1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: is Robert. 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And Rob and I 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: are out for a few days this week, so we 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: are bringing you some episodes from the vault. This is 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: part two of our series on the gray whale. This 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: series originally ran in March of twenty twenty three. This 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: episode was published on March seventh, twenty twenty three. We 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 2: hope you enjoy. 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: of our series on gray whales, inspired by a first 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: hand encounter that Rob had recently. Right, that's right. 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I go into detail a little bit more about 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: this in the first episode, but basically, the family and 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: and I got to go down to Baja California, Mexico 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: to see gray whales in their their breeding lagoons and 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: it was it was magical. We got to observe them 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: in their their their most peaceful setting. And uh, and 22 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: so we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: about that setting today but also their their cycle while 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: they go why they go through these migration cycles and 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: so forth. 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you haven't heard part one yet, you 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: should probably go back check that one out first. In 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: that we explored the basics of gray whales h describe 29 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: some of their their major characteristics, but we also talked 30 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: about things like their relationship with barnacles. They have some 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: obligate barnacles that they are usually encrusted with. Today, we're 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: going to focus some more on on grey whale ecology, 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: such as how they fit into their environment, especially with 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: regard to predators. 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: That's right, especially there, they're really their primary predator, their 36 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: main predator, and that is the orca, the killer whale. 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: I guess, their main predator other than humans. 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: Yes, aside from humans, and of course there have been 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: fluctuations in the risk posed by humans to grey whales. 40 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: It certainly hasn't gone away. Our risk to gray whales 41 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: go beyond merely whaling them. It also applies to other 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: things we're doing to the environment. But yes, aside from us, 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: it's the orca that is the main threat. I mean, 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: it's really the orca that is the threat posed to 45 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: gray whales that have helped shape what the gray whale is. 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: It's really difficult. It seems to overstress the importance of 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: this predator's role in the life cycle of this whale 48 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: in particular, but multiple whale species. So we've discussed the 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: orc on the show before, I believe if they've come up, 50 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: although I don't think we've ever really done a deep 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: dive on them. They are an apex predator, They're an 52 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: oceanic dolphin, and their range is nothing short of the 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: world's oceans. If you look at maps depicting where killer 54 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: whales can be found, and it's basically like, well, is 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: the ocean there, well, then that's their range. Though that 56 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: coverage has also been described as a bit patchy. It 57 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: doesn't mean like the oceans just packed with them, and 58 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: their conservation status is technically data deficient, so you know, 59 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: there's still some some unknowns about about their their their 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 1: their cycles and their whereabouts. But the orca itself has 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: no natural predators. It is the absolute top of the 62 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: food chain. Now. The orca has long been creatures of 63 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: reverence for many indigenous populations, especially those populations with ties 64 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: to the sea, and many of these understandings have a 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: more I would say, based on what I've been reading, 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: more nuanced visions of the orcas and understandings of the 67 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: of the orca compared to Western depictions that up until 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: very recent times, depictions and understandings of killer whale were 69 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: very much focusing in on their savagery and also greatly 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: exaggerating their potential threat to humans. Because we'll touch on 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: this later, but there have been no documented cases of 72 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: a killer whale in the wild killing a human. 73 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: Being, though there have been quite a few cases in captivity. 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and that's of course a sad story in 75 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: and of itself. Well, we're probably not going to go 76 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: into that much, but I did a fair amount of 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: reading about that over the weekend as well. I watched 78 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: the trailer for Blackfish, and it made just the trailer 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: alone was a bit too much for me. I'm gonna 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: have to build up my courage to actually watch Blackfish, 81 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: which is a documentary about captive orcas and some of 82 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: the very tragic events and deaths that have surrounded that practice. 83 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: But long before that was taking place, you had people 84 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: like plenty of the Elder, our old friend, plenty of 85 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: the Elder chiming in on Orca. He describes them in 86 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: detail in one chapter of the Natural History, stating that 87 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: their form quote cannot be in any way adequately described, 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: but as an enormous mass of flesh armed with teeth. 89 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 2: You could say that about almost any mammal. 90 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. It's a it's a strange description. I mean, 91 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: we're we're fortunate, I guess, and that we have so 92 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: many wonderful photographs, so much great footage of Orca, and 93 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: in many cases as well, a lot of people get 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: to glimpse them in the wild, you know, from a 95 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: from a distance usually, I guess. But but still we 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: have a better idea of like what a killer whale is, 97 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: and we don't have to just think, well, I know 98 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: there was flesh, and I know there were teeth. 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: I mean that image conjures to mind, just like one 100 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: of those tumors that grows teeth. But it's just like 101 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: floating in the ocean. 102 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like some sort of science fiction monster. 103 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: But at the same time, this chapter is definitely worth 104 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: checking out for plenty of fans because he goes into 105 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: a little bit of detail though about their hostility toward 106 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: the Belena towards the whales, and this, of course is 107 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: very true or at least of some varieties of orka 108 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: in one variety in particular that we're going to discuss, 109 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: and it's actually reflected in the name killer whale, which 110 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: the author and naturalist Mark Carwodine in his book A 111 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: Handbook of Wales, Dolphins and Porpoises of the World, he 112 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: points out that moniker killer whale is derived from whale killer. 