speaker 1: fight and saying that, oh, how do you feel, how's

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Speaker 1: it feel to be beaten by woman? Uh? Tank Abbott

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Speaker 1: said that Mayweather would absolutely win and said she's a girl.

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Speaker 1: It's all about this emotional stuff. And he ended up

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Speaker 1: challenging Rowsey or any woman to a fight for free.

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Speaker 1: He said he wouldn't even train. Uh, and he said

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Speaker 1: I'll win and you'll have to make me a sandwich.

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Speaker 1: He also made comments, and I won't say the exact quote,

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Speaker 1: but he also made comments along the lines of but

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Speaker 1: you have to be a real girl. He sounds like

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Speaker 1: a trollish stuff whenever told you YouTube commenter tank is

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Speaker 1: that you Tank four three five. But speaking of a

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Speaker 1: possible Mayweather Rousy fight, I thought I was also interesting

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Speaker 1: that she has said that she doesn't want to fight

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Speaker 1: him because she does not think that it would be

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Speaker 1: healthy for the American public or the public at large

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Speaker 1: to see a guy and a girl fighting each other

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Speaker 1: like that. Well yeah, she specifically said for a man

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Speaker 1: to hit a woman on TV. Yeah, so that's probably

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Speaker 1: not a fight that you and I are going to

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Speaker 1: see anytime soon. And hopefully the fight between Rod Arousey

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Speaker 1: and two feminist podcasters also not going to happen. Hey Rhonda, Hey,

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Speaker 1: hey girl. Hey. Well, so there's obviously a lot of controversy.

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Speaker 1: She's she's not a perfect public figure. Who is um

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Speaker 1: But as we said, a lot of the seems like

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Speaker 1: it might be some internalized misogyny or internalized conflict over

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Speaker 1: feminine appearance versus maybe masculine activities. So why are people

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Speaker 1: so enamored with this woman? What's what's her story? And first,

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Speaker 1: before we get to her story in particular her backstory,

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Speaker 1: which in and of itself is pretty incredible, I think

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Speaker 1: part of the love and affection and fascination, if you

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Speaker 1: don't have any love for her, is the fact that

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Speaker 1: she's broken through so many walls to get where she is,

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Speaker 1: so many stereotypes, so many cultural fears around women's abilities,

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Speaker 1: and what's appropriate and what will sell. Yeah, being a

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Speaker 1: woman who is known for being able to beat people

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Speaker 1: up in as few as fourteen seconds, who is also

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Speaker 1: considered a sex symbol to some is revolutionary because not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: we we haven't always really known what to do with

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Speaker 1: pugilistic women kind of they've kind of always freaked us out. Um.

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Speaker 1: So The Guardian had a great history on women fighters

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Speaker 1: and mentioned how in the seventeen seventies in London you

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Speaker 1: have the first recorded modern boxing match between Elizabeth a

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Speaker 1: Championist Wilkinson and Martha Jones. So I note, Martha, where's

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Speaker 1: your nickname? I know, come on, old Matha, someone if

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Speaker 1: you know Martha Jones's nickname please tell us. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: just wasn't recorded because the Cockney champions won. But I

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Speaker 1: mean it was definitely women's boxing, women's fighting. It was

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Speaker 1: definitely considered abhorrent and a side show, and it was

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Speaker 1: treated as such. Even in the nineteen no for Olympics,

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Speaker 1: women's boxing was just an exhibition, while men's of course

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Speaker 1: was part of the official competition. Yeah, I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: still have stuff like women's topless boxing, which I know

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Speaker 1: just hopefully they have hopefully I'm sure they have rules.

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Speaker 1: And despite the attitudes though that existed about or maybe

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Speaker 1: because of UH women's participation in boxing and weightlifting and wrestling.

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Speaker 1: We have one of our first celebrities in America in

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Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, and that's pro strong woman Katie

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Speaker 1: Sandwina and Stephiemist in History Class didn't episode on her,

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Speaker 1: but we also talked about Sandwena in our last episode

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Speaker 1: on women in weightlifting. But Sanduena was another case who

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe she's the original Rousy. Even though she

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Speaker 1: didn't fight, she was a weightlifter and a strong woman. Um.

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Speaker 1: She also had that case of being incredibly strong and

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Speaker 1: having these you know, quote unquote masculine abilities. But her

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Speaker 1: beauty was touted above just about anything else and UH

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Speaker 1: news outlets that sounds like a modern term right. HER's

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Speaker 1: journalists at the time talked about her maternal skills and

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Speaker 1: instincts and the fact that she had these children and

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Speaker 1: she was still motherly. Don't worry everyone. She's got a

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Speaker 1: large head, which puts her beautiful features into stark relief.

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Speaker 1: She's not too muscily, not too fat, She's tall and

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Speaker 1: like a goddess. Well, because they had to sell her

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Speaker 1: that way. Otherwise she would be considered grotesque if she

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Speaker 1: were divorced from conventional femininity than this woman who I

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Speaker 1: loved that one of her like her party tricks, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, was lifting her husband above her head. But

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Speaker 1: if she were not as pretty as she was, she

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Speaker 1: would have been more of a freak show attraction than

422
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: a Wringling Brothers, you know, center stage attraction. Yeah, exactly,

423
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: um and and I think, just to put in perspective

424
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: the tone that was still used decades and decades and

425
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: decades after that first fight, that first boxing match in England.

426
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: In England's conservative Home Secretary worked tirelessly to prevent a

427
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: woman's boxing match from taking place, saying he never thought

428
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: that such a disgraceful exhibition would be staged in this country.

429
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: So clearly women's boxing not catching on with everyone. Yeah, no,

430
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: it's a whole don't hit a girl thing. Even even

431
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: girls can't hit girls. We can scratch each other's eyeballs

432
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: out and pull hair, but no punching. Well, don't, yeah,

433
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: don't hit women. Women shouldn't hit each other, and not

434
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: in public, and not dressed like that. Please go back home.

435
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: This is too masculine well, and and punching someone in

436
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: the face too. That's a woman's prize is her face.

437
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: How could you do that? Um? When we get into

438
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties and fifties, though, we do see women's

439
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: wrestling and roller Derby, What up to all of our stuff?

440
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: I've never told you roller Derby enthusiasts. I know you're

441
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: out there because we hear from you. Um. These really

442
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: start to become big things, which helped ussher in boxing

443
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: because think about these kinds of contact sports. Um, it's

444
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: not so surprised. I think that that that makes more

445
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: of a way for boxing to happen. Yeah, and so

446
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: then you get you start to see more, um, sort

447
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: of legit women's boxing celebrities rise. At this time, you've

448
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: got the four ft eleven battling Barbara Buttrick a k a.

449
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: The Mighty Adam meaning Adam. Wait, that's a weight class.

450
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: She fought bare knuckle matches at fairs in Britain against

451
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: anyone who'd fight her. Just like, come on up, fight

452
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: fight old Barbara. Babs. You do a whole podcast on Babs.

453
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: I don't know more. I think so too. But yeah,

454
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: she moved to America and that's when she went pro.

455
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: I think America had slightly different attitudes toward boxing, not

456
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: that it was, you know, in everybody's living rooms, but

457
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: slightly different attitudes than they had in England. She ended

458
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: up winning one of the first of Texas is boxing

459
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: licenses for women, and she and the other one I

460
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: think there, I think there was just one other one

461
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: ended up going head to head, and when Buttrick one,

462
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: she became the world's first woman boxing champ. And I

463
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: think it's worth noting too that for her last fight

464
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty she was four months pregnant. Barbara the

465
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: four ft eleven Barbara battle in Buttrick was four months pregnant. Meanwhile,

466
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: in England, no offense British listeners, women's boxing was still

467
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: more of a titilating freak show, and women boxers were

468
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: often on the same bill as topless fighters. So it's

469
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: just a novelty women beating each other up. All these

470
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: like back room barbawls where women, you know, it's the

471
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: same thing with like hawk fighting, yellow wrestling, mud wrestling.

472
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, look at the woman boxer.

473
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: It's such a gross anomaly. But we're turned on at

474
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: the same time. Um. But it's interesting because once the

475
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties hit, uh oh wow, I didn't even mean

476
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: to do that. Oh my god, I'm finally, I'm finally

477
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: getting there with the punk you got the stuff kid, finally. Um.