113 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: Now the species name for the orca is orcinis orca, 114 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: and this is an interesting assembly as well, with the 115 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: ancient Roman use of orcanas meaning belonging to the kingdom 116 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: of the dead, and orca meaning either a kind of 117 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: whale or a barrel in the Greek I've seen it 118 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: also translated as like barrel whale. So Orca may be 119 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: the only true natural predator of the gray whale, though 120 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: large sharks like gray white sharks have been known to 121 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: attack calves and even adults. And then you have things 122 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: like the cookie cutter shark that make a small shark 123 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: species that may take bites out of adults. But these are, 124 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think you might think of these more 125 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: as nuisances than like true predators, though maybe I'm not 126 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: being fair to the cookie cutter sharks. I mean they 127 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: are taking bites out of If something was taking a 128 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: bite out of me, I would consider it probably a predator. 129 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: Depends how big the bite is. 130 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: Well, as the name implies, they're small bites and and 131 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: they're smaller I guess the bigger you are. But anyway, Yeah, 132 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: the orca are the very to say the least, a 133 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: hell of a predator to have to deal with. 134 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: They are. 135 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: They are ruthless and cunning. They employ various pack hunting 136 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: or I guess you might call it called pod hunting 137 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: attack strategies against their prey, and the list of possible 138 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: prey for a killer whale is pretty long. That they've 139 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: been observed to prey on eight white sharks in the 140 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: waters off the coasts of South Africa and New Zealand, 141 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: strategically targeting and removing the livers of these great whites, 142 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: like tucking into them right behind the pectoral fin, and 143 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: like removing the liver and then eating the liver from 144 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: the gray white. But when it comes to orcas and 145 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: their diets, it gets intriguingly complicated. So orcas, as Carbadine describes, quote, 146 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: have a bewildering array of ecologically distinct forms called ecotypes, 147 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: And while they're generally considered to be all of the 148 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: same species again Orcanis Orca, you might think of them 149 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: as genetically distinct ORCA cultures. 150 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: This makes sense given all of the different things I 151 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: was reading about, sort of subgroups of orcas specializing in 152 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: different types of prey, like, for example, while the orcas 153 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: are one of the main predators of grey whales, not 154 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: all orcas would show any interest in a grey whale. 155 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: That's right, and gets even crazy when you look at 156 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: again genetically distinct ORCA groups, these echotypes and then each 157 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: you may have two different ecotypes inhabiting the same waters, 158 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: but they don't associate with each other. Each ecotype has 159 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: its own behaviors, its own diet, its own social structure, 160 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: its own vocal signatures, its own distribution patterns. So it 161 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: gets really fascinating when you look at all the different examples. 162 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to go into all the different 163 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: ecotypes here, but of note, for our discussion of the 164 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: North Pacific, there are two distinct ecotypes to consider. There's 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: the resident or fish eating killer whale, and then there's 166 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: biggs killer whale also known as transient killer whales, but 167 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: I think biggs killer whale is the preferred title. 168 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: Okay, So I'd imagine it's some of those resident or 169 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: fish eating killer whales that you know, gray whales might 170 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: go right by them and they're not going to mess 171 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: with them. They're not going to be interested. 172 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, as the name implies, members of the fish eating 173 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: acotype eat mostly fish and they usually ignore marine mammals. 174 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: Bigs killer whales though, Yeah, these are the true whale killers, 175 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. They live in smaller groups, usually just 176 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: two to six. The groupings for other varieties of like 177 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: fish eating orca tend to be larger. They're seemingly the 178 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: big s whales. Carbondine rites are not interested in eating 179 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: fish at all, though, I have to say in his 180 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: book there is a photo of one that's labeled as 181 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: a is a big skiller whale that's playing with the 182 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: salmon in its mouth. So, I don't know, Maybe it's 183 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: just playing with the salmon, maybe it's eating it a 184 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know. Part of being such an 185 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: intelligent apex predator is killer whales have been observed to 186 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: play with their food a bit the big skiller whale 187 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: occasionally kill birds, but yes, as the description implies, they 188 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: mostly hunt whales, pinnipeds, and sea otters. Now they are transient, 189 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: they're kind of erratic, apparently in their movements. I couldn't 190 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: help but think of it as kind of like this 191 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: roving band of bikers. Though I'm over anthromorphizing here. And 192 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that one of the reasons that 193 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: Biggs is preferred over the name transient is because apparently 194 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: transient can be a little misleading, so that their movements 195 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: are erratic, but they do follow the movements of their 196 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: prese species, so they're not just They're not just completely random. 197 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: I guess we might compare them to the bank robbers 198 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: in what is it, Point Break, the mass bank rappers 199 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: in the Surfing movie. They're kind of like the Nixon masks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 200 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're they may seem chaotic, but they have 201 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: a code and there there are certain patterns they're following. 202 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: Uh huh. Now I mentioned the genetic differences carbon in 203 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: mentions that the bigs Orcas are actually the most genetically 204 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: divergent out of all these ecotypes, and there are actually 205 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: strong arguments to be made for speciation. Here he writes 206 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: that DNA evidence has shown it bigs killer whales began 207 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: diverging some seven hundred thousand to seven hundred and fifty 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. So again the orca. It seems difficult 209 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: to overstress how important a role they play in the 210 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: shape of modern whales, the way that these whales have survived, 211 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: because one of the things you have to survive in 212 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: the world as a whale, or basically any organism that's 213 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: going to be in the same waters as the killer whale, 214 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: you have to be able to survive the killer whale. 