478
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: But women's pro boxing starts to get more legit as

479
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: do girls and women's wrestling teams. It's obviously still not

480
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: fully accepted, but it's becoming more legitimate. More legitimate clubs

481
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: are forming around these activities. In England, for instance, in

482
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: the Amateur Boxing Association lifted it's one and sixteen year

483
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: ban on female fighters, and in n Jane Couch became

484
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: the first legal professional boxer. Around the same time, but

485
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier, in the US, USA Boxing finally

486
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: lifts its ban on women, followed by the Amateur International

487
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: Boxing Association, and around the same time we start to

488
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: see women entering m m A. So the technical history

489
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: of mixed martial arts goes back for a very long

490
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: time because it's a combination of these very ancient sports

491
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: like judo and also boxing, kickboxing, moy tai wrestling, and grappling,

492
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: which I feel like that's just something I do want

493
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: to league basis mentally grappling with reality. And now you're

494
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: a champ, though you're the woman's number one world champ,

495
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: was grappling with reality. Have a look of shock on

496
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: my face right now, listeners. I can't even see myself,

497
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: but I can feel it. Um. Yeah. And you know,

498
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: Krista mentioned judo, and indeed many of the early women

499
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: who went into m A had Judo backgrounds, as does

500
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: Rhonda Rowsy, like we mentioned, um and so you know,

501
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned how the mid nineties that's when women start

502
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: getting into m m A. Well, UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship

503
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: promoting Company started in ninety three, and of course it's

504
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 1: all dudes and around this time. It's interesting that looking

505
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: at UFC and m m A, the American Medical Association

506
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: also called it abhorrent. Yeah. Senator John mccainny even like

507
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: spoke out against it at one point just because it

508
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: is so so violent and there are technically no rules,

509
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: well they're used to be no rules. There were no

510
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: weight classes, no rules. It's basically like just go in

511
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: there and trying not to kill him. Um. But eventually

512
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: to be taken seriously as a sport, not just a spectacle,

513
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: which of course is still a spectacle. They had to have,

514
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, rules in place to keep you from dying.

515
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: So now a referee can intervene if it looks like

516
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: someone is about to be a little too claw Bard.

517
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Sure and yeah, and then you have the weight class

518
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: divisions and things to make it to make it more

519
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: like the rules of boxing, so to speak. But it's

520
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: not until two thousand seven that women's m m A

521
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: catches on thanks to Showtime broadcasting a fight featuring Gina Krana,

522
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: who we mentioned earlier, and Krona's career starts to gain

523
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: steam and UFC rival Strike Force ends up sponsoring another

524
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: fight on Showtime. She eventually crosses over into film with

525
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: the movie Haywire, which I meant to see. I never saw,

526
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: neither did I. I wonder if it was any good

527
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: listeners let us know. Then, in two thousand eleven, not

528
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: so long ago, UFC president Dana White vowed that women

529
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: would never fight in his organization. And why here we

530
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: go quote. I went to a fight up in northern

531
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: California about eight or nine years ago, and I saw

532
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: this woman that looked like Chuck Ladell fight this girl

533
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: who looked like she had about five tybo classes, so

534
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: essentially saying there's not enough skill out there and it

535
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: would be un sexy to do it. Basically, if you

536
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: don't look like a supermodel and or you can't throw

537
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: a punch, what's the point. But there were octagon girls

538
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: who were the sexily clad, attractive women who would you know,

539
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: between the rounds walk rock around the octagon and hold

540
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: up their little cards. Sure, sure, absolutely so. Yeah, people

541
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: who are fans of boxing and other things like that

542
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: shouldn't be surprised by that. But Danta White does change

543
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: his tune obviously, I mean spoiler. Ronda Rousey is a

544
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: champion fighter. Uh she though, is specifically the one who

545
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: got White to change his tune, and I love semi

546
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: sarcastically the way he puts it, saying, this whole women's

547
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: power movement that's going on right now is crazy. Ronda

548
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: has been the whole thing. Ronda is the one that

549
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: launched this whole thing. I wouldn't have done it if

550
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't for Ronda. She's the one that convinced me

551
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: to do it. And it's the best decision I've ever

552
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: made because it's putting money in his pocket. So of course,

553
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: he loves it. So how did Ronda Rousey come to be?