215 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: And it's a heck of a thing to have to survive. 216 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: Because I just kept thinking reading about them that it's 217 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: like they seem like the absolute perfect oceanic predator. You know, 218 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: like they are they're robust, they're fast, they're intelligent, they're social. 219 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: You know, you can compare them in some ways to 220 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: something like a great white shark. But great white sharks 221 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: are for the most part solitary, like they don't work together, 222 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: they lack the intellect of an Uh. The orcas are 223 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: just and then the orcas are also not. Not to 224 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: say that sharks are set in their ways. But but 225 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: like the orca have shown that they have a have 226 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: a real resiliency that they can they can change, they 227 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: can alter their uh you know, whatever happen if there 228 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: are changes in available food sources, they may shift in 229 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: what they're eating, that sort of thing. And so for 230 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: just a few examples of how this has affected the 231 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: the shape of modern whales, I was reading another book Whales, 232 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: Their Biology and Behavior by Hammond at All And apparently 233 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: their uh, their threat factors into the audible world of 234 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: the marine environment. So fish eating orca produce loud clicks 235 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: that in many cases their prey can't hear. This is 236 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: certainly it seems to be the case with salmon, for example, 237 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: and they use these clicks for echolocation. But the bigs 238 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: killer whale, well, they're they're feeding mostly or or exclusively 239 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: on mammals that are acoustically sensitive, and so bigs killer 240 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: whales are quieter, and they use what they refer to 241 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: in this book as a cryptic echolocation strategy that employs 242 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: fewer clicks and irregular timing of said clicks. 243 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: Oh, so it's harder to detect that you are being 244 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: clicked at. 245 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: Right right, and the threat of the big skiller whales 246 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: has led various whale species to adopt the use of 247 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: narrow band, high frequency clicks that orcas can't hear. So 248 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: pygmy sperm whales, for example, do this, though they sacrifice 249 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: signal range for stealth by making this change. Other whales, 250 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: like beaked whales, only use their echolocation at great depths 251 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: below where the orcas hunt, and there are also various 252 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: anti orc anti predator strategies that various whales use. I 253 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: think we'll end up discussing these in a bit, but basically, 254 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: like the orca posts such a threat, and such a 255 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: complex and intelligent threat, like every whale species on the 256 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: menu has had to adapt to that threat and come 257 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: up with tactics for survival. 258 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: Yes, though, I think, as we mentioned in the last episode, 259 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: one thing that's very important to stress is that for 260 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: most whale species we're talking about, there might be some 261 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: a couple of exceptions, such as like maybe some of 262 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: the minca whales, but for most billen whale species, it 263 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: is really only the young that are directly threatened by orcas. 264 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: Orcas rarely try to prey on healthy adults, and even 265 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: more rarely succeed in praying on healthy adults. 266 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, you will find some accounts. I think 267 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: there was a real I was just reading this before 268 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: we came in here. There was an account of what 269 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: seemed to be a pack of orcas attacking an adult 270 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: blue whale. But yes, for the most part, this goes 271 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: for I mean most predator species. What are predators going after. 272 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: They're going after the hardest thing possible to kill. No, 273 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: there's a there's a various economic facts that have to 274 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: be taken into account. They want to go after the 275 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: easiest thing to get that will give them that nutrient payoff. 276 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: And in the case of whales, yeah, the cavs are 277 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: the best bet. They're smaller, they're weaker. If they can 278 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: separate them, if they can get to them, if they 279 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: can tip the scales in their favor, then that's what they're. 280 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: Going to go for. A paper that I'm going to 281 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: talk about in a minute, it's an older bit of 282 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: research from Rice and Woolman published in the year nineteen 283 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: seventy one, that included a survey of the bodies of 284 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: three hundred and sixteen gray whales that I think were 285 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: off the coast of California, and it found that of 286 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: those whales, eighteen percent had scars from previous orca attacks. 287 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: And these would have been orca attacks. I guess that 288 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 2: the whales survived. That doesn't necessarily tell you how the 289 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: whales did not survive orca attacks. 290 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Oh, that's that's interesting. Carwodine rights that possibly every single 291 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: gray whale alive has possibly been I think the way 292 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: word it was in the mouth of a killer whale 293 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: at one point or another. And certainly you see you 294 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: see a lot of these rake like scars left by 295 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: orca teeth on their bodies. They're apparently attacked by the 296 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: orca at a greater rate than any other whale species, 297 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: and as far as the young go. According to Carbodine, 298 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: orca quote probably take up to thirty five percent of 299 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: the gray whale calf population annually. 300 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 2: And most of those attacks, it is believed, occur on 301 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: the migratory corridor. And we'll talk more about grey whale 302 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: migrations in a little bit or possibly in the next 303 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: episode if the series goes to three parts. But yeah, 304 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 2: there's like a migratory corridor for the for the Eastern 305 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: Pacific gray whale where they go back and forth between 306 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: their northern feeding grounds up in the Arctic regions in 307 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: the summertime, and then in the colder months they go 308 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: south to areas like Baja California where they have their 309 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: breeding grounds, their calving grounds, and these lagoons. And it's 310 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 2: during the travel back and forth that a lot of 311 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: these attacks are going to occur. 