554
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: She did not come out of the womb, you know,

555
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: body slamming people. She didn't come out of zeus head

556
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: fully for yeah, but practically yeah. So Rousey is a

557
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: second generation judo player. Her mom and Maria DeMars in

558
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: four was the first American male or female, just the

559
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: first American to win gold at the World Judo Championship,

560
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: and Rousy, thanks to her training, was ranked number one

561
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: in America at just sixteen years old. She dropped out

562
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: of high school, and she's talked about how, you know,

563
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: even as a teenager, people rooted against her because she

564
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: was so dominant as an American girl in a sport

565
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,479
Speaker 1: that was overwhelmingly European and Asian. And her success has

566
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: had a lot to do with her mom's really intensive

567
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: approach to training. I mean, she talked about at one

568
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: point how when she was in middle or high school,

569
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: where she would have sometimes up to fifteen bouts every day,

570
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: and in between her mom would not allow her to

571
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: talk to other kids. She would have to go and

572
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: sit down and focus on winning. That's isolating, it's very isolating.

573
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: And we we read a lot about how Ron Rowsing

574
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: is known for crying. She cries all the time, and

575
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: she says it's part actually because of how I mean,

576
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of emotionally triggering for her because she didn't

577
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: always like having to do all of this the studo

578
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: all the time when she was a kid um But

579
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: all of that judo paid off in two thousand eight

580
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: at the Beijing Olympics, she won the bronze and she

581
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: was the first American woman to medal in judo. And

582
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: she ended up opting out of training for the twelve Games,

583
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: so she had her whole future in front of her.

584
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: She's like, I can't be an Olympian forever. What am

585
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: I gonna do? I'm gonna go to college. Should I

586
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: join the Coast Guard I could jump out of helicopters

587
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: and save people. Or should I go pro m m A?

588
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: What happened Caroline? I have no idea spoilers She joined

589
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: the Coast Guard? No No. In ten she makes a

590
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: decision to go for for m m A. She trains

591
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: with a judo competitor who had earned a UFC contract.

592
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: She learns the basics of boxing in my Tie, and

593
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: she starts out in amateur fights, but The thing is,

594
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: opponents weren't really so sure about going up against an

595
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: Olympian who hold her own against dudes at her gym.

596
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: Her first fight lasted just thirty seconds and earned her dollars.

597
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: Then in two thousand eleven, she joins the Strike Force roster,

598
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: seeing it as a launching pad to UFC. And then

599
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: in twelve she and opponent Mischa Tate build up anticipation

600
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: for their fight through interviews and sniping at each other

601
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: over social media. And I mean this was something though

602
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: that was also predicated by them both being coaches on

603
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: a UFC reality show, and I mean, ron A Rousy

604
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: did not mask any of her loathing for Tate, and

605
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: when the fight happens, Rousey dominates, no surprise, and UFC

606
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: takes notice. That's right, So later on that year they

607
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: end up signing her, and on top of that, they

608
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: announced their building a woman's bantam weight division, which is

609
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: one pounds centered around her. So they're from the get

610
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: go established her as the star. And it was really

611
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: her growing fame that eased Dana white skepticism about including

612
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: women in his organization. Because you have to keep in

613
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: mind that the year that she joined the Strike Force roster,

614
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: and she talks about how, like I envisioned going to

615
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: UFC after this. That was the same year that he

616
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: was like, nope, no women never. So this woman is

617
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: clearly determined. Um. But also her coaching stint on that

618
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: reality show, you know, her fame is growing. She's posing

619
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Newton Magazine, she's giving lots of interviews, she's dominating other fighters,

620
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: and she's becoming the main attraction on pay per view fights.