312 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, and we'll get into the specifics of 313 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 1: that in a bit. But but again, the orcas are 314 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: are cunning, and they're going to choose the exact right time, 315 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: the exact right place to attack these rather large prey animals. 316 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: But you know, briefly, you know again, why is this 317 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: migration taking place? Well, it's because when you have a 318 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: threat like the orca as a mother whale, you can't 319 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: just give birth anywhere. You have to go where the 320 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: orcas cannot go or won't go, and that's where these 321 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: lagoons come into play. Like the Ojo de Leebre lagoon 322 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: that I went to near Guerrero Negro in in Baja California, Mexico, 323 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: place that is shallow, too shallow to favor certain killer 324 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: whale hunting strategies, but also not so shallow that the 325 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: whales themselves cannot move around in the waters. Now that 326 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: being said, I happened across a paper this came out 327 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: just last year in October, and this was the title 328 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: of this paper was new peril for grey whale survival 329 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: question mark. Predatory orc has spotted in Baja Calvin Lagoon. 330 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: It's a situation where observers there had not seen orcas 331 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: venturing into the lagoon, but then there was a spotting 332 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: of them. And it doesn't sound like much came of this. 333 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like there was any real follow up 334 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: coverage that would indicate that the orcas came back and say, 335 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: killed a bunch of calves or anything. I guess it 336 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: was maybe more like a scouting mission, like maybe the 337 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: orca has come in. They kind of realize, okay, with 338 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: these this is not optimal for hunting, even though the 339 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: things we want to eat are here. And then they 340 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: move around and go back. But anyway, in this paper 341 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: that the author speaks with Stephen Schwartz, a primary researcher 342 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: with the Laguna sen Ignacio Ecosystem Science project down there, 343 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: and the way he describes that is, Okay, you have 344 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: the orc is, they're engaging in this they engage in 345 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: this kind of pack hunting behavior, but it's not two dimensional, 346 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: it's three dimensional. Especially when they're going up against dangerous 347 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: prey like the gray whale, something that can conceivably kill 348 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: them with a single blow of its tail. They need 349 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: to be able to employ all of their strategies. They 350 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: need to be able to you know, come at it 351 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: from below, from the sides, etc. And we'll get into 352 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: some of their tactics here in a bit, but basically 353 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: they can't do that in the lagoon environment. 354 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: Right, and as surface dwelling animals, it's not intuitive for 355 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: us to think about physical conflict in this way really, 356 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: you know, we're usually thinking about physical conflicts taking place 357 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: with something on the same level as us on a 358 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: place lane. But in this case, it would be something 359 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: more like you know, a space fight in like a 360 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: Star Wars movie where there's you know, there is multi 361 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: directional attack exactly. 362 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, the Orcas are cunning, they're intelligent. They 363 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: realize that this is not the battlefield where they will 364 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: have the advantage, and they know that if they they 365 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: waited out, there will come a time when the battlefield 366 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: does tip to their advantage. 367 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: Now, one thing we always try to do, at least 368 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: what we remember is you know, it's like when you're 369 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: approaching the subject of predator prey conflicts from the origin 370 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: point of the prey animal, Like we started off talking 371 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: about grey whales and then now we're talking about orcas. 372 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: That can tend to kind of make you want to, 373 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: even if you normally have some protections against this, to 374 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 2: unconsciously vilify the predator animal. You know, think like, oh, 375 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: the orcas are so bad because they're attacking the gray 376 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 2: whales we've been thinking about. But of course, you know, 377 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: we all the the orcas are are beautiful, wonderful animals 378 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: in their own way, and they're also just trying to 379 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 2: survive that this is just what their ecological niche is 380 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: their predators. 381 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We can't think think of it as 382 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: as the heroes versus villains and all of this, though 383 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: I know it's it's very tempting to do so, and 384 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: I found myself sort of fighting off that feeling, especially 385 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: when when observing the great whales. But even in that 386 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: that paper, that Los Angeles Times paper, and I want 387 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: to credit the author on that. Suzanne Rust is the 388 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: author in speaking with the Swartz like Swartz basically you know, 389 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: says like, look, you know, this is just this is 390 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: just how it is. Uh. You know, we're we're not 391 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: just looking out for the great whales here, We're also 392 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: looking out for the orca like they're there. It's part 393 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: of the natural cycle of things here. So we shouldn't Yeah, 394 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: we shouldn't fall into that line of thinking where oh no, 395 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: the the the the the orca, the orcas are the 396 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: enemy and the great whales are are the only heroes 397 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: of the the ecology story going on before us. That 398 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: being said, let's get into some of the dastardly ways 399 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: New York has attacked gray whales and other whale species. 400 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: Not dastardly except in the sense that every organism is 401 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: I guess dastardly, and it's in its quest for survival. 402 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: But they're solving problems. They're solving problems. 