621
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: All of this which, of course, you know, equal sign dollars,

622
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: signed dollar, signed dollar sign definitely serving to ease white

623
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: skepticism about including women. But this is also what's lad

624
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: a lot of fans to kind of turn on her

625
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: because she is very cocky, or at least plays up

626
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: the cocky arrogance, which is untrasted to her crying or

627
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: because she's known to to just weep yeah a lot.

628
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: But also she's become she's become the heel, right, so

629
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: because she nobody can beat her, she's almost become sort

630
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: of this villain. Her cockiness and her confidence, plus the

631
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 1: fact that she you know, never loses, people are sort

632
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: of painting her to be the villain. And I think

633
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: part of her this new Yorker interview with her was

634
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: so fantastic. Part of her loves it and loves the

635
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: attention and to screw him, and then the other part

636
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: of her, it's like, but why are they booing? Ma,

637
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: I'm so good and not a mean person. Yeah, she says,

638
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: whenever people talk about how cocky and arrogant I am,

639
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: it blows me away because I worked so hard to

640
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: develop self confidence. Because one thing we didn't mention a

641
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: few minutes ago was how when she was born, the

642
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck, which led to

643
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: some brain damage, and she did not speak until she

644
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: was six years old. And one of the reasons why

645
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: she cried so often is because the only way she

646
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: could communicate during that time that she needed something in

647
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: that moment was by crying. What does she need? She need?

648
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: A food? Yeah, probably a hug, maybe a break from training,

649
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: an ice pack, um, but yeah. She's also deeply affected

650
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: by her father's suicide when when she was a child,

651
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: he got her into swimming and it wasn't until his

652
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: death that she switched over to her mother's sport, and

653
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: so that transition was deeply emotional for and that this

654
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: is also all compounded by the fact that when she

655
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: was competing in judo as a teen, that pressure to

656
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: make weight made her insecurity over her already athletic and

657
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: different body so much worse, and so she became believing.

658
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: But now because of that experience in overcoming that experience,

659
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: she holds fundraisers for eating disorder clinics and she showed up.

660
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: This is an oft told tale. She showed up for

661
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: her maximum cover shoot sixteen pounds over five pound fighting weight.

662
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: So it's not to glorify her body in a quote

663
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: unquote unhealthy state. Yeah, and you've got to appreciate that

664
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: about her, that she is very open about having dealt

665
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: with a needing disorder. I mean, I'm sure it's an

666
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: ongoing issue for her being in a weight class that

667
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: she has to maintain. And I wonder too how she

668
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: processes her physical appearance playing such a role in her fame. Yeah. Absolutely,

669
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: And but this is nothing new women fighters appearances playing

670
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: a role in their fame and success and even their

671
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 1: access to resources to be fighters is nothing new. I mean,

672
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: not to harp too much on boxing, but that's where

673
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: most of the studies are. I mean, there's not a

674
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: ton of studies obviously on women in m m a UM,

675
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: but there was Journal of Sport and Social Issues study

676
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: that looked at women in boxing trying to balance that

677
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: whole masculine pugilism with maninity. And in interviews with twelve women,

678
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: they found that these women are quite aware of the

679
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: numerous stereotypes that exist about them as a result of

680
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: their participation in a so called deviant sport deviant for

681
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: your gender norms. And they found that these women use

682
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: a lot of strategies to sort of manage their identity

683
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: in an effort to remain marketable. Because it's not just

684
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: about whether you're a good fighter who can throw a punch.

685
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: You also have to be marketable. Women have to be

686
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: both beautiful and like three times more incredible uh to

687
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: get that sort of sponsorship to get promoted in boxing

688
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: and wrestling and now m m a uh. This study

689
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: also found that women have to they know that they

690
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: need to balance their public identity. They can't appear too

691
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: masculine or too feminine or else faced negative sanctions. Those

692
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: are mainly meaning like social sanctions, people turning on them

693
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: if you appear to one way or the other. Well,

694
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: and I wonder how much of that two has to

695
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: do with the audience. I would assume that for both

696
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: boxing and mm A, well there are plenty of female fans,

697
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: they're probably a lot more male fans out there, so

698
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: maybe that tight rope is even more elevated because of that. Well,

699
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got so when you search for you know,

700
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: women's m A, if you just google women's m A

701
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: or top Women in m m A, the stuff that

702
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: you find most often is like ten hottest women in

703
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: m m A, ten you know, busty fighters, blah blah blah.

704
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: And I found a Men's Fitness magazine article that was

705
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: like the tin top m A Women's m A. And

706
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is perfect, great, let's see

707
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: what they have to say. And so I was clicking

708
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: through and I just realized, Oh, it's just it's just

709
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: more of the same, because even though it wasn't build outright,

710
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: is like, look at these hot busty babes. In every

711
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: description it would show so like the picture would be

712
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: this woman at the top of her game, like throwing

713
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: a punch, looking really tough, but the description would be like,

714
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: here's so and so showing off for but here's so

715
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: and so looking so hot in that sports braud. It's like,

716
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: this is the only Is this really the only way

717
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: that the sport will get covered? I'm wincing, yeah, because

718
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:22,479
Speaker 1: it seems like for now, yes, to some extent. Yeah,

719
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: it seems like women's m m A can't really get

720
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: elevated beyond those old school attitudes about women boxing in

721
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: the back rooms of bars, or jello wrestling or mud

722
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: wrestling or topless boxing in the back rooms of bars. Um.

723
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: And so that's why it's so disheartening to see stuff

724
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: like in men's Fitness magazine where it's purporting to show

725
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: these great athletes and and talking about their athleticism, but

726
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: it's not. There's no focus on their athleticism. The focus

727
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: is still on that titilation factor and how attractive or

728
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: unattractive or you know, fit or curvy they are. And

729
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: it's surprised then that another study that came out in

730
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: fall two thousand four in Qualitative Sociology found that women

731
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: competitive boxers are both enabled and constrained in how they

732
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: perform their gender um and the author talks about how

733
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: there's physical feminism that allows women to transcend these traditional

734
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: discourses that limit their physical power. So we would see

735
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 1: that sort of enacted in how you know, Rhonda Rowsy

736
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: is beating out, for instance, Floyd Mayweather for best fighter

737
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: at the SPS. But at the same time, there's still

738
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: that limitation because of discourse about our feminine bodies and

739
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: how women are often penalized for being aggressive. Yeah, and

740
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: no matter how much women train, they're just never seen

741
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: as better than men or as good as men even well,

742
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: and that goes back to old tank habit make me

743
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: a sandwich saying no, you never go I'm never any

744
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: wanted to fight me. Well, because there's the general perception

745
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: of women's m m A like I was just saying,

746
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: is that it's still this side show sort of. I mean,

747
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: Rhonda Rousing is an incredible athlete, as are many of

748
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: her opponents. But until we get past this thing of like, oh, well,

749
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 1: women's m m A and women's partition participation in UFC

750
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: is purely a platform for Rowsy and everything else is

751
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: just so that we can look at half naked women

752
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: hitting each other until we are actually able to appreciate

753
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: their athleticism for what it is and take them seriously

754
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: as athletes. It's just gonna stay this side show and

755
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: tank abbots of the world are still just gonna tell

756
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: women fighters to make them sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, I

757
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: will say that there is, at least to my eye,

758
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: nothing sexy at all in the presentation of those you know,

759
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: bantam weight UFC fighters. I mean, their hairs back and

760
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: they've got on their you know, sports bras and shorts

761
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: and it's just like going war and there's almost barely

762
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: any time to even try to objectify them. Um. But

763
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: you've got to wonder what is next. Where are Rousy

764
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: and UFC going with all this? Because um, UFC is

765
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: expanding its options for women by adding a straw weight division,

766
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: which is one oh six to fifteen pounds and international listeners,

767
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that we don't have these kilogram conversions

768
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: at the ready for you right now. But so they're

769
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: adding a straw weight division, but there's nothing for the

770
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: heavier fighters, and that's a shame because coming up behind

771
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: Rousey you've got Kayla Harrison, who won the gold in

772
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: judo at the Olympics, those Olympics that Rousey opted out

773
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: of training four And the problem though, coming up behind

774
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: Rohnda Rousey is that Harrison weighs in it one, meaning

775
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: she she can't fight Rousey. They're not in the same

776
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: weight classes. She can't get that sort of fame platform