403 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: Okay. So I wanted to return to a paper that 404 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: I brought up with a more narrow focus in the 405 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: previous episode, and it was a paper called Fight or 406 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: Flight Anti Predator Strategies of baleen Whales, published in The 407 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 2: Mammal Review in the year two thousand and eight by 408 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: John K. B. Ford and Randall R. Reeves. Now, you 409 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: might remember in the last episode the context was I 410 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 2: was consulting this paper to explore whether the barnacle incrustations 411 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 2: on gray whales should be thought of purely as either 412 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: a parasitic type of infestation where it's harming the whale, 413 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 2: or as a commensal infestation where you know, the arnicles 414 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: getting something out of it. It has a substrate that 415 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: brings it water flowing over it, so it can filter 416 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: feed and it gets protection from predators, but the whale 417 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: is not really affected one way or another. That would 418 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: be a commensal relationship or and this was the hypothesis 419 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 2: put forward in this paper, there is actually a mutual 420 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: benefit to the whales that are encrusted with barnacles, because 421 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: the thinking goes these encrustations with their hard calcium carbonate plates, 422 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 2: might actually serve as a kind of weapon or armor 423 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: on the outside of the whale when it is attacked 424 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: by orcas. And there's some evidence for thinking of it 425 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 2: that way, but it's not certain. 426 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: Right And I think you mentioned too that one possibility 427 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: is well, a predator might think twice about biting part 428 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: of a whale that's encrusted with these hard barnacles. 429 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 2: Or it might injure itself doing so. 430 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: Right though the quick additional quark effect. There is one 431 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: variety that excels in attacking sharks. And one of the 432 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: ways that apparently this ecotype is often identified is that 433 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: they'll it's it's rougher food to have to depend on, 434 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: and they'll often grind their teeth down, like basically to 435 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: the gum line of the Yeah, so they're not about 436 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: some of the killer killer whales in general not above 437 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: trading off dental health for a sustaining meal if they 438 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: have to. 439 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to be thinking about that all day. It's 440 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: just kind of gummy mouthed whales. But anyway, I wanted 441 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: to come back to this paper to more broadly explore 442 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: some of the ideas it puts forward about the way 443 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: is that that whales, like gray whales, that bileen whales, 444 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: have had their bodies and behavior shaped by predator pressures, 445 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: specifically pressure from orcas. And this paper was exploring the 446 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: different types of survival strategies for diferent species of billen 447 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: whales wind confronted with orcas, and the authors proposed grouping 448 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: them basically into two main classes. One class of whales 449 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: were the ones with flight strategies and the others were 450 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 2: fight strategies. The flight strategy is mainly practiced by whales 451 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: in the Baileinoftera genus, So this would include the common 452 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: minca whale, the Antarctic minca, the bruta swhale that's spelled 453 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: it looks like brides b ry dee, but I think 454 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 2: it's pronounced bruta, the say whale, the fin whale, and 455 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: the blue whale. And with all these strategies, their reaction 456 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 2: to a pod of orcas is basically just speedy retreat. 457 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: They make a B line out there. The direction doesn't 458 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: really seem to have any consistent relationship to the shoreline. 459 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: They just make a B line away at top speed, 460 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: usually speeds between twenty and forty kilometers an hour. And 461 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 2: these are speeds that orcas I believe can typically match 462 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 2: only for a short time. They usually can't or won't 463 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: keep up with this speed for a long time, so 464 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 2: they just fall back and don't catch them. 465 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: And a lot and we'll get into this, but a 466 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: lot of their tactics often revolve around sustained attacks. 467 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, However, with these flight species. They can usually get 468 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: away because they just swim fast and they get out 469 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: of there and the orcas don't keep up the chase. 470 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: But an interesting thing is that all these flight species 471 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: are just named. If they are overtaken by orcas, they 472 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: usually are not able to put up much resistance at 473 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: all and they just sort of like submit to death. 474 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: That might be overstating it, but they do not really 475 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 2: have much close fighting capacity. On the other hand, you've 476 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 2: got the fight strategy, and this has been observed in 477 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 2: other billen whales, such as the Southern right whale, the 478 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 2: North Atlantic right whale, the bowhead, the humpback, and the 479 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: gray whale, the ones we're focusing on in this series, 480 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 2: and they say The authors here also say that the 481 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: North Pacific right whale probably fits in this group two, 482 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: but there haven't been enough documented cases of their encounters 483 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: with orcas to say for sure. But the fight group 484 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: encompasses a more diverse set of tactics basically everything except 485 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: for high speed one directional swimming away. So what do 486 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 2: the fight strategies include? One, Rob, I think you alluded 487 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: to this a little bit earlier, but we can get 488 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: into more detail now. One is group formations when in 489 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 2: sufficient numbers. Some fight strategy. Whales respond to orca harassment 490 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: by grouping together to form defensive formations, for example, by 491 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: placing calves in the center of a sort of shape 492 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: where they're encircled by adults. One example the authors give 493 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: is something called the rosette, which is a circular formation 494 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 2: with the heads of the adults will make a sort 495 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: of flower pedal shape, and they will put their heads 496 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: in the middle around the calf and then have their 497 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: tail flukes pointing out, which if you have seen the 498 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: mighty slap of a grey whale's tail fluke, or not 499 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: just grey whale, any of these, you know, like a 500 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: humpback's tail fluke, you can imagine why that might be 501 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 2: threatening to an approaching orca. And an important thing to 502 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: point out is that this type of thing, these group formations, 503 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: are not only observed in the balen whales we're talking 504 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: about in this study. Some toothed whales, for example, sperm 505 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: whales have been observed to do something similar when harassed 506 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: by orcas. Of course, sperm whales are predators, but they 507 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: tend to prey on things like, you know, squids and stuff, 508 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: and their calves are also sometimes attacked by orcas. 509 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen this defensive formation that I guess we 510 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: could kind of compare to like circling the wagons, but 511 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: I've seen it referred to as the Marguerite formation in 512 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: sperm whales, and it's something that sadly, whalers would sometimes 513 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: take advantage of. They realized that if you had an 514 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: injured whale, it would like basically draw in this defensive 515 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: formation of additional whales which you could then also kill. 516 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and this fact of some whales coming to 517 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: the aid of other whales is interesting, Like, it's kind 518 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: of heartwarming. The author has mentioned southern right whales and 519 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: humpbacks having been observed to join in with single whales 520 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: or groups that are under attack by orcas, almost to 521 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: help provide group defense. Now, we alluded to this a 522 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: minute ago with the tail flukes pointing out outward, but 523 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: some of the fight strategies of these whales are just 524 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: physical blows. Like billen whales will sometimes lash out and 525 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: strike at orcas, most often with either pectoral flippers or 526 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: with the flukes with the tail. And the authors also 527 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: say that quote right whales and humpback whales occasionally also 528 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: lunge or swing their heads at attackers. So it seems 529 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: like throughout this paper, the humpbacks really seem like the 530 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: fightiest of the fight whales, Like they will really put 531 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: up a fight. But all of these whales are powerful 532 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: and can swing a floor or a flipper. 533 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. I guess that the gray whales 534 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: are maybe not engaging and head based combat so much 535 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: because their heads are just generally smaller compared to something 536 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: like a humpback whales head. But they're certainly they certainly 537 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: use the flippers and the flukes. In fact, one of 538 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: the things in Baja California that the guides mentioned, they're like, 539 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: do not, under any circumstances attempt to touch flippers or flukes, 540 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: because those are the weapons of the whale. You know, 541 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: the only thing you're touching, if the whale is curious 542 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: in permitting it, is you're touching basically the head region. 543 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: Yes, and while all these fight whales can put up 544 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: a fight, like they can deliver a mighty smack with 545 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: the with the tails or with the flippers, it seems 546 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: consistent that the gray whales are thought of as some 547 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: of the least inclined to deliver a blow in defense 548 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: and instead practice some other interesting defensive strategies more often. Yes, 549 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 2: this is fascinating, So let's get to what some of 550 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: these other strategies the authors. One of them is environmental refuge. 551 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: The authors right that all of the fight strategy whales 552 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: except perhaps humpbacks, try to seek refuge in the physical 553 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: environment for defense, and gray whales are singled out as 554 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: the best example of this of refuge seeking. When threatened, 555 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: they head for shallow waters. That's kind of interesting. If 556 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 2: you don't read any further, you might really wonder why 557 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: that would be. That would I would almost imagine like, oh, 558 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: a whale, wouldn't a whale feel kind of cornered in shallow waters? 559 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: But it turns out this is helpful for a number 560 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: of reasons. One, shallow waters provide potential hiding places, such 561 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: as in celt beds like forests of seaweed, or in 562 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: breaking surf, and in both of these cases, these these 563 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: are kind of like blinds for whales. It's a place 564 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: where it's harder for orcas to locate and detect them. 565 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: This also makes sense this distinction when you think about, say, 566 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: like the humpback whale is a whale that its range 567 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: includes you know, far open waters. But again, as we've 568 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: discussed with the gray whale, these are whales that generally 569 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: don't stray too far from the shoreline from the edge 570 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: of the continent, so like this is there they really 571 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: have a home turf advantage here. 572 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: Yes, and another thing the authors point out is that 573 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: the gray whales can make themselves even more invisible when 574 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: hiding in shallow water through a breathing technique known as snorkeling, 575 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 2: where essentially they expose as little of their body as 576 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: possible above the surface to breathe. Basically only the blowholes 577 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: are exposed. Now, why would this make them harder to find? 578 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: The researchers suggest it may be because this is somehow 579 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: a quieter way to breathe than their normal breathing movements, 580 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 2: and orcas hunt in part by sound. But this part 581 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: is really important. In addition to providing hiding places like 582 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: kelp forests and breaking surf, shallow water also protects gray 583 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: whales by depriving orcas of room to stage their preferred attacks. 584 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: So the predators in shallow water simply cannot maneuver the 585 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: way they need to to do the attacks. They want, 586 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: and these attacks would include like ramming the calves to 587 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: try to separate them from adults. 588 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's worth noting here that that orcas are 589 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: certainly susceptible to beaching now, you know. Granted, there are 590 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: of course famous examples of self beaching attacks by orcas 591 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: against against creatures, you know, just on the shore. Though this, 592 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: it's worth noting, seems to be a learned tactic and 593 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: not an instinctual one. So it takes even these these 594 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: orca groups that practice self beaching as a hunting tactic, 595 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: it takes them a long time to learn it and 596 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: do it properly. 597 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 2: Yes, and it seems, at least certainly for the kinds 598 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: of orcas that prey on whales, the shallows are just 599 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: not where they're comfortable. That it is not where they 600 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 2: have room to make the moves that they need to make, 601 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: usually to get a calf away from its mother and 602 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: kill it right right. So for this reason, the authors 603 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 2: say that in fact, orca's usually abandon an attack if 604 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 2: the prey is able to make it to the shallows. 