777
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: that even fighting Rousey at all gives you, and she

778
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: might not have enough UFC appeal, she said. Fans don't

779
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: want to see us big girls out there. It doesn't

780
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: matter what I have to offer as an athlete. Part

781
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: of the gig is that I'm also pretty and good

782
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: in front of a camera and marketable. It's up to

783
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: the m A gods to decide that. I feel like

784
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: that sums the whole thing up right there. Fans don't

785
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: want to see big girls out there. There's still that

786
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: that balancing act of the feminine versus the masculem. Like

787
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: you said, you know about that study, you can't have

788
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: too much of one or the other. And I mean

789
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: on on the good side, there is um Invictive Fighting Championships,

790
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: which is the largest all women's m m A organization.

791
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: They started in twelve as a platform for pro fighters

792
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: to compete consistently. However, it's still sort of treated as

793
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: a platform to get to UFC, but until UFC expands

794
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: and includes more weight classes for women, um or until

795
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: rond Arows retires to go make movies or do whatever

796
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: she's doing. UM, I just don't know how many more

797
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: women are going to be able to actually make that leap.

798
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying they can't. I'm not saying they can't.

799
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that until there's more room for them

800
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: both socially and like literally letting them into weight classes,

801
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering how many more women we will see

802
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: becoming huge m A names. Well, what do you think

803
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: as we close out our convo, what do you think

804
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: about her having been so quickly elevated to feminist I

805
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: Cotton status. I think this is exactly this is what

806
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 1: I said back when we did our episode on Beyonce,

807
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: which is that people are looking for a feminist hero

808
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: and Beyonce is not everybody's cup of tea, and neither's

809
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: Rhonda Rousy. And what I said back in the Beyonce

810
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: episode was that there will be other cupcakes because the

811
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: story I told in that episode was like the way

812
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 1: that I talked myself out of, like overspending at the store.

813
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: If I see a sweater I like, and I'm like,

814
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: oh my god, I have to have that sweater. Or

815
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: if I'm in the break room at work and somebody's

816
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: brought cupcakes, it's like, oh my god, I have to

817
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: have that cupcake. It's like, no, you don't. There will

818
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: be other cupcakes, there will be other sweaters, there will

819
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: be other feminists. Um, we don't have to so desperately

820
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: apply the label of feminist hero to someone like Roonda Rousing,

821
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: because really that just elevates her to a point of like, oh, well,

822
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: but now we hate her because she said all these

823
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: transphobic things. I am not absolutely not excusing her for

824
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: any of the transphobic and trans misogynist things that she said.

825
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: I think they're despicable and obviously I disagree with them. Um.

826
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: Is she a role model for girls in sports? Yeah?

827
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: For sure. Has she ever said she's a feminist? Again,

828
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: not that we're aware of. Can she still be a

829
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: role model? Yes? Should we treat our role models as

830
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: heroes up on platforms? Maybe not. I think we need

831
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: to take some of that with a grain of salt. Yeah.

832
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: I think it's also a case study in prematurely applying

833
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: labels and by virtue of that, like you said, having

834
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations based on that. Yeah, people are not perfect

835
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't look for them to be. Although, Caroline,

836
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 1: I am going to say that Ronda Rowsey is no Beyonce. Okay,

837
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: Ronda Rowsing is very tough, but Beyonce is the queen.

838
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: That's all I'm gonna say about that. Kristen, I never

839
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 1: meant to imply, And if if you're about to write

840
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: me a letter to uh to argue, I don't want

841
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: to read it. But I am curious to hear from

842
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: other listeners about her, because I mean, like she's everywhere

843
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: right now, and curious to know thoughts on her role

844
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: model status and also just this general idea of women

845
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: in m m A. I mean, there is something a

846
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable for me watching m A in general,

847
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: but also advocating for women to get in an octagon

848
00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: and beat each other up. Yeah, So lots of thoughts

849
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: are with us mom Stuff at how Stuffwork dot Com

850
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at

851
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Our messages on Facebook, and we've got

852
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now.

853
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Leanne in response to

854
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: our maternity leave episode, she says, I work for Leap.