605 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: So the grey whale gets into the shallows. The orcas, 606 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: it's not like they usually will keep trying and fail. 607 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: They're not even going to follow them there, they just 608 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: give up. Now, I think another point that we might 609 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: want to remember is that it seems to me a 610 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: retreat to the shallows is not without risks. You might think, well, 611 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: why would that involve risks? But the authors here mentioned 612 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: quote fight species that retreat into shallow water would need 613 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: good maneuverability to negotiate obstacles and prevent accidental stranding. So, 614 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: I mean, stranding is a real threat when you're a whale, 615 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: and a whale that goes into the shallows to hide, 616 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 2: I think that could be thought of as somewhat analogous, 617 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: not completely, but somewhat analogous to a land animal trying 618 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 2: to hide from a predator by going into the surf 619 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: in the ocean, like there is a chance you get 620 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 2: washed out and drowned. 621 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Now, it does seem though the grays are 622 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: quite good at navigating the shallows. That seems to be 623 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: the case based on the materials we've been looking at here. 624 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: But again just going back to my observation of them 625 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: in Mexico, the lagoon was again reasonably shallow, you know, 626 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: deep enough that the whales can maneuver easily in there 627 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: and even move around at some rather intense speeds. Because 628 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: there again there was the calving, there was the there 629 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: are mothers and babies, but there was also mating going on, 630 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: and the mating gets a lot more frenzied. They'll do 631 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: this thing too. That's called, I think sometimes referred to 632 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: as freight training. I think it's the term where they're 633 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: like just a group of whales will just start zooming 634 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: through the water. And their speeds to me were quite impressive, 635 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: but still like this is a lagoon, the tides coming 636 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: in and out. There were some fairly drastic changes based 637 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: on the tides. So yeah, it seemed to me like 638 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: that the grays really knew what they were doing. It 639 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: makes sense again because the gray whales are a species 640 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: of whale that don't ever really go too far from 641 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: the shore and the grand scheme of things, and they're there. 642 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: The way they feed is to go down to the bottom, 643 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: so they're they're tied to kind of like the edges, 644 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: the hard and soft edges of their oceanic environment. 645 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 2: All right, So next thing, we've talked about group formations, 646 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 2: physical blows, environmental refuge. The next thing I want to 647 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: mention is defensive maneuvers, so gray whales are less inclined 648 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: to physically fight by striking with with flukes or flippers, 649 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 2: though they will certainly do that in cases when defending calves. 650 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 2: They're just do it less than other species such as 651 00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: like humpback whales, but the author's right quote. Instead, they 652 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: often roll at the surface so that their dorsal surface 653 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 2: rather than their ventral surface, meaning the back instead of 654 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 2: the belly, is exposed to attack from below. Killer whales 655 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: often debilitate and kill bileene whales by ramming forcefully and 656 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: repeatedly into the ventral sides of their prey. Thus, rolling 657 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: upside down may protect the vulnerable underside from attack. And 658 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 2: I've actually watched some documentary footage of exactly this and 659 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 2: the next thing I'm about to mention happening when orcas 660 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 2: are swimming up on a gray whale adult that she 661 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: will just roll back and expose her belly up above 662 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: the water and have her back down below. I guess 663 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: the back is much more protected from these striking attacks 664 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: by the orcas. 665 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: Again just pure observation on my part, but some of 666 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: the whales that would come up to the boat would 667 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: do this, they would roll under their backs, and I 668 00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: didn't think about it at a time because at the 669 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: time it's like kind of like big dog. It's almost 670 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: like they want me to scratch their belly in my arm. Again, 671 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,439 Speaker 1: we're like, you know, twenty feet long maybe, but but yeah, 672 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: like this is maybe they're kind of rehearsing behaviors as well. 673 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. This next thing is really interesting. This 674 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: is something gray whale mothers apparently do when escorting calves. 675 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 2: Not only do they roll over on their backs at 676 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: the surface of the water to keep the more vulnerable 677 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 2: ventral side or the belly up above the water line, 678 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 2: they will sometimes literally lift their calves out of the 679 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: water up on their bellies, placing them out of reach 680 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 2: of the orcas. So the orcas are trying to ram 681 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 2: the calf and injure it and get it away from 682 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: the mother, so the mother will flip her more protected 683 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 2: back underneath and get the baby up on like above 684 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 2: the water, on top of her. 685 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: Fascinating. Yeah, this reminds me again like one of the 686 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: behaviors you see from the babies eventually in the lagoon 687 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 1: is that they'll start when are strong enough to start breaching, 688 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: they start kind of like jumping out of the water, 689 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: not just sticking parts part of their head up, but 690 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: actually like jumping most of the way out of the water, 691 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: if not all the way out of the water. And 692 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: it's thought that this may also be rehearsals for defensive maneuvers, 693 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: as the mother and calf eventually move out of this 694 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: predected lagoon and into rather dangerous domains of the orcas. 695 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 2: Right, And so you could see how that could be 696 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 2: that kind of maneuvering practice could be useful in both 697 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 2: ways for these purely defensive maneuvers, where like the calf 698 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: is trying to get up on its mother's belly to 699 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 2: get away, or for actual attacks if they're trying to 700 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: slam down on the orca or something. 701 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, because these babies again, they're these are these are 702 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: these are big babies. 703 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 2: Now. One thing explored in this paper that caught my 704 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 2: attention is the relationship between these different uh fight versus 705 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: flight strategies and how that manifests as morphological differences differences 706 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 2: in the body shapes of these different types of whales. 