855
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it out. I don't want

856
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: Leanna get in trouble one of the largest employers in

857
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: my city. I took maternity leave in July. We get

858
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: six weeks short term disability and get paid six of

859
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: our pay. Then we have the option to take another

860
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: six weeks unpaid f m l A for a total

861
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: of twelve. I chose to take the full twelve weeks,

862
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: and it was an extreme financial burden, even though I

863
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: was able to use paid time off for four of

864
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: the weeks, I had saved up for over a year.

865
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: Upon returning to work, which was the hardest thing I've

866
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: ever had to do, my manager said to me, can't

867
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: believe you think you needed twelve weeks. You American women

868
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: are so lazy. I absolutely love my job, and it

869
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: was still hard leaving my new baby at home, so

870
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: to hear that really had an impact on me. I

871
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: desperately need my job and know that I'm lucky to

872
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: have the benefits I do, considering I don't have a

873
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: college education. So all I could do was hang my

874
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: head and return to work. Leanne Now I actually read

875
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: response to Leanne, basically telling her that I couldn't believe

876
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: that someone would have the gall to say that because

877
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: it's so incredibly insensitive. Well, Leanne is not the only

878
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: mom we've heard from who has gotten the lazy implication

879
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: from a superior, So I've got a let her here

880
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: from Cali. Also about that podcast, she writes, first of all,

881
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised you never mentioned the very

882
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: recent example Ray Mabus has set for the rest of

883
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: the federal government by guaranteeing eighteen weeks of pay maternity

884
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: leave for all active duty Navy and Marines. Hooray, she writes,

885
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: I'm one of the lucky recipients of this policy. My son,

886
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: Theodore cute name side note, was born on April seven,

887
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: and I was on my six weeks of maternity lead

888
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: when Mr Mabis made his announcement. My feelings at the

889
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: time were mixed excitement and guilt. I wanted to spend

890
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 1: time with my family, but I also knew that while

891
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: I was out, someone else at work would have to

892
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: manage my responsibilities for me, and I didn't feel like

893
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: I had earned that time off. It didn't help knowing

894
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,919
Speaker 1: that my co workers would take issue with it. Many

895
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: of them have small children of their own, but didn't

896
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: qualify for the extra lead, either because their babies were

897
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: too old or because they were civilian contractors and not

898
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: active duty military. Once I dealt with those issues, my

899
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: husband and I decided it would be best for our

900
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: family if I took my remaining sixty days of lead

901
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: spread out over a period of time. So I began

902
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: taking two to three days off per week, essentially working

903
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: part time hours. I worked on a plan with my

904
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,479
Speaker 1: superiors that would allow me to do this and still

905
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: take care of my responsibilities that work, but it was

906
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: made very clear to me that my performance evaluation would

907
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 1: suffer severely and my chances for advancement would be minimal.

908
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: To me, it's worth the loss there to be spending

909
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: more time with my children. When the word spread to

910
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: my superior superior, things got more difficult. They said that

911
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: this wasn't the intended use of the maternity lead policy,

912
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: and they suggested I work with my superiors to develop

913
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: a plan that does fit their interpretation without ever telling

914
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: me what that intent is or putting a policy in

915
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: place that outlines the rules as they see them. So

916
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: it seems I just have to guess at what they mean.

917
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: It's so funny to me that it's considered lazy to

918
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: take maternity leave. I do so much more work when

919
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm at home than when I'm at work. I'm constantly

920
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: changing diapers, making food, and cleaning all the time. Being

921
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: a military family and thousands of miles away from our

922
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: extended families makes it hard to We're very blessed to

923
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: be able to have visits from our mothers a few

924
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: times a year, but otherwise we have no village to

925
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: help raise our children. So thank CALLI into everyone who

926
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: has written into us, especially on that issue of maternity

927
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: and parental leave. We've heard from so many of you,

928
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: and it's so clear that the system is broken. So again,

929
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: if you want to share some cheerful stories with us, Mom,

930
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you

931
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: can send them. For links to all of our social

932
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts,

933
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: including this one with links to our sources. So you

934
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: can learn more about Rhonda Rowdy Rowsy, head on over

935
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more

936
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how

937
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com