707 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: So the author's right that flight whales the one that 708 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: just escape as fast as they can are. You might 709 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 2: not be surprised to learn more streamlined for fast movement, 710 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 2: with elongated forms, typically smaller flippers to reduce drag while swimming, 711 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: and what they call high aspect ratio flukes, which they 712 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: say this is quote a measure of surface area relative 713 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 2: to fluke length for propulsive efficiency and high speed. So 714 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 2: you can look up pictures of this if you want. 715 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: But these, these flight whales will tend to have just 716 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 2: less chunky looking flukes, whereas the fight whales have kind 717 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 2: of i don't know, more rounded, thicker flukes that just 718 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 2: have more surface area. 719 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: Well, looking at this illustration you provide, it's like if 720 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: you turn the fluke on its side and assume that 721 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: it is a mustache, you're more the closer you are 722 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: to a pencil thin mustache. Well, then yeah, that's going 723 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: to be your flight your fight those going to be 724 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: your bushier mustache. 725 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 2: That is a good comparison. Yeah, So, so flight whales 726 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 2: they're specializing for speed. Fight whales, on the other hand, 727 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 2: are not specialized for speed, but for maneuverability. And this 728 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 2: is important to think about. So it's not necessarily so 729 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 2: much for just being able to like hit and deliver 730 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 2: a blow with the tail or the flipper, though that 731 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: is part of it, especially for some of these species, 732 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 2: but it's for maneuverability. And what does that mean. Essentially, 733 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: it means being able to turn on a dime. The 734 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 2: fight whales have larger and longer flippers and larger fluke 735 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 2: surfaces relative to their body size, and what this allows 736 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 2: them to do is turn quickly in tight spaces and 737 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: change which direction they're facing, even if they don't have 738 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 2: any forward momentum, so they can kind of like turn 739 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 2: quickly at a near standstill. And I was trying to 740 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 2: think about a good analogy here. It seems like the 741 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 2: difference would be between like the turning movement capabilities of 742 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 2: an airplane versus a helicopter, or your fight whales are 743 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 2: going to be more like a helicopter and your flight 744 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 2: whales are going to be more like an airplane. 745 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a a's a solid comparison. 746 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 2: Of course, being able to turn around quickly is a 747 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 2: is a clear advantage if you are trying to defend 748 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 2: yourself or especially to defend your young against against killer whales, 749 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 2: because you need to be able to orient your body 750 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: so that the more defensible part of it, or the 751 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: threatening part of it is facing the nearest killer whale quickly. 752 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 2: And this also allows whales such as gray whales to 753 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,760 Speaker 2: do that like rolling at the surface. 754 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: And again we might think like where does this give 755 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: the whale the biggest advantage? Again, it comes down to 756 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: shallower waters where they can turn on a dime, but 757 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,280 Speaker 1: the killer whales cannot employ their three D hunting tactics. 758 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how far we should go 759 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: with the helicopter versus airplane, but it's like it's one 760 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: thing to imagine say fighter jet versus attack helicopter, just 761 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, out in the open sky, but now imagine 762 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: that that imagine combat going down like in a city scape. 763 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 2: In a tunnel or something. Yeah. I've got one last 764 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 2: thing from this paper I want to add, which I 765 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 2: think should give a little bit of emotional payoff to 766 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,760 Speaker 2: learning all this stuff about the anti predator strategies of whales, 767 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 2: and that is that, though, of course, you know, the 768 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 2: both the predator and the prey animal, it's not like 769 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 2: we begrudge either one. They both have a right to 770 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 2: live and the predators do need to hunt in order 771 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,919 Speaker 2: to survive. But it turns out most of the time 772 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 2: these anti predator strategies are successful, Like in most of 773 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 2: these encounters between orcas and gray whales, the orcas are 774 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 2: not successful in killing one of the whales, not just 775 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,399 Speaker 2: grey whales, but all of the whales I think talked 776 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 2: about in this paper. It's just that the anti predator 777 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 2: strategies are pretty effective. The flight whales they swim fast 778 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 2: and they usually get away, and the fight whales are 779 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 2: usually able to repel or avoid an orca attack. 780 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Basically, it's like whatever is necessary to price yourself 781 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: out of being eaten? Can you make yourself just too 782 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: costly of a of a prey h target for the 783 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: predator and uh and yeah, you just have to sort 784 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: of cross that line. And also always thinking about this, 785 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: it always reminds me of that part in Butch Casting 786 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: and the Sundance Kit about you know, would you make 787 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: that jump if you didn't have to? 788 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 789 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 1: There's only so much that the predator is going to 790 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: do because ultimately there are there are other whales in 791 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: the sea. Yeah, all right, Well, on that note, we're 792 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and close it up for this episode. 793 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: We'll be back though in one final episode on Gray 794 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: Whales and also essentially on Orcas as well. Just a 795 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind as a science 796 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: podcast with core episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 797 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail episodes, on Wednesdays we do 798 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact episode, and on 799 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: Fridays we set aside most serious concerns and just talk 800 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. I forgot 801 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: the name of it mentioned the name of the of the 802 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: Friday episodes. 803 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 804 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 805 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 806 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 807 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 808 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 2: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 809 